The US "Christian Right" - bad company for Israel supporters? [Archive]

ibrodsky

06-04-2002, 03:15 AM

Actually, these Christians, who are quite numerous, would be better called "Christian conservatives." The media likes to label people as "right wing" because they have made that term synonymous with intolerance and backwardness.

The writer asks at the end if these Christians would still support Israel if/when Israel lets the Palestinians create their own state on the West Bank. But in fact, Christian support for Israel began to take shape during the Oslo peace process, when Israel seemed on track to do just that.

The writer is also appalled that some Christian right leaders would like Israel to annex the West Bank. This is no more crazy than annexing the Golan Heights. Israel, at its discretion, had reserved the West Bank as part of a Palestinian state resulting from a negotiated settlement. But the Palestinians have earned a one-way ticket to Jordan, and trying to draw a parallel between Nazi Germany and Israel is just more blather -- the majority of Palestinians support terrorist attacks against Jews. Israel captured the WB and Gaza from Arab aggressors, and if they won't stop killing Israeli children they can either live permanently under Israeli rule or leave.

There is another somewhat ulterior motive for Christian support for Israel. Christians know that the holy sites of all religions are respected by Israel. They also know that Palestinians have a history of destroying some Jewish holy sites, which are also important to Christians, and denying the existence of others.

The fact that Muslims destroyed synagogues and built mosques on top of them is quite obvious, and no doubt many Christians worry about the fate of Christian holy sites in a Palestinian "Islamic state" -- the goal of terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad who are now being invited to join Arafat's check-your-dagger-at-the-door "cabinet."

Vic

06-04-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Please correct me if I?m wrong but wasn?t it Christians that marched 6,000,000 =/- Jews into gas chambers?
A complicated story, in fact. The Nazis never defined themselves as religious Christians, afaik. Parts of the Christian establishment were one of the things they cracked down on quite brutally after they came to power in Germany. On the other hand there were no mass protests against the extermination of the Jews either, the silence of Vatican is just the most prominent case. Yet again, a considerable amount of Jews who survived the Holocaust in Western Europe were assisted by religious Christians.

L@mplighterM

06-04-2002, 08:03 PM

It would be extremely difficult to separate the religious Christians from the non-religious Christians. Could there in fact be such an animal as a non-religious Christian? Whom would you consider a non-religious Christians vic?

I?m an atheist so does that make me a non-religious Christian?

Talk is cheap and I?ve sure read about a lot of talk coming from various Christian organizations in Germany during Hitler?s reign. Admittedly some Christians did help the Jews in Europe during the war years.

In 1934 Michael von Faulhaber, the Archbishop of Munich, published Judenum, Christentum, Germanentum, that defended the principles of racial tolerance and humanity and called for the people of Germany to respect the Jewish religion. However, Faulhaber, and other Catholic bishops, made no open protest against the atrocities being committed against the Jews in Germany.
Link:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERchristianity.htm

Isn?t the same statement pretty much true today?

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Martin Niemöller

I firmly believe that the Christians came for Martin as they did for the Jews. Attend church on Sunday and kill Jews on Monday.

Vic

06-04-2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It would be extremely difficult to separate the religious Christians from the non-religious Christians. Could there in fact be such an animal as a non-religious Christian? Whom would you consider a non-religious Christians vic?
You are right, the expression lacks precision. What I meant was not just someone who has been baptized, but rather people actively involved in religious life one way or other.

Faulhaber acted dishonourably, that's true, and there are more than enough of others of the same kind. I do however like precision on historic details, and one of the things I have pointed out was that Christianity wasn't much of a trend among the Nazis. In the early phases of their existence they actually tried to (re-)introduce pagan cults. Martin Niemoeller, whom you quote, was a Protestant pastor, who narrowly survived a concentration camp in the Nazi years.

The point is, the danger doesn't emanate from any specific purely religious group (i.e. a group without a political program as well) today, and it hasn't been the case in Niemoeller's time. It is remarkable that he writes of "them", although the political scene in pre-Nazi Germany was much clearer defined than the terrorist groups are now. It would be nice if one could pin down the source of danger on such a group, make it easily recognizable, but life isn't that simple, and it never has been.

Congratulations for passing the 1000-post mark, btw. ;)

Vic

06-05-2002, 04:39 AM

Well, my memory...
The first line in Niemoeller's poem runs "When the Nazis came for the communists" in the original. Funny, the English translation sounds more "abstract" than the German text.
http://www.jasongeo.com/gdh/faq/html/aword.html

ibrodsky

06-05-2002, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Anyone that believes that the Catholic Church past or present was/is supportive of Israel or Jews is a dreamer. Do a search on google.com or some other search engine and read some of the statements issued by the Vatican.

From my investigation I?ve found very little true support from the Christian Community in the US or around the world. Am I wrong?

You are completely ignoring the fact that there are different types of Christians. I don't know anyone who thinks the Catholic Church supports Israel. There is a very pronounced left-wing, anti-Israel stream among Catholics.

However, evangelical Christians are very pro-Israel and I believe the vast majority are totally sincere. It's very simple: they believe in the Jewish bible and they have a very strong sense of right versus wrong. Christians like Alan Keyes are more supportive of Israel than many Jews!

Yes, I think you are being cynical. We don't have many friends, so we shouldn't dismiss the friends we do have. Fortunately, many of them feel very strongly and are willing to overlook such comments. Be grateful.

Mediocrates

06-05-2002, 07:24 AM

I don't know anyone who thinks the Catholic Church supports Israel. There is a very pronounced left-wing, anti-Israel stream among Catholics.

I know lots of Catholics and lapsed Catholics who support Israel. They come an American history where the local factory would have a sign on the door that read "No Jews, No Dogs, No Irish". I don't think they care much what Rome has to say about it. Hell, I went to school with a bunch of freewheeling Vincentians who were sympathetic to Jews and to Israel. I agree though that the 'official positions' are different from that -even to the point of calling the country "The land now known as Israel".

Mediocrates

06-05-2002, 07:28 AM

http://www.vincentian.org/newsletter/archive/0112/provincial.html

Here are the first two paragraphs:

From the Provincial
Accepting the Gift of Justice

I am writing this on Monday, December 3, 2001; a few days ago I heard along with most other Americans the news from Israel of bombings and more acts of terror. I don’t know how one weighs or measures hatred but whatever units are used, the amount of it in the world is massive. The results don’t have to be measured–they are broken bodies, broken hearts, broken lives, broken dreams.

Years ago I read–I don’t remember where–someone’s self-description saying "there is no evil of which I am not capable." In reading those words I knew that what the writer had said of himself I could certainly repeat to myself. Having written that, I have to acknowledge that it is extraordinarily difficult for me to plumb the depths of a hatred that can create such devastation in the lives of other human beings. I know, as anyone does, that the hatred is not drawn from some special kind of Islamic well–a few moments spent reflecting on Belfast or Dachau quickly affirms that the capability for that kind of hatred is universal.

L@mplighterM

06-05-2002, 08:13 AM

I decided post 7 wasn't helpful to the cause, so I removed it.

elke

06-08-2002, 04:10 PM

These guys are not US Christians, but interesting....

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1022691096582

cerulean

06-08-2002, 10:59 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/09/national/09GROU.html

redcake

06-12-2002, 04:38 PM

Let's not forget that the Christian right community has become a lot more exposed, and educated over the last decade. More and more we're starting to see Christians that embrace Judiac history, with a strange fondness for Jews. Some celebrate passover (calling it "resurection day") and a lot of the Christian support for Israel is incredibly bold. The Christian communitys are slowly changing with the times, and becoming more hip (Television isn't nearly as demonized for one example). I'm sure a lot of it's over compensation and some of the support for Israel might not be the most sincere.... but I've heard some of the strongest most inspiring backing of Israel from Christians, and it's rather inspiring.

Vic

06-13-2002, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by redcake
Let's not forget that the Christian right community has become a lot more exposed, and educated over the last decade. More and more we're starting to see Christians that embrace Judiac history, with a strange fondness for Jews. Some celebrate passover (calling it "resurection day") and a lot of the Christian support for Israel is incredibly bold. The Christian communitys are slowly changing with the times, and becoming more hip (Television isn't nearly as demonized for one example). I'm sure a lot of it's over compensation and some of the support for Israel might not be the most sincere.... but I've heard some of the strongest most inspiring backing of Israel from Christians, and it's rather inspiring.
Do you mean the so-called "Messianic Judaism"?
I remember an article on evolving religions ( http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/02/lester.htm ), but I am not sure it can fall under the category.

redcake

06-13-2002, 08:06 AM

Well there are a lot of creepy variations in the Christians-who-love-Jews-all-over-again factions but
ya know what can you do?

Mediocrates

06-13-2002, 08:19 AM

Jews for Jesus? Well they have an enormous problem making aliyah because no rabbis will sign off on it. Are they generally supportive of Israel? I don't know - I would say that they are supportive of Jews in the Holy Land. Are they political? Again, I don't know if you can make any general statements about that.

raven

06-13-2002, 11:33 AM

I think it is time for Jews to get educated about what so called "conservative or Far Right" Christians really believe and what the "end game" of their beliefs are. So few of us know what the basis for the support for Israel really is.

This is a short version of the beliefs. Israel-- occupied by Jews is necessary for their G-d Storyline to be completed. Simplifying this...Jews have to be in Israel at the END TIMES for Jesus to triumph and come back. Then we will ALL mend our ways, accept Jesus,...and all be with him in "heavon". More to this of course.

Then there are those Christians, Conservative and Moderate that have decided to "parse" this storyline a bit. They have given up on Missionizing to all of us..so therefore they have changed the DEFINITION of what a Jew is. A Jew to them NOW can be a Chrisitan/Jew ie. Messianic Jews etc. and that will be satisfactory enough to fulfil the peramaters of who is and who isnt a Jew and who needs to be in Israel for "Revelations" to work out they way they need it to. Israel has been quietly dealing with all manner of scams as these people have moved to Israel, with phony Messianic Jewish conversion certificates, obtained citizenship, and proceeded to missionize to their real religion. They are especially targeting new Russian Immigrants and Etheoian Jews. Those that havent had much of a chance to find out what their religion (Judiasm) was all about.

In addition to the Christian /Jews you have what is called REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY Christians of all kinds. It says in essense that Christians are the REAL Jews either because the comming of Jesus changed the "contract"...OR We Jews gave up the "title" -so to speak -because we havent behaved properly. (there are other reasons why we arent the "chosen" anymore and therefor have no right to Israel) IF you go quietly to many Christian Boards you will see them discussing what they really believe and how THEY are the authentic and real inheritors of Israel. This is NOT a fringe element..This is a substancial amount of people in the mainstream Christian World. There are all sorts of different levels and wrinkles in Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology has a "bad name" and so you will NOT see it presented with that title. Look for ANY Christian theology that ends up in other than Jews being the people that should be now or in the future in control of Israel.

Finally, there is support for Israel because they KNOW that Israel in Arabs hands cuts Christians out COMPLETELY. They need us there to babysit Israel until either-- as Replacement Jews they can get hold of power in Israel OR the End Times come and the Christian/Jews can take over.

Just take an hour a week and read Fundamentalist and Mainstream Christian websites and forums..for yourself. You might also check out Internet Missionary Sites. There are 500 different Missionary Organizations that are soley dedicated to Missionizing to Jews.

Mediocrates

06-13-2002, 12:03 PM

Could you give a start - a few pointers? Many of us, myself included have I guess a view of Apocalyptic Christianity as being a fringe element. How closely is that allied with the perennial effort of Baptists to convert us?

raven

06-13-2002, 12:13 PM

Hi: Do a search for Messianic Judiasm. Do a search for Replacement Theology. Another eye opener is to investigate Internet Missionizing.... Delphi has many Christian Forums. Dont post...just read...Look for any end game that has OTHER than Jews occupying Israel. Look for fairystories about who is and who isnt a person of the Ten Lost Tribes. (I forgot to add this--many Christians claim to be ancestors of the Ten Lost Tribes) THEY belong in Isreal..not us. OR they will JOIN us. This is a huge subject and a serious one that Jews just dont know about. Features of all of these "other than Jews" storylines can be reflected in various MAINSTREAM Christian groups as well as Fundamentalist Groups.

Watch for any group that keys on "Revelations". Thats the business of Israel being attacked by all the NATIONS and the AntiChrist Arising and a further War and Israel being almost destroyed and Jesus commin back..and ALLLLL of us accepting Jesus and going??? up...or down or wherever.

There was a Denver scam..in which a phony Rabbi gave phony converstion certificates to people that want to claim Judiasm, for themselves, claim Israeli Citizenship, move to Israel, reconvert and Missionize. Israel is in a sticky spot and so is keeping as quiet with this as possible. MANY are trying to do this.

Look up a group called-- Jews For Judiasm. This is a Baltimore Based Group that fights Messianic Jews and their dishonest depiction of who they are. They are in fact Fundamentalist Christians who self select the name Jew and demand that everyone accept their new definition.

So you have two subjects to investigate...Messianic Jews and Replacement Theology.

Med: Depending on which exact Baptist you are talking about...this this DEFINATELY tied to efforts to Missionize to us. There are all sorts of strains and levels that fall under the name "Baptist". Lot of em cross over into Replacement Theology. Jews For Jesus is a Baptist/Fundamentalist like Group.

Do NOT be flattered by Christians dressin up like Jews, holding Passovers,wearing Jewish Stars etc. These are mostly Replacement people in the end. They do these "faux" Jewish Celebrations and it is beginning to morph into claiming that THEY are doing the authentic Celebration and WE are NOT.

cerulean

06-13-2002, 12:27 PM

The "Left Behind" book series was very popular in the US. I think that gives an indication that apocalyptic ideas are mainstream. (I haven't read them, but from what I understand they are evangelical imaginative fiction works about "last days" scenarios.) There's also a belief that Jews will fall en masse for the anti-Christ.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-6306910-4339909

Who can forget Reagan's interior secretary James Watts who believed as many resources as possible should be used up before the imminent return of Jesus? Reagan was also a believer in some sort of apocalyptic scenario involving Armaggedeon from what I understand, and I would not be surprised if the current president is also.

I think this page is an indication of what Raven is talking about:

http://www.truthleftbehind.com/IsraelinProphecy.html

For good or bad, I think most Americans would not be able to give a comprehensive rundown of their particular church's belief on the subject, but there is no doubt there is a highly developed set of apocalyptic beliefs that involve Israel. But I would guess the average person who supports Israel is probably motivated more by justice and fair play (or at least I hope so).

As to what should be done practically, I think the main thing is education as to these potential agendas. From a pragmatic point of view, if money and resources and support are offered (without strings, of course), I'd be hard-pressed to say these should be rejected.

elke

06-13-2002, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by raven

Just take an hour a week and read Fundamentalist and Mainstream Christian websites and forums..for yourself. You might also check out Internet Missionary Sites. There are 500 different Missionary Organizations that are soley dedicated to Missionizing to Jews.

Spare me, please! ;)

I think you are right regarding why the Fundamentalist Christians support Israel. There are many that try to convert Jews any chance they get.

raven

06-13-2002, 05:04 PM

C: thank you for the information. Im going to investigate what you put up. Wish I could have written more clearly... Thank G-d for the internet...It can fill in what I left out.

I feel all alone out here asking Jews to please learn about what these very numerous amounts of peoples believe. We learn about everything else in the world..why not learn the true nature of who we are dealing with, what they believe, and what may be the price. There will be a price for the support of Israel. Yes we need the support...but what KIND of support is it?

Do look at the HolyLand Experience Themepark. This is run by a Messianic Jew...this one a convert. He leads his audience thru the Old Testament ...one liitle teeny change tho...even as it seems like a Jewish experience, it is set up to lead people to the conclusion that all that is in the Old Testament is merely a set up for the acceptance of Jesus and the New Testament. This is just one small example of Messianic Jews and what their own theology is. Most Jews are unaware of these groups and the Replacement groups...who would define us OUT of our own Religion. Pardon me..people..I think this is QUITE a problem.

Im asking all who are interested to read for themselves...thats all.

raven

06-13-2002, 05:13 PM

C: thanks for posting the link about his particular series...Now that I see this..Its WORSE than I thought.. .. Gee wiz.

I just got "conned" into reading a Novel that I thought was ONE thing, a novel about Israel and rebuilding the Temple by Orthadox Jews, and it turned out to be a "soft" support of Messianic Jews. The Othadox Rabbi in the book...admits that he SECRETLY believes and so do 'many other Rabbis" in Jesus.

This is an example of deceptive practices that these people are into. Jews For Judiasm has this type of information. Anything else you can pass along...Please do.

elke

06-13-2002, 05:15 PM

Sorry, Raven, I did not mean to be glib. I do think you are right: all those Jews for Jesus and such are a danger. The US support of the Afghan Mujahadeen => going on Taliban, is a classic example of problems arising out of "the lesser of two evils".

However, what alternative is there? Should Israel refuse all help from them? Can Israel afford that? IMHO, we simply must keep in mind our own interests and teach our children well. "Politics makes strange bedfellows".

raven

06-13-2002, 05:23 PM

Elke...thats ok..we definately have to accept support..but I want Jews to do it with knowledge of who really is supporting Israel and what the motives and the "end game" are. Thats all.

When you spend ..just a little time..not much..you will see that the support is very self serving and will eventually morph into something that we will NOT be able to handle.

Im aware of whats out there and I..just fell for a very astute "missionizing" effort when I got to the END of the book. Very sneeky. Very cultish in behavior.

Then there is the other problem. Very large...like C. says quite mainstream..Replacement Theology in all its forms. WOW. Thats all I can say. We have to learn just a little about this. It seeks to Replace Jews...thats the long and short of it.

elke

06-13-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by raven
Elke...thats ok..we definately have to accept support..but I want Jews to do it with knowledge of who really is supporting Israel and what the motives and the "end game" are. Thats all.

When you spend ..just a little time..not much..you will see that the support is very self serving and will eventually morph into something that we will NOT be able to handle.

Im aware of whats out there and I..just fell for a very astute "missionizing" effort when I got to the END of the book. Very sneeky. Very cultish in behavior.

Then there is the other problem. Very large...like C. says quite mainstream..Replacement Theology in all its forms. WOW. Thats all I can say. We have to learn just a little about this. It seeks to Replace Jews...thats the long and short of it.

I agree. We do need to know what we are dealing with, and not get lulled into complacency that these people have only our best interests at heart. However, we have successfully handled mass conversion efforts before, and we should be able to handle them again.

raven

06-13-2002, 07:08 PM

Vic: Thank you very much for posting the link to that Article. Im not thru reading this but Ive kept it and going to pass this along. Tremendous amount of introductory information here. Again thanks.

redcake

06-14-2002, 06:00 AM

There is still a rebirth of Christians without creepy backroom issues towards Jews that see the issues in Israel clearly, and with education that simply support the good fight. As I stated before, a lot of them are getting with the times, and moving past the blood libels with a new understanding of Judiasm in a way that doesn't threaten their own beliefs (or at least incorporates acceptance of Jews into their beliefs). This kind of support is crucial. This is what's intersting, not dwelling on the existance of the creepy anti-Jewish cult like factions of Christianity (which shouldn't be news to anyone here, but if it is then by all means you should read up and learn about these groups).

