Advice on moving to Israel.

[JewishGirl]

Can anyone give me some advice on moving to Israel as far as jobs, somewhere to live, etc? I'm going to college right now, but I am playing with the idea of moving there. How similar/different is it than the US?

As far as jobs go, do jobs there pay as much as jobs in the US?

I hear the nightlife there is great. What can anyone tell me about this?

[amiracle]

College is a great time to make the big move. Come to Hebrew U is my advice. They've got an excellent program to acclimate olim. They'll teach you the language, introduce you to Israeli culture, and it's just a wonderful atmosphere studying in the capital. (Plus, if you come in the summer and enroll in the ulpan, there's a chance you'll have me as your teacher!)
I'm double-majoring and going into my senior year (hopefully), so if you've any questions, dilemmas, feel free to ask.
And as for night-life, there's plenty of that in Jerusalem, though if it's really important to you you might consider Tel Aviv, 'cause they have the beach.
Good luck.

[Womble]

Can anyone give me some advice on moving to Israel as far as jobs, somewhere to live, etc? I'm going to college right now, but I am playing with the idea of moving there. How similar/different is it than the US?

As far as jobs go, do jobs there pay as much as jobs in the US?

I hear the nightlife there is great. What can anyone tell me about this?
It all depends on what you're looking for.

The Gush Dan area (Tel-Aviv and the surrounding cities) is probably the best as far as general convenience goes. It has the most jobs, the most nightlife the most shopping malls, movies, theaters, etc. However, it is also the most expensive place to live in. Smaller towns like Arad, Maalot or Carmiel are perfect for people seeking cheap rent and quiet life- but employment and entertainment are a problem. Jerusalem probably has it all and some more, but that is where half the terrorist attacks take place, and people who are uncomfortable with having too many Orthodox or Arab neighbors tend to avoid it (although judging by your other posts I don't think you would have a problem with that).

I suggest Haifa, an excellent all-around place of residence. The only trouble with it is that it climbs up a pretty big mountain, which makes bicycling somewhat problematic ;)

[Gilgamesh]

I second Amiracle. It a good advice.

As for Jobs go, unlike the USA, it is hard finding job in "inpracticle" fields. Litrature, philosophy, history, arts, jurnalism, education or psychology (first degree) would lead you nowhere. At best you can become a school teacher, which is not a very good job here.

The good jobs in Israel are in the Army, the goverment, turism, promotion (advertasing), high-tech industry, food industry, chemistry and constraction. Good education is engineering (any one), logistics, economics, science (advanced degrees only).

Law and medicine are good jobs as always, but its a difficult market, as the Israeli demand for these jobs is saturated. Even an MD has problem finding his place. Israel has one of the countries with the most lawers and doctors per capita in the world!. Like jurnalism, you won't find a good job without good conections. Which most people have not.

[Gilgamesh]

It all depends on what you're looking for.

The Gush Dan area (Tel-Aviv and the surrounding cities) is probably the best as far as general convenience goes. It has the most jobs, the most nightlife the most shopping malls, movies, theaters, etc. However, it is also the most expensive place to live in. Smaller towns like Arad, Maalot or Carmiel are perfect for people seeking cheap rent and quiet life- but employment and entertainment are a problem. Jerusalem probably has it all and some more, but that is where half the terrorist attacks take place, and people who are uncomfortable with having too many Orthodox or Arab neighbors tend to avoid it (although judging by your other posts I don't think you would have a problem with that).

I suggest Haifa, an excellent all-around place of residence. The only trouble with it is that it climbs up a pretty big mountain, which makes bicycling somewhat problematic ;)

You forgot to mention Be'er Sheva!! :mad: ;)

Be'er Sheva is a big city with adquate night life, very good university, large hospital (second or thierd largest in Israel) and good employment oppertunites, in chemisty, army, security industires and logistics.

As it goes for nightlife and entertainment, you can find some all over Israel. Israel is a VERY small country. Recent improvements in trasportation (like rail road service) makes it possible to reach any place from everyplace within an hour and a half.

[Womble]

You forgot to mention Be'er Sheva!! :mad: ;)

Be'er Sheva is a big city with adquate night life, very good university, large hospital (second or thierd largest in Israel) and good employment oppertunites, in chemisty, army, security industires and logistics.
Beer Sheva is a jobless frying pan, and their university is the worst in the country. They have plenty of room in the dormitories though, because not many apply.


As it goes for nightlife and entertainment, you can find some all over Israel. Israel is a VERY small country. Recent improvements in trasportation (like rail road service) makes it possible to reach any place from everyplace within an hour and a half.
LOL! Do try getting to Safed in an hour and a half with public transportation from everyplace. Hell, try getting from Ramle to Tel-Aviv in that time.

[Gilgamesh]

Beer Sheva is a jobless frying pan, and their university is the worst in the country. They have plenty of room in the dormitories though, because not many apply. Well, you are out dated. When you talk about "bad university" vs. "Good university", you must be more detailed about the subjects concerned. I agree that scientific and social sciences and history are very weak in BGU, but on the other hand, biology, medicine and engineering are very good, second only to Technion and Hadasa, respectively. I never knew the dorms are empty... its news to me!

LOL! Do try getting to Safed in an hour and a half with public transportation from everyplace. Hell, try getting from Ramle to Tel-Aviv in that time.I've last been to Safed three years ago.
I live outside Be'er Sheva (on holidays) and Ramat Gan on working days.
As for Ramle, try getting a train instead of getting stuck in traffic, and you'll get back home in time for supper.

[NiekNL]

Well, I've never been to Israel so I shouldn't interrupt,
But, I warn you not to go study in Europe.
This continent is ruined.
You won't feel pleasant in europe.
So go to Israel> ;)

[golani]

Well, I've never been to Israel so I shouldn't interrupt,
But, I warn you not to go study in Europe.
This continent is ruined.
You won't feel pleasant in europe.
So go to Israel> ;)

NiekNl, you are right
Jews future is over in Europe
Either dhimitude in eurabia or Jews with all the hassles in Israel
Us jewry is decreasing too thru assimilation
Tough to be a jew,tougher for our kids to keep the tradition... :rolleyes:

[KettleWhistle]

Well, you are out dated. When you talk about "bad university" vs. "Good university", you must be more detailed about the subjects concerned. I agree that scientific and social sciences and history are very weak in BGU, but on the other hand, biology, medicine and engineering are very good, second only to Technion and Hadasa, respectively. I never knew the dorms are empty... its news to me!


I have two research collaborators at BGU, and according to them a lot of development been going on there, plenty of invenstment into new buildings, ect. Aside from that, a little company that I manage till the end of the month just established a "research facility" in the Beer-Sheva area--a large A-frame hangar that came cheap, and provides more than enough room for the two, soon to be three, people working there.

But other than that, yeah, the place is a desert $hithole.

[wellofvow]

In my lifetime, I've morphed from hick-from-the-midwest to hick-from-Beer Sheva. I've lived in Beer Sheva for 35 years, moved here as 24-year-old bride.

There is no nightlife as you envision it in Beer Sheva. There are no good restaurants, not even "interesting" restaurants. Most young people are already attached. It's pretty depressing to be a young single here.

However, if you are cerebral, Ben Gurion University is for you. For many years, it has been acknowledged as excellent in engineering and computer sciences. Recently, the National Institute for Biotechnology Research was established - at BGU. A few months ago, the Marcus Family donated $200 million dollars - to BGU. This is the largest donation ever made to an Israeli university. There are programs initiated and ongoing at BGU that do not exist elsewhere in Israel, and are scarce throughout the world, such as a bachelor's degree in paramedics (emergency medicine technology). My son just completed his master's at BGU in molecular biology, and was snatched up by the Weizmann Institute, started working in May on his PhD in the lab of Yossi Yarden, the Dean of the graduate school. My son's significant other finished her master's in plant biology and was immediately accepted at Hebrew University Faculty of Agriculture for her PhD studies. BGU the worst university in Israel? - doesn't sound like it to me.

The job market is difficult. There are many Russians in Beer Sheva, so priority is often, but not always, to Hebrew- plus Russian-speakers. This may change if hi-tech and rising biotech industries move here.

Haifa is an interesting city, but the air pollution there is a real and present threat to life. I didn't get the business about cycling there - my Haifa son-in-law is a serious cycler.

Jerusalem is the soul of Israel. It is beautiful, fascinating, endlessly exciting. However, it is also the most expensive place in Israel to live (and possibly the world). Also, it takes nerves of steel to cope with the palpable tension.

I dislike Tel Aviv myself, and always have. It is flashy, yuppie, dirty, and too big-city for me. My other son has lived there for 10 years, and wouldn't dream of being anywhere else - in Israel, at least. There are satellite towns and cities around Tel Aviv that seem very charming passing through, like Kfar Saba. Maybe one of these....?

[JewishGirl]

Wow, I haven't had time to get online since I posted this. I had no idea I'd have ten responses by now. :)

The Gush Dan area (Tel-Aviv and the surrounding cities) is probably the best as far as general convenience goes. It has the most jobs, the most nightlife the most shopping malls, movies, theaters, etc.

This sounds like what I'm looking for. Ulike a lot of people who prefer open spaces and peace and quiet, I prefer the city nightlife. The biggest thing though, is having a good paying job.

Also as amiracle pointed out, it has a beach. That's a very big plus. I really don't think I could move to Israel without being by the beach.

I only have time to read a few posts for now. I have to get to bed soon. I'll have a chance to come back this weekend, probably Sunday. Thanks everybody.

[amiracle]

Without question, Tel Aviv is the place for nightlife. It's not just the beach - Tel Aviv also has a very modern, young, and liberal population. As much as I truly love Jerusalem, the capital does make me feel cramped a lot of times. It's a city with a serious identity crisis, a multiple personality complex, and virtually no regard for nature anymore. :mad:
Thankfully, my mom lives just outside Tel Aviv, so I'm afforded a welcome reprieve from Jerusalem's attendant pressures when I need one. Tel Aviv is a relatively harmonious city: it's got broad parks, clean streets, plenty of recreational options, and just a pleasant ambiance Jerusalem sadly lacks.
If you've been following the news, though, you'll have heard about Tel Aviv University's financial predicament. Frankly, it looks very discouraging. But then you could say every university's got its problems: Haifa is <50% Jewish, Hebrew U is split up into four campuses, Ben Gurion is in a hellhole, Bar Ilan is too religious, and Tel Aviv's broke.
I don't agree that Jerusalem is an especially expensive place to live. If you do your shopping at the shuk and live modestly, you can maintain a reasonably comfortable life.
You'll see when you get here, there's a rivalry between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. In the end, my loyalties are with the latter; I just go to Tel Aviv for some peace and quiet and a cold beer on the promenade along the beach. For all its urban overdevelopment and Chelmic planning blunders, I still think Jerusalem is the most amazing city in the world.

