Stop The United Church Of Christ's Anti-israel Resolutions

[Mediocrates]

On July 1, 2005, the United Church of Christ (UCC), founded in 1957 as the union of several Christian traditions, convenes its General Synod, in Atlanta, Georgia. On the agenda are resolutions calling for the dismantling of Israel’s security barrier, and divestment from companies doing business with Israel.

This comes at a time when Israel is removing all Jewish settlements from Gaza, when she has released 900-plus Palestinians held for abetting terrorism, and as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet face-to-face in pursuit of an equitable peace.

The WiesenthalCenter has directly urged the head of the UCC to defeat these unfair and dangerous initiatives. We have also asked United States Congressmen who are members of the UCC to raise their voices against these resolutions. And, finally, we have asked that we be allowed to address the conclave directly to ensure that the voice of the victims of Palestinian terrorism are heard. To date, the Church has been silent to our pleas.

We need your help today



Please join our protest to UCC head Rev. John H. Thomas and other leaders of the (http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/ka/ct/contactus.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=849759&en=mmITL6OXKpLWLcMXLaLQIdPYJpI2J9PWIlLXL9O0JwKfH)



By acting now, you will be among the first 25,000 protests that we must generate in the few days before the General Synod convenes this Friday!

Recently, when another Protestant denomination considered similar resolutions against Israel, Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, had this to say, "Israelis are already traumatised and feel that the world is against them. This proposal, if it is agreed, would be another knife in the back. Christians who owe so much to the Hebrew Scriptures and to Israel itself should not be among those who attack Israel in such a way."

Since the Holocaust, Jews have appreciated the attempts of many church groups including the UCC to promote cooperation and good will. But the passing of resolutions so arrogantly oblivious to the safety and future of Israel's civilian population will result in inestimable damage to the relationship between our communities.



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[Semsem]

Thanks. I signed. It's absalutely disgusting. The Christian Churches have been persecuting, burning, killing, bashing Jews for 2,000 years. It will never stop.

[savvy]

I signed too. These Christians might as well start praying to Allah 5 times a day. :mad: However, I believe this time the real Christians r being separated from the false ones. We'll soon enough know who the pseudo- churches are and let the Muslims do away with Christendom's harlots. Sorry, if this is harsh, but I am mad.

[Rivka]

Signed. Oy I am sorry but I think quite a few so called Christians are forgetting where their faith comes from... as well as running away from there own.

[water]

it has been knew that the UCofC has nothing to do with the jesus in the bible
they have only hijacked the name of christain and jesus to use as a cover for there evil deeds
this go beyond evil deeds
this world is one scarey place i done know how to stop the tide of evil
unti jewishness is everywhere and is geting worse
i dont feel i have any power to stop it
yes i pray
i turn the station when the lies are being spead and my family beleives that Israel has more then the right to be where she is
and that we think as a nation she is the must fare and just nation in the world
we are just a small group
and we seem so weak

[atricnorth]

eh, i came from a christian background but from malaysia, an antisemitic country.

got bullied by muslims there, even wanted to convert me during one time, even show me a book about a catholic who became a muslim in the end.

the way they treated me in the past, man, show them no mercy.

i remember their faces, extremist for sure.
can see the look on their faces, reminds me of iraqi terrorists.
take them down piece by piece.

do what ever is neccessary to hunt them down , treat them like dogs.
muslims in this world would want israel swept to the sea, christians annihilated and raped women and make their children terrorists.

[RoofRabbit]

Thanks. I signed. It's absalutely disgusting. The Christian Churches have been persecuting, burning, killing, bashing Jews for 2,000 years. It will never stop.

Not true christian churches. There are many false religions out there to deceive as many as possible. Any so called Christian Church that opposes Israel opposes God as well. It's that simple.

[Mediocrates]

Lutheran churches criticize the fence:

http://standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=414


But then it blows up in their own faces

http://standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=417

[Tiberias]

Not true christian churches. There are many false religions out there to deceive as many as possible. Any so called Christian Church that opposes Israel opposes God as well. It's that simple.

That's true. There are many out there that call themselves "Christians" that aren't. Many are blinded and are wolves in sheeps clothing.

[Ossian]

Surely no Christian church should either support or oppose a nation state. Jesus advised his followers to be "no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

[water]

Surely no Christian church should either support or oppose a nation state. Jesus advised his followers to be "no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

jesus did not repect the roman empire
if you thing jesus would not be on the side of his country men please reread what you have been reading
it has been all about keeping his family alive he did bring them back to the LAND
no one would stand up for them but He did and brought them HOME

[Ossian]

Au contraire

According to the bible, He asked that his followers respect governmental authority, as long as it did not compromise biblical teachings. According to the bible, when asked if his followers should pay the tax ordered by Rome, He asked, Who's image is on that Roman coin? "Ceasars" they replied. He asked his followers to; "Pay to Ceasar what is Ceasars, and pay what is God's to God."

:D

[ShimonG]

This sort of lends credence to my theory that christianity is inherently anti-semitic. And that the anti-semitism arises from the forced incorporation of Judaism into Christianity via the theft of the old testament, the ten commandments etc. The very existence of the Jews is a stark reminder to the Christian that much of his own religion is borrowed. Unless the Jews are destroyed, the Christians cannot truly legitimize this theft.

