History in the making: Pull out from Gaza started today [Archive]

sharonbn

08-15-2005, 03:45 AM

Cabinet formally ratifies evacuation of Gush Katif
The cabinet Monday ratified the evacuation of Gush Katif, the largest settlement bloc in the Gaza Strip, as anti-disengagement activists held a protest outside Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office in Jerusalem, Army Radio reported.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612707.html

IDF hands eviction notices to Gaza, W. Bank settlers
The army began formal implementation of the disengagement plan Monday morning, as teams of soldiers moved into the northern Gaza settlement of Nissanit and handed settlers eviction notices, which will go into effect early Wednesday.

The step came hours after the Disengagement Law took effect at midnight, with the army sealing off the Strip and barring all Israeli citizens from entering the settlements slated for evacuation.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612451.html

Clashes, slashed tires in Gaza
In settlement of Neve Dekalim, pullout foes puncture tires of three army jeeps, clash with security forces; clashes also reported in northern West Bank
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127505,00.html

atricnorth

08-15-2005, 04:29 AM

well, not gonna comment on that, more concern about gaza being another afghanistan.

the article below will either put america in gaza or israel back in gaza again.

read the new thread under "canadians got hurt" , near the egypt and gaza border.

"in the news"

sharonbn

08-15-2005, 05:41 AM

Pull out time table, as was outlined in weekend newspapers:

15/8, Monday: IDF officers hands official letter to residents telling them they reside in a "military closed space" and should evacuate the premise ASAP. No plans for forceful actions.

16/8, Tuesday: Last day for self-initiated evacuation of residents of Gush Katif.

17/8, Wednesday: Start of last phase of evacuation:

1) The police and IDF are organized in seven rings of closure and protection. IDF will move 400 meters (~400 yards) out of Gush Katif outer fences to protect against possible Palestinian rocket firing. PA is said to establish its own protection ring, 200 meters further from the Israeli ring. Two combined command outposts are already set up, to coordinate actions in case of attacks from Palestinian terror cells. The protection rings will remain in place for at least three weeks, until the last civilian has left the region.

2) unarmed police forces will enter the settlements and will go from house to house. An evacuation squad will consist of 17 personnel lead by a "seren" officer (Captain). Each squad is designed to evacuate two houses in one day. The squads are prepared for the following scenarios:
a) The residents will evacuate willingly: The policemen will aid the residents in packing their house. Even babysitting services is included. After everything is packed, the resident will be shown to a bus that will take them out of GS. The houses will be sealed. An option is open for the residents to leave the house and come back and pack at a later date.
b) The residents will not open the door to the policemen: Soldiers will knock down the door by force, then proceed to offer peaceful evacuation to the residents.
c) The residents will commit a "passive" resistance: will sit down and refuse to move out: policemen and soldiers will carry the settlers to the busses. The house will be sealed and packing will take place on a later date.
d) The residents will commit an active resistance, violently refuse to move out: Special IDF forces will deal with these people. Weapons will include riot discharge arsenal. Arrests will be committed if resistance is not contained.

evacuation is planned to take around two weeks to complete. After that time, there will be time for packing houses that were not packed before. after that, the bulldozers will move in and demolish the houses. The entire region will be handed over to PA as one piece.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 07:39 AM

scattergood

08-15-2005, 09:09 AM

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127740,00.html

First Lebanon. They you can count on Syria, Iraq and all the rest soon. The Arab world will expel as many of its Palestinians as quickly as it can. You can count on most of them being packed off to Gaza. This will create a very public social calamity for the Palestinians who of course will blame the Israelis. The west, EU/UN/US will then pressure Israel to relax border controls and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will stream across the border creating a mass exodus which will overwhelm Israel. At the same time some domestic problem like assassination, civil uprising or mass terrorist attacks will cause Jordan to push many of its Palestinian 'refugees' into the West Bank creating an identical situation from the other side.

I moved up my timetable again from 5 years to 2. In 2 years there will not be an identifiable country called Israel. It will be one large anarchic broken mess with civil war, a failed ecnonomy, mass terrorist attacks leading to a near extinction of the Jews there. The region of Israel-Yesha-Jordan-Syria-Lebanon will collapse, there will be starvation and lack of water. The US will push its heavily subsidized Egyptian and Saudi allies to step in and occupy the region. All Jewish residents who are not expelled will be placed in camps 'for their own protection'.

The real issue that the Gaza withdrawl poses is IF and WHEN Arabs in Gaza will be responsible for themselves and bear the punishments for their actions. If they are never held responsible, then yes Medio's outlook, as dim is it is, may come true.

Alternatively, without any Israeli influence in Gaza, the case for even more massvie, military, violent repsonse to terrorist activites can be made. the '56 war was initiated to stop cross border attacks from Sinai. Israel, in response to Gazan based rocket and mortar fire, and after giving the PA time to fail to respond, may feel justified (and supported) in MASSIVE response. And by that I mean, taking over 1-3 miles inside the fence line, permanently. Building a new fence and creating a DMZ. And as long as attacks happen, just keep doing that.

It is clear the Palenstian Arabs DO NOT want peace. It is not possible to have peace with a partner who doesn't want it. Unless and until the PA takes substantive and clear action against those who do violence to Israel there will be not any peace. All Israel can do is change the situation on the ground until it is better to make peace than not.

Unfortunately, that is precisely what the Arabs are doing to Israel. Hopefully Israel can work itself into a postiion where it can do the same. Peace isn't made only by talking, for as Von Clausiwitz said "War is just another form of Diplomacy".

sharonbn

08-15-2005, 09:29 AM

I believe that Mahmud Abbas wants peace.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 09:41 AM

I believe he wants his head to stay attached to his neck. Abbas is a myth in Gaza and increasingly a figurehead in Ramallah. Just like Arafat was penned in to his compound as much by threats to his life by his own people as he was penned in bu the IDF, Abbas too is for the most part the mayor of his own little compound and not really given any credence by the millions of Palestinians who understand that corruption, greed and do-nothing-ism can't feed them and isn't even a comfort to them like the racist murderous screeds of Hamas and the other 16 'security' organizations that Arfat established to face down each other and create the very anarchy that's come back around to bite them. Come January Abbas will either win in a rigged election or he will lose and blame the Israelis for rigging it against him. In either case Hamas will become the predominate faction, it will purge the PLO executive committee and declare war on all the Jews in the West Bank and Jerusalem. On one point the Haaretzniks are correct. Hamas controlled Gaza will launch fewer attacks against Israel. It will instead pick the strategic option of destroying its own infrastructure and blaming it on the Jews in order to forment even more rabid antisemtism. This will cause the quartet to pressure Israel to give up control of Gaza's seacost and airspace for 'humanitarian purposes'.

RichardP

08-15-2005, 11:46 AM

Abbas, as said, wants to keep his head, more so than to keep the peace. Perhaps, I am wrong, as it would benefit Israel, if it were the latter. Nonetheless, this man cannot mend the schism of his own people, not to mention, Hamas and others who desire the head-wanker’s pole position.
As I read more of Mediocrates post, depression set in; as he, I believe, sees it for what it is and will be.
Especially the final sentence by Medio: This will cause the quartet to pressure Israel to give up control of Gaza's seacost and airspace for 'humanitarian purposes'.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 02:56 PM

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 02:57 PM

Thanks. I hate being right. Hate it.

sharonbn

08-15-2005, 05:20 PM

destroy its own infrastructure?
in two years Israel will unidentifyable?
oh yeah you are soooo right :rolleyes:
oh and you also have a nice sound solution to all our problems...

Sheherazade

08-15-2005, 05:32 PM

Is Dan Gillerman retarded?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/612908.html

The Gaza pullout should mark an end to UN hostility against Israel, UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman said on Monday, urging the world body to support the withdrawal as a historic move toward peace.

There is a method to the madness, I think. I don't know if anyon has mentioned this before. The pullout seems like a long term strategy by Sharon, even from his provocative visit to the Temple Mount. The emotional resistance of the settlers works well with this. Israel can now claim that that they have made incredible sacrifices in the name of peace. Hamas is emboldened and claims that the tactics of suicide bombings and terrorism is what precipitated the evacuation of Jews from Gaza. They will call for and most likely facilitate more suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon will then claim moral authority for an all out attack on Palestinians.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 06:12 PM

destroy its own infrastructure?
in two years Israel will unidentifyable?
oh yeah you are soooo right :rolleyes:
oh and you also have a nice sound solution to all our problems...

Spoken by the same people who two years ago equated Sharon with the devil.

sharonbn

08-15-2005, 06:22 PM

at least we don't make delusional prophecies

RichardP

08-15-2005, 06:31 PM

It could be the old reverse-psychology ploy: there's no doubt Hamas will never cease with their terrorist attacks on Israel. Then Israel can hammer the ****'S nearer to oblivion. Although, it is, to me, utterly wrong to surrender Gaza; it is a mortifying and a tragedy for those being uprooted from their homes. Moreover, the violence will never end, and Israel certainly cannot afford to sacrifice any more to these malevolent gits!
Nor, can we continuously dance to the world’s tune: because their opinion of Israel and Jews will never differ. The US appears to be isolating Israel; their once true ally now stands on the periphery watching Israel being dismantled bit by bit.
I hope I’m wrong… however, for the moment that’s the way I see it.

frizzer1

08-15-2005, 06:50 PM

There is a method to the madness, I think. I don't know if anyon has mentioned this before. The pullout seems like a long term strategy by Sharon, even from his provocative visit to the Temple Mount.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it because no one thinks Sharon is that smart.
The emotional resistance of the settlers works well with this. Israel can now claim that that they have made incredible sacrifices in the name of peace. Hamas is emboldened and claims that the tactics of suicide bombings and terrorism is what precipitated the evacuation of Jews from Gaza. They will call for and most likely facilitate more suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon will then claim moral authority for an all out attack on Palestinians.