[Gilgamesh]

Also as amiracle pointed out, it has a beach. That's a very big plus. I really don't think I could move to Israel without being by the beach. Just like wellofvow said, I don't like Tel Aviv much either.
I do prefer Hertzelia though...

There are quite a few beachs in Israel. Most beautiful of those are in Gush Katiff. Eilat, then Ceasaria (if you able to charm yourself a VERY rich husband, you can move there), Naharia, Natanya, Haifa and Tel Aviv are toward the end, both pollution wise, and over crowded.

Antoher plus about Be'er Sheva, btw, is the fact you'll live 45 minutes drive from the the dead sea.

Be'er Sheva has couple of pubs and discos, like the "Forum". But I don't sure you'd like the native population. Many of the students return to where ever they came from on weakends.

I only have time to read a few posts for now. I have to get to bed soon. I'll have a chance to come back this weekend, probably Sunday. Thanks everybody. I don't know if it's news for you, Sunday is a full working day in Israel. Friday and Sabbath are the resting day, where on Sabbath everything get closed. (except in Tel Aviv area).

[Gilgamesh]

Non Israelis, greater the the fight between leftists and rightists, the divid between pro-Jerusalemites and Tel Avivians are far greater.

Without question, Tel Aviv is the place for nightlife. It's not just the beach - Tel Aviv also has a very modern, young, and liberal population. Also Jerusalem, despite it's image as dark, religious, poor and old. There best club in Israel is located in Jerusalem, not Tel Aviv. Ha'Oman 17 is in Jerusalem.

As much as I truly love Jerusalem, the capital does make me feel cramped a lot of times. It's a city with a serious identity crisis, a multiple personality complex, In Tel Aviv people speak in funny accents, and all the shop names are in English and the people of Tel Aviv delude themselves to be Londoners or New Yorkers... They are phonies!

You know how a Tel-Avivian speaks Hebrew? Every other word is English, while they can't handle each of these languages adequatly. Stupid! They are so full of themselves, they can't imagion life outside of Bavly!

and virtually no regard for nature anymore. :mad: It's going to change. Few weeks ago a general developing plan for Jerusalem was introduced. In Jerusalem there are alot of open areas outside the central city, between the neighborhoods. (each neiborhood is as big as a town).

I agree with much of what wellofvow had said, yet I must remind her Old Julia "ice cream Be'er-Sheva" is the BEST ice cream in Israel, and "Beith ha'phull" the only colinar "institution" we can recommand. Be'er Sheva has the Forum disco club, 3 malls (one of them is an open mall, called "Big" ), and we have several pubs. Be'er Sheva has two theaters and the theired is under constraction. Be'er Sheva theater is very good group of young actors, with rich repertuar.

[Emunah]

Gilgamesh that is funny! The fight of pride between two cities? :rolleyes: I am sure it would not take too long to find out which one you like Jewish Girl, as there are a limited number of stops to find out what suits you.

I am not a "city" person. It would not suit me to be surrounded by so many people all of the time. It makes me feel crowded...oh well...not much I can do about that.

I hope you find your perfect city JewishGirl. :D

[KettleWhistle]

Tel-Aviv is the only real city in Israel. Everything else is just suburbia. Sad, but true.

[zodiaka]

Hi!

I am a female student and looking for a room in Tel Aviv from mid August until mid October. I am going to do an internship there in this period . Can somebody help me? Does somebody know somebody, looking for a roommate in this time?

It is quite difficult for me to get a room, because I cannot read hebrew.

thanks a lot

dorothea

doro731@gmx.de

[Gilgamesh]

Hi!

I am a female student and looking for a room in Tel Aviv from mid August until mid October. I am going to do an internship there in this period . Can somebody help me? Does somebody know somebody, looking for a roommate in this time?

It is quite difficult for me to get a room, because I cannot read hebrew.

thanks a lot

dorothea

doro731@gmx.de
There shouldn't be much of a problem, since most students leave Tel Aviv at that time. Use private message to be in touch with me, and I can help you.

[amiracle]

zodiaka,

I recommend you poke around here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taanglo/ .
I know how difficult it is for non-Hebrew speakers to manage in the big cities here. But if you know a few people, it can be a much smoother experience. Introduce yourself at Taanglo, tell them you need a place; someone'll probably offer you friendly assistance.
Other than that, good luck. :)

[goliath]

zodiaka,

I recommend you poke around here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taanglo/ .
I know how difficult it is for non-Hebrew speakers to manage in the big cities here. But if you know a few people, it can be a much smoother experience. Introduce yourself at Taanglo, tell them you need a place; someone'll probably offer you friendly assistance.
Other than that, good luck. :)

I need badly a place in paradise.....could you please make a reservation for me ...?

Please give my best regards to Medio....and Newsmen.....they both are the nerve of that forum........ :p

[wellofvow]

Thanks Gilgamesh! I'm not really sure what the hostility towards Beer Sheva is from. Oh, sometimes the "kapara"s will make my eyes roll, and when the Russian boys get tanked up on Friday night, they get pretty loud and scary.

BGU is not close to being the worst university in Israel. What's your problem? Didn't they accept you?

Omer, one of the bedroom communities around Beer Sheva, recently was ranked the best place to live in Israel. Now, if Beer Sheva is a "hellhole" and the university so bad, why would these "best" people be living in Omer - their kids go to high schools and university in Beer Sheva, they go to Beer Sheva for most medical services beyond the family practitioner.

BUT, Beer Sheva is dull, face it - in spite of the theater and the Sinfonietta. I have been scared of Glida Beer Sheva since it was closed for a while many years ago by the Board of Health. I myself like Felafel HaGesher - did you know that on Friday mornings, the owner of Felafel HaGesher has a fabulous catering business at Bet HaHayal? Everybody goes there when they are in a pinch for Friday night or Saturday meal, or if they want to supplement.

No beach! We have no beach! No restaurants! No nightlife. None. Beer Sheva may be great for some people, but not for others. Still, this is no reason to call it a hellhole. Try Ofakim.

[KettleWhistle]

A suburbia is suburbia. No matter how many theaters or Sizzlers' (or the local versions of these) you build there, it's a hellhole by default.
Try Ofakim.
LOL. A friend of mine lived in Mitzpe Ramon for a year and half. Try to top that.

[Mediocrates]

Try Birmingham, Alabama or Tulsa, OK. You will come to understand why K-Mart sells guns.

[KettleWhistle]

I lived in Tulsa for almost two months.

[arielch]

well if you think that raanana in a hellhole................

for my,y hate tel aviv,full with gays,druggies,hookers,leftistand hippies

[FOGOMAINS]

well if you think that raanana in a hellhole................

for my,y hate tel aviv,full with gays,druggies,hookers,leftistand hippies

What do all these Europeans in Tel Aviv? Send them back home :rolleyes:

[NiekNL]

What do all these Europeans in Tel Aviv? Send them back home :rolleyes:

Well, Europeans in Israel> can't be the bad ones right? They stupid = majority of Europeans would never go to Israel for sure.

[KettleWhistle]

well if you think that raanana in a hellhole................

for my,y hate tel aviv,full with gays,druggies,hookers,leftistand hippies

Yeah, I was pretty frustrated with the gay druggies too the first time I was there. There was a little "gay" cafe where they had a bunch of bongs and pipes, and the people who ran it were obviously stoned, but they wouldn't sell me any pot. Bustards!

[FOGOMAINS]

Well, Europeans in Israel> can't be the bad ones right? They stupid = majority of Europeans would never go to Israel for sure.

I'd like to visit Israel. Maybe 2006

[NiekNL]

I'd like to visit Israel. Maybe 2006

I wanna go to :cool: , if not this year it will be 2006 as well :cool:

[Hindu+Jewish]

Question- Can non-Jewish people go to Israel and convert to Judaism? I was just curious as someone asked me this question.

Plus if you can convert and you volunteer for the army upto what age are you allowed to be in the IDF?

Does IDF take non-Jewish mercenaries who want to fight against Islam or fight for Israel?

[Womble]

Question- Can non-Jewish people go to Israel and convert to Judaism? I was just curious as someone asked me this question.
Of course they can. However, converting to Judaisms is much more complicated a procedure than, say converting to Christianity.


Plus if you can convert and you volunteer for the army upto what age are you allowed to be in the IDF?
Normally, the service is for ages 18 to 21. Reserve duty is till the age 45. However, if you want to be a career soldier, you can stay in till the pension age.


Does IDF take non-Jewish mercenaries who want to fight against Islam or fight for Israel?
If you come to the IDF and tell them you want to "fight against Islam", they will most likely kick you out even if you are an Israeli citizen. In fact, "playing a fanatic" has become one of the ways to dodge combat unit service- some use it to make sure they get a safe, job-like service and never see a gun. Nobody needs a trigger happy Arab hater in a combat unit, where disobedience often equals disaster.

As for foreign volunteers wishing to fight for Israel, its an interesting question, worth researching. I know that non-Jewish people who come to Israel in the framework of family reunion, but are not yet eligible to full citizenship, can serve in the IDF. Non-Jewish foreigners, I am not sure, but I don't believe so.

[Hindu+Jewish]

Thanks for the info. It was not for me btw. Mind you I did come very close to marrying an Israely girl but it did not work out thanks to her mum who wanted a Jewish boy :-)

[KettleWhistle]

Question- Can non-Jewish people go to Israel and convert to Judaism? I was just curious as someone asked me this question.
Technically yes, and one doesn't need to come to Israel for that. But there is no need for it, and it isn't a Jewish tradition to seek converts. Judaism treats everyone as equal, and those who seek conversion are (or at least should be) turned away.

Does IDF take non-Jewish mercenaries who want to fight against Islam or fight for Israel? IDF doesn't fight Islam or Muslims. It's purpose is to protect Israel, and there are Muslims who serve in the IDF. A foreign person can volunteer in the IDF, but not in any combat duty, and s/he will not be given a weapon, and will not be allowed to use one. There is a volunteer program in the U.S. and Canada where people can volunteer to do support duties, such as maintenance of the equipment, kitchen duties, etc., but nothing that involves the use of weapons or potential combat exposure.

[arielch]

sorry but you can serve in machal,they are foreign volunteers who serve in the nachal infantri brigade as combat soldiers 14 months

[KettleWhistle]

Is there a web site that you might know of? I know many people who'd be very interested.

[minusthejihad]

If I signed up today, how long would it take for me to become a Defensive Wall sniper who sits in a look-out tower and snipes jihadees trying to get over the wall? A more rewarding career I can not imagine. :)

[Mediocrates]

Is there a web site that you might know of? I know many people who'd be very interested.


http://www.mahal2000.com/

[golani]

Tel-Aviv is the only real city in Israel. Everything else is just suburbia. Sad, but true.


Kettlewhistle,You have to try Katzrin in the Golan Heights:small city,superb unspoilt nature around

I am just back from there ,what a bliss...

