Nazi medical experiments - a moral dilemma

[sharonbn]

There was a very interesting article in weekend edition of Yedioth.
It was about the survivors of Dr. Josef Mengale, chief physician at Auswitch death camp. He conducted many experiments on Jews, as well as Polish and Russian prisoners. He was famous for his experiments on twins. The survivors were named Mengale's twins. The article describes one survivor, an 81 y.o woman living in Israel. Her twin sister was murdered by the Nazis and she herself endured many tortures. She lived with the trauma for over 40 years. Then she decided that in order to heal herself, she needs to forgive the Nazis for what they have done.

So she met with a German who was a physician at Auswitch. He agreed to come to Auswitch with her and sign a document that confirms the existence of the experiments while she signs a document that states forgiveness. She wanted to achieve two things: first and foremost, to heal her trauma. But she also wanted to contribute to the battle against Holocaust deniers with the confession.
They did it in 1995. She says she feels a lot better since.

The article also presents the opposing voice to that woman's action. Another survivor of Dr. Mengale speaks her mind about the infuriation and danger that forgiveness to Nazis brings.

The article then continues to a little known issue that still stirs much controversy in the medical community: the usage of results of Nazi experiments in today's medical research. Besides sheer sadistic tortures, the Nazis also used Jews and other prisoners as ginipigs to medical research. For instance, Jews were used to check how much cold and warmth a human being can endure. The German army commissioned the doctors at the death camp to search for cures to mustard gas, flame throwers etc. Jews were also used to conduct one of the most detailed survey of the Human anatomy. bodies of Jews were sent to German and Austrian universities where they were cut, dissected and measured. Over the course of the decades to follow, several universities have admitted to storing body parts of Jews for medical research. On several occasions, the remains were handed to local Jewish communities for proper burial, yet, until today, most academic bodies refuse to investigate their past. The article speculates that Jewish bodies still exist in German and Austrian universities.

An "Atlas of the human anatomy" was published by a German doctor in 1953. It was a groundbreaking work that was used extensively as source material by researchers all over the world for over two decades. It was later noticed that in all the illustrations, men are seen circumcised, and also some Nazi-influenced text was discovered in the book.

The article describes the controversy among researchers regarding usage of Nazi experiments in today's medical research. If it helps save lives today - is it morally correct to use the results of these experiments?

[Leon]

Jews were also used to conduct one of the most detailed survey of the Human anatomy. bodies of Jews were sent to German and Austrian universities where they were cut, dissected and measured. Over the course of the decades to follow, several universities have admitted to storing body parts of Jews for medical research. On several occasions, the remains were handed to local Jewish communities for proper burial, yet, until today, most academic bodies refuse to investigate their past. The article speculates that Jewish bodies still exist in German and Austrian universities.

The animalistic barbarity of European enlightenment, humanity and universalism.

[sharonbn]

Nazi actions has nothing to do with enlightenment and humanism.

Nazism is an extreme form of Nationalism and present Nazi movements belong to the extreme right wing. That is quite the opposite of enlightenment and humanism (Nationalism - Universalism? duhh) Just because someone belongs to the academic world does not mean he is enlightened or humanistic.

[Leon]

Is Austria and Germany still under the Nazis or are they apart of the enlightened EU:

On several occasions, the remains were handed to local Jewish communities for proper burial, yet, until today, most academic bodies refuse to investigate their past. The article speculates that Jewish bodies still exist in German and Austrian universities.

It just proves that Europe is still a barbaric continent -- despite mutating into a multinational organisation called the EU - an organisation based on universalism. Actually like the UN, its purported 'universalism' is what makes it barbaric.

You obviously dont get the point I'm trying to make, so dont worry.

[sharonbn]

It only proves that Nazism and Anti-Semitism is alive and well in Europe. Something we all know already.
Austria and Germany are part of enlightened EU. and they have racist related problems, like every other enlightened and not so enlightened country in the world. Doesn't America have racist problems? Ask every black person what do they think about the O.J. Simpson trial.... Doesn't Israel have racist problems? Ask every Israeli of Ethiopian descent what they think about the subject.

Just because a country has racist problems, it does not mean it is not enlightened or humanistic. Racism is a human trait and exists in every moderately heterogeneous human society.

So you're absolutely right: I really don't get the point you're trying to make, but relax, it doesn't worry me.

[Zlatorog]

Can you check if they intend to put the article online, even if in Hebrew.

