Shin Bet fears Jewish terror

[sharonbn]

New security chief says agency has no sense of humor when it comes to threats on Temple Mount; Yuval Diskin also concerned Israel may not be able to target Hamas terrorists should they become political leaders following Palestinian elections

JERUSALEM - Newly-appointed Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin expressed his concern Tuesday over the danger of terror attacks initiated by Jews.

In response to claims made by right-wing Knesset members that Monday's reports of plans to attack the Temple Mount were exaggerated, Diskin told the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, "The Shin Bet has no sense of humor regarding anything related to the Temple Mount."

He also addressed the possibility of attempts to assassinate Israeli politicians.

"Israeli society would not withstand another attack on a prime minister," he said. " If, God forbid, a senior political figure would be harmed by Jews, it would be an explosive wave that would possibly hurt Israel strategically."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086640,00.html

[KettleWhistle]

Yawn.

[Mediocrates]

It's kind of funny, in a dark way that people like me get a chuckle over, that you're waving your hands over your heads for exactly the same kind of fatuous threat condition rainbow silliness that you criticize us for. What's the Sharon Threat Color today? Fuschia? Steel? Kaddish?

[KettleWhistle]

Oh, no, it is very threatening to the "piece process" [sic] if those fanatical Joos will build a catapult to launch a pig into the Dome on the Rock.

[Gilgamesh]

JERUSALEM - Newly-appointed Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin expressed his concern Tuesday over the danger of terror attacks initiated by Jews.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086640,00.html

Typical Oslo style propaganda.
Back then, mere a decade ago, Shin Beit agent provocators gave actual interviews and allowed specaily elected "reporters" to witness and record their "underground" ceremonies and speaches...

Youth, in pre-military service (ha'chana tzva'it) drills, where said to belong to a secreat illegal "militia" or "underground" poised to take over the goverment... ect...

Spin doctares and fear mongers, utilizing the absolute ignorance of the <edited by moderator> far left Tel-Avivians about the religious and right wing people, so to white wash illegal govoerment policies.

[sharonbn]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

You certainly need to prop up your enemies and make them bigger than they actually are - that much is clear.

[sharonbn]

to that I say: Once bitten...

[Mediocrates]

Fair enough. But it pays to be rational and not try to paint all the settlers as glint eyed fanatics. Unless you have plans to lock them all into barb wire camps in the Negev they're going to be coming home to live among you. Maybe preemptively hating them is not such a good idea. It's not like you have a few million spare Jewish Israelis laying around.

[sharonbn]

No one tries to paint all the settlers as "glint eyed fanatics" (go reread the news item if you wish). and no one wishes to "lock them all into barb wire camps".
Following these kind of responses I would say that more than the left tries to "prop up" their enemies, the right is expressing excess paranoya at the legitimate and serious warning signs that come from unbiased, a-political security forces and inteligence sources.

and once more I will say this: we will all meet again after the attempted assasination of PM Sharon and/or bombing of temple mount, and then I would like to see some hats being eaten.

[Mediocrates]

Attempted? No harm no foul I say. Look someone tossed a Chinese handgrenade - probably one of those cheapass things built by school children, at Bush recently and it didn't go off. Real terrorists use American made Semtex - so if anyone's planning on throwing exploding swine at the al Aqsa or taking potshots at the most guarded man in the world, they'd better have a better backyup plan.

Today's threat rainbow color is

CLOWN

I think what this speaks to is a problem within the Shin Bet itself in terms of security vetting their own staff.

[KettleWhistle]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

Even if Rabin wasn't a criminal, which he was (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44), what is such a big deal about it?

[KettleWhistle]

BTW, Rabin's assasination had nothing to do with Right or Left. It had to do his betrayal of all Israelis and of all Jews.

[sharonbn]

Even if Rabin wasn't a criminal, which he was (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44), what is such a big deal about it?
we all know of your mizantropic pov
yawn

[KettleWhistle]

Not mizanthropic--that description belongs to the Israeli left--but realistic. There is little out there, aside from terrorist-praising Arab media, pseudo-liberal forums and publications, and neo-Nazi forums that can rival the hatemongering the malicious divisiveness spouted by Israeli left and HaAretz about the settlers. And again, what is such a big deal about some politician's death?

[ygalg1]

I disagree he was a traitor. he was drawn by his supporters to that limit he seems lost his grip of reality.

I hate to say it but his assassination prevented greater disaster.

I rather would satisfy if he were removed from his seat alive.

Muslims as we read their posts and witness their acts only proves that peace it is delusion. Just to look at there doctrine it is understood that there no place for non-Muslim lives. further more The accusation of Israel government been apartheid

Read this doctrine read their posts, majority votes for one thing. Their doctrine it is laws of apartheid.

They define their pro Palestinians as the left party Israelis “agnostic” who help them in meant time. And then when the goal will be accomplish the lefties going to make a decision stay secular and be shot or convert to Islam and live.

You the left supporters you have disgust over our own religion yet you support Palestinians who are 99% religious with that doctrine of theirs.

If some one should be called traitor in full scale it is you.

[Gilgamesh]

right on, its only leftist propoganda.
its not like the extreme right ever actually did something in the past, like assasinate a prime minister or anything like that.... :rolleyes:

The "Right wing" ??? I always thought only Yig'al Amir has murdered Rabin! Now I know the truth Sharonbn, I was involve in the murder myself, since I am right wing too... :rolleyes:

How stupid can one be?

If I took part in Rabin's assination (although I was still in regular service), the I suppose you took part in the season and the sinking of Altalena, which was filled, BTW by American Jews vollenteering to liberate Jerusalem. 26 guys murdered by Rabin, following Ben-Gurions orders that day.

[sharonbn]

First of all, when you use quotes, please make sure you're actually quoting the source. I didn't say right wing, I said extreme right.

Second, I don't believe I have to explain this:

Just because someone didn't pull the trigger does not mean he/she does not bear any responsibility.
What you describe is the classic shin gimel case.
Amir got the legitimacy and encouragement to do what he did from his surroundings and his role models. He is a product of the hate and incitement that dominated the right wing at that time (and still does). and if there will be an assassination attempt of PM Sharon, it will be the same story - a product of the uncontrolled hate and incitement of the right wing against its political rivals.

One more thing:
Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.
All (and I mean ALL) political assassination and violent acts belong solely to the right wing (e.g. Yona Avrushmi) All recent Israeli PMs (Rabin, Barak, Bibi and Sharon) were asked to wear bullet-proof vests because of threats from extremists of one side only. All Jewish terrorist groups since the establishment of the state of Israel (and most of them before that) belong to extremists of one side only. All Jewish lone terrorists belong to extremists of one side only.

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin. And I don't mean to praise this faction, they did their share of harming Israel's security, but its still a fact - they do not even think of the option to go and kill their political rivals.

So if you ask me if you took part in Rabin's assignation, the answer is I don't know. Maybe you were too young. But let me ask you this: Are you sure in your heart that you will not "take part" in the next political assassination? (and we ALL know which side will the killer come from...) remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say.

[KettleWhistle]

Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.
You are joking, right?

[sharonbn]

Despite rightist claims and provocations, Leftists (Israeli Leftists) do not support or even tolerate Palestinian terror attacks.

[KettleWhistle]

Ye, sure. That must be why they sound so somber when giving away more of our homeland to the enemy in response.

[KettleWhistle]

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin.
Probably not. Leftists do prefer group killings like Altalena and arming and assisting the enemy so that it can kill our people for them.

remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say. And of course the leftists' favorite tactics--harrasment and selective persecution of political dissedents.

[Gilgamesh]

First of all, when you use quotes, please make sure you're actually quoting the source. I didn't say right wing, I said extreme right. In my visit to whistlestopper forum, I found out that any one right to Ilan Papa is considered "extrem right". Extrem and less extrem are relative and qualitive matters. I reffered to the "right", in your quote.

Either way, you are wrong. I had nothing to do with Rabin's murder, nor am I welcome such a murder, however I disliked and actualy discusted from Rabin, both as a person and as a politician.

Second, I don't believe I have to explain this:

Just because someone didn't pull the trigger does not mean he/she does not bear any responsibility.
What you describe is the classic shin gimel case.

Thought, any thought, is never a crime. Unless you are ready to outlaw the whole Zionist ideology in Israel, you can't accuse anybody else outside the murderer and his co-conspiritors. The extrem left pathetic efforts to paint the whole Zionist movement in the same color is outragous, as if Rabin is the new Jessus and all Jews are guilty in his death for all eternity. Typical left wing BS.

Amir got the legitimacy and encouragement to do what he did from his surroundings and his role models. He is a product of the hate and incitement that dominated the right wing at that time (and still does). It was proven already the person behind it was a Shin Beith member, probabley following Rabin's own orders, working with Rabin's court jurnalists. I have been in Israel at the time, and I read the papers which most reminded me the Pravda in thier lies and gross distortions as well as their zeal to outcast political rivals.

Amir was probabley a loose cannon, a conspiracy that backfired. It will take decades or a revolution before all the dirt will be dug up, and all the skelatons in all the closets will be reveled.

and if there will be an assassination attempt of PM Sharon, it will be the same story - a product of the uncontrolled hate and incitement of the right wing against its political rivals. First, to kill Sharon one will need an elephant's gun. :p Secondly, Sharon survived twice near death battle wounds. he is proven to be indistructable. Last, there are no attempts on PM Sharon life, it's all leftist propaganda. And a propaganda of a very shallow soddy type. Poor quality, wholey unconvinsing.

One more thing:
Besides the political differences, there is another difference between leftists and rightists in Israel:
rightists believe (and behave) as if violence is part of the solution, it is a part of the arsenal of means to reach the end. Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end. Good point! I noticed it before, when I called the Leftists decadent. The leftist feature you've descrived, of avoiding violance at all cost, even if it for their own survival is on the hand, is one of the most accurate defenitions of decadence.