By the way,a friend of mine lives in Ariel,Shomron,beautiful city too:college has just been upgraded to university status to piss off leftists and all peace lovers :D

[wellofvow]

Tel-Aviv is the only real city in Israel. Everything else is just suburbia. Sad, but true.

Huh. And on how many years' residence in Israel do you base this sweeping statement?

And the statement is pretty silly and yuppie. Jerusalem and Haifa were "real cities" with their own distinctive characters - and their characters are very, very far from "suburbia" - long before Tel Aviv had a single restaurant.

Besides, the reality is, as I just wrote Mediocrates privately, that the whole country is just a tiny village.

[wellofvow]

A suburbia is suburbia. No matter how many theaters or Sizzlers' (or the local versions of these) you build there, it's a hellhole by default.

LOL. A friend of mine lived in Mitzpe Ramon for a year and half. Try to top that.

A friend of yours is not you. YOU should check out Ofakim. It's a real town, about 20 minutes west and south of Beer Sheva. One of highest unemployment rates in the country. It is a real hole. My unlamented father-in-law pronounced it, well, you can guess. The Hebrew means horizons, which is nice. It sure doesn't live up to its name.

You seem to base a lot of what you say on second-hand information. Is this really so, or just me?

[KettleWhistle]

A friend of yours is not you. YOU should check out Ofakim.
Why? To see a place where there is nothing to see? :)

You seem to base a lot of what you say on second-hand information. Is this really so, or just me?
It's just you. I've been all over Israel, with extensive stays pretty much everywhere. I just don't consider a suburubia that dies out after 6 pm to be a city. That's suburbia, nor urbia. Actually, L.A. is not that great in this respect either. All the zoning regulations and the dry law that prohibits sales of alcohol past 2am effectively shut down any night life here.

[amiracle]

Besides, the reality is, as I just wrote Mediocrates privately, that the whole country is just a tiny village.



I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but the whole country is certainly not just a tiny village. Unless that was an intended hyperbole, it's a rather brazen thing to say. There is a wide variety of regional accents and social behaviors, including dress and etiquette, not to mention climate and visual scenery that changes with repect to location. Each time I make the commute from the capital to Tel Aviv, I'm struck anew by the stark contrast between the two cities and their inhabitants. Whenever I'm called up for reserve duty, I always go with a sense of anticipation at being stationed someplace new, different, and unfamiliar. And I can say from experience that the girls certainly have different mentalities depending on where they're from in the country. In many ways, Israel is more heterogeneous than Europe or the United States.

[JewishGirl]

Us jewry is decreasing too thru assimilation
Tough to be a jew,tougher for our kids to keep the tradition... :rolleyes:

That's why it's important for us to move to Israel. We won't keep losing people through assimilation in other countries.

[JewishGirl]

Jerusalem is the soul of Israel. It is beautiful, fascinating, endlessly exciting. However, it is also the most expensive place in Israel to live (and possibly the world). Also, it takes nerves of steel to cope with the palpable tension.

I have already pretty much made up my mind on Tel Aviv (mostly because of it's beaches and nightlife), but I'm curious to know what you find fascinating about Jerusalem. I'd really like to here more about it.

I dislike Tel Aviv myself, and always have. It is flashy, yuppie, dirty, and too big-city for me. My other son has lived there for 10 years, and wouldn't dream of being anywhere else - in Israel, at least. There are satellite towns and cities around Tel Aviv that seem very charming passing through, like Kfar Saba. Maybe one of these....?

Your son sounds alot like myself. :)

[JewishGirl]

Just like wellofvow said, I don't like Tel Aviv much either.
I do prefer Hertzelia though...


I know Herzilya is a resort town. Is it also a place where someone can live and have a career? What's the job market like there?

[Gilgamesh]

I know Herzilya is a resort town. Is it also a place where someone can live and have a career? What's the job market like there?

As a resort, Hertzelia, is quite expansive, there is nice beach, malls and several hotels.

Herztelia is also the location of "the interdeciplinary center - Raichman collage" which has the ambition to become "Israel's Harward". And they have good chances about that. Focusing on only four subjects and employing only the best of the best in each field (like former minister and professor for law, Amnon Rubinstein as law studies dean). So (very) rich kids and pilots and former commando's (who got the schollarships) study there.

The town of Hertzelia has become a high-tech center over the roaring 90's. There is also an industrial quarter, for light industry (like poster printing... scitext, cell phone company "cellcom" headquarters as few examples).
There are hotels and huge malls ("Cinema-city" and the "Marina mall"), both poor people neighborhood, and extremly rich poeple houses, the kind of people coming back home from work in a helicopter.

As for employment. If you're young and educated, and have perfect english, you have the best employment oppertunities in Israel.

Natanya is more of a resort town, better turist oriented, more hotels and better prices. Knowing french there, is a plus.

[Mediocrates]

What do you mean by Perfect english?

[JewishGirl]

What do you mean by Perfect english?

He means me. I'm there. ;)

[wellofvow]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but the whole country is certainly not just a tiny village. Unless that was an intended hyperbole, it's a rather brazen thing to say. There is a wide variety of regional accents and social behaviors, including dress and etiquette, not to mention climate and visual scenery that changes with repect to location. ....

Um, sorry, I meant that in a nice way. Well, I think it's nice.

My daughter (Beer Sheva) met her husband (Haifa) on a beach in Eilat, where she was working and he was doing miluim (army reserve duty). As the wedding approached, we learned that a ben garin of the bride's mother did miluim with the groom's father. Likewise, another bat garin of the bride's mother lived just down the street from the groom's parents.

Also: When my son was undergoing security check for his present job, the guy asked him where he's from. Beer Sheva. Oh, the guy said, my grandmother lives there, on XX street. My son said, Hey, MY grandmother lives on that street too. Turns out that the two savtaot lived across the street from each other and were good friends.

Now, how often does this happen anywhere else? Really? That's what I meant by the whole country being a small village. Nothing derogatory. I think that it's lovely.

[Ahava]

Hm, all interesting. My biggest hesitation about aliya is indeed the job market. I'm studying psychology and I've heard that in Israel it's particularly hard to enroll in the psychology's Master degree program. Can someone tell me more about this? Also, how is the market for people who studied psychology? Would it matter whether I did my studies in Europe or Israel? (if so, which is better?)

Also, yes I love Herzliya but there's the money issue.

[Toga]

Hm, all interesting. My biggest hesitation about aliya is indeed the job market. I'm studying psychology and I've heard that in Israel it's particularly hard to enroll in the psychology's Master degree program. Can someone tell me more about this? Also, how is the market for people who studied psychology? Would it matter whether I did my studies in Europe or Israel? (if so, which is better?)

Also, yes I love Herzliya but there's the money issue.

The money issue should only come up if you are over 50 but not of the retirement age yet.

If you are under 30, healthy, vibrant, smart female the sky is the limit.

[Toga]

Can anyone give me some advice on moving to Israel as far as jobs, somewhere to live, etc? I'm going to college right now, but I am playing with the idea of moving there. How similar/different is it than the US?

As far as jobs go, do jobs there pay as much as jobs in the US?

I hear the nightlife there is great. What can anyone tell me about this?


the Tel-Aviv nightlife rivals at least New York and London if it is not better...Most people do not know it but Tel-Aviv is a never-ending party. Israel does not have all the conveniences America offers but you can get what you need. The food is far superior to most American products. The educational opportunities are limitless. The Jews are news fanatics. If you can switch off your radio and TV and go about your daily life you will have sanity otherwise it will drive you nuts. Also, you will have to learn to use your elbow a lot. At the beginning it will be a shock as you will be amazed at the behavior of some people. You will consider them to be very rude but 6 months later you will act the same and will not notice it. Also, you will keep in mind that in times of tragedy the person that rudely cut in your line could be the first one to come to your rescue risking his/hers life.

[Ahava]

The money issue should only come up if you are over 50 but not of the retirement age yet.

If you are under 30, healthy, vibrant, smart female the sky is the limit.

That's what I like to hear, very encouraging, thank you. :)
I'm just so afraid to get disappointed because people keep telling me life in Israel is so hard. especially when you come from a country like Holland and are used to a comfortable living. But I love the people, the culture, the weather!, the food, the language, all that. I'm currently in Holland and I know I don't wanna be here anymore - doesn't feel quite like home even though I'm born here and all that.

[Toga]

That's what I like to hear, very encouraging, thank you. :)
I'm just so afraid to get disappointed because people keep telling me life in Israel is so hard. especially when you come from a country like Holland and are used to a comfortable living. But I love the people, the culture, the weather!, the food, the language, all that. I'm currently in Holland and I know I don't wanna be here anymore - doesn't feel quite like home even though I'm born here and all that.

Holland is indeed a very good country with a lot of social benefits, etc. However, considering the current political winds it is questionable if it will continue to be good.

The Jews are meshugas! On occasion we can be unruly and we can make our lives very difficult. Look at the leftist Israeli Shenkin-type Jews. They would rather have the Palestinian Arabs in their neighborhood than the Orthodox Jews. They have totally dismissed the fact that their own ancestors were none other that the Orthodox Jews.

So, you have to expect the craziness. However, if you intend to bring up your children Jewish with the Jewish traditions and culture free of the Diaspora complexes Israel is the best place for it.

[Toga]

..and by the way, at times you will be very disappointed. Any transplanted tree initially goes into shock. However, the time will heal and the experience will be rewarding and enriching. You will learn new things, new ways, create new friends, reach new goals and test your abilities on more than one occasion.

Just don't hit an Israeli bureaucrat with a stick even if he/she deserves it. The main thing you will be among your people even if you get angry at some of them on occasion.

[Ahava]

Holland is indeed a very good country with a lot of social benefits, etc. However, considering the current political winds it is questionable if it will continue to be good.

The Jews are meshugas! On occasion we can be unruly and we can make our lives very difficult. Look at the leftist Israeli Shenkin-type Jews. They would rather have the Palestinian Arabs in their neighborhood than the Orthodox Jews. They have totally dismissed the fact that their own ancestors were none other that the Orthodox Jews.

So, you have to expect the craziness. However, if you intend to bring up your children Jewish with the Jewish traditions and culture free of the Diaspora complexes Israel is the best place for it.

On one hand it's true what you're saying about bringing up children in Israel. On the other hand it's the same thing that for me is a consideration to the opposite - I raise my children in a difficult country where they may have less opportunities, career wise, in many ways more difficult. Many Israelis also want to get out.

Then I also don't know what'd be the best place to live in. Again, I love Herzliya, but so expensive.. Jerusalem is very special and beautiful, but too religious for me to live in, Tel Aviv on the other hand is too secular..

[frizzer1]

Then I also don't know what'd be the best place to live in. Again, I love Herzliya, but so expensive.. Jerusalem is very special and beautiful, but too religious for me to live in, Tel Aviv on the other hand is too secular..

