The US "Christian Right" - bad company for Israel supporters? [Archive]

ibrodsky

06-04-2002, 03:15 AM

Actually, these Christians, who are quite numerous, would be better called "Christian conservatives." The media likes to label people as "right wing" because they have made that term synonymous with intolerance and backwardness.

The writer asks at the end if these Christians would still support Israel if/when Israel lets the Palestinians create their own state on the West Bank. But in fact, Christian support for Israel began to take shape during the Oslo peace process, when Israel seemed on track to do just that.

The writer is also appalled that some Christian right leaders would like Israel to annex the West Bank. This is no more crazy than annexing the Golan Heights. Israel, at its discretion, had reserved the West Bank as part of a Palestinian state resulting from a negotiated settlement. But the Palestinians have earned a one-way ticket to Jordan, and trying to draw a parallel between Nazi Germany and Israel is just more blather -- the majority of Palestinians support terrorist attacks against Jews. Israel captured the WB and Gaza from Arab aggressors, and if they won't stop killing Israeli children they can either live permanently under Israeli rule or leave.

There is another somewhat ulterior motive for Christian support for Israel. Christians know that the holy sites of all religions are respected by Israel. They also know that Palestinians have a history of destroying some Jewish holy sites, which are also important to Christians, and denying the existence of others.

The fact that Muslims destroyed synagogues and built mosques on top of them is quite obvious, and no doubt many Christians worry about the fate of Christian holy sites in a Palestinian "Islamic state" -- the goal of terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad who are now being invited to join Arafat's check-your-dagger-at-the-door "cabinet."

Vic

06-04-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Please correct me if I?m wrong but wasn?t it Christians that marched 6,000,000 =/- Jews into gas chambers?
A complicated story, in fact. The Nazis never defined themselves as religious Christians, afaik. Parts of the Christian establishment were one of the things they cracked down on quite brutally after they came to power in Germany. On the other hand there were no mass protests against the extermination of the Jews either, the silence of Vatican is just the most prominent case. Yet again, a considerable amount of Jews who survived the Holocaust in Western Europe were assisted by religious Christians.

L@mplighterM

06-04-2002, 08:03 PM

It would be extremely difficult to separate the religious Christians from the non-religious Christians. Could there in fact be such an animal as a non-religious Christian? Whom would you consider a non-religious Christians vic?

I?m an atheist so does that make me a non-religious Christian?

Talk is cheap and I?ve sure read about a lot of talk coming from various Christian organizations in Germany during Hitler?s reign. Admittedly some Christians did help the Jews in Europe during the war years.

In 1934 Michael von Faulhaber, the Archbishop of Munich, published Judenum, Christentum, Germanentum, that defended the principles of racial tolerance and humanity and called for the people of Germany to respect the Jewish religion. However, Faulhaber, and other Catholic bishops, made no open protest against the atrocities being committed against the Jews in Germany.
Link:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERchristianity.htm

Isn?t the same statement pretty much true today?

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Martin Niemöller

I firmly believe that the Christians came for Martin as they did for the Jews. Attend church on Sunday and kill Jews on Monday.

Vic

06-04-2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It would be extremely difficult to separate the religious Christians from the non-religious Christians. Could there in fact be such an animal as a non-religious Christian? Whom would you consider a non-religious Christians vic?
You are right, the expression lacks precision. What I meant was not just someone who has been baptized, but rather people actively involved in religious life one way or other.

Faulhaber acted dishonourably, that's true, and there are more than enough of others of the same kind. I do however like precision on historic details, and one of the things I have pointed out was that Christianity wasn't much of a trend among the Nazis. In the early phases of their existence they actually tried to (re-)introduce pagan cults. Martin Niemoeller, whom you quote, was a Protestant pastor, who narrowly survived a concentration camp in the Nazi years.

The point is, the danger doesn't emanate from any specific purely religious group (i.e. a group without a political program as well) today, and it hasn't been the case in Niemoeller's time. It is remarkable that he writes of "them", although the political scene in pre-Nazi Germany was much clearer defined than the terrorist groups are now. It would be nice if one could pin down the source of danger on such a group, make it easily recognizable, but life isn't that simple, and it never has been.

Congratulations for passing the 1000-post mark, btw. ;)

Vic

06-05-2002, 04:39 AM

Well, my memory...
The first line in Niemoeller's poem runs "When the Nazis came for the communists" in the original. Funny, the English translation sounds more "abstract" than the German text.
http://www.jasongeo.com/gdh/faq/html/aword.html

ibrodsky

06-05-2002, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Anyone that believes that the Catholic Church past or present was/is supportive of Israel or Jews is a dreamer. Do a search on google.com or some other search engine and read some of the statements issued by the Vatican.

From my investigation I?ve found very little true support from the Christian Community in the US or around the world. Am I wrong?

You are completely ignoring the fact that there are different types of Christians. I don't know anyone who thinks the Catholic Church supports Israel. There is a very pronounced left-wing, anti-Israel stream among Catholics.

However, evangelical Christians are very pro-Israel and I believe the vast majority are totally sincere. It's very simple: they believe in the Jewish bible and they have a very strong sense of right versus wrong. Christians like Alan Keyes are more supportive of Israel than many Jews!

Yes, I think you are being cynical. We don't have many friends, so we shouldn't dismiss the friends we do have. Fortunately, many of them feel very strongly and are willing to overlook such comments. Be grateful.

Mediocrates

06-05-2002, 07:24 AM

I don't know anyone who thinks the Catholic Church supports Israel. There is a very pronounced left-wing, anti-Israel stream among Catholics.

I know lots of Catholics and lapsed Catholics who support Israel. They come an American history where the local factory would have a sign on the door that read "No Jews, No Dogs, No Irish". I don't think they care much what Rome has to say about it. Hell, I went to school with a bunch of freewheeling Vincentians who were sympathetic to Jews and to Israel. I agree though that the 'official positions' are different from that -even to the point of calling the country "The land now known as Israel".

Mediocrates

06-05-2002, 07:28 AM

http://www.vincentian.org/newsletter/archive/0112/provincial.html

Here are the first two paragraphs:

From the Provincial
Accepting the Gift of Justice

I am writing this on Monday, December 3, 2001; a few days ago I heard along with most other Americans the news from Israel of bombings and more acts of terror. I don’t know how one weighs or measures hatred but whatever units are used, the amount of it in the world is massive. The results don’t have to be measured–they are broken bodies, broken hearts, broken lives, broken dreams.

Years ago I read–I don’t remember where–someone’s self-description saying "there is no evil of which I am not capable." In reading those words I knew that what the writer had said of himself I could certainly repeat to myself. Having written that, I have to acknowledge that it is extraordinarily difficult for me to plumb the depths of a hatred that can create such devastation in the lives of other human beings. I know, as anyone does, that the hatred is not drawn from some special kind of Islamic well–a few moments spent reflecting on Belfast or Dachau quickly affirms that the capability for that kind of hatred is universal.

L@mplighterM

06-05-2002, 08:13 AM

I decided post 7 wasn't helpful to the cause, so I removed it.

elke

06-08-2002, 04:10 PM

These guys are not US Christians, but interesting....

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1022691096582

cerulean

06-08-2002, 10:59 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/09/national/09GROU.html

redcake

06-12-2002, 04:38 PM

Let's not forget that the Christian right community has become a lot more exposed, and educated over the last decade. More and more we're starting to see Christians that embrace Judiac history, with a strange fondness for Jews. Some celebrate passover (calling it "resurection day") and a lot of the Christian support for Israel is incredibly bold. The Christian communitys are slowly changing with the times, and becoming more hip (Television isn't nearly as demonized for one example). I'm sure a lot of it's over compensation and some of the support for Israel might not be the most sincere.... but I've heard some of the strongest most inspiring backing of Israel from Christians, and it's rather inspiring.

Vic

06-13-2002, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by redcake
Let's not forget that the Christian right community has become a lot more exposed, and educated over the last decade. More and more we're starting to see Christians that embrace Judiac history, with a strange fondness for Jews. Some celebrate passover (calling it "resurection day") and a lot of the Christian support for Israel is incredibly bold. The Christian communitys are slowly changing with the times, and becoming more hip (Television isn't nearly as demonized for one example). I'm sure a lot of it's over compensation and some of the support for Israel might not be the most sincere.... but I've heard some of the strongest most inspiring backing of Israel from Christians, and it's rather inspiring.
Do you mean the so-called "Messianic Judaism"?
I remember an article on evolving religions ( http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/02/lester.htm ), but I am not sure it can fall under the category.

redcake

06-13-2002, 08:06 AM

Well there are a lot of creepy variations in the Christians-who-love-Jews-all-over-again factions but
ya know what can you do?

Mediocrates

06-13-2002, 08:19 AM

Jews for Jesus? Well they have an enormous problem making aliyah because no rabbis will sign off on it. Are they generally supportive of Israel? I don't know - I would say that they are supportive of Jews in the Holy Land. Are they political? Again, I don't know if you can make any general statements about that.

raven

06-13-2002, 11:33 AM

I think it is time for Jews to get educated about what so called "conservative or Far Right" Christians really believe and what the "end game" of their beliefs are. So few of us know what the basis for the support for Israel really is.

This is a short version of the beliefs. Israel-- occupied by Jews is necessary for their G-d Storyline to be completed. Simplifying this...Jews have to be in Israel at the END TIMES for Jesus to triumph and come back. Then we will ALL mend our ways, accept Jesus,...and all be with him in "heavon". More to this of course.

Then there are those Christians, Conservative and Moderate that have decided to "parse" this storyline a bit. They have given up on Missionizing to all of us..so therefore they have changed the DEFINITION of what a Jew is. A Jew to them NOW can be a Chrisitan/Jew ie. Messianic Jews etc. and that will be satisfactory enough to fulfil the peramaters of who is and who isnt a Jew and who needs to be in Israel for "Revelations" to work out they way they need it to. Israel has been quietly dealing with all manner of scams as these people have moved to Israel, with phony Messianic Jewish conversion certificates, obtained citizenship, and proceeded to missionize to their real religion. They are especially targeting new Russian Immigrants and Etheoian Jews. Those that havent had much of a chance to find out what their religion (Judiasm) was all about.