The story is quite unusual, she found a Nazi and went to Auschwitz. I'd never go there, we were in all concentration camps, they are everywhere. Some are in quite beautiful places so one can have a short break there (instead of that brick Auscwitz place). I think you had a female Nobel Prize winner in the 60's in Italy who also publicly decided Life goes on... From your post it's not clear whether she signed to forgive this particular Nazi or some others as well. What holocaust denial, we had over 100.000 in those camps and witnessed almost everything. I don't know exactly how many died (we were not supposed to die), but only 35.717 civilians were killed here by the Nazis and with one small exception we were never bombed. From the territory of Slovenia (without Austria and Littoral) also 27.135 Partisan fighters died.

The other day I saw a guy on TV and he explained rather well how he cleaned Auschwitz, many of such people are still alive. What about Mussolini, he expelled about 700 Jews around 1938 and Yad Vashem has an article that he was not a racist. But he only protected 'The Italian Nation'. What that meant you need to read his 'African Laws'. Most Jews were on forced labor.

This (http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/testimony.php?RefId=IHP0471M) is a biased testimony. ...still Croatian-Yugoslav territory, but under Italian flag His words are well chosen because of territory, it was Italian through and through. And he never saw thousands in tents? How did he cross Croatia by himself, get in touch with the Italians or swim across the sea? About 100 Jews from Zagreb fled to Ljubljana from where some were taken to Arbe. My guess is those 60 that were found in those first army records. Mussolini would turn them over, allegedly he didn't because of the Vatican, at the same time Roatta was supposedly disobeying his orders. Someone should take old Simon Wiesenthal website offline, what 15.000 Yugoslav Jews... Fini has already apologised to you, every Jewish site in Jewish Italy is protected.

History matters. (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/impu/itaimp1.html) Foibe, about 4000 people were in all missing between 43 - 54 in the entire Istria and Venezia Giulia, they now say we killed 20.000. On that day that this first Rememberance day was presented, 10 February 2005, from Rome such an article went around the world and I can email everyone in vain, because they say, yeah, right, it was Stalinist terror and ethnic cleansing. But after the war the Esuli were given flats in Trieste and even in the 70's some Triestini threw stones at our people and we had a new wave of emigration. The border btw was open and free completely in 1955.

The nationally mixed area of the Friuli-Venezia Giulia region, which was occupied by Italy in 1918 (and annexed in November 1920), was populated by more than one fourth of Slovenes (and many Croats), who had been since 1918 subjected to forcible denationalisation and then to the war terror by initially fascist Italian authorities and eventually by the Nazis and their collaborationists.

"Cleanse immediately, although not on the national basis but on the basis of fascism." This was one of the instructions (issued at the end of April 1945) on the basis of which the Yugoslav authorities arrested several thousand people in early May 1945 after the liberation and occupation of the Giulia region. The great majority of the arrested were soon released, while the rest were either executed and thrown into karst pitches (foibas) or deported to the prisons camps, where some of them indeed died for various reasons.

In the Giulia region living Slovenes and Croats, as well as left-wing Italians who were for ideological reasons in favour of the Littoral being annexed to Yugoslavia, comprehended the violent measures at the time of liberation and ensuing enthusiasm as a "settlement of accounts" with fascism and Nazism, as a justifiable punishment associated by vengeance for the numerous people killed during the war, as well as for those killed during the last fights for Trieste. The great majority were convinced that the arrests and executions were carried out according to the regulations and laws and that this was the essential and positive difference from the frequently uncontrolled vengeance elsewhere in Europe. At the same time they often interceded with the authorities for those who had to their conviction been arrested unduly or protested when those were released that were believed to had committed the crimes.

The Italian left wasn't 'silent for decades' because they'd be part of it.

On the other hand, the mass arrests carried out particularly in Trieste and Gorizia created the atmosphere of terror and uncertainty, which eventually involved numerous people that demanded Italy to be retained (amongst them being fascists as well as members of the Italian liberation movement).

The so-called foibas were, together with the issue of emigration by Istrian Italians, successfully exploited (and still is) by the Italian right wing, as well as by some Italian politicians at the time of peace talks, when they attempted to present this violence as one of the worst tragedies of World War II, and later on. The foibas became a synonym for the Slav and communist barbarism. With the exploitation of national feelings they succeeded in gaining on their side numerous people of all classes and partially to exert influence also upon the Italian left wing.