Ahava...you're back! Nice to see you again.
Anyway you have quite a list of potential problems to deal with it seems.
I love jerusalem and hate dirty dusty Beersheva.Have never spent much time in Tel Aviv.
You might like the new spots near jerusalem like Mevaseret and Beit Shemesh.They seem to have everything a young family would need,except that it may be too expensive.
My problem is different than just where in Israel to live.I feel isolated from the rest of the world when I'm there...a bit claustrophobic..And I lose my identity as jew there.Sounds strange I know but when everyone is jewish I no longer feel special being a jew.In canada I'm aware of my jewishness at all times and it give me my identity I guess.
Anyway, I hope you can work things out.

[Toga]

On one hand it's true what you're saying about bringing up children in Israel. On the other hand it's the same thing that for me is a consideration to the opposite - I raise my children in a difficult country where they may have less opportunities, career wise, in many ways more difficult. Many Israelis also want to get out.

Then I also don't know what'd be the best place to live in. Again, I love Herzliya, but so expensive.. Jerusalem is very special and beautiful, but too religious for me to live in, Tel Aviv on the other hand is too secular..

...too secular, too religious...pleaseeeee!

There are many religious people in Tel Aviv and secular in Jerusalem.

5.3M Jews reside in Israel. There should be at least one remaining comfortable place for a few emigrants.

Do not listen to the Israeli shticks but see what they do.

Most Israelis stay in Israel but it is a country of complainers. They complain about anything and everything under the sky. Patience is not a virtue in Israel. They also have very little respect for authority. Everybody is a prime minister, a general or at least a minister. One has to be a superman or a superwoman to govern and lead the Jews. However, despite their constant criticism of Israel and inborn cynicism they love their tiny Jewish place which they defend with passion and vigor.

Also, they miss Israel and appreciate it a lot more when they leave Israel.

if one picks a country of residence strictly on the business/professional opportunities neither Holland nor Israel can match the US in that regard. However, Israel offers a Jew something very precious that no other place can match. They may not hire you in Israel because you are unclean, poorly educated, unfriendly, etc. but they will never turn you down because you are Jewish.

Think about this. Could Arik Sharon, a pudgy, short, religious Jewish man despite his brilliance become the president of the USA or the PM of the UK? Could he be elected in Holland?

Some Jews could only fullfill their aspirations in no other place but Israel.

[KSO]

Think about this. Could Arik Sharon, a pudgy, short, religious Jewish man despite his brilliance become the president of the USA or the PM of the UK? Could he be elected in Holland?
l.

No, that is one of the reasons Israelis are immigrating to countries like... the US and Holland!

[Womble]

Ahava...you're back! Nice to see you again.
Anyway you have quite a list of potential problems to deal with it seems.
I love jerusalem and hate dirty dusty Beersheva.Have never spent much time in Tel Aviv.
You might like the new spots near jerusalem like Mevaseret and Beit Shemesh.They seem to have everything a young family would need,except that it may be too expensive.
I stll say Haifa represents good balance. Medium size city, fairly good night life,, sea within reach, moderate prices and not the worst job market in the country. Plus you get to live on a mountain!

The downside, of course, is that bicycling around the city is quite difficult. :D


My problem is different than just where in Israel to live.I feel isolated from the rest of the world when I'm there...a bit claustrophobic..And I lose my identity as jew there.Sounds strange I know but when everyone is jewish I no longer feel special being a jew.In canada I'm aware of my jewishness at all times and it give me my identity I guess.
You'll get used to it eventually. In Israel, there is no need to keep your shield up all the time. Everyone's Jewish. Kind of deprives you of being special- but at the same time you can afford to live a normal life. And don't worry, your identity will be back the moment you step outside ;)

[Mira]

I stll say Haifa represents good balance. Medium size city, fairly good night life,, sea within reach, moderate prices and not the worst job market in the country. Plus you get to live on a mountain!

The downside, of course, is that bicycling around the city is quite difficult. :D

ding, ding, ding, ding...ding! I was thinking Haifa for Ahava too! And Ahava, if you plan to get an advanced degree in psychology, you will have plenty of opportunities for work in Israel...especially if you speak multiple languages. Oye! ;)

[minusthejihad]

there is no need to keep your shield up all the time.

I understand why Jews are like this in other parts of the world, especially back in the FSU, but here in America, I'm the "In Your Face" type of Jew. I love wearing shirts with IDF logos I'm sent by my cousin from Israel, big Stars of David on my necklace and Tshirts and my favorite shirt: "Am Yisrael Chai!" written in Arabic.

I'd put a bumber sticker on my car, but I am against bumper stickers in general and I can't be around my car enough to make sure it doesn't get vandalized. However, if I caught the perps, even my bat has a Magen David beveled in it. Need a permanent tatoo Marwan?

[Mira]

...even my bat has a Magen David beveled in it...
Love it! :D Now I want one too!

[minusthejihad]

Love it! :D Now I want one too!

Thanks. I got the idea from the Rick James (http://www.everyschool.org/u/global/darrellm/assignments/rickfist.jpg) story in the David Chappel show: UNITY (http://www.everyschool.org/u/global/darrellm/assignments/Untitled-1.gif)

Since I'll be married in just a few weeks, I may have to tone it down a bit. Right now I'm shopping for Ketubahs (http://www.e-ketubah.com/)!

[Mira]

Thanks. I got the idea from the Rick James (http://www.everyschool.org/u/global/darrellm/assignments/rickfist.jpg) story in the David Chappel show: UNITY (http://www.everyschool.org/u/global/darrellm/assignments/Untitled-1.gif)

Since I'll be married in just a few weeks, I may have to tone it down a bit. Right now I'm shopping for Ketubahs (http://www.e-ketubah.com/)!

Sweet! I like these two:

http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=lustrous

http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=eveningsavannah

though the first one, doesn't really seem very festive in that marriage sort of way. This one is good too: http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=andmybelovedismine

Hey, thanks, I might use this website for mine. Where are you guys going to spend your honeymoon?

[minusthejihad]

Sweet! I like these two:

http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=lustrous

http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=eveningsavannah

though the first one, doesn't really seem very festive in that marriage sort of way. This one is good too: http://shop.mpartworks.com/product.php?productid=andmybelovedismine

Hey, thanks, I might use this website for mine. Where are you guys going to spend your honeymoon?

Actually, we have several trips planned already for shopping in Chicago, a business trip to San Diego, another wedding in Savanah GA, and a trip meeting friends in Cancun, so we will wait until our first anniversary for our official Honeymoon. Where you headed?

[Mira]

Actually, we have several trips planned already for shopping in Chicago, a business trip to San Diego, another wedding in Savanah GA, and a trip meeting friends in Cancun, so we will wait until our first anniversary for our official Honeymoon. Where you headed?

We are going to go to Venice for a few days and then do a bicycle tour through Tuscany.

[Toga]

I understand why Jews are like this in other parts of the world, especially back in the FSU, but here in America, I'm the "In Your Face" type of Jew. I love wearing shirts with IDF logos I'm sent by my cousin from Israel, big Stars of David on my necklace and Tshirts and my favorite shirt: "Am Yisrael Chai!" written in Arabic.

I'd put a bumber sticker on my car, but I am against bumper stickers in general and I can't be around my car enough to make sure it doesn't get vandalized. However, if I caught the perps, even my bat has a Magen David beveled in it. Need a permanent tatoo Marwan?

All these things are wonderful but nationalism and zionism have never sustained the Jews while Judaism and the belief in the teachings of Torah have. Zionism is not a substitute for Judaism. It has been proven. There is a good reason why the intermarriage rate among the non-observant Jews is so high. In 1 generation the descendents of the intermarried Zionist Jews would look at Israel as just another state far away from the American shores.

There is nothing more important than creating a Jewish home, where the Jewish parents teach their Jewish children the Jewish traditions.

[minusthejihad]

We are going to go to Venice for a few days and then do a bicycle tour through Tuscany.

Yup, Italy. The only European country I look forward to going to, except for my tours of Holocaust sites and monuments to our fallen.

[minusthejihad]

All these things are wonderful but nationalism and zionism have never sustained the Jews while Judaism and the belief in the teachings of Torah have. Zionism is not a substitute for Judaism. It has been proven.

Funny, the last 4 generations of my family on both sides were completely secular, yet damned proud to be Jews and celebrated all the traditions. You can try to walls around my Jewishness all you like though.

There is nothing more important than creating a Jewish home, where the Jewish parents teach their Jewish children the Jewish traditions.

And we're doing that. You are personally invited to the Bris.

[Toga]

No, that is one of the reasons Israelis are immigrating to countries like... the US and Holland!

Ahava, here is a good example of a typical, complexed, secular Israeli Jew. You will see plenty of those in Israel. They will tell you that you must be crazy to leave Holland for Israel. They will tell you that they want to leave. They dump on Israel as much as they can. They have an innate need to criticize Israel and especially the government of Israel. Arik to them is the greatest SOB, Bibi is stupid and treacherous and Limor Livnat is a whore (zona).

However, when the time comes the very people who dump on Israel will defend the Jewish state with all their passion and vigor.

[Toga]

Funny, the last 4 generations of my family on both sides were completely secular, yet damned proud to be Jews and celebrated all the traditions. You can try to walls around my Jewishness all you like though.

And we're doing that. You are personally invited to the Bris.

#1. The Jews in the FSU were segregated

#2. The Jewish culture in the FSU was secular but rather strong

#3 In the FSU most Jews interracted only with Jews in most personal situations.

#4. In the FSU the Jewish origin was prominently displayed in every identification document.

#5 The Jewish origin was a hindrance in many areas thereby it created a second-class status.

The list can go on forever.

The US is very different. Anti-Semitism is present but not nearly as profound as in the FSU. Most of the times it is latent and requires a guessing game. In the FSU nobody had to guess. The Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians etc. etc. openly hated the Jews and at times killed them.

So, one should not try to draw a comparison because there is none.

In this country a Jew must make an effort to stay Jewish. In the FSU it was effortless. Jesus and Judaism do not mix.

2 days ago the chief Israeli rabbis traveled to Italy to meet with the pope at his summer residence. The reason they could not meet him in the Vatican is because they are not allowed to enter a church. Judaism forbids that.

On a personal level I wish you luck.

[minusthejihad]

So, one should not try to draw a comparison because there is none.

Thanks, I know very well about Judaism in the FSU and the restrictions placed on it. My FSU birth certificate says that I am Jewish, and I thank my parents for making that difficult choiuce clear.

Secondly, I was not trying to draw a comparison, I don't know where you got that.

Third, my family didn't believe in g-d and nor do I for other reasons than the fact that they weren't allowed to.

On a personal level I wish you luck.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[Toga]

Thanks, I know very well about Judaism in the FSU and the restrictions placed on it. My FSU birth certificate says that I am Jewish, and I thank my parents for making that difficult choiuce clear.

Secondly, I was not trying to draw a comparison, I don't know where you got that.

Third, my family didn't believe in g-d and nor do I for other reasons than the fact that they weren't allowed to.



