High Court: Pullout legal, Gaza not part of Israel

[sharonbn]

An expanded panel of the High Court on Thursday upheld the government's plan to withdraw from Gaza and parts of the West Bank, removing a major legal obstacle to the pullout.

The 11-judge panel headed by Chief Justice Aharon Barak also determined that "Judea and Samaria [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel."

The panel rejected 12 petitions by opponents to the withdrawal from all Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements, ruling the pullout can go ahead as planned and does not violate the settlers' human rights.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/586419.html

[Gilgamesh]

An expanded panel of the High Court on Thursday upheld the government's plan to withdraw from Gaza and parts of the West Bank, removing a major legal obstacle to the pullout.

The 11-judge panel headed by Chief Justice Aharon Barak also determined that "Judea and Samaria [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel."

The panel rejected 12 petitions by opponents to the withdrawal from all Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements, ruling the pullout can go ahead as planned and does not violate the settlers' human rights.



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/586419.html

As soon as the judges finshed they sentence, each pulled out a little red flag with a yellow sickle and hammer. No body of right mind, would think differently about the courts.

Israel is the only country in the world, where judges appoint each other to possitions, and all the judges are in fact belong to one extended family. The high court Hammula are know for their anti Zionist opinions.

[Ophra]

As soon as the judges finshed they sentence, each pulled out a little red flag with a yellow sickle and hammer. No body of right mind, would think differently about the courts.

Israel is the only country in the world, where judges appoint each other to possitions, and all the judges are in fact belong to one extended family. The high court Hammula are know for their anti Zionist opinions.

Absolute rubbish :rolleyes: .... why don't you all go create your own State seeing how nothing is right with the one we have ????

This is an important decision and not to be trivialised ....

"" The verdict also noted that the lands of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not legally included within the borders of the State of Israel, and Israel does not have jurisdiction over these territories. ""

[SjocoSjon]

http://www.comnix.nl/june09gaza.html

[Gilgamesh]

Absolute rubbish :rolleyes: .... why don't you all go create your own State seeing how nothing is right with the one we have ????
Fear the day we will make good use of your suggestion. We will leave you under an "enlighted" Arab ragime, so you could feel good as advanced and as progressive as you wish...

"" The verdict also noted that the lands of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not legally included within the borders of the State of Israel, and Israel does not have jurisdiction over these territories. "" Seems the court is picky about when to impose his jurastiction in the territories and when to ignore... typical double standards.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.comnix.nl/june09gaza.html


How charming next thing ya know the EU will declare that Israeli body parts raining down from the sky is an illegal deposting of toxic waste too.

[minusthejihad]

http://www.comnix.nl/june09gaza.html

whatever dude

[Mediocrates]

I wonder though under what jurisdiction your courts imagine they can enforce the right to do or not do something to the people who are there? If the state has no legitimate jursidiction then it would appear to be a sort of legal no man's land in Gaza. Does that mean that according to the court's ruling you would have to evacuate the IDF and only the IDF immediately? Does that mean that you must sever utilities; water, gas, power and sewer immediately? It would appear so since only the jurisdiction is illegal and not civilians who happen to live there. I particularly like the 'seized during warfare' part since that would tend to void, by there own definition any enlargment to Israel after 1947. I would suggest that if you have any property in Jerusalem you put it up for sale soon. Here ya go - the new Israel

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/partmap.html

[varian]

The weaponry that can now be employed by Arab states against Israel is far more deadly than what could be employed in the late 1940's. Both the Gaza and Golan are essential to the security of Israel in this new century. It is a very dangerous move to give these areas up for some "political" solution.

[Mediocrates]

Does the Israeli legal system have any notion of case law or precident or 'constitutionality' such as it is? Or do they just pull decisions out of their ears?

[SteveK]

Absolute rubbish :rolleyes: .... why don't you all go create your own State seeing how nothing is right with the one we have ????

This is an important decision and not to be trivialised ....

"" The verdict also noted that the lands of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not legally included within the borders of the State of Israel, and Israel does not have jurisdiction over these territories. ""


Hi Ophra:

Based on our current land holdings, I assume that the following prophecy was
fulfilled:

Zechariah (2:16)

... HASHEM will take Judah as His heritage, His portion upon the Holy Land, and He will choose Jerusalem again. ...

The fulfillment of this prophecy seems to be a very decisive milestone for some next events in the future as revealed by Zechariah (2:14 - 4:7).

By the way, this section of Zechariah (2:14 - 4:7) is the upcoming HafTarah
to be read on the Shabbat of June 18, 2005.

[varian]

The 11-judge panel headed by Chief Justice Aharon Barak also determined that "Judea and Samaria [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/586419.html[/url]

This would mean Israel ceding all rights to Jerusalem as well, wouldn't it? This can't be considered a serious option, can it? Give up the secure areas of Gaza and Golan, and then rip the heart and soul (Jerusalem) from Israel - it seems that Israel will cease to be Israel. What's next; free tickets to Auschwitz???

[Carmi]

The weaponry that can now be employed by Arab states against Israel is far more deadly than what could be employed in the late 1940's. Both the Gaza and Golan are essential to the security of Israel in this new century. It is a very dangerous move to give these areas up for some "political" solution.
Gaza isnt exactly essential to the security of Israel--we can live without it. Basically the only security issue you would face is terrorists could use it as a platform for launching attacks and stockpile weapons closer to Israel. Dont get me wrong though, Im against the pullout.
The West Bank is the most strategically important mass of the area, it is the high ground of Israel and quassams launched from it can reach most of Tel Aviv, and the SA-7 would be in range of Ben-Gurion Airport. Next of course would be the Golan, because it looks down upon Israels interior. I believe you could live without the Golan if you had the West Bank, but theres no way I would advocate giving it up in exchange for "peace" with Syria.

[FOGOMAINS]

Gaza isnt exactly essential to the security of Israel--we can live without it. Basically the only security issue you would face is terrorists could use it as a platform for launching attacks and stockpile weapons closer to Israel. Dont get me wrong though, Im against the pullout.
The West Bank is the most strategically important mass of the area, it is the high ground of Israel and quassams launched from it can reach most of Tel Aviv, and the SA-7 would be in range of Ben-Gurion Airport. Next of course would be the Golan, because it looks down upon Israels interior. I believe you could live without the Golan if you had the West Bank, but theres no way I would advocate giving it up in exchange for "peace" with Syria.

I hope that Israel will not give up WB and the Golan. You are right, these areas will be used for terrorists activities only. Negotiations with Arabs and especially the PA are useless. They never kept agrrements.

[eyl]

Seems the court is picky about when to impose his jurastiction in the territories and when to ignore... typical double standards.

The Court ruled in accordance with Israeli law - since Israel never annexed the West Bank or Gaza (unlike Jerusalem and the Golan), they are not - by Israeli law - Israeli territory (note that the decision distinguishes between annexed and non-annexed territory)

[Gilgamesh]

Gaza isnt exactly essential to the security of Israel--we can live without it. Tell it to the people living in Ashkelon, next year.
Or would Israel ignore them too, as Israel's goverment ignored the people of Kiriyat Shmona and Sderot.

Basically the only security issue you would face is terrorists could use it as a platform for launching attacks and stockpile weapons closer to Israel. stock piles that can kill hundreds!!!

Dont get me wrong though, Im against the pullout.Good!!!

Next of course would be the Golan, because it looks down upon Israels interior. I believe you could live without the Golan if you had the West Bank, but theres no way I would advocate giving it up in exchange for "peace" with Syria.You can live without the rest of Israel out side Tel Aviv, but in what price?
Is it moral to die in a defensive war, over a piece of ground, like Sinai that was already conquered and fought for 4 times before (1948,1956,1967, 1973). Is it wise to give a way a piece of land many Israeli already died for, only so more Israeli will die for the next time?

[windowlicker]

Absolute rubbish :rolleyes: .... why don't you all go create your own State seeing how nothing is right with the one we have ????

This is an important decision and not to be trivialised ....

"" The verdict also noted that the lands of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are not legally included within the borders of the State of Israel, and Israel does not have jurisdiction over these territories. ""

it definitely aint rubbish, missy. stop defending your little aryan-themed team of CORRUPT elitists, because that is exactly what they are. they couldnt give two spits about any of the settlers or religious people in this country. but then again, of course youll defend them. after all, you are probably from the same family.

sickening. they are just as guilty and fascist as the religious extremits who praid for rabins death.

[Ophra]

it definitely aint rubbish, missy. stop defending your little aryan-themed team of CORRUPT elitists, because that is exactly what they are. they couldnt give two spits about any of the settlers or religious people in this country. but then again, of course youll defend them. after all, you are probably from the same family.

sickening. they are just as guilty and fascist as the religious extremits who praid for rabins death.

:D

.... it's rubbish ... yup you are right, we don't... "give two spits about any of the settlers or religious people in this country. but then again, of course youll defend them. after all, you are probably from the same family. " ;) :)

[SteveK]

:D

.... it's rubbish ... yup you are right, we don't... "give two spits about any of the settlers or religious people in this country. but then again, of course youll defend them. after all, you are probably from the same family. " ;) :)


Bear in mind that Ophra has also enlightened us with the fact that her husband is a high ranking IDF officer, and that he reads the forum here.
Even these "anonymous" postings from Ophra should indicate some very sick goings on in the highest levels of the Israeli Government,- and the message of which is attenuated that much more strongly given her arrogance obviously stemming from such a supportive "high ranking IDF officer" husband.

Some caged birds have been known to immitate some shocking truths about their masters.

[windowlicker]

:D

.... it's rubbish ... yup you are right, we don't... "give two spits about any of the settlers or religious people in this country. but then again, of course youll defend them. after all, you are probably from the same family. "

listen, i think its time someone came along and put you in your place.

before i delve into the contents of your professed political opinions, and why they infuriate so many people here, you should know that you write with an extremely arrogant tone. get out of this laughable illusion that you are better than everyone else because your grandparents came here a long time ago, or that you have more of a say because you were born in israel, because that, my dear, is utter bull. it doesnt earn you any special privelages.

i find your approach to the jewish religion disgusting. its not that you are satisfied with this place being governed as a democracy, one in which people may choose to not keep the religion if they please (exactly as it should be), but that youd also rather see israel completely drained from its jewish heritage. you dont want our country to even look jewish, and the symbolicism means nothing to you. this isnt how israel was founded, and the vast majority of israeli citizens would probably fiercely disagree with you. most people want this place to have a jewish atmosphere, one that publicly commemorates our holidays. ;) :)

another issue: your treatment of setllers and religious citizens of israel is also quite insulting. you speak of them as though they are inferior or irrelevant. even if you dont believe or keep judaism (which is a-ok by me, i myself am not religious) you should at least have a little love and respect for them. instead, you go the extra mile in the opposite direction. in order to show how new-age and progressive you are, you choose to hate them. however, it doesnt help your cause one bit, and sometimes it seems like a facade.

on the other hand, i really like your signature about yigal amir and orthodox jews. why? because i believe its something that we must never forget. a jew killing another jew is intolerable and shameful. furthermore, if its done by a religious, orthodox man then we really are in trouble. thats not how an orthodox jew is supposed to behave. thank you for reminding us.

