500,000 US Jews May Emigrate to Israel by 2020

[Semsem]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/594362.html

Last update - 04:52 30/06/2005


Survey: 500,000 North American Jews could immigrate

By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent

Some 500,000 Jews could potentially immigrate to Israel from North America over the next 15 years, according to a market survey conducted on behalf of the Jewish Agency.

The survey, conducted by a U.S. market research company, Harris, is believed to be the most comprehensive study carried out till now on the subject of the immigration intentions of North American Jews. The findings of the study were presented Wednesday for the first time at a convention of the Jewish Agency's board of trustees in Jerusalem.

The poll was carried out among a representative sample from the some 6.3 million Jews living in the United States and Canada. Around 1.5 percent of the respondents (representing some 100,000 individuals) said there was a high chance of their moving to Israel, permanently or temporarily, within the next five years. Approximately 6 percent of the respondents (representing some 400,000 individuals) expressed a willingness in principle to make a permanent or temporary move to Israel.




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Ten percent of the respondents (representing some 700,000 people) expressed interest in a move to Israel.

An analysis of those interested in moving to Israel indicates that contrary to the belief of many, only one-third of these individuals are part of the Orthodox stream among U.S. Jewry. One-third define themselves as Conservative Jews, while the remainder classify themselves as Reform Jews or otherwise.

The survey was conducted among a representative sample numbering 1,690 adult Jews living in Canada and the United States. The study was initiated by an immigration-encouragement task force headed by businessman Didi Arazi, one of the owners of the Nice hi-tech company.

One of the participants at Wednesday's discussion commented that the numbers appeared somewhat inflated. "I couldn't understand how 100,000 people in North America are said to `have their bags packed' while just a few thousand immigrate from them in practice," he said.

Indeed, despite the fact that since 2001 there has been a consistent increase in the number of immigrants from the United States and Canada, the Jewish Agency believes that some 3,800 North American Jews at most will move to Israel in 2005.

Arazi says the numbers presented are not inflated, but that the answers of the respondents have to be interpreted cautiously and conservatively. "The 1.5 percent who said there is a good chance that they will move to Israel will not be immigrating tomorrow morning," Arazi said. "I would say they are ripe for immigration, but most of them won't immigrate if we aren't able to convince them to do so.

"If we do the work properly, we have a chance to bring 400,000-500,000 Jews to Israel by the year 2020," he continued.

Mike Rosenberg, the director of the Jewish Agency's Immigration Department, is aware that together with the promise reflected in the survey, its findings could lead to criticism of the Jewish Agency in the event that the rosy immigration forecasts fail to hold true.

"From now on, we won't have any more excuses," Rosenberg said.

[Ariksan]

If they all woud emigrate in the next two years most of our problems would be solved almost instantly.

[Fredo]

and what about Israelis willing to leave Israel ?
Are there surveys about Israelis willing to go abroad ? I know at least 2 Israelis willing to move, i think it would be interesting to know a pourcentage of Israelis that think of doing the same.

[NiekNL]

If they all woud emigrate in the next two years most of our problems would be solved almost instantly.

Can you explain that please>

[Mediocrates]

But by 2020 most of those emmigres will be senior-ish citizens. I'll be 61 in 2020. They should have asked teenagers because only they can bolster the country in 15 years.

[arielch]

dont worry mediocrates,we don't need the american jews,only their money :D bring that with you :p

[Berti Pane]

I dont think its possible, such a big movements can happen only from worse conditions to better conditions,people always look for a comfortable life in the history,they have a good life in America,do you really believe they would move to the middle east? :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Depends on how intolerable things become here. After 2008, another President the mold of Bush, kowtowing to the right, an impending draft, an economic crash etc. etc. or whatever the specific circumstances are, I may seriously consider it.

[Speaker]

I dont think its possible, such a big movements can happen only from worse conditions to better conditions,people always look for a comfortable life in the history,they have a good life in America,do you really believe they would move to the middle east? :rolleyes:

Israel is not so bad as you might think. Only the temperature and arabs (israeli) are the common things with MidEast. ;)

[Sahara]

All calculations are made on some very valid reasons , i strongly believe that this move will take place some day,but what will happen to USA as i believe that if jews move out from USA ..who is going to run that country . ;)

[KettleWhistle]

Country? George Bush, Lynne Cheney, Alberto Gonzales, Condi Rice, and pretty much every other member of the cabinet and powerful politicians aren't Jewish. As for the other positions, it would be Americans who aren't Jewish.