[Ossian]

What lends credence to your theory?

I think in its true essence Christianity can be seen as being anti - jewish as a religion, as it would be anti other 'false' (so called!) religions, but not anti- jewish as an ethnicity.

[Alban]

Interesting.

Why should people stop others from speaking no matter how much they disagree with the opposition of the other side?

If you view the opposition to be totally wrong then logically wouldn't you let them make their own presence be made for the world to see how wrong they are?

Why all the silencing and protesting?

[minusthejihad]

Dude, can you stick to one subject. You just got here. No need to make people chase you around a hundred threads. Unless you're not here for debate of course..

[Alban]

Dude, can you stick to one subject. You just got here. No need to make people chase you around a hundred threads. Unless you're not here for debate of course..


I am here for conversation and debate. Just civil conversation.

I save all the threads I go to. I will answer all threads that I have posted.

How am I wrong here?

If I am unfair merely tell me how I am being unfair.

[Gunther]

This sort of lends credence to my theory that christianity is inherently anti-semitic. And that the anti-semitism arises from the forced incorporation of Judaism into Christianity via the theft of the old testament, the ten commandments etc. The very existence of the Jews is a stark reminder to the Christian that much of his own religion is borrowed. Unless the Jews are destroyed, the Christians cannot truly legitimize this theft.
I have heard the jealosy borrowed aurgumanent before. But if you think that Christians feel somehow unsecure because of your existence, then you are sadly mistaken.

Not true christian churches. There are many false religions out there to deceive as many as possible. Any so called Christian Church that opposes Israel opposes God as well. It's that simple.

:confused: Wow, then I guess that means most people listed the world sensus are not really Christian since most are Catholics, and the Catholic Church apposed Israels invasion of Lebenon. Protastants are split on the issue, and I am unaware of the position of Eastern Orthodox Churches.

People like you are infact the biggist threat to Christianity, Christians who would carve us up on petty political and nationalist issues.

[Gunther]

By the way I hope you know the UCC is fairly errelavent since they have been to watered down and have accused the Bible of being prejudice and they support gay mariage, they have very little influence over more conservative christians.

[Christian_Iran]

Catholics are not christians they are idol worshippers. They digged up saints bones and worshipped them. The bible is clear on not having idols, and the old testament where Moses punished the people that made a calv statue.

Catholics have statues and they belive that the church can excommunicate people from heaven like if they where god.

There are christians and then there are hindus and catholics.

[Gunther]

Catholics are not christians they are idol worshippers. They digged up saints bones and worshipped them. The bible is clear on not having idols, and the old testament where Moses punished the people that made a calv statue.

Catholics have statues and they belive that the church can excommunicate people from heaven like if they where god.

There are christians and then there are hindus and catholics.

What are you? Your name says Christian Iran, if you are a Christian from Iran then I would assume you are Orthodox. However you are from sweden. Exactly what are you?

[Kenneth]

Catholics are not christians they are idol worshippers. They digged up saints bones and worshipped them. The bible is clear on not having idols, and the old testament where Moses punished the people that made a calv statue.

Catholics have statues and they belive that the church can excommunicate people from heaven like if they where god.

There are christians and then there are hindus and catholics.

Catholics don't worship statues or bones. Are you sure you're a Christian? those are some seriously non-christian sentiments your displaying.

[Christian_Iran]

I am armenian christian, the oldest church in the world. It gots the most accurate scriptures.

Catholics worshipp god yes, but thrue statues. Just like the jews did before Moses came down from the mountain. It dosent matther, statues are forbidden. The reason they do it is cause...
1: They started as Romans
2: No moses to tell them its idol worshipping and forcing them to destroy it and drink it.

[Kenneth]

I am armenian christian, the oldest church in the world. It gots the most accurate scriptures.


Congrats, you must be very proud.


Catholics worshipp god yes, but thrue statues. Just like the jews did before Moses came down from the mountain. It dosent matther, statues are forbidden. The reason they do it is cause...
1: They started as Romans
2: No moses to tell them its idol worshipping and forcing them to destroy it and drink it.


Quickly, go to your photo album, ripe up all photos of your loved ones and friends, any feelings of love felt by you whilst as a result of the focus these photos create are not real and confuse your true feelings towards those whom you love.

[Christian_Iran]

... Location France...:rolleyes: Let me guess, you smoke and youre catholic?

You can not compare family fotos with something representing a deity.

[Kenneth]

... Location France...:rolleyes:

Location Sweden, let me guess, that means you may not be Swedish.

... you smoke and youre catholic?


Hit and a miss.


You can not compare family fotos with something representing a deity.

Why not? the components are all there, feelings, and devotion, point of focus for feelings, and devotion.

[Christian_Iran]

Here you go pedo priest.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/idols.htm

[Kenneth]

Here you go pedo priest.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/idols.htm

You're sure your a Christian? I start reaching round and checking labels because you sure as hell don't act like one.

[Christian_Iran]

You're sure your a Christian? I start reaching round and checking labels because you sure as hell don't act like one.

I worshipp only god, and i belive that Jesus died for our sins. I follow the bible only.