Mr. Pumps

06-14-2002, 07:10 AM

:confused: Does anyone know the relations between Mormons and Jewish people. I am guessing quit distant.

redcake

06-14-2002, 07:39 AM

There is a Bingham Young school in Israel go figure...but interestingly enough, as secular as Israel is, there are strange laws in the books about preaching Mormonism, at the mutual request of the Mormon's themselves. I'm sure I'm screwing this bit of info up, so someone here that knows better should correct me because I've forgotten the real scoop. I do know that Mormons tend to be heavy supporters of the PA, and that a lot of them travel there to work as missionaries. Oddly enough there are an abundance of Quakers working for the UNRWA in Palestinian villages like Jenin.

raven

06-14-2002, 02:54 PM

Redcake; My favorite word to describe these "groups"..creepy. Yes there are some, but not all that many, mainstream Christian Groups that support Israel...but so many more with so many creepy adjendas. Some that will put us in real jepardy some day. If WE arent who say we are, and they ARE the real Israel...well you can just imagine the implications.

Mormans believe that they are a lost tribe of Israel. There is no love lost. They cater to the Islamic World....The Mormons were caught at the practice of "converting" Jews AFTER they have died. This is an old story... quite a uproar about it when one family noticed that their relatives who had died in the Shoa were involuntarily converted to Mormonism. Have you ever??? They convert other groups to Mormonism after they have "shuffled off" also. Is THAT not creepy?

Vic

06-17-2002, 12:56 AM

Somewhat off-topic, but irresistible :D

http://jews-for-allah.org/
There is nothing more Jewish than being a Muslim
I'm not quite sure that this is not a hoax though. Apparently the site is maintained by a company called "Silly Host".

cerulean

06-17-2002, 01:01 AM

I did some research on this site some time ago. The same person who registered this site has registered a number of sites designed to convert people (I think the other ones were aimed at Christians). He is also active on Islamic message boards.

The tipoff that it was just another anti-Jewish/anti-Israel site, rather than a sincere site for Jews who had taken up Islam, were the anti-Israel screeds posted somewhere in the site's depths.

cerulean

06-17-2002, 03:47 PM

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61275-2002Jun16.html

UNITED NATIONS -- Conservative U.S. Christian organizations have joined forces with Islamic governments to halt the expansion of sexual and political protections and rights for gays, women and children at United Nations conferences.

The new alliance, which coalesced during the past year, has received a major boost from the Bush administration, which appointed antiabortion activists to key positions on U.S. delegations to U.N. conferences on global economic and social policy.

...

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:27 PM

UNITED NATIONS -- Conservative U.S. Christian organizations have joined forces with Islamic governments to halt the expansion of sexual and political protections and rights for gays, women and children at United Nations conferences.

The new alliance, which coalesced during the past year, has received a major boost from the Bush administration, which appointed antiabortion activists to key positions on U.S. delegations to U.N. conferences on global economic and social policy.

But it has been largely galvanized by conservative Christians who have set aside their doctrinal differences, cemented ties with the Vatican and cultivated fresh links with a powerful bloc of more than 50 moderate and hard-line Islamic governments, including Sudan, Libya, Iraq and Iran.

"We look at them as allies, not necessarily as friends," said Austin Ruse, founder and president of the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute, a New York-based organization that promotes conservative values at U.N. social conferences. "We have realized that without countries like Sudan, abortion would have been recognized as a universal human right in a U.N. document."

The alliance of conservative Islamic states and Christian organizations has placed the Bush administration in the awkward position of siding with some of its most reviled adversaries -- including Iraq and Iran -- in a cultural skirmish against its closest European allies, which broadly support expanding sexual and political rights.

U.S. and Iranian officials even huddled during coffee breaks at the U.N. summit on children in New York last month, according to U.N. diplomats.

But the partnership also has provided the administration an opportunity to demonstrate that it shares many social values with Islam at a time when the United States is being criticized in the Muslim world for its continued support of Israel and the nine-month-old war on terrorism. "We have tried to point out there are some areas of agreement between [us] and a lot of Islamic countries on these social issues," a U.S. official said.

"The main issue that brings us all together is defending the family values, the natural family," added Mokhtar Lamani, a Moroccan diplomat who represents the 53-nation Organization of Islamic Conferences at the United Nations. "The Republican administration is so clear in defending the family values."

Lamani said he was first approached by U.S. Christian non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, at a special session of the U.N. General Assembly on AIDS in New York in June 2001.

Liberal Western activists and governments, he said, had offended the religious and cultural sensitivities of Islamic countries by proposing that a final conference declaration include explicit references to the need to protect prostitutes, intravenous drug users and "men who have sex with men" from contracting AIDS.

"It was totally unacceptable for us," Lamani said. "The Vatican and so many NGOs came up to us saying this is exactly the same position we are defending."

The Islamic-Christian alliance claimed an important victory at the U.N. children's meeting last month.

The Bush administration led the coalition in blocking an effort by European and Latin American countries to include a reference in the final declaration to "reproductive health care services," a term the conservatives believed could be used to promote abortion.

The U.S. team included John Klink, a former adviser to the Vatican at previous U.N. conferences; Janice Crouse, a veteran antiabortion advocate at Concerned Women of America; and Paul J. Bonicelli of Patrick Henry College in Purcellville, Va., a Christian institution that requires its professors teach creationism.

The Christian groups and Islamic countries have been seeking to build on those gains at subsequent U.N. gatherings, pressing for greater restrictions on abortion at an annual meeting of the World Health Organization last month and later at a U.N. preparatory conference on sustainable development in Bali, Indonesia.

"The rest of the world saw a shift in the debate" at the children's summit, said Patrick Fagan of the Heritage Foundation, a Washington policy group. "It wasn't just pure defense. They are on the offensive here."

Some Western countries and liberal activists say they are alarmed by the influence of the Christian right at the United Nations, where more liberal women's rights organizations have held sway for the past decade.

"They are trying to undo some of the landmark agreements that were reached in the 1990s, particularly on women's rights and family planning," a U.N.-based European diplomat said. "The U.S. decision to come into the game on their side has completely changed the dynamics."

"This alliance shows the depths of perversity of the [U.S.] position," said Adrienne Germaine, president of the International Women's Health Coalition. "On the one hand we're presumably blaming these countries for unspeakable acts of terrorism, and at the same time we are allying ourselves with them in the oppression of women."

The World Policy Center, a Mormon group established in 1997 to promote family values through an alliance that includes conservative Christians, the Catholic Church and Islamic governments, is holding a conference next month at Brigham Young University School of Law. It will bring antiabortion advocates and legal critics of the United Nations together with more than 60 U.N. diplomats, including delegates from conservative Catholic and Islamic countries.

Ruse first outlined his strategy for maximizing the conservatives' leverage at the United Nations at a 1999 meeting in Geneva of the World Congress of Families, a gathering of advocates of conservative family values. It involves "lavish[ing] all our attention" on a coalition of 12 antiabortion countries that are willing to fight for their cause at U.N. sessions, he said. Religious leaders and politicians in the United States and in these select countries in the developing world should be persuaded "to encourage these governments to defend life and family at the United Nations."

He also boasted that his tactics were beginning to seize the initiative from advocates for the rights of children, women and gays. "Our team was in a tiny conference room leaning over the backs of diplomats, assisting with the drafting of the conference document," he said.

"We broke all the rules of U.N. lobbying, which forbids leafleting on the floor of a U.N. conference. We had our people fan out across the floor of the conference and we placed this letter in the hand of every delegate."

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61275-2002Jun16.html

looking forwards to your reactions...

Suecanrush

06-19-2002, 08:40 PM

The last line of the article states "Ultimately, if Christians can't love Israel as she is, they can not love her at all " (to paraphrase)
As a Christian, I say that is a great point, Christ taught us to love unconditionally. Some are Christians, but haven't quite learned that yet. It doesn't make them not Christians, just poor examples of God's character and Jesus' Love for all. Not trying to convert, just letting you know that in my experience, "right wing christians" are intolerant, closed minded and not understanding what our faith is really about. I guess I'm not a "mainstream" christian. But I don't think many "mainstream christians" study they Old or New Testament to gain enlightenment, only to confirm the traditions and errors that have been taught to them for generations. As a Sabbath keeper, and a believer of Christ's words that there are "neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female," etc., I understand that to be that God loves us all the same, and is wanting us to do the same. As a Christian, I support Israel because you are victims of almost daily terrorism, and I do feel a connection with the Jewish people, because of many similar beliefs, that most Christians no longer hold, calling them "Jewish beliefs, (such as the Sabbath and dietary laws). I have a love for the Jewish people that has no motive other that to love God's people.
Suecanrush

cerulean

06-20-2002, 12:04 AM

This AP article briefly covers some of the theological permutations:

http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20020617-55790.htm

Suecanrush

06-20-2002, 08:16 PM

Is your point with the Disraeli quote that one should not offer opinions for fear someone else will believe that they are wrong?

cerulean

06-20-2002, 08:43 PM

I'm copying the quote in case I change my sig again:

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. - Disraeli

Originally posted by Suecanrush
Is your point with the Disraeli quote that one should not offer opinions for fear someone else will believe that they are wrong?

No, not at all. My point in choosing that signature is that it's easier to be critical than constructive.

It's easy for me, at least, to fall into the trap of criticizing rather than doing something useful. Of course criticism is necessary too.

The signature also means it's easy to criticize someone for being wrong, but much harder to actually determine a correct course of action. It's okay to criticize, but that should not be the only thing done.

That's how I interpret the quote anyway. It's not directed at anyone besides myself.

(Just for historical context, a brief bio of Disraeli:
http://www.britannia.com/bios/disraeli.html )

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 07:28 AM

it's smarter to be lucky than it's lucky to be smart - pippin

ldsknight

06-22-2002, 08:19 PM

You need to recognize that the New Republic is by and large an organ of the Democratic Party and the left. They are trying preserve the linkage between Jews and the Democrats and the left.

I consider myself a conservative Christian. I recognize their are some benighted alleged Christians who are less than noble in their conduct and opinions towards Jews and Israel. Those who truly understand our faith recognize the Jews have a special place in God's heart and that the Jews are still his covenant children and will ultimately prevail.

So I say welcome as allies. We have access to the President that is not available to the left. We that support Isreal today will support Israel tomorrow.

Shalom,

elke

06-23-2002, 07:38 AM

Thank you, Kirk, for the clarification and your support. It is very much appreciated.

cerulean

06-23-2002, 05:48 PM

An article on current American thoughts and feelings about the likelihood of an imminent apocalypse.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,265345-1,00.html

Adversary2Arabs

06-24-2002, 06:08 PM

I agree with raven and elke. Christians by their own faith must try to convert every non-Christian they can. This is a MUST in the Baptist Church, and a very common thing for other churches.

elke

06-24-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I agree with raven and elke. Christians by their own faith must try to convert every non-Christian they can. This is a MUST in the Baptist Church, and a very common thing for other churches.

Actually, that's not completely accurate. I used to work for a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church. I had quite a bit of contact with Episcopal Priests and Bishops, and was very pleasantly surprised by their open-mindedness and utter absence of proselytizing. One of them was actually a professor of Jewish Studies at Harvard - Riddle me that! :) He tried to speak Hebrew with me, but I have to confess, mine was MUCH worse than his! :o

ldsknight

06-24-2002, 06:53 PM

I cannot speak for other Christian faiths, but as one my discern, I am member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. According to our doctrine, the proselyting of Jewish people will not be practiced as a rule at this time. That is not to say Jewish individuals may be baptized from time to time. As I previously stated, we believe the Jewish are still dear to the heart of God and the covenant still is in force. If one wishes further information they can contact the Jerusalem center for the straight scoop.

Shalom,

Kirk

cerulean

06-24-2002, 11:25 PM

http://www.towardtradition.org/

From http://www.towardtradition.org/about_us.asp :
"Toward Tradition is a national educational movement of Jews and Christians and other Americans seeking to advance the nation toward traditional, faith based, American principles of constitutional and limited government, the rule of law, representative democracy, free markets, a strong military, and a moral public culture."

Adversary2Arabs

06-25-2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by elke

Actually, that's not completely accurate. I used to work for a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church. I had quite a bit of contact with Episcopal Priests and Bishops, and was very pleasantly surprised by their open-mindedness and utter absence of proselytizing. One of them was actually a professor of Jewish Studies at Harvard - Riddle me that! :) He tried to speak Hebrew with me, but I have to confess, mine was MUCH worse than his! :o

Most Christians are like that. I attend a Catholic Highschool, unfortunately, and I know first hand from their religion class and a certain poster on the cafeteria wall that says," Go out and make believers of other nations" or something like that. Its part of their Bible. (It was a quote from their bible.)

ruby

07-03-2002, 06:21 PM

the xians who do not espouse conversion are the minority of xians.
i wouldn't trust them if it pertains to anything to do with the welfare of jewish people.

you have got to be as blind as a bat if you cannot see the danger & duplicity in the xian right. they are jew-haters to the core, despite their fake smiles & words. don't be naive.

Mr. Pumps

07-03-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by ldsknight
I cannot speak for other Christian faiths, but as one my discern, I am member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. According to our doctrine, the proselyting of Jewish people will not be practiced as a rule at this time. That is not to say Jewish individuals may be baptized from time to time. As I previously stated, we believe the Jewish are still dear to the heart of God and the covenant still is in force. If one wishes further information they can contact the Jerusalem center for the straight scoop.

Shalom,

Kirk

Are you a Mormon? I am sure the Church of the Latterday Saints are Mormons.

ldsknight

07-03-2002, 08:46 PM

I plead guilty.

JustPat

07-04-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by ruby
the xians who do not espouse conversion are the minority of xians.
i wouldn't trust them if it pertains to anything to do with the welfare of jewish people.

you have got to be as blind as a bat if you cannot see the danger & duplicity in the xian right. they are jew-haters to the core, despite their fake smiles & words. don't be naive. Ruby,
Sorry you have had such a negative experience with those who call themselves Christian. We who truly follow the Bible not only love the Jewish people, but feel inseparably linked to them in heritage and destiny. The true Christian is the best ally Israel could ever have. I am personally aware of thirty ministries that have continued to book tours to Israel in the face of the intifada so that they can show their support and put feet to their faith.

It's easy to bludgeon Christians because of those who claim to be Christian but live as anything but. It is those two-faced religious bigots who have perverted Christianity that are the threat, not those who are the real deal. According to Gallup, only 1/2% of the US population actually meet the biblical criteria for being labled Christian.

Like anything else, don't settle for imitations when only the real will do.

cerulean

07-05-2002, 09:35 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787706648

Former US secretary of state James Baker reportedly cursed Jews in a fit of anger at Jewish pressure on the first president George Bush a decade ago, saying Jews don't vote for the Republican Party.

But Gary Bauer, one of the Christian Right's leading voices in the US, says not only are more Jews ready to vote Republican, they also have a whole lot of friends in the evangelical Christian community for whom Israel is a top priority.
[...]
"I think the president's instincts are right, and in the past when he got off message it's been the State Department and his father [who have been responsible]," Bauer said.

"I think his instincts started reasserting themselves. I also think the information of [Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser] Arafat's payments to terror was also a factor."
...

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 09:52 AM

I agree, most Christains I know are great allies of the Jewish people and Israel and do not try to convery everyone. However, the Christian right is another story. Like all zealots, including Jews as well, people spreading the gospel or faith or book or theory or whatever, they annoy me greatly. There's nothing like being woken up by some born-agains on a Saturday morning. Maybe I shouldn't get a gun.

elke

07-05-2002, 12:04 PM

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 12:11 PM

Yes! I think that's what I meant, but either one, doesn't make a difference to me. I once argued with a Rabbi all day about how if God is in eveything, including a rabbit, than why does rabbit not have a soul? It's all pointless.

Mediocrates

07-05-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by elke

Ever saw Jehovah's Witnesses at your doorstep? :)

Funny story about that too long to go into here, suffice it to say it involved a hazmat suit, cordless power tools, a boombox.

elke

07-05-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Funny story about that too long to go into here, suffice it to say it involved a hazmat suit, cordless power tools, a boombox.

And who owned these items? Jehovah's Witnesses? I knew they come prepared, but not that prepared! ;)

Mediocrates

07-05-2002, 02:35 PM

I was removing asbestos from a house. I had on a hazmat suit w/respirator helmet, and was carrying a cordless drill with a 2ft long auger bit. The boombox was blasting 'I Wanna Be Sedated'. The Witnesses came to the door and when they saw me they asked if I was busy.

"No. What do you want?" Depress trigger on drill.

"We want to talk to you about what peace means to you."

"You'd be amazed." Slam door.

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 02:41 PM

Right On. That's hilarious, mine involved blowing a certain kind of smoke at them. They knew not to come to a college town I thought, but I was wrong.

elke

07-05-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad
Right On. That's hilarious, mine involved blowing a certain kind of smoke at them. They knew not to come to a college town I thought, but I was wrong.

They don't! :( When I went to college, we had Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy, who had to have been seen to be fully appreciated.

That story is a classic, Mediocrates!:D

cerulean

07-05-2002, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by elke
When I went to college, we had Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy, who had to have been seen to be fully appreciated.

I saw them also! They are indeed remarkable.

Later on the same day, though, I saw Cindy pushing her daughter, who was perhaps 2 years old, in a stroller through the Student Hall looking tired and ordinary (and perhaps my imagination, but a little sad too, I think).

JustPat

07-05-2002, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad I agree, most Christains I know are great allies of the Jewish people and Israel and do not try to convery everyone. However, the Christian right is another story. Like all zealots, including Jews as well, people spreading the gospel or faith or book or theory or whatever, they annoy me greatly. There's nothing like being woken up by some born-agains on a Saturday morning. Maybe I shouldn't get a gun. I guess the problem here is that most conservative Christian people consider themselves part of the "Christian right." They do not see themselves as, nor do they act the part of zealot. Strong in their convictions, grounded in biblical morality, they back those who are willing to give strong moral leadership - regardless of political affiliation.

Many of us understand the role of Israel in our history and our destiny. We are not so quick to write off either. Some of us have studied the Scriptures and are careful to speak about Israel only as G-d speaks of her.

I am not a zealot. I am a friend to Israel. I am a conservative Christian. Am I the "Christian right?" Perhaps "Christian right" is painting with too broad a brush.

elke

07-06-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by cerulean

I saw them also! They are indeed remarkable.

Later on the same day, though, I saw Cindy pushing her daughter, who was perhaps 2 years old, in a stroller through the Student Hall looking tired and ordinary (and perhaps my imagination, but a little sad too, I think).

Did she lose that silly hat she had on? :D

We had our own, "home-grown" religious fanatics on campus. Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy were simply the most amusing ;)

elke

07-06-2002, 01:01 PM

Story about Pat Robertson receiving ZOA award:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12708

JustPat

07-06-2002, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by elke
Story about Pat Robertson receiving ZOA award:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12708 I worked for Pat Robertson for 2 years. The man is almost militant in his support of Israel. I was never ashamed of his stands in regard to the Israeli fight for freedom. Truth be told, the man has invest a great deal of his own money in the State of Israel and its future.

elke

07-16-2002, 07:32 PM

Here is an article about the Christian Right support for Israel:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=187496&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Quote:
"Jewish right-wing advocates have been saying that mere expressions of appreciation to Christian fundamentalist supporters are not enough. They say that Jews should be willing to give in kind for this support...
Morton Klein, president of the Likud-leaning Zionist Organizatin of America, says he isn't disturbed by the religious niceties. "I want their support now," he said, "and I don't care what their theology says down the line."