[KettleWhistle]

Depends on how intolerable things become here. After 2008, another President the mold of Bush, kowtowing to the right, an impending draft, an economic crash etc. etc. or whatever the specific circumstances are, I may seriously consider it.You mean someone like Hitlery Clinton?;)

[wellofvow]

How did they get a sample of American and Canadian Jews that was one third Orthodox, and think it was respresentative of the whole Jewish population of the US and Canada??

Hey! - you American Jews over there! - are YOU telling me that one-third Orthodox is correct???

I simply can't believe it.

This "sample" is so biased as to be invalid. That's how statistics works.

Things have simply not changed that much.

[Semsem]

and what about Israelis willing to leave Israel ?
Are there surveys about Israelis willing to go abroad ? I know at least 2 Israelis willing to move, i think it would be interesting to know a pourcentage of Israelis that think of doing the same.

Yes Fredo if they are friends with you they must be anti Israel and wishing to move to France.

[MGB8]

Don't you fret. Even if the Zionists leave the US, the Masons will still be there... and they are both controlled by the Illuminati, who themselves are being manipulated by the Grey Aliens against the Green aliens.... :p

[Mediocrates]

You mean someone like Hitlery Clinton?;)

There's like 9 other Bush's in the dynasty they have to annoint first.

[serdar]

do i miss something? you made same before... what's the Hitlary Clinton? Is it because of her husbands pro palestinian politics?

[Mediocrates]

What a dumb survey. A half million? The US would have to cease to exist for that to happen. And based on the posters here - moving to Israel would be a desperate measure for us, we wouldn't want to actually be there and you wouldn't really want us to come.

[Mediocrates]

BTW I also believe that in exchange for being allowed to keep their country, Israel will be forced to erase their law of return. So the whole notion of aliyah will be made moot.

[Fredo]

Yes Fredo if they are friends with you they must be anti Israel and wishing to move to France.

:p France/French bashing Semsem is back. Aren't you fed up with your desesperated crusade to prove me antisemitic and anti-zionist ? I remember you your last (ridiculous) attempt:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=148233&postcount=37
But well , there has been a long time that i have understood thinking that it's possible to talk and debate with you is a pure illusion...

I am sorry for you , but appart from 1 of my Israeli friends who want to live in France for a few years ( she is French/Israeli ) none of them want to leave Israel, they love their country, they are proud Israelis and wouldn't want to live elsewhere (and no they aren't leftists).
They never miss an opportunity to tell me how beautiful is Israel , to show me pics and and to tell me that i should come to visit Israel, which i'll probably do within the next 2 years.

I'll send you a postcard once there Semsem ! :D

greetings from France...

[Berti Pane]

Israel is not so bad as you might think. Only the temperature and arabs (israeli) are the common things with MidEast. ;)

That's not what I meant,I know good economical and social conditions in Israel,but I don't think living conditions that good,people don't feel safe to live under terror threats,at least what we see out of Israel.

Regards. :)

[Speaker]

That's not what I meant,I know good economical and social conditions in Israel,but I don't think living conditions that good,people don't feel safe to live under terror threats,at least what we see out of Israel.

Regards. :)

Of course from outside the country the only thing you can see on TV about Israel are terror attacks, withdrawal and etc. But I live in Israel and I feel safe enough, and there are much more reasons why people should live in Israel than why they shouldn't. And by the way living in Israel is not less safer than living in America or your Turkey.

[Mediocrates]

Safety's overrated anyway. Just look at all the moron soccermom security idiots running around here. Screaming about everything from terrorism to child molestors, gays and whatnot like it's a pandemic or something. Last year more people were probably killed in drunk fishing accidents in America than were victims of terrorism, child molestation or alien abduction.

[KettleWhistle]

An aquitenance of mine got cuffed and arrested at work in the blue state of California some half an hour after his 7-year-old told someone at school that she likes to sleep with daddy. It took them 48 hours and a good dozen of refferences to get him out, without even a hit at an official apology.

[Ophra]

My goodness :eek: ... you are all such pessimists .

Here have a secular sabra's viewpoint on things ......

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3117605,00.html

Good looking ain't he ? .... for those not in the know that is the leader of Shinui's son Tommy Lapid.