Then we got catholics like you, that wait for the popes speech to know what god wants you to do. And hope that the lord and saviour benedict XII will grant you acces to heaven instead of excommunition.

Why dont you do like the catholics before you and dig up saints bodies and worshipp them?

[Kenneth]

I worshipp only god, and i belive that Jesus died for our sins. I follow the bible only.

Then we got catholics like you, that wait for the popes speech to know what god wants you to do. And hope that the lord and saviour benedict XII will grant you acces to heaven instead of excommunition.

Why dont you do like the catholics before you and dig up saints bodies and worshipp them?

I worship no one and don't believe Jesus did anything for anyones sins. Because my location reads France you assume I am French and a Catholic, nice work Sherlock, it speaks volumes about your ability to think rationally, why don't you waddle off and show the heretics that the accuracy of your scripture is in proportion to your own inability to simple reason.

[Christian_Iran]

Youre still french so i can still hate you.

[Kenneth]

If that's what Jesus would do then hey, why not.

[Mediocrates]

I sometimes wonder about the thought processes inside big wealthy popular top down organizations that single out one tiny group unrelated to them and their operations to make a huge noise about what a threat they are.

[Gunther]

Then we got catholics like you, that wait for the popes speech to know what god wants you to do. And hope that the lord and saviour benedict XII will grant you acces to heaven instead of excommunition.

Why dont you do like the catholics before you and dig up saints bodies and worshipp them?
Just to let you know most catholics don't really think the pope can send them to hell, I certainly don't. By the way I have never worshiped bones.

[Christian_Iran]

Then we got catholics like you, that wait for the popes speech to know what god wants you to do. And hope that the lord and saviour benedict XII will grant you acces to heaven instead of excommunition.

Why dont you do like the catholics before you and dig up saints bodies and worshipp them?
Just to let you know most catholics don't really think the pope can send them to hell, I certainly don't. By the way I have never worshiped bones.

You havent, cause most catholics today are like most muslims today. Claiming islam is peacefull and catholism is monotheistic.

[Kenneth]

Has everybody seen the Easter South Park episode with Bill Donohue and the Catholic Ninjas? Funny with a big F.

[Castoro]

As I'm not able to open a new thread, I post it here:

For christians only, unfortunately (I hope there are some here):
Petition against Williamson & Co. or "For the full recognition of the decrees of the Second Vatican Council"
This council (1965) established that the Jews cannot be charged of deicide, they must not be converted, freedom of religion etc. …
But read yourself (I am not an ititiator of the petition, I fund it accidentally)
http://www.petition-vaticanum2.org/pageID_7327623.html
Castoro

[bararallu]

er... this is a strange thread to start posting... did you take a gander at it?

good post though

[Castoro]

er... this is a strange thread to start posting... did you take a gander at it?

good post though

I don't understand "to take a gander at it" (my bad English), but if you think it's a good post, than that's fine.
And "strange thread" or not - I don't know where to place it elsewhere; I would open a new thread, but am not allowed to.:unsure:
(P.S. Feel free to open a new thread with it if you may.)

[bararallu]

I don't understand "to take a gander at it" (my bad English), but if you think it's a good post, than that's fine.
And "strange thread" or not - I don't know where to place it elsewhere; I would open a new thread, but am not allowed to.:unsure:
(P.S. Feel free to open a new thread with it if you may.)

It's ok... gander means read through it... it really took a bad turn somewhere, Christians started attacking each other over virtually nothing. Oh well. Thanks for the post and welcome to the forum. Are you Swiss?

[Castoro]

... it really took a bad turn somewhere, Christians started attacking each other over virtually nothing.

Yes I know. The Jews do nothing and only want to live and to let be in peace, but a Christian starts: "The Jews are bad", and an other Christian: "No, they are good", and the battle begins. :stick:It's all an "intern" christian quarrel, but than you hear that ultimately it's all "because of the Jews". But I don't feel so, the Jews have nothing to do with it at all, it's a problem of the Christians only - and the Jews are those who pay for it.

But do you think it would be better to simply ignore what the Vatican does? It's not only this Williamson, it's almost the whole Church who is deeply anti-semitic, with many exceptions of course, but the Church was and is the biggest promoter of Jew-hatred. I read a few articles in the catholic press recently (not only from this Pius Brotherhood), about the "bloodthirsty" Israelis and so …
Would it be better to be silent? Do you think people than would hear less of the anti-jewish diatribes and let the Jews more in peace?

You see? Now I ask you (I think you are Jewish?) - so than YOU are the responsible …

I'm not Swiss, my parents are Italians who came to work to Switzerland decades ago, and I was born and spent my whole life here - so perhaps I'm also a little Swiss …

[bararallu]

Yes I know. The Jews do nothing and only want to live and to let be in peace, but a Christian starts: "The Jews are bad", and an other Christian: "No, they are good", and the battle begins. :stick:It's all an "intern" christian quarrel, but than you hear that ultimately it's all "because of the Jews". But I don't feel so, the Jews have nothing to do with it at all, it's a problem of the Christians only - and the Jews are those who pay for it.