I glad to say, I am as far from decadence as one possibley be.


political assassination and violent acts belong solely to the right wing (e.g. Yona Avrushmi) All recent Israeli PMs (Rabin, Barak, Bibi and Sharon) were asked to wear bullet-proof vests because of threats from extremists of one side only. All Jewish terrorist groups since the establishment of the state of Israel (and most of them before that) belong to extremists of one side only. All Jewish lone terrorists belong to extremists of one side only. This is the most one sided rather bigot opinion I've ever read, Sharonbn. You actually excel yourself.

Political violance was the trade mark of MaPai till the 60's. Political persecution of opponnents, political discrimination on all walks of life, provocators and brute force were used to disband political conventions. Before that, there was the Season (סזון) where Leftist betrayed their Jewish brothers of the resistance, reported them to the British occupation ragime to be hanged at the Gallows! Next was the Altalena, which your St. Rabin holds prime resonsibilty. St. Rabin was clearly moved by his political hate. He was a communist back then. All full Stalinist red back then. Don't forget Rabin's tyranical mother, Red Rosa. Rabin's role moder, Yitzchak Sade, was among the communist revolutionaries stroming the Czar winter palace at St. Petersburg.

Last, but not least, can you qunatify the number of Jews that could die due to the efforts of the many pro-Soviet communist spies in Israel? All done they treason by pure political motivation.

There was never and never will be a political assassination by left extremists. There was never and never will be a leftist lone assassin. I don't agree. Israel is on course of creating our own Red brigades or Red Army terror cells, who political assiniations are their bread and butter.

<edited by moderator>

Maybe you were too young. I was 19!!! In green!!! waiting at home for another episode of Babylon5 which never came...

But let me ask you this: Are you sure in your heart that you will not "take part" in the next political assassination? Let me ask you this, are you that brainwashed to think such about me??? Am I really a murderer staff??

(and we ALL know which side will the killer come from...) remember that Amir's friend, Margalit Har Shefi, was put on trial for saying basically the same thing that you say. Margalit HarShaffi was a perfect example of political persecution, and a stain on our democracy.

[Gilgamesh]

Despite rightist claims and provocations, Leftists (Israeli Leftists) do not support or even tolerate Palestinian terror attacks.
Have you been reading the latest Ha'aretz? Can you say such a thing in streight face??

[sharonbn]

You will not find in Haaretz a single item which condones terror attacks.
you will find descriptions of how Israel mistreats Palestinian civilians. You may dislike these articles, but they do not support terror attacks.

[sharonbn]

In my visit to whistlestopper forum, I found out that any one right to Ilan Papa is considered "extreme right". Extrem and less extrem are relative and qualitive matters. I reffered to the "right", in your quote.
Fine, so I have to explain myself: Extreme right is the various Jewish underground terror movements, like the one from Bat Ayn. Extreme right is also members of former Kach movement and spin off movements. Nice people like Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir.
This is, btw, the conventional definition. In any case, to take only "right" out of the quote "extreme right" and make it "right wing" (insinuating the whole right wing) is like taking "American Soldiers" out of "American Soldiers in Abu Ghraib". thereby insinuating that all American Soldiers were involved in torture of Iraqi POWs.

Thought, any thought, is never a crime. Unless you are ready to outlaw the whole Zionist ideology in Israel
I was not talking about thoughts. Right wing leaders and Rabbis didn't just silently "think" during 95. They also spoke a little, and it wasn't a whisper also. Are you that amnesiac that you don't remember the words, the signs, the pictures of that time?

I guess not. While the country was in high turmoil, you were "only" 19 and watching some sci-fi show on TV. You are right, you are not responsible for Rabin's assassination. I guess your responsibility extended as far as the remote control.

you can't accuse anybody else outside the murderer and his co-conspiritors.
This is simply not true in the legal sense. Legal terminology defines "ministerial responsibility" for the specific cases of "shin gimel" syndrome. Usually, the person who squeezes he trigger is not the real danger. The real danger comes from the leader who has a political agenda and manipulates naive youngsters.

The extrem left pathetic efforts to paint the whole Zionist movement in the same color is outrageous, as if Rabin is the new Jessus and all Jews are guilty in his death for all eternity. Typical left wing BS.
"all Jews are guilty in his death".... now that's what I call distortion.

It was proven already the person behind it was a Shin Beith member, probabley following Rabin's own orders, working with Rabin's court jurnalists. I have been in Israel at the time, and I read the papers which most reminded me the Pravda in thier lies and gross distortions as well as their zeal to outcast political rivals.
You "have been in Israel at the time"? meaning you're not here now?

Amir was probabley a loose cannon, a conspiracy that backfired. It will take decades or a revolution before all the dirt will be dug up, and all the skelatons in all the closets will be reveled.
There isn't a single political assassination that is not followed by conspiracy theories.

First, to kill Sharon one will need an elephant's gun. :p Secondly, Sharon survived twice near death battle wounds. he is proven to be indistructable. Last, there are no attempts on PM Sharon life, it's all leftist propaganda. And a propaganda of a very shallow soddy type. Poor quality, wholey unconvinsing.
Wow ,you're also funny. "there are no attempts on PM Sharon life". hilarious.

Good point! I noticed it before, when I called the Leftists decadent. The leftist feature you've descrived, of avoiding violance at all cost, even if it for their own survival is on the hand, is one of the most accurate definitions of decadence.

I glad to say, I am as far from decadence as one possibley be.

Aha... so let me get this "objective" observation:
Yigal Amir, Goldstein, Jewish undergrounds et al - they are all loose cannons, no indication of the right wing none whatsoever. But us Leftists are all decadent because we oppose violence as political means. All the leftist IDF soldiers and security forces who risk their lives to protect Israel, they are decadent...

Personally, I'd rather be decadent then a terrorist.

This is the most one sided rather bigot opinion I've ever read, Sharonbn. You actually excel yourself.

Political violence was the trade mark of MaPai till the 60's. Political persecution of opponnents, political discrimination on all walks of life, provocators and brute force were used to disband political conventions. Before that, there was the Season (????) where Leftist betrayed their Jewish brothers of the resistance, reported them to the British occupation ragime to be hanged at the Gallows! Next was the Altalena, which your St. Rabin holds prime resonsibilty. St. Rabin was clearly moved by his political hate. He was a communist back then. All full Stalinist red back then. Don't forget Rabin's tyranical mother, Red Rosa. Rabin's role moder, Yitzchak Sade, was among the communist revolutionaries stroming the Czar winter palace at St. Petersburg.

There we go again with the distortion.
I didn't say the left wing is never wrong and never engages in immoral means to get its political agenda. I explicitly stated that the extreme left, people like udi Adiv, have hurt Israel's security. But the fact remains: there was never an leftist underground terror movement that used violence. "political persecution" is not the same. No Israeli right wing political leader was ever assassinated. period.

Here's another difference for ya: Leftists acknowledge when their side is using wrongful immoral and/or illegal actions. I am yet to hear a rightist saying the same.

I don't agree. Israel is on course of creating our own Red brigades or Red Army terror cells, who political assimilations are their bread and butter.
Dream on. will never happen in Israel.

Margalit HarShaffi was a perfect example of political persecution, and a stain on our democracy.
Margalit HarShaffi is the epitome of right wing over piousness. First they all shout "Rabin should be killed" and show pictures of him in Nazi uniforms, their Rabbis issue Din Rodef, their political leaders use inciteful rhetoric, then they act all surprised when some stupid a** takes their words face value.

Thoughts do not kill, words do.

[ygalg1]

sharonbn for a guy visiting ummah forum you should know better it is lost attempt for building a normal relations.

Muslims have their doctrine which you and me have no right to exist by it except if been convert to be a Muslim.

Are you willing to live as a Muslim in the name of peace?

[sharonbn]

sharonbn for a guy visiting ummah forum you should know better it is lost attempt for building a normal relations.

Muslims have their doctrine which you and me have no right to exist by it except if been convert to be a Muslim.

Are you willing to live as a Muslim in the name of peace?



There is no such doctrine.
in fact, for centuries, Jews have lived in peace in Muslim states. Spanish Jewry golden age was under Muslim rule. It ended when the Christians conquered Spain. Of course, the Israeli-Arab conflict has stained these relations and many Arabs (incl' Christian Arabs) hate Israel today. This is also true the other way around. but there is no "doctrine" to convert all Jews to Islam or vice versa.

AFAIK, Christian evangelism wishes to see all Jews converted, once they all live in Israel.

[ygalg1]

בוודאי שיש, תורתם קיימת 1400 שנה. שלום לא שרר בנינו דאז ולא עכשיו

אכן נתנו לנו לחיות בקרבתם איך כמו בכל מקום היינו השוליים והזכויות משולים לזכיותיו של כבש.

אתה כנראה לא קראת את תגובתו של היסטוריה בפורום אומה

היום זה השתנה וגלש לטווחים יותר רחבים בניגוד מן העבר הם יותר ניחושים בתורתם כפי שלא היו קודם, הפנאטיות אצלם עלתה דרגה.

אתה בשבילם עוד כלי ניצול לאינטרסים שלהם, ברגע שיושמו כולן אתה משול למת.

הנוצרים עשו זאת בעבר איך מיתנו את עצמם כיום. הסיבה שהם לא יכלו יותר להתגונן כנגד טענות כמו אז, וזאת בגלל הקדמה לכן יש רבים שנוטשים את תורתם. אין להם את אותו הכוח.

לעומת זאת המוסלמים השתכללו ועושים זאת יום, יום בכדי לשייף את תורתם ולכל טענה יש להם תשובה. והם מאוחדים אם כי לא פוליטית איך בדת הם גוף אחד וזה מה שמאיים עלינו כל הזמן וימשיך ויתפרץ ומי שיהיה אשם זה אתה. כי אתה הוזהרת ובחרת להתעלם. הם לא משוחדים בטכנולוגיה ובקדמה הם לימודי סבל ומאומנים למות ללא שום היסוס. ממליץ לך להיות יותר קשוב למה שהם אומרים ומה תורתם אומרת עלינו.