Cerulean, I take back my comment from "Is Avigdor Lieberman Mad?" thread ("Second of all, the Jewish-Conservative alliance in the US seems to be rather limited to the causes near and dear to both parties, ...The frightening thing about Mr. Lieberman is his apparent drive to keep his eyes on the prize, with no regard for the means to get same. It makes one wonder if he knows what he is getting himself - and Israel - into ):

If Morton Klein's quote is accurate, this is indeed freaky!

cerulean

07-16-2002, 09:35 PM

elke, I get what you are saying :(
Usually alliances require some sort of payback and mutual support. It's just necessary to be clear ahead of time, at least as much as possible, as to what is expected.

elke

07-17-2002, 04:01 PM

...and make it clear that some things are simply not for sale!

cerulean

07-26-2002, 06:26 PM

An article about current Catholic theology regarding Jews waiting for the Messiah:

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649&print=yes

TypingBo

07-28-2002, 12:49 AM

I'm very much a Christian, and consider myself conservative (though I hope for a national health program, support unionism, and eduction... can that be conservative?) but my interest, support, and great admiration for Israel transends any religious ideals. Outside of Turkey, there is no other democracy in that part of the world. Like wise, that little country has moxie, so I admire and care for them. I send money to the Libi fund (Israeli Soldiers fund) every month. I think there are many Christians like me who live at two levels... we recognize that our faith is anchored in that little, ancient, pastoral tribe, with their magnificent Hebrew tongue and glorious bible on the one hand, and our American patriotism makes us relate to and empathize with modern Israel in a political and social sense. I adhere to no prophesies or nacromancers... I just relly dig Israel!

shiva

07-31-2002, 12:58 AM

The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by shiva
The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

Narrowminded nonsense. You don't even say "most" or "many" -- you just accuse all Christian conservatives. How do you know what they are really interested in?

Perhaps you are just interested in driving away what few friends Israel has...

shiva

07-31-2002, 04:31 AM

few friends. Israel? The people who post answers like yours are not the supporters. However, I am Israeli, and know my home and the sentiments better than you could ever hope to. Are you by any chance reading Commentary? Do you honestly think any group has the Israeli's best interest at heart? Look at your history. By saying Israel has few friends, you have shown your hand and have proven my point.

Vic

07-31-2002, 04:32 AM

I have started this thread out of pure curiosity, well aware of my lack of an insider view of the USA, and somewhat worried about similar trends in Europe.

ibrodsky, what is it, in your opinion, that motivates these "what few friends Israel has"? Is it just exceptional morals or do they expect some kind of gain for themselves, whatever it may be? Why this specific group anyway?

The agenda of some of the European self-professed Israel supporters is pretty clear - and alarming. I wonder how much of this applies to the American situation. A short-term friend is not always the best long-term friend...

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Vic
I have started this thread out of pure curiosity, well aware of my lack of an insider view of the USA, and somewhat worried about similar trends in Europe.

ibrodsky, what is it, in your opinion, that motivates these "what few friends Israel has"? Is it just exceptional morals or do they expect some kind of gain for themselves, whatever it may be? Why this specific group anyway?

The agenda of some of the European self-professed Israel supporters is pretty clear - and alarming. I wonder how much of this applies to the American situation. A short-term friend is not always the best long-term friend...

Vic, my experience in life is that it's very hard -- perhaps impossible -- to know other peoples' inner motivations. It is far wiser to observe what they say and do over time. I see Christian conservatives who supported Israel during the Oslo "Peace Process," when their support was generally unwanted. I have seen Christian conservatives support Israel despite the fact that American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal.

I have also heard Christian conservatives respond to the charge that they are only interested in converting Jews by protesting that is not their intention. Some of their leaders and supporters have spoken at and attended "Stand Behind Israel" rallies in the U.S., and most seem very careful about not doing or saying anything that might suggest proselytizing.

There are Christians who have converted to Judaism. I know several. Yet I don't see Christian conservatives expressing fear over this.

Why is it necessary to question the support of Christian conservatives who support Israel in the face of near-worldwide opposition, who are willing to overlook the threat to their values posed by many left-wing Jews, and who sincerely believe -- as many of us here do -- that terrorism is the most profound evil?

These people fervently believe that Israel has the right to exist in security. They are outspoken supporters. They donate money. They don't flinch when the IDF takes out Hamas terrorist leaders.

Instead of blowing them off, like Shiva, we should nurture (and thank them for) their support.

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 05:05 AM

I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle.

raven

07-31-2002, 06:10 AM

Whats the true PRICE for Support of Israel? Hm?

For American Jews: Stated or unstated..do we censor ourselves on Abortion? Do we fight a little LESS rigeriously for stopping the blending of Church and State? What else do we "keep quiet" about so as to keep "our friends"?

Inside Israel? Whats the Price? Little LESS objection to Missionizing...targeting newly arrived Russian Jews and especially Etheopian Jews?

Is there really support for Isreal AS Israel the Jewish State OR is it support for Israel as Jesus Land To Come...when Revelations comes about?

America really IS a Christian Nation...and all America ever had to do was say NO to a Palistinian State. A Phony Constructed Terror State to Come inhabited by run of the mill Arabs of the Area..It IS a phony people...and they know it..and they are helping these Terrorist slice off pieces of Issrael to form this phony State. SOME SUPPORT.

Just saying it like it is...And remember the bottom line of Americas policy IS: Terrorism is Terrorism EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD...EXCEPT in Issrael and Against Jews...Hellooooooooo

Mediocrates

07-31-2002, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle.

I've never heard the man utter one word professing one faith or another - I never heard his personal views on the subject at all. I think he attracts, partially, that kind of crowd inasmuch as there are conservative Christian political junkies. But then again I listen almost never.

Teacake

07-31-2002, 06:25 AM

Non-Jewish supporters of Israel like Rush and Loftus are not part of a christian political movement. There is a difference between smart non-Jews who can see reality and religious fanatics who are keeping tabs of "everything they are doing for "us."

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Teacake
Non-Jewish supporters of Israel like Rush and Loftus are not part of a christian political movement. There is a difference between smart non-Jews who can see reality and religious fanatics who are keeping tabs of "everything they are doing for "us."

There is no movement known as the "Christian Right" -- as featured in the title of this thread. There are the Christian Coalition and Evangelical Christians. No doubt some of their members and perhaps leaders would like to convert Jews, though I suspect converting Muslims, Hindus, etc. is higher priority. Converting Jews is not a stated goal of these groups; promoting family values, opposing terrorism, and reducing taxes are.

Accusations of hidden motives can work both ways. Perhaps some Jews oppose these groups for fervently opposing abortion, for not supporting separation of church and state to extremes, and for opposing other liberal policies.

I think it's fair to say that many Christians have supported Israel long enough that if conversion was their real motive, they would be disillusioned by now. For starters, there aren't that many Jews to convert.

raven

07-31-2002, 05:53 PM

Here are the facts jack: There are 600 different and separate Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY to Missionizing ONLY to Jews. Thats 600...24/7 day in and day out...year in and year out. Calculate the funds needed to do this. Think of the motives. Think of the anger when we DONT secume.

raven

08-01-2002, 11:14 AM

Heres something Jews may or may NOT know. The Mormon Church used to unilaterally convert everyone to Mormonism AFTER their deaths. This was uncovered when somehow relatives of people that died in the Shoa were found their Grandparents on the list somehow converted to Mormonism.

There was a big .."ga shray.".(yelling and screeming) to some of the Mormon Senators..in Congress. and supposedly this practice is discontinued. Whether it is REALLY or has gone undergound is not clear now.

Is this unbelievable or what?? What arrogance. What Alpha Group behavior. I convert YOU to my religion without your permission and wether you are alive or not.

shiva

08-02-2002, 12:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ibrodsky
I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle. [/QUOTE

Some Jews are just insecure? Well, I admit it. This Jew is a bit insecure. There is every reason in the world to be insecure when it comes to the motives of non-Jewish zealots who run towards Israel with open arms. We know why America supports Israel. And don't talk about taking people on an individual basis. There are always exceptions, but when dealing with a group, one must consider the group motives. It is just music to my ears :rolleyes: when I hear the congregation of an Irish Catholic mass pray for the Jewish infidels, and have to listen to the ravings of the Baptist Burden, as well as being told by a born-again freak that what could be more natural than for all Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because, after all, He was a Jew. Don't let yourself assume that an "I'm perfectly happy with my religion" attitude directed towards these people will make the slightest bit of difference. They won't be listening. A little "insecurity" is indeed rational, and prudent. Where have YOU been? Maybe we cannot just drive out the Christian right's support, but neither do we close our eyes and pretend it's something it's not.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by raven
Here are the facts jack: There are 600 different and separate Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY to Missionizing ONLY to Jews. Thats 600...24/7 day in and day out...year in and year out. Calculate the funds needed to do this. Think of the motives. Think of the anger when we DONT secume.

This sounds like a gross exaggeration. But even if true, it still represents a very tiny fraction of Christian groups, less than 0.1%.

I wonder if you or shiva think it is even possible some Christians support Israel due to their attachment to basic principles.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by shiva

Some Jews are just insecure? Well, I admit it. This Jew is a bit insecure. There is every reason in the world to be insecure when it comes to the motives of non-Jewish zealots who run towards Israel with open arms. We know why America supports Israel. And don't talk about taking people on an individual basis. There are always exceptions, but when dealing with a group, one must consider the group motives. It is just music to my ears :rolleyes: when I hear the congregation of an Irish Catholic mass pray for the Jewish infidels, and have to listen to the ravings of the Baptist Burden, as well as being told by a born-again freak that what could be more natural than for all Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because, after all, He was a Jew. Don't let yourself assume that an "I'm perfectly happy with my religion" attitude directed towards these people will make the slightest bit of difference. They won't be listening. A little "insecurity" is indeed rational, and prudent. Where have YOU been? Maybe we cannot just drive out the Christian right's support, but neither do we close our eyes and pretend it's something it's not.

You are permitted to feel insecure. Though it is baseless -- perhaps even pathogical paranoia -- as you are in a country that guarantees freedom of religion and has an excellent track record for the same.

What I object to is suggesting that all Christians who support Israel have ulterior "conversion" motives. We all know that Christian fundamentalism encourages proselytizing. But not all Christains follow this precept or even consider it appropriate.

No one can force you to convert to Christianity. Nor by any stretch of the imagination could one say that Jews in America are under pressure to convert.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by shiva
The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

I think it is safe to say that most Jews and Christians believe their religion is the "true" religion. Both religions accept converts from the other.

Let's assume you are correct. Let's assume Israel's Christian supporters long to convert all of the Jews in Israel.

What difference does it make as long as such attempts are limited to lawful exercise of free speech?

If Christians support Israel only because they are looking for converts, then don't worry. They will probably give up soon enough: being on Israel's side is very unpopular and thankless unless one does it just because they believe it the morally right thing to do.

It would be just as easy, if not easier, to win Jewish converts by insisting Israel is undeserving of support.

shiva

08-02-2002, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

This sounds like a gross exaggeration. But even if true, it still represents a very tiny fraction of Christian groups, less than 0.1%.

I wonder if you or shiva think it is even possible some Christians support Israel due to their attachment to basic principles.

Can you clarify these basic principles? I would be surprised if the end goals were remotely the same, or even on the same wavelength. But, maybe you can shed some light on this matter. However, I think it is understandable to realize, because of history, the folly of taking anything at face value. There is a real threat, and if you think some are putting the cart before the horse, please let me know why we should not be listening to what is NOT said. :)

shiva

08-02-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

I think it is safe to say that most Jews and Christians believe their religion is the "true" religion. Both religions accept converts from the other.

Let's assume you are correct. Let's assume Israel's Christian supporters long to convert all of the Jews in Israel.

What difference does it make as long as such attempts are limited to lawful exercise of free speech?

If Christians support Israel only because they are looking for converts, then don't worry. They will probably give up soon enough: being on Israel's side is very unpopular and thankless unless one does it just because they believe it the morally right thing to do.

It would be just as easy, if not easier, to win Jewish converts by insisting Israel is undeserving of support.

Well, yes, both acccept converts, but only one makes it their mission. The threat is that is would be possible to go beyond the exercise of lawful freedom of speech. I don't know about "the morally right thing to do," because no one is operating on the same moral principles. I also don't know about "giving up" or gaining converts "by insisting Israel is undeserving of support." The attempt to convert the Jews has been going on for thousands of years, so no one gives up easily. As for the latter point, please explain what you mean by that, too. I'm curious to know.

shiva

08-02-2002, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

You are permitted to feel insecure. Though it is baseless -- perhaps even pathogical paranoia -- as you are in a country that guarantees freedom of religion and has an excellent track record for the same.

What I object to is suggesting that all Christians who support Israel have ulterior "conversion" motives. We all know that Christian fundamentalism encourages proselytizing. But not all Christains follow this precept or even consider it appropriate.

No one can force you to convert to Christianity. Nor by any stretch of the imagination could one say that Jews in America are under pressure to convert.

I don't know about the actual practice of religious freedom, although in theory, that is true. I don't know about the rest of the country, but here, on high holidays, can you tell me why the synagouges have to be patrolled by police, to ensure the safety of all inside? Ok, let me clarify. I have met and do know Christian supporters of Israel, who admire the Jews and what they have done with Israel, in fact, I've heard them say, that in their opinion, Israel can do no wrong. But finding those people is like trying the find the proverbial needle in a haystack, moreover, these people were not zealots or even affiliated with any religion. I am speaking about the fundalmentalist groups, who are a force to be reckoned with. Maybe, in this case, "pathological" paranoia is warrented. Maybe the Jews aren't paranoid enough. What is alarming is that taking any of this at face can very well lead to a repeat of history. The real question about genocide, especially the Holocaust, is not "how can this happen;" but why doesn't it happen more"? Of course it does, all the time, albiet in subtler forms than the Holocaust, but the end results are the same. By subtler forms, I mean not as immense in scope, and not as profoundly systematic as the murder of the European Jews, but genocide is genocide, no matter how you slice it. It can even occur without murder. The slogan is " never again." You can see the mistake of blind acceptance.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Well, yes, both acccept converts, but only one makes it their mission.

Agreed.

The threat is that is would be possible to go beyond the exercise of lawful freedom of speech.

It's customary to not accuse people of a crime just because it's possible.

I don't know about "the morally right thing to do," because no one is operating on the same moral principles.

Moral laws are the same for everyone, whether they know it or not.

I also don't know about "giving up" or gaining converts "by insisting Israel is undeserving of support." The attempt to convert the Jews has been going on for thousands of years, so no one gives up easily.

I was referring to supporting Israel as a device to ensnare Jews.

As for the latter point, please explain what you mean by that, too. I'm curious to know.

It's quite simple: I'm saying that if their goal is simply to convert Jews, they don't have to support Israel at all. After all, if the punchline is that Judaism is wrong, why pretend that Israel is right?

JustPat

08-02-2002, 06:04 PM

If I may ...
Painting "Christians" with a broad brush does no more justice to us than painting Jews with a broad brush does for you. Though certain denominational persuasions live to put notches on their Gospel gun butt, they do not necessarily measure up to the biblical definition of "Christian". Not all those who call them selves Christian even believe in the basic common doctrines of the Christian faith. As a matter of fact, few mainline denominations even begin to resemble what the first century CE called Christian.
Those who are bent on converting Jews to Christianity by forcing them into a Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, or Pentecostal mold need to go back and study out the Scriptures. They may be shocked to find that G-d has always had a plan for Israel and that Israel is still on center stage in the "end times" they study so carefully.
My passion for Isreal is tied to my faith. Israel is the trunk of the tree that this branch is growing from. I owe my life to the Israeli scholars who meticulously passed down the Scriptures. I am forever in your debt for building a strong faith that carries people through the worst of adversity and teaches them how to live in such a way that the favor of G-d may rest upon them.
Israel is in my heritage both physically and spiritually. Iwill not abandon her and I will do whatever it takes to see her become a nation that can live in peace, the peace I pray for daily, the peace of Jerusalem.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Can you clarify these basic principles? I would be surprised if the end goals were remotely the same, or even on the same wavelength. But, maybe you can shed some light on this matter. However, I think it is understandable to realize, because of history, the folly of taking anything at face value. There is a real threat, and if you think some are putting the cart before the horse, please let me know why we should not be listening to what is NOT said. :)

Basic principles: The Jews in Palestine circa 1947 had the right to self-determination. Countries that are attacked by those bent on their destruction have the right to self-defense. Terrorist attacks on civilians are profoundly immoral. Etc.

I'm beginning to wonder if you accept the idea of universal principles...

Sure, it's wise to consider what is not said. But it's easy to carry that to an extreme. After all, there will never be alot of information available about what is not said -- it's almost entirely speculation.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by shiva

I don't know about the actual practice of religious freedom, although in theory, that is true. I don't know about the rest of the country, but here, on high holidays, can you tell me why the synagouges have to be patrolled by police, to ensure the safety of all inside? Ok, let me clarify. I have met and do know Christian supporters of Israel, who admire the Jews and what they have done with Israel, in fact, I've heard them say, that in their opinion, Israel can do no wrong. But finding those people is like trying the find the proverbial needle in a haystack, moreover, these people were not zealots or even affiliated with any religion. I am speaking about the fundalmentalist groups, who are a force to be reckoned with. Maybe, in this case, "pathological" paranoia is warrented. Maybe the Jews aren't paranoid enough. What is alarming is that taking any of this at face can very well lead to a repeat of history. The real question about genocide, especially the Holocaust, is not "how can this happen;" but why doesn't it happen more"? Of course it does, all the time, albiet in subtler forms than the Holocaust, but the end results are the same. By subtler forms, I mean not as immense in scope, and not as profoundly systematic as the murder of the European Jews, but genocide is genocide, no matter how you slice it. It can even occur without murder. The slogan is " never again." You can see the mistake of blind acceptance.

The reason your synagogue is patrolled by police is because there are a variety of anti-semitic forces. Some are Muslims, some are Christians, some are who knows. Most are Islamists and White Power militants.

But I seriously doubt your synagogue needs police protection from Christians who support Israel.

BTW, our synagogue is patrolled year-round. Some members were shot and killed by a sniper a number of years ago.

The rest of your post is pretty much unintelligible. Sure, I believe in "never again." But the enemy isn't our friends -- it's our enemies.

The vast majority of the US Congress supports Israel. So does the President. Are they secretly trying to rack up conversions? Do they represent a needle in a haystack? I don't think so...

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:24 PM

JustPat,

Well said.

And thanks for your support!

shiva

08-02-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Basic principles: The Jews in Palestine circa 1947 had the right to self-determination. Countries that are attacked by those bent on their destruction have the right to self-defense. Terrorist attacks on civilians are profoundly immoral. Etc.

I'm beginning to wonder if you accept the idea of universal principles...

Sure, it's wise to consider what is not said. But it's easy to carry that to an extreme. After all, there will never be alot of information available about what is not said -- it's almost entirely speculation.