But do you think it would be better to simply ignore what the Vatican does? It's not only this Williamson, it's almost the whole Church who is deeply anti-semitic, with many exceptions of course, but the Church was and is the biggest promoter of Jew-hatred. I read a few articles in the Catholic press recently (not only from this Pius Brotherhood), about the "bloodthirsty" Israelis and so …
Would it be better to be silent? Do you think people than would hear less of the anti-jewish diatribes and let the Jews more in peace?

You see? Now I ask you (I think you are Jewish?) - so than YOU are the responsible …

I'm not Swiss, my parents are Italians who came to work to Switzerland decades ago, and I was born and spent my whole life here - so perhaps I'm also a little Swiss …

If I remember correctly in a recent poll in Europe about Jews/Israel shows that only 20-25% of people have any theological issues with Jews. I haven't correlated that with how many actual religious people are left in Europe these days, esp Western Europe. I think on the issue of Israel there are Christian, and even Catholic supporters of Israel, and some of them are not very friendly toward Jews, and even Jews in their countries. It's an enemy of my enemy sort of situation. I'm also a little skeptical with far right West European parties that have been parroting some pro Israel stuff while internally they are very anti-Semitic- not a religious issue, per se, but there are a lot of practicing Catholics, for instance, that vote Le Pen.

We've also had pretty good personal relationship with Italians, including my family that went through Rome coming from the USSR to the US, Israel and other places. A marked difference to what we felt in Vienna, where we also stayed for some weeks.

and yes I'm Jewish/Israeli- not religious though.

[savvy]

A lot of Jews are not aware of the changes taking place within Christian circles. A lot of mainline Protestant denominations are turning emergent or merging with New Age spirituality. They say they're not opposed to Jews, but want to free Christianity from Jewish influences such as the Old Testament and Monotheism. They think Christianity has been bad because of Orthodox Judaism.

The ADL blamed their anti-Judaism on interpretations of the New Testament without investigating what's really on with these people.

There are several Evangelical groups too now adopting the views of the Emergent church.

There are three kinds of Catholics, the conservative wackos like Williamson, even though his group is not in full communion with Rome. And the Liberal wackos who hate Israel. Orthodox Catholics are stuck in the middle of these groups who claim they speak for us.

Conservative and Liberal Catholics are both un-faithful to the teachings of the Church and would rather create their own church.

If Jews are looking for a Catholic "press", they need to look for Orthodox ones, and avoid both conservative and liberal sources.

The emergent church wants to establish a One-World Church that will merge with a One-World Marxist-Socialist Government. Obama and friends are working hard to mix the Christian New Age Left and Leftist Politics.

There are both Protestants and Catholics watching the Emergent church with horror, while many Jews continue to remain in the dark about everything that's going on.

I started the New Age thread to inform Jews about these developments.

[Castoro]

@bararallu
@savvy

I read your posts, but I'm too busy now to answer (too much silly work when there are much more interesting issues to discuss …). And I can't answer in two words, so I'll return here next weekend when I have plenty of time.

[pagan]

Jesus is Hindu..........:D
You know he came to INDIA....learned a bit of yoga...some meditation...you know...;)

[Castoro]

If I remember correctly in a recent poll in Europe about Jews/Israel shows that only 20-25% of people have any theological issues with Jews. I haven't correlated that with how many actual religious people are left in Europe these days, esp Western Europe. I think on the issue of Israel there are Christian, and even Catholic supporters of Israel, and some of them are not very friendly toward Jews, and even Jews in their countries. It's an enemy of my enemy sort of situation.

I didn't hear of this poll, and don't know exactly what is meant by having "theological issues with Jews". I don't think it's ment to be involved in Jewish-christian dialogue (?); rather to have a "theological connection" to Israel and the Jews?
There are indeed Christians who support Israel only because of theological means - what is said in the Bible? that at the end of the days Jesus will come back to Jerusalem and than all who believe in him are saved? I think it's also said that only the Jews who have converted will be saved? or something like that …
So they are very engaged in "saving" Jews, i.e. to convert them, possibly before the end of the days … these good Christians surely would deny to be the promoters of an "apocalyptic Holocaust". (I don't know if you mean this with "some of them are not very friendly toward Jews"?)
I have no idea of how many Christians in Europe have such ideas about Israel and the Jews, I think in the USA there are much more of them, in particular the "evangelical christians"?

(But I don't understand the "enemy of my enemy situation" - who is the common ennemy in this case? perhaps the Islam who wants to repossess Israel?)

As for the number of "religious people in Europe these days", it's difficult (for me) to say something about it: in general they are in decline, in part already since the French Revolution and Enlightenment, but particularly these last decades (I don't know how much it has to do with WW II too), but on the other side "extremist groups" like the Pius Broderhood and many others are gaining supporters. Also in the Vatican, where they always had many supporters, but today they have the "courage" to openly tell their "opinions". I'm sure also Benedict supports their ideas, if he could he would reintroduce a sort of "catholic theocracy", he is now forming "coalitions" in this sense …

And that's also the people who vote not only Le Pen, also in other countries many conservative catholics vote far right groups - but now the answer would become too long (is it already too long?)

We've also had pretty good personal relationship with Italians, including my family that went through Rome coming from the USSR to the US, Israel and other places. A marked difference to what we felt in Vienna, where we also stayed for some weeks.

and yes I'm Jewish/Israeli- not religious though.