שלום לא מעניין אותם הם רוצים לשרת את אללה ולעשות כרצונו. וכרצונו ע"פ גרסתם כוללת השמדת העם היהודי.

תקרא את הנבואה המתקרבת שלהם ומה היא כוללת.

[sharonbn]

ygalg1

Despite the name, this is not an Israeli forum and is not intended for Hebrew discussion. You should write your posts in English, so that everyone can read and respond. You wouldn't like it if they wrote in Arabic at Ummah, would you?

and to the point: I believe you are mixing two separate concepts: religion and fanaticism. Islam does not advocate the elimination or conversion of all Jews. The problem is religious fanaticism. and that is a problem regardless of the specific religion. Jewish fanatics are dangerous just as Christian and Muslims ones. in fact, fanaticism and extremism is dangerous in all areas of life.

I feel closer and certainly more comfortable among moderate religious people then extreme secular ones.

Moderation is the key to humane and long lasting life.

[KettleWhistle]

There is no such doctrine.
in fact, for centuries, Jews have lived in peace in Muslim states.

Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

Jews were always second-class citizens in Muslim states, with the only exception of those who lived within the Ottoman Empire under Turks. Other than that, they had to smile and thank those Muslims who spit in their face.

And here is what the people you support have to say:

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world...the Jews are a virus like AIDS hitting humankind...Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts....Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews but what the Jews did to Germany. True, the Germans killed and burned Jews but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy…. " - Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis, PA's TV Chief, May 13, 2005, Gaza


The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to dismiss the head of Palestinian Television over the airing of a live sermon from a Gaza Mosque delivered by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis which was filled with antisemitic attacks and denials of the Holocaust.


During the sermon, in the presence of uniformed Palestinian Authority police, the Sheik also asserted that God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews, and that God has also predetermined that Christian-Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.


"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Mahmoud Abbas," charged Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Wiesenthal Center.

[ygalg1]

ygalg1

Despite the name, this is not an Israeli forum and is not intended for Hebrew discussion. You should write your posts in English, so that everyone can read and respond. You wouldn't like it if they wrote in Arabic at Ummah, would you?

and to the point: I believe you are mixing two separate concepts: religion and fanaticism. Islam does not advocate the elimination or conversion of all Jews. The problem is religious fanaticism. and that is a problem regardless of the specific religion. Jewish fanatics are dangerous just as Christian and Muslims ones. in fact, fanaticism and extremism is dangerous in all areas of life.

I feel closer and certainly more comfortable among moderate religious people then extreme secular ones.

Moderation is the key to humane and long lasting life.

Apology in advance

The key does not fit to there door you going to have to break it through

[minusthejihad]

Leftists will not use or condone violence even if it aids their end.

That's just because they are wussies, but everyone knows that anyway.

[ygalg1]

<edited by moderator>

if you won't wake up well it is on your head

[KettleWhistle]

Leftists do condone violence. That is the violence against their own, while yelling and screaming against applying any violence to people who hurt Jews and Israel. And let's not forget that the Israeli left initially rose to prominence on the blood of their political opponents.

[FOGOMAINS]

בוודאי שיש, תורתם קיימת 1400 שנה. שלום לא שרר בנינו דאז ולא עכשיו

אכן נתנו לנו לחיות בקרבתם איך כמו בכל מקום היינו השוליים והזכויות משולים לזכיותיו של כבש.

אתה כנראה לא קראת את תגובתו של היסטוריה בפורום אומה

היום זה השתנה וגלש לטווחים יותר רחבים בניגוד מן העבר הם יותר ניחושים בתורתם כפי שלא היו קודם, הפנאטיות אצלם עלתה דרגה.

אתה בשבילם עוד כלי ניצול לאינטרסים שלהם, ברגע שיושמו כולן אתה משול למת.

הנוצרים עשו זאת בעבר איך מיתנו את עצמם כיום. הסיבה שהם לא יכלו יותר להתגונן כנגד טענות כמו אז, וזאת בגלל הקדמה לכן יש רבים שנוטשים את תורתם. אין להם את אותו הכוח.

לעומת זאת המוסלמים השתכללו ועושים זאת יום, יום בכדי לשייף את תורתם ולכל טענה יש להם תשובה. והם מאוחדים אם כי לא פוליטית איך בדת הם גוף אחד וזה מה שמאיים עלינו כל הזמן וימשיך ויתפרץ ומי שיהיה אשם זה אתה. כי אתה הוזהרת ובחרת להתעלם. הם לא משוחדים בטכנולוגיה ובקדמה הם לימודי סבל ומאומנים למות ללא שום היסוס. ממליץ לך להיות יותר קשוב למה שהם אומרים ומה תורתם אומרת עלינו.

שלום לא מעניין אותם הם רוצים לשרת את אללה ולעשות כרצונו. וכרצונו ע"פ גרסתם כוללת השמדת העם היהודי.

תקרא את הנבואה המתקרבת שלהם ומה היא כוללת.




Translation needed :D

[goliath]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle]Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

K.W. this text is kind of weapon with a double edge...
Slandering ,slandering ,it remain always something.....
In the brain of the reader.......Agree?

[ygalg1]

Translation needed :D

Sure there is. Their doctrine, exist over 1400 years.

There was no peace exist between us not then and not now.

Yes they let us live among them. But like in any place we were fringe. Our rights were comparable to the sheep rights.

You have not read History comments on ummah forum.

Present day its change and slide to broaden ranges. In contrast from the past they became more determine in their doctrine like it never was before, their fanaticism up to a high rank.

You for them no more then a tool to serve their interests, in the moment all these will be implemented. You are good as dead

The Christians tried the same in the past, today they became moderate the reason for that cause they incapable to defend them self against claims as before, thanks to modernism this is why many abandon from this doctrine. They lost their power.

In contrast with Muslims they got perfected and they practice every each day to sharpen their doctrine knowledge to any claim they got an answer. They united however not politically but as concern to religion they are one body.

That what’s threat us all the time. And it will continue so until it burst and who will be blame for that, it is you! cause you been warn yet decide to ignore. They are not bribed by tech and modernisms they learned suffer and trained to die without hesitate.

Recommend you to be more attentive to what they say and what their doctrine say about us.

Peace does not appeal them. They want to serve Allah and his will. And in his will in their version included annihilation of the Jews.

Read their coming prophecy to be carried out and what it’s contain.

[KettleWhistle]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle]Ignorance upon ignorance upon more ignorance upon self-hatred.

K.W. this text is kind of weapon with a double edge...
Slandering ,slandering ,it remain always something.....
In the brain of the reader.......Agree?
No, I don't agree. A double-edged sword is a lousy weapon and presenting reality as it is, isn't slander.

[Gilgamesh]

...

[FOGOMAINS]

Sure there is. Their doctrine, exist over 1400 years.

There was no peace exist between us not then and not now.

Yes they let us live among them. But like in any place we were fringe. Our rights were comparable to the sheep rights.

You have not read History comments on ummah forum.

Present day its change and slide to broaden ranges. In contrast from the past they became more determine in their doctrine like it never was before, their fanaticism up to a high rank.

You for them no more then a tool to serve their interests, in the moment all these will be implemented. You are good as dead

The Christians tried the same in the past, today they became moderate the reason for that cause they incapable to defend them self against claims as before, thanks to modernism this is why many abandon from this doctrine. They lost their power.

In contrast with Muslims they got perfected and they practice every each day to sharpen their doctrine knowledge to any claim they got an answer. They united however not politically but as concern to religion they are one body.

That what’s threat us all the time. And it will continue so until it burst and who will be blame for that, it is you! cause you been warn yet decide to ignore. They are not bribed by tech and modernisms they learned suffer and trained to die without hesitate.

Recommend you to be more attentive to what they say and what their doctrine say about us.

Peace does not appeal them. They want to serve Allah and his will. And in his will in their version included annihilation of the Jews.

Read their coming prophecy to be carried out and what it’s contain.










Thanks for the translation. Printed it to study it (old-fashioned :)

[goliath]

[QUOTE=KettleWhistle][QUOTE=goliath]
No, I don't agree. A double-edged sword is a lousy weapon and presenting reality as it is, isn't slander.

presenting reality as it is ....in general or on this forum....?....

The basic little difference is in my Jewish opinion this one :

I accept some remark if it came from a Jew , but if that person is not defined or (undefined) as a Jew ,I do consider , his so call objective analyse as an voluntarily offensive one .....or as an rash act ,or worse..
And lousy , seems to be a not necessary adjective ...not very classy...
Using that kind of adjective , put the dirt only on the person who is using it...

[ygalg1]

Thanks for the translation. Printed it to study it (old-fashioned :)

be my guest

[Gilgamesh]

NewsGuy and other moderators. The poster Sharonbn STILL accuses me with accomplicement with Rabins murder, on the basis of my ideological affilation (to the center-right Israeli politics). When I've commented on it, Sharonbn simply deleted my comments instead of answering them.

I do hope You'll take care of it. Sharonbn drifts toward the margions of common sense and fairness.

So if you ask me if you took part in Rabin's assignation, the answer is I don't know.

Sharonbn, if you DARE to delete this message, I'll simply post it all over the place, the and time again exponantialy. So watch it!

[Ophra]

July/August 1999

Israel: A Sharply Divided Society on the Brink of a Cultural Civil War

By Allan C. Brownfeld

The election victory of Ehud Barak as Israel’s new prime minister has caused many observers in the U.S., in Israel and in the Arab world to hope that the peace process will once again move forward.

Exactly how forthcoming the new Barak government will be, of course, remains to be seen. And while the future course of the peace process remains uncertain, what seems clear is the fact that Israeli society is sharply divided over fundamental issues and appears to be on the brink of a cultural civil war.

Stanley Greenberg, the pollster who has served both President Clinton and Mr. Barak, has worked in many countries and was struck by the depth of disagreement on fundamental questions in Israel. Even in South Africa, he said, there was no basic discord over the nature of the state once apartheid ended and democracy was introduced. “But in Israel, on religious–secular issues, on security–peace issues, and on land issues, a range of groups sees that losing the election threatens their way of life,” he said.

