should we make peace?

[ygalg1]

http://www.honestreporting.com/images/papoliceheil.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/hezbollahnazis2.jpg
http://www.honestreporting.com/images/heilfatah.jpg
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/truth4.jpg

[NewsGuy]

It would be better for you to post some relevant excerpts from those articles to start the discussion.

[ygalg1]

It would be better for you to post some relevant excerpts from those articles to start the discussion.

pictures are not enough???
what there is to say we are dealing with nazis wear keffiyeh(Bedouin head cover)

[Womble]

pictures are not enough???
what there is to say we are dealing with nazis wear keffiyeh(Bedouin head cover)
But does this mean that all Arabs or all Palestinians are "kaffieh clad Nazis"? I think not.

[ygalg1]

But does this mean that all Arabs or all Palestinians are "kaffieh clad Nazis"? I think not.


It is obvious that they support nazi annihilation of the Jews

And by their imitation of nazi salute should give us a red light.

Majority is in favor of elimination of the Jews

The biggest obstacle for getting to peace with them lay in their doctrine (Koran)

It is contain passages that abolish our existence and support our extermination.

The Christian and we described as monkeys and pigs after that only insane want to be associating with these.

[Luke90]

In that case, what do you suggest as an alternative to making peace.
Surely the only question is at what cost and with what conditions do you make peace rather than should we make peace at all.

[KettleWhistle]

A better question would be, should we sue for peace? I'd say no.

[ygalg1]

In that case, what do you suggest as an alternative to making peace.
Surely the only question is at what cost and with what conditions do you make peace rather than should we make peace at all.



The only peace valid according to their doctrine, it is by submitted to Islam!

Meaning to convert and become a Muslim.

Otherwise you are good as a pig and a monkey as describe in the Koran.

These non Muslims who are helping them thinking they will be rewarded peace terribly wrong, cause they serve as the must for the servant of Muslims and they going to have as well to choose to convert or to die. So they basically are used to serve the interest of Islam until they end their assignment after that they choose death or Islam.



They’re no other option than this above!

[ygalg1]

maybe there is a doorway to peace

its to you to judge http://www.moslem.org/

[Mediocrates]

But it's not for us heathens and infidels to make nice with some elements of political Islam in the hope that somehow, through some process called magic, that all the radical Islamic cults will come to the table too. No that job is for all the Islamic countries and political factions to settle whatever differences they have. Let's not forget for example that Islamic fundamentalists are fighting each other in Saudi Arabia, etc. for fundamentalist dominance of one another.

[ernesto]

ygalg1

I wonder could I have a quotation of the surah/verse of the Quran in which Allah explains to us that the Jews and Christians are monkeys and Pigs , Please. I am very ignorant on such matters.

[Illuminatus]

The Qur'an says that Jews are under Allah's curse and were changed by him into monkeys and pigs in Suras 2:62-65, 5:59-60, and 7:166.

Christians are thrown in in 5:59-60.

[ernesto]

2/62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

63. And (O Children of Israel, remember) when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying): "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein so that you may become Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

64. Then after that you turned away. Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allâh upon you, indeed you would have been among the losers.

65. And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."

It would appear that above that the reference is to "those who transgressed".

5/59. Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allâh, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Fâsiqûn [rebellious and disobedient (to Allâh)]?"

60. Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allâh: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allâh and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Tâghût (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."

Above the reference is clearly to those who went so far as to incur the curse of Allah.
By mehtods of Silliness outlined therein.

166. So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected." (It is a severe warning to the mankind that they should not disobey what Allâh commands them to do, and be far away from what He prohibits them).
These people seem clearly to have exceeded the limits of what they were prohibitted before the pig/monkey thing was utilized.
I think we should have a direct statement via the Quran to the effect that Jews and Christians are Monkeys or pigs before a conversation be held on the basis that such a quote is already taken as fact

[KettleWhistle]

It would appear that above that the reference is to "those who transgressed".

Above the reference is clearly to those who went so far as to incur the curse of Allah.
By mehtods of Silliness outlined therein.


These people seem clearly to have exceeded the limits of what they were prohibitted before the pig/monkey thing was utilized.
I think we should have a direct statement via the Quran to the effect that Jews and Christians are Monkeys or pigs before a conversation be held on the basis that such a quote is already taken as fact

But you forgot to mention who determines what the transgressions and limits of what is prohibited are and how it is being determined.

[ernesto]

I dont think there is any doubt as to who is determining these :confused: limits. If the scenario is being dscribed in the Quran then the inference is that God is laying down the limits and guidelines.

But that is irrelevant because ygalg1 needs to quote the words of the Quran that describe certain peoples as being Pigs and Monkeys in order that the discussion can be continued along the basis upon which it currently travels. So far, the Quranic quotes provided have declared that transgressors of God's word and people beyond the limit of God's prohibiton have been likened to these animals.
But this is not what is being implied in this thread.
Clarification is required, in my opinion.