Snippet : ...

"" The country is better off because it turns out that the Israel center is a lot tougher than we thought. It’s not fooled by public relations gimmicks.

In the same way that the center ignored responding to the Geneva Accords sponsored by the Beilin Gang, it also turned its back on the threatening vision of the Eitam-Eldad gang. After four years of intifada, two years of Kassam rockets and a year of disengagement festivities, the most stable group in the state of Israel - in fact the only stable group in Israel - is the Israelis.

The country is better off because we have lost our tolerance for extremists. Any normal person - whether for or against the disengagement - sees the extremists for what they are: violent thugs of the lowest kind, who are only looking for an excuse to make trouble. ""

I think they got my vote already :D

[SteveK]

My goodness :eek: ... you are all such pessimists .

Here have a secular sabra's viewpoint on things ......

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3117605,00.html




More Israeli politics of idolatry:


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3117605,00.html

.... The country is better because God has been taken out of the game. No one can use him in the irresponsible way that has been the norm up to now. There are numerous jobs for the God of Israel to do, but bringing buses on pilgrimage to the Baba Sali plaza in Netivot is not one of them.

Whoever assures us that the Almighty is against the disengagement from the northern Gaza Strip, will have to, after the disengagement, answer the question where was the Almighty then. The answer is that he is where he has needed to be from the beginning - in the synagogue. ...

(Isaiah 42):

Thus said the God, HASHEM, Who created the heavens and stretched them forth. Who firmed the earth and it produce, Who gave a soul to the people upon it, and a spirit to those who walk on it;...

I am HASHEM, that is My Name; I shall not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven idols...

Commentary: By not punishing the wicked, God indirectly encourages idolators to believe in the potency of their gods. That will soon change. (Rada"k - Rabbi Dovid Kimchi 1157 – 1236)

[Ophra]

Yup Steve ..... you see the differance between you and me ?????

Whoever assures us that the Almighty is against the disengagement from the northern Gaza Strip, will have to, after the disengagement, answer the question where was the Almighty then. The answer is that he is where he has needed to be from the beginning - in the synagogue.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3117605,00.html

......... the other HUGE differance is that you and the settlers and the religious right are a very loud vocal minority ...... we on the other hand are a silent majority .... like I said before ..... it is going to be the Mother of all elections ..... very soon ;) :D

[Speaker]

Ophra, I have a question. Are you proud to be Jew? Oh, you're Israeli, sorry. :D

[Mediocrates]

An aquitenance of mine got cuffed and arrested at work in the blue state of California some half an hour after his 7-year-old told someone at school that she likes to sleep with daddy. It took them 48 hours and a good dozen of refferences to get him out, without even a hit at an official apology.


Well that's what you get for living in a country that thinks child molestors, gay marriage, communism, turrists and nefarious swarthy people hide behind every tree to leap out and wage war on ya. Sorry but you have a Republican gov and a largely Republican state legislature. If that's not right wing Red enough you then move to Oklahoma and join the Minutemen.

[Ophra]

Ophra, I have a question. Are you proud to be Jew? Oh, you're Israeli, sorry. :D

I'm proud to be an Israeli Speaker....... I take it your not a Sabra ? It's not something we ask each other .... why ? .... because it's a given Speaker.
Personally speaking ... I think you guys hang on to your religion because it's what holds you together. We have no need for that .

[Mediocrates]

do i miss something? you made same before... what's the Hitlary Clinton? Is it because of her husbands pro palestinian politics?

No it's an automatic kneejerk retarded soundbyte from the fools who believe that America needs to be slightly to the rifht of Ghengis Khan or Augusto Pinochet. It's the whining of the people who've won, who have to imagine into existance enemies who don't otherwise exist. After they've won all the branches of government they're content to piss and moan about how they're victims. It's the universal answer to everything to them: "Clinton". Whatever's wrong with this country, that's their stupid pat answer force fed to them by a-holes working for Roger Ailes and traitorous sh**theads who work for him. Neer mind that they never actually fix or do or improve anything and all they can do is trot out Rick Santorum who whines that the problem with America is that they literally have been unable to convert everyone to Christianity at the point of a sword. Never mind, don't look don't think.

[SteveK]

Yup Steve ..... you see the differance between you and me ?????