I'm glad you made good experiences with Italians, more specifically with Romans, but the Romans are the best people I know, I like them very much (I can't say why exactly). I'm of Northern Italy, and the people there are not bad too … :)

Do you live in Israel now, or in the US? (if I may ask) - I've already been in Israel twice, but I spent more time at the Kotel than in Christian places …

[bararallu]

I didn't hear of this poll, and don't know exactly what is meant by having "theological issues with Jews". I don't think it's ment to be involved in Jewish-christian dialogue (?); rather to have a "theological connection" to Israel and the Jews?

Castoro,

It's one of the survey questions that I paraphrase. Here is the ADL survey (http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20_3_.pd f), it's a PDF file.

There are indeed Christians who support Israel only because of theological means - what is said in the Bible? that at the end of the days Jesus will come back to Jerusalem and than all who believe in him are saved? I think it's also said that only the Jews who have converted will be saved? or something like that …

Yes, mostly Evangelical protestants.

So they are very engaged in "saving" Jews, i.e. to convert them, possibly before the end of the days … these good Christians surely would deny to be the promoters of an "apocalyptic Holocaust". (I don't know if you mean this with "some of them are not very friendly toward Jews"?)

Few are actively trying to convert Jews. The liberal Protestant churches are more engaged in this, along with Mormons, Jews for Jesus and smaller movements.


I have no idea of how many Christians in Europe have such ideas about Israel and the Jews, I think in the USA there are much more of them, in particular the "evangelical christians"?

23% average have theological issues. With Poland being #1. Italy and the Swiss haven't been surveyed in this round. Although this is disturbing (http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/28/1002529/survey-44-percent-of-italians-anti-semitic).

(But I don't understand the "enemy of my enemy situation" - who is the common ennemy in this case? perhaps the Islam who wants to repossess Israel?)

Sometimes you don't need any enemies, but just common cultural values. I think between Italy and Israel, there are familiar cultural values (not identical of course but a large overlap). And they both differ substantially from political Islamic principles and Arab autocratic states.

As for the number of "religious people in Europe these days", it's difficult (for me) to say something about it: in general they are in decline, in part already since the French Revolution and Enlightenment, but particularly these last decades (I don't know how much it has to do with WW II too), but on the other side "extremist groups" like the Pius Broderhood and many others are gaining supporters. Also in the Vatican, where they always had many supporters, but today they have the "courage" to openly tell their "opinions". I'm sure also Benedict supports their ideas, if he could he would reintroduce a sort of "catholic theocracy", he is now forming "coalitions" in this sense …

yes we've had a couple of threads on the forum about this.

And that's also the people who vote not only Le Pen, also in other countries many conservative catholics vote far right groups - but now the answer would become too long (is it already too long?)

No, not at all. :cool: please post as you can.

I'm glad you made good experiences with Italians, more specifically with Romans, but the Romans are the best people I know, I like them very much (I can't say why exactly). I'm of Northern Italy, and the people there are not bad too … :)

Yeah we stayed in Ladispoli I think for 9 months. It was really great. Huge contrast with both Soviet Union and Austria.

Do you live in Israel now, or in the US? (if I may ask) - I've already been in Israel twice, but I spent more time at the Kotel than in Christian places

I was born in the Soviet Union (albeit most of my family is from Romania). I grew up in NY since I was a child. Worked in Western Europe/Uk for quite a few years, and made aliah (moved to Israel) in my late 20s. Most of my family moved to Israel rather than the US and elsewhere. Now I work in NY for an Israeli business. And shuttle back and forth every few months.

Are you Jewish or Christian? I dont know too many Christians that go to the Kotel in Jerusalem.

[Castoro]

It's one of the survey questions that I paraphrase. Here is the ADL survey (http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20_3_.pd f)
I took a glance at the poll.
What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.

Spain, an other predominantly catholic country, has other pretexts for hating the Jews, not so "theological" ones (more à la "Elders of Zion").

Is this comparison between Poland and Spain not very significant?
As it shows the continuity - if there was need - between the so called "Anti-judaism" of the Church and "Anti-semitism" of the Nazis (which the Vatican claims to be very different):
In Poland, where religion is still very practised (I don't know if I can say catholicism there is more "primordial") Jews are hated more because of theological means. Spain who is more "enlightened" has more "rational" reasons: the Jews have too much power or are "bad Zionists".

Sometimes you don't need any enemies, but just common cultural values. I think between Italy and Israel, there are familiar cultural values (not identical of course but a large overlap). And they both differ substantially from political Islamic principles and Arab autocratic states.
Maybe you are right I think, although I see more or deeper alliances of the "enemy of my enemy" sort between the far right (and even between many "anti-Zionist" leftists) and the Islamists (with the Hamas charter in common).

I was born in the Soviet Union (albeit most of my family is from Romania). I grew up in NY since I was a child. Worked in Western Europe/Uk for quite a few years, and made aliah (moved to Israel) in my late 20s. Most of my family moved to Israel rather than the US and elsewhere. Now I work in NY for an Israeli business. And shuttle back and forth every few months.
A very "moved" life indeed. Was your family once forced to leave from somewhere, or is that perhaps difficult to say?

