Shin Bet fears Jewish terror

[sharonbn]

New security chief says agency has no sense of humor when it comes to threats on Temple Mount; Yuval Diskin also concerned Israel may not be able to target Hamas terrorists should they become political leaders following Palestinian elections

JERUSALEM - Newly-appointed Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin expressed his concern Tuesday over the danger of terror attacks initiated by Jews.

In response to claims made by right-wing Knesset members that Monday's reports of plans to attack the Temple Mount were exaggerated, Diskin told the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, "The Shin Bet has no sense of humor regarding anything related to the Temple Mount."

He also addressed the possibility of attempts to assassinate Israeli politicians.

"Israeli society would not withstand another attack on a prime minister," he said. " If, God forbid, a senior political figure would be harmed by Jews, it would be an explosive wave that would possibly hurt Israel strategically."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086640,00.html

[KettleWhistle]

Yawn.

[Mediocrates]

It's kind of funny, in a dark way that people like me get a chuckle over, that you're waving your hands over your heads for exactly the same kind of fatuous threat condition rainbow silliness that you criticize us for. What's the Sharon Threat Color today? Fuschia? Steel? Kaddish?

[KettleWhistle]

Oh, no, it is very threatening to the "piece process" [sic] if those fanatical Joos will build a catapult to launch a pig into the Dome on the Rock.

[Gilgamesh]

JERUSALEM - Newly-appointed Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin expressed his concern Tuesday over the danger of terror attacks initiated by Jews.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086640,00.html

Typical Oslo style propaganda.
Back then, mere a decade ago, Shin Beit agent provocators gave actual interviews and allowed specaily elected "reporters" to witness and record their "underground" ceremonies and speaches...

Youth, in pre-military service (ha'chana tzva'it) drills, where said to belong to a secreat illegal "militia" or "underground" poised to take over the goverment... ect...

Spin doctares and fear mongers, utilizing the absolute ignorance of the <edited by moderator> far left Tel-Avivians about the religious and right wing people, so to white wash illegal govoerment policies.

[sharonbn]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

You certainly need to prop up your enemies and make them bigger than they actually are - that much is clear.

[sharonbn]

to that I say: Once bitten...

[Mediocrates]

Fair enough. But it pays to be rational and not try to paint all the settlers as glint eyed fanatics. Unless you have plans to lock them all into barb wire camps in the Negev they're going to be coming home to live among you. Maybe preemptively hating them is not such a good idea. It's not like you have a few million spare Jewish Israelis laying around.

[sharonbn]

No one tries to paint all the settlers as "glint eyed fanatics" (go reread the news item if you wish). and no one wishes to "lock them all into barb wire camps".
Following these kind of responses I would say that more than the left tries to "prop up" their enemies, the right is expressing excess paranoya at the legitimate and serious warning signs that come from unbiased, a-political security forces and inteligence sources.

and once more I will say this: we will all meet again after the attempted assasination of PM Sharon and/or bombing of temple mount, and then I would like to see some hats being eaten.

[Mediocrates]

Attempted? No harm no foul I say. Look someone tossed a Chinese handgrenade - probably one of those cheapass things built by school children, at Bush recently and it didn't go off. Real terrorists use American made Semtex - so if anyone's planning on throwing exploding swine at the al Aqsa or taking potshots at the most guarded man in the world, they'd better have a better backyup plan.

Today's threat rainbow color is

CLOWN

I think what this speaks to is a problem within the Shin Bet itself in terms of security vetting their own staff.

[KettleWhistle]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

Even if Rabin wasn't a criminal, which he was (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44), what is such a big deal about it?

[KettleWhistle]

BTW, Rabin's assasination had nothing to do with Right or Left. It had to do his betrayal of all Israelis and of all Jews.

[sharonbn]

Even if Rabin wasn't a criminal, which he was (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44), what is such a big deal about it?
we all know of your mizantropic pov
yawn

[KettleWhistle]

Not mizanthropic--that description belongs to the Israeli left--but realistic. There is little out there, aside from terrorist-praising Arab media, pseudo-liberal forums and publications, and neo-Nazi forums that can rival the hatemongering the malicious divisiveness spouted by Israeli left and HaAretz about the settlers. And again, what is such a big deal about some politician's death?

[ygalg1]

I disagree he was a traitor. he was drawn by his supporters to that limit he seems lost his grip of reality.

I hate to say it but his assassination prevented greater disaster.

I rather would satisfy if he were removed from his seat alive.

Muslims as we read their posts and witness their acts only proves that peace it is delusion. Just to look at there doctrine it is understood that there no place for non-Muslim lives. further more The accusation of Israel government been apartheid

Read this doctrine read their posts, majority votes for one thing. Their doctrine it is laws of apartheid.

They define their pro Palestinians as the left party Israelis “agnostic” who help them in meant time. And then when the goal will be accomplish the lefties going to make a decision stay secular and be shot or convert to Islam and live.

You the left supporters you have disgust over our own religion yet you support Palestinians who are 99% religious with that doctrine of theirs.

If some one should be called traitor in full scale it is you.

[Gilgamesh]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

The "Right wing" ??? I always thought only Yig'al Amir has murdered Rabin! Now I know the truth Sharonbn, I was involve in the murder myself, since I am right wing too... :rolleyes:

How stupid can one be?

If I took part in Rabin's assination (although I was still in regular service), the I suppose you took part in the season and the sinking of Altalena, which was filled, BTW by American Jews vollenteering to liberate Jerusalem. 26 guys murdered by Rabin, following Ben-Gurions orders that day.

[sharonbn]

First of all, when you use quotes, please make sure you're actually quoting the source. I didn't say right wing, I said extreme right.

Second, I don't believe I have to explain this:

Just because someone didn't pull the trigger does not mean he/she does not bear any responsibility.
What you describe is the classic shin gimel case.
Amir got the legitimacy and encouragement to do what he did from his surroundings and his role models. He is a product of the hate and incitement that dominated the right wing at that time (and still does). and if there will be an assassination attempt of PM Sharon, it will be the same story - a product of the uncontrolled hate and incitement of the right wing against its political rivals.

One more thing:
Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.
All (and I mean ALL) political assassination and violent acts belong solely to the right wing (e.g. Yona Avrushmi) All recent Israeli PMs (Rabin, Barak, Bibi and Sharon) were asked to wear bullet-proof vests because of threats from extremists of one side only. All Jewish terrorist groups since the establishment of the state of Israel (and most of them before that) belong to extremists of one side only. All Jewish lone terrorists belong to extremists of one side only.

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin. And I don't mean to praise this faction, they did their share of harming Israel's security, but its still a fact - they do not even think of the option to go and kill their political rivals.

So if you ask me if you took part in Rabin's assignation, the answer is I don't know. Maybe you were too young. But let me ask you this: Are you sure in your heart that you will not "take part" in the next political assassination? (and we ALL know which side will the killer come from...) remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say.

[KettleWhistle]

Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.
You are joking, right?

[sharonbn]

Despite rightist claims and provocations, Leftists (Israeli Leftists) do not support or even tolerate Palestinian terror attacks.

[KettleWhistle]

Ye, sure. That must be why they sound so somber when giving away more of our homeland to the enemy in response.

[KettleWhistle]

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin.
Probably not. Leftists do prefer group killings like Altalena and arming and assisting the enemy so that it can kill our people for them.

remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say. And of course the leftists' favorite tactics--harrasment and selective persecution of political dissedents.

[Gilgamesh]

First of all, when you use quotes, please make sure you're actually quoting the source. I didn't say right wing, I said extreme right. In my visit to whistlestopper forum, I found out that any one right to Ilan Papa is considered "extrem right". Extrem and less extrem are relative and qualitive matters. I reffered to the "right", in your quote.

Either way, you are wrong. I had nothing to do with Rabin's murder, nor am I welcome such a murder, however I disliked and actualy discusted from Rabin, both as a person and as a politician.

Second, I don't believe I have to explain this:

Just because someone didn't pull the trigger does not mean he/she does not bear any responsibility.
What you describe is the classic shin gimel case.

Thought, any thought, is never a crime. Unless you are ready to outlaw the whole Zionist ideology in Israel, you can't accuse anybody else outside the murderer and his co-conspiritors. The extrem left pathetic efforts to paint the whole Zionist movement in the same color is outragous, as if Rabin is the new Jessus and all Jews are guilty in his death for all eternity. Typical left wing BS.

Amir got the legitimacy and encouragement to do what he did from his surroundings and his role models. He is a product of the hate and incitement that dominated the right wing at that time (and still does). It was proven already the person behind it was a Shin Beith member, probabley following Rabin's own orders, working with Rabin's court jurnalists. I have been in Israel at the time, and I read the papers which most reminded me the Pravda in thier lies and gross distortions as well as their zeal to outcast political rivals.

Amir was probabley a loose cannon, a conspiracy that backfired. It will take decades or a revolution before all the dirt will be dug up, and all the skelatons in all the closets will be reveled.

and if there will be an assassination attempt of PM Sharon, it will be the same story - a product of the uncontrolled hate and incitement of the right wing against its political rivals. First, to kill Sharon one will need an elephant's gun. :p Secondly, Sharon survived twice near death battle wounds. he is proven to be indistructable. Last, there are no attempts on PM Sharon life, it's all leftist propaganda. And a propaganda of a very shallow soddy type. Poor quality, wholey unconvinsing.

One more thing:
Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end. Good point! I noticed it before, when I called the Leftists decadent. The leftist feature you've descrived, of avoiding violance at all cost, even if it for their own survival is on the hand, is one of the most accurate defenitions of decadence.

I glad to say, I am as far from decadence as one possibley be.


political assassination and violent acts belong solely to the right wing (e.g. Yona Avrushmi) All recent Israeli PMs (Rabin, Barak, Bibi and Sharon) were asked to wear bullet-proof vests because of threats from extremists of one side only. All Jewish terrorist groups since the establishment of the state of Israel (and most of them before that) belong to extremists of one side only. All Jewish lone terrorists belong to extremists of one side only. This is the most one sided rather bigot opinion I've ever read, Sharonbn. You actually excel yourself.

Political violance was the trade mark of MaPai till the 60's. Political persecution of opponnents, political discrimination on all walks of life, provocators and brute force were used to disband political conventions. Before that, there was the Season (סזון) where Leftist betrayed their Jewish brothers of the resistance, reported them to the British occupation ragime to be hanged at the Gallows! Next was the Altalena, which your St. Rabin holds prime resonsibilty. St. Rabin was clearly moved by his political hate. He was a communist back then. All full Stalinist red back then. Don't forget Rabin's tyranical mother, Red Rosa. Rabin's role moder, Yitzchak Sade, was among the communist revolutionaries stroming the Czar winter palace at St. Petersburg.

Last, but not least, can you qunatify the number of Jews that could die due to the efforts of the many pro-Soviet communist spies in Israel? All done they treason by pure political motivation.

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin. I don't agree. Israel is on course of creating our own Red brigades or Red Army terror cells, who political assiniations are their bread and butter.

<edited by moderator>

Maybe you were too young. I was 19!!! In green!!! waiting at home for another episode of Babylon5 which never came...

But let me ask you this: Are you sure in your heart that you will not "take part" in the next political assassination? Let me ask you this, are you that brainwashed to think such about me??? Am I really a murderer staff??

(and we ALL know which side will the killer come from...) remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say. Margalit HarShaffi was a perfect example of political persecution, and a stain on our democracy.

[Gilgamesh]

Despite rightist claims and provocations, Leftists (Israeli Leftists) do not support or even tolerate Palestinian terror attacks.
Have you been reading the latest Ha'aretz? Can you say such a thing in streight face??

[sharonbn]

You will not find in Haaretz a single item which condones terror attacks.
you will find descriptions of how Israel mistreats Palestinian civilians. You may dislike these articles, but they do not support terror attacks.

[sharonbn]

In my visit to whistlestopper forum, I found out that any one right to Ilan Papa is considered "extreme right". Extrem and less extrem are relative and qualitive matters. I reffered to the "right", in your quote.
Fine, so I have to explain myself: Extreme right is the various Jewish underground terror movements, like the one from Bat Ayn. Extreme right is also members of former Kach movement and spin off movements. Nice people like Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir.
This is, btw, the conventional definition. In any case, to take only "right" out of the quote "extreme right" and make it "right wing" (insinuating the whole right wing) is like taking "American Soldiers" out of "American Soldiers in Abu Ghraib". thereby insinuating that all American Soldiers were involved in torture of Iraqi POWs.

Thought, any thought, is never a crime. Unless you are ready to outlaw the whole Zionist ideology in Israel
I was not talking about thoughts. Right wing leaders and Rabbis didn't just silently "think" during 95. They also spoke a little, and it wasn't a whisper also. Are you that amnesiac that you don't remember the words, the signs, the pictures of that time?

I guess not. While the country was in high turmoil, you were "only" 19 and watching some sci-fi show on TV. You are right, you are not responsible for Rabin's assassination. I guess your responsibility extended as far as the remote control.

you can't accuse anybody else outside the murderer and his co-conspiritors.
This is simply not true in the legal sense. Legal terminology defines "ministerial responsibility" for the specific cases of "shin gimel" syndrome. Usually, the person who squeezes he trigger is not the real danger. The real danger comes from the leader who has a political agenda and manipulates naive youngsters.

The extrem left pathetic efforts to paint the whole Zionist movement in the same color is outrageous, as if Rabin is the new Jessus and all Jews are guilty in his death for all eternity. Typical left wing BS.
"all Jews are guilty in his death".... now that's what I call distortion.

It was proven already the person behind it was a Shin Beith member, probabley following Rabin's own orders, working with Rabin's court jurnalists. I have been in Israel at the time, and I read the papers which most reminded me the Pravda in thier lies and gross distortions as well as their zeal to outcast political rivals.
You "have been in Israel at the time"? meaning you're not here now?

Amir was probabley a loose cannon, a conspiracy that backfired. It will take decades or a revolution before all the dirt will be dug up, and all the skelatons in all the closets will be reveled.
There isn't a single political assassination that is not followed by conspiracy theories.

First, to kill Sharon one will need an elephant's gun. :p Secondly, Sharon survived twice near death battle wounds. he is proven to be indistructable. Last, there are no attempts on PM Sharon life, it's all leftist propaganda. And a propaganda of a very shallow soddy type. Poor quality, wholey unconvinsing.
Wow ,you're also funny. "there are no attempts on PM Sharon life". hilarious.

Good point! I noticed it before, when I called the Leftists decadent. The leftist feature you've descrived, of avoiding violance at all cost, even if it for their own survival is on the hand, is one of the most accurate definitions of decadence.

I glad to say, I am as far from decadence as one possibley be.

Aha... so let me get this "objective" observation:
Yigal Amir, Goldstein, Jewish undergrounds et al - they are all loose cannons, no indication of the right wing none whatsoever. But us Leftists are all decadent because we oppose violence as political means. All the leftist IDF soldiers and security forces who risk their lives to protect Israel, they are decadent...

Personally, I'd rather be decadent then a terrorist.

This is the most one sided rather bigot opinion I've ever read, Sharonbn. You actually excel yourself.

Political violence was the trade mark of MaPai till the 60's. Political persecution of opponnents, political discrimination on all walks of life, provocators and brute force were used to disband political conventions. Before that, there was the Season (????) where Leftist betrayed their Jewish brothers of the resistance, reported them to the British occupation ragime to be hanged at the Gallows! Next was the Altalena, which your St. Rabin holds prime resonsibilty. St. Rabin was clearly moved by his political hate. He was a communist back then. All full Stalinist red back then. Don't forget Rabin's tyranical mother, Red Rosa. Rabin's role moder, Yitzchak Sade, was among the communist revolutionaries stroming the Czar winter palace at St. Petersburg.

There we go again with the distortion.
I didn't say the left wing is never wrong and never engages in immoral means to get its political agenda. I explicitly stated that the extreme left, people like udi Adiv, have hurt Israel's security. But the fact remains: there was never an leftist underground terror movement that used violence. "political persecution" is not the same. No Israeli right wing political leader was ever assassinated. period.

Here's another difference for ya: Leftists acknowledge when their side is using wrongful immoral and/or illegal actions. I am yet to hear a rightist saying the same.

I don't agree. Israel is on course of creating our own Red brigades or Red Army terror cells, who political assimilations are their bread and butter.
Dream on. will never happen in Israel.

Margalit HarShaffi was a perfect example of political persecution, and a stain on our democracy.
Margalit HarShaffi is the epitome of right wing over piousness. First they all shout "Rabin should be killed" and show pictures of him in Nazi uniforms, their Rabbis issue Din Rodef, their political leaders use inciteful rhetoric, then they act all surprised when some stupid a** takes their words face value.

Thoughts do not kill, words do.

[ygalg1]

sharonbn for a guy visiting ummah forum you should know better it is lost attempt for building a normal relations.

Muslims have their doctrine which you and me have no right to exist by it except if been convert to be a Muslim.

Are you willing to live as a Muslim in the name of peace?

[sharonbn]

sharonbn for a guy visiting ummah forum you should know better it is lost attempt for building a normal relations.

Muslims have their doctrine which you and me have no right to exist by it except if been convert to be a Muslim.

Are you willing to live as a Muslim in the name of peace?



There is no such doctrine.
in fact, for centuries, Jews have lived in peace in Muslim states. Spanish Jewry golden age was under Muslim rule. It ended when the Christians conquered Spain. Of course, the Israeli-Arab conflict has stained these relations and many Arabs (incl' Christian Arabs) hate Israel today. This is also true the other way around. but there is no "doctrine" to convert all Jews to Islam or vice versa.

AFAIK, Christian evangelism wishes to see all Jews converted, once they all live in Israel.

[ygalg1]

בוודאי שיש, תורתם קיימת 1400 שנה. שלום לא שרר בנינו דאז ולא עכשיו

אכן נתנו לנו לחיות בקרבתם איך כמו בכל מקום היינו השוליים והזכויות משולים לזכיותיו של כבש.

אתה כנראה לא קראת את תגובתו של היסטוריה בפורום אומה

היום זה השתנה וגלש לטווחים יותר רחבים בניגוד מן העבר הם יותר ניחושים בתורתם כפי שלא היו קודם, הפנאטיות אצלם עלתה דרגה.

אתה בשבילם עוד כלי ניצול לאינטרסים שלהם, ברגע שיושמו כולן אתה משול למת.

הנוצרים עשו זאת בעבר איך מיתנו את עצמם כיום. הסיבה שהם לא יכלו יותר להתגונן כנגד טענות כמו אז, וזאת בגלל הקדמה לכן יש רבים שנוטשים את תורתם. אין להם את אותו הכוח.

לעומת זאת המוסלמים השתכללו ועושים זאת יום, יום בכדי לשייף את תורתם ולכל טענה יש להם תשובה. והם מאוחדים אם כי לא פוליטית איך בדת הם גוף אחד וזה מה שמאיים עלינו כל הזמן וימשיך ויתפרץ ומי שיהיה אשם זה אתה. כי אתה הוזהרת ובחרת להתעלם. הם לא משוחדים בטכנולוגיה ובקדמה הם לימודי סבל ומאומנים למות ללא שום היסוס. ממליץ לך להיות יותר קשוב למה שהם אומרים ומה תורתם אומרת עלינו.

שלום לא מעניין אותם הם רוצים לשרת את אללה ולעשות כרצונו. וכרצונו ע"פ גרסתם כוללת השמדת העם היהודי.

תקרא את הנבואה המתקרבת שלהם ומה היא כוללת.

[sharonbn]

ygalg1

Despite the name, this is not an Israeli forum and is not intended for Hebrew discussion. You should write your posts in English, so that everyone can read and respond. You wouldn't like it if they wrote in Arabic at Ummah, would you?

and to the point: I believe you are mixing two separate concepts: religion and fanaticism. Islam does not advocate the elimination or conversion of all Jews. The problem is religious fanaticism. and that is a problem regardless of the specific religion. Jewish fanatics are dangerous just as Christian and Muslims ones. in fact, fanaticism and extremism is dangerous in all areas of life.

I feel closer and certainly more comfortable among moderate religious people then extreme secular ones.

Moderation is the key to humane and long lasting life.

[KettleWhistle]

There is no such doctrine.
in fact, for centuries, Jews have lived in peace in Muslim states.

Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

Jews were always second-class citizens in Muslim states, with the only exception of those who lived within the Ottoman Empire under Turks. Other than that, they had to smile and thank those Muslims who spit in their face.

And here is what the people you support have to say:

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world...the Jews are a virus like AIDS hitting humankind...Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts....Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews but what the Jews did to Germany. True, the Germans killed and burned Jews but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy…. " - Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis, PA's TV Chief, May 13, 2005, Gaza


The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to dismiss the head of Palestinian Television over the airing of a live sermon from a Gaza Mosque delivered by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis which was filled with antisemitic attacks and denials of the Holocaust.


During the sermon, in the presence of uniformed Palestinian Authority police, the Sheik also asserted that God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews, and that God has also predetermined that Christian-Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.


"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Mahmoud Abbas," charged Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Wiesenthal Center.

[ygalg1]

ygalg1

Despite the name, this is not an Israeli forum and is not intended for Hebrew discussion. You should write your posts in English, so that everyone can read and respond. You wouldn't like it if they wrote in Arabic at Ummah, would you?

and to the point: I believe you are mixing two separate concepts: religion and fanaticism. Islam does not advocate the elimination or conversion of all Jews. The problem is religious fanaticism. and that is a problem regardless of the specific religion. Jewish fanatics are dangerous just as Christian and Muslims ones. in fact, fanaticism and extremism is dangerous in all areas of life.

I feel closer and certainly more comfortable among moderate religious people then extreme secular ones.

Moderation is the key to humane and long lasting life.

Apology in advance

The key does not fit to there door you going to have to break it through

[minusthejihad]

Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.

That's just because they are wussies, but everyone knows that anyway.

[ygalg1]

<edited by moderator>

if you won't wake up well it is on your head

[KettleWhistle]

Leftists do condone violence. That is the violence against their own, while yelling and screaming against applying any violence to people who hurt Jews and Israel. And let's not forget that the Israeli left initially rose to prominence on the blood of their political opponents.

[FOGOMAINS]

בוודאי שיש, תורתם קיימת 1400 שנה. שלום לא שרר בנינו דאז ולא עכשיו

אכן נתנו לנו לחיות בקרבתם איך כמו בכל מקום היינו השוליים והזכויות משולים לזכיותיו של כבש.

אתה כנראה לא קראת את תגובתו של היסטוריה בפורום אומה

היום זה השתנה וגלש לטווחים יותר רחבים בניגוד מן העבר הם יותר ניחושים בתורתם כפי שלא היו קודם, הפנאטיות אצלם עלתה דרגה.

אתה בשבילם עוד כלי ניצול לאינטרסים שלהם, ברגע שיושמו כולן אתה משול למת.

הנוצרים עשו זאת בעבר איך מיתנו את עצמם כיום. הסיבה שהם לא יכלו יותר להתגונן כנגד טענות כמו אז, וזאת בגלל הקדמה לכן יש רבים שנוטשים את תורתם. אין להם את אותו הכוח.

לעומת זאת המוסלמים השתכללו ועושים זאת יום, יום בכדי לשייף את תורתם ולכל טענה יש להם תשובה. והם מאוחדים אם כי לא פוליטית איך בדת הם גוף אחד וזה מה שמאיים עלינו כל הזמן וימשיך ויתפרץ ומי שיהיה אשם זה אתה. כי אתה הוזהרת ובחרת להתעלם. הם לא משוחדים בטכנולוגיה ובקדמה הם לימודי סבל ומאומנים למות ללא שום היסוס. ממליץ לך להיות יותר קשוב למה שהם אומרים ומה תורתם אומרת עלינו.

שלום לא מעניין אותם הם רוצים לשרת את אללה ולעשות כרצונו. וכרצונו ע"פ גרסתם כוללת השמדת העם היהודי.

תקרא את הנבואה המתקרבת שלהם ומה היא כוללת.




Translation needed :D

[goliath]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle]Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

K.W. this text is kind of weapon with a double edge...
Slandering ,slandering ,it remain always something.....
In the brain of the reader.......Agree?

[ygalg1]

Translation needed :D

Sure there is. Their doctrine, exist over 1400 years.

There was no peace exist between us not then and not now.

Yes they let us live among them. But like in any place we were fringe. Our rights were comparable to the sheep rights.

You have not read History comments on ummah forum.

Present day its change and slide to broaden ranges. In contrast from the past they became more determine in their doctrine like it never was before, their fanaticism up to a high rank.

You for them no more then a tool to serve their interests, in the moment all these will be implemented. You are good as dead

The Christians tried the same in the past, today they became moderate the reason for that cause they incapable to defend them self against claims as before, thanks to modernism this is why many abandon from this doctrine. They lost their power.

In contrast with Muslims they got perfected and they practice every each day to sharpen their doctrine knowledge to any claim they got an answer. They united however not politically but as concern to religion they are one body.

That what’s threat us all the time. And it will continue so until it burst and who will be blame for that, it is you! cause you been warn yet decide to ignore. They are not bribed by tech and modernisms they learned suffer and trained to die without hesitate.

Recommend you to be more attentive to what they say and what their doctrine say about us.

Peace does not appeal them. They want to serve Allah and his will. And in his will in their version included annihilation of the Jews.

Read their coming prophecy to be carried out and what it’s contain.

[KettleWhistle]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle]Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

K.W. this text is kind of weapon with a double edge...
Slandering ,slandering ,it remain always something.....
In the brain of the reader.......Agree?
No, I don't agree. A double-edged sword is a lousy weapon and presenting reality as it is, isn't slander.

[Gilgamesh]

...

[FOGOMAINS]

Sure there is. Their doctrine, exist over 1400 years.

There was no peace exist between us not then and not now.

Yes they let us live among them. But like in any place we were fringe. Our rights were comparable to the sheep rights.

You have not read History comments on ummah forum.

Present day its change and slide to broaden ranges. In contrast from the past they became more determine in their doctrine like it never was before, their fanaticism up to a high rank.

You for them no more then a tool to serve their interests, in the moment all these will be implemented. You are good as dead

The Christians tried the same in the past, today they became moderate the reason for that cause they incapable to defend them self against claims as before, thanks to modernism this is why many abandon from this doctrine. They lost their power.

In contrast with Muslims they got perfected and they practice every each day to sharpen their doctrine knowledge to any claim they got an answer. They united however not politically but as concern to religion they are one body.