What is not said that should be said. That's not speculation. There is a big difference between accepting universal principles and actually seeing them put into practice. Also in theory, morals laws are the same for everyone. Unfortunately, this does not translate into practice. Actually, what is moral is determined by a consensus, which does not mean everyone sees it the way you do. It would be great if they did. "the IDEA of universal principles", that's what it is. An idea. And that's a shame, but there you have the reality. It is naive to think that hidden agendas don't exist. Because a certain group professes solidarity and gives money, you automatically assume they want what you want, the way you want it. Come on. You know better than that.

shiva

08-02-2002, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

The reason your synagogue is patrolled by police is because there are a variety of anti-semitic forces. Some are Muslims, some are Christians, some are who knows. Most are Islamists and White Power militants.

But I seriously doubt your synagogue needs police protection from Christians who support Israel.

BTW, our synagogue is patrolled year-round. Some members were shot and killed by a sniper a number of years ago.

The rest of your post is pretty much unintelligible. Sure, I believe in "never again." But the enemy isn't our friends -- it's our enemies.

The vast majority of the US Congress supports Israel. So does the President. Are they secretly trying to rack up conversions? Do they represent a needle in a haystack? I don't think so...

Again, at face value, these are friends. Once more, I will say, FUNDAMENTALISTS, not Christians across the board. However, it so happens that it is the fundamentalists who make up the largest group of supporters. As far as the "enemy isn't our friends------it's our enemies", are you foolish enough to think that the enemy is always obvious? Do you think Bush supports Israel because of "universal principles". Do you think his support is based on some kind of altruism? As far as the "unintelligible" part of my message, that was an example of history repeating itself. Even if the aim/agenda of the X fundamentalists is to keep Islam at bay, do you think they see Israel the way you do? That our interests are on the same page. Maybe. Doubtful.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by shiva

What is not said that should be said. That's not speculation. There is a big difference between accepting universal principles and actually seeing them put into practice. Also in theory, morals laws are the same for everyone. Unfortunately, this does not translate into practice. Actually, what is moral is determined by a consensus, which does not mean everyone sees it the way you do. It would be great if they did. "the IDEA of universal principles", that's what it is. An idea. And that's a shame, but there you have the reality. It is naive to think that hidden agendas don't exist. Because a certain group professes solidarity and gives money, you automatically assume they want what you want, the way you want it. Come on. You know better than that.

No, what is moral is determined by God.

Sorry shiva, but ideas are very much reality. If you believe that ideas are ephemeral, and only material things are real, you are lost. Because then there can be no Free Will, no Truth, no Good.

I didn't say hidden agendas don't exist. But I've learned in life that the only way to determine someone's real agenda is by what they say and do. For example, if a Christian says they support Israel, and they do support Israel, and they don't try to convert me... then I can at least conclude that until I see some contrary indication they appear to be sincere and deserve some benefit of the doubt. The longer they behave trustworthy, the more trustworthy they are.

Really, it's OK to be suspicious when there are suspicious signs, and it's wise not to trust someone until you've had time to see them establish a track record, but it is extremely cynical to decide in advance that everyone must be up to no good just because it's possible.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Again, at face value, these are your friends. Once more, I will say, FUNAMENTALISTS, not Christians across the board. However, it so happens that it is the fundamentalists who are the largest supporters (in numbers).

Well, we may be talking on different wavelengths. The thread is about the "Christian right." These are generally Christian conservatives who fervently support Israel. Some are best known as "Evangelical Christians." Some were once best known as "the Moral Majority."

There may be specific groups you call "fundamentalists" that we would both agree are ultimately looking for conversions -- and see Jews as "sinners" in desperate need of being "saved."

But I know for a fact there are many conservative Christians who simply believe Israel is the wronged party in this conflict, that terrorism is the most atrocious evil (after all, they consider both suicide and homicide to be sins), and that Jews are being persecuted for building a prosperous country through old-fashioned values like hard work.

shiva

08-02-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

No, what is moral is determined by God.

Sorry shiva, but ideas are very much reality. If you believe that ideas are ephemeral, and only material things are real, you are lost. Because then there can be no Free Will, no Truth, no Good.

I didn't say hidden agendas don't exist. But I've learned in life that the only way to determine someone's real agenda is by what they say and do. For example, if a Christian says they support Israel, and they do support Israel, and they don't try to convert me... then I can at least conclude that until I see some contrary indication they appear to be sincere and deserve some benefit of the doubt. The longer they behave trustworthy, the more trustworthy they are.

Really, it's OK to be suspicious when there are suspicious signs, and it's wise not to trust someone until you've had time to see them establish a track record, but it is extremely cynical to decide in advance that everyone must be up to no good just because it's possible.

Well, there you have it. Principles are determined by man, to you, by God. Secular Jews do not subscribe to a God. Ideas/concepts by themselves are not reality, and where did you get "material things"? No one is talking about material things. My point of reference is history. You want to wipe the slate clean. It is extremely Pollyanaish to think "well, that's all over now". Or, "if you're nice to me now, you're my friend." In another post, an opinion was expressed "at what price" and yet in another, "a short-term friend does not always make for the best long-term friend." I agree that the longer someone's good faith prevails, they deserve more trust, but this is a unique situation, and a great deal of caution is called for.

shiva

08-02-2002, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Well, we may be talking on different wavelengths. The thread is about the "Christian right." These are generally Christian conservatives who fervently support Israel. Some are best known as "Evangelical Christians." Some were once best known as "the Moral Majority."

There may be specific groups you call "fundamentalists" that we would both agree are ultimately looking for conversions -- and see Jews as "sinners" in desperate need of being "saved."

But I know for a fact there are many conservative Christians who simply believe Israel is the wronged party in this conflict, that terrorism is the most atrocious evil (after all, they consider both suicide and homicide to be sins), and that Jews are being persecuted for building a prosperous country through old-fashioned values like hard work.

I'm talking about the Christian right. Maybe I should not have called them fundamentalists. I'd love tomeet those people you know who believe what you say they do. Are you quite sure that, that is all there is to it?

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Well, there you have it. Principles are determined by man, to you, by God. Secular Jews do not subscribe to a God. Ideas/concepts by themselves are not reality, and where did you get "material things"? No one is talking about material things. My point of reference is history. You want to wipe the slate clean. It is extremely Pollyanaish to think "well, that's all over now". Or, "if you're nice to me now, you're my friend." In another post, an opinion was expressed "at what price" and yet in another, "a short-term friend does not always make for the best long-term friend." I agree that the longer someone's good are eager to faith prevails, they deserve more trust, but this is a unique situation, and a great deal of caution is called for.

By saying morality is determined by God, I mean that it is a law of the universe and not something subjective. If you think the laws of physics are nothing more than a consensus, then you are denying that they conform to something external and real. Physicists may come to a consensus about how to describe the way the universe works, but that doesn't mean that they just make it up.

Just as you are eager to dismiss Christian support for Israel, you are eager to put words in my mouth. I never said we should dismiss history. In fact, if you go back and read my posts throughout IsraelForum you will see that I have consistently argued that history matters; that there is historical truth; and that conflicts can't be resolved without confronting those truths.

Our difference is not that I am Pollyannish, but that you are cynical. You made that clear when you suggested that others' intentions are likely to be bad simply because it is possible. I exercise caution, but form judgments based on evidence. You form judgments first, but allow that occasionally some person might come along and prove your prejudice wrong.

You seem to think that Israel should generally refuse support from Christians -- or at least give the cold shoulder treatment. Fortunately, Israel's leaders have been wise enough to not only accept such support, but to seek it out and cultivate it.

BTW, if you are a secular Jew, do you reject the support of religious Jews? I am a secular Jew and am happy for any support Israel can get.

L@mplighterM

08-02-2002, 09:46 PM

I would trust very few people with my life (I think someone once said that a true friend is more precious than diamonds) but sometimes you can be left with no option other than accepting blind trust. I’m an atheist and as an atheist I believe only in evolution and the physical laws of the universe.

I have no love for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I have acquaintances from many religions (no Muslims or Jehovah’s) and religion really never enters into a conversation. No one has ever tried to convert me I suppose that’s because they know what reaction they would receive.

It’s estimated that the Jewry of the world is somewhere between 15-18 million and that’s not a high population base. I would say take support from wherever it can currently be found. The Congress of the USA supports Israel and even some of the US administration and they are certainly not all Jews.

Some countries in the EU have started cracking down on Radical Islam so in effect they have taken the same position as Israel in a small way. A wave has begun and it’ll build into a tidal wave sweeping Radical Muslims to hell where they belong that is my prophecy.

There will be more innocent lives lost before the battle against evil is won but it must be won.

Christian (not all denominations) and Jews, etc. are all in the same boat facing the dangers of Radical Islam.

shiva

08-02-2002, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I would trust very few people with my life (I think someone once said that a true friend is more precious than diamonds) but sometimes you can be left with no option other than accepting blind trust. I’m an atheist and as an atheist I believe only in evolution and the physical laws of the universe.

I have no love for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I have acquaintances from many religions (no Muslims or Jehovah’s) and religion really never enters into a conversation. No one has ever tried to convert me I suppose that’s because they know what reaction they would receive.

It’s estimated that the Jewry of the world is somewhere between 15-18 million and that’s not a high population base. I would say take support from wherever it can currently be found. The Congress of the USA supports Israel and even some of the US administration and they are certainly not all Jews.

Some countries in the EU have started cracking down on Radical Islam so in effect they have taken the same position as Israel in a small way. A wave has begun and it’ll build into a tidal wave sweeping Radical Muslims to hell where they belong that is my prophecy.

There will be more innocent lives lost before the battle against evil is won but it must be won.

Christian (not all denominations) and Jews, etc. are all in the same boat facing the dangers of Radical Islam.

I agree--------Israel cannot exactly refuse help when it comes, but I meant, that even when help is accepted, it would not be wise to become complacent. It is true that the Judeo-Christian world is being threatened by militant and radical Islam, which is scary. However, in an earlier post that agreed with my outlook, the author made a very good point in saying how long are we going to have to stay mute, to keep a few friends? Is it impossible for us to voice a protest against those who do try to convert, just so we don't make waves? And is that too high of a price? I don't know. But I think it bears mulling over.

shiva

08-02-2002, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

By saying morality is determined by God, I mean that it is a law of the universe and not something subjective. If you think the laws of physics are nothing more than a consensus, then you are denying that they conform to something external and real. Physicists may come to a consensus about how to describe the way the universe works, but that doesn't mean that they just make it up.

Just as you are eager to dismiss Christian support for Israel, you are eager to put words in my mouth. I never said we should dismiss history. In fact, if you go back and read my posts throughout IsraelForum you will see that I have consistently argued that history matters; that there is historical truth; and that conflicts can't be resolved without confronting those truths.

Our difference is not that I am Pollyannish, but that you are cynical. You made that clear when you suggested that others' intentions are likely to be bad simply because it is possible. I exercise caution, but form judgments based on evidence. You form judgments first, but allow that occasionally some person might come along and prove your prejudice wrong.

You seem to think that Israel should generally refuse support from Christians -- or at least give the cold shoulder treatment. Fortunately, Israel's leaders have been wise enough to not only accept such support, but to seek it out and cultivate it.

BTW, if you are a secular Jew, do you reject the support of religious Jews? I am a secular Jew and am happy for any support Israel can get.

ok, sorry, but do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that Israel should not accept help from Christians across the board. And not every Israeli, agrees with the policies of their heads of states and even the leaders are watching closely. I said to be cautious because not only is there a possibility, there is a precedence. ok. we agree on history. There is your evidence, for as you said, you base your opinion on evidence. There is a lot of evidence out there that supports the cautious view. However, if you did mean the laws of natural science, why didn't you say so? What possesed you to say God, especially if you are secular. And just how is morality a law of nature? Humans determine what is moral, nature our natural drives, which are separate things. But ask yourself, do the means justify the end? What price do people pay for what could be opportunistic actions? If I'm as cynical as you say I am, believing human nature is one way, then you'll have to live with Pollyanna, believing it is another. Now, I'm tired of this circling conversation that is going nowwhere, so Adieu, and goodnight. :)

shiva

08-03-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by raven
C: thank you for the information. Im going to investigate what you put up. Wish I could have written more clearly... Thank G-d for the internet...It can fill in what I left out.

I feel all alone out here asking Jews to please learn about what these very numerous amounts of peoples believe. We learn about everything else in the world..why not learn the true nature of who we are dealing with, what they believe, and what may be the price. There will be a price for the support of Israel. Yes we need the support...but what KIND of support is it?

Do look at the HolyLand Experience Themepark. This is run by a Messianic Jew...this one a convert. He leads his audience thru the Old Testament ...one liitle teeny change tho...even as it seems like a Jewish experience, it is set up to lead people to the conclusion that all that is in the Old Testament is merely a set up for the acceptance of Jesus and the New Testament. This is just one small example of Messianic Jews and what their own theology is. Most Jews are unaware of these groups and the Replacement groups...who would define us OUT of our own Religion. Pardon me..people..I think this is QUITE a problem.

Im asking all who are interested to read for themselves...thats all.

You are not alone in thinking that this is a serious and important matter, which, although Israel needs the help, needs to be understood as best as we are able to. I do think this is a problem, and a potential mess and danger, so the best thing to do is to prepare by educating ourselves-----no surprises and no complacency. In taking the help, all Jews need to be aware of the strings attached, the compromises that will have to be made, and the motive. All I ask is for people not to trust blindly. :)

shiva

08-03-2002, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by raven
Whats the true PRICE for Support of Israel? Hm?

For American Jews: Stated or unstated..do we censor ourselves on Abortion? Do we fight a little LESS rigeriously for stopping the blending of Church and State? What else do we "keep quiet" about so as to keep "our friends"?

Inside Israel? Whats the Price? Little LESS objection to Missionizing...targeting newly arrived Russian Jews and especially Etheopian Jews?

Is there really support for Isreal AS Israel the Jewish State OR is it support for Israel as Jesus Land To Come...when Revelations comes about?

America really IS a Christian Nation...and all America ever had to do was say NO to a Palistinian State. A Phony Constructed Terror State to Come inhabited by run of the mill Arabs of the Area..It IS a phony people...and they know it..and they are helping these Terrorist slice off pieces of Issrael to form this phony State. SOME SUPPORT.

Just saying it like it is...And remember the bottom line of Americas policy IS: Terrorism is Terrorism EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD...EXCEPT in Issrael and Against Jews...Hellooooooooo

These Raven, are the real concerns. Well said. I wish everyone could see the other side of the coin, and give what you say some serious thought. This "wait and see" attitude, and the willingness to accept that Israel's best interest is at heart, that it will stay a Jewish country, and that there is no ulterior motive, is dangerous. Israel might be between a rock and a hard place as far as help is concerned, but in accepting this help, everyone must be aware of any strings attached. Is this a total acceptance of Israel's way of life, will Jerusalem remain a Jewish city, do they support Israel's desires without change? Most of all, will Israel remain a Jewish country, and respected as such? I wish there was a contract for this sort of thing. However, I am going to look into every source you mentioned. Thanks for the info, some of it I did not know. As you say " a little less objection to Missionizing"........... The more we accept, the more we will compromise, until Israel loses it's foundations. Where does one draw the line? :)

Vic

08-03-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by trainspotter18
Shiva, u are a disgusting racist. You make me sick. People like are the reason why the holocaust happened.Anyone interested in starting a thread "samples of (Neo)Nazi statements"?

On a serious note: this is the point where even I ask for a poster to be banned from this forum. Such personal attacks are intolerable.

P.S.: In both of his/her incarnations, please: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=18992#post18992

shiva

08-03-2002, 01:38 AM

ibrodsky

08-03-2002, 05:02 AM

shiva, as you noted in another thread, there are some things we agree on.

I am curious, though, because you didn't answer one of my questions. How do you feel about uniting with religious Jews in defense of Israel? While Jews do not proselytize to non-Jews, they certainly prosleytize among secular Jews.

You also agreed with Raven, whose real concern about the "Christian right" is that they oppose the popular liberal Jewish agenda. I have a newsflash: there are some religious Jews and even secular Jews (I am an example) who oppose abortion. I'm tired of hearing that abortion is one of the main issues facing the U.S.; it isn't. I'm tired of hearing that it is a "right" from people who just want to make sure they have a contraceptive of last resort; and I'm tired of hearing that destroying life is no big deal.

Maybe this sheds some light on the Christian right. They see terrorism as abortion of the already-born. And I agree with them. I also think a growing number of religious Jews are lining up with the Christian right on many issues: abortion, family vlaues, etc.

elke

08-03-2002, 06:55 AM

JustPat,

That was truly touching!

I have to admit, I waffle on this subject tremendously. I've met fire-breathing Christian zealots, ready to convert anything on two legs, and I've met - and worked with - truly enlightened, fine, and at the same time deeply religious Christians, with deep appreciation of the religious diversity and honest respect and love for Israel and her people.

Sometimes, I feel that we are way too insecure: after all, we have survived over 2000 years of attempts at conversion, with no Israel to help. At other times, however, I fear that we will have to "pay" for that support by selling our very soul.

Proselytizing by the religious Jews is not a scary thing, for me anyway, because the secular Jews have a similar goal at heart: the continuation of the Jewish culture. If a religious Jew can convince me that there is a G-d as described in the Torah, I would in fact be grateful! ;) It wouldn't change our worldview entirely, either, since the concepts of "good" and "evil" we accept are not at odds with what Judaism teaches.

shiva

08-03-2002, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
shiva, as you noted in another thread, there are some things we agree on.

I am curious, though, because you didn't answer one of my questions. How do you feel about uniting with religious Jews in defense of Israel? While Jews do not proselytize to non-Jews, they certainly prosleytize among secular Jews.

You also agreed with Raven, whose real concern about the "Christian right" is that they oppose the popular liberal Jewish agenda. I have a newsflash: there are some religious Jews and even secular Jews (I am an example) who oppose abortion. I'm tired of hearing that abortion is one of the main issues facing the U.S.; it isn't. I'm tired of hearing that it is a "right" from people who just want to make sure they have a contraceptive of last resort; and I'm tired of hearing that destroying life is no big deal.

Maybe this sheds some light on the Christian right. They see terrorism as abortion of the already-born. And I agree with them. I also think a growing number of religious Jews are lining up with the Christian right on many issues: abortion, family vlaues, etc.