In addition to the Christian /Jews you have what is called REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY Christians of all kinds. It says in essense that Christians are the REAL Jews either because the comming of Jesus changed the "contract"...OR We Jews gave up the "title" -so to speak -because we havent behaved properly. (there are other reasons why we arent the "chosen" anymore and therefor have no right to Israel) IF you go quietly to many Christian Boards you will see them discussing what they really believe and how THEY are the authentic and real inheritors of Israel. This is NOT a fringe element..This is a substancial amount of people in the mainstream Christian World. There are all sorts of different levels and wrinkles in Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology has a "bad name" and so you will NOT see it presented with that title. Look for ANY Christian theology that ends up in other than Jews being the people that should be now or in the future in control of Israel.

Finally, there is support for Israel because they KNOW that Israel in Arabs hands cuts Christians out COMPLETELY. They need us there to babysit Israel until either-- as Replacement Jews they can get hold of power in Israel OR the End Times come and the Christian/Jews can take over.

Just take an hour a week and read Fundamentalist and Mainstream Christian websites and forums..for yourself. You might also check out Internet Missionary Sites. There are 500 different Missionary Organizations that are soley dedicated to Missionizing to Jews.

Mediocrates

06-13-2002, 12:03 PM

Could you give a start - a few pointers? Many of us, myself included have I guess a view of Apocalyptic Christianity as being a fringe element. How closely is that allied with the perennial effort of Baptists to convert us?

raven

06-13-2002, 12:13 PM

Hi: Do a search for Messianic Judiasm. Do a search for Replacement Theology. Another eye opener is to investigate Internet Missionizing.... Delphi has many Christian Forums. Dont post...just read...Look for any end game that has OTHER than Jews occupying Israel. Look for fairystories about who is and who isnt a person of the Ten Lost Tribes. (I forgot to add this--many Christians claim to be ancestors of the Ten Lost Tribes) THEY belong in Isreal..not us. OR they will JOIN us. This is a huge subject and a serious one that Jews just dont know about. Features of all of these "other than Jews" storylines can be reflected in various MAINSTREAM Christian groups as well as Fundamentalist Groups.

Watch for any group that keys on "Revelations". Thats the business of Israel being attacked by all the NATIONS and the AntiChrist Arising and a further War and Israel being almost destroyed and Jesus commin back..and ALLLLL of us accepting Jesus and going??? up...or down or wherever.

There was a Denver scam..in which a phony Rabbi gave phony converstion certificates to people that want to claim Judiasm, for themselves, claim Israeli Citizenship, move to Israel, reconvert and Missionize. Israel is in a sticky spot and so is keeping as quiet with this as possible. MANY are trying to do this.

Look up a group called-- Jews For Judiasm. This is a Baltimore Based Group that fights Messianic Jews and their dishonest depiction of who they are. They are in fact Fundamentalist Christians who self select the name Jew and demand that everyone accept their new definition.

So you have two subjects to investigate...Messianic Jews and Replacement Theology.

Med: Depending on which exact Baptist you are talking about...this this DEFINATELY tied to efforts to Missionize to us. There are all sorts of strains and levels that fall under the name "Baptist". Lot of em cross over into Replacement Theology. Jews For Jesus is a Baptist/Fundamentalist like Group.

Do NOT be flattered by Christians dressin up like Jews, holding Passovers,wearing Jewish Stars etc. These are mostly Replacement people in the end. They do these "faux" Jewish Celebrations and it is beginning to morph into claiming that THEY are doing the authentic Celebration and WE are NOT.

cerulean

06-13-2002, 12:27 PM

The "Left Behind" book series was very popular in the US. I think that gives an indication that apocalyptic ideas are mainstream. (I haven't read them, but from what I understand they are evangelical imaginative fiction works about "last days" scenarios.) There's also a belief that Jews will fall en masse for the anti-Christ.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-6306910-4339909

Who can forget Reagan's interior secretary James Watts who believed as many resources as possible should be used up before the imminent return of Jesus? Reagan was also a believer in some sort of apocalyptic scenario involving Armaggedeon from what I understand, and I would not be surprised if the current president is also.

I think this page is an indication of what Raven is talking about:

http://www.truthleftbehind.com/IsraelinProphecy.html

For good or bad, I think most Americans would not be able to give a comprehensive rundown of their particular church's belief on the subject, but there is no doubt there is a highly developed set of apocalyptic beliefs that involve Israel. But I would guess the average person who supports Israel is probably motivated more by justice and fair play (or at least I hope so).

As to what should be done practically, I think the main thing is education as to these potential agendas. From a pragmatic point of view, if money and resources and support are offered (without strings, of course), I'd be hard-pressed to say these should be rejected.

elke

06-13-2002, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by raven

Just take an hour a week and read Fundamentalist and Mainstream Christian websites and forums..for yourself. You might also check out Internet Missionary Sites. There are 500 different Missionary Organizations that are soley dedicated to Missionizing to Jews.

Spare me, please! ;)

I think you are right regarding why the Fundamentalist Christians support Israel. There are many that try to convert Jews any chance they get.

raven

06-13-2002, 05:04 PM

C: thank you for the information. Im going to investigate what you put up. Wish I could have written more clearly... Thank G-d for the internet...It can fill in what I left out.

I feel all alone out here asking Jews to please learn about what these very numerous amounts of peoples believe. We learn about everything else in the world..why not learn the true nature of who we are dealing with, what they believe, and what may be the price. There will be a price for the support of Israel. Yes we need the support...but what KIND of support is it?

Do look at the HolyLand Experience Themepark. This is run by a Messianic Jew...this one a convert. He leads his audience thru the Old Testament ...one liitle teeny change tho...even as it seems like a Jewish experience, it is set up to lead people to the conclusion that all that is in the Old Testament is merely a set up for the acceptance of Jesus and the New Testament. This is just one small example of Messianic Jews and what their own theology is. Most Jews are unaware of these groups and the Replacement groups...who would define us OUT of our own Religion. Pardon me..people..I think this is QUITE a problem.

Im asking all who are interested to read for themselves...thats all.

raven

06-13-2002, 05:13 PM

C: thanks for posting the link about his particular series...Now that I see this..Its WORSE than I thought.. .. Gee wiz.

I just got "conned" into reading a Novel that I thought was ONE thing, a novel about Israel and rebuilding the Temple by Orthadox Jews, and it turned out to be a "soft" support of Messianic Jews. The Othadox Rabbi in the book...admits that he SECRETLY believes and so do 'many other Rabbis" in Jesus.

This is an example of deceptive practices that these people are into. Jews For Judiasm has this type of information. Anything else you can pass along...Please do.

elke

06-13-2002, 05:15 PM

Sorry, Raven, I did not mean to be glib. I do think you are right: all those Jews for Jesus and such are a danger. The US support of the Afghan Mujahadeen => going on Taliban, is a classic example of problems arising out of "the lesser of two evils".

However, what alternative is there? Should Israel refuse all help from them? Can Israel afford that? IMHO, we simply must keep in mind our own interests and teach our children well. "Politics makes strange bedfellows".

raven

06-13-2002, 05:23 PM

Elke...thats ok..we definately have to accept support..but I want Jews to do it with knowledge of who really is supporting Israel and what the motives and the "end game" are. Thats all.

When you spend ..just a little time..not much..you will see that the support is very self serving and will eventually morph into something that we will NOT be able to handle.

Im aware of whats out there and I..just fell for a very astute "missionizing" effort when I got to the END of the book. Very sneeky. Very cultish in behavior.

Then there is the other problem. Very large...like C. says quite mainstream..Replacement Theology in all its forms. WOW. Thats all I can say. We have to learn just a little about this. It seeks to Replace Jews...thats the long and short of it.

elke

06-13-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by raven
Elke...thats ok..we definately have to accept support..but I want Jews to do it with knowledge of who really is supporting Israel and what the motives and the "end game" are. Thats all.

When you spend ..just a little time..not much..you will see that the support is very self serving and will eventually morph into something that we will NOT be able to handle.

Im aware of whats out there and I..just fell for a very astute "missionizing" effort when I got to the END of the book. Very sneeky. Very cultish in behavior.

Then there is the other problem. Very large...like C. says quite mainstream..Replacement Theology in all its forms. WOW. Thats all I can say. We have to learn just a little about this. It seeks to Replace Jews...thats the long and short of it.

I agree. We do need to know what we are dealing with, and not get lulled into complacency that these people have only our best interests at heart. However, we have successfully handled mass conversion efforts before, and we should be able to handle them again.

raven

06-13-2002, 07:08 PM

Vic: Thank you very much for posting the link to that Article. Im not thru reading this but Ive kept it and going to pass this along. Tremendous amount of introductory information here. Again thanks.

redcake

06-14-2002, 06:00 AM

There is still a rebirth of Christians without creepy backroom issues towards Jews that see the issues in Israel clearly, and with education that simply support the good fight. As I stated before, a lot of them are getting with the times, and moving past the blood libels with a new understanding of Judiasm in a way that doesn't threaten their own beliefs (or at least incorporates acceptance of Jews into their beliefs). This kind of support is crucial. This is what's intersting, not dwelling on the existance of the creepy anti-Jewish cult like factions of Christianity (which shouldn't be news to anyone here, but if it is then by all means you should read up and learn about these groups).