......... the other HUGE differance is that you and the settlers and the religious right are a very loud vocal minority ...... we on the other hand are a silent majority .... like I said before ..... it is going to be the Mother of all elections ..... very soon ;) :D


Yes, Ophra, I know the difference between you and me. You reject The Living God of Israel, and I accept Him.

But, you believe your false prophet of the Israeli idolators, Lapid, that God, Himself, will not intervene in your desecration of His Name by expelling His People from His Land.

I believe in God's justice, and this is the time for Him to demonstrate it to the Israeli Nation such that:

(Samuel I 17:46)

... Then the whole earth will know that there is a God in Israel.

[KettleWhistle]

Well that's what you get for living in a country that thinks child molestors, gay marriage, communism, turrists and nefarious swarthy people hide behind every tree to leap out and wage war on ya. Sorry but you have a Republican gov and a largely Republican state legislature. If that's not right wing Red enough you then move to Oklahoma and join the Minutemen.
I'm in Israel now, and will be here for at least the next two years. As for California, we've only got a Republican, and very moderate one at that, governor. The business-hindering, taxpayer-money-wasting, law-inventing-out-of-having-nothing-to-do, contractor-bribes-taking legislature is strongly Democrat.

[Speaker]

I'm proud to be an Israeli Speaker....... I take it your not a Sabra ? It's not something we ask each other .... why ? .... because it's a given Speaker.
Personally speaking ... I think you guys hang on to your religion because it's what holds you together. We have no need for that .

I guess what is controling you. Perez, Lapid, Sharon or money? Or both? Or hatred to jews? What would say your grandfather?! Shame to you! Only because of our religion and culture we have survived and now you give a **** about all that, and arguing with everyone here from your side. Oh, it's not your side, I forgot. So what are you doing here?

[Mediocrates]

Yeah, they're the problem, the moderates. Like I said just give everyone Juan Peron icecream white military uniforms, call them El Presidente and call it a day. Seriously you should move to Idaho or Colorado or Mississippi if you feel uncomfortable with your moderates.

Ach never mind. Who frickin cares anyway? Today it was announced that your President decided to skip over Senate confirmation for John Bolton and toss out a couple hundred years of checks and balances. I can't wait to see them do that for the Supreme Court.

[Ophra]

I'm in Israel now, and will be here for at least the next two years. As for California, we've only got a Republican, and very moderate one at that, governor. The business-hindering, taxpayer-money-wasting, law-inventing-out-of-having-nothing-to-do, contractor-bribes-taking legislature is strongly Democrat.

Mama mia !!
Would you like to meet up for coffee ??
My family would love to meet you KW ........ where you at ?

[KettleWhistle]

Yeah, they're the problem, the moderates. Like I said just give everyone Juan Peron icecream white military uniforms, call them El Presidente and call it a day. Seriously you should move to Idaho or Colorado or Mississippi if you feel uncomfortable with your moderates.
I'm perfectly fine with the moderates. It's the Democrats who create demagoguery over "rights" for illegal aliens to receive free healthcare, while people who live there legaly don't get that, and those who care more about rasing taxes for their own benefit and at the expense of every working Californian that worries me.

[Mediocrates]

Working is a relative term. Frinstance we used to have several hundred thousand more working Carolinians until companies decided that 'free trade' could help send those jobs to countries that pay 75 cents an hour and don't have safety or environmental regulations. Seemingly the bitchhand of commerce won out. Oh well I guess when there's no one left employed we'll have infinite prosperity to buy those goods and services. At least that's what Elizabeth Dole and Richard Burr tell us.

[Ophra]

I guess what is controling you. Perez, Lapid, Sharon or money? Or both? Or hatred to jews? What would say your grandfather?! Shame to you! Only because of our religion and culture we have survived and now you give a **** about all that, and arguing with everyone here from your side. Oh, it's not your side, I forgot. So what are you doing here?

What am I doing here ? :confused: Where ? These forums ???
My grandfather came here ( Israel, not the forums :) ) late 1800's from Russia... I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew . They built a Kibbutz and brought us all up as atheists . Does that answer your question ?

What controls me you ask ..... to keep my country as a secular democracy and to keep you people out of power and control.

