History in the making: Pull out from Gaza started today

[sharonbn]

Cabinet formally ratifies evacuation of Gush Katif
The cabinet Monday ratified the evacuation of Gush Katif, the largest settlement bloc in the Gaza Strip, as anti-disengagement activists held a protest outside Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office in Jerusalem, Army Radio reported.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612707.html

IDF hands eviction notices to Gaza, W. Bank settlers
The army began formal implementation of the disengagement plan Monday morning, as teams of soldiers moved into the northern Gaza settlement of Nissanit and handed settlers eviction notices, which will go into effect early Wednesday.

The step came hours after the Disengagement Law took effect at midnight, with the army sealing off the Strip and barring all Israeli citizens from entering the settlements slated for evacuation.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612451.html

Clashes, slashed tires in Gaza
In settlement of Neve Dekalim, pullout foes puncture tires of three army jeeps, clash with security forces; clashes also reported in northern West Bank
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127505,00.html

[atricnorth]

well, not gonna comment on that, more concern about gaza being another afghanistan.

the article below will either put america in gaza or israel back in gaza again.

read the new thread under "canadians got hurt" , near the egypt and gaza border.

"in the news"

[sharonbn]

Pull out time table, as was outlined in weekend newspapers:

15/8, Monday: IDF officers hands official letter to residents telling them they reside in a "military closed space" and should evacuate the premise ASAP. No plans for forceful actions.

16/8, Tuesday: Last day for self-initiated evacuation of residents of Gush Katif.

17/8, Wednesday: Start of last phase of evacuation:

1) The police and IDF are organized in seven rings of closure and protection. IDF will move 400 meters (~400 yards) out of Gush Katif outer fences to protect against possible Palestinian rocket firing. PA is said to establish its own protection ring, 200 meters further from the Israeli ring. Two combined command outposts are already set up, to coordinate actions in case of attacks from Palestinian terror cells. The protection rings will remain in place for at least three weeks, until the last civilian has left the region.

2) unarmed police forces will enter the settlements and will go from house to house. An evacuation squad will consist of 17 personnel lead by a "seren" officer (Captain). Each squad is designed to evacuate two houses in one day. The squads are prepared for the following scenarios:
a) The residents will evacuate willingly: The policemen will aid the residents in packing their house. Even babysitting services is included. After everything is packed, the resident will be shown to a bus that will take them out of GS. The houses will be sealed. An option is open for the residents to leave the house and come back and pack at a later date.
b) The residents will not open the door to the policemen: Soldiers will knock down the door by force, then proceed to offer peaceful evacuation to the residents.
c) The residents will commit a "passive" resistance: will sit down and refuse to move out: policemen and soldiers will carry the settlers to the busses. The house will be sealed and packing will take place on a later date.
d) The residents will commit an active resistance, violently refuse to move out: Special IDF forces will deal with these people. Weapons will include riot discharge arsenal. Arrests will be committed if resistance is not contained.

evacuation is planned to take around two weeks to complete. After that time, there will be time for packing houses that were not packed before. after that, the bulldozers will move in and demolish the houses. The entire region will be handed over to PA as one piece.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127740,00.html


First Lebanon. They you can count on Syria, Iraq and all the rest soon. The Arab world will expel as many of its Palestinians as quickly as it can. You can count on most of them being packed off to Gaza. This will create a very public social calamity for the Palestinians who of course will blame the Israelis. The west, EU/UN/US will then pressure Israel to relax border controls and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will stream across the border creating a mass exodus which will overwhelm Israel. At the same time some domestic problem like assassination, civil uprising or mass terrorist attacks will cause Jordan to push many of its Palestinian 'refugees' into the West Bank creating an identical situation from the other side.

I moved up my timetable again from 5 years to 2. In 2 years there will not be an identifiable country called Israel. It will be one large anarchic broken mess with civil war, a failed ecnonomy, mass terrorist attacks leading to a near extinction of the Jews there. The region of Israel-Yesha-Jordan-Syria-Lebanon will collapse, there will be starvation and lack of water. The US will push its heavily subsidized Egyptian and Saudi allies to step in and occupy the region. All Jewish residents who are not expelled will be placed in camps 'for their own protection'.

[scattergood]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127740,00.html


First Lebanon. They you can count on Syria, Iraq and all the rest soon. The Arab world will expel as many of its Palestinians as quickly as it can. You can count on most of them being packed off to Gaza. This will create a very public social calamity for the Palestinians who of course will blame the Israelis. The west, EU/UN/US will then pressure Israel to relax border controls and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will stream across the border creating a mass exodus which will overwhelm Israel. At the same time some domestic problem like assassination, civil uprising or mass terrorist attacks will cause Jordan to push many of its Palestinian 'refugees' into the West Bank creating an identical situation from the other side.

I moved up my timetable again from 5 years to 2. In 2 years there will not be an identifiable country called Israel. It will be one large anarchic broken mess with civil war, a failed ecnonomy, mass terrorist attacks leading to a near extinction of the Jews there. The region of Israel-Yesha-Jordan-Syria-Lebanon will collapse, there will be starvation and lack of water. The US will push its heavily subsidized Egyptian and Saudi allies to step in and occupy the region. All Jewish residents who are not expelled will be placed in camps 'for their own protection'.

The real issue that the Gaza withdrawl poses is IF and WHEN Arabs in Gaza will be responsible for themselves and bear the punishments for their actions. If they are never held responsible, then yes Medio's outlook, as dim is it is, may come true.

Alternatively, without any Israeli influence in Gaza, the case for even more massvie, military, violent repsonse to terrorist activites can be made. the '56 war was initiated to stop cross border attacks from Sinai. Israel, in response to Gazan based rocket and mortar fire, and after giving the PA time to fail to respond, may feel justified (and supported) in MASSIVE response. And by that I mean, taking over 1-3 miles inside the fence line, permanently. Building a new fence and creating a DMZ. And as long as attacks happen, just keep doing that.

It is clear the Palenstian Arabs DO NOT want peace. It is not possible to have peace with a partner who doesn't want it. Unless and until the PA takes substantive and clear action against those who do violence to Israel there will be not any peace. All Israel can do is change the situation on the ground until it is better to make peace than not.

Unfortunately, that is precisely what the Arabs are doing to Israel. Hopefully Israel can work itself into a postiion where it can do the same. Peace isn't made only by talking, for as Von Clausiwitz said "War is just another form of Diplomacy".

[sharonbn]

I believe that Mahmud Abbas wants peace.

[Mediocrates]

I believe he wants his head to stay attached to his neck. Abbas is a myth in Gaza and increasingly a figurehead in Ramallah. Just like Arafat was penned in to his compound as much by threats to his life by his own people as he was penned in bu the IDF, Abbas too is for the most part the mayor of his own little compound and not really given any credence by the millions of Palestinians who understand that corruption, greed and do-nothing-ism can't feed them and isn't even a comfort to them like the racist murderous screeds of Hamas and the other 16 'security' organizations that Arfat established to face down each other and create the very anarchy that's come back around to bite them. Come January Abbas will either win in a rigged election or he will lose and blame the Israelis for rigging it against him. In either case Hamas will become the predominate faction, it will purge the PLO executive committee and declare war on all the Jews in the West Bank and Jerusalem. On one point the Haaretzniks are correct. Hamas controlled Gaza will launch fewer attacks against Israel. It will instead pick the strategic option of destroying its own infrastructure and blaming it on the Jews in order to forment even more rabid antisemtism. This will cause the quartet to pressure Israel to give up control of Gaza's seacost and airspace for 'humanitarian purposes'.

[RichardP]

Abbas, as said, wants to keep his head, more so than to keep the peace. Perhaps, I am wrong, as it would benefit Israel, if it were the latter. Nonetheless, this man cannot mend the schism of his own people, not to mention, Hamas and others who desire the head-wanker’s pole position.
As I read more of Mediocrates post, depression set in; as he, I believe, sees it for what it is and will be.
Especially the final sentence by Medio: This will cause the quartet to pressure Israel to give up control of Gaza's seacost and airspace for 'humanitarian purposes'.

[Mediocrates]

Is Dan Gillerman retarded?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/612908.html

The Gaza pullout should mark an end to UN hostility against Israel, UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman said on Monday, urging the world body to support the withdrawal as a historic move toward peace.

[Mediocrates]

Thanks. I hate being right. Hate it.

[sharonbn]

destroy its own infrastructure?
in two years Israel will unidentifyable?
oh yeah you are soooo right :rolleyes:
oh and you also have a nice sound solution to all our problems...

[Sheherazade]

Is Dan Gillerman retarded?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/612908.html

The Gaza pullout should mark an end to UN hostility against Israel, UN Ambassador Dan Gillerman said on Monday, urging the world body to support the withdrawal as a historic move toward peace.



There is a method to the madness, I think. I don't know if anyon has mentioned this before. The pullout seems like a long term strategy by Sharon, even from his provocative visit to the Temple Mount. The emotional resistance of the settlers works well with this. Israel can now claim that that they have made incredible sacrifices in the name of peace. Hamas is emboldened and claims that the tactics of suicide bombings and terrorism is what precipitated the evacuation of Jews from Gaza. They will call for and most likely facilitate more suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon will then claim moral authority for an all out attack on Palestinians.

[Mediocrates]

destroy its own infrastructure?
in two years Israel will unidentifyable?
oh yeah you are soooo right :rolleyes:
oh and you also have a nice sound solution to all our problems...


Spoken by the same people who two years ago equated Sharon with the devil.

[sharonbn]

at least we don't make delusional prophecies

[RichardP]

It could be the old reverse-psychology ploy: there's no doubt Hamas will never cease with their terrorist attacks on Israel. Then Israel can hammer the ****'S nearer to oblivion. Although, it is, to me, utterly wrong to surrender Gaza; it is a mortifying and a tragedy for those being uprooted from their homes. Moreover, the violence will never end, and Israel certainly cannot afford to sacrifice any more to these malevolent gits!
Nor, can we continuously dance to the world’s tune: because their opinion of Israel and Jews will never differ. The US appears to be isolating Israel; their once true ally now stands on the periphery watching Israel being dismantled bit by bit.
I hope I’m wrong… however, for the moment that’s the way I see it.

[frizzer1]

There is a method to the madness, I think. I don't know if anyon has mentioned this before. The pullout seems like a long term strategy by Sharon, even from his provocative visit to the Temple Mount.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it because no one thinks Sharon is that smart.
The emotional resistance of the settlers works well with this. Israel can now claim that that they have made incredible sacrifices in the name of peace. Hamas is emboldened and claims that the tactics of suicide bombings and terrorism is what precipitated the evacuation of Jews from Gaza. They will call for and most likely facilitate more suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon will then claim moral authority for an all out attack on Palestinians.

You really are cynical about this whole affair,Tovah.Look, you may be right but why speculate?Would you also suggest that if Israel withdrew from the west Bank and turned over east Jerusalem to the pals that it was part of Sharon's grand plan to start an all-out war against them?

The facts are that israel has made incredible sacrifices for peace over and over again for decades and all the palestinians had to do was end the violence and negotiate.
And you are correct about hamas.They are claiming victory and that terror has worked, so there will be increased violence from Gaza after the disengagement and they promised that again this morning.
After the violence from Gaza israel will be forced to retaliate, and for my money they should not send in the army, just bomb the hell out of them until they realise it is not in their interest to continue with their violence.
I have always been for a palestinian state.I have always been for dialogue and negotiotion.But there has to be someone on the arab side willing to negotiate.5 wars later and they are still trying to destroy israel.
When is enough, enough? It's when they have Gaza and still pursue violence,that's when.

[RichardP]

Well said, Frizzer; we have sacrificed too much already! Enjoyed the humour you e-mailed... will reply! Cheers!

[frizzer1]

Although, it is, to me, utterly wrong to surrender Gaza; it is a mortifying and a tragedy for those being uprooted from their homes. Moreover, the violence will never end, and Israel certainly cannot afford to sacrifice any more to these malevolent gits!

It is always a tragedy when people are evicted from their homes and it's a sign of the hypocrisy of the world community that they only see it as a tragedy when arabs lose their homes.
Today I saw scenes of settlers and soldiers crying together.I'm not a settlement supporter but the settlers themselves were betrayed by the same government that encouraged them to go there in the first place.
I do think however that getting out of gaza is the right thing to do.A few thousand jews in the midst of a million and a half arabs is simply not going to work, long term.

The US appears to be isolating Israel; their once true ally now stands on the periphery watching Israel being dismantled bit by bit.
I hope I’m wrong… however, for the moment that’s the way I see it.

I don't see the US position that way Richard.And I think that Israel will ultimately be better off completely disengaged from the palestinians.

[RichardP]

I hope you are right, and I am dead wrong about the US, Frizzer. I felt that way at one time, too: you are bang on with... "And I think that Israel will ultimately be better off completely disengaged from the palestinians."

[Sheherazade]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it because no one thinks Sharon is that smart.


You really are cynical about this whole affair,Tovah.Look, you may be right but why speculate?Would you also suggest that if Israel withdrew from the west Bank and turned over east Jerusalem to the pals that it was part of Sharon's grand plan to start an all-out war against them?

The facts are that israel has made incredible sacrifices for peace over and over again for decades and all the palestinians had to do was end the violence and negotiate.
And you are correct about hamas.They are claiming victory and that terror has worked, so there will be increased violence from Gaza after the disengagement and they promised that again this morning.
After the violence from Gaza israel will be forced to retaliate, and for my money they should not send in the army, just bomb the hell out of them until they realise it is not in their interest to continue with their violence.
I have always been for a palestinian state.I have always been for dialogue and negotiotion.But there has to be someone on the arab side willing to negotiate.5 wars later and they are still trying to destroy israel.
When is enough, enough? It's when they have Gaza and still pursue violence,that's when.


Yes, I am quite cynical these days...having a relapse of existential despair.
More death, more destruction.

[Mediocrates]

at least we don't make delusional prophecies


I'm batting waay over .500 so far.

[frizzer1]

Yes, I am quite cynical these days...having a relapse of existential despair.
More death, more destruction.

Yep, I understand.And there is more to come and more after that.
Oh well, I guess we can hope for a better future for the next generation because this one won't see it.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000001582&fid=942




70% blowout in 2005 disengagement budget

The original disengagement budget was NIS 2.2 billion, but actual costs will total NIS 3.2-3.7 billion.

Zeev Klein

Actual spending on disengagement in 2005 will be NIS 1-1.5 billion more than the amount budgeted. The original disengagement budget was NIS 2.2 billion, but actual costs will total NIS 3.2-3.7 billion, 70% more than the original budget.

Most of the overrun is for compensation payments, removal of agricultural equipment and property, temporary housing in the Nitzan project, and hotels and rented apartments for evacuated Jews.

The revised estimates were reportedly presented to ministers during the cabinet session last Tuesday that discussed the 2006 budget, details of which were leaked today to "Globes". A considerable proportion of the money is also designated for increased activity by the Israel Defense Forces and Israel Police.

Lower government spending will compensate for the NIS 1-1.5 billion increase in disengagement spending. The Ministry of Finance found that government spending this year, particularly interest costs, would be slightly less than originally planned. Total spending on the disengagement plan is still within the revised framework of NIS 7.5-8 billion. As of now, the NIS 2.2 billion disengagement budget for 2006 has not been changed; military and civilian evacuation for 2005-2006 will total NIS 6 billion. NIS 1.5-2 billion will remain for remaining evacuation costs in 2007. Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il (http://www.globes.co.il/) - on August 15, 2005

[minusthejihad]

Spoken by the same people who two years ago equated Sharon with the devil.

Ouch, and if I remember, very ture.

[sharonbn]

Ouch, and if I remember, very ture.
barking dogs

[sharonbn]

Violent clashes in Neve Dekalim

Settlers, right-wing activists battle security forces as they attempt to prevent shipping containers from reaching homes in Gush Katif’s largest settlement. Large forces trying to maintain order

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3128219,00.html

[Ophra]

I believe that Mahmud Abbas wants peace.

I believe that he does to .... he knows that this is the last chance for a Palestinian State . His bluster is just that ... bluster.
The question is whether he can control his extremists . Right now he is fooling them with false promises.
One thing is for sure .... if he can't control them then we can . Let's hope it doesn't get to that point .

[Mira]

Ophra and sharonbn,

I think you guys have your heads in the clouds.

[sharonbn]

Maybe, maybe not, time will tell.
So far, Abbas is on the right tracks.
anyways, our heads cannot be higher up than those who predict the destruction of Israel in the next two years, or that Pal great plan is to destroy its own infrastructure only to exert more pressure on Israel

[redcake]

Maybe, maybe not, time will tell.
So far, Abbas is on the right tracks.

What tracks? He hasn't secured Gaza, and already he's asking for Jerusalem. Not even EAST Jerusalem, just Jeruselam. Maybe I'm just in the dark here, but what power has he exerted aside from getting UN Aid workers released from their afternoon kidnappings? Why should we pretend that Abbas isn't from the Fatah, PLO, PLFP, Muslim Brotherhood lineage?! So far the PLO are doing everything they said they would to eradicate Jews, and Abbas only continues that tradition.

[Mediocrates]

Leave them to their strategems. It's all worked out so wonderfully so far.

[sharonbn]

PA has deployed more than 1,000 troops around the Israeli colonies in order to prevent terror cells from sbotaging the pull out.

earlier this month, PS forces clashed with Hamas units over qassam firing. the PA forces prevented the firing of the rockets into Israel, the clashes resulted in injuries to both sides.

Partly as result of the clashes, Abbas has secured a cease fire agreement with the major terror movements, for the duration of the pull out.

PA has launched a publicity campaign in the Pal TV and newspapers, urging Pals to behave civilaized once the pull out ends, not to fire live ammunitin in the air, etc.

[redcake]

Sharon, you haven't addressed any of my questions. You've outline gestures that are fairly empty in light of the conitnued indoctrinization of schoolo children, the reality that Hamas out number the PA police, and with the full knowlegde that condeming violence in the newspapers has little weight on the people. So what has he done that you can point to beyond a gesture?

Another question... you used the term "Israeli colonies". Do you consider your self a collonialist? If so, why don't you give back your little plot of Tel Aviv and offer it up to the first Arab you can find?

[sharonbn]

Sharon, you haven't addressed any of my questions. You've outline gestures that are fairly empty in light of the conitnued indoctrinization of schoolo children, the reality that Hamas out number the PA police, and with the full knowlegde that condeming violence in the newspapers has little weight on the people. So what has he done that you can point to beyond a gesture?
read it again
"earlier this month, PA forces clashed with Hamas units over qassam firing. the PA forces prevented the firing of the rockets into Israel, the clashes resulted in injuries to both sides."
in plain words - PA fought terrorism and forcefully prevented agression against Israel.
The deployment of PA forces around the settlements is designed to do the same thing.
if that is a "gesture" in your eyes, then your eyes are tight shut.

Another question... you used the term "Israeli colonies". Do you consider your self a collonialist? If so, why don't you give back your little plot of Tel Aviv and offer it up to the first Arab you can find?
That is ridicilous analogy.
If Naveh Dekalim is a colony, why can someone draw any conclusion about Tel Aviv?
Its like saying that if Algiria was a French colony, then Paris is also one.

Tel Aviv is part of the state of Israel, as is recognized by the world nations. Tel Aviv is not disputed land. Naveh Dekalim is a colony because it sits on land that is not part of the state of Israel, both legally and morally. not that Kazrin is not a colony, but at the very least that land was annexed by Israel, so you may have an argument there. Gaza strip was never annexed, so it is not Israeli land. there is no basis none whatsoever for Israeli settlements on foreign land, other then expansionism of course.

[sharonbn]

Leave them to their strategems. It's all worked out so wonderfully so far.
wow, yet another well thought plan (not to mention original and insightful) for a complete solution for the 50 year conflict from the school of Medio.

[redcake]

That is ridicilous analogy.
If Naveh Dekalim is a colony, why can someone draw any conclusion about Tel Aviv?
Its like saying that if Algiria was a French colony, then Paris is also one.

Tel Aviv is part of the state of Israel, as is recognized by the world nations. Tel Aviv is not disputed land. Naveh Dekalim is a colony because it sits on land that is not part of the state of Israel, both legally and morally. not that Kazrin is not a colony, but at the very least that land was annexed by Israel, so you may have an argument there. Gaza strip was never annexed, so it is not Israeli land. there is no basis none whatsoever for Israeli settlements on foreign land, other then expansionism of course.

Well, since you don't seem to be aware, let someone from the Diaspora give you some insight into the World view of Israel. You're a European white collonialist, posing as a Jew, and by living in Tel Aviv, you're living on stolen Palestinian Arab land, which must be liberated in it's entirety, and returned to the original landlords. Your head really is in the clouds.

[sharonbn]

Well, since you don't seem to be aware, let someone from the Diaspora give you some insight into the World view of Israel. You're a European white collonialist, posing as a Jew, and by living in Tel Aviv, you're living on stolen Palestinian Arab land, which must be liberated in it's entirety, and returned to the original landlords. Your head really is in the clouds.
Well, I guess it all depends on your definition of "World view". I was describing the "world nations" as is demonstrated by the governments of these nations. Now lets see: they all voted for the establishment of the state of Israel back in 1947. They all established embassies in Israel (most of them in Tel Aviv 'colony', btw) they sign diplomatic agreements with the government of Israel. Generally speaking, they regard Israel as a fully soveraign state.