Mr. Pumps

06-14-2002, 07:10 AM

:confused: Does anyone know the relations between Mormons and Jewish people. I am guessing quit distant.

redcake

06-14-2002, 07:39 AM

There is a Bingham Young school in Israel go figure...but interestingly enough, as secular as Israel is, there are strange laws in the books about preaching Mormonism, at the mutual request of the Mormon's themselves. I'm sure I'm screwing this bit of info up, so someone here that knows better should correct me because I've forgotten the real scoop. I do know that Mormons tend to be heavy supporters of the PA, and that a lot of them travel there to work as missionaries. Oddly enough there are an abundance of Quakers working for the UNRWA in Palestinian villages like Jenin.

raven

06-14-2002, 02:54 PM

Redcake; My favorite word to describe these "groups"..creepy. Yes there are some, but not all that many, mainstream Christian Groups that support Israel...but so many more with so many creepy adjendas. Some that will put us in real jepardy some day. If WE arent who say we are, and they ARE the real Israel...well you can just imagine the implications.

Mormans believe that they are a lost tribe of Israel. There is no love lost. They cater to the Islamic World....The Mormons were caught at the practice of "converting" Jews AFTER they have died. This is an old story... quite a uproar about it when one family noticed that their relatives who had died in the Shoa were involuntarily converted to Mormonism. Have you ever??? They convert other groups to Mormonism after they have "shuffled off" also. Is THAT not creepy?

Vic

06-17-2002, 12:56 AM

Somewhat off-topic, but irresistible :D

http://jews-for-allah.org/
There is nothing more Jewish than being a Muslim
I'm not quite sure that this is not a hoax though. Apparently the site is maintained by a company called "Silly Host".

cerulean

06-17-2002, 01:01 AM

I did some research on this site some time ago. The same person who registered this site has registered a number of sites designed to convert people (I think the other ones were aimed at Christians). He is also active on Islamic message boards.

The tipoff that it was just another anti-Jewish/anti-Israel site, rather than a sincere site for Jews who had taken up Islam, were the anti-Israel screeds posted somewhere in the site's depths.

cerulean

06-17-2002, 03:47 PM

From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61275-2002Jun16.html

UNITED NATIONS -- Conservative U.S. Christian organizations have joined forces with Islamic governments to halt the expansion of sexual and political protections and rights for gays, women and children at United Nations conferences.

The new alliance, which coalesced during the past year, has received a major boost from the Bush administration, which appointed antiabortion activists to key positions on U.S. delegations to U.N. conferences on global economic and social policy.

...

takeo

06-19-2002, 06:27 PM

UNITED NATIONS -- Conservative U.S. Christian organizations have joined forces with Islamic governments to halt the expansion of sexual and political protections and rights for gays, women and children at United Nations conferences.

The new alliance, which coalesced during the past year, has received a major boost from the Bush administration, which appointed antiabortion activists to key positions on U.S. delegations to U.N. conferences on global economic and social policy.

But it has been largely galvanized by conservative Christians who have set aside their doctrinal differences, cemented ties with the Vatican and cultivated fresh links with a powerful bloc of more than 50 moderate and hard-line Islamic governments, including Sudan, Libya, Iraq and Iran.

"We look at them as allies, not necessarily as friends," said Austin Ruse, founder and president of the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute, a New York-based organization that promotes conservative values at U.N. social conferences. "We have realized that without countries like Sudan, abortion would have been recognized as a universal human right in a U.N. document."

The alliance of conservative Islamic states and Christian organizations has placed the Bush administration in the awkward position of siding with some of its most reviled adversaries -- including Iraq and Iran -- in a cultural skirmish against its closest European allies, which broadly support expanding sexual and political rights.

U.S. and Iranian officials even huddled during coffee breaks at the U.N. summit on children in New York last month, according to U.N. diplomats.

But the partnership also has provided the administration an opportunity to demonstrate that it shares many social values with Islam at a time when the United States is being criticized in the Muslim world for its continued support of Israel and the nine-month-old war on terrorism. "We have tried to point out there are some areas of agreement between [us] and a lot of Islamic countries on these social issues," a U.S. official said.

"The main issue that brings us all together is defending the family values, the natural family," added Mokhtar Lamani, a Moroccan diplomat who represents the 53-nation Organization of Islamic Conferences at the United Nations. "The Republican administration is so clear in defending the family values."

Lamani said he was first approached by U.S. Christian non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, at a special session of the U.N. General Assembly on AIDS in New York in June 2001.

Liberal Western activists and governments, he said, had offended the religious and cultural sensitivities of Islamic countries by proposing that a final conference declaration include explicit references to the need to protect prostitutes, intravenous drug users and "men who have sex with men" from contracting AIDS.

"It was totally unacceptable for us," Lamani said. "The Vatican and so many NGOs came up to us saying this is exactly the same position we are defending."

The Islamic-Christian alliance claimed an important victory at the U.N. children's meeting last month.

The Bush administration led the coalition in blocking an effort by European and Latin American countries to include a reference in the final declaration to "reproductive health care services," a term the conservatives believed could be used to promote abortion.

The U.S. team included John Klink, a former adviser to the Vatican at previous U.N. conferences; Janice Crouse, a veteran antiabortion advocate at Concerned Women of America; and Paul J. Bonicelli of Patrick Henry College in Purcellville, Va., a Christian institution that requires its professors teach creationism.

The Christian groups and Islamic countries have been seeking to build on those gains at subsequent U.N. gatherings, pressing for greater restrictions on abortion at an annual meeting of the World Health Organization last month and later at a U.N. preparatory conference on sustainable development in Bali, Indonesia.

"The rest of the world saw a shift in the debate" at the children's summit, said Patrick Fagan of the Heritage Foundation, a Washington policy group. "It wasn't just pure defense. They are on the offensive here."

Some Western countries and liberal activists say they are alarmed by the influence of the Christian right at the United Nations, where more liberal women's rights organizations have held sway for the past decade.

"They are trying to undo some of the landmark agreements that were reached in the 1990s, particularly on women's rights and family planning," a U.N.-based European diplomat said. "The U.S. decision to come into the game on their side has completely changed the dynamics."

"This alliance shows the depths of perversity of the [U.S.] position," said Adrienne Germaine, president of the International Women's Health Coalition. "On the one hand we're presumably blaming these countries for unspeakable acts of terrorism, and at the same time we are allying ourselves with them in the oppression of women."

The World Policy Center, a Mormon group established in 1997 to promote family values through an alliance that includes conservative Christians, the Catholic Church and Islamic governments, is holding a conference next month at Brigham Young University School of Law. It will bring antiabortion advocates and legal critics of the United Nations together with more than 60 U.N. diplomats, including delegates from conservative Catholic and Islamic countries.

Ruse first outlined his strategy for maximizing the conservatives' leverage at the United Nations at a 1999 meeting in Geneva of the World Congress of Families, a gathering of advocates of conservative family values. It involves "lavish[ing] all our attention" on a coalition of 12 antiabortion countries that are willing to fight for their cause at U.N. sessions, he said. Religious leaders and politicians in the United States and in these select countries in the developing world should be persuaded "to encourage these governments to defend life and family at the United Nations."

He also boasted that his tactics were beginning to seize the initiative from advocates for the rights of children, women and gays. "Our team was in a tiny conference room leaning over the backs of diplomats, assisting with the drafting of the conference document," he said.

"We broke all the rules of U.N. lobbying, which forbids leafleting on the floor of a U.N. conference. We had our people fan out across the floor of the conference and we placed this letter in the hand of every delegate."

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61275-2002Jun16.html

looking forwards to your reactions...

Suecanrush

06-19-2002, 08:40 PM

The last line of the article states "Ultimately, if Christians can't love Israel as she is, they can not love her at all " (to paraphrase)
As a Christian, I say that is a great point, Christ taught us to love unconditionally. Some are Christians, but haven't quite learned that yet. It doesn't make them not Christians, just poor examples of God's character and Jesus' Love for all. Not trying to convert, just letting you know that in my experience, "right wing christians" are intolerant, closed minded and not understanding what our faith is really about. I guess I'm not a "mainstream" christian. But I don't think many "mainstream christians" study they Old or New Testament to gain enlightenment, only to confirm the traditions and errors that have been taught to them for generations. As a Sabbath keeper, and a believer of Christ's words that there are "neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female," etc., I understand that to be that God loves us all the same, and is wanting us to do the same. As a Christian, I support Israel because you are victims of almost daily terrorism, and I do feel a connection with the Jewish people, because of many similar beliefs, that most Christians no longer hold, calling them "Jewish beliefs, (such as the Sabbath and dietary laws). I have a love for the Jewish people that has no motive other that to love God's people.
Suecanrush

cerulean

06-20-2002, 12:04 AM

This AP article briefly covers some of the theological permutations:

http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20020617-55790.htm

Suecanrush

06-20-2002, 08:16 PM

Is your point with the Disraeli quote that one should not offer opinions for fear someone else will believe that they are wrong?

cerulean

06-20-2002, 08:43 PM

I'm copying the quote in case I change my sig again:

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. - Disraeli

Originally posted by Suecanrush
Is your point with the Disraeli quote that one should not offer opinions for fear someone else will believe that they are wrong?

No, not at all. My point in choosing that signature is that it's easier to be critical than constructive.

It's easy for me, at least, to fall into the trap of criticizing rather than doing something useful. Of course criticism is necessary too.

The signature also means it's easy to criticize someone for being wrong, but much harder to actually determine a correct course of action. It's okay to criticize, but that should not be the only thing done.

That's how I interpret the quote anyway. It's not directed at anyone besides myself.

(Just for historical context, a brief bio of Disraeli:
http://www.britannia.com/bios/disraeli.html )

Mediocrates

06-21-2002, 07:28 AM

it's smarter to be lucky than it's lucky to be smart - pippin

ldsknight

06-22-2002, 08:19 PM

You need to recognize that the New Republic is by and large an organ of the Democratic Party and the left. They are trying preserve the linkage between Jews and the Democrats and the left.