[KettleWhistle]

Frinstance we used to have several hundred thousand more working Carolinians until companies decided that 'free trade' could help send those jobs to countries that pay 75 cents an hour and don't have safety or environmental regulations.
75 cents an hour or 75 cents day. So what? That's the way the world works. Always has, and always will. But give this situation another decade, until intelligent machines that will require about 75 cents a month come into play with things like human-less assembly lines and mechanical Mickey-D's that won't require anyone to flip burgers and won't have anyone to spit into the food (if you consider that food). Bottom line, it's about education and respecialization. The U.S. is ahead of the game because it has a decent, albeit neither good and not even close to excellent, infrastructure for it. Others will either have to learn to adapt as fast, or will start heading back to villages.

[Mediocrates]

What good is power if you can't abuse it?

[SteveK]

Quote: Ophra

What am I doing here ? :confused: Where ? These forums ???
My grandfather came here ( Israel, not the forums :) ) late 1800's from Russia... I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew . They built a Kibbutz and brought us all up as atheists . Does that answer your question ?

What controls me you ask ..... to keep my country as a secular democracy and to keep you people out of power and control.


Hi Speaker:

The atheists and idolators will go away. We just need to keep speaking to the Israeli Nation:

(Deuteronomy 6:4-5):

שמע ישראל ה' אלהינו ה' אחד
ואהבת את ה' אלהיך בכל-לבבך ובכל-נפשך ובכל-מאדך

Hear, O Israel:
The Lord, Our God, The Lord is One
You shall love HASHEM, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might

[KettleWhistle]

What good is power if you can't abuse it?"I used to say that Politics is the second oldest profession, but I have come to realize that it bears a gross similarity to the first." -- Ronald Reagan

[Mediocrates]

That's just too pat an answer. Sorry. People didn't 'get educated' in making aluminum siding but their employers understand that if you can offshore the work to a country that basically doesn't care if the workers stand around breathing in acid fumes all day they can shave some dollars from the cost. Let no one pretend this is about free trade or opening foreign markets to American goods they obviously can't afford to buy in the first place. And let no one imagine that eventually you'll see the same erosion of labor laws, workplace and environmental laws here. By any rational expectation the jobs which will still be here in 20 years are those that require some degree of physical contact or interaction and there is simply a limit on how many physical therapists, dentists, insurance salesmen and grocery baggers an economy can absorb.

[Speaker]

What am I doing here ? :confused: Where ? These forums ???
My grandfather came here ( Israel, not the forums :) ) late 1800's from Russia... I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew . They built a Kibbutz and brought us all up as atheists . Does that answer your question ?

What controls me you ask ..... to keep my country as a secular democracy and to keep you people out of power and control.

lol. You're a Russian Jew by yourself because your grandfather and grandmother came from Russia, and they are Jews. So you said all that against them too. Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite. I have news for you, you're a Jew that born in Israel which afraids of being called a Jew so that is a reason for using other names like Israeli or Sabra (in your case). So you're not just anti-semite. You're hater of your own Jewish blood. Seems that for some reason you also don't have enough knowledge.

About that Kibbutz made by Russian Jews which arrived Israel before 1948 you're right. But their community is communistic because they were landed on the land of Palestine which was before 1948 when all the communism was getting power in USSR, and then they didn't know that Communism is a such bad so they decided to follow their ideas about Communism because that was seeming pretty good. But after years people in USSR under control of Communism began to understand what is the real Communism after the results of the times.

[minusthejihad]

I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew.

WTF? What kind of cracked-out SHJB was that woman?

[minusthejihad]

lol. You're a Russian Jew by yourself because your grandfather and grandmother came from Russia, and they are Jews. So you said all that against them too. Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite. I have news for you, you're a Jew that born in Israel which afraids of being called a Jew so that is a reason for using other names like Israeli or Sabra (in your case). So you're not just anti-semite. You're hater of your own Jewish blood. Seems that for some reason you also don't have enough knowledge.

And she attacks me for intermarriage. Makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe it;s senility.

[Ophra]

lol. You're a Russian Jew by yourself because your grandfather and grandmother came from Russia, and they are Jews. So you said all that against them too. Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite. I have news for you, you're a Jew that born in Israel which afraids of being called a Jew so that is a reason for using other names like Israeli or Sabra (in your case). So you're not just anti-semite. You're hater of your own Jewish blood. Seems that for some reason you also don't have enough knowledge.