Thanks. I appreciate it.

Again, I wish you luck but here, in the USA, you married a non-Jew and unless she properly converts the children will not be Jewish.

If in the FSU it was inappropriate to intermarry, as it created a tragic situation and an uproar in a Jewish family here in the USA the non-religious Jews don't fight it any longer.

..and by the way, you did draw a comparison by stating that 3 generations of your family were not religious. Again, in the FSU even if you did not think you were Jewish they were telling you were Jewish.

[minusthejihad]

Again, I wish you luck but here, in the USA, you married a non-Jew and unless she properly converts the children will not be Jewish.

Oh the irony. A secular Jew like me needs to seek the approval of a thirteenth century Rabbi and the marriage blessed by a g-d I don't believe in. Who knows, maybe I'll be smited.

[Toga]

Oh the irony. A secular Jew like me needs to seek the approval of a thirteenth century Rabbi and the marriage blessed by a g-d I don't believe in. Who knows, maybe I'll be smited.


Our sages are incredible. One can knock them down as much as he/she wants (and by the way, it is a typical response of a secular Jew who detests Jewishness and Judaism) but like it or not whatever our sages say does happen.

[Toga]

Keep something in mind, Zionism is a movement. It constantly changes. It tries to reinvent itself while Judaism is stable. It is our foundation and it sustained our people for over 5000 years. Those who break up with the Jewish traditions and beliefs and break the cycle of Jewisness will not be Jewish.

[minusthejihad]

Our sages are incredible. One can knock them down as much as he/she wants (and by the way, it is a typical response of a secular Jew who detests Jewishness and Judaism) but like it or not whatever our sages say does happen.

I am no Ophra. I love Jewishness and Judaism. I have nothing but love and respect for my religious Jewish brothers and sisters. I accept them for what they are do not ask them to change. I should hope they feel the same about me. You are trying to make an ant hill into a mountain, but there are no grounds for you to do so.

[Toga]

I am no Ophra. I love Jewishness and Judaism. I have nothing but love and respect for my religious Jewish brothers and sisters. I accept them for what they are do not ask them to change. I should hope they feel the same about me. You are trying to make an ant hill into a mountain, but there are no grounds for you to do so.

No...I am not. A non-religious Jew is as Jewish as the chief rabbi of Israel. It will probably surprise you but I am also a non-religious Jew. However, I have great respect for our Torah, sages, Judaism and of course Israel, the miracle of all times.

My points are clear:

-Judaism and Jesus, Jewishness and Jesus are not compatible
-Judaism and Muhammed, Jewishness and Muhammed are not compatible
-Jews have an enormous admiration and respect for all other religions and especially the major religions: Islam and Christianity
-Only Judaism is applicable to Jews
-A Christian mother can produce wonderful, beautiful, perfect kids in every respect except Jewish
-Only a Jewish mother can produce the Jewish kids.

[minusthejihad]

No...I am not. A non-religious Jew is as Jewish as the chief rabbi of Israel. It will probably surprise you but I am also a non-religious Jew. However, I have great respect for our Torah, sages, Judaism and of course Israel, the miracle of all times.

My points are clear:

-Judaism and Jesus, Jewishness and Jesus are not compatible
-Judaism and Muhammed, Jewishness and Muhammed are not compatible
-Jews have an enormous admiration and respect for all other religions and especially the major religions: Islam and Christianity
-Only Judaism is applicable to Jews
-A Christian mother can produce wonderful, beautiful, perfect kids in every respect except Jewish
-Only a Jewish mother can produce the Jewish kids.

Hey, I agree with you on all those points except the last two. And we are both free to hold differing opinions, after all we live in the USofA.

[Toga]

Hey, I agree with you on all those points except the last two. And we are both free to hold differing opinions, after all we live in the USofA.


What does the geography have to do with the Jewishness? An American Jew has the exactly the same Torah and the mitzvot as any other Jew, be that Brazil, Israel or Russia.

Again, I don't make laws. The rabbis don't make laws. The Torah is our constitution. The rabbis only interprete the laws of the Torah.

If you don't understand that a Christian mother even if the father is Jewish cannot possibly produce the Jewish kids then you have a huge problem with Jewishness, Torah, Jews and Judaism. Even if that kid is registered at the Reform temple that Jewishness will be very short-lived unless the child or an adult undergoes proper conversion.

[minusthejihad]

What does the geography have to do with the Jewishness? An American Jew has the exactly the same Torah and the mitzvot as any other Jew, be that Brazil, Israel or Russia.

Again, I don't make laws. The rabbis don't make laws. The Torah is our constitution. The rabbis only interprete the laws of the Torah.

If you don't understand that a Christian mother even if the father is Jewish cannot possibly produce the Jewish kids then you have a huge problem with Jewishness, Torah, Jews and Judaism. Even if that kid is registered at the Reform temple that Jewishness will be very short-lived unless the child or an adult undergoes proper conversion.

2 questions:

1. When you have time, please dig up the exact quote from the Torah that states your point. If you can't find it, I won't be surprised, but in that case, please dig up a famous Rabbi who has interpreted the Torah and prove to me that there have been no disagreements to his interpretation from Rabbis from other sects of Judaism.

2. About the kid: who would know? you? Who will stop me? Who will tell him that he is not a Jew that would actually matter? you? The Rabbinical Council of North American?

[Toga]

2 questions:

1. When you have time, please dig up the exact quote from the Torah that states your point. If you can't find it, I won't be surprised, but in that case, please dig up a famous Rabbi who has interpreted the Torah and prove to me that there have been no disagreements to his interpretation from Rabbis from other sects of Judaism.

2. About the kid: who would know? you? Who will stop me? Who will tell him that he is not a Jew that would actually matter? you? The Rabbinical Council of North American?

Look, I have no intention to make you angry or upset but it helps those who are on the wrong path. You have already made your decision. Some day you will understand it. What kind of a Jew can be raised in a household where the mother celebrates Xmas, Easter, etc. and not Yom Kippur. Would you deny your wife the privilege to celebrate her heritage? I am sure you are not that cruel. At the same time neither you, nor she knows anything about the Jewish heritage. Buying a box of matzos or admiring Israel/Zionism from Detroit will just not cut it.

As for the quote from the Torah, I have provided it to you already. It is on this forum. Please dig it out. I will try to look for it again.

[minusthejihad]

Look, I have no intention to make you angry or upset but it helps those who are on the wrong path. You have already made your decision. Some day you will understand it. What kind of a Jew can be raised in a household where the mother celebrates Xmas, Easter, etc. and not Yom Kippur. Would you deny your wife the privilege to celebrate her heritage? I am sure you are not that cruel. At the same time neither you, nor her knows anything about the Jewish heritage. Buying a box of matzos or admiring Israel/Zionism from Detroit will just not cut it.

Hehe! Why would some neurotic blowhard in an internet forum anger me? You can't faze me, you know ziltch about me.

As for the quote from the Torah, I have provided it to you already. It is on this forum. Please dig it out. I will try to look for it again.

Um. No, this is not at all in the Torah. Kettlewhistle already disproved that. You go look it up, I have no intention to.

[Toga]

Hehe! Why would some neurotic blowhard in an internet forum anger me? You can't faze me, you know ziltch about me.
Um. No, this is not at all in the Torah. Kettlewhistle already disproved that. You go look it up, I have no intention to.

LOL, if the meshugah Kettle who totally detests Judaism is your teacher and guide then G-d help you.

[Toga]

This is from Judaism101

http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm

Here: It addresses the issue of intermarriage:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Not_Intermarry$.asp

http://www.aish.com/shmooze/intermarriage_and_jewish_identity.asp

very interesting statistical data regarding the intermarriage:

http://www.targum.com/excerpts/marryjewish.html

------------

I hope you are satisfied!

[minusthejihad]

This is from Judaism101

http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm

Here: It addresses the issue of intermarriage:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Not_Intermarry$.asp

http://www.aish.com/shmooze/intermarriage_and_jewish_identity.asp

very interesting statistical data regarding the intermarriage:

http://www.targum.com/excerpts/marryjewish.html

------------

I hope you are satisfied!

No, I really don't give a damn, nor can you make me care. Next

[Ophra]

No, I really don't give a damn, nor can you make me care. Next

Ha ha ha .... way to go Minus.... just ignore the cold hard facts ...very Russian :D

[Toga]

No, I really don't give a damn, nor can you make me care. Next

ah...if you do not care about Judaism and the teachings of the torah now pretty soon you will not care about Zionism and Israel either.

Zionism for the people like you is like skiing or collecting the stamps. It fills in the vaccuum during a certain period of their lives. When they get tired of Israel they move on/get another hobby. However, for a religious Jew Israel, the land of Israel represents a lot more than just a hobby as Israel, the land of Israel, is featured in every Jewish prayer.

[Toga]

Ha ha ha .... way to go Minus.... just ignore the cold hard facts ...very Russian :D

Wrong! It is not Russian. Most Ashkenazi Jews in Israel and the USA come from Eastern Europe including Russia.

Minus is a very nice fella who thinks he is trapped. So, he finds salvation in rejecting the obvious and rejecting the facts. Pretty soon his wife may approach him with another type of salvation....

A non-religious Jew is the best Christian target! The missionaries don't do well with the religious Jews.

[minusthejihad]

You two deserve each other! Toga and Ophra, two sides of the same coin, both lavishing their attention on me! Thanks!

[Toga]

We care about Jews. Even the wayward Jews. It is one of the Mitzvot. Something that is totally alien to you.

You are probably too far gone. Hopefully, your mistakes can benefit some other Jews.

[minusthejihad]

We care about Jews. Even the wayward Jews. It is one of the Mitzvot. Something that is totally alien to you.

You are probably too far gone. Hopefully, your mistakes can benefit some other Jews.

Says the Jew posting on Shabbat. Man, you lay it on thicker than an evangelist, and to think our peeps don't proselytize. Shame Shame :)

[Toga]

Says the Jew posting on Shabbat. Man, you lay it on thicker than an evangelist, and to think our peeps don't proselytize. Shame Shame :)


No, we don't proselytize. You will never find a Jewish missionary trying to recruit a non-Jew anywhere in the world. It is something that Jews DO NOT DO as it is totally forbidden in Judaism.

Please mind my word and rest assured (as a non-religious Jew I really hate to tell this to you), sooner or later you will find yourself sitting in a church. You made your choice, you will have to live with it. Your ancestors must be tossing in their graves. They went through all kinds of the Eastern European atrocities but they kept their Jewishness. However, they produced you who will finish off your Jewish family tree. Congratulations!

[minusthejihad]

No, we don't proselytize. You will never find a Jewish missionary trying to recruit a non-Jew anywhere in the world. It is something that Jews DO NOT DO as it is totally forbidden in Judaism.