How do we solve this now? We can't. When the historians made a report about Italian-Slovene relations this one too was ignored. They still ignore their own historians. And they never compensated those who emigrated, they were supposed to do that instead of paying us reparations. The rest Slovenia payed when property was denationalised - $60 milion, they still haven't lifted that money.

But even if they think the last property estimate should be bigger, no; The Trieste Trade and Crafts Cooperative was part of a network of loan banks, savings banks, banks, financial cooperatives and joint-stock companies, which the Slovenes in Trieste and its surroundings had established during the last decades of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. It operated in Trieste from 1906 to 1941. Its development and business ventures were particularly successful in the period of 1906-1918, and it had great merit in establishing the Slovene Commercial School in Trieste. It conducted business with the largest Slovene financial institutions in Trieste, the Tržaška posojilnica in hranilnica (Loans and Savings Bank of Trieste) and the Jadranska banka (Adriatic Bank). After Trieste came under Italian rule, the situation worsened and reached a critical level in the period of the Fascist regime. Financial operations were carried out under very difficult circumstances; the pressure exerted by the regime changed to violence and the financial institution of the Trade and Craft Cooperative was abolished with an official decree and merged with an Italian institution: the Banca popolare giuliana. After the Second World War, the Slovenes in Trieste, despite their efforts, could not achieve the restitution of their confiscated cooperative, nor was any financial compensation whatsoever awarded them.


Back to your post. Our people who were victims of Nazi experiments in Austria are called the Verband Ausgesiedelter Slowenen. Because of Sudostdeutsches Institut and Gaugrenzlandamd they were put in catagories A,B,C,D. After Hitler invaded, Styria was in the hands of SA-Gruppe Sudmark, led by a general Arthur Nibbe. Soon it was taken over by Austria, dr. Siegfried Uiberreither. His SA Franz Steindl spread this territory. The Austrian Nazis here were responsible for the mayors, the so called Amtsburgermaisters. They also got the task to make us German after Himmler and Rainer expelled us from Styria and Gorenjska (from Styria 53.189 in the first wave). From the region in the south between rivers Sava and Sotla they expelled 36.261 to Germany (that's all without Celje town etc.). The Austrian Nazis were supposed to help settle Germans from Sud Tyrol, Bukovina, Bessarabia, Bosnia... All bureocracy about citizenship was in Austria. Josef Lackner for example was visiting the forcibly mobilised, telling them they shoud remember how it was under Austria, that they are neither Slovenes, Windischars, but faithful Styrians. They printed thousands and thousands of newspapers in Graz with such propaganda (Steierland newspaper for example in 27.000 copies). Only a few were sent to Stalingrad etc as Mil believes, they were supposed to become Austrian Germans. These groups were Wehrmannschaft, led by SA Franz Blasch, Volkssturm led by SA Franz Steindl, anti-aircraft Haimatflak with school children, the oldest 16, sent all over Austria, women in Wermachthelferinen and Reichsarbeitsdienst... The more they fled, the more they were expelled. 11.346 were killed in both German and Italian army. The British have helped us just once, in Libya.

The resistance in Carinhia is called Verband der Kärntner Partisanen, they get pensions for it.

I think the question is if Russia has all the experiment documentation stored, what academic bodies refuse to investigate their past?

[sharonbn]

I don't understand your post.
You say "only 35.717 civilians were killed here by the Nazis" where is "here"?
The acceptable figure is that 1.5 million Jews dies in Auschwitz.

And what's with the long story of Italy and Joguslavia? wht's the relevance?

The Ynet article does not state that "Russia has all the experiment documentation". Where did you get this? Why would Russia have any documents? The Nazis took everything from Auschwitz with them when they left. The article explicitly state that German and Austrian universities have documentation as well as actual body parts of Jewish holocaust victims.

[Zlatorog]

I don't understand your post.
You say "only 35.717 civilians were killed here by the Nazis" where is "here"?
The acceptable figure is that 1.5 million Jews dies in Auschwitz.

Here is here - the part of Slovenia that was annexed to the Reich. The 1100 Fascists that were punished in Venezia Giulia and Istria were also punished for the Salo Republic and for the 20 looong transports from the whole of Italy that went from Trieste to Auschwitz. We will not reveal their names, until Fascist history is cleared. The way things are going - never.

And what's with the long story of Italy and Joguslavia? wht's the relevance?.

Simon Wiesenthal was pretty close to contributing to the denial of 30.000 of Slovenes in Italian concentration camps, of which over 13.000 were starved to death or were shot. Many Israel websites present history in a flawed way - how Mussolini protected the Jews.