I don't recall in the 50 years of Israeli independance not even a single incident when a leader of state declared Israel as a European white colony living on stolen land, or a government acting towards Israel as if it is an illegal entity.

The same governments did express numerous times their view of the status of the Israeli colonies on Gaza strip. They failed to include Tel Aviv in the same category.

I would guess your description fits the avarage European dimwit. Maybe it also fits the view of some official clercks, like the Mayor of a certain European capital. That's about it. As important as this view is (NOT!) it does not play a factor in the legality of the state of Israel, and needless to say, in the satus of the city of Tel Aviv.

[redcake]

I don't recall in the 50 years of Israeli independance not even a single incident when a leader of state declared Israel as a European white colony living on stolen land, or a government acting towards Israel as if it is an illegal entity.

Which is proof you can live in Israel and be totally clueless.

It happens nearly every day at the UN. H'bout the 2001 UN world Conference Against Racism, where Zionism was the main topic? Zionism, under their perverted definition, would definetly conclude that you are a settler, in Tel Aviv. Go visit the Free Palestine forums, and open your eyes.

How many of the 22 Arabic States even recognize Israel's existance, anyway?

Who is applauding the Gaza move? They're saying it's not enough, and implying this is really an Israeli scheme.

[redcake]

n/m double post.

[sharonbn]

It happens nearly every day at the UN.
Israel gets condemnations for its actions. It does not mean the UN regards Israel is an illegal colonialist entity. One of the condemnations was against Israeli occupation of Gaza. Please show me where the UN made a resolution about the illegality of Tel Aviv.

H'bout the 2001 UN world Conference Against Racism, where Zionism was the main topic?
First of all, Zionism was the main topic in the conference of the unofficial organizations. The official conference dealt with many issues and there was no resolution that equated Zionism with Racism.

Go visit the Free Palestine forums, and open your eyes.
Already answered that. The fact that many Pals do not recognize Israel's right to exist did not escape my eyes. there is, however, absolutely zero relevance to Pals POV and this little futile discussion.

How many of the 22 Arabic States even recognize Israel's existance, anyway?
Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain and Qatar among others. and since 1998 - the Palestinian Authority.

[redcake]

Wake up. The rallying cry is "Today Gaza, Tommorow the West Bank, and Jerusalem...then beyond". The sentiment is EVERYWHERE. These are the moderates talking. Do homes in Tel Aviv have their own bomb shelters? Then this conversation isn't futile. You're just severely uninformed.

Israel's opponents do not differentiate between you and the Gaza settlers. Most don't even know the difference on a map.

The Jews of Gaza are being called ZEALOTS on Fox News, as an acceptable term....look up the origins of that word, and tell me that connotation doesn't effect YOU a resident in Tel Aviv. Israeli's are shown crying on world TV. Tell me that doesn't effect your future soveriengty in Israel.

[sharonbn]

As I said before:
The legality of Israel's existence is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period.
The soveraignity of Israel over the city of Tel Aviv is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period.
Rallies, public polls and online forums do not change these simple facts.

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

TV news from Gaza do not affect my future as a resident of Tel Aviv. I have only positive feelings today. A historical injustice is being corrected. This move will make Israel safer and will only help the strengthen Israeli image and stance in the world.

[Gilgamesh]

As I said before:
The legality of Israel's existence is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period. After the pull out capbility demonstration, Sharon proved the world that no wish of destruction is impossible. Very soon, demands for other parts of Israel will follow.

The soveraignity of Israel over the city of Tel Aviv is not at dispute by any contry in the western world. period. Posting twice the same BS dosen't make it true.

Again, the majority of the Arabs consider the rest of Israel as occupied just as well. The far left demands to abolish Israel as a nation state, meaning exactly ending Jewish sovereignity over Israel. Very soon, you'll find the rest of Europe and parts of America supporting this claim. Sharon proved them that Jews are stupid enough and self hating enough to surrender even Tel Aviv.

BTW, there are couple of Nazi trolls roaming free. Handle them please.

Rallies, public polls and online forums do not change these simple facts. These things give one information, or insight. what to do with this is another matter entirely.

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. Nope, these are right, you claim is false. You are in denail of reality. A common Jewish illness, most assosicated with diaspora. You think like a Yehudi Ga'luti. This are the exact feelings used by all of our enemies to dismiss our natural fear and natural sense of self presevation. In other words, your ideas are un-natural.

In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people. It wasn't always so, and no reason to belive it might stay that way for long. Does the expression Mish'enet Ka'ne Ra'tzutz rings you any bell?

TV news from Gaza do not affect my future as a resident of Tel Aviv. I have only positive feelings today. A historical injustice is being corrected. This move will make Israel safer and will only help the strengthen Israeli image and stance in the world. You will find out how wrong you are. The pull out is merely a symptom of greater danger or psychological maladi, that might point at our doom.

[redcake]

Moreover, your statement about anti Israeli sentiments being 'everywhere' is also false. In America, the most powerful nation today, the vast majority of citizens support the state of Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

You're so naive it's frightening....
so read this clearly...
the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
world opinion is that of a moral equivalency, and people like yourself have egged them...
well watch now, because it's going to hit you in the face once this precedent for returning Jewish land goes into effect....
if 1967 is unlawful, then 1948 was REALLY unlawfull....
Israel's soveriegnty is COMPLETELY in dispute.

[Ophra]

You're so naive it's frightening....
so read this clearly...
the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
world opinion is that of a moral equivalency, and people like yourself have egged them...
well watch now, because it's going to hit you in the face once this precedent for returning Jewish land goes into effect....
if 1967 is unlawful, then 1948 was REALLY unlawfull....
Israel's soveriegnty is COMPLETELY in dispute.

Well redcake, I'm not naive ..... I know exactly how much we are loved .... and I don't give a damn. Nor do I give a damn what American Jews on this forum are telling me.
What Sharon has done is exactly right for Israel and I support him 100% .... whether Peace or outright war is an outcome of this lies entirely in the hands of the Palestinians . Either way Israel's secular democracy will continue , and that is all that I care about ;)

[sharonbn]

the American Jews on this forum are telling you....
you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
OK, I will admit I don't know as much about public opinion in America as someone who lives there. If that's how you describe it, then that's how it is.

However, I do not believe the American gov't will change its support of Israel. The support withstood darker times when Israel was literally the lepard of the entire world. This is not the situation today. Israeli soveraignity is not dispuetd by any gov't in the western world. I think i'm beginning to repeat myself now.

Regarding what will happen after the pull out is everybody's guess. However, the notion that because Israel withdrew from GS it will be required to be dismantled completely is absurd.

First of all, the eyes of the world will turn to the Pals. the burdeon is on their shoulders to prove they can sustain order and central control in the region. No one in the world will demand Israel of any new concessions until the situation in Gaza is clear and stable. If central control will collapse in Gaza and the region will become gangland, Israel can and indeed should halt all further withdrawals. If things get really really ugly and Gaza turns out to be a nest of terror cells that constatnly attack Israeli civilian targets, then I guess Israel will have to re-conquer the strip. My guess is that Abbas has the will and possibly the power to maintain his control over the region. He certainly needs the cooperation of the extremist groups like Hamas, but at least until now, he seems to be on top of things. In my eyes, Abbas sems to be a real shroud and clever negotiator and manipulator capable of achieving his goals.

Secondly, again, until now, the Israeli pull out rips nothing but praises from the world leaders as well as the media. What will happen inthe future is... well... in the future. and its like Ophra said - We are accustomed to being hated worldwide. Israel sould do what's best for its future.

[frizzer1]

First of all, the eyes of the world will turn to the Pals. the burdeon is on their shoulders to prove they can sustain order and central control in the region.

What else is new? The pals can start bombing Israel the day after disengagement and the world won't say boo.


No one in the world will demand Israel of any new concessions until the situation in Gaza is clear and stable. If central control will collapse in Gaza and the region will become gangland, Israel can and indeed should halt all further withdrawals. If things get really really ugly and Gaza turns out to be a nest of terror cells that constatnly attack Israeli civilian targets, then I guess Israel will have to re-conquer the strip.

And the world will condemn Israel for invading the poor people of gaza and the UN will hold emergency meetings and pal spokespeople,( usually beautiful and eloquent women.....that's for another thread), wil turn up on all the TV networks.And the campuses will erupt with anti-israel campaigns.



My guess is that Abbas has the will and possibly the power to maintain his control over the region. He certainly needs the cooperation of the extremist groups like Hamas, but at least until now, he seems to be on top of things. In my eyes, Abbas sems to be a real shroud and clever negotiator and manipulator capable of achieving his goals.


You're right about one thing..you're guessing.
We will find out, but right now we don't know what this man's true intentions are.

[pelsar]

you know what missing in this thread.....the reality from the secular point of view:

First of all the quantity of soldiers and equipment that were required to protect such places like kfar drom was staggering......its a lot easier to to defend israel from places that are not surrounded by a sea of palestenians who are only a sniper shot away.

by being outside with a nice fence israel will save millions of dollars and lives by being "outside". The fence is a clear border....those who climb over it are "fair game".

Far more interesting is the exposure of just how far our religious right has gone.....way over the line. Attacking IDF soldiers, and policmen...these kids are out of control. This exposure may put some sanity back in our govt in terms of the way they've been educating the youth in the westbank...where their messianic version of religion is far more important than the israeli govt......if they 're not stopped now, we'll have our own version of the "taliban"

and finally not only do the palestenians get their 'chance" but by doing so they get to show us what they're all about. If they succeed in making a pseudo state that works....israel will be impressed and willing to give them more...if they cant make a go of it and make some kind of hamasnik state...well then were done with them and they can just stew there in their own stinking mess....Knowing this will keep much of israel together...and its a price those in Gaza have to pay.

[Mira]

I'm in agreement with everything you've said, pelsar, but I'll point out that my concerns have mostly to do with the area being so overwhelmingly small that every bit of territory that is lost hurts Israel strategically and Israel got nothing in return for relinquishing gaza.

[pelsar]

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

[water]

wow what a people
what a beautful sight men and women in the army standing the cry with the settlers and continuing to do the job at hand with compassion
you are a nation to look up to
I can understand both sides the settlers beleive one thing and the govorment has to do what it feels is right for every one in the country
it is a hard place to be and i pray for both sides
thank you for being who you are as a nation
you give hope the this whole world isn't going to hell in a hand basket

[Mira]

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

It's all perspectve, right? With Syrian missiles at the border capable of reaching almost anywhere inside Israel, how important is the Golan? You outlined in your first post all the good strategic reasons for leaving gaza, but there are many increased dangers that come with this. Leaving Gaza IMO was the right thing to do, but it is a retreat and not a negotiated withdrawl.

[Mediocrates]

It has to do with how you bargain and what you bargain with. As of now there is one and only one tool in the Israeli drawer: expulsion of other Jews. That is how they will be able to respond to any and all demands. Just like the Palestinian foreign policy consists of BLAAAAAAAAAM!, the Israeli response can only be RETREAT. And whether it's fair or appropriate really doesn't matter. What matters is that it's self limiting. It's a weak position to be in from a negotiations perspective. Maybe that doesn't matter though, perhaps the whole notion of 'peace and dialog' the Haaretzniks are in love with is a stupid fairytale. But I doubt and most rational people doubt that unilateral action will work in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the interelationships are too complicated for Gordian Knots.

[redcake]

we not receiving anything 'tangable" from the PA....but were still getting things we need:

theres not much "strategic" about gaza....we dont need it for long term defense

Pelsar, while i agree with aspects of your argument, I've come to realize the bigger message to the Palestinians is that if you kill 1000 Jews you get Gaza, and probably the West Bank. Does that mean if you kill 100,000 you get Israel? We've given them the strategic front to try and find out.

[pelsar]

I've come to realize the bigger message to the Palestinians is that if you kill 1000 Jews you get Gaza, and probably the West Bank. Does that mean if you kill 100,000 you get Israel? We've given them the strategic front to try and find out.

that is probably the only negative aspect of the withdrawl....and it is a problem..one the other hand..and we are weighing both pros and cons....we left the Sinai...and that was good...we got out of lebanon and that too was good....I'm not a prophet, but in terms of what weights heavier.....it makes sense to me to get out and secure our southern border with a better defensive position...... (as well as my other noted reasons) will make a better future....or not...but then there are no guarentees in life and our present situation wasnt very good

[Gilgamesh]

you know what missing in this thread.....the reality from the secular point of view: I am secular, and a staunt Zionist!

First of all the quantity of soldiers and equipment that were required to protect such places like kfar drom was staggering......its a lot easier to to defend israel from places that are not surrounded by a sea of palestenians who are only a sniper shot away. The role of the Army is to protect Jews, citizens, tax payers. Not to do demogrphic survays.

Pull out, or stumpee which is a better description, does not serve anything, but the easy way out. Why fight if one can run? Give up the air force and armor brigade, cause we can run faster without them.

Our generals and politicians proved they rather out cast ignore and step on certain kind of people rather then to do their job and fight the enemy.
Why risk the future with the high court while fighting terrorists? When one can get the high court backing for kicking fellow jews in the guts?

And if money is the subject of this chat, what about the money WASTED for sending tenth of tousands of troop to quell a violance that never happend? The media promissed us rivers of blood over the pull out, and nothing. Full scale demonization of good people for nothing, mobilizing the entire IDF for nothing. How about that?

by being outside with a nice fence israel will save millions of dollars and lives by being "outside". The fence is a clear border....those who climb over it are "fair game". Both in Sadir and in Miluim, I serve at the fense, as Mo'di'in Sade. I know the fence. And here goes the paradox:
1. Arabs cross the fense easy, parash turky in seconds, in a car. Only a bullet can stop them. Open fire orders forbid opening fire, and no officer whishes to go to jail over couple of dead Arab smugglers.
2. Had there been proper open fire orders, there was no need for expansive fance.

Far more interesting is the exposure of just how far our religious right has gone.....way over the line. Attacking IDF soldiers, and policmen...these kids are out of control. This exposure may put some sanity back in our govt in terms of the way they've been educating the youth in the westbank...where their messianic version of religion is far more important than the israeli govt......if they 're not stopped now, we'll have our own version of the "taliban" BS! Typical goverment propaganda. See less local news, and you'll get the real prespective. There is nothing wrong with the settler religious community, the media over reacting, lieing and exagurating the reality.

and finally not only do the palestenians get their 'chance" but by doing so they get to show us what they're all about. you mean that the last decade of violance were not enough of a proof to you what the "Palestinian"s are about?

If they succeedare in making a pseudo state that works....israel will be impressed and willing to give them more...if they cant make a go of it and make some kind of hamasnik state...well then were done with them and they can just stew there in their own stinking mess....Knowing this will keep much of israel together...and its a price those in Gaza have to pay.Does it? Like where do you think is Gaza? New Zealand? When there were troubles in Lebanon, we got shelled, Katyusha rockets day and night all over the north. And when gaza gets messy, will we be spared?

[RoofRabbit]

you are mistaken about the climate here...
and you're mistaken if you believe Americans can differentiate between Gaza and Israel proper...
trust me, it's not popular amongst a certain age group to admit you're pro-Israel, even in America....
I don't know where you live, but I'd move if I were you. At least in my area, the supporty is for Israel as it should be.

The Reason Israel is having so much trouble with Gaza is:

Jdg 2:2 On condition that you should not make a league with the inhabitants of this land, but should throw down their altars: and you would not hear my voice: why have you done this?
Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I would not destroy them from before your face; that you may have enemies, and their gods may be your ruin.

The Arabs should have been kicked out of Gaza to start with and that should have happended with world support.

[redcake]

I don't know where you live, but I'd move if I were you. At least in my area, the supporty is for Israel as it should be.

I live in NYC. Maybe you're right, Jews should move to the South.

[pelsar]

Both in Sadir and in Miluim, I serve at the fense, as Mo'di'in Sade. I know the fence. And here goes the paradox:
1. Arabs cross the fense easy, parash turky in seconds, in a car. Only a bullet can stop them. Open fire orders forbid opening fire, and no officer whishes to go to jail over couple of dead Arab smugglers.
2. Had there been proper open fire orders, there was no need for expansive fance.

BS! Typical goverment propaganda. See less local news, and you'll get the real prespective. There is nothing wrong with the settler religious community, the media over reacting, lieing and exagurating the reality.

Does it? Like where do you think is Gaza? New Zealand? When there were troubles in Lebanon, we got shelled, Katyusha rockets day and night all over the north. And when gaza gets messy, will we be spared?

...i was waiting for your response......I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value"

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive.

[Ophra]

...i was waiting for your response......I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value"

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive.

Yo !! Am I glad to see you .... you are not the only secular on here pelsar, but we can do with all the help we can get ;)

"' and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable. "'

100% agree ... most of what I know about the HillTop Youth I learnt from my sons although I did do some reading up about them on-line ... they and the Khanists have their own forums, it's unbelievable what they actually say on-line.. pure sedition.

"" Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value" ""

When my oldest son was there , being piggy in the middle between the two inhabitants of Hebron , he spoke Arabic to a small Palestinian child and handed out some sweets.... "they" spat on him and cursed him ... he has never forgotten that .. neither will I.


"" the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have. ""

Ditto that !!

[Gilgamesh]

I 've served the last 19 years in milliyim mostly in the south (I'm now a volunteer)...in a combat recon unit, that translates to a lot of time on both sides of the fence, within the refugee camps and the settlements (so yes I know the every changing ROEs)... I hope you haven't ment to teach me what Palsar is.

and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....and many are way way over the line....members of a cult. I dont need the local news to feed me. Many have decided that their religion takes precedent over the Govt of Israel...and that is simply unacceptable. The mental state of certain individuals among the settler community, is totally irrelevent. Even mad Jews are entitle to full defense.

All that matter is their national and ethnic identity as Jews in Israel. You will gaurd a mental institution, once you get the order. You must never choose your assignment objective.

More than anything I value the values of my kids (14yr olds)...and the present situation destroys those values. Nice words to disguise an ideas of ideological purity, single nation = single mind. While you are at it, would you condone the estabilishment of a thought police?

Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians... Why should I care about the ideas of some teenager? Maybe he said so just to upset you? this information is totally irrelevent.

It is exactly the same as for me to dislike fighting terrorism cause the terrorists murder communists and anarchists in Shenkin St, Tel Aviv. Some Jews mental condition is irrelevent to our duties and consideration.

seems our vaunted youth and their human values on treating people has gotten them confused. Ever listen to the soldiers who have served in Hebron?....you wouldnt want to hear what they have to say about the settlers their and their kids....cause it sure aint complementary to any kind of "jewish or other human value" meaningless and irrelevent. I think the far left is the one who dehumise and under respect the Arabs. I think the far left is the one who is really racist toward Arabs, looking at them from superiority POV and denying then any responsibility to their own actions.

the "settlement enterprise" may have instilled values in to a "new generations"...except many of those values are not the kind that I want my kids to have.....they see the palestenians as "less than human"...and that is unacceptable. I have a better set of values that i want to my kids to have. Sorry, all hard I tried, I can't understand what the settelement enterprise has to do with your educational failurs as a father. If your kids skip school and do drugs it has more to do with the far left ideas of totall lieberalism rather then some skewed minds of some people in the far right.

The real Zionist right I am a member of, has nothing to do with either superiority or inferiority complexes toward the Arabs. All we care about is pushing the interests of the Jewish people above all, for one simple reason: No one else is expecting to do this job for us. We must care for our own just like anybody else, and never become dependent or expecting from others to care about us and our interests. Days of the diaspora are over! Jews have a goverment, a mission and an army.

in terms of security and its cost.....you may not like the reality of it, but its there. Its there in terms of equipment we get, numbers of soldiers in our unit, training days, etc.....Intelligent use of resources is essential for any society to survive. Actually fighting terrorism, actualy killing terrorists would cost us far less then any alternative. Since the goverment decided we voters are going to vote for them anyway, they avoid the effort and prefer just to run away.

[pelsar]

do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...
________________
Why should I care about the ideas of some teenager? Maybe he said so just to upset you? this information is totally irrelevent.


I was talking about my commander in my reserves (mem peh-now mah gad)..who lives in neve dekalim...who was totally embarrassed/horrified by the way the IDF treated them at the entrances...and by the youth from the westbank in their settlement

apparently both Maor and many of his neighbors dont seem to agree with you...and they actually live(d) in gaza...

I see your using the classic "cult" technqiue: rather than take new information and attempt to understand and/or use it to modify ones posistion you simply dismiss it:

sounds pretty much like a closed mind to me:

lets see some of your comments;
"information irrelvant"
I must be a "leftest" therefore I can be dismissed
"failed father".... (due to my concerns of the israeli society)

etc etc etc.....

.......tsk tsk tsk....hate/biotry is not really part of the judiaisim that i was brought up with...but it seems to be a part of israeli version...how long will it be before you call me some kind of "nazi" terrorist sympathizer?....etc?


oh and finally...this does "give you away"

The real Zionist right I am a member of.....
oh I hadnt realized that one group has the rights to the "real zionism" and all us others are mere fakes. I'll remember that the next time I visit the cemetary and say kaddish for my fallen friends.... that they died for fake zionism....btw..thats the definition of "superiority"...otherwise known as bigotry/racism and that sure as hell is not the reason I fought and still fight for.