About that Kibbutz made by Russian Jews which arrived Israel before 1948 you're right. But their community is communistic because they were landed on the land of Palestine which was before 1948 when all the communism was getting power in USSR, and then they didn't know that Communism is a such bad so they decided to follow their ideas about Communism because that was seeming pretty good. But after years people in USSR under control of Communism began to understand what is the real Communism after the results of the times.

You are very smart ..... I wish I was as smart as you :)

You don't know much about the history of your own country do you ???
.......................

Between 1881 and 1914, 2.5 million Jews migrated from Russia--2 million to America and only 30,000 to Palestine. They were primarily secularists. Many were the intellectuals who belonged to the underground socialist and revolutionary groups of the time. They were the radicals who questioned the old ways of both the society in which they lived in East Europe and of their traditional religious beliefs. Many of them were young, militant people including teenagers who viewed the years of Diaspora life as a shameful existence. Among them was David Ben Gurion who believed in the Socialist-Zionist philosophy of the Poalei Zion (Workers of Zion) movement. In 1903 Chiam Weizman, a native of Motol, a town near Telechan, wrote about the young Jews who had turned into political and religious revolutionaries. He described one situation where, "in one small town near Pinsk, (Jewish) youngsters tore the Torah scrolls to shreds." This could have been Telechan.

The people of the Second Aliyah believed in labor Zionism, often rejecting what they perceived as the romanticism of the First Aliyah. Their energy was directed to the more practical problems of colonization. Like their predecessors, most came from Russian Poland, particularly after the abortive revolution there in 1905. They were pioneers who believed in physical labor, cooperation and self-defense. Like their predecessors, they owned property for the first time. They were the developers of the Kibbutz movement.

The rate of immigration of these dedicated Zionists increased from the 1,000 per year of the First Aliyah to 3,000 annually during the Second Aliyah

During the combined period of the First and Second Aliyahs the United States was still the major attraction for Jews who emigrated from Europe. Only three percent (3%) of intercontinental migrants went to Palestine. The first two Aliyahs together accounted for the immigration of 70,000 Jews to Palestine. Many of them later left because of the hardship of the life there. Of the more than 100,000 who entered in the years up to World War I, approximately one half did not stay. Still by 1914 there were 50 Jewish agricultural settlements with a population of 15,000. Palestines total population before World War I of almost 700,000. Only 85,000 (12%) were Jewish.
...................

"" Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite "" ...... they were my grandmothers words not mine.... her history not mine . My grandparents rejected their past and anything to do with Judaism and Russia.... they were not alone ... many were like them then .
If you want to understand a people you must learn their history .

[frizzer1]

"" ...... they were my grandmothers words not mine.... her history not mine . My grandparents rejected their past and anything to do with Judaism and Russia.... they were not alone ... many were like them then .


"there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew."

I find her words upsetting.Because she would say something like that to a child,for heaven's sake,and that she would hate her fellow jews so much.
It's one thing to leave your religion.It's another to hate it so.

[Speaker]

You are very smart ..... I wish I was as smart as you :)

You don't know much about the history of your own country do you ???
.......................

Between 1881 and 1914, 2.5 million Jews migrated from Russia--2 million to America and only 30,000 to Palestine. They were primarily secularists. Many were the intellectuals who belonged to the underground socialist and revolutionary groups of the time. They were the radicals who questioned the old ways of both the society in which they lived in East Europe and of their traditional religious beliefs. Many of them were young, militant people including teenagers who viewed the years of Diaspora life as a shameful existence. Among them was David Ben Gurion who believed in the Socialist-Zionist philosophy of the Poalei Zion (Workers of Zion) movement. In 1903 Chiam Weizman, a native of Motol, a town near Telechan, wrote about the young Jews who had turned into political and religious revolutionaries. He described one situation where, "in one small town near Pinsk, (Jewish) youngsters tore the Torah scrolls to shreds." This could have been Telechan.

The people of the Second Aliyah believed in labor Zionism, often rejecting what they perceived as the romanticism of the First Aliyah. Their energy was directed to the more practical problems of colonization. Like their predecessors, most came from Russian Poland, particularly after the abortive revolution there in 1905. They were pioneers who believed in physical labor, cooperation and self-defense. Like their predecessors, they owned property for the first time. They were the developers of the Kibbutz movement.