The Ynet article does not state that "Russia has all the experiment documentation". Where did you get this? Why would Russia have any documents? The Nazis took everything from Auschwitz with them when they left. The article explicitly state that German and Austrian universities have documentation as well as actual body parts of Jewish holocaust victims.

I didn't think it did. I thought that perhaps Russia had some documentation from those universities as well.

[Leon]

It only proves that Nazism and Anti-Semitism is alive and well in Europe. Something we all know already.
Austria and Germany are part of enlightened EU. and they have racist related problems, like every other enlightened and not so enlightened country in the world. Doesn't America have racist problems? Ask every black person what do they think about the O.J. Simpson trial.... Doesn't Israel have racist problems? Ask every Israeli of Ethiopian descent what they think about the subject.

Just because a country has racist problems, it does not mean it is not enlightened or humanistic. Racism is a human trait and exists in every moderately heterogeneous human society.

So you're absolutely right: I really don't get the point you're trying to make, but relax, it doesn't worry me.


Europe is as about enlightened as a cave full of bats. Be it the Crusades, inquisition, pogroms, Facism, gas chambers, communism or now under the new giuse of the "EU" its still the same old barbaric contitnent. Its overall support and sympathy of radical Islam, Arab nationalism and PLO terrorism serves to prove this.

Did ya mention black people in the US and Israel and racism existing everywhere...do gas chambers exist everywhere? Are the body parts of innocent murdered black people (who were either gassed or shot by the US authorities) stored and used in anatomical/scientific schools in the US today -- with US institutes refusing to disclose whether they have these body parts or not?

Stop with ure politically correct, self-righteous liberal and moral relativist, idol jibberish.

[Zlatorog]

Btw, they were from the whole of Italy and they were tried.

[sharonbn]

Europe is as about enlightened as a cave full of bats. Be it the Crusades, inquisition, pogroms, Facism, gas chambers, communism or now under the new giuse of the "EU" its still the same old barbaric contitnent. Its overall support and sympathy of radical Islam, Arab nationalism and PLO terrorism serves to prove this.

Europe is indeed biased towards Palestinians. No one says otherwise. But its not the same as it was in the times of Crusades, inquisition, pogroms, WWII. They used to put people in Gas Chambers, but they don't do that anymore, do they?

I don't think the past of America, Australia or Japan is much better then that of Europe. Americans committed genocide of the native Americans only 200 years ago. Aussies did the same to the native Aborigines. Does this mean America and Australia are barbaric?

Did ya mention black people in the US and Israel and racism existing everywhere...do gas chambers exist everywhere?
In America there were no Gas Chambers. They "only" hanged and shot Black people and treated them as cattle. If this is the difference you need to have to make the Americans enlightened and Europeans barbaric, then good for you. I don't subscribe to this opinion.

Stop with ure politically correct, self-righteous liberal and moral relativist, idol jibberish.
Stop with your black-and-white unrealistic absolutism unjustified bashing.

[Ben.]

I've heard lots of nonsence, but this beats it all. Leon, I have met a professor of Jewish Cultural History with whom I had some very interresting talks. Europe is not a barbaric continent, nazism was. Nazism is only a short period in 'European' history. Being historian myself, I could easily write 100 pages on why you are so wrong, however, I have better things to do than convince someone who doesn't know a clue what he's talking about. The Crusades were long before the Enlightment. How can you compare both. As a European I feel offended, as an academic though I am amused by your childish remarks.

You obviously know less of Judaism than myself. Otherwise you wouldn't say such stupid things like "cut the liberal ". I thought reform Judaism was all about liberalism, and so was the enlightment. I have an enormous respect for Judaism, even for the current state Israel. Therefore I know you are not speaking for the majority of Jews, but for the majority of idiots who occupy this planet ... I have ofcourse, warned the webmaster because I find your post to be racist towards every European. I hope most members on this board have different ideas.

Sharon you are right ofcourse. Anti-semitism and the Holocaust is a scarf on the European civilization. However, the Holocaust is not just barbarism, that would be too easy: killing millions of people in such a cold, mechanised way is even more frightening! If it was just about barbarism, 6 million Jews could not be killed in such a short time! It was organised mass-muder, a product of the industrial revolution. We should therefor, as Europeans, remember the Holocaust as that period in History in which our own civilization failed!