[Gilgamesh]

I was talking about my commander in my reserves (mem peh-now mah gad)..who lives in neve dekalim...who was totally embarrassed/horrified by the way the IDF treated them at the entrances...and by the youth from the westbank in their settlement

apparently both Maor and many of his neighbors dont seem to agree with you...and they actually live(d) in gaza...

I see your using the classic "cult" technqiue: rather than take new information and attempt to understand and/or use it to modify ones posistion you simply dismiss it:

sounds pretty much like a closed mind to me:

lets see some of your comments;
"information irrelvant"
I must be a "leftest" therefore I can be dismissed
"failed father".... (due to my concerns of the israeli society)

etc etc etc.....

.......tsk tsk tsk....hate/biotry is not really part of the judiaisim that i was brought up with...but it seems to be a part of israeli version...how long will it be before you call me some kind of "nazi" terrorist sympathizer?....etc?
Communism was never part of my Jewish up bringing... tsk tsk tsk

For however I really respect your militrary record in a advanced reckon unit, it gives you ZERO points in judging the facts, let alone ideas. There is no reason for you to consider yourself superior above anyone this forum.

Infact, you avoided any of the issues I adressed to you. What the matter? Too much of challange?

The information you provided is really irrelevent, and has little to do with anything other then provide us some information on personal feelings and experiances you may have had.

[Mira]

Gil - I've read your posts on this board and TJ for a long time, and you remind me in some ways a lot of Begin, and I mean that as a compliment. A secular Israeli who has taken time to learn the language of the devout, you seem more than anyone else here to understand why Israel was and still is so necessary. If only there were a few more million like you in Israel who have such a genuine love for all our people...

Ophra - You are part of the problem.

Pelsar - I agree with you that there is something negative happening within Judaism. Perhaps it's a combination of trying to make sense of such a widespread destruction of the Jewish people in the last century and a backlash from the "effects" of Arab-Islamic nationalism that has poisoned some devout Jews. Some of our people seem to understand the Palestinian extremists more than the rest of us. Both appear incapable of overcoming the devastation from an irreversible loss in the past. Whatever it is that fuels all this extremism, I hope that we will be able to work it out over time, both on the Israeli side and on the Arab side. But I wouldn't underestimate what's going on here or what it will take to move beyond this point.

[Gilgamesh]

oh I hadnt realized that one group has the rights to the "real zionism" and all us others are mere fakes. I'll remember that the next time I visit the cemetary and say kaddish for my fallen friends.... that they died for fake zionism....btw..thats the definition of "superiority"...otherwise known as bigotry/racism and that sure as hell is not the reason I fought and still fight for.
Ever heard of the Had-Nes? (one flag) I'd eleborate once I feel like it.
There can be only one kind of Zionism, and the rest is a fake.
Our fallen comrades haven't died for fake Zionism, or else they wouldn't fight on the first place. But you already know that. You only press the buttom to trigger emotions and shut down the thinking part of most people. Ain't workin, sorry.

What the heck "superiority" has to do with anything? Your very attempt to hang on the words of some lunie teenager and paste it upon all other right wingers is over simplistic and do not become you.

[pelsar]

gil..your right I used "simplistic language and generalizations" to describe your remarks....because those were exactly the kind I recieved by you. (leftest etc)

but your "one kind of zionism" and the rest is a fake" remark...totally removes you from the ideal of a democratic israel. Perhaps that too you disagree with...but in my world we have a lot more room for all kinds of values and opinions...(up to a certain point)

my experiences are precisly the point...what one sees on TV, hears from friends, reads is not quite the same (and I think you know that from your own time spent in the army)....much of my opinions are based precisly on time i've spent in gaza with a unit made up of right/left and middle (even a jew for jesus thrown in...our medic). Our arguments, discussions and our missions out together show us how we can respect each other, fight together and still believe in different things....and all of us see the variations in "zionism"...without that superiour feeling that "mine is the RIGHT and TRUE"..and everybody else is fake.....

[Gilgamesh]

Gil - I've read your posts on this board and TJ for a long time, and you remind me in some ways a lot of Begin, and I mean that as a compliment. A secular Israeli who has taken time to learn the language of the devout, you seem more than anyone else here to understand why Israel was and still is so necessary. If only there were a few more million like you in Israel who have such a genuine love for all our people... Thank you Mira, very much! I wish hard I could have Begin's gift of speach. Guess I'll have to work on it further more.

You sure changed alot since TJ, so many years ago. Back then you had so little idea about anything it made me feel like chocking you. :) You've grown!

[Gilgamesh]

gil..your right I used "simplistic language and generalizations" to describe your remarks....because those were exactly the kind I recieved by you. (leftest etc) Forget about my opinions, you attempt to paint the whole right wing, anybody who wear a Kippah, think right or wear an orange ribbon, to be a hater. This is what I ment. You take the words of some fool, or even a bunch of those, and convince yourself everybody is like them, no middle ground. You consider the minority to be the majority. Thats wrong!

but your "one kind of zionism" and the rest is a fake" remark...totally removes you from the ideal of a democratic israel. Perhaps that too you disagree with...but in my world we have a lot more room for all kinds of values and opinions...(up to a certain point) One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology, most noteably Communism (but also brands of socialism). At the end of the day, Ben Guirion adopted many of the key ideas of Jabotinsky, including the Had-Nes and Iron Wall. In simple: A lefite must choose between his love for Arabs (worker class comeradship) and love for himself, when Arabs are after the leftie blood as well. When Stalin in USSR turned against Zionism, the communist bacame (again) anti-Zionist.

Since I am on the right, I don't have such dillemahs. I have no love or understanding for Arabs who wish to kill me.

Our arguments, discussions and our missions out together show us how we can respect each other, fight together and still believe in different things....and all of us see the variations in "zionism"...without that superiour feeling that "mine is the RIGHT and TRUE"..and everybody else is fake..... non-Zionist and even guys who can't read properly, let alone think clearly, serve in the army. One do not have the full understanding of the Zionist revolution in order to carry out his mission.

[Ophra]

"" Ophra - You are part of the problem. ""

Thanks Mira ..... I can't return the compliment because you are not part of the problem Mira.... you are back in America ... easy way out Mira .. easy way out ;)

Me and mine have been here since day one Mira... never left, not once Mira.
I've never been to America Mira... I know nothing about you Diaspora Jews , only what I have learned on here .. but what I have seen I do not like.

You cannot force your ways and your religion on us Mira .... and that is exactly what you religious Zionists have been attempting to do these last 30 years . It's no dern wonder you are all hated so much outside of Israel... now you are surprised we hate your messianic madness here :rolleyes:

[Ophra]

Here Mira ... enjoy :

Extortion by sanctity

The High Court of Justice is to rule in the coming days on a petition by the rabbi of the settlement of Elei Sinai, Yishai Bar-Chen, who is asking the state to move the synagogue building in its entirety from the Gaza Strip to within the Green Line. This is a disingenuous petition which, like other petitions of the settlers, makes sophisticated use of liberal principles like individual and community rights in order to carry out deranged messianic acts.

The walls of the synagogues, their floors, roofs and any other part of the structure in which people pray, are neither sacred nor sacrosanct. There is no reason not to take the buildings apart, sell them or make any other use of them the state sees fit. In any case, the communities will bring out the synagogue's sacred objects and memorial plaques. But moving entire buildings just because they served for a time as synagogues will create a dangerous precedent that will show up the weakness of the institution of statehood in the face of the settlers' emotional blackmail.

This blackmail is in operation all across the ritual board that stems from the teachings of the Yesha rabbis, Chabad and the like. They have sanctified not only the furrows of the earth, but the trees and the rocks. Neveh Dekalim is suddenly defined as a "holy place." The religious college may not be touched because it contains sacred objects, abandoning trees planted in Gush Katif is a serious infraction of halakha (Jewish law), for which transgressors will be punished in the world to come, and on and on with other inventions of this ilk, in the twilight zone between the devotion of the gullible and the simple, and cynical exploitation by religious politicians of their religion and their religiosity.

The exploitation of the objects is nothing compared to the repulsive and well advertised exploitation of the worship of God. Leading this line, together with the extremists of the Gush, are the thousands of infiltrators who came to the Gaza Strip - they and their rabbis. They make sure to show up for morning prayers just when the army has to open the gate, to call for grace after meals or afternoon prayers just when it is time to pack or get on the bus. They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around.

The soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces and the police are under tremendous physical and emotional pressure. The restrained and responsible manner in which they are dealing with the task shows over and over to every citizen of Israel the meaning of deep commitment to the flag of Israel and the symbol of the menorah on their uniforms.

The cynical emotional and religious blackmail of the settlers and the infiltrators, taken from the dubious inventory of shallow and kitschy messianic ritual (some of which is tainted by truly non-Jewish symbols), nevertheless manages to reverberate with large segments of the public.

The High Court justices will be wrong if they let this noise influence them. The transfer of even one wall as a holy object will be enough to plant the seal of approval on false-messianism, against the danger of which the state has finally began to defend itself.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/614017.html

[pelsar]

Forget about my opinions, you attempt to paint the whole right wing, anybody who wear a Kippah, think right or wear an orange ribbon, to be a hater.

Since I am on the right, I don't have such dillemahs. I have no love or understanding for Arabs who wish to kill me.

non-Zionist and even guys who can't read properly, let alone think clearly, serve in the army. One do not have the full understanding of the Zionist revolution in order to carry out his mission.

you keep trying sooo hard to show that "I hate the right wing"....since your talking about my family and friends...I get the feeling you dont get out much.

again your attempting to show your "surperiority" with " i must have a dilemma about understanding arabs who wish to kill me"....where does that assumption come from?...I actually have no problem with killing them.... but then you've made a few more assumptions about me...just keeping within your sterotypes so that you dont have to put forth an actual argument....

and it appears you have that "messianic zionism" about you....but then that also puts you in that position of "I AM RIGHT...EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG"..and consequently i dont even have to explain myself using logic.....

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....

[pelsar]

best show in town

"They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around."

funny how it reminds me of intifada I....we would watch the palestenians wait for the CNN truck then they would light their tires...if the CNN truck kept going..they would just leave

It so reminds many of us of "theater".....and yes I've talked to residents of those in gaza who also have similar remarks....

[Gilgamesh]

you keep trying sooo hard to show that "I hate the right wing"... I read your posts, its not hard at all to prove your hate to the right.

again your attempting to show your "surperiority" with " i must have a dilemma about understanding arabs who wish to kill me"....where does that assumption come from?...I actually have no problem with killing them.... but then you've made a few more assumptions about me...just keeping within your sterotypes so that you dont have to put forth an actual argument.... I gave you a plenty, you've answered none!

and it appears you have that "messianic zionism" about you....You are dead wrong. I am not religious, I don't even were a Kippah. Had you seen me walking down the street you'd assume me to be a far leftie, if not for my orange ribbon on my back pack.

but then that also puts you in that position of "I AM RIGHT...EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG"..and consequently i dont even have to explain myself using logic..... A short lesson on logic: By defenition, there can only be one truth, one reality. 2+2=4, always. 1 < 5 always, not sometimes. It is clear cut and simple fact. There for, I am right, meaning others who think different, are wrong.

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....so? What does that has to do with anything? Had I got the profile, I'd fit right in among you guys. I could even be you mem-mem, (only they sent me to Modi'in Sade, Riflemen 03 training, in Shivta boot camp).

[pelsar]

and just to put it into perspective for the other readers here, my commander who lives in gaze (still) has removed soldiers from our unit who have that kind of mentality since it ruins the cohesivness of our unit...and we are a microview of israeli society....

_________________________
so? What does that has to do with anything?

it has to do with everything...that a democratic society stands for.....the ability to tolerate and work together with people that you disagree with..and yes to accept that "your truths" are not the "truths" of your neighbors and respect him for that .....and your "one truth" is simply a belief...hardly 1+1 =2....

but you show how narrow minded you are with

"One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology"

zionism, like all ideals, never was a single entity...from the very beginning it has had various interpretations...your "purity" of the idea...is nothing short of cult/messianic mentality...and no way THE TRUTH!

[Gilgamesh]

it has to do with everything...that a democratic society stands for.....the ability to tolerate and work together with people that you disagree with..and yes to accept that "your truths" are not the "truths" of your neighbors and respect him for that .....and your "one truth" is simply a belief...hardly 1+1 =2....

but you show how narrow minded you are with so sorry i can't care for other considerations such as political fasion, or PC sensitivities. I am not nice nor do I try to be one. I only believe in what can advance my goals, and the interests of my group. I have no patiance to fake up to date political shams. My interest in politics is the result from wishing a better future, not to advance my social standing through compliance to political norms.

Therefor, I don't care for nerratives or opinions or compromises. I try to refine the truth. The forum is only a tool for inner-inspection. If there are multitude of turth, why should anybody decide anything? What worth one decision over the next? Why care about what other people think if their opinions are as good or as correct as mine?

"One valid kind of Zionism, the Had-Ness, means that Jewish human rights, Zionist ideas, are compromised and neglected when Zionism is combined with some other ideology"

zionism, like all ideals, never was a single entity...from the very beginning it has had various interpretations...your "purity" of the idea...is nothing short of cult/messianic mentality...and no way THE TRUTH!The Had Ness will out live you, as it out lived any other ideology. There is great room for debate and for different opinions, but only within the boudries of the Had- Nes.

[pelsar]

its 12:00 and i really have to start to work....(self disclpine for us independents sometimes goes "out the door).....

lehet

[redcake]

...and i am familiar with the "hill top youth"/other settlers....

Do you know what one of the major complaints were of the gaza settlers when the IDF started to ask for their ID's?....that they were being treated like palestenians...

Woah there. They are being treated in a manner reminiscent to what Palestinians have called human rights violations. Hell, they're even being made into refugees in their own country.

How many Hilltop Youth make up the settlers total? You're describing them as a cult, which suggests the fringe group they are...but then you're speaking as if the hilltop youth are the majority of Gaza, and their faults can be attributed to the entire Right Wing. Do you realize how nutty that makes you sound?

[pelsar]

misinterperted....the hilltopyouth....are a small, noisey, dangerous cult...much unlike the vast majority of the settlers in Gaza....and unwanted there as well by most....and there extremism is now coming out in the open

clarified....

[Ophra]

True.... but the Khanists are much larger and more widely spread ... there are other groups to. One thing they all have in common is that they are all financed from the USA !!

[redcake]

True.... but the Khanists are much larger and more widely spread ... there are other groups to. One thing they all have in common is that they are all financed from the USA !!

So are Peace Now.

[Ophra]

So are Peace Now.

So what ?? I am not a member of Peace Now or of any Leftist group .
FYI redcake the majority of Israelis right across the political spectrum want Peace. Well, with the exception of the religious right ... who just seem to want more and more of their so called " Promised Land " :rolleyes: ... and to get it are willing to murder Israeli citizens, Palestinian civilians and even our own Prime Ministers !!!!!!!
Correct me if I am wrong but have any members of Peace Now cold bloodily murdered anyone like the Khanists have ???????????

[Mediocrates]

And ISM and Women in Black.........

[redcake]

Correct me if I am wrong but have any members of Peace Now cold bloodily murdered anyone like the Khanists have ???????????

Yes, Peace Now are directly responsible for bringing back Arafat, legitamizing the PLO, adopting Palestinian propaganda, and excusing the murder of hundreds of Jews as a biproduct of the "Peace process". There is blood on their hands.

[redcake]

Hell, even Hamas recieve more money from US donations the comparitive pennies that go into Kahanie Chai accounts. It's just a moronic argument.

[minusthejihad]

"" Ophra - You are part of the problem. ""

Thanks Mira ..... I can't return the compliment because you are not part of the problem Mira.... you are back in America ... easy way out Mira .. easy way out ;)

Me and mine have been here since day one Mira... never left, not once Mira.
I've never been to America Mira... I know nothing about you Diaspora Jews , only what I have learned on here .. but what I have seen I do not like.

You cannot force your ways and your religion on us Mira .... and that is exactly what you religious Zionists have been attempting to do these last 30 years . It's no dern wonder you are all hated so much outside of Israel... now you are surprised we hate your messianic madness here :rolleyes:

You only speak for yourself. Stop acting as if you speak for any other Israelis. My Israeli family would agree with Mira, and they are not religious.

[Mira]

Thanks Mira ..... I can't return the compliment because you are not part of the problem Mira.... you are back in America ... easy way out Mira .. easy way out ;)
What a stupid comment, Ophra. My fiance raises venture capital for Israeli high tech companies. He was accepted by one of the best MBA programs in the world for this area of business. He loves his country and unlike so many people who just flap their gums all day long, he takes action. As a self-proclaimed capitalist I would think that you could understand our decision.

Me and mine have been here since day one Mira... never left, not once Mira.
I've never been to America Mira... I know nothing about you Diaspora Jews , only what I have learned on here .. but what I have seen I do not like. Since when is being worldly a bad thing? Perhaps you should spend some time outside of Israel for a while and broaden your mind, Ophra. Anybody who would judge all American Jews by a handful of posters on an internet forum is short changing themselves.

You cannot force your ways and your religion on us Mira .... and that is exactly what you religious Zionists have been attempting to do these last 30 years . It's no dern wonder you are all hated so much outside of Israel... now you are surprised we hate your messianic madness here :rolleyes:
Again, what a stupid comment, Ophra. Maybe it is the format of online forums or the kind of people that are attracted to them, but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these :rolleyes: . All my friends in Israel are secular and not a single one would lump me into the category of crazy that you attempt to paint every Jew who has religious leanings. You complain all the time that American Jews have a hard time understanding the complexity of Israelis, but then you turn around and make the same mistake towards diaspora Jews.

[Mira]

misinterperted....the hilltopyouth....are a small, noisey, dangerous cult...much unlike the vast majority of the settlers in Gaza....and unwanted there as well by most....and there extremism is now coming out in the open

clarified....

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

[minusthejihad]

If I was Israeli, I would tell Ophra to STFU as she is only hurting Israel in every way possible, pitting Israeli and Jew against each other, showing the world how hateful some Israelis can be, and discouraging diaspora investment and involvement.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=88040

[sharonbn]

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php?id=88040
what a farce. this so called "photo essay" completely ignores the violent actions of the settlers directed towards the police and army.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3129462,00.html

[Ophra]

You only speak for yourself. Stop acting as if you speak for any other Israelis. My Israeli family would agree with Mira, and they are not religious.

Your Russian family :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The majority of secular think like I do Minus .... then you also have the Leftists.... add that together you have 70% of the population.
Go read the other forums in Hebrew (if you can) .
We are going to have elections soon.... everything I say on here will be reflected in the results . Wait and see.

[Ophra]

Yes, Peace Now are directly responsible for bringing back Arafat, legitamizing the PLO, adopting Palestinian propaganda, and excusing the murder of hundreds of Jews as a biproduct of the "Peace process". There is blood on their hands.

Absolute rubbish . Wasn't that your excuse for Rabin's murder? :rolleyes:

[minusthejihad]

Your Russian family :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
.

Don't be daft. They are Israelis, more so than you. Just because you are born somewhere doesn't make you a better person or citizen.

[Ophra]

What a stupid comment, Ophra. My fiance raises venture capital for Israeli high tech companies. He was accepted by one of the best MBA programs in the world for this area of business. He loves his country and unlike so many people who just flap their gums all day long, he takes action. As a self-proclaimed capitalist I would think that you could understand our decision.

Since when is being worldly a bad thing? Perhaps you should spend some time outside of Israel for a while and broaden your mind, Ophra. Anybody who would judge all American Jews by a handful of posters on an internet forum is short changing themselves.


Again, what a stupid comment, Ophra. Maybe it is the format of online forums or the kind of people that are attracted to them, but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these :rolleyes: . All my friends in Israel are secular and not a single one would lump me into the category of crazy that you attempt to paint every Jew who has religious leanings. You complain all the time that American Jews have a hard time understanding the complexity of Israelis, but then you turn around and make the same mistake towards diaspora Jews.

The original comment you made to me was much worse Mira... and I have not forgotten the foul language you used towards me on previous ocassions ...we see you religious women using the same disgusting language towards our soldiers daily on the TV right now... they remind me of you... howling whining foul mouthed harpies .
"" but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these ""......Every one of you right wing religious racist monsters on this forum do exactly the same .

[Ophra]

Don't be daft. They are Israelis, more so than you. Just because you are born somewhere doesn't make you a better person or citizen.

Are they violent drug abusers like you Minus ???? That is the profile you have shown us on here Minus .... so are they like you ?
Most of the Russians over here are druggies or alcoholics or pimps or criminals of one kind or another ... all are extremely violent .
Want me to get the crime statistics for you ??

[pelsar]

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

no mira the hilltopyouth understand very little about anything...they see things as black and white..good and bad...and if you disagree with them....you become one of the bad guys. The are the "useful idiotes" of the fanatics who have taken advantage of their naiveté.....just victims of a "cult' mentality no more an no less.

[Ophra]

The hill top youth may be all those things, but they do seem to understand that you don't give up the most strategic vanatge points to a blood-thirsty enemy.

The Hilltop Youth are the enemy !! They just threw acid on our police today !!