I consider myself a conservative Christian. I recognize their are some benighted alleged Christians who are less than noble in their conduct and opinions towards Jews and Israel. Those who truly understand our faith recognize the Jews have a special place in God's heart and that the Jews are still his covenant children and will ultimately prevail.

So I say welcome as allies. We have access to the President that is not available to the left. We that support Isreal today will support Israel tomorrow.

Shalom,

elke

06-23-2002, 07:38 AM

Thank you, Kirk, for the clarification and your support. It is very much appreciated.

cerulean

06-23-2002, 05:48 PM

An article on current American thoughts and feelings about the likelihood of an imminent apocalypse.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,265345-1,00.html

Adversary2Arabs

06-24-2002, 06:08 PM

I agree with raven and elke. Christians by their own faith must try to convert every non-Christian they can. This is a MUST in the Baptist Church, and a very common thing for other churches.

elke

06-24-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I agree with raven and elke. Christians by their own faith must try to convert every non-Christian they can. This is a MUST in the Baptist Church, and a very common thing for other churches.

Actually, that's not completely accurate. I used to work for a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church. I had quite a bit of contact with Episcopal Priests and Bishops, and was very pleasantly surprised by their open-mindedness and utter absence of proselytizing. One of them was actually a professor of Jewish Studies at Harvard - Riddle me that! :) He tried to speak Hebrew with me, but I have to confess, mine was MUCH worse than his! :o

ldsknight

06-24-2002, 06:53 PM

I cannot speak for other Christian faiths, but as one my discern, I am member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. According to our doctrine, the proselyting of Jewish people will not be practiced as a rule at this time. That is not to say Jewish individuals may be baptized from time to time. As I previously stated, we believe the Jewish are still dear to the heart of God and the covenant still is in force. If one wishes further information they can contact the Jerusalem center for the straight scoop.

Shalom,

Kirk

cerulean

06-24-2002, 11:25 PM

http://www.towardtradition.org/

From http://www.towardtradition.org/about_us.asp :
"Toward Tradition is a national educational movement of Jews and Christians and other Americans seeking to advance the nation toward traditional, faith based, American principles of constitutional and limited government, the rule of law, representative democracy, free markets, a strong military, and a moral public culture."

Adversary2Arabs

06-25-2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by elke

Actually, that's not completely accurate. I used to work for a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church. I had quite a bit of contact with Episcopal Priests and Bishops, and was very pleasantly surprised by their open-mindedness and utter absence of proselytizing. One of them was actually a professor of Jewish Studies at Harvard - Riddle me that! :) He tried to speak Hebrew with me, but I have to confess, mine was MUCH worse than his! :o

Most Christians are like that. I attend a Catholic Highschool, unfortunately, and I know first hand from their religion class and a certain poster on the cafeteria wall that says," Go out and make believers of other nations" or something like that. Its part of their Bible. (It was a quote from their bible.)

ruby

07-03-2002, 06:21 PM

the xians who do not espouse conversion are the minority of xians.
i wouldn't trust them if it pertains to anything to do with the welfare of jewish people.

you have got to be as blind as a bat if you cannot see the danger & duplicity in the xian right. they are jew-haters to the core, despite their fake smiles & words. don't be naive.

Mr. Pumps

07-03-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by ldsknight
I cannot speak for other Christian faiths, but as one my discern, I am member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. According to our doctrine, the proselyting of Jewish people will not be practiced as a rule at this time. That is not to say Jewish individuals may be baptized from time to time. As I previously stated, we believe the Jewish are still dear to the heart of God and the covenant still is in force. If one wishes further information they can contact the Jerusalem center for the straight scoop.

Shalom,

Kirk

Are you a Mormon? I am sure the Church of the Latterday Saints are Mormons.

ldsknight

07-03-2002, 08:46 PM

I plead guilty.

JustPat

07-04-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by ruby
the xians who do not espouse conversion are the minority of xians.
i wouldn't trust them if it pertains to anything to do with the welfare of jewish people.

you have got to be as blind as a bat if you cannot see the danger & duplicity in the xian right. they are jew-haters to the core, despite their fake smiles & words. don't be naive. Ruby,
Sorry you have had such a negative experience with those who call themselves Christian. We who truly follow the Bible not only love the Jewish people, but feel inseparably linked to them in heritage and destiny. The true Christian is the best ally Israel could ever have. I am personally aware of thirty ministries that have continued to book tours to Israel in the face of the intifada so that they can show their support and put feet to their faith.

It's easy to bludgeon Christians because of those who claim to be Christian but live as anything but. It is those two-faced religious bigots who have perverted Christianity that are the threat, not those who are the real deal. According to Gallup, only 1/2% of the US population actually meet the biblical criteria for being labled Christian.

Like anything else, don't settle for imitations when only the real will do.

cerulean

07-05-2002, 09:35 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787706648

Former US secretary of state James Baker reportedly cursed Jews in a fit of anger at Jewish pressure on the first president George Bush a decade ago, saying Jews don't vote for the Republican Party.

But Gary Bauer, one of the Christian Right's leading voices in the US, says not only are more Jews ready to vote Republican, they also have a whole lot of friends in the evangelical Christian community for whom Israel is a top priority.
[...]
"I think the president's instincts are right, and in the past when he got off message it's been the State Department and his father [who have been responsible]," Bauer said.

"I think his instincts started reasserting themselves. I also think the information of [Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser] Arafat's payments to terror was also a factor."
...

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 09:52 AM

I agree, most Christains I know are great allies of the Jewish people and Israel and do not try to convery everyone. However, the Christian right is another story. Like all zealots, including Jews as well, people spreading the gospel or faith or book or theory or whatever, they annoy me greatly. There's nothing like being woken up by some born-agains on a Saturday morning. Maybe I shouldn't get a gun.

elke

07-05-2002, 12:04 PM

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 12:11 PM

Yes! I think that's what I meant, but either one, doesn't make a difference to me. I once argued with a Rabbi all day about how if God is in eveything, including a rabbit, than why does rabbit not have a soul? It's all pointless.

Mediocrates

07-05-2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by elke

Ever saw Jehovah's Witnesses at your doorstep? :)

Funny story about that too long to go into here, suffice it to say it involved a hazmat suit, cordless power tools, a boombox.

elke

07-05-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Funny story about that too long to go into here, suffice it to say it involved a hazmat suit, cordless power tools, a boombox.

And who owned these items? Jehovah's Witnesses? I knew they come prepared, but not that prepared! ;)

Mediocrates

07-05-2002, 02:35 PM

I was removing asbestos from a house. I had on a hazmat suit w/respirator helmet, and was carrying a cordless drill with a 2ft long auger bit. The boombox was blasting 'I Wanna Be Sedated'. The Witnesses came to the door and when they saw me they asked if I was busy.

"No. What do you want?" Depress trigger on drill.

"We want to talk to you about what peace means to you."

"You'd be amazed." Slam door.

minusthejihad

07-05-2002, 02:41 PM

Right On. That's hilarious, mine involved blowing a certain kind of smoke at them. They knew not to come to a college town I thought, but I was wrong.

elke

07-05-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad
Right On. That's hilarious, mine involved blowing a certain kind of smoke at them. They knew not to come to a college town I thought, but I was wrong.

They don't! :( When I went to college, we had Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy, who had to have been seen to be fully appreciated.

That story is a classic, Mediocrates!:D

cerulean

07-05-2002, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by elke
When I went to college, we had Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy, who had to have been seen to be fully appreciated.

I saw them also! They are indeed remarkable.

Later on the same day, though, I saw Cindy pushing her daughter, who was perhaps 2 years old, in a stroller through the Student Hall looking tired and ordinary (and perhaps my imagination, but a little sad too, I think).

JustPat

07-05-2002, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by minusthejihad I agree, most Christains I know are great allies of the Jewish people and Israel and do not try to convery everyone. However, the Christian right is another story. Like all zealots, including Jews as well, people spreading the gospel or faith or book or theory or whatever, they annoy me greatly. There's nothing like being woken up by some born-agains on a Saturday morning. Maybe I shouldn't get a gun. I guess the problem here is that most conservative Christian people consider themselves part of the "Christian right." They do not see themselves as, nor do they act the part of zealot. Strong in their convictions, grounded in biblical morality, they back those who are willing to give strong moral leadership - regardless of political affiliation.

Many of us understand the role of Israel in our history and our destiny. We are not so quick to write off either. Some of us have studied the Scriptures and are careful to speak about Israel only as G-d speaks of her.

I am not a zealot. I am a friend to Israel. I am a conservative Christian. Am I the "Christian right?" Perhaps "Christian right" is painting with too broad a brush.

elke

07-06-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by cerulean

I saw them also! They are indeed remarkable.

Later on the same day, though, I saw Cindy pushing her daughter, who was perhaps 2 years old, in a stroller through the Student Hall looking tired and ordinary (and perhaps my imagination, but a little sad too, I think).

Did she lose that silly hat she had on? :D

We had our own, "home-grown" religious fanatics on campus. Brother Jedd and Sister Cindy were simply the most amusing ;)

elke

07-06-2002, 01:01 PM

Story about Pat Robertson receiving ZOA award:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12708

JustPat

07-06-2002, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by elke
Story about Pat Robertson receiving ZOA award:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12708 I worked for Pat Robertson for 2 years. The man is almost militant in his support of Israel. I was never ashamed of his stands in regard to the Israeli fight for freedom. Truth be told, the man has invest a great deal of his own money in the State of Israel and its future.

elke

07-16-2002, 07:32 PM

Here is an article about the Christian Right support for Israel:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=187496&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Quote:
"Jewish right-wing advocates have been saying that mere expressions of appreciation to Christian fundamentalist supporters are not enough. They say that Jews should be willing to give in kind for this support...
Morton Klein, president of the Likud-leaning Zionist Organizatin of America, says he isn't disturbed by the religious niceties. "I want their support now," he said, "and I don't care what their theology says down the line."