PS: I'm new on this board. Sorry for sounding a bit arrogant in my first post but this is not acceptable :mad:

[FOGOMAINS]

Is Austria and Germany still under the Nazis or are they apart of the enlightened EU:
It just proves that Europe is still a barbaric continent -- despite mutating into a multinational organisation called the EU - an organisation based on universalism. Actually like the UN, its purported 'universalism' is what makes it barbaric.

You obviously dont get the point I'm trying to make, so dont worry.

i have to decline that Europe is a barbaric continent. I can't get the point you are trying to make :confused:

Be sure that we will fight Nazism even when we got some Neo-Nazis. Would like to know who is financing them and their horrible websites (mainly residing on US and Canada servers)

BTW: saw an TV-documention about US-citizens running around in Nazi-Outfit. The poor people would be prosecuted and possible jailed in Germany.

Freedom is just another word, for nothing left to loose :p

[Zlatorog]

Never forget

1932 Nov 5, Mussolini freed 16,000 criminals.
1938 Jul 14, Mussolini published anti-Jewish and African manifest.
1938 Sep 1, Mussolini cancelled the civil rights of Italian Jews.
1938 Nov 10, Fascist Italy enacted anti-Semitic legislation.
1938 Nov 17, Italy passed its own version of anti-Jewish Nuremberg laws.
1938 King Victor Emmanuel III supported dictator Benito Mussolini and signed racial laws that expelled Jews from government and university jobs and the military and restricted their work, schooling and right to own property. Some 8,000 Jews were sent to concentration camps from which only about 600 survived.

Italy has apologised. But what about Greece, Ethiopia, Libya, Slovenia, Croatia... Just because half of our quisling Home Guard (who never even met a Jew) were killed (in all 13.406 - they were killed in a battle, about 5000 were returned from Austria, most were forcibly mobilised anyway - they had to prove here they haven't fired a shot -and then some were executed, some died during forced labour, some are complaining about something all the time), it doesn't mean Slovenia was a barbaric Stalinist country. We have someone on trial right now, of 12.000 suspicious names, 6000 were his, of which 130 are missing. These missing people could have as well be killed by fleeng anybody, that's why charges were dropped a few years ago. This is not a green light to Italian charades that should have been over two decades ago.

Austria and Germany are supposed to give university documentation to whom? Doesn't USHMM make microfilm copies of such things?

[Zlatorog]

Sharon, you will have to excuse me for hijacking your thread. I hope I haven't scared you, we are not hiding any Jews that would have anything to do with the history of Istria, Trieste, Venezia Giulia.

Of 1100 people that have died, they were of four nationalities. It was a local thing under occupation of the Allies. It was monitored by the Allied police. Of over 9000 people that were arrested - these were arrested because of what locals have testified, including Garibaldini - the list was made out of the list that had belonged to the occupying Fascist and Nazi government, who gave such people a permission to cary guns and other weapons. That's why we didn't do to our Home Guard what the population did to everyone in Torino, Milano, not to mention Emilia Romagna or the cities that were bombed - we had a similar list for the Home Guard. The Home Guard was formed in 44 when Rainer tried to form an autonomy of Ljubljana province - to stop the growth of resistance. Most that were killed were killed as they were sent infront of Tito's army that came from the south, so that the German army could flee. That's why many were spared.

Most of these 1100 missing - they were not executed, only a few were at first executed, they were taken to zone B to forced labor. 4 Armies were here. That's when this whole agony began. The foibe were checked, that's it. The Esuli rage is more directed against Croatia, where they are from. But when the Allies labelled us as too Stalin friendly, we haven't returned our prisoners. Some died in harsh conditions. How many of these were Italian, noone has a clue.

[minusthejihad]

You obviously know less of Judaism than myself. Otherwise you wouldn't say such stupid things like "cut the liberal ". I thought reform Judaism was all about liberalism, and so was the enlightment. I have an enormous respect for Judaism, even for the current state Israel. Therefore I know you are not speaking for the majority of Jews, but for the majority of idiots who occupy this planet ...

Welcome to the forum. Jews are not a monolithic group. We have a wide range of opinions from liberal to conservative like every other people. Don't make the mistake of falling into the same trap you warn others about.

[Ben.]

Welcome to the forum. Jews are not a monolithic group. We have a wide range of opinions from liberal to conservative like every other people. Don't make the mistake of falling into the same trap you warn others about.

Thanks! I'm fully aware of the differences between reformists, conservatives, orthodox and reconstructionalists. Just like there's difference between Roman Catholics and Calvenists as well. The issue here was about basic respect though. I don't think I as a modern European should be called barbaric because of what has happened 2 generations ago. And neither should the totality of European history, with it's heights and lows be looked upon as barbaric ...