That what’s threat us all the time. And it will continue so until it burst and who will be blame for that, it is you! cause you been warn yet decide to ignore. They are not bribed by tech and modernisms they learned suffer and trained to die without hesitate.

Recommend you to be more attentive to what they say and what their doctrine say about us.

Peace does not appeal them. They want to serve Allah and his will. And in his will in their version included annihilation of the Jews.

Read their coming prophecy to be carried out and what it’s contain.










Thanks for the translation. Printed it to study it (old-fashioned :)

[goliath]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle][QUOTE=goliath]
No, I don't agree. A double-edged sword is a lousy weapon and presenting reality as it is, isn't slander.

presenting reality as it is ....in general or on this forum....?....

The basic little difference is in my Jewish opinion this one :

I accept some remark if it came from a Jew , but if that person is not defined or (undefined) as a Jew ,I do consider , his so call objective analyse as an voluntarily offensive one .....or as an rash act ,or worse..
And lousy , seems to be a not necessary adjective ...not very classy...
Using that kind of adjective , put the dirt only on the person who is using it...

[ygalg1]

Thanks for the translation. Printed it to study it (old-fashioned :)

be my guest

[Gilgamesh]

NewsGuy and other moderators. The poster Sharonbn STILL accuses me with accomplicement with Rabins murder, on the basis of my ideological affilation (to the center-right Israeli politics). When I've commented on it, Sharonbn simply deleted my comments instead of answering them.

I do hope You'll take care of it. Sharonbn drifts toward the margions of common sense and fairness.

So if you ask me if you took part in Rabin's assignation, the answer is I don't know.

Sharonbn, if you DARE to delete this message, I'll simply post it all over the place, the and time again exponantialy. So watch it!

[Ophra]

July/August 1999

Israel: A Sharply Divided Society on the Brink of a Cultural Civil War

By Allan C. Brownfeld

The election victory of Ehud Barak as Israel’s new prime minister has caused many observers in the U.S., in Israel and in the Arab world to hope that the peace process will once again move forward.

Exactly how forthcoming the new Barak government will be, of course, remains to be seen. And while the future course of the peace process remains uncertain, what seems clear is the fact that Israeli society is sharply divided over fundamental issues and appears to be on the brink of a cultural civil war.

Stanley Greenberg, the pollster who has served both President Clinton and Mr. Barak, has worked in many countries and was struck by the depth of disagreement on fundamental questions in Israel. Even in South Africa, he said, there was no basic discord over the nature of the state once apartheid ended and democracy was introduced. “But in Israel, on religious–secular issues, on security–peace issues, and on land issues, a range of groups sees that losing the election threatens their way of life,” he said.

Many Israeli voters, for example, were Russian-speaking immigrants who arrived this decade from the former Soviet Union. Angry at the neglect of the previous Labor Party government, they voted 2 to 1 for Netanyahu in 1996. This placed them in a coalition with Likud’s ultra-Orthodox allies. Their rights of residency, marriage and funeral arrangements were in the hands of the Interior Ministry, controlled by members of the ultra-Orthodox Shas Party. Because a significant number of the new immigrants are married to non-Jews, their children are not considered Jews by the Orthodox and, as a result, cannot marry in Israel or be buried there.

“When the Interior Ministry doesn’t recognize a member of one of our families as a Jew, it really hurts,” said Michael Raif, a Russian immigrant who is deputy mayor of Rishon LeZion, Israel’s fourth largest city. In some cases, he said, the obstacles posed by the Interior Ministry have caused immigrants to return to the former Soviet Union. These tensions drove many Russian immigrants to turn away from Netanyahu and cast their votes for Barak.



[Deleted copyright violation. Please only post relevant excerpts of copyright articles]

[Gilgamesh]

July/August 1999

Israel: A Sharply Divided Society on the Brink of a Cultural Civil War

By Allan C. Brownfeld

Israel will not be able to stand this way before an enemy or confront the difficult challenge of peace…Years after the assassination [of Yitzhak Rabin] we have learned nothing and forgiven nothing; we are in exactly the same place. This is a nation that is not even capable of mourning together.”


I am sorry to dissappoint you, but there is an effective Taboo in Israel against a civil war. Civil war was a factor speeding our collapse before empirial Rome.

Since we Jews have lost our sovereignity, we made the debate a sport and the political struggle a national interest for the last two thousand years. We are on the brink of cultural war for half of our national existance. Some more friction means absolutly nothing.

I am appauled by your choise to jump the band wagen of defamation of religious jews at all costs, instead of focusing on the real issues of curroptions of the far left and the goverment. Israel current string or curroption scandles got nothing to do with religious jews.

On the other hand I do reject the on going arrangement that exist with the Jewish Orthodox society in Israel, but "cultural war" serves no purpose. Transformation in Orthodox society exists although slow. We have to encourge thier change instead of "taking arms" against it.

I suppose it's all boils down to electoral interests and Democracies Achiles heel. You support the Arabs who will vote for far left parties, while you hate the Orthodox who vote to Zionist right and Religious parties (who often hold right wing ideas regaurding the conflict).

[Gilgamesh]

[b]Can a society in which a large bloc of voters seek to replace the civil law mandated by a political democracy with religious law, and are willing to use violence when its desires are thwarted, maintain its identity as a state which is both Jewish and democratic? You (or Mr. Brownfeld) have yet to prove such a block exists!
Religious Jews exist, and they do wish to see Israel more religious, but how can one jump into conclusion they are willing to do violance? or that they are a majority within religous society? Or that they are poised to replace civil law entirely?

[quite] Can such a divided society avoid a cultural civil war? [/quote] There is no real divid, just different people with different oppinions about the shape of ideal society. Let a thousand flowers bloom slogan seems to have no affect in matters concerning your crusade against religous society.

[b]Can it move forward toward a genuine peace with its neighbors? Religous society in Israel has nothing to do with the absance of peace. Arabs prefer war reguardless of political situation in Israel. The left is self delluding if it thinks itself to be less hated by the Arabs then the right. Arabs, like any other haters, do not reward collaboration.

These are the questions which Israelis, Israel’s friends throughout the world, and its Arab neighbors are asking. I don't believe the Arabs are concerning themselves with such matters. It's stupid to think they are.

[quote]The most recent election has not made the answer any more clear. Likud took power, Terror took a down turn, and the left still eats it's heart out.

The failur of the disengagement plan which the left swallowed hook line and sinker, would only further foul the smell of the left by Israeli voters.

[Ophra]

"Talking with Jewish Extremists"

In these excerpts from her 2003 book, Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill, Jessica Stern, a leading expert on terrorism, recounts her conversations with two members of the Temple Mount Faithful, a messianic group of Jewish extremists who are followers of the teachings of Rabbi Kahane and who seek to destroy the Muslim holy sites built where the Jewish Temples once stood. They are also dedicated to expanding Israel's borders to encompass the entire biblical Israel. Stern, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, spent four years interviewing extremist members of three religions: Christians, Jews and Muslims.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/


"Days of Rage"

This March 2005 Jerusalem Report article by Leslie Susser examines what might be coming in the struggle over Ariel Sharon's plan to remove all Jewish settlers from Gaza and from four settlements in the northern West Bank starting in July 2005. Are right-wing opponents exaggerating when they warn Sharon's plan will lead to a "civil war?" Susser looks at the Kahanists actively leading the opposition, those Israelis ideologically aligned with them, and the three major strategies Israeli authorities expect their opponents to adopt. She also assesses the potential cracks in the solidarity of settler opposition to Sharon's plan.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

Terrorist Groups

This page of The Council on Foreign Relations site on terrorism links to the page "Kach, Kahane Chai" which offers background on these two Israeli terror groups, including their roots in the teachings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, their links to terrorist attacks, whether they were involved in the 1995 assassination of Yitshak Rabin, their U.S. supporters and their status in Israel.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/


On Assassinations and Attempted Assasinations, and Yigal Amir

An article offering the views of Binjamin Zev Kahane concerning the assassination of Yitzak Rabin and Rabin's killer,Yigal Amir. Binjamin, the son of Rabbi Meir Kahane, took up his father's mantle after the rabbi was assassinated. Binjamin himself was assassinated in Israel in 2000. More of his political commentary can be found elsewhere on this Kahane site. And while the main page of this site notes it is "being reconstructed," the "category" scroll bar on the top right links to a range of selections including a photo gallery, biography of Kahane and more by and about him.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

U.S. List of Known Kahanist Groups and Aliases

This list is from Presidential Executive Order 13224: "Blocking Property and Prohibiting Transactions With Persons Who Commit, Threaten to Commit, Or Support Terrorism." (Sept. 2001)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

Kach, Kahane Chai - International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism

The Institute for Counterterrorism is a research institute dealing with solutions to international terrorism. The "Arab-Israeli Conflict" link at the top of this site links to "Terrorist Organization Profiles" which collects background articles and documents on the Kahane Movement and its offshoots.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

[Ophra]

Writing is on The Wall For Sharon, Settlers Warn

Hebron - "Sharon, Lily is waiting for you." The message being spray-painted around Israel contains menace: Lily, Ariel Sharon's wife, died of lung cancer in 2000; now hardline Jewish opponents of the prime minister are willing him to join her.

The alternative version of the graffito - "Sharon, Rabin is waiting for you" - is a more direct threat. It refers to Yitzhak Rabin, the former prime minister who was assassinated in 1995 in protest at his moves towards making peace with the Palestinians.

Rabin's assassin, Yigal Amir, is one of two poster boys for Israel's extreme right, a group estimated to number several thousand who mostly live in West Bank settlements. The other is Baruch Goldstein who died, in the eyes of a minority of Israelis, in glory after killing 29 Palestinians as they prayed in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron.

Both represent the pinnacle of Jewish violence, an undercurrent which is mostly submerged but is expected to re-emerge in opposition to the Israeli government's plan to withdraw from its settlements in the Gaza Strip in July.

Barely a day goes past without Israeli newspapers reporting on the threat to the government from the extreme right. These threats are taken seriously by the Israeli authorities and the Jewish division of the internal security agency, the Shin Bet.

The Israeli right believes that the state of Israel should have its biblical borders. For some that means from the Euphrates in Iraq to the Nile in Egypt, but as an absolute minimum it should consist of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Many also want all Palestinians to be deported.

For them Mr Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza is a religious crime which should be stopped by any means.

Noam Federman, a polite and friendly man who is currently under partial house arrest in a small enclave of deeply religious settlers in the centre of Hebron, places a stone - a Jewish mark of commemoration - on Goldstein's grave before speaking of Mr Sharon's crimes.

Mr Federman insists he is against violence and law-breaking, but adds that he would not prevent or condemn anyone else from stopping the evacuation of the Jewish settlements in Gaza. "The Sharon government is criminal. It has crossed all the red lines. No one should expect their opponents to behave differently. It's not about legality, it's about morality. I follow God's law," he says.

If he became aware of a person, such as Goldstein, who planned to commit an attack, he says he would not alert the authorities. "I do not work for the police or the Shin Bet," he says.

Since 2002, Mr Federman has either been in detention or under full or partial house arrest. He has been accused of complicity in attacks on Palestinians and the planting of a bomb near a Palestinian school in Jerusalem.

He denies involvement and prosecutors have not been able to mount a substantial case against him. However judges have agreed that he represents an adequate threat to law and order to have his freedom curtailed.

His associates take the same tone, paying lip service to the law, but rejecting the government as illegal, and endorsing extreme acts in opposition to disengagement.

The extreme right in Israel is not a single grouping. Many of the groups inspired by Rabbi Meir Kahane have been outlawed for the their racist ideology, but their unofficial label is "Kahanists".

So far their actions against disengagement have been little more than civil disobedience and intimidation, but many Israelis fear a second Goldstein or Amir.

Baruch Marzel formed Kach after the assassination of Kahane in New York in 1990. Disengagement from Gaza, he says, is as serious a crime as the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews.

"We have had one Holocaust. These things were passed in a democratic way and we paid a high price. Oslo was passed in a democratic way and we paid dearly.

"The disengagement plan was promoted by a corrupt prime minister with a corrupt family, by a corrupt cabinet in a corrupt way."

The government, he says, has no right to take Jews away from the land that was granted to them by God.

"We are loyal to what God wants. We are loyal to the demands of the land of Israel and we are not willing to give up one inch. We will stop Sharon one way or the other."

Mr Marzel foresees a split in the Jewish nations between what he sees as leftwingers and the religious. He is confident that the religious, with their high birth rate (he has nine children), will take over Israel.

"We have kids while the leftists have cats and puppies. The next generation is ours, no doubt. The question is what damage will they do before we can take over," he says. "We cannot be Jewish and be part of something that goes against God. I am willing to do anything I can to stop this.

"This is worse than killing my kids or raping my daughters," he adds.

Mr Federman agrees and says he is not concerned about the outbreak of a civil war among the Jews. "This is already a civil war," he says.

Source: The Guardian

[Ophra]

Israel weighs possible crackdown on Jewish extremists

By MARGARET COKER
Cox News Service
Thursday, February 24, 2005

JERUSALEM — A recent note addressed to the wife of Israel's defense minister warned: "We will wreak our revenge against you and your children." Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the chief recipient of such mail, received at least one that declared: "Death to traitors."

In a country that a decade ago lost a prime minister to a Jewish ultranationalist assassin, the disclosure that Israeli cabinet members are receiving an increasing number of threats has sent shockwaves through the nation as the government prepares to withdraw troops and Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip.

On Sunday, parliament approved legislation needed to dismantle the Gaza settlements, an action expected to take place this summer. Some opponents of the "disengagement" plan have vowed to stop it even if it costs them their lives.

Israel's intelligence agencies say that they have no evidence of specific plots against Sharon or other government leaders.

But tensions are high.

An outspoken settler leader, Itamar Ben Gvir, has organized violent demonstrations and made provocative statements.

"We will fight with all the power we have," Ben Gvir told a news conference last week. "This country will bear witness to an unprecedented uprising and the public will finally begin to understand what is really going on."

Politicians say it's time to take pre-emptive measures against known Jewish extremists.

"Wake up before it is too late," Dalia Rabin-Pelossof, the daughter of slain leader Yitzhak Rabin, urged in a recent newspaper commentary. "If we don't do enough now to stop the deterioration, we once again will see the terrible spectacle of a prime minister assassinated."

Rabin was killed by a Jewish assassin in 1995 after his attempts to make peace with the Palestinians and cede land to them in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war.

Polls show that more than 70 percent of Israelis support Sharon's disengagement plan. The vocal minority against the Gaza pullout maintain that the policy contradicts God's will for the Jewish people, the biblical promise of a "Greater Israel."

The largest Jewish settler advocacy group, the Yesha Council, advocates civil disobedience to halt the removal of Gaza's roughly 8,000 settlers. But Yesha says it does not condone violence against soldiers or police.

The Shin Bet security agency, Israel's equivalent to the FBI, fears that some Israeli right-wing fringe groups won't be so measured in their response to disengagement moving ahead.

Avi Dichter, the head of the agency, has said he believes plans could be afoot to sabotage the country's utilities, blow up Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque, which is Islam's third-holiest shrine, or even assassinate officials in charge of the planned Gaza withdrawal.

Sharon has asked Shin Bet to prepare recommendations for employing the country's administrative detention law against Jewish extremists.

The law allows the government to hold suspects for an unlimited period of time without bringing charges. It is frequently used to arrest Palestinians — of the 7,500 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, around 860 of them are under administrative detention, according to figures cited in December by B'Tselem — but has rarely been used against Jewish citizens.

Gideon Ezra, the government minister for public security, said the law should be used liberally and immediately.

"These people give instructions in closed meetings and there's nothing you can do about it," Ezra told Israel Radio, referring to the Jewish fringe groups. "The only way to deal with them is to put them in administrative detention. I don't like it, but I think we are going through a difficult period, and I don't want clashes."

Ezra said Ben Gvir would be a leading candidate for administrative detention. The Shin Bet is expected to complete its policy recommendation next week.

Ben Gvir said he organized anti-disengagement protests in Jerusalem earlier this month during which demonstrators injured 30 police officers.

"This fellow has lost all understanding of what is permitted by the law," Ezra said.


The agency has already identified two other far-right activists who could be targeted in a crackdown.

Ben Gvir, Noam Federman and Baruch Marzel live in settlements in Hebron, one of the largest Palestinian cities in the West Bank. They are followers of slain Jewish extremist leader Meir Kahane, whose political party was outlawed in Israel in the early 1980s because of its racist tenets.

Ben Gvir and Marzel have never been charged with politically motivated crimes.

The Shin Bet arrested Federman in 2003 on charges of helping to plan and organize a foiled terrorist attack at a Palestinian girls' school. He was subsequently convicted on lesser violations and is under house arrest. He is not prohibited from meeting colleagues or talking to the media. He reportedly has hosted the brothers of Yigal Amir, Rabin's murderer, at his home.

Federman, when asked by Israeli television in an interview last week if he considered violence against Israeli politicians legitimate, replied: "I didn't take out Rabin. I didn't weep when he died, but I didn't wipe him out."

He also said that if someone "takes out" Sharon it wouldn't be him or his friends.

Margaret Coker can be reached at mcoker(at)coxnews.com

[minusthejihad]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?

[Gilgamesh]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?
Ophra reminds me that iconic housewife, who sees a tiny little mouse and automaticly jumps from the chair to the kitchen table screaming her lungs out, till all the family and neighbors come over, togather with the police, fire fighters and an armored infentry brigade.

[Ophra]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?


?????.... you want more ....okaaaaaaaaay :D

[Ophra]

Ophra reminds me that iconic housewife, who sees a tiny little mouse and automaticly jumps from the chair to the kitchen table screaming her lungs out, till all the family and neighbors come over, togather with the police, fire fighters and an armored infentry brigade.

:D

Pssssst ... your spelling sucks ;)

[Ophra]

Settlers, then and now

In the late 1920s several hundred devoted far-Left Zionist pioneers packed up and left Mandatory Palestine for good. They were members of an organization called Gdud Ha'avoda (Labor Battalions), founded in 1921. During the six years of its existence they reached a maximum number of 700, though over 2,000 passed through their ranks until their disbandment. All of this at a time when the entire nascent Yishuv numbered barely 100,000. During those years, they undertook extraordinary pioneering labor projects: paving roads, drying out swamps, and blasting stone quarries.

The reason those hundreds deserted was red-hot ideological fighting over proposals to turn the battalion into a country-wide, kibbutz-like workers' commune.

The majority preferred to settle down in permanent farm settlements like Ein Harod and Tel Yosef. But a minority – who took this as a sign of "bourgeoisification" – left in disgust for Stalin's Soviet Union, where they set up communes in the Crimea. They soon fell victim to the paranoid dictator's purges.

What reminded me of this near-forgotten chapter in early Zionist history is its analogy to aspects of today's emotion-laden debate surrounding the removal of the Gush Katif settlers.

That – and the fact that my mother was a member of the Gdud majority for several years. She organized a group of eight female pioneers who worked at the Nur Match Factory in solidly Arab Acre. She left – not for ideological reasons and not to the Soviet Union, but to New York City – to marry my father, produce me and return to Palestina, Eretz Israel, post-haste.

The members of the Gdud were what sociologists might classify as a "service elite," a self-proclaimed group putting itself at the disposal of "the people" or its declared mission. Later on this sense of purpose was called halutziyut.

Independent Israel would never have arisen had it not been for this sense of service to the Zionist cause imbued in the kibbutz movement, a successor to the Gdud Ha'avoda. This is manifest from the kibbutz movement's disproportionate role in the settlement of the country, in the establishment of the Israel Defense Forces, in bearing the brunt of the casualties in Israel's founding wars, and in immigrant absorption.

After several decades of mind-boggling achievements in nation-building, many burnt-out third- and fourth-generation kibbutz members turned into self-serving elites concerned more with their own material success than with furthering the Zionist mission.

MANY OF the founding members of the national-religious Gush Emunim movement also conceived of themselves as a service elite. It is fair to doubt, however, if that is also true of the bulk of Gush Katif settlers, many of whom have built posh lives on the backs of exploited Palestinian and Thai workers.

In last weekend's Jerusalem Post UpFront magazine, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin wrote that "we... the proud members of the settler movement – must search our souls. It seems that we have not succeeded in winning the minds and hearts of the majority of Israel's citizens. Could it be that by insisting on ritual criteria for accepting residents in most of the settlements, and by our general silence regarding most issues adversely affecting non-observant Israelis, we have alienated ourselves from the majority of our countrymen?"

The answer to Rabbi Riskin's rhetorical question can only be a resounding yes.

It took about four generations for the original vigor of the kibbutz service elite to deteriorate. The national-religious settlers managed to lose theirs in slightly more than one. But that is no justification for bleeding the entire country to provide an entirely unacceptable level of compensation for the displaced settlers.

The level of compensation now being negotiated with the settlers' lawyers is unconscionable. So are proposals for resettling them at the expense of national park areas at Nitzanim. The monumental guilty consciences of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the other bulldozers behind the settlement movement is fully understandable. But the nation as a whole should not be the ones to pay to assuage it.

Displaced settlers should be compensated munificently only if they agree to serve as a service elite by settling where the country needs them most – in the Negev and Galilee or, if politically possible, on the Golan Heights, in the Jordan Rift or in Judea and Samaria. Otherwise they should be compensated only to a level that would return them to the standard of living they enjoyed before moving to Gush Katif.

It is even more important that Orthodox authorities such as Rabbi Riskin take the lead in countering the settlers' threats to mount a major campaign of civil disobedience whose purpose is to destabilize the country and sow disunity in the armed forces.

Sadly, nearly all the rabbis in the settlement movement have, so far, have been backing exactly such a campaign. This can only lead to an intensified hatred for all things religious by the majority of non-observant Israelis.

Source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1115519111902&p=1006953079865

[minusthejihad]

So, some dyslexic people think your name is Aphro

[KettleWhistle]

Did I mention that posting whole articles without copyrights holder's permition is against the rules?

*scrolling down to the delete button*

[minusthejihad]

I must thank you for bolding some paragraphs as I wouldn't care less without them. Except that everytime I read your bold paragraphs, I'm always wondering:

"What is this crazy ___ point?"

[Ophra]

Did I mention that posting whole article without copyrights holder's permition is against the rules?

*scrolling down to the delete button*

Delete all you like KW ..... just proves what I have always said ... that you are a facist ... and that the right-wingers cannot handle the TRUTH .

[Ophra]

I must thank you for bolding some paragraphs as I wouldn't care less without them. Except that everytime I read your bold paragraphs, I'm always wondering:

"What is this crazy ___ point?"

I didn't post them for you son...... there are those that read here that do have some little grey cells up top ;)

[minusthejihad]

you are a facist ... and that the right-wingers cannot handle the TRUTH .

I couldn't get a better quote out of this guy (http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004/11/27/new_mini_moonbat_fits_in_your_sidebar).

Seriously though, how does an Israeli mother of four serving in the IDF end up sounding like a 16 year old American Anarchist at an A.N.S.W.E.R convention?

[Gilgamesh]

:D

Pssssst ... your spelling sucks ;)

And your point is?

Those who left with no real answer, always pick on my typos. It's their ultimate sign for those, for acknowladging my superiority.

[KettleWhistle]

I didn't post them for you son...... there are those that read here that do have some little grey cells up top ;)

I'm sure that you have a very smooth and unwavered layer of these right under your sculcap.

[Ophra]

I couldn't get a better quote out of this guy (http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004/11/27/new_mini_moonbat_fits_in_your_sidebar).

Seriously though, how does an Israeli mother of four serving in the IDF end up sounding like a 16 year old American Anarchist at an A.N.S.W.E.R convention?

FYI I am a mother of five .... three are serving in the IDF the other two are too young (yet) .

Probably because I learnt my English from American volunteers whilst I was volunteer leader on my Kibbutz.
My mother tongue is Hebrew ..... how is your Evrit ????
I was fluent in Arabic by age 8 ... I also get by in Spanish and French. Sorry I don't know Yiddish or Russian... I decided to learn the languages that would do me the most good in this modern world ;)

[Ophra]

And your point is?

Those who left with no real answer, always pick on my typos. It's their ultimate sign for those, for acknowladging my superiority.

It was tit for tat Gilgamesh.... you want to keep up the personal attacks instead of the subject under discussion then go right ahead ... I will be right behind you with a responce.

Ya ya your "superiority" for being right or being wrong ?? ;)

Ditto ... see my sig.

[Gilgamesh]

It was tit for tat Gilgamesh.... you want to keep up the personal attacks instead of the subject under discussion then go right ahead ... I will be right behind you with a responce.

Ya ya your "superiority" for being right or being wrong ?? ;)

Ditto ... see my sig.

Every other single poster here, understood my reference to histeric housewife as a legitimate attack on your ideas, not a personal attack.
I guess you are not as smart as you considered yourself after all, if you couldn't understand my simple post. I hope you could understand this post... if you encounter any difficutly, feel free to ask our help. Me and other posters will be glad to help you out!

[Ophra]

Every other single poster here, understood my reference to histeric housewife as a legitimate attack on your ideas, not a personal attack.
I guess you are not as smart as you considered yourself after all, if you couldn't understand my simple post. I hope you could understand this post... if you encounter any difficutly, feel free to ask our help. Me and other posters will be glad to help you out!

Sure Gilgamesh, sure. :rolleyes:
If you knew anything about Kibbutzim you know there is no such thing as a housewife ... I have worked and studied full time since I was 13. I am not only a wife and mother I run a small business and employ my own staff.
Oh I'm smart Gilgamesh..... I not only understood your personal attack I also debunked every argument you put up against the original poster.... or didn't you read the articles ?... maybe the English was too much for you ??? :)

No thanks .... I need no help from religious right-wingers like yourself .... after all we managed to build this country and defend it against all odds without you.... so what would I need you for on here ???

[Gilgamesh]

Sure Gilgamesh, sure. :rolleyes:
If you knew anything about Kibbutzim you know there is no such thing as a housewife ... I had no idea you are from a kibbutz. But what strikes me odd is the fact you consider it to be a source of pride. I can't understand what seems to be so wonderful for you to be a memeber of disfunctional drugged decadent backwarded values empty society. In israel, all relatively normal Kibbutznics flee as fast and as far as they possibley can.

Modern Kibbutzes, other then selected few, are best associated with convict rehabalitation. Is that you little bussiness? Helping durg addicted gangsters? I think it great!

I have worked and studied full time since I was 13. I am not only a wife and mother I run a small business and employ my own staff. How wonderful for you!!!