Are you Jewish or Christian? I dont know too many Christians that go to the Kotel in Jerusalem.
I was baptized catholic at an age I couldn't defend myself, but left the church about ten years ago, which I now deeply regret, so I can't leave now that Benedict is "in power".
Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …

[savvy]

I took a glance at the poll.
What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.

Radio Maryja and the Polish National Church is another breakaway sect, not in union with Rome. Hence their members are not "officially" Catholic, even if they claim otherwise.

Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …


Castoro, Pave the Way Foundation is an American organization that studies Vatican secret archives pertaining to WW2. It would be worth it for you to take a look at them.

http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/NewsAndEvents/

[Castoro]

Radio Maryja and the Polish National Church is another breakaway sect, not in union with Rome. Hence their members are not "officially" Catholic, even if they claim otherwise.
A "breakaway sect, not in union with Rome"?
Radio Maryja belongs to the Redemptionist order, which is not at all "another breakaway sect". This order is under direct control of the Vatican; it is a catholic order who was admitted by the Vatican (to be constituited within the catholic church an order needs the approbation of the pope resp. of the Vatican).

That the Redemptionists are not under "jurisdiction" of the Vatican is merely an excuse the supporters of Radio Maryja always preach, and the Vatican doesn't contraddict for it's own reasons (not to loose these devoted flock I think).
They were only dispensed by the pope to obbey the local bishops; they have to respond directly to the Vatican (a very strong union with Rome indeed).

The "jurisdiction excuse" sounds as if you would say that a disobbedient monk can't be admonished by the Vatican because his direct superior is his abbot (nonsense!).

So the pope has indeed not only a voice in the matter, he is THE authority …

Castoro, Pave the Way Foundation is an American organization that studies Vatican secret archives pertaining to WW2. It would be worth it for you to take a look at them.

http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/NewsAndEvents/
No thanks.
This "foundation" protects Benedict from the "assaults" by the media etc. (in the case of Williamson now). If their "dialogue" with the Vatican is to confirm that Pius XII. was a saint and that to readmit Williamson was not so bad after all … ok, but in these terms I don't want do dialogue with them. (I'm as bad as the Jews who refuse dialogue …).

[bararallu]

I took a glance at the poll.
What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I thought that was medieval belief. The highest percentage of them im Poland, a mostly catholic country; Radio Maryja seems to do its work. I once read that because Poland was split between it's neighbours for a few hundreds of years, the Poles established their "unifying identity" through catholicism, and in part still do.

True. Poland is founded in it's Catholicism as a national virtue, a historic bulwark against German protestantism, Russian Orthodoxy and Czech heresy. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with that. But it can run away like all ethnocentric belief systems. And as my grandfather was keen on saying, there are no good outcomes leaving a cat with a large abused dog. Cats being Jews, gypsies and so on.


Spain, an other predominantly catholic country, has other pretexts for hating the Jews, not so "theological" ones (more à la "Elders of Zion").

Spain, that is the post expulsion Spain, was the founding spot of ethno aka racial (as primitive as the concept was back then) anti-Semitism. That is what they exercised against "new Christians".

Is this comparison between Poland and Spain not very significant?

Both are respectively the most anti-Semitic countries in Europe, West and East. Poland is more readily understandable to me, since I'm from Eastern Europe. Spain however is a special case. Very much opposite IMO from Italy, but in close proximity to Greece. It is a less successful country, one that is very embittered at some level. Whether it was the civil war or modernity, it's politics vacillate greatly.

As it shows the continuity - if there was need - between the so called "Anti-judaism" of the Church and "Anti-semitism" of the Nazis (which the Vatican claims to be very different): In Poland, where religion is still very practised (I don't know if I can say catholicism there is more "primordial") Jews are hated more because of theological means. Spain who is more "enlightened" has more "rational" reasons: the Jews have too much power or are "bad Zionists".

I think there has been a lot of cross pollination, of racism, of theological hate, of conspiracy theory and of pretty hard leftist politics (compliments of the Soviet Union) that amounts to todays averaged opinion.

Maybe you are right I think, although I see more or deeper alliances of the "enemy of my enemy" sort between the far right (and even between many "anti-Zionist" leftists) and the Islamists (with the Hamas charter in common).

You are not wrong on that. I would agree. I would further say that it's in the far right's interest to build up the Islamists in perception and in fact. It is an ideology driven by xenophobia after all.

A very "moved" life indeed. Was your family once forced to leave from somewhere, or is that perhaps difficult to say?

My extended family left the SU as Zionists voluntarily. Most of them even with choices moved to Israel. Some, like my immediate family did not. No one in the States made us move. We were always connected to our roots and our people. And when opportunity presented itself we moved, some partially and some fully. Like a few other Americans and Jews from other 1st world countries.

I was baptized catholic at an age I couldn't defend myself, but left the church about ten years ago, which I now deeply regret, so I can't leave now that Benedict is "in power".

Well I had my Brit Milah (religious based circumcision) at 8yo. I think it was worth it lol. Albeit I am an atheist, and consider myself an ethnic-cultural Jew.