Many Israeli voters, for example, were Russian-speaking immigrants who arrived this decade from the former Soviet Union. Angry at the neglect of the previous Labor Party government, they voted 2 to 1 for Netanyahu in 1996. This placed them in a coalition with Likud’s ultra-Orthodox allies. Their rights of residency, marriage and funeral arrangements were in the hands of the Interior Ministry, controlled by members of the ultra-Orthodox Shas Party. Because a significant number of the new immigrants are married to non-Jews, their children are not considered Jews by the Orthodox and, as a result, cannot marry in Israel or be buried there.

“When the Interior Ministry doesn’t recognize a member of one of our families as a Jew, it really hurts,” said Michael Raif, a Russian immigrant who is deputy mayor of Rishon LeZion, Israel’s fourth largest city. In some cases, he said, the obstacles posed by the Interior Ministry have caused immigrants to return to the former Soviet Union. These tensions drove many Russian immigrants to turn away from Netanyahu and cast their votes for Barak.



[Deleted copyright violation. Please only post relevant excerpts of copyright articles]

[Gilgamesh]

July/August 1999

Israel: A Sharply Divided Society on the Brink of a Cultural Civil War

By Allan C. Brownfeld

Israel will not be able to stand this way before an enemy or confront the difficult challenge of peace…Years after the assassination [of Yitzhak Rabin] we have learned nothing and forgiven nothing; we are in exactly the same place. This is a nation that is not even capable of mourning together.”


I am sorry to dissappoint you, but there is an effective Taboo in Israel against a civil war. Civil war was a factor speeding our collapse before empirial Rome.

Since we Jews have lost our sovereignity, we made the debate a sport and the political struggle a national interest for the last two thousand years. We are on the brink of cultural war for half of our national existance. Some more friction means absolutly nothing.

I am appauled by your choise to jump the band wagen of defamation of religious jews at all costs, instead of focusing on the real issues of curroptions of the far left and the goverment. Israel current string or curroption scandles got nothing to do with religious jews.

On the other hand I do reject the on going arrangement that exist with the Jewish Orthodox society in Israel, but "cultural war" serves no purpose. Transformation in Orthodox society exists although slow. We have to encourge thier change instead of "taking arms" against it.

I suppose it's all boils down to electoral interests and Democracies Achiles heel. You support the Arabs who will vote for far left parties, while you hate the Orthodox who vote to Zionist right and Religious parties (who often hold right wing ideas regaurding the conflict).

[Gilgamesh]

[b]Can a society in which a large bloc of voters seek to replace the civil law mandated by a political democracy with religious law, and are willing to use violence when its desires are thwarted, maintain its identity as a state which is both Jewish and democratic? You (or Mr. Brownfeld) have yet to prove such a block exists!
Religious Jews exist, and they do wish to see Israel more religious, but how can one jump into conclusion they are willing to do violance? or that they are a majority within religous society? Or that they are poised to replace civil law entirely?

[quite] Can such a divided society avoid a cultural civil war? [/quote] There is no real divid, just different people with different oppinions about the shape of ideal society. Let a thousand flowers bloom slogan seems to have no affect in matters concerning your crusade against religous society.

[b]Can it move forward toward a genuine peace with its neighbors? Religous society in Israel has nothing to do with the absance of peace. Arabs prefer war reguardless of political situation in Israel. The left is self delluding if it thinks itself to be less hated by the Arabs then the right. Arabs, like any other haters, do not reward collaboration.

These are the questions which Israelis, Israel’s friends throughout the world, and its Arab neighbors are asking. I don't believe the Arabs are concerning themselves with such matters. It's stupid to think they are.

[quote]The most recent election has not made the answer any more clear. Likud took power, Terror took a down turn, and the left still eats it's heart out.

The failur of the disengagement plan which the left swallowed hook line and sinker, would only further foul the smell of the left by Israeli voters.

[Ophra]

"Talking with Jewish Extremists"

In these excerpts from her 2003 book, Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill, Jessica Stern, a leading expert on terrorism, recounts her conversations with two members of the Temple Mount Faithful, a messianic group of Jewish extremists who are followers of the teachings of Rabbi Kahane and who seek to destroy the Muslim holy sites built where the Jewish Temples once stood. They are also dedicated to expanding Israel's borders to encompass the entire biblical Israel. Stern, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, spent four years interviewing extremist members of three religions: Christians, Jews and Muslims.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/


"Days of Rage"

This March 2005 Jerusalem Report article by Leslie Susser examines what might be coming in the struggle over Ariel Sharon's plan to remove all Jewish settlers from Gaza and from four settlements in the northern West Bank starting in July 2005. Are right-wing opponents exaggerating when they warn Sharon's plan will lead to a "civil war?" Susser looks at the Kahanists actively leading the opposition, those Israelis ideologically aligned with them, and the three major strategies Israeli authorities expect their opponents to adopt. She also assesses the potential cracks in the solidarity of settler opposition to Sharon's plan.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

Terrorist Groups

This page of The Council on Foreign Relations site on terrorism links to the page "Kach, Kahane Chai" which offers background on these two Israeli terror groups, including their roots in the teachings of Rabbi Meir Kahane, their links to terrorist attacks, whether they were involved in the 1995 assassination of Yitshak Rabin, their U.S. supporters and their status in Israel.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/


On Assassinations and Attempted Assasinations, and Yigal Amir

An article offering the views of Binjamin Zev Kahane concerning the assassination of Yitzak Rabin and Rabin's killer,Yigal Amir. Binjamin, the son of Rabbi Meir Kahane, took up his father's mantle after the rabbi was assassinated. Binjamin himself was assassinated in Israel in 2000. More of his political commentary can be found elsewhere on this Kahane site. And while the main page of this site notes it is "being reconstructed," the "category" scroll bar on the top right links to a range of selections including a photo gallery, biography of Kahane and more by and about him.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

U.S. List of Known Kahanist Groups and Aliases

This list is from Presidential Executive Order 13224: "Blocking Property and Prohibiting Transactions With Persons Who Commit, Threaten to Commit, Or Support Terrorism." (Sept. 2001)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

Kach, Kahane Chai - International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism

The Institute for Counterterrorism is a research institute dealing with solutions to international terrorism. The "Arab-Israeli Conflict" link at the top of this site links to "Terrorist Organization Profiles" which collects background articles and documents on the Kahane Movement and its offshoots.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/extreme/

[Ophra]

Writing is on The Wall For Sharon, Settlers Warn

Hebron - "Sharon, Lily is waiting for you." The message being spray-painted around Israel contains menace: Lily, Ariel Sharon's wife, died of lung cancer in 2000; now hardline Jewish opponents of the prime minister are willing him to join her.

The alternative version of the graffito - "Sharon, Rabin is waiting for you" - is a more direct threat. It refers to Yitzhak Rabin, the former prime minister who was assassinated in 1995 in protest at his moves towards making peace with the Palestinians.

Rabin's assassin, Yigal Amir, is one of two poster boys for Israel's extreme right, a group estimated to number several thousand who mostly live in West Bank settlements. The other is Baruch Goldstein who died, in the eyes of a minority of Israelis, in glory after killing 29 Palestinians as they prayed in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron.

Both represent the pinnacle of Jewish violence, an undercurrent which is mostly submerged but is expected to re-emerge in opposition to the Israeli government's plan to withdraw from its settlements in the Gaza Strip in July.

Barely a day goes past without Israeli newspapers reporting on the threat to the government from the extreme right. These threats are taken seriously by the Israeli authorities and the Jewish division of the internal security agency, the Shin Bet.

The Israeli right believes that the state of Israel should have its biblical borders. For some that means from the Euphrates in Iraq to the Nile in Egypt, but as an absolute minimum it should consist of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Many also want all Palestinians to be deported.

For them Mr Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza is a religious crime which should be stopped by any means.

Noam Federman, a polite and friendly man who is currently under partial house arrest in a small enclave of deeply religious settlers in the centre of Hebron, places a stone - a Jewish mark of commemoration - on Goldstein's grave before speaking of Mr Sharon's crimes.

Mr Federman insists he is against violence and law-breaking, but adds that he would not prevent or condemn anyone else from stopping the evacuation of the Jewish settlements in Gaza. "The Sharon government is criminal. It has crossed all the red lines. No one should expect their opponents to behave differently. It's not about legality, it's about morality. I follow God's law," he says.

If he became aware of a person, such as Goldstein, who planned to commit an attack, he says he would not alert the authorities. "I do not work for the police or the Shin Bet," he says.

Since 2002, Mr Federman has either been in detention or under full or partial house arrest. He has been accused of complicity in attacks on Palestinians and the planting of a bomb near a Palestinian school in Jerusalem.

He denies involvement and prosecutors have not been able to mount a substantial case against him. However judges have agreed that he represents an adequate threat to law and order to have his freedom curtailed.

His associates take the same tone, paying lip service to the law, but rejecting the government as illegal, and endorsing extreme acts in opposition to disengagement.

The extreme right in Israel is not a single grouping. Many of the groups inspired by Rabbi Meir Kahane have been outlawed for the their racist ideology, but their unofficial label is "Kahanists".

So far their actions against disengagement have been little more than civil disobedience and intimidation, but many Israelis fear a second Goldstein or Amir.

Baruch Marzel formed Kach after the assassination of Kahane in New York in 1990. Disengagement from Gaza, he says, is as serious a crime as the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews.

"We have had one Holocaust. These things were passed in a democratic way and we paid a high price. Oslo was passed in a democratic way and we paid dearly.

"The disengagement plan was promoted by a corrupt prime minister with a corrupt family, by a corrupt cabinet in a corrupt way."

The government, he says, has no right to take Jews away from the land that was granted to them by God.