Oh I'm smart Gilgamesh..... Smart Kibbutznics vote Likud and live in Herztelia. I guess you ain't one of those, are you?

I not only understood your personal attack I also debunked every argument you put up against the original poster.... ROFL!!! :D ... sorry, you didn't. You just poured huge vollumes of words by AMERICAN (i.e foregin) far left (Jews???) who supply their puny irrlevent ideas with no real facts and much to much empty propaganda to fill up thier ignorance while actualy dealing with American politics, using Israel as a poor analogy.

Yes, people like Marzel or Amir are real and they do exist. It is stupid to consider them main stream in Israel, or to associate them with world domination conspiracies. It is idiotic to consider tiny little mice like them to huge men eating elephants from planet Zog.

Fanning up extrem left Histeria doesn't prove or debunk anything.

Sorry, you debunked nothing. Just gave us the ignorant ideas of some far leftis, nobody realy care what they think.

Had you been realy smart, and just a bit more knowladgeable of you true worth, you'd know one cannot prove an idea, by pasting the ideas of other people. If you choose to do so, first find somebody credible to quote.

or didn't you read the articles ?... maybe the English was too much for you ??? :) Sorry, there is a limit to the amount of nonesense I can take.

No thanks .... I need no help from religious right-wingers like yourself .... after all we managed to build this country and defend it against all odds without you.... so what would I need you for on here ???
I am not religious. I am not anti-religion either. I am your avarage Zionist secular Israeli, with strong roots in Jabotinsikian (secular Revisionist Zionist) ideology, with affiliation to modern conservative ideology and Objectivian philosophy (Ayn Rand). Had I been American, I'd vote Republicans. Had I been British I'd vote Torries. Had I been French I'd move to Israel.

BTW,
Hate to bring it so hard that way, but... Stalin died 52 years ago...
worst: USSR doesn't exist anymore...

[Ophra]

I had no idea you are from a kibbutz. But what strikes me odd is the fact you consider it to be a source of pride. I can't understand what seems to be so wonderful for you to be a memeber of disfunctional drugged decadent backwarded values empty society. In israel, all relatively normal Kibbutznics flee as fast and as far as they possibley can.

Modern Kibbutzes, other then selected few, are best associated with convict rehabalitation. Is that you little bussiness? Helping durg addicted gangsters? I think it great!



ROFL ..... what a load of old revisionist rubbish :D
PS... they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ??????????

Nope ... it's computer related ... thanks for asking.

Oh here I go copying and pasting again ;)..... always thought folks out there would prefer my thinking backed up by others facts ...you might like showing off your "superiority" :rolleyes: by babbling your bull ... but we can't all be like you now can we :.........

Israel Kibbutz and Moshav

The first kibbutz, Deganya, near the Sea of Galilee, was founded in 1910. In addition to the two largest kibbutz federations, HaKibbutz HaMeuhad (the United Kibbutz Movement) and HaKibbutz HaArtzi (the Kibbutz of the Land), there were in 1988 a number of small movements including the agricultural collective settlements of the religious HaKibbutz HaDati, affiliated with the labor wing of the National Religious Party. In 1986 there were 125,700 residents of about 265 kibbutzim, divided among five kibbutz federations. The kibbutz is a collective settlement, originally devoted solely to agriculture, but since the late 1960s, it has included industrial concerns, too. Founded by social democrats, kibbutzim are characterized by the collectivization of labor and capital: the means of production, consumption, and distribution are communally owned and controlled, with considerable emphasis on participatory democracy in the operation of kibbutzim. Education and, in some federations, the rearing of children in age-graded dormitories, are communal as well.

Until the 1980s, the kibbutz and its residents played a largerthan -life role in Israeli society. Kibbutzim embodied the courageous and selfless pioneer who settled the most difficult and dangerous areas to claim them for the Jewish state. They sent the highest proportion of young men to elite units of the army and its officers' corps, and later to positions of responsibility in the Histadrut and the government. If there were a sociopolitical elite in Israel (not an economic one, because members of the kibbutz lived with simplicity), it came from the kibbutzim.

This highly positive image no longer held in 1988 for a number of reasons. First, the kibbutz was to a large extent a victim of its own successes. Its economic success raised the standard of living of the average member into the solid middle or upper middle class. It is difficult to conceive of a rural village with air-conditioned housing, a well-equipped clinic, a large auditorium, and an olympic-sized swimming-pool as a pioneer outpost. Second, the economic success and the expansion of the kibbutz economy has forced it to go outside the community to hire labor--a direct contradiction of its earliest canons. Third, the membership of kibbutzim has been overwhelmingly Ashkenazi. Often the labor hired, if not Arab, consisted of Oriental Jews who resided in development towns near the kibbutz. Oriental Jews complained that the only time they saw members of kibbutzim as near equals was when the members came to town just before national elections to lobby the Orientals for votes for the left-of-center parties aligned with the kibbutzim. The turn of the mass of the Israeli electorate to the right wing was both a reflection and a cause of the loss of social prestige for the kibbutz, which has suffered a relative loss of influence in the centers of power in Israel. Nevertheless, the kibbutzim still contributed to Israel's economy and sociopolitical elite out of proportion to their number.

The first moshav was established in the Jezreel, or Yizreel, Valley (Emeq, Yizreel is also seen as the Valley of Esdraelon in English) in 1921. In 1986 about 156,700 Israelis lived and worked on 448 moshavim, the great majority divided among eight federations. There are two types of moshavim, the more numerous (405) moshavim ovdim, and the moshavim ufim. The former relies on cooperative purchasing of supplies and marketing of produce; the family or household is, however, the basic unit of production and consumption. The moshav ufi form is closer to the collectivity of the kibbutz: although consumption is family-or household-based, production and marketing are collective. Unlike the moshavim ovdim, land is not allotted to households or individuals, but is collectively worked.

Because the moshav form retained the family as the center of social life and eschewed bold experiments with communal child-rearing or equality of the sexes, it was much more attractive to traditional Oriental immigrants in the 1950s and early 1960s than was the more communally radical kibbutz. For this reason, the kibbutz has remained basically an Ashkenazi institution, whereas the moshav has not. On the contrary, the so-called immigrants' moshav (moshav olim) was one of the most-used and successful forms of absorption and integration of Oriental immigrants, and it allowed them a much steadier ascent into the middle class than did life in some development towns.

Like the kibbutzim, moshavim since 1967 have relied increasingly on outside--particularly Arab--labor. Financial instabilities in the early 1980s have hit many moshavim hard, as has the problem of absorbing all the children who might wish to remain in the community. By the late 1980s, more and more moshav members were employed in nonagricultural sectors outside the community, so that some moshavim were coming to resemble suburban or exurban villages whose residents commute to work. In general moshavim never enjoyed the elite status accorded to kibbutzim; correspondingly they have not suffered a decline in prestige in the 1970s and 1980s.

Source:http://www.photius.com/countries/israel/society/israel_society_kibbutz_and_moshav.html

[Gilgamesh]

PS... they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ?????????? What you call "preference" I call curroptio and nepotism. Over all, we Right wingers and Religious Zionist are on the front line, manning the elite army units and the frontier towns and villages.

Nope ... it's computer related ... thanks for asking. Painting old computers may send a powerful ecological message for recycling for young crimminal youth! Good job!

Oh here I go copying and pasting again ;)..... always thought folks out there would prefer my thinking backed up by others facts ... Facts? I rather you look at the dictionary first, learn the defenition for the word fact, before you use it out of hand like that! It make you look silly, you don't want to look silly do you?

You have yet to come up with facts. Leftists are known to ignore or by pass hurting issues, like reality for instance.

you might like showing off your "superiority" :rolleyes: by babbling your bull ... but we can't all be like you now can we :......... Wake up and smell the coffie! We are on top (sort off), your people NOT! We are supperior in any walk of life, our society is metaly healthier and advancing. Your done and out. Kibbutzes vanish.

Israel Kibbutz and Moshav

...

Source:http://www.photius.com/countries/israel/society/israel_society_kibbutz_and_moshav.html

I know Isael's history, and your source is out dated, missing many facts and realities.

[Womble]

they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ??????????
LOL! "Your" boys are neither liked by the army anymore, nor are they eager to serve. It's been a couple of decades since the elite combat units had high percent of kibbutzniks among them. You know who they are made of these days? Religious Zionists, Russian Jews, Ethiopean Jews and the Druze. The kibbutzniks in the army are now divided into two groups: those who are jobniks and those who want to be ones.

[Ophra]

What you call "preference" I call curroptio and nepotism. Over all, we Right wingers and Religious Zionist are on the front line, manning the elite army units and the frontier towns and villages.

BaHaaaaaaaaaaaaHoHoHo .... more like stoning our kids in uniform and spitting on them for speaking Arabic and not wearing kippas . (..you can check out my other posts to get the facts ) Religious Zionist are on the front lines when it comes to sedition and violence against anyone that does not think like they do or disagrees with their ideology. The settlers and the settler movement are a curse on our society .... hopefully Sharon and Bush will cleanse us of their stench soon.

Painting old computers may send a powerful ecological message for recycling for young crimminal youth! Good job!

Most amusing....... but you are wrong again

Leftists are known to ignore or by pass hurting issues, like reality for instance.

Te he .... I'm not a Leftist ... I voted Likud last elections ... I also stated on here previously that if I was American I would be a Republican ..... so your wrong again

Wake up and smell the coffie! We are on top (sort off), your people NOT! We are supperior in any walk of life, our society is metaly healthier and advancing. Your done and out. Kibbutzes vanish.

....... no comment but laughter .

I know Isabel's history, and your source is out dated, missing many facts and realities.

I have lived Israel's history ...... you are out dated and missing many facts and realities .

(PS.... your spelling still sucks )

[Ophra]

LOL! "Your" boys are neither liked by the army anymore, nor are they eager to serve. It's been a couple of decades since the elite combat units had high percent of kibbutzniks among them. You know who they are made of these days? Religious Zionists, Russian Jews, Ethiopean Jews and the Druze. The kibbutzniks in the army are now divided into two groups: those who are jobniks and those who want to be ones.

Yeah right ... another Russian that knows it all :rolleyes:

My husband is a very senior Army officer (you would be surprised) both my sons are Lt. Colonels and career officers ... my father was a General.... so go guard your shopping mall Womble :D

[NewsGuy]

Do you think it would be possible to get this thread back on to its substance? Has any substantive point been made in the first place?

[Gilgamesh]

Do you think it would be possible to get this thread back on to its substance? Has any substantive point been made in the first place?
We are on the topic, NewsGuy. Ophra and Sharonbn convinced there is far right plot to take over Israel and forbid selling pork by law. I think otherwise. Other then couple of celebrity wirdows adored by the inforteiment media for thier fanatic ideas, such a plot is a joke.
I said to Ophra she considered mice to elephants, imagioning mountains and towers floating in the air where none really exsit. So she mentioned I write with typos.

Go figure!

[sharonbn]

Ophra and sharonbn's delusions are backed up by the leftists-gang-controlled Israeli security and inteligence communities which make repeated assassments of the desire and planning of the extreme right (whatever that is, no-one seems to know, probably another lefitst media fabrication) to bomb temple mount as well as their threats to assassinate PM Sharon.

Someone here made the asssessment that the whole story is a media spin (more eloquantly said "Typical Oslo style propaganda") So I brought up the case of PM Rabin's assassination as an example that these guys are serious (we say "with receipts" in Israel ;))

My claim regardng PM Rabin's assassination is that at that time, no one in the shabac and other agencies regard voices from the extreme right with enough seriousness. Moreover, no one in the right wing thought that there should be a limit to protest expressions. No one thought that Rabbis issueing Din Rodef or pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms would lead to an assasination. This is what I refer to when I say that many in the extreme and not-so-extreme right should feel some responsibility for the murder of Rabin. Their rethoric and incitement drove Amir to act. He would not have acted had he known there is no public legitimacy to this act.

It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

[KettleWhistle]

Some angry person mouthing off something about the government, doesn't make the "extreme right wing" responsible for it, and doesn't make his hate mail into a threat from an "extreme right-wing" conspiracy.

[Ophra]

Ophra and sharonbn's delusions are backed up by the leftists-gang-controlled Israeli security and inteligence communities which make repeated assassments of the desire and planning of the extreme right (whatever that is, no-one seems to know, probably another lefitst media fabrication) to bomb temple mount as well as their threats to assassinate PM Sharon.

Someone here made the asssessment that the whole story is a media spin (more eloquantly said "Typical Oslo style propaganda") So I brought up the case of PM Rabin's assassination as an example that these guys are serious (we say "with receipts" in Israel ;))

My claim regardng PM Rabin's assassination is that at that time, no one in the shabac and other agencies regard voices from the extreme right with enough seriousness. Moreover, no one in the right wing thought that there should be a limit to protest expressions. No one thought that Rabbis issueing Din Rodef or pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms would lead to an assasination. This is what I refer to when I say that many in the extreme and not-so-extreme right should feel some responsibility for the murder of Rabin. Their rethoric and incitement drove Amir to act. He would not have acted had he known there is no public legitimacy to this act.

It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

Very well said sharonbn. I completely agree with you .

What I am amazed by is that the extreme right ( whoever they may be ;) ) seem to think that it is only Leftists that are against them.... which is completely untrue. The Army,the security forces,the average man on the street and all moderates from all the parties, except the religious parties, have had their fill of their violence and abuse of our Laws.
Did you see this article on Ynet ??

Wild Wild West

Silent majority should take action in face of anti-pullout protests
By Guy Ronen

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to hell. Have you ever wondered how hell really looks like? Look outside your car window: smoke and fire - burning tires, road spikes, yeshiva students screaming to high heaven in desperation, a young girl in orange attire dancing the Hora (bloodshed is apparently on the way) - and all of this smack in the middle of a highway near you.

Recently the Anti-Terrorism Bureau issued a travel warning urging Israelis to refrain from going to Bolivia. What about Jerusalem and the Tel Aviv area?

The Wild West is here. There is no judge or jury - every man for himself. For us this may be a new reality, but for the yeshiva student and young girl in orange it is a way of life.

Just read attorney Talia Sasson's report on settlement construction, and you'll understand how they think.

These "good fellas" have ignored the country's laws and the government's decisions for some time now; it's just like the recently married far right activist Itamar Ben-Gvir and his wife said: When a state based on halacha (Jewish law) is established here, we will try the prime minister and the rest of the Cabinet members. In the meantime, we'll give you hell.

'We're fed up'

How many of you believed right-wing activists would shut down the country Monday? How many of you actually refrained from traveling on the highways?

Oh please, we said, why would they carry out their threats this time? Police forces are positioned in every intersection!

But we were mistaken.

How did they do it? And where were the police when I was trying to get home after a grueling workday? Good question! But there is another, even more important one: Where the hell were we?

Only four years ago we were petrified when Galilee Arabs shut down the Wadi Ara region; a "fifth column" we called them at the time, and we saw no shame in firing live ammunition at them. Because when the economy suffers and roads are shut down, the protests become a strategic threat.

God forbid we should open fire at the anti-disengagement protestors, but it should be made clear: We cannot remain silent as this "highway intifada" continues.

Perhaps we should block major traffic arteries on the eve of the Sabbath as the religious Jews hurry home? Perhaps we should lock up their schools, or adorn their offices and parties with flags of our own chosen color, a mixture of turquoise, green, and beige, just as they have done to our beaches?

But we are the silent majority, and truth be told, even we are not amused by our own gimmicks.

The question is whether we will remain passive or stand together - police, government, courts, citizens, and the moderate settler leaders - and say to the settlers: We are fed up with you and your gimmicks. Start obeying the law or you will be dealt with as criminals.

Guy Ronen is a news editor at Ynet

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086546,00.html

[Gilgamesh]

Sharonbn, you accused me on taking part in Rabin's assasination (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=142705&postcount=44). How do you pleed?


It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.

For how long more, will you keep on ignoring the facts reguarding Avishai Raviv and his actions as Shin Beith provocator agent. The scilance of the media over this story is purly political. The state attorny which allowed Avishai Raviv actions, Arebel, promoted to the high court of no justice, in a suspicious and doubtful process.

[KettleWhistle]

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?

They've got to learn that they'll be stereotyped, blamed, persecuted, and used as an excuse to suppress civil liberties anytime they happened to disagree with government's desicions.

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.

None of that was the reason Rabin got killed. It was the fault of his security detail that didn't do their job. Shabak or not, Rabin's policies were highly unpopular and damaging. Every single one of the high-level politicians has someone who wants him/her dead, and would be willing to go the distance. This was the case with Rabin, and a cartoon or a religious nut yelling "kill him" had nothing to do with it.

[sharonbn]

Sharonbn, you accused me on taking part in Rabin's assasination (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=142705&postcount=44). How do you pleed?
Maybe its enough with this stupid thing?
I explained several times what I mean when I accuse the right wing of driving and aiding the murderer of Rabin. I didn't mean you personally so why insist on this childlish accusation? Get back on topic.

You can say I am wrong about my statements regarding the right wing. Fine. but I will hear no more of this stupidity.

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?
I rest may case.

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.
again with the conspiracy theories.... booooring. show some evidence or cease with this, yet another stupidity.

[minusthejihad]

The settlers and the settler movement are a curse on our society .... hopefully Sharon and Bush will cleanse us of their stench soon.

What a sentive caring person, worried about liberties and human rights. I would love it if my mother spoke like a Mullah.

[Ophra]

It can happen again: Nine years since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin

We must admit that nine years since the assassination of Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin, we have not yet laid his ghost to rest.

It is necessary to explain for those who do not know, that Yitzhak Rabin dedicated his life to the service of his country. He fought for the liberation of Jerusalem in 1948. As Chief of Staff, he was responsible for Israel's victory in 1967. He served Israel as Prime Minister in the 70s and was responsible for the brilliant rescue operation in Entebbe. It is necessary to repeat that Rabin chose to give up territory not because he hated settlers or Jews, but because he hated war, and he understood that there could be no Israel and no Zionism without peace, and no Jewish state without a territorial compromise.

It is necessary to explain, because unfortunately there are too many in Israel who really imagine that Yitzhak Rabin was a traitor, some sort of "leftist" anti-Zionist. They do not understand that a father of the Zionist movement was murdered. It took an Arab commentator, Fuad Ajami, to understand that the assassination of Rabin was Israeli national patricide.

The assassination should have been a watershed event in Israeli society, but it was not. Nothing fundamental changed. While many individuals were deeply shocked and re-evaluated their views of Zionism and of our society, society and politics continued to drift in the dangerous direction dictated by the assassin, Yigal Amir, and his small but stubborn group of supporters, and the much larger group that "understood the motives" of Yigal Amir without approving of the method.

The pragmatic Zionism of the founders was coopted by religious Zionism, a contradiction in terms. Zionism is based on the premise that the Jews are a people, and therefore need their own nation-state. Orthodox Jews were originally opposed to Zionism, and insisted that the relation between the land and the Jews was a religious one, a theoretical one, that would be fulfilled in the Heavenly City of Jerusalem brought about by a miraculous Messiah, rather than in an earthbound state made by flesh and blood people like David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and Yitzhak Rabin.

There could be Zionists who are also religious Jews, and those who are Zionists because of their faith, but religious Zionism as an ideology is an oxymoron, and it leads to practical dangers. A religious state has no sanction in the international community. The only salient examples are Iran and Saudi Arabia, neither of which are worthy of emulation A flesh and blood state, unlike a heavenly Messianic one, must make compromises to exist in the real world. World opinion, military feasibility and economics must be taken into consideration when making real-world policy decisions. A messianic state need only follow the dictates of the Messiah or his stand-ins. A state that relies only on God's protection, and on God's word as interpreted by rabbis, is headed for disaster. As the Israeli Knesset headed for a vote on disengagement, orthodox and ultraorthodox parties went to consult their rabbis, like ancient Romans consulting the augurs before a battle. Alas, the omens were unfavorable. The goat had a bad liver, as ascertained by the Rabbis for Greater Israel of the National Religious Party, by Ovadia Yosef of the Shas party and the Council of Torah Sages of United Torah Judaism.

Because we have not laid the ghost of Rabin to rest, the dangers brought home by his murder are still with us and have grown. This time the target is not Yitzhak Rabin of the Labor movement, but the ex-arch-hawk Ariel Sharon. The clash between Sharon and the Frankenstein of fanatic religious Zionism that he and his colleagues have nurtured is inevitable. Any sane politician, no matter what his beliefs, must be a pragmatist in the final analysis. Pragmatism and divine dictates must inevitably clash at some point, and they have. Now, as in 1995, rabbis insist that those who follow the policy of the Israeli government are traitors. One rabbi offered to conduct a medieval Pulsa Di Nura ceremony on PM Ariel Sharon, to cause his demise by magic means. Security experts including GSS (Shabak) chiefs, warn that we are only one step away from an actual planned assassination attempt, and perhaps worse, that there are Jewish groups planning to destroy the mosques on the Temple Mount in order to bring about the last messianic war and the establishment of the third temple.

The question before us is not, unfortunately, whether or not we have continued the legacy of Rabin or respected his memory. We have not. It may well be that we could not have made peace with the Palestinians through no fault of our own, but it is certainly true that we have not made an honest effort. The 100,000 settlers who have accumulated in the West Bank since the assassination of Rabin are proof that we have not chosen the path of peace. The question is not whether or not we have eradicated the pernicious core of the ideology represented by Yigal Amir. We have not Amir prospers in jail. He has a girl friend or wife, Larissa Trimbobler, bride of Frankenstein come to life, and a not inconsiderable following.

In the middle ages people fought and won battles because they had visions. Soldiers marched off to save the Holy Land from the Saracens. The Maid of Orleans fought at the command of the Lord. In some countries in the Middle East, such considerations still prevail. A word from an Iranian Mullah can start a war or build an atom bomb because God wills it. A word from a Hamas Mullah can send a suicide bomber to blow himself and thirty other people to kingdom come. The question is, whether we are building a society like Iran or the Hamas, or whether we are building a modern state. That is, whether Zionism is to remain a modern nationalist movement like those that created the USA, Italy, Germany and modern France, or lapse into a Jewish version of Islamism. That question is being tried right now in the Israeli Knesset, in the vote on Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan, and it will be tried in its implementation. The problem is not to determine whether the policy is correct or not, but whether the policy of our government and the actions of our army will be based on pragmatic considerations, however mistaken, or whether they will be dictated by the word of God as interpreted by rabbis and religious fanatics.

Ami Isseroff

[ Permission given to me by the author to post this here ]

[goliath]

Ami Isseroff , is not discovering America , all that column ful with obvious logical analyse , ...
On 1947 and before learders , father's fondator were quite all with religious influence or conviction , and this remain today ...,
The reminiscence of religion and principle applyed from the beginning , will last till the gov. in charge , needs those voice to stay on the spot....
The main problem , it's how religious can maintain the perenity of Judaism and keep their political influence....as usual....
Concerning the outside Jew , we see the disintegration of the original "ideal" concerning the creation of Israel..( Th.Herzl and the following )
The frustrated are without a doubt ....Religious people and Judaism...
If I recall marriage in Israel must be religious ...this (if is stil the case ) talk by itself.......
What does Ami Isseroff , propose as a solution ?...nothing...
Democracy...kill democracy...Times give a solution to everything....often an unexpected one...

[Ophra]

What does Ami Isseroff , propose as a solution ?...nothing...

On the contrary.... he, like many of us , propose an end to the Settlement movement and stricter laws for those who incite racial and religious hatred.

Thus :

Stop the Momentum of Settlement
Vol. 4 #9. August 20, 2002

"17,000 new settlers this year," crows the Yesha (Judea, Samaria and Gaza) Council advertisement, "Yesha is in a momentum of settlement." Israel Broadcasting Authority allowed this ad, previously banned, but nixed a counter-ad by Peace Now as "political." Settlements are being pushed into the Israeli public consensus.

The Intifada dealt Israeli peace advocates a shattering blow. We cannot offer the hope of peace in return for withdrawal in the near future, because we cannot control the Palestinians and the PNA. "Peace" has become a dirty word. The government has a blank check to perpetuate the occupation and expand the settlement enterprise under the guise of security measures.

However, the case against settlements remains the same. Israel cannot rule three million or more Palestinians against their will. The Palestinians will not go away. Israel must not remain at war with most of its neighbors forever. Israel cannot develop good relations with Jordan and Egypt without settling the Palestinian issue. Planting more civilians in the middle of Gaza or "Judea" and "Samaria," (the West Bank) is a provocation. Stretching precious defense resources to guard them could not possibly enhance security. Yet we all acquiesce in this policy. We all pay for it, and hardly anyone complains.

Settlements create facts on the political and social ground as well as the physical ground. Settlements perpetuate a lobby that supports them and blocks peace attempts. The Yesha council uses our tax money to organize demonstrations against peace, and to pay for ads legitimizing the occupation and making it sound attractive. The settlers' lobby has grown at the expense of the Israeli public, destroying the old Zionist consensus. Settlers are eating away at Israel from within, pointing us away from constructive endeavor and toward messianic adventurism. Israel was not built by mystic zealots in strange green costumes like the settlers of Izhar or lunatics who plot to blow up Palestinian schoolchildren. Zionism did not envision that such would be the reborn Jewish people.

Hundreds of thousands of people now have vested interests in keeping the occupied territories. The occupation is a major branch of the economy. Settlers, contractors, speculators, politicians and foreign investors have staked their fortunes on them. There cannot be peace if the settler lobby continues to grow and to shape both the Israeli government and national priorities. Assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin tried to change direction, but he failed.

Settlements and settlers were marginalized during the heyday of the peace process. Now they are elbowing their way back into the national consensus. The Yesha council advertisement is one sign among many. The settler movement used to use the Hebrew word "hitna'hlut," for settlements beyond the green line. It denotes the na'hala or apportionment granted by God to each tribe of Israel in the Land of Canaan. Settlers were mitna'hlim, Jews coming into their God-given birthright. The word came to be associated with zealots like the assassin of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Recently, hitna'hlut and mitina'hel have been replaced by hityashvut and toshav, neutral and acceptable words, but a mitna'hel is a mitna'hel by any other name.

Stopping the momentum of settlement is a national Zionist priority, not just a peace issue. Settlements may kill the heart of Zionism itself. A growing minority, 220,000 settlers in West Bank and Gaza, is dictating the program of the majority. Settler mentality will soon be embedded in the Israeli or Zionist consensus if we don't call for a settlement freeze.