You really are cynical about this whole affair,Tovah.Look, you may be right but why speculate?Would you also suggest that if Israel withdrew from the west Bank and turned over east Jerusalem to the pals that it was part of Sharon's grand plan to start an all-out war against them?

The facts are that israel has made incredible sacrifices for peace over and over again for decades and all the palestinians had to do was end the violence and negotiate.
And you are correct about hamas.They are claiming victory and that terror has worked, so there will be increased violence from Gaza after the disengagement and they promised that again this morning.
After the violence from Gaza israel will be forced to retaliate, and for my money they should not send in the army, just bomb the hell out of them until they realise it is not in their interest to continue with their violence.
I have always been for a palestinian state.I have always been for dialogue and negotiotion.But there has to be someone on the arab side willing to negotiate.5 wars later and they are still trying to destroy israel.
When is enough, enough? It's when they have Gaza and still pursue violence,that's when.

RichardP

08-15-2005, 06:58 PM

Well said, Frizzer; we have sacrificed too much already! Enjoyed the humour you e-mailed... will reply! Cheers!

frizzer1

08-15-2005, 07:03 PM

Although, it is, to me, utterly wrong to surrender Gaza; it is a mortifying and a tragedy for those being uprooted from their homes. Moreover, the violence will never end, and Israel certainly cannot afford to sacrifice any more to these malevolent gits!

It is always a tragedy when people are evicted from their homes and it's a sign of the hypocrisy of the world community that they only see it as a tragedy when arabs lose their homes.
Today I saw scenes of settlers and soldiers crying together.I'm not a settlement supporter but the settlers themselves were betrayed by the same government that encouraged them to go there in the first place.
I do think however that getting out of gaza is the right thing to do.A few thousand jews in the midst of a million and a half arabs is simply not going to work, long term.

The US appears to be isolating Israel; their once true ally now stands on the periphery watching Israel being dismantled bit by bit.
I hope I’m wrong… however, for the moment that’s the way I see it.

I don't see the US position that way Richard.And I think that Israel will ultimately be better off completely disengaged from the palestinians.

RichardP

08-15-2005, 07:08 PM

I hope you are right, and I am dead wrong about the US, Frizzer. I felt that way at one time, too: you are bang on with... "And I think that Israel will ultimately be better off completely disengaged from the palestinians."

Sheherazade

08-15-2005, 07:11 PM

I don't think anyone has mentioned it because no one thinks Sharon is that smart.

You really are cynical about this whole affair,Tovah.Look, you may be right but why speculate?Would you also suggest that if Israel withdrew from the west Bank and turned over east Jerusalem to the pals that it was part of Sharon's grand plan to start an all-out war against them?

The facts are that israel has made incredible sacrifices for peace over and over again for decades and all the palestinians had to do was end the violence and negotiate.
And you are correct about hamas.They are claiming victory and that terror has worked, so there will be increased violence from Gaza after the disengagement and they promised that again this morning.
After the violence from Gaza israel will be forced to retaliate, and for my money they should not send in the army, just bomb the hell out of them until they realise it is not in their interest to continue with their violence.
I have always been for a palestinian state.I have always been for dialogue and negotiotion.But there has to be someone on the arab side willing to negotiate.5 wars later and they are still trying to destroy israel.
When is enough, enough? It's when they have Gaza and still pursue violence,that's when.

Yes, I am quite cynical these days...having a relapse of existential despair.
More death, more destruction.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 07:14 PM

at least we don't make delusional prophecies

I'm batting waay over .500 so far.

frizzer1

08-15-2005, 07:17 PM

Yes, I am quite cynical these days...having a relapse of existential despair.
More death, more destruction.

Yep, I understand.And there is more to come and more after that.
Oh well, I guess we can hope for a better future for the next generation because this one won't see it.

Mediocrates

08-15-2005, 07:38 PM

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000001582&fid=942

70% blowout in 2005 disengagement budget

The original disengagement budget was NIS 2.2 billion, but actual costs will total NIS 3.2-3.7 billion.

Zeev Klein

Actual spending on disengagement in 2005 will be NIS 1-1.5 billion more than the amount budgeted. The original disengagement budget was NIS 2.2 billion, but actual costs will total NIS 3.2-3.7 billion, 70% more than the original budget.

Most of the overrun is for compensation payments, removal of agricultural equipment and property, temporary housing in the Nitzan project, and hotels and rented apartments for evacuated Jews.

The revised estimates were reportedly presented to ministers during the cabinet session last Tuesday that discussed the 2006 budget, details of which were leaked today to "Globes". A considerable proportion of the money is also designated for increased activity by the Israel Defense Forces and Israel Police.

Lower government spending will compensate for the NIS 1-1.5 billion increase in disengagement spending. The Ministry of Finance found that government spending this year, particularly interest costs, would be slightly less than originally planned. Total spending on the disengagement plan is still within the revised framework of NIS 7.5-8 billion. As of now, the NIS 2.2 billion disengagement budget for 2006 has not been changed; military and civilian evacuation for 2005-2006 will total NIS 6 billion. NIS 1.5-2 billion will remain for remaining evacuation costs in 2007. Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il (http://www.globes.co.il/) - on August 15, 2005

minusthejihad

08-15-2005, 09:39 PM

Spoken by the same people who two years ago equated Sharon with the devil.

Ouch, and if I remember, very ture.

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 12:24 AM

Ouch, and if I remember, very ture.
barking dogs

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 04:02 AM

Violent clashes in Neve Dekalim

Settlers, right-wing activists battle security forces as they attempt to prevent shipping containers from reaching homes in Gush Katif’s largest settlement. Large forces trying to maintain order

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3128219,00.html

Ophra

08-16-2005, 01:51 PM

I believe that Mahmud Abbas wants peace.

I believe that he does to .... he knows that this is the last chance for a Palestinian State . His bluster is just that ... bluster.
The question is whether he can control his extremists . Right now he is fooling them with false promises.
One thing is for sure .... if he can't control them then we can . Let's hope it doesn't get to that point .

Mira

08-16-2005, 02:12 PM

Ophra and sharonbn,

I think you guys have your heads in the clouds.

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 03:10 PM

Maybe, maybe not, time will tell.
So far, Abbas is on the right tracks.
anyways, our heads cannot be higher up than those who predict the destruction of Israel in the next two years, or that Pal great plan is to destroy its own infrastructure only to exert more pressure on Israel

redcake

08-16-2005, 03:32 PM

Maybe, maybe not, time will tell.
So far, Abbas is on the right tracks.

What tracks? He hasn't secured Gaza, and already he's asking for Jerusalem. Not even EAST Jerusalem, just Jeruselam. Maybe I'm just in the dark here, but what power has he exerted aside from getting UN Aid workers released from their afternoon kidnappings? Why should we pretend that Abbas isn't from the Fatah, PLO, PLFP, Muslim Brotherhood lineage?! So far the PLO are doing everything they said they would to eradicate Jews, and Abbas only continues that tradition.

Mediocrates

08-16-2005, 04:04 PM

Leave them to their strategems. It's all worked out so wonderfully so far.

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 04:10 PM

PA has deployed more than 1,000 troops around the Israeli colonies in order to prevent terror cells from sbotaging the pull out.

earlier this month, PS forces clashed with Hamas units over qassam firing. the PA forces prevented the firing of the rockets into Israel, the clashes resulted in injuries to both sides.

Partly as result of the clashes, Abbas has secured a cease fire agreement with the major terror movements, for the duration of the pull out.

PA has launched a publicity campaign in the Pal TV and newspapers, urging Pals to behave civilaized once the pull out ends, not to fire live ammunitin in the air, etc.

redcake

08-16-2005, 04:31 PM

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 11:20 PM

Sharon, you haven't addressed any of my questions. You've outline gestures that are fairly empty in light of the conitnued indoctrinization of schoolo children, the reality that Hamas out number the PA police, and with the full knowlegde that condeming violence in the newspapers has little weight on the people. So what has he done that you can point to beyond a gesture?
read it again
"earlier this month, PA forces clashed with Hamas units over qassam firing. the PA forces prevented the firing of the rockets into Israel, the clashes resulted in injuries to both sides."
in plain words - PA fought terrorism and forcefully prevented agression against Israel.
The deployment of PA forces around the settlements is designed to do the same thing.
if that is a "gesture" in your eyes, then your eyes are tight shut.

Another question... you used the term "Israeli colonies". Do you consider your self a collonialist? If so, why don't you give back your little plot of Tel Aviv and offer it up to the first Arab you can find?
That is ridicilous analogy.
If Naveh Dekalim is a colony, why can someone draw any conclusion about Tel Aviv?
Its like saying that if Algiria was a French colony, then Paris is also one.