[Mira]

The original comment you made to me was much worse Mira... and I have not forgotten the foul language you used towards me on previous ocassions ...we see you religious women using the same disgusting language towards our soldiers daily on the TV right now... they remind me of you... howling whining foul mouthed harpies .
"" but the way you attempt to lump people into boxes deserves one of these ""......Every one of you right wing religious racist monsters on this forum do exactly the same .
You are the only person I've ever talked with who would describe me as "religious," let alone a religious extremist. It's just more evidence of how far gone you are in your own ignroance, or maybe you really are just stupid :confused: I can forgive an ignorant person, but how do you forgive stupidity? It's not like you can change something like that. So which is it, Ophra? Are you ignorant or are you just plain dumb?

[Mira]

no mira the hilltopyouth understand very little about anything...they see things as black and white..good and bad...and if you disagree with them....you become one of the bad guys. The are the "useful idiotes" of the fanatics who have taken advantage of their naiveté.....just victims of a "cult' mentality no more an no less.

maybe so, but they know enough to secure the hilltops, don't they?

[Ophra]

If I was Israeli, I would tell Ophra to STFU as she is only hurting Israel in every way possible, pitting Israeli and Jew against each other, showing the world how hateful some Israelis can be, and discouraging diaspora investment and involvement.

Bah :p Idiot. It's you people on this forum that spread your hate on a daily basis at anyone that doesn't think like you do.... you critisise the Arabs for not condeming terrorism and then you turn right around and excuse Jews when they do exactly the same thing . Hypocrites !!!

[Ophra]

You are the only person I've ever talked with who would describe me as "religious," let alone a religious extremist. It's just more evidence of how far gone you are in your own ignroance, or maybe you really are just stupid :confused: I can forgive an ignorant person, but how do you forgive stupidity? It's not like you can change something like that. So which is it, Ophra? Are you ignorant or are you just plain dumb?

Nah Mira ... I'm just going to ignore you ... your worthless .

[Justcurious]

This Gaza pullout must be a big thing in Israel judging from the many comments presented on it both here and on the world's news media. For an outsider like myself, it is quite hard to grasp how sensible and modern Israeli people can continue to want to occupy an area that is not theirs.

Wasn't it part of Egypt until 39 years ago and more recently part of Palestine? Maybe I'm wrong, but the Gaza dispute is not of that much interest outside Israel.

Yes, I know, you want to comment... Feel free to do so. This is just one opinion.

[minusthejihad]

Are they violent drug abusers like you Minus ???? That is the profile you have shown us on here Minus .... so are they like you ?
Most of the Russians over here are druggies or alcoholics or pimps or criminals of one kind or another ... all are extremely violent .
Want me to get the crime statistics for you ??

Violent Drug Abuser? Me? Last time I was violent was in sixth grade ina fight that some kid picked with me. I won. My only violence ever. Wow!

Abuse drugs? No, I use marijuana every now and then. I'd hardly consider it abuse. As much abuse as you drinking a glass of wine in the evening actually. I guess that makes you an alcoholic in your wide world view.

And don't forget, your grandmother was a Russian-Jew, as were most Jews that live here and/or in Israel now. Your animousity towards them is evidence of a deep hatred of yourself. What are you hiding Ophra? Why do you hate your identity, your history, your own people so much? It's so sad.

[minusthejihad]

Bah :p Idiot. It's you people on this forum that spread your hate on a daily basis at anyone that doesn't think like you do.... you critisise the Arabs for not condeming terrorism and then you turn right around and excuse Jews when they do exactly the same thing . Hypocrites !!!

What are you talking about? When have I done such a thing. You must not read very well, or you must ignore any of my posts unless they have to do with you because you would see that I hold pretty moderate views.

[minusthejihad]

Ophra, I'm sure the moderators would agree that calling people "idiot" because they don't agree with your warped and small-minded world view, is not allowed on these forums. I don't want to make their job hard for them by reporting your post, so why don't you play nice and edit it yourself?

[Mira]

Nah Mira ... I'm just going to ignore you ... your worthless .
the feeling is mutual, my dear.............and then some.

[Sheherazade]

I'm an American Jew- I wouldn't call myself particularly religious, but I belong to a synagogue and observe our faith in a 'moderate' way. I also can be considered quite a bit to the left in my leanings. Ophra, what is your vision of the typical American Jew? Maybe you have not been exposed to a good cross section.

[Robmc123]

Iran and the rest are watching all that is going on in Israel, with interest. Syria and Jordan are waiting for the tit bits while Egypt rile in disgust.The Iranian Government already have programmed their computers at Israel before they have even worked out how program a couple of nuclear warhead explosive devices, how do we approach such a fanatical devide, only a short shared prayer will save us all. We are all to blame.

[Mei]

Iran and the rest are watching all that is going on in Israel, with interest. Syria and Jordan are waiting for the tit bits while Egypt rile in disgust.The Iranian Government already have programmed their computers at Israel before they have even worked out how program a couple of nuclear warhead explosive devices, how do we approach such a fanatical devide, only a short shared prayer will save us all. We are all to blame.

What has preceeded this handover to Palestinians, is the United Nations, a corrupt organization. Hopefully this will be the last lost land for Israel.

The US needas to carefully monitor the Terrorists, the Syrians, Iran, and
the Radical Islamics in the region.
mei

[Mei]

The US supports Israel and is not fickle as you suggest. Many citizens
are not in support of the UN as it has proven to be dishonest in its
leadership including misuse of funding, and in relation to Iraq's Saddam Hussein and the oil for food program.

many of us do not support the Mitchell Plan Pray for wisdom of our President and his staff to see the error of such a plan.
mei

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3127740,00.html


First Lebanon. They you can count on Syria, Iraq and all the rest soon. The Arab world will expel as many of its Palestinians as quickly as it can. You can count on most of them being packed off to Gaza. This will create a very public social calamity for the Palestinians who of course will blame the Israelis. The west, EU/UN/US will then pressure Israel to relax border controls and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will stream across the border creating a mass exodus which will overwhelm Israel. At the same time some domestic problem like assassination, civil uprising or mass terrorist attacks will cause Jordan to push many of its Palestinian 'refugees' into the West Bank creating an identical situation from the other side.

I moved up my timetable again from 5 years to 2. In 2 years there will not be an identifiable country called Israel. It will be one large anarchic broken mess with civil war, a failed ecnonomy, mass terrorist attacks leading to a near extinction of the Jews there. The region of Israel-Yesha-Jordan-Syria-Lebanon will collapse, there will be starvation and lack of water. The US will push its heavily subsidized Egyptian and Saudi allies to step in and occupy the region. All Jewish residents who are not expelled will be placed in camps 'for their own protection'.

[pelsar]

maybe so, but they know enough to secure the hilltops, don't they?

well Mira... I prefer to live in a country where the govt makes the rules and not some fanatical fringe group.....your "hilltopyouth" are not buying the land, not getting permission from the govt to live there...they are going out to dangerous areas, stealing land that the govt who is in charge of it and by virute of the need to defend those kids...the IDF then has to send soldiers out there as well.

May we expand upon your version of "taking the law in to ones own hands?.....I doubt very much you would agree if some squatters went to your local park and put their caravan down there to live....well i prefer to live in a country where the govt has the final say....and not some rabbi (you know the ones that say we can ignore our govt/IDF/Police forces.....)

you cant serve two masters....the result is a country that cant be survive, and that includes israel. You have to decide which side of the line your on...either the democratically elected govt of israel (right or left)....or the anti israeli crowd..and that includes ALL of those who believe that taking the law into their own hands is a "good thing", as well as those who version of judiaism they believe gives them the right to break the law.

and the pseudo excuse of "we know better" is pure BS, countries cant work like that. Those kids endanger me and my buddies with their antics. And if it was up to me, since I know better, we wouldnt protect them.....but the govt says I have to go...so I go and risk my life for them..thats how countries work...supporting anarchy is hardy supporting israel, its supports our destruction as a democratic state (which many jews would love to see-maybe perhaps your one of them)

and one more thing....i didnt come to israel to live in a theocratic, fanatical dictatorship...because those that excuse the hilltopyouth and their ilk are proposing exactly that (ask those kids...they're not ashamed of it)...the world has already seen two of those kind of govts...the taliban and iran...we dont need a jewish version of those.

[Ophra]

well Mira... I prefer to live in a country where the govt makes the rules and not some fanatical fringe group.....your "hilltopyouth" are not buying the land, not getting permission from the govt to live there...they are going out to dangerous areas, stealing land that the govt who is in charge of it and by virute of the need to defend those kids...the IDF then has to send soldiers out there as well.

May we expand upon your version of "taking the law in to ones own hands?.....I doubt very much you would agree if some squatters went to your local park and put their caravan down there to live....well i prefer to live in a country where the govt has the final say....and not some rabbi (you know the ones that say we can ignore our govt/IDF/Police forces.....)

you cant serve two masters....the result is a country that cant be survive, and that includes israel. You have to decide which side of the line your on...either the democratically elected govt of israel (right or left)....or the anti israeli crowd..and that includes ALL of those who believe that taking the law into their own hands is a "good thing", as well as those who version of judiaism they believe gives them the right to break the law.

and the pseudo excuse of "we know better" is pure BS, countries cant work like that. Those kids endanger me and my buddies with their antics. And if it was up to me, since I know better, we wouldnt protect them.....but the govt says I have to go...so I go and risk my life for them..thats how countries work...supporting anarchy is hardy supporting israel, its supports our destruction as a democratic state (which many jews would love to see-maybe perhaps your one of them)

and one more thing....i didnt come to israel to live in a theocratic, fanatical dictatorship...because those that excuse the hilltopyouth and their ilk are proposing exactly that (ask those kids...they're not ashamed of it)...the world has already seen two of those kind of govts...the taliban and iran...we dont need a jewish version of those.

I hear you pelsar.... I hear you ..but..don't expect anybody else to ;) We who are neither Left or Right are rarely loved by anyone .

BTW want to bet that it was those same sweet settler youth that were behind this today ?????........

Reckless Act/Pullout foes torch gas depot

Disaster narrowly averted in Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout objectors torch gas depot near residential building, write anti-Sharon slogans nearby. Quick action by firefighters prevents giant explosion
By Eli Senyor

A disaster was narrowly averted in the town of Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout foes torched a gas depot near a residential building. The pullout objectors also wrote slogans against Prime Minister Sharon, calling for his murder, and vowed the act was only the beginning.

Fire fighters managed to put out the fire and prevented what would have been a huge explosion. Police officials are treating the incident with severity and have set up a special team to investigate the crime.

The police characterized the incident as a "miracle," and said forces were stunned to discover someone poured a flammable substance on the underground gas depot's faucet. The depot contains a huge amount of gas for the benefit of area residents.

Police vow to catch 'madman'

Rehovot Fire Department Commander Shimon Gamliel told Ynet luck played a part in averting the disaster. He said a call came in around 3 a.m. regarding a small fire, but once firefighters arrived at the scene they realized the severity of the incident.

"The fire began spreading, along with a gas leak that resulted from the open valves," he said. ""Fortunately, it was an underground gas depot, with only its valves being above the ground."

"If this was a ground-level gas depot, it would have likely exploded and caused a disaster," he said. "Another thing working in our favor was the greenery around the depot, which slowed down the fire."

Police estimate the incident marked an attempt to exact a human toll, police commander Yifrach Duvdevani said following the incident.

"We'll invest plenty of effort to catch the madman who carried out the incident, which in our view is akin to an attempt to stage a terror attack," he said. "We mustn't forget that a residential building is located 30 meters (about 100 feet) away from the gas depot."

After the fire was extinguished, firefighters found rags drenched in a flammable substance attached to the open gas valves and sent them for lab tests, Gamliel said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130102,00.html

To those who find a way to rationalize the violence and excuse it I say that the tiger you are trying to ride has let out a roar.

[Ophra]

I'm an American Jew- I wouldn't call myself particularly religious, but I belong to a synagogue and observe our faith in a 'moderate' way. I also can be considered quite a bit to the left in my leanings. Ophra, what is your vision of the typical American Jew? Maybe you have not been exposed to a good cross section.

I'm sorry Sheherazade.... this is what was wrong with me yesterday :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130134,00.html
... and not just me... I think every mother with a son or daughter within our forces in the Gush right now were feeling the same . The anger over here yesterday was undescribable ... our kids have been so patient and so good with the settlers .. they just do not deserve this kind of abuse.

I am sick to death with the Israeli religious right wing .... and scared ...and worried for our secular Democracy.
You and moderates like you must speak out for us in America.... tell them what is going on here .... please .

[redcake]

... and not just me... I think every mother with a son or daughter within our forces in the Gush right now were feeling the same .....
You and moderates like you must speak out for us in America.... tell them what is going on here .... please .

Yeah we'll be sure to speak for you Ophra. You can't tell the difference between a moderate and a turnip.

But YES... I for one wil be sure to show my outrage that someone was civil disobediant in a DEMOCRACY!!! The nerve! To pour a nasty chemical like OLIVE OIL on your childred.... why that's just darn creative... I mean.... deplorable! It wasn't five minutes afterwards on CNN when they had one of the high ups with the IDF deny there was any dangerous chemicals involved. It was like watching a sandlot baseball team give the IDF a run. I know I'm not alone in admitting it warmed my heart, and felt empowering to watch. After all, it's the first time I've seen Israel show it's might in decades, and it was against our own people.... that's nobodies dream but your own Ophra....

... and I'm pretty sure Sharon committed suicide yesterday.

[pelsar]

we're doing just fine thanks...hopefully those who raised a hand against my friends and brethren in the security forces will have their day in court....and then if found gulity some years in jail.

protesting is fine, until you hurt one of us, and they did.....and those who do, deserve to be punished....thats how democracies work. For those who wish for the fanatical version of jewish taliban or iranian style of govt you'll have to wait some more.

in the meantime you can solace yourself in the "god works in mysterious ways" ....as the rabbis who said that it would never happened are now claiming....

[Gilgamesh]

we're doing just fine thanks...hopefully those who raised a hand against my friends and brethren in the security forces will have their day in court....and then if found gulity some years in jail.

protesting is fine, until you hurt one of us, and they did.....and those who do, deserve to be punished....thats how democracies work. For those who wish for the fanatical version of jewish taliban or iranian style of govt you'll have to wait some more.

While I agree with your post, I don't agree what happence in Israel. I mean the left double standards.

A soldier died couple of monthes ago, and another lost his eye because of "Anarchrists against the fence" stone throwing, on their periodic demonstrations at Bel'in. Each of these "Anarachist" rich boys, calls his daddy in his expansive cellphone, as soon as a policemen even looks at his direction and no meaningful legal action has EVER taken place. No police officer dares to risk his job. Double standards.

You pelser, knows to talk high and mighty against a fringe gang of far right wannabees, yet you ignore the hate and aid to terror of other group of Israeli citizens, Arabs. You and the rest of the media, critisis heavily produced and directed, "incitements" of far right media nominated "leaders" while ignoring the release of key Arab incitors. Double standards.

A rock thrown in anger by a Jew, is headline news. The same rock thrown by an Arab or far left activist, is "normal" or even encouraged. Double standards in the media, political system and the courts.

If the should be a law, it must be equally enforced on all people, without political biase, which became the symbol of our day in our legal system. The fact that the law does not enforced equally is alone of a proof of the left real agenda. Civil War. The war of the far left against all others. Ophra clones less out spoken and far more productive in marginlizing any other group in Israel.

There is no democracy without justice, and no solidarity without equallity. So far, the right have surrendered to the far left whims and caprizas, but you live on borrowed time. You can't survive of values of self preservation alone. Our values are stronger then yours, and our culture and motivation runs deeper and stronger then yours. We will run Israel, properly next time.

[Mediocrates]

I want all the law & order types to stand up and cheer on the day when the IDF troops knocking down and burning shuls are Palestinian Muslims speaking Arabic. I figure, 2-3 years at the outside before that's a regular event.

[Mediocrates]

The Hilltop Youth are the enemy !! They just threw acid on our police today !!


No. It was paint thinner.

[pelsar]

I am finding this place very strange...as if some of the posters here are try very hard to place me into a certain "left' sterotype"...where its easy to say "he is this, his is that.... etc.

i cant recall in any single post of mine did i mention how the security forces should deal with anarchists or israeli arab protestors or palestenains...so i guess you have me confused with someone else.

if you want to have a discussion with me, please refrain from putting "text into my posts", writing about things that i have never mentioned, etc.

just stick to what i write and try really hard not to place me in one of the stereotypes that you have in your head...so far you've been wrong....and anyways there usually off topic.

the subject is not the "left" blah blah blah..the subject is the pullout from gaza and in this particluar instance the injuries to the security forces

Our values are stronger then yours, and our culture and motivation runs deeper and stronger then yours
and btw...this above quote....its really the same old line that every dictatorship/facist/religious wacko/extremists/ says about democracies....its the old "were superiour" mentality and WE KNOW WHATs RIGHT for EVERYBODY!...and they're wrong everytime. The values of freedom and tolerance may appear weaker to the ignorent, but then thats a mistake many make over and over again.

[pelsar]

I want all the law & order types to stand up and cheer on the day when the IDF troops knocking down and burning shuls are Palestinian Muslims speaking Arabic. I figure, 2-3 years at the outside before that's a regular event.

sorry to disappoint you Mediocrates...but some of us in the IDF are very good at defending our DEMOCRATIC country..and that includes what we just saw: the security forces carrying out what the democratically elected govt has decided to do.....thats what its all about.....and most of israel and that is most of us slightly right/left and center are proud of the way both sides handled it. Our democracy is far stronger than the wackos in the far right and far left would like to see......its going to be long long long way before you get your "king solomon and his priests back in control" if ever (actually i believe modern judaism and zionism have worked out that theocratic/facist/dictatorships are a thing of the past)

[SteveK]

....

the subject is not the "left" blah blah blah..the subject is the pullout from gaza and in this particluar instance the injuries to the security forces


Sharon Blame Me not IDF for pullout

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jpost article.

PM: Blame me, not IDF for pullout


By HERB KEINON


Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said his eyes filled with tears and his heart broke at pictures broadcast Wednesday from Gush Katif, but that in the long run Israel will be strengthened by the withdrawal from Gaza.

"Criticize me, blame me, but don't harm the soldiers and police, don't insult them," Sharon said during a joint press conference at Beit Hanassi with President Moshe Katsav, showing a degree of emotion that was absent when he addressed the nation Sunday.....

read more:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1124245478740


So,why did Sharon put Israeli forces at risk in confronting fellow Jews to expell them from their homes, property,and land? Why was there a need to put Israeli forces at risk? Sharon could have just come personally with his eyes full of tears and his broken heart and have led the Jews out himself from these settlements. These Jewish settlers would have been overcome with Sharon's display of emotions and his depth of love for them. Then, they would have each sacrificed everthing voluntarily for the good of Israel and the Israelis who have shown them nothing but the deepest love and respect for their Jewish and Zionist achievements over a lifetime. The settlers' children would have come out to cheer Sharon, dance the hora for him, and thrown fresh flowers, from their uprooted greenhouses of disengagement, on him.

[Ophra]

sorry to disappoint you Mediocrates...but some of us in the IDF are very good at defending our DEMOCRATIC country..and that includes what we just saw: the security forces carrying out what the democratically elected govt has decided to do.....thats what its all about.....and most of israel and that is most of us slightly right/left and center are proud of the way both sides handled it. Our democracy is far stronger than the wackos in the far right and far left would like to see......its going to be long long long way before you get your "king solomon and his priests back in control" if ever (actually i believe modern judaism and zionism have worked out that theocratic/facist/dictatorships are a thing of the past)

Damn !! ... you are the best thing to happen to this forum since I joined .
Ditto the above ... and keep on rockin :D

For the rest of you :

Kfar Darom violence condemned

Bitter recriminations erupted Friday over the violence that flared on the roof of Kfar Darom's synagogue on Thursday evening. Some 70 soldiers and police were hospitalized, two in moderate condition and the rest lightly hurt, along with 14 protesters who were lightly hurt, after protesters poured a chemical substance - apparently paint thinner - on some of the evacuating forces.

The Army Spokesman's Office released video footage of troops screaming in pain, stripping off clothing and being doused down after being exposed to the chemicals.

Yomtov Samia, a former IDF general who helped mediate the evacuation of Kfar Darom, demanded that the settler leadership "do some serious rethinking" in the wake of the violence, by far the most serious incident in the evacuation process so far. He said the violent actions of the protesters had overshadowed what had otherwise been the overwhelmingly responsible behavior of the Gaza settlers, and had stained the wider image of the settlement enterprise.

Yehoshua Mor-Yosef, formerly a prominent member of the Council of Jewish Communities, the settlers' umbrella group, said those responsible were members of the so-called "Hilltop Youth," who had gathered at Kfar Darom and were beyond the control of the established settler leadership.

Israel's Attorney-General Menachem Mazuz said the offenders, dozens of whom were arrested, would be prosecuted.

The last of the Kfar Darom protesters were finally forced out late on Thursday night. Also late Thursday, anti-disengagement activists disrupted traffic on roads outside Jerusalem.

At the Western Wall, meanwhile, a large group of evacuated Gaza settlers and their supporters gathered to protest against the pullout. Some carried posters with the slogan "Judenrein," invoking Holocaust imagery to bemoan their forced relocation. One middle-aged woman told a television interviewer that she had "no home to go to" now that she had been forced out of her own.

The evacuation of settlers from their homes in the Gush Katif settlement bloc was all but completed Thursday night, after just two days of forced eviction, with security forces cracking the three "hardest" settlements, Neveh Dekalim, Kfar Darom and Kfar Yam.