Settlements are the spearhead of the Israeli right, but they are also the exposed and vulnerable "forward salient," because they cost lives and are expensive. In the Jerusalem Report, August 26, 2002, Gershom Gorenberg writes, "The fundamental assumption of economic policy, in the midst of the War for the Territories, is that the economy exists to serve the settlements. If we don’t starve single moms in Tel Aviv to pay teachers more in Beit El, we’ll be surrendering to terrorism." Everyone living within the green line must understand the cost of this policy.

Budget outlays for settlements are difficult to trace, but even the visible expenditures are considerable. According to Peace Now, in 2001 Israel spent $300 million on new and existing settlers in the West Bank and Gaza, excluding the Jerusalem area. This year, the figure was undoubtedly higher. 17,000 settlers in half a year will mean about 30,000 settlers this year. They will require about 7,500 housing units, costing perhaps $70 million, plus schools, electricity, and roads. The new settlers will get about $8 million a year in tax breaks and $30 million in differential subsidies to municipalities, this year and every year. Maintaining the existing settler population costs about $250 million. These figures don't include subsidized water or special fences, security measures such as armored buses and soldiers to guard the settlements. A reservist told of 23 soldiers guarding 19 settlers, and it is not an isolated case. At a conservative estimate, settlers have cost Israel over $10 billion since 1967. All this money and much more may be completely wasted. We may have to abandon the settlements, return the settlers and offer them compensation, as we did in Sinai. Each new settler adds to the waste, and makes peace more unattainable.

"17,000 new settlers this year" spells certain doom for peace and for a healthy Israeli society. Settlement construction is hardly ever mentioned however. At the Labor party convention, the leading candidates argued over what sort of security fence is best and who thought of it first. The peace groups talk mostly about "war crimes," house demolitions in Jerusalem and draft refusal. These issues alienate mass support for peace by attacking sacred cows of Israeli society. Peace groups spread their resources thin on many questionable projects. They reach for unattainable goals such as bringing all settlers home. Few are focusing on stopping the settlement bulldozer.

Halting settlement expansion will make the settlers a movement without a future. Supporters will leave like passengers abandoning a sinking ship. National priorities and values will change. The matter is urgent. Elections approach. The peace movement has no program that can attract mass support. Israelis will not accept that unilateral withdrawal, running under fire, is a wise policy. But we can convince the public that expanding settlements is a waste of money and lives and a strategic liability, because it is. We must put this issue on the public agenda now. This may be the last opportunity we will have to save Israel from itself.

Freezing settlement construction is a reasonable and attainable goal. If we all speak with one voice, if we all focus on this one issue, it can happen. An end to the momentum of settlement and a new beginning for Israel is within reach, but nobody has reached for it yet!

Ami Isseroff
Rehovot,
Israel

[goliath]

Settlements, seems to be the angular's stone and the direct or indirect cause of Israel troubles...with our neighbourhood , I have a slight doubt concerning the affection and consideration they feel for us...
If Ami Isseroff can trust also the "old guard " who wants our destruction ,if I was dwelling in Israel I should be your political enemy...(just political).
To give a finger to a mortal enemy , is displaying a great deal of optimism.....
Anecdote .. When they were drawing the border line ,concering the limit of territories , the breadth of the layout was covering about 3 miles on the map...nobody said a remark concerning this important point...
Carelessness ...? Stupidity...?

[Mediocrates]

Archives: Israeli judge suggests OK for Leftists to block roads & beat cops

************************************************** ******************



Tel Aviv Magistrates' Court Judge Muki Landman harshly criticized the

prosecution Monday regarding its decision to press charges against 11

left-wing activists who held an anti-security fence demonstration in

February opposite the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv.



The activists were charged with unruliness and of preventing a police

officer from carrying out his job by violently resisting attempts by

the police to evacuate them from the road they were blocking.



"The state needs to know when to hold back," Landman told the state

prosecutor, adding that the youths who sat on the road opposite the

Defense Ministry and refused to be evacuated were involved in an

"active protest" and that their actions should not necessarily draw criminal charges.



"The states should not run and file an indictment in cases of

protest," he said. "If I am sitting on the road and they come to

evacuate me and I fight back, I am not sure that filing an indictment

is the right thing to do."



Landman added that in his view decisions regarding charges against

demonstrators need to be made at the highest level. He added that the

indictments against the demonstrators are out of the ordinary and

that the state did well not to press charge against activists who

resisted the evacuation of the Sinai in the early 1980s.



"In my opinion a decision needs to be made by the attorney-general,"

he said. "Especially considering that we are in the midst of a period

filled with protests from both sides of the political spectrum."



Despite the criticism, the prosecution repeatedly claimed that the

activists had assaulted police officers who had tried to break up

their protest.

[sharonbn]

So?
two wrongs don't make a right.
If left wing protertors did assault policemen, they should have been arrested and prosecuted and punished.
I believe that blocking roads is a legitimate protest and no one should be prosecuted for this, unless they act violently when approached by police forces.

The judge made reference to the Yamit evacuation, where policemen and soldiers were assaulted but no charges were made.

[Ophra]

Mediocrates,

You never cease to amaze me , I can't make sense of you at all . Puzzles me how an American Democrat can so strongly defend our radical right. Now this post ...
Medio the Law is the Law is the Law .... I don't care who breaks it ... be they Left, Right or Moderates from Mars .

Can you imagine for a moment what life is like for our security forces and soldiers ..... it's not enough they have to cope with attacks on our borders and terrorists coming out of the woodwork where ever their security is lax ... they have domestic extremists driving them crazy on a daily basis .

Don't think for one moment that the Law does not apply to everyone equally . Here is a good example from today's news :

Hebron: 32 leftists arrested

Left-wing activists come to neighborhood of Tel Rumeida to express solidarity with Palestinians, say settlers threw objects at them
By Ali Waked and Efrat Weiss

HEBRON - Thirty-two activists were arrested Saturday afternoon by police and soldiers and are now being interrogated by Hebron district police.

The left-wingers demonstrators from several organizations came to show support for Palestinian residents of Tel Rumeida, whom they said were suffering from harassment by settlers.

According to the Palestinians, neighboring settlers damage their cars and try to take over their homes.

When the marchers got to Tel Rumeida, soldiers told them that they could not enter the area. When the activists ignored the army and walked in anyway, settlers pelted them with rocks, bottles and eggs.

Warned by the army

One activist, Anat, told Ynetnews that the soldiers warned her not to enter the settlers’ compound.

“They said it would be taken as a provocation, and we insisted anyway, they called us Nazis, and said that we deserved what the settlers would dole out,” said Anat.

Lawyer Yael Barda said, “Some of those arrested were handed over to the Hebron police while others went to the Gush Etzion district. Still others, were arrested by the army, which if of course, very illegal.”

Barda said that the demonstrators came to visit Palestinian families after they had complained that the settlers cleared a passage for themselves, while blocking Palestinian access.

The police said, “The demonstrators were arrested on suspicion of violating a military order by going into Area A and by disturbing the peace.”

(05.21.05, 19:55)

Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3088411,00.html

[NewsGuy]

My claim regardng PM Rabin's assassination is that at that time, no one in the shabac and other agencies regard voices from the extreme right with enough seriousness. Moreover, no one in the right wing thought that there should be a limit to protest expressions. No one thought that Rabbis issueing Din Rodef or pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms would lead to an assasination. This is what I refer to when I say that many in the extreme and not-so-extreme right should feel some responsibility for the murder of Rabin. Their rethoric and incitement drove Amir to act. He would not have acted had he known there is no public legitimacy to this act.

It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

You yourself admit that the problem was in the Shabac procedures. They failed to protect the PM properly.

As for Amir, he knew full well that there was basically no public backing for assassination. Waving banners that accused Rabin of being a traitor and a Nazi are not equivalent to calling for his murder. He acted basically alone, as the extensive investigation revealed.

But the issue is really a simple legal one, not a political issue. Criticism of the PM is limited by free speech laws. If the language is considered to be incitement, the Shabac immediately steps in and the next step is early minyan at Maasiyahu.

And, actually, these days, when we see the political witch-hunt against Noam Federman and other legitimate political activists, we can see that the Shabac is not only strictly enforcing the incitement laws, but the Shabac is actually carrying out the political agenda of the Left and discriminating against the Right.

For example, I was reading about the case of one activist who was routinely stopped while crossing the street and dragged into a Shabac car at machine-gun point, just to harass him and tell him not to associate with Federman. No charges filed. Just harassment and intimidation.

I think that these days, the Shabac has gone too far in persecuting the Right. Remember, free speech is not only something that the Left is entitled to.

And, the Left’s demonization of the settlers that is intended to lead to ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish families, should also be investigated by the Shabac, IMO.

[sharonbn]

You yourself admit that the problem was in the Shabac procedures. They failed to protect the PM properly.
The problem was indeed in shabac procedure. That does not mean they are to blame for the murder. This is like saying the secret service is responsible for Kennedy's murder because they failed to protect him.

As for Amir, he knew full well that there was basically no public backing for assassination. Waving banners that accused Rabin of being a traitor and a Nazi are not equivalent to calling for his murder. He acted basically alone, as the extensive investigation revealed.
Waving banners and pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms set the tone and the background. However, the Rabbis issue of Din Rodef is what I believe gave Amir the legitimacy he was seeking.

But the issue is really a simple legal one, not a political issue. Criticism of the PM is limited by free speech laws. If the language is considered to be incitement, the Shabac immediately steps in and the next step is early minyan at Maasiyahu.
No. The issue is not a legal one. Just because something is legal does not make it right or productive. I claim that besides the issue of the limits of the right of free speech, which is controversial, there is the issue of what moral boundaries an individual puts to his/her political expressions. Even if the pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms are legal, IMO, they are immoral and destructive. They do not serve to convey any political or other message. They serve only to express blind unrational hate and incite for violence by de-humanizing the subject. I would never ever use these kind of expressions against another Jew. That is my belief and it is not rooted in some legal paper but comes from my concience.

And, actually, these days, when we see the political witch-hunt against Noam Federman and other legitimate political activists, we can see that the Shabac is not only strictly enforcing the incitement laws, but the Shabac is actually carrying out the political agenda of the Left and discriminating against the Right.
See the news item from Ophra. Leftist protestors are not immune from police action and arrests.

[Ophra]

You yourself admit that the problem was in the Shabac procedures. They failed to protect the PM properly.

As for Amir, he knew full well that there was basically no public backing for assassination. Waving banners that accused Rabin of being a traitor and a Nazi are not equivalent to calling for his murder. He acted basically alone, as the extensive investigation revealed.

But the issue is really a simple legal one, not a political issue. Criticism of the PM is limited by free speech laws. If the language is considered to be incitement, the Shabac immediately steps in and the next step is early minyan at Maasiyahu.

And, actually, these days, when we see the political witch-hunt against Noam Federman and other legitimate political activists, we can see that the Shabac is not only strictly enforcing the incitement laws, but the Shabac is actually carrying out the political agenda of the Left and discriminating against the Right.

For example, I was reading about the case of one activist who was routinely stopped while crossing the street and dragged into a Shabac car at machine-gun point, just to harass him and tell him not to associate with Federman. No charges filed. Just harassment and intimidation.

I think that these days, the Shabac has gone too far in persecuting the Right. Remember, free speech is not only something that the Left is entitled to.

And, the Left’s demonization of the settlers that is intended to lead to ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish families, should also be investigated by the Shabac, IMO.

sharonbn answered most of the points I was going to make ... so I will reduce my reply to the following :......

but the Shabac is actually carrying out the political agenda of the Left and discriminating against the Right.

That is not true Newsguy ..... the Shabak acts according to instructions directly from the PM . Arik is NOT a Leftist... the Likud party is NOT left-wing .

I think that these days, the Shabac has gone too far in persecuting the Right. Remember, free speech is not only something that the Left is entitled to.

And, the Left’s demonization of the settlers that is intended to lead to ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish families, should also be investigated by the Shabac, IMO.

I don't understand the language you are using :confused: Please explain.
Once again our Gov is a coalition ... it is NOT Left-wing !!
What " ethnic cleansing " ...?????.... they are being moved into Israel proper .

Honestly I truly do not get all this " Left " stuff .

[KettleWhistle]

The problem was indeed in shabac procedure. That does not mean they are to blame for the murder. This is like saying the secret service is responsible for Kennedy's murder because they failed to protect him.[/quote
Except that Kennedy's assasination wasn't used to actively infringe on people's freedom of speach and wasn't blamed on EVERYBODY who criticisezed him sharply.


[QUOTE] Waving banners and pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms set the tone and the background. However, the Rabbis issue of Din Rodef is what I believe gave Amir the legitimacy he was seeking.
And that's absolutely irrelevant.

No. The issue is not a legal one. Just because something is legal does not make it right or productive. I claim that besides the issue of the limits of the right of free speech, which is controversial, there is the issue of what moral boundaries an individual puts to his/her political expressions.
So that justifies political and government harassement of individuals and organizations that aren't PC at the moment?

[sharonbn]

Except that Kennedy's assasination wasn't used to actively infringe on people's freedom of speach and wasn't blamed on EVERYBODY who criticisezed him sharply.
There is no infringement of freedom of speech. Calling for civil rebelion does not come under freedom of speech, it comes under threat of state security. issue of Din Rodef does not come under freedom of speech, it comes under incitement for murder. showing pictures of Israeli PM in Nazi umiforms does come under freedom of speech. it also comes under what I have called it: "blind irrational hate and incite for violence" - but no one was ever arrested for this.

No infringement. No blaming of EVERYBODY. This is not sharp criticism. This is de-humanizing and is outside accepted political expression. Shabac did not react fiercely enough the first time. They want to make sure they do not make the same mistake. I, for one, do not bkame them. If there is some harrassement of extreme lunatic fanato-fantasio-trigger-happy-right - they brought it upon themselves and have no tight to complain. They gave us Amir, they earned the right to be harrassed until they are no longer an active threat.

No infringement. No blaming of EVERYBODY. Swift, just, assertive action to ensure the life of citizen no. 1 and the security of Israeli society.

And that's absolutely irrelevant.
It is 100% relevant to the point I am making - Yigal Amir is the not some lone luny who landed from outer space. He is a product of the hate incitement, of the agreesive violent protests, of the spiritual leaders carelessness, of the de-humanization of elected Israeli PM. He is a product of the right wing. Therefore, they bear responsibility for his actions.

So that justifies political and government harassement of individuals and organizations that aren't PC at the moment?
Already answered that. No one was arrested/harrassed for showing provocative pictures or calling for the downfall of the gov't etc. If people are arrested its because they pose real, immediate and imminent danger to lives and/or state security. They are rightfully arrested and should be stopped using all legal means.

Its time shabac did its job and protect life and security.

[Mediocrates]

Mediocrates,

You never cease to amaze me ,

Why is that? Government oppression has no special affinity for the left or the right.


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. --And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[NewsGuy]

The problem was indeed in shabac procedure. That does not mean they are to blame for the murder. This is like saying the secret service is responsible for Kennedy's murder because they failed to protect him.
The criminal responsibility for the murder lies with the murderer himself, although agencies that are charged with the murdered PM's protection are partially responsible for his death.

On the other hand, I wonder why you attribute any responsibility whatsoever to the Right. You said that both the extreme Right and the mainstream Right are both responsible for the murder. That is simply not true.

Waving banners and pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms set the tone and the background. However, the Rabbis issue of Din Rodef is what I believe gave Amir the legitimacy he was seeking.
No, the banners do not set the tone for murder. They are a legitimate expression of criticizing the PM for political policies that the opposition has the right to protest. (The Nazi comments in particular should be legislated against, IMO, but if not, they are legal if also despicable).

The "din rodef" (i.e., a Rabbinical decree to harm someone who is specifically considered to be persecuting Jews) falls into a simple category of speech that is either legal or illegal, based on whether a particular incident is considered to be incitement. We know that Mazuz will not hesitate to prosecute if warranted, so what's your complaint?

I claim that besides the issue of the limits of the right of free speech, which is controversial, there is the issue of what moral boundaries an individual puts to his/her political expressions.
As you know, the Left is the champion of explaining that Morality is something that is subjective. For example, you may think that ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza is moral, while others consider it to be immoral. Same with cutting taxes when there is poverty, etc. Purely subjective, but not illegal.

I would never ever use these kind of expressions against another Jew.
Neither would I, and it should be made illegal. That way, would be no subjectivity required.

[NewsGuy]

That is not true Newsguy ..... the Shabak acts according to instructions directly from the PM . Arik is NOT a Leftist... the Likud party is NOT left-wing .

That's a good point. The "new" Arik took on the Left into a coalition and is carrying out Leftist policies. Actually, much more leftist than anything Rabin would have done.

Is the new Arik a Leftist, then? I'm not sure any more...

I don't understand the language you are using :confused: Please explain.
Once again our Gov is a coalition ... it is NOT Left-wing !!
What " ethnic cleansing " ...?????.... they are being moved into Israel proper .
Yes, it's an ethnic cleansing where a Jewish population -- some living there for 3 generations -- are being ethnically cleansed from their land.

This is the land that the "Palestinians" and all other Arab countries rejected when assigned to them by the UN and from where they have launched thousands of terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, anti-tank fire, rockets, and mortar shells into the heart of the the Jewish population.

The people that are about to be ethnically cleansed, for no other reason than being Jewish, moved there on government instructions, with government housing subsidies, and if this is not ethnic cleansing then they should be given a choice to stay there and live under Palestinian rule, just like more than a million Arabs who are occupying Israel.

I can imagine your outrage if Israel would transfer out the Arab population of the Arab settlements of Haifa, Yaffo, etc. So why are you not outraged about the ethnic cleansing of Jews (even if you consider all of Gaza to be Arab land)?

In fact, this is the exact policy of Rabbi Meir Kahane, who has been dubbed a terrorist and a racist for wanting to transfer out the Arabs enemies back to their rightful homelands. Yet when this is being applied to Jews, you support this racist policy, no?

[Ophra]

Why is that? Government oppression has no special affinity for the left or the right.


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. --And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.



Aha !!! ...... so it's "Government oppression" is it ?????

Tyranny !!!!!!! ..... Arik the Tyrant :D

"" He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. ""

Well he does kind of smile when he gets called " King of Israel " ;)

The Settlers have the same one vote that we all have Medio.
The same " right of Representation in the Legislature " that we all do Medio .... so where is the Tyranny ????

Edit: BTW ... they are welcome to rise up against this "Tyranny" should they so wish.... I for one would love to see them try .
... or ... like I said to you before .. they could do what the poor oppressed Europeans did under the King's Tyranny... they could all run off to America and get a life just like yours . :cool:

[Ophra]

"" Government oppression "" .... really :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Read this !!!!

The power to detain

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel protested against the administrative detention of a settler from Yitzhar, who is suspected of planning attacks against Arabs with the goal of thwarting the disengagement. The association's position is consistent: It opposes administrative detentions of both leftists and rightists. The question is whether this position is correct.

There is nothing more natural than to oppose a curtailment of personal liberty that is not in accordance with ordinary legal procedures. But is such a step always unacceptable? It is possible to learn from others' experience: We invented neither the wheel nor liberal democracy. The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that administrative detention is legitimate when confronted with terrorism (and not only during times of war), on condition that the detainee has the right to a court appeal. England's highest court recently issued a similar ruling (though it forbade the government to discriminate between citizens and noncitizens in this matter).

In our case, can anybody argue that there is not a serious danger of acts of terror being committed by extremists who oppose the disengagement? Are these absurd fears, mere excuses whose goal is to suppress a legitimate public struggle? Precisely such arguments were raised on the eve of Yitzhak Rabin's assassination - by none other than Ariel Sharon, who today is under redoubled guard.

It is, of course, possible to relate to the principles of liberal democracy the way the strictest ultra-Orthodox Jews relate to halakha (Jewish law), and thereby to feel righteous, holy and pure. It is possible to say that even the approval of the European Court of Human Rights is not "glatt (strictly) kosher." But might it not be better, in light of the clear danger to us all, to enable the state to use any legitimate means - however problematic and undesirable - to prevent disasters and protect human life?

Administrative detention is far from being purely administrative: Within 48 hours, the detainee must be brought before the president of a district court, whose approval of the detention can then be appealed to the Supreme Court. At one time, courts were generally reluctant to rule against the security services, but no longer: In recent years, they have done so time after time, on a variety of issues. Thus there is no reason to think that the judges will not be able to appropriately defend the rights of right-wing extremists.

The liberals' fundamentally suspicious attitude toward the state is justified. Experience shows that all countries, even liberal ones, sometimes do evil. But experience also shows that those who fight against the state are liable to be far crueler, and far less restrained, than it is.

The message to the security services, and to the jurists who oversee them, must be as follows: It is clearly forbidden to use emergency powers to silence legitimate criticism, or to punish loudmouths and disturbers of the peace (such as the idiots who decided, after having despaired of settling in people's hearts, to settle in the faces of Israeli drivers). But when there is a real danger to human life, do not hesitate to do your duty. As I once learned during Peace Now demonstrations, "When someone's light has been extinguished / and he has been buried in the earth, / bitter weeping will not rouse him, / it will not bring him back. / None of us will return / from the black pit. / There, the joy of victory is of no avail, / nor are hymns of praise."

And nor are hymns of praise to democracy, in its ultra-Orthodox interpretation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/579027.html

Humbug !! I say to you Mediocrates :p

[goliath]

Words sometimes are only a pious vow...
All the "modern" countries whom their nice kind people believe on a mirifical constitution and laws by the book ,are kind of naive dreamers...
In the mean times ,they allow to the other side leader ,(realistic ) to prepare another future,concerning the same country....
It's only a derivative's political game , and analyzing , lost in future conjecture, allow to this people to hope ,exult and rejoice ,in thinking all your desire will be granted.
Israel is a little country , love of democracy , is dragging his people on eulogistic analysis , and reading you ,I just get the feeling ,that Israel lose all the former war against an environment who rejectecd this new country.
When I read about those policy and law autopsy , it's seems that our Jewish state is yet a post-mortem one ,and the only way left ,is to get a whatever agreement with our enemy ( inside and outside our borders ), was it necessary to struggle for an ideal , who seems to be lost , and no hope appear on those useless pseudo battle....Israel is not Sweden or denmark , and never will be , Israel is surrounded by hostile people , and even with potential enemy intra muros....Settlers it's only a delicate and serious problem which can be solved with good will ,not with battle...
The future of the people can't be resolved only with smiling to our mortal enemy ,who seems to became your living best friend....Srange attitude ,but the fact are not on writing or if they act by this mean ,is not 100% effective...Thanks God..!!
The US is the only country who believe on democracy , constitution's power and law by the book...Those democratic weapon are only use by politicians with their interpretation when it's convenient ....Israel is not the US....

[Ophra]

Okay Newsguy... now your post .....I was sooooo mad when I saw Medio's that I had to go kick the cat for a couple of hours :)

That's a good point. The "new" Arik is took on the Left into a coalition and is carrying out Leftist policies. Actually, much more leftists than anything Rabin would have done.

Is the new Arik a Leftist, then? I'm not sure any more...


No. Arik is no Leftist . Arik is a realist ..... but first and foremost Arik is a patriot . He loves this country as much as I do only there is a slight difference ... he says he is a Jew before he is an Israeli, Rabin said he was an Israeli before he was a Jew. I say to hell with being Jewish... I am an Israeli full stop !!!

Let's not beat about the bush ... all this talk about left and right and "Leftists" is a load of old bull ... what we have today is the secular majority being bullied left, right and centre by the religious minority .

The religious settlers (not to be confused with the secular settlers) are there because they believe that they are following God's orders .... they are the ones that call it The Land of Israel and believe, and act, that they are God's chosen. They are the radicals..they are the extremists ... they are the ones who would bring us and the rest of the world to the brink of war over barren hilltops and piece of real estate that they call Holy and that just happens to have two bloody great Mosques on top of it.

and if this is not ethnic cleansing then they should be given a choice to stay there and live under Palestinian rule, just like more than a million Arabs who are occupying Israel.

Ho hum .. didn't I just say Arik was a realist .... just how long do you think they would live under Palestinian rule ??? Without our Army going back in to save them... I would say probably a week at the most.
The million Israeli Arabs, who choose to live here and who hold Israeli citizenship are under our protection .... we are not Palestinians ;)

you support this racist policy, no?

No. I support stronger Laws against racism and religious intolerance .

[goliath]

[QUOTE]No. Arik is no Leftist . Arik is a realist ..... but first and foremost Arik is a patriot . He loves this country as much as I do only there is a slight difference ... he says he is a Jew before he is an Israeli, Rabin said he was an Israeli before he was a Jew. I say to hell with being Jewish... I am an Israeli full stop !!!
It seems you're more pro Arab full stop..!!!
And who nows you could be an Arab....
In your writing you're not even A SECULAR Jewish...

Let's not beat about the bush ... all this talk about left and right and "Leftists" is a load of old bull ... what we have today is the secular majority being bullied left, right and centre by the religious minority
If you says so , ....

The religious settlers (not to be confused with the secular settlers) are there because they believe that they are following God's orders .... they are the ones that call it The Land of Israel and believe, and act, that they are God's chosen. They are the radicals..they are the extremists ... they are the ones who would bring us and the rest of the world to the brink of war over barren hilltops and piece of real estate that they call Holy and that just happens to have two bloody great Mosques on top of it.
No absolutely NO ,they are there because they love Israel ,and they wants to live in peace ,without be killed by the Arabs , as it occure from the beginning......


Ho hum .. didn't I just say Arik was a realist .... just how long do you think they would live under Palestinian rule ??? Without our Army going back in to save them... I would say probably a week at the most.
The million Israeli Arabs, who choose to live here and who hold Israeli citizenship are under our protection .... we are not Palestinians ;)
Wo is that WE ? ,you? you could be a Palestinian advocating ,just like that....why not?

No. I support stronger Laws against racism and religious intolerance .
These are only words......or a sweet song ....sound like an Arab melopee......
Please don't read my post ,it's only for Jewish people ,as the formal one , intox doesn't works .......thanks a million........TWOC..
And this thread should be on Domestic Politics...rubric....no?

[sharonbn]

The criminal responsibility for the murder lies with the murderer himself, although agencies that are charged with the murdered PM's protection are partially responsible for his death.
First of all, criminal responsibility for the murder does not lie with the murderer alone, see the case of Margalit Har Shefi. She was accused of knowing about the incoming murder and did nothing to prevent it. She refuted knowledge about Amir's plans, but bnot the responsibility.