Once at least I respected christians who really live their faith, but today I'm loosing this respect too (in part). Since I learnt how much the church had to do with the Holocaust, at least at its "highest levels", I hardly can distinguish between a christian cross and a swastika. So in Jerusalem I made short and rather "reluctant" visits to christian places, for historical or cultural interest, but than always ended up at the Kotel …

Well thanks for your candor. If it makes any difference I'd like to say that Catholics, and Muslims, and many others, can be good as well as evil. The motivations vary. The 3rd Reich was not Christian. Pol Pot was not Muslim. There is plenty of range of peoples motivations, even about the people of Poland and Spain, Iran and Palestine.

[Madeline]

Thanks. I signed. It's absalutely disgusting. The Christian Churches have been persecuting, burning, killing, bashing Jews for 2,000 years. It will never stop.

Please do not confuse the United Church of Christ with anything resembling Christianity. Most true Christians are as upset with them as you are.
It is not Christians who persecute Jews, but some power hungry, misguided, antisemitic barbarians.

Please!

[Madeline]

"I took a glance at the poll.
What I nearly can't believe is how many people still think the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ."

We have been through this before, and it is a misconception. Those who are biblical Christians know that Christ died for all our sin. Those who blame Christ's fellow Jews don't know the first thing about the Gospel.
So, when you say many people, please re-phrase it as 'many ignorant people".
:cool:
( I hope that isn't seen as preaching?)

[savvy]

A "breakaway sect, not in union with Rome"?
Radio Maryja belongs to the Redemptionist order, which is not at all "another breakaway sect". This order is under direct control of the Vatican; it is a catholic order who was admitted by the Vatican (to be constituited within the catholic church an order needs the approbation of the pope resp. of the Vatican).

That the Redemptionists are not under "jurisdiction" of the Vatican is merely an excuse the supporters of Radio Maryja always preach, and the Vatican doesn't contraddict for it's own reasons (not to loose these devoted flock I think).
They were only dispensed by the pope to obbey the local bishops; they have to respond directly to the Vatican (a very strong union with Rome indeed).

The "jurisdiction excuse" sounds as if you would say that a disobbedient monk can't be admonished by the Vatican because his direct superior is his abbot (nonsense!).

So the pope has indeed not only a voice in the matter, he is THE authority …

Conflict with Vatican
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja

The Vatican has voiced deep concern about Radio Maryja[38]. The papal nuncio in Poland, Archbishop Józef Kowalczyk, wrote to the Polish Episcopate requesting their aid "to overcome difficulties caused by some transmissions and the views presented by Radio Maryja".[23] In response in May 2006 Polish bishops established an oversight body, a Cooperative Unit for Pastoral Care of Radio Maryja (headed by bishop Sławoj Leszek Głódź). Some Polish bishops support the Reverend Rydzyk, and "thanked for the great evangelizing work conducted by Radio Maryja"[39]. Also a group of Polish Sejm deputies and EuroMPs addressed an open letter to the chair of the Episcopate of Poland concerning "protection for Radio Maryja"[39]. The controversial Father Director remains the head of Radio Maryja and the radio has ignored the warning from the Vatican ambassador[40].

Several Polish bishops had criticized Radio Maryja for spreading opinions incompatible with the official Episcopate's stand[41]. Critics note that the Polish Episcopate has been divided over Radio Maryja for a long time[42]. Media speculated that the Roman Catholic Church in Poland might be heading for a schism[43]. An imaginary breakaway church led by the Reverend Rydzyk has been named "The Rydzyk Church of Poland"[44], an ironic expression, or the "Toruń-Catholic Church" (in Polish: kościół toruńsko-katolicki). In Poland the latter term is sometimes used to refer to the ideology of Radio Maryja in general.

Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, the former secretary general of the Episcopate of Poland, said that Radio Maryja is "a real and growing problem", it "offers a reduced view on Christianity" and "is extremely compromising and shameful, sick and dangerous".[26] According to the official Vatican web page: "Radio Maryja (...) became much more involved in spreading risky politics than in spreading the Gospel[45]."

Support for death penalty

Radio Maryja promoted the political program of Law and Justice, a Polish conservative party, which together with the League of Polish Families sought to introduce capital punishment in Poland and throughout Europe[50]. The support of Radio Maryja for the death penalty contrasts strongly with the mainstream teachings of the Roman Catholic Church[51
Episcopate warns Radio Maryja on 'political broadcasting’

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul33074.html

A letter has been sent from the Vatican through its nuncio in Poland asking Polish Church authorities to intervene in the activity of the highly controversial, ultra-Catholic, Radio Maryja
http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul35159.html


No thanks.
This "foundation" protects Benedict from the "assaults" by the media etc. (in the case of Williamson now). If their "dialogue" with the Vatican is to confirm that Pius XII. was a saint and that to readmit Williamson was not so bad after all … ok, but in these terms I don't want do dialogue with them. (I'm as bad as the Jews who refuse dialogue …).


The President is Jewish. Their job is to investigate the facts, and then report it to Yad Vashem, Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.

Yad Vashem, the holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, has asked us to provide them with all of the information possible so that they can further carry out their mission of reporting this dark time in history with absolute accuracy as it has always been their policy.

http://www.ptwf.org/Projects/Education/Pope%20Pius%20XII.htm

BTW, Williamson has not been re-admitted. His ordination is still illegal and the SSPX has no authority to carry out any clerical duties and is still not in union with Rome. It only opens the way for talks, which may or may not succeed.