Please mind my word and rest assured (as a non-religious Jew I really hate to tell this to you), sooner or later you will find yourself sitting in a church. You made your choice, you will have to live with it. Your ancestors must be tossing in their graves. They went through all kinds of the Eastern European atrocities but they kept their Jewishness. However, they produced you who will finish off your Jewish family tree. Congratulations!

Whatever you say Lady Cleo!

[Toga]

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=539&o=213

Why marry a Jewish person, isn't love greater than all?
Yes it is, and that's why a Jew should not marry a non-Jew. Marriage is a process of becoming one. If you truly love another, you should allow them a situation where their soul can really become one with their partners. The Torah teaches that this can only happen between two Jewish souls. In fact, that soul has been waiting for you since you've been here.

[minusthejihad]

Ok Moses then.

[frizzer1]

Ok Moses then.

Minus you must understand that for a child to be jewish he/she must be born of a jewish mother or convert to judaism.
That doesn't make you a bad person.It doesn't mean that you don't love jews or israel.It doesn't mean that your wife is not a wonderful human being and after having known you on this forum I'm sure she is.
But while her children may have strong jewish identities and may live in israel and serve in the IDf and perform mitzvot every day,they are still not jewish according to jewish law.
I think you mentioned before that who would know? Well if they claim to be jews and marry and have children who then think they are jews..well...when someone finds out there will be a lot of suffering by a lot of people who are affected.
When someone points this out to you it is not a personal attack.It is simply telling you the way it is.

[minusthejihad]

Minus you must understand that for a child to be jewish he/she must be born of a jewish mother or convert to judaism.

I am well aware of that.

That doesn't make you a bad person.

Hey, thanks!

It doesn't mean that you don't love jews or israel.It doesn't mean that your wife is not a wonderful human being and after having known you on this forum I'm sure she is.
But while her children may have strong jewish identities and may live in israel and serve in the IDf and perform mitzvot every day,they are still not jewish according to jewish law.

Yes, I understand that.

I think you mentioned before that who would know?

Figuratively speaking of course. As in, do you get a Cert with that? Carry around a blood sample? Wear a patch? Meaning, for all we know, I could be a Hindu. Toga wouldn't know, this is a forum after all, and I am simply using an avatar. I'm getting the feeling you are about to go somewhere with this.

Well if they claim to be jews and marry and have children who then think they are jews..well...when someone finds out there will be a lot of suffering by a lot of people who are affected.

Wow. You went there. Good god man, I'm playing devil's advocate with an internet stalker who follows me around threads interjecting his anti-intermarriage platform of which I am well aware of. Keep this on the DL, but I'm trying to find creative ways to shake him here. As if I could pull that off! You are a funny man. Hey, I was born what I was and I've appreciated that circumstance for all time. If I had been born an Inuit, I'd still be just the same old playa I am now, and just as proud.

And talk about suffering, I'd hate for them to be featured in an Adam Sandler Chanukah song, so I get your drift.

When someone points this out to you it is not a personal attack.It is simply telling you the way it is.

Thanks. I'm personally way over with this subject, so if you don't mind, I'm going back to ignoring my internet stalker now. Shabbat Shalom

[Womble]

I understand why Jews are like this in other parts of the world, especially back in the FSU, but here in America, I'm the "In Your Face" type of Jew. I love wearing shirts with IDF logos I'm sent by my cousin from Israel, big Stars of David on my necklace and Tshirts and my favorite shirt: "Am Yisrael Chai!" written in Arabic.

I'd put a bumber sticker on my car, but I am against bumper stickers in general and I can't be around my car enough to make sure it doesn't get vandalized. However, if I caught the perps, even my bat has a Magen David beveled in it.
"In Your Face" is also a form of keeping your shield up. I used to be like that myself at some point in my life.

[Aviva]

I'd like to live in Israel one day but I've heard it can be hard to get work.

Just out of interest, are there any professions that are under-represented there? For example, we have a lack of dentists in the UK - so anyone who was a dentist would have lots of work opportunities here.

[Womble]

I'd like to live in Israel one day but I've heard it can be hard to get work.

Just out of interest, are there any professions that are under-represented there? For example, we have a lack of dentists in the UK - so anyone who was a dentist would have lots of work opportunities here.
Under-representeted? That's a tough one. There's certainly an overload of doctors, engineers, computer and biotech technicians.

You know what, if you're an honest politician, you'll have little competition here ;)

[Toga]

Funny, the last 4 generations of my family on both sides were completely secular, yet damned proud to be Jews and celebrated all the traditions. You can try to walls around my Jewishness all you like though.



And we're doing that. You are personally invited to the Bris.

Will you teach your kids the Jewish traditions at the dinner table eating ham or under the Xmas tree? As for circumcision most non-Jewish American men are/get circumcised.

You can shoot your smart derogatory remarks at me but it will not change the facts.

[minusthejihad]

Will you teach your kids the Jewish traditions at the dinner table eating ham or under the Xmas tree? As for circumcision most non-Jewish American men are/get circumcised.

You can shoot your smart derogatory remarks at me but it will not change the facts.

Finished.

[Toga]

I agree...since you are the last Jew in your lineage your Jewish family branch is finished.

[Mediocrates]

Ha ha ha .... way to go Minus.... just ignore the cold hard facts ...very Russian :D


You're hardly one to speak with authority on religious matters. I know third graders with a better understanding.

[Ophra]

You're hardly one to speak with authority on religious matters. I know third graders with a better understanding.
I never speak about religious matters full stop Medio. I'm an atheist ... it's about the most boring subject under the sun for me.
I'm sure your third graders could beat the socks off me .... that's not the point though is it ??
The point is.... Minus's kids , by Jewish Law , will never be Jewish ... whilst mine are. :D

[Toga]

The point is.... Minus's kids , by Jewish Law , will never be Jewish ... whilst mine are. :D

It is true! Nobody can dispute your point.

This is not about minus even though he thinks it is. Minus is just an example of an unfortunate trend. The Jewish reform movement tries to bring their offspings under its fold and provide them with an identity and a "home" but the results are questionable.

It is a good lesson for the non-religious Jews in diaspora. If a non-religious Jew wants his kids to be Jewish it is hard to make the Minus' type mistake in Israel but in diaspora it is easy to slip.

[Ophra]

It is true! Nobody can dispute your point.

This is not about minus even though he thinks it is. Minus is just an example of an unfortunate trend. The Jewish reform movement tries to bring their offspings under its fold and provide them with an identity and a "home" but the results are questionable.

It is a good lesson for the non-religious Jews in diaspora. If a non-religious Jew wants his kids to be Jewish it is hard to make the Minus' type mistake in Israel but in diaspora it is easy to slip.

I don't know how much you know or understand about us secular Israelis Toga .... know this though.... our kids have a Brit Mila and a Bar/Bat Mitzvah and our weddings are always performed by a Rabbi. We keep all of the major holidays ...... maybe not like the religious do ... but we keep them .
The history and traditions of our people is taught to our kids at an early age .... and study of the Tanauch is obligatory in our school system.
My children have never seen a Christmas tree and have no idea who Santa Clause is ....... apart from in American movies .

[Toga]

I don't know how much you know or understand about us secular Israelis Toga .... know this though.... our kids have a Brit Mila and a Bar/Bat Mitzvah and our weddings are always performed by a Rabbi. We keep all of the major holidays ...... maybe not like the religious do ... but we keep them .
The history and traditions of our people is taught to our kids at an early age .... and study of the Tanauch is obligatory in our school system.
My children have never seen a Christmas tree and have no idea who Santa Clause is ....... apart from in American movies .

I have been to Israel enough times to be aware of it. However, the Israeli Jews are not totally immune. According to some estimates there are already 5000 Christian missionaries running around the state and there is a Messianic congregation. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where the Christian population is increasing.

[Mira]

I don't approve of the way you guys are riding minus. He is set to be married very soon. He is going to marry this woman no matter what a bunch of anonymous internet Jews have to say, so all you are doing is alienating him on the board and putting bad feelings in his head. Marriage is a very serious thing. My older brother left his Arab girlfriend of five years who he got along with extremely well because her father wouldn't allow my brother in their home and he married a Jewish girl who he is bored to death with to please my parents. They talk about divorce all the time now. I dated one Jewish guy in school and he was more French than Jewish and extremely secular. I had a better reception talking about Judaism with my non-Jewish boyfriends than I did with him. And to be honest, all of the organized Jewish dating avenues suck unless you are willing to put the Jewish thing above everything else. I have a lot of different interests that narrowed the field to begin with, throwing in the ethnic and religious factor narrowed them even more to the point where if I didn't live in NY, I knew that I would have had to settle big time. I had to go to Israel where being Jewish is a secondary consideration for compatability to meet my fiance and not everyone is in the position to do something like that. So don't hate the playa, people. Hate the game.

[Ophra]

I don't approve of the way you guys are riding minus. He is set to be married very soon. He is going to marry this woman no matter what a bunch of anonymous internet Jews have to say, so all you are doing is alienating him on the board and putting bad feelings in his head. Marriage is a very serious thing. My older brother left his Arab girlfriend of five years who he got along with extremely well because her father wouldn't allow my brother in their home and he married a Jewish girl who he is bored to death with to please my parents. They talk about divorce all the time now. I dated one Jewish guy in school and he was more French than Jewish and extremely secular. I had a better reception talking about Judaism with my non-Jewish boyfriends than I did with him. And to be honest, all of the organized Jewish dating avenues suck unless you are willing to put the Jewish thing above everything else. I have a lot of different interests that narrowed the field to begin with, throwing in the ethnic and religious factor narrowed them even more to the point where if I didn't live in NY, I knew that I would have had to settle big time. I had to go to Israel where being Jewish is a secondary consideration for compatability to meet my fiance and not everyone is in the position to do something like that. So don't hate the playa, people. Hate the game.

O great ..... now we are being used as a long distance dating paradise for spoilt JAP's . :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You don't seriously expect us to feel sorry for America's assimilation problems ..... do you ??

You chose the easy option.... the nice safe well fed secure rich free from all wars option. I guess it comes at a price ...your price was a round ticket to the Promised Land until you caught yourself a fat cat Yordim. Minus's price is to be lost forever ....not that I think that it is much of a loss to anyone.

[Mediocrates]

Do you strangle cats for a living?

[Mediocrates]

An oh, if you're the poster girl for the Israeli Tourism Board.......Maybe the jawbone of an *ss (http://photos1.blogger.com/img/45/975/640/Donkey.jpg) isnt' working so well for you.

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by Mira
I don't approve of the way you guys are riding minus...


Mira, and Minusthejihad,

Mira, you are quite correct about the $hit treatment that minusthejihad is receiving here. Sharonbn is too busy playing Jack the Ripper on posts against his leftist friends to pay attention to the real $hit being thrown at Minusthejihad. Again, I wish him and his future wife and his family the very best in health, happiness, and prosperity. I wish you the same Mira.

You know what Ophra is. Just thank God that you can turn her off like you do the rotten T.V. news from your cushy diaspora homes. Oh, I'm sorry that I said that. But, I am SteveK.