[ygalg1]

I dont think there is any doubt as to who is determining these :confused: limits. If the scenario is being dscribed in the Quran then the inference is that God is laying down the limits and guidelines.

But that is irrelevant because ygalg1 needs to quote the words of the Quran that describe certain peoples as being Pigs and Monkeys in order that the discussion can be continued along the basis upon which it currently travels. So far, the Quranic quotes provided have declared that transgressors of God's word and people beyond the limit of God's prohibiton have been likened to these animals.
But this is not what is being implied in this thread.
Clarification is required, in my opinion.

as you put it, the monkey and the pig it is for these who transgressed

according to Muslims (I encounter in other forums) we already are, as we rejected Islam. (still are we going to be, consider such, even so we are not going to accept Islam?)

it is difficult to think otherwise, as most support that statements.

my Apology, when I post earlier reply I was not in my lucid situation.
there are however moderate Muslims I just unfortunately met few of them.

[ygalg1]

the problem lies in the Muslims favor of "hadeet" sort of "halacha"(Jewish religious laws) for muslims.

which to mho contradicts the statement of the Koran as the last word

there is a site that abolishes hadeet's validity and explains very convincible comments. http://www.moslem.org/ (http://www.moslem.org/)



of course this site yet threat these who are in favor of hadeet cause of its small influence

but as it will increase itself, it will be targeted by these hadeet zealous.

[KettleWhistle]

I dont think there is any doubt as to who is determining these :confused: limits.

Exactly my point.

[water]

arad don't want peace
they only want every jewish isreal dead
and then they what the rest of the world to do it there way,or to follow in the way of the jews
death all around

[minusthejihad]

I disagree. There are many Arabs and Muslims that want peace, unfortunately they are the "silent minority". My Arab and Muslim friends here in the US have no problem with me nor Israel.

[water]

ok i will say not all arabs
but why do we not have more arads spaeking up
why are they not trying to be seprate form the hate mongers
at this time in history are parent teaching their children the turth or are they just not saying "bad thing" about the jews, and the state of Isreal an so on
i could not stay in a religion that suports the killing of the nation of Israel just because it is

[gandolf2005]

There are many Arabs and Muslims that want peace, unfortunately they are the "silent minority

How would that silent majority vote??

[ygalg1]

some but very rare and probably doubtful

[minusthejihad]

How would that silent majority vote??

Caught you believin the hype. I said "minority".

[Bahia]

First of all I find it very difficult to post my opinion as a non muslim, non jew and because I am living in a country that has no fears of a lot of terrorism or any kind of occupation.
So who am I to say something about it. But then again Iám a worldcitizin and it hurts me that Israel is in such a difficult situation. It hurts me for the israelien people because when can they live in peace!!!.
Today I had a nice conversation with Najieb, a muslim boy who is managing this cafe and he doesn't hate jews or christians as many of his people. Don't forget that muslim people are more or less discriminated in the west, also in Holland.
We also talked that the jews and muslim have much more in common. I stressed that, because only christians believe in a son of God. So in that respect jews and muslims are more related to each other, they should see and realize that more and profounder.
What divided the muslims from the jews? They should be there companians. The christian world is much more to blame for the hurt to Israel in the past.

Anyway there are very liberal muslims in Holland who do not hate jews and christians. I just wanted to stress it out. But I realize that I live in a very fortunate situation so it is easy for me to say such things.

[ygalg1]

Bahia


Appreciate your attempt to approximate hearts and hoping by that to bring everlasting peace.

The similarities been discussed with Muslims, who are represent majority of Muslim community, these have no intention to show any sign, which you hope, would be.
These Muslims, oppose any right to Jews and to Christians to exist (commanded by their doctrine)
To reach harmony with them, it is to accept their doctrine, which I have no intention to do so, not now, not ever. I find their doctrine biased!

[ygalg1]

Abraham asks God to spare lives of righteous men might be.

God granted him to take ten that falls to such criterion



How would we act reference to the Muslims?

[Bahia]

Hallo Ygalg 1,

In reference of your writing. How come that for example centurys ago in Spain, in Granada there were living Muslims, Jews and Christian together in harmony? How was that possible then at that time. And for example Suriname in South America, there in Paramaribo live Jews, Muslims and Christians and other religion peacefully together. The musk and the synagoge are in one street like naighbours. How come that there it is possible?

[ygalg1]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html

read and wise

[Mediocrates]

http://www.dhimmi.org/
http://www.dhimmitude.org/index.php
http://www.campusi.com/author_Bat_Yeor.htm
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/288
http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/article.php?voir%5B%5D=85&voir%5B%5D=1654
http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/dhimmitude.htm

[KettleWhistle]

Don't forget that muslim people are more or less discriminated in the west, also in Holland.