"We are loyal to what God wants. We are loyal to the demands of the land of Israel and we are not willing to give up one inch. We will stop Sharon one way or the other."

Mr Marzel foresees a split in the Jewish nations between what he sees as leftwingers and the religious. He is confident that the religious, with their high birth rate (he has nine children), will take over Israel.

"We have kids while the leftists have cats and puppies. The next generation is ours, no doubt. The question is what damage will they do before we can take over," he says. "We cannot be Jewish and be part of something that goes against God. I am willing to do anything I can to stop this.

"This is worse than killing my kids or raping my daughters," he adds.

Mr Federman agrees and says he is not concerned about the outbreak of a civil war among the Jews. "This is already a civil war," he says.

Source: The Guardian

[Ophra]

Israel weighs possible crackdown on Jewish extremists

By MARGARET COKER
Cox News Service
Thursday, February 24, 2005

JERUSALEM — A recent note addressed to the wife of Israel's defense minister warned: "We will wreak our revenge against you and your children." Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the chief recipient of such mail, received at least one that declared: "Death to traitors."

In a country that a decade ago lost a prime minister to a Jewish ultranationalist assassin, the disclosure that Israeli cabinet members are receiving an increasing number of threats has sent shockwaves through the nation as the government prepares to withdraw troops and Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip.

On Sunday, parliament approved legislation needed to dismantle the Gaza settlements, an action expected to take place this summer. Some opponents of the "disengagement" plan have vowed to stop it even if it costs them their lives.

Israel's intelligence agencies say that they have no evidence of specific plots against Sharon or other government leaders.

But tensions are high.

An outspoken settler leader, Itamar Ben Gvir, has organized violent demonstrations and made provocative statements.

"We will fight with all the power we have," Ben Gvir told a news conference last week. "This country will bear witness to an unprecedented uprising and the public will finally begin to understand what is really going on."

Politicians say it's time to take pre-emptive measures against known Jewish extremists.

"Wake up before it is too late," Dalia Rabin-Pelossof, the daughter of slain leader Yitzhak Rabin, urged in a recent newspaper commentary. "If we don't do enough now to stop the deterioration, we once again will see the terrible spectacle of a prime minister assassinated."

Rabin was killed by a Jewish assassin in 1995 after his attempts to make peace with the Palestinians and cede land to them in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war.

Polls show that more than 70 percent of Israelis support Sharon's disengagement plan. The vocal minority against the Gaza pullout maintain that the policy contradicts God's will for the Jewish people, the biblical promise of a "Greater Israel."

The largest Jewish settler advocacy group, the Yesha Council, advocates civil disobedience to halt the removal of Gaza's roughly 8,000 settlers. But Yesha says it does not condone violence against soldiers or police.

The Shin Bet security agency, Israel's equivalent to the FBI, fears that some Israeli right-wing fringe groups won't be so measured in their response to disengagement moving ahead.

Avi Dichter, the head of the agency, has said he believes plans could be afoot to sabotage the country's utilities, blow up Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque, which is Islam's third-holiest shrine, or even assassinate officials in charge of the planned Gaza withdrawal.

Sharon has asked Shin Bet to prepare recommendations for employing the country's administrative detention law against Jewish extremists.

The law allows the government to hold suspects for an unlimited period of time without bringing charges. It is frequently used to arrest Palestinians — of the 7,500 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, around 860 of them are under administrative detention, according to figures cited in December by B'Tselem — but has rarely been used against Jewish citizens.

Gideon Ezra, the government minister for public security, said the law should be used liberally and immediately.

"These people give instructions in closed meetings and there's nothing you can do about it," Ezra told Israel Radio, referring to the Jewish fringe groups. "The only way to deal with them is to put them in administrative detention. I don't like it, but I think we are going through a difficult period, and I don't want clashes."

Ezra said Ben Gvir would be a leading candidate for administrative detention. The Shin Bet is expected to complete its policy recommendation next week.

Ben Gvir said he organized anti-disengagement protests in Jerusalem earlier this month during which demonstrators injured 30 police officers.

"This fellow has lost all understanding of what is permitted by the law," Ezra said.


The agency has already identified two other far-right activists who could be targeted in a crackdown.

Ben Gvir, Noam Federman and Baruch Marzel live in settlements in Hebron, one of the largest Palestinian cities in the West Bank. They are followers of slain Jewish extremist leader Meir Kahane, whose political party was outlawed in Israel in the early 1980s because of its racist tenets.

Ben Gvir and Marzel have never been charged with politically motivated crimes.

The Shin Bet arrested Federman in 2003 on charges of helping to plan and organize a foiled terrorist attack at a Palestinian girls' school. He was subsequently convicted on lesser violations and is under house arrest. He is not prohibited from meeting colleagues or talking to the media. He reportedly has hosted the brothers of Yigal Amir, Rabin's murderer, at his home.

Federman, when asked by Israeli television in an interview last week if he considered violence against Israeli politicians legitimate, replied: "I didn't take out Rabin. I didn't weep when he died, but I didn't wipe him out."

He also said that if someone "takes out" Sharon it wouldn't be him or his friends.

Margaret Coker can be reached at mcoker(at)coxnews.com

[minusthejihad]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?

[Gilgamesh]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?
Ophra reminds me that iconic housewife, who sees a tiny little mouse and automaticly jumps from the chair to the kitchen table screaming her lungs out, till all the family and neighbors come over, togather with the police, fire fighters and an armored infentry brigade.

[Ophra]

Are you going to bark all day little doggy, or are you going to bite?


?????.... you want more ....okaaaaaaaaay :D

[Ophra]

Ophra reminds me that iconic housewife, who sees a tiny little mouse and automaticly jumps from the chair to the kitchen table screaming her lungs out, till all the family and neighbors come over, togather with the police, fire fighters and an armored infentry brigade.

:D

Pssssst ... your spelling sucks ;)

[Ophra]

Settlers, then and now

In the late 1920s several hundred devoted far-Left Zionist pioneers packed up and left Mandatory Palestine for good. They were members of an organization called Gdud Ha'avoda (Labor Battalions), founded in 1921. During the six years of its existence they reached a maximum number of 700, though over 2,000 passed through their ranks until their disbandment. All of this at a time when the entire nascent Yishuv numbered barely 100,000. During those years, they undertook extraordinary pioneering labor projects: paving roads, drying out swamps, and blasting stone quarries.

The reason those hundreds deserted was red-hot ideological fighting over proposals to turn the battalion into a country-wide, kibbutz-like workers' commune.

The majority preferred to settle down in permanent farm settlements like Ein Harod and Tel Yosef. But a minority – who took this as a sign of "bourgeoisification" – left in disgust for Stalin's Soviet Union, where they set up communes in the Crimea. They soon fell victim to the paranoid dictator's purges.

What reminded me of this near-forgotten chapter in early Zionist history is its analogy to aspects of today's emotion-laden debate surrounding the removal of the Gush Katif settlers.

That – and the fact that my mother was a member of the Gdud majority for several years. She organized a group of eight female pioneers who worked at the Nur Match Factory in solidly Arab Acre. She left – not for ideological reasons and not to the Soviet Union, but to New York City – to marry my father, produce me and return to Palestina, Eretz Israel, post-haste.

The members of the Gdud were what sociologists might classify as a "service elite," a self-proclaimed group putting itself at the disposal of "the people" or its declared mission. Later on this sense of purpose was called halutziyut.

Independent Israel would never have arisen had it not been for this sense of service to the Zionist cause imbued in the kibbutz movement, a successor to the Gdud Ha'avoda. This is manifest from the kibbutz movement's disproportionate role in the settlement of the country, in the establishment of the Israel Defense Forces, in bearing the brunt of the casualties in Israel's founding wars, and in immigrant absorption.

After several decades of mind-boggling achievements in nation-building, many burnt-out third- and fourth-generation kibbutz members turned into self-serving elites concerned more with their own material success than with furthering the Zionist mission.

MANY OF the founding members of the national-religious Gush Emunim movement also conceived of themselves as a service elite. It is fair to doubt, however, if that is also true of the bulk of Gush Katif settlers, many of whom have built posh lives on the backs of exploited Palestinian and Thai workers.

In last weekend's Jerusalem Post UpFront magazine, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin wrote that "we... the proud members of the settler movement – must search our souls. It seems that we have not succeeded in winning the minds and hearts of the majority of Israel's citizens. Could it be that by insisting on ritual criteria for accepting residents in most of the settlements, and by our general silence regarding most issues adversely affecting non-observant Israelis, we have alienated ourselves from the majority of our countrymen?"

The answer to Rabbi Riskin's rhetorical question can only be a resounding yes.

It took about four generations for the original vigor of the kibbutz service elite to deteriorate. The national-religious settlers managed to lose theirs in slightly more than one. But that is no justification for bleeding the entire country to provide an entirely unacceptable level of compensation for the displaced settlers.

The level of compensation now being negotiated with the settlers' lawyers is unconscionable. So are proposals for resettling them at the expense of national park areas at Nitzanim. The monumental guilty consciences of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the other bulldozers behind the settlement movement is fully understandable. But the nation as a whole should not be the ones to pay to assuage it.

Displaced settlers should be compensated munificently only if they agree to serve as a service elite by settling where the country needs them most – in the Negev and Galilee or, if politically possible, on the Golan Heights, in the Jordan Rift or in Judea and Samaria. Otherwise they should be compensated only to a level that would return them to the standard of living they enjoyed before moving to Gush Katif.

It is even more important that Orthodox authorities such as Rabbi Riskin take the lead in countering the settlers' threats to mount a major campaign of civil disobedience whose purpose is to destabilize the country and sow disunity in the armed forces.

Sadly, nearly all the rabbis in the settlement movement have, so far, have been backing exactly such a campaign. This can only lead to an intensified hatred for all things religious by the majority of non-observant Israelis.

Source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1115519111902&p=1006953079865

[minusthejihad]

So, some dyslexic people think your name is Aphro

[KettleWhistle]

Did I mention that posting whole articles without copyrights holder's permition is against the rules?