And, SteveK does say what he sincerely means, and I do wish the very best for you Mira and for Minusthejihad. Of course, I would wish you even better than the best if you all moved yourselves and your families to Israel.

Just remember, that Ophra is what I must contend with not just on a virtual forum, but in the real life Israel forum, MY Country and HERS, The State of Israel.

I hope that it won't come down to HANNUKAH STORY II here in Israel to stop these Hellenizers. But, I have faith in God, and that His words will be realized,--- words which I recited for my Bar-Mitzvah Haftorah:

Zechariah 4:6

... Not by Power, Nor by Might, but by My Spirit said Hashem ....

[KSO]

I don't approve of the way you guys are riding minus. He is set to be married very soon. He is going to marry this woman no matter what a bunch of anonymous internet Jews have to say, so all you are doing is alienating him on the board and putting bad feelings in his head. Marriage is a very serious thing. My older brother left his Arab girlfriend of five years who he got along with extremely well because her father wouldn't allow my brother in their home and he married a Jewish girl who he is bored to death with to please my parents. They talk about divorce all the time now. I dated one Jewish guy in school and he was more French than Jewish and extremely secular. I had a better reception talking about Judaism with my non-Jewish boyfriends than I did with him. And to be honest, all of the organized Jewish dating avenues suck unless you are willing to put the Jewish thing above everything else. I have a lot of different interests that narrowed the field to begin with, throwing in the ethnic and religious factor narrowed them even more to the point where if I didn't live in NY, I knew that I would have had to settle big time. I had to go to Israel where being Jewish is a secondary consideration for compatability to meet my fiance and not everyone is in the position to do something like that. So don't hate the playa, people. Hate the game.

Very interesting, but I never knew this is such a factor in the states,
In Russia this was a non-factor as much as I know, most of the people I know in Russia are inter-married, or come from inter-married homes.

[Mira]

Stevek and Queen Bitch,

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for you people, but I have returned to the US temporarily with my fiance so that he can get an MBA from Stanford. I didn't want to pull myself out of school before completing my MA!!!! I had just started to feel adjusted to living in Israel. But you don't get these kinds of opportunities that often and in my fiance's line of work (high tech VC), an MBA and all that goes with it is worth more to him back in Israel than sitting at a desk in Herzliya trying to make connections with American business people on the telephone. If you can't understand this, then shame on you for all of your stubborness and short-sighted demagoguery. Some of you have nothing better to do than vent your frustrations on this board. Get laid, Ophra!

[Mira]

Very interesting, but I never knew this is such a factor in the states,
In Russia this was a non-factor as much as I know, most of the people I know in Russia are inter-married, or come from inter-married homes.

It's about 50% intermarried overall I think, some places higher. In the Bay Area, the intermarriage rate is so high that there are congregations and Jewish community organizations that gear much of their programming for intermarried couples.

[Toga]

I don't approve of the way you guys are riding minus. He is set to be married very soon. He is going to marry this woman no matter what a bunch of anonymous internet Jews have to say, so all you are doing is alienating him on the board and putting bad feelings in his head. Marriage is a very serious thing. My older brother left his Arab girlfriend of five years who he got along with extremely well because her father wouldn't allow my brother in their home and he married a Jewish girl who he is bored to death with to please my parents. They talk about divorce all the time now. I dated one Jewish guy in school and he was more French than Jewish and extremely secular. I had a better reception talking about Judaism with my non-Jewish boyfriends than I did with him. And to be honest, all of the organized Jewish dating avenues suck unless you are willing to put the Jewish thing above everything else. I have a lot of different interests that narrowed the field to begin with, throwing in the ethnic and religious factor narrowed them even more to the point where if I didn't live in NY, I knew that I would have had to settle big time. I had to go to Israel where being Jewish is a secondary consideration for compatability to meet my fiance and not everyone is in the position to do something like that. So don't hate the playa, people. Hate the game.


Your statement is as sick as it gets. Nobody is after minus. Again, minus/shminus deal is not the issue. It has nothing to do with him. He made his choice and he will have to live with it. We wish him well! I know of a Jewish man, the son of a rabbi, who is not only an atheist but also eats ham. We have all kinds of nutty Jews. The Minus' personal experiences or your personal experiences have no bearing on the Jewish law which states clearly that only a Jewish woman can produce the Jewish kids. So, if a Jewish man wants to have the Jewish kids, and a normal Jew would, he can only do it with a Jewish woman. That is what it is all about and it is not a game.

In most cases the religious Jews do not struggle with such issues, as they have a secure sense of identity. However, many non-religious Jews like us do. Zionism or love for Israel do not preclude us from that struggle while Judaism does.

[Mira]

In most cases the religious Jews do not struggle with such issues, as they have a secure sense of identity. However, many non-religious Jews like us do. Zionism or love for Israel do not preclude us from that struggle while Judaism does.

that's just not true.

[Toga]

O great ..... now we are being used as a long distance dating paradise for spoilt JAP's . :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You don't seriously expect us to feel sorry for America's assimilation problems ..... do you ??

You chose the easy option.... the nice safe well fed secure rich free from all wars option. I guess it comes at a price ...your price was a round ticket to the Promised Land until you caught yourself a fat cat Yordim. Minus's price is to be lost forever ....not that I think that it is much of a loss to anyone.


Agree! Israel has always been used in that regard but that is not a bad thing. It brings the Israeli Jews and Diaspora Jews together.

When a Jew marries a non-Jewish woman it is great loss for all of us.

[Toga]

that's just not true.

It is true.

The religious Jews struggle with many issues but not the issues concerning their Jewisness. They know who they are, who they have to marry and who their children are or will be.

[Toga]

Mira, and Minusthejihad,

Mira, you are quite correct about the $hit treatment that minusthejihad is receiving here. Sharonbn is too busy playing Jack the Ripper on posts against his leftist friends to pay attention to the real $hit being thrown at Minusthejihad. Again, I wish him and his future wife and his family the very best in health, happiness, and prosperity. I wish you the same Mira.

You know what Ophra is. Just thank God that you can turn her off like you do the rotten T.V. news from your cushy diaspora homes. Oh, I'm sorry that I said that. But, I am SteveK.

And, SteveK does say what he sincerely means, and I do wish the very best for you Mira and for Minusthejihad. Of course, I would wish you even better than the best if you all moved yourselves and your families to Israel.

Just remember, that Ophra is what I must contend with not just on a virtual forum, but in the real life Israel forum, MY Country and HERS, The State of Israel.

I hope that it won't come down to HANNUKAH STORY II here in Israel to stop these Hellenizers. But, I have faith in God, and that His words will be realized,--- words which I recited for my Bar-Mitzvah Haftorah:

Let's not confuse the issues here or get personal.

The fact is Opha's kids and Minus' kids will have very little in common. They would not even share the same ethnicity let alone religion and that is unfortunate.

We cannot accept the main Christian concept and remain Jewish. It is not possible.

[Toga]

Very interesting, but I never knew this is such a factor in the states,
In Russia this was a non-factor as much as I know, most of the people I know in Russia are inter-married, or come from inter-married homes.

Obviously, you don't know. The relatively recent high Russian Jewish intermarriage rate is a direct result of the Soviet atheism among the Russian Jews, poor Jewish education, ignorance and a decrease in anti-Semitic acts. The Russian anti-Semitism was segregating the Jews. In the absense of anti-Jewish policies the Russian Jews don't have the Jewish upbringing or the knowledge of the Jewish customs and traditions to maintain their Jewishness. In fact, the Russian Jews are targeted by the missionaries much more than other Jews.

Where do you think the centers of the Jewish learning were concentrated: Vilna, Pinks, Minks, Shminks. How many Jews in any of the Jewish neighborhoods across Eastern Europe were intermarried? Less than 1%.

[Mediocrates]

It is true.

The religious Jews struggle with many issues but not the issues concerning their Jewisness. They know who they are, who they have to marry and who their children are or will be.


That's probably true but as long as everyone is tossing facts around please be aware that the 'outlanding' of even the Orthodox community is quite high. In other words, perhaps as many as 30% of Orthodox chose to leave the MO or Frum life at some point whether it's a permanent decision or only a phase of life. But the Frum community makes up for it by having 9 kids each.

[KSO]

Obviously, you don't know. The relatively recent high Russian Jewish intermarriage rate is a direct result of the Soviet atheism among the Russian Jews, poor Jewish education, ignorance and a decrease in anti-Semitic acts. The Russian anti-Semitism was segregating the Jews. In the absense of anti-Jewish policies the Russian Jews don't have the Jewish upbringing or the knowledge of the Jewish customs and traditions to maintain their Jewishness. In fact, the Russian Jews are targeted by the missionaries much more than other Jews.

Where do you think the centers of the Jewish learning were concentrated: Vilna, Pinks, Minks, Shminks. How many Jews in any of the Jewish neighborhoods across Eastern Europe were intermarried? Less than 1%.

I am not talking only about Jews, everybody intermerry in Moscow and nationality and religion is almost a no-issue at least with most people I know, Plus i think it's a good thing.

[Mira]

That's probably true but as long as everyone is tossing facts around please be aware that the 'outlanding' of even the Orthodox community is quite high. In other words, perhaps as many as 30% of Orthodox chose to leave the MO or Frum life at some point whether it's a permanent decision or only a phase of life. But the Frum community makes up for it by having 9 kids each.

You can count me as one of your statistics.

And toga, stop romanticizing. Jewish identity is a very complex subject and the various circumstances we are all in require serious discussion, not old-school rhetoric.

[Mira]

Where do you think the centers of the Jewish learning were concentrated: Vilna, Pinks, Minks, Shminks. How many Jews in any of the Jewish neighborhoods across Eastern Europe were intermarried? Less than 1%.

Why would a non-Jew marry a Jew back then if the Jew didn't already plan on converting? It wasn't a mixed marriage that was created in those days. It was a way for the Jew to move up and out.

[Toga]

I am not talking only about Jews, everybody intermerry in Moscow and nationality and religion is almost a no-issue at least with most people I know, Plus i think it's a good thing.

Do you think it is a good thing that the Russian Jews were robbed of their heritage, traditions, customs and religion by the Russian Soviet dictatorship, anti-Semitism and nationalism?

[Toga]

You can count me as one of your statistics.

And toga, stop romanticizing. Jewish identity is a very complex subject and the various circumstances we are all in require serious discussion, not old-school rhetoric.


The reason we are Jews in the first place is because of the old school and what does the new school offer us? Is it hell we would be going to unless we accept what they want us to accept?

[Mediocrates]

So is there any practical advise on moving to Israel? Don't you folks have any committment to aliyah? You should be helping not criticizing. If anyone wanted to move to North Carolina a.k.a. Geek-Nerdistan I'm sure I would help them or at least inform them.