Cerulean, I take back my comment from "Is Avigdor Lieberman Mad?" thread ("Second of all, the Jewish-Conservative alliance in the US seems to be rather limited to the causes near and dear to both parties, ...The frightening thing about Mr. Lieberman is his apparent drive to keep his eyes on the prize, with no regard for the means to get same. It makes one wonder if he knows what he is getting himself - and Israel - into ):

If Morton Klein's quote is accurate, this is indeed freaky!

cerulean

07-16-2002, 09:35 PM

elke, I get what you are saying :(
Usually alliances require some sort of payback and mutual support. It's just necessary to be clear ahead of time, at least as much as possible, as to what is expected.

elke

07-17-2002, 04:01 PM

...and make it clear that some things are simply not for sale!

cerulean

07-26-2002, 06:26 PM

An article about current Catholic theology regarding Jews waiting for the Messiah:

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649&print=yes

TypingBo

07-28-2002, 12:49 AM

I'm very much a Christian, and consider myself conservative (though I hope for a national health program, support unionism, and eduction... can that be conservative?) but my interest, support, and great admiration for Israel transends any religious ideals. Outside of Turkey, there is no other democracy in that part of the world. Like wise, that little country has moxie, so I admire and care for them. I send money to the Libi fund (Israeli Soldiers fund) every month. I think there are many Christians like me who live at two levels... we recognize that our faith is anchored in that little, ancient, pastoral tribe, with their magnificent Hebrew tongue and glorious bible on the one hand, and our American patriotism makes us relate to and empathize with modern Israel in a political and social sense. I adhere to no prophesies or nacromancers... I just relly dig Israel!

shiva

07-31-2002, 12:58 AM

The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by shiva
The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

Narrowminded nonsense. You don't even say "most" or "many" -- you just accuse all Christian conservatives. How do you know what they are really interested in?

Perhaps you are just interested in driving away what few friends Israel has...

shiva

07-31-2002, 04:31 AM

few friends. Israel? The people who post answers like yours are not the supporters. However, I am Israeli, and know my home and the sentiments better than you could ever hope to. Are you by any chance reading Commentary? Do you honestly think any group has the Israeli's best interest at heart? Look at your history. By saying Israel has few friends, you have shown your hand and have proven my point.

Vic

07-31-2002, 04:32 AM

I have started this thread out of pure curiosity, well aware of my lack of an insider view of the USA, and somewhat worried about similar trends in Europe.

ibrodsky, what is it, in your opinion, that motivates these "what few friends Israel has"? Is it just exceptional morals or do they expect some kind of gain for themselves, whatever it may be? Why this specific group anyway?

The agenda of some of the European self-professed Israel supporters is pretty clear - and alarming. I wonder how much of this applies to the American situation. A short-term friend is not always the best long-term friend...

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Vic
I have started this thread out of pure curiosity, well aware of my lack of an insider view of the USA, and somewhat worried about similar trends in Europe.

ibrodsky, what is it, in your opinion, that motivates these "what few friends Israel has"? Is it just exceptional morals or do they expect some kind of gain for themselves, whatever it may be? Why this specific group anyway?

The agenda of some of the European self-professed Israel supporters is pretty clear - and alarming. I wonder how much of this applies to the American situation. A short-term friend is not always the best long-term friend...

Vic, my experience in life is that it's very hard -- perhaps impossible -- to know other peoples' inner motivations. It is far wiser to observe what they say and do over time. I see Christian conservatives who supported Israel during the Oslo "Peace Process," when their support was generally unwanted. I have seen Christian conservatives support Israel despite the fact that American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal.

I have also heard Christian conservatives respond to the charge that they are only interested in converting Jews by protesting that is not their intention. Some of their leaders and supporters have spoken at and attended "Stand Behind Israel" rallies in the U.S., and most seem very careful about not doing or saying anything that might suggest proselytizing.

There are Christians who have converted to Judaism. I know several. Yet I don't see Christian conservatives expressing fear over this.

Why is it necessary to question the support of Christian conservatives who support Israel in the face of near-worldwide opposition, who are willing to overlook the threat to their values posed by many left-wing Jews, and who sincerely believe -- as many of us here do -- that terrorism is the most profound evil?

These people fervently believe that Israel has the right to exist in security. They are outspoken supporters. They donate money. They don't flinch when the IDF takes out Hamas terrorist leaders.

Instead of blowing them off, like Shiva, we should nurture (and thank them for) their support.

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 05:05 AM

I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle.

raven

07-31-2002, 06:10 AM

Whats the true PRICE for Support of Israel? Hm?

For American Jews: Stated or unstated..do we censor ourselves on Abortion? Do we fight a little LESS rigeriously for stopping the blending of Church and State? What else do we "keep quiet" about so as to keep "our friends"?

Inside Israel? Whats the Price? Little LESS objection to Missionizing...targeting newly arrived Russian Jews and especially Etheopian Jews?

Is there really support for Isreal AS Israel the Jewish State OR is it support for Israel as Jesus Land To Come...when Revelations comes about?

America really IS a Christian Nation...and all America ever had to do was say NO to a Palistinian State. A Phony Constructed Terror State to Come inhabited by run of the mill Arabs of the Area..It IS a phony people...and they know it..and they are helping these Terrorist slice off pieces of Issrael to form this phony State. SOME SUPPORT.

Just saying it like it is...And remember the bottom line of Americas policy IS: Terrorism is Terrorism EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD...EXCEPT in Issrael and Against Jews...Hellooooooooo

Mediocrates

07-31-2002, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle.

I've never heard the man utter one word professing one faith or another - I never heard his personal views on the subject at all. I think he attracts, partially, that kind of crowd inasmuch as there are conservative Christian political junkies. But then again I listen almost never.

Teacake

07-31-2002, 06:25 AM

Non-Jewish supporters of Israel like Rush and Loftus are not part of a christian political movement. There is a difference between smart non-Jews who can see reality and religious fanatics who are keeping tabs of "everything they are doing for "us."

ibrodsky

07-31-2002, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Teacake
Non-Jewish supporters of Israel like Rush and Loftus are not part of a christian political movement. There is a difference between smart non-Jews who can see reality and religious fanatics who are keeping tabs of "everything they are doing for "us."

There is no movement known as the "Christian Right" -- as featured in the title of this thread. There are the Christian Coalition and Evangelical Christians. No doubt some of their members and perhaps leaders would like to convert Jews, though I suspect converting Muslims, Hindus, etc. is higher priority. Converting Jews is not a stated goal of these groups; promoting family values, opposing terrorism, and reducing taxes are.

Accusations of hidden motives can work both ways. Perhaps some Jews oppose these groups for fervently opposing abortion, for not supporting separation of church and state to extremes, and for opposing other liberal policies.

I think it's fair to say that many Christians have supported Israel long enough that if conversion was their real motive, they would be disillusioned by now. For starters, there aren't that many Jews to convert.

raven

07-31-2002, 05:53 PM

Here are the facts jack: There are 600 different and separate Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY to Missionizing ONLY to Jews. Thats 600...24/7 day in and day out...year in and year out. Calculate the funds needed to do this. Think of the motives. Think of the anger when we DONT secume.

raven

08-01-2002, 11:14 AM

Heres something Jews may or may NOT know. The Mormon Church used to unilaterally convert everyone to Mormonism AFTER their deaths. This was uncovered when somehow relatives of people that died in the Shoa were found their Grandparents on the list somehow converted to Mormonism.

There was a big .."ga shray.".(yelling and screeming) to some of the Mormon Senators..in Congress. and supposedly this practice is discontinued. Whether it is REALLY or has gone undergound is not clear now.

Is this unbelievable or what?? What arrogance. What Alpha Group behavior. I convert YOU to my religion without your permission and wether you are alive or not.

shiva

08-02-2002, 12:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ibrodsky
I find all of this paranoia about Christian conservatives to be similar to the view held by some Jews that Republicans are secretly "anti-semitic."

When confronted by someone who wants to convert you, it is up to you as an individual to determine how to respond. My wife's response is a good one: "I'm perfectly satisfied with my religion, thank you."

I think some Jews are simply insecure. There is no need to create a war between Christians and Jews. In fact, doing so plays right into the hands of Islamists (militant Islam).

One of Israel's most ardent supporters in the U.S. is a Christian conservative: Rush Limbaugh. He has a radio audience of over 25 million. I haven't heard him utter one word suggesting or implying Jews should convert. He supports Israel on principle. [/QUOTE

Some Jews are just insecure? Well, I admit it. This Jew is a bit insecure. There is every reason in the world to be insecure when it comes to the motives of non-Jewish zealots who run towards Israel with open arms. We know why America supports Israel. And don't talk about taking people on an individual basis. There are always exceptions, but when dealing with a group, one must consider the group motives. It is just music to my ears :rolleyes: when I hear the congregation of an Irish Catholic mass pray for the Jewish infidels, and have to listen to the ravings of the Baptist Burden, as well as being told by a born-again freak that what could be more natural than for all Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because, after all, He was a Jew. Don't let yourself assume that an "I'm perfectly happy with my religion" attitude directed towards these people will make the slightest bit of difference. They won't be listening. A little "insecurity" is indeed rational, and prudent. Where have YOU been? Maybe we cannot just drive out the Christian right's support, but neither do we close our eyes and pretend it's something it's not.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by raven
Here are the facts jack: There are 600 different and separate Christian Organizations devoted ENTIRELY to Missionizing ONLY to Jews. Thats 600...24/7 day in and day out...year in and year out. Calculate the funds needed to do this. Think of the motives. Think of the anger when we DONT secume.

This sounds like a gross exaggeration. But even if true, it still represents a very tiny fraction of Christian groups, less than 0.1%.