Tel Aviv is part of the state of Israel, as is recognized by the world nations. Tel Aviv is not disputed land. Naveh Dekalim is a colony because it sits on land that is not part of the state of Israel, both legally and morally. not that Kazrin is not a colony, but at the very least that land was annexed by Israel, so you may have an argument there. Gaza strip was never annexed, so it is not Israeli land. there is no basis none whatsoever for Israeli settlements on foreign land, other then expansionism of course.

sharonbn

08-16-2005, 11:27 PM

Leave them to their strategems. It's all worked out so wonderfully so far.
wow, yet another well thought plan (not to mention original and insightful) for a complete solution for the 50 year conflict from the school of Medio.

redcake

08-16-2005, 11:53 PM

That is ridicilous analogy.
If Naveh Dekalim is a colony, why can someone draw any conclusion about Tel Aviv?
Its like saying that if Algiria was a French colony, then Paris is also one.

Tel Aviv is part of the state of Israel, as is recognized by the world nations. Tel Aviv is not disputed land. Naveh Dekalim is a colony because it sits on land that is not part of the state of Israel, both legally and morally. not that Kazrin is not a colony, but at the very least that land was annexed by Israel, so you may have an argument there. Gaza strip was never annexed, so it is not Israeli land. there is no basis none whatsoever for Israeli settlements on foreign land, other then expansionism of course.

Well, since you don't seem to be aware, let someone from the Diaspora give you some insight into the World view of Israel. You're a European white collonialist, posing as a Jew, and by living in Tel Aviv, you're living on stolen Palestinian Arab land, which must be liberated in it's entirety, and returned to the original landlords. Your head really is in the clouds.

sharonbn

08-17-2005, 12:51 AM

Well, since you don't seem to be aware, let someone from the Diaspora give you some insight into the World view of Israel. You're a European white collonialist, posing as a Jew, and by living in Tel Aviv, you're living on stolen Palestinian Arab land, which must be liberated in it's entirety, and returned to the original landlords. Your head really is in the clouds.
Well, I guess it all depends on your definition of "World view". I was describing the "world nations" as is demonstrated by the governments of these nations. Now lets see: they all voted for the establishment of the state of Israel back in 1947. They all established embassies in Israel (most of them in Tel Aviv 'colony', btw) they sign diplomatic agreements with the government of Israel. Generally speaking, they regard Israel as a fully soveraign state.

I don't recall in the 50 years of Israeli independance not even a single incident when a leader of state declared Israel as a European white colony living on stolen land, or a government acting towards Israel as if it is an illegal entity.

The same governments did express numerous times their view of the status of the Israeli colonies on Gaza strip. They failed to include Tel Aviv in the same category.

I would guess your description fits the avarage European dimwit. Maybe it also fits the view of some official clercks, like the Mayor of a certain European capital. That's about it. As important as this view is (NOT!) it does not play a factor in the legality of the state of Israel, and needless to say, in the satus of the city of Tel Aviv.

redcake

08-17-2005, 01:10 AM

I don't recall in the 50 years of Israeli independance not even a single incident when a leader of state declared Israel as a European white colony living on stolen land, or a government acting towards Israel as if it is an illegal entity.

Which is proof you can live in Israel and be totally clueless.

It happens nearly every day at the UN. H'bout the 2001 UN world Conference Against Racism, where Zionism was the main topic? Zionism, under their perverted definition, would definetly conclude that you are a settler, in Tel Aviv. Go visit the Free Palestine forums, and open your eyes.

How many of the 22 Arabic States even recognize Israel's existance, anyway?

Who is applauding the Gaza move? They're saying it's not enough, and implying this is really an Israeli scheme.

redcake

08-17-2005, 01:11 AM

n/m double post.

sharonbn

08-17-2005, 01:52 AM

It happens nearly every day at the UN.
Israel gets condemnations for its actions. It does not mean the UN regards Israel is an illegal colonialist entity. One of the condemnations was against Israeli occupation of Gaza. Please show me where the UN made a resolution about the illegality of Tel Aviv.

H'bout the 2001 UN world Conference Against Racism, where Zionism was the main topic?
First of all, Zionism was the main topic in the conference of the unofficial organizations. The official conference dealt with many issues and there was no resolution that equated Zionism with Racism.

Go visit the Free Palestine forums, and open your eyes.
Already answered that. The fact that many Pals do not recognize Israel's right to exist did not escape my eyes. there is, however, absolutely zero relevance to Pals POV and this little futile discussion.

How many of the 22 Arabic States even recognize Israel's existance, anyway?
Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain and Qatar among others. and since 1998 - the Palestinian Authority.

redcake

08-17-2005, 02:07 AM

Wake up. The rallying cry is "Today Gaza, Tommorow the West Bank, and Jerusalem...then beyond". The sentiment is EVERYWHERE. These are the moderates talking. Do homes in Tel Aviv have their own bomb shelters? Then this conversation isn't futile. You're just severely uninformed.

Israel's opponents do not differentiate between you and the Gaza settlers. Most don't even know the difference on a map.

The Jews of Gaza are being called ZEALOTS on Fox News, as an acceptable term....look up the origins of that word, and tell me that connotation doesn't effect YOU a resident in Tel Aviv. Israeli's are shown crying on world TV. Tell me that doesn't effect your future soveriengty in Israel.

sharonbn

08-17-2005, 02:50 AM

As I said before:
The legality of Israel's existence is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period.
The soveraignity of Israel over the city of Tel Aviv is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period.
Rallies, public polls and online forums do not change these simple facts.

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

TV news from Gaza do not affect my future as a resident of Tel Aviv. I have only positive feelings today. A historical injustice is being corrected. This move will make Israel safer and will only help the strengthen Israeli image and stance in the world.

Gilgamesh

08-17-2005, 03:07 AM

As I said before:
The legality of Israel's existence is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period. After the pull out capbility demonstration, Sharon proved the world that no wish of destruction is impossible. Very soon, demands for other parts of Israel will follow.

The soveraignity of Israel over the city of Tel Aviv is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period. Posting twice the same BS dosen't make it true.

Again, the majority of the Arabs consider the rest of Israel as occupied just as well. The far left demands to abolish Israel as a nation state, meaning exactly ending Jewish sovereignity over Israel. Very soon, you'll find the rest of Europe and parts of America supporting this claim. Sharon proved them that Jews are stupid enough and self hating enough to surrender even Tel Aviv.

BTW, there are couple of Nazi trolls roaming free. Handle them please.

Rallies, public polls and online forums do not change these simple facts. These things give one information, or insight. what to do with this is another matter entirely.

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. Nope, these are right, you claim is false. You are in denail of reality. A common Jewish illness, most assosicated with diaspora. You think like a Yehudi Ga'luti. This are the exact feelings used by all of our enemies to dismiss our natural fear and natural sense of self presevation. In other words, your ideas are un-natural.

In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people. It wasn't always so, and no reason to belive it might stay that way for long. Does the expression Mish'enet Ka'ne Ra'tzutz rings you any bell?

TV news from Gaza do not affect my future as a resident of Tel Aviv. I have only positive feelings today. A historical injustice is being corrected. This move will make Israel safer and will only help the strengthen Israeli image and stance in the world. You will find out how wrong you are. The pull out is merely a symptom of greater danger or psychological maladi, that might point at our doom.

redcake

08-17-2005, 03:42 AM

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

You're so naive it's frightening....
so read this clearly...
the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
world opinion is that of a moral equivalency, and people like yourself have egged them...
well watch now, because it's going to hit you in the face once this precedent for returning Jewish land goes into effect....
if 1967 is unlawful, then 1948 was REALLY unlawfull....
Israel's soveriegnty is COMPLETELY in dispute.

Ophra

08-17-2005, 04:08 AM

You're so naive it's frightening....
so read this clearly...
the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
world opinion is that of a moral equivalency, and people like yourself have egged them...
well watch now, because it's going to hit you in the face once this precedent for returning Jewish land goes into effect....
if 1967 is unlawful, then 1948 was REALLY unlawfull....
Israel's soveriegnty is COMPLETELY in dispute.

Well redcake, I'm not naive ..... I know exactly how much we are loved .... and I don't give a damn. Nor do I give a damn what American Jews on this forum are telling me.
What Sharon has done is exactly right for Israel and I support him 100% .... whether Peace or outright war is an outcome of this lies entirely in the hands of the Palestinians . Either way Israel's secular democracy will continue , and that is all that I care about ;)

sharonbn

08-17-2005, 05:17 AM

the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
OK, I will admit I don't know as much about public opinion in America as someone who lives there. If that's how you describe it, then that's how it is.

However, I do not believe the American gov't will change its support of Israel. The support withstood darker times when Israel was literally the lepard of the entire world. This is not the situation today. Israeli soveraignity is not dispuetd by any gov't in the western world. I think i'm beginning to repeat myself now.

Regarding what will happen after the pull out is everybody's guess. However, the notion that because Israel withdrew from GS it will be required to be dismantled completely is absurd.