Well, as far as the first question, it is very true that the Orthodox do go on about it. But I have found that with conservitive Jews, there really isn't a problem. Moreover, although this may sound hypocritical, I must be honest and say that it is easier with Jews, as I know where they stand as far as Israel is concerned. I must confess, I do have a problem with the Hasidim, but in Israel, they are a tiny minority, and no one really likes putting up with them. However, what is interesting is that their children have changed, and now insist on going into the army, although they are forbidden to use guns. they don't want to feel like outsiders. As much as you say a change is coming about in the diaspora, I think you will be surprised about the changes you will see amongst the Israeli's and their traditional roles. The Orthodox get a lot of flack for not carrying their weight, as far as the defense of Israel goes. But, yes, I would feel easier with them, even though I could never support theirs or your politics. I agree that abortion is not a viable method of birth control, but it is also a woman's choice, and a woman is not a slave to her biology. I am As you can tell, I am a liberal, and despise republican sentiments, so the politics you are talking about would rankle me to no end. I'm also surprised about what you say the thinking is on abortion, because in the Jewish religion, life does not begin until birth, and in the diaspora, abortion has always been tolerated, except for the Hadsidm. The kind of thinking that does take a hard line is part of what scares me about the Christian right, and also, they couldn't possibly experience the feeling of what Israel means to all Jewish factions. I think one of the great things about Judiaism is that we do not have to think alike, in order to feel united, and to be Jews. Nobody kicks you out of your religion if you think differently. I'll say that we could never talk politics, but we do have the same feelings towards Israel. Let me add that I do agree with Raven, no matter if one is religious or secular. I do worry about the threat to the popular Jewish liberal side. As that is where I fit in. But I would not dismiss Jews, as being a part of my heritage, who think otherwise. I just don't agree. I would have a hard time if the help given came with such strings as everyone must believe in our version of family values. I have no tolerance for intolerance, or for people who think they can tell me what and what not I can do with myself and my body. But the bottom line is, it's okay, when I know that Israel's best interests are going to be maintained, and that we don't all have to become like the religious Jews. ( also, this may surprise you, but although one ahs to be secretive about having an abortion in Israel, women use it as a method of birth control, on the sly. Thousands of well-to-do women). Israel, for all its sophistication in comparison to the rest of the middle east, is still a middle eastern country, and the men do not take kindly to abortion, even the seculars. So the women just don't tell them. It is a quiet rebellion against the anger of being expected to be a recepticale for children. It is no surprise, because Israeli's are educated, for the most part, that families are having a couple of children, and that's it. the Muslims are having 10 to a family. that's a little daunting. But I digress, so , I hope I answered your question. CU :)

shiva

08-03-2002, 07:49 AM

shiva

08-03-2002, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by JustPat
If I may ...
Painting "Christians" with a broad brush does no more justice to us than painting Jews with a broad brush does for you. Though certain denominational persuasions live to put notches on their Gospel gun butt, they do not necessarily measure up to the biblical definition of "Christian". Not all those who call them selves Christian even believe in the basic common doctrines of the Christian faith. As a matter of fact, few mainline denominations even begin to resemble what the first century CE called Christian.
Those who are bent on converting Jews to Christianity by forcing them into a Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, or Pentecostal mold need to go back and study out the Scriptures. They may be shocked to find that G-d has always had a plan for Israel and that Israel is still on center stage in the "end times" they study so carefully.
My passion for Isreal is tied to my faith. Israel is the trunk of the tree that this branch is growing from. I owe my life to the Israeli scholars who meticulously passed down the Scriptures. I am forever in your debt for building a strong faith that carries people through the worst of adversity and teaches them how to live in such a way that the favor of G-d may rest upon them.
Israel is in my heritage both physically and spiritually. Iwill not abandon her and I will do whatever it takes to see her become a nation that can live in peace, the peace I pray for daily, the peace of Jerusalem.

you mention "in the end times". Do not say your interst in Israel isn't based on the prominence of Christianity in Israel. There IS an agenda.

raven

08-03-2002, 09:22 AM

Shiva: Leaving this to you for the time being. You are doing a wonderful job. Im noticing something very troubling within the Jewish Community now. SOME..very small amount of Jews seem to be "parking their brain" as IF...there was no History. All of a sudden because some of their Conservative Political Positions and worry about Israel match SOME Fundamentalist Christians Positions..there is this strange new Colilition.

This so called Colilition was tried in the 1980's with Ronald Regan. The second the airplaine flying Ronald Regan home to Calif. left Andrews Airforce Base...this "close Friendship" was essentially OVER. (We were just USED in that period by those people) And immediately the NEO CONSERVATIVES...were labeled interloppers in the Republican Party...not real Republicans..and a sort of undesirable secret group within the Republican Party..too Jewish of course...and not to be trusted or accepted. Neo Cons...are gone now.

One problem with Jews is that we do not understand Christianity...or probably Islam..for that matter. How many of us have gone to Chruch..or Mosque...have gone into the different Religious schools to see just what is taught..Read the NT and read the Koran...have grown up in areas where there are large numbers of people from other religions?..WE DONT LEARN what these people BELIEVE..in their hearts...down deep...

I dont know about Islam...but I DO KNOW about Christianity. Jews...take your behind to CHURCH...Many Churches. Make sure to go on the run up to Easter..and in the run up to Christmas. Dont open your mouth..just sit and listen. Jews...turn on the TV Ministers..and do it over a period of time. LEARN what they believe. Concentrate on ***Revelations.. We learn about everything else in the world...why not THIS? You cannot make intelligent decicisions on this subject without knowing about it. I plead with you to be informed...Thats all I ask.

raven

08-03-2002, 09:30 AM

Shiva: This is ALL this is about..Revelations and the END TIMES. Plus a little..."Jews have to be in some charge of Israel or Islam wont let us in"..Simple as that.

ibrodsky: There are 600 Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY...to the conversion of Jews. This is NOT an exagguration. So sorry for US...but it is true.

Everyone is entitled to their own Political Views..I myself changed my old Party and am now leaning more to the right of center...BUT I am not going to throw away what I KNOW to be true.

Jews...another illuminating "trip" to make is to go on the Net and look up Interntet Missionizing. (whatever phrase will bring this up) This is a humongous effort...by untold amounts of people..full of deceipt...and of course ending up in bad feeling when who they target refuse to secome. Just look as see what the tactics are and what the goals are. WE dont do this...and WE have a right NOT to have this done to us. Here OR in Israel.

danholo

08-03-2002, 09:56 AM

I've been to curches and I don't like em'. The feeling and the atmosphere is so bleak. It's intolerable.
Agh, and the prayers. They're just ****ing whining!
Can't stand it. Not at all.
Of course some churches are beautiful like St. Peter's in Rome, but still it's not cozy at all.

ibrodsky

08-03-2002, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by raven

Jews...another illuminating "trip" to make is to go on the Net and look up Interntet Missionizing. (whatever phrase will bring this up) This is a humongous effort...by untold amounts of people..full of deceipt...and of course ending up in bad feeling when who they target refuse to secome. Just look as see what the tactics are and what the goals are. WE dont do this...and WE have a right NOT to have this done to us. Here OR in Israel.

How is it anyone's "right" to deprive others of free speech?

I don't have any trouble saying "No thanks" and shutting the door when Jehovah's Witnesses ring my bell. Avoiding "Internet Missionizing" is a thousand times easier.

Shades of liberal authoritarianism...

L@mplighterM

08-03-2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by trainspotter18
Shiva, u are a disgusting racist. You make me sick. People like are the reason why the holocaust happened.

It doesn't which side you are on, you hold an evil idealogy.

On the contrary if there had been more people like shiva and raven the holocaust might have been prevented. People would be wise to question and not take things at face value. In the current world situation it?s difficult to determine who exactly is friend or foe.

One evil individual and his supporters drove the holocaust. Prior to the onset of WW II Jews were far too complacent in Germany but who could have foreseen the agenda of the madman named Hitler?

Unfortunately hindsight is everything and sadly the past can?t be altered. You can learn from history and so you should. In this ever changing scary world Jews especially should be vary of Islam and Christianity because there?s no question in my mind that there are neo Nazis or new Nazis that want to continue the holocaust and exterminate the remainder of the world Jewry.

It?s impossible to know who exactly is a genuine friend and would support you to the dying end. I?m certain many Jews had European friends prior to the holocaust and those so-called friends fearing for their own safety looked the other way when Jews were deported to the concentration camps. I have no reason to believe that history wouldn?t replay itself the same way today.

I?m happy that a wave appears to be building against Radical Islam in Europe and I fully expect and believe it?ll sweep these bastards to hell. Of course the ?Blood and Honor? chapters will be left behind throughout Europe to preach their poisonous anti Semitic venom worshiping the devil reincarnate Adolph Hitler and his followers.

When you are few you need to build alliances to become many and from the many become millions and from the millions become billions in strength and numbers. Radical Islam is inherently evil and I believe that unless one is a complete idiot you know that a lasting alliance cannot be built with religious terrorist madmen. It must and will be destroyed!

It will be destroyed by a coalition of religions that will bring it to its knees. Blood has been drawn in this fight and although George Bush denies that it?s a Crusade I believe him to be wrong.

In the end I hope the brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind can walk peacefully side by side in peace and tolerance each seeking what they desire without persecution.

Before I forget I believe that trainspotter 18 should be permanently banned from posting.

L@mplighterM

08-03-2002, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

How is it anyone's "right" to deprive others of free speech?

I don't have any trouble saying "No thanks" and shutting the door when Jehovah's Witnesses ring my bell. Avoiding "Internet Missionizing" is a thousand times easier.

Shades of liberal authoritarianism...

If all you say is “No Thanks” when they come to your place then they get off easy.

:)

raven

08-03-2002, 11:58 AM

Dan: Let me just say this another way...It isnt wether you like the Church or Mosque Service..It isnt wether or not you find it "cozy" or not. It is about learning what people around you (the majority of people in the world) really believe. It is KNOWLEDGE Im talking about. (Incidently some Church Services are nice..some are beautiful as the theater they are..for us anyway..some having values quite close to our values..while we are at it) BUT...there are values and attitudes that are NOT of us. There are understandings about Jews and Israel of old and Jews and Israel that are NOT of us. Waaaaaay different. Most Jews know nothing at all about this!! You learn this when you sit in Church and LISTEN. When you get informed...THEN you can make your decision about wether these people ARE or ARE NOT..our friends in reality.

Lamp: You totally stun me.. It might have been ME writing what you just wrote. SO completely true. Thats MY motivation for pleading for caution...and REALITY in this whole thing. I remember...I remember....Old enough to have heard the stories first hand....Lets not make this mistake AGAIN. Lets not make this mistake with BOTH groups..

ibrodsky: Please let me state AGAIN. Im not a Liberal..Im not a Conservative either. I have my brain..and use it to make decisions on what I think is right and what I think is wrong--issue by issue.. Please dont classify me as a Liberal. I ask you only...when you have the time...to do some investigating on your own..to see what I am saying is NOT an attack on your more Conservative views--which you have every right to support. This is specific to OUR issue...and thats what I am talking about.

shiva

08-03-2002, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by raven
Shiva: This is ALL this is about..Revelations and the END TIMES. Plus a little..."Jews have to be in some charge of Israel or Islam wont let us in"..Simple as that.

ibrodsky: There are 600 Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY...to the conversion of Jews. This is NOT an exagguration. So sorry for US...but it is true.

Everyone is entitled to their own Political Views..I myself changed my old Party and am now leaning more to the right of center...BUT I am not going to throw away what I KNOW to be true.

Jews...another illuminating "trip" to make is to go on the Net and look up Interntet Missionizing. (whatever phrase will bring this up) This is a humongous effort...by untold amounts of people..full of deceipt...and of course ending up in bad feeling when who they target refuse to secome. Just look as see what the tactics are and what the goals are. WE dont do this...and WE have a right NOT to have this done to us. Here OR in Israel.

true.

shiva

08-03-2002, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

On the contrary if there had been more people like shiva and raven the holocaust might have been prevented. People would be wise to question and not take things at face value. In the current world situation it?s difficult to determine who exactly is friend or foe.

One evil individual and his supporters drove the holocaust. Prior to the onset of WW II Jews were far too complacent in Germany but who could have foreseen the agenda of the madman named Hitler?

Unfortunately hindsight is everything and sadly the past can?t be altered. You can learn from history and so you should. In this ever changing scary world Jews especially should be vary of Islam and Christianity because there?s no question in my mind that there are neo Nazis or new Nazis that want to continue the holocaust and exterminate the remainder of the world Jewry.

It?s impossible to know who exactly is a genuine friend and would support you to the dying end. I?m certain many Jews had European friends prior to the holocaust and those so-called friends fearing for their own safety looked the other way when Jews were deported to the concentration camps. I have no reason to believe that history wouldn?t replay itself the same way today.

I?m happy that a wave appears to be building against Radical Islam in Europe and I fully expect and believe it?ll sweep these bastards to hell. Of course the ?Blood and Honor? chapters will be left behind throughout Europe to preach their poisonous anti Semitic venom worshiping the devil reincarnate Adolph Hitler and his followers.

When you are few you need to build alliances to become many and from the many become millions and from the millions become billions in strength and numbers. Radical Islam is inherently evil and I believe that unless one is a complete idiot you know that a lasting alliance cannot be built with religious terrorist madmen. It must and will be destroyed!

It will be destroyed by a coalition of religions that will bring it to its knees. Blood has been drawn in this fight and although George Bush denies that it?s a Crusade I believe him to be wrong.

In the end I hope the brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind can walk peacefully side by side in peace and tolerance each seeking what they desire without persecution.

Before I forget I believe that trainspotter 18 should be permanently banned from posting.

Your thoughts are beautifully stated. Thank you for putting into words, the feelings I have about this issue.

raven

08-03-2002, 02:12 PM

Shiva: I cant seem to get thru to some Jews on this issue. Cant even talk about it on some Forums. Its freightening that we cant. So..if you cant stand to actually GO to Church and learn what you neighbors think and feel...about YOU...tune into Christian TV...or Read about it...Have to know whats going on around you...to understand whats going on. MOST of the World is not Jewish. Got to get a handle on what most of the world believes. Policy comes from what they believe. From Policy comes LAW... Its a duh...

I have recommended this book before..I will to you. now just in case you havent heard about it. John Loftus "Secret War Against the Jews"... So much information in this long book. Worth the read..even if you do it in pieces. little by little... Loftus also has a WebSite. He is suing the US for essentially knowing quite a bit about the Terror Network operating here and either covering up..or purposely turning their heads.

While Im recommending Books..not on the "Christians Friends" subject...but good..Stephen Emerson's older book..".American House of Saud"..and his newer one which pinpointed exactly what we now know is going on..".American Jihad".

shiva

08-03-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by raven
Shiva: I cant seem to get thru to some Jews on this issue. Cant even talk about it on some Forums. Its freightening that we cant. So..if you cant stand to actually GO to Church and learn what you neighbors think and feel...about YOU...tune into Christian TV...or Read about it...Have to know whats going on around you...to understand whats going on. MOST of the World is not Jewish. Got to get a handle on what most of the world believes. Policy comes from what they believe. From Policy comes LAW... Its a duh...

I have recommended this book before..I will to you. now just in case you havent heard about it. John Loftus "Secret War Against the Jews"... So much information in this long book. Worth the read..even if you do it in pieces. little by little... Loftus also has a WebSite. He is suing the US for essentially knowing quite a bit about the Terror Network operating here and either covering up..or purposely turning their heads.

While Im recommending Books..not on the "Christians Friends" subject...but good..Stephen Emerson's older book..".American House of Saud"..and his newer one which pinpointed exactly what we now know is going on..".American Jihad".

I hear you. I suppose a lot of people don't want to hear it, it frightens them. I become alarmed just hearing the radical pro-pals postings on the forum. I'm not working on blind faith and then keeping my fingers crossed. But buck up, because there are a lot of people out there who watch as closely as we do. I will definetly get those books and have a read, also, there are 3 very good books that give a lot of information.. I just moved, so I haven't unpacked yet and only remember one author. Read, "the vanishing american jew" by alan Dershowitz-----I know he's a bit dodgey, but it really is informative. The other one is "how Catholics look at Jews" by a Priest , and "the destruction of the Jews", which is a fantastic chronicle-overview, of the prevailing attitudes. I'll get the authors to you. However, I feel what we are doing is the right path, and we will just keep on doing it, no matter who thinks it's paranoiad. Rome wasn't built in a day, but take heart that there are a lot of Jews out there who question and deliberate, and keep up with what is going on, pertaining to this issue. I'm in complete agreement with you, and am always listening. At least it's nice to have someone to share information with, I know it's alarming when no one questions and doesn't want to. Keep plugging, and we'll get there.

cerulean

08-03-2002, 04:14 PM

I haven't read this one, but it's had pretty good reviews:

Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395779278/qid=1028419911/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-1965692-9427018

shiva

08-03-2002, 04:18 PM

JustPat

08-03-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by shiva you mention "in the end times". Do not say your interst in Israel isn't based on the prominence of Christianity in Israel. There IS an agenda. Please don't let your paranoia be a determination of my motivation. I love Israel for G-d's sake. She is G-d's chosen and she alone is the common thread throughout biblical history. It is Israel G-d favors, Israel He repeatedly delivers, and Israel He points to in the timeline of end time events by the mouth of the prophets.

Do I want everyone, Israeli's included, to share what I have? ... A very personal and very real friendship with the G-d who alone is G-d ... absolutely!

Do I insist that only through a "Christian conversion" can Jews fufill what G-d requires? To insist that a Jew adopt Christianity is to fail to see the truth of Scripture. The writer of Hebrews, writing to Jews of "the Way" stated, "Without faith it is impossible to please G-d, but those who would draw near to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Heb. 11:6) For a Jew to walk in the favor of God he need only fulfill this simple injunction. You may remember that David was called "a man after G-d's own heart." What made him so highly favored by G-d? "One thing I have desired of the Lord, that will I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to inquire in His temple." (Ps. 27:4) I dare any Christian to prove that the man who seeks G-d with all his heart will be denied. My only agenda is to see all men seek G-d with all their heart. From there, G-d is more than big enough to bring all of us into the knowledge of the truth. Read into that what you please, but I leave it as it is to stand on it's own merit.

ibrodsky

08-03-2002, 09:56 PM

Shiva, L@amplighterM, and Raven,

Recognizing anecdotal evidence is hardly conclusive... but I wonder if any of you have had similar experiences:

1. I have met quite a few religious Jews who are extremely hostile towards secular Jews. In fact, when I first read one of your posts, Shiva, I thought you were a religious Jew. I'm not trying to pick a new fight with you, it's just that I had heard many of the same arguments about how you can't trust Christians directed at secular Jews. I have met not only some orthodox but some conservative Jews who say secular Jews -- and even reformed Jews -- are "not really Jews."

2. FWIW, I am probably best classified as a deist. Some religious people consider deists to be atheists, though. But the point I want to make is that on several occasions I have heard religious Jews launch into diatribes against atheists that are rather hard to distinguish from Muslim diatribes on the same subject.

To be fair, the abrasive people I've described are probably a small minority. There are many religious Jews who do feel a bond with secular Jews. Of course, we may never know how many secretly desire to "convert" them and believe in the end they will. After all, "There are no atheists in foxholes."

shiva

08-04-2002, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Shiva, L@amplighterM, and Raven,

Recognizing anecdotal evidence is hardly conclusive... but I wonder if any of you have had similar experiences:

1. I have met quite a few religious Jews who are extremely hostile towards secular Jews. In fact, when I first read one of your posts, Shiva, I thought you were a religious Jew. I'm not trying to pick a new fight with you, it's just that I had heard many of the same arguments about how you can't trust Christians directed at secular Jews. I have met not only some orthodox but some conservative Jews who say secular Jews -- and even reformed Jews -- are "not really Jews."

2. FWIW, I am probably best classified as a deist. Some religious people consider deists to be atheists, though. But the point I want to make is that on several occasions I have heard religious Jews launch into diatribes against atheists that are rather hard to distinguish from Muslim diatribes on the same subject.

