Tackling the Jews against Zion/Israel

[Pushtak21]

I think we as Jews and as the majority, regardless if your from Israel, Canada, U.S, Argentina, England, Australia, France, Italy, Iran, and Beyond should tackle and expose Religous jews who are against Zionism.

Somehow, we as a community, whether were 5 people, 50,000 people or 500,000 people in that city or community, it seems that we have a fear seeing these uneducated (in my opinion) religous jews. Hardcore prayers who seem to think that Israel is wrong and bad and usually sympathizing with the arab and muslim, calling them brothers (eventhough they wouldnt hesitated to force them by knife to convert) and calling us, the secular jews "not authentic jews".

Clearly, i think we should expose these groups of people who enjoy flag burning and refusing one nationalism, but accepting another fringe nationalism.

These people need to stop, the neutrei karta and the rest who think there should have been a solution in avoiding the holocaust. Afterall, if Hitler doesnt like jews...we should have all listened to Hitler and moved to spain or madagasgar and yes....prayed all day long....

:) so wherever you are... especially in the hardcore of Brooklyn/Queens where these knut cases are..i would like to get some info on how they treat outside jews and even other groups? Do they get into fights?

[zionistguy]

The knut cases are unfortunately not all in Brooklyn. In Vienna, there is a fellow called Rabbi (not clear that he was ordained by anyone except himself) Moishe Aryeh Friedman who is at least as bad as any Satmar or Netureh Karteh, maybe worse. Recently, it was revealed that this guy had formed an alliance with a neo-Nazi holocaust denying party.
See True Torah Nazis - Orthodox Anti-Zionists show their colors (http://www.zionism-israel.com/True_Torah_Nazis.htm)

To me, this is working proof that as crazy as it sounds, there are Jewish anti-Semites and even Jewish Nazis.

There is really not much you can do about such people, because it is a sort of collective psychosis - not amenable to logic or reason. All you can do is point out that they are a tiny minority and don't represent anyone. Unfortunately, because they are a novelty, Jews who look so "Jewish" demonstrating with PLO flags are an eye-catching novelty for cameras, and the search engines, thanks to faulty algorithms and irresponsibility, have given their Web sites top billing as well.

Zionistguy
Zionism and Israel Information Center (http://www.zionism-israel.com/)

[qistina255]

well, i dunno...
u can't have a perfect country..especially when there's jerusalem :confused:
whatever the cause...why are they so anti-zionist????
and why are u proud to be a zionist?
it's just a direct question,no bad meaning,

[savvy]

I think we as Jews and as the majority, regardless if your from Israel, Canada, U.S, Argentina, England, Australia, France, Italy, Iran, and Beyond should tackle and expose Religous jews who are against Zionism.

Most religious jews, I have come across are actually zionists. It's the extreme left and non-religious ones that tend to move away from zionism. In, fact zionists; be they jew or christian are generally seen as religious fanatics.

[MGB8]

Zionism is a combination of two ideas:

1. That Jews cannot rely on others for their protection, and thus require a state of their own; and

2. That Jews have a historical, religious, moral and legal right to have that state of their own in Zion.

Neither premise can really be honestly argued with. The history of Jews have shown that Jews are persecuted and not protected when they are under the rule of others - from being Dhimmis in the Muslim world to the many many problems in the Christian world. This is not an indictment of faith, it is a reflection on reality, and on what tends to happen to a small, but generally relatively afluent group that will not fully assimilate - even when they almost do, by being Jewish, even by having Jewish blood, they are still "the other." It goes on still today. Europe every day proves the need for a Jewish state.

As for #2, you have undisputed history (at least not seriously disputed) that validates the basis of the claim. Then you have the purchase of land from Turks and Arabs, the Balfour declaration, and resolution 181 (legal basis.) Partition Israel did not require anyone's expulsion nor did it impinge on anyones rights. Everyone there would have had the right to vote and be represented, and no one would have lost land that they had title to - had the Arabs accepted the partition and not gone to war.