Second, this whole attitude of I didn't pull the trigger so I have zero responsibility is incorrect, IMO. In Israel we call this the Shin Gimel syndrome. It describes the tendency to put the entire blame on the lowest ranking accomplice, usually the guy who is sent to the forefront, all the while ignoring the responsibility of those who drove him there, thoe with the brains that usually do not dirty their hands in actual deed.

Once more, Amir did not land rfom outer space and he is mentally sane. He is a product of a large community who abbused their free speech right into incitement and de-humanizition of a political rival.

On the other hand, I wonder why you attribute any responsibility whatsoever to the Right. You said that both the extreme Right and the mainstream Right are both responsible for the murder. That is simply not true.
see above.
I did not attribute responsibility for the murder of Rabin to the extreme left. IO said that they, like the extreme right, abused free speech right and other democratic features in a way that caused individuals to perform ilegal actions.

No, the banners do not set the tone for murder. They are a legitimate expression of criticizing the PM for political policies that the opposition has the right to protest. (The Nazi comments in particular should be legislated against, IMO, but if not, they are legal if also despicable).
So "Nazi comments" are illegal in your opinion. that's progress. and that is why we have attorney general, chief of police, state prosecution and high court. these bodies have the authority to interpret the implicit meaning of the law, even if the legislator did not explicitly specify some thing.

The AG in specific is expected to (and does) exercize judgement in mane cases that lay before him.

The "din rodef" (i.e., a Rabbinical decree to harm someone who is specifically considered to be persecuting Jews) falls into a simple category of speech that is either legal or illegal, based on whether a particular incident is considered to be incitement. We know that Mazuz will not hesitate to prosecute if warranted, so what's your complaint?
Din Rodef is illegal since it incitement for murder. I believe the Rabbis were not touched because of fear from the AG (and it wasn't Mazuz, btw, it was Rubinstein) and police to stear rebelion among their followers, people who are not famous for their admiration and acceptence of state laws.

As you know, the Left is the champion of explaining that Morality is something that is subjective. For example, you may think that ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza is moral, while others consider it to be immoral. Same with cutting taxes when there is poverty, etc. Purely subjective, but not illegal.
Morality is subjective. Again, for this reason we have bodies like AG, high court et al. They are not state clergymen. They are men who are expected to uphold the meaning of the law. That is their job description.

and calling the disengagement plan "ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza" is incorrect and misleading. When France evacuated 1 million French settlers from Morocco, no one (incl' France) called this ethnic cleansing, because the settlers were colonialists aided by military power. Same case for China in Tibet. If ever China will evacuate Tibet, it is not ethnic cleanse of Chinese settlers, it is evacuation of colonialist settlers. Same for the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. There is no law, int'l or Israel, which claim these lands are part of the Israeli state.

One last thing:
the settlers did not ask gov't permission to settle in the occupied territories in the first place, so they cannot cry why they are being evcuated now. The only thing to be sorry is that Israel had to have an intifada to make this action. It should have been done 30 years ago.

[Mediocrates]

Aha !!! ...... so it's "Government oppression" is it ?????

Tyranny !!!!!!! ..... Arik the Tyrant :D


Yes to some extent, to the extent that your goverment works more or less by personal fiat. Like the debate we have here in our Senate now; if you think you can tear up the rules because your victory isn't 100% complete then imagine what karmic payback you'll get once you overreach and you are no longer in power. (BTW I fully support our movement to erode the Senate fillibuster because I truly believe that revolutions need precipitating events)


The Settlers have the same one vote that we all have Medio.
The same " right of Representation in the Legislature " that we all do Medio .... so where is the Tyranny ????

See above - just because something is legal or useful doesn't make it right or moral. When I lived in Africa we had elections all the time. They're wonderful things to get out of work, hang out, riot, drink, whathaveyou.

they could do what the poor oppressed Europeans did under the King's Tyranny... they could all run off to America and get a life just like yours . :cool:

Hmm well I won't give you an in-depth primer on American history but the Americans were already here when the Crown decided that English law and protection no longer applied to them and the colonists could be treated like occupied subjects under Martial Law.

BTW my Jeffersonian allusions are no more than what Ho Chih Minh used as justification to fight the South Vietnamese so you should be very careful before you fling labels around.

[goliath]

[QUOTE]So "Nazi comments" are illegal in your opinion. that's progress. and that is why we have attorney general, chief of police, state prosecution and high court. these bodies have the authority to interpret the implicit meaning of the law, even if the legislator did not explicitly specify some thing.

Yes! of course the Nazi comments are illegal ,and more than that if they are in a Jewish's mouth , that can't be or very very rare .....If it's in the one of a Palestinian in jail with a computer. it could be very easely.... They do exist ,with nothing more to do all the day long .....Working on a computer.......and being Jew sometimes...or everythings they have in their mind....I could be myself a convict with free access to a computer...and the web...

Morality is subjective. Again, for this reason we have bodies like AG, high court et al. They are not state clergymen. They are men who are expected to uphold the meaning of the law. That is their job description.
In Israel Judaism is considered since yet as a religion's state ,so the clergymen are de facto siate's clergymen ....I do prefer Rabbis it's less pseudo intellectual but much more Jewish , ....
and calling the disengagement plan "ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza" is incorrect and misleading. When France evacuated 1 million French settlers from Morocco, no one (incl' France) called this ethnic cleansing, because the settlers were colonialists aided by military power.
Wrong ,France never had 1 million french settlers on Morocco , it was Algeria.... :p
And call everything ethnic cleasing is an outrage and insulting concerning Israel's state ,who was ever an example on delicate situation....

Same case for China in Tibet. If ever China will evacuate Tibet, it is not ethnic cleanse of Chinese settlers, it is evacuation of colonialist settlers. Same for the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. There is no law, int'l or Israel, which claim these lands are part of the Israeli state.

China will never withdraw from Tibet ,the dies are no more on the table....!! believe-me or not...
You said Colonialism ? All the country did the same , but that was in another century , you can't compare Israel with no colonialist or dominion , when we give 3 star ,we never take back one ......!

One last thing:
the settlers did not ask gov't permission to settle in the occupied territories in the first place, so they cannot cry why they are being evcuated now.
How nice , so they were acting alike the first American running on an order to go to west....?
Israelian Gov.was perfectely aware about the settlers....since the first day ,it was our reward for the war our neighbour provocated...and remember they never has a "success" so the only way is to act as vistims.......as they do all the time....
The only thing to be sorry is that Israel had to have an intifada to make this action. It should have been done 30 years ago.
This is pure Palestinian diatribe and propaganda, can we trust Palestinian ? they are attacking us every day....STW....
30 years ago..? who are you exactly ? Leila Shaid...?this is the exact diatribe going out from his mouth....
If you're living in Israel ,you shoud be in a deep deep cellar ,or a bunker from the last war (WW2 ) maybe in Germany ....?

[sharonbn]

Yes! of course the Nazi comments are illegal ,and more than that if they are in a Jewish's mouth , that can't be or very very rare
Pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms and holed eyes (holes instead of eyes) appeared in every right wing demonstration in 94 and 95

You said Colonialism ? All the country did the same , but that was in another century
Chinese occupation of Tibet occurred in 1953, same century as the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

How nice , so they were acting alike the first American running on an order to go to west....?
AFAIK, The American settlers were acting with permission from the British gov't. there is one similarity: The American settlers certainly did not ask permission from the natives...

Israelian Gov.was perfectely aware about the settlers....since the first day, it was our reward for the war our neighbour provocated...and remember they never has a "success" so the only way is to act as vistims.......as they do all the time....
Wrong. Israeli gov't was aware of the settlers, but did not give permission. The first settlement, in 1974, Sebastia, near Hebron was demolished 7 (seven) times by IDF before the gov't gave up and allowed settlers to stay. That is hardly "with permission", more like "extortion". and Rabin (PM at the time) should not have capitulated to these extremists. they should have been thrown to jail then.

This is pure Palestinian diatribe and propaganda, can we trust Palestinian?
Can they trust Israelis? we don't have a good record for keeping our word. and its not like we've shown them we're willing to give them their country, now did we?

they are attacking us every day....STW....
duhhh.... we're occupying their land. what do you expect them to do?

30 years ago..? who are you exactly ? Leila Shaid...?this is the exact diatribe going out from his mouth....
If you're living in Israel ,you shoud be in a deep deep cellar ,or a bunker from the last war (WW2 ) maybe in Germany ....?
38 years ago to be exact. Since Israeli unlawful occupation of Palestinian land. and I warn you to cease with the Nazi innuendo. You should know by now I take a particular dislike to this rhetoric in any discussion, and I will edit out future unrelated references and Innuendos.

[Mediocrates]

My my, how Women in Black-ish.

[Ophra]

My my, how Women in Black-ish.

Prefer that any day to Women in Green-ish :D

[Ophra]

[QUOTE=Ophra]


It seems you're more pro Arab full stop..!!!
And who nows you could be an Arab....
In your writing you're not even A SECULAR Jewish...


If you says so , ....


No absolutely NO ,they are there because they love Israel ,and they wants to live in peace ,without be killed by the Arabs , as it occure from the beginning......



Wo is that WE ? ,you? you could be a Palestinian advocating ,just like that....why not?


These are only words......or a sweet song ....sound like an Arab melopee......
Please don't read my post ,it's only for Jewish people ,as the formal one , intox doesn't works .......thanks a million........TWOC..
And this thread should be on Domestic Politics...rubric....no?

With all due respect ... when you ask who is we ... I could ask why you say "we" .... are you an Israeli sir ?? Have you ever been here ? ... because it does not sound like you have.

No I am neither a Palestinian nor an Arab :) .... should you ever come to visit you will find many who think as I do ... we are in fact the majority here.

[Mediocrates]

Prefer that any day to Women in Green-ish :D


Black is this year's Red.
Green is the new Orange.

I am colorblind but oddly - only in the Blue-Yellow ranges.

[goliath]

[QUOTE=sharonbn]Pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms and holed eyes (holes instead of eyes) appeared in every right wing demonstration in 94 and 95
The problem is human and very simple , when you have two possibilities ,you have allways people who prefer the other side....
In general we call them collaborateurs.....

Chinese occupation of Tibet occurred in 1953, same century as the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
If you're a Palestinian or a pro....be my guest , ...but during that meal ,check your dish very carefully....!

AFAIK, The American settlers were acting with permission from the British gov't. there is one similarity: The American settlers certainly did not ask permission from the natives...
See , and they began the larger democracy on this side of hell...!


Wrong. Israeli gov't was aware of the settlers, but did not give permission. The first settlement, in 1974, Sebastia, near Hebron was demolished 7 (seven) times by IDF before the gov't gave up and allowed settlers to stay. That is hardly "with permission", more like "extortion". and Rabin (PM at the time) should not have capitulated to these extremists. they should have been thrown to jail then.
Yes as you precise ,that was under Yitsak Rabin , HE gave that order to demolish this settlement....

Can they trust Israelis? we don't have a good record for keeping our word. and its not like we've shown them we're willing to give them their country, now did we?
Most of the Palestinian who nowadays are crying to be refugees , were running of Israel just because of the terror they were feeling , because on all the Arab radio ,they were shouting in continuation :
We shall cut all the Jewish's throat and drawn them on the see......So ,they were afraid on what could be done by Israeli ,and they did nothing like that.....surprise...!!!!

duhhh.... we're occupying their land. what do you expect them to do?
Those little pieces of land were only full with stone pebble ,and a real desert land.....

38 years ago to be exact. Since Israeli unlawful occupation of Palestinian land.
If they didn't did so , you would be living in Arabia....with your friends...
and I warn you to cease with the Nazi innuendo. You should know by now I take a particular dislike to this rhetoric in any discussion, and I will edit out future unrelated references and Innuendos.
You're threatening now ? how nice..! So you came on this forum in order to threat Goliath , a guy who has his fidelity card ?
You can edit everything please you , thread on a forum is simply ridiculous.....come and see me ...I'll give you my phone number and adress ,if you've not get yet those infos.....!!!! :D....

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Ophra]
With all due respect ... when you ask who is we ... I could ask why you say "we" .... are you an Israeli sir ?? Have you ever been here ? ... because it does not sound like you have.
You could check all my post you will never find a lake concerning my language or general courtesy ,this is my education...can't escape...

I'm as Israeli as you are Palestinian or whatever you or I could pretend to be ,and you now perfectly that....!!
Do you think if you ask to a person where he is from he has an obligation to tell you the truth....NO ,nobody has this obligation ,Nevertheless it's too easy for a PSEUDO to pretend I'm Israeli and come on this forum to criticize hardly Israel and pretend :
But I can do that , I'm Israeli...... it's a very very old technic .....really not a recent one ...

No I am neither a Palestinian nor an Arab :) .... should you ever come to visit you will find many who think as I do ...
You can be what you are and only that , but I can't stand criticize Israel , when nothing , NOTHING proof you are Israeli ,and to me you're talking as a person which is not.... On my humble opinion...and intuition ,but on that matter intuition worse nothing to me and to YOU.... :p

we are in fact the majority here.
To me this is very far from a proof ,so I will continue to react when I'll think people writing are overpassing the limit considering Israel.....This could be controlled by our moderator...but...
You wrote we are the majority , who are we....?
Sharon is no more the Pm ...? so the leftist pro Pal. are not de facto the majority......CQFD...

[Ophra]

Goliath,

I admit to very rarely answering your posts, to be honest I find them very difficult to understand ... I presume it is because of both of us not communicating in our own mother tongues.
However, I take umbrage at anyone thinking I am pretending to be an Israeli ... what precisely would be the point ???

but I can't stand criticize Israel , when nothing , NOTHING proof you are Israeli ,and to me you're talking as a person which is not.... On my humble opinion...and intuition ,but on that matter intuition worse nothing to me and to YOU....

Ditto... I can't stand anyone criticizing Israel either ... I say what I say from the heart .. and from my experience of living here since the day I was born. If you insist on proof for this then there is a way .... ask the Admin or a Moderator on here .. from my IP address they can tell which Kibbutz I am from. I assure you that there are no Arab members of any Kibbutz anywhere within Israel.

Sharon is no more the Pm ...? so the leftist pro Pal. are not de facto the majority

Arik Sharon is most undoubtedly the PM ... why should you think otherwise ??? The majority are the secular Israelis ... we are from all of the political parties and are not only leftists .

[NewsGuy]

Let's not beat about the bush ... all this talk about left and right and "Leftists" is a load of old bull ... what we have today is the secular majority being bullied left, right and centre by the religious minority .

The religious settlers (not to be confused with the secular settlers) are there because they believe that they are following God's orders .... they are the ones that call it The Land of Israel and believe, and act, that they are God's chosen. They are the radicals..they are the extremists ... they are the ones who would bring us and the rest of the world to the brink of war over barren hilltops and piece of real estate that they call Holy and that just happens to have two bloody great Mosques on top of it.
Fine. So you oppose the settlers because they are religious. Believing in God makes them radical and extremists. I guess that's another topic altogether.

FWIW, the settlers I personally know in Neveh Dekalim who are religious, moved there because of financial considerations, i.e., government mortgage subsidies.

Ho hum .. didn't I just say Arik was a realist .... just how long do you think they would live under Palestinian rule ??? Without our Army going back in to save them... I would say probably a week at the most.
The million Israeli Arabs, who choose to live here and who hold Israeli citizenship are under our protection .... we are not Palestinians ;)

ok, good. Now we're being clear on the reason for the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. If Israel would not ethnically cleanse the Jewish population of Gaza, then the Palestinians would commit genocide, and mass-murder more than 5,000 Israeli men, women and children. This is true. It is unfortunately the Palestinian national dream, and one shared by many Muslims worldwide.

But being that this is the reality of the Palestinians, it amazes me that this is not the centerpiece of Israeli PR efforts to explain to the world the truth about the Palestinians.

And, more importantly, I can't understand why Sharon would insist on a unilateral ethnic cleansing without demanding that an equivalent number of Arab settlements be dismantled and their inhabitants sent to Gaza as an even population exchange.

[KettleWhistle]

Pictures of Rabin in Nazi uniforms and holed eyes (holes instead of eyes) appeared in every right wing demonstration in 94 and 95
Freedom of speach. There are many parallels between Rabin's actions and those of Nazi collaborators'. You may not like it, but to illegalize comparison between individual Jews and Nazis would be a blatant infrindgement on individual rights.

[goliath]

[QUOTE=Ophra]Goliath,

I admit to very rarely answering your posts, to be honest I find them very difficult to understand ... I presume it is because of both of us not communicating in our own mother tongues.
Nobody's perfect....in my opinion your English is good ,but it's only my opinion ...if I do write with an very mysterious style ,my appreciation on yours could be wrong....
However, I take umbrage at anyone thinking I am pretending to be an Israeli ... what precisely would be the point ???
You can't forbid people to think ,Israel is a very delicate subject , and the political opinion should be expressed very carelessly ,if not that could be unbearable to people like myself...
This could be call ....preaching the false to obtain the truth...


Ditto... I can't stand anyone criticizing Israel either ... I say what I say from the heart .. and from my experience of living here since the day I was born.
Forum as as told you before ,is an anonymous little forest ,in which some people are weraring a mask....
If you insist on proof for this then there is a way .... ask the Admin or a Moderator on here .. from my IP address they can tell which Kibbutz I am from. I assure you that there are no Arab members of any Kibbutz anywhere within Israel.
Your kind proposal doesn't not be part of the rules , one of the rule is not to be advocating against Israel ,on pretending to explain a minor political problem in details....Yitsak Rabin ....is dead for a long time now , and several people are beating the same nail for months....
In every country (almost of them) you can met a left wing and a right one , and people are living together ,without struggling too much , and no criticize their country.....
And I would add this to you or let say some other Pseudo...
During my very pleasant "stay " on this forum ,I do checked the language of , alleged , or would-be......people from :
Norway, Sweden , Spain, greece, south-America , british , slovenian, Russian ,and so on ....
No one ,do you read me ? no one was able to in answering two words on his so pretend language , and a lot of them even couldn't tell a thing about their so call country....so.....
Arik Sharon is most undoubtedly the PM ... why should you think otherwise ??? The majority are the secular Israelis ... we are from all of the political parties and are not only leftists .
I don't think otherwise , but don't make me believe he is on the verge to retire in Greece....!

[NewsGuy]

First of all, criminal responsibility for the murder does not lie with the murderer alone, see the case of Margalit Har Shefi. She was accused of knowing about the incoming murder and did nothing to prevent it. She refuted knowledge about Amir's plans, but bnot the responsibility.
No, individuals who break the law and are involved with a conspiracy to commit a crime should be prosecuted of course.

But this is nothing like your trying to pin the blame for an act of murder on all your political opponents. "Creating a climate" of political criticism is not a crime and has nothing to do with committing murder. The court found that Amir acted alone. Har Shefi was a very marginal character and that's what the courts found.

Second, this whole attitude of I didn't pull the trigger so I have zero responsibility is incorrect, IMO. In Israel we call this the Shin Gimel syndrome. It describes the tendency to put the entire blame on the lowest ranking accomplice, usually the guy who is sent to the forefront, all the while ignoring the responsibility of those who drove him there, thoe with the brains that usually do not dirty their hands in actual deed.

Once more, Amir did not land rfom outer space and he is mentally sane. He is a product of a large community who abbused their free speech right into incitement and de-humanizition of a political rival.
Come one... Amir is not the "lowest ranking accomplice." He is the perpetrator.

And, true Amir did not come from outer space. He is a product of Israeli society, just like the Russian mafia, the various drug dealers and local murderers, and even the teenagers who go to a disco in Bat Yam, break a bottle and stab some kid for looking the wrong way at their girlfriend.

Din Rodef is illegal since it incitement for murder. I believe the Rabbis were not touched because of fear from the AG (and it wasn't Mazuz, btw, it was Rubinstein) and police to stear rebelion among their followers, people who are not famous for their admiration and acceptence of state laws.
The reason I mentioned Mazuz is that he now has the benefit of history and is currently dealing with those issues. I don't think that he is afraid of any Rabbis who oppose the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. And I don't think that Rubinsteain was afraid of anyone either. But please donlt ask the AG to prosecute your political opponents just because you don't like their points of view. And political criticism of public officials is not a crime. Otherwise, people like Yossi Sarid and everyone down the line of the rest of the Leftists would be in jail too.

and calling the disengagement plan "ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza" is incorrect and misleading. When France evacuated 1 million French settlers from Morocco, no one (incl' France) called this ethnic cleansing, because the settlers were colonialists aided by military power. Same case for China in Tibet. If ever China will evacuate Tibet, it is not ethnic cleanse of Chinese settlers, it is evacuation of colonialist settlers. Same for the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. There is no law, int'l or Israel, which claim these lands are part of the Israeli state.
No, the settlers are not "colonialists" at all. They do not rule over the Palestinian enemy and they have no connection to colonialism at all. These are suburban residents of the land of Israel who are now going to be forcefully removed from the land they lived on for 3 generations, solely on the basis of their religion. That is ethnic cleansing.

Perhaps you would relate to that term better of Israel would kick out the Muslim residents of the Arab settlements in Israel. Then, I'm sure, that you would be yelling about racism and ethnic cleansing, no doubt. But when it comes to removing Jews from their land, you have no problem with that, and in fact, you want to blame those residents who are about to be ethnically cleansed?

At least let's admit that this has nothing to do with "colonialism" (which is a made-up term that does not apply at all to Gaza). Instead, we should be honest and say that Israel will ethnically cleanse the Jewish population of Gaza, because if left there, the Palestinians would perpetrate a genocide that would drag the entire Mideast into a general war.

One last thing:
the settlers did not ask gov't permission to settle in the occupied territories in the first place, so they cannot cry why they are being evcuated now. The only thing to be sorry is that Israel had to have an intifada to make this action. It should have been done 30 years ago.

Wrong again. The government offered mortgage subsidies to young families, because it was believed that those residents would be the first to absorb the Palestinian terrorism and act as a barrier to protect the rest of Israel from Palestinian terror attacks. It was also hoped that the settlements would create new facts on the ground that would benefit the rest of Israel.

What's a shame is that Israel will once again give the impression that it is rewarding Muslim terrorism, like in Lebanon. This is sure to encourage more of the same.

[sharonbn]

The problem is human and very simple , when you have two possibilities ,you have allways people who prefer the other side....
In general we call them collaborateurs.....
What's that got to do with the issue? Collaborators is not synonym with Nazis or Nazi collaborators. To call rabin a collaborator is as serious as calling Benny Eilon racist.

If you're a Palestinian or a pro....be my guest , ...but during that meal ,check your dish very carefully....!
I see you're trying to degenerate the discussion into personal lines. Fine you can talk to yourself. I'm sure we;ll both be happy with this.

See , and they began the larger democracy on this side of hell...!
Yes. The great America was founded on the expense of another people. They are not the first or the last to do so. and no one applauses them for thier fine history.

Yes as you precise ,that was under Yitsak Rabin , HE gave that order to demolish this settlement....
The Israeli gov't issued the orders and created the policy.

Most of the Palestinian who nowadays are crying to be refugees , were running of Israel just because of the terror they were feeling , because on all the Arab radio ,they were shouting in continuation :
We shall cut all the Jewish's throat and drawn them on the see......So ,they were afraid on what could be done by Israeli ,and they did nothing like that.....surprise...!!!!
You're off topic. You are talking about 48 refugees, and not all of them ran away because of the radio announcements (e.g. Lod and Ramla residents are forced out of their homes. and have you heard of Dier Yassin?) but after the 48 war, the int'l border was established. the 67 war created another wave of refugees and an illegal Israeli occpation.

btw, there cannot be a refute of the LEGALITY of the Israeli occpation because the legal matter is not subjective. int'l law and even Israeli law claim the land does not belong to Israel.

Those little pieces of land were only full with stone pebble ,and a real desert land....
Again, you're describing the land maybe from the turn of the 20th cent or the 20s. the o.t. were fully inhabited by the time of the creation of the state of Israel, and certainly by 67.

If they didn't did so , you would be living in Arabia....with your friends...
WRONG again, for the n-th time. I will say it slowly - I AM TALKING ABOUT 67 NOT 48. why is it sooooooooo hard to understand ???

You're threatening now ? how nice..! So you came on this forum in order to threat Goliath , a guy who has his fidelity card ?
You can edit everything please you , thread on a forum is simply ridiculous.....come and see me ...I'll give you my phone number and adress ,if you've not get yet those infos.....!!!! :D....
fiesty one are we? nice. You write what you wish. just remember what I have said.

[sharonbn]

Freedom of speach. There are many parallels between Rabin's actions and those of Nazi collaborators'. You may not like it, but to illegalize comparison between individual Jews and Nazis would be a blatant infrindgement on individual rights.
I think these pictures border the freedom of speech right and I would expect the AG to interpret them as incitement for violence. but I do not claim they are illegal. I see no parallel between Rabin's actions and Nazi collaborators none what-so-ever. That is because I see no parallel between the Pals and the Nazis (other then both being the enemies of the Jewish people.) they do not emply the same tactics or same ideology.

Rabin negotiated with the enemy of ISrael in an attempt to make peace. He is not the first or last ISraeli leader to do so. negotiating with the enemy is not collaboration. British PM negotiated with IRS but no one says he's a collaborator.

[KettleWhistle]

I think these pictures border the freedom of speech right and I would expect the AG to interpret them as incitement for violence. but I do not claim they are illegal. I see no parallel between Rabin's actions and Nazi collaborators none what-so-ever.
That's your opinion, and it's really irrelevant to freedom of speach. Portraying Rabin as Nazi isn't an incitement to violence. It is a legitimate political opinion, and there is absolutely nothing that borders the individual rights to freedom of speach.

[Mediocrates]

fiesty one are we? nice. You write what you wish. just remember what I have said.


Remember you have no backup plan in the case where kiss and make up doesn't work. All you'll have is hope that giving away another chunk of something quiets the natives down, and so on. All I'm saying is that you have to admit that piecemeal surrender is more than a plan, it's a policy. In a perverse twist of history, it is you who's living on the Rez (reservation), not them.

[sharonbn]

No, individuals who break the law and are involved with a conspiracy to commit a crime should be prosecuted of course.

