Biggest anti pullout protests ends

[sharonbn]

250 arrested as protest ends

Three-day protest ends, small group pledges to continue attempts to reach Gush Katif

KFAR MAIMON – Some 250 anti-disengagement protesters were arrested for trying to infiltrate the Gaza Strip early Thursday, as police’s worst fears actualized when anti-disengagement protesters left Kfar Maimon and tried to infiltrate the Gaza Strip, in an attempt to reach Gush Katif.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3115947,00.html

[Ophra]

Have you seen this : http://www.thebluewhite.org/

The silent majority is beginning to wake up ;)..... time to shout it out from the rooftops sharonbn.
Democracy will prevail.
Hopefully the average Palestinian will follow our lead .
"They" have began to look at how strong our resolve is, and they are cracking at the seems :D
Extremism,violence, and assassination does not work.
"They" thought they had a chance at an Army coup and to replace our secular democracy with a religious theocracy ..... well "they" can think again .

[Ariksan]

May I join in your new song?

Hurray for our new dictator, long live the banana republic of Israel. Corruption, who cares? You can only be corrupt if you don't think like I do. Democracy as long as it serves my leftist ideology, no democracy for people who don't think like I do. Arrest all people who don't think like me. You can vote for whoever you want you will always get Peres. Police state for teh win!

[Ophra]

May I join in your new song?

Hurray for our new dictator, long live the banana republic of Israel. Corruption, who cares? You can only be corrupt if you don't think like I do. Democracy as long as it serves my leftist ideology, no democracy for people who don't think like I do. Arrest all people who don't think like me. You can vote for whoever you want you will always get Peres. Police state for teh win!

If you like :D

" Don't cry for me Argentina .... you know I always loved you :p " LOL .

[sharonbn]

May I join in your new song?

Hurray for our new dictator, long live the banana republic of Israel. Corruption, who cares? You can only be corrupt if you don't think like I do. Democracy as long as it serves my leftist ideology, no democracy for people who don't think like I do. Arrest all people who don't think like me. You can vote for whoever you want you will always get Peres. Police state for teh win!
and I thought the lefitsts whine ....

[Ophra]

and I thought the lefitsts whine ....

:D

Left or right ... don't matter anymore sharonbn.... it's us against "them" .... religious extremists , messianic madmen .... Islamic or Orthodox Jews, they are all the same.

[Mediocrates]

Pity is treason. -Robespierre

[sharonbn]

so Robespierre is your role model..... that explains a lot

[minusthejihad]

May I join in your new song?

Hurray for our new dictator, long live the banana republic of Israel. Corruption, who cares? You can only be corrupt if you don't think like I do. Democracy as long as it serves my leftist ideology, no democracy for people who don't think like I do. Arrest all people who don't think like me. You can vote for whoever you want you will always get Peres. Police state for teh win!

Right on the mark.

Democracy? What democracy? No vote, no national referendum, and arrests of people who dissent? It's a shame.

[minusthejihad]

:D

Islamic or Orthodox Jews, they are all the same.

How thoughtful and sincere.

[minusthejihad]

I take it Ophra has never been to New York.

[Ophra]

How thoughtful and sincere.

Oh lookie .... the little Russian is debating the subject matter yet again :rolleyes:
Yap yap little poodle .... married your goya yet ?? :D

[minusthejihad]

married your goya yet ?? :D

With the statements you made above, I can't understand why this would be of any importance to a non-Jew and anti-religionist like you? Ummm..... oh right, hypocrisy?

I also believe you were just trolling too.

[Mediocrates]

so Robespierre is your role model..... that explains a lot

Me? No, Machiavelli. My point was your utter lack of pity on your own. Apparently your irony gland has atrophied.

[Mediocrates]

Oh lookie .... the little Russian is debating the subject matter yet again :rolleyes:
Yap yap little poodle .... married your goya yet ?? :D


Goya is a brand of beans that comes from Mexico. And an artist.

[atricnorth]

if not for orthodox jews, the culture and the very essence of jews will dissappear. best you can do is to be grateful for all they have done for israel, or else there would not be a state of israel.

be grateful for the number of children they have given birth forth
be grateful that those who help stand in the gap for the secular jews.

<edited by moderator>

to get to 6 million is a miracle, better have more than 6 million with orthodox jew having more jewish babies than seculars having an average of 2.

<edited by moderator>

i once heard a jew on tv, said" we shall not forget , we shall not forget, we shall not forget".

[Ophra]

With the statements you made above, I can't understand why this would be of any importance to a non-Jew and anti-religionist like you? Ummm..... oh right, hypocrisy?

I also believe you were just trolling too.

LMAO :D

Well at least I am an Israeli ... something you will never amount to ;)

Have at it <edited by moderator>.... I'm here to discuss this with sharonbn, another Israeli ...if you haven't noticed .

Anything a <edited by moderator> such as yourself has to say has not the slightest interest to me ... that I can find out by reading Arutz 7

<edited by moderator>

[Ophra]

Goya is a brand of beans that comes from Mexico. And an artist.

<edited by moderator>

[Ophra]

if not for orthodox jews, the culture and the very essence of jews will dissappear. best you can do is to be grateful for all they have done for israel, or else there would not be a state of israel.

be grateful for the number of children they have given birth forth
be grateful that those who help stand in the gap for the secular jews.

<edited by moderator>

to get to 6 million is a miracle, better have more than 6 million with orthodox jew having more jewish babies than seculars having an average of 2.

<edited by moderator>

i once heard a jew on tv, said" we shall not forget , we shall not forget, we shall not forget".

:rolleyes:
Does that hold for the ones that are Australian residents too ???? :cool:

[Mediocrates]

One would think this is your favorite one

http://www.musesrealm.net/creations/wallpapers/goya.jpg

[minusthejihad]

Well at least I am an Israeli ... something you will never amount to ;)

Wah Wah Wee Wow! You were born in a country in which you became a citizen. Golf clap!!


Have at it <edited by moderator>.... I'm here to discuss this with sharonbn, another Israeli ...if you haven't noticed .

Good, so then you have no reason to flame me and personally attack me for participating in a discussion about the issue. If you don't want to discuss it with me, then don't respond to my posts. It's really that simple.


Anything a <edited by moderator>such as yourself has to say has not the slightest interest to me ... that I can find out by reading Arutz 7

You don't know me nor enough about me to classify me as anything. But feel free to assume what you want.


<edited by moderator>

Oh really? Great. I'll email you when I'm coming to visit and you can try and stop me. Who knows, my <edited by moderator>family may <edited by moderator>

Sure, you may not want us there, but you've never had any problems with our money we send.

[minusthejihad]

Goya is a brand of beans that comes from Mexico. And an artist.

Well, she is an artist, just not the artist. ;)

[Mediocrates]

It will be interesting to see the long term effects of increasing escalation. Oh I'm sure the Haaretzniks here think they can squash people and their interests once and for all. But societies don't work that way. Now the genie is out of the bottle. Now there is a strong precident for:


A goverment that can lie to your face and turn 180 degrees and screw you with impunity.
A government that can crush civil protest w/o restriction.
A faction that can successfully operate by demonizing a minority into submission.
A policy that asserts that quid pro quo is not necessary, that commitments from the Palestinians are not only not required but are not demanded either.
In either case whether you become just like the the Arabs you oppose or not it will be interesting to see how you deal with civil discontent further in the future. I wonder how labor strikes or protests from farmers will be dealt with? I wonder how IDF refuseniks or Charedi troops will be dealt with? Seems like the die is cast, yes? Bash them down and carry them off.

[Ophra]

It will be interesting to see the long term effects of increasing escalation. Oh I'm sure the Haaretzniks here think they can squash people and their interests once and for all. But societies don't work that way. Now the genie is out of the bottle. Now there is a strong precident for:


A goverment that can lie to your face and turn 180 degrees and screw you with impunity.
A government that can crush civil protest w/o restriction.
A faction that can successfully operate by demonizing a minority into submission.
A policy that asserts that quid pro quo is not necessary, that commitments from the Palestinians are not only not required but are not demanded either.
In either case whether you become just like the the Arabs you oppose or not it will be interesting to see how you deal with civil discontent further in the future. I wonder how labor strikes or protests from farmers will be dealt with? I wonder how IDF refuseniks or Charedi troops will be dealt with? Seems like the die is cast, yes? Bash them down and carry them off.

Whatever .

Sharonb is right... it's pointless debating with you guys . <edited by moderator> :p

Only one thing to say .... Ariel Sharon rulez !! ... he really really does :D :D
Hopefully your bunch won't shoot him in the back .... like they did to Rabin .

[minusthejihad]

Apparently, what Medio has said to you struck a nerve as you would rather dismiss him as a <edited by moderator> rather than actually try to refute his point.

[Mediocrates]

Only one thing to say .... Ariel Sharon rulez !! ... he really really does :D :D
Hopefully your bunch won't shoot him in the back .... like they did to Rabin .


Oh yes no doubt PM Sharon rules. One can't even quibble that much with the strategy...but like we say about the Christians; "Jesus protect me from your followers....!"

And no, no one wants to shoot elected leaders in the back. Rest assured we'll leave "Promotion through detonation" to the Palestinians and their hangers-on. Let me ask you this though. Will you still back Arik if he turns around in September and refuses to budge one inch on Judea Samaria? If so, then I suspect your support of the Gaza withdrawal had more to do with your own belief in how easy it would be and not so much whether it was the right or wrong thing to do. Kind of Machiavellian of you, doncha think?

[Mediocrates]

Apparently, what Medio has said to you struck a nerve as you would rather dismiss him as a <edited by moderator> rather than actually try to refute his point.


I don't like doughnuts, don't like sweets for the most part.

Anyway me and my family have moved a lot further from where we came from than the Sabras. So they shouldn't feel too smug about embracing change. It's really kind of quaint and parochial how insular and conservative the Israeli left has become; don't rock the boat. Who'd have imagined that the last Israeli cultural revolution came directly out of the Torah.

[SteveK]

:D

Left or right ... don't matter anymore sharonbn.... it's us against "them" .... religious extremists , messianic madmen .... Islamic or Orthodox Jews, they are all the same.

Ophra,

As you progress with your distillation process, you will eventually come to being "us" against God and Torah, and the obligations of the Jewish People to our Covenant with Him at Mount Sinai.

Though I advocate a national Torah leadership for Israel, I have also gone on record in my posts as saying that the current Jewish religious movements and rabbinic dynasties are all poison,--- but from the poison must come a derivative for a cure. And, that cure must lead to a united sovereign Jewish People under God and Torah.

And, that derivative for a cure must come from the most qualified of the Torah observant Jews,- the Chassidic movements,- and more specifically
from Breslov.

You might know that Rebbe Nachman of Breslov died at the age of 38 in 1810.
He journeyed to Israel between the years 1798 - 1799. He founded a movement Breslov which is hardly composed of madmen, as I am sure that you are well aware. If any "extreme" ewish religious movement deserves our respect and admiration, then it's Breslov.



Quote:"The world considers faith a minor thing, but I consider it an extremely great thing.... Faith is the foundation of the whole of Judaism. It is the root of all Jewish teaching and practice."

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov


Rebbe Nachman lived at what must count as one of the most significant turning-points in human history. His lifetime spanned the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, the American Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution. Rebbe Nachman put his finger on the pulse of the dawning age and said:


Quote:"I'll tell you a secret. Great atheism is coming into the world..."


The core of our problems here in Israel, and the whole of the Jewish People,
is about our lack of faith. And, this matter of restoring faith, by the Jewish People in The Living God of Israel, is the focus of all of Rebbe Nachman's teachings.

Now, how to get Breslovers to deliver that message to the Israeli Nation and teach us is another issue. So far, all the religious groups have scored 0 on raising the conscience of the Israeli Nation to God and Torah.

[SteveK]

Ophra,-

There is a little hope. This is a link to a post #1 at www.chabadtalk.com,
"Interesting Picture"

"Soldiers and Protesters making the same Minyan even though
there is a barbed wired fence between them!"...



http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5801

[minusthejihad]

That is an incredible photo.

[Gilgamesh]

Ophra,
You are worst then an embaressment. You are sick!

You are on the wrong forum here. You should find you way to Umah forum or Pravda forum, or stromfront... where other share your hate of Jews who are not born as a model communist in a Kibbutz.

I vote to ban Ophra. We got enough samples of her perverted thinking.

Till, then, Ophra is on my ignore list, and so should do all of us. No reason to waste time on a wierdow troll. We have enough of these screwballs in Israel as well...

[Ophra]

Ophra,
You are worst then an embaressment. You are sick!

You are on the wrong forum here. You should find you way to Umah forum or Pravda forum, or stromfront... where other share your hate of Jews who are not born as a model communist in a Kibbutz.

I vote to ban Ophra. We got enough samples of her perverted thinking.

Till, then, Ophra is on my ignore list, and so should do all of us. No reason to waste time on a wierdow troll. We have enough of these screwballs in Israel as well...

What's the matter Gilgamesh ?? ... Poor looser ??? Or didn't you get thru to the Gush ?????? :D

Ah yes .. my perverted thinking :rolleyes: The fact that I am in the majority, just brush it aside why don't you ? The fact that I support my government , just brush it aside why don't you ? The fact that we promised Pres. Bush that we would control you extremists and Abbas would control his,just brush it aside why don't you ?
Maybe it's because I mentioned Rabin ?????????
You guys can't handle the truth .... here have some more of how we real Israelies think :

State of Yesha

It's a different country over there in the West Bank, Yaron London writes ...

Out in the West Bank, there is a nation that has developed its own laws and has separated itself from the mother country in its customs and beliefs.

Their country has its own education system, youth groups, finance ministry, its own heroes, settlements, and language.

Israel demands that country obey its laws, but it continually not only breaks those laws, but also presents its own demands, requiring the mother country to give up part of its own sovereignty.

Like any aggressive country, Yesha presents itself as a purveyor of peace, therefore, demanding permission to riot lest its extremists resort to fatal violence.

Separate language

The language of this foreign country is related to the Semitic family of languages, and it sounds very similar to Hebrew.

But the words have different meanings.

For instance, the phrase, “an attempt to use force to thwart the decisions of the elected government," is translated into their language as “non-violent protest.”

The demand to “recognize law-breaking as a legitimate form of protest” is translated as “democracy,” and “revolution” is “answering the Torah’s command, as understood by rabbis paid by the mother country.”

“Mass violation of a closed military zone” is actually “helping our heroic brothers in Gush Katif,” and “IDF officers” are “nasty soldiers who have traded their principles for money and promises of personal advancement.”

“Moving people a short distance from their homes with generous compensation for their inconvenience” is “transfer,” “a nice neighborhood in the nicest place in Israel" is a “closed camp,” “Knesset” means “den of corruption,” and “government” is “Sharon’s mafia.”

Old warning coming true

We are seeing the age-old warnings of the anti-occupation camp; namely, that the settler state would eventually become very powerful, and at the moment of truth would revolt against the State of Israel.

It was expected, because that’s what happened in other countries that built colonies, such as “French Algeria” that tried to toppled the republic.

As with the Algerian settlers, our settlers developed their own interests, in direct opposition to those of the mother country. They built
an autonomy, pretend to be protecting the greater national interest, accuse the central government of treason and encourage the army to commit rebellion.

As the French Algerians did, Yesha folks say that instead of negotiating with Muslims, we should “let the army win," and their “extremists” call for attacks on Muslims so all the national energy will be spent trying to prevent mass attacks.

In addition, their approach to Israel’s elected leader-- a charismatic, career army officer that pissed them off-- is very similar to the French example. Here, we have yet to uncover an underground movement to kill government officials, but it is an expected development.