[Sheherazade]

Why is it worse if a Jew kills another Jew?

[windowlicker]

Why is it worse if a Jew kills another Jew?

because one of the most important things that we must keep and maintain in our nation is unity. no matter which country a jew has originally come from, or what belief he follows, or what his political opinions are, there should be a certain level of tolerance and love for that person. doesnt matter if you dont believe in God or if you are an ultra chasidic rabbi-- you are still part of this big special family.

the idea of hurting another jew, getting into a fist fight with him, or even cursing him, is unbearable for me. it actually hurts me to watch demonstrations in gush katif, where soldiers and settlers scream and push each other.

[Sheherazade]

because one of the most important things that we must keep and maintain in our nation is unity. no matter which country a jew has originally come from, or what belief he follows, or what his political opinions are, there should be a certain level of tolerance and love for that person. doesnt matter if you dont believe in God or if you are an ultra chasidic rabbi-- you are still part of this big special family.

the idea of hurting another jew, getting into a fist fight with him, or even cursing him, is unbearable for me. it actually hurts me to watch demonstrations in gush katif, where soldiers and settlers scream and push each other.

How would you feel (be honest with yourself) if you read the same thing except instead of the word "Jew" you substituted the word "Arab"? I can't understand supporting a person if he has done something reprehensible, just because of his ethnicity or religion or political leanings. There is no excuse for bad behavior no matter who.

My big special family is the family of the human race. Yes, there are some black sheep, but they come in all shapes and sizes......even Jewish.

[Mediocrates]

People who are the overwhelming majority don't get to vassilate like. Are you saying minority rights simply don't exist or don't matter? It's like the Bible Belters I live around. They tell me all the time "Why can't everyone be just like us....we'd all get along." Well sorry, but no. Just today I heard that the Southern Sudanese leader and 1st Vice President was killed in an accident. This comes on the heels of 20 years of civil war after the muslim north tried to impose Sharia on the whole country. I'm sure they too felt that if everyone just went along they'd all be better off too.

[Ophra]

listen, i think its time someone came along and put you in your place.

before i delve into the contents of your professed political opinions, and why they infuriate so many people here, you should know that you write with an extremely arrogant tone. get out of this laughable illusion that you are better than everyone else because your grandparents came here a long time ago, or that you have more of a say because you were born in israel, because that, my dear, is utter bull. it doesnt earn you any special privelages.

i find your approach to the jewish religion disgusting. its not that you are satisfied with this place being governed as a democracy, one in which people may choose to not keep the religion if they please (exactly as it should be), but that youd also rather see israel completely drained from its jewish heritage. you dont want our country to even look jewish, and the symbolicism means nothing to you. this isnt how israel was founded, and the vast majority of israeli citizens would probably fiercely disagree with you. most people want this place to have a jewish atmosphere, one that publicly commemorates our holidays.

another issue: your treatment of setllers and religious citizens of israel is also quite insulting. you speak of them as though they are inferior or irrelevant. even if you dont believe or keep judaism (which is a-ok by me, i myself am not religious) you should at least have a little love and respect for them. instead, you go the extra mile in the opposite direction. in order to show how new-age and progressive you are, you choose to hate them. however, it doesnt help your cause one bit, and sometimes it seems like a facade.

on the other hand, i really like your signature about yigal amir and orthodox jews. why? because i believe its something that we must never forget. a jew killing another jew is intolerable and shameful. furthermore, if its done by a religious, orthodox man then we really are in trouble. thats not how an orthodox jew is supposed to behave. thank you for reminding us.

A few points ....

"" but that youd also rather see israel completely drained from its jewish heritage. you dont want our country to even look jewish, and the symbolicism means nothing to you. this isnt how israel was founded, and the vast majority of israeli citizens would probably fiercely disagree with you. most people want this place to have a jewish atmosphere, one that publicly commemorates our holidays ""

Not true ... I have a flag flying outside my front door ... and blue ribbons flying from my car's antenna.
I commemorate all of our national holidays .... maybe not the way you do ... but they are important for us to .

"" another issue: your treatment of setllers and religious citizens of israel is also quite insulting. you speak of them as though they are inferior or irrelevant. even if you dont believe or keep judaism (which is a-ok by me, i myself am not religious) you should at least have a little love and respect for them. instead, you go the extra mile in the opposite direction. in order to show how new-age and progressive you are, you choose to hate them. however, it doesnt help your cause one bit, and sometimes it seems like a facade.""

I don't hate them .... there again I have no love or respect for them ... why should I ?????

I am all for religious and political freedom ... I believe strongly in democracy and tolerance ... that goes also for our Christian and Muslim citizens of Israel . I am completely against transfer of anyone ;)

Now your religious settlers are of a different mind set my friend ..... not only are they racist and intolerant they also want to bring down our government . Political assassination is not enough for them ... they would destroy our way of life given a chance...... sorry... but... they are not getting that chance.

Kindly read here and tell me about how tolerant "they" are :
... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3121144,00.html

[Ophra]

Bear in mind that Ophra has also enlightened us with the fact that her husband is a high ranking IDF officer, and that he reads the forum here.
Even these "anonymous" postings from Ophra should indicate some very sick goings on in the highest levels of the Israeli Government,- and the message of which is attenuated that much more strongly given her arrogance obviously stemming from such a supportive "high ranking IDF officer" husband.

Some caged birds have been known to immitate some shocking truths about their masters.

Youre a total fruit and nut case Steve :D

[Ophra]

Here is one just for you Steve :)
..........

The Bathsheba model

What can pullout objectors learn from King David?

Truth is that we've had it. We've had it with the daily threats to turn the country upside down; we've had it with the calls for protest marches into the Gaza strip, in a single column, two or three. Since Mussolini marched into Rome in 1922, there was no such bold, explicit attempt to change a leadership's legal decision.

We've had it with the sieges of entire populations in the southern parts of the country; we've had it with Yesha Council members' arrogance, their disregard to the civil obligation to receive a permit to demonstrate, and the bi-weekly adventures they lead their public into, releasing themselves, in advance, from responsibility for their consequences.

In short: the time come for settler leaders to decide what they are after – thwarting the disengagement or protesting against it. If they seek to protest, so be it, let them voice their disapproval everywhere. That is their right and their duty. But, if they intend to put a halt to the process, if they are trying, by using their public, to overturn the government's decision, then these Mussolinis must be stopped.

The trouble is that they try to have the cake and eat it too: They threaten they'll tear down the fence but complain their buses are stopped en route. Some do it out of habit: they've been having the proverbial cake and keeping it, for many years. Others are confused: they convinced themselves that evacuating Gaza Strip settlements is a disaster, a catastrophe that justifies all follies.

'Slander is permitted'

One important rabbi from Alon Shvut, named Yisrael Rosen , suggested in a leaflet distributed this past weekend in synagogues, to organize a new mass demonstration: "I (also) call on the settlers to consider surrendering – folding up the orange flag, replacing it with a black one to be flown at half mast, and wave white (not blue-and-white) flags – and then go into exile."

"I do not know how people go to exile," Rosen wrote. "I call on the settler leaders in Gaza to ask that all Israelis gather in Gush Katif, hold a mass mourning ceremony and proceed to march toward exile – turn off the light in Gaza, and turn on the light in our hearts…I call to put an end to the “social discourse” between right- and left-wing activists and between religious and secular Jews."

Seemingly, moderate words; instead of protest marches to nowhere, a ceremony which practically symbolizes the acceptance of a painful reality. But, note the terminology: Eretz Israel starts at Elei Sinai and ends in Rafah. All the rest, Nitznim, Zefad, Tiberias, J-e-r-u-s-a-l-e-m, are exile. It seems that the most extreme leftists do not dare say what this rabbi, knight of (post) religious Zionism, did.

Or another important rabbi, less moderate, Eliezer Melamed, who publishes a column in the Nationalistic ultra-Orthodox newspaper "Besheva" answering readers questions about religious issues. One question referred to negative comments about a government minister and an IDF officer published in the paper. The reader wondered if such words constituted "Leshon Ha'ra" (slander).

The rabbi reassured her: "Slander is permitted when it’s beneficial.”

In the demonstration preceding the last protest march, in Netivot, the organizers asked men and women to gather in separate areas divided by a screen. People ignored the request. The next morning, in Kfar Maimon, the hormone level of the "orange" youths skyrocketed. Those concerned for the National-Zionist maidens' purity, must have shuddered.

Following David’s example?

I only mentioned this heartwarming intimacy because a senior IDF officer told me he has had it. He has had it with the moralistic lectures of the rabbis who harass the IDF because male and female soldiers serve in the same units. "From now on," the officer said, "we will follow their example. We will use our female soldiers like they use their girls in the demonstrations."

The Gush Katif settlements are doomed. The first to realize this are the settlers. It will be a shame if they lose other valuable assets fighting for a lost cause. Primarily, their common sense. ;)

Eventually, we will behave like King David, one of the settlers' leaders tried to ease my fears. David fornicated with Bathsheba. Punishment soon followed: their child died. And this is what David did, according to Samuel II 12:

"Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. His servants asked him, 'Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!'

He replied, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

David's next act, according to the bible, was very constructive: "Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and lay with her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon. The lord loved him."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3121063,00.html

[Ophra]

...... and one for the rest of you :D

The blood will be on your hands

What the settlers are preparing for this evening in Sderot is not a demonstration but a revolt. A putsch. A declaration of war on the democratic system of government, to be exact.

This Friday's issue of the right-wing paper Hatzofeh was nothing short of a war whoop. "The object is to keep the calamity called disengagement from happening by having people infiltrate Gush Katif all day and all night to aid our courageous brethren," the paper states. There is even a detailed map showing three routes from Sderot, Ofakim and Netivot they plan to use to reach the army checkpoint at Kissufim.

These glorious battle plans remind me of the joke about the little old lady who was helped across the road by a dozen boy scouts. A dozen of them? Why so many, the scoutmaster was asked. Because she didn't want to go, he replied.