[Mira]

So is there any practical advise on moving to Israel? Don't you folks have any committment to aliyah? You should be helping not criticizing. If anyone wanted to move to North Carolina a.k.a. Geek-Nerdistan I'm sure I would help them or at least inform them.
I already said that I think she should spend some time in Haifa, maybe in graduate school, which is one of the best ways to get acclimated to any new environment. I think that if she graduates with an advanced degree in psychology and with her language skills, she will not have a problem finding employment and can probably do quite well for herself. She might also be able to put her training to use for national reserve service dealing with bereaved families. Can someone confirm this???? I don't see someone like Ahava (from what I know of her) having any problems adjusting to life in Israel and she seems like the type who will be both enriched from the experience and will enrich the country with her contribution. It's the older folks who I can see having problems, and mostly in terms of seperation from friends, family, and bureaucratic differences. The more you live, you get used to doing things in a certain way. I moved to Israel to go to school, so I left without ever having gone through the administrative ordeals in the US of buying a house, getting a professional license, opening a business, etc...To go through those processes once in your native language is hard enough, but trying to then navigate through all the administration of another system all over again just takes a lot of determination. So I imagine it's much more difficult if you are older.

[Toga]

I am not talking only about Jews, everybody intermerry in Moscow and nationality and religion is almost a no-issue at least with most people I know, Plus i think it's a good thing.

That is where the roots of the Russian/Eastern European Jews are who today live in Israel, Americas or Moscows. Some Jews kept the traditions while the others discarded them:
--------------------
Sep. 18, 2005 21:35
Jew donates $1m to visit Rabbi Nahman's grave
By MATTHEW WAGNER

A Jew named Meir Singer donated $1 million to subsidize 2,000 plane tickets to Uman, Ukraine for people who have never visited the gravesite of Rabbi Nahman of Breslav.

According to travel agents at Or Haderech, an agency arranging charter flights on Ukraine Airways for Rosh Hashanah, Singer will pay $500 of a $679 plane ticket.

"We've already received thousands of calls," said Haim, a travel agent who spoke with The Jerusalem Post. "I do not know what the chances are of actually receiving the subsidy."

Those interested in applying for the $500 grant must leave their name and ID number. If lucky they will be chosen.

Flights leave on Thursday, Saturday night and Sunday.

[KSO]

That is where the roots of the Russian/Eastern European Jews are who today live in Israel, Americas or Moscows. Some Jews kept the traditions while the others discarded them:
--------------------
Sep. 18, 2005 21:35
Jew donates $1m to visit Rabbi Nahman's grave
By MATTHEW WAGNER


which is every individual's personal decision...

[KettleWhistle]

Very interesting, but I never knew this is such a factor in the states,
In Russia this was a non-factor as much as I know, most of the people I know in Russia are inter-married, or come from inter-married homes.

In Russia religion is a non-factor, as most Jews don't care about it, but intermarriage is frowned upon. It depends on a person, but most intermarried couples would be treated like goym by Jews, even by their friends.

[KSO]

In Russia religion is a non-factor, as most Jews don't care about it, but intermarriage is frowned upon. It depends on a person, but most intermarried couples would be treated like goym by Jews, even by their friends.

I never seen any jew in Russia treated intermarried couples differently, but I know a bunch of jewish couples who converted together to christianity...

[KettleWhistle]

To most Russian-speaking Jews that I know it's about ethnicity, not religion. Christianity is treated same way as Judiaism--they don't want either one. But intermarried couples rarely act like Jews, and so they are rarely treated like Jews.

[Toga]

I never seen any jew in Russia treated intermarried couples differently, but I know a bunch of jewish couples who converted together to christianity...


where do you find those?

Now, were they religious? I bet not and they probably knew nothing about their Jewish heritage, traditions and religion and, therefore, were targeted by the missionaries. My college buddy asked me to come to a party at his church. I did not give it a second thought until I was there and all his friends were telling me about Jesus and the rest of the stuff. I did not even suspect that he was a missionary. If I had had a reasonable Jewish education and upbringing I would have known that a Jew cannot step into a church but I had not and that is how it starts.

[KSO]

where do you find those? who breeds them?

Around Moscow, usually theyre parents (unless some major biological changes happened in a specific group of people)

[KSO]

where do you find those?

Now, were they religious? I bet not and they probably knew nothing about their Jewish heritage, traditions and religion and, therefore, were targeted by the missionaries. My college buddy asked me to come to a party at his church. I did not give it a second thought until I was there and all his friends were telling me about Jesus and the rest of the stuff. I did not even suspect that he was a missionary. If I had had a reasonable Jewish education and upbringing I would have known that a Jew cannot step into a church but I had not and that is how it starts.
I doubt they were religious but all of them highly intelligent people and i doubt they made any decisions without thinking about it, eventually it is a personal choise.

[Toga]

Intelligent people do not always make intelligent decisions. Also, proficiency in physics or mathematics do not guarantee success in life. Hate to sound repetitive but only ignorance and lack of the Jewish upgringing would propel a normal, intelligent Jew aware of his Jewish traditions to turn into a Hare Krishna or anything else.

I can guarantee you that your Jewish friends from Russia did not have a Jewish background. In fact, I would venture to say that even their parents had not had a Jewish background and had been totally assimilated and perhaps even intermarried. Communist Russia committed horrendous crimes against the Jews as it tried to wipe out all Yiddishkeit on its soil.

Yes, people make choices: some intelligent and some based on ignorance. In this case it is pure ignorance.

When the missionaries bring up the stories in the bible to prove something ask them if they read it in Hebrew. They will tell you they did not and if they did not it means they read the translation which is not the real thing but an interpreted version. Therefore, they did not read the bible and can prove nothing.

[SteveK]

Stevek and Queen Bitch,

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for you people, but I have returned to the US temporarily with my fiance so that he can get an MBA from Stanford. I didn't want to pull myself out of school before completing my MA!!!! I had just started to feel adjusted to living in Israel. But you don't get these kinds of opportunities that often and in my fiance's line of work (high tech VC), an MBA and all that goes with it is worth more to him back in Israel than sitting at a desk in Herzliya trying to make connections with American business people on the telephone. If you can't understand this, then shame on you for all of your stubborness and short-sighted demagoguery. Some of you have nothing better to do than vent your frustrations on this board. Get laid, Ophra!

Hi Mira,

All I want to say is that again, I wish you the best.

And, thank you very much for using my correct name.

[KSO]

Intelligent people do not always make intelligent decisions. Also, proficiency in physics or mathematics do not guarantee success in life. Hate to sound repetitive but only ignorance and lack of the Jewish upgringing would propel a normal, intelligent Jew aware of his Jewish traditions to turn into a Hare Krishna or anything else.

I can guarantee you that your Jewish friends from Russia did not have a Jewish background. In fact, I would venture to say that even their parents had not had a Jewish background and had been totally assimilated and perhaps even intermarried. Communist Russia committed horrendous crimes against the Jews as it tried to wipe out all Yiddishkeit on its soil.

Yes, people make choices: some intelligent and some based on ignorance. In this case it is pure ignorance.

When the missionaries bring up the stories in the bible to prove something ask them if they read it in Hebrew. They will tell you they did not and if they did not it means they read the translation which is not the real thing but an interpreted version. Therefore, they did not read the bible and can prove nothing.

This is not a decision based on logic like any faith decision, It's more a question of how do you see the world, I am not religious in any way but I also had this period of thinking whitch system of values is the closest to mine and I still think that this is the Russian Orthodox Church (to which I was baptised when 3 but wasn't raised by it)

[Toga]

This is not a decision based on logic like any faith decision, It's more a question of how do you see the world, I am not religious in any way but I also had this period of thinking whitch system of values is the closest to mine and I still think that this is the Russian Orthodox Church (to which I was baptised when 3 but wasn't raised by it)


ahh...the truth is coming out...no wonder...sooner or later they always reveal themselves but they don't start out with the truth. They debate it and want to prove something to the Jews whose beliefs they have attached themselves to. Even the Jewish state is not totally immune from them.

The Russian Orthodox church was instrumental in creating an environment under which the Jews of Russia were subjected to the ghastly atrocities before the Russian communists came to power and after the revolution of 1917. Anti-semitism has always been woven into the fabric of the Russian culture. The only consolation is that the policies of the Russian nationalists and Soviet communists drove the Jews out to the USA and Israel where they advanced and prospered.

The Jew is presented with a challenge at every corner: the Arab terrorists who want to destroy the Jewish state and drive the Jews out of their land, the Christian missionaries who claim that we are destined for hell unless we accept the premise of their faith, the Russian Orthodox Christians who after settling in Israel demanded the recognition of the Russian Orthodox autonomy in the Jewish state, etc. erc.

It does not end! Makes the Jewish life very interesting and exciting...even when it is a little too much.

PS. Nu teper vsyo yasno...u tebia papa russki?

[minusthejihad]

ahh...the truth is coming out...no wonder...sooner or later they always reveal themselves but they don't start out with the truth. They debate it and want to prove something to the Jews whose beliefs they have attached themselves to. Even the Jewish state is not totally immune from them.

The Russian Orthodox church was instrumental in creating an environment under which the Jews of Russia were subjected to the ghastly atrocities before the Russian communists came to power and after the revolution of 1917. Anti-semitism has always been woven into the fabric of the Russian culture. The only consolation is that the policies of the Russian nationalists and Soviet communists drove the Jews out to the USA and Israel where they advanced and prospered.

The Jew is presented with a challenge at every corner: the Arab terrorists who want to destroy the Jewish state and drive the Jews out of their land, the Christian missionaries who claim that we are destined for hell unless we accept the premise of their faith, the Russian Orthodox Christians who after settling in Israel demanded the recognition of the Russian Orthodox autonomy in the Jewish state, etc. erc.

It does not end! Makes the Jewish life very interesting and exciting...even when it is a little too much.

PS. Nu teper vsyo yasno...u tebia papa russki?

Ah ti agromnye kazol. Tvai raditsili ukraintsi?

[Toga]

Ah ti agromnye kazol. Tvai raditsili ukraintsi?

Nope, my folks are not Ukranian.

In fact, we have the knowledge of our roots all the way down to the 11th century and are very proud of it.

PS. Why did you call me a goat? Goats can be very beneficial. Don't you know a better insult?

[KSO]

PS. Nu teper vsyo yasno...u tebia papa russki?
net Evrey!

[Toga]

net Evrey!

a mama?

[Toga]

net Evrey!

Actually, you don't need to answer my last question because I know the answer.

No normal, mentally stable or even the most Russified Jewish woman in the Soviet Union, a country that deprived its citizens of any religion, including Christianity and Islam let alone Judaism, would have ever baptized her son. On the other hand, if she had not been Jewish she could have baptized her offspring for either the religious reasons or to spite the communist system.

The examples you presented have no revelance to Jews whatsoever and in fact smack of treachery. It is unfortunate that an Israeli citizen who happens to be non-Jewish has to resort to it.