First of all, the eyes of the world will turn to the Pals. the burdeon is on their shoulders to prove they can sustain order and central control in the region. No one in the world will demand Israel of any new concessions until the situation in Gaza is clear and stable. If central control will collapse in Gaza and the region will become gangland, Israel can and indeed should halt all further withdrawals. If things get really really ugly and Gaza turns out to be a nest of terror cells that constatnly attack Israeli civilian targets, then I guess Israel will have to re-conquer the strip. My guess is that Abbas has the will and possibly the power to maintain his control over the region. He certainly needs the cooperation of the extremist groups like Hamas, but at least until now, he seems to be on top of things. In my eyes, Abbas sems to be a real shroud and clever negotiator and manipulator capable of achieving his goals.

Secondly, again, until now, the Israeli pull out rips nothing but praises from the world leaders as well as the media. What will happen inthe future is... well... in the future. and its like Ophra said - We are accustomed to being hated worldwide. Israel sould do what's best for its future.

frizzer1

08-17-2005, 10:45 AM

First of all, the eyes of the world will turn to the Pals. the burdeon is on their shoulders to prove they can sustain order and central control in the region.

What else is new? The pals can start bombing Israel the day after disengagement and the world won't say boo.

No one in the world will demand Israel of any new concessions until the situation in Gaza is clear and stable. If central control will collapse in Gaza and the region will become gangland, Israel can and indeed should halt all further withdrawals. If things get really really ugly and Gaza turns out to be a nest of terror cells that constatnly attack Israeli civilian targets, then I guess Israel will have to re-conquer the strip.

And the world will condemn Israel for invading the poor people of gaza and the UN will hold emergency meetings and pal spokespeople,( usually beautiful and eloquent women.....that's for another thread), wil turn up on all the TV networks.And the campuses will erupt with anti-israel campaigns.

My guess is that Abbas has the will and possibly the power to maintain his control over the region. He certainly needs the cooperation of the extremist groups like Hamas, but at least until now, he seems to be on top of things. In my eyes, Abbas sems to be a real shroud and clever negotiator and manipulator capable of achieving his goals.

You're right about one thing..you're guessing.
We will find out, but right now we don't know what this man's true intentions are.

pelsar

08-17-2005, 12:15 PM

you know what missing in this thread.....the reality from the secular point of view:

First of all the quantity of soldiers and equipment that were required to protect such places like kfar drom was staggering......its a lot easier to to defend israel from places that are not surrounded by a sea of palestenians who are only a sniper shot away.

by being outside with a nice fence israel will save millions of dollars and lives by being "outside". The fence is a clear border....those who climb over it are "fair game".

Far more interesting is the exposure of just how far our religious right has gone.....way over the line. Attacking IDF soldiers, and policmen...these kids are out of control. This exposure may put some sanity back in our govt in terms of the way they've been educating the youth in the westbank...where their messianic version of religion is far more important than the israeli govt......if they 're not stopped now, we'll have our own version of the "taliban"

and finally not only do the palestenians get their 'chance" but by doing so they get to show us what they're all about. If they succeed in making a pseudo state that works....israel will be impressed and willing to give them more...if they cant make a go of it and make some kind of hamasnik state...well then were done with them and they can just stew there in their own stinking mess....Knowing this will keep much of israel together...and its a price those in Gaza have to pay.

Mira

08-17-2005, 12:31 PM

I'm in agreement with everything you've said, pelsar, but I'll point out that my concerns have mostly to do with the area being so overwhelmingly small that every bit of territory that is lost hurts Israel strategically and Israel got nothing in return for relinquishing gaza.

pelsar

08-17-2005, 01:00 PM

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

water

08-17-2005, 01:44 PM

wow what a people
what a beautful sight men and women in the army standing the cry with the settlers and continuing to do the job at hand with compassion
you are a nation to look up to
I can understand both sides the settlers beleive one thing and the govorment has to do what it feels is right for every one in the country
it is a hard place to be and i pray for both sides
thank you for being who you are as a nation
you give hope the this whole world isn't going to hell in a hand basket

Mira

08-17-2005, 01:57 PM

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

It's all perspectve, right? With Syrian missiles at the border capable of reaching almost anywhere inside Israel, how important is the Golan? You outlined in your first post all the good strategic reasons for leaving gaza, but there are many increased dangers that come with this. Leaving Gaza IMO was the right thing to do, but it is a retreat and not a negotiated withdrawl.

Mediocrates

08-17-2005, 02:14 PM

It has to do with how you bargain and what you bargain with. As of now there is one and only one tool in the Israeli drawer: expulsion of other Jews. That is how they will be able to respond to any and all demands. Just like the Palestinian foreign policy consists of BLAAAAAAAAAM!, the Israeli response can only be RETREAT. And whether it's fair or appropriate really doesn't matter. What matters is that it's self limiting. It's a weak position to be in from a negotiations perspective. Maybe that doesn't matter though, perhaps the whole notion of 'peace and dialog' the Haaretzniks are in love with is a stupid fairytale. But I doubt and most rational people doubt that unilateral action will work in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the interelationships are too complicated for Gordian Knots.

redcake

08-17-2005, 02:14 PM

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

Pelsar, while i agree with aspects of your argument, I've come to realize the bigger message to the Palestinians is that if you kill 1000 Jews you get Gaza, and probably the West Bank. Does that mean if you kill 100,000 you get Israel? We've given them the strategic front to try and find out.

pelsar

08-17-2005, 02:21 PM

I've come to realize the bigger message to the Palestinians is that if you kill 1000 Jews you get Gaza, and probably the West Bank. Does that mean if you kill 100,000 you get Israel? We've given them the strategic front to try and find out.

that is probably the only negative aspect of the withdrawl....and it is a problem..one the other hand..and we are weighing both pros and cons....we left the Sinai...and that was good...we got out of lebanon and that too was good....I'm not a prophet, but in terms of what weights heavier.....it makes sense to me to get out and secure our southern border with a better defensive position...... (as well as my other noted reasons) will make a better future....or not...but then there are no guarentees in life and our present situation wasnt very good

Gilgamesh

08-17-2005, 02:24 PM

you know what missing in this thread.....the reality from the secular point of view: I am secular, and a staunt Zionist!

First of all the quantity of soldiers and equipment that were required to protect such places like kfar drom was staggering......its a lot easier to to defend israel from places that are not surrounded by a sea of palestenians who are only a sniper shot away. The role of the Army is to protect Jews, citizens, tax payers. Not to do demogrphic survays.

Pull out, or stumpee which is a better description, does not serve anything, but the easy way out. Why fight if one can run? Give up the air force and armor brigade, cause we can run faster without them.

Our generals and politicians proved they rather out cast ignore and step on certain kind of people rather then to do their job and fight the enemy.
Why risk the future with the high court while fighting terrorists? When one can get the high court backing for kicking fellow jews in the guts?

And if money is the subject of this chat, what about the money WASTED for sending tenth of tousands of troop to quell a violance that never happend? The media promissed us rivers of blood over the pull out, and nothing. Full scale demonization of good people for nothing, mobilizing the entire IDF for nothing. How about that?

by being outside with a nice fence israel will save millions of dollars and lives by being "outside". The fence is a clear border....those who climb over it are "fair game". Both in Sadir and in Miluim, I serve at the fense, as Mo'di'in Sade. I know the fence. And here goes the paradox:
1. Arabs cross the fense easy, parash turky in seconds, in a car. Only a bullet can stop them. Open fire orders forbid opening fire, and no officer whishes to go to jail over couple of dead Arab smugglers.
2. Had there been proper open fire orders, there was no need for expansive fance.

Far more interesting is the exposure of just how far our religious right has gone.....way over the line. Attacking IDF soldiers, and policmen...these kids are out of control. This exposure may put some sanity back in our govt in terms of the way they've been educating the youth in the westbank...where their messianic version of religion is far more important than the israeli govt......if they 're not stopped now, we'll have our own version of the "taliban" BS! Typical goverment propaganda. See less local news, and you'll get the real prespective. There is nothing wrong with the settler religious community, the media over reacting, lieing and exagurating the reality.

and finally not only do the palestenians get their 'chance" but by doing so they get to show us what they're all about. you mean that the last decade of violance were not enough of a proof to you what the "Palestinian"s are about?

If they succeedare in making a pseudo state that works....israel will be impressed and willing to give them more...if they cant make a go of it and make some kind of hamasnik state...well then were done with them and they can just stew there in their own stinking mess....Knowing this will keep much of israel together...and its a price those in Gaza have to pay.Does it? Like where do you think is Gaza? New Zealand? When there were troubles in Lebanon, we got shelled, Katyusha rockets day and night all over the north. And when gaza gets messy, will we be spared?

RoofRabbit

08-17-2005, 07:10 PM

you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
I don't know where you live, but I'd move if I were you. At least in my area, the supporty is for Israel as it should be.

The Reason Israel is having so much trouble with Gaza is:

Jdg 2:2 On condition that you should not make a league with the inhabitants of this land, but should throw down their altars: and you would not hear my voice: why have you done this?
Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I would not destroy them from before your face; that you may have enemies, and their gods may be your ruin.

The Arabs should have been kicked out of Gaza to start with and that should have happended with world support.

redcake

08-17-2005, 07:45 PM

I don't know where you live, but I'd move if I were you. At least in my area, the supporty is for Israel as it should be.