If Friday's evacuation of Gadid is successful, security forces still have to evacuate Atzmona and Katif in Gush Katif, the isolated Netzarim, and Elei Sinai in the northern Gaza Strip. But with Neveh Dekalim and Kfar Darom down, the rest would just be a simple "run through," Insp.-Gen. Moshe Karadi told The Jerusalem Post in an exclusive interview Thursday.

"The police proved their might and that they were unstoppable," Karadi said from outside Neveh Dekalim's main synagogue just before security forces burst into the building. "At last month's standoff at Kfar Maimon we demonstrated our might, and that helped deter the settlers today."

Karadi said the two days of grace given to the settlers on Monday and Tuesday "eased the pressure" and essentially softened the shock of the physical evacuation. "People didn't fight back since they had two days to come to terms with what was about to happen to them," he said.

On Thursday, security forces evacuated Kfar Darom, Netzer Hazani, Neveh Dekalim, Gan Or, Shirat Hayam and Kfar Yam. Kfar Darom proved to be the toughest, as officials had predicted, with settlers barricading themselves on the roof of the synagogue and pelting the evacuating forces with eggs, oil, paint and the chemical substance.

At the scene of the evacuation, Karadi appeared furious, vowing to crack down on the settler protesters.

Continued
1 | 2 | Next

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1124331704933

[Mediocrates]

Stop being an idiot. First you complain you're being pigeonholes then you heap it on me. Your precious democracy is close to being the Free Democratic People's Republic of something or other. You'll all be so good at following orders that those orders will be in Arabic soon in either case. At least if the Arab MKs ever get organized and win more than 11 seats....

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by pelsar
....its going to be long long long way before you get your "king solomon and his priests back in control" if ever (actually i believe modern judaism and zionism have worked out that theocratic/facist/dictatorships are a thing of the past)


Here come the uncircumcized Phillistines.

Provoking the Living God of Israel?

The Torah leaders here in Israel must aready have gotten their wake up call to unite over the last several days.

How do you plan to fight the will of God? How do you plan to fight 3,500+ years of unbroken Jewish heritage?

How do you plan to get other Jews to expel their own Jewish souls as you have your own? You don't do it by just expelling Jews from their God given land.

O' great Bilaam, Priest of the Baal Pe'or, yes, curse the Jewish People,---
try it.

[Mediocrates]

I've never heard Sabras so outraged by al Aqsa wingnuts strapping on a bomb and vaporizing some Jews. I remember reading that the families of the Sbarro victims had to fight tooth and nail to even get a plaque mounted on the building.

Look, in the end the expulsionists got their way. They've won. And you've never seen them so happy and proud. 10-15% of their population they're perfectly happy to toss in the ocean. It makes one pause. And these are the people who wheedle and whine like little children that all the diaspora Jews are cowards for not being olim. Why would they? And why would anyone who's ever left Israel go back? I for one hope all the Israelis who live here in the US stay here and never go back.

[SteveK]

Stop being an idiot. First you complain you're being pigeonholes then you heap it on me. Your precious democracy is close to being the Free Democratic People's Republic of something or other. You'll all be so good at following orders that those orders will be in Arabic soon in either case. At least if the Arab MKs ever get organized and win more than 11 seats....

Medio,

Ophra took the words right out of my mouth... For you:

Damn !! ... you are the best thing to happen to this forum since I joined . Ditto the above ... and keep on rockin

[sharonbn]

No. It was paint thinner.
ting! wrong answer!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3129462,00.html
"but activists pour burning chemical substances on soldiers, who began to scream and remove uniforms;"

[Mediocrates]

As reported on American NPR radio news, live, on the ground, it was paint thinner.

[pelsar]

Mediocrates..youre a bit confused..... here let me help you out:

I've never heard Sabras so outraged by al Aqsa wingnuts strapping on a bomb and vaporizing some Jews. I remember reading that the families of the Sbarro victims had to fight tooth and nail to even get a plaque mounted on the building.


first of all the Al Aqsa people....we kill, slight difference between filling someone full of holes vs that satisfaction of seeing democracy in action....so yes we are quite proud of our accomplishements (in both cases)


I for one hope all the Israelis who live here in the US stay here and never go back.
yes well some of us have both backbones and the belief in israel..enough to stick with it, be a part of it...during both the tough times and the easy times...and then there are those who just cry from afar....and i guess wish we would just go away...

You'll all be so good at following orders that those orders will be in Arabic soon in either case

though you do seem to really wish for our demise...or "think we deserve it"...not this generation of israeli jews.....guess its hard for some to get used to us, we now longer bow our head and were strong enough to be tolerent of others....and we dont like dictatorships

[Mira]

well Mira... I prefer to live in a country where the govt makes the rules and not some fanatical fringe group.....your "hilltopyouth" are not buying the land, not getting permission from the govt to live there...they are going out to dangerous areas, stealing land that the govt who is in charge of it and by virute of the need to defend those kids...the IDF then has to send soldiers out there as well.

May we expand upon your version of "taking the law in to ones own hands?.....I doubt very much you would agree if some squatters went to your local park and put their caravan down there to live....well i prefer to live in a country where the govt has the final say....and not some rabbi (you know the ones that say we can ignore our govt/IDF/Police forces.....)

you cant serve two masters....the result is a country that cant be survive, and that includes israel. You have to decide which side of the line your on...either the democratically elected govt of israel (right or left)....or the anti israeli crowd..and that includes ALL of those who believe that taking the law into their own hands is a "good thing", as well as those who version of judiaism they believe gives them the right to break the law.

and the pseudo excuse of "we know better" is pure BS, countries cant work like that. Those kids endanger me and my buddies with their antics. And if it was up to me, since I know better, we wouldnt protect them.....but the govt says I have to go...so I go and risk my life for them..thats how countries work...supporting anarchy is hardy supporting israel, its supports our destruction as a democratic state (which many jews would love to see-maybe perhaps your one of them)

and one more thing....i didnt come to israel to live in a theocratic, fanatical dictatorship...because those that excuse the hilltopyouth and their ilk are proposing exactly that (ask those kids...they're not ashamed of it)...the world has already seen two of those kind of govts...the taliban and iran...we dont need a jewish version of those.

I don't want Israel to be a theocracy. I want people to respect the rule of law. I mentioned to you before that there is something wrong within some segments of Judaism. I'd get along with many Arabs better than those hilltopyouth. I could go on.... BUT.....ISRAEL NEEDS TO SECURE THOSE HILLTOPS IN THE WEST BANK!!!!!!!! Don't give a bunch of fanatical kids the excuse for anything. That is my point. I'm not on anyone else's trip on this board but my own.

[pelsar]

Here come the uncircumcized Phillistines.

How do you plan to fight the will of God? How do you plan to fight 3,500+ years of unbroken Jewish heritage?

boy...another one to disappoint.....that heritage?...ITS MINE! and my brothers and my sons, and my neighbors and my friends all over the country and world...and no fanatical wacko will be taking it away from me. You can have it too, theres enough to go around...but dont you dare try taking it from me....nor be so egotistical to think that you have rights over my heritage

[pelsar]

I don't want Israel to be a theocracy. I want people to respect the rule of law. I mentioned to you before that there is something wrong within some segments of Judaism. I'd get along with many Arabs better than those hilltopyouth. I could go on.... BUT.....ISRAEL NEEDS TO SECURE THOSE HILLTOPS IN THE WEST BANK!!!!!!!! Don't give a bunch of fanatical kids the excuse for anything. That is my point. I'm not on anyone else's trip on this board but my own.

shall i call you General?...or perhaps Major?...any military experience on your part?.

its upto the govt to decide what to do with those hilltops, whether or not they need to be secured... Those kids need no excuse to do anything they have all they need in their holy books and their interpretations.

you excuse them for breaking the law, you might as well use the same excuse for the suicide bomber. Its up to the govt of israel to decide and not a 14yr old kid....what other laws are breakable in your eyes?....what other aspects of the israeli govt policy have you determined to be "false" and needs to be corrected by illegal activities?

I guess you belong to the Egal Amir school of citizens for policy change...see a govt policy you dont like....ignore it or remove the obstacle

and your hilltopyouth...they want more than just the hilltops....

[sharonbn]

As reported on American NPR radio news, live, on the ground, it was paint thinner.
really? live? and the reported knew it was paint thiner because.... what? he was told so? he touched the stuff himself?

I happen to see the live TV coverage of the Kfar Darom evacuation on Thursday. it was on all three major TV stations in Israel (as well as CNN) the TV camera showed this: the soldiers were coming up the ladder from the balcony of the 2nd floor to the roof. they were cutting the barbed wire. all the while, the peaceful protestors on the roof were throwing paint, oil and sand at the soldiers, who did not respond, but tried to ignore and keep going with their task. suddenly, all the soldiers on the ladder fell onto the floor. few minutes later, a procession of half naked soldiers (one was wearing underpants only) burst out of the synagogue's front entrance and hurried into the vehicles.

Ynet reports this:
police commander (pakad) Sagiv Mizrahi was rushed to Soroka hospital in Beer Sheva. He is suffering from burns in his torso. His wife, Yanit, was watching the incident live on television. She said to Ynet reporter: "I never believed that we would get to that place where the protestors would phyisically hurt the soldiers and police. They said they loved the soldiers, they sang songs to them, so what happenned? A Jew does not treat another Jew like this! Their Rabbis should have stopped them"

Mizrahi reconstructs the events to Ynet:
"We were climbing two ladders, I was on top of the right one. I was holding cutters and stareted cutting the barbed wires. the settlers were throwing lots of stuff at us: oil, thinner, sand, potatoes and water melons and other stuff. we insisted on trying to mount onto the roof. suddenly, one settler threw some white powder on us that caused severe burn sensation. I told all the troops to get back inside the synagogue. downstairs we got medical attention."

Mizrahi said he also did not believe that chemical substance will be used against him and his men.

[minusthejihad]

I actually felt both great pride and sorrow while watching the expulsion of Jews from their synagogue yesterday.

[sharonbn]

same here.

[SteveK]

boy...another one to disappoint.....that heritage?...ITS MINE! and my brothers and my sons, and my neighbors and my friends all over the country and world...and no fanatical wacko will be taking it away from me. You can have it too, theres enough to go around...but dont you dare try taking it from me....nor be so egotistical to think that you have rights over my heritage


Bravo! Bravo! A wonderful speech!

As I recall, your original declaration of contempt was against your Jewish heritage:

Originally Posted by pelsar

....its going to be long long long way before you get your "king solomon and his priests back in control" if ever (actually i believe modern judaism and zionism have worked out that theocratic/facist/dictatorships are a thing of the past)

Motek, which modern Judaism are you talking about? You mean the Reform Jews with headquarters in New York who want to open branches in Israel to teach Israelis about their heritage?

King David and his son King Solomon being condemned as theocratic, facist, dictators????????????????

SHABBAS!

SHABBAS!

Gevalt! In 30 more minutes is Shabbas here in Israel!!! I have to go.

[redcake]

As I said before, CNN brought on the IDF in charge of the operation who scoffed that anything went on that was dangerous. He even joked that their suits are non-flammable, and made to wash off any substance. They would have experienced more pain from the paintballs.

[minusthejihad]

As I said before, CNN brought on the IDF in charge of the operation who scoffed that anything went on that was dangerous. He even joked that their suits are non-flammable, and made to wash off any substance. They would have experienced more pain from the paintballs.

I saw the same reports, and around the internet as well that there was no acid at all. But it seems that the Ophras and SharonBN would have rather it been acid just so they could demonize the settlers even more.

I'll tell you what, I am an American citizen, but if the government wanted to take more home, neighborhood, and my holy place, rename it Mexicanistan and evict me, I would not go peacefully. I am amazed that the settlers reacted with such restraint. Very proud of my people today, both the settlers and soldiers a like.

[sharonbn]

well acid, or not. people were hospitalized due to this event. Six injured policemen remain in hospitals today. search this "on the internet"
I don't need to "demonize" the settlers. They do a fine job themselves.

[Ophra]

Mediocrates..youre a bit confused..... here let me help you out:



first of all the Al Aqsa people....we kill, slight difference between filling someone full of holes vs that satisfaction of seeing democracy in action....so yes we are quite proud of our accomplishements (in both cases)



yes well some of us have both backbones and the belief in israel..enough to stick with it, be a part of it...during both the tough times and the easy times...and then there are those who just cry from afar....and i guess wish we would just go away...



though you do seem to really wish for our demise...or "think we deserve it"...not this generation of israeli jews.....guess its hard for some to get used to us, we now longer bow our head and were strong enough to be tolerent of others....and we dont like dictatorships

Bingo !! ..... he does it again :D

[Mira]

shall i call you General?...or perhaps Major?...any military experience on your part?.

its upto the govt to decide what to do with those hilltops, whether or not they need to be secured... Those kids need no excuse to do anything they have all they need in their holy books and their interpretations.

you excuse them for breaking the law, you might as well use the same excuse for the suicide bomber. Its up to the govt of israel to decide and not a 14yr old kid....what other laws are breakable in your eyes?....what other aspects of the israeli govt policy have you determined to be "false" and needs to be corrected by illegal activities?

btw i know a guy who thinks the arab villages in the valleys need to be secured...I guess thats ok too....
Actually I don't excuse them breaking the law...I never disagreed with anything you said about them. I don't think you need to be a General to voice an oppinion on the strategic value of the hills in the West Bank. All you need to do is look at them. So now I can't voice my oppinion if I'm not a general in the army? That's democracy? So what about all the Israeli moms who raised their voices over their children during the Lebanon war? Should they have shut up too?

[Mira]

SHABBAS!

SHABBAS!

Gevalt! In 30 more minutes is Shabbas here in Israel!!! I have to go.

You're still here.....

[Mediocrates]

Mediocrates..youre a bit confused..... here let me help you out:

No need to preamble your writings by pointing out you're snotty. I expect it, after all your an Israeli.



first of all the Al Aqsa people....we kill, slight difference between filling someone full of holes vs that satisfaction of seeing democracy in action....so yes we are quite proud of our accomplishements (in both cases)

I once lived in a democratic country that massacred people for protesting. Seemingly it was the people's will or at least the will of the people who matter. Prattling on about democracy is like prattling on about a new an improved Gulag if that's what it is.



yes well some of us have both backbones and the belief in israel..enough to stick with it, be a part of it...during both the tough times and the easy times...and then there are those who just cry from afar....and i guess wish we would just go away...

So you should agree with me. Anyone who leaves can never come back. The funny thing is that all the Sabras I know are the most secular and most hostile to zionism of all. They're sharonbn's poster children.


though you do seem to really wish for our demise...or "think we deserve it"...

It's more a matter of not betting on a slow horse. I wouldn't expect an Egyptian washing machine to last very long either. It's simply a matter of risk analysis.


not this generation of israeli jews

The next one then. I tend to think long term. In either case Palestine will enjoy much better formal relations with the 'world at large' than you ever will and much sooner than you think. Israelis I think will just get as tired of Israel as you are of the relgious zionists. It's hard to be a pariah when you don't understand why.

.....guess its hard for some to get used to us, we now longer bow our head and were strong enough to be tolerent of others....and we dont like dictatorships

But they sure as hell make the trains run on time, don't they?? I'm a NYC expat when Rudy Giuliani first became mayor what we said was "The thing that NY needs is a fascist, unfortunately we got one. Sure, he's a bastard but he hates the people we hate so it's all good".

[Gilgamesh]

No. It was paint thinner.
Turned out it wasn't even a paint thinner. The whole "acid" story was a lie. A staged performence, a blood lible, as MK Michael Eitan found out. He was the only one who actually phoned the hospital, where he was told loud and clear, there was NO REASON for the policemen to show up.

[Ophra]

really? live? and the reported knew it was paint thiner because.... what? he was told so? he touched the stuff himself?

I happen to see the live TV coverage of the Kfar Darom evacuation on Thursday. it was on all three major TV stations in Israel (as well as CNN) the TV camera showed this: the soldiers were coming up the ladder from the balcony of the 2nd floor to the roof. they were cutting the barbed wire. all the while, the peaceful protestors on the roof were throwing paint, oil and sand at the soldiers, who did not respond, but tried to ignore and keep going with their task. suddenly, all the soldiers on the ladder fell onto the floor. few minutes later, a procession of half naked soldiers (one was wearing underpants only) burst out of the synagogue's front entrance and hurried into the vehicles.

Ynet reports this:
police commander (pakad) Sagiv Mizrahi was rushed to Soroka hospital in Beer Sheva. He is suffering from burns in his torso. His wife, Yanit, was watching the incident live on television. She said to Ynet reporter: "I never believed that we would get to that place where the protestors would phyisically hurt the soldiers and police. They said they loved the soldiers, they sang songs to them, so what happenned? A Jew does not treat another Jew like this! Their Rabbis should have stopped them"

Mizrahi reconstructs the events to Ynet:
"We were climbing two ladders, I was on top of the right one. I was holding cutters and stareted cutting the barbed wires. the settlers were throwing lots of stuff at us: oil, thinner, sand, potatoes and water melons and other stuff. we insisted on trying to mount onto the roof. suddenly, one settler threw some white powder on us that caused severe burn sensation. I told all the troops to get back inside the synagogue. downstairs we got medical attention."

Mizrahi said he also did not believe that chemical substance will be used

against him and his men.

You know it ... I know it .
24 hours later on Arutz 7 it becomes a different reality :rolleyes:
Rabin was murdered by Shimon Peres .... don't yah know ;) ... and by the Shabak :rolleyes:

[SteveK]

You're still here.....


Yes! I'm still here in Israel and you're not!!!!

I really got to run now.... BYE... Hope you are having a great time in
Diaspora Land.

[Ophra]

Turned out it wasn't even a paint thinner. The whole "acid" story was a lie. A staged performence, a blood lible, as MK Michael Eitan found out. He was the only one who actually phoned the hospital, where he was told loud and clear, there was NO REASON for the policemen to show up.

Careful Gil ... you are showing your true colours ;)..... LOL

[Gilgamesh]

i cant recall in any single post of mine did i mention how the security forces should deal with anarchists or israeli arab protestors or palestenains...so i guess you have me confused with someone else. That's the point. You never mentioned it. You only talk about the "evil settlers" as "massianic fanatics" (a new word in far left vocabulary, they don't know what it means but it sounds good to them).

if you want to have a discussion with me, please refrain from putting "text into my posts", writing about things that i have never mentioned, etc. Attempting to avoid debate? Am I too much of a challenge to you?

just stick to what i write and try really hard not to place me in one of the stereotypes that you have in your head...so far you've been wrong....and anyways there usually off topic. Leftists are so much alike, reapting each other and parroting the same propganda, I always feel as if I talk to the same person. Can you blame me for this?

the subject is not the "left" blah blah blah..the subject is the pullout from gaza and in this particluar instance the injuries to the security forces The "injuries", caused by settelers are a lie.

and btw...this above quote....its really the same old line that every dictatorship/facist/religious wacko/extremists/ says about democracies....its the old "were superiour" mentality and WE KNOW WHATs RIGHT for EVERYBODY!...and they're wrong everytime. The values of freedom and tolerance may appear weaker to the ignorent, but then thats a mistake many make over and over again.What makes your position better or more right then the position held by Jews you hate so much?

Yes, I think we ARE better then you. I think our positions are right, and your wrong. I do think that in a fair and DEU DEMOCRATIC PROCESS we will take over. You'll need more dirty tricks like the pull out and much more ugly propaganda to prevent this.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CAD00.htm

The motor for these events is in New York and Washington, not Gaza or Tel Aviv. That is why Israel can carry on with its 'unilateral' disengagement plan while insisting that there is nobody on the Palestinian side worth talking to. The international negotiators wrote the script, and Israel can carry on reading its lines to an audience of international diplomats even while the Palestinians remain in the wings.

Both sides seem to be in a state of collapse, and their divisions become more entrenched by the day. It is the peace process that exacerbated this divide: the Roadmap calls for a 'Permanent Two-State Solution' and for Palestinians and Israelis to live separately (in 'peace and security') as soon as possible. Arguably, the first withdrawal should be that of assorted international diplomats and agencies from the Middle East. This might give the people of the region space to breathe, and allow them to decide how they want to proceed.

[Mira]

This will be my last point in this thread and then I don't want to continue shouting past peope with all the other soap box shouters. I will continue to support Israel no matter what anyone here says to piss me off and no matter what happens in Israel because I honor the memory of my grandparents who were persecuted in Europe and the ME. I support Zionism for them and for Rambam, Rosenzweig, Buber (ironically enough), the memory of yiddishkite and Sephardic communities that no longer exist, for the Jews of talmud-torah, and on this last point, I'm no different than all those Christians who support Israel because of the merits of our ancestors. There are plenty of Jews, both within and outside of Israel who I like and don't like. I will probably end up back in Israel for at least a period of time because my fiance wants to go back and I want our children to have at least a foundational experience growing up in a hebrew speaking country where being Jewish doesn't involve some schizophrenic existence. I don't know what is going to happen to Israel long term. There are too many problems to list. I take some comfort in the fact that the Jewish people have overcome much worse, but then again, those were different generations.

[Mediocrates]

It's Tu Ba'av, feel the love.

[redcake]

Well said Mira.