I wonder if you or shiva think it is even possible some Christians support Israel due to their attachment to basic principles.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by shiva

Some Jews are just insecure? Well, I admit it. This Jew is a bit insecure. There is every reason in the world to be insecure when it comes to the motives of non-Jewish zealots who run towards Israel with open arms. We know why America supports Israel. And don't talk about taking people on an individual basis. There are always exceptions, but when dealing with a group, one must consider the group motives. It is just music to my ears :rolleyes: when I hear the congregation of an Irish Catholic mass pray for the Jewish infidels, and have to listen to the ravings of the Baptist Burden, as well as being told by a born-again freak that what could be more natural than for all Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah, because, after all, He was a Jew. Don't let yourself assume that an "I'm perfectly happy with my religion" attitude directed towards these people will make the slightest bit of difference. They won't be listening. A little "insecurity" is indeed rational, and prudent. Where have YOU been? Maybe we cannot just drive out the Christian right's support, but neither do we close our eyes and pretend it's something it's not.

You are permitted to feel insecure. Though it is baseless -- perhaps even pathogical paranoia -- as you are in a country that guarantees freedom of religion and has an excellent track record for the same.

What I object to is suggesting that all Christians who support Israel have ulterior "conversion" motives. We all know that Christian fundamentalism encourages proselytizing. But not all Christains follow this precept or even consider it appropriate.

No one can force you to convert to Christianity. Nor by any stretch of the imagination could one say that Jews in America are under pressure to convert.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by shiva
The Christian right wants Israel, not the Israelis. Their agenda is the same as always, they give to Israel, but it's the conversion that they are interested in. They would be thrilled to see Israel a Christian state

I think it is safe to say that most Jews and Christians believe their religion is the "true" religion. Both religions accept converts from the other.

Let's assume you are correct. Let's assume Israel's Christian supporters long to convert all of the Jews in Israel.

What difference does it make as long as such attempts are limited to lawful exercise of free speech?

If Christians support Israel only because they are looking for converts, then don't worry. They will probably give up soon enough: being on Israel's side is very unpopular and thankless unless one does it just because they believe it the morally right thing to do.

It would be just as easy, if not easier, to win Jewish converts by insisting Israel is undeserving of support.

shiva

08-02-2002, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

This sounds like a gross exaggeration. But even if true, it still represents a very tiny fraction of Christian groups, less than 0.1%.

I wonder if you or shiva think it is even possible some Christians support Israel due to their attachment to basic principles.

Can you clarify these basic principles? I would be surprised if the end goals were remotely the same, or even on the same wavelength. But, maybe you can shed some light on this matter. However, I think it is understandable to realize, because of history, the folly of taking anything at face value. There is a real threat, and if you think some are putting the cart before the horse, please let me know why we should not be listening to what is NOT said. :)

shiva

08-02-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

I think it is safe to say that most Jews and Christians believe their religion is the "true" religion. Both religions accept converts from the other.

Let's assume you are correct. Let's assume Israel's Christian supporters long to convert all of the Jews in Israel.

What difference does it make as long as such attempts are limited to lawful exercise of free speech?

If Christians support Israel only because they are looking for converts, then don't worry. They will probably give up soon enough: being on Israel's side is very unpopular and thankless unless one does it just because they believe it the morally right thing to do.

It would be just as easy, if not easier, to win Jewish converts by insisting Israel is undeserving of support.

Well, yes, both acccept converts, but only one makes it their mission. The threat is that is would be possible to go beyond the exercise of lawful freedom of speech. I don't know about "the morally right thing to do," because no one is operating on the same moral principles. I also don't know about "giving up" or gaining converts "by insisting Israel is undeserving of support." The attempt to convert the Jews has been going on for thousands of years, so no one gives up easily. As for the latter point, please explain what you mean by that, too. I'm curious to know.

shiva

08-02-2002, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

You are permitted to feel insecure. Though it is baseless -- perhaps even pathogical paranoia -- as you are in a country that guarantees freedom of religion and has an excellent track record for the same.

What I object to is suggesting that all Christians who support Israel have ulterior "conversion" motives. We all know that Christian fundamentalism encourages proselytizing. But not all Christains follow this precept or even consider it appropriate.

No one can force you to convert to Christianity. Nor by any stretch of the imagination could one say that Jews in America are under pressure to convert.

I don't know about the actual practice of religious freedom, although in theory, that is true. I don't know about the rest of the country, but here, on high holidays, can you tell me why the synagouges have to be patrolled by police, to ensure the safety of all inside? Ok, let me clarify. I have met and do know Christian supporters of Israel, who admire the Jews and what they have done with Israel, in fact, I've heard them say, that in their opinion, Israel can do no wrong. But finding those people is like trying the find the proverbial needle in a haystack, moreover, these people were not zealots or even affiliated with any religion. I am speaking about the fundalmentalist groups, who are a force to be reckoned with. Maybe, in this case, "pathological" paranoia is warrented. Maybe the Jews aren't paranoid enough. What is alarming is that taking any of this at face can very well lead to a repeat of history. The real question about genocide, especially the Holocaust, is not "how can this happen;" but why doesn't it happen more"? Of course it does, all the time, albiet in subtler forms than the Holocaust, but the end results are the same. By subtler forms, I mean not as immense in scope, and not as profoundly systematic as the murder of the European Jews, but genocide is genocide, no matter how you slice it. It can even occur without murder. The slogan is " never again." You can see the mistake of blind acceptance.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Well, yes, both acccept converts, but only one makes it their mission.

Agreed.

The threat is that is would be possible to go beyond the exercise of lawful freedom of speech.

It's customary to not accuse people of a crime just because it's possible.

I don't know about "the morally right thing to do," because no one is operating on the same moral principles.

Moral laws are the same for everyone, whether they know it or not.

I also don't know about "giving up" or gaining converts "by insisting Israel is undeserving of support." The attempt to convert the Jews has been going on for thousands of years, so no one gives up easily.

I was referring to supporting Israel as a device to ensnare Jews.

As for the latter point, please explain what you mean by that, too. I'm curious to know.

It's quite simple: I'm saying that if their goal is simply to convert Jews, they don't have to support Israel at all. After all, if the punchline is that Judaism is wrong, why pretend that Israel is right?

JustPat

08-02-2002, 06:04 PM

If I may ...
Painting "Christians" with a broad brush does no more justice to us than painting Jews with a broad brush does for you. Though certain denominational persuasions live to put notches on their Gospel gun butt, they do not necessarily measure up to the biblical definition of "Christian". Not all those who call them selves Christian even believe in the basic common doctrines of the Christian faith. As a matter of fact, few mainline denominations even begin to resemble what the first century CE called Christian.
Those who are bent on converting Jews to Christianity by forcing them into a Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, or Pentecostal mold need to go back and study out the Scriptures. They may be shocked to find that G-d has always had a plan for Israel and that Israel is still on center stage in the "end times" they study so carefully.
My passion for Isreal is tied to my faith. Israel is the trunk of the tree that this branch is growing from. I owe my life to the Israeli scholars who meticulously passed down the Scriptures. I am forever in your debt for building a strong faith that carries people through the worst of adversity and teaches them how to live in such a way that the favor of G-d may rest upon them.
Israel is in my heritage both physically and spiritually. Iwill not abandon her and I will do whatever it takes to see her become a nation that can live in peace, the peace I pray for daily, the peace of Jerusalem.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Can you clarify these basic principles? I would be surprised if the end goals were remotely the same, or even on the same wavelength. But, maybe you can shed some light on this matter. However, I think it is understandable to realize, because of history, the folly of taking anything at face value. There is a real threat, and if you think some are putting the cart before the horse, please let me know why we should not be listening to what is NOT said. :)

Basic principles: The Jews in Palestine circa 1947 had the right to self-determination. Countries that are attacked by those bent on their destruction have the right to self-defense. Terrorist attacks on civilians are profoundly immoral. Etc.

I'm beginning to wonder if you accept the idea of universal principles...

Sure, it's wise to consider what is not said. But it's easy to carry that to an extreme. After all, there will never be alot of information available about what is not said -- it's almost entirely speculation.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by shiva

I don't know about the actual practice of religious freedom, although in theory, that is true. I don't know about the rest of the country, but here, on high holidays, can you tell me why the synagouges have to be patrolled by police, to ensure the safety of all inside? Ok, let me clarify. I have met and do know Christian supporters of Israel, who admire the Jews and what they have done with Israel, in fact, I've heard them say, that in their opinion, Israel can do no wrong. But finding those people is like trying the find the proverbial needle in a haystack, moreover, these people were not zealots or even affiliated with any religion. I am speaking about the fundalmentalist groups, who are a force to be reckoned with. Maybe, in this case, "pathological" paranoia is warrented. Maybe the Jews aren't paranoid enough. What is alarming is that taking any of this at face can very well lead to a repeat of history. The real question about genocide, especially the Holocaust, is not "how can this happen;" but why doesn't it happen more"? Of course it does, all the time, albiet in subtler forms than the Holocaust, but the end results are the same. By subtler forms, I mean not as immense in scope, and not as profoundly systematic as the murder of the European Jews, but genocide is genocide, no matter how you slice it. It can even occur without murder. The slogan is " never again." You can see the mistake of blind acceptance.

The reason your synagogue is patrolled by police is because there are a variety of anti-semitic forces. Some are Muslims, some are Christians, some are who knows. Most are Islamists and White Power militants.

But I seriously doubt your synagogue needs police protection from Christians who support Israel.

BTW, our synagogue is patrolled year-round. Some members were shot and killed by a sniper a number of years ago.

The rest of your post is pretty much unintelligible. Sure, I believe in "never again." But the enemy isn't our friends -- it's our enemies.

The vast majority of the US Congress supports Israel. So does the President. Are they secretly trying to rack up conversions? Do they represent a needle in a haystack? I don't think so...

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:24 PM

JustPat,

Well said.