As it was in France, so, too it is here: the heartfelt calls for national unity and national responsibility must accompany us at demonstrations of that country’s strength. It would be a weakness to recognize our neighbors right to exist, the state of Yesha.

(07.21.05, 15:28)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3116026,00.html

[SteveK]

What's the matter Gilgamesh ?? ... Poor looser ??? Or didn't you get thru to the Gush ?????? :D

... The fact that I am in the majority, just brush it aside why don't you ? The fact that I support my government , just brush it aside why don't you ?
...



Ophra,

The real majority put Sharon into power for exactly the opposite reasons that he is advocating today. Sharon came to power by the majority because of his strong,-- at least strongly perceived,-- Zionist and Jewish agenda.

But, you leftists didn't support your government then,- a government of Likud brought into power with a landslide victory. You just brushed aside what the majority willed in our putting Sharon into power.

You were the big losers then. Labor was scratching around in their ideological garbage can.

Sharon still might have intact his own resolve to do what he wanted to do and should have done. He was the first Prime Minister who took that filthy dog
Arafat who had been all prissied up by your candidates, and put him back into the dog house. Sharon did put his weight behind the building up of Jewish
land, which you want destroyed for surrender to the Arabs.

About the time of his pending criminal investigation and likely indictment, he suddenly had this change of heart in his Zionist and Jewish agenda, and started to sing the tune of you leftists here. What was the weapon that your "majority" used to assassinate the resolve of our Prime Minister who was elected by the real majority to serve and protect The State of Israel, and not
surrender any part of it, or make any of his People outcasts?

I would believe this kind of behaviour naturally from the likes of Shimon Peres if he were God forbid Prime Minister, but this is not the real character of Arik Sharon now being seen.

What did your "majority" do to kill the true leadership potential of what my real majority had put into power?

[minusthejihad]

The fact that I am in the majority, just brush it aside why don't you ?
That is very weak justification. Some of the most evil things that have happened on this planet occured with the majority's approval. Because a few more people agree with you says nothing about whether they are right or wrong.

[KettleWhistle]

I'm in Israel now, and my driver told me yesterday that he's glad the cops are busy with protestor, and don't bug people with traffick tickets.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

The real majority put Sharon into power for exactly the opposite reasons that he is advocating today. Sharon came to power by the majority because of his strong,-- at least strongly perceived,-- Zionist and Jewish agenda.

But, you leftists didn't support your government then,- a government of Likud brought into power with a landslide victory. You just brushed aside what the majority willed in our putting Sharon into power.

You were the big losers then. Labor was scratching around in their ideological garbage can.

Sharon still might have intact his own resolve to do what he wanted to do and should have done. He was the first Prime Minister who took that filthy dog
Arafat who had been all prissied up by your candidates, and put him back into the dog house. Sharon did put his weight behind the building up of Jewish
land, which you want destroyed for surrender to the Arabs.

About the time of his pending criminal investigation and likely indictment, he suddenly had this change of heart in his Zionist and Jewish agenda, and started to sing the tune of you leftists here. What was the weapon that your "majority" used to assassinate the resolve of our Prime Minister who was elected by the real majority to serve and protect The State of Israel, and not
surrender any part of it, or make any of his People outcasts?

I would believe this kind of behaviour naturally from the likes of Shimon Peres if he were God forbid Prime Minister, but this is not the real character of Arik Sharon now being seen.

What did your "majority" do to kill the true leadership potential of what my real majority had put into power?

Steve,

I voted for Ariel Sharon in the last election , I would vote for him tomorrow . Next elections I will vote for him again depending on whether he starts his own party or whether he stays with Likud.... if he stays with Likud then I will vote Shinui .

You seem to think that all those that are against religious Zionists zealots are leftists ..... think again ;)

I suggest that you were not paying attention to what Arik was saying when you voted for him Steve ..... I was :)

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428

[Ophra]

Good, so then you have no reason to flame me and personally attack me for participating in a discussion about the issue. If you don't want to discuss it with me, then don't respond to my posts. It's really that simple.



You started with the flames ... you always do... seems to me it's the only thing you are good at .
Fine .. I won't respond to your posts . I will however report every personal attack you make to sharonb (whilst I am trying to ignore you) as you did yesterday .

[Ophra]

Success in the first test

Israeli democracy this week passed the test of the right-wing march, which ended without achieving its goal. Thousands of demonstrators were unable to reach Gush Katif, and failed in their attempt to undermine the authority of the government, which had decided to close the Gaza Strip. They were stopped at Kfar Maimon after the police and the army successfully encircled them.

The Yesha Council of settlements failed to turn the march into a fulcrum for mass protest against disengagement and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Most of the Israeli public went about its business, seeing in the pictures from Kfar Maimon only the core of the right and the settlers.

The government used its authority to enforce the order limiting entry to the Strip, even if the mission required large forces. The police made good its declaration that demonstrators would be leaving Kfar Maimon "northward only." It should be noted with satisfaction that holding back the march and dispersing the demonstrators was handled relatively calmly. Both sides avoided violent confrontation. The settler leadership did not always keep to agreements it had reached with the police, but most of the march's participants were not dragged into violence.

The settlers' announcement that from now on they would direct their efforts at quietly infiltrating Gush Katif, and the report of hundreds who had already skirted the roadblocks and remained in the closed area, demand suitable measures. Subterfuge must be met by subterfuge to frustrate attempts to create mass disturbances. Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's warning yesterday is also justified: If it turns out that the settlers consider the traditional three-week mourning period between the 17th of Tammuz (this Sunday) and Tisha B'Av suitable for the continuation of their illegal actions, the government can reconsider its decision to delay the disengagement until the conclusion of that period.

At the same time that the settlers' march was being stopped at Kfar Maimon, the Knesset rejected by a large majority a delay in disengagement. The Qassam rockets, which threatened a renewal of fighting with the Palestinians on the eve of the evacuation, was defused by successful military and diplomatic pressure on the Palestinian Authority's leadership, without the IDF having to make good on its threat to open a ground offensive. All these elements provide a convenient backdrop for the arrival of the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who will visit Sharon at his ranch today.

The U.S. administration has placed disengagement at the heart of its Middle East foreign policy, and Rice's third visit to the region is intended to strengthen Sharon and his plan, and move ahead the efforts for successful coordination of the withdrawal with the PA. In the time left before disengagement, the U.S. must bridge the gaps between Israel and the PA regarding control of the land crossings, and the opening of an air and sea port. The U.S. must also encourage PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to continue his struggle against Hamas and to ensure quiet in Gaza during the evacuation.

Israel took important steps this week toward disengagement. Rice's visit at this time illustrates the increasing recognition by the international community that the success of the plan, conceived as unilateral, will create a diplomatic horizon of hope for the future.


Source : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/603302.html

[SteveK]

Steve,

...I suggest that you were not paying attention to what Arik was saying when you voted for him Steve ..... I was :)

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428


Ophra,

So, what should have the religious believed instead when Sharon went to the Temple Mount,- causing such a political storm? Were we to be suspicious of his sincerity in what he seemed to otherwise demonstrate for Jewish heritage and ownership rights?

What was the real intention of Sharon when he literally encouraged and strengthened Jews to settle in the "territories", while your faction openly opposed such settlement?

Why was Sharon the only Prime Minister from the beginning of this suicide pack for "peace", who treated Yassir Arafat as he should have been treated as a filthy animal and target for liquidation, let alone Sharon's active liquidation of these other Arab "diplomats" and "leaders".

Sharon's actions were strongly perceived as his leadership potential to maintain course on a Jewish and Zionist agenda before his rise to power and well into it.

People with whom I have spoken have all been shocked over Sharon's apparent betrayal of his intentions for a Jewish and Zionist agenda, or have been relieved that Sharon is making such concessions for international relations.

I have not spoken to anyone who has claimed that Sharon got into power on a landslide victory by talking to the voters about "painful concessions", or demonizing and sacrificing a group of Jews who have proven themselves to be loyal and productive citizens of The State of Israel. Nobody with whom I have spoken knew a Sharon before his election that we witness today.

Did your Kibbutz boycott the purchases of Gush Katif agricultural products while these fellow Jews were still confident of their establishment of homes and livings from work of a better part of their lives? Yes, they were zealots for God and their country.

The "religious zealots" never spoke about surrender of Jewish lands to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates, as you do.

Sharon never spoke of such surrender,--- until he and his family were under possible criminal convictions,--- of which threats evaporated when he began to be the "leader" that you so cherish.

Ophra, what did you hear from Sharon during his election campaign that the real majority of the voters of whom put him into power didn't hear, and if they had heard such a thing of surrender and ostracizing of any group of Jews, would never have put him into power?

[Ophra]

Ophra,

So, what should have the religious believed instead when Sharon went to the Temple Mount,- causing such a political storm? Were we to be suspicious of his sincerity in what he seemed to otherwise demonstrate for Jewish heritage and ownership rights?

What was the real intention of Sharon when he literally encouraged and strengthened Jews to settle in the "territories", while your faction openly opposed such settlement?

Why was Sharon the only Prime Minister from the beginning of this suicide pack for "peace", who treated Yassir Arafat as he should have been treated as a filthy animal and target for liquidation, let alone Sharon's active liquidation of these other Arab "diplomats" and "leaders".

Sharon's actions were strongly perceived as his leadership potential to maintain course on a Jewish and Zionist agenda before his rise to power and well into it.

People with whom I have spoken have all been shocked over Sharon's apparent betrayal of his intentions for a Jewish and Zionist agenda, or have been relieved that Sharon is making such concessions for international relations.

I have not spoken to anyone who has claimed that Sharon got into power on a landslide victory by talking to the voters about "painful concessions", or demonizing and sacrificing a group of Jews who have proven themselves to be loyal and productive citizens of The State of Israel. Nobody with whom I have spoken knew a Sharon before his election that we witness today.

Did your Kibbutz boycott the purchases of Gush Katif agricultural products while these fellow Jews were still confident of their establishment of homes and livings from work of a better part of their lives? Yes, they were zealots for God and their country.

The "religious zealots" never spoke about surrender of Jewish lands to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates, as you do.

Sharon never spoke of such surrender,--- until he and his family were under possible criminal convictions,--- of which threats evaporated when he began to be the "leader" that you so cherish.

Ophra, what did you hear from Sharon during his election campaign that the real majority of the voters of whom put him into power didn't hear, and if they had heard such a thing of surrender and ostracizing of any group of Jews, would never have put him into power?

Steve ,

I would suggest that if you religious want a religious theocracy to replace our secular democracy that you concentrate your votes on one of the various religious parties.
Voting for Sharon, who is first and foremost a Sabra,an Army General and whose history here was also almost identical to Rabin's and to my father's, was your mistake not mine.

I also suggest that you read here : http://www.likud.org.il/?Sw=800&Sh=600

... and I translate ..
" Peace will be a central aim of Israel's policy. The Government of Israel will conduct direct negotiations with Arab states to reach peace agreements.

Security is the basis for durable peace in our region. Israel will make security a first condition in any peace agreement.

The Government of Israel will honor international agreements, and will continue the diplomatic process to achieve a just and lasting peace in the Middle East. It will recognize the facts created on the ground by the various accords, and will act to reduce the dangers to the future and security of Israel resulting from these agreements.

The Government of Israel will carry out negotiations with the Palestinian Authority to achieve a permanent peace arrangement, on condition that the Palestinians fully honor all their obligations. Most important among these are that the Palestinians annul in an unequivocal manner the clauses in the Palestinian Charter which call for the destruction of Israel, and that they prevent terror and incitement against Israel.

PS ... I answered yours ... are you going to answer this ?????

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428

[SteveK]

Steve ,....

I would suggest that if you religious want a religious theocracy to replace our secular democracy that you concentrate your votes on one of the various religious parties.
Voting for Sharon, who is first and foremost a Sabra,an Army General and whose history here was also almost identical to Rabin's and to my father's, was your mistake not mine.

....

PS ... I answered yours ... are you going to answer this ?????

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428


Ophra,

Sharon went after the religious vote always for his political life. How many times did he visit personally the Lubavitcher Rebbe in Brooklyn, Ovadia Yosef at his home, etc.?

Sharon didn't come into the lives of these religious Jews with such a statement, to para-phrase yours:


"I [Arik Sharon speaking to the religious communities] would suggest that if you religious want a religious theocracy to replace our secular democracy that you concentrate your votes on one of the various religious parties.

Voting for me, being first and foremost a Sabra,an Army General, and with a history here almost identical to Rabin's and to the father of Ophra, who is truly of a secular Zionist blue-blood family here in Israel, would be your mistake."

Sharon got the endorsement of these great Torah leaders. Such political endorsement from such emminent Torah leaders of our generation had great implications for putting him into power. These great holy men wouldn't have made any mistake in supporting Sharon, right? They would have considered the interests of God and Torah,- in light of what the religious Zionists say, right?.

But, in your last post to me you stated:


Ophra:

You [SteveK] seem to think that all those that are against religious Zionists zealots are leftists ..... think again

Sharon was catering to these great Torah sages of our generation who were not Zionists,- right? Might you be suggesting that Sharon found his "Rebbes" to give him a kosher Torah certificate for surrendering Jewish land and doing business with these Arab murders, torturers, and international pirates?

I read that this Yigal Amir who killed Rabin said that it was easier to carry out the murder because of some Rabbinical decrees. Probably I read one of your posts about this.

And, the settlers have their Rebbes to make it all kosher Torah to conduct themselves in ways that you so oppose.

Come to think of it, wasn't it SHAS and its "Council of Torah Sages" that had cast the deciding vote to bring to life the monstrous Oslo suicide pack with these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates?

And what of this statement from your posted website?

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428


Another former chief rabbi with much influence, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has been speaking in whispered tones. Another one, Rabbi Israel Meir Lau, who has his eye on the President's Residence, isn't saying a thing. These two also will be called to task over the unraveling of the covenant between religious Zionism and the state. More seriously, they are to blame for the even more tragic enfeeblement of the foundations on which the national home stands.


There are a whole lot of Torah observant Jews who believe what their Rebbes tell them, and follow their advice. Why would they have been led by their Rebbes to be a decisive voting factor in putting Sharon into power, when they could and should have concentrated their vote, as you suggest, in the religious parties?

Why were such a decisive voting block of Torah leaders and their followers, and circles of influence (including secular Israelis!), so ready and willing to believe in Sharon for a Jewish and Zionist agenda? Why would they have put Sharon into power under the slightest suspicion of his deceiving them?

What kinds of dirty dealings are these religious groups here in Israel pulling off against each other? Both the Zionists and non-Zionists among them?

[Ophra]

Steve,

I don't have a clue about what you are on about .......... Arik is a consummate politician , as long as the end results are what I voted for he will continue to have my support.
However, should he disappoint me I will move on to my next best option...... one thing is for sure... I will not bad mouth him or accuse him of something that is not proven in a court of Law.... nor would I EVER consider shooting him in the back .

PPS ... you still did not answer this :

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428

[redcake]

The fact that I am in the majority, just brush it aside why don't you ? The fact that I support my government , just brush it aside why don't you ?

These two statements confuse me in light of your past statements Ophra. It's hardly convincing.

The majority of Sharon's support weren't aware he would make such a drastic move. He was elected because he was a moderate with a hardline image. You really think the Likkud materials pointed to a Gaza pullout? Does your dog talk to you about politics too ? I mean, that's some heavy between the lines reading you'rs doing, if you actually voted for Sharon, and actually expected Gaza to be free of Jews starting in August. What else is in your crystal ball? Dismantling the Knesset, and a co-Presidency with Abbas? Do tell us oh great soothesayer. Any more assasinations on the horizon, mayhaps ?