[minusthejihad]

No, I mean, within each of our branches there is a spectrum of ideas. I would be considered a reform Jew and I am a liberal on domestic policy and a conservative on foreign policy. My other reform friends don't agree with my views, neither of us loose sleep over it. I know religious Jews who don't agree and who voted for differnet political parties. 2 Jews - 3 opinions.

[sharonbn]

and there are also secular Jews. in fact its the majority of Jews in the world in general and in Israel in specific.

[KettleWhistle]

So she met with a German who was a physician at Auswitch. He agreed to come to Auswitch with her and sign a document that confirms the existence of the experiments while she signs a document that states forgiveness. She wanted to achieve two things: first and foremost, to heal her trauma.
Idiot.

The article then continues to a little known issue that still stirs much controversy in the medical community: the usage of results of Nazi experiments in today's medical research. Besides sheer sadistic tortures, the Nazis also used Jews and other prisoners as ginipigs to medical research. For instance, Jews were used to check how much cold and warmth a human being can endure. The German army commissioned the doctors at the death camp to search for cures to mustard gas, flame throwers etc. Jews were also used to conduct one of the most detailed survey of the Human anatomy. bodies of Jews were sent to German and Austrian universities where they were cut, dissected and measured. Over the course of the decades to follow, several universities have admitted to storing body parts of Jews for medical research. On several occasions, the remains were handed to local Jewish communities for proper burial, yet, until today, most academic bodies refuse to investigate their past. The article speculates that Jewish bodies still exist in German and Austrian universities.

An "Atlas of the human anatomy" was published by a German doctor in 1953. It was a groundbreaking work that was used extensively as source material by researchers all over the world for over two decades. It was later noticed that in all the illustrations, men are seen circumcised, and also some Nazi-influenced text was discovered in the book.
And that's a bunch of long-ago debunked bull. In reality, the Nazi-led human experimentation contributed next to nothing to medical research. Most of the anatomy was well-known prior to that from the dissections of corpses that were being analyzed from the mid-1800's.

[Leon]

I've heard lots of nonsence, but this beats it all. Leon, I have met a professor of Jewish Cultural History with whom I had some very interresting talks.


[QUOTE]Europe is not a barbaric continent, nazism was.

And Nazism was a product of a barbaric continent called Europe - over 1000 years of European anti-semitism and hatred. Just like Europe's support for Arab terrorism against innocent Jews in Israel and putting on lavish funerals for the likes of Arafat. "Like a hole in the head" remarked Chris Patten once (refer to my other post) "that ty little country" said one notable French embassador of Israel.


Nazism is only a short period in 'European' history.

Why the quotation marks?


Crusades? inquisition? pogroms? If you want to talk about today: EU support of terror against innocent Jews in Israel?

Being historian myself, I could easily write 100 pages on why you are so wrong, however, I have better things to do than convince someone who doesn't know a clue what he's talking about.

Judging by your thesis, obviously not.

The Crusades were long before the Enlightment.

And gas chambers came before the enlightnment too? Wasnt Germany the fountain of European enlightement? You're right, first came the gas chambers and then the enlightenment...Germany (with its EU) became the fountain of enlightenment only after the gas chambers.

How can you compare both. As a European I feel offended, as an academic though I am amused by your childish remarks.

You obviously know less of Judaism than myself. Otherwise you wouldn't say such stupid things like "cut the liberal ". I thought reform Judaism was all about liberalism, and so was the enlightment.

I dont doubt that at all - especially by ure last line. not only does it demonstrate you're level of knowledge of Judiasm but you're IQ in general.


I have ofcourse, warned the webmaster because I find your post to be racist towards every European. I hope most members on this board have different ideas.

:rolleyes:

[Leon]

Europe is indeed biased towards Palestinians. No one says otherwise. But its not the same as it was in the times of Crusades, inquisition, pogroms, WWII. They used to put people in Gas Chambers, but they don't do that anymore, do they?

No they just keep and store their body parts at universities today. Once again, thanks for that very informative article.


I don't think the past of America, Australia or Japan is much better then that of Europe. Americans committed genocide of the native Americans only 200 years ago. Aussies did the same to the native Aborigines. Does this mean America and Australia are barbaric?

Neither implemented a policy of systemetic industrialised genocide.

In America there were no Gas Chambers. They "only" hanged and shot Black people and treated them as cattle.