And thanks for your support!

shiva

08-02-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Basic principles: The Jews in Palestine circa 1947 had the right to self-determination. Countries that are attacked by those bent on their destruction have the right to self-defense. Terrorist attacks on civilians are profoundly immoral. Etc.

I'm beginning to wonder if you accept the idea of universal principles...

Sure, it's wise to consider what is not said. But it's easy to carry that to an extreme. After all, there will never be alot of information available about what is not said -- it's almost entirely speculation.

What is not said that should be said. That's not speculation. There is a big difference between accepting universal principles and actually seeing them put into practice. Also in theory, morals laws are the same for everyone. Unfortunately, this does not translate into practice. Actually, what is moral is determined by a consensus, which does not mean everyone sees it the way you do. It would be great if they did. "the IDEA of universal principles", that's what it is. An idea. And that's a shame, but there you have the reality. It is naive to think that hidden agendas don't exist. Because a certain group professes solidarity and gives money, you automatically assume they want what you want, the way you want it. Come on. You know better than that.

shiva

08-02-2002, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

The reason your synagogue is patrolled by police is because there are a variety of anti-semitic forces. Some are Muslims, some are Christians, some are who knows. Most are Islamists and White Power militants.

But I seriously doubt your synagogue needs police protection from Christians who support Israel.

BTW, our synagogue is patrolled year-round. Some members were shot and killed by a sniper a number of years ago.

The rest of your post is pretty much unintelligible. Sure, I believe in "never again." But the enemy isn't our friends -- it's our enemies.

The vast majority of the US Congress supports Israel. So does the President. Are they secretly trying to rack up conversions? Do they represent a needle in a haystack? I don't think so...

Again, at face value, these are friends. Once more, I will say, FUNDAMENTALISTS, not Christians across the board. However, it so happens that it is the fundamentalists who make up the largest group of supporters. As far as the "enemy isn't our friends------it's our enemies", are you foolish enough to think that the enemy is always obvious? Do you think Bush supports Israel because of "universal principles". Do you think his support is based on some kind of altruism? As far as the "unintelligible" part of my message, that was an example of history repeating itself. Even if the aim/agenda of the X fundamentalists is to keep Islam at bay, do you think they see Israel the way you do? That our interests are on the same page. Maybe. Doubtful.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by shiva

What is not said that should be said. That's not speculation. There is a big difference between accepting universal principles and actually seeing them put into practice. Also in theory, morals laws are the same for everyone. Unfortunately, this does not translate into practice. Actually, what is moral is determined by a consensus, which does not mean everyone sees it the way you do. It would be great if they did. "the IDEA of universal principles", that's what it is. An idea. And that's a shame, but there you have the reality. It is naive to think that hidden agendas don't exist. Because a certain group professes solidarity and gives money, you automatically assume they want what you want, the way you want it. Come on. You know better than that.

No, what is moral is determined by God.

Sorry shiva, but ideas are very much reality. If you believe that ideas are ephemeral, and only material things are real, you are lost. Because then there can be no Free Will, no Truth, no Good.

I didn't say hidden agendas don't exist. But I've learned in life that the only way to determine someone's real agenda is by what they say and do. For example, if a Christian says they support Israel, and they do support Israel, and they don't try to convert me... then I can at least conclude that until I see some contrary indication they appear to be sincere and deserve some benefit of the doubt. The longer they behave trustworthy, the more trustworthy they are.

Really, it's OK to be suspicious when there are suspicious signs, and it's wise not to trust someone until you've had time to see them establish a track record, but it is extremely cynical to decide in advance that everyone must be up to no good just because it's possible.

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Again, at face value, these are your friends. Once more, I will say, FUNAMENTALISTS, not Christians across the board. However, it so happens that it is the fundamentalists who are the largest supporters (in numbers).

Well, we may be talking on different wavelengths. The thread is about the "Christian right." These are generally Christian conservatives who fervently support Israel. Some are best known as "Evangelical Christians." Some were once best known as "the Moral Majority."

There may be specific groups you call "fundamentalists" that we would both agree are ultimately looking for conversions -- and see Jews as "sinners" in desperate need of being "saved."

But I know for a fact there are many conservative Christians who simply believe Israel is the wronged party in this conflict, that terrorism is the most atrocious evil (after all, they consider both suicide and homicide to be sins), and that Jews are being persecuted for building a prosperous country through old-fashioned values like hard work.

shiva

08-02-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

No, what is moral is determined by God.

Sorry shiva, but ideas are very much reality. If you believe that ideas are ephemeral, and only material things are real, you are lost. Because then there can be no Free Will, no Truth, no Good.

I didn't say hidden agendas don't exist. But I've learned in life that the only way to determine someone's real agenda is by what they say and do. For example, if a Christian says they support Israel, and they do support Israel, and they don't try to convert me... then I can at least conclude that until I see some contrary indication they appear to be sincere and deserve some benefit of the doubt. The longer they behave trustworthy, the more trustworthy they are.

Really, it's OK to be suspicious when there are suspicious signs, and it's wise not to trust someone until you've had time to see them establish a track record, but it is extremely cynical to decide in advance that everyone must be up to no good just because it's possible.

Well, there you have it. Principles are determined by man, to you, by God. Secular Jews do not subscribe to a God. Ideas/concepts by themselves are not reality, and where did you get "material things"? No one is talking about material things. My point of reference is history. You want to wipe the slate clean. It is extremely Pollyanaish to think "well, that's all over now". Or, "if you're nice to me now, you're my friend." In another post, an opinion was expressed "at what price" and yet in another, "a short-term friend does not always make for the best long-term friend." I agree that the longer someone's good faith prevails, they deserve more trust, but this is a unique situation, and a great deal of caution is called for.

shiva

08-02-2002, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Well, we may be talking on different wavelengths. The thread is about the "Christian right." These are generally Christian conservatives who fervently support Israel. Some are best known as "Evangelical Christians." Some were once best known as "the Moral Majority."

There may be specific groups you call "fundamentalists" that we would both agree are ultimately looking for conversions -- and see Jews as "sinners" in desperate need of being "saved."

But I know for a fact there are many conservative Christians who simply believe Israel is the wronged party in this conflict, that terrorism is the most atrocious evil (after all, they consider both suicide and homicide to be sins), and that Jews are being persecuted for building a prosperous country through old-fashioned values like hard work.

I'm talking about the Christian right. Maybe I should not have called them fundamentalists. I'd love tomeet those people you know who believe what you say they do. Are you quite sure that, that is all there is to it?

ibrodsky

08-02-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by shiva

Well, there you have it. Principles are determined by man, to you, by God. Secular Jews do not subscribe to a God. Ideas/concepts by themselves are not reality, and where did you get "material things"? No one is talking about material things. My point of reference is history. You want to wipe the slate clean. It is extremely Pollyanaish to think "well, that's all over now". Or, "if you're nice to me now, you're my friend." In another post, an opinion was expressed "at what price" and yet in another, "a short-term friend does not always make for the best long-term friend." I agree that the longer someone's good are eager to faith prevails, they deserve more trust, but this is a unique situation, and a great deal of caution is called for.

By saying morality is determined by God, I mean that it is a law of the universe and not something subjective. If you think the laws of physics are nothing more than a consensus, then you are denying that they conform to something external and real. Physicists may come to a consensus about how to describe the way the universe works, but that doesn't mean that they just make it up.

Just as you are eager to dismiss Christian support for Israel, you are eager to put words in my mouth. I never said we should dismiss history. In fact, if you go back and read my posts throughout IsraelForum you will see that I have consistently argued that history matters; that there is historical truth; and that conflicts can't be resolved without confronting those truths.

Our difference is not that I am Pollyannish, but that you are cynical. You made that clear when you suggested that others' intentions are likely to be bad simply because it is possible. I exercise caution, but form judgments based on evidence. You form judgments first, but allow that occasionally some person might come along and prove your prejudice wrong.

You seem to think that Israel should generally refuse support from Christians -- or at least give the cold shoulder treatment. Fortunately, Israel's leaders have been wise enough to not only accept such support, but to seek it out and cultivate it.

BTW, if you are a secular Jew, do you reject the support of religious Jews? I am a secular Jew and am happy for any support Israel can get.

L@mplighterM

08-02-2002, 09:46 PM

I would trust very few people with my life (I think someone once said that a true friend is more precious than diamonds) but sometimes you can be left with no option other than accepting blind trust. I’m an atheist and as an atheist I believe only in evolution and the physical laws of the universe.

I have no love for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I have acquaintances from many religions (no Muslims or Jehovah’s) and religion really never enters into a conversation. No one has ever tried to convert me I suppose that’s because they know what reaction they would receive.

It’s estimated that the Jewry of the world is somewhere between 15-18 million and that’s not a high population base. I would say take support from wherever it can currently be found. The Congress of the USA supports Israel and even some of the US administration and they are certainly not all Jews.

Some countries in the EU have started cracking down on Radical Islam so in effect they have taken the same position as Israel in a small way. A wave has begun and it’ll build into a tidal wave sweeping Radical Muslims to hell where they belong that is my prophecy.

There will be more innocent lives lost before the battle against evil is won but it must be won.

Christian (not all denominations) and Jews, etc. are all in the same boat facing the dangers of Radical Islam.

shiva

08-02-2002, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I would trust very few people with my life (I think someone once said that a true friend is more precious than diamonds) but sometimes you can be left with no option other than accepting blind trust. I’m an atheist and as an atheist I believe only in evolution and the physical laws of the universe.

I have no love for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I have acquaintances from many religions (no Muslims or Jehovah’s) and religion really never enters into a conversation. No one has ever tried to convert me I suppose that’s because they know what reaction they would receive.

It’s estimated that the Jewry of the world is somewhere between 15-18 million and that’s not a high population base. I would say take support from wherever it can currently be found. The Congress of the USA supports Israel and even some of the US administration and they are certainly not all Jews.