I think it's worth agreeing (maybe?) that Sharon was never the hardline extremist the media portrayed him as. He's still far from a Rabin or a Peres.

[Ophra]

These two statements confuse me in light of your past statements Ophra. It's hardly convincing.

The majority of Sharon's support weren't aware he would make such a drastic move. He was elected because he was a moderate with a hardline image. You really think the Likkud materials pointed to a Gaza pullout? Does your dog talk to you about politics too ? I mean, that's some heavy between the lines reading you'rs doing, if you actually voted for Sharon, and actually expected Gaza to be free of Jews starting in August. What else is in your crystal ball? Dismantling the Knesset, and a co-Presidency with Abbas? Do tell us oh great soothesayer. Any more assasinations on the horizon, mayhaps ?

I think it's worth agreeing (maybe?) that Sharon was never the hardline extremist the media portrayed him as. He's still far from a Rabin or a Peres.

Really redcake :rolleyes: ...... care to go right back to my first posts on here and check ????? Please do . Bring on your evidence to support your theory .
From day one on here I have said that I am not a Leftist , I have stated many many times that I voted Likud in the last election.
" The majority of Sharon's support weren't aware he would make such a drastic move. " ..... that's not my problem ... let's just say I know Arik better than they do ;)
" He was elected because he was a moderate with a hardline image. " ... LOL .... what the hell do you think I am ????
" Does your dog talk to you about politics too ? " .. Nope ... but my husband does ... high ranking IDF officer redcake and a great supporter of Sharon .
" Any more assasinations on the horizon, mayhaps ? " ..... that would depend on the religious extreme right ... they have made plenty of threats about doing so as they did with Rabin . Better to ask someone else on here maybe...... I have very little contact with any such people .. the Army leaders are not very popular with them right now :D
" He's still far from a Rabin or a Peres. " ...... not that far ... not if you compare him to the religious extremist right-wing he isn't .... you people seem to forget that Arik and Rabin knew each other very well , served together and were friends. There is more to life than politics redcake.

[SteveK]

Steve,

I don't have a clue about what you are on about .......... Arik is a consummate politician , as long as the end results are what I voted for he will continue to have my support.
However, should he disappoint me I will move on to my next best option...... one thing is for sure... I will not bad mouth him or accuse him of something that is not proven in a court of Law.... nor would I EVER consider shooting him in the back .

PPS ... you still did not answer this :

Care to respond to this post Steve ? : ........
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8428



Ophra,

Your forum line below your posts has me worried, the last line about "Murdered by an Orthodox Jew".:


"Peace has no borders."
~ Yitzhak Rabin (1922-1997)
Israeli statesman, prime minister, armed forces chief of staff, Nobel Peace Prize winner
Murdered by an orthodox Jew.

I am taking into consideration quite seriously these two other statements made in your posts:



" Does your dog talk to you about politics too ? " .. Nope ... but my husband does ... high ranking IDF officer redcake and a great supporter of Sharon .

" The majority of Sharon's support weren't aware he would make such a drastic move. " ..... that's not my problem ... let's just say I know Arik better than they do


Is it proper for the wife of a high ranking Israeli army officer to be making the kinds of statements that you make on this forum inciting against the religious communities here in Israel? Your post trailer of "Murdered by an Orthodox Jew" is just the tip of the iceberg for your vicious slander against the religious communities. I can understand frustration, and some animosities, but you are getting me convinced that you have a diseased hatred in you for religious Jews who you have turned into scapegoats for the fact that Israel is surrendering to the Arabs. Why can't you express such hatreds and vindications against these Arab Muslim murderers, torturers, and international pirates? You have relished with glee the prospect of these religious Jews being expelled from their homes and their livelihoods shut down after their devoted work for a better part of their lifetimes.

If you are so close to the inner circles of Israeli power, as you imply with your high ranking army officer husband, and "knowing Arik better than most", then I am starting to get nauseated at the prospect that you might just be a window to us on the forum about some very sick goings on in some very high places in the Israeli government,--- or then again just a person who has some very serious personal problems,--- or both.

During the fiasco of Watergate with former President Richard Nixon, his attorney general John Mitchell had a rather emotionally unstable wife by the name of Martha. She was a considerable source of embarrassment to her very high ranking husband in the U.S. government. She blabbed to the press about some very confidential and incriminating things going on in very high places of the U.S. government,- those places going straight into the White House.

Here is a little blurb about Martha Mitchell:


... Things began to fall apart for Martha when the Watergate scandal exploded in October, 1972. The Washington Post reported that her husband, John, had authorized $250,000 to pay for bail and to hush up the Watergate burglars. Martha was apoplectic, believing the White house was using her husband as a scapegoat to protect Richard Nixon. Martha called Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, the two young reporters at the Post, to make her case that John was nothing but a puppet being manipulated by Nixon. Then she began to call other reporters, sometimes in the middle of the night. John Mitchell knew of his wife’s shenanigans, and at first defended her, accusing the press of exploiting a naïve Southern girl. Soon Nixon was on his case, however, and John reportedly went so far as to lock Martha in a closet to keep her from phoning the press.


White House tapes reveal that Nixon, while angry at Martha, didn’t feel there was much he could do to control her. The White House did, however, leak information on Martha’s alleged drinking problem. A great strain had been put on the Mitchell marriage, and by 1973, John Mitchell had had it with his unstable wife. He walked out of their Washington apartment, refusing to speak to Martha except through his lawyer. The breakup was exceedingly bitter; when Mitchell was sentenced for his Watergate crimes in February 1975, he said, “It could have been worse. They could have sentenced me to spend the rest of my life with Martha Mitchell.”


Does your high ranking army officer husband know and approve of how you carry on here with such vindictive hatreds against fellow Jews?

Does "Arik" know and approve?

Maybe some exemplary posts of yours should be sent over to the Ministry of Defence and the Prime Minister's office. Maybe you need to be checked out for incitement. Certainly, our national leaders would be appalled by your rantings and ravings here against fellow Jews, and your gleefullness over the surrender of Jewish land to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates. You are obviously not seeking any integration of the religious communities in your grand thinking. You want these Jews out of sight and of mind, and God only knows, probably out of Israel too.

What are you going to do the day of the expulsion of Jews from their God given land by a Jewish leadership,--- pass out candies on the street like those Arab Muslim animals do after each suicide bombing and murder of Jews?

[redcake]

Really redcake :rolleyes: ...... care to go right back to my first posts on here and check ?????


Why bother when I could just spam the forum with a bunch of unsourced op-ed pieces instead? My memory serves me well enough to know you're full of inconsistancies. None of it adds up. Your politics or your personal boasts.

If your husband were privy to any classified information, his wife wouldn't have the ability to hint towards it on the interent. Should I brag about how I know this? Let's just say you don't have to be high up in the IDF to have your letters edited with a black marker. Nobody's impressed here, and it doesn't add the sanity that's so sorely lacking in your arguments.

[Ophra]

I'm just answering your posts and questions that you put to me Steve :)
...........


Your forum line below your posts has me worried, the last line about "Murdered by an Orthodox Jew".:
Kindly refer to here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir


.......... blah blah blah
...... What ? I'm not allowed to debate and defend my State, my Government , and our democratically elected Prime Minister ????
No "inciting against the religious communities here in Israel" coming from me Steve .... just plain facts and the truth and nothing that is not already in the public domain. Nope ... no hate either ... I'm just against extremism of any kind .
I don't have any hatred for the Arabs either Steve ..... I just want Peace . So does Sharon . So do the majority of Israelis.

It is my opinion that you are more than a little paranoid Steve .


Does your high ranking army officer husband know and approve of how you carry on here
Yup .... he reads the forums too Steve .


Maybe some exemplary posts of yours should be sent over to the Ministry of Defence and the Prime Minister's office. Maybe you need to be checked out for incitement. Certainly, our national leaders would be appalled by your rantings and ravings here against fellow Jews, and your gleefullness over the surrender of Jewish land to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates. You are obviously not seeking any integration of the religious communities in your grand thinking. You want these Jews out of sight and of mind, and God only knows, probably out of Israel too.
Go ahead ..... I'm sure they will smile at how much you seem to want Peace with our neighbours ;)

[Ophra]

Why bother when I could just spam the forum with a bunch of unsourced op-ed pieces instead? My memory serves me well enough to know you're full of inconsistancies. None of it adds up. Your politics or your personal boasts.

If your husband were privy to any classified information, his wife wouldn't have the ability to hint towards it on the interent. Should I brag about how I know this? Let's just say you don't have to be high up in the IDF to have your letters edited with a black marker. Nobody's impressed here, and it doesn't add the sanity that's so sorely lacking in your arguments.

Guess youre not a secular Sabra then ... eh redcake ? ;) :D

[redcake]

Guess youre not a secular Sabra then ... eh redcake ? ;) :D

Neither is Sharon. Grow up.

[Ophra]

Neither is Sharon. Grow up.

He's not ??????? :eek: :confused: ROFL .

Here is what one of your own had to say .... way way back in February 24, 2003.... enjoy reading it redcake.... it gave us all much amusement over here ;)

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/2010.htm

[redcake]

What's my kind? Jewish ? Then what's your kind....B.S. artist ?

If the Left got Sharon elected it was because even they were scared to continue down the road of appeasement... and yes they hoped that Sharon would compensate for his image, and find a middle ground while trying to make everyone happy in the inclusive government he promised. You have to be an absolute moron to think the Left voted Sharon in based on some secret knowledge that only you and your IDF husband (or was it your talking dog?) happen to be aware of.

The article made a few wild predictions. Sharon's still in office.

p.s. you support Sharon the way Arafat wanted peace.

[Ophra]

What's my kind? Jewish ? Then what's your kind....B.S. artist ?

If the Left got Sharon elected it was because even they were scared to continue down the road of appeasement... and yes they hoped that Sharon would compensate for his image, and find a middle ground while trying to make everyone happy in the inclusive government he promised. You have to be an absolute moron to think the Left voted Sharon in based on some secret knowledge that only you and your IDF husband (or was it your talking dog?) happen to be aware of.

The article made a few wild predictions. Sharon's still in office.

p.s. you support Sharon the way Arafat wanted peace.

That article is a load of old baloney .... as is Manhigut Yehudit and all of the religious extreme right parties ... as are you redcake.

I support Arik Sharon's policies and those of Shinui's ..... as do the majority of Israelis .

There was no "secret knowledge" redcake ... boy do you religious love to twist everything ;) ..... if the racist idiots at Manhigut Yehudit could work it out why couldn't you and Steve ??? :D

[redcake]

I support Sharon.
I support the Gaza pullout*
And FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not Orthodox, so stop reffering to me as "You Religious".
I'm very clear about this.

So please, LEARN SOME SELF CONTROL, and stop acting donkey.


*(for the most part, with GREAT reservation, and a deep understanding of why someone would oppose it.)

[Ophra]

I support Sharon.
I support the Gaza pullout*
And FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not Orthodox, so stop reffering to me as "You Religious".
I'm very clear about this.

So please, LEARN SOME SELF CONTROL, and stop acting donkey.


*(for the most part, with GREAT reservation, and a deep understanding of why someone would oppose it.)

I'm an atheist ...... you don't have to be Orthodox to be religious ;)

If you support Sharon and the disengagement .... then what are you making all this fuss over ???????
Seems to me , if that is truly the case :confused: .... then you were just making an awful lot of noise for nothing ..... seeing how you butted in on my conversation with Steve I would say you should learn some self control and start trusting what people are saying ..... in other words you should stop acting like a donkey ;)

[redcake]

Stick to PM's if you want a private conversation, this isn't even your thread....but you're right though... you're no donkey... you're a full on jackass. Didn't you equate Sharon's policies, and goals to that of Rabin's and claim that this was the clear reasoning why the Left, and other "peaceniks" supported him?

Also - You don't have to be an Athiest to be Secular.

[Ophra]

Stick to PM's if you want a private conversation, this isn't even your thread....but you're right though... you're no donkey... you're a full on jackass. Didn't you equate Sharon's policies, and goals to that of Rabin's and claim that this was the clear reasoning why the Left, and other "peaceniks" supported him?

Also - You don't have to be an Athiest to be Secular.

Thanks but no thanks.... I never wanted this twisted conversation in the first place .... you started it with your false accusations ( you sure you are not religious ? :D )

"" Didn't you equate Sharon's policies, and goals to that of Rabin's and claim that this was the clear reasoning why the Left, and other "peaceniks" supported him? ""

I will answer the above when you bring up the thread you are referring to ... if you can ;) ... I am not going to answer anything out of context .

"" You don't have to be an Athiest to be Secular ""

True that .... but atheist,secular,religious or Orthodox.... you do have to live in Israel to be an Israeli and to vote .... not in NYC .... so whatever your opinion redcake, it's just your opinion .... until you come home and live like the rest of us do then nothing you have to say holds water with me and mine .

[redcake]

Maybe your next post should just say "hee haw hee haw" instead.


you do have to live in Israel to be an Israeli and to vote .... not in NYC

Be as self righteous as you'd like... but the above statement is incorrect. It's called dual citizenship.

[Ophra]

Maybe your next post should just say "hee haw hee haw" instead.



Be as self righteous as you'd like... but the above statement is incorrect. It's called dual citizenship.

Where I come from it's called the coward's option...... but use any excuse you like redcake , whatever keeps you happy ;)
PS .. you still don't get to vote .... will we be seeing you here next elections ??????????????...... it's going to be very very interesting this time around .

[Ophra]

Anybody who is interested about the Disengagement and what is happenning now in Israel ....and what could possibly happen in the near future... should read this very good article from the Jerusalem Post :

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1121912429129&apage=1

Right on the button ...in my humble opinion ;)

[SteveK]

Yup .... he [Ophra's high ranking IDF officer husband] reads the forums too Steve .




Ophra,

That your husband, the high ranking IDF officer reads your posts and obviously approves of them,- perhaps even helps you write them with his inside information,- afterall you do want to be factual in convincingly biased and slanted ways in your presentation,- leaves me very troubled. I'm sure that your high ranking IDF officer husband would know quite a bit about propaganda and its effective use. Afterall, I'm sure that the IDF must know about the effective use of psychological warfare. This fact may have been mentioned before by you about your high ranking IDF officer husband, but I just made some connections now to the severity of the implications given what you have been saying on this forum. Being "anonymous" about it has absolutely no relevance here.

I am still personally shocked enough over Sharon's twisted directions for Israel, when I had every confidence that he had the mind, heart, and guts to lead the nation on a rational approach without sacrificing a Jewish and Zionist agenda,and in fact enhance it.

I remember well the episode with U.S. President Richard Nixon. I remember his arrogant top aids and their literal ridicule of American democracy when they were under investigation with the televised Senate sub-committee on Watergate. And, I remember the blabbering wife Martha Mitchell of the attorney general under Nixon, who, in her delerious ways, was telling the American people more about the corruption and dementia in the inner circles of American power, than the journalists could ever have hoped to uncover.

I think you are a window into this same slimeball reality for the inner circle of Israeli power, as was Martha Mitchell into that slimeball reality of the American Government at the time of Richard Nixon.

And,to make my dilemma now even more pronounced is that ironically I still don't believe for a moment that Arik Sharon is such a slimeball, though he is certainly surrounded and pressured by such slimeballs to the point that he has certainly become extremely doubtful about his great potential for leadership, which had put him into power in a landslide victory by the real majority of the Israeli People,- for a Jewish and Zionist agenda. He was the best candidate at the right time to extricate us from the living hell which Rabin, Peres, Barak, and even Bibi had put us into.