The war resulted in Arab losses of land and refugees (both Jewish and Arab.) These losses were not unjust - historically, a penalty for an aggressor starting a war is the risk that they will lose land, and that populations will get shifted about. Nor was a Palestine created (other than Jordan decades before). No one makes a big deal about the Jewish refugees. The Arab refugees are kept in that status in an attempt to overturn R 181 and destroy Israel.

In short, to be an anti-Zionist, you generally have to believe that it was wrong for the UN to grant a small area which was majority Jewish and mostly Jewish owned land or crown lands to be sovereign to the majority Jews there - because the Arabs claimed that all of the ME belonged to them, and could not relinquish claim to 0.1% of it. Generally, considering that this standard only seems to be applied to the Jewish state, anti-Zionism is the same thing as Anti-Semitism.

[amiracle]

This is a very interesting and important topic, and I especially like MGB8's response just above me. But I think that more than the religious anti-Zionist Jews, we need to beware the anti-Zionist Jews who occupy positions of influence in academic and diplomatic circles.
The individual that disturbs me most is Noam Chomsky of MIT. He is an exponent of a particularly vicious form of anti-Zionism packaged as factual history. In fact, it is pseudohistory at best, and Antisemitic when you get right down it. The distance between his breed and those who deny the Holocaust is small indeed.

[KettleWhistle]

There always will be traitors and haters, and there is only one way to "tackle" them. They need to be ostrasized from the global Jewish community. And that's really something that various Jewish organizations, like the JNF, World Jewish Congress, World Zionist Congress, various American and Canadian Jewish organizations, ADL, Wiesental Center, and others, need to put on their agendas.

[KettleWhistle]

Zionism is a combination of two ideas:

1. That Jews cannot rely on others for their protection, and thus require a state of their own; and

2. That Jews have a historical, religious, moral and legal right to have that state of their own in Zion.

I absolutely disagree with that. It is true that Zionism arose from these ideas, but that's not what it is. Zionism is a movement that calls and fights for equality for the Jewish nation among other nations. It is not about protection, morality, or legality, but only about equality.

[MGB8]

You have to then distinguish between "modern Zionism" and "historical Zionism" - ie. the movement for the preservation of Israel (modern) versus creation (historical). Nevertheless, the principles of preservation are rooted in the principles which led to the creation. The question they will ask is WHY does Israel deserve to be treated equally - you can answer, like medio does, "because it exists," but that won't be satisfactory to most. As insulting as it is to justify the existence of Israel, when its legitimacy is constantly under attack, it must be done. "Because it exists" is not enough.

You cannot have preservation unless you deal with the issues of creation.

[KettleWhistle]

The question they will ask is WHY does Israel deserve to be treated equally

I think that really states all that needs to be said about the attitudes of some people towards Israel. I would say that equality needs no justification.

[MGB8]

KW,

I am not just talking about hard core leftist. I am talking about JEWS for example, who have not had a good background in the history.

If they have been sold the line that Israel's very creation was illegitimate, then it is very easy to justify unequal treatment of Israel, because it is "a state born in sin," and this mistake must be corrected.

First, that impression that Israel was born in sin must be destroyed. Once that is destroyed, then, you are right, equal treatment is self-evident.

[KettleWhistle]

If they have been sold the line that Israel's very creation was illegitimate, then it is very easy to justify unequal treatment of Israel, because it is "a state born in sin," and this mistake must be corrected.
I just don't consider the argument that Israel was needed to protect us from persecution to be appropriate here. And it does not, in any way, make it legitimate, save for some sentimental reasons. What IMO does need to be said, is that Zionism is a movement for equality, and if someone is against it, then s/he is against equlity and is supportive of injustice and bigotry. For me, it all boils down to just that.

[nuttie]

Kettlewhistle and MGB8,

I think there is no contradiction between you. As beautifully synthesized by Thomas Jefferson in another famous context, applicable (IMO) universally:

"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

With the major difference that the Zionists have not "altered or abolished" anything but merely stepped aside to form their own new independent government to secure the rights which - since equal to all mankind - are unalienable.