I live in NYC. Maybe you're right, Jews should move to the South.

pelsar

08-17-2005, 09:55 PM

Both in Sadir and in Miluim, I serve at the fense, as Mo'di'in Sade. I know the fence. And here goes the paradox:
1. Arabs cross the fense easy, parash turky in seconds, in a car. Only a bullet can stop them. Open fire orders forbid opening fire, and no officer whishes to go to jail over couple of dead Arab smugglers.
2. Had there been proper open fire orders, there was no need for expansive fance.

BS! Typical goverment propaganda. See less local news, and you'll get the real prespective. There is nothing wrong with the settler religious community, the media over reacting, lieing and exagurating the reality.

Does it? Like where do you think is Gaza? New Zealand? When there were troubles in Lebanon, we got shelled, Katyusha rockets day and night all over the north. And when gaza gets messy, will we be spared?

...i was waiting for your response......I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value"

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive.

Ophra

08-17-2005, 10:32 PM

...i was waiting for your response......I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value"

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive.

Yo !! Am I glad to see you .... you are not the only secular on here pelsar, but we can do with all the help we can get ;)

"' and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable. "'

100% agree ... most of what I know about the HillTop Youth I learnt from my sons although I did do some reading up about them on-line ... they and the Khanists have their own forums, it's unbelievable what they actually say on-line.. pure sedition.

"" Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value" ""

When my oldest son was there , being piggy in the middle between the two inhabitants of Hebron , he spoke Arabic to a small Palestinian child and handed out some sweets.... "they" spat on him and cursed him ... he has never forgotten that .. neither will I.

"" the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have. ""

Ditto that !!

Gilgamesh

08-17-2005, 11:19 PM

I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)... I hope you haven't ment to teach me what Palsar is.

and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable. The mental state of certain individuals among the settler community, is totally irrelevent. Even mad Jews are entitle to full defense.

All that matter is their national and ethnic identity as Jews in Israel. You will gaurd a mental institution, once you get the order. You must never choose your assignment objective.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Nice words to disguise an ideas of ideological purity, single nation = single mind. While you are at it, would you condone the estabilishment of a thought police?

Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians... Why should I care about the ideas of some teenager? Maybe he said so just to upset you? this information is totally irrelevent.

It is exactly the same as for me to dislike fighting terrorism cause the terrorists murder communists and anarchists in Shenkin St, Tel Aviv. Some Jews mental condition is irrelevent to our duties and consideration.

seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value" meaningless and irrelevent. I think the far left is the one who dehumise and under respect the Arabs. I think the far left is the one who is really racist toward Arabs, looking at them from superiority POV and denying then any responsibility to their own actions.

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have. Sorry, all hard I tried, I can't understand what the settelement enterprise has to do with your educational failurs as a father. If your kids skip school and do drugs it has more to do with the far left ideas of totall lieberalism rather then some skewed minds of some people in the far right.

The real Zionist right I am a member of, has nothing to do with either superiority or inferiority complexes toward the Arabs. All we care about is pushing the interests of the Jewish people above all, for one simple reason: No one else is expecting to do this job for us. We must care for our own just like anybody else, and never become dependent or expecting from others to care about us and our interests. Days of the diaspora are over! Jews have a goverment, a mission and an army.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive. Actually fighting terrorism, actualy killing terrorists would cost us far less then any alternative. Since the goverment decided we voters are going to vote for them anyway, they avoid the effort and prefer just to run away.

pelsar

08-18-2005, 12:14 AM

do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...
________________
Why should I care about the ideas of some teenager? Maybe he said so just to upset you? this information is totally irrelevent.

I was talking about my commander in my reserves (mem peh-now mah gad)..who lives in neve dekalim...who was totally embarrassed/horrified by the way the IDF treated them at the entrances...and by the youth from the westbank in their settlement

apparently both Maor and many of his neighbors dont seem to agree with you...and they actually live(d) in gaza...

I see your using the classic "cult" technqiue: rather than take new information and attempt to understand and/or use it to modify ones posistion you simply dismiss it:

sounds pretty much like a closed mind to me:

lets see some of your comments;
"information irrelvant"
I must be a "leftest" therefore I can be dismissed
"failed father".... (due to my concerns of the israeli society)

etc etc etc.....

.......tsk tsk tsk....hate/biotry is not really part of the judiaisim that i was brought up with...but it seems to be a part of israeli version...how long will it be before you call me some kind of "nazi" terrorist sympathizer?....etc?

oh and finally...this does "give you away"

The real Zionist right I am a member of.....
oh I hadnt realized that one group has the rights to the "real zionism" and all us others are mere fakes. I'll remember that the next time I visit the cemetary and say kaddish for my fallen friends.... that they died for fake zionism....btw..thats the definition of "superiority"...otherwise known as bigotry/racism and that sure as hell is not the reason I fought and still fight for.

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 12:39 AM

I was talking about my commander in my reserves (mem peh-now mah gad)..who lives in neve dekalim...who was totally embarrassed/horrified by the way the IDF treated them at the entrances...and by the youth from the westbank in their settlement

apparently both Maor and many of his neighbors dont seem to agree with you...and they actually live(d) in gaza...

I see your using the classic "cult" technqiue: rather than take new information and attempt to understand and/or use it to modify ones posistion you simply dismiss it:

sounds pretty much like a closed mind to me:

lets see some of your comments;
"information irrelvant"
I must be a "leftest" therefore I can be dismissed
"failed father".... (due to my concerns of the israeli society)

etc etc etc.....

.......tsk tsk tsk....hate/biotry is not really part of the judiaisim that i was brought up with...but it seems to be a part of israeli version...how long will it be before you call me some kind of "nazi" terrorist sympathizer?....etc?
Communism was never part of my Jewish up bringing... tsk tsk tsk

For however I really respect your militrary record in a advanced reckon unit, it gives you ZERO points in judging the facts, let alone ideas. There is no reason for you to consider yourself superior above anyone this forum.

Infact, you avoided any of the issues I adressed to you. What the matter? Too much of challange?

The information you provided is really irrelevent, and has little to do with anything other then provide us some information on personal feelings and experiances you may have had.

Mira

08-18-2005, 12:43 AM

Gil - I've read your posts on this board and TJ for a long time, and you remind me in some ways a lot of Begin, and I mean that as a compliment. A secular Israeli who has taken time to learn the language of the devout, you seem more than anyone else here to understand why Israel was and still is so necessary. If only there were a few more million like you in Israel who have such a genuine love for all our people...

Ophra - You are part of the problem.

Pelsar - I agree with you that there is something negative happening within Judaism. Perhaps it's a combination of trying to make sense of such a widespread destruction of the Jewish people in the last century and a backlash from the "effects" of Arab-Islamic nationalism that has poisoned some devout Jews. Some of our people seem to understand the Palestinian extremists more than the rest of us. Both appear incapable of overcoming the devastation from an irreversible loss in the past. Whatever it is that fuels all this extremism, I hope that we will be able to work it out over time, both on the Israeli side and on the Arab side. But I wouldn't underestimate what's going on here or what it will take to move beyond this point.

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 12:46 AM

oh I hadnt realized that one group has the rights to the "real zionism" and all us others are mere fakes. I'll remember that the next time I visit the cemetary and say kaddish for my fallen friends.... that they died for fake zionism....btw..thats the definition of "superiority"...otherwise known as bigotry/racism and that sure as hell is not the reason I fought and still fight for.
Ever heard of the Had-Nes? (one flag) I'd eleborate once I feel like it.
There can be only one kind of Zionism, and the rest is a fake.
Our fallen comrades haven't died for fake Zionism, or else they wouldn't fight on the first place. But you already know that. You only press the buttom to trigger emotions and shut down the thinking part of most people. Ain't workin, sorry.

What the heck "superiority" has to do with anything? Your very attempt to hang on the words of some lunie teenager and paste it upon all other right wingers is over simplistic and do not become you.

pelsar

08-18-2005, 01:00 AM

gil..your right I used "simplistic language and generalizations" to describe your remarks....because those were exactly the kind I recieved by you. (leftest etc)

but your "one kind of zionism" and the rest is a fake" remark...totally removes you from the ideal of a democratic israel. Perhaps that too you disagree with...but in my world we have a lot more room for all kinds of values and opinions...(up to a certain point)

my experiences are precisly the point...what one sees on TV, hears from friends, reads is not quite the same (and I think you know that from your own time spent in the army)....much of my opinions are based precisly on time i've spent in gaza with a unit made up of right/left and middle (even a jew for jesus thrown in...our medic). Our arguments, discussions and our missions out together show us how we can respect each other, fight together and still believe in different things....and all of us see the variations in "zionism"...without that superiour feeling that "mine is the RIGHT and TRUE"..and everybody else is fake.....

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 01:19 AM

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 01:30 AM

gil..your right I used "simplistic language and generalizations" to describe your remarks....because those were exactly the kind I recieved by you. (leftest etc) Forget about my opinions, you attempt to paint the whole right wing, anybody who wear a Kippah, think right or wear an orange ribbon, to be a hater. This is what I ment. You take the words of some fool, or even a bunch of those, and convince yourself everybody is like them, no middle ground. You consider the minority to be the majority. Thats wrong!

but your "one kind of zionism" and the rest is a fake" remark...totally removes you from the ideal of a democratic israel. Perhaps that too you disagree with...but in my world we have a lot more room for all kinds of values and opinions...(up to a certain point) One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology, most noteably Communism (but also brands of socialism). At the end of the day, Ben Guirion adopted many of the key ideas of Jabotinsky, including the Had-Nes and Iron Wall. In simple: A lefite must choose between his love for Arabs (worker class comeradship) and love for himself, when Arabs are after the leftie blood as well. When Stalin in USSR turned against Zionism, the communist bacame (again) anti-Zionist.