The rate of immigration of these dedicated Zionists increased from the 1,000 per year of the First Aliyah to 3,000 annually during the Second Aliyah

During the combined period of the First and Second Aliyahs the United States was still the major attraction for Jews who emigrated from Europe. Only three percent (3%) of intercontinental migrants went to Palestine. The first two Aliyahs together accounted for the immigration of 70,000 Jews to Palestine. Many of them later left because of the hardship of the life there. Of the more than 100,000 who entered in the years up to World War I, approximately one half did not stay. Still by 1914 there were 50 Jewish agricultural settlements with a population of 15,000. Palestines total population before World War I of almost 700,000. Only 85,000 (12%) were Jewish.
...................

"" Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite "" ...... they were my grandmothers words not mine.... her history not mine . My grandparents rejected their past and anything to do with Judaism and Russia.... they were not alone ... many were like them then .
If you want to understand a people you must learn their history .

Ophra, I told you why Kibbutz are communistic communities just in short words. There was really no need to post all that for showing who is smarter. If I didn't post something it doesn't mean that I don't know it. ;) Anyway I'm not sure that all these statements about Aliyot are from your own knowledge and that you're good in history because if yes, then you wouldn't hate the Jews that have a belief in the god and accept the Judaism and thanks god that there are people like that, that keep their belief and are proud of being what they are (Jews in this case) because by them we are survived. Because if all of Jews would reject the Judaism like your grandparents did and like you do then there wouldn't be a country called Israel and there wouldn't be Sabras like you.

Gilgamesh was right when he said that we should ignore you, because it is senselessly to keep arguing with person that anyway won't understand nothing.

[KettleWhistle]

That's just too pat an answer. Sorry. People didn't 'get educated' in making aluminum siding but their employers understand that if you can offshore the work to a country that basically doesn't care if the workers stand around breathing in acid fumes all day they can shave some dollars from the cost.

Cry me a river. The Western countries didn't have any of that either. So it took several of political pressure to institute labor laws, safety laws, etc. Likewise, the third world will either take the responsibility for itself the way West had done some 100 years ago, give or take a few decades, or they'll continue to do the dirty work for us until advanced robotics replace the need for cheap manual laborers. It's really up to them, not up to us.

[KettleWhistle]

"there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew."

I find her words upsetting.Because she would say something like that to a child,for heaven's sake,and that she would hate her fellow jews so much.
It's one thing to leave your religion.It's another to hate it so.

I find her words (oxy)moronic. But they do explain a lot.

[SteveK]

Ophra:

My grandfather came here ( Israel, not the forums ) late 1800's from Russia... I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew . They built a Kibbutz and brought us all up as atheists . Does that answer your question ?

Speaker:

"" Anyway your statements were really anti-semitic which means you're anti-semite ""

Ophra:

...... they were my grandmothers words not mine.... her history not mine . My grandparents rejected their past and anything to do with Judaism and Russia.... they were not alone ... many were like them then .
If you want to understand a people you must learn their history.

frizzer1:

"there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew."

I find her words upsetting.Because she would say something like that to a child,for heaven's sake,and that she would hate her fellow jews so much.
It's one thing to leave your religion.It's another to hate it so.


Of course, it depends on the origin of that path along which you will send a child ...

Proverbs (22:6):

"Train a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old, he will not depart from it."


Ophra to SteveK: (Biggest Anti-Pullout Protests End post #96)

Dear people of Israel [Imaginary speech by Arik Sharon].... vote for me and I will bring Peace by transferring all Arabs to the moon and giving those wonderful peaceful messianic madmen all the Land that God promised to them 2,000 [???] years ago .... plus I will then immediately retire and hand over my Prime Minister status to the Chief Rabbi who will then declare a religious theocracy instead of our secular democracy .
The Chief Rabbi will then organize the destruction of the The Dome of the Rock and order the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem .

WOW ... I wonder how many votes he would have got then ???

Wonder what America and the rest of the International community would have to say about that ?????.......... or don't you care ??


By the way, Ophra, God sent us Jews along our path from an origin of more than 3,500 years ago,and not the 2,000 that you wrote (the Jews' origin is from the time of Abraham and not the Second Temple period). But, Ophra, you were so right to have said: If you want to understand a people you must learn their history.