*scrolling down to the delete button*

[minusthejihad]

I must thank you for bolding some paragraphs as I wouldn't care less without them. Except that everytime I read your bold paragraphs, I'm always wondering:

"What is this crazy ___ point?"

[Ophra]

Did I mention that posting whole article without copyrights holder's permition is against the rules?

*scrolling down to the delete button*

Delete all you like KW ..... just proves what I have always said ... that you are a facist ... and that the right-wingers cannot handle the TRUTH .

[Ophra]

I must thank you for bolding some paragraphs as I wouldn't care less without them. Except that everytime I read your bold paragraphs, I'm always wondering:

"What is this crazy ___ point?"

I didn't post them for you son...... there are those that read here that do have some little grey cells up top ;)

[minusthejihad]

you are a facist ... and that the right-wingers cannot handle the TRUTH .

I couldn't get a better quote out of this guy (http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004/11/27/new_mini_moonbat_fits_in_your_sidebar).

Seriously though, how does an Israeli mother of four serving in the IDF end up sounding like a 16 year old American Anarchist at an A.N.S.W.E.R convention?

[Gilgamesh]

:D

Pssssst ... your spelling sucks ;)

And your point is?

Those who left with no real answer, always pick on my typos. It's their ultimate sign for those, for acknowladging my superiority.

[KettleWhistle]

I didn't post them for you son...... there are those that read here that do have some little grey cells up top ;)

I'm sure that you have a very smooth and unwavered layer of these right under your sculcap.

[Ophra]

I couldn't get a better quote out of this guy (http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004/11/27/new_mini_moonbat_fits_in_your_sidebar).

Seriously though, how does an Israeli mother of four serving in the IDF end up sounding like a 16 year old American Anarchist at an A.N.S.W.E.R convention?

FYI I am a mother of five .... three are serving in the IDF the other two are too young (yet) .

Probably because I learnt my English from American volunteers whilst I was volunteer leader on my Kibbutz.
My mother tongue is Hebrew ..... how is your Evrit ????
I was fluent in Arabic by age 8 ... I also get by in Spanish and French. Sorry I don't know Yiddish or Russian... I decided to learn the languages that would do me the most good in this modern world ;)

[Ophra]

And your point is?

Those who left with no real answer, always pick on my typos. It's their ultimate sign for those, for acknowladging my superiority.

It was tit for tat Gilgamesh.... you want to keep up the personal attacks instead of the subject under discussion then go right ahead ... I will be right behind you with a responce.

Ya ya your "superiority" for being right or being wrong ?? ;)

Ditto ... see my sig.

[Gilgamesh]

It was tit for tat Gilgamesh.... you want to keep up the personal attacks instead of the subject under discussion then go right ahead ... I will be right behind you with a responce.

Ya ya your "superiority" for being right or being wrong ?? ;)

Ditto ... see my sig.

Every other single poster here, understood my reference to histeric housewife as a legitimate attack on your ideas, not a personal attack.
I guess you are not as smart as you considered yourself after all, if you couldn't understand my simple post. I hope you could understand this post... if you encounter any difficutly, feel free to ask our help. Me and other posters will be glad to help you out!

[Ophra]

Every other single poster here, understood my reference to histeric housewife as a legitimate attack on your ideas, not a personal attack.
I guess you are not as smart as you considered yourself after all, if you couldn't understand my simple post. I hope you could understand this post... if you encounter any difficutly, feel free to ask our help. Me and other posters will be glad to help you out!

Sure Gilgamesh, sure. :rolleyes:
If you knew anything about Kibbutzim you know there is no such thing as a housewife ... I have worked and studied full time since I was 13. I am not only a wife and mother I run a small business and employ my own staff.
Oh I'm smart Gilgamesh..... I not only understood your personal attack I also debunked every argument you put up against the original poster.... or didn't you read the articles ?... maybe the English was too much for you ??? :)

No thanks .... I need no help from religious right-wingers like yourself .... after all we managed to build this country and defend it against all odds without you.... so what would I need you for on here ???

[Gilgamesh]

Sure Gilgamesh, sure. :rolleyes:
If you knew anything about Kibbutzim you know there is no such thing as a housewife ... I had no idea you are from a kibbutz. But what strikes me odd is the fact you consider it to be a source of pride. I can't understand what seems to be so wonderful for you to be a memeber of disfunctional drugged decadent backwarded values empty society. In israel, all relatively normal Kibbutznics flee as fast and as far as they possibley can.

Modern Kibbutzes, other then selected few, are best associated with convict rehabalitation. Is that you little bussiness? Helping durg addicted gangsters? I think it great!

I have worked and studied full time since I was 13. I am not only a wife and mother I run a small business and employ my own staff. How wonderful for you!!!

Oh I'm smart Gilgamesh..... Smart Kibbutznics vote Likud and live in Herztelia. I guess you ain't one of those, are you?

I not only understood your personal attack I also debunked every argument you put up against the original poster.... ROFL!!! :D ... sorry, you didn't. You just poured huge vollumes of words by AMERICAN (i.e foregin) far left (Jews???) who supply their puny irrlevent ideas with no real facts and much to much empty propaganda to fill up thier ignorance while actualy dealing with American politics, using Israel as a poor analogy.

Yes, people like Marzel or Amir are real and they do exist. It is stupid to consider them main stream in Israel, or to associate them with world domination conspiracies. It is idiotic to consider tiny little mice like them to huge men eating elephants from planet Zog.

Fanning up extrem left Histeria doesn't prove or debunk anything.

Sorry, you debunked nothing. Just gave us the ignorant ideas of some far leftis, nobody realy care what they think.

Had you been realy smart, and just a bit more knowladgeable of you true worth, you'd know one cannot prove an idea, by pasting the ideas of other people. If you choose to do so, first find somebody credible to quote.

or didn't you read the articles ?... maybe the English was too much for you ??? :) Sorry, there is a limit to the amount of nonesense I can take.

No thanks .... I need no help from religious right-wingers like yourself .... after all we managed to build this country and defend it against all odds without you.... so what would I need you for on here ???
I am not religious. I am not anti-religion either. I am your avarage Zionist secular Israeli, with strong roots in Jabotinsikian (secular Revisionist Zionist) ideology, with affiliation to modern conservative ideology and Objectivian philosophy (Ayn Rand). Had I been American, I'd vote Republicans. Had I been British I'd vote Torries. Had I been French I'd move to Israel.

BTW,
Hate to bring it so hard that way, but... Stalin died 52 years ago...
worst: USSR doesn't exist anymore...

[Ophra]

I had no idea you are from a kibbutz. But what strikes me odd is the fact you consider it to be a source of pride. I can't understand what seems to be so wonderful for you to be a memeber of disfunctional drugged decadent backwarded values empty society. In israel, all relatively normal Kibbutznics flee as fast and as far as they possibley can.

Modern Kibbutzes, other then selected few, are best associated with convict rehabalitation. Is that you little bussiness? Helping durg addicted gangsters? I think it great!



ROFL ..... what a load of old revisionist rubbish :D
PS... they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ??????????

Nope ... it's computer related ... thanks for asking.

Oh here I go copying and pasting again ;)..... always thought folks out there would prefer my thinking backed up by others facts ...you might like showing off your "superiority" :rolleyes: by babbling your bull ... but we can't all be like you now can we :.........

Israel Kibbutz and Moshav

The first kibbutz, Deganya, near the Sea of Galilee, was founded in 1910. In addition to the two largest kibbutz federations, HaKibbutz HaMeuhad (the United Kibbutz Movement) and HaKibbutz HaArtzi (the Kibbutz of the Land), there were in 1988 a number of small movements including the agricultural collective settlements of the religious HaKibbutz HaDati, affiliated with the labor wing of the National Religious Party. In 1986 there were 125,700 residents of about 265 kibbutzim, divided among five kibbutz federations. The kibbutz is a collective settlement, originally devoted solely to agriculture, but since the late 1960s, it has included industrial concerns, too. Founded by social democrats, kibbutzim are characterized by the collectivization of labor and capital: the means of production, consumption, and distribution are communally owned and controlled, with considerable emphasis on participatory democracy in the operation of kibbutzim. Education and, in some federations, the rearing of children in age-graded dormitories, are communal as well.

Until the 1980s, the kibbutz and its residents played a largerthan -life role in Israeli society. Kibbutzim embodied the courageous and selfless pioneer who settled the most difficult and dangerous areas to claim them for the Jewish state. They sent the highest proportion of young men to elite units of the army and its officers' corps, and later to positions of responsibility in the Histadrut and the government. If there were a sociopolitical elite in Israel (not an economic one, because members of the kibbutz lived with simplicity), it came from the kibbutzim.

This highly positive image no longer held in 1988 for a number of reasons. First, the kibbutz was to a large extent a victim of its own successes. Its economic success raised the standard of living of the average member into the solid middle or upper middle class. It is difficult to conceive of a rural village with air-conditioned housing, a well-equipped clinic, a large auditorium, and an olympic-sized swimming-pool as a pioneer outpost. Second, the economic success and the expansion of the kibbutz economy has forced it to go outside the community to hire labor--a direct contradiction of its earliest canons. Third, the membership of kibbutzim has been overwhelmingly Ashkenazi. Often the labor hired, if not Arab, consisted of Oriental Jews who resided in development towns near the kibbutz. Oriental Jews complained that the only time they saw members of kibbutzim as near equals was when the members came to town just before national elections to lobby the Orientals for votes for the left-of-center parties aligned with the kibbutzim. The turn of the mass of the Israeli electorate to the right wing was both a reflection and a cause of the loss of social prestige for the kibbutz, which has suffered a relative loss of influence in the centers of power in Israel. Nevertheless, the kibbutzim still contributed to Israel's economy and sociopolitical elite out of proportion to their number.