Since I am on the right, I don't have such dillemahs. I have no love or understanding for Arabs who wish to kill me.

Our arguments, discussions and our missions out together show us how we can respect each other, fight together and still believe in different things....and all of us see the variations in "zionism"...without that superiour feeling that "mine is the RIGHT and TRUE"..and everybody else is fake..... non-Zionist and even guys who can't read properly, let alone think clearly, serve in the army. One do not have the full understanding of the Zionist revolution in order to carry out his mission.

Ophra

08-18-2005, 01:32 AM

"" Ophra - You are part of the problem. ""

Thanks Mira ..... I can't return the compliment because you are not part of the problem Mira.... you are back in America ... easy way out Mira .. easy way out ;)

Me and mine have been here since day one Mira... never left, not once Mira.
I've never been to America Mira... I know nothing about you Diaspora Jews , only what I have learned on here .. but what I have seen I do not like.

You cannot force your ways and your religion on us Mira .... and that is exactly what you religious Zionists have been attempting to do these last 30 years . It's no dern wonder you are all hated so much outside of Israel... now you are surprised we hate your messianic madness here :rolleyes:

Ophra

08-18-2005, 01:46 AM

Here Mira ... enjoy :

Extortion by sanctity

The High Court of Justice is to rule in the coming days on a petition by the rabbi of the settlement of Elei Sinai, Yishai Bar-Chen, who is asking the state to move the synagogue building in its entirety from the Gaza Strip to within the Green Line. This is a disingenuous petition which, like other petitions of the settlers, makes sophisticated use of liberal principles like individual and community rights in order to carry out deranged messianic acts.

The walls of the synagogues, their floors, roofs and any other part of the structure in which people pray, are neither sacred nor sacrosanct. There is no reason not to take the buildings apart, sell them or make any other use of them the state sees fit. In any case, the communities will bring out the synagogue's sacred objects and memorial plaques. But moving entire buildings just because they served for a time as synagogues will create a dangerous precedent that will show up the weakness of the institution of statehood in the face of the settlers' emotional blackmail.

This blackmail is in operation all across the ritual board that stems from the teachings of the Yesha rabbis, Chabad and the like. They have sanctified not only the furrows of the earth, but the trees and the rocks. Neveh Dekalim is suddenly defined as a "holy place." The religious college may not be touched because it contains sacred objects, abandoning trees planted in Gush Katif is a serious infraction of halakha (Jewish law), for which transgressors will be punished in the world to come, and on and on with other inventions of this ilk, in the twilight zone between the devotion of the gullible and the simple, and cynical exploitation by religious politicians of their religion and their religiosity.

The exploitation of the objects is nothing compared to the repulsive and well advertised exploitation of the worship of God. Leading this line, together with the extremists of the Gush, are the thousands of infiltrators who came to the Gaza Strip - they and their rabbis. They make sure to show up for morning prayers just when the army has to open the gate, to call for grace after meals or afternoon prayers just when it is time to pack or get on the bus. They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around.

The soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces and the police are under tremendous physical and emotional pressure. The restrained and responsible manner in which they are dealing with the task shows over and over to every citizen of Israel the meaning of deep commitment to the flag of Israel and the symbol of the menorah on their uniforms.

The cynical emotional and religious blackmail of the settlers and the infiltrators, taken from the dubious inventory of shallow and kitschy messianic ritual (some of which is tainted by truly non-Jewish symbols), nevertheless manages to reverberate with large segments of the public.

The High Court justices will be wrong if they let this noise influence them. The transfer of even one wall as a holy object will be enough to plant the seal of approval on false-messianism, against the danger of which the state has finally began to defend itself.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/614017.html

pelsar

08-18-2005, 01:54 AM

Forget about my opinions, you attempt to paint the whole right wing, anybody who wear a Kippah, think right or wear an orange ribbon, to be a hater.

Since I am on the right, I don't have such dillemahs. I have no love or understanding for Arabs who wish to kill me.

non-Zionist and even guys who can't read properly, let alone think clearly, serve in the army. One do not have the full understanding of the Zionist revolution in order to carry out his mission.

you keep trying sooo hard to show that "I hate the right wing"....since your talking about my family and friends...I get the feeling you dont get out much.

again your attempting to show your "surperiority" with " i must have a dilemma about understanding arabs who wish to kill me"....where does that assumption come from?...I actually have no problem with killing them.... but then you've made a few more assumptions about me...just keeping within your sterotypes so that you dont have to put forth an actual argument....

and it appears you have that "messianic zionism" about you....but then that also puts you in that position of "I AM RIGHT...EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG"..and consequently i dont even have to explain myself using logic.....

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....

pelsar

08-18-2005, 02:06 AM

best show in town

"They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around."

funny how it reminds me of intifada I....we would watch the palestenians wait for the CNN truck then they would light their tires...if the CNN truck kept going..they would just leave

It so reminds many of us of "theater".....and yes I've talked to residents of those in gaza who also have similar remarks....

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 02:17 AM

you keep trying sooo hard to show that "I hate the right wing"... I read your posts, its not hard at all to prove your hate to the right.

again your attempting to show your "surperiority" with " i must have a dilemma about understanding arabs who wish to kill me"....where does that assumption come from?...I actually have no problem with killing them.... but then you've made a few more assumptions about me...just keeping within your sterotypes so that you dont have to put forth an actual argument.... I gave you a plenty, you've answered none!

and it appears you have that "messianic zionism" about you....You are dead wrong. I am not religious, I don't even were a Kippah. Had you seen me walking down the street you'd assume me to be a far leftie, if not for my orange ribbon on my back pack.

but then that also puts you in that position of "I AM RIGHT...EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG"..and consequently i dont even have to explain myself using logic..... A short lesson on logic: By defenition, there can only be one truth, one reality. 2+2=4, always. 1 < 5 always, not sometimes. It is clear cut and simple fact. There for, I am right, meaning others who think different, are wrong.

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....so? What does that has to do with anything? Had I got the profile, I'd fit right in among you guys. I could even be you mem-mem, (only they sent me to Modi'in Sade, Riflemen 03 training, in Shivta boot camp).

pelsar

08-18-2005, 02:25 AM

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....

_________________________
so? What does that has to do with anything?

it has to do with everything...that a democratic society stands for.....the ability to tolerate and work together with people that you disagree with..and yes to accept that "your truths" are not the "truths" of your neighbors and respect him for that .....and your "one truth" is simply a belief...hardly 1+1 =2....

but you show how narrow minded you are with

"One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology"

zionism, like all ideals, never was a single entity...from the very beginning it has had various interpretations...your "purity" of the idea...is nothing short of cult/messianic mentality...and no way THE TRUTH!

Gilgamesh

08-18-2005, 02:43 AM

it has to do with everything...that a democratic society stands for.....the ability to tolerate and work together with people that you disagree with..and yes to accept that "your truths" are not the "truths" of your neighbors and respect him for that .....and your "one truth" is simply a belief...hardly 1+1 =2....

but you show how narrow minded you are with so sorry i can't care for other considerations such as political fasion, or PC sensitivities. I am not nice nor do I try to be one. I only believe in what can advance my goals, and the interests of my group. I have no patiance to fake up to date political shams. My interest in politics is the result from wishing a better future, not to advance my social standing through compliance to political norms.

Therefor, I don't care for nerratives or opinions or compromises. I try to refine the truth. The forum is only a tool for inner-inspection. If there are multitude of turth, why should anybody decide anything? What worth one decision over the next? Why care about what other people think if their opinions are as good or as correct as mine?

"One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology"

zionism, like all ideals, never was a single entity...from the very beginning it has had various interpretations...your "purity" of the idea...is nothing short of cult/messianic mentality...and no way THE TRUTH!The Had Ness will out live you, as it out lived any other ideology. There is great room for debate and for different opinions, but only within the boudries of the Had- Nes.

pelsar

08-18-2005, 03:03 AM

its 12:00 and i really have to start to work....(self disclpine for us independents sometimes goes "out the door).....

lehet

redcake

08-18-2005, 03:17 AM

...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....

Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...

Woah there. They are being treated in a manner reminiscent to what Palestinians have called human rights violations. Hell, they're even being made into refugees in their own country.

How many Hilltop Youth make up the settlers total? You're describing them as a cult, which suggests the fringe group they are...but then you're speaking as if the hilltop youth are the majority of Gaza, and their faults can be attributed to the entire Right Wing. Do you realize how nutty that makes you sound?

pelsar

08-18-2005, 03:40 AM

Ophra

08-18-2005, 04:32 AM

True.... but the Khanists are much larger and more widely spread ... there are other groups to. One thing they all have in common is that they are all financed from the USA !!

redcake

08-18-2005, 04:52 AM

True.... but the Khanists are much larger and more widely spread ... there are other groups to. One thing they all have in common is that they are all financed from the USA !!