I am in favour of ex-communicating ALL dissidents on the far-right and the far-left, if they don't get they're act together. Enough is Enough! We can then go back to being a tiny number like the early days of Christianity and start all over again.

[savvy]

And Madeline, Thanks for your support. It's true the ignorant crazies on the right and the left, pretend to speak for us. This is very frustrating!

[Castoro]

@ Madeline
@ savvy

I will say three short things - as I have no time to respond more in detail:

1. Deicide charge
The deicide charge was "forbidden" only with the 2nd Vaticanum in 1965, and only in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Before that it was a very usual charge within the (official) catholic church - so it's you who call the Vatican and all catholics "ignorant crazies" (on the right or the left?)

2. Radio Maryja
It doesn't interest me how much it was spoken and admonished by people who have ultimately nothing to say in the matter. The pope has the authority to prohibit their further "spreading risky politics", but never did, and that is what counts.

3. Pius XII. (and Yad Vashem)
Ok, let them investigate, I'm very curious what they will find.
But you know that Yad Vashem as all people interested in the truth will not accept new "versions" if the investigators are not independent historians who have access to all of the secret archives (now they are open only until 1938, Pius XI. death).

P.S. There are people I estimate very much within the (catholic) church, as John XXIII., but also Pius XI. although at the beginning he supported fascism, and many others.

And @bararallu: Thank you for your reply, but: no time in these next days :o

[Madeline]

@Castoro..Catholic does not equal Christian necessarily. Just food for thought..if I understood your comment correctly.

[savvy]

1. Deicide charge
The deicide charge was "forbidden" only with the 2nd Vaticanum in 1965, and only in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Before that it was a very usual charge within the (official) catholic church - so it's you who call the Vatican and all catholics "ignorant crazies" (on the right or the left?)

Deicide was never an official teaching, but always a heresy. The Cathecism of the Council of Trent in the 15 century, long before Vatican 2, taught :

Besides, to increase the dignity of this mystery, Christ not only suffered for sinners, but even for those who were the very authors and ministers of all the torments He endured. Of this the Apostle reminds us in these words addressed to the Hebrews: Think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds. In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: If they had know for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of Him it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.

Vatican 2 was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. It did not teach new doctrine.

2. Radio Maryja
It doesn't interest me how much it was spoken and admonished by people who have ultimately nothing to say in the matter. The pope has the authority to prohibit their further "spreading risky politics", but never did, and that is what counts.

Read Cannon law. The Vatican is not a one man show. Since this is not an ex-cathedra decree, the Bishops at the Vatican hold equal authority to condemn Radio Marja.

3. Pius XII. (and Yad Vashem)
Ok, let them investigate, I'm very curious what they will find.
But you know that Yad Vashem as all people interested in the truth will not accept new "versions" if the investigators are not independent historians who have access to all of the secret archives (now they are open only until 1938, Pius XI. death).

I agree, there are 16 million volumes, it will take time to uncover everything.

P.S. There are people I estimate very much within the (catholic) church, as John XXIII., but also Pius XI. although at the beginning he supported fascism, and many others.

Strange, Pius XI first pastoral document was against facism.

[Y. Shulamith]

I cannot be bothered with idiots like these.....they are marginal people with marginal brains and marginal appeal to any reasonable person.

[savvy]

I cannot be bothered with idiots like these.....they are marginal people with marginal brains and marginal appeal to any reasonable person.
__________________

Well said!

[Madeline]

Well said!

Love your sig.

[savvy]

Love your sig.

Thanks Madeline:)

[CLL1709]

I cannot be bothered with idiots like these.....they are marginal people with marginal brains and marginal appeal to any reasonable person.

As Christians we must be bothered by idiots like the UCC because many Jews do not differentiate between Christians that support Jews and Israel and the idiots. I have found myself without a church because growing up Methodist I lived in New England for decades my local church was so liberal, and anti-Israel that I could no longer be apart of it. Only last summer at the annual conference the majority decided it would have nothing to do with the divestment issues adopted by some of the New England conferences. Perhaps I may try it again, and here in Florida they seem to be more conservative.

However, the fact remains that many Christians have adopted this mentality that it is tainting the entire group. How I feel about Israel is not unique among Baptists for example, they are enormous supporters of Israel, and last year I traveled to Israel with a group comprised of Baptists and non-denominational Christians and it was wonderful----once I learned to ignore conversations on the Rapture and Creationism.

I am beginning to understand why there are so many Protestant denominations. My parents were very religious people and they were also public school teachers so I grew up with the historical context of Israel based on the Holocaust and the Old Testament Hebrew as the the people of Israel were God's chosen, and frankly while they were excited by the ingathering of the Jewish people into the state of Israel because of it's Biblical prophesy, they- now I, saw this as the right thing to do by the millions of Jews persecuted since the time of Christ. AND frankly I see it part of my obligation to do what ever I can do to protect Israel from destruction by it's Islamic neighbors.

Must run now. But will come back Monday for more conversation if it develops.

[Mason]

I find it impossible that you can be both a Christian and Anti-Israel, they're completely incompatible views.

Anyone who claims to be a Christian and takes a stand against Israel is obviously just a hate monger doing things in the name of Christ.

The New Testament tells Christians to pray for the peace of Israel :|