To be fair, the abrasive people I've described are probably a small minority. There are many religious Jews who do feel a bond with secular Jews. Of course, we may never know how many secretly desire to "convert" them and believe in the end they will. After all, "There are no atheists in foxholes."

well, I can't argue with you there. I, too, have run across orthodox (Hasidim) that feel this way. Even in Israel, one cannot convert unless one does it the Orthdox way. However, Judiasm has a long history of many different factions and interpretations. Some think that the Hasidim is the only way to really be Jewish today, as they observe all the laws. But that faction is only 400 years old, actually maybe 300. Others have felt that to be a Zionist is the only viable way to be a Jew. There has always been an arguement as to what and who is a Jew, but although we may disagree, the great thing is that in the end, everyone has a synagouge to go to. I like the fact that the religion is so flexible. I was once on a plane coming here from Israel, and sat next to a Hasidic man who told me the whole way home, that unless I became Hasidim, I could never be a Jew. I chalk it up to fanatacism, and Jews can be fanatical as well. I haven't heard anyone say that a reformed Jew cannot be trusted, like a Christian, but I'm not saying you're wrong----I just haven't heard it. I do not necessarily believe that no one is to be trusted if not a Jew, but I do believe in caution when it comes to fanaticism. There is, to me, a subtle difference between a fanatical Christian and a fanantical Jew, being that a fanatical Jew won't have an agenda to turn Israel into none other than a Jewish country, even if they do not believe in Zionism. There are those Orthodox who do not believe Israel should exist, because Zionism goes against the grain of their beliefs. But, they're not invested in dismantling Israel. This may be hypocritical, and we all have some hypocrital feelings, but it is easier for me to trust an Orthodox Jew, because, for all intents and purposes, we are pro-Jewish, whatever that might mean to us. I have also been in the homes of Hasidim who could not have been more gracious and hospitable. Really, the only negative experience I've had was in Mea Sharim, when rocks were thrown at me because my arms weren't covered. However, as you know, in Israel, they do make up a tiny portion, but are very much represented in government. I do know there were heated arguements with Hasidim, because they wanted Israel to observe to a T, including no flights coming in on Saturdays (the heaviest incoming tourist day), which was vetoed, and did not want an army or any fighting, no matter what, because that goes against the laws. Of course, that was shot down, too. It is interesting to note that they insisted their sons be exempted from the army, but now, their sons want to pull their weight and are taking up arms, in spite of their parents. I think I posted this before, but there is a dislike for the Orthodox in Israel, by a lot of Israeli's, for these and other reasons. ( we sacrifice our sons, so why can't you, we are tired of pulling your weight, we resent that you think Israel is meant only for you, and that you want us to cater to you, kind of thing). I suppose there will always be a debate of this sort, but, we are all Jews and believe in that, so, for me, that's enough.

shiva

08-04-2002, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by shiva

Raven, remember when the Berlin wall ccame down? There were quite a few people who were very worried about that, and rightly so. Incidences of Neo Nazism went up. Then there were others who saw it as a positive, and I could not fathom the fact that some of those people saw the whole reunification issue not as an issue at all, or else were very happy about it. Just hearing what the pro-pals are saying and believing makes me stand on guard. If one person can get through to just one other, that's a good start. Don't give up.

"How catholics look at Jews...Inquries into Italian, Spanish and French teaching methods", Claire Huchet Bishop. "The destruction of the european Jews" Raul Hilberg. Good insights.

raven

08-04-2002, 07:46 AM

Paranoid...PARANOID??..Between 1940-1945 my community was essenlly CULLED. We lost approx. between 1/3 to almost 1/2 of all the Jews on the face of the Earth. And thats the facts. The charge of Paranoid is a just a tactic to keep Jews from objecting to what they begin to notice as the SAME OLD ATTITUDES. The World stood by and knew very well exactly what was happening. 1930's and on were NOT the Middle Ages. People were writing letters, calling their relatives in other countries, using Western Union. Jews that "got it" and left arrived in England and the US ..telling their first hand accused us of what happened. What did the World do? Pretended that we were exaggurating..and called us Paranoid.. I claim it is an antisememtic to use this Paranoid. charge on us.

And whats happening now? A total REPLAY of the same thing. Replete with claims of Pananoia and exagguration. The more things change..the more they stay the same. The players and alliances are even the same.

Shiva: I watched that wall come down...and everyone cheering..and I said to myself...SELF..this ISNT good. I made a bet with myself just how long it would take for the Nazis to start up again. I thought..2 weeks..I lost my bet with myself. I understand that within a couple of DAYS...it had started once again. Shhhhh...dont anybody actually say anything..but EVERYONE is watching nice old...reformed old Germany verrrry closely. And rightly so. Like there isnt a lonnng history with these people.

Good G-d..I am watching Jews pretend that they dont know history and who was involved and who knew what and when they knew it..and how they were just delighted to let matters take their cource. I WILL keep talking about it. I WILL notice that George Bush and his family (involved with the Nazis..before, during and after the War...and now involved deeply with the Arab World..including IRAQ). Gee. Guess the PATTERN of behavior doesnt seem to reach the brains of some people.

Im not making the mistake those trusting Jews did in Germany. They couldnt imagine their friends and neighbors would stand by and or participate. They couldnt imagine the EVIL of the REST of the World who let it go on ....NOT me...and Shiva...thank G-d not you and maybe more of us.

Talking about the RAT LINE...and the CHURCH..is for another time...except that asked to open its archives so that we could see what acutally happened..the Chruch is stonewalling and I heard now they have actually refused....another time for that sorry story. Trust...are YOU ALL Kidding? Read up on what actually happened.

elke

08-04-2002, 08:13 AM

Yes, it drives me batty when Northlander etal keep insisting that "Israel is no danger of getting destroyed". There is always that danger, with any country - and especially with one as precariously placed as Israel. These good people are indeed in denial, along with those Jews who agree with them.

The agreements with the Christian conservatives are a somewhat different story. What worries me about them is the price of their support: not so much the massive conversions, but the political agenda they have. US is a Christian country, no two ways about it. I don't have a major problem with Christmas being a national holiday, but the separation of church and state is not something to be toyed with, IMO. It is essential to keep this principle as pure as possible, and observe it in all things.

raven

08-04-2002, 08:32 AM

THANK YA...Elke..THANK YA...Shiva...From the bottom of my little Jewish Heart and BRAIN .....Somewhere someone hasnt parked their brains...and is questioning the COST ...Whats the COST??? of silence and pretneding we didnt go thru what we went thru...AND that it wasnt the FIRST TIME..It was just the MOST SUCCESSFUL attempt at erricating us. Good..G-d Almighty...

And whats the COST of support for Israel from American Fundamentalists? What do American Jews have to NOT be vocal on? What policies do we have to agree with in the US? Gosh..cant imagine what the expect payback for support is supposed to be...How bout.. Abolishing ABORTION...how bout No Separation of Church and State in School and in the Workplace? How bout a huge "wish list" of the Right...Utlra or just the Right.

Notice..just a teensy weensy little example of the real attitutdes..France..and their more than 300 incidents of Anitismemtic Attacks..and WE...are being threatened if we dare mention it...THE MORE THINGS CHANGE...THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME....

The US is essentially Christian. SO is most of Europe...Islam has 23??? Countries. India is Hindu...China is whatever.....The World STILL cant tolerate ONE measily little Jewish Country...And thats the truth of the matter.

raven

08-04-2002, 08:39 AM

Elke...Im expecting what I call an "OOPS"..The Arab World will do a pretty good job of attacking Israel..fast with G-d knows what..and the World will go "OPPS...so sorry..didnt know about it.. Crocodile tears shed....anyone STILL alive there can maaaybe come here."

L@mplighterM

08-04-2002, 09:10 AM

About to days ago I/we were hosts to an Orthodox Jews one on leave from the IDF. They all seemed like decent down to earth human beings to me and I believe they could/would make good emissaries wherever they went.

Posted by Raven:

Paranoid...PARANOID??..Between 1940-1945 my community was essenlly CULLED. We lost approx. between 1/3 to almost 1/2 of all the Jews on the face of the Earth. And thats the facts. The charge of Paranoid is a just a tactic to keep Jews from objecting to what they begin to notice as the SAME OLD ATTITUDES. The World stood by and knew very well exactly what was happening. 1930's and on were NOT the Middle Ages. People were writing letters, calling their relatives in other countries, using Western Union. Jews that "got it" and left arrived in England and the US ..telling their first hand accused us of what happened. What did the World do? Pretended that we were exaggurating..and called us Paranoid.. I claim it is an antisememtic to use this Paranoid. charge on us.

Knowing what is know to date Jews would have to be completely nuts to trust ALL Christians. History has thought us a lesson as it should.

In this society of $ 5,000.00 suits, manicured fingernails and plastic it's easy to become complacent and imagine that a great evil won?t sweep through our society again ethnically cleansing undesirables.

Many of us knew or suspected that an event like 9/11 was around the corner and yet were stunned when our Paranoia turned to fact. It wasn?t a premonition that made us know it was history.

A question came to my mind.

You?re in a crowd of 10 Palestinians in the WB or GS statistically 80% support terrorism. Who should you trust? I wouldn?t trust any.

Another question.

Which Christians should Jews have trusted in Germany years prior to the war and during the war? They shouldn?t have trusted any in my opinion and instead of handing in their weapons in to the authorities in 1938 they should have used them against their tormentors.

Has Christianity become a trustworthy religion in the last 50- 60 years? I don?t think so.

Mediocrates

08-04-2002, 09:21 AM

Which Christians should Jews have trusted in Germany years prior to the war and during the war? They shouldn?t have trusted any in my opinion and instead of handing in their weapons in to the authorities in 1938 they should have used them against their tormentors.

Jehovah's Witnesses were also sent to the camps. Unlike the Jews though all they had to do was a sign a piece of paper disavowing themselves of their religion and they could go free. As a matter of record it is believed that none of them signed the paper. Many survived and helped others in the camps to survive as well. I remember reading a diary of a young woman (really a child of 11) who was in the Auschwitz in 1945 and had been there for several months. It was close to the end and everything was horrible. The young woman, who did survive, wrote "At this point I feel my faith is challenged".

There is not one person in a ten thousand who is that strong.

If that is the person who supports Israel I want to meet all of them.

Mediocrates

08-04-2002, 09:24 AM

Of maybe they're not what you think of when you think Christian Right.

raven

08-04-2002, 09:28 AM

AND..We thank the people that REALLY...did help. In the sceme of things..you can count them on one hand.

Newist little scam..everybody and their third cousin in Europe were HELPERS and HIDERS of Jews. Oh..give me a break.

Think we could have a movie made where THAT wanst the storyline..the Helpers?? How bout that?

Boy..if you cant acknowledge just what happened...I f..give up. NNot 6 Milliion..only...Amost HALF of US in the ENTIRE WORLD...Let it sink IN..

Read Loftus's Book...Make your blood run cold and wake you up..This isnt his OPINION..It come from recently delassified information from many Countries.

Do we get to be upset about it..maybe when there are oh...1000 of us left? Would THAT be the time to face the facts? And WHO did this to us? AND who is involved in doing this to us once again. Yep..Soon as Palistine is set up as a formal and legal state..they will surely drop their dream of cleansing the area of Jews..Right.....World knows..and is watching...and helping the Terrorists...SHEESH.

raven

08-04-2002, 09:34 AM

ONE COST..Elke, Shiva, Teacup, Lamp...is NOT to say what Im saying OUTLOUD...that is. Cost is too high...

L@mplighterM

08-04-2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Of maybe they're not what you think of when you think Christian Right.

I don’t really believe that you can take a knife and surgically slice Christianity so much to the left and so much to the right and we’ll leave this piece in the center.

I fully acknowledge that there’s support for Israel from within the Christian community. I firmly believe that the majority of Christians believe that it’s strictly a land issue in the ME. I do not.

If there’s Christians that are willing to support Israel then let it be so but be wary of the motives and the cost.

If I were expected that the Christian right would/will support Israel to the dying end I would consider myself an idiot.

Do I think that ALL Christians are evil? No! Do I think that SOME Christians are evil? Yes!

raven

08-04-2002, 10:16 AM

Lamp...and everyone...There are Christians that believe that Israel is...and has always been the Country of Jews. Certainly there are. There are people within the Christian Community..that want to help...Israel to just BE..with no adjenda..politcal or religious. I should say that.

BUT..(here comes the BUT)..there are way too many in that Community that have OTHER adjendas ...Political and Religious. Thats just the facts....

We have to keep in mind that we dont compromise our values and Israel's identity ( ONE F--n little Coutnry in the Whole of the entire World) just to get some help and acceptance. We are still citizens of other Countries..we have the obligation to not sell out..for a promise of aid ...

Im proud to say that we have always tried to keep the issues of OTHERS in mind...even when it costs US--even when the people we are helping dont like us.....

Lamp: Heres where Ive gotton to.. Jews..get yourself whatever you have to thats legal..to protect yourslef. So much for complete Gun Control Laws. (In case someone missed it..for about 7-8 years..Islam has been calling for the MURDER of JEWS around the world) HELLOOOOO. Lets NOT make stupid mistakes again and NOT believe what people SAY...People SAY what they mean... Jews...pay attench..to the never ending hatred of the Arab World..This isnt a new thing...Good G-d..its been going on for AGES... Americans...this whole thing is really directed at OUR America. Israel is just the first bite. Guess Canada is next..and of course Europe..(if Europe hasnt been coopeted already)..This is the continuation of the Crusades...thats EXACTLY what this is. Interesting that most of the Christian World is also in denial...What a mistake...Dont say we didnt warn ya.

Teacake

08-04-2002, 10:24 AM

I have a feeling Raven isn't saying ALL christians, but the thousands of splinter groups who are very active in pushing to erase the division of church and state in America. I have seen on many many forums that christians feel they ALLOW us to be at home here.

How many of you know that it was in fact a Jew who helped to finance the Revolutionary War. Without Hiam Soloman, the British might have won. Ever read about him in American history class? Just remember many christains believe that they are allowing us to call America home. Not all of course, but too many for my comfort.

And Raven is correct, these splinter groups are working double time in Israel to claim it as theirs, as many, too many, belive jesus canceled out the convenant with G-d and the Jewish people, and transfered it to the christians. They discuss this as proof in the NT mathew book. Many christians see us as their tool to claim Israel. Not all. But far too many. Most of my friends are your decent everyday christians, however I know some fanatic christians and they are the one who believe the hype.

All in all, it is the fanatics who cause trouble everywhere and the fanatics who seem to have the upper hand politically, globally these days.

shiva

08-04-2002, 05:08 PM

I don't think anyone is saying ALL Christians. But the problem is, no one wears a sign that states their intentions, or whether they are really friend or foe. It is not wise, in this case, to accept until proven otherwise. This has been done so many times before, that when the "otherwise" came, it was too late. And paranoia is not, across the board, a negative or dillusionary state of mind. It is only so WHEN THERE IS NO HISTORY TO BASE IT ON. In this case, I don't think the Jews are paranoid enough. I think it was aptly stated when it was said "do I think all Christians are evil, no. Do I think some are, yes." And therein is the problem, as stated above. Evil is not , at first, or until the agenda is reached, obvious. This is why Jews must watch and listen closely, and keep watching. We must gather all the information we can from all sources out there. We must heed the sage advice passed down from generation to generation, DO NOT FORGET THE LESSONS OF HISORY, OR IT WILL REPEAT ITSELF. We now have a point of reference for the worst that can happen. The Jews in Hitler's clutches did not. Roosevelt sent the Jews back to their deaths, and he knew what he was sending them back to. This was all because of the isolationist view of America at the time, it was not considered POLITICALLY savvy to let the Jews in. This kind of betrayal is unforgivable, and a good lesson. Even after 1945 there was a Jewish Quota. Just because the president of Harvard Universiy is Jewish (an amazing rebuttle to the East-coast establishment), don't think that the Jews can relax. Israel is always in danger of being destroyed. Yes, during the 3rd Reich, there were some wonderful Christians who saved lives, and some not so wonderful who saved lives. Some demanded, in exchange, everything the Jew had. Some were truly human. But the decent people were found by default. I don't think any Jew could have pointed a finger and said they were sure this or that non-Jewish person would help. Still, on the scale of justice, the antisemeitc acts towards the Jews would easily outweigh the good. Raven, Teacake, Lamp, Elke, even though it seems we are alone, there are people out there who are not complacent and are watching very, very closely, what is going on. Please believe me when I say not everyone is blind, and that there is strength.

L@mplighterM

08-04-2002, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by shiva
I don't think anyone is saying ALL Christians. But the problem is, no one wears a sign that states their intentions, or whether they are really friend or foe. It is not wise, in this case, to accept until proven otherwise. This has been done so many times before, that when the "otherwise" came, it was too late. And paranoia is not, across the board, a negative or dillusionary state of mind. It is only so WHEN THERE IS NO HISTORY TO BASE IT ON. In this case, I don't think the Jews are paranoid enough. I think it was aptly stated when it was said "do I think all Christians are evel, no. Do I think some are, yes." And therein is the problem, as stated above. Evil is not , at first, or until the agenda is reached, obvious. This is why Jews must watch and listen closely, and keep watching. We must gather all the information we can from all sources out there. We must heed the sage advice passed down from generation to generation, DO NOT FORGET THE LESSONS OF HISORY, OR IT WILL REPEAT ITSELF. We now have a point of reference for the worst that can happen. The Jews in Hitler's clutches did not. Roosevelt sent the Jews back to their deaths, and he knew what he was sending them back to. This was all because of the isolationist view of America at the time, it was not considered POLITICALLY savvy to let the Jews in. This kind of betrayal is unforgivable, and a good lesson. Even after 1945 there was a Jewish Quota. Just because the president of Harvard Universiy is Jewish (an amazing rebuttle to the East-coast establishment), don't think that the Jews can relax. Israel is always in danger of being destroyed. Yes, during the 3rd Reich, there were some wonderful Christians who saved lives, and some not so wonderful who saved lives. Some demanded, in exchange, everything the Jew had. Some were truly human. But the decent people were found by default. I don't think any Jew could have pointed a finger and said they were sure this or that non-Jewish person would help. Still, on the scale of justice, the antisemeitc acts towards the Jews would easily outweigh the good. Raven, Teacake, Lamp, Elke, even though it seems we are alone, there are people out there who are not complacent and are watching very, very closely, what is going on. Please believe me when I say not everyone is blind, and that there is strength.

Now it's my turn to throw the seeds of praise in your direction.

L@mplighterM

08-04-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by raven
Lamp...and everyone...There are Christians that believe that Israel is...and has always been the Country of Jews. Certainly there are. There are people within the Christian Community..that want to help...Israel to just BE..with no adjenda..politcal or religious. I should say that.

BUT..(here comes the BUT)..there are way too many in that Community that have OTHER adjendas ...Political and Religious. Thats just the facts....

We have to keep in mind that we dont compromise our values and Israel's identity ( ONE F--n little Coutnry in the Whole of the entire World) just to get some help and acceptance. We are still citizens of other Countries..we have the obligation to not sell out..for a promise of aid ...

Im proud to say that we have always tried to keep the issues of OTHERS in mind...even when it costs US--even when the people we are helping dont like us.....

Lamp: Heres where Ive gotton to.. Jews..get yourself whatever you have to thats legal..to protect yourslef. So much for complete Gun Control Laws. (In case someone missed it..for about 7-8 years..Islam has been calling for the MURDER of JEWS around the world) HELLOOOOO. Lets NOT make stupid mistakes again and NOT believe what people SAY...People SAY what they mean... Jews...pay attench..to the never ending hatred of the Arab World..This isnt a new thing...Good G-d..its been going on for AGES... Americans...this whole thing is really directed at OUR America. Israel is just the first bite. Guess Canada is next..and of course Europe..(if Europe hasnt been coopeted already)..This is the continuation of the Crusades...thats EXACTLY what this is. Interesting that most of the Christian World is also in denial...What a mistake...Dont say we didnt warn ya.