So are Peace Now.

Ophra

08-18-2005, 05:04 AM

So are Peace Now.

So what ?? I am not a member of Peace Now or of any Leftist group .
FYI redcake the majority of Israelis right across the political spectrum want Peace. Well, with the exception of the religious right ... who just seem to want more and more of their so called " Promised Land " :rolleyes: ... and to get it are willing to murder Israeli citizens, Palestinian civilians and even our own Prime Ministers !!!!!!!
Correct me if I am wrong but have any members of Peace Now cold bloodily murdered anyone like the Khanists have ???????????

Mediocrates

08-18-2005, 05:24 AM

And ISM and Women in Black.........

redcake

08-18-2005, 05:47 AM

Correct me if I am wrong but have any members of Peace Now cold bloodily murdered anyone like the Khanists have ???????????

Yes, Peace Now are directly responsible for bringing back Arafat, legitamizing the PLO, adopting Palestinian propaganda, and excusing the murder of hundreds of Jews as a biproduct of the "Peace process". There is blood on their hands.

redcake

08-18-2005, 05:50 AM

Hell, even Hamas recieve more money from US donations the comparitive pennies that go into Kahanie Chai accounts. It's just a moronic argument.

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 09:12 AM

Mira

08-18-2005, 10:43 AM

Thanks Mira ..... I can't return the compliment because you are not part of the problem Mira.... you are back in America ... easy way out Mira .. easy way out ;)
What a stupid comment, Ophra. My fiance raises venture capital for Israeli high tech companies. He was accepted by one of the best MBA programs in the world for this area of business. He loves his country and unlike so many people who just flap their gums all day long, he takes action. As a self-proclaimed capitalist I would think that you could understand our decision.

Me and mine have been here since day one Mira... never left, not once Mira.
I've never been to America Mira... I know nothing about you Diaspora Jews , only what I have learned on here .. but what I have seen I do not like. Since when is being worldly a bad thing? Perhaps you should spend some time outside of Israel for a while and broaden your mind, Ophra. Anybody who would judge all American Jews by a handful of posters on an internet forum is short changing themselves.

You cannot force your ways and your religion on us Mira .... and that is exactly what you religious Zionists have been attempting to do these last 30 years . It's no dern wonder you are all hated so much outside of Israel... now you are surprised we hate your messianic madness here :rolleyes:
Again, what a stupid comment, Ophra. Maybe it is the format of online forums or the kind of people that are attracted to them, but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these :rolleyes: . All my friends in Israel are secular and not a single one would lump me into the category of crazy that you attempt to paint every Jew who has religious leanings. You complain all the time that American Jews have a hard time understanding the complexity of Israelis, but then you turn around and make the same mistake towards diaspora Jews.

Mira

08-18-2005, 10:47 AM

misinterperted....the hilltopyouth....are a small, noisey, dangerous cult...much unlike the vast majority of the settlers in Gaza....and unwanted there as well by most....and there extremism is now coming out in the open

clarified....

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 10:48 AM

Mediocrates

08-18-2005, 10:56 AM

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=88040

sharonbn

08-18-2005, 12:12 PM

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php?id=88040
what a farce. this so called "photo essay" completely ignores the violent actions of the settlers directed towards the police and army.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3129462,00.html

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:34 PM

You only speak for yourself. Stop acting as if you speak for any other Israelis. My Israeli family would agree with Mira, and they are not religious.

Your Russian family :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The majority of secular think like I do Minus .... then you also have the Leftists.... add that together you have 70% of the population.
Go read the other forums in Hebrew (if you can) .
We are going to have elections soon.... everything I say on here will be reflected in the results . Wait and see.

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:36 PM

Yes, Peace Now are directly responsible for bringing back Arafat, legitamizing the PLO, adopting Palestinian propaganda, and excusing the murder of hundreds of Jews as a biproduct of the "Peace process". There is blood on their hands.

Absolute rubbish . Wasn't that your excuse for Rabin's murder? :rolleyes:

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 12:38 PM

Your Russian family :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
.

Don't be daft. They are Israelis, more so than you. Just because you are born somewhere doesn't make you a better person or citizen.

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:44 PM

What a stupid comment, Ophra. My fiance raises venture capital for Israeli high tech companies. He was accepted by one of the best MBA programs in the world for this area of business. He loves his country and unlike so many people who just flap their gums all day long, he takes action. As a self-proclaimed capitalist I would think that you could understand our decision.

Since when is being worldly a bad thing? Perhaps you should spend some time outside of Israel for a while and broaden your mind, Ophra. Anybody who would judge all American Jews by a handful of posters on an internet forum is short changing themselves.

Again, what a stupid comment, Ophra. Maybe it is the format of online forums or the kind of people that are attracted to them, but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these :rolleyes: . All my friends in Israel are secular and not a single one would lump me into the category of crazy that you attempt to paint every Jew who has religious leanings. You complain all the time that American Jews have a hard time understanding the complexity of Israelis, but then you turn around and make the same mistake towards diaspora Jews.

The original comment you made to me was much worse Mira... and I have not forgotten the foul language you used towards me on previous ocassions ...we see you religious women using the same disgusting language towards our soldiers daily on the TV right now... they remind me of you... howling whining foul mouthed harpies .
"" but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these ""......Every one of you right wing religious racist monsters on this forum do exactly the same .

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:48 PM

Don't be daft. They are Israelis, more so than you. Just because you are born somewhere doesn't make you a better person or citizen.

Are they violent drug abusers like you Minus ???? That is the profile you have shown us on here Minus .... so are they like you ?
Most of the Russians over here are druggies or alcoholics or pimps or criminals of one kind or another ... all are extremely violent .
Want me to get the crime statistics for you ??

pelsar

08-18-2005, 12:48 PM

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

no mira the hilltopyouth understand very little about anything...they see things as black and white..good and bad...and if you disagree with them....you become one of the bad guys. The are the "useful idiotes" of the fanatics who have taken advantage of their naiveté.....just victims of a "cult' mentality no more an no less.

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:51 PM

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

The Hilltop Youth are the enemy !! They just threw acid on our police today !!

Mira

08-18-2005, 12:52 PM

The original comment you made to me was much worse Mira... and I have not forgotten the foul language you used towards me on previous ocassions ...we see you religious women using the same disgusting language towards our soldiers daily on the TV right now... they remind me of you... howling whining foul mouthed harpies .
"" but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these ""......Every one of you right wing religious racist monsters on this forum do exactly the same .
You are the only person I've ever talked with who would describe me as "religious," let alone a religious extremist. It's just more evidence of how far gone you are in your own ignroance, or maybe you really are just stupid :confused: I can forgive an ignorant person, but how do you forgive stupidity? It's not like you can change something like that. So which is it, Ophra? Are you ignorant or are you just plain dumb?

Mira

08-18-2005, 12:53 PM

no mira the hilltopyouth understand very little about anything...they see things as black and white..good and bad...and if you disagree with them....you become one of the bad guys. The are the "useful idiotes" of the fanatics who have taken advantage of their naiveté.....just victims of a "cult' mentality no more an no less.

maybe so, but they know enough to secure the hilltops, don't they?

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:56 PM

If I was Israeli, I would tell Ophra to STFU as she is only hurting Israel in every way possible, pitting Israeli and Jew against each other, showing the world how hateful some Israelis can be, and discouraging diaspora investment and involvement.

Bah :p Idiot. It's you people on this forum that spread your hate on a daily basis at anyone that doesn't think like you do.... you critisise the Arabs for not condeming terrorism and then you turn right around and excuse Jews when they do exactly the same thing . Hypocrites !!!

Ophra

08-18-2005, 12:57 PM

You are the only person I've ever talked with who would describe me as "religious," let alone a religious extremist. It's just more evidence of how far gone you are in your own ignroance, or maybe you really are just stupid :confused: I can forgive an ignorant person, but how do you forgive stupidity? It's not like you can change something like that. So which is it, Ophra? Are you ignorant or are you just plain dumb?

Nah Mira ... I'm just going to ignore you ... your worthless .

Justcurious

08-18-2005, 01:04 PM

This Gaza pullout must be a big thing in Israel judging from the many comments presented on it both here and on the world's news media. For an outsider like myself, it is quite hard to grasp how sensible and modern Israeli people can continue to want to occupy an area that is not theirs.

Wasn't it part of Egypt until 39 years ago and more recently part of Palestine? Maybe I'm wrong, but the Gaza dispute is not of that much interest outside Israel.

Yes, I know, you want to comment... Feel free to do so. This is just one opinion.

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 01:05 PM

Are they violent drug abusers like you Minus ???? That is the profile you have shown us on here Minus .... so are they like you ?
Most of the Russians over here are druggies or alcoholics or pimps or criminals of one kind or another ... all are extremely violent .
Want me to get the crime statistics for you ??

Violent Drug Abuser? Me? Last time I was violent was in sixth grade ina fight that some kid picked with me. I won. My only violence ever. Wow!

Abuse drugs? No, I use marijuana every now and then. I'd hardly consider it abuse. As much abuse as you drinking a glass of wine in the evening actually. I guess that makes you an alcoholic in your wide world view.