To those who are really dying for a chemical violence controversy - my guess is you just need to feel a little better about how upsetting yesterdays actions were - to that, I say grow up.

This was one of the biggest IDF operations since Jenin...maybe bigger then Jenin? ... the IDF goes out and does battle training against each other and there are more casualties. It's just exploitive to throw up these articles as if to say "hey we told you they're crrrrrazzzzzy". I'll admit I've said some nasty things about Gaza residents in the weeks leading up to this... and I'll admit I was humbled to see some very humanized, very articulate Jews reacting as they deserved to - with passion, and fight. I'd hope those of you in Israel proper would have half that fight. Even the Hilltop Youth turned in their guns, and managed restraint, at least for them. Put it in perspective for once. Let people mourn, and react without the immaturity of "I told you so".

The tragedy here is that people lost their homes, and Israel is at risk. I have no kind words for anyone who would argue otherwise.

[sharonbn]

This will be my last point in this thread and then I don't want to continue shouting past peope with all the other soap box shouters. I will continue to support Israel no matter what anyone here says to piss me off and no matter what happens in Israel because I honor the memory of my grandparents who were persecuted in Europe and the ME. I support Zionism for them and for Rambam, Rosenzweig, Buber (ironically enough), the memory of yiddishkite and Sephardic communities that no longer exist, for the Jews of talmud-torah, and on this last point, I'm no different than all those Christians who support Israel because of the merits of our ancestors. There are plenty of Jews, both within and outside of Israel who I like and don't like. I will probably end up back in Israel for at least a period of time because my fiance wants to go back and I want our children to have at least a foundational experience growing up in a hebrew speaking country where being Jewish doesn't involve some schizophrenic existence. I don't know what is going to happen to Israel long term. There are too many problems to list. I take some comfort in the fact that the Jewish people have overcome much worse, but then again, those were different generations.

Well said Mira.
and hurry back home. we miss you and need you here.

[frizzer1]

I'm only a diaspora jew so to some of you my opinion doesn't count,but I am so proud of the young men and women of the IDF who were so sensitive,so tender,so caring as they did the job they were ordered to do.
And although I don't support the settlements,watching the tears,the emotions,the people being forced out of their homes ,was heartbreaking.
Despite the incredible emotions and passions both sides acted with great restraint with only a few exceptions.
Many see this situation as a death knell for Israel.I see it as a demonstration of the nation's strength and ability to come through any and every challenge.

[SteveK]

I'm only a diaspora jew so to some of you my opinion doesn't count,but I am so proud of the young men and women of the IDF who were so sensitive,so tender,so caring as they did the job they were ordered to do.
And although I don't support the settlements,watching the tears,the emotions,the people being forced out of their homes ,was heartbreaking.
Despite the incredible emotions and passions both sides acted with great restraint with only a few exceptions.
Many see this situation as a death knell for Israel.I see it as a demonstration of the nation's strength and ability to come through any and every challenge.


frizzer1:

Israel from its modern day creation came through any and every challenge because of an extraordinary unified Jewish and Zionist identity.

What is happening now is completely opposed to any Jewish and Zionist idelogy and identity. The name of the game now is just basic animal survival
and greed for speculated future returns from an anti-semitic world more comfortable with an Israel which is no longer "threatening" a "Jewish Homeland", and all that God given Biblical stuff. By offering up these religious settlers as the sacrifice burned on the altar for world acceptance with the Israeli atheists' hatred, the world now can be certain of an Israel which wants to get along by going along.

And, the Arab nations of MT&IP have gotten their agenda that much closer to their final solution for the destruction and death of Israel and the Jews here.

3,500+ years of Jewish history has proved time and time and time again not to provoke the Living God of Israel. My posting on Shabbat is no where in comparison to the desecration of the Name of the Living God of Israel in the sight of the nations which is now being executed by this Israeli government of uncircumcized Phillistines with this expulsion of Jews from their God given Land.

When Sinai was returned, then Prime Minister Menachem Begin was a devout Jew. Now, we have Israeli government officials openly profaning the Name of God. We are in a most dangerous period. No Jew of faith in God believes that the "death knell" has been sounded for Israel. We know that this is not in the Biblical Prophetic cards. However, very stormy waters are ahead through which we will have to navigate. Only a truly Jewish and Zionist identity will again bring this currently rudderless ship called Israel back onto course.

[redcake]

So let's keep a tally.

1000 Jewish deaths = Gaza
2 Katyusha rockets = US Navy Ships leave shore.

My prediction, as soon as there's chaos in the PA territories there will be coup attempts on Jordan and possibly Egypt too. The PLO are tenacious, and their goals seem to linger. Jordan with it's right of return to Palestinians is a goner. This would mean Islamic chaos from Gaza, to the West Bank, through Jordan, and into Iraq, with Syria above and Iran at the tip.

[Ophra]

This will be my last point in this thread and then I don't want to continue shouting past peope with all the other soap box shouters. I will continue to support Israel no matter what anyone here says to piss me off and no matter what happens in Israel because I honor the memory of my grandparents who were persecuted in Europe and the ME. I support Zionism for them and for Rambam, Rosenzweig, Buber (ironically enough), the memory of yiddishkite and Sephardic communities that no longer exist, for the Jews of talmud-torah, and on this last point, I'm no different than all those Christians who support Israel because of the merits of our ancestors. There are plenty of Jews, both within and outside of Israel who I like and don't like. I will probably end up back in Israel for at least a period of time because my fiance wants to go back and I want our children to have at least a foundational experience growing up in a hebrew speaking country where being Jewish doesn't involve some schizophrenic existence. I don't know what is going to happen to Israel long term. There are too many problems to list. I take some comfort in the fact that the Jewish people have overcome much worse, but then again, those were different generations.

Yeah well Mira IMHO that's a half-way-house cop out.... but hey..knock yourself out :rolleyes:
Notice I never said you weren't welcome.... like I would to most on here ;)

Now you can't call me leftist anymore ...... Leftist's like sharonbn are good people.... only problem is that they are toooooo good and to soft .
They don't have what it takes to stand up to the religious right .... but there are others out there that do :D

[Ophra]

I'm only a diaspora jew so to some of you my opinion doesn't count,but I am so proud of the young men and women of the IDF who were so sensitive,so tender,so caring as they did the job they were ordered to do.
And although I don't support the settlements,watching the tears,the emotions,the people being forced out of their homes ,was heartbreaking.
Despite the incredible emotions and passions both sides acted with great restraint with only a few exceptions.
Many see this situation as a death knell for Israel.I see it as a demonstration of the nation's strength and ability to come through any and every challenge.

I could not say it better myself frizzer1.... thank you.

[minusthejihad]

I could not say it better myself frizzer1.... thank you.

BS. You smiled with glee watching those you hate being uprooted from their homes Sybil.

[pelsar]

no text

[SteveK]

... Now you can't call me leftist anymore ...... Leftist's like sharonbn are good people.... only problem is that they are toooooo good and to soft .
They don't have what it takes to stand up to the religious right .... but there are others out there that do :D


I suspect that you hear "HAIL CAESAR" only when someone in your family asks for the salad to be passed.

[Ophra]

no text

You have to develop a knack of ignoring those not worthy of comment pelsar.... it gets easier with time ;) :D

[Mediocrates]

There is no spoon, Neo.

[Ophra]

There is no spoon, Neo.

Oh but there is ;).....

'Jews don't do this'

Wife of police commander injured by burning chemicals thrown by activists in Kfar Darom describes her feelings on attackers
Meital Yassur-Beit Or

Like many Israelis, Yanit Mizrahi (25) of Beit Shaan watched television pictures of the evacuation of the Kfar Darom synagogue .

Her husband, police commander Sagiv Mizrahi (26) was one of the policemen injured by burning chemicals thrown by the youth activists who fortressed themselves in on the synagogue’s roof.

Washing off chemicals at Kfar Darom clashes (Channel 2)

Sagiv was rushed to the Soroka hospital in Beer Sheva, suffering from burns. According to Professor Arnon Vientzer of the hospital, the chemicals that caused the burns were a type of paint diluter, and not acid (as initially thought).

“The truth is, I didn’t think we would get to the point where they would be pouring acidic substances on our policemen,” Yanit told Ynet, after arriving to visit her husband, who is categorized as lightly injured. “

"They said that they love the police and sang them songs, so why would they suddenly harm them? This is not how Jews act. Their rabbis should have told them to stop it. What kind of education are they getting there?”

“The family saw it all on television,” said Sagiv. “Luckily, at the start, faces weren’t visible. Only afterwards did they see us, when they removed our uniforms and washed away the burning chemicals.”

“The minute I saw him without his uniform I realized he had been injured,” said Yanit. “I tried calling him but because they also poured water on him, his phone was wrecked. I called his friends in the unit and then he called me back, telling me that everything was alright, and then he hung up.”

Mizrahi currently serves in the Alon unit of the Border Police (a special crime fighting unit that operates in the north of the country). In recent weeks, he was attached to the Amek division, one of five that worked to clear the Gush Katif settlements.

“We climbed up to the roof on two ladders,” said Mizrahi, describing yesterday’s incident. “I was climbing the right hand ladder and carrying wire cutters in order to get through the fence that the activists put up. Many substances were thrown at us, oil, thinner, sand, potatoes, watermelons, just about everything… we carried on climbing. At a certain point a white powder was thrown at us, that caused terrible burns. I called on all the forces to come back down, where we received medical treatment. Eventually, other forces succeeded in completing the operation, and that’s what’s important.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130249,00.html

[pelsar]

ok lets now see if I can make sense of some of the posters here:

stevek...has this "Living God of Israel"...my guess, and please correct me if I am wrong: is a combo of jew and christianity.....jew for jesus (I know a few in israel-a very diverse and divided group)

mediocrates: pretty much believes israel wont survive
It's more a matter of not betting on a slow horse. I wouldn't expect an Egyptian washing machine to last very long either. It's simply a matter of risk analysis. nor does he feel sorry about it....since were not living up to his idea of the proper "jewish/zionistic" society...though i'm not clear what his version of that is

Gilgamesh: also one who believe our demise is inevitable.....but seems to be one of the wacko right...as his belief that the injured policemen (still in the hospital) was staged. Like the previous two, he believes were not living up to the proper zionist ideal (though his ideal is different from the others)..and hence are doomed..and deserve it as well.

the others seem relativly normal....each with our own opinions that seem to stay within the normal concensus of a democracy.


though I am not sure it seems the above 3 prefer some variation of a dictatorship/kingdom/theocracy etc that wouldnt allow for me, my family to live our lives with our own definition of judiaism and zionism....as we see it.(correct me if i am wrong...as i have made several assumptions)

if that is the case, its clear then that their versions of "caring for israel" is for the entity as they think is should be and not for the reality as it exists today...a messy democracy...that give its citizens as much freedom as possible within the boundries of a democracy....that puts them all out in left field..far far far away from the israel that exists today and whos democracy is defended by its citizens on both sides of the right and left divide, so recently proven.....and it is us, the vast majority that shall prevail over the nut cases

[Mediocrates]

mediocrates: since were not living up to his idea of the proper "jewish/zionistic" society...though i'm not clear what his version of that is


Did I say that? Show me where I did.


though I am not sure it seems the above 3 prefer some variation of a dictatorship/kingdom/theocracy etc that wouldnt allow for me, my family to live our lives with our own definition of judiaism and zionism....as we see it.(correct me if i am wrong...as i have made several assumptions)

Did I say that? Show me where I did.

[pelsar]

thats why i add at the bottom of each quote a request for clarification since I am not sure....so please clarify your posistion as it will help me make more definitive remarks.

[Gilgamesh]

thats why i add at the bottom of each quote a request for clarification since I am not sure....so please clarify your posistion as it will help me make more definitive remarks.
I don't see Israel's doom or hope for one. I don't want neither a dictatorship nor wish it. Associating such ideas to me, is quite silly of you.

What I've refered to was the left doom, and I do wish the nihalist empty segment of our society, those who believe in "eat and drink" and forgot the reasons Israel was created, will deminished, while the people who have values and willing to advance the common goals, would sucesseed. In other words, I hope is that in the next elections, Likud under Sharon would weaken, and the Labor to vanish completly. But ofcourse, for your enetertainment you rather consider any opinion about having elections as wacko. Good for you. Abolish the democratic process and you won't have to face up your actions against the people interests.

[pelsar]

ok..now I understand...you underestimate us...my family and friends. you see we're multitalented..we can go out and and "eat and drink"....and at the sametime we can be volunteers in combat units....we can go to the beach on saturday (in a couple of hours)...wear our skimpy bathing suits...and on Friday night have the traditional shabbat meal with our extended families. We can teach our children about judiaism preserve and respect our Heritage with all its variations, celebrate our holidays because that is precisly what our heritage is....a wonderful mosiac of various intreperations and customs....and in all that we have never forgotten why israel was created....you see, we are quite talented.

we can believe in a definitive set of values and still believe and trust our govt no matter if its right or left and fight for that govt even if we disagree. as we have...for most of all we believe in democracy as a way of life. We pay our taxes no matter what the govt, when called for the reserves, we come, irrelevant as to the present govt policies. That belief and set of values + our history and heritage lets us live in a country, believe in a country that has a multitide set of values without diminishing those of the "other'....but true we have one point where the line is drawn....when the "other" threatens our democracy with a replacement that is illiberal, be it king/rabbi/imman..etc Other than that..all are welcome with whatever set of values they bring with them.

If ive misinterpreted your beliefs then I apolgise.....i have very little patience for those that wish to replace our very imperfect democracy with some variation of the dictatorships/theocratic fascist govts that the world sees today.

[Ophra]

ok..now I understand...you underestimate us...my family and friends. you see we're multitalented..we can go out and and "eat and drink"....and at the sametime we can be volunteers in combat units....we can go to the beach on saturday (in a couple of hours)...wear our skimpy bathing suits...and on Friday night have the traditional shabbat meal with our extended families. We can teach our children about judiaism preserve and respect our Heritage with all its variations, celebrate our holidays because that is precisly what our heritage is....a wonderful mosiac of various intreperations and customs....and in all that we have never forgotten why israel was created....you see, we are quite talented.

we can believe in a definitive set of values and still believe and trust our govt no matter if its right or left and fight for that govt even if we disagree. as we have...for most of all we believe in democracy as a way of life. We pay our taxes no matter what the govt, when called for the reserves, we come, irrelevant as to the present govt policies. That belief and set of values + our history and heritage lets us live in a country, believe in a country that has a multitide set of values without diminishing those of the "other'....but true we have one point where the line is drawn....when the "other" threatens our democracy with a replacement that is illiberal, be it king/rabbi/imman..etc Other than that..all are welcome with whatever set of values they bring with them.

If ive misinterpreted your beliefs then I apolgise.....i have very little patience for those that wish to replace our very imperfect democracy with some variation of the dictatorships/theocratic fascist govts that the world sees today.

You just painted a picture of an average Israeli ..... made me smile.... it's good to have a real Israeli aboard ;)

[pelsar]

and one final note.....

when we disagree with one another.....no matter how much...we dont call each other "jew hater"...because not only do we know better, we also respect one another....thats just one of the "empty values" of us israelis....

those jews that call us "jew haters"...us the ones who live in israel, vote in our elections, pay taxes, donate to incesent requests for various causes, kill and get killed, have our work disrupted to defend the borders annally.....they are the ones that hate....It is they that have no patience for jews that have different opinions and it is they that are betraying our heritage and history....not us

[redcake]

So, Gaza residents by and large didn't fit that same description of the average Israeli? I can't think of a less valid reason to rationalize the evictions.

[pelsar]

So, Gaza residents by and large didn't fit that same description of the average Israeli? I can't think of a less valid reason to rationalize the evictions.

quite the contrary...most did.....which is why they obeyed the govts decision.
whats so confusing?

[Leon]

I for one hope all the Israelis who live here in the US stay here and never go back.

I second stevek...the words were taken out of my mouth.

Better to be a Jew in the diaspora than a Jew in "The People's Bannana republic" -- the land were two-faced politicans mislead their electorates, steal the people's vote, ethnically cleanse Jews out of their home and lock them up for protesting whilst Arab mass murderers are set free. What a mishoogaz.

[Leon]

Pelsar and Ophra, you can have your country, your government and your IDF all to yourself... cheers and enjoy.

[redcake]

whats so confusing?

Their rights were marginalized in part not just because of their address but because of their lifestyles. I haven't heard an Israeli on this board speak of the settlers without painting them as extremists or finding a way to distance them from normal Israelis. You did it when you went off about the Hilltop Youth, as if that faction had any stronghold on the Gaza population. You see, who these people were should be the least relevant part of the discussion. We're not talking about illegal outposts, and rogue communes that were dismantled.

[SteveK]

pelsar,


pelsar:

We can teach our children about judiaism preserve and respect our Heritage with all its variations, celebrate our holidays because that is precisly what our heritage is....a wonderful mosiac of various intreperations and customs.... you see, we are quite talented.

You are quite confused. Do you declare that the Living God of Israel brought the Jews out of Egyptian bondage and into their own land, at least, on Passover,--- and yet you have no faith in the Living God of Israel?

Is part of your "wonderful mosaic" making God into just a mythological character of the Jews? Or, did you just erase God altogether from your version of what you "celebrate" as "Passover" in your wonderful world of DisneyLand Judaism?

stevek...has this "Living God of Israel"...my guess, and please correct me if I am wrong: is a combo of jew and christianity.....jew for jesus (I know a few in israel-a very diverse and divided group)

Christianity got all its beliefs from Judaism including the concept of Father and Son, which is mentioned in at least one place that I know in the Zohar,- but not in relation to how the Christians use it. The Christians grossly misinterpreted the meaning to be God in the flesh, and there is no concept in Judaism rendering God into an object or image. God has no object and image relation.

On the issue of the Living God of Israel, refresh your memory: Deuteronomy (4:5-10).

On the issue of non-object and non-image relation for God, turn your own idolatrous eyes to: Deuteronomy (13:2 - 13:5).

The fifth chapter of Sifra De'Tzniuta

(Zohar II, 178b)

'In the beginning, the Lord created.' 'In the beginning' is a complete-statement; 'He created' is a half-statement. Father and son. Hidden and revealed. Upper Eden, which is hidden and concealed. Lower Eden.


pelsar:

... That belief and set of values + our history and heritage lets us live in a country, believe in a country that has a multitide set of values without diminishing those of the "other'....

....and in all that we have never forgotten why israel was created....you see, we are quite talented.


You are very confused. Had it not been for those Torah observant Jews and their Rabbinic leaders through the centuries, who brought Jewish identity and heritage and made the Jewish history through these 2,000 years of exile, then how would you have known what never to have forgotten? --- How would you have known about your connection and right to the Land of Israel, and your Jewish heritage, which you could then slice and dice for a meal or just a snack,-- according to your taste at any one moment or whim?

pelsar, are you that confused to understand that these Torah observant Jews, who you Israeli atheists and idolators castigate, were infinitely more loyal, courageous and self-sacrificing through these 2,000 years of exile, than you ever thought to be with all your "volunteering in army combat units"?
These Torah observant Jews of today are maintaining the Jewish heritage passed unbroken through these centuries now and for future generations.
Are you???


Here is a modern day example around the year 1930, when Rav Kook was Chief Rabbi in pre-State Israel:

http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/ravkook/thisweek.htm


pelsar:

... but true we have one point where the line is drawn....when the "other" threatens our democracy with a replacement that is illiberal, be it king/rabbi/imman..etc Other than that..all are welcome with whatever set of values they bring with them.

i have very little patience for those that wish to replace our very imperfect democracy with some variation of the dictatorships/theocratic fascist govts that the world sees today.

To the Torah observant Jews, you represent the current 3I's of Israel:
Ignorance, Irresponsibilty, and Idolatry. The way you talk, you could just as well be a gypsy and enjoy life in most anyother country of the world. The JEWS have ISRAEL and that's it.

You, the Israeli atheist and idolator, are NOW telling these Torah observant Jews, after their praying for 2,000 years for the prophetic return to their ancestral Homeland and suffering unspeakable persecutions, that NOW they will be forbidden to actualize the full Covenant of the Jewish Nation with The Living God of Israel from the time of Mount Sinai? And, in His Land of Israel, which He swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Do you really believe that 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage can just be made into chop liver and chicken soup for your "traditional Shabbat meal on Friday night" ?

[pelsar]

I haven't heard an Israeli on this board speak of the settlers without painting them as extremists or finding a way to distance them from normal Israelis. You did it when you went off about the Hilltop Youth, as if that faction had any stronghold on the Gaza population. You see, who these people were should be the least relevant part of the discussion. We're not talking about illegal outposts, and rogue communes that were dismantled.

Hard to accept that us regular israelis...listen to our govt?...perhaps i didnt write very clearly...the hilltopyouth are a 'cult" that attempted to invade gaza with their fantacisim...they were rejected by the long term residents of gaza...israelis just like me. Which is why when the IDF went in, it went so smoothly

[pelsar]

I second stevek...the words were taken out of my mouth.

