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Ophra
06-02-2005, 02:38 PM
Israeli who lives near the Gaza border says he would relinquish his own home if it meant peace with the Palestinians, slams staunch rightists and compares their "provokations" to those of terrorists
By Ronny Sofer

KIBBUTZ NAHAL OZ – A veteran kibbutz founder slammed on Thursday Jewish settlers and hardline rightists who have called to resist Israel's Gaza pullout and said he himself would have no problem giving up his own home for the sake of peace with the Palestinians.

“If they told me tomorrow, take your wife with you and evacuate Nahal Oz, because we need your home to solve the problem with the Palestinians, I will pick up and go. I have no problem relinquishing what we have built for 52 years to bring peace,” said Abraham “Leibush” Levy, 71.

A flock of birds swooped overhead and chirped loudly as the sun beat down on the dusty Kibbutz Nahal Oz while Levy and his wife Rachel, an accountant, ate lunch indoors. A few dozen feet from the Gaza border, residents of the kibbutz, or "Kibbutzniks," can view Gaza City from their backyard.

Nahal Oz resident Abraham "Leibush" Levy (Photo: Ronny Sofer)

A few miles to the north lies Jabalya refugee camp – a terrorist stronghold from which terrorists had months ago fired dozens of mortar bombs and rockets towards the kibbutz and various Israeli towns and army bases across the border in addition to their almost daily attacks on Jewish settlements.

“Just last week a (mortar) bomb fell here and tore through an electricity cable,” Levy said. “We are used to such firings. The anxiety of us veterans, who have been through a lot, has dropped.”

Such violence has decreased since most terrorist groups, including Hamas, agreed by persuasion of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas to abide by a de facto truce in March.

‘Just like Hamas and Hizbullah’

Levy blasted staunch right-wingers and settlers who continually protest against Israel’s upcoming pullout from all 21 settlements in Gaza and have called to resist the evacuation, calling their actions “provocations” reminiscent to those of Islamic terrorist groups.

“We both have extremists – we have the staunch right-wingers and they have Hamas and Islamic Jihad,” he said. “I think the provocations of our Right are just like those of Hamas and Hizbullah."

“If we let them control our lives, the situation will worsen. But if we know how to locate their moderate leadership and nurture it, there will be quiet, even after the pullout,” he said.

Security sources have said terrorists are likely to renew their attacks after the pullout, but Levy said he believed the opposite would occur. Israel, he said, could help tone down the violence by cooperating with the Palestinian Authority, which Israel says must rein in terrorists if peace talks were to be renewed.

“I believe the Palestinians in Gaza are different from the other Arabs,” he said. “They are on a higher level. If they have economic capabilities and would be able to make an honorable living, they will calm down. I believe in a new Middle East. That is why I continue to live in Nahal Oz.”

Caught in the crossfire

Levy helped found Kibbutz Nahal Oz, one of Israel's oldest communal fams, in 1953, where several Israeli Knesset members have resided in the past.

Egypt was at war with the Jewish state at the time and controlled the Gaza Strip until Israel captured it in the 1967 Six-Day War and the Egyptians pulled out of the territory.

Levy said he remembers how tensions flared along the border in the 1950s, with Nahal Oz caught in the crossfire. Egyptian troops killed three of his friends in 1956, while two more died in 1969 after stepping on a land mine, he said.

“We in the kibbutz are no strangers to wars and battles,” Levy said. “The first years after we came here were very tough, enormously stressful. There were ambushes every night. Every time we would patrol the border the Egyptians would bomb the farm.”

(06.02.05, 18:51)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3094173,00.html

Mediocrates
06-02-2005, 02:43 PM
Did he, will he, or would he?

Ophra
06-02-2005, 03:02 PM
Did he, will he, or would he?

Dunno Medio.... but I would .

KettleWhistle
06-02-2005, 03:05 PM
Good, go for it! Leave people who actually love Israel alone.

Leon
06-02-2005, 06:17 PM
Dunno Medio.... but I would .

you would give up you're home for peace? now Oprah I can finally see some credibility in you're argument for disengagement - without a hint of hypocrisy. So when are you leavin Israel for the diaspora?

NewsGuy
06-02-2005, 08:32 PM
Israeli who lives near the Gaza border says he would relinquish his own home if it meant peace with the Palestinians, ...

But, actually, leaving his home would only make it more convenient for the Arabs to make war, not peace. That's the problem.

Ophra
06-02-2005, 08:38 PM
So when are you leavin Israel for the diaspora?


Never.

We are talking about moving a few kilometers and being hugely compensated for it ..... who said anything about leaving the country. ???

Ophra
06-02-2005, 08:43 PM
But, actually, leaving his home would only make it more convenient for the Arabs to make war, not peace. That's the problem.

That's your opinion.... many think otherwise .... including the leader of my country and yours.
Whatever ... it's at least worth trying ... Peace is worth trying anything.

KettleWhistle
06-02-2005, 09:35 PM
Cutting off your legs will bring peace. Please try that. After all, "peace is worth trying anything."

Ophra
06-02-2005, 10:20 PM
Cutting off your legs will bring peace. Please try that. After all, "peace is worth trying anything."

Would someone kindly explain to me how to put KettleWhistle on ignore.