The first moshav was established in the Jezreel, or Yizreel, Valley (Emeq, Yizreel is also seen as the Valley of Esdraelon in English) in 1921. In 1986 about 156,700 Israelis lived and worked on 448 moshavim, the great majority divided among eight federations. There are two types of moshavim, the more numerous (405) moshavim ovdim, and the moshavim ufim. The former relies on cooperative purchasing of supplies and marketing of produce; the family or household is, however, the basic unit of production and consumption. The moshav ufi form is closer to the collectivity of the kibbutz: although consumption is family-or household-based, production and marketing are collective. Unlike the moshavim ovdim, land is not allotted to households or individuals, but is collectively worked.

Because the moshav form retained the family as the center of social life and eschewed bold experiments with communal child-rearing or equality of the sexes, it was much more attractive to traditional Oriental immigrants in the 1950s and early 1960s than was the more communally radical kibbutz. For this reason, the kibbutz has remained basically an Ashkenazi institution, whereas the moshav has not. On the contrary, the so-called immigrants' moshav (moshav olim) was one of the most-used and successful forms of absorption and integration of Oriental immigrants, and it allowed them a much steadier ascent into the middle class than did life in some development towns.

Like the kibbutzim, moshavim since 1967 have relied increasingly on outside--particularly Arab--labor. Financial instabilities in the early 1980s have hit many moshavim hard, as has the problem of absorbing all the children who might wish to remain in the community. By the late 1980s, more and more moshav members were employed in nonagricultural sectors outside the community, so that some moshavim were coming to resemble suburban or exurban villages whose residents commute to work. In general moshavim never enjoyed the elite status accorded to kibbutzim; correspondingly they have not suffered a decline in prestige in the 1970s and 1980s.

Source:http://www.photius.com/countries/israel/society/israel_society_kibbutz_and_moshav.html

[Gilgamesh]

PS... they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ?????????? What you call "preference" I call curroptio and nepotism. Over all, we Right wingers and Religious Zionist are on the front line, manning the elite army units and the frontier towns and villages.

Nope ... it's computer related ... thanks for asking. Painting old computers may send a powerful ecological message for recycling for young crimminal youth! Good job!

Oh here I go copying and pasting again ;)..... always thought folks out there would prefer my thinking backed up by others facts ... Facts? I rather you look at the dictionary first, learn the defenition for the word fact, before you use it out of hand like that! It make you look silly, you don't want to look silly do you?

You have yet to come up with facts. Leftists are known to ignore or by pass hurting issues, like reality for instance.

you might like showing off your "superiority" :rolleyes: by babbling your bull ... but we can't all be like you now can we :......... Wake up and smell the coffie! We are on top (sort off), your people NOT! We are supperior in any walk of life, our society is metaly healthier and advancing. Your done and out. Kibbutzes vanish.

Israel Kibbutz and Moshav

...

Source:http://www.photius.com/countries/israel/society/israel_society_kibbutz_and_moshav.html

I know Isael's history, and your source is out dated, missing many facts and realities.

[Womble]

they still prefer our boys over yours in the Army ... why do you think that is I wonder ??????????
LOL! "Your" boys are neither liked by the army anymore, nor are they eager to serve. It's been a couple of decades since the elite combat units had high percent of kibbutzniks among them. You know who they are made of these days? Religious Zionists, Russian Jews, Ethiopean Jews and the Druze. The kibbutzniks in the army are now divided into two groups: those who are jobniks and those who want to be ones.

[Ophra]

What you call "preference" I call curroptio and nepotism. Over all, we Right wingers and Religious Zionist are on the front line, manning the elite army units and the frontier towns and villages.

BaHaaaaaaaaaaaaHoHoHo .... more like stoning our kids in uniform and spitting on them for speaking Arabic and not wearing kippas . (..you can check out my other posts to get the facts ) Religious Zionist are on the front lines when it comes to sedition and violence against anyone that does not think like they do or disagrees with their ideology. The settlers and the settler movement are a curse on our society .... hopefully Sharon and Bush will cleanse us of their stench soon.

Painting old computers may send a powerful ecological message for recycling for young crimminal youth! Good job!

Most amusing....... but you are wrong again

Leftists are known to ignore or by pass hurting issues, like reality for instance.

Te he .... I'm not a Leftist ... I voted Likud last elections ... I also stated on here previously that if I was American I would be a Republican ..... so your wrong again

Wake up and smell the coffie! We are on top (sort off), your people NOT! We are supperior in any walk of life, our society is metaly healthier and advancing. Your done and out. Kibbutzes vanish.

....... no comment but laughter .

I know Isabel's history, and your source is out dated, missing many facts and realities.

I have lived Israel's history ...... you are out dated and missing many facts and realities .

(PS.... your spelling still sucks )

[Ophra]

LOL! "Your" boys are neither liked by the army anymore, nor are they eager to serve. It's been a couple of decades since the elite combat units had high percent of kibbutzniks among them. You know who they are made of these days? Religious Zionists, Russian Jews, Ethiopean Jews and the Druze. The kibbutzniks in the army are now divided into two groups: those who are jobniks and those who want to be ones.

Yeah right ... another Russian that knows it all :rolleyes:

My husband is a very senior Army officer (you would be surprised) both my sons are Lt. Colonels and career officers ... my father was a General.... so go guard your shopping mall Womble :D

[NewsGuy]

Do you think it would be possible to get this thread back on to its substance? Has any substantive point been made in the first place?

[Gilgamesh]

Do you think it would be possible to get this thread back on to its substance? Has any substantive point been made in the first place?
We are on the topic, NewsGuy. Ophra and Sharonbn convinced there is far right plot to take over Israel and forbid selling pork by law. I think otherwise. Other then couple of celebrity wirdows adored by the inforteiment media for thier fanatic ideas, such a plot is a joke.
I said to Ophra she considered mice to elephants, imagioning mountains and towers floating in the air where none really exsit. So she mentioned I write with typos.

Go figure!

[sharonbn]

Ophra and sharonbn's delusions are backed up by the leftists-gang-controlled Israeli security and inteligence communities which make repeated assassments of the desire and planning of the extreme right (whatever that is, no-one seems to know, probably another lefitst media fabrication) to bomb temple mount as well as their threats to assassinate PM Sharon.

Someone here made the asssessment that the whole story is a media spin (more eloquantly said "Typical Oslo style propaganda") So I brought up the case of PM Rabin's assassination as an example that these guys are serious (we say "with receipts" in Israel ;))

My claim regardng PM Rabin's assassination is that at that time, no one in the shabac and other agencies regard voices from the extreme right with enough seriousness. Moreover, no one in the right wing thought that there should be a limit to protest expressions. No one thought that Rabbis issueing Din Rodef or pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms would lead to an assasination. This is what I refer to when I say that many in the extreme and not-so-extreme right should feel some responsibility for the murder of Rabin. Their rethoric and incitement drove Amir to act. He would not have acted had he known there is no public legitimacy to this act.

It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

[KettleWhistle]

Some angry person mouthing off something about the government, doesn't make the "extreme right wing" responsible for it, and doesn't make his hate mail into a threat from an "extreme right-wing" conspiracy.

[Ophra]

Ophra and sharonbn's delusions are backed up by the leftists-gang-controlled Israeli security and inteligence communities which make repeated assassments of the desire and planning of the extreme right (whatever that is, no-one seems to know, probably another lefitst media fabrication) to bomb temple mount as well as their threats to assassinate PM Sharon.

Someone here made the asssessment that the whole story is a media spin (more eloquantly said "Typical Oslo style propaganda") So I brought up the case of PM Rabin's assassination as an example that these guys are serious (we say "with receipts" in Israel ;))

My claim regardng PM Rabin's assassination is that at that time, no one in the shabac and other agencies regard voices from the extreme right with enough seriousness. Moreover, no one in the right wing thought that there should be a limit to protest expressions. No one thought that Rabbis issueing Din Rodef or pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms would lead to an assasination. This is what I refer to when I say that many in the extreme and not-so-extreme right should feel some responsibility for the murder of Rabin. Their rethoric and incitement drove Amir to act. He would not have acted had he known there is no public legitimacy to this act.

It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

Very well said sharonbn. I completely agree with you .

What I am amazed by is that the extreme right ( whoever they may be ;) ) seem to think that it is only Leftists that are against them.... which is completely untrue. The Army,the security forces,the average man on the street and all moderates from all the parties, except the religious parties, have had their fill of their violence and abuse of our Laws.
Did you see this article on Ynet ??

Wild Wild West

Silent majority should take action in face of anti-pullout protests
By Guy Ronen

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to hell. Have you ever wondered how hell really looks like? Look outside your car window: smoke and fire - burning tires, road spikes, yeshiva students screaming to high heaven in desperation, a young girl in orange attire dancing the Hora (bloodshed is apparently on the way) - and all of this smack in the middle of a highway near you.

Recently the Anti-Terrorism Bureau issued a travel warning urging Israelis to refrain from going to Bolivia. What about Jerusalem and the Tel Aviv area?

The Wild West is here. There is no judge or jury - every man for himself. For us this may be a new reality, but for the yeshiva student and young girl in orange it is a way of life.

Just read attorney Talia Sasson's report on settlement construction, and you'll understand how they think.

These "good fellas" have ignored the country's laws and the government's decisions for some time now; it's just like the recently married far right activist Itamar Ben-Gvir and his wife said: When a state based on halacha (Jewish law) is established here, we will try the prime minister and the rest of the Cabinet members. In the meantime, we'll give you hell.

'We're fed up'

How many of you believed right-wing activists would shut down the country Monday? How many of you actually refrained from traveling on the highways?

Oh please, we said, why would they carry out their threats this time? Police forces are positioned in every intersection!

But we were mistaken.

How did they do it? And where were the police when I was trying to get home after a grueling workday? Good question! But there is another, even more important one: Where the hell were we?

Only four years ago we were petrified when Galilee Arabs shut down the Wadi Ara region; a "fifth column" we called them at the time, and we saw no shame in firing live ammunition at them. Because when the economy suffers and roads are shut down, the protests become a strategic threat.