But this is nothing like your trying to pin the blame for an act of murder on all your political opponents. "Creating a climate" of political criticism is not a crime and has nothing to do with committing murder. The court found that Amir acted alone. Har Shefi was a very marginal character and that's what the courts found.
I do not claim that the entire right wing should be put on trial. I claim that THEY should feel some kind of shared responsibility for the murder and try to make sure it never happens again. I mentioned this before, evidence show that political violence, terror attacks and political murders consistently come from the right wing. I think this should light up a little red blinking light in the minds of the right wing.

You can say the left wing has a shared responsibility from the actions of the likes of Udi Adiv and you may be right. I certainly believe he has committed a grave criminal action and should be put in jail for a long time. I have no idea how or why he came up with his plans and maybe the left did not do enough to stop such persons.

Come one... Amir is not the "lowest ranking accomplice." He is the perpetrator.
Amir is the classic Shin Gimel. In my eyes He's a patsy.

And, true Amir did not come from outer space. He is a product of Israeli society, just like the Russian mafia, the various drug dealers and local murderers, and even the teenagers who go to a disco in Bat Yam, break a bottle and stab some kid for looking the wrong way at their girlfriend.
teen violence is a product of our flawed education system. Amir action was politically motivated. He is a product of a group of people with political agenda - the far right.

The reason I mentioned Mazuz is that he now has the benefit of history and is currently dealing with those issues. I don't think that he is afraid of any Rabbis who oppose the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. And I don't think that Rubinsteain was afraid of anyone either. But please donlt ask the AG to prosecute your political opponents just because you don't like their points of view. And political criticism of public officials is not a crime.
I ask the AG to make sure there is no second assasination of PM in Israel. I ask him to seriously regard life threats that are issued against Sharon for the same reason that he "has the benefit of history". Funny no one thinks there is any threat what-so-ever for a political assasination from the left wing...

Otherwise, people like Yossi Sarid and everyone down the line of the rest of the Leftists would be in jail too.
Yossi Sarid did not incite for murder, not do his followers wish to do so or even issue life threats or call for civil rebellion (as one right wing KM publicly does) there is no threat from Sarid or followers.

No, the settlers are not "colonialists" at all. They do not rule over the Palestinian enemy and they have no connection to colonialism at all. These are suburban residents of the land of Israel who are now going to be forcefully removed from the land they lived on for 3 generations, solely on the basis of their religion. That is ethnic cleansing.
No one calls the settlements suburbs. not even the settlers themselves so why invent semantics?? Israel rules over the occupied territories, territories that according to int'l and Israeli law do not belong to ISrael, by military power. the Israeli settlers falls right into the label of colonialists.

Perhaps you would relate to that term better of Israel would kick out the Muslim residents of the Arab settlements in Israel. Then, I'm sure, that you would be yelling about racism and ethnic cleansing, no doubt. But when it comes to removing Jews from their land, you have no problem with that, and in fact, you want to blame those residents who are about to be ethnically cleansed?
the Israeli Arabs are not colonialists. How can they be? they never ruled the land and were not sent to settle among foreign people and against anyone's will.

At least let's admit that this has nothing to do with "colonialism" (which is a made-up term that does not apply at all to Gaza). Instead, we should be honest and say that Israel will ethnically cleanse the Jewish population of Gaza, because if left there, the Palestinians would perpetrate a genocide that would drag the entire Mideast into a general war.
the Israeli colonies should be removed from Gaza because it is not part of Israel and the Palestinians do not welcome them. Its like asking the Tibetans if they welcome the Chinese settlers and then calling then racists because they say they don't want any Chinese in their land.

Wrong again. The government offered mortgage subsidies to young families, because it was believed that those residents would be the first to absorb the Palestinian terrorism and act as a barrier to protect the rest of Israel from Palestinian terror attacks. It was also hoped that the settlements would create new facts on the ground that would benefit the rest of Israel.
I was talking about the first settlement, Sebastia.
and if Israel wished for the settlers to be barrier to protect the rest of Israel from Palestinian terror attacks then we all know this plan has utterly failed and I would say this is utter cinicism to play with people's lives in this way. civilians should never play any part in the security system, let alone as human shields.

What's a shame is that Israel will once again give the impression that it is rewarding Muslim terrorism, like in Lebanon. This is sure to encourage more of the same.
You're absolutely right. I believe that the ISraeli withdrawl from Lebanon drove the Pals to start the intifada and I don't know what wil happen after the disengagement, but I can certainly see the Pals saying it was their "struggle" (i.e. terror atacks) that "gave" them Gaza. Israel should never have started the settlements in Gaza. Now, once again as happenned before, Israel is cornered into the worst case because of its short sight and lack of courage to do the right thing. I think there is really no other option but to do the disengagenment because providing security for the settlements, and indeed for entire Israel is becoming more and more impossible. we need defensible borders

[Ophra]

Fine. So you oppose the settlers because they are religious. Believing in God makes them radical and extremists. I guess that's another topic altogether.

No Newsguy.... I do not oppose the settlers because they are religious . I don't know what makes them radical and extremists.... but they are.

ok, good. Now we're being clear on the reason for the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. If Israel would not ethnically cleanse the Jewish population of Gaza, then the Palestinians would commit genocide, and mass-murder more than 5,000 Israeli men, women and children. This is true. It is unfortunately the Palestinian national dream, and one shared by many Muslims worldwide.


No Newsguy..... if Israel does not move the Gaza settlers back into Israel proper... then my sons, and the sons of all the mothers like me, must defend them and protect them and die for them.... and sorry but we are just not ready to do that anymore.
Also..most Israelis across the political spectrum accept that the presence of 8,000 Jews among one million hostile Palestinians does not serve Israel's interests.

[Mediocrates]

Fine, then what? You've marginalized them all the same. Bring them back, to what, exactly? That's the problem.

[goliath]

[QUOTE=sharonbn]What's that got to do with the issue? Collaborators is not synonym with Nazis or Nazi collaborators. To call rabin a collaborator is as serious as calling Benny Eilon racist.
You don't get my point at all , I'm not insinuating or telling Ytzak Rabin was a collaborateur , I 'm just telling :
In Israel you have people who are definitely pro-Pal...
And other are not sharing this point of vue.....
I was absolutely not refering to Yitzak Rabin ,this man had a lot of courage ,and none can denie that.....

I see you're trying to degenerate the discussion into personal lines. Fine you can talk to yourself. I'm sure we;ll both be happy with this.
I do think ,since yet "our " exchange were very very few ,I'm just
desired to say , when undercover you are demolishing Israel ,you could apply the same conceal you are giving to me ...
If you don't feel well in Israel .....you could live it , and we'll both be happy with this....so ? is that your education ? too bad for you...

Yes. The great America was founded on the expense of another people. They are not the first or the last to do so. and no one applauses them for thier fine history.
I really feel compassion for those people who were massacred ...yes it was not the only one ,Turkish did a lot to...

The Israeli gov't issued the orders and created the policy.
Yes ,yes , in Israel they are in all 5 million people , and the actual people is acting as if they were 500 million of inhabitants....

You're off topic. You are talking about 48 refugees, and not all of them ran away because of the radio announcements (e.g. Lod and Ramla residents are forced out of their homes. and have you heard of Dier Yassin?) but after the 48 war, the int'l border was established. the 67 war created another wave of refugees and an illegal Israeli occpation.
War result is always the occasion to the winner , in deciding to occupy or take position on the high to be more protected ...and so on ,you now that ,so I really think Israel was very Gentleman on his attitude , and when you're using the word ILLEGAL ...illegal on what....? on war the defeated , must past trough the caudine forks of the winner , and it's the occasion to change on some unilateral agreement....military position, territory , oil , water , everythings is possible ,and is not illegal as you said.

btw, there cannot be a refute of the LEGALITY of the Israeli occpation because the legal matter is not subjective. int'l law and even Israeli law claim the land does not belong to Israel.
Does the Palestinian respect the law by the manuel...? are you kidding me ? there is no law on war , ...you can argue with that all you wants , but you should ask to the people who have a children killed by the technic you now , and Jews Israeli or not ,will never ,but never ,send the children to throw stones to IDF , it's the most COWARD attitude I have never seen , children doesn't count much on that side , I do hope parents of the volunteers doesn't receive anymore money in payment for that kind of criminal acts.....!!!

Again, you're describing the land maybe from the turn of the 20th cent or the 20s. the o.t. were fully inhabited by the time of the creation of the state of Israel, and certainly by 67.
I describe the land I have seen ,even if the records don't say so , I was there , and also my dead family are not on the list of Yad Vachem , why ? just because I never did the necessary in order to give the name of all those people , after my stay there ,my conclusion on that point was done.

WRONG again, for the n-th time. I will say it slowly - I AM TALKING ABOUT 67 NOT 48. why is it sooooooooo hard to understand ???
I now , to me it's impossible to dicotomisize ( pure neologism) the Israel' History , all the event are in relation ,you can't cut a bit only when you're pleased....

fiesty one are we? nice. You write what you wish. just remember what I have said.
I have forgot what you've said , you now when two advice are on deuce , both person can be right .....too easy...

[minusthejihad]

most Israelis across the political spectrum accept that...
You've made a nasty habit of generalizing and stating "facts" with no proof. Since you seem to have no problem pasting lengthy articles, maybe you can post some source to backup your claim.

[KettleWhistle]

if Israel does not move the Gaza settlers back into Israel proper... then my sons, and the sons of all the mothers like me, must defend them and protect them and die for them....

Being in the army is a dangerous business. If you can't handle it, then get your brood out. The IDF and Israel will be better for it.

[sharonbn]

You don't get my point at all , I'm not insinuating or telling Ytzak Rabin was a collaborateur , I 'm just telling :
In Israel you have people who are definitely pro-Pal...
And other are not sharing this point of vue.....
I was absolutely not refering to Yitzak Rabin ,this man had a lot of courage ,and none can denie that.....
OK so some Israelis are pro pal. I guess you could find a few Americans who are pro OBL and a few Chiense who are pro Tibet - what's your point?

I do think ,since yet "our " exchange were very very few ,I'm just desired to say , when undercover you are demolishing Israel ,you could apply the same conceal you are giving to me ...
I have absolutely sero idea what this means. try again in lame terms.

If you don't feel well in Israel .....you could live it , and we'll both be happy with this....so ? is that your education ? too bad for you...
I feel very good in Israel and don't wish to leave it, thank you for the concern to my welfare. I wish to see Israel prosper and live in peace with its neighbors. My Education is also fine and nothing is bad for me. rest your weary head.

I really feel compassion for those people who were massacred ...yes it was not the only one ,Turkish did a lot to...
Fine. if you take the story of the White settlers in America and the native Indians and apply it to the ME - who is who?

Yes ,yes , in Israel they are in all 5 million people , and the actual people is acting as if they were 500 million of inhabitants......
English pleaaaaaase

War result is always the occasion to the winner , in deciding to occupy or take position on the high to be more protected ...and so on ,you now that ,so I really think Israel was very Gentleman on his attitude , and when you're using the word ILLEGAL ...illegal on what....? on war the defeated , must past trough the caudine forks of the winner , and it's the occasion to change on some unilateral agreement....military position, territory , oil , water , everythings is possible ,and is not illegal as you said.
If war "is always the occasion to the winner" whatever that means, then why do Jews claim any ownership to land of Israel??? Jews lost the land to the Assyrians and Babylonians some 2,000 years ago. by your own philosophy, the Jews lost the land - they lost the land.

you see - Jews claim NATIVITY to the land of Israel. They claim its their national home land, same as Tibet is the national home land of its people and it does not matter if it is occupied by a foriegner power. its called Nationalism. Jewish Nationalism is called Zionism. There is also Palestinian Nationalism and it claims ownership to the occupied territories by nativity - same root cause that the Jews claim to the land, and it does not matter if a foreign power occupies it.
The days when Might set the right were over sometimes in the 18th cent. thank god for that.

Does the Palestinian respect the law by the manuel...? are you kidding me ? there is no law on war , ...you can argue with that all you wants , but you should ask to the people who have a children killed by the technic you now , and Jews Israeli or not ,will never ,but never ,send the children to throw stones to IDF , it's the most COWARD attitude I have never seen , children doesn't count much on that side , I do hope parents of the volunteers doesn't receive anymore money in payment for that kind of criminal acts.....!!!
Palestinian respect to int'l law bears no relevence to Israeli obligation. If someone beats you up nd you go and beat their little brother - well surprise surprise - you will be arrested.


I describe the land I have seen ,even if the records don't say so , I was there , and also my dead family are not on the list of Yad Vachem , why ? just because I never did the necessary in order to give the name of all those people , after my stay there ,my conclusion on that point was done.
My conclusion is that I don't understand what are you talking about. Yad Vashem??? what's that gotta do with ANYTHING we're talking about??? is this some kind of gift you have to drift from subject to subject with no connection?
It is extremely frustrating experience to follow your words and posts. It makes me punch the keyboard in anger and dispair!!!

Please re-read your own words and explain to me what's the connection between the first sentence where you talk about the description of the occpied territories and second sentence, where you say some unclear stuff about your family in Yad Vashem. what?????????

I think I need to do another level in half life 2 to cool down.

[Ophra]

You've made a nasty habit of generalizing and stating "facts" with no proof. Since you seem to have no problem pasting lengthy articles, maybe you can post some source to backup your claim.


Well goodness gracious :eek: ..... make up your mind !!!!!.

First you complain because I post lengthy articles that state my case.... now you complain when I don't . :confused:

Okay doaky .... me go lookie for something just for you .... once I've posted whatever I've posted as a "" source to backup your claim. "" will you promise to stop nipping at my heels like a terrier puppy ??? ..... unless of course you have something to add to the discussion at hand except personal attacks . ;)

[Ophra]

You've made a nasty habit of generalizing and stating "facts" with no proof. Since you seem to have no problem pasting lengthy articles, maybe you can post some source to backup your claim.

K... from today's Jerusalem Post .... a centre right publication.... ;)

You have to register to read the opinions ... so please do... I don't want you trusting what I say ... now do we :D

To Israel's supporters

Passionately pro-Israel Americans – Jewish and Christian – opposed to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plans for unilateral disengagement from Gaza and parts of northern Samaria can finally tell the premier what they think of him, to his face.

Sharon arrived in New York on Sunday and is spending Monday and Tuesday in the Big Apple and Washington seeking to bolster support for disengagement inside the pro-Israel community.
On Sunday in Manhattan, he addressed a large gathering of communal leaders. The highlight of his visit is a scheduled speech to 5,000 delegates in Washington Tuesday morning at the closing session of AIPAC's 2005 Policy Conference. Then he plans to meet with evangelical leaders.

Most US Jewish groups support disengagement. Twenty-five organizations – including the Union for Reform Judaism, the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, ADL and Hadassah – proclaimed their adherence in a full-page ad in Sunday's New York Times. And most American Jews, 65 percent, support disengagement.

But some of Israel's most ardent stalwarts, on the Jewish Right and among Christian Evangelicals, feel alienated by disengagement and confused about where Sharon is taking Israel.

Spearheaded by the Zionist Organization of America, Americans for a Safe Israel and certain Orthodox leaders, the Jewish Right promised to rally against "Sharon's deportation plan." Disengagement, say its American opponents, is a continuation of Oslo, the result of delusional thinking by Israelis under siege.

That is where the US Jewish Right is most mistaken.

Disengagement is not Oslo redux. The plan, though abysmally articulated by Sharon, doesn't promise a New Middle East, or even an end to hostilities.
Indeed, disengagement is a reaction to post-Oslo realities.

The American Jewish Right no longer campaigns against the administration's "talking to the PLO"; after the US initiated a dialogue with the PLO in 1988, reality changed. It does not campaign against Israeli leaders meeting with Palestinian leaders; after the establishment of a Palestinian Authority in Ramallah 12 years ago, reality changed. It does not campaign against the security fence; with 1,000 Israelis killed since October 2000, reality changed.

Most Israelis across the political spectrum accept that the presence of 8,000 Jews among one million hostile Palestinians does not serve Israel's interests. :D Moreover, far from seeing disengagement as a defeat of the settlement enterprise, many see it as the best chance to save as much of it as possible, thereby expanding Israel's eventual permanent borders beyond the pre-1967 lines without threatening the nation's democratic character.

All this explains why a poll in Friday's anti-disengagement Makor Rishon newspaper said that 60% of Israelis support the premier's Gaza plan, while only 37% do not. A Friday Maariv poll showed that were elections held today, Sharon's Likud would again dominate the Knesset while the parties most opposed to disengagement would capture a mere 15 Knesset seats.

Our advice to the American Jewish Right and its Christian allies is: Accept the changed realities. Rather than opposing disengagement, strengthen the government's hand in securing Ma'aleh Adumim, Gush Etzion and the other "consensus" settlements.

And while your anger is focused on Ariel Sharon, Thursday's planned visit to Washington by Mahmoud Abbas may have escaped your notice. On May 15, "Nakba Day," Abbas reiterated the old, maximalist PLO demand for a Palestinian "right of return." While pro-Israel energies are being dissipated in an effort to block disengagement, that old mantra for the destruction of Israel by flooding it with millions of "refugees" is being peddled right under your noses.

Continued
1 | 2 | Next »

Source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1116814788101

[goliath]

QUOTE=sharonbn]OK so some Israelis are pro pal. I guess you could find a few Americans who are pro OBL and a few Chiense who are pro Tibet - what's your point?
My point is simple , I will get back on school , high-school , and when I finish with sciences-po college ,I will be back and start a new discussion with your gran gran children , but probably in Arabic language....

I have absolutely sero idea what this means. try again in lame terms.
OK DK...my style is very selective , somebody can't understand my esoteric writing......But I have to tell you ,I have absolutely NO problem when I'm writing to my US friends ,what could be the mystery about that ?
We say this : It doesn't exist more stupid person ,as the one who doesn't wants to understand.....
I feel very good in Israel and don't wish to leave it, thank you for the concern to my welfare. I wish to see Israel prosper and live in peace with its neighbors. My Education is also fine and nothing is bad for me. rest your weary head.
I don't now where you're dwelling ,it could be where ever you wants....on earth limit...or maybe farer....who nows...? nobody but you..right?

Fine. if you take the story of the White settlers in America and the native Indians and apply it to the ME - who is who?
The attitude versus Indians ( call Indians by error) was a very classic one on that times ,it's a long story, and nothing about Israel...
The Palestine ,doesn't existed , all the people were nomadic little group ,and they were travelling all the times.....
Even Leila Shaid....Queen of liar...was born in Egypt....and she keeps saying : I'm a Pal...So did Yassir ...


English pleaaaaaase
Brainnnnnnn pleasaaaaaaase.......


If war "is always the occasion to the winner" whatever that means, then why do Jews claim any ownership to land of Israel??? Jews lost the land to the Assyrians and Babylonians some 2,000 years ago. by your own philosophy, the Jews lost the land - they lost the land.
It's not necessary to return to the Babylonian or Egyptian or Adam and Eva ....or right to the creator...or before ..the origin could be 4.5 billion years ,long long story and technic (astro-physic ) this could last for years...on this forum ..
Do return only at the origin of the decision concerning Israel after WW2....and please re-read it , the first day the Jews arrived on their land ( attributed and accepted by intern.vote on the UN..
Arabs began to kill them...and cutting the throat of people by night on the Kibbutz....brave as usual....

you see - Jews claim NATIVITY to the land of Israel. They claim its their national home land, same as Tibet is the national home land of its people and it does not matter if it is occupied by a foriegner power. its called Nationalism. Jewish Nationalism is called Zionism.
It depend in whom is using the term ....
The meaning of Zionism is not to invade the neighbourhood , but it's less to let them lill us as lamb.....It has been done in Europe....

to the occupied territories by nativity - same root cause that the Jews claim to the land, and it does not matter if a foreign power occupies it.
The days when Might set the right were over sometimes in the 18th cent. thank god for that.
Please do return on the first agreement , this land was chose on many cryteria , and our' friend Lord Balfour , was involved on that ,remember, and it's the British who called this land Palestine ,and before them the Turkish.....The nomade were depending on nothing , only tribal rules , the law of the stronger...as usual...(not too esoteric..?)

Palestinian respect to int'l law bears no relevence to Israeli obligation. If someone beats you up nd you go and beat their little brother - well surprise surprise - you will be arrested.
Thanks ,it's easy to guess on what side you stand for....pro Pal...or maybe more....
It's a strange thing ,on that forum I don't "meet" a Jew....all the things sound as we were on another club , ....as French are doing since years and years....
My conclusion is that I don't understand what are you talking about. Yad Vashem??? what's that gotta do with ANYTHING we're talking about??? is this some kind of gift you have to drift from subject to subject with no connection?
It is extremely frustrating experience to follow your words and posts. It makes me punch the keyboard in anger and dispair!!!
Of cooooooarssse ....it's evident...I'm writing in English and thinking in Hebrew ...this is the reason why ...see ? the explanation is very simple...!

Please re-read your own words and explain to me what's the connection between the first sentence where you talk about the description of the occpied territories and second sentence, where you say some unclear stuff about your family in Yad Vashem. what?????????

Not necessary , the ONE to whom the bell are ringing ...can hear the music....If he or (she) don't play the deaf...
I think I need to do another level in half life 2 to cool down.[/QUOTE
Very kind of you, ....

[sharonbn]

My point is simple , I will get back on school , high-school , and when I finish with sciences-po college ,I will be back and start a new discussion with your gran gran children , but probably in Arabic language....

I'll wait till then to continue this discussion.

[Ophra]

I'll wait till then to continue this discussion.

Wise man ;)

[Ophra]

Being in the army is a dangerous business. If you can't handle it, then get your brood out. The IDF and Israel will be better for it.


.... and you know this because ????? .... on your own admission KW you stated you were locked up in a prison and this is why you did not do your Army service..... so excuse me whilst I ROFLMAO .

We can handle it KW .... we handled it just fine up till now without your help.

"My brood" serve at the command of the Government of The State of Israel.... the Government of The State of Israel listens to it's people ... when the Government of The State of Israel tells "my brood" that it is time to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank "my brood" will do so..... with great big grins on the faces of each and every one of them .

[goliath]

[QUOTE=sharonbn]I'll wait till then to continue this discussion.
Are you pushing me away....all of you ? no way....

It's so nice to have two sister on the same forum...

I do remember the Ophra first post...
Ophra....what a good memory ...compliment , when "K.W." was writing about his "stay" in jail ....that was a loooooong time ago...
don't miss next "quizzical " TV game...you could win...with hands down..... :D

[goliath]

Shin bet it's fearing the Jewish terror.......

I had a call this morning , Tel-Avivi is fearing the Palestinian terror....For the Jews it's only a matter of habit....

How can an honest person could imagine in telling to the settlers , you have to go to hell....because to extirpe peole who were living with their family on this spot ....who can imagine this could be realised without an incident.....Nobody....!!

Such a tittle for a thread ....demonstrate by himself if necessary ,the negative intention ....

It's very surprising that Newsguy accepted a tittle who rang like an insult ...and also participate on this....
IMHO.....of course....

I do really hope it will not be other occasion to name Israeli : monster who are displaying terror....

We do have as every people some excited person...but they are in Jail ....
If we place in jail all the potential terrorist Pal.....it will remaind a very few people to kill the Jews.....not on war....by night ...cutting the throats......acting bravely...as usual ...

[KettleWhistle]

.... and you know this because ????? .... on your own admission KW you stated you were locked up in a prison and this is why you did not do your Army service..... so excuse me whilst I ROFLMAO .

I was a political prisoner. BTW, have you filed your report with Shabak yet? I checked with my friends at the local Israeli consulate, and they haven't heard anything about it.

We can handle it KW .... we handled it just fine up till now without your help. ROFLMTO
Whom do you think you are kidding?

when the Government of The State of Israel tells "my brood" that it is time to withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank "my brood" will do so..... with great big grins on the faces of each and every one of them . I'm sure their grins will be as wide as when they won the Special Olympics

[Mediocrates]

Now, now.

[goliath]

FEAR...delt.byGoliath.

[gandolf2005]

Shin bet it's fearing the Jewish terror Groups

Freedom fighters

[goliath]

[QUOTE=gandolf2005]Freedom fighters

Dear....?

Palestinian freedom fighters.....doesn't exist and never existed...!

We have to call the things with the right word.......

Abbas/ Abbu-Mazzen is a cold blood killer....
So was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin...who is burning in Hell for ever..!

Idem for Mahmoud al-Zahar...
Dito Abd al Aziz al-Ramtisi....and all the Hamas and Co.....

EU decided to classify Hamas on the official list of Terror Organizations...

The right definition for the Hamas is

CRIMEN CONTRA OMNES......Crimes against All...

HOSTES HUMANI GENERIS... Common enemies of the Mankind...

Any further associaton of murderers with Freedom will undermine the very structure of civilized international relation.

[Overload]

deleted

[Overload]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

Yes, the entire extreme right got together, they had this meeting, These Learned Elders of Zion got together and drew up some protocols. All of them came together and decided to kill the prime minister.

Good job there stereotyping. :rolleyes:

[goliath]

FIDO...delt.by Goliath.

[Leon]

"Shin Bet fears Jewish terror"

Hello? Anyone awake or even home? wake up time:

http://www.pmw.org.il/

[gandolf2005]

[QUOTE]

Dear....?

Palestinian freedom fighters.....doesn't exist and never existed...!

We have to call the things with the right word.......

Abbas/ Abbu-Mazzen is a cold blood killer....
So was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin...who is burning in Hell for ever..!

Idem for Mahmoud al-Zahar...
Dito Abd al Aziz al-Ramtisi....and all the Hamas and Co.....

EU decided to classify Hamas on the official list of Terror Organizations...

The right definition for the Hamas is

CRIMEN CONTRA OMNES......Crimes against All...

HOSTES HUMANI GENERIS... Common enemies of the Mankind...

Any further associaton of murderers with Freedom will undermine the very structure of civilized international relation.

I was refering to Jewish freedom Fighters

[Mediocrates]

This is more or less the goal of the PLO thank you very much. And all the Oprah's of the world miss it by a country mile. Create a great deal of friction internally in the Palestinians, create a divide. Trump up the crisis so that now you have to delay the elections you so badly wanted. You know Sharon has already said that he would move the Relocation to the East from 07/17 to 08/15 for religious reasons that had more to do with a wait and see attitude about the PLO elections. Now that they're pushed off Sharon is faced with two unpleasant options:


1 don't slide the date of the expulsion and come away with less than zero in exchange from the PLO

2 don't slide the date and be confronted with even more Orange resistance, knowing that point #1 is true

3 slide the date out and face the hatred and obropium of the flat-worlders

4 slide the date out and give the Orange resistance even more time to build up against the government

5 slide the date and give the government more time to round up more Orange Jews to arrest

See either way, it's destabilizing to Israel. The goal for Abbas is to precipitate civil unrest in Israel. He's not interested in a Gaza withdrawl, he's interested in weaking Israel. It's really quite shrewd because no one really cares about civil unrest amongst the Palestinians so Abbas can afford to let it get a lot worse for the ordinary people there.