You're right on the money 100% the way I see it.

Mediocrates

08-05-2002, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

Now it's my turn to throw the seeds of praise in your direction.

Ach!, please keep the size of the quote down in relation to the post, please.

shiva

08-05-2002, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Teacake
I have a feeling Raven isn't saying ALL christians, but the thousands of splinter groups who are very active in pushing to erase the division of church and state in America. I have seen on many many forums that christians feel they ALLOW us to be at home here.

How many of you know that it was in fact a Jew who helped to finance the Revolutionary War. Without Hiam Soloman, the British might have won. Ever read about him in American history class? Just remember many christains believe that they are allowing us to call America home. Not all of course, but too many for my comfort.

And Raven is correct, these splinter groups are working double time in Israel to claim it as theirs, as many, too many, belive jesus canceled out the convenant with G-d and the Jewish people, and transfered it to the christians. They discuss this as proof in the NT mathew book. Many christians see us as their tool to claim Israel. Not all. But far too many. Most of my friends are your decent everyday christians, however I know some fanatic christians and they are the one who believe the hype.

All in all, it is the fanatics who cause trouble everywhere and the fanatics who seem to have the upper hand politically, globally these days.

I'm bring up the whole message, in case some haven't read, and I think each point is valid. First, Elke, you are absolutely correct to mention the issue of church and state. This is of paramount concern. That this is such a hot issue in America with the fanatical groups, the Bush family among them, what would that mean for Israel? The point raised, your's, Raven's, Teacake's, Lamp's, is the cost worth it? Is it something that can be lived with? Or does it negate everything Israel is supposed to stand for? That Teacake brings up Haim Soloman, and the ignorance of his role in the revolution, is just another example of why reading, and knowing the history is so important. Teacake is right to say that it is the fanatics who are the concern. And they do see us as a tool for a personal claim. The ones who don't, and of course, there are those, are complacent, and don't really have an interest, one way or the other. Most of them. So, that is hardly any help. As we all can see, someone, a group, anyone, who is fanatical enough, will fight until the last drop of blood has been spilled. That is one of the reasons, I believe, they have the upper hand. The Jews have to meet any kind of anti-Israel fanatical agenda, apparent or not, with force, not with "thank you , how kind." Yes, instead of turning whatever weapons the Jews had, over to the Nazi's, they should have used them. But, that was not acceptable, as we have always been a religion that has advocated non-violence. Well, Hitler showed us the folly of those ways. How strong can the Jews be? Israel aside, which in strength, is a miracle, start with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, and what we were able to do with a few pistols and homemade bombs against the German tanks, army, ammunition, for 2 months, people, for 2 months we kept them out. I am in touch with these Christian fanatical beliefs every day, and I listen and watch, and I hear what is being said. And it isn't good. Whenever you hear sentiments expressed against the Jews, in any way, make it known, make your voice heard, report, do not let anybody get away with it. Now, I fully expect the wrath of some of the members of this forum, but I still urge everyone to think. What price do we pay? Nobody is giving anything for nothing in return, and just what is the expected return?

raven

08-05-2002, 03:43 PM

Oh my: Shiva and Teacake say it so much better than I do. So all I can say is read and learn.

Why is it that Jews thirst to LEARN everything except..what the rest of the entire world believes in. What they believe in religiously ..essentially gets turned into the secular values by which they live..that turns into LAW that we ALL have to live by. If we dont pay attention and LEARN exactly what they believe, then how uninformed are we? Had the German Jews learned a little MORE about what their neighbors actually believed, their religion and culture..they might have been more prepared then they were.

We seem to always be so shocked when we see the rise of antisemetism...we are so unprepared for it..We wouldnt be IF we went into a Christian School..opened a textbook and actually READ what is said in there about us. What a novel idea...How many of us have ever seen the Textbooks in Christian Schools? Remember now...WE along with all other Americans are about to give OUR tax money to the writing, publishing, distribution, and use of these books. We are quietly going to be paying for the distortions of our own history.

Here comes the Cost tie in...The Cost of support for Israel from Conservative Christians..will be self censorship on this very issue. OH..some Jews will fight..but other Jews will remain silent on this issue so as NOT to irritate our Christian neighbors...We are thinking...they may not be so supportive of Israel. This is called SPIRITUAL BLACKMAIL..Hellooooo.

We are and have been quietly blackmailed for years now. I resent it..alot.

raven

08-05-2002, 03:53 PM

Shiva: I have to say you are completly positively totally...right on what Jews must do when presented with large Alpha Groups..that are out to (say it straight out) ELIMINATE us from the earth. Its time to behave like any other group that intends to SURVIVE. We need to stop pussy footing around and act like a group that means to survive. If it takes force..it takes force. We would rather NOT do that..but if it is forced upon us..then like with other endeavors, we can excell in THAT also.

We see where passive , non-violent behavior got us 60 years ago. We need to learn from that and NOT make that mistake EVER again.

Should we be confronted with ANY type of fanatical behavior..then we have to FIGHT BACK. NEVER be SILENT. Silence and Passivity =Invitation to Attack Jews in any way..

Gun Control...NOT a good idea for Jews...or havent we heard that Islam has issued an order for Moslems to kill JEWS..all over the world. I say...Learn how to protect yourself..and IF the time comes..LOCK and LOAD......Protecting yourself isnt Rocket Science. We CAN learn to do it and do it well. Thank G-d for the Israelis..showing us that we can..IF we have to.

Never Again..means just what it says. NEVER AGAIN!!! And be able to back these WORDS up with ACTION...

danholo

08-05-2002, 03:55 PM

raven,

Your posts spew a little "Jews for Jesus" sentiment.

"Go and read what Christians say about us."

Hey, I live in a Christian country and so do many of us here on this board. I think we know what Christians say about us and Israel. Sometimes it's negative sometimes it's positive.
Our arch-bishop Jukka Paarma in Finland made some very anti-Israel remarks in his official statement towards Israeli policy.
It caused and uproar in our Jewish community in Helsinki.
Most religious Christians are very pro-Israel though.
This is what they say: "Jews are the holy people", "Jews are the chosen people", "God has a special place in his hearts towards Jews.", "Israel is the Holy Land and belongs to the Jews."
Some extreme Christians come to our synagogue often on Shabat and wish to "come and pray for Israel."
Nice people though, got to admit.
We have very little to no White Power Christians here.

raven

08-05-2002, 04:06 PM

Dan: I must be doing the worst job ever in the history of communication.... IF you think Im Jews For Jesus. Oh my G-d..NO. Im an American Jewish girl..now and till the last nano second of my life.

I think most Jews have a general idea of what Christians believe. I think it goes as far as the story of Jesus ...learned at Christmas Time and at Easter Time. Beyond that..most Jews have little interest and knowledge about what the NT actually says to Christians and ABOUT Jews.

I ..happen to have grown up in an non Jewish City..and in a non Jewish neighborhood...with my friends all non Jewish..and so in everyday life...I was able to learn quite a bit MORE about Christianity. I went to Church each week with my Catholic girlfriend when she had to go for Confession. Learned QUITE a bit as I sat there in the last row..waiting for her to finish. Later my SHul made our class go to about 30 different Chruches to learn just what the rest of our neighbors actually believed. It was ILLUMINATING. So much more to Christianity than just beliving in Jesus as the Messiah. So different from Judiasm...and most of us DO NOT KNOW THIS..Do NOT know the differences in values and outlook and culture..

More later.

elke

08-05-2002, 04:11 PM

People are people, and some are good, some are bad, and some are indifferent. Panicking has never helped anyone one whit. However, neither has complacency.

There may be issues and votes that can be compromised in order to retain support: that's politics, quid pro quo. There are some things, however, that cannot be compromised under any circumstances. IMO, the separation of church and state is such an issue. In fact, other than support for Israel it's the only one I can think of (it's a big one though, with all sorts of ramifications: from abortion to school prayer).

What we must do is keep our eyes peeled and try to analyze all the motivations and implications of any given alliance. We must try to get as straight of an answer from people as possible, and measure it against what the common sense tells us they may want. We cannot go into any agreements with our eyes closed.

danholo

08-05-2002, 04:16 PM

Believe me, I know what Christianity is all about. It's ideas are all out good but they have been exploited by the Catholic church since it's birth until the end of the 2ndWW.

Just to let you know, I've visited Churches and my relatives on my father's side are all Christian. My father is Jewish though.

raven

08-05-2002, 04:29 PM

Lamp: Its NEVER ALL...that cause trouble and are the bad guys. It sometimes doesnt even have to be a majority. It is usually a hard core substantial minority..WITH the majority keeping silent. We know that already..from recent history.

All Christians are not actively Missionizing..arent actively antisememtic, arent actively anti Israel...but this is such a large group that even a dedicated minority that ARE doing these things, having these feelings..can get the JOB done.

Plus..there are some bedrock beliefs in Chrisitanity that in and of themsleves put Jews in constant and never ending jepardy. The charge of "Diocide" is entrenched in Chrisitaniity. Diocide is: Jews..killed...G-d....That idea pounded into minds over and over, year after year, decade after decade..over 1700 or so hundred years..has it effects. No doubt about it. No hiding from this fact.

I dont think Jews understand that we are thought of, by our nice and friendly neighbors, as people that actually MURDERED G-d. We didnt -of course..and so we either dismiss this or minimize the effect of this. It is a mistake to do this.

A little example that happened in MY family. My uncle "going with" a lady for 16 years...and engaged finally..found out..that his wife to be..thought him part of a people that Murdered Jesus. It popped out of her mouth one day in the car at Easter time. All this time...this girlfriend ** OF 16 years...kind of forgot? to mention that she thought this...Isnt that ever so special???

L@mplighterM

08-05-2002, 05:12 PM

Jews especially should never become complacent and think that the past is behind them and there will never be another holocaust. I say Jews especially because they are targeted by Radical Islam and of course neo Nazi skinheads throughout the world. That?s a fact!

I?ve known a lot of Christians in my lifetime and personally I believe many of them aren?t there in the head.

Many Christians minimize the murder of a child by making statements like ?Oh Well! He/She is an angel in heaven now? I can well imagine Christians making the same statements about Jews. The only thing is that a Jewish child killed by terrorists would most likely end up in hell or purgatory according to them. That?s because they aren?t Christened or Baptized.

I?m an atheist (atheist, Jew, Buddhist, etc.=heathen) and many Christians consider me garbage would I trust them with my life? No Way! Anyone that believes individuals with a mentality like that would save anyone other than themselves is kidding themselves.

Quite frankly I find that kind of reasoning obscene.

This killing Jesus business is odd after all how do you kill G_d? Correct me if I?m wrong but according to my understanding Jesus=G_d and G_d=Jesus.
Strange mathematics but that?s what they believe.

Does it bother me that many Christians consider me inferior because of my beliefs? Do I think that a Christian would ever save me from a gas chamber? Perhaps but I wouldn?t count on it because I think the odds age against it.

I apologize to any Christian that doesn?t fit into the above category.

shiva

08-05-2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Jews especially should never become complacent and think that the past is behind them and there will never be another holocaust. I say Jews especially because they are targeted by Radical Islam and of course neo Nazi skinheads throughout the world. That?s a fact!

I?ve known a lot of Christians in my lifetime and personally I believe many of them aren?t there in the head.

Many Christians minimize the murder of a child by making statements like ?Oh Well! He/She is an angel in heaven now? I can well imagine Christians making the same statements about Jews. The only thing is that a Jewish child killed by terrorists would most likely end up in hell or purgatory according to them. That?s because they aren?t Christened or Baptized.

I?m an atheist (atheist, Jew, Buddhist, etc.=heathen) and many Christians consider me garbage would I trust them with my life? No Way! Anyone that believes individuals with a mentality like that would save anyone other than themselves is kidding themselves.

Quite frankly I find that kind of reasoning obscene.

This killing Jesus business is odd after all how do you kill G_d? Correct me if I?m wrong but according to my understanding Jesus=G_d and G_d=Jesus.
Strange mathematics but that?s what they believe.

Does it bother me that many Christians consider me inferior because of my beliefs? Do I think that a Christian would ever save me from a gas chamber? Perhaps but I wouldn?t count on it because I think the odds age against it.

I apologize to any Christian that doesn?t fit into the above category.

IB, let's talk about freedom of speech. Yes, we,in America, have freedom of speech. But with that comes responsibility. IMO any kind of freedom comes with responsibility. No one is allowed to incite hate and violence against another people because they feel like it. Violence is only called for in self-defense. You still cannot yell"fire" in a crowded movie theatre. And that is what missionizing accomplishes. Too many people believe that stuff. Danolo, you said it yourself, that's what you hear people in your country SAY. What do they say when you are not around? What do they do? If the Jews want Israel to be free, than we must be responsible ourselves and guard it. I will paraphrase Raven, as she made the salient point of policy and law. 'Our present crisis is not just a political crisis, but also a crisis of politics.'--- " Karel Kosik, 'Our Present Crisis". But focus, what is the payoff, what are we going to have to give away of ourselves? Just how much will it take to say enough, no more, not ever? Are we willing to give away and/or compromise our identities? Do not listen to the words of these groups when they say they love Israel, listen to what they think Israel means to them and what they think it should be. If you read between the lines, and listen to what is not said that should be said, you will hear the real meaning every time. Do not ignore any anti-Jewish act. 'If nothing else is left, one must scream. Silence is the real crime against humanity.'Nadezhda Mandelstam, "Hope Against Hope".

cerulean

08-13-2002, 10:15 PM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1028814689920
Aug. 13, 2002
Jews, Christians march in Old City of Jerusalem in support of Israel
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

JERUSALEM - Jews and Christians joined hands in a march through the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem Tuesday, showing support for Israel after nearly two years of Palestinian-Israeli fighting. . . .

===========
http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/225/metro/Catholics_reject_evangelization_of_Jews+.shtml
Catholics reject evangelization of Jews

By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff, 8/13/2002

The Catholic Church, which spent hundreds of years trying forcibly to convert Jews to Christianity, has come to the conclusion that it is theologically unacceptable to target Jews for evangelization, according to a statement issued yesterday by organizations representing US Catholic bishops and rabbis from the country's two largest Jewish denominations. . . .

shiva

08-13-2002, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1028814689920
Aug. 13, 2002
Jews, Christians march in Old City of Jerusalem in support of Israel
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

JERUSALEM - Jews and Christians joined hands in a march through the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem Tuesday, showing support for Israel after nearly two years of Palestinian-Israeli fighting. . . .

===========
http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/225/metro/Catholics_reject_evangelization_of_Jews+.shtml
Catholics reject evangelization of Jews

By Michael Paulson, Globe Staff, 8/13/2002

The Catholic Church, which spent hundreds of years trying forcibly to convert Jews to Christianity, has come to the conclusion that it is theologically unacceptable to target Jews for evangelization, according to a statement issued yesterday by organizations representing US Catholic bishops and rabbis from the country's two largest Jewish denominations. . . .

Yes, the Pope has been rethinking, or had been rethinking the role Catholicism has played in the persecution of the Jews. So now everything is ok? What about the Christian right, who view Catholics as "not real Christians"? Same for the Babtists, who comprise a lot of the moral majority.

shiva

08-13-2002, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Yes, the Pope has been rethinking, or had been rethinking the role Catholicism has played in the persecution of the Jews. So now everything is ok? What about the Christian right, who view Catholics as "not real Christians"? Same for the Baptists, who comprise a lot of the moral majority. I still don't trust Catholics. I suppose, after all they have done, it would take years for that to occur.

cerulean

08-14-2002, 01:26 AM

I do wonder if the timing of this announcement is meant to draw attention away from other Catholic Church problems. In any event, even if there has been a complete shift in church doctrines, it may take some time to filter down to the population.

shiva

08-14-2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by cerulean
I do wonder if the timing of this announcement is meant to draw attention away from other Catholic Church problems. In any event, even if there has been a complete shift in church doctrines, it may take some time to filter down to the population.

Good insight! Didn't think of that, but it makes sense.

raven

11-22-2002, 11:41 AM

I DO care what the Thology down the line is. The Theology is based on Revelations where 2/3rds of Jews in Israel are Dead...AND the other third of Jews are converted. Thats not the senerio I want or Israel I am supporting.

There are 500 different separate Christian Organizations, fully funded and dedicated to ONLY Missionizing and Converting Jews. No one has done a study on this -the funds and how much and where the money comes from and what the tactics are..that they are employing. One tactic is to flood Israel as newly converted Jews and tthen just convert back and go on to missionize there..and VOTE. Israel is just learning this and scrambling to take steps to stop these deceptive practices. (more to this story)

As to Mormons..unfortunately few years ago, relatives of Holocaust Survivors found out their their relatives had been "converted" by the Mormon Church..without the person there, (they were killed in the ovans) and without notice to the families. There was a huge flap .over this involuntary conversion of Jews (and everyone else) and promises to stop the practice...who knows if it has been really stopped or gone underground. Can you imagine? Converting people after they are dead? without their permission??? Unbelievable!!What is THAT? And they are not Missionizing to Jews AT THIS TIME, cause we complained and caught them at this very nasty and underhanded practice...but they still try in Israel...and because we donht let them Missionize to us freely, this particular group is quite PRO ARAB.

IlyaFurman

11-25-2002, 04:24 PM

People really dont know the extent that the Christians are trying to convert Jews in America and Israel its in cathrophic proportions, they label them messanic jews, give me a break.

Alfred

12-12-2002, 07:59 PM

Mormons have the largest genealogy library in the world and descendents can, if they want to, make their ancestors members of the church (on paper). It is up to the person in Heaven to decide if they accept the work or not. This sounds silly to those who do not believe in an afterlife but it makes sense if you believe that people on earth need to go through certain steps to progress once they are dead. Mormons believe that when we die we are organized into family units…some of which would go back thousands of years. Obviously, Uncle Fred the horse thief and murderer may not be located in the same place as the better behaved relatives.

When the Jewish Rabbi’s or whoever it was protested, the church took all those names off the database that we can access. So, if you went to LDS.org and checked into the genealogical library, you would not find those names. I believe they were East European lists from Poland, Germany etc.

For someone like me it is a bit of a pain that this happened, as I have Bushman’s in my past. We think however, that in Europe it was spelled Bushmann (with two “n’s”) which we are told is a Jewish spelling. So I would like to trace my ancestry back a bit farther than I can today. On one side of the family (going through England, to Normandy) I have been able to trace it back to the original Vikings in Normanday and thus back to AD 262. the Vikings kept very good records. It is facsinating and very addicting, genealogy that is.

As far as trying to convert Jews. Mormons, and probably all other Christian faiths have been told that it is illegal to try to convert Jews in Israel. We have agreed and the locals have been pleased with our keeping our word. We have a large educational center on the Mount of Olives. In the States there is no active attempt to convert Jews per se. If a missionary comes to your door, he doesn’t really know what you are.

I know of no attempt by Christians to become Jews and then sneak into Israel to change their spots. Maybe one or two. At least I have never heard about that.

Mormons believe that the Jews as a group will not believe in Christ until he actually shows up on the Mount of Olives as your Messiah. So there is no attempt at conversion. There is something of interest however, and that is the concept of the first and the last. The Jews were the first to received the Gospel in ancient times and will be the last to receive it during the last days. The Gentiles were the last to receive it in ancient times and will be the first to receive it in the last days.