How exactly are they being discriminated? I've never heard of any companies, public organizations, or mainstream private organizations refusing to accept or hire Muslims or instituting quotes.

Instead, whenever anyone disagrees with a Muslim, there are cries about "racism against Muslims" and "discrimination."


In reference of your writing. How come that for example centurys ago in Spain, in Granada there were living Muslims, Jews and Christian together in harmony?

How come that centuries ago the black slaves in the U.S. and their white owners lived in harmony? Sure there were a few slaves riots, but the Army quickly restored the harmonious ballance, right?

[Bahia]

How muslim people are being discriminated?, well for example by getting jobs, in discussions among the people . They are often all regarded as terrorists, off course not by everyone. I think they could feel being attacked by a lot of criticism towards their muslim religion.

About the slavery in America, it seems to me that the living together centuries ago in Granada, spain by Jews, Moslims, and Christians can not be compared by the slavery in America. The slaves where being taken from Africa against there will with a lot of violence and oppression. The slave will have accustomed to their owners to stay alive but not by free will or choice. As far as my knowledge goes, the people living together in Granada were not slaves and lived there, Jews,Moslims and Christians by free will.

[FOGOMAINS]

.....
How come that centuries ago the black slaves in the U.S. and their white owners lived in harmony? Sure there were a few slaves riots, but the Army quickly restored the harmonious ballance, right?

Made my day :rolleyes:

[Bahia]

I think you cannot possibly say that harmony existed between the slaves and their owners.
You might have meant that ironically, and you cannot compare that kind of oppressed ''harmony" with choosen tolerance between the different cultures. I think there is a huge difference and still more important, How to get it!
How to realize it, I might make a new thread about it, thank you!

[FOGOMAINS]

I think you cannot possibly say that harmony existed between the slaves and their owners.
You might have meant that ironically, and you cannot compare that kind of oppressed ''harmony" with choosen tolerance between the different cultures. I think there is a huge difference and still more important, How to get it!
How to realize it, I might make a new thread about it, thank you!

I'm sure (hope) that he meant it ironically. After reading this phrase i asked some friends wether the Civil War really destroyed the harmony between slaves and owners. They laughed and told me that i've been possibly fooled by a new Art Buchwald :)

[water]

what we need now is some countablity
i keep thinking it like when when blacks in a America stood up and said we have to be treated the same
there were many who said they were not racists ,but there was a whole lot of hatdred under the surface
in this day i think muslim must say "iam not standing with murders and terrorist"
they must walk away from the organized religion to make there stand
this has happen in the christain word ,branchs have come away so the people can have there say
because right now some say "they don't beleive it is a "right" of muslims to kill jewish Isrealis"
then they need to make themself heard by say goobye to the men who say kill in the name of Ali
because if they turly mean they do not hate jews and Israelis
THEY SIN AGIANTS THEIR OWN SOULS WHEN THEY SUPORT THEIR MOSQUE

[KettleWhistle]

Harmony doesn't mean equality. It is simply an oposite of chaos or disarray. Essentially, the word is meaningless, perhaps with the exceptions of it's application in music and physics. And in context of cultural analysis, it is completely subjective.

[jrpfeffer2]

Should Israel sue for peace? No. Let them come to Israel.

For many years now Israel was caught in a bit of a trap. The Palestinian entity did just enough to keep Israel thinking that peace may be around the corner and that negotiation was about to bare fruit if... Israel was strung along.

However, the Palestinian side was not ready for peace. The problem was that the Palestinian side never reconciled their biggest dilemna. They will never turn on the terrorists. It is taboo in Palestine to talk of that. They can never not ask for many concessions that Israel can never give them, like ROR, and the June 4,67 borders.

What Israel needs to do is force a final settlement. A good and just principle would be to let the Palestinians have their state where Palestinians live now in the WB & G, with no relocations. Where permanent Jewish communities are in the WB, they become part of Israel. This must be imposed on Palestine because they can never agree to it.

Once all people are on their own side of the fence and the IDF no longer has Palestinian mayhemers under their feet, (the Arab Israelis will not be forced to leave Israel), then the conflict will fade into history.

The Palestinian modus operandi has always been to drag out the conflict until the situation in the world becomes more favourable to them. Time is on their side, so Sharon was right to announce his unilateral plan last year. It struck terror in the minds of the Palestinians because they knew that Sharon was trying to pull the conflict right from under them. The Palestinians have been desperately trying to kickstart engagement with Israel. They fear disengagment more than any Israeli missile.

[jrpfeffer2]

No pacifist has ever won a war for his country.


True, yet there has never been such a broadly based myth that pacifism can settle a conflict than the nonesense spread by PeaceNow.