[goliath]

FBO.....delt.by.Goliath..

[goliath]

FAB....delet.by Goliath.

[NewsGuy]

No Newsguy.... I do not oppose the settlers because they are religious . I don't know what makes them radical and extremists.... but they are.
Really? Other than a group of maybe 10 or 20 of them who would like to see the Arab terrorists and supporters gone, what about the other 99.99999% of the settlers, who want nothing but to raise their families in peace in the Jewish homeland? Why do you consider them to be radical, just because they hold different points of view than you do?

No Newsguy..... if Israel does not move the Gaza settlers back into Israel proper... then my sons, and the sons of all the mothers like me, must defend them and protect them and die for them.... and sorry but we are just not ready to do that anymore.
Your sons are not there to protect and die for them any more than their sons are there to protect and die for you.

But in any event, how does bringing terrorists closer to your doorstep protect your sons, especially after the Muslim terrorists have vowed to keep on mass-murdering families just like yours, despite handing the Jewish part of Gaza to the Palestinians?

The Muslim terrorists certainly targeted Jews living all over Israel, before there were any "settlements" in Gaza, and now that they have missile factories and well-financed and well-armed terror organizations, why should the situation get any better?

Also..most Israelis across the political spectrum accept that the presence of 8,000 Jews among one million hostile Palestinians does not serve Israel's interests.
That is only true since Israelis realized that the Israeli government is not willing to take the necessary steps to stop the Kassam missiles. If the government did whatever is necessary to stop the Kassam missiles from being fired at Jewish population centers, public opinion would change, IMO.

And I would be interested to see what public opinion would say about whether they believe that rewarding Palestinian terrorism, like in Lebanon, is a good idea. And I wonder if most Israelis think that allowing a Hamas state to be established contributes to Israel's safety.

You see, public opinion can be manipulated based on what answer the pollsters want to get.

[NewsGuy]

I do not claim that the entire right wing should be put on trial. I claim that THEY should feel some kind of shared responsibility for the murder and try to make sure it never happens again. I mentioned this before, evidence show that political violence, terror attacks and political murders consistently come from the right wing. I think this should light up a little red blinking light in the minds of the right wing.
Come on, the "right wing" does not advocate assassinating public officials. It's like saying that the left wing is responsible for the bombing at the Dolphinarium, because they foster an atmosphere of handing over parts of the Jewish homeland to the Palestinians. Doesn't really make sense.

teen violence is a product of our flawed education system. Amir action was politically motivated. He is a product of a group of people with political agenda - the far right.
Unlike the Left, which has no political agenda whatsoever? Neither is responsible for the crimes of their constituents.

Yossi Sarid did not incite for murder, not do his followers wish to do so or even issue life threats or call for civil rebellion (as one right wing KM publicly does) there is no threat from Sarid or followers.
Yes, the Left advocated against serving in the Gaza, Judea and Samraria, and the Left put pressure on foreign countries and donors to stop giving Israel various funding, and stop buying Israeli goods. This is all very much of a threat to Israelis, especially at a time when the Arabs were carrying out their Jihadifada.

the Israeli Arabs are not colonialists. How can they be? they never ruled the land and were not sent to settle among foreign people and against anyone's will.
The Arabs living in Israel are squatters who are brutally occupying critical parts of the Jewish homeland. Many are involved in the mass-murder of hundreds (if not thousands) of Israelis and most view themselves as Palestinians, not Israelis.

Nonetheless, I think that those Arabs are entitled to live in peace and dignity in their own homelands, and the removal of Israelis from Gaza is a perfect opportunity for an even exchange of Arab settlers living in Israel.

I was talking about the first settlement, Sebastia.
and if Israel wished for the settlers to be barrier to protect the rest of Israel from Palestinian terror attacks then we all know this plan has utterly failed and I would say this is utter cinicism to play with people's lives in this way. civilians should never play any part in the security system, let alone as human shields.
Well, this was the purpose: To act as a barrier to terrorism and to establish facts on the ground.

Building the fence around Gaza has been extremely effective at stopping suicide bombers, as was exterminating the terrorist leaders one by one.

But Israel did not finish the job of seizing more and more land from the Palestinians for every terror attack or dropping massive bombs on the crowd of Hamas operatives that attended each of their leaders' funerals, and marched in the streets of Gaza brandishing their guns and Kassam rockets publicly. That was the mistake that kept Palestinian terrorism alive. Had Israel taken measures more similar to those taken by the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, things would have been completely different.

Even today, Israel repeats this mistake by allowing Nasrallah in Lebanon to aim 15,000 missiles at Northern Israel and then to brag about it in mass terrorism gatherings, not to mention allowing him to run radio and television stations.

I think there is really no other option but to do the disengagenment because providing security for the settlements, and indeed for entire Israel is becoming more and more impossible. we need defensible borders.
Right. Defensible borders are essential, but so is the power of deterrence.
I agree that, unfortunately, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza is going to happen and probably will not be stopped.

But the alternative is not to do so unilaterally. Rather, let's get back to a comprehensive plan, like the Road Map for peace, except that the Palestinians will need to be held accountable if they fail to eradicate their terrorism. And performance by each side needs to be reciprocal, not independent of each other's compliance.

Otherwise, the Lebanonization of Gaza will be the beginning of the establishment of Hamas-stan right on Israel's borders.

[Gilgamesh]

Fine. if you take the story of the White settlers in America and the native Indians and apply it to the ME - who is who? We Jews are the indians and the Arabs are the conquestadors.

If war "is always the occasion to the winner" whatever that means, then why do Jews claim any ownership to land of Israel??? Jews lost the land to the Assyrians and Babylonians some 2,000 years ago. by your own philosophy, the Jews lost the land - they lost the land. On the same token, the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans also lost the land. We have returned each time to rebuild it. Like it or not, the Arabs will go on the same trip like the Romans, Greeks and Persians like any former illegal conqueror of our land. Each time we Jews return to rebuild our land.

... There is also Palestinian Nationalism and it claims ownership to the occupied territories by nativity - same root cause that the Jews claim to the land, and it does not matter if a foreign power occupies it. Arab Naionalists demand the entire land of Israel, not just the WB and Gaza as many far left extremists like you would like to delud themselves.
Arab NATIVITY demand is false, because no two nations can demand NATIVITY on the very same region. It is also false from practicle reason, they are not NATIVE to the land of Israel, but immigrants from all over the Arab world.

There are other aspects of Arab nationalism, called PAN ARABISM, an idea most vivid today the Islamist ideology of OBL and his Jihadi pals, as well as in NATZERIST secular ideology. They all would like to build an ARAB empire which includes all the Arab speaking countries as well as Iberian peninsula and island of Sicely. As you can see in the map, Israel is a tiny fish bone deep in their throat. I wish them to choke on it in agony.

The days when Might set the right were over sometimes in the 18th cent. thank god for that. REALLY? The how the Nazis got beaten? How the land of Israel got established? How Jerusalem got liberated? Or you don't consider these as "RIGHT", are you?

Palestinian respect to int'l law bears no relevence to Israeli obligation. Partly agree. int'l community is not a democratic community and the law is not enforced or followed equally. In a nut shell, Int'l law is different from common law you may be better familiar with in a democratic society, is different in it's practicle meaning. Int'l law practicly becomes guid lines or agreements about do's and don'ts in different situations. As any agreement, it holds BOTH sides equally.

As long as the Nazis didn't use poison gas on the front line against the Soviets or on British population centers, the Brits and Soviets avoided using poison gas against the Germans. But the moment the Nazis begun bombing civilian population centers all over Europe, the Nazis legitimated the bombing of their own cities by the allies and Soviets.

In international community, one cannot break the agreements and accept the opponent of honor the broken agreements.

[Gilgamesh]

I do not claim that the entire right wing should be put on trial. I claim that THEY should feel some kind of shared responsibility for the murder and try to make sure it never happens again. Your demand is much too broad, and for purpose, so the leftist elements in the goverment could persecute anybody who disagree with thier line. Such a generalizations fracture our democracy.

I mentioned this before, evidence show that political violence, terror attacks and political murders consistently come from the right wing. Wrong! You simply ignore so much violance caused by the left, both in Israeli history (such as Altalena) and in world history (Soviet era).

I think this should light up a little red blinking light in the minds of the right wing. As a right winger, I have many blinking red lights and so many shriking alarms, most concern the abuse and demage the left causes our democracy and our future as a Jewish state.

You can say the left wing has a shared responsibility from the actions of the likes of Udi Adiv and you may be right. I certainly believe he has committed a grave criminal action and should be put in jail for a long time. I have no idea how or why he came up with his plans and maybe the left did not do enough to stop such persons. The left ignores or forgive the actions of some many traitors and colleborators just because they come form the left. I fear the emergance of Israeli version of "Red brigades".

Talking so high against the left, Sharonbn, what did you do against the "Anrarchists", the closest thing to the Red Brigades in Israel.

Amir is the classic Shin Gimel. In my eyes He's a patsy. So was Rabin in the Oslo sham. The real criminals still at large scot free.

teen violence is a product of our flawed education system.Our eduction system was always flawed. The varaible is bad parenting and lack of values ideals and role models for our youth.

Amir action was politically motivated. He is a product of a group of people with political agenda - the far right. Which was created by the Shin Beith. You keep ignoring the role of Avishai Raviv, as the leader of that "organization".

Sharonbn, your attmepts to describe a right wing conspiracy are patheticly idiotic, at best.

Yossi Sarid did not incite for murder, not do his followers wish to do so or even issue life threats or call for civil rebellion (as one right wing KM publicly does) there is no threat from Sarid or followers. You are SO wrong. I've seen Sarid in several conventions on campus. I know better. Sarid simply has better conections so he can walk out of anything.

No one calls the settlements suburbs. I do. Giloh for example, is considered as east jerusalem settlement, or the biggest settlement in Israel, by most Arab supporters.
Ma'aleh Adumim are next after. Let's discuss those places, if you will.

Israel rules over the occupied territories, territories that according to int'l and Israeli law do not belong to ISrael, Int'l law is not Torah from Sinai. Only the Torah from Sinai is the Torah from Sinai.
Men's law can change because they are limited and not perfect. Justice can not be defined by laws but with ideas. Judaism is such an idea.

The Israeli settlers falls right into the label of colonialists. Onlu you label the settlers as colonialists, not me and not the Arabs. The Arabs lable YOU as a colonialist, worse then the settlers.

All settlements are built on either emepty land or procured land from Arabs. Most far left lefties, btw, leave on the rubbles of abonoded Arab villiages. In other words, the far left in Israel, is out of touch with anything. Sharonbn gives us the best demonstration for that.

the Israeli colonies should be removed from Gaza because it is not part of Israel and the Palestinians do not welcome them. Once holding this logic, there is no reason for the existance of the state of Israel, since we too are surrounded by hositle Arab majority on all flanks.

and if Israel wished for the settlers to be barrier to protect the rest of Israel from Palestinian terror attacks then we all know this plan has utterly failed and I would say this is utter cinicism to play with people's lives in this way. Wrong, It was a success. It diverted much of the enemy efforts from population centers, and it prevented the enemies lines from getting closer to our cities, simply by holding on the land.

The failur you describe, is the result of the left bashing and coroding the solidarity within Israel. The leftists will not fight for others, while expacting others to risk thier lives for thier sake. SICKENING!!!

civilians should never play any part in the security system, let alone as human shields. Has the army was alowed to do his job, no risk whould have come upon our civilians. All of Israelis are human shields de facto so to protect leftists perverted self image.

I think there is really no other option but to do the disengagenment because providing security for the settlements, and indeed for entire Israel is becoming more and more impossible. we need defensible borders If the political leadership lacks the moral courage to finish off terrorism today, where that courage be bron from, when defending Ashkelon.
Once the left has crushed the solidarity within Israel, the wisdom of defending Ashkelon will be questioned. In a decade, a withdrawl from Ashkelon will be pushed by the left, and then what?

[sharonbn]

We Jews are the indians and the Arabs are the conquestadors.
How did you come to that analogy? Arabs did not take the land from Jews. They took it from the Byzantines (f.k.a Romans)
However, Jews did take Arab land.

On the same token, the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans also lost the land. We have returned each time to rebuild it. Like it or not, the Arabs will go on the same trip like the Romans, Greeks and Persians like any former illegal conqueror of our land. Each time we Jews return to rebuild our land.
First of all, we did not return "each time" to rebuild the land. We did not return for 2,000 years ro so. Second, if you haven't noticed, my argument was a rebuttal to Goliath (who maybe is the person to answer this?)

Arab Naionalists demand the entire land of Israel, not just the WB and Gaza as many far left extremists like you would like to delud themselves.
So? same demand as Israeli "Naionalists". Neither faction is expected to achieve peace.

Arab NATIVITY demand is false, because no two nations can demand NATIVITY on the very same region. It is also false from practicle reason, they are not NATIVE to the land of Israel, but immigrants from all over the Arab world.
Nativity is a question of history, and history is open for interpratation. The historical fact is that Arabs did not take the land from the Jews. They took it from the Byzantines. They missed the little sign by the side of the road that siad "this land is reserved for the absent Jewish people." They setled the land in 7th cnt. AD and more-or-less remained there to this day (assuming the crusades didn't kill all of them.) In conclusion: Arabs didn't take the land from the Jews and have been present here for more than 1,000 years. Like I said, its open to interpratation, but I see no reason why it is "false".
and what about Arab immigrants? Have you forgotten what constitutes 95% or more of Israeli society???

There are other aspects of Arab nationalism, called PAN ARABISM, an idea most vivid today the Islamist ideology of OBL and his Jihadi pals, as well as in NATZERIST secular ideology. They all would like to build an ARAB empire which includes all the Arab speaking countries as well as Iberian peninsula and island of Sicely. As you can see in the map, Israel is a tiny fish bone deep in their throat. I wish them to choke on it in agony.
yeah yeah... and some Jews want to build the third temple. enough with the conpiracy theories.

REALLY? The how the Nazis got beaten? How the land of Israel got established? How Jerusalem got liberated? Or you don't consider these as "RIGHT", are you?
Yes really. The fact that the Nazis "got beaten" did not diminish the German people right on their land. The conquering American, British and Russian armies did not annex Germany just because they occupied it. The state of Israel was established by UN resolution 181. The ENTIRE Jewish population of 1948 did not come to the land as military conquerers, but as immigrants. Compare that to how the Jews "entered" the lands in 1967... I think there is a small but glaring difference.

As long as the Nazis didn't use poison gas on the front line against the Soviets or on British population centers, the Brits and Soviets avoided using poison gas against the Germans. But the moment the Nazis begun bombing civilian population centers all over Europe, the Nazis legitimated the bombing of their own cities by the allies and Soviets.
To that I can quote some wize man who said "If you enter the sewers, you will get dirty." It doesn't matter who started it. If you target civilians, you commit war crimes. American usage of the Atomic bomb is a war crime and it doesn't matter who started the war or who bombed what.

[Gilgamesh]

So? same demand as Israeli "Naionalists". Neither faction is expected to achieve peace. Peace with Japan made possible due to couple of Atom bombs. Peace brought to the Germans by the bombing of their cities and most discomfortable occupation of thier lands by the Soviets and Americans. Peace with Egypt followed when Sharon tanks were 101km from Cairo with practicle nothing left to stop them.

Are these examples "conspiracy theories" too, Sharonbn?
Now, Sharonbn, please show us where these examples are wrong in bringing peace, and why this primitive but working system, doesn't actualy work.

Nativity is a question of history, and history is open for interpratation. History says you were born out of your mother. But since it is open for interpertations, it is possible that your father was the one carrying you throughout prangancy. What do you think?

The historical fact is that Arabs did not take the land from the Jews. They took it from the Byzantines. Handling a stolen property is accomplicement in crime.

They missed the little sign by the side of the road that siad "this land is reserved for the absent Jewish people." Not my problem. No judge would accept such a defense, when charged with perchusing a stolen car. In other words, lausy argument of yours.

They setled the land in 7th cnt. AD and more-or-less remained there to this day (assuming the crusades didn't kill all of them.) Nope. In 18th Century, the land was mosly empty.

In conclusion: Arabs didn't take the land from the Jews and have been present here for more than 1,000 years. Not true. The Arab population you familiar with are immigrants from all over the Arab world. It enough to pay attention to some of their names or even their own personal history. Yet you can't be bothered with tiny details do you? You know better...

Like I said, its open to interpratation, but I see no reason why it is "false". If everything is open to interpertations, then this argument about the need for interpertations, is itself open to interpertations.

In my world (called: The real world) there are some absoluties. Such as facts. (the things lefties never bother to explore).

and what about Arab immigrants? Have you forgotten what constitutes 95% or more of Israeli society??? Jewish immigrants are Jews returning to thier homeland from exile, from many countries which never were a homeland for Jews. Arabs are immigrants from their homeland into a land which is not theirs, which they demand to rule.

yeah yeah... and some Jews want to build the third temple. enough with the conpiracy theories. It is pathetic how you relive your ignorance by calling any new fact offsetting your cement molded extrem left mind set.

The gap between you and Takeo is narrowing. Do you aware of that?

The fact that the Nazis "got beaten" did not diminish the German people right on their land. The conquering American, British and Russian armies did not annex Germany just because they occupied it. Again your ignorance is showing. Over 30%-50% of Germany was annexed by several countries, including France, Cheoslovakia, Poland, Ukrain and Russia, to this very day. Japan lost the island of Sachalin (to the north of Hokaido)

Beating the Germans is what brought peace to Europe. Not the conceadings that preceded the war and even hastened it's erruption.

The state of Israel was established by UN resolution 181. The ENTIRE Jewish population of 1948 did not come to the land as military conquerers, but as immigrants. Compare that to how the Jews "entered" the lands in 1967... I think there is a small but glaring difference. This difference exists in your eyes only. Not in the eyes of the rest of the world, particularly the Arabs. From a veteran of Ummah forum like you, I would expect a little more honesty.

To that I can quote some wize man who said "If you enter the sewers, you will get dirty." It doesn't matter who started it. If you target civilians, you commit war crimes. American usage of the Atomic bomb is a war crime and it doesn't matter who started the war or who bombed what. I think the differ.

[sharonbn]

Your demand is much too broad, and for purpose, so the leftist elements in the goverment could persecute anybody who disagree with thier line. Such a generalizations fracture our democracy.
More conpiracy theories.... There are no leftist elements in the gov't that want to persecute "anybody who disagree with thier line."

Wrong! You simply ignore so much violance caused by the left, both in Israeli history (such as Altalena) and in world history (Soviet era).
What pure rubbish. Altalena was a military operation, not a terror attacks. This is like me blaming the right for IDF actions in Kfar Qassem or Sabra and Shatila.
To blame the Israeli left for Soviet actions is like blaming the Israeli right for actions of Facsist regimes. pure rubbish.

The left ignores or forgive the actions of some many traitors and colleborators just because they come form the left. I fear the emergance of Israeli version of "Red brigades".
There is absolutely no indication that such a terrorsit group will be formed in Israel. Your fears are pure fantasy with zero evidence on the grounds.

So was Rabin in the Oslo sham. The real criminals still at large scot free.
So are the criminals who established the Israeli colonies in the occupied territories.

Our eduction system was always flawed. The varaible is bad parenting and lack of values ideals and role models for our youth.
I myself am a product of the past education system. There sere absolutely no knives, let alone hot weapons in our school. There were also close to zero drug use.

You are SO wrong. I've seen Sarid in several conventions on campus. I know better. Sarid simply has better conections so he can walk out of anything.
I also heard Sarrid many times and even spoke with him once. He does not and never did incite for violence simply because this is not his agenda. and even if he tried, his audioence wuld never ever follow such a call. Leftists are not violent by nature.

I do. Giloh for example, is considered as east jerusalem settlement, or the biggest settlement in Israel, by most Arab supporters.
Ma'aleh Adumim are next after. Let's discuss those places, if you will.
Fine. I am willing to admit I was too broad in my statement. These places are not settlements, but are suburbs by virtue of proximity to Jer'm. Now lets discuss the Gaza settlements.


Int'l law is not Torah from Sinai. Only the Torah from Sinai is the Torah from Sinai.
Men's law can change because they are limited and not perfect. Justice can not be defined by laws but with ideas. Judaism is such an idea.
Israel claims its legitimacy from int'l law (UN resolutionv 181). You can't pick and choose the laws you like and don't like.


Onlu you label the settlers as colonialists, not me and not the Arabs. The Arabs lable YOU as a colonialist, worse then the settlers.
I don't care who says what. I label things as I see them. Popular opinion doesn't make something right.

All settlements are built on either emepty land or procured land from Arabs. Most far left lefties, btw, leave on the rubbles of abonoded Arab villiages. In other words, the far left in Israel, is out of touch with anything. Sharonbn gives us the best demonstration for that.
You must be joking. The majority of settlements are built on confiscated Arab owned land. and without reprisal too.

Once holding this logic, there is no reason for the existance of the state of Israel, since we too are surrounded by hositle Arab majority on all flanks.
No connection. The state of Israel does not draw its legitimacy from Arab acceptence of it. It draws its legitimacy from world's accpetence of it, manifested in UN res. 181. The same organization that says Israeli ocupation from 67 is illegal, and rightly so, imo.

Wrong, It was a success. It diverted much of the enemy efforts from population centers, and it prevented the enemies lines from getting closer to our cities, simply by holding on the land.
Wrong, it was a failure. The big cities in Israel were constantly hit during the second intifada. The biggest attacks with most casualties were done inside Tel Aviv and Jer'm, not in Gush Katif or Qedumim.

The failur you describe, is the result of the left bashing and coroding the solidarity within Israel. The leftists will not fight for others, while expacting others to risk thier lives for thier sake. SICKENING!!!
Pure rubbish. All Israelis serve in the army, protecting everyone.

If the political leadership lacks the moral courage to finish off terrorism today, where that courage be bron from, when defending Ashkelon.

Once the left has crushed the solidarity within Israel, the wisdom of defending Ashkelon will be questioned. In a decade, a withdrawl from Ashkelon will be pushed by the left, and then what?
blah blah more ight wing fantasies.......

[sharonbn]

Peace with Japan made possible due to couple of Atom bombs. Peace brought to the Germans by the bombing of their cities and most discomfortable occupation of thier lands by the Soviets and Americans. Peace with Egypt followed when Sharon tanks were 101km from Cairo with practicle nothing left to stop them.
Well, surprise surprise - peace with Japan was achievable without dropping the Atom bomb. The bombing of German cities served only revenge, no tactical reason. Peace with Egypt followed after Egypt surprised Israel in 73.

History says you were born out of your mother. But since it is open for interpertations, it is possible that your father was the one carrying you throughout prangancy. What do you think?
History says I edit out personal offending attacks. What do you think?

Handling a stolen property is accomplicement in crime.
Doesn't apply. land was not stolen.

Not my problem. No judge would accept such a defense, when charged with perchusing a stolen car. In other words, lausy argument of yours.
Doesn't apply. land was not stolen.

Nope. In 18th Century, the land was mosly empty.
Right, that's why there was ample place for a Jewish and Arab states. and the fact remains that the majority of population in Jer'm, Hebron, Jaffa, Haifa ....... was Arabic.

Not true. The Arab population you familiar with are immigrants from all over the Arab world. It enough to pay attention to some of their names or even their own personal history. Yet you can't be bothered with tiny details do you? You know better...
Show examples. what do you mean by their names or "personal history". what is this? blog?

If everything is open to interpertations, then this argument about the need for interpertations, is itself open to interpertations.
but if you interpret this argument then you accept that everyting is open for interpratations...

Jewish immigrants are Jews returning to thier homeland from exile, from many countries which never were a homeland for Jews. Arabs are immigrants from their homeland into a land which is not theirs, which they demand to rule.
That is your interpratation. this is a statement with no reason behind it other then yuo own convinction. Now you need to support it with some evidence: historical facts perhaps? immigration numbers? foreign names? personal history? anything? indeed, nice "absoluties." funny they are not presented at all.

It is pathetic how you relive your ignorance by calling any new fact offsetting your cement molded extrem left mind set.
Once again, if I am do refute, or even accept these "new facts" I need to SEE them first.

Again your ignorance is showing. Over 30%-50% of Germany was annexed by several countries, including France, Cheoslovakia, Poland, Ukrain and Russia, to this very day. Japan lost the island of Sachalin (to the north of Hokaido)
Not convinced. SHOW ME. I want to see the 50% of Germany annexed to several countries.
Japan still claims ownership of the islands occupied by Russia. Just because they don't start a war with Russia does not mean they don't believe the land belongs to them.

Beating the Germans is what brought peace to Europe. Not the conceadings that preceded the war and even hastened it's erruption.
irrelevant. No one claims otherwise. the question is did the bombing of Dresden was required to beat Germany? don't bother answering, I know your answer.

This difference exists in your eyes only. Not in the eyes of the rest of the world, particularly the Arabs. From a veteran of Ummah forum like you, I would expect a little more honesty.
the rest of the world says the same, manifested in UN resolutions.

I think the differ.
That is your interpratation.

[ygalg1]

sharonbn

1.If they willing to put aside their doctrine, not in the interpretation of abandon it but layoff from conducting sort of verdicts that are against other fellow beings outside Islam, without real just reason, that would be acceptable to all of us the non Muslims and Under international law. Then we have a progress.

2.trust it is another obstacle that troubles me, again it concern their doctrine. They are not allow to take friends outside Islam, I have no problem of not to be friend of them. But how would it be assure they won’t attack me. I heard there is a passage says allow them to lie to non-Muslims. it is not in my imagination.

My interpretation of their position, it is absolutely impossible, to achieve fruitful peace.

3.saying it is a land of Arabs, why not to return them then? Starting with you

[sharonbn]

sharonbn
1.If they willing to put aside their doctrine, not in the interpretation of abandon it but layoff from conducting sort of verdicts that are against other fellow beings outside Islam, without real just reason, that would be acceptable to all of us the non Muslims and Under international law. Then we have a progress.
I already answered that. There is no doctrine.
Israel made peace with its arch-enemy, Egypt. and also with Jordan. So these two coutries were willing to put aside their "doctrine" or whatever. It means we can do it with Syria, Lebanon and hopefully PA.