Of the hundreds of Mormons I know, I only know one or two who support the Arabs. One of which studied Arabic in Jerusalem and has a one-sided view. He does plan to study Hebrew next but the education center has been closed for the Intifada.

raven

12-19-2002, 11:56 AM

It is extremely CREEPY for a Religion to have private data base with everyone names on it. (the Cover is that is it for Ancestry Research) Who said that the Morman Religion had ANY right to collect names without permission and compile a WORLD Wide Data Base? We dont like it when a our own Govnt has a data base, or business that we deal with VOLUTARILY has a Data Base..but an aggressive Missionizing Religion? NO. I am going to find out IF they ever had my and my family's name there and IF they dared to convert any of my relatives. The Data Base has NOT gone anywhere but UNDERGROUND.

And look ..here by the above post..These people DO NOT take kindly to being challanged. THEY are rather a secretive organization, even to their own members, and always resist the light shining on what they do. THEY choose to enter the lives of other than their own members by making this Data Base...and so they will have to live with the ever increasing consequences of breaching everyone Privacy WITHOUT their consent. ITS OUTRAGEOUS.

Mediocrates

12-19-2002, 02:16 PM

Actually the Federal Government relies on their DB. They keep better records. For example did you know that virtually all records of the 1880 US census are lost? Burned up in a fire. The Mormons have a great deal of primary and secondary sources that cover it.

raven

12-19-2002, 02:55 PM

M--they have NO BUSINESS WhatsoEVER collecting and keeping peoples names WITHOUT the getting permission. Look what this group ALREADY DID with the names. They Converted people..without their or their families permission.

AND I dont want the Govnt to have my name without my permission or IF they do, I want the Govnt to tell me what they intend to do with it..etc. I dont want the Govnt to ask a Religion to supply info on me... Geeze.

Most people dont like these Data Bases and their consequences on Privacy. ITs CREEPY. I dont like it. ITs a Religion keeping records on people..NOT their own people..That would be OK..but on everyone else. ICKY... I cant be the only person that thinks this is out of line. Can you imagine if somewhere there was a Jewish Data Base and we kept records on EVERYONE??? Course NOT.

minusthejihad

12-19-2002, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by raven
M--they have NO BUSINESS WhatsoEVER collecting and keeping peoples names WITHOUT the getting permission. Look what this group ALREADY DID with the names. They Converted people..without their or their families permission.

AND I dont want the Govnt to have my name without my permission or IF they do, I want the Govnt to tell me what they intend to do with it..etc. I dont want the Govnt to ask a Religion to supply info on me... Geeze.

Most people dont like these Data Bases and their consequences on Privacy. ITs CREEPY. I dont like it. ITs a Religion keeping records on people..NOT their own people..That would be OK..but on everyone else. ICKY... I cant be the only person that thinks this is out of line. Can you imagine if somewhere there was a Jewish Data Base and we kept records on EVERYONE??? Course NOT.

It's called http://www.jewwatch.com

Also, if you are an American citizen, you are already DBd with your social security number. Nowadays, its best to just stay in line, cause you're already watched.

Now, 50 years ago, this would be a valid fear, now, its too late. Speaking of, I'm going to go enter false information about classmates I didn't like at http://www.classmates.com! :D

raven

12-19-2002, 04:29 PM

I dont want a religion NOT MY OWN....keeping records on me..without my permission..PERIOD. Bad enough the Govnt does.. What will they DO with the information? Already abused the trust by converting DEAD Holocaust Victims..Cant get WORSE than THAT! Cant be more disrespectful that THAT!!!! Cant get lower that THAT! SHEESHHHH.

Mediocrates

12-19-2002, 07:22 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you, merely explaining what it looks like today.

Alfred

12-20-2002, 08:57 PM

Raven: you missed the operative word in my statement above. Only RELATIVES can join their families together, and it must be someone who died long ago. By the way, the DB basically says: John Doe, born 8/23 1678 Paris, France....died 4/15 1723 Berlin Germany. Son of Fred Doe and Mary Smith.

Today, the major purpose of the many DB's is to allow the world (read non-Mormon) to find their roots. Which is why it has been opened up via the net to anyone. Members like me, can tie their family together. Non Members like you can have fun and discover your heritage to an extent you may not have.

So Sister Raven. This is my secret, diabolical plan. If you are a relative of mine, I will just sit here and wait for you to die....then eventually I will FORCE you to become a Mormon. You will be sitting up there in Heaven...alongside Moses and Joshua and POOF, all of a sudden you will be a Mormon and caste down to hell. You will cry "wait" "it's not my fault" "some radical, fanatic christian entered my name on a family list and now you send me to hell? Saint Peter (or fill in the name) will shake his head and say that "so let it be written, so let it be done" and you will have no say in the matter for eternity. Sounds like a not very fair heaven to me:(

Well Raven, as I am compassionate, and because I am well placed in the evil, secretive Mormon society, I have deleted all families with the last name of RAVEN from the database. Oh crud. Was Raven your first or last name?

To be fair however, it wasn't necessary. Because as I said, when the Jewish leaders asked the church to delete the names that were on their DB, they did. What that means is that you will have a hard time tracking down your relatives should you desire to do so. As we do not have many folks of Jewish descent in the church you really don't need to fret about someone making you a Mormon.

Besides, as you are alive, all you need to do is talk to a missionary:) We could use some good Jewish blood in the church. Think of the Old Testament lessons you could teach! And you could still be kosher. But you may be talked into liking Jello and other evil Mormon substances. But don't fear. Neither I or any one else will try to convert you. Just say "no thanks" if they come to the door.

I was reading earlier posts on this thread. Someone said that Mormons overwhelmingly support Arabs. I have never heard anything so 180 degrees out of wack before. Hardly anyone I know (and I live in Utah) supports the Arabs....especially after 9-11. Sorry, but that idea is wrong. Most of us support Israel...I would say about 95%. Our support for Israel is not based upon converting them either. I can't speak for the other Christian sects however.

raven

12-22-2002, 11:50 AM

PERFECT: I-- couldnt have shown your REAL attitudes better than you just did. Jews..pay attention!!! I DARED..to object to another religion co-oping our DEAD relatives....and secretely (it WAS SECRET until uncovered) converting them and instead of SHAME over this discraceful practice and an abject heartfelt apology, you hear hostility and much more comming out of his mouth. (they dont like Jews to criticize them..thats NOT how the world works according to this Alpha Religion)[ Alpha Religions are Religions that have huge amounts of people and are predominant in many Countries. Alpha Religions are: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism...]

Can you image Jews converting others..without their knowledge or permission and what would happen to US if we did such an immoral thing? This practice can be termed "Spiritual Kidnapping".

And too bad you are INCOVENIENCED--poor thing, now you cant look up your distant Jewish relatives...We must all appologize to YOU for objecting to your Data Base and what you DID with our names..

Talk about NEGATING the our very existance. It is an ERASURE of us as the Jews our relatives ARE. UNbelievable....

AND THIS GUY HE.....is TICKED???? Gad zooks!!! Grand Mal Chuzba...

Alfred

12-22-2002, 05:14 PM

My goodness Raven....

If you cannot understand humor then you really need to sit back, relax and have a strong drink. Look at the trees outside; the flowers...listen to the birds...take a warm bath.

The world has a lot more important things to do than to persecute you.

I am not hostile, angry or upset. I really could care less if those names are on the list or not. If you are right about the after life then it doesn't matter, If I am right then you lose.

Good grief, look at your posts. Relax.

Merry Christmas....get some of that happy spirit in you. Life is too short to be ticked off at the world.

raven

12-24-2002, 11:39 AM

Afred ..You PATRONIZING and Disrespectul Posting on this Board is something I want others to notice. Instead of being ASAHAMED of the practice of stealing others identity..you are disinterested on our feelings., mininize the affect on us, and simply DONT CARE .We can exect the very same when it comes to the survival of the JEWISH State..Israel..... Dont be fooled by these empty and self serving words of support. IF you dont know you should know that this support is merely temporary...and with each group meant to fulfill their OWN storyline..NOT ours.

This discraceful incident by the Morman Church, has been burried. as usual...(if it was another Religion you would have NEVER heard the end of it) I want Jews to personally find out IF any of their relatives were secretely converted and IF SO...haul that Church into Court..to get publicity on this type of practice. Do it people..Your own relatives may have been involuntarily COVERTED. E Gad..this is criminal in my opinion. Whats also ciminal is the ignoring ot it... I do care..and Im not surprised that YOU Dont. TAKE NOTE PEOPLE. These are the REAL feelings.

abu afak

01-12-2003, 05:09 PM

SOME NEW DATA ON THE TOPIC: AND VERY GOOD

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 9, 2002

New Poll Shows Evangelical Christians Among Israel’s Strongest Supporters

Christian Support for Israel Based on Shared Values and Opposition to Terrorism, not Theology Related to End Times

WASHINGTON, D.C - Today Stand for Israel, a project of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, released the findings of a new Tarrance Group poll examining the extent to which different groups within the U.S. population support Israel, the basis for this support, and whether or not evangelical Christians share common values with Jews. To view an executive summary and the full poll results, please visit "Important News About Israel."

The poll’s findings were drawn from telephone interviews conducted Oct. 3-6, 2002 with more than 1,200 adults nationwide, including an over sampling of Jews and conservative Christians.

Highlights from the poll include:

· Not surprisingly, support for Israel is highest among American Jews (85%). However, support for Israel still exceeds 50% among other major religious groups in this country, including Baptists, Catholics, and Protestants. Fully 62% of conservative Christians who attend church regularly indicate that they support Israel, and this figure jumps to 77% among conservative Christian men.

· Evangelicals are most likely to indicate that they support Israel because of the strong relationship that Israel has developed with the United States – 56% point to the fact that Israel shares democratic values, is an important ally against terrorism, and is a safe haven for Jews from persecution.

· 80% of Americans say that the enemies of the U.S., such as Saddam Hussein and Al Queda, are also enemies of Israel.

· Jews are increasingly more likely to have a favorable view of George W. Bush, and 81% of Jews see Bush as a strong supporter of Israel.

“When comparing responses among evangelical Christians and Jews, the survey shows that these two groups share similar opinions and viewpoints on many issues, especially when it comes to Israel,” said Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, co-chairman of Stand for Israel. “After 25 years of working within the Christian community to encourage constructive dialogue with the Jewish community and support for Israel, this survey bears out my view that Christians are trustworthy and vital allies.”

“While the Jewish community harbor some degree of skepticism towards evangelical Christians, this poll shatters traditional stereotypes. The survey reveals that conservative Christians are strongly pro-Israel, share democratic values, and say that their primary theological reason for supporting Israel is to bless the Jewish people, not usher in the end times. It is my hope that this survey will lead to even greater dialogue and cooperation between Jews and Christians, beginning with their shared support for Israel.”

(more if you want) and EX FROM http://www.standforisrael.org/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Home

Teacake

01-12-2003, 05:16 PM

Abu, that's exactly what is being argued here. Are you aware that xians beleive they replaced the Jews and are in their belief system the New Chosen? We are being used by them to fulfill their agenda. Its not good, not good at all. Anyone who stands by Israel should not do it in the name of jesus or any other diety. People should do it because it is the right thing to do and it is for everyone's well being.

abu afak

01-12-2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Teacake
Abu, that's exactly what is being argued here. Are you aware that xians beleive they replaced the Jews and are in their belief system the New Chosen? We are being used by them to fulfill their agenda. Its not good, not good at all. Anyone who stands by Israel should not do it in the name of jesus or any other diety. People should do it because it is the right thing to do and it is for everyone's well being.

Yes, of course, I'm aware of the issues .. That's EXACTLY WHY I posted the article

What I posted was that support is Increasingly for Shared Values and NOT on 'End Times'/.....

. Please read the article.. That IS why I posted it.

And of course the alternative to Christian support of Isreal is?????

all not good.

Alfred

01-12-2003, 07:31 PM

Teacake:

I am not aware of Christians saying that they have "replaced" the Jews as the chosen people. I am not saying this is totally untrue...I just have never heard of it.

Christians may argue that most Jews have deserted their traditions....which many have; but that does not take away the fact that the Jews were part of the 12 Tribes of Israel...and the 12 Tribes of Israel made up what was called the Israelites; and it was the Israelites who were deemed the "chosen" of God.

But with the title "chosen" come many responsibilites. The state the Jews found themselves in after 70 AD can be attributed to their having deserted and turned away from their God. That is what most Christians believe. I think that most Christians would also agree that the non-religious or atheist Jews are no longer "chosen," but that is stating the obvious isn't it? How can one be the chosen of someone they don't believe in or care nothing about?

But to Abu's point. I agree that most Christians support Israel. Some for "end of times" reasons, but mostly because Christians believe in right and wrong, and most believe Israel has a "right" to live in peace on it's ancient land. You will find a lot of disagreement among Christians however, on issues such as who owns the West Bank. Some believe Israel should own all of ancient Israel, while others think 1967 borders are fine. This difference is probably depending on how politically conservative the Christian is.

Pat Buchanan is an interesting case. I knew his sister at one time. Pat is a Catholic and has very interesting views. I do not believe despite the media, that he is a Nazi. He is a nationalist for sure. America first and all. He does not believe in alliances that entangle America; and our relationship with Israel certainly entangles us. He says the same things about Europe, about Egypt, Kuwait and Korea for that matter. I disagreed with him about Gulf War One and about the war with Iraq. I do believe that he thinks Israel has a right to exist...and I believe he does not want it to dissapear. I think that he just doesn't want all these "questionable" entangling alliances. Something that George Washington warned us against. I can see some merit to that argument.

Frans_1

01-12-2003, 09:46 PM

I've wanted to respond to this for a while but had some trouble with my registration. Not to argue with anybody here. Only to express my position.

I'm from Hongkong. A non denominational Christian. I 'd call myself an Israel supporter though I can't do much. I know many Jewish people are very suspicious of Christian support because they think Christians who say they are on the side of Israel are out to convert their faith or hijack their tradition. I have seen mesages from Jewish people at various places, not including at this message forum, denouncing what they call "Chrisitian apocalyptic fantasy/dreams" .

Well, I have no such intention to evangelise. Nor any agenda . In simplest non religious terms, I support Israel between right and wrong, truth and falsehood. I think that Israel is on the right side of history (to borrow a phrase). This is usually when someone unbidded suddenly froths up at the mouth and blasts away about "evil Israel" - and of course, "evil USA". Amazing how often that happens and in any situation. Otherwise, the whole issue would not be to do with me to begin with because I am Chinese, not ME or Jewish.

In religious terms, I think it's best to leave the theology to be settled "then" rather than to force everyone to accept ones set of ideas.

As for "end times" it is best not to speculate on that and neglect the present. "End times" predictions or interpretations tend to be rather inaccurate.

The faith discussion is best kept separate from the secular discussion. Don't you think ?

I don't know what someone means by "xians". I am not a "xian" whatever that means. Just a plain Christian. I'm aware of the "replacement" theory .The Bible does not support this theory. Church (Christians) is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

There is a synagogue in Hongkong, right about where I live. I often walk past. A century old, it is a listed historic site. It serves the Jewish community here. I think there are about 1000 or so members. At most 2000. They seem to be mostly Americans in various professions. All living in the same middle class neighbourhood or district. I don't know anyone directly, only indirectly through friends and work. If anyone is interested, I can find and scan an old (approx10 years ago) magazine article about the community.

There is also a Mormon (Latter Day) Church down the road from the synagogue. (Hongkong is a small crowded city. ) They proselytise frequently in the street and on buses. I've been preached to on occasion also. Fresh faced young American guys and sometimes girls . They speak perfect Chinese to the locals. So I just say in English I am a Christian, I don't accept Mormon teaching. They say they hope I will eventually see the truth.....

To summarise what I think is the secular case for Israel : -

(1) Historical Israel was built by Israelites.

(2) Jewish people were exiled twice. They did not leave voluntarily.

(3) Over 2000 years, Jewish people have never dropped their claim to Israel.

(4) Modern Israel is built by Israelis.

(5) In between no other people built a country on that land. Outsiders built some Churches and some Mosques during medieval times.

(6) Jewish people purchased their land in the 20th century from the occupying power.

(7) You build a country with civil society (laws and government) and physical infrastructure, that is your country. I think that is the principle of Sovereignty. Squatting does not count.

But of course , most of the world thinks otherwise.

So I think Israel holds all the rights to the case.

To the Jewish people here, I hope that position does not offend and is acceptable. Please do not hold my being Christian against me and conclude that because 1) I am Christian, 2) I support Israel; that my "real" or "hidden" purpose is part of a "wider agenda" to convert Jewish people and "usher end times". To each person his own belief. Really.

Regards.

Teacake

01-12-2003, 09:56 PM

Frans, I think most Jews would have no problem with (xians) if they had your attitude and understanding. Too many American xains shove it in our face and let us know constantly that America is a christian nation, that we are their guests. It is not a comfortable thing to deal with. I have mostly non-Jewish friends myself, and they are secular, non-religious. If they are religious, they keep it to themselves, which is how I feel about my personal beliefs too. I like very much the seperation of chruch and state. But the past several years American xians have got way too passionate with their religion to the point of wanting the seperation to end.

Anyhow, a lot of us aren't comfortable using "christ" so we use the old Greek X instead. Nice to see a friendly normal person join this forum!

rory

01-13-2003, 10:56 AM

All,

There is a growing 'movement' in Christian circles that is great support of Israel, because we believe the Old Testament and what God says. Our belief is that the Christian Messiah was given to us by the Jewish people. This makes us more like brothers than enemies.

Now, I will be the first to admit that Christians HAVE persecuted Jews in all of history - it's documented, it's a very ugly stain, and it's unfortunate.

Yet many Christians, like myself, believe that God is doing powerful things now, *OPENING* the eyes of Christians, and we are to understand what God's plans are for ALL peoples.

There are groups in Israel whom greatly support the Jews, and these are Christian groups whom are *NOT* actively trying to convert. As for "replacement theology" - again a stain on Christians, yet here is a wonderful refutation of that - by a Christian, and the international director of Bridges for Peace...

"The Error of Replacement Theology"
http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/teaching/Article-18.html

--------------
Personally, *I* traveled to Israel last March 15 - 30. I put "feet" on my faith and went to Haifa, and worked in a school in Kiryat Motzkin, then to the Old City of Jerusalem for more work.

Here are a few verses from the OT that Christians are embracing.

Genesis 12: 2 And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing; 3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

===================

PS 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:

PS 122:6 "May they prosper who love you. 7 "May peace be within your walls,
And prosperity within your palaces." 8 For the sake of my brothers and my friends,
I will now say, "May peace be within you." 9 For the sake of the house of the LORD our God
I will seek your good.
=================

These are just a couple passages that we adhere to....

And from our New Testament there are plenty of passages that show what we believe are God's commands as how Christians are to view Israel and our Jewish brothers and sisters:

Romans 15: 27 Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their (the Jews) spiritual things, they (the gentile) are indebted to minister to them (the Jew) also in material things.

Romans 11:17-18 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

EPH 2:11 Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

EPH 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

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As you can see, there is great support in the Christian Scriptures for Israel and the Jew. This is just a small part as to what is there. Many of us feel that Christians are to support the Jew, and even to the point of NOT proselytizing, that God has a plan for all, and in His own time it will all be revealed.

blessings to you
rory