And don't forget, your grandmother was a Russian-Jew, as were most Jews that live here and/or in Israel now. Your animousity towards them is evidence of a deep hatred of yourself. What are you hiding Ophra? Why do you hate your identity, your history, your own people so much? It's so sad.

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 01:06 PM

Bah :p Idiot. It's you people on this forum that spread your hate on a daily basis at anyone that doesn't think like you do.... you critisise the Arabs for not condeming terrorism and then you turn right around and excuse Jews when they do exactly the same thing . Hypocrites !!!

What are you talking about? When have I done such a thing. You must not read very well, or you must ignore any of my posts unless they have to do with you because you would see that I hold pretty moderate views.

minusthejihad

08-18-2005, 01:11 PM

Ophra, I'm sure the moderators would agree that calling people "idiot" because they don't agree with your warped and small-minded world view, is not allowed on these forums. I don't want to make their job hard for them by reporting your post, so why don't you play nice and edit it yourself?

Mira

08-18-2005, 02:36 PM

Nah Mira ... I'm just going to ignore you ... your worthless .
the feeling is mutual, my dear.............and then some.

Sheherazade

08-18-2005, 06:06 PM

Robmc123

08-18-2005, 06:52 PM

Mei

08-18-2005, 07:55 PM

Iran and the rest are watching all that is going on in Israel, with interest. Syria and Jordan are waiting for the tit bits while Egypt rile in disgust.The Iranian Government already have programmed their computers at Israel before they have even worked out how program a couple of nuclear warhead explosive devices, how do we approach such a fanatical devide, only a short shared prayer will save us all. We are all to blame.

What has preceeded this handover to Palestinians, is the United Nations, a corrupt organization. Hopefully this will be the last lost land for Israel.

The US needas to carefully monitor the Terrorists, the Syrians, Iran, and
the Radical Islamics in the region.
mei

Mei

08-18-2005, 08:07 PM

The US supports Israel and is not fickle as you suggest. Many citizens
are not in support of the UN as it has proven to be dishonest in its
leadership including misuse of funding, and in relation to Iraq's Saddam Hussein and the oil for food program.

many of us do not support the Mitchell Plan Pray for wisdom of our President and his staff to see the error of such a plan.
mei

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127740,00.html

First Lebanon. They you can count on Syria, Iraq and all the rest soon. The Arab world will expel as many of its Palestinians as quickly as it can. You can count on most of them being packed off to Gaza. This will create a very public social calamity for the Palestinians who of course will blame the Israelis. The west, EU/UN/US will then pressure Israel to relax border controls and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will stream across the border creating a mass exodus which will overwhelm Israel. At the same time some domestic problem like assassination, civil uprising or mass terrorist attacks will cause Jordan to push many of its Palestinian 'refugees' into the West Bank creating an identical situation from the other side.

I moved up my timetable again from 5 years to 2. In 2 years there will not be an identifiable country called Israel. It will be one large anarchic broken mess with civil war, a failed ecnonomy, mass terrorist attacks leading to a near extinction of the Jews there. The region of Israel-Yesha-Jordan-Syria-Lebanon will collapse, there will be starvation and lack of water. The US will push its heavily subsidized Egyptian and Saudi allies to step in and occupy the region. All Jewish residents who are not expelled will be placed in camps 'for their own protection'.

pelsar

08-18-2005, 11:55 PM

maybe so, but they know enough to secure the hilltops, don't they?

well Mira... I prefer to live in a country where the govt makes the rules and not some fanatical fringe group.....your "hilltopyouth" are not buying the land, not getting permission from the govt to live there...they are going out to dangerous areas, stealing land that the govt who is in charge of it and by virute of the need to defend those kids...the IDF then has to send soldiers out there as well.

May we expand upon your version of "taking the law in to ones own hands?.....I doubt very much you would agree if some squatters went to your local park and put their caravan down there to live....well i prefer to live in a country where the govt has the final say....and not some rabbi (you know the ones that say we can ignore our govt/IDF/Police forces.....)

you cant serve two masters....the result is a country that cant be survive, and that includes israel. You have to decide which side of the line your on...either the democratically elected govt of israel (right or left)....or the anti israeli crowd..and that includes ALL of those who believe that taking the law into their own hands is a "good thing", as well as those who version of judiaism they believe gives them the right to break the law.

and the pseudo excuse of "we know better" is pure BS, countries cant work like that. Those kids endanger me and my buddies with their antics. And if it was up to me, since I know better, we wouldnt protect them.....but the govt says I have to go...so I go and risk my life for them..thats how countries work...supporting anarchy is hardy supporting israel, its supports our destruction as a democratic state (which many jews would love to see-maybe perhaps your one of them)

and one more thing....i didnt come to israel to live in a theocratic, fanatical dictatorship...because those that excuse the hilltopyouth and their ilk are proposing exactly that (ask those kids...they're not ashamed of it)...the world has already seen two of those kind of govts...the taliban and iran...we dont need a jewish version of those.

Ophra

08-19-2005, 03:43 AM

well Mira... I prefer to live in a country where the govt makes the rules and not some fanatical fringe group.....your "hilltopyouth" are not buying the land, not getting permission from the govt to live there...they are going out to dangerous areas, stealing land that the govt who is in charge of it and by virute of the need to defend those kids...the IDF then has to send soldiers out there as well.

May we expand upon your version of "taking the law in to ones own hands?.....I doubt very much you would agree if some squatters went to your local park and put their caravan down there to live....well i prefer to live in a country where the govt has the final say....and not some rabbi (you know the ones that say we can ignore our govt/IDF/Police forces.....)

you cant serve two masters....the result is a country that cant be survive, and that includes israel. You have to decide which side of the line your on...either the democratically elected govt of israel (right or left)....or the anti israeli crowd..and that includes ALL of those who believe that taking the law into their own hands is a "good thing", as well as those who version of judiaism they believe gives them the right to break the law.

and the pseudo excuse of "we know better" is pure BS, countries cant work like that. Those kids endanger me and my buddies with their antics. And if it was up to me, since I know better, we wouldnt protect them.....but the govt says I have to go...so I go and risk my life for them..thats how countries work...supporting anarchy is hardy supporting israel, its supports our destruction as a democratic state (which many jews would love to see-maybe perhaps your one of them)

and one more thing....i didnt come to israel to live in a theocratic, fanatical dictatorship...because those that excuse the hilltopyouth and their ilk are proposing exactly that (ask those kids...they're not ashamed of it)...the world has already seen two of those kind of govts...the taliban and iran...we dont need a jewish version of those.

I hear you pelsar.... I hear you ..but..don't expect anybody else to ;) We who are neither Left or Right are rarely loved by anyone .

BTW want to bet that it was those same sweet settler youth that were behind this today ?????........

Reckless Act/Pullout foes torch gas depot

Disaster narrowly averted in Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout objectors torch gas depot near residential building, write anti-Sharon slogans nearby. Quick action by firefighters prevents giant explosion
By Eli Senyor

A disaster was narrowly averted in the town of Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout foes torched a gas depot near a residential building. The pullout objectors also wrote slogans against Prime Minister Sharon, calling for his murder, and vowed the act was only the beginning.

Fire fighters managed to put out the fire and prevented what would have been a huge explosion. Police officials are treating the incident with severity and have set up a special team to investigate the crime.

The police characterized the incident as a "miracle," and said forces were stunned to discover someone poured a flammable substance on the underground gas depot's faucet. The depot contains a huge amount of gas for the benefit of area residents.

Police vow to catch 'madman'

Rehovot Fire Department Commander Shimon Gamliel told Ynet luck played a part in averting the disaster. He said a call came in around 3 a.m. regarding a small fire, but once firefighters arrived at the scene they realized the severity of the incident.

"The fire began spreading, along with a gas leak that resulted from the open valves," he said. ""Fortunately, it was an underground gas depot, with only its valves being above the ground."

"If this was a ground-level gas depot, it would have likely exploded and caused a disaster," he said. "Another thing working in our favor was the greenery around the depot, which slowed down the fire."

Police estimate the incident marked an attempt to exact a human toll, police commander Yifrach Duvdevani said following the incident.

"We'll invest plenty of effort to catch the madman who carried out the incident, which in our view is akin to an attempt to stage a terror attack," he said. "We mustn't forget that a residential building is located 30 meters (about 100 feet) away from the gas depot."

After the fire was extinguished, firefighters found rags drenched in a flammable substance attached to the open gas valves and sent them for lab tests, Gamliel said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130102,00.html

To those who find a way to rationalize the violence and excuse it I say that the tiger you are trying to ride has let out a roar.

Ophra

08-19-2005, 04:13 AM

I'm an American Jew- I wouldn't call myself particularly religious, but I belong to a synagogue and observe our faith in a 'moderate' way. I also can be considered quite a bit to the left in my leanings. Ophra, what is your vision of the typical American Jew? Maybe you have not been exposed to a good cross section.

I'm sorry Sheherazade.... this is what was wrong with me yesterday :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130134,00.html
... and not just me... I think every mother with a son or daughter within our forces in the Gush right now were feeling the same . The anger over here yesterday was undescribable ... our kids have been so patient and so good with the settlers .. they just do not deserve this kind of abuse.

I am sick to death with the Israeli religious right wing .... and scared ...and worried for our secular Democracy.
You and moderates like you must speak out for us in America.... tell them what is going on here .... please .