2.trust it is another obstacle that troubles me, again it concern their doctrine. They are not allow to take friends outside Islam, I have no problem of not to be friend of them. But how would it be assure they won’t attack me. I heard there is a passage says allow them to lie to non-Muslims. it is not in my imagination.
Trust is a mutual thing. Israel has cheated and lied before, so the two sides need to overcome the past and trust one another. Same as Sadat trusted Begin and vice versa.

My interpretation of their position, it is absolutely impossible, to achieve fruitful peace.
I'm sure there are lots of them who think the same about Israel. Anyway, I personally didn't lose hope. Maybe Abbas can make a change, maybe not. time will tell.

3.saying it is a land of Arabs, why not to return them then? Starting with you
I am talking about the occupied territories. why is it soooooo hard to comprehend? Why do you need this cheap provocation to make some strange point? state your case and lose the childlish attitude. it really doesn't serve your message.

[ygalg1]

to sharonbn

Ask them this

1.Willingly they, to be satisfied, with the occupied territories only?

2.How would they, consider peace with Israel, despite the contrast of their doctrine?

3.What their opinion about violation of agreements in the past between Israel and Palestinians, should only Israel take the fault?

4.What will be the core for solution to bring peace with Israel?

[sharonbn]

these are questions for the peace negotiations. and I am not a representative of the Pals.. you can ask them whatever you like yourself. but I guess you know the answers already.... :rolleyes:

[Gilgamesh]

Well, surprise surprise - peace with Japan was achievable without dropping the Atom bomb. Proof please...

The bombing of German cities served only revenge, no tactical reason. The bombing did cause the German a minor trauma of the sort that encourage one to stick on the pacefist attitude. He who burnt by the boiled (water), cautious with the cold.
Peace with Egypt followed after Egypt surprised Israel in 73. Peace with Egypt followed the fact only intence Soviet pressure premitted Sharon from wipeing out the Egyption 3rd Army.
History says I edit out personal offending attacks. What do you think? It is impossible to burry the truth. It will come up eventualy. Lie is a Lie, always. Enlighted people search the truth, not apologies for lies, like you do.
Doesn't apply. land was not stolen. ... Doesn't apply. land was not stolen. Steal (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry?id=S0725700)
VERB:
stole (stl) KEY , sto·len (stln) KEY , steal·ing , steals
VERB:
tr.

To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

I knew you need the English defenition. Glad I could help.

As long as Arabs claim our land to be theirs, their are thieves or would be thieves.

Right, that's why there was ample place for a Jewish and Arab states. Why? Just because the Arabs say so? I say I want a BN US$, does that mean I also deserve it?

Show examples. what do you mean by their names or "personal history". what is this? blog? Many Arab Hammulas or indivudals, know quite well where they are from, and where their grand parents are REALLY from. In most cases they are immigrants from all over the Arab world.
Snap demonstrations. There are in several places in Israel Hammulas of Sudani Arabs. They are easy to notice, they are Black. Arab who call himself Iraqi or Massri can't be indiginious by self proclaimation.

but if you interpret this argument then you accept that everyting is open for interpratations... No, I say Post Modernism is BS. Interpertate that without being an idiot.

Now you need to support it with some evidence: historical facts perhaps? immigration numbers? foreign names? personal history? anything? I can't supplay you a source without chaning the debate to the nature of my sources. Such facts are abundent for any one looking for the truth. I suggest you find the truth yourself. You are the one lacking in his education. I must be paid to take responsibility over your emance ignorance.

btw. Try Nativ.
Once again, if I am do refute, or even accept these "new facts" I need to SEE them first. Use google. Your ignorance is not my responsiblity.
Not convinced. SHOW ME. I want to see the 50% of Germany annexed to several countries. Unless you'll pay my part in a historical vecation to Germany, I suggest you try to master the arts of google first. But for your desperate situation, Britanica la'No'ar will do too.
Japan still claims ownership of the islands occupied by Russia. Just because they don't start a war with Russia does not mean they don't believe the land belongs to them. They also believe their emparor is the Son of the Sun godess.

the rest of the world says the same, manifested in UN resolutions. What authority does the UN holds? For me, nothing. UN resolutions are only instruments in the Arab phases plan, aspecialy when interperted freely.

That is your interpratation.That is your interpratation

[sharonbn]

Proof please...

Well, unlike you and your arrogant attitude, stating all kind of unfounded claims, then sending people to google to do your job of checking the truth. I take pride in the ability to do basic research and back up my statements:

http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

HIROSHIMA: WAS IT NECESSARY?

Was the use of atomic bombs on Japanese cities necessary to bring Japan's doves to play the Emperor card? The Japanese doves had been working to end the war on the condition of retention of the throne (Butow, pg. 141) before the a-bombs that killed over 200,000 people were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (The Committee For the Compilation of Materials on Damage Caused by the Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings, pg. 113-114).

Might the war have been ended sooner, with fewer deaths on both sides, before the Soviets had gotten into northern Korea (thus possibly avoiding the Korean War), before the atomic bombing of Hiroshima frightened the Soviets into putting their atomic bomb program into high gear (David Holloway, Stalin and the Bomb, pg. 127-129, 132), and before an atomic precedent had been set? While there can be no conclusive answer to this question, it is worthwhile to study this topic for whatever insight it may give for future decision-making and the future saving of lives on all sides.

Historian and former Naval officer Martin Sherwin has summarized the situation, stating, "The choice in the summer of 1945 was not between a conventional invasion or a nuclear war. It was a choice between various forms of diplomacy and warfare." (Sherwin, pg. xxiv).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/trinity/supplement/procon.html
Why the bomb was needed or justified:
* The Japanese had demonstrated near-fanatical resistance, fighting to almost the last man on Pacific islands, committing mass suicide on Saipan and unleashing kamikaze attacks at Okinawa. Fire bombing had killed 100,000 in Tokyo with no discernible political effect. Only the atomic bomb could jolt Japan's leadership to surrender.

* With only two bombs ready (and a third on the way by late August 1945) it was too risky to "waste" one in a demonstration over an unpopulated area.

* An invasion of Japan would have caused casualties on both sides that could easily have exceeded the toll at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

* The two targeted cities would have been firebombed anyway.

* Immediate use of the bomb convinced the world of its horror and prevented future use when nuclear stockpiles were far larger.

* The bomb's use impressed the Soviet Union and halted the war quickly enough that the USSR did not demand joint occupation of Japan.

Why the bomb was not needed, or unjustified:
* Japan was ready to call it quits anyway. More than 60 of its cities had been destroyed by conventional bombing, the home islands were being blockaded by the American Navy, and the Soviet Union entered the war by attacking Japanese troops in Manchuria.

* American refusal to modify its "unconditional surrender" demand to allow the Japanese to keep their emperor needlessly prolonged Japan's resistance.

* A demonstration explosion over Tokyo harbor would have convinced Japan's leaders to quit without killing many people.

* Even if Hiroshima was necessary, the U.S. did not give enough time for word to filter out of its devastation before bombing Nagasaki.

* The bomb was used partly to justify the $2 billion spent on its development.

* The two cities were of limited military value. Civilians outnumbered troops in Hiroshima five or six to one.

* Japanese lives were sacrificed simply for power politics between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

* Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons

[Mediocrates]

Yes that is one theory. Gar Alperovitz championed it years ago. Hardly proof though.

[sharonbn]

Steal (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry?id=S0725700)
VERB:
stole (stl) KEY , sto·len (stln) KEY , steal·ing , steals
VERB:
tr.

To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

I knew you need the English defenition. Glad I could help.

As long as Arabs claim our land to be theirs, their are thieves or would be thieves.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=mwlaw&q=statute%20of%20limitations
Main Entry: statute of limitations
1 a : a statute establishing a period of time from the accrual of a cause of action (as upon the occurrence or discovery of an injury) within which a right of action must be exercised —compare LACHES (http://dictionary.reference.com/legal/search?db=mwlaw&nq=laches), STATUTE OF REPOSE (http://dictionary.reference.com/legal/search?db=mwlaw&nq=statuteofrepose) b : a criminal statute establishing the period of time within which an offense can be punished after its commission
2 : a period of time established by a statute of limitations for commencing an action or prosecution
3 : an affirmative defense that the statute of limitations has expired

---> b : a criminal statute establishing the period of time within which an offense can be punished after its commission

Now, 1,500 years maybe shot or long, but its a tiny bit longer than the legal statute of limitations for theft, or any criminal act.

[Mediocrates]

You're all being silly now.

[sharonbn]

Yes that is one theory. Gar Alperovitz championed it years ago. Hardly proof though.

from the above links

Japan seeks peace through the Soviets


In the meantime, the Japanese government was attempting to persuade the Soviet Union to mediate a peace for Japan that would not be unconditional. This was in response to the Emperor's request at a Big Six meeting on June 22, 1945 to seek peace thru the Soviets, who were the only major member of the Allies that had a neutrality pact with Japan at the time (Butow, pg. 118-120). Unfortunately for all concerned, Japan's leaders were divided over precisely what terms should be sought to end the war, with the Japanese military leaders still wishing to avoid anything that the Allies would have considered a clear "surrender". Surely Japan's leaders hold the lion's share of the responsibility for the fate that befell Japan.

Having broken the code Japan used for transmitting messages, the U.S. was able to follow Japan's efforts to end the war as it intercepted the messages between Foreign Minister Togo and Japan's Ambassador to Moscow Sato. The messages were sent as the result of the June 22, 1945 Japanese Cabinet meeting. The conditions under which Japan was willing to surrender were not clearly spelled out in the messages, aside from a willingness to give up territory occupied during the war and a repeated rejection of "unconditional surrender".


July 1945 - Japan's peace messages

Still, the messages from Togo to Sato, read by the U.S. at the time, clearly indicated that Japan was seeking to end the war:

July 11: "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result of the war; we hope to terminate the war".
July 12: "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".
July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" (for above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879).
July 18: "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for negotiations with England and America." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government." The July 21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 25: "it is impossible to accept unconditional surrender under any circumstances, but we should like to communicate to the other party through appropriate channels that we have no objection to a peace based on the Atlantic Charter." (U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 2, pg. 1260 - 1261).
July 26: Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).


President Truman knew of the messages' content, noting, for instance, in his diary on July 18, "Stalin had told P.M. [Prime Minister Churchill] of telegram from Jap [sic] Emperor asking for peace" (Robert Ferrell, ed., Off the Record - the Private Papers of Harry S. Truman, pg. 53). In passing up this possible opportunity for an earlier and less deadly peace, Truman was not deliberately trying to prolong the war so the atomic bomb could be used on Japan to intimidate the Soviets. Briefly stated, it is likely that Truman believed the use of atomic bombs on Japan was necessary primarily for the reasons he always gave: "We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans" (Public Papers of the Presidents, Harry S. Truman, 1945, pg. 212). (For the most thorough exposition of the view that the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan primarily for their effect on the Soviet Union, see Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb. Due to its many sources of documentation, this book will be of interest whether one shares Alperovitz' views or not).

[Mediocrates]

Yes that is one theory.

[sharonbn]

Yes that is one theory.
What I presented is not a theory. It is factual description of historical events, complete with reference to historical documents. There is no assumption here, only list of historical facts.

The only theorizing is what face Japanease surrender would take place, had the US signed peace with it before dropping the bomb. There can be no denial that Japan was seeking to end the war prior to Aug. 1945 through Russian mediation. They were only concerned about the fate of their Emperor.

[Gilgamesh]

Sharonbn, the Japan thing is just a theory, not a fact. It isn't even a new theory either. I am left unimpressed.

Japan had full knowladge the Brits and Americans would stop at nothing less then unconditional surrender, as they agreed togather previously.

The relevence of the story you've brought up is doubious as well.

Even according to your own sources, it turns out Japan was trying to surrender about a month before it was forced to surrender. Meaning, by the date relevent to your sources, July 1945, Japan was already on its keens waiting for its decapitation.

Your source only strengtheing my original point, which was that only force and lots of it turns war loving nation into pacefist one.

There are few Germans wondering in our forum. You can ask them streight forward, if Germany was pacefist without having their cities bombed and the women raped by drunk Soviet troops.

[Mediocrates]

What I presented is not a theory. It is factual description of historical events, complete with reference to historical documents. There is no assumption here, only list of historical facts.


Sure I understand that one sided history. It's not complicated. As I said Gar Alperovitz and the revisionists have been touting this new interpretations since the 1970's.

[sharonbn]

please, guys, don't let factual account ditter your conviction. Please, don't bother do basic research to back up your pov. why bother? Its easier to just arrogantly dismiss the other guy's research. easier to arrogantly tell the other guy to do the googling. also helps end this tiring discussion very quickly.

offense is indeed the best defense.

You won. we should drop our atomic bombs on the arabs. While we're at it we can drop some on France because they hate us, and some on Spain because their beers taste like piss.

I'm done. thank you very much and good bye.

[Mediocrates]

please, guys, don't let factual account ditter your conviction. Please, don't bother do basic research to back up your pov. why bother? Its easier to just arrogantly dismiss the other guy's research. easier to arrogantly tell the other guy to do the googling. also helps end this tiring discussion very quickly.

My only point was that this is a relatively recent PoV for historians to have. I'm sure you recognize that 'history' changes with the times. Even now with the resurgence of revisionism and deniers and the like. I'm sure that in 40 years your children will read about the 'dark period' of Jewish Palestine as well, as a brief period of historical truth and so on....all I'm saying.

we should drop our atomic bombs on the arabs. While we're at it we can drop some on France because they hate us,

No one said that.

and some on Spain because their beers taste like piss.

Then nuke Anheiser-Busch first.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, unlike you and your arrogant attitude, stating all kind of unfounded claims, then sending people to google to do your job of checking the truth. I take pride in the ability to do basic research and back up my statements:
.....
* Conventional firebombing would have caused as much significant damage without making the U.S. the first nation to use nuclear weapons

This is the most stupid revisionist piece I've ever read on this forum. Even the Japanese historians agree that it was by far the best alternative to anything else. But then that doesn't have the "evil West", "evul America," or "evul Jews" in it, so of course the leftists would prefere to invent something about it that does have one or more of the above.

[KettleWhistle]

offense is indeed the best defense.

That's the official Israeli millitary doctine dictated by Israeli geography.
we should drop our atomic bombs on the arabs.
Wrong. Arabs need to be expelled en masse to where they came from--the Arab states. They have no place in the Jewish state and they must go, so that WE can have PEACE.

[Ophra]

That's the official Israeli millitary doctine dictated by Israeli geography.

Wrong. Arabs need to be expelled en masse to where they came from--the Arab states. They have no place in the Jewish state and they must go, so that WE can have PEACE.

"" so that WE can have PEACE "" ... ???? .... :confused: ... Mama Mia :eek:
Why did nobody tell me there was a war going on in LA US of A ????

[Mediocrates]

The Bush position seems to duck and hide behind stating flat out that their acceptable shape of Israel is the 1949 armistice lines. That's probably what he told Abbas last week. And then Yaalon said you should give up Golan and Shaba as well. I suspect that "Israeli Opinion" is rapidly running out of real estate to give away. I'm guessing that no Arabs are pressing for the Negev - maybe you can keep that.

[KettleWhistle]

"" so that WE can have PEACE "" ... ???? .... :confused: ... Mama Mia :eek:
Why did nobody tell me there was a war going on in LA US of A ????

Blablablablabla....

All the Jews are my people. If there is a war in Israel, in which enemies of MY PEOPLE want to remove MY PEOPLE from MY native land, it is my war, as it ought to be every Jew's war.

But I wouldn't expect someone who adores a murderer, deserter, and traitor to understand it. You have to love your native land and have a sense of loyalty to your people to get that.

[Ophra]

Blablablablabla....

All the Jews are my people. If there is a war in Israel, in which enemies of MY PEOPLE want to remove MY PEOPLE from MY native land, it is my war, as it ought to be every Jew's war.

But I wouldn't expect someone who adores a murderer, deserter, and traitor to understand it. You have to love your native land and have a sense of loyalty to your people to get that.

.... and maybe.... just maybe? ..... live here and serve in the IDF as all our kids do..... both male and female ;)

[Mediocrates]

Blablablablabla....

All the Jews are my people. If there is a war in Israel, in which enemies of MY PEOPLE want to remove MY PEOPLE from MY native land, it is my war, as it ought to be every Jew's war.

But I wouldn't expect someone who adores a murderer, deserter, and traitor to understand it. You have to love your native land and have a sense of loyalty to your people to get that.


Meditate....Ommmmmmmmm. breathe in breathe out.

[KettleWhistle]

.... and maybe.... just maybe? ..... live here and serve in the IDF as all our kids do..... both male and female ;)

Your children can go out and patrol parking lots or hide in the safety of command centers, while others put themselves on the line. Or run away from battles like your hero/god, whom you so admire.

I'm a bit more capable than that. And a bit more useful doing what I am doing.

[Mediocrates]

"" so that WE can have PEACE "" ... ???? .... :confused: ... Mama Mia :eek:
Why did nobody tell me there was a war going on in LA US of A ????

Nobody seriously doubts you'll eventually get your way. When you lord it over your Jewish losers in this conflict and treat your own like a conquered nation I wonder what it is you'll have gained? I wonder what kind of civil peace you'll maintain, or will it be another relocation to Dimona? A new paradise in the Ramon Crater? Just keep them out of Eilat, I gather.

[NewsGuy]

.... and maybe.... just maybe? ..... live here and serve in the IDF as all our kids do..... both male and female ;)

Ophra, we've heard this already from you many, many times. You seem to think that you can respond to KW's points by just telling him that since he does not live in Israel, his opinion is less valid than yours.

But in reality KW's opinions are those held by many (if not the majority) of Israelis, and I think we all know that there are (at least) as many Israelis who live and serve in Israel who agree with KW as those who agree with you.

So, I would suggest that you avoid using the "Sumud" tactic of going over and over in circles about the person posting, instead of responding directly to the issues.

[Ophra]

Ophra, we've heard this already from you many, many times. You seem to think that you can respond to KW's points by just telling him that since he does not live in Israel, his opinion is less valid than yours.

But in reality KW's opinions are those held by many (if not the majority) of Israelis, and I think we all know that there are (at least) as many Israelis who live and serve in Israel who agree with KW as those who agree with you.

So, I would suggest that you avoid using the "Sumud" tactic of going over and over in circles about the person posting, instead of responding directly to the issues.

Newsguy, I assure you that his opinion is less valid than mine... as is yours. When I presume to say something negative about your country or it's politicians,or his, then you can tell me off .

Sorry,but, in reality KW's opinions are held by a minority of Israelis .... I could give you Poll results to back this up but you would just mock them as y'all have done before.

Funny how you have never thought to say a thing before when KW has constantly hounded me and made personal attacks against me and my family ..... why is that please ??????

Funny how you never said a word when he boasted on here of committing a criminal act by desecrating Rabin's memorial .... why is that please ????

Could it be because this forum is biased towards the Israeli and Jewish extreme right . ????

[Ophra]

Your children can go out and patrol parking lots or hide in the safety of command centers, while others put themselves on the line. Or run away from battles like your hero/god, whom you so admire.

I'm a bit more capable than that. And a bit more useful doing what I am doing.

Both my sons serve within elite combat units KW .... so wrong again. Sorry.
My father served together with Rabin ... neither of them ran away from anything ,ever, all of their Army lives.

[Ophra]

Nobody seriously doubts you'll eventually get your way. When you lord it over your Jewish losers in this conflict and treat your own like a conquered nation I wonder what it is you'll have gained? I wonder what kind of civil peace you'll maintain, or will it be another relocation to Dimona? A new paradise in the Ramon Crater? Just keep them out of Eilat, I gather.

Hopefully we will gain Peace .... it is what it is all about Medio... not about lording it over anyone.
When you have lived all of your life at war and watched your children march off like you once watched your father march off .... come back and make snide remarks at me.... I might appreciate your long distant humor more then .

[KettleWhistle]

Both my sons serve within elite combat units KW .... so wrong again. Sorry.
You admitted yourself that they are in command positions. Leutenant-Colonels or something like that. One of my relatives is a retired Colonel. I'm well-aware of what they do.

As a side note, because of this connection I made more than 200 parachute jumps and was able to assemble an AK with my eyes closed by the age of 14. I bet your sons were still suckling on your udders at that age. But regarless, as you may imagine, service in the IDF would've been a bit of a bore. And that's aside from it making as much sense as for Baron Rothschild to buy a couple pairs of khaki shorts and go to dig to cow $hit alongside Ben Gurion. So basically, it's like Dr. Dre said, "what's the difference..." (you can look up the rest of it)

My father served together with Rabin ... neither of them ran away from anything ,ever, all of their Army lives.

Oops, sorry, but the Army records indicate otherwise. On April 20, 1948 he ran away from the battlefield, after failing his mission to protect a convoy. While he was running away like Teddy Kennedy from Chappaquidick bridge, the junior officers whom he abandoned were defending their position and managed a sucessful counterattack.

[Mediocrates]

Hopefully we will gain Peace .... it is what it is all about Medio... not about lording it over anyone.

You sound positively giddy at the prospect of gobsmacking all the Jews.


When you have lived all of your life at war and watched your children march off like you once watched your father march off .... come back and make snide remarks at me.... I might appreciate your long distant humor more then .

I have lots of gallows-humor oncology and medical disaster jokes too. Point in fact, what's the plan you've got for all those Jews you love to hate.

[Ophra]

You admitted yourself that they are in command positions. Leutenant-Colonels or something like that. One of my relatives is a retired Colonel. I'm well-aware of what they do.

As a side note, because of this connection I made more than 200 parachute jumps and was able to assemble an AK with my eyes closed by the age of 14. I bet your sons were still suckling on your udders at that age. But regarless, as you may imagine, service in the IDF would've been a bit of a bore. And that's aside from it making as much sense as for Baron Rothschild to buy a couple pairs of khaki shorts and go to dig to cow $hit alongside Ben Gurion. So basically, it's like Dr. Dre said, "what's the difference..." (you can look up the rest of it)


Oops, sorry, but the Army records indicate otherwise. On April 20, 1948 he ran away from the battlefield, after failing his mission to protect a convoy. While he was running away like Teddy Kennedy from Chappaquidick bridge, the junior officers whom he abandoned were defending their position and managed a sucessful counterattack.

You make this stuff up as you go along KW .... over here we have read all your posts since day one.... according to you.. you are SuperJew that is not only glaringly handsome and super successful and in demand by soooooo many woman.... you have also been there ... done that ..done everything !!and... been a political prisoner .
Plus you have been everywhere in Israel :rolleyes: ... including describing a Kibbutz that just does not exist ... they are really conservative places you know :)
We are of the opinion that you are an adolescent , living your fantasies from behind a computer screen.

[Ophra]

You sound positively giddy at the prospect of gobsmacking all the Jews.




I have lots of gallows-humor oncology and medical disaster jokes too. Point in fact, what's the plan you've got for all those Jews you love to hate.

I don't hate anyone Medio.... I don't even hate the Arabs... and trust me on this... I have lots more reason to hate them than you do.

[KettleWhistle]

You make this stuff up as you go along KW .... over here we have read all your posts since day one.... according to you.. you are SuperJew that is not only glaringly handsome and super successful and in demand by soooooo many woman.... you have also been there ... done that ..done everything !!and... been a political prisoner .
Plus you have been everywhere in Israel :rolleyes: ... including describing a Kibbutz that just does not exist ... they are really conservative places you know :)
We are of the opinion that you are an adolescent , living your fantasies from behind a computer screen.

LOL. No need to be jelaous. And I'm still waiting on an update about you reporting me to Shabak. Let me know how that's going.

[Ophra]

LOL. No need to be jelaous. And I'm still waiting on an update about you reporting me to Shabak. Let me know how that's going.

Sure.

My husband personally took print-outs of your posts regarding Rabin etc... and the threats from minus... and the threatening PM's you sent me ...including all your disgusting personal attacks...to the GSS.
BTW ... my husband is not just anyone KW ;)
They are preparing a report for him and have promised us a written reply once that have checked up on you as best they can with the info we gave them.
It was their suggestion that you are probably a 13 year old with a big ego :D

Errrrr ....jealous of what ?????

[minusthejihad]

Haha! You are one funny lady. Threat! LOL. Nah Nah Nah Nah Na, come and get me biaatches!

[KettleWhistle]

I'm so sure that GSS will be all up on their ears over my PM to Ophra saying her messages that violate the forum rules will be deleted.

[minusthejihad]

My favorite past-time is to read Ophra's many conflicting posts about her powerful Kibbutznik family. Though I think of Borden's Elsie when I image her typing.

[KettleWhistle]

Ditto.

But given how coo-coo she is, I have to admit that it makes me a bit uneasy that I gave her my info (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7954&page=2).

[Ophra]

My favorite past-time is to read Ophra's many conflicting posts about her powerful Kibbutznik family. Though I think of Borden's Elsie when I image her typing.

Nobody holds power on a Kibbutz Minus... everything is shared .. including taking turns at holding the power . Actually most people reject having power... it's too much hassle most of the time.

My family is no more powerful than any other on our Kibbutz .

[Ophra]

Ditto.

But given how coo-coo she is, I have to admit that it makes me a bit uneasy that I gave her my info (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7954&page=2).

I'm coo-coo :rolleyes:

I have never broken a Law in my life .... if I had I most certainly would not boast about it on an internet forum .

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, persons with paranoid personality disorder are known as "coo-coos" in lay language. And given that you have access to firearms, I have every reason to feel uneasy.

[Ophra]

Yes, persons with paranoid personality disorder are known as "coo-coos" in lay language. And given that you have access to firearms, I have every reason to feel uneasy.

Now who is being silly ??

You live half the world away KW ... besides that I'm a mother... I would never hurt a child :D

[KettleWhistle]

Sorry, not buying it. Aside from your hatemongering and spitful attitude, to take someone's joke about spanking you, and that posted on a virtually anonimous internet forum, as a personal threat, is just classical paranoid personality disorder, straight out of DSM IV.

I just hope the Kibbutz kitchen got a lock on the meat cleaver drawer.

[sharonbn]

ok, 14 pages are enough for everyone to speak their minds, on and off topic.

Thread is closed.