It's not that the residents of Gush Katif are so happy to leave, but most of them realize their fate is signed and sealed, and they are focusing on what lies ahead. The Yesha chiefs are fighting the next war, against the evacuation of the West Bank settlements, on their backs. The way they're gearing up for a clash with the "Sharon family cops," you'd think it was Don Corleone and his capo di tutti capi out there.

What they really want is to get back at the authorities for ruining their march from Kfar Maimon to Kissufim. Their estimate is that if it took 25,000 soldiers and policemen to keep them from blocking one road, it will take 75,000 to keep them from blocking three roads. The tactic they have in mind is to create three infiltration points that will keep as many soldiers and policemen busy as possible and paralyze the country.

Revolting comparisons, to the Nazis, for instance, and rabid incitement against Sharon personally, have created a mood that allows the biggest loonies to see nothing wrong with bumping him off, with or without graveyard voodoo ceremonies.

Hatzofeh even hired a psychologist-graphologist who, on the basis of an unsigned letter, declared Sharon a screwed-up, selfish, bullying, dishonest person with strong destructive tendencies, lacking all sense of responsibility or proportion in what he does. In short, a certified mental case. Quite a few people are convinced that no matter what precautions he takes, he is going to get himself assassinated in the end, by someone who wants to stop the evacuation.

Like in the new Turkey, the army has become the defender of Israeli democracy. The Land of Israel loonies know that in order to topple the democratic system, first they have to knock out the defense system. My computer keys rattle and shake as I type these words, but it's the truth. To stop the disengagement from Gaza and keep it from spreading to Judea and Samaria, these people are prepared to take on the army and the police, without which the elected government is shorn and powerless.

The odious link between the Kahane fanatics and the Yesha council diehards pretends to be about fighting for the freedom to demonstrate and the right to protest. As if anyone would stop them from organizing a mass rally at Rabin Square, the Knesset plaza or outside the offices of the government. But what they are planning is not a rally. It's war.

How would they react, for instance, if the left decided to mark the tenth anniversary of Rabin's murder with a march through the territories, mowing down a couple of settlements along the way? Would anyone consider that a sane thing to do?

Dear settlers: For all the thousands of extremists on your side, there are millions of Israelis who haven't taken to the streets to show their desire for a peace agreement and permanent borders. How about a little gratitude toward this democratic state that has protected you, spoiled you rotten and poured endless resources into your settlements?

For 37 years, you were the most pampered sector in the country. While you built villas, poverty and unemployment have multiplied inside the Green Line. The same Sharon you are cursing now will battle someday to keep most of your settlement clusters intact. But when it comes to Gaza, the game is up.

A gathering of tens of thousands of protesters, with wives and children in tow, putting themselves within firing range of Palestinian mortars, proves that as hatred grows, brains shrivel. Turning Sderot into one of the departure points for Gush Katif may inspire Palestinian hotheads to lob a few Qassams in that direction and turn the orange into red. If that should happen, the blood spilled will be on your hands - and not for the first time.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/607656.html

[windowlicker]

look, i agree with you that murder is always a bad thing, no matter who it is. i think all human beings are equal and should never use violence. its just that in my nation, the jewish nation, the issue seems much more urgent to me. in other words, it deserves much more attention.

How would you feel (be honest with yourself) if you read the same thing except instead of the word "Jew" you substituted the word "Arab"? I can't understand supporting a person if he has done something reprehensible, just because of his ethnicity or religion or political leanings. There is no excuse for bad behavior no matter who.

My big special family is the family of the human race. Yes, there are some black sheep, but they come in all shapes and sizes......even Jewish.

[Gilgamesh]

Bear in mind that Ophra has also enlightened us with the fact that her husband is a high ranking IDF officer, and that he reads the forum here.
Even these "anonymous" postings from Ophra should indicate some very sick goings on in the highest levels of the Israeli Government,- and the message of which is attenuated that much more strongly given her arrogance obviously stemming from such a supportive "high ranking IDF officer" husband.

Some caged birds have been known to immitate some shocking truths about their masters.

A Seren (eq. to Captain) in not a high ranking level in the army. Good percent of the Israeli population holds this rank or higher.

Besides, just because Ophra says something, it doesn't make it true.

Again, best for your own peace of mind is to ignore this revolting person, Ophra. She is obviously a pristess in the St. Rabin worship cult. You can't get sense out of these people any way.

[Ophra]

A Seren (eq. to Captain) in not a high ranking level in the army. Good percent of the Israeli population holds this rank or higher.

Besides, just because Ophra says something, it doesn't make it true.

Again, best for your own peace of mind is to ignore this revolting person, Ophra.

You are right Gil ....... you are sooooooooooooooo right Gil :D

[windowlicker]

A Seren (eq. to Captain) in not a high ranking level in the army. Good percent of the Israeli population holds this rank or higher.

Besides, just because Ophra says something, it doesn't make it true.

Again, best for your own peace of mind is to ignore this revolting person, Ophra. She is obviously a pristess in the St. Rabin worship cult. You can't get sense out of these people any way.

i dont want to ignore her and i dont think she is revolting. i do, however, wish that she would show just a little more compassion and understanding.

[Ophra]

i dont want to ignore her and i dont think she is revolting. i do, however, wish that she would show just a little more compassion and understanding.

Where was the compassion and understanding when they murdered Rabin ??

You people have no idea what you did to us that evening .... it is burned into our collective memories forever ..... you killed him but you cannot kill what he believed.

[windowlicker]

Where was the compassion and understanding when they murdered Rabin ??

You people have no idea what you did to us that evening .... it is burned into our collective memories forever ..... you killed him but you cannot kill what he believed.

look, i strongly disagreed with his stragies and beliefs, but (once again) i also wholeheartedly agree that murdering rabin was a huge mistake, a barbaric act, and over all a chilul hashem. it was a very sad day. the most longlasting and negative effect of this tragedy is that secular jews in israel might see this as the face of orthodox judaism or they are convinced that settlers are really like this. if a poll were conducted within the religious sectors, youd find that most of them are ashamed of yigal amir. and no, a study by mina tzemach would not do, mainly because she isnt trustworthy. im sure that shed manipulate the results to better suit her cause.

as for the article on ynet about the debate in nitzan. i dont really see a problem. some of them would rather live in a fully religious neighborhood. others (most of them, in fact) are satisfied with the current solution of of placing the secular residents by the road so that they could drive freely on shabat without disturbing anyone.

finally and most importantly, how would the residents of ramat aviv feel if a bunch of religious people decided to start a community there? they would hate the idea, now wouldnt they? i imagine, actually i *know*, that their reaction would be louder, verbally more violent, and overall less understanding.

after all, your article wasnt a good choice. it meant nothing.

[Ophra]

I'm sorry windowlicker..... but it's too late .
It's 10 years too late.

Go talk to the leftists .... they love to forgive ;)

We , on the other hand , are a force to deal with :D

[Mediocrates]

So is the high court prepared to give up Jerusalem too? Doesn't it fall under the same category they described? I certainly hope that what's good for the goose......?

[sharonbn]

Jerusalem was annexed by Israel in 1988

[Mediocrates]

Ah so it's pretty much whatever's convenient. Maybe the Arabs have it right and you take and discard whatever it is that satisfies you and the hell with whatever anyone else says. Seems patently unfair. It also seems that the fence would therefore be illegal if it stands on one foot of any land that was not held by Israel prior to 1967. It should immediately come down. All the land should be surrendered - except of course for any land on on al Quds, I mean Jerusalem, which is, as you noted occupied under unilateral annexation.

[redcake]

Exactly Medio, now you're coming around. The way to conquer anti-semitism is by demolishing the Jewish religion itself....and the way to defeat Israels enemies is to abolish with the notion of an Israeli State entirely. I mean. Duh.

[sharonbn]

Ah so it's pretty much whatever's convenient. Maybe the Arabs have it right and you take and discard whatever it is that satisfies you and the hell with whatever anyone else says. Seems patently unfair. It also seems that the fence would therefore be illegal if it stands on one foot of any land that was not held by Israel prior to 1967. It should immediately come down. All the land should be surrendered - except of course for any land on on al Quds, I mean Jerusalem, which is, as you noted occupied under unilateral annexation.
There we go again with the same discussion tactics: you attack with full force with disregard to what is actually being said or the tone.

You asked about the high court, about how "far" it will go in "giving up" land to the arabs.

So I give a truthful answer. The high court's job is to uphold the Israeli law, as it is set by the Israeli parliament. Of course the judges give interpratation to the law, but as long as Gaza is not annexed, it is not part of Israel. The court is yet to be asked to give its opinion on J'em, but that plece has a different status as much as the Israeli law says.

So maybe there is something wrong with how Israeli parliament treats occpied land, maybe the law reflects the difference in emotional attachment between the biblical city that housed the temple of God, and a desert region currently populated with 99.8% of foreign people. yeah I know, its indeed a subtle difference.

But no matter what the other guy is saying. You have to keep on with the offense. Its like you response with predetermined text. you just push and push and suddenly the Israelis are blindedly throwing in the air laws and regulations as they see fit, suddenly the high court is making total arbiterary decisions, and lets throw in a sentence about the wall, lets generalize about the entire occupied territories.....

its impossible to make a dialog with you. its just a string of monologs, always on the offense, never mind giving an ANSWER.

Good for you, you've beaten me. you can go on making statements on your own. I won't try to answer any more.

[SteveK]

A Seren (eq. to Captain) in not a high ranking level in the army. Good percent of the Israeli population holds this rank or higher.

Besides, just because Ophra says something, it doesn't make it true.

Again, best for your own peace of mind is to ignore this revolting person, Ophra. She is obviously a pristess in the St. Rabin worship cult. You can't get sense out of these people any way.


I already know that murder, torture, and international piracy are the top priority on the agenda at the top policy making levels of the surrounding degenerate oppressive Arab dictatorial regimes, including that of their proxy for invading Israel, the "Palestinians". I have no illusions about the intentions of these Arabs.

At the top of Ophra's agenda is the destruction of a Jewish Country here.
She has clearly put forward her disdain not only for Jews, but especially for Torah observant Jews, Torah, and God, Himself. I have tried to understand if her problem is just stemming from some deep seated frustrations with the religious communties here. My seven years (1984 - 1991) living on atheist Kibbutzim gave me some insights into the sources of why such people, like Ophra, could have even some very justified and profound frustrations with the population of religious Jews here in Israel. But, now, I am seeing a pattern of pure hatred toward them, and literally rejection of their integration into her ambitions for an Israeli society. Anyway, her target, of this religious population, would never agree to her kind of hellinization of Israel. Though, Ophra and her gang seem ready to bear their fangs and claws toward this end. I would never have believed back then that these Kibbutzniks would be expelling Jews from Jewish land. I believed that they would have pushed for separation of state and religion, but not for an absolute demolition of the Jewish Homeland.