Better to be a Jew in the diaspora than a Jew in "The People's Bannana republic" -- the land were two-faced politicans mislead their electorates, steal the people's vote, ethnically cleanse Jews out of their home and lock them up for protesting whilst Arab mass murderers are set free. What a mishoogaz.

yea well some of have the guts to "put our money where our mouth is"...others just cant take it....so they either "run away" or just stay away.

but i guess its preferable this way....dariwins process of selection....keeps the israeli stock strong, and the "loosers", the ones who cant take it, the ones who wouldnt know which end of weapon to point with, away from us, the ones who belief is so weak that politicians scare them away.....

we need jews who are tough here, who can fight for their beliefs...both within and without the IDF....we dont have much use for the "other kind"

we agree....your "type" stays away from israel.....

[pelsar]

To the Torah observant Jews, you represent the current 3I's of Israel:
Ignorance, Irresponsibilty, and Idolatry. The way you talk, you could just as well be a gypsy and enjoy life in most anyother country of the world. The JEWS have ISRAEL and that's it.


NOPE not in my israel...in my israel which includes the right and left, I am part and parcel of israel, perhaps to some "a wayward soul" to others a tradtional jew, to others "salt of the earth".....because in my israel we undertand that judiaism has survived because it accepts jews as jews without making black and white definitions.......those are the israeli jews of today. We jewish/proud/accepting/and tolerent...and we also "eat and drink and can have a merry good time...and dont feel guity about it....oh yea and those "torah observant jews"...as you define them, who are no longer in exile?....you can thank me and those like me that protect them from being persecuted as they were all those thousands of years...because of me they are free to go to the kotel, have their life style without fear of a progrom or a new hitler arrising...you see i have no problem with protecting my fellow jew..because he is part and parcel of who i am, part of my history and heritage. If he wants to dress like 18th century poland and feels its part of his definition the jewish tradtion, or that of yemens...either way I am up front protecting them from those that want to kill them, for it is I, the israeli jew of today that doesnt have to take any of that anymore,...not from goyim and not from others who attempt to declare me some kind of "non jew-jew)

and for those, especially on this board, who think were sooooo badddd and just cant live here....thats cool with us as well...but theres a "catch" you lose rights for us to listen to you.....you might as well be citizens of the Falklands for all we care praying to the penguin....oh yea...and i almost forgot..when anti semites come running after you and your family, as they eventually will....i'll consider saving your sorrya$$ but then "i'm not much of a jew am I...and israel just doesnt live up to your "standards"...so we''ll only "consider it"

[SteveK]

NOPE not in my israel...in my israel which includes the right and left, I am part and parcel of israel, perhaps to some "a wayward soul" to others a tradtional jew, to others "salt of the earth".....because in my israel we undertand that judiaism has survived because it accepts jews as jews without making black and white definitions.......those are the israeli jews of today. We jewish/proud/accepting/and tolerent...and we also "eat and drink and can have a merry good time...and dont feel guity about it....oh yea we listen to our democractically elected govt whether we like it or not.

and for those, especially on this board, who think were sooooo badddd and just cant live here....thats cool with us as well...but theres a "catch" you lose rights for us to listen to you.....you might as well be citizens of the Falklands for all we care.

pelsar,

Cut your craaaaaap with me. I'm not one of the Diaspora Jews that you can pi$$ on.

You just got through rejecting Jews, who are Rabbis, as threats to democracy.
Or, are there some Rabbis, Jews, who you would allow to stay in your Israel? In other words, Reform Rabbis would be welcome because God is also expendable with them. But, Torah observant Jews have to go when they pursue their dream of more than 2,000 years for their Israel, too????


pelsar:

... but true we have one point where the line is drawn....when the "other" threatens our democracy with a replacement that is illiberal, be it king/rabbi/imman..etc Other than that..all are welcome with whatever set of values they bring with them.

Here are some very basic enabling JEWISH LAWS from the word of The Living God of Israel for bringing Israel to be a Torah Nation:

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

The following are the blessings and curses which the Jewish People accepted for their Covenant with God. The curses have certainy been executed against the Jews in their drastic forms over the 2,000 years of exile:

The Blessings and the Curses:

Deuteronomy (27:1 - 28:69)

[pelsar]

stevek... you are living here...and in that in itself lets me respect you...for you are living out your beliefs here...and are part of my israel.

We may vote differently, we may wish for different things....but when I go to milliyim i go for you as much as I go for non religious neighbor in zichron as well as my cousin in mei sharim, my brother in hoshiay, my friend in Aztmona and my "jew for jesus friend in maale adumim.....and I dont differentiate. And along the same lines i know very well that my cousin in meir sharim, my brother and friends all pray for me to "see the light" as they do...and each sees and defines that light differently. Me?...just for the record...my definition of that "light" is the flash that comes out of the barrell of my weapon when i fire it

your stuck with me......and i am stuck with you..but that i consider part of my heritage and am proud of it...and now It time for me to take my family to the casarea beach....way too much time on the computer..

shabbat shalom

[SteveK]

stevek... you are living here...and in that in itself lets me respect you...for you are living out your beliefs here...and are part of my israel.

We may vote differently, we may wish for different things....but when I go to milliyim i go for you as much as I go for non religious neighbor in zichron as well as my cousin in mei sharim, my brother in hoshiay, my friend in Aztmona and my "jew for jesus friend in maale adumim.....and I dont differentiate

your stuck with me......and i am stuck with you..but that i consider part of my heritage and am proud of it...and now It time for me to take my family to the casarea beach....way too much time on the computer..

shabbat shalom


pelsar,

I hope that you all had a nice time at the beach.

I didn't make aliyah to Israel "to live out my beliefs" as I lived out my beliefs in America in four walls of an American suburban shul.

Torah is about the governace of the united sovereign Jewish Nation.
It's not about some religious rituals in a Brooklyn or Jerusalem synagogue.

Torah means absolutely nothing without faith and awe in The Living God of Israel?


Talmud Bavli (Tractate: Berachos 33b):

And R' Chanina said:

"הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים "

"Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven."

as it states: "And now, Israel, what does Hashem, your God, ask of you, but merely to fear [Hashem, your God]" (Deuteronomy 10:12)

"The Holy One, Blessed is He, has nothing in His treasure house other than a store of fear of Heaven.",- as the verse states (Isaiah 33:6): "The fear of Hashem, that is His treasure."


Why doesn't our nation have enough depth and breadth of perspective after 3,500+ years of unbroken tradition to enable our faith, trust, and awe such that we can bring The Living God of Israel into national prominence, and truly sanctify Him, as the God of our Pesach story, and His Torah,- in the sight of the nations?

[Gilgamesh]

ok..now I understand...you underestimate us...my family and friends. you see we're multitalented..we can go out and and "eat and drink"...
La'beri'ut. So do I, but eating and drinking isn't the sum of my values, like some people I post with.

.and at the sametime we can be volunteers in combat units...Good to know, yet you fail to explain why you bother.
I know very well why I do Milu'im. How about you?

.we can go to the beach on saturday (in a couple of hours)...wear our skimpy bathing suits... I don't have a beach where I live.

We can teach our children about judiaism preserve and respect our Heritage with all its variations, celebrate our holidays because that is precisly what our heritage is... Let me doubt that. My Judaism do not include Jay-sus, and I quite despise the idea of turning the other cheak, so charestaristic of modern leftic politics, forum posts and media.

and in all that we have never forgotten why israel was created....you see, we are quite talented. The above sentance of yours, is not collaborated by any of your other posts, or your attitude hostile of vast segements of the Israeli population. For you it seems, whoever isn't a Leftie, he is automaticly "Hilltop youth". It is far easier to describle any rival as extremists then doing some basic soule shearch, and check on the basic assumptions. The defenition for people like you, Pelsar (btw, why pelsar and not palsar as it commonly pronaunced?) is a bigot, who is indeferent to political colors or shades.

we can believe in a definitive set of values and still believe and trust our govt no matter if its right or left and fight for that govt even if we disagree.

as we have...for most of all we believe in democracy as a way of life. We pay our taxes no matter what the govt, when called for the reserves, we come, irrelevant as to the present govt policies. That belief and set of values + our history and heritage lets us live in a country, believe in a country that has a multitide set of values without diminishing those of the "other'....but true we have one point where the line is drawn... It is not how the lefties behave. Aspecialy regarding the settlers. For you lefies, army is only sport, a matter of convinance. Where ever it is less conviniant to serve, they refuse, skip, avoid.
Why fight terror, when you can just scoop Jews out of their homes as if they were somebodies toys? Where is the value of solidarity, when people avoid their duties to one another? Once Ashkelon gets bombed, will you recommand abondoning these townfolk too? After all, they are not "real Israelis" like you, do they? hence they must be all "Hilltop youth" determind to live in a hazaradus ground, are they not?. Isn't that how your logic works?

I remeber the delegitimation of Defensive Shield by lefties. How does that grow up with your idea of serving the goverment "right or left" ?

Democracy, nation-state, man made laws, are just modern instruments to create a functioning society, not ideals of their own, and not subject of worship. Democracy and freedoms are only used to advance certain ideals. Democracy will be foresaken once a better social arrangement would come along. Currently, there is nothing better then democracy, there for, we are democratic.

Laws, which are made to advance the position of a minority on the expance of the many, are not democratic and ment to be broken. Laws and democracy can be both abused, as being done right now in our Israel. Standing by such laws do not serve Jewish interests, or any interest of the general voting population in Israel. They are nothning less the a knife in the back of many good citizens.

Today it's Gush Katif, tomorrow Sderoth, and the day after? Haifa?

.when the "other" threatens our democracy with a replacement that is illiberal, be it king/rabbi/imman..etc Other than that..all are welcome with whatever set of values they bring with them. I don't believe you.
Your exaguration of the influance of some groups in our society, are not the mark of a person willing to be in touch with reality or able to welcome the "others". Unless, "others" can only mean Arabs, for you Arabs.

If ive misinterpreted your beliefs then I apolgise.....i have very little patience for those that wish to replace our very imperfect democracy with some variation of the dictatorships/theocratic fascist govts that the world sees today. Read my post, if you can. Where have I mention I welcome theocracy or dictatorship? You think that because I am right wing, means I automaticly a facist? And you call yourself "openminded"... what a joke!

[Mira]

Well said Mira.
and hurry back home. we miss you and need you here.

Thanks. And I agree with frizzer that I also see strength in what is happening too.

[Mira]

...wear our skimpy bathing suits...

Are you a woman or man? What kind of bathing suit are we talking about here?

[minusthejihad]

and one final note.....

when we disagree with one another.....no matter how much...we dont call each other "jew hater"...because not only do we know better, we also respect one another....thats just one of the "empty values" of us israelis....

those jews that call us "jew haters"...us the ones who live in israel, vote in our elections, pay taxes, donate to incesent requests for various causes, kill and get killed, have our work disrupted to defend the borders annally.....they are the ones that hate....It is they that have no patience for jews that have different opinions and it is they that are betraying our heritage and history....not us

I'd do a little more research by reading Ophra's many anti-semitic and other descriminary posts befor ehitching your wagon to hers. She openly insults all Diaspora Jews, Russian-Jews like me (calling us Ruskies), Religious Jews and has on many occassions stated that she is offended when you call her a Jew, because she is just an "Israeli".

Now I remember enjoying your posts here over a year ago, but at the time I never expected that any proud Jew, would side with Ophra on any issue. Right now you are being played for a fool by her, and I feel sorry for you.

[Ophra]

stevek... you are living here...and in that in itself lets me respect you...for you are living out your beliefs here...and are part of my israel.

We may vote differently, we may wish for different things....but when I go to milliyim i go for you as much as I go for non religious neighbor in zichron as well as my cousin in mei sharim, my brother in hoshiay, my friend in Aztmona and my "jew for jesus friend in maale adumim.....and I dont differentiate. And along the same lines i know very well that my cousin in meir sharim, my brother and friends all pray for me to "see the light" as they do...and each sees and defines that light differently. Me?...just for the record...my definition of that "light" is the flash that comes out of the barrell of my weapon when i fire it

your stuck with me......and i am stuck with you..but that i consider part of my heritage and am proud of it...and now It time for me to take my family to the casarea beach....way too much time on the computer..

shabbat shalom

Yo pelsar ! .... I just noticed Zichron Yaacov.........I'm very close to you .... we just got back from the beach at Hof Yani :)

[minusthejihad]

Pelsar and Ophra, you can have your country, your government and your IDF all to yourself... cheers and enjoy.

No they can't. There are just as many Israelis who don't agree with them as well. You're going to let one Israeli you don't agree with (Pelsar) and another complete fool influence how you feel about their country. My family in Israel disagrees with them and are just as Israeli as them, no matter how arrogant they can get about their beloved citizenship.

[Ophra]

I'd do a little more research by reading Ophra's many anti-semitic and other descriminary posts befor ehitching your wagon to hers. She openly insults all Diaspora Jews, Russian-Jews like me (calling us Ruskies), Religious Jews and has on many occassions stated that she is offended when you call her a Jew, because she is just an "Israeli".

Now I remember enjoying your posts here over a year ago, but at the time I never expected that any proud Jew, would side with Ophra on any issue. Right now you are being played for a fool by her, and I feel sorry for you.

Minus you are obsessed with me ... you harass my every post .

This whole thing started because you were convinced I am a Leftist, to you Leftist's are the devil's spawn, must be a left over from life in Russia ;)
Anyhow Israeli Leftist's are not the same as American Leftist's ... and everyone has a right to an opinion without being threatened with physical violence like you did to me .... and stop lying about it Minus please because everybody saw your threat.
I have NOT made any anti-Semitic posts... stop being ridiculous !!
I defend myself when attacked Minus .... us Israelis are taught to do that early in life ;) .... stop attacking my way of life and my believes with personal attacks and I will stop retaliating .... we have already had this conversation.
BTW I had to switch off my PM's because you were harassing me with them to .... so stop playing the innocent .... you also told me that you had my IP address and e-mail from a moderator friend ... I'm sure we can all guess who .
I said I was an Israeli before I was a Jew .... Rabin used to say that to ;)...guess you have another excuse for defending your moderator friend's desecration of Rabin's memorial .

[pelsar]

Gilgamesh...you definitly have a problem with comprehending what i write....for reasons unexplicable to me you call me a "leftie"..and then go and contradict yourself by saying my actions arent like a leftie...very very confusing


For you it seems, whoever isn't a Leftie, he is automaticly "Hilltop youth". It is far easier to describle any rival as extremists then doing some basic soule shearch

more so, again for reasons that arent clear you have some weird claim that i am hostile/bigot to anybody who disagrees with me...care to find anything in my posts that back you up...anything specific?.....and when you dont we shall wonder if you have the backbone to apologies and explain why you make such blanket statements based on nothing....



why pelsar and not palsar as it commonly pronaunced?
so i wouldnt run into a conflict somewhere "down the line"..figuring no one else would have such a strange word. and I am obviously proud of getting into such a unit and serving with some of israels finest.

I guess you should decide if I'm a "leftie" or not....If I 'm not then i dont fit your comments, and if so why bother telling me what a "leftie thinks?...and if you have decided that I am a "leftie" than you dont know much about my version:

It is not how the lefties behave. Aspecialy regarding the settlers. For you lefies, army is only sport, a matter of convinance. Where ever it is less conviniant to serve, they refuse, skip, avoid.


do you really want me to comment on this because it really does disgust me..and it takes quite a lot to do that: More so it degrades those that have served with me....all of them volunteers

..I am independent..that means when i do my milliyim service which avgs twice a year, its costs me not just time away from work, but clients, who cant have that kind of interuption..its costs me marking time and potential work....its costs...and for "sport" i've been in the back alleys of jebaliya, rahah, gaza city, chan yunis, nur el shamps, tulkarim...i could go one. but i suspect you get the picture...oh yea my unit?...made up of quite a few "lefties...who have been killed and wounded...for your definition of "sport" and righties who have risked their lives to save those "lefties"....you know something....your comment above more and more disgusts me as i remember what my unit has done and how each of the individuals has put and continues to put their lives on the line and i remember those that we buried....and yes many are LEFTIES...and their reserve service..of which they all volunteer to do is hardly a "sport".......I'll remind my buddies that that next time we are trying not to fall asleep in while laying in an ambush....

Its clear to me that whatever you've done....and the army is made up of a large variety of people who serve different needs...you havent been where I have, because if you have you wouldnt dare write like that...you would know better.


Once Ashkelon gets bombed, will you recommand abondoning these townfolk too? After all, they are not "real Israelis" like you, do they? hence they must be all "Hilltop youth" determind to live in a hazaradus ground, are they not?. Isn't that how your logic works?

BTW you really are "out there"....since all you seem to do is make up stuff:Care to show me where i wrote that people in ashkelon are equivelant to "hilltopyouth? or for that matter those in gush katif?....and after you cant you can explain why are you attributing such nonsense to me.

let me repeat that...explain why you keep making up stuff and atributing it to me...(or back it up with some solid info and not wild assumptions)


Read my post, if you can. Where have I mention I welcome theocracy or dictatorship? You think that because I am right wing, means I automaticly a facist? And you call yourself "openminded"... what a joke!

if your read my post...I specifically asked for clarification if i misinterpreted.....try reading it again.


so far you've managed to assume I'm some kind of "leftie" who by definition thinks military service is a game...believes anybody who disagrees with me is equivilant to a "hilltopyouth" extremist...you mentioned Defensive Shield as being delegitized by "lefties"...are you talking about me?...if you are then once again you are WRONG!...if your talking about others....i have nothing to do with them, and would find such an opinion rather disgusting.

your trying very very hard to put me into some kind of stereotype....to do so you have to make up stuff and make all kinds of assumptions...all of which are extremly weak... but worst in my eyes are the way you belittle and insult the israeli citizens who have served and continue to serve with me in the IDF....very few israeli citizens do combat reserve service and we are all volunteers....lets just see if you can manage at least 15 years of service, during college exams, children being born, starting new businesses, etc going twice at year if need be....sometimes with no more than a months notice....most cant handle that.....and if you can...no doubt you wouldnt have written what you did about us..because that US is all inclusive in includes us right/left/center/doti/chiloni....i cant express in words my disgust the way you've generalized about 'lefties" not serving and thinking its a game.....whos the bigot here?

i'll give you a website to go to.....its over 500 pictures of random picts of a combat recon unit since 2001....some of those people are lefties, some are righties...I'll bet you cant tell the difference.....oh yea...and some are dead!
(only works on explorer pc)

http://www.miluimnik.co.il/pelsar460

[pelsar]

Are you a woman or man? What kind of bathing suit are we talking about here?

male....but my 14 year daughter has a rather skimply suit she hides under a shirt

[pelsar]

I never expected that any proud Jew, would side with Ophra on any issue. Right now you are being played for a fool by her, and I feel sorry for you.

dont bother feeling sorry for me.....I "side" with ideas that i agee with and dont with ideas that i dont agree with...the person is immaterial.

if stevek has an idea i find realistic and i like..i will defend him on the internet.... i will also defend him "physically" as i will gil, Ophra and any other israeli in israel reguardless of their ideas.

an ideal or idea is not necessary related to a person....and i definitly resent reading the words "jew hater" when it comes to jews disagreeing over politics....resent is probably not strong enough.

[redcake]

Pelsar, I get the feeling your a moderate who has unintentionally stepped into a conversation where your comments are coming off a bit more radical then you realize. Twice now you've told me your Hilltop Youth comments were misunderstood. Perhaps the context of your comments was off? Regardless, why act surprised that you're being pegged for these comments? After all, you then when and tried to sum a few members up yourself didn't you? I've made the same comment about SteveK sounding like a Jews for Jesus at times by the way.... but as a whole, your summation of the members arguments here was a little black and white, and sort of undermines their ability to view our rolls as something other then LEFT RIGHT DIASPORA RELIGIOUS SECULAR. I'm assuming your intentions are different ?

Ophra came on here with some off the wall contradictions (anti-religion +anti-nationalistm, yet somehow declaring herself a proud Israeli Sabra).... she ran off whimpering about how mean this forum was. Now that she's back, she's managed to turn virtually every thread she participates in, into personalized attacks. Everything is reduced to the EVIL DIASPORA, EVIL RELIGIOUS RIGHT. God forbid a leftist religious Jew with dual citizenship could exist in her world.

[pelsar]

Pelsar, I get the feeling your a moderate who has unintentionally stepped into a conversation where your comments are coming off a bit more radical then you realize. Twice now you've told me your Hilltop Youth comments were misunderstood. Perhaps the context of your comments was off? Regardless, why act surprised that you're being pegged for these comments? After all, you then when and tried to sum a few members up yourself didn't you? I've made the same comment about SteveK sounding like a Jews for Jesus at times by the way.... but as a whole, your summation of the members arguments here was a little black and white, and sort of undermines their ability to view our rolls as something other then LEFT RIGHT DIASPORA RELIGIOUS SECULAR. I'm assuming your intentions are different ?


perhaps I should clarify...if i didnt "seperate" the hilltopyouth" from the rest of israel (though i did mention that they are a cult), then I am now

i attempted to "sum up the members"...as I wasnt sure of their opinions...there was a certain "vagness" going on...i figured that would be a way to clear the air. Its easier to write when we have a better idea of who were "talking to"..we usually adjust our language to be better understood and not to say something that might offend for no reason at all.

I dont mind being 'pegged" if i was misunderstood...we dont have any eye contact to help us, body language, so I'm not bothered when we have misunderstandings.

I consider myself very tolerent of others....with a few exceptions:
those that would prefer a dictatorship over israels pseudo democracy (i've a list of improvements if anybody is interested)

blanket generalizations of the "right and left"...with the usual "jew hater" comment thrown in

insulting or degrading the IDF and specifically the men that I have and do serve with

[Mira]

male....but my 14 year daughter has a rather skimply suit she hides under a shirt

But you said when we wear our skimpy suits....So do you wear a skimpy suit too?