God forbid we should open fire at the anti-disengagement protestors, but it should be made clear: We cannot remain silent as this "highway intifada" continues.

Perhaps we should block major traffic arteries on the eve of the Sabbath as the religious Jews hurry home? Perhaps we should lock up their schools, or adorn their offices and parties with flags of our own chosen color, a mixture of turquoise, green, and beige, just as they have done to our beaches?

But we are the silent majority, and truth be told, even we are not amused by our own gimmicks.

The question is whether we will remain passive or stand together - police, government, courts, citizens, and the moderate settler leaders - and say to the settlers: We are fed up with you and your gimmicks. Start obeying the law or you will be dealt with as criminals.

Guy Ronen is a news editor at Ynet

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3086546,00.html

[Gilgamesh]

Sharonbn, you accused me on taking part in Rabin's assasination (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=142705&postcount=44). How do you pleed?


It seems that many in the right wing refuse to learn that lesson from history, or worse - wish to see it repeated.

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.

For how long more, will you keep on ignoring the facts reguarding Avishai Raviv and his actions as Shin Beith provocator agent. The scilance of the media over this story is purly political. The state attorny which allowed Avishai Raviv actions, Arebel, promoted to the high court of no justice, in a suspicious and doubtful process.

[KettleWhistle]

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?

They've got to learn that they'll be stereotyped, blamed, persecuted, and used as an excuse to suppress civil liberties anytime they happened to disagree with government's desicions.

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.

None of that was the reason Rabin got killed. It was the fault of his security detail that didn't do their job. Shabak or not, Rabin's policies were highly unpopular and damaging. Every single one of the high-level politicians has someone who wants him/her dead, and would be willing to go the distance. This was the case with Rabin, and a cartoon or a religious nut yelling "kill him" had nothing to do with it.

[sharonbn]

Sharonbn, you accused me on taking part in Rabin's assasination (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=142705&postcount=44). How do you pleed?
Maybe its enough with this stupid thing?
I explained several times what I mean when I accuse the right wing of driving and aiding the murderer of Rabin. I didn't mean you personally so why insist on this childlish accusation? Get back on topic.

You can say I am wrong about my statements regarding the right wing. Fine. but I will hear no more of this stupidity.

What has the right wing has to learn when the right wingers done nothing wrong?
I rest may case.

It was proven beyoned any doubt, the Shabak itself was responsible for all the evil items you accuses the right wing of. The Rabin's pictures, the statements, the cofin ect... All documented provocation initiated by the Shabak (aka Shin Beith, aka GSS). All of this, possibley by Rabin's own orders.
again with the conspiracy theories.... booooring. show some evidence or cease with this, yet another stupidity.

[minusthejihad]

The settlers and the settler movement are a curse on our society .... hopefully Sharon and Bush will cleanse us of their stench soon.

What a sentive caring person, worried about liberties and human rights. I would love it if my mother spoke like a Mullah.

[Ophra]

It can happen again: Nine years since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin

We must admit that nine years since the assassination of Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin, we have not yet laid his ghost to rest.

It is necessary to explain for those who do not know, that Yitzhak Rabin dedicated his life to the service of his country. He fought for the liberation of Jerusalem in 1948. As Chief of Staff, he was responsible for Israel's victory in 1967. He served Israel as Prime Minister in the 70s and was responsible for the brilliant rescue operation in Entebbe. It is necessary to repeat that Rabin chose to give up territory not because he hated settlers or Jews, but because he hated war, and he understood that there could be no Israel and no Zionism without peace, and no Jewish state without a territorial compromise.

It is necessary to explain, because unfortunately there are too many in Israel who really imagine that Yitzhak Rabin was a traitor, some sort of "leftist" anti-Zionist. They do not understand that a father of the Zionist movement was murdered. It took an Arab commentator, Fuad Ajami, to understand that the assassination of Rabin was Israeli national patricide.

The assassination should have been a watershed event in Israeli society, but it was not. Nothing fundamental changed. While many individuals were deeply shocked and re-evaluated their views of Zionism and of our society, society and politics continued to drift in the dangerous direction dictated by the assassin, Yigal Amir, and his small but stubborn group of supporters, and the much larger group that "understood the motives" of Yigal Amir without approving of the method.

The pragmatic Zionism of the founders was coopted by religious Zionism, a contradiction in terms. Zionism is based on the premise that the Jews are a people, and therefore need their own nation-state. Orthodox Jews were originally opposed to Zionism, and insisted that the relation between the land and the Jews was a religious one, a theoretical one, that would be fulfilled in the Heavenly City of Jerusalem brought about by a miraculous Messiah, rather than in an earthbound state made by flesh and blood people like David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and Yitzhak Rabin.

There could be Zionists who are also religious Jews, and those who are Zionists because of their faith, but religious Zionism as an ideology is an oxymoron, and it leads to practical dangers. A religious state has no sanction in the international community. The only salient examples are Iran and Saudi Arabia, neither of which are worthy of emulation A flesh and blood state, unlike a heavenly Messianic one, must make compromises to exist in the real world. World opinion, military feasibility and economics must be taken into consideration when making real-world policy decisions. A messianic state need only follow the dictates of the Messiah or his stand-ins. A state that relies only on God's protection, and on God's word as interpreted by rabbis, is headed for disaster. As the Israeli Knesset headed for a vote on disengagement, orthodox and ultraorthodox parties went to consult their rabbis, like ancient Romans consulting the augurs before a battle. Alas, the omens were unfavorable. The goat had a bad liver, as ascertained by the Rabbis for Greater Israel of the National Religious Party, by Ovadia Yosef of the Shas party and the Council of Torah Sages of United Torah Judaism.

Because we have not laid the ghost of Rabin to rest, the dangers brought home by his murder are still with us and have grown. This time the target is not Yitzhak Rabin of the Labor movement, but the ex-arch-hawk Ariel Sharon. The clash between Sharon and the Frankenstein of fanatic religious Zionism that he and his colleagues have nurtured is inevitable. Any sane politician, no matter what his beliefs, must be a pragmatist in the final analysis. Pragmatism and divine dictates must inevitably clash at some point, and they have. Now, as in 1995, rabbis insist that those who follow the policy of the Israeli government are traitors. One rabbi offered to conduct a medieval Pulsa Di Nura ceremony on PM Ariel Sharon, to cause his demise by magic means. Security experts including GSS (Shabak) chiefs, warn that we are only one step away from an actual planned assassination attempt, and perhaps worse, that there are Jewish groups planning to destroy the mosques on the Temple Mount in order to bring about the last messianic war and the establishment of the third temple.

The question before us is not, unfortunately, whether or not we have continued the legacy of Rabin or respected his memory. We have not. It may well be that we could not have made peace with the Palestinians through no fault of our own, but it is certainly true that we have not made an honest effort. The 100,000 settlers who have accumulated in the West Bank since the assassination of Rabin are proof that we have not chosen the path of peace. The question is not whether or not we have eradicated the pernicious core of the ideology represented by Yigal Amir. We have not Amir prospers in jail. He has a girl friend or wife, Larissa Trimbobler, bride of Frankenstein come to life, and a not inconsiderable following.

In the middle ages people fought and won battles because they had visions. Soldiers marched off to save the Holy Land from the Saracens. The Maid of Orleans fought at the command of the Lord. In some countries in the Middle East, such considerations still prevail. A word from an Iranian Mullah can start a war or build an atom bomb because God wills it. A word from a Hamas Mullah can send a suicide bomber to blow himself and thirty other people to kingdom come. The question is, whether we are building a society like Iran or the Hamas, or whether we are building a modern state. That is, whether Zionism is to remain a modern nationalist movement like those that created the USA, Italy, Germany and modern France, or lapse into a Jewish version of Islamism. That question is being tried right now in the Israeli Knesset, in the vote on Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan, and it will be tried in its implementation. The problem is not to determine whether the policy is correct or not, but whether the policy of our government and the actions of our army will be based on pragmatic considerations, however mistaken, or whether they will be dictated by the word of God as interpreted by rabbis and religious fanatics.

Ami Isseroff

[ Permission given to me by the author to post this here ]

[goliath]

Ami Isseroff , is not discovering America , all that column ful with obvious logical analyse , ...
On 1947 and before learders , father's fondator were quite all with religious influence or conviction , and this remain today ...,
The reminiscence of religion and principle applyed from the beginning , will last till the gov. in charge , needs those voice to stay on the spot....
The main problem , it's how religious can maintain the perenity of Judaism and keep their political influence....as usual....
Concerning the outside Jew , we see the disintegration of the original "ideal" concerning the creation of Israel..( Th.Herzl and the following )
The frustrated are without a doubt ....Religious people and Judaism...
If I recall marriage in Israel must be religious ...this (if is stil the case ) talk by itself.......
What does Ami Isseroff , propose as a solution ?...nothing...
Democracy...kill democracy...Times give a solution to everything....often an unexpected one...

[Ophra]

What does Ami Isseroff , propose as a solution ?...nothing...

On the contrary.... he, like many of us , propose an end to the Settlement movement and stricter laws for those who incite racial and religious hatred.

Thus :

Stop the Momentum of Settlement
Vol. 4 #9. August 20, 2002

"17,000 new settlers this year," crows the Yesha (Judea, Samaria and Gaza) Council advertisement, "Yesha is in a momentum of settlement." Israel Broadcasting Authority allowed this ad, previously banned, but nixed a counter-ad by Peace Now as "political." Settlements are being pushed into the Israeli public consensus.

The Intifada dealt Israeli peace advocates a shattering blow. We cannot offer the hope of peace in return for withdrawal in the near future, because we cannot control the Palestinians and the PNA. "Peace" has become a dirty word. The government has a blank check to perpetuate the occupation and expand the settlement enterprise under the guise of security measures.

However, the case against settlements remains the same. Israel cannot rule three million or more Palestinians against their will. The Palestinians will not go away. Israel must not remain at war with most of its neighbors forever. Israel cannot develop go