[Mediocrates]

Cry me a river. The Western countries didn't have any of that either. So it took several of political pressure to institute labor laws, safety laws, etc. Likewise, the third world will either take the responsibility for itself the way West had done some 100 years ago, give or take a few decades, or they'll continue to do the dirty work for us until advanced robotics replace the need for cheap manual laborers. It's really up to them, not up to us.


The point is that its unfair advantage to them not us. Would thay we could tear up all the laws of the last hundred years and compete with them on that basis. I'm actually all for it. I say screw minimum wage laws, child labor and EPA regs. I advocate a return of indentured servitude. I'm not kidding.

[Ophra]

Ophra, I told you why Kibbutz are communistic communities just in short words. There was really no need to post all that for showing who is smarter. If I didn't post something it doesn't mean that I don't know it. ;) Anyway I'm not sure that all these statements about Aliyot are from your own knowledge and that you're good in history because if yes, then you wouldn't hate the Jews that have a belief in the god and accept the Judaism and thanks god that there are people like that, that keep their belief and are proud of being what they are (Jews in this case) because by them we are survived. Because if all of Jews would reject the Judaism like your grandparents did and like you do then there wouldn't be a country called Israel and there wouldn't be Sabras like you.

Gilgamesh was right when he said that we should ignore you, because it is senselessly to keep arguing with person that anyway won't understand nothing.

"" Because if all of Jews would reject the Judaism like your grandparents did and like you do then there wouldn't be a country called Israel and there wouldn't be Sabras like you ""

I completely disagree with the above.
It was those like my grandparents who built this country .... where were yours ... living the good life in America ????
Read my history lesson again please.
""During the combined period of the First and Second Aliyahs the United States was still the major attraction for Jews who emigrated from Europe. Only three percent (3%) of intercontinental migrants went to Palestine. The first two Aliyahs together accounted for the immigration of 70,000 Jews to Palestine. Many of them later left because of the hardship of the life there. Of the more than 100,000 who entered in the years up to World War I, approximately one half did not stay. Still by 1914 there were 50 Jewish agricultural settlements with a population of 15,000. Palestines total population before World War I of almost 700,000. Only 85,000 (12%) were Jewish.""

"" Gilgamesh was right when he said that we should ignore you, because it is senselessly to keep arguing with person that anyway won't understand nothing. ""

Son... you ask me a question and I attempt to answer it as best I can .... I am not arguing with you , it is you that is arguing with me . Go ahead and ignore me ... as if I care ... what I gave you was pure history of your country... go bury your head in an ancient book and learn how Jews lived 3,000 + years ago .... I'm sure that will really help you understand this modern world :rolleyes:

[Ophra]

Of course, it depends on the origin of that path along which you will send a child ...







By the way, Ophra, God sent us Jews along our path from an origin of more than 3,500 years ago,and not the 2,000 that you wrote (the Jews' origin is from the time of Abraham and not the Second Temple period). But, Ophra, you were so right to have said: If you want to understand a people you must learn their history.

Oops I made a mistake with the numbers ... silly me.

Interesting how you accept the rest of it though Steve :D

[SteveK]

Oops I made a mistake with the numbers ... silly me.

Interesting how you accept the rest of it though Steve :D


Ophra,

The fact that I accept 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage in comparison to your measley 100 years of atheism, doesn't really leave that much for the "rest of it" that I might squeeze out for some acceptance of your arguements.

And, what I'm really accepting from your arguements is a decisive danger signal of a "critical mass" of corrupt people at the top. You and your family, with you as the spokesperson, couldn't have been in Israel for the last 100 years without slopping around with some of the Israeli finest of the atheist slimeballs.

[Sihvyl]

There seems to be alot of disagreement on the article (I didn't read all of the replies though). Indeed, maybe the numbers are wrong. I don't know about you other 499,999 people :cool: but, I'll see some of you there.

[Toga]

What am I doing here ? :confused: Where ? These forums ???
My grandfather came here ( Israel, not the forums :) ) late 1800's from Russia... I always remember my grandmother telling me as a child...there is only one thing worse than a Russian and that's a Russian Jew . They built a Kibbutz and brought us all up as atheists . Does that answer your question ?

What controls me you ask ..... to keep my country as a secular democracy and to keep you people out of power and control.

Actually, I agree about raising us as atheists was inexcusable but when I asked my mom the question "WHY" she said they did not know any better and were wrong but nobody told them they were wrong.