[redcake]

Okay Pelsar, that's all dandy, but if someone hates Jewish Jews then the title is apt. It's also a little foolish to list some Israeli members and say you'll defend them because they're Israeli. Lord knows nobody is argueing with such bullish pride when it comes to negotiating with our real enemies. Then it's all compassion, and bending over backwards to understand their viewpoint. Even at the cost of your own life. I don't mind disagreeing either, but there needs to be a sort of acceptance, and unification amongst us if we're to continue surviving. So wouldn't you say it's a bad idea to embrace those amongst us who are divisive, and seek to discredit anyone traditional?

[pelsar]

Lord knows nobody is argueing with such bullish pride when it comes to negotiating with our real enemies. Then it's all compassion, and bending over backwards to understand their viewpoint.

who are you talking to?...because its not me.....

i have spent countless hours on ambushes, in watchtowers, between missions talking to people from different walks of life from me...with different viewpoints, who would be defined by those here as "jew haters'...and you know what?..they arent. some would be defined as right, some left, some pacifist, some militant...and we all get along, because were wise enough to know that we can disagree, disgree strongly and still work together.

without degrading each other or insulting each other.....we call it respect.

[pelsar]

But you said when we wear our skimpy suits....So do you wear a skimpy suit too?
nah i got one those baggy ones....I just "identify" with my fashion oriented little girl

[pelsar]

Why doesn't our nation have enough depth and breadth of perspective after 3,500+ years of unbroken tradition to enable our faith, trust, and awe such that we can bring The Living God of Israel into national prominence, and truly sanctify Him, as the God of our Pesach story, and His Torah,- in the sight of the nations?

because we're a diverse group......even if you had everyone for a minute with the same belief...it would end. People are different, and even when they arent they will be because we also change with time. The govt has to have a wide enough breadth to let many variations of the religion within the country without alienating others. its a tightrope.

my cousin in mea sharim has 10 kids....the first 3 are now in NY...and not as religious. She wont let them come back home for fear that they will "contaminate the rest"...even though she loves them....you cant force a certain way of life on people...it doesnt always fit them...especially the next generation, hence the govt has to take in diversity as a given...and that includes people like me, at best we simply create smaller societies, fight the larger one for our ideal and learn to get along as neighbors. Its really not so terrible....

[Ophra]

Ophra came on here with some off the wall contradictions (anti-religion +anti-nationalistm, yet somehow declaring herself a proud Israeli Sabra).... she ran off whimpering about how mean this forum was. Now that she's back, she's managed to turn virtually every thread she participates in, into personalized attacks. Everything is reduced to the EVIL DIASPORA, EVIL RELIGIOUS RIGHT. God forbid a leftist religious Jew with dual citizenship could exist in her world.

You know something redcake , I have a very good memory and I remember you were one of the first to attack me on here because I defended this forum's right to have a Moslem moderator...... you made some awful remark about us going to the beach on Yom Kippur , not that my family do ... it's too far to walk , but you made the comment never the less . My answer to you was that in Israel the secular had that right ... just as you have the right to spend Yom Kippur doing your thing. I have told you many times that I am not anti-religious as such.... I am against having religion forced upon us.

"" Ophra came on here with some off the wall contradictions (anti-religion +anti-nationalistm, yet somehow declaring herself a proud Israeli Sabra)....""

I am not anti-religion ... I am an atheist ... I don't care about religion, it has no place in my life. I am all for freedom of religion though ... which probably explains me defending andak01's right to be here ;)
As for "anti-nationalistm " ...??... could you please explain that one to me as I do not understand .
How come you see this as "off the wall contradictions" ??.... I am a proud Israeli Sabra .... I have every right to be one ... I love this country and our secular democracy ... I would never choose to live anywhere else.
Every single thing pelsar has said so far I agree with.... if he says something that I don't agree with I will debate the point with him...because he is a secular Israeli I know he will not insult and attack me personally just because we disagree on something .......that's the difference between us and you.

[redcake]

Okay more distortions from Ophra.

Seeing as how united Steve, Gilgamesh and yourself are, it's obviouse a zip code doesn't provide the clarity you claim it does. Try speaking in less generalized condemnations and we might be able to take something you say seriously. So far it's "Ophra's bizaare definition of secular good, other people bad".

[redcake]

One more thing - religion obviously has a HUGE place in your life. Your distaste for it consumes every one of your posts on here.

[Ophra]

Okay more distortions from Ophra.

Seeing as how united Steve, Gilgamesh and yourself are, it's obviouse a zip code doesn't provide the clarity you claim it does. Try speaking in less generalized condemnations and we might be able to take something you say seriously. So far it's "Ophra's bizaare definition of secular good, other people bad".

"" As for "anti-nationalistm " ...??... could you please explain that one to me as I do not understand "'
Kindly answer please.... I have the right to a defense .

Please explain "it's obviouse a zip code doesn't provide the clarity you claim it does. " .... once again I do not understand you.

I prefer secular to religious .... I am perfectly aware that there is good and bad amongst both..... I also have no problems with Muslims redcake or Christian Arabs or Druzeem ... I live and work in perfect harmony with them all . That's Israel .... and that's the way I want to keep it.

[Ophra]

One more thing - religion obviously has a HUGE place in your life. Your distaste for it consumes every one of your posts on here.

No it does not . What consumes me is defending my country and Goverment from the abuse you religious have been putting us through on here ... there is two sides to every story redcake ... I just give the other side .

[redcake]

I prefer secular to religious .... I am perfectly aware that there is good and bad amongst both.....

Goodie. Let your attempt at discourse or schtick or whatever it is reflect that. Imposing your preferences on others is oppressive.

Let's start with the phrase "you religious". It's meaningless. There is no one singular minded "religious". So you're attacking who? Remember when you boasted how the entire Jewish community of Gaza deserved to be evicted, by your own children no less, as collective punishment for Rabin's death?

[Ophra]

Goodie. Let your attempt at discourse or schtick or whatever it is reflect that. Imposing your preferences on others is oppressive.

Let's start with the phrase "you religious". It's meaningless. There is no one singular minded "religious". So you're attacking who? Remember when you boasted how the entire Jewish community of Gaza deserved to be evicted, by your own children no less, as collective punishment for Rabin's death?

You have still not answered the parts that I do not understand and that I asked you to .... kindly do so before I answer anything else.

"" Imposing your preferences on others is oppressive. "" .... I beg you pardon :confused: ... what was your point about beaches on Yom Kippur if not your imposing your preferences on others ????? :)

[Mira]

nah i got one those baggy ones....I just "identify" with my fashion oriented little girlThat's a relief. Very few men have the body type to pull off a speedo. Even then, I'm against it!

[redcake]

You have still not answered the parts that I do not understand and that I asked you to .... kindly do so before I answer anything else.

Consult one of your secular Israelis for help then. I already broke it down in the "MK wouldn't have made aliyah" thread, and it's beyond the scope of this thread (and every other thread) to baby talk you through it.


"" Imposing your preferences on others is oppressive. "" .... I beg you pardon :confused: ... what was your point about beaches on Yom Kippur if not your imposing your preferences on others ????? :)

Regarding beaches on Yom Kippur.... you're out of context, but I believe I was using it as an example of just how secular Israel is. Pelsar made the same point in this thread, and you giggled about just returning from the beach on shabbat, yourself. You're fumbling, as usual.

[Ophra]

Consult one of your secular Israelis for help then. I already broke it down in the "MK wouldn't have made aliyah" thread, and it's beyond the scope of this thread (and every other thread) to baby talk you through it.
Fine. No explanation = end of discussion .


Regarding beaches on Yom Kippur.... you're out of context, but I believe I was using it as an example of just how secular Israel is. Pelsar made the same point in this thread, and you giggled about just returning from the beach on shabbat, yourself. You're fumbling, as usual.
Wrong... you used it as a means to insult, and to show that you were superior to me . Keep pushing it and I will go look for the thread.

I don't giggle ... and there you go making insults again ;) ... and I did not even think about it being shabbat you obsessive fanatic... Saturday is the only damn day we have to go to the beach !!! ..as unlike you Religious we work our butts off the rest of the week .

[Leon]

yea well some of have the guts to "put our money where our mouth is"...others just cant take it....so they either "run away" or just stay away.

but i guess its preferable this way....dariwins process of selection....keeps the israeli stock strong, and the "loosers", the ones who cant take it, the ones who wouldnt know which end of weapon to point with, away from us, the ones who belief is so weak that politicians scare them away.....

we need jews who are tough here, who can fight for their beliefs...both within and without the IDF....we dont have much use for the "other kind"

we agree....your "type" stays away from israel.....

ehtnically cleansing 10% of the population, whilst withdrawing underfire and rewarding terrorism...thats real commendable bravery and courage. That type of action shows that you, as a Jew are truly "fighting for what you believe in."

At the end of the day you certainly put your money were your mouth is...everyone we've got a winner right here.

And pray tell me - what do you call 48-50% of the Israeli population who disagree with the disengagement? Are they cowards? Is their contribution to defending the Land of Israel any less then yours? Are the value of their lives and children's lives any less then yours?

yes, Israel certainly needs more "Jews" of your caliber.

[minusthejihad]

Whatever, all of the sudden, the "Ick, don't call me a Jew" Ophra has suddenly turned into Mother Teresa.

And I don't know why you say I'm lying. Yes, I told you, after you blatantly insulted me as a Russian Jew, that you better watch your mouth, or I'd slap you if you were within reach and said those words to my face. Exactly as you say, "I was taught to defend myself".

On the other hand, here is what happens when you let one of your mentally challenged brilliant sabra marxist children use your private message function (and talk about children in the forefront):

"Go screw your shiska Ruskie .... let your other Ruskie friend know that NOBODY but NOBODY threatens my mother .
We are going to find you both Ruskie and when we do you are both going to wish you had never been born. That is a promise."

[Ophra]

Whatever, all of the sudden, the "Ick, don't call me a Jew" Ophra has suddenly turned into Mother Teresa.

And I don't know why you say I'm lying. Yes, I told you, after you blatantly insulted me as a Russian Jew, that you better watch your mouth, or I'd slap you if you were within reach and said those words to my face. Exactly as you say, "I was taught to defend myself".

On the other hand, here is what happens when you let one of your mentally challenged brilliant sabra marxist children use your private message function (and talk about children in the forefront):

"Go screw your shiska Ruskie .... let your other Ruskie friend know that NOBODY but NOBODY threatens my mother .
We are going to find you both Ruskie and when we do you are both going to wish you had never been born. That is a promise."

You are lying again Minus .

I did not insult you ... the opposite .. you got insulted because I said I was an Israeli before I was a Jew .. that is the God's truth and I am going to re-post the whole thread now. We have hard copies of all your threats and KW's.
You out of the blue posted this :

"" This and your insult about being insulted when called a Jew are uncalled for. If you keep this up, you will be banned, if not, I'll fly to Israel and knock your f'in teeth out, Adam Shapiro.""

Both sides : http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7863&page=1&pp=15

What kind of a country is this :
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7821&page=1&pp=15

Remember Baruch Goldstein :
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7843&page=1&pp=15

My son was fed up with you and KW constantly harassing me and threatning me on here.... I can't help what he sent you in PM's ... it's why I switched them off .

[pelsar]

So wouldn't you say it's a bad idea to embrace those amongst us who are divisive, and seek to discredit anyone traditional?

I'm confused, for one thing I have no idea what your definition of traditonal is..but whatever it is, it would take me about 5 seconds to find a religous jew/rabbi to discredit your version...

will you give me a further explanation of which of the following jewish groups are diversive....I'm giving some lattittude as to the definition of "what is a jew"....since its kind of hard to define and this is not all inclusive...just some general cultural groups...with some generalizations...

secular israelis born to jewish parents
secular americans/others born to jewish parents.
american/others style jewish orthodox
reform jews serving in commando units
conservative jews serving in the IDF in jenin
israeli style orthodox (small kippa)
Israeli style religious right who refuse to serve in the IDF
israeli style religious left
israeli messanic right religious
israeli messianic right non religious
israeli right non religious security oriented
lsraeli jews for jesus passive
israeli jews for jesus religious right
israeli jews for jesus religious left
israeli jews anarchist who serve
israeli jews "roadblock watch
israeli jews women in green
israeli jews women in black
israeli spheradi religious (shas) who dont serve
israeli spharadi traditional
israeli haredim right ..dont stand at attention during memorial service
israeli hardem right....go in the IDF (minority)
israeli hardeim dont recognize israeli
american haridem dont recognize israel
american haridem right oriented
israeli kibbutzniks who are non religious and right and serve in commando units
israeli kibbutnzikim who are religious and left
lsraeli kibbutznikim who are non religious and left and serve in commando units
.....

feel free to add additonal cultural groups that you feel may or may not be "diversive" and you can add a star for those subcultural groups that you feel are "self hating jews".

my israel?..includes all of the above + those that arent jewish as well, because that is what israel is made up of today...and the heritage of the jewish people have always included its own diversity.....its the jewish bigots that will go through that list and "cross off certain groups as not being "worthy" of being jewish...and it is they who are being "diversive"

[pelsar]

And pray tell me - what do you call 48-50% of the Israeli population who disagree with the disengagement? Are they cowards? Is their contribution to defending the Land of Israel any less then yours? Are the value of their lives and children's lives any less then yours?.

since your talking about my friends/family/fellow soldiers..and others who live in israel...the answer is no....their contribution is every bit as valuable as mine....and their children whom I defend with their fathers are everybit as important as mine...which is why we serve together.....fight together....and accept the law as layed down by our government..whether we agree with it or not.....

some of the bravest soldiers i've met.....are lefties...and righties....and conservatives and athiests...and jews for jesus....and none were or are cowards.....you dont get it....we all believe in our country and all are willing to fight for our beliefs and still respect each other and our beliefs.....

but then again....its the kind of thing some learn only by going through combat training.....laying together in ambushes keeping each other awake while freezing in cold wet clothing...or spending 24hrs together in a post meters from or on the other side of the 'line"...i could go one..but over 19years of serving with israelis of all types, it keeps ones minds open to many of the actual variations in the beliefs that israelis hold....but you have to "be here" to get it.

[Ophra]

I hear you pelsar.... I hear you ..but..don't expect anybody else to ;) We who are neither Left or Right are rarely loved by anyone .

BTW want to bet that it was those same sweet settler youth that were behind this today ?????........

Reckless Act/Pullout foes torch gas depot

Disaster narrowly averted in Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout objectors torch gas depot near residential building, write anti-Sharon slogans nearby. Quick action by firefighters prevents giant explosion
By Eli Senyor

A disaster was narrowly averted in the town of Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, after pullout foes torched a gas depot near a residential building. The pullout objectors also wrote slogans against Prime Minister Sharon, calling for his murder, and vowed the act was only the beginning.

Fire fighters managed to put out the fire and prevented what would have been a huge explosion. Police officials are treating the incident with severity and have set up a special team to investigate the crime.

The police characterized the incident as a "miracle," and said forces were stunned to discover someone poured a flammable substance on the underground gas depot's faucet. The depot contains a huge amount of gas for the benefit of area residents.

Police vow to catch 'madman'

Rehovot Fire Department Commander Shimon Gamliel told Ynet luck played a part in averting the disaster. He said a call came in around 3 a.m. regarding a small fire, but once firefighters arrived at the scene they realized the severity of the incident.

"The fire began spreading, along with a gas leak that resulted from the open valves," he said. ""Fortunately, it was an underground gas depot, with only its valves being above the ground."

"If this was a ground-level gas depot, it would have likely exploded and caused a disaster," he said. "Another thing working in our favor was the greenery around the depot, which slowed down the fire."

Police estimate the incident marked an attempt to exact a human toll, police commander Yifrach Duvdevani said following the incident.

"We'll invest plenty of effort to catch the madman who carried out the incident, which in our view is akin to an attempt to stage a terror attack," he said. "We mustn't forget that a residential building is located 30 meters (about 100 feet) away from the gas depot."

After the fire was extinguished, firefighters found rags drenched in a flammable substance attached to the open gas valves and sent them for lab tests, Gamliel said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130102,00.html

To those who find a way to rationalize the violence and excuse it I say that the tiger you are trying to ride has let out a roar.

Might not have been settler youth .... was " two suspects, known as far right activists " .....

Teens suspected in gas depot torching

Two youngsters detained on suspicion of blowing up building in Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, to protest pullout. Authorities recover weapons, incitement material during search of their homes
By Eli Senyor

Two teenagers have been detained early Sunday on suspicion of attempting to torch a gas depot in Rehovot, south of Tel Aviv, over the weekend. The two youngsters, aged 17 and 19, apparently planned to blow up a nearby residential building to protest the pullout plan.

Authorities searched the homes of the two suspects where they found weapons and incitement material. The two will be brought before a judge at the Rishon Lezion Magistrate's court Sunday morning.

On Friday, firefighters called to the scene of a fire were stunned to discover someone tried to torch a large underground gas depot. Later, authorities found rags drenched in flammable materials attached to the gas depot's valves.

At the time, police officials said a gas explosion would have led to a disaster and added two nearby residential buildings may have collapsed as a result of the blast. As a result, police treated the incident as an attempted terror attack and set up a special investigation team to catch the suspects.

On Saturday, police forces arrived at the homes of the two suspects, known as far right activists, following an intelligence tip. The two also have a long record of disruptions in the framework of anti-pullout protests.
(08.21.05, 08:56)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130779,00.html

[Gilgamesh]

Whatever, all of the sudden, the "Ick, don't call me a Jew" Ophra has suddenly turned into Mother Teresa.

And I don't know why you say I'm lying. Yes, I told you, after you blatantly insulted me as a Russian Jew, that you better watch your mouth, or I'd slap you if you were within reach and said those words to my face. Exactly as you say, "I was taught to defend myself".

On the other hand, here is what happens when you let one of your mentally challenged brilliant sabra marxist children use your private message function (and talk about children in the forefront):

"Go screw your shiska Ruskie .... let your other Ruskie friend know that NOBODY but NOBODY threatens my mother .
We are going to find you both Ruskie and when we do you are both going to wish you had never been born. That is a promise."

<edited by moderator>

[Ophra]

<edited by moderator>

How Jabotinsky'ish of you Gil :).... nothing like good old freedom of speech, huh ? :rolleyes:

( PS .... your spelling is embarrassing me :D )

( PPS ... Minus made the original first threat.... he also started PM'ing me ...I did not want his PM's ... that is harassment .. he continued to harass me ...thus my son told him off .... what would you have done ? Burst into tears maybe ? )

[redcake]

I'm confused, for one thing I have no idea what your definition of traditonal is......

my israel?..includes all of the above + those that arent jewish as well, because that is what israel is made up of today...and the heritage of the jewish people have always included its own diversity.....its the jewish bigots that will go through that list and "cross off certain groups as not being "worthy" of being jewish...and it is they who are being "diversive"

Firstly, I said Divisive, and then you quoted me as using what I think is a made up word or spelling error : "diversive".

You really are confused, because we're both in agreement. That is why I'm calling you out for seemingly sympathisizing with someone like Ophra who does exactly that, crosses off certain groups, as not being worthy of being Israeli! She thinks I'm a religious fanatic because I defend ones right to practice whatever version of religion they might have, and to be political about that right if needed. I'm an American Jew with Israeli citizenship who was raised Conservative, and attends an Orthodox synagogue on occassion. I didn't even intentionally observe Shabbat this weekend, and I live a fairly secular lifestyle give or take a Mezzuza on the door, and an aversion to Pork. Although I have a weakness for Italian Salami. Ophra considers me the religious right, and addresses me as "you religious". She see's no difference between myself and someone like SteveK.

Your Israel should include all of the above, because Israel does incude all of the above.... it only becomes an issue when you discriminate against certain groups or infringe your personal beliefs and preferences on their lifestyle. It's something I've said here often. I think we can agree on that, right?

[redcake]

Fine. No explanation = end of discussion .

It's pretty clear, you're way more about being a disruption then taking part in discussion. Otherwise, you wouldn't feel the need to spread one conversation out over several threads. What's also clear is that you're anti-Jewish, anti-religion, anti-zionism, anti-diaspora, anti-borders, and anti pretty much every element of what makes Israel,and the Jewish people a nation. Your bit of Israeli pride is pretty vapid in light of all that, don'tcha think?

[Ophra]

It's pretty clear, you're way more about being a disruption then taking part in discussion. Otherwise, you wouldn't feel the need to spread one conversation out over several threads. What's also clear is that you're anti-Jewish, anti-religion, anti-zionism, anti-diaspora, anti-borders, and anti pretty much every element of what makes Israel,and the Jewish people a nation. Your bit of Israeli pride is pretty vapid in light of all that, don'tcha think?

No I do not ... and I am not going to argue with you anymore.

It's enough for me that I have lived here for 55 years without ever leaving....that I served 6 years in the IDF... that my husband, two sons and a daughter are now serving in the IDF . That I fully and completely support my elected Government and our security forces. That I have never once broken our Laws.... and that I am disgusted by those that do.

[sharonbn]

OK, This thread has ran its course.
If you wish to further discuss the Gaza pullout, you are welcome to open a new thread.