Though, these religious Jews, made into the villains, seem to give Ophra and her gang the needed smokescreen to hide their own sick deficiencies in leadership which is leading to nothing more than surrender to these Arabs, because of their own desperation in finding a solution amidst their bankruptcy in Jewish mindset. And, what a convincing sacrifice to make of these Jews to show the world that the last place that God and Torah are welcomed is in His Own Country, Israel. What better way to convince the world that Ophra and her gang are serious about "getting along" because they are going all out to "go along" with the world's whims. The NAZIS, COMMUNISTS, and ARABS have all used the Jews as the scapegoats to divert attention away from their own corruption and oppression of their own peoples.

Now, or has it been some time in the making, that a group of slimeball Israeli
atheists are using Jews for their own corrupt and oppressive agendas for grabbing power in Israel?

Could Ophra's heroes of Israel's leftist party Shinui, Tommy and Yair Lapid, actually be an Israeli father and son wannabe team of "Saddam and Udi"?

How high up and widespread is this corrupt and oppressive agenda for power grabbing in the Israeli Government? Or, are we just witnessing some phenomena and isolated group of deviants as was the case in the former administration of U.S. President, Richard Nixon, which finally led to his resignation (and deal for a pardon by Gerald Ford), and if not, his definite impeachment, and criminal prosecution?

As they say, "The Fish stinks from the head down". How big of a fish are we really talking about here stinking from the head down?

Can we reach any conclusions from what Ophra is so frantic to get into our heads with her presentation modes of propaganda and psychological warfare?
Of course, expelling Jews from their land with 55,000 soldiers and police support has gone a few steps further than just propaganda and psychological warfare. "Fortifying" Israeli (and very Jewish) populations against Arab missile attacks, instead of eradicating them (the missiles and the Arabs) with Israeli firepower aimed at the source, certainly speaks also about a very big fish with the most detestable stench from the head down,- rotting from capitulation to a hostile world's whims, and the assassination of our Jewish character which took us through 35+ centuries.

From Abraham to Arik.

God, for the sake of Your Name!

[Mediocrates]

Nothing of the sort. But you would have to examine the legal precidents, if in fact there are any at all for annexing Jerusalem in the first place. That is itself the crux of the issue. When it is or was convenient to wave a magic wand over the holy city and say "This is ours, this is Israel" then fine. But it's not, from any identifiable PoV materially different from saying it or not saying it over any other plot of land. What stopped them from annexing Golan? Politics? Population? Climate? What prevented them from annexing Kiryat Arba? You see there's law and then there's law. It just helps to be clear what the political expendiency may have been. So while the Israeli Supreme Court holds that Jerusalem is inviolate, that in and of itself is not representative of any special legal principal. It's simply a matter of what's easy to accomplish. And annexing some other places was not. So good or not, we wish you well and hope that someone somewhere eventually recognizes that Jerusalem is not only Israel, but also the capital. But whatever, the law is as they say, an . It is whatever you make it.

[Mediocrates]

And it's doubly interesting, or karmic if you prefer that "LAW" is exactly the weapon used most effectively against Israel. I'm sure Israel didn't sign on to an ICC that uses vaguely worded unilateral laws against it, but there you have it.

[Gilgamesh]

i dont want to ignore her and i dont think she is revolting. i do, however, wish that she would show just a little more compassion and understanding.
been there, done that, woke up.

[Gilgamesh]

You are right Gil ....... you are sooooooooooooooo right Gil :D

BTW, Ophra, What is ממלשה ??? :confused:

Invented a new word have you? What a clever girl you are... :p

It has been on your signature for ages. I wondered how long would it take you to notice. English is one thing... But Hebrew???

[Gilgamesh]

How would you feel (be honest with yourself) if you read the same thing except instead of the word "Jew" you substituted the word "Arab"? I can't understand supporting a person if he has done something reprehensible, just because of his ethnicity or religion or political leanings. There is no excuse for bad behavior no matter who.

My big special family is the family of the human race. Yes, there are some black sheep, but they come in all shapes and sizes......even Jewish.

This is not the point.
The point is, that there is a Taboo <edited by moderator> against inner fighting among Jews, aspecialy on political matters. We call this Hate of no grounds ("Sin'at Hinam") which is blamed for the lost of Jewish sovereignity in the land of Israel, and the destruction of the Second Temple. For 20 Centuries, we have fanatic intolerance for zealots, of any political strain.

Arabs got nothing to do with anything.

[Ophra]

BTW, Ophra, What is ממלשה ??? :confused:

Invented a new word have you? What a clever girl you are... :p

It has been on your signature for ages. I wondered how long would it take you to notice. English is one thing... But Hebrew???

Must say that you are doing a great job of ignoring me Gil :rolleyes:

[Ophra]

This is not the point.
The point is, that there is a Taboo <edited by moderator> against inner fighting among Jews, aspecialy on political matters. We call this Hate of no grounds ("Sin'at Hinam") which is blamed for the lost of Jewish sovereignity in the land of Israel, and the destruction of the Second Temple. For 20 Centuries, we have fanatic intolerance for zealots, of any political strain.

Arabs got nothing to do with anything.

So what happened to Yigal Amir and his brothers and the whole clan of Khanists ??? ..... were they asleep during that class Gil ???

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh

The point is, that there is a Taboo <edited by moderator> against inner fighting among Jews, aspecialy on political matters. We call this Hate of no grounds ("Sin'at Hinam") which is blamed for the lost of Jewish sovereignity in the land of Israel, and the destruction of the Second Temple. For 20 Centuries, we have fanatic intolerance for zealots, of any political strain.


So what happened to Yigal Amir and his brothers and the whole clan of Khanists ??? ..... were they asleep during that class Gil ???


Ophra,

Who are Yigal Amir and the whole clan of Khanists? Who are all these "Rabbis", with their Jewish voodoo, who believe in God, and use Him, as their rottweiler to unleash for personal vengeance? You don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to smear Orthodox Jews with such low-life aberrant behaviours.

Orthodox Jews are the followers of Moshe Rabbeinu. If you want to pyche-out and prejudice the Israeli populace against the Orthodox Jews, and isolate them as maniacal messianic murderers, then relate about this "Orthodox Jew" who had the merit and relationship with God to evoke His anger against corrupt and power hungry members of the Children of Israel. The problem today is that we don't have any Orthodox Jews on the level of Moses to bring such an end to the treacherous dealings of your tribe:


Numbers (16:25-31):

He [Moses] spoke to the congregation saying, "Please get away from the tents of these wicked men, and do not touch anything of theirs, so that you don't die because of all their sins."

They cleared away from the area of Korach, Dason, and Aviram's home; but Dasan and Aviram came out and stood proudly upright at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, their children, and their infants.

Moses said, "Through this you will know that God authorized me to carry out all of these acts (of appointing the priests), for it was not my idea: If these men die as all men and the fate of all men occurs to them, then (Korach is right and) God has not sent me. But if God creates a new form (of death that you have never seen before), and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them along with everything that belongs to them, and they descend alive into the grave--- then you will know that these men have provoked God."

As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the earth beneath them split open. The earth opened its mouth, swallowing them and their houses, all Korach's people and all their property. They descended alive into the grave with everything they possessed. The earth covered them up, and they were lost to the congregation. All Israel who were around them fled from the sound (of the earth swallowing Korach's men), for they said, "Perhaps the earth will swallow us up (too)!"


But, keep provoking God, as you and your kind do, and He might just open up a fall-semester class to give you and your kind some Torah lessons of your lives.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

Who are Yigal Amir and the whole clan of Khanists? Who are all these "Rabbis", with their Jewish voodoo, who believe in God, and use Him, as their rottweiler to unleash for personal vengeance? You don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to smear Orthodox Jews with such low-life aberrant behaviours.

Orthodox Jews are the followers of Moshe Rabbeinu. If you want to pyche-out and prejudice the Israeli populace against the Orthodox Jews, and isolate them as maniacal messianic murderers, then relate about this "Orthodox Jew" who had the merit and relationship with God to evoke His anger against corrupt and power hungry members of the Children of Israel. The problem today is that we don't have any Orthodox Jews on the level of Moses to bring such an end to the treacherous dealings of your tribe:





But, keep provoking God, as you and your kind do, and He might just open up a fall-semester class to give you and your kind some Torah lessons of your lives.

Here is your answer Steve ............

Miracles in Gush Katif

Belief in miracles bringing redemption is a cause for distress

Secular Jews are convinced logic governs their lives, and are amazed by the thousands of Gush Katif residents’ denial of the disengagement.

It’s true that some are misguided by desires devoid of chance and are often comforted by them, but Gush Katif settlers and their envious supporters are not only hoping for a miracle, they are convinced one will happen.

This devotion to a miracle bringing redemption is cause for great distress, as these devotees are not making the necessary preparations to ease the task of evacuation, and are making it difficult for the authorities required to assist them.

Time passes, the school year starts, tensions rise, the miracle is delayed and they say: This miracle will happen!

The language of logical thinking is silenced by believers, who conduct conversations with non-believers with shining eyes and a forgiving smile, as if talking to those poor souls who never had the benefit of a Jewish education.

It is not a disagreement between people who may find compromise between opposing interests, but rather an attempt to create dialogue between people worlds apart.

One exists according to the laws of nature, while the other is controlled by God, who exists outside of nature but is involved in all that happens within it.

To the secular man, “miracle” is nothing but an incident where the probability of it occurring is extremely low.

However, the believer thinks otherwise. He knows that pure existence is a miracle, and within this large miracle, other exceptional miracles exist.

God performs miracles so the Jewish nation can recognize His existence and strength. But there are also times Jews a called upon to believe in Him without any proof of his presence.

With secularism on the rise, religious followers need to be assisted by their own probability theory – a theory devoid of any mathematical logic, but referred to in layman’s terms as “scientific” and “historical.”

Was our victory in the Six-Day War not a miracle, ask the religious? And what about the small number of injured from the thousands of rockets fired on Gush Katif, was that not also a miracle?

Some secular believe in miracles when faced with exceptional historical events. Even (arch-secularist) David Ben-Gurion once admitted, “ A Jew that does not believe in miracles is not a realistic person.”

The problem with hidden miracles is that it is also hidden with prophecies: Just as we can only know in retrospect whether a prediction is true or not, we also don’t know whether a miracle will come true.

Some say belief in miracles is dependent on its viability to recruit other believers, thus improving its chances of happening. But you will never hear a naïve believers voice this claim..