I must think about it for a few days. I would feel much better if I could call you sick in the head and leave it at that and put you on ignore. But, I believe that you are presenting yourself in a sincere way, and that you have your agenda very much together, and that is making me sick,- very sick inside,and I must pay attention to what you are uncovering about the Israeli Government, and perhaps even the probability that such slimeballs are making Arik Sharon into their puppet.

I have always lived with the policy that just because I'm paranoid,- doesn't mean the world is not out to get me, or the other citizens of The State of Israel who are the real majority for a Jewish and Zionist agenda, and not for surrender to the Arabs. That real majority put Arik Sharon into power because he showed that leadership potential to achieve this mission,- and not the slimeball crowd, for surrender to the Arabs, with whom you and your high ranking IDF officer husband, apparently, at least, hang out.

[Ophra]

Steve moteck ,

I'm not going to respond to your paranoid rubbish, suffice to say you are beginning to sound like Barry Chamish .... next we will be getting prophecies thrown at us ..and the last UFO sightings over the Knesset :D .

Arik Sharon is nobodies puppet Steve ..... I suggest you read the below :

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Address to the Knesset
Prior to the Vote on the Disengagement Plan
(October 25, 2004)

Mr. Speaker, Members of Knesset,
This is a fateful hour for Israel. We are on threshold of a difficult decision, the likes of which we have seldom faced, the significance of which for the future of our country in this region is consistent with the difficulty, pain and dispute it arouses within us. You know that I do not say these things with a light heart to the representatives of the nation and to the entire nation watching and listening to every word uttered here in the Knesset today. This is a people who has courageously faced, and still faces the burden and terror of the ongoing war, which has continued from generation to generation; in which, as in a relay race, fathers pass the guns to their sons; in which the boundary between the frontline and the home front has long been erased; in which schools and hotels, restaurants and marketplaces, cafes and buses have also become targets for cruel terror and premeditated murder.

Today, this nation wants to know what decision this house will make at the end of this stormy discussion. What will we say to them, and what message will we convey to them? For me, this decision is unbearably difficult. During my years as a fighter and commander, as a politician, Member of Knesset, as a minister in Israel’s governments and as Prime Minister, I have never faced so difficult a decision.

I know the implications and impact of the Knesset’s decision on the lives of thousands of Israelis who have lived in the Gaza Strip for many years, who were sent there on behalf of the Governments of Israel, and who built homes there, planted trees and grew flowers, and who gave birth to sons and daughters, who have not known any other home. I am well aware of the fact that I sent them and took part in this enterprise, and many of these people are my personal friends. I am well aware of their pain, rage and despair. However, as much as I understand everything they are going through during these days and everything they will face as a result of the necessary decision to be made in the Knesset today, I also believe in the necessity of taking the step of disengagement in these areas, with all the pain it entails, and I am determined to complete this mission. I am firmly convinced and truly believe that this disengagement will strengthen Israel’s hold over territory which is essential to our existence, and will be welcomed and appreciated by those near and far, reduce animosity, break through boycotts and sieges and advance us along the path of peace with the Palestinians and our other neighbors.

I am accused of deceiving the people and the voters because I am taking steps which are in total opposition to past things I have said and deeds I have done. This is a false accusation. Both during the elections and as Prime Minister, I have repeatedly and publicly said that I support the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel. I have repeatedly and openly said that I am willing to make painful compromises in order to put an end to this ongoing and malignant conflict between those who struggle over this land, and that I would do my utmost in order to bring peace.

And I wish, Mr. Chairman, to say that many years before, in 1988, in a meeting with Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir and with the Ministers of the Likud, I said there that I believe that if we do not want to be pushed back to the 1967 lines, the territory should be divided.

As one who fought in all of Israel’s wars, and learned from personal experience that without proper force, we do not have a chance of surviving in this region, which does not show mercy towards the weak, I have also have learned from experience that the sword alone cannot decide this bitter dispute in this land.

I have been told that the disengagement will be interpreted as a shameful withdrawal under pressure, and will increase the terror campaign, present Israel as weak, and will show our people as a nation unwilling to fight and to stand up for itself. I reject that statement outright. We have the strength to defend this country, and to strike at the enemy which seeks to destroy us.

And there are those who tell me that, in exchange for a genuine signed peace agreement, they too would be willing to make these painful compromises. However, regrettably, we do not have a partner on the other side with whom to conduct genuine dialogue, in order to achieve a peace agreement. Even prime ministers of Israel who declared their willingness to relinquish the maximum territory of our homeland were answered with fire and hostility. Recently, the chairman of the Palestinian Authority declared that “a million shaheeds will break through to Jerusalem”. In the choice between a responsible and wise action in history, which may lead to painful compromise and a “holy war” to destroy Israel, Yasser Arafat chose the latter – the path of blood, fire and shaheeds. He seeks to turn a national conflict which can be terminated through mutual understanding into a religious war between Islam and Jews, and even to spill the blood of Jews who live far away.

Israel has many hopes, and faces extreme dangers. The most prominent danger is Iran, which is making every effort to acquire nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, and establishing an enormous terror network together with Syria in Lebanon.

And I ask you: what are we doing and what are we struggling over in the face of these terrible dangers? Are we not capable of uniting to meet this threat? This is the true question.

The Disengagement Plan does not replace negotiations and is not meant to permanently freeze the situation which will be created. It is an essential and necessary step in a situation which currently does not enable genuine negotiations for peace. However, everything remains open for a future agreement, which will hopefully be achieved when this murderous terror ends, and our neighbors will realize that they cannot triumph over us in this land.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I will read several lines from a famous essay which was published in the midst of the Arab Revolt of 1936 – and we must bear in mind that the Jewish community in Israel numbered less than 400,000. This essay by Moshe Beilinson was published in “Davar”, as I mentioned, during the murderous Arab Revolt of 1936 (and I quote): “How much longer? People ask. How much longer? Until the strength of Israel in its land will condemn and defeat in advance any enemy attack; until the most enthusiastic and bold in any enemy camp will know; there are no means to break the strength of Israel in its land, because the necessity of life is with it, and the truth of life is with it, and there is no other way but to accept it. This is the essence of this campaign.”

I am convinced that everything we have done since then confirms these emphatic words.

We have no desire to permanently rule over millions of Palestinians, who double their numbers every generation. Israel, which wishes to be an exemplary democracy, will not be able to bear such a reality over time. The Disengagement Plan presents the possibility of opening a gate to a different reality.

Today, I wish to address our Arab neighbors. Already in our Declaration of Independence, in the midst of a cruel war, Israel, which was born in blood, extended its hand in peace to those who fought against it and sought to destroy it by force (and I quote): “We appeal – in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months – to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.”

A long time has passed since then. This land and this region have known more wars, and have known all the wars between the wars, terror and the difficult counter-actions undertaken by Israel, with the sole purpose of defending the lives of its citizens. In this ongoing war, many among the civilian population, among the innocent, were killed. And tears met tears. I would like you to know that we did not seek to build our lives in this homeland on your ruins. Many years ago, Zeev Jabotinsky wrote in a poem his vision for partnership and peace among the peoples of this land (and I quote): “There he will be saturated with plenty and joy, the son of the Arab, the son of Nazareth and my son.”

continued .....

[Ophra]

........

We were attacked and stood firm, with our backs to the sea. Many fell in the battle, and many lost their homes and fields and orchards, and became refugees. This is the way of war. However, war is not inevitable and predestined. Even today, we regret the loss of innocent lives in your midst. Our way is not one of intentional killing.

Forty-eight yeas ago, on the eve of our Independence Day in 1956, against the background of the return of the bodies of ten terrorists who committed crimes in Israel, murderous acts in Israel, and who were delivered in wooden coffins to the Egyptians at a border crossing in the Gaza Strip. On this, the Hebrew poet, Natan Alterman wrote the following:

“Arabia, enemy unknown to you, you will awake when you rise against me, My life serves as witness with my back against the wall and to my history and my G-d, Enemy, the power of whose rage in the face of those who rise to destroy him until the day Will be similar only to the force of his brotherhood in a fraternal covenant between one nation and another.”

This was during the time of the terrorist killings and our retaliatory raids.

Members of Knesset,
With your permission, I wish to end with a quotation from Prime Minister Menahem Begin, who at the end of December 1977, said on this podium (and I quote):

“Where does this irresponsible language come from, in addition to other things which were said? I once said, during an argument with people from Gush Emunim, that I love them today, and will continue to like them tomorrow. I told them: you are wonderful pioneers, builders of the land, settlers on barren soil, in rain and through winter, through all difficulties. However, you have one weakness – you have developed among yourselves a messianic complex.

You must remember that there were days, before you were born or were only small children, when other people risked their lives day and night, worked and toiled, made sacrifices and performed their tasks without a hint of a messianic complex. And I call on you today, my good friends from Gush Emunim, to perform your tasks with no less modesty than your predecessors, on other days and nights.

We do not require anyone to supervise the Kashrut of our commitment to the Land of Israel! We have dedicated our lives to the land of Israel and to the struggle for its liberation, and will continue to do so.”

I call on the people of Israel to unite at this decisive hour. We must find a common denominator for some form of “necessary unity” which will enable us to cope with these fateful days with understanding, and through our common destiny, and which will allow us to construct a dam against brotherly hatred which pushes many over the edge. We have already paid an unbearably high price for murderous fanaticism. We must find the root which brings us all together, and must carry out our actions with the wisdom and responsibility which allow us to lead our lives here as a mature and experienced nation. I call on you to support me at this decisive time.

Thank you.

Source: http://www.knesset.gov.il/allsite/QGenTxt_eng.asp

[Ophra]

Where I come from it's called the coward's option...... but use any excuse you like redcake , whatever keeps you happy ;)
PS .. you still don't get to vote .... will we be seeing you here next elections ??????????????...... it's going to be very very interesting this time around .

Yo redcake .... I thought you and Steve and orange loving Gilgamesh would really appreciate this article :D

Get ready for the mother of all elections

If Ariel Sharon didn't exist, we'd have to invent him. He sits there like a Buddha, in girth and facial expression, as his political buddies and settler friends curse and swear at him. They regard him as a traitor to the cause, as they man the barricades and wave the banner of rebellion against unilateral disengagement from Gaza.

But the scarier the threats, the less his facial muscles move. His response is a mute one, calling to mind General de Gaulle's "je vous ai compris" - "I understood you" - to the settlers in Algeria. He understood them, but he did the opposite of what they thought he understood.

It took the settlers and the fanatics some time for it to sink in that the greatest illusionist in the land really meant what he said this time. After Ben-Gurion in 1949 and Yitzhak Rabin in 1993, Sharon is the third prime minister to grasp that there is no escape from dividing the country - in this case, a moment before Israel finds itself with an Arab majority and the clock runs out.

After the invasion of Iraq and the fall of the Twin Towers, Sharon realized that the world is no longer willing to accept land grabs and one nation controlling another. He and Bush have found a common language about what needs to be done and what is expected of him.

"Gaza is not the land of our forefathers, and we have no business there," Sharon said. But it soon dawned on his friends, the Zambish-clones and Yesha chiefs, that this move is a Pandora's box. They realized that Sharon is evacuating Gush Katif, but he means Judea and Samaria, that agreeing to establish a Palestinian state on land that is mostly in our hands is another way of saying: bye-bye Greater Land of Israel. Sharon's initiative does indeed end the status quo, and it is clearly not a one-shot deal.

Fanatics of all stripes - rabbis, messianists, believers in Jabotinsky's vision of a state on both banks of the Jordan - have found an excuse for mutiny. Sharon has betrayed them, and he will pay. But when they shout about Jews expelling Jews from Gush Katif, the personal fate of these people matters to them like the snows of yesteryear. They want to create a situation where, financial and other perks aside, the whole country writhes in pain. That way they think the evacuation of settlements will not continue.

In telegraphic code, the explanation for Sharon's about-face would read: We had a dream. We couldn't make it happen. The messianists accept the dream but not its demise. All the talk of a clash of civilizations, a global war on Islamic terror, the threat of mega-attacks and maybe someday nuclear attacks - none of this makes an impression on the fanatics or the ultra-Orthodox settlers and their rabbis. What they understand is that from August, they will be living in a different Israel.

"Israel leaves Gaza to build Israel," goes the slogan that will star in the battle for public opinion. The Yesha camp, a minority in Israel, is seeking in the name of God, the Messiah and other patron saints, to undermine the authority of the state in a campaign of terror and intimidation.

For the moment, however, plans to inundate Gush Katif with tens of thousands of demonstrators have been nipped in the bud by a massive deployment of policemen plucked from every hill and dale. (I was personally gratified to see on the screen a certain traffic cop who is very quick to hand out tickets in my neighborhood, defending democracy in the boiling heat over in Kfar Maimon.)

However you look at it, the demonstrators have lost the first round. But they are sure to be back - again and again. Because their goal is to drive the country crazy, shake the foundations of democracy and diminish the motivation of our soldiers and policemen.

After Gush Katif is evacuated - and it will be - the settlers will shift their defiance and provocation to the territories and the center of the country. For that reason, Sharon's next move will, and must be, an immediate call for early elections, in order to reshuffle the cards in the political arena. The majority of Israelis want this country to remain a democracy, and the army and police force are not going to be stopped by a handful of Land of Israel loonies.

After the disengagement begins and the first four settlements in Samaria are evacuated, Sharon may veer rightward to get reelected. But once the elections are out of the way, he will forge ahead on the road map and sock it to the fanatics who are challenging the state's authority with an even greater majority behind him. Get ready for the mother of all elections.

Source :http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/603301.html

[redcake]

Yo redcake ....

Get ready for the mother of all elections

In telegraphic code, the explanation for Sharon's about-face would read: We had a dream. We couldn't make it happen.

Any Jew who would say "We had a dream, we couldn't make it happen." never really had the dream in the first place. Unfortunately, you seem to think "the dream" validates all the conspiracy theories and libels against Zionism. Until you can accept all Jews and their birth right, you're an enemy of our people, and the Jewish nation. Wether you blame observant Jews, or disapora Jews, it's not one group, or another, and any logic which tells you otherwise stems from a hate far from relevant to the issue.

Finally - Nobody here should be debating a flood of opinion pieces from Haaretz. If you can't articulate a stance on your own, then there's really no sense in you being here.

[Ophra]

Any Jew who would say "We had a dream, we couldn't make it happen." never really had the dream in the first place. Unfortunately, you seem to think "the dream" validates all the conspiracy theories and libels against Zionism. Until you can accept all Jews and their birth right, you're an enemy of our people, and the Jewish nation. Wether you blame observant Jews, or disapora Jews, it's not one group, or another, and any logic which tells you otherwise stems from a hate far from relevant to the issue.
I'm an Israeli redcake, born and bred for three generations .... I am not a Zionist and I have no wish for a Greater Israel ... I do not wish to accept all Jews, especially any more of the messianic madmen that threaten not only the stability of my country but also the stability of the Middle East and of the world.


Finally - Nobody here should be debating a flood of opinion pieces from Haaretz. If you can't articulate a stance on your own, then there's really no sense in you being here.
Why not ??? Haaretz is a well established respected Israeli newspaper,what do you prefer ... Arutz 7 ?? Or the New York Times ;)
What's the sense in you being here redcake, it's an Israeli forum is it not ? Oops,sorry ... I should have said there :D

[redcake]

there are plenty of seperatist Anti-Zionist boards you can visit but Israel Forum was founded by an American Jew, and hosts particpation from a diverse group, worldwide. If you're only point is Diaspora, and Religious Jews are bad, bad, bad, we've read it ad naseum, you can move on.

...but it doesn't matter where you cut and paste these articles from, it's still a bullish, lazy substitute for your own arguments. Do you have anything more to offer to this conversation then clippings and cryptic references?

[Ophra]

Do you have anything more to offer to this conversation then clippings and cryptic references?