Once again - America never adopted a policy of systametic industralised style of mass murder against black people. last time I heard -- the hanging and shooting and killing of black people was never government policy in America.

If this is the difference you need to have to make the Americans enlightened and Europeans barbaric, then good for you. I don't subscribe to this opinion.

Like I said, my tirade against Europe (and Ben please take note) was prompted by you're article on body parts from Jewish victims from the gas chambers still been stored in German and Austrian universities today. That in itself epitomises what these two countries and Europe in general really is (on top of everything else).


The latest "EU" which allegedly embraces "Universalist" ideals -- thinking that they are morally superior to everyone else and expecting everyone to conform to their two-faced ideals -- is another show of their barbarism.



Stop with your black-and-white unrealistic absolutism unjustified bashing.

Oh Pluz.

[Leon]

Ben, Europeans go out on a limb to try and understand why Muslims hate go around murdering people. They go out on a limb to justify it and white wash it.

If you can do that, try for a momenent and understand my anger and the anger and fustration of other Jews....who knows maybe as an academic you can devote an entire thesis on the subject matter.

I dont kill people, I dont strap explosives to my body...instead I just post my rantings on a forum.

Try and understand how I feel - especially after reading that article. You were right about one thing though -- you do come accross as extremley arrogant.

[Ben.]

1. germany fountain of european enlightment? Huh? You obviously don't know anything about it. germany is the fountain of romanticism. France and the anglo-saxon world were the foutains of enlightment.

2. 1000-years of anti-semitism? 1000 years? go find a dictionary, find anti-semitism. It's based purely on race,not religion. It's a 19th century belief, inspired by social-darwinism.

3. arafat a terrorist. Maybe, what about the founders of the state of israel? Didn't one of them once blew up a hotel and later became PM? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Ask the British what they thought of Zionism in the late 1940s: also terrorists.

4. I'm not arrogant in daily life. However, I have the right to defend myself. Since you didn't come up with valuable arguments, someone has to do it. I can understand your frustration, however calling an entire continent and its people barbaric is plain hatred. The 614th commandment: don't give hitler a posthume victory!

5. SharonBS, the bias towards Palestinians is not 100% true. most people symphatize with israel, because they see the muslims as a bigger threat than the jews

[Mediocrates]

2. 1000-years of anti-semitism? 1000 years? go find a dictionary, find anti-semitism. It's based purely on race,not religion. It's a 19th century belief, inspired by social-darwinism.

That's just nonsense.


3. arafat a terrorist. Maybe, what about the founders of the state of israel? Didn't one of them once blew up a hotel and later became PM? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Ask the British what they thought of Zionism in the late 1940s: also terrorists.

That's certifiable. To the bit bucket with ya.

[Leon]

1. germany fountain of european enlightment? Huh? You obviously don't know anything about it. germany is the fountain of romanticism. France and the anglo-saxon world were the foutains of enlightment.

Immanual Kant, Johann Gottfried von Herder, Moses Mendelssohn, Christian Wolff, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and much later Nietzsche (to name but a few). Prussia and much later the nation state of Germany was a world leader in both the enligtenment movement and technological/scientific advancement right up to the second world war.

You're credentials as a historian and academic are really showing.



2. 1000-years of anti-semitism? 1000 years? go find a dictionary, find anti-semitism. It's based purely on race,not religion. It's a 19th century belief, inspired by social-darwinism.

And what exactly is you're point? yes, anti-semitism was coined by a German in the 19th century to describe Jew hatred. How are you trying tp refute my argument?

3. arafat a terrorist. Maybe,

Maybe? Proves exactly my point -- you're just another barbarian.

what about the founders of the state of israel? Didn't one of them once blew up a hotel and later became PM? :rolleyes: :rolleyes

The founders of the State of Israel did not devote their time to the cold blooded murder and mass genocide of innocent people (like your friend Arafat). The intended targets were British soldiers not innocent women and children. The King David was used by the Brits as a military HQ, therefore making it a legitmate military target. Go sleep on that one.

Ask the British what they thought of Zionism in the late 1940s: also terrorists.

The British know very well --

1. since they turned a blind eye and even helped arabs perpetrate their pogroms against Jews in Israel during the 20's, 30's and 40's

2. they turned away Jewish refugees back to Europe to face the gas chambers (a Nazi Holocaust which cocidentally Arafat's predecessor and Palestinian leader at the time participated in).