Some countries in the EU have started cracking down on Radical Islam so in effect they have taken the same position as Israel in a small way. A wave has begun and it’ll build into a tidal wave sweeping Radical Muslims to hell where they belong that is my prophecy.

There will be more innocent lives lost before the battle against evil is won but it must be won.

Christian (not all denominations) and Jews, etc. are all in the same boat facing the dangers of Radical Islam.

I agree--------Israel cannot exactly refuse help when it comes, but I meant, that even when help is accepted, it would not be wise to become complacent. It is true that the Judeo-Christian world is being threatened by militant and radical Islam, which is scary. However, in an earlier post that agreed with my outlook, the author made a very good point in saying how long are we going to have to stay mute, to keep a few friends? Is it impossible for us to voice a protest against those who do try to convert, just so we don't make waves? And is that too high of a price? I don't know. But I think it bears mulling over.

shiva

08-02-2002, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

By saying morality is determined by God, I mean that it is a law of the universe and not something subjective. If you think the laws of physics are nothing more than a consensus, then you are denying that they conform to something external and real. Physicists may come to a consensus about how to describe the way the universe works, but that doesn't mean that they just make it up.

Just as you are eager to dismiss Christian support for Israel, you are eager to put words in my mouth. I never said we should dismiss history. In fact, if you go back and read my posts throughout IsraelForum you will see that I have consistently argued that history matters; that there is historical truth; and that conflicts can't be resolved without confronting those truths.

Our difference is not that I am Pollyannish, but that you are cynical. You made that clear when you suggested that others' intentions are likely to be bad simply because it is possible. I exercise caution, but form judgments based on evidence. You form judgments first, but allow that occasionally some person might come along and prove your prejudice wrong.

You seem to think that Israel should generally refuse support from Christians -- or at least give the cold shoulder treatment. Fortunately, Israel's leaders have been wise enough to not only accept such support, but to seek it out and cultivate it.

BTW, if you are a secular Jew, do you reject the support of religious Jews? I am a secular Jew and am happy for any support Israel can get.

ok, sorry, but do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that Israel should not accept help from Christians across the board. And not every Israeli, agrees with the policies of their heads of states and even the leaders are watching closely. I said to be cautious because not only is there a possibility, there is a precedence. ok. we agree on history. There is your evidence, for as you said, you base your opinion on evidence. There is a lot of evidence out there that supports the cautious view. However, if you did mean the laws of natural science, why didn't you say so? What possesed you to say God, especially if you are secular. And just how is morality a law of nature? Humans determine what is moral, nature our natural drives, which are separate things. But ask yourself, do the means justify the end? What price do people pay for what could be opportunistic actions? If I'm as cynical as you say I am, believing human nature is one way, then you'll have to live with Pollyanna, believing it is another. Now, I'm tired of this circling conversation that is going nowwhere, so Adieu, and goodnight. :)

shiva

08-03-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by raven
C: thank you for the information. Im going to investigate what you put up. Wish I could have written more clearly... Thank G-d for the internet...It can fill in what I left out.

I feel all alone out here asking Jews to please learn about what these very numerous amounts of peoples believe. We learn about everything else in the world..why not learn the true nature of who we are dealing with, what they believe, and what may be the price. There will be a price for the support of Israel. Yes we need the support...but what KIND of support is it?

Do look at the HolyLand Experience Themepark. This is run by a Messianic Jew...this one a convert. He leads his audience thru the Old Testament ...one liitle teeny change tho...even as it seems like a Jewish experience, it is set up to lead people to the conclusion that all that is in the Old Testament is merely a set up for the acceptance of Jesus and the New Testament. This is just one small example of Messianic Jews and what their own theology is. Most Jews are unaware of these groups and the Replacement groups...who would define us OUT of our own Religion. Pardon me..people..I think this is QUITE a problem.

Im asking all who are interested to read for themselves...thats all.

You are not alone in thinking that this is a serious and important matter, which, although Israel needs the help, needs to be understood as best as we are able to. I do think this is a problem, and a potential mess and danger, so the best thing to do is to prepare by educating ourselves-----no surprises and no complacency. In taking the help, all Jews need to be aware of the strings attached, the compromises that will have to be made, and the motive. All I ask is for people not to trust blindly. :)

shiva

08-03-2002, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by raven
Whats the true PRICE for Support of Israel? Hm?

For American Jews: Stated or unstated..do we censor ourselves on Abortion? Do we fight a little LESS rigeriously for stopping the blending of Church and State? What else do we "keep quiet" about so as to keep "our friends"?

Inside Israel? Whats the Price? Little LESS objection to Missionizing...targeting newly arrived Russian Jews and especially Etheopian Jews?

Is there really support for Isreal AS Israel the Jewish State OR is it support for Israel as Jesus Land To Come...when Revelations comes about?

America really IS a Christian Nation...and all America ever had to do was say NO to a Palistinian State. A Phony Constructed Terror State to Come inhabited by run of the mill Arabs of the Area..It IS a phony people...and they know it..and they are helping these Terrorist slice off pieces of Issrael to form this phony State. SOME SUPPORT.

Just saying it like it is...And remember the bottom line of Americas policy IS: Terrorism is Terrorism EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD...EXCEPT in Issrael and Against Jews...Hellooooooooo

These Raven, are the real concerns. Well said. I wish everyone could see the other side of the coin, and give what you say some serious thought. This "wait and see" attitude, and the willingness to accept that Israel's best interest is at heart, that it will stay a Jewish country, and that there is no ulterior motive, is dangerous. Israel might be between a rock and a hard place as far as help is concerned, but in accepting this help, everyone must be aware of any strings attached. Is this a total acceptance of Israel's way of life, will Jerusalem remain a Jewish city, do they support Israel's desires without change? Most of all, will Israel remain a Jewish country, and respected as such? I wish there was a contract for this sort of thing. However, I am going to look into every source you mentioned. Thanks for the info, some of it I did not know. As you say " a little less objection to Missionizing"........... The more we accept, the more we will compromise, until Israel loses it's foundations. Where does one draw the line? :)

Vic

08-03-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by trainspotter18
Shiva, u are a disgusting racist. You make me sick. People like are the reason why the holocaust happened.Anyone interested in starting a thread "samples of (Neo)Nazi statements"?

On a serious note: this is the point where even I ask for a poster to be banned from this forum. Such personal attacks are intolerable.

P.S.: In both of his/her incarnations, please: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=18992#post18992

shiva

08-03-2002, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by trainspotter18
Shiva, u are a disgusting racist. You make me sick. People like are the reason why the holocaust happened.

It doesn't which side you are on, you hold an evil idealogy.

mocking the Holocaust, no matter what you feel, is off-limits

ibrodsky

08-03-2002, 05:02 AM

shiva, as you noted in another thread, there are some things we agree on.

I am curious, though, because you didn't answer one of my questions. How do you feel about uniting with religious Jews in defense of Israel? While Jews do not proselytize to non-Jews, they certainly prosleytize among secular Jews.

You also agreed with Raven, whose real concern about the "Christian right" is that they oppose the popular liberal Jewish agenda. I have a newsflash: there are some religious Jews and even secular Jews (I am an example) who oppose abortion. I'm tired of hearing that abortion is one of the main issues facing the U.S.; it isn't. I'm tired of hearing that it is a "right" from people who just want to make sure they have a contraceptive of last resort; and I'm tired of hearing that destroying life is no big deal.

Maybe this sheds some light on the Christian right. They see terrorism as abortion of the already-born. And I agree with them. I also think a growing number of religious Jews are lining up with the Christian right on many issues: abortion, family vlaues, etc.

elke

08-03-2002, 06:55 AM

JustPat,

That was truly touching!

I have to admit, I waffle on this subject tremendously. I've met fire-breathing Christian zealots, ready to convert anything on two legs, and I've met - and worked with - truly enlightened, fine, and at the same time deeply religious Christians, with deep appreciation of the religious diversity and honest respect and love for Israel and her people.

Sometimes, I feel that we are way too insecure: after all, we have survived over 2000 years of attempts at conversion, with no Israel to help. At other times, however, I fear that we will have to "pay" for that support by selling our very soul.

Proselytizing by the religious Jews is not a scary thing, for me anyway, because the secular Jews have a similar goal at heart: the continuation of the Jewish culture. If a religious Jew can convince me that there is a G-d as described in the Torah, I would in fact be grateful! ;) It wouldn't change our worldview entirely, either, since the concepts of "good" and "evil" we accept are not at odds with what Judaism teaches.

shiva

08-03-2002, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
shiva, as you noted in another thread, there are some things we agree on.

I am curious, though, because you didn't answer one of my questions. How do you feel about uniting with religious Jews in defense of Israel? While Jews do not proselytize to non-Jews, they certainly prosleytize among secular Jews.

You also agreed with Raven, whose real concern about the "Christian right" is that they oppose the popular liberal Jewish agenda. I have a newsflash: there are some religious Jews and even secular Jews (I am an example) who oppose abortion. I'm tired of hearing that abortion is one of the main issues facing the U.S.; it isn't. I'm tired of hearing that it is a "right" from people who just want to make sure they have a contraceptive of last resort; and I'm tired of hearing that destroying life is no big deal.

Maybe this sheds some light on the Christian right. They see terrorism as abortion of the already-born. And I agree with them. I also think a growing number of religious Jews are lining up with the Christian right on many issues: abortion, family vlaues, etc.

Well, as far as the first question, it is very true that the Orthodox do go on about it. But I have found that with conservitive Jews, there really isn't a problem. Moreover, although this may sound hypocritical, I must be honest and say that it is easier with Jews, as I know where they stand as far as Israel is concerned. I must confess, I do have a problem with the Hasidim, but in Israel, they are a tiny minority, and no one really likes putting up with them. However, what is interesting is that their children have changed, and now insist on going into the army, although they are forbidden to use guns. they don't want to feel like outsiders. As much as you say a change is coming about in the diaspora, I think you will b