Yes sure , would be my pleasure ... have you read the latest breaking news today ????
Here : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3118275,00.html

[Mediocrates]

I'm an Israeli redcake, born and bred for three generations .... I am not a Zionist and I have no wish for a Greater Israel ... I do not wish to accept all Jews, especially any more of the messianic madmen that threaten not only the stability of my country but also the stability of the Middle East and of the world.


Do you support the various divestment activities going on around the world aimed at Israel? Do you support the UN agenda focused against Israel? Do you support agendizes academic 'initiatives' aimed at criminalizing Israel. Yes Yes I understand all of those things are not at the tip of your own nose and therefore irrelevant to you. All the same I was honestly wondering if you supported them?

[Ophra]

Do you support the various divestment activities going on around the world aimed at Israel? Do you support the UN agenda focused against Israel? Do you support agendizes academic 'initiatives' aimed at criminalizing Israel. Yes Yes I understand all of those things are not at the tip of your own nose and therefore irrelevant to you. All the same I was honestly wondering if you supported them?

Honestly Medio... no I do not support them.
I am a conservative .... I am also an Army daughter, wife and mother ... the most important thing on my agenda is security and hopefully Peace ... so that I don't have to be an Army grandmother to :)

[SteveK]

Steve moteck ,

I'm not going to respond to your paranoid rubbish, suffice to say you are beginning to sound like Barry Chamish .... next we will be getting prophecies thrown at us ..and the last UFO sightings over the Knesset :D .
....

Arik Sharon is nobodies puppet Steve ..... I suggest you read the below :



Ophra,

Arik Sharon better look up some words of a really great Israeli leader to include in his speeches, and one who had a really big "Messianic complex",- King David:


Psalms 83:

"... They [the nations] said, 'Come, let us cut them [us] off from nationhood, so Israel's name will not be remembered any more ..."

Commentary: Jewish nationhood is predicated upon reliance on God rather than reliance upon political, economic, and military dictates,--- all in all:
not surrender to the whims of the other nations.



By the way, I knew that you were an atheist, an Israeli (not a Jew), a pedigree Israeli "army brat" , a wife (to a high ranking IDF officer), a mother, and a Kibbutz member. But, now, NOT A ZIONIST too ???????



Originally Posted by Ophra

I'm an Israeli redcake, born and bred for three generations .... I am not a Zionist and I have no wish for a Greater Israel ... I do not wish to accept all Jews, especially any more of the messianic madmen that threaten not only the stability of my country but also the stability of the Middle East and of the world.

And, let me make an inference from your statements that because a Zionist (not just a messianic madman) has, by your definition, a wish for a Greater Israel, then that threatens the stability of the Middle East and of the world????

[redcake]

Yes sure , would be my pleasure ... have you read the latest breaking news today ????
Here : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3118275,00.html


You already made a thread where you cut and pasted this article.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

And, let me make an inference from your statements that because a Zionist (not just a messianic madman) has, by your definition, a wish for a Greater Israel, then that threatens the stability of the Middle East and of the world????

Yes Steve, I am convinced that they do, at least that the extremists among you do .... you see I listen to Avi Dichter and he has had much to say on this issue since he retired as head of the Shin Bet . He is thinking about going into politics next year.... I hope that he does.

[Ophra]

You already made a thread where you cut and pasted this article.

Why do I threaten you so much redcake ? You seem desperate to get rid of me ..... can't you handle the truth ????????
It's just the internet :confused: .... you don't have to read my articles .

[redcake]

Just cut down on the spam, and stop with the elaborate scenarios.

[Ophra]

Just cut down on the spam, and stop with the elaborate scenarios.

Who made you Boss ?? :D

[SteveK]

Yes Steve, I am convinced that they [Zionists] do, at least that the extremists among you do .... you see I listen to Avi Dichter and he has had much to say on this issue since he retired as head of the Shin Bet . He is thinking about going into politics next year.... I hope that he does.


Ophra,

So, we scratch off your vocabulary list "JEW", and now "ZIONIST" too.

When will "MAGEN DAVID" also be stricken from your approved vocabulary list, and removed from the Israeli flag by you?

I suppose that you justify the naming of "Israel", from our Patriarch Jacob, as being not from the God given Biblical accounts, but akin to the history of Cecil Rhodes and the naming of Rhodesia.

Or, are you now thinking up ways to rename Israel and re-write Jewish history beginning with a sequence of letters like: "IS(R)(HM)AEL" ?

Yes, you are a window into the Israeli Government's great confusion stemming from a leadership with a severe identity crisis.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

So, we scratch off your vocabulary list "JEW", and now "ZIONIST" too.

When will "MAGEN DAVID" also be stricken from your approved vocabulary list, and removed from the Israeli flag by you?

I suppose that you justify the naming of "Israel", from our Patriarch Jacob, as being not from the God given Biblical accounts, but akin to the history of Cecil Rhodes and the naming of Rhodesia.

Or, are you now thinking up ways to rename Israel and re-write Jewish history beginning with a sequence of letters like: "IS(R)(HM)AEL" ?

Yes, you are a window into the Israeli Government's great confusion stemming from a leadership with a severe identity crisis.

*sigh* .... Steve, this forum is not about me ... stop making things so personal .... debate the issue under discussion and stop preaching at me ...I'm not interested in your Religious Zionism and neither are most Israeli's .... you should know that by now ... go do a survey at your local shopping mall if you don't believe me .... the average Israeli will completely reject you or will burst out laughing.

[SteveK]

*sigh* .... Steve, this forum is not about me ... stop making things so personal .... debate the issue under discussion and stop preaching at me ...I'm not interested in your Religious Zionism and neither are most Israeli's .... you should know that by now ... go do a survey at your local shopping mall if you don't believe me .... the average Israeli will completely reject you or will burst out laughing.

Ophra,

You have splattered all over the forum the "YOU". YOU are the only real Israeli here as YOU have repeatedly said. YOU are third generation Israeli from a royal Israeli military dynasty as YOU drill into our heads. YOU know "Arik" better than most with YOUR husband as a high ranking IDF officer.

Obviously, YOU are above the issues, Ophra. YOU are one qualified to create the issues. YOU are THE issue.

[redcake]

For once Steve isn't preaching his Religious Zionism... he brings up some good points, and he's speaking out of general concern, to flat out shock for what he's hearing. You're the one speaking of some cryptic secret knowledge in order to support your zany Anti-Zionisism + Pro-Israel platform. You're starting to sound a lot like Michael Lerner, and the others who proclaim such devotion for Israel as they scream that it must be dismantled piece by piece. Israel was founded as a Jewish state, under great hardship.... can we agree on that? Then where is the sense of someone proclaiming to support Israel, while being Anti-Jewish, and Anti-Zionist ? That's certainly not Sharon's model.

[SteveK]

For once Steve isn't preaching his Religious Zionism... he brings up some good points, and he's speaking out of general concern, to flat out shock for what he's hearing. You're the one speaking of some cryptic secret knowledge in order to support your zany Anti-Zionisism + Pro-Israel platform. You're starting to sound a lot like Michael Lerner, and the others who proclaim such devotion for Israel as they scream that it must be dismantled piece by piece. Israel was founded as a Jewish state, under great hardship.... can we agree on that? Then where is the sense of someone proclaiming to support Israel, while being Anti-Jewish, and Anti-Zionist ? That's certainly not Sharon's model.


redcake,

It's not Sharon's model at all. It never was to be anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist. I am convinced that those Israelis like Ophra have turned Arik Sharon into nothing more than their vegetable head of the Israeli government.
Ophra knows something about raising vegetables from her Kibbutz life.
Just throw enough $hit on them and they will grow how you want.

Sharon has super tough resolve and is a functional tank and bulldozer.
That vermin Arafat lost his credibility because Sharon shoved him into the doghouse where he belonged, and didn't prissy him up with a diplomatic face as did the slimeballs with their seditious fanatical extremist, and not to mention lust for their own financial benefits like casinos, pursuit of surrender to these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

Sharon came to power with the right intentions for a Jewish and Zionist agenda, but the slimeballs got him to skid over into their lane, while retaining his dynamic functionality.

The slimeballs need Sharon's credibility to effect this disaster of "disengagement" for their greedy self-aggrandizing agendas.


Sharon spent his career as an underdog and workhorse. He never had the opportunity to be groomed for national leadership, and grow into the confidence needed to actualize on his great potential. These slimeballs were already Israeli establishment, and knew how to subvert such a man who had otherwise the mind, heart, and guts to extricate Israel from the hell hole created by this seditious suicide-pact of peace with these filthy Arab Muslim murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

Ophra knows only techniques of propaganda and psychological warfare. She has a good consultant too with her high ranking IDF officer husband.
Her latest revelation of not being a "ZIONIST" because of its "implications for a Greater Israel" now leaves me even more suspect of her personal integrity,-- not a character trait which merges with greed and seditious intentions to the foundation which ZIONISTS built here, both SECULAR AND RELIGIOUS.

[Ophra]

You two are really something ...... and typical of the religious right ;) .... I am soooooo laughing over here .

What I said ... and it was in defense of your combined attacks on my belief in Ariel Sharon ...... was this :


"" Really redcake ...... care to go right back to my first posts on here and check ????? Please do . Bring on your evidence to support your theory .
From day one on here I have said that I am not a Leftist , I have stated many many times that I voted Likud in the last election.
" The majority of Sharon's support weren't aware he would make such a drastic move. " ..... that's not my problem ... let's just say I know Arik better than they do
" He was elected because he was a moderate with a hardline image. " ... LOL .... what the hell do you think I am ????
" Does your dog talk to you about politics too ? " .. Nope ... but my husband does ... high ranking IDF officer redcake and a great supporter of Sharon .
" Any more assasinations on the horizon, mayhaps ? " ..... that would depend on the religious extreme right ... they have made plenty of threats about doing so as they did with Rabin . Better to ask someone else on here maybe...... I have very little contact with any such people .. the Army leaders are not very popular with them right now
" He's still far from a Rabin or a Peres. " ...... not that far ... not if you compare him to the religious extremist right-wing he isn't .... you people seem to forget that Arik and Rabin knew each other very well , served together and were friends. There is more to life than politics redcake. ""

FYI I do not know Ariel Sharon personally .... what I meant was that I understand the man and what he was saying pre-elections better than you religious did.... which is obvious ... I got what I voted for .. you got the opposite .
So my husband and I talk politics .... WOW !! ..... we have done for over 30 years ... I wasn't aware there is a Law against that .
He convinced me to vote Likud last elections.... I used to vote Labor .... what changed me was Rabin's assassination.... ever since I have been a hardliner against the religious right .... if it took voting Likud to bring you guys down then I was willing to do that.... still am . If not Likud then Shinui .

[redcake]

You two are really something ...... and typical of the religious right ;) .... I am soooooo laughing over here .

1) Read this slowly. I have very clearly stated in previous posts that it was a mistake for Israel to build on Gaza. How is this representative of the Religious Right perspective AT ALL?

2) Really, who cares about your family or where you live? Aren't you capable of a different line of argument which is less personalized? Or do you really think this forum is your own personal blog?

3) On topic, Sharon got elected based on a platform which stated he would NOT dismantle settlements. That's a fact.

[SteveK]

So my husband and I talk politics .... WOW !! ..... we have done for over 30 years ... I wasn't aware there is a Law against that .
He convinced me to vote Likud last elections.... I used to vote Labor .... what changed me was Rabin's assassination.... ever since I have been a hardliner against the religious right .... if it took voting Likud to bring you guys down then I was willing to do that.... still am . If not Likud then Shinui .

Ophra,

<edited by moderator>

[Ophra]

1) Read this slowly. I have very clearly stated in previous posts that it was a mistake for Israel to build on Gaza. How is this representative of the Religious Right perspective AT ALL?

2) Really, who cares about your family or where you live? Aren't you capable of a different line of argument which is less personalized? Or do you really think this forum is your own personal blog?

3) On topic, Sharon got elected based on a platform which stated he would NOT dismantle settlements. That's a fact.

1) I read everything slowly.... my English isn't that great... funny enough I joined these forums to improve my writing skills .
Sorry redcake... I'm not in the habit of reading your posts ... so how am I supposed to know ?

2) Errrrr hullooooo ... you were the one that jumped on me outa the blue.... wasn't it you that asked about my dog ????? ;) ..he is one of the family you know .. although he doesn't do much talking about politics. :D

3) Kindly go back a page and read Arik's speech again ... thank you.

...... and I quote
"" I am accused of deceiving the people and the voters because I am taking steps which are in total opposition to past things I have said and deeds I have done. This is a false accusation. Both during the elections and as Prime Minister, I have repeatedly and publicly said that I support the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel. I have repeatedly and openly said that I am willing to make painful compromises in order to put an end to this ongoing and malignant conflict between those who struggle over this land, and that I would do my utmost in order to bring peace.

And I wish, Mr. Chairman, to say that many years before, in 1988, in a meeting with Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir and with the Ministers of the Likud, I said there that I believe that if we do not want to be pushed back to the 1967 lines, the territory should be divided. ""

[Ophra]

Ophra,

Queen Jezebel.

ROFLMAO .

[SteveK]

1)

... Sorry redcake... I'm not in the habit of reading your posts ... so how am I supposed to know ?

2) Errrrr hullooooo ... you were the one that jumped on me outa the blue.... wasn't it you that asked about my dog ????? ;) ..he is one of the family you know .. although he doesn't do much talking about politics. :D

3) Kindly go back a page and read Arik's speech again ... thank you.

...... and I quote
"" I am accused of deceiving the people and the voters because I am taking steps which are in total opposition to past things I have said and deeds I have done. This is a false accusation. Both during the elections and as Prime Minister, I have repeatedly and publicly said that I support the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel. I have repeatedly and openly said that I am willing to make painful compromises in order to put an end to this ongoing and malignant conflict between those who struggle over this land, and that I would do my utmost in order to bring peace.

And I wish, Mr. Chairman, to say that many years before, in 1988, in a meeting with Prime Minister Yitzchak Shamir and with the Ministers of the Likud, I said there that I believe that if we do not want to be pushed back to the 1967 lines, the territory should be divided. ""


Ophra,

redcakes's line about you talking to your dog is no where near the savage implications of your:


Ophra to redcake and SteveK:

... I used to vote Labor .... what changed me was Rabin's assassination.... ever since I have been a hardliner against the religious right .... if it took voting Likud to bring you guys down then I was willing to do that....

Bringing down the religious right would be a convenient diversion and scapegoats away from the slimeballs' seditious surrender to the Arabs.


And, had Sharon clarified himself with any talk of expelling Jews from their God given land, then he would never have been put into power. Sharon has been forced by the slimeballs to do what he never intended to do, and was never elected to do. Surrendering what lands we have was painful enough and enough of a division. There had NEVER been talk of forced transfer of Jews.

[Ophra]

Whatever Steve .
Note one thing though....... I use the ballot box and not the bullet ;)

[SteveK]

Whatever Steve .
Note one thing though....... I use the ballot box and not the bullet ;)


Ophra,

You have just within a day claimed not to be a Zionist on top of all
your propaganda and psychological warfare.

You keep using your trecherous and libelous vendetta against the religious Zionists as the diversion for your seditious surrender to the Arabs.

With me, you have no more credibility. Though, you have given me a window now on the slimeballs in control of Arik Sharon.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

You have just within a day claimed not to be a Zionist on top of all
your propaganda and psychological warfare.

You keep using your trecherous and libelous vendetta against the religious Zionists as the diversion for your seditious surrender to the Arabs.

With me, you have no more credibility. Though, you have given me a window now on the slimeballs in control of Arik Sharon.