This demonstrates how easy it is to use psychological manipulation to influence the innocent.

And this it seems, is what is happening among the many disengagement deniers: Either they are naïve, or just propagandists trying to arouse belief.

The first should not complain, but the last will pay the price when the time comes to present themselves to God.

Does God exist? Most secular people would say no. But should He demonstrate His ability to make miracles occur and stop the pullout, we will be forced to rethink the issue. :D

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3122056,00.html

[redcake]

It's a shame every conversation gets reduced to a religious vs. secular agenda. You're not going to change ones personal belief system here (or lack of one), so there's simply no need to interject it into every conversation...wether you're promoting an ideology or chastising it. Learn to have some tolerance, and wake up to the complexities of the issues. The divide between the religious Jews and secular Israel is NOT the only issue to this political situation. I don't even think it's the central issue.

[Gilgamesh]

It's a shame every conversation gets reduced to a religious vs. secular agenda. You are mistaken. The quarrle is between religious vs. anti-religious. I am secular, and I side with StevenK on this one.

You're not going to change ones personal belief system here (or lack of one), so there's simply no need to interject it into every conversation. On this I agree. Ophra has proved itself to be hidious and bigoted person. An embarresment for the rest of us. I ignore most of her posts as much as possible, unless I am really feel like responding and someone elses had quoted her.

Learn to have some tolerance, and wake up to the complexities of the issues. The objective of some of the debates here, is acid test one arguments. The theory goes, that over some practice, one can distill one opinion to their very essance, and respond more clearly and more fluidly.

That's what I think, StevenK is trying to do. Currently, he is in his lectureing and megila publishing phase. I hope he won't get stuck there for very long. A link or a reference is more the adequate in most cases.

The divide between the religious Jews and secular Israel is NOT the only issue to this political situation. I don't even think it's the central issue. You are right. There is the idea of Had Ness, "sole standard" idea of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to which, one cannot raise more then one single flag or standard a time. Any syntesis between Zionism and any other ism, must undermind Zionism.

By the 50's it was clear to Ben Gurion, that the communists in Israel, are more loyal to Stalin and the Kremlin then to the poeple of Israel. So Ben Gurion done hastly massures to disarm the commies, isolate and divid them, thus he removed the menace itself. But the commies, although unarmed and disorginized, hadn't vanished, they only mutated into Ophra like creatures. As you can see, her twisted ultra left wing radical opinions and her self love (and hate of others), contradict any Zionist nuances she may still posses, and any Zionist idea she comes accorss.

The religious folk, also exhibit some contradiction to true Zionism, only on a whole different level. Therefor Jabo's Had Ness is proved ever so important.

[Gilgamesh]

So what happened to Yigal Amir and his brothers and the whole clan of Khanists ??? ..... were they asleep during that class Gil ???The Kahanists broke the Taboo... not all of them, just Yigal Amir.

What the left does, is far worse, using this incident to deligitimise and outcast all political opponents. As if every non-far left person is quilty for this political murder. This is absurd, stupid and even greater breaking of the Taboo.

[Ophra]

It's a shame every conversation gets reduced to a religious vs. secular agenda. You're not going to change ones personal belief system here (or lack of one), so there's simply no need to interject it into every conversation...wether you're promoting an ideology or chastising it. Learn to have some tolerance, and wake up to the complexities of the issues. The divide between the religious Jews and secular Israel is NOT the only issue to this political situation. I don't even think it's the central issue.

I am not trying to change anyone's "personal belief system here (or lack of one)" redcake ... I am just defending my own ......am I allowed to do that ;) ?????????????

I am very tolerant , especially when it comes to my Muslim neighbors ... how tolerant are you with that view redcake ;) ??????????????????

" wake up to the complexities of the issues " .... I beg your pardon ??? Don't you think I am more aware of them being as how I live right in the midst of those complex issues.... I can't see how you are more aware of them soooooo far away from them in NYC redcake .

"" The divide between the religious Jews and secular Israel is NOT the only issue to this political situation. I don't even think it's the central issue."" ..... tell that to Steve please .... for him it's the only issue . :rolleyes:

[Ophra]

You are mistaken. The quarrle is between religious vs. anti-religious. I am secular, and I side with StevenK on this one.

On this I agree. Ophra has proved itself to be hidious and bigoted person. An embarresment for the rest of us. I ignore most of her posts as much as possible, unless I am really feel like responding and someone elses had quoted her.

The objective of some of the debates here, is acid test one arguments. The theory goes, that over some practice, one can distill one opinion to their very essance, and respond more clearly and more fluidly.

That's what I think, StevenK is trying to do. Currently, he is in his lectureing and megila publishing phase. I hope he won't get stuck there for very long. A link or a reference is more the adequate in most cases.

You are right. There is the idea of Had Ness, "sole standard" idea of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. According to which, one cannot raise more then one single flag or standard a time. Any syntesis between Zionism and any other ism, must undermind Zionism.

By the 50's it was clear to Ben Gurion, that the communists in Israel, are more loyal to Stalin and the Kremlin then to the poeple of Israel. So Ben Gurion done hastly massures to disarm the commies, isolate and divid them, thus he removed the menace itself. But the commies, although unarmed and disorginized, hadn't vanished, they only mutated into Ophra like creatures. As you can see, her twisted ultra left wing radical opinions and her self love (and hate of others), contradict any Zionist nuances she may still posses, and any Zionist idea she comes accorss.

The religious folk, also exhibit some contradiction to true Zionism, only on a whole different level. Therefor Jabo's Had Ness is proved ever so important.

Ha ha ... your so funny Gil :D
I'm a capitalist ... neener :p
Jabotinsky !!! ........why am I not surprised ... LOL .

[Ophra]

The Kahanists broke the Taboo... not all of them, just Yigal Amir.

Really Gil ??? Just Yigal Amir huh ? You mean just Yigal Amir and his brother Hagai Amir maybe Gil ?????
Or could it be just Yigal Amir, his brother and the full support of a Khanist cell situated in the West Bank Gil ??????????
Add to that the atmosphere at the time....... which BTW is very similar to the atmosphere of today ;)
Plus the halachic commandment to kill Rabin (din rodef) and the messages coming from so many of the religious leaders at the time ..... how many do you think that is now Gil ?????
Then we have the settlers dancing and rejoicing at his murder .
Not forgetting those religious in Brooklyn who also joined in the festivities !!!!!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ..... just Yigal Amir Gil :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What the left does, is far worse, using this incident to deligitimise and outcast all political opponents. As if every non-far left person is quilty for this political murder. This is absurd, stupid and even greater breaking of the Taboo.

I'm not a leftist Gil.... I used to be ..... Rabin's assassination turned me into a hardliner .... you reap what you sow Gil .. and Shinui's rise is a direct answer to the religious extremists in this country .

[Gilgamesh]

I am very tolerant , especially when it comes to my Muslim neighbors ... That is exactly your burnt circut! You love Arabs and hate others... why don't you join Bin Laden, I belive Tali Pahima bow is free at the moment, why don't you joint it, and get it over with?

[Gilgamesh]

Jabotinsky !!! ........why am I not surprised ... LOL . Bacause I mention this in every other post of mine... ?! :rolleyes:

I am a Jabotinsky follower since I first heard his name, as a child. I have only depened my understanding and perspective ever since.

[redcake]

I am not trying to change anyone's "personal belief system here (or lack of one)" redcake ... I am just defending my own ......am I allowed to do that ;) ?????????????

I am very tolerant , especially when it comes to my Muslim neighbors ... how tolerant are you with that view redcake ;) ??????????????????

" wake up to the complexities of the issues " .... I beg your pardon ??? Don't you think I am more aware of them being as how I live right in the midst of those complex issues.... I can't see how you are more aware of them soooooo far away from them in NYC redcake .


Then why does every argument comes back to demonizing the religious, or the diaspora? My distance from Israel doesn't make you sound any more reasonable, sorry.... because let's be real, it's immature to politicize hatred and intolerance. Proclaiming tolerance for Muslims while you speak of the entire moderate religious population of Israel as if they're ALL subscribing to Kahanism, is loooony tunes.

Gilgamesh - I firmly disbute any notion that the Gaza pullout is a secular vs. religious thing. Gaza was not developed to be a religious retreat for one thing....and it's not like every jewish resident is full of religious fervor. The secular left, and the religious right are both promoting this misperception, but contrary to this forums most vocal posters, there are a LOT of Israelis in the middle who consider the issue for reasonings void of a simplified us vs. them argument.

[Mediocrates]

I saw this on another board. I thought it was dead on.

"Unless I'm mistaken, Jerusalem was built (fathered, if you will) by the Jews, and if I am mistaken, it certainly wasn't built by the Arabs. So the only way Jerusalem could belong to the Arabs is if they conquered it. And if conquering a city makes it yours, then surely the current owners, the Jews, are the rightful ones."

[Mediocrates]

Al Qaeda's Appearance in Gaza is a Dangerous New Terrorist Manifestation



DEBKAfile Special Report



Tuesday, August 2, Al Qaeda claimed the establishment of a Gaza branch called “Al Qaeda-Palestine, Jihad Brigades in the Border Land.” (This is an al Qaeda locution meaning warfront.) The announcement, accompanied by a video tape, appeared on Websites normally reserved for releases on major al Qaeda strikes, such as the Madrid, London and Saudi bombing attacks and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's operations in Iraq. It is therefore to be taken seriously. The statement came out three days after the DEBKAfile exclusive disclosure of al Qaeda's purported theological grounds for attacking Israel, as expounded in its new monthly magazine, From the Tip of the Camel's Hump.

Al Qaeda's Palestinian gunmen performing on the tape claim the new organization is already in action and assume responsibility for firing rockets at the Israeli communities of Neve Dekalim and Ganei Tal in the Gaza Strip Saturday night, July 30.


Military tests revealed that Sinjal rockets, which are used by the Jihad Islami and are inferior even to the hit-or-miss Qassam missiles, were indeed fired at those two places. The gunmen who are heavily masked sounded very much like Gazan Palestinians.

Israeli intelligence experts on al Qaeda have three diverse theories to explain the new development.

1. This theory holds that the three most violent Palestinian groups, Hamas, Jihad Islami and the Fatah-al Aqsa Brigades, established a new umbrella organization to execute terrorist and shooting attacks against Israel's withdrawal operation in two weeks while eluding the charge of flouting Abu Mazen's orders. This theory does not fully explain al Qaeda's introduction to the Gaza Strip.

2. Al Qaeda's agents infiltrated the Gaza Strip through northern Sinai, the Palestinian arms smuggling gangs who work both sides of the Rafah border or Hizballah cells in Gaza, and set up a new organization based on the Hamas and Jihad Islami.