4. I'm not arrogant in daily life. However, I have the right to defend myself. Since you didn't come up with valuable arguments, someone has to do it. I can understand your frustration, however calling an entire continent and its people barbaric is plain hatred. The 614th commandment: don't give hitler a posthume victory!

I'm not calling an entire people barbaric - just the notion of Europe barbaric.

[MGB8]

Ben,

First, Anti-Semitism is not racism because Jews are not a race.

Second, the anti-European sentiment on this board is not racism because Europeans are not a race.

Third, maybe you need to understand why Jews are so angry at Europe - and you yourself have done some of the things that make us so angry.

For example, you used the same label of "terrorists" on the founders of Israel, which is used on Pal Arab terrorists today. The differences between the two groups are striking - both in purpose, and in METHOD. The Israeli founders WOULD NOT MEET TODAYS DEFINITION OF "TERRORIST." Using that label is, in fact, libel! Why? Because they did not deliberately target non-combatants/civilians to attempt to terrorize the local population into political concessions. That IS what the Pal Arab and Jihadi and Pan-Arab terrorists do today.

They attacked British soldier, people who's homes and attachment were in Britain, not in "Palestine", who were controlling the land.

The Arab terrorsits, on the other hand, are trying to expell people from their homes, based on their religion, ethnic cleaning, and/or destroy Israel and commit genocide on the Jews (read their media - they are quite open about it, in arabic anyways.)

You have falsely, and libelously, created equivalency between the two groups, who are so different in both methods (they key to the label) and purpose (a secondary moral issue).

That is repugnant.

But more, Europe, who either committed or allowed the Holocaust, is very willing to risk 6 million new Jewish deaths by Arming the Arabs, including with Nukes, and forcing Israel into concessions that are, from a military vantage point, very dangerous to the continued survival of the Jewish state. Israel is labeled "the most dangerous nation", even though its neighbors are the ones in violation of the UN charter via non-recognition and calls for destruction - which many Europeans, prone to appeasement as you all are, now parrot "that ty little country" or "the mistake."

You do this all in the name of convenience and oil - which is sad since Europe is less oil dependant than the US, but the US, which did not appease Hitler, which did aid in the holocaust, as many Europeans did, or stand idley buy as their NEIGHBORS were taken to camps... the US somehow manages to treat Israel well.... not that its really on Israel's side - but it is committed to Israel's EXISTENCE, which Europe, fathers of the Holocaust and Inquisitions and a host of other attacks on Jews....cannot bring itself to be.

Europe has learned nothing from the Holocaust.... that is why Jews are so angry, and feel betrayed. And then you come with your damned libel.

[Gilgamesh]

Leon, I have met a professor of Jewish Cultural History with whom I had some very interresting talks. It's sure nice how you pick and choose the Jewish proffesor his opinions you like to hear. The question is, does hearing your own thoughts echoing from some anti Zionist history professor who happened to be jewish, does that bring you closer to discovering the truth or finding more knowladge?

Europe is not a barbaric continent, nazism was. Nazism is only a short period in 'European' history. And Nazism, Ben, just appear out of the thin air? existance out of void? Or was it a modern incarnation and the sum of all evil European culture has produced over the centuries. Although Nazis brought evil and anti semetism to new levels, they have invented nothing. Therefor, some mutation of Nazism will return some day in some situation. Bottom line, Europeans are bigot haters. Full cultural evolutionary cycle behind the Americans, only one level above the Arabs. A "civilization" which is built on hate is not civilized. It is barbaric.

Being historian myself, I could easily write 100 pages on why you are so wrong, What will be the worth of such an essay? How good or truthful would the content be?

We should therefor, as Europeans, remember the Holocaust as that period in History in which our own civilization failed! This is new to me. Never knew "civilization" could fail. Nazism represent a time when the real European "civilization" showed it's true face, no masks or inhibitions.

I represent truly many Israelis and Jews when I claim that all Europeans are decadent and perverted anti semetic haters under layers of paint. Scratch the coating a little, and you'll find the Nazi that was always there within any European.

[Zlatorog]

We were supposed to die as a nation since 1918. Only half were labelled Aryan, and temporarily that is. I don't think that anyone in Europe considers us 'temporarily half Aryan'.

[sharonbn]

First, Anti-Semitism is not racism because Jews are not a race.
emm... Jews are a race. Jews are an ethnic group. Anti Semitism is racism.

[KettleWhistle]

emm... Jews are a race. Jews are an ethnic group. Anti Semitism is racism.

Ethnicity is not race, and anti-Semitism isn't racism.