Once again Steve ..... whatever .

PS .. nobody controls Arik Sharon ... NOBODY !!

[SteveK]

Once again Steve ..... whatever .

PS .. nobody controls Arik Sharon ... NOBODY !!


Ophra,

The SLIMEBALLS control Arik Sharon. The SLIMEBALLS get Arik Sharon to shoot the bullets and then can claim that they just used the ballot box.

Your ballot box is not an instrument of the free democratic process and accountability of the elected officials. Your ballot box is your lethal weapon
to actualize your own extremist fanatical murderous and seditious agenda of surrender to the Arabs, and cleansing of God and Torah from His Land of Israel.

Queen Jezebel.

[redcake]

How revitionist can you get referencing a speech Sharon made AFTER the elections as proof of the public perception he had BEFORE and DURING the elections. He's a politician. Of course he's going to try and backtrack to keep face. You're the only one saying he's always been forthright about intentions to withdraw from Gaza. That's as dillusional as it gets. More so, you can tell he's working under durress...you can see it on his face.

[SteveK]

How revitionist can you get referencing a speech Sharon made AFTER the elections as proof of the public perception he had BEFORE and DURING the elections. He's a politician. Of course he's going to try and backtrack to keep face. You're the only one saying he's always been forthright about intentions to withdraw from Gaza. That's as dillusional as it gets. More so, you can tell he's working under durress...you can see it on his face.


And, we can see how calm is the face of Shimon Peres for over a decade
even in the face of the Israelis as victims of terror and sacrifice to his
seditious surrender to the Arabs for his own self-aggranding agenda.

There is a vast difference in character between Shimon Peres and Arik Sharon. Yes, redcake, the face of Arik Sharon does show his difference in character to the leader of the pack of the other side of hell, Shimon Peres.

[Ophra]

How revitionist can you get referencing a speech Sharon made AFTER the elections as proof of the public perception he had BEFORE and DURING the elections. He's a politician. Of course he's going to try and backtrack to keep face. You're the only one saying he's always been forthright about intentions to withdraw from Gaza. That's as dillusional as it gets. More so, you can tell he's working under durress...you can see it on his face.

* Double sigh * ... were you here for the last elections redcake ? Did you vote Likud ? I listened intently to every pre-election speech etc that Sharon and Barak made (in Hebrew BTW) I take my one vote very very seriously .
Of course Arik never said anything about withdrawing from Gaza .... that would have been idiotic .. he would not have been elected.
You have to be able to read between the lines redcake.... and know who it is that you are voting for and his history .

"" You're the only one saying he's always been forthright about intentions to withdraw from Gaza. "" ... I did ??? :confused: .... Where ??
Please show me redcake ....... maybe I've been sleepwalking and posting at the same time . ??????

Betach he is working under duress ..... look at the number of death threats he has had . He is old and tired and stressed .
Any one of his age trying to run Israel would look stressed out at a time like this . I worry about his health .

[windowlicker]

I worry about his health .

me too. his face looks really really tired and it gets me sad.

[SteveK]

=Ophra

..... Of course Arik never said anything about withdrawing from Gaza .... that would have been idiotic .. he would not have been elected.

You have to be able to read between the lines redcake.... and know who it is that you are voting for and his history .



Ophra,

Of course Arik never said anything about withdrawing from Gaza,--- he didn't have the thought to do it.

But, why wouldn't he have been elected if he had said that he was withdrawing (expelling the Jews) from Gaza? Afterall, didn't you say before that the real majority of the voters who put him into power were like you??? So, if that's the case, then your real majority would have put him into power whether he said such a thing, or it was just "read between the lines". But, now you admit that he wouldn't have been elected had he been honest,- according to your wishes. You speak with forked tongue.

So, my real majority of voters did put him into power because we were the ones who expected and demanded that "Arik" carry out a Jewish and Zionist agenda, as he said he would, and without having to read between the lines.

[Ophra]

Ophra,

So, my real majority of voters did put him into power because we were the ones who expected and demanded that "Arik" carry out a Jewish and Zionist agenda, as he said he would, and without having to read between the lines.

Yeah right Steve ...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dear people of Israel .... vote for me and I will bring Peace by transferring all Arabs to the moon and giving those wonderful peaceful messianic madmen all the Land that God promised to them 2,000 years ago .... plus I will then immediately retire and hand over my Prime Minister status to the Chief Rabbi who will then declare a religious theocracy instead of our secular democracy .
The Chief Rabbi will then organize the destruction of the The Dome of the Rock and order the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem .

WOW ... I wonder how many votes he would have got then ???

Wonder what America and the rest of the International community would have to say about that ?????.......... or don't you care ??

[SteveK]

Yeah right Steve ...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dear people of Israel .... vote for me and I will bring Peace by transferring all Arabs to the moon and giving those wonderful peaceful messianic madmen all the Land that God promised to them 2,000 years ago .... plus I will then immediately retire and hand over my Prime Minister status to the Chief Rabbi who will then declare a religious theocracy instead of our secular democracy .
The Chief Rabbi will then organize the destruction of the The Dome of the Rock and order the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem .

WOW ... I wonder how many votes he would have got then ???

Wonder what America and the rest of the International community would have to say about that ?????.......... or don't you care ??


Ophra,

So, we have come full circle back to the source of all your troubles.
You are representative of a good majority of the Israelis on this account.

But, as much as you want to run away from God as the source of our
strength, stronghold, and refuge, you eagerly want to run into the arms of our enemies, the Arabs, and other nations for such.

This lack of faith in the Living God of Israel is the cause for your running scared and literally into the worship of idols.

The incident of the golden calf at Mount Sinai was also the result of fear, and loss of faith in God.


(EXODUS 32):

The people saw that Moses had delayed in descending the mountain, and the people gathered around Aaron and said to him, "Rise up, make for us gods that will go before us, for this man Moses who brought us up from the land of Egypt,-- we do not know what became of him!"

The entire people removed the gold rings that were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron .... and fashioned it into a molten calf. They said, "This is your god, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt..."


Also, our actions as a nation today, and our failures, stem from a national foolishness of ancient origin:



Isaiah (30:1-2):

Woe, O wayward sons --- the word of HASHEM --- who take counsel, but not from Me, and who accept a ruler, but not of My spirit, in order to add sin upon sin; who are going to descend to Egypt but did not inquire of My mouth, to seek strength in Pharaoh's stronghold and to take shelter in Egypt's shade. Pharaoh's stronghold will be a shame for you and the shelter in Egypt's shade will be a humiliation!"

God is the real living entity. We as a nation must come to grips with that fact, and our heritage of faith, worship, and practice.

It's either our faith in The Living God of Israel, and our return to Torah, or
to continue in your pursuit of running into the man-made Baal Peor for our salvation,- so you won't have to be an "army grandmother".

We must start to be the Jewish Nation.


(Jeremiah 16):

HASHEM, my Strength, my Stronghold, and my Refuge on the day of distress!... Can a man make gods for himself? --- they are not gods!"


The Government of Israel has not been leading, but running after man-made
gods for our strength, our stronghold, and our refuge. Now, you are shouting to throw even Jews into the fire for sacrifices to these gods.

You are desperate.

We must start now to be the Jewish Nation.

And, yes, that does take Torah leaders to guide us.

[Ophra]

I want to see Israel as truly a Jewish State with God and Torah on the national agenda.

Steve,

I am beginning to worry about you .... maybe it would be a good idea to get off the computer for a bit ???
Go outside and smell the roses :) ... it's dark already ... maybe listen to the crickets ??

"But, as much as you want to run away from God as the source of our
strength, stronghold, and refuge, you eagerly want to run into the arms of our enemies, the Arabs, and other nations for such.

This lack of faith in the Living God of Israel is the cause for your running scared and literally into the worship of idols."

It's not Steve .... I just do not believe .

A question .... why can't you just worship from the heart , from your own home ? Why must you involve the rest of us who are not interested ?

Your quote above Steve .... it will never happen . I'm sorry .

[SteveK]

Steve,

I am beginning to worry about you .... maybe it would be a good idea to get off the computer for a bit ???
Go outside and smell the roses :) ... it's dark already ... maybe listen to the crickets ??

"But, as much as you want to run away from God as the source of our
strength, stronghold, and refuge, you eagerly want to run into the arms of our enemies, the Arabs, and other nations for such.

This lack of faith in the Living God of Israel is the cause for your running scared and literally into the worship of idols."

It's not Steve .... I just do not believe .

A question .... why can't you just worship from the heart , from your own home ? Why must you involve the rest of us who are not interested ?

Your quote above Steve .... it will never happen . I'm sorry .


Ophra,


Confused faith and idolatry among the Jews was known to Moses.
If you don't have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then you
are most certainly making idols for yourself, and/or finding them in others or other things. Your surrender to the Arabs is every bit idolatry.

God gave us the Land of Israel. We Jews have a covenant with Him.
Do you still practice the Brit in your family? If so, then why?

Our covenant with God is not about private home armchair spirituality,- it's about our united nation under God.

It will happen. Once these Orthodox religious groups unite here and get out of their own four walled mentalities of the diaspora, it will happen. Personally, I look to Breslov as the catalyst.

Remember that from the poison must also come the derivative for a cure.

Jews of faith will not be taken in by your propaganda and psychological warfare. You come across as the priestess of the Baal Peor.

[windowlicker]

steve,
i love and fear God, and believe in the Torah wholeheartedly as well. i really, really do.

however, lately ive been finding myself unable to believe or follow a fair portion of the leading rabbis here in israel. why? because some of what they preach and spread doesnt seem jewish to me at all. to the contrary, a lot of it is really unacceptable.

wasnt it rav ovadya yosef who gave his support to the oslo agreement a little over 10 years ago? did you know that without his word it would have never happened? hmm...

what about the thousands of charedim who do not serve in the military, hiding behind the laughable excuse that it goes against their beliefs? thats no excuse for their laziness or audacity. they can easily serve in the nachal charedi, or just go to plain hesder, while still being torah keeping jews. btw, please dont take this as though i dislike charedim. i love every jew, but as i wrote earier- its unnaceptable.

what about rabbis publicly bashing homosexuals, calling them the "cancer" and "darkness" of the state? or what about the so called religious men and women who violently demonstrated at jerusalem's pride parade this year, throwing bags of urine and holding signs that said "you are a disgrace to humanity"? and of course, what about the stabbings? and please dont go into the "jerusalems not the place for a gay parade" argument, because its irrelevant. i am specifically talking about the "jewish" actions and responses of these settlers/chaerdim. as ive said in another thread- its barbaric.

is this the jewish direction for israel that you are talking about?

fact of the matter is- every israeli realizes that israel is a jewish state. the non-religious do in fact celebrate jewish holidays, just not in way that you can relate with. they are aware of their heritage and tradition. and if they arent, if they choose not to believe in God and Torah, then it is 100% their right. you and i are in no position to say or do anything, except for cases in which they are interested in our kiruv, of course.

to each his own.

[SteveK]

steve,
i love and fear God, and believe in the Torah wholeheartedly as well. i really, really do.......



windowlicker,



i love and fear God, and believe in the Torah wholeheartedly as well. i really, really do.

windowlicker: I don't believe you.



however, lately ive been finding myself unable to believe or follow a fair portion of the leading rabbis here in israel. why? because some of what they preach and spread doesnt seem jewish to me at all. to the contrary, a lot of it is really unacceptable.

windowlicker: I go on record here in this forum repeatedly saying, as well with personal Orthodox contacts here in Israel saying, that all the Jewish religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties are nothing but poison to the spiritual growth of the Jewish People,--- but from the poison, as with any poison, must come the derivative for a cure. Personally, I am looking to Breslov Chassidim as the derivative of the poison for that cure.



wasnt it rav ovadya yosef who gave his support to the oslo agreement a little over 10 years ago? did you know that without his word it would have never happened? hmm...

windowlicker: So, why with his word now can't he stop this suicide pack with these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates? hmmmm .....



what about the thousands of charedim who do not serve in the military, hiding behind the laughable excuse that it goes against their beliefs? thats no excuse for their laziness or audacity. they can easily serve in the nachal charedi, or just go to plain hesder, while still being torah keeping jews. btw, please dont take this as though i dislike charedim. i love every jew, but as i wrote earier- its unnaceptable.

windowlicker: these charedim have an Israeli address. I see that you don't.



what about rabbis publicly bashing homosexuals, calling them the "cancer" and "darkness" of the state? or what about the so called religious men and women who violently demonstrated at jerusalem's pride parade this year, throwing bags of urine and holding signs that said "you are a disgrace to humanity"? and of course, what about the stabbings? and please dont go into the "jerusalems not the place for a gay parade" argument, because its irrelevant. i am specifically talking about the "jewish" actions and responses of these settlers/chaerdim. as ive said in another thread- its barbaric.

windowlicker: Jerusalem is not the place for a gay parade. The arguement is relevant. For comparison, how would the religious men and women whom you admire in NY, or here in Israel, have reacted/did react at/about this Jerusalem gay parade?



is this the jewish direction for israel that you are talking about?

windowlicker: Read my thread: ISSUES FOR A NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL. Then ask me your question again.



fact of the matter is- every israeli realizes that israel is a jewish state. the non-religious do in fact celebrate jewish holidays, just not in way that you can relate with. they are aware of their heritage and tradition. and if they arent, if they choose not to believe in God and Torah, then it is 100% their right. you and i are in no position to say or do anything, except for cases in which they are interested in our kiruv, of course.
to each his own.

windowlicker: From Abraham on.... there have been Jews to defend God against the atheists and idolators.

[windowlicker]

windowlicker,
windowlicker: I don't believe you.
windowlicker: I go on record here in this forum repeatedly saying, as well with personal Orthodox contacts here in Israel saying, that all the Jewish religious movements and Rabbinic dynasties are nothing but poison to the spiritual growth of the Jewish People,--- but from the poison, as with any poison, must come the derivative for a cure. Personally, I am looking to Breslov Chassidim as the derivative of the poison for that cure.
windowlicker: So, why with his word now can't he stop this suicide pack with these Arab murderers, torturers, and international pirates? hmmmm .....
windowlicker: these charedim have an Israeli address. I see that you don't.
windowlicker: Jerusalem is not the place for a gay parade. The arguement is relevant. For comparison, how would the religious men and women whom you admire in NY, or here in Israel, have reacted/did react at/about this Jerusalem gay parade?
windowlicker: Read my thread: ISSUES FOR A NATIONAL TORAH LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL. Then ask me your question again.
windowlicker: From Abraham on.... there have been Jews to defend God against the atheists and idolators.

stevek, lama ata oseh li chayim kashim??
stevek,first of all, i dont understand why you dont believe me when i claim that i believe in the torah and God. i think youve got a nerve. in fact, im insulted. i may not be as religious as id like to be today, i am really working on it. and i love the torah, and enjoy learning gemarah as well.

stevek, the charedim have an israeli adress, but that doesnt mean much. anyways, so do i. i am writing these words from jerusalem, at my family's house who i have come to visit. i lived in jerusalem since i was a child, and after finishing my 3 years of service in the military i decided to move to new york for personal reasons which i cant go into here. bottom line is that i gave my contribution to the country and will definitely one day come back to live here. thank you.
and regarding the gay parade: fine, ill admit that jerusalem may not be the right place to hold a parade, but you still havent answered my questions. is acting out in the ways which i have described a form of jewish behaviour, or will you at least budge just a little and admit tha it is arab-like, and absolutely revolting. many people felt extremely offended and threatened. do you think such a thing will help them get closer to God and torah? read my imaginary lips: c-h-i-l-u-l h-a-s-h-e-m

i dont even know what we are arguing about anymore. i think any jew becoming more religious is obviously a good thing. however, youll find many non religious jews who keep mitzvot that many other charedim dont. its all mixed up, and everyone has his stronger and weaker points.