3. The Palestinian Popular Committees which bring together the al Aqsa Brigades and other terrorist splinters has split into feuding elements, one of which may have joined up with al Qaeda, promised allegiance and collaboration and received funds. That money would have paid for the film and the two attacks.

Whichever mechanism was used, it is clear that the international Islamist organization has made its first public appearance as a terrorist force present in the Gaza Strip. In every country, this hostile penetration would have captured top headlines and the security authorities and government would have been challenged for explanations. However in Israel today, the government, defense officials are media are so deeply immersed in the task of rooting out every last civilian and soldier from the affected territory against all opposition, that they are incapable of reviewing that task in the light of the new invasion.

[sharonbn]

"Unless I'm mistaken, Jerusalem was built (fathered, if you will) by the Jews, and if I am mistaken, it certainly wasn't built by the Arabs. So the only way Jerusalem could belong to the Arabs is if they conquered it. And if conquering a city makes it yours, then surely the current owners, the Jews, are the rightful ones."


There are two points that this "dead on" sentence does not take into account:

1) The Jews did build Jer'm. and the Arabs did conquer it (not from the Jews). These events occured some 1,500 years ago. and that is a lot of time, by any standards. So, the arabs' claim over Jer'm is not because thet "conquered it". no. the arabs' claim over Jer'm is something like the statue oflimitation: so much time has passed since the conquer of the land, that the Arabs consider themselves natives of the land and of the city of the Jer'm.

2) The sentence refer to the outcome of the 67 war. However, the state of Israel was founded in 1948, just before the first war between the Arabs and Jews broke out. When Jews immigrated to the land of Israel, starting from the 1880s, they id not come as military force. They came as immigrants.

[Mediocrates]

There are two points that this "dead on" sentence does not take into account:

1) The Jews did build Jer'm. and the Arabs did conquer it (not from the Jews). These events occured some 1,500 years ago. and that is a lot of time, by any standards. So, the arabs' claim over Jer'm is not because thet "conquered it". no. the arabs' claim over Jer'm is something like the statue oflimitation: so much time has passed since the conquer of the land, that the Arabs consider themselves natives of the land and of the city of the Jer'm.

Then give it back to them then. It seems like a reasonable request.

2) The sentence refer to the outcome of the 67 war. However, the state of Israel was founded in 1948, just before the first war between the Arabs and Jews broke out. When Jews immigrated to the land of Israel, starting from the 1880s, they id not come as military force. They came as immigrants.

Again, so the Jews should be happy with their entirely legal status as visitors to the Palestinian homeland. It's axiomatic. Continued Israeli statehood would therefore appear to be illegal or anachronistic on its face. At most one could say that Israel came into being a lot like East Germany - specifically as a result of post war cold war tensions. And now that those tensions don't exist it's entirely sensible to break down the partition of Palestine and once again have one integrated Palestinian homeland.


I really like these 'legal' arguments. Let's have more of them.

[sharonbn]

Then give it back to them then. It seems like a reasonable request.
return to green line is a reasonable request, in my eyes.
Moreover, it looks like this is were Israel is heading.

Again, so the Jews should be happy with their entirely legal status as visitors to the Palestinian homeland. It's axiomatic. Continued Israeli statehood would therefore appear to be illegal or anachronistic on its face. At most one could say that Israel came into being a lot like East Germany - specifically as a result of post war cold war tensions. And now that those tensions don't exist it's entirely sensible to break down the partition of Palestine and once again have one integrated Palestinian homeland.
You keep displaying that there were only two options: Israel or Palestine.
The state of Israel was founded because Jews immigrated to Israel with the intention to establish an independant state there, but not at the expense of the Arabs or of future Palestine. Jews were thinking that there was enough place in the land for the two people to live in two separate states. That is why in the beginning Jews delibrately bought and settled on barren wastelands. The Jews did not come and settled in Jaffa or Jer'm and try to push the Arabs from these places.
I really like these 'legal' arguments. Let's have more of them.
I know you like these 'legal' arguments. Like it or not, these arguments will determine the outcome of the conflict, as opposed to constructive suggestions like "throw them into some dark hole".

[Mediocrates]

I know you like these 'legal' arguments. Like it or not, these arguments will determine the outcome of the conflict, as opposed to constructive suggestions like "throw them into some dark hole".


Well at least I found what your pity threshold is. You're like the Republicans over here who profess to care more for Honduran workers than American workers. Oh yes we can't forget about those miserable people making shoes can we. No that will never do, people will think us beastly.

All I said was leave them to their fate, whatever the hell that is, which is, if you look at it coldly, a dark hole of their own making. Or were you planning on mounting a grand Marshall Plan for all the Palestinians too?

[sharonbn]

what do you mean by "leave them to their fate"? you think Israel should withdraw from all occupied land?

[Mediocrates]

I think you should make Israel as small as you think is appropriate up to an including dissolution.

[MGB8]

SharonBN,

Here's the interesting question for you - why do you believe that the Arabs deserve ALL of the land outside the "green line?" This also includes a re-partition of Jerusalem, and possibly endangering Jewish access to the Western Wall - is that what is contemplated by you, or something less, ala Camp David?

[sharonbn]

I think you should make Israel as small as you think is appropriate up to an including dissolution.
Do you have any non sarcastic answer?

[sharonbn]

SharonBN,

Here's the interesting question for you - why do you believe that the Arabs deserve ALL of the land outside the "green line?" This also includes a re-partition of Jerusalem, and possibly endangering Jewish access to the Western Wall - is that what is contemplated by you, or something less, ala Camp David?
When I said return to green line, I was speaking in general terms. More specifically, all of the proposals that were published util now, incl' Camp David and Geneva, outlined a border which is close to the green line, with some adjustments that take into consideration that some 38 years did pass and some facts changed during that time.

I believe the solution should be in the line of Clinton's idea of "Israel is where Jews reside and Palestine is where Arabs reside". of course some consolidation is required, but that should be the general goal.

[Gilgamesh]

It wasn't a very good post of yours. Your arguments can be revolved quite easily against you.

There are two points that this "dead on" sentence does not take into account:

1) The Jews did build Jer'm. and the Arabs did conquer it (not from the Jews). These events occured some 1,500 years ago. and that is a lot of time, by any standards. So, the arabs' claim over Jer'm is not because thet "conquered it". no. the arabs' claim over Jer'm is something like the statue oflimitation: so much time has passed since the conquer of the land, that the Arabs consider themselves natives of the land and of the city of the Jer'm. Jerusalem was liberated almost 40 years ago, which is a LOT of time, which makes WHOLE of Jerusalem Jewish from the very reasons you claim it to be Arab.

2) The sentence refer to the outcome of the 67 war. However, the state of Israel was founded in 1948, just before the first war between the Arabs and Jews broke out. When Jews immigrated to the land of Israel, starting from the 1880s, they id not come as military force. They came as immigrants.These 19 years gap are absolutly meaningless in the land of Israel history. 1967 is clear cut and simple extension of the war of independence. The so "sacred" green line the lefties worship in such a zeal, is a cease fire line, NOT an international recognize border, aspecialy not in the eyes of the Arabs at the time. So, there you go.

IN 1967, Israel used a pre-emptive strike against Egypt and Syria and warned Jorden not to get involved. Jorden attacked us first, before we have ended their reign in OUR WB and OUR Jerusalem. We have any right to hold territories gained in a defensive war, as the one against Jorden.

[MGB8]

The Jews came as immigrants, but were granted statehood by the (psuedo) sovereign, and then conquered area in response to a genocidal attack against it. Therefore, all of Israel has been fought for (since 48), while only a small portion was actually "only" legally granted. This is the problem with those who say "after 67 bad, before 67 good." Why doesn't this logic apply to any lands outside the partition? Its a dangerous precedent to set, and, under the laws of war, an invalid one - but the enemies of Israel and Jews don't care. Talking too much about the green line leads to this precedent, however. Better to refer to UN 242.

[SteveK]

Mediocrates

I saw this on another board. I thought it was dead on.

"Unless I'm mistaken, Jerusalem was built (fathered, if you will) by the Jews, and if I am mistaken, it certainly wasn't built by the Arabs. So the only way Jerusalem could belong to the Arabs is if they conquered it. And if conquering a city makes it yours, then surely the current owners, the Jews, are the rightful ones."


The "current" owners,the Jews, are the rightful owners. And, the "current" Jews, who are actually living in the Land of Israel, are really the rightful owners, and who are keeping that ownership for the "current" diaspora Jews too. And, expelling some of these "current" Jews from their Land for surrender to these Arabs, will not break, but instead reinforce their resolution to make us "current" Jews here into ancient history,- again.


Gilgamesh

The objective of some of the debates here, is acid test one arguments. The theory goes, that over some practice, one can distill one opinion to their very essance, and respond more clearly and more fluidly.

That's what I think, StevenK is trying to do. Currently, he is in his lectureing and megila publishing phase. I hope he won't get stuck there for very long. A link or a reference is more the adequate in most cases.

I said before that the israelforum here is a lab for me. Israel, my Country, is my real forum where I plan to bring my issues up for action.


redcake

It's a shame every conversation gets reduced to a religious vs. secular agenda.


Gilgamesh

You are mistaken. The quarrle is between religious vs. anti-religious. I am secular, and I side with StevenK on this one.

ophra

"" The divide between the religious Jews and secular Israel is NOT the only issue to this political situation. I don't even think it's the central issue."" ..... tell that to Steve please .... for him it's the only issue .

3,500+ years of the Jewish heritage and identity is all about the Jewish "religious" thing. Settlement of Israel would never have crossed the mind of Ophra's family had it not been for this Jewish "religious" thing having been passed unbroken from one generation to the next and being there as the guide to WHY Israel was relevant to the Jews. Anti-semitism, assimilation, Christian missionaries, atheism, and surrendering/giving away of God given Land are all issues in opposition to this Jewish "religious" thing. To fully hellinize Israel, the political and social opposition must be squashed of these Jews who continue to bring this Jewish "religious" thing of already 35+ centuries from one generation to the next.


redcake to ophra

Proclaiming tolerance for Muslims while you speak of the entire moderate religious population of Israel as if they're ALL subscribing to Kahanism, is loooony tunes.

http://www.octoberskies.com/Soundbytes/sound_bytes5.htm


And, such tunes are underway to replace the Zionist national anthem of Israel,- especially about the part of a "Jewish Spirit and Soul", "NEFESH YEHUDI",- another influence of that Jewish "religious" thing from 35+ centuries.