Perhaps this is the time to question the wisdom of making such an individual a moderator NewsGuy ?? :confused:

NewsGuy
06-02-2005, 10:21 PM
KW, dude...


That's your opinion.... many think otherwise .... including the leader of my country and yours.
Whatever ... it's at least worth trying ... Peace is worth trying anything.
Right, nobody can predict the future with certainty, but based on the events of the past 100 years and based on what the Palestinians are now saying, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and rewarding terrorism will only bring another wave of Palestinian attacks, not peace.

This is not only my opinion, but also that of General Moshe Yaalon, who is speaking very openly now that he finished his service as IDF Chief of Staff.

Here's what he said last night: "Immediately after the disengagement, we can expect a burst of terrorism - especially in Judea and Samaria... All the signs point to [a renewal of terrorism]."


If there was a real hope for peace, we would be looking at a mutual withdrawal in the framework of an overall peace agreement, not something that is already being seen as a unilateral escape.

And Sharon himself is not saying that this will bring peace. Instead he is saying that the IDF cannot stop the Palestinians from mass-murdering the Jews living in Gaza, so he will forcefully remove the Jews.

In fact, Bush also does not think that this escape from Gaza will lead to peace. Instead, he is insisting on returning to the Road Map for a comprehensive solution.

Ophra
06-02-2005, 11:08 PM
KW, dude...


Right, nobody can predict the future with certainty, but based on the events of the past 100 years and based on what the Palestinians are now saying, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and rewarding terrorism will only bring another wave of Palestinian attacks, not peace.

This is not only my opinion, but also that of General Moshe Yaalon, who is speaking very openly now that he finished his service as IDF Chief of Staff.

Here's what he said last night: "Immediately after the disengagement, we can expect a burst of terrorism - especially in Judea and Samaria... All the signs point to [a renewal of terrorism]."


If there was a real hope for peace, we would be looking at a mutual withdrawal in the framework of an overall peace agreement, not something that is already being seen as a unilateral escape.

And Sharon himself is not saying that this will bring peace. Instead he is saying that the IDF cannot stop the Palestinians from mass-murdering the Jews living in Gaza, so he will forcefully remove the Jews.

In fact, Bush also does not think that this escape from Gaza will lead to peace. Instead, he is insisting on returning to the Road Map for a comprehensive solution.

Hmmmmmmmmm ...... let me think about an answer for a bit .

Read this in the meantime :
http://www.bitterlemons.org/issue/isr2.php

I don't understand this part ... "" we would be looking at a mutual withdrawal in ""..... ???? :confused:

Mediocrates
06-03-2005, 04:50 AM
Never.

We are talking about moving a few kilometers and being hugely compensated for it ..... who said anything about leaving the country. ???

I don't know how to look at that. All the time people are moved because of construction projects, toxic waste, military factors, floods, landslides, eminent domain, etc. Most people don't go willingly even with compensation which is typically far below the 'market value', equity or the sunk costs. To say nothing of the compensation associated with the inconvenience, etc.. I would say that people rarely walk away from such a deal happy about it.

Mediocrates
06-03-2005, 04:51 AM
Would someone kindly explain to me how to put KettleWhistle on ignore.

Perhaps this is the time to question the wisdom of making such an individual a moderator NewsGuy ?? :confused:


You can put anyone on ignore - User CP option.

Mediocrates
06-03-2005, 04:52 AM
That's your opinion.... many think otherwise .... including the leader of my country and yours.
Whatever ... it's at least worth trying ... Peace is worth trying anything.


Said Sitting Bull to the US Army.

Mediocrates
06-03-2005, 04:58 AM
Though it's important as always to define your terms. Peace means something different in Copenhagen than it does in Israel. In Copenhagen peace means peace. In Israel means "a managable acceptable level of periodic atrocities, violence and abuses". No more no less. So the important comparison is what you give up in relation to that kind of peace. People might do all sorts of things for perfect storybook lamb lies down with the lion peace but the likelihood of that is near zero. What are you willing to sacrifice for, say, a 50% reduction in violence? I think it's not 'anything'.

KettleWhistle
06-03-2005, 11:57 AM
KW, dude...

Sorry if ticked somebody, but I was making a point. The intial article and a number of the reponses really indicate a degradation in the moral and cultural fabric of the Israeli society. The very notion of treating a part of our homeland as a barganing chip that can be considered as a give-away to anyone, friend or foe, is just obsene. It shows how any notion of patriotism, love for one's country/homeland, and love for one's people is erradicating as a result of this despicable propaganda. This isn't about peace. It is about immoral politicians, like Rabin (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44), fighting for power by pitting Jews against one another. Such sentiment deserves nothing short of snidious contempt and a good smack on the back of the head.

Leon
06-04-2005, 01:44 PM
Never.

We are talking about moving a few kilometers and being hugely compensated for it ..... who said anything about leaving the country. ???


ure living on occuppied territory

Ophra
06-07-2005, 03:04 AM
Hmmmmmmmmm ...... let me think about an answer for a bit .

Read this in the meantime :
http://www.bitterlemons.org/issue/isr2.php

I don't understand this part ... "" we would be looking at a mutual withdrawal in ""..... ???? :confused:

Newsguy ,

I want to answer this but could you just explain this part first please ??.....


I don't understand this part ... "" we would be looking at a mutual withdrawal in ""..... ????