[SteveK]

stevek, lama ata oseh li chayim kashim?? ...

i dont even know what we are arguing about anymore. ...

its all mixed up ...



lama ata oseh li chayim kashim??

windowlicker: I doubt that I'm one of the "personal reasons" why you emigrated from Israel.



stevek,first of all, i dont understand why you dont believe me when i claim that i believe in the torah and God. i think youve got a nerve. in fact, im insulted. i may not be as religious as id like to be today, i am really working on it. and i love the torah, and enjoy learning gemarah as well.

windowlicker: But, now, you just make God into a Passover storybook myth with the other diaspora Jews in Christian lands,--- The God Who took us out of Egyptian bondage and brought us into our own Land, Israel.



stevek, the charedim have an israeli adress, but that doesnt mean much. anyways, so do i. i am writing these words from jerusalem, at my family's house who i have come to visit. i lived in jerusalem since i was a child, and after finishing my 3 years of service in the military i decided to move to new york for personal reasons which i cant go into here. bottom line is that i gave my contribution to the country and will definitely one day come back to live here. thank you.

windowlicker: But, the charidim are actually living at their Israeli addresses and an Israeli life. The charedim are doing their share to actually hold the Land of Israel for the Jewish People, which you are not. They are doing their share to the hold the Land of Israel with a Jewish majority so that the gates remain wide open for you to visit here. And, their generations are doing more than their share to hold our true Jewish heritage intact for all of us, while " [you and I] may not be as religious as [you and I] like to be today, really working on it.". The charedim have been with us through the generations to help us "really work on it".



and regarding the gay parade: fine, ill admit that jerusalem may not be the right place to hold a parade, but you still havent answered my questions. is acting out in the ways which i have described a form of jewish behaviour, or will you at least budge just a little and admit tha it is arab-like, and absolutely revolting. many people felt extremely offended and threatened. do you think such a thing will help them get closer to God and torah? read my imaginary lips: c-h-i-l-u-l h-a-s-h-e-m

windowlicker: Please answer my prior qustion: How would the religious men and women whom you admire in NY, or here in Israel, have reacted/did react at/about this Jerusalem gay parade?



i dont even know what we are arguing about anymore. i think any jew becoming more religious is obviously a good thing. however, youll find many non religious jews who keep mitzvot that many other charedim dont. its all mixed up, and everyone has his stronger and weaker points.

windowlicker:



[B]Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

That's why we need a National Torah Leadership in Israel, and one who will override the divisive Jewish religious movements of your diaspora,- those Jewish religious movements of your diaspora which ludicrously maintain their headquarters in New York, and open branches here in Israel "to teach" Israelis about their heritage, and how to be better Jews (and richer ones too) in Brooklyn than in Jerusalem.

[windowlicker]

all i can say right now is that i admire your passion for bringing jews back home to the holy land. the more jews that come here, the better.

one day ill be on my way back for good...

[Sheherazade]

all i can say right now is that i admire your passion for bringing jews back home to the holy land. the more jews that come here, the better.

one day ill be on my way back for good...


Why?

[windowlicker]

Why?
are you seriously asking why i think its good that jews come to israel?

[Sheherazade]

are you seriously asking why i think its good that jews come to israel?


Yes I am seriously asking that. Why is it necessary for Jews to go to Israel? It isn't the end of times and we are not being gathered in by any supreme being.

[sharonbn]

Well... I also thought it was obvious, but since the question was asked, there are two reasons why every Jew should come live here in ISrael:

1) Israel is the only country in the world that does not suffer from Anti-Semitism and is safe for Jews from persecution. In fact, this is the main reason why the coutry was established. You can live peacefully in your current location, but just remember that when hooded men come knocking at your door, you have only one place that will welcome you unquiestionably.

2) Israel needs as many Jews as there are, for its survival as the Jewish state. We face an imminent ethnic extermination if we don't maintain a Jewish majority. We also need Jews here to help build the country and prosper here.

You need Israel, Israel needs you. kinda like a win-win scenario :)

[windowlicker]

wow, i never thought that a <edited by moderator> could give such an elaborate and precise answer. you took the words out of my mouth. kol hakavod.

Well... I also thought it was obvious, but since the question was asked, there are two reasons why every Jew should come live here in ISrael:

1) Israel is the only country in the world that does not suffer from Anti-Semitism and is safe for Jews from persecution. In fact, this is the main reason why the coutry was established. You can live peacefully in your current location, but just remember that when hooded men come knocking at your door, you have only one place that will welcome you unquiestionably.

2) Israel needs as many Jews as there are, for its survival as the Jewish state. We face an imminent ethnic extermination if we don't maintain a Jewish majority. We also need Jews here to help build the country and prosper here.

You need Israel, Israel needs you. kinda like a win-win scenario :)

[Mediocrates]

You need Israel, Israel needs you. kinda like a win-win scenario :)


No, no & no.

[sharonbn]

please explain (if its not a waste of time, of course)

[Mediocrates]

We diaspora Jews don't need Israel, you don't need us and no, it's not a win win situation. It's more of a quaint sentimental relationship.

[sharonbn]

well, I happen to disagree on that.

1) Israel is the only answer to a second holocaust. if someone thinks this is unlikely to happen again, they're deluding themselves.

2) Israel is facing a real problem of demographics. The Arab population growth outweighs the Jewish one. w/o Jewish majority, Israel will cease the be the Jewish national homeland. what's so terrible with that? see point no. 1

now tell me where am I wrong.

[Mediocrates]

well, I happen to disagree on that.

1) Israel is the only answer to a second holocaust. if someone thinks this is unlikely to happen again, they're deluding themselves.

We'll just assimilate and cease to be Jews, like most of the Israelis. Most American Jews are Jews in ancestry only, just like most of the Israelis. It's unlikely there will be new Nuremburg laws, and if there are I'm reasonably sure they will apply to all non white non Prostestants.


2) Israel is facing a real problem of demographics. The Arab population growth outweighs the Jewish one. w/o Jewish majority, Israel will cease the be the Jewish national homeland. what's so terrible with that? see point no. 1


So? You all want to be cosmopolitan secular citizens of the world; a middle eastern post modern Ireland. What difference does it make if you wear blue or green?

[SteveK]

well, I happen to disagree on that.

1) Israel is the only answer to a second holocaust. if someone thinks this is unlikely to happen again, they're deluding themselves.

2) Israel is facing a real problem of demographics. The Arab population growth outweighs the Jewish one. w/o Jewish majority, Israel will cease the be the Jewish national homeland. what's so terrible with that? see point no. 1

now tell me where am I wrong.

sharonbn,


1) Israel is the only answer to a second holocaust. if someone thinks this is unlikely to happen again, they're deluding themselves.

The European Jews were prancing around invincible all the time that the early Zionist pioneers were repeatedly calling for their aliyah. Then, while these same Jews were screaming to get out of NAZI Europe, these same early Zionist pioneers were continuing to build and fight, and prepare the Land of Israel, and the way, to receive the survivors and give them a new life.


2) Israel is facing a real problem of demographics. The Arab population growth outweighs the Jewish one. w/o Jewish majority, Israel will cease the be the Jewish national homeland. what's so terrible with that? see point no. 1

Think about what the Jewish settlers have on their minds along with point 1.



now tell me where am I wrong.

Considering your points 1 and 2, and the life and death sacrifices of the Jewish settlers to respond to your points 1 and 2, who will now be forcefully expelled by a Jewish Government from their Land to allow another hostile Arab nation to surround us, you seem to be severely contradicting yourself in building for an overpowering Jewish majority:


posted by sharonbn on "THE WILD WEST BANK":

Come and do the disengagement yourself!
Its a flash game where you're supposed to click to dismantle caravans, homes and settlements...
(instructions in Hebrew only)

http://brand.co.il/unik/westbank/


"oy oy why is it only possible in the internet to move these colonies with a click of a button...."

[sharonbn]

We'll just assimilate and cease to be Jews, like most of the Israelis. Most American Jews are Jews in ancestry only, just like most of the Israelis. It's unlikely there will be new Nuremburg laws, and if there are I'm reasonably sure they will apply to all non white non Prostestants.
The German Jewry of the 1920s and 30s was by large a secular community. It was highly educated, well read and informed of current affairs, and most important, very loosely connected to the Jewish religioh. They blended into the surrounding western society. So much blended, that they held high positions in the banking, economic, political and cultural areas of the German country. They thought they are heading towards asssimilation.
Well, I guess appearences can be deceiving,


So? You all want to be cosmopolitan secular citizens of the world; a middle eastern post modern Ireland. What difference does it make if you wear blue or green?
You lost me there. Anyway, for reasons outlined in my previous paragraph, Israel needs to be maintained as the Jewish state - If you think that by distancing yourself from Jewish religion, by aqcuiring all the external and internal characteristics of the surroundubg society - then you will get accepted as one of them - you are wrong. History proves that.
When something will go awfully wrong and they will look for a scapegoat - they will suddenly remember your ethnic origin.

You can laugh all you want about my paranoia. Israel is essential for the survival of the Jewish people, not the Jewish faith.

[Mediocrates]

The German Jewry of the 1920s and 30s was by large a secular community. It was highly educated, well read and informed of current affairs, and most important, very loosely connected to the Jewish religioh. They blended into the surrounding western society. So much blended, that they held high positions in the banking, economic, political and cultural areas of the German country. They thought they are heading towards asssimilation.
Well, I guess appearences can be deceiving,


Oh I'm pretty sure the psychochristians, skinheads, neo-mullahs and whatnot aren't interested in blood. They want converts and apocalypticism. Given half a chance, half of all American Jews would choose conversion over punishment, privation or expulsion. Look at Europe today, the largest resurgence of antisemitic violence in 60 years and still aliyah is a trickle. Half of the criticism of Israel comes from European Jews anyway.



You lost me there. Anyway, for reasons outlined in my previous paragraph, Israel needs to be maintained as the Jewish state - If you think that by distancing yourself from Jewish religion, by aqcuiring all the external and internal characteristics of the surroundubg society - then you will get accepted as one of them - you are wrong.

Only in your part of the world. Here we are much more free to continue living if we just disabuse ourselves of being "Jewish". Oh I'm sure that the continued existance of Israel is necessary to preserve your life but me? Not so much.



History proves that.
When something will go awfully wrong and they will look for a scapegoat - they will suddenly remember your ethnic origin.

I'm not worried that much. I'll kill them back, or not. So many American Jews are now right wing ideologues I think we've moved down to the list of people to be sent off to Camp Freedom-Liberty after the gays, arabs and Democratic party voters.



You can laugh all you want about my paranoia. Israel is essential for the survival of the Jewish people, not the Jewish faith.

Only if you accept that a stunted mutant version of Judaism is what you're talking about. I hardly consider High Holy Day Jews who don't know or practice, observe anything to be any more important than me practicing any of the quaint national customs from all of the long ago European countries my ancestors came from.

[SteveK]

.... If you think that by distancing yourself from Jewish religion, by aqcuiring all the external and internal characteristics of the surroundubg society - then you will get accepted as one of them - you are wrong. History proves that.
When something will go awfully wrong and they will look for a scapegoat - they will suddenly remember your ethnic origin.

You can laugh all you want about my paranoia. Israel is essential for the survival of the Jewish people, not the Jewish faith.


The Jewish faith is needed by the diaspora Jews, but not by the Israelis?
Once a diaspora Jew immigrates to Israel, then he can leave his Jewish faith behind? So, by expelling the Jewish Gaza settlers from their land, Israel is really just expelling that much more in any unneeded influence of the Jewish faith and its existence in Israel? In fact, let these expelled Jewish settlers go away to the diaspora with all the other Jews of faith here in Israel so that they can bring the Jewish faith to the diaspora Jews, and get them moving here to Israel for reasons of survival of the Jewish People, but without any need for the Jewish faith here in Israel....

In highschool, I had gym class the first thing in the morning. I learned after the first time not to eat breakfast. That's why I didn't vomit all over the track field like the other kids every morning. That's why I always come here to the forum on an empty stomach.

[redcake]

1) Israel is the only country in the world that does not suffer from Anti-Semitism and is safe for Jews from persecution. In fact, this is the main reason why the coutry was established.

Is this satire? I think the amount of subtopics in this forum alone makes it pretty evident that Anti-Semitism is alive and well, as Jews are being persecuted every day within Israeli borders. Otherwise we'd have little more to talk about aside from our favorite Elite candy, and the exchange on Chekels.

Medio also makes a good point. Israel isn't exactly the great preservation of Judaic living.

[Sheherazade]

Is this satire? I think the amount of subtopics in this forum alone makes it pretty evident that Anti-Semitism is alive and well, as Jews are being persecuted every day within Israeli borders. Otherwise we'd have little more to talk about aside from our favorite Elite candy, and the exchange on Chekels.

Medio also makes a good point. Israel isn't exactly the great preservation of Judaic living.

I'm curious as to what you mean by that. I have my own ideas, but I would like to see yours. Are you saying that the non-religious Jews are being persecuted or that the right-wing and settlers are being persecuted? Or both?

[redcake]

*The political climate
*The daily attacks, threats, and propaganda against Israeli citizens which are State sponsored
*The equation of Zionism to racism, or Nazism
*The equation that the Israeli religious right are extremists akin to the Wahabists
*Forced gestures of "compassion" ie. giving the PA guns, teaching Israeli school children Arabic, awarding terrorists with Peace Prizes
*Pretending that people aren't attempting to wage genocidal warfare on Jews
*The acceptance of terminology like "occupied"
*The myth that Israel is filled with European settlers

*The removal of Jews from any land deemed Arabic

This partial list is ALL a form of persecution and anti-semitism.

[Ophra]

Disengagement blues

What part of me would give to be orange right now, 14 days before disengagement. I'd be able to turn around – probably no more than 14 days after the last Israeli had been pulled out of Gaza and northern Samaria – and scream: "I told you so! I told you this would not bring peace; that the Palestinians would interpret Israel's withdrawal as a victory for terrorism; that far from buying us diplomatic breathing space, pressure from the EU and the US to make further, even riskier, concessions would promptly materialize."

And yet, with a heavy heart, I embrace Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's argument that the Jewish state must not rule over Gaza's 1 million hostile Palestinian Arabs in perpetuity; that Gush Katif is no longer a military asset; and that to salvage as much of Judea, Samaria – and Jerusalem – as possible, precious communities must be uprooted.

Am I getting cold feet? You bet. Being on the "winning" side brings no pleasure. Disengagement will likely be what we're all anticipating: emotionally gut-wrenching.

Not since Oslo have I observed such widespread alienation from the political system. His embittered opponents say Sharon is uprooting the Jews so the media will forget, and left-leaning judicial powers ignore, his family's corruption. Sharon, they say, has sold his soul for a few more months of power; and so has the Knesset majority.

And you know something? Sharon really has used every (technically legal) dirty trick in the book to bulldoze his policies through. He has fired principled cabinet ministers who challenged him; he's gone back on his word time and again. He lacked the wisdom to ask for new elections; rejected the option of a national referendum; permitted the civil liberties of anti-disengagement protesters to be trampled.

WHICH IS why, if disengagement opponents came up with a Plan B – some scheme that obviated the need for disengagement – I'd join their ranks in a snap. But Sharon's critics have nothing to offer in place of disengagement; no realistic way of coping with a burgeoning, antagonistic enemy population; no reasonable arrangement that addresses the radically inferior – compared to just five years ago – strategic, diplomatic and internal situation we find ourselves in.