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Anthem.asp


ophra

from: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3122056,00.html

Does God exist? Most secular people would say no. But should He demonstrate His ability to make miracles occur and stop the pullout, we will be forced to rethink the issue.

](Isaiah 42):

Thus said the God, HASHEM, Who created the heavens and stretched them forth. Who firmed the earth and it produce, Who gave a soul to the people upon it, and a spirit to those who walk on it;...

I am HASHEM, that is My Name; I shall not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven idols...

Commentary: By not punishing the wicked, God indirectly encourages idolators to believe in the potency of their gods. That will soon change. (Rada"k - Rabbi Dovid Kimchi 1157 – 1236)

[Mediocrates]

Do you have any non sarcastic answer?


That was not a sarcastic answer. You have to decide how much and how rapidly to retreat, without restriction. If that means all of Yesha and all of Golan and all of Jerusalem then that's what it means. If it means the 1949 armistice lines then that's what it means. If it means something more than that then that's what it means.

[Sheherazade]

And, such tunes are underway to replace the Zionist national anthem of Israel,- especially about the part of a "Jewish Spirit and Soul", "NEFESH YEHUDI",- another influence of that Jewish "religious" thing from 35+ centuries.

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Anthem.asp


Interesting, I was thinking the same thing myself. I had no idea that there were others who felt the same way. Can you give me any more information about this movement. Just how do you think a Muslim or Christian living in Israel feels about those words of Hatikvah. Why can't "Nefesh Yahudi" be replaced with something that translates to "the soul of all righteous" or something like that to be more inclusive. I know that if the national anthem of the US said something about every Christian soul, I'd refuse to sing it and would be quite disenfranchised. The Jewish people can't just circle the wagons, and hope to survive in this world. This is not thousands of years ago.

[redcake]

Anti-semitism, assimilation, Christian missionaries, atheism, and surrendering/giving away of God given Land are all issues in opposition to this Jewish "religious" thing. To fully hellinize Israel, the political and social opposition must be squashed of these Jews who continue to bring this Jewish "religious" thing of already 35+ centuries from one generation to the next.

Again, politicizing the religious aspects of the conflict aren't going to get you very far in this debate, discussion whatever. We're talking about outcome of modern day Israel with all it's diversity. These issues effect a billion shades shades of Jews, and non-Jews alike, and your predisposition for or against religion shouldn't cloud your judgement. Certain agendas here are starting to take the shape of a one dimensional cartoon like an experimental interactive bot dreamed up by Hebrew University. Press button, hear rhetoric.

The religious aspect is PERSONAL to the INDIVIDUAL, and it means or doesn't mean different things to everyone. I know this riles some of you up but get over it. While it's one of the many criterias to consider.... it's foolish to make it the ONLY aspect of importance.

Meanwhile, I think Medio has made several good points here, if only through backhanded sarcasm.

[SteveK]

Sheherazade:

Just how do you think a Muslim or Christian living in Israel feels about those words of Hatikvah. Why can't "Nefesh Yahudi" be replaced with something that translates to "the soul of all righteous" or something like that to be more inclusive. I know that if the national anthem of the US said something about every Christian soul, I'd refuse to sing it and would be quite disenfranchised. The Jewish people can't just circle the wagons, and hope to survive in this world. This is not thousands of years ago.


redcake:

The religious aspect is PERSONAL to the INDIVIDUAL, and it means or doesn't mean different things to everyone. I know this riles some of you up but get over it. While it's one of the many criterias to consider.... it's foolish to make it the ONLY aspect of importance


You are relating to 35+ centuries of Jewish heritage as religion. Jews began their history as a nation on their way to a sovereign Land with God and Torah as their national legal foundation, and they were in exile as a nation with the prayers to return to their sovereign Homeland. The Jewish heritage is not about "personal religious beliefs". The Jewish heritage is about governing the sovereign nation of Israel,- the Homeland of the Jews, and not the Christians or Muslims.

Why do the both of you contradict 35+ centuries of Jewish heritage? Why should I take your word for what should be the direction and future of Israel over the word of God proclaimed through His prophets,- the greatest of which was Moses?

And, 35+ centuries of Jewish heritage is not about "religious pluralism":

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

So, I'm afraid that your frustrations will only increase as Israel approaches a National Torah Government.

[redcake]

All you do is alienate anyone who doesn't walk in your same exact model shoes. "Think like I do, or you'll be sorry" isn't a valid response.

Let's agree the issue here is soveriengty, shall we? I understand that everything goes back to the Torah, but I'm afraid that line of argument means zippo to those sitting on the opposite side of the table. What you can debate rationally is the right to self determination and soveriegnty. It's really up to if you have the self control to do that. We can't agree on 50+ years of soveriengnty, but you want to talk about Centuries?!

[SteveK]

All you do is alienate anyone who doesn't walk in your same exact model shoes. "Think like I do, or you'll be sorry" isn't a valid response.

Let's agree the issue here is soveriengty, shall we? I understand that everything goes back to the Torah, but I'm afraid that line of argument means zippo to those sitting on the opposite side of the table. What you can debate rationally is the right to self determination and soveriegnty. It's really up to if you have the self control to do that. We can't agree on 50+ years of soveriengnty, but you want to talk about Centuries?!


redcake,

I don't come to the table agreeing to your preconditions to level out the playing field. For God, 35+ centuries is a spit in the bucket of time.
We are talking about the will of God. He doesn't want to be just the personal God in the furniture and fixtures of institutionalized religion, and home armchair spirituality. He wants to be the political God brought into the world by His Chosen People, us, the Jews, together as one united sovereign nation in our Homeland.

EXODUS (19:3-6):

"And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain [Sinai], saying, Thus shall you say to the House of Jacob, and tell the Children of Israel; You have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now, therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own treasure from among the peoples; for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which you will speak to the Children of Israel."

Refer to picture #29 "Mount Sinai" to view a beautiful artist's conception of the Jewish Nation at Mount Sinai:

http://www.templeinstitute.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=canvas&keywords=&next=20


redcake, your Jewish mentality is locked within the four walls of suburban American institutionalized religion.

[redcake]

Well what do you propose will happen first....the Messiah will come, or a Gaza pullout ?

Yeah I might be between four white walls, but at least they're not padded. A painting of Mount Sinai? Well you sure illustrated your point now didn't you.

[Mediocrates]

It's a shame every conversation gets reduced to a religious vs. secular agenda.


They need their dybbuks. We used to say that Judaism in America couldn't exist w/o antisemitism. But it's equally true that Israel can't exist w/o paranoia.

[SteveK]

Well what do you propose will happen first....the Messiah will come, or a Gaza pullout ?

Yeah I might be between four white walls, but at least they're not padded. A painting of Mount Sinai? Well you sure illustrated your point now didn't you.


redcake,

If not for this artist's conception of the united Jewish nation under God and Torah to show the contrast to your Jewish upbringing in New York, do you have any recall from memory of this event at Mount Sinai, or do you have a family photo to share with us?

Refer to picture #29 "Mount Sinai" to view a beautiful artist's conception of the Jewish Nation at Mount Sinai:

[http://www.templeinstitute.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=canvas&keywords=&next=20


I realize that a National Torah Leadership in Israel would invalidate your model of international Jewish religious movements, which enabled one, through the perversion of the true Jewish heritage, to join you as even a better Jew in Brooklyn than in Jerusalem. The divisive Jewish religious movements now here in Israel are just a reflection of what you now know in the diaspora.

And, redcake: your responses posted are on the low level of the activist atheists of this forum.

[MGB8]

Interesting, I was thinking the same thing myself. I had no idea that there were others who felt the same way. Can you give me any more information about this movement. Just how do you think a Muslim or Christian living in Israel feels about those words of Hatikvah. Why can't "Nefesh Yahudi" be replaced with something that translates to "the soul of all righteous" or something like that to be more inclusive. I know that if the national anthem of the US said something about every Christian soul, I'd refuse to sing it and would be quite disenfranchised. The Jewish people can't just circle the wagons, and hope to survive in this world. This is not thousands of years ago.

Shehrazade,

How would an Iraqi or Saudi or Turkish or Iranian Christian or Jew feel about a national law based on Sharia?

Israel is not the US. Israel is a Jewish state, just like those nations are Muslim nations. Just as they have the right to have their state religions, so to does Israel. Deal with it.

[Mediocrates]

Or more often it's a matter simply of this is how the culture is. I'm sure there are lots of people who have strong reactions to the war language in the US National Anthem just as I'm sure there are people everywhere living as minorities in every country who don't like living under someone else's set of rules. It's childish to imagine that the role of every country and every society and every culture is to ensure that every single minority opinion is floated to the top of everyone's conciousness and has to be taken as equal with everything. That's not diversity, that's the opposite of diversity. That's parallelism. So the Arabs don't like Hatikvah. Oh well, I don't like Sunday Blue Laws either. Maybe if the Arabs in Israel got organized they could get some legislation passed instead of whining and feeling sorry for themselves and victimized.

[Sheherazade]

Or more often it's a matter simply of this is how the culture is. I'm sure there are lots of people who have strong reactions to the war language in the US National Anthem just as I'm sure there are people everywhere living as minorities in every country who don't like living under someone else's set of rules. It's childish to imagine that the role of every country and every society and every culture is to ensure that every single minority opinion is floated to the top of everyone's conciousness and has to be taken as equal with everything. That's not diversity, that's the opposite of diversity. That's parallelism. So the Arabs don't like Hatikvah. Oh well, I don't like Sunday Blue Laws either. Maybe if the Arabs in Israel got organized they could get some legislation passed instead of whining and feeling sorry for themselves and victimized.


I think I need to ask some Christian friends what they think of the words to Hatikvah. Comparing discomfort with the warlike imagery of the US National Anthem to "every Jewish soul" is disingenuous at best. How would you feel if every session of Congress started with a prayer involving "Jesus our lord". How would you feel if your children had to acknowledge Jesus every day at school? I guess the feeling of disenfranchisement doesn't count in Israel, only in the US. Please don't compare Israel to Islamic Nations, I don't agree with what they do either. As my mother would say...." If your friends were jumping off the Empire State Building, would you jump too?"

[MGB8]

Nice job ducking the question. :rolleyes:

I am talking about a Democratic Iraq or Turkey, Sheherazade. Not just the fascist states.

If Israel cannot be a nation with a national religion, then can any nation. If so, then I want to hear you criticize each an every nation with a national religion - as most have far more intrusive things than simply a couple words in the national anthem.