The orange camp behaves as if the enemy command were still sitting in North Africa, as if the war Yasser Arafat launched five years ago hasn't brought the Palestinians tangible military achievements. Sharon's opponents behave as if Israel weren't right now constructing a security barrier that's demarking our lines of defense for years to come.

In short, foes of disengagement are right that it's a policy from hell – but they have nothing better to offer when doing nothing is untenable.

The alternative to disengagement isn't a return to the blissful days of the early settlement movement, it's full speed ahead toward Yossi Beilin's widely-supported (by powerful international forces) Geneva Initiative, which would throw us back to the 1949 Armistice Lines. That's the choice. There is no other. And most Israelis know it – which is why, if elections were held today, Sharon would win again and those parties solidly tied to the anti-disengagement movement would capture, maybe, 11 Knesset seats.

"Disinformation," I hear some of my orange friends claim.

Because if you live in a world that claims exclusivity to the Truth, if you know God's will, if the politics of paranoia is your reality; if delusions make you see Nazis or Cossacks in the guise of Israeli soldiers or police, your psychosis is blocking out reality.

WHATEVER ITS many pitfalls, disengagement just might buy Israel some diplomatic breathing space. The orange camp seems oblivious to just how close we are to being tarred as the Rhodesia of the 21st century. Google "boycott Israel" and you'll see what I mean.

The irrational Right may not worry about what "the goyim think," but pragmatic security hawks need to. In an era of global interdependence, autarky is not an option. Like it or not, we need Washington and Brussels more than they need us.

From Lyndon Johnson to Bill Clinton, every US administration unbendingly insisted on a total Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon's policy has caused the first crack in this once-unalterable stance. Disengagement parks Israel in a place that demands Germany, France, Britain and the US ask the Palestinians, finally, what they're willing to trade for peace.

I admit that Sharon and his advisers may have oversold disengagement with rosy scenarios of a beneficent Bush administration embracing the principle of the Palestinians cracking down on terrorism before Washington backs their demands for additional Israeli concessions. Indeed, the State Department has already gone wobbly on the concept that terrorism must be eradicated before there can be "progress" on the road map, as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's recent visit to the region showed.

But let's not expect Washington to be more pro-Israel than the Israeli cabinet. I'm perplexed by Sharon's decision to entrust the Philadelphi Corridor to Egyptian policing, given that without Egyptian acquiescence there'd hardly be any arms traf from Sinai into Gaza in the first place.

Sharon claims that once the Gaza withdrawal is behind us there will be no "gestures" and no "progress" on the road map until the terrorism infrastructure is dismantled. If he holds firm, if the US pro-Israel community unites behind this stance, Israel will be diplomatically better off than it is today.

As for the Palestinians, no one ever lost money by betting they'd do something stupid. Don't expect them to turn the Gaza Strip into a Hong Kong on the Mediterranean. The IDF will still periodically have to enter the area to stop enemy attacks of one kind or another. But once it is relieved of responsibility for Israeli civilians inside the Strip, the army's burden will lessen.

YET FOR me the strongest case for disengagement isn't diplomatic or military, but societal. Thirty-eight years after the liberation of the Jewish heartland, support within the body politic for the settlement enterprise is at a nadir. Some of Israel's best and brightest – the secular youngsters who become IAF pilots or elite commandos – are as alienated from the settlers as the Yesha Council is from Tel Aviv anarchists who sleep with the enemy. Opponents of disengagement seem unmindful of the extraordinary rift in our society.

With our home front so divided can we really triumph over a determined Palestinian foe? Real love of Israel – ahavat yisrael – demands we feel the pain not just of the hesder boys but of their Ramat Aviv Gimmel contemporaries, too.

Disengagement allows Israel to consolidate its defensive lines. It demonstrates understanding of international public opinion, and stabilizes the home front.

My orange friends may well have occasion to say, "I told you so." But they never presented a better alternative. There comes a point when doing nothing just isn't a rational option.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1122776413878

[sharonbn]

My orange friends may well have occasion to say, "I told you so." But they never presented a better alternative. There comes a point when doing nothing just isn't a rational option.
I think that's what I've been saying all along: after much shouting and smearing, the right is implementing left's plans, which are the only solution that's on the table.

[Ophra]

I think that's what I've been saying all along: after much shouting and smearing, the right is implementing left's plans, which are the only solution that's on the table.

I know . It's why I posted it ;) :D

[Mediocrates]

It's hard to see what a 'better alternative' could look like. It's really about two fundamentally opposed views of what "Israel" is. One side won and the other lost. Now the big ugly rhino in the room all of you are ignoring is what to do with all of the hundreds of thousands of people you're in the process of marginalizing. If I were you I'd recommend you declare the Kotel a no-go military zone as well. Otherwise you'll have more inconvenient protests like the one today.

I think you're months away from a Tiananmen square scenario anyway.

[Ophra]

It's hard to see what a 'better alternative' could look like. It's really about two fundamentally opposed views of what "Israel" is. One side won and the other lost. Now the big ugly rhino in the room all of you are ignoring is what to do with all of the hundreds of thousands of people you're in the process of marginalizing. If I were you I'd recommend you declare the Kotel a no-go military zone as well. Otherwise you'll have more inconvenient protests like the one today.

I think you're months away from a Tiananmen square scenario anyway.

No Medio .... there is much more to Israel than "two fundamentally opposed views"..... I keep telling you guys to stop thinking Left and Right ... but you don't :) The only non-Israeli that comes close to understanding on here is Mira.
" One side won and the other lost." .... one small part of Israeli society has just been taught that they were not as important as they thought they were..... that no "part" is bigger or better than the whole .

They will learn to live like the rest of us Medio.... or they can move on ... their choice.

" I think you're months away from a Tiananmen square scenario anyway. ".... yeah well , your the eternal pessimist ;)

[Mediocrates]

You gotta love that take it or shove it attitude.

[sharonbn]

This attitude, and the rules of the game, were set by the settlers.
They are eating now what they cooked yesterday.

[Mediocrates]

Yeah all bullies say you made them beat you.

[sharonbn]

The bullies in this case are the settlers

[Mediocrates]

yeah all 245 of them

[Ophra]

yeah all 245 of them

What did I tell you Medio ... see :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3125843,00.html

This is an interesting trend :cool: .... I hope it keeps up :D

[Mediocrates]

What did I tell you Medio ... see :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3125843,00.html

This is an interesting trend :cool: .... I hope it keeps up :D

I hope Palestine is returned to its rightful owners too.

[Mediocrates]

While the Haaretzniks flutter and squawk about the evil Jews among them, the PLO is working furiously to establish an operational beachhead.

From Debka:

Orient House is Reopened, Symbol of formal Palestinian Foothold in Jerusalem

DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis

"The Palestinians are about to fulfill a dream. Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip next week is but the preface to more withdrawals on the road to a Palestinian state with Jerusalem its capital. So said the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas Tuesday, August 9.

Palestinian leaders have every right to the mood of euphoria that Abu
Mazen voiced on their behalf.

For without conceding a single point, giving anything in return, setting the Middle East road map in motion - or even starting to crack down on terrorists, the Palestinians will soon be granted:

1. The Gaza Strip rid of every last Jew and Israeli as their exclusive domain.

2. For the first time, they will share an open border with the largest Arab nation, Egypt.

3. A deepwater port over whose shipping traffic Israel will have no control.

4. A territorial link from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank. There is no doubt that Abu Mazen has done a lot better than the late Arafat who never dreamed of fulfilling so many dreams. When he spoke of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem its capital, Abbas was not talking out of his hat.

Although not a word of this has been leaked thus far, Orient House, the symbol of Palestinian Authority sovereign rule in East Jerusalem, has reopened for business for the first time in four years. In 2001, this symbol was demonstratively shut down on the orders of the first Sharon government. Now, the Palestinian leader has jumped the gun and set his brand on Jerusalem, the seat of the Israeli government, ahead of peace negotiations or any talks with Israel on the profoundly controversial Jerusalem issue.

DEBKAfile's Palestinians sources reveal that the Palestinian Authority, on Abbas' orders, has begun issuing communiqu?s to the Palestinians of East Jerusalem. They appear under the letterhead of the Orient House, "the National Headquarters of the Palestinian people in Jerusalem."

A Website is headed "The Orient House for the International Community." Its first messages are a long list of alleged Israeli violations of the Geneva Conventions. The institution has recovered its former function as the Palestinian communications channel foreign missions, embassies, consulates and liaison offices in Jerusalem. But that is just the beginning. According to our sources, Abbas has just appointed a new Palestinian intelligence commander for the West Bank. He is Rashid Nafa, former chief of Palestinian special forces. The instructions he received from his boss are clear and were transmitted to the regional intelligence commanders. Their missions, they were told, focus on Jerusalem according to the following order of priorities set by Abu Mazen.

A. Priority Number One: Palestinian intelligence must assure itself of a presence and the freedom to operate in the city.

B. Priority Number Two: To contain the "Judaization" of Jerusalem and its environs.

The way Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon and defense minister Shaul Mofaz enthuse over their newfound collaboration with the Palestinian Authority, it would have been natural to assume that Abu Mazen had at long last instructed his intelligence chief to start cracking down on the terrorist networks infesting Palestinian West Bank cities. However, no such mission figured on Nafa's order of priorities, although he had plenty to say about strengthening Palestinian government in Jerusalem.

[Ophra]

I hope Palestine is returned to its rightful owners too.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .... but isn't this the whole point of the exercise :) ? A two State solution and Peace ?
Have you read the Road Map Medio ?? :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .... but isn't this the whole point of the exercise :) ? A two State solution and Peace ?
Have you read the Road Map Medio ?? :rolleyes:


Your irony gland must be misfiring. I meant Palestine - you know, where you're living right now.

[Mediocrates]

But no one cares if they kill each other. Whether or not there is ever a Palestinian civil war, no one will notice. All that will matter is that when they kill you and yours and you defend yourselves you'll be guilty of some kind of war crime or another. It's axiomatic. For 40 years the Palestinians have fomented internal dissent and fighting in order to draw you in and respond to the occasional attack on you.

[drdon]

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.08.07.PulloutPoster-X.gif

[Mira]

No Medio .... there is much more to Israel than "two fundamentally opposed views"..... I keep telling you guys to stop thinking Left and Right ... but you don't :)

To Mt. Herzl and back
By EVAN R. GOLDSTEIN
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The view was truly breathtaking in its exotic vastness. With mouth agape, I stood on the lip of the Machtesh Ramon (the Ramon Crater) in the southern Negev with a group of Israelis and Americans. We were one week into our 10-day tour across Israel. Already, my travel companions marveled at the intimacy of our group, which started out as a disparate collection of strangers and now, through some alchemic process catalyzed by rigorous physical challenges, singing, dancing, hour upon hour of discussion and very little sleep was transformed into some kind of new, organic being.

We shared a common Western cultural vernacular and the bonds of friendship were constructed with astonishing speed. Indeed, save for their charming accent and casually seductive mannerisms, I often found conversation with the more secularly inclined Israeli girls veering only slightly from the well-honed script familiar to any patron of the urban American pub scene.

On that day, at that moment of transcendent beauty atop the Ramon Crater, a jack-hammering rumble split the sky and shook the ground as three IAF F-16 jets buzzed across the horizon in a memorably tight, low-flying formation. Something about the union of natural beauty and raw military power left me shaken. I was deeply moved, intoxicated even, by the sight of this martial ideal of Jewish power. I admired the Magen David emblazoned on the tail of these elite aircrafts as they streaked by our vantage point. Not without some shame, I tugged at my IDF T-shirt and recalled a memorable passage from Philip Roth's The Counterlife:

"The American Jews get a big thrill from the guns. They see Jews walking around with guns and they think they're in paradise. Reasonable people with a civilized repugnance for violence and blood, they come on tour from America, and they see the guns and they see the beards, and they take leave of their senses. The beards to remind them of saintly Yiddish weakness and the guns to reassure them of heroic Hebrew force."

The Israelis were decidedly flummoxed by my fascination. I stood there wondering whether the pilots in fact had beards, while glancing at an elderly Israeli man within earshot who was shaking his head and murmuring something about needlessly burning another $30,000 in fuel.

The pressing reality of what is euphemistically referred to as "The Situation" is inescapable, but was relegated to the kind of detached political discussions those of us living in Washington, D.C. are all too familiar with.

On Mount Herzl that sunny afternoon I glimpsed for the first time a far more complex reality. Prior to even entering the grounds of the cemetery I noted that my typically loquacious and cheerful Israeli friends were ashen-faced and silent. Strolling through the finely manicured tiers of elevated gravesites I passed numerous burial plots for 14- and 15-year-olds who had perished fighting in the 1948 War of Independence. This is not something that weighs lightly on one's mind. The group finally convened in a shaded corner of the cemetery where, unexpectedly, the Israelis were invited – or just decided – to share their thoughts and stories.

WE AMERICANS stood there as the Israelis, with whom we had forged an easy if superficial bond over the course of our time together, told stories none of us could comprehend. If anything, I thought, this was the true language barrier that separated us. This handful of young Israelis, this random sampling, had experienced more violence and loss in their short lives than Americans can probably expect to encounter in the entirety of our own.

[Mira]

(Continued from page 1 of 2)

Our security guard, gun planted firmly on her shoulder and tears running down her cheeks, told of a terrorist attack in the middle of the night at her base in Gaza. Awoken by gunfire she found her three friends in various stages of dying and death. The terrorists also succeeded in knocking out the water supply on the base. She told us of attending three funerals in the next 24 hours wearing blood-stained pajamas.

The mind reels from these stories, the significance of which cannot be overstated. The fact that most of us were wearing sunglasses was irrelevant. I say with certainty that there was not a dry eye, Israeli or American, among us.

As we continued our ascent up Mt. Herzl in contemplative silence – past the graves of Golda Meir and Yitzhak Rabin – I marveled at how I was suddenly confronting my Israeli friends from across a gaping chasm of experiential violence, a gulf of heartbreak, blood and tears.

It occurred to me that we, as Americans, have the luxury of fantasy. We can feign ethnic toughness if we want to. Only an American Jew would write a book like Tough Jews, and only in America would it be published (Roger Cohen's sophomoric celebration of the sordidness, not Paul Breines's thoughtful, if misguided, 1990 study with the same title).

OUR ISRAELI counterparts are tough because they have to be. But the Israeli toughness I encountered during my travels should not be confused with moral and emotional stoicism or callousness. Those who shared stories that day on Mt. Herzl had political and social leanings that ran the spectrum from Left to Right, secular to religious, pro-disengagement, anti-disengagement, and ambivalence toward the disengagement. To admittedly varying degrees, they were not ideologically or religiously blinded to the fact that moral wrongs have been committed, and sometimes continue to be committed, in their name.

The philosopher Sidney Hook once wrote, "Firefighters tell us it is sometimes necessary to burn a house, or permit it to burn, to save a village." But he cautioned, "This does not bestow a license for arson on fools and fanatics. We must recognize the evil we do even if it is the lesser evil. But if it is truly the lesser evil, then those who condemn it, or who would have us do nothing at all, are morally responsible for the greater evil."

This is the morally fraught reality my Israeli friends wrestle with each and every day. In order to be blessed, says Spinoza, one must at least be.

I exited the cemetery mulling over how the pacifistic ideal is not so much a principle as it is a privilege, to all but the foolish or suicidal. On the flight back to New York I found myself thumbing through Scott Simon's recent novel Pretty Birds about his time covering the siege of Sarajevo. In one passage the novel's protagonist, Irena Zaric, tells the man who recruits her as a sniper: "I'm kind of a pacifist." His reply: "So am I. When the world permits."

The author is a Washington DC-based writer.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1123553940468

[Ophra]

Todah Mira. Bimet todah .