Like I said, Israel is first and foremost the Jewish homeland. It happens to be a democracy, but could just as easily be a Constitutional monarchy or some other form of government. Democracy is secondary. Israel was not formed because the world needed a democratic nation in the mid-east. Israel was formed because Jews formed the large majority in a certain part of their ancient homeland, and there was no better claim to sovereignty on that land. Oh, and that whole thing about the non-Jewish majorities proving... inhospitable to Jews.

Either you are attacking the concept of sovereignty - that states have the right to have a national religion, or this is a thinly veiled attack on Zionism, but NOT on other states with national religions - in which case you would be an anti-semite.

Again, their are Christians all over the Muslim world, and there used to be Jews... where are your calls for those nations to relinquish their religious identities?

Furthermore, since Judaism is more tribe than pure religion, it would be more like asking Armenia not to mention Armenians in its national anthem or government! I'm sure there are non-ethnic Armenians in Armenia... but, they accept that it is ARMENIA. Just as non-Jewish citizens of Israel must learn to accept that it is the JEWISH homeland, the one JEWISH state... and if not, get out. You can live there, as a full citizen, but it is the Jewish state, just like a non-Armenian accepts that Armenia is the Armenian state.

[Sheherazade]

Nice job ducking the question. :rolleyes:

I am talking about a Democratic Iraq or Turkey, Sheherazade. Not just the fascist states.

If Israel cannot be a nation with a national religion, then can any nation. If so, then I want to hear you criticize each an every nation with a national religion - as most have far more intrusive things than simply a couple words in the national anthem.

Like I said, Israel is first and foremost the Jewish homeland. It happens to be a democracy, but could just as easily be a Constitutional monarchy or some other form of government. Democracy is secondary. Israel was not formed because the world needed a democratic nation in the mid-east. Israel was formed because Jews formed the large majority in a certain part of their ancient homeland, and there was no better claim to sovereignty on that land. Oh, and that whole thing about the non-Jewish majorities proving... inhospitable to Jews.

Either you are attacking the concept of sovereignty - that states have the right to have a national religion, or this is a thinly veiled attack on Zionism, but NOT on other states with national religions - in which case you would be an anti-semite.

Again, their are Christians all over the Muslim world, and there used to be Jews... where are your calls for those nations to relinquish their religious identities?

Furthermore, since Judaism is more tribe than pure religion, it would be more like asking Armenia not to mention Armenians in its national anthem or government! I'm sure there are non-ethnic Armenians in Armenia... but, they accept that it is ARMENIA. Just as non-Jewish citizens of Israel must learn to accept that it is the JEWISH homeland, the one JEWISH state... and if not, get out. You can live there, as a full citizen, but it is the Jewish state, just like a non-Armenian accepts that Armenia is the Armenian state.

No, I don't think there should be any national religions. Don't play the anti-semite card with me; you hardly know me and it just shows that you don't think your argument has merit on its own. Your Armenian analogy is laughable, in order for it to work you would have to use the word "Israeli", not "Jew." Jews formed a large majority in a certain part of their ancient homeland? Can you show me a link to that information? Does that area where there was a large majority include the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

[Mediocrates]

I think I need to ask some Christian friends what they think of the words to Hatikvah. Comparing discomfort with the warlike imagery of the US National Anthem to "every Jewish soul" is disingenuous at best. How would you feel if every session of Congress started with a prayer involving "Jesus our lord".

It does, basically. It certainly does at the state level and in my state courts.

How would you feel if your children had to acknowledge Jesus every day at school?

If I were 5 years older I would have done that in NYC public schools. All the same, "Christmas" is celebrated in public schools here. Oh they bury you in Kwanza for 6 weeks but it's Christmas this and Baby Jesus that. Come down to the Bible Belt, the wall between church and state is paper thin.

I guess the feeling of disenfranchisement doesn't count in Israel, only in the US.

'Rights' are not 'Likes' and 'Likes' are not 'Rights'. I grew up in a neighborhood that was 85% Korean by the time I moved away. I can't remember a single Korean holiday officially celebrated ever. But even though comparatively few people are actually Irish American compared to the total population, come March 17th, everything stops for St. Patrick's Day, doesn't it. Better we should have Cinco de Mayo, yes?

Please don't compare Israel to Islamic Nations, I don't agree with what they do either. As my mother would say...." If your friends were jumping off the Empire State Building, would you jump too?"

No I would push them. That much less competition for the rest of us.:p

[Gilgamesh]

How would you feel if every session of Congress started with a prayer involving "Jesus our lord". USA isn't a nation state, Israel is, so are most of the countries in Europe and around the world.

Jews living in Europe have absolutly no problem with national Anthems of the countries they live in. Why should we have a problem? It defies logic to ask a National Anthem be multi-national...

For example, France isn't ours and why should we care what national Anthem the French pick? Jews are foreigners in any country of the world, other then Israel. The content of nations states national Anthems ain't our concern, or care.

How would you feel if your children had to acknowledge Jesus every day at school? Happened through most of modern Jewish history... we simply moved to Jewish schools when possible. Problem solved.

I guess the feeling of disenfranchisement doesn't count in Israel, only in the US. We care only on Jews disenfranchisment, and this is the probelm the state of Israel was created to solve.

Other people will solve their own problems, or not. Not our responsibility.

Please don't compare Israel to Islamic Nations, I don't agree with what they do either. How nice.... And what have you done about that? Can you refer me to one post you wrote, in this forum or other concerning human rights, women rights, gay rights, basic freedoms or anything, in Arab countries?

I am willing to bat you never wrote even one post on any of these issues, ever.

As my mother would say...." If your friends were jumping off the Empire State Building, would you jump too?" You are the one parroting anciant old propaganda. You are the one walking in the herd, jumpin off the Empire State Building. Not us.

[Gilgamesh]

No, I don't think there should be any national religions. Try whish national religion to vanish, and please inform me of your results.

National religions exist since religions were first invented. On biblical times, every nation had it's own religions and own rituals. National religions, such as Judaism survived, and are most likely to remain.

In other words, your opinions are irrelevent. Try handling the reality for a change, a reality of national religions.

Don't play the anti-semite card with me; We know your kind better then you know yourself. We are anciant in this place, and you bring us nothing new.

Jews formed a large majority in a certain part of their ancient homeland? Can you show me a link to that information? Does that area where there was a large majority include the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? Ofcourse! Jews lived all over the land of Israel, Gaza and the WB included. I won't bring you a link because then you'll derail to conversation into a draw by questioning the "political affiliation" of the link. Why in reality there are planty of outer biblical archeological findings, all over the middle east, associating the entire land of Israel with the Jewish people. But I think you already know these facts.

So I'll give you simpler facts for you to handle. Arabs still live in towns that carry their ORIGINAL HEBREW name, meaning Arabs currently live in towns and cities the belong to us Jews, after the Jewish comunity there got cleansed over the centuries.

[Sheherazade]

Try whish national religion to vanish, and please inform me of your results.

National religions exist since religions were first invented. On biblical times, every nation had it's own religions and own rituals. National religions, such as Judaism survived, and are most likely to remain.

In other words, your opinions are irrelevent. Try handling the reality for a change, a reality of national religions.

We know your kind better then you know yourself. We are anciant in this place, and you bring us nothing new.

Ofcourse! Jews lived all over the land of Israel, Gaza and the WB included. I won't bring you a link because then you'll derail to conversation into a draw by questioning the "political affiliation" of the link. Why in reality there are planty of outer biblical archeological findings, all over the middle east, associating the entire land of Israel with the Jewish people. But I think you already know these facts.

So I'll give you simpler facts for you to handle. Arabs still live in towns that carry their ORIGINAL HEBREW name, meaning Arabs currently live in towns and cities the belong to us Jews, after the Jewish comunity there got cleansed over the centuries.


What is the national religion of the US? of Canada? We are not living in ancient times and when Israel was formed as a nation (the modern political one) there was not a *majority* of Jews in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It has nothing to do with Biblical or archeological findings. If your argument held water then we in the US should give the land back to the Native Americans.

In how many of those countries with a national religion is the religion mentioned in its National Anthem?

What *kind* is my *kind*?

[MGB8]

Wrong. ISRAEL is the name of Jacob... hence the ISRAELITES - JEWS. Synonymous.

Israel was named after its inhabitants, the ISRAELITES. Hence when the nation broke up, it became ISRAEL and JUDEA.

Armenia was names after its inhabitants, the ARMENIANS.

Meanwhile, it is anti-semetic to put Israel to one standard and other states to a different standard. In other words, if you don't oppose other nations having national religions - and act towards them the same way that you towards Israel, then you are discriminating against Jews... and that is anti-semitic conduct. Its not a "card." Its reality. Its thinly veiled, people play pretend, but when you have a standard that is only different when its applied to Jews, or to the Jewish state... that's pretty clear cut.

So, if you don't want any state religions, that's fine. But you better be consistent about it. You had better sympathise with Christians in Muslim nations, meaning no nation should have law based on Sharia or anything of the sort. Meanwhile, you should also sympathise with non-Armenians who are citizens of Armenia. Or non-Poles who are residents of Poland. Or non Greeks who are citizens of Greece. After all, how does a Turk feel when they are not the same as a Greek citizen of Greece? So you better, if you are to be consistent, and back up your "I am not an anti-semite" statement, argue to abandon ethnic based nations, too.

Or, more likely, you just want it to apply this to Israel - to the Jewish state. Maybe not... but I wouldn't be surprised.

As for demographics, which deals with partition Israel... the rest was a result of Arab agression in wars:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html#b.


these boundaries were based solely on demographics. The borders of the Jewish State were arranged with no consideration of security; hence, the new state's frontiers were virtually indefensible. Overall, the Jewish State was to be comprised of roughly 5,500 square miles and the population was to be 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs. The Arab State was to be 4,500 square miles with a population of 804,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews.3a Though the Jews were allotted more total land, the majority of that land was in the desert.

Further complicating the situation was the UN majority's insistence that Jerusalem remain apart from both states and be administered as an international zone. This arrangement left more than 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem isolated from their country and circumscribed by the Arab state.

in addition to roughly 600,000 Jews, 350,000 Arabs resided in the Jewish state created by partition. Approximately 92,000 Arabs lived in Tiberias, Safed, Haifa and Bet Shean, and another 40,000 were Bedouins, most of whom were living in the desert. The remainder of the Arab population was spread throughout the Jewish state and occupied most of the agricultural land.5

According to British statistics, more than 70% of the land in what would become Israel was not owned by Arab farmers, it belonged to the mandatory government. Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. Nearly 9% of the land was owned by Jews and about 3% by `Arabs who became citizens of Israel. That means only about 18% belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion of Israel.6


I edited the above to include more of the quotes about partition Israel - what the demographics actually were (as opposed to projected) and land ownership.