the word bombers

[Danisl]

I have a small problem with the word bombers
you know bombers is a convensional way of attack on someone
the "suicide bombers" as alot of people that dont live in israel
call them are actually plain murders they kill inoccent people and it dosent matter even if its for a justfull couse and also the murders arent crazy at all but they are simply poor brainwashed
people who are never the brain part in an attack

[L@mplighterM]

I’m going to go easy here because you seem to have difficult time making yourself understood.

If and only if I understand your post it’s garbage.


You write even if it’s for a just full cause. What could be just full in murdering innocent humans?

You write that they are simply poor brainwashed individuals. What specifically do you mean by that?

[Danisl]

im sorry if my english is wierd im not an expert in the english language but believe me i am just as hurt as you are from the attacks i scertenly dont justify it but the arabs that go kill them self are being brain washed they know nothing it will be more important to hurt the ones that send the suiciders then too hurt the killers them (is there any way i could check my spelling automatcly here this is my first tread)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Danisl
im sorry if my english is wierd im not an expert in the english language but believe me i am just as hurt as you are from the attacks i scertenly dont justify it but the arabs that go kill them self are being brain washed they know nothing it will be more important to hurt the ones that send the suiciders then too hurt the killers them (is there any way i could check my spelling automatcly here this is my first tread)

Those bastards are Islamic Fundamentalists baby killers and much more. I would classify them as being beyond sociopath or psychopath.

[christian]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2036000/2036879.stm

which is home to about 25,000 Jews - the largest Jewish community in the region outside Israel.



Questions

IF Iran persecute jews so much. How come there is 25,000 jews in Iran?

Why israel don't receive these jewish people?


Ps: I don't like Iran either. I am curious.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Danisl
I have a small problem with the word bombers
you know bombers is a convensional way of attack on someone
the "suicide bombers" as alot of people that dont live in israel
call them are actually plain murders they kill inoccent people and it dosent matter even if its for a justfull couse and also the murders arent crazy at all but they are simply poor brainwashed
people who are never the brain part in an attack You are right, much of the attention and discussion on Palestinian terrorism gets redirected the wrong way. There is too little information - and analysis - on the organisational part and the methods emloyed in recruiting (coercing?) the attackers, on the "middle management", so to say.


im sorry if my english is wierd im not an expert in the english language but believe me i am just as hurt as you are from the attacks No need to apologize, you are the one in the midst of it.

May I suggest that you use punctuation signs (full stops, colons etc.)? ;) A useful trick for making oneself understood in a foreign language.
i scertenly dont justify it but the arabs that go kill them self are being brain washed they know nothing it will be more important to hurt the ones that send the suiciders then too hurt the killers them
Exactly.

[cerulean]

DanisL, I understood you fine. I agree the term "bomber" is not the best term for a suicide murderer (thanks again to Elke for that term). I'm sorry you have to deal with the situation on a daily basis.


Originally posted by Vic
You are right, much of the attention and discussion on Palestinian terrorism gets redirected the wrong way. There is too little information - and analysis - on the organisational part and the methods emloyed in recruiting (coercing?) the attackers, on the "middle management", so to say.


Any tips for analyzing the organizational part?

The one thing that seems highly suspect to me is that the organizations are choosing the "best and the brightest" for these bombings, as they sometimes claim. Arafat made a famous statement in the 1980s that women should have twelve children, ten for the "struggle" and two for their own enjoyment. I think a high birthrate is encouraged and with this a disposable attitude towards children.

I'm suspicious of any Palestinian interviews or postings about suicide attackers, because they have an obvious motive to shade the truth, to say the least. I'm also a little hesitant to post these two articles because they might serve the purpose of giving the suicide murderers too much attention, but in case anyone finds them helpful:


========
"In Israeli Hospital, Bomber Tells of Trying to Kill Israelis"

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/08/international/middleeast/08BOMB.html?pagewanted=print&position=bottom

This is about the guy who managed to only partially detonate his device a month or so ago. Of course he is being well-treated during his stay in an Israeli hospital, being taken care of by the same people he would like to execute.

According to the article, he was an unemployed 5th-grade dropout who spent his time at pool halls. He became fervently religious and decided to become a suicide bomber.
========

"In Growing Numbers, Palestinian Boys Are Choosing the Brief Life of a 'Martyr'"

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-000040762jun10.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dworld%2 Dmanual

Here are a few quotes:
"Maybe when we are old enough we can do these things, like when we are 20," said Riad Muhemar, 14. "Now we should be educating ourselves."
...
Um Nidal Farahat, a Gazan mother of four, has a very different attitude. She says she encouraged her sons, from a young age, to attack Israeli targets and become martyrs.

One son, Mohammed, 17, was killed in March when he attacked Atzmona, a Jewish settlement in the southern Gaza Strip, and killed five youths there. Mohammed had been active with Hamas' military wing since he was 7, Um Nidal told the Saudi newspaper Asharq al Awsat last month.

"In this atmosphere, Mohammed came to love martyrdom," she said. "As a mother, I re-enforced this love for martyrdom in the mind of Mohammed and of all my sons."

She said she discussed the Atzmona operation with Mohammed before he embarked on it and posed with him for keepsake photos.
...
======

[Blue Moon]

re: Christian, post #5

Re: your question as to why Israel does not
assimilate the 25,000 Jews being oppressed in
Isreal - - I would like to know if your question is sincere or rhetorical ?

And you folks in Isreal,what would/could Isreal do to assist the Jews in Iran ???

:confused: American

[elke]

Christian,

Persia, a/k/a Iran, has a long, distinguished history as a safe haven for the Jews. After the Babylonian exile and destruction of the 1st Temple, it was the Persians that allowed many Jews to return to Israel and even paid to re-build the Temple.

I don't have time to look this up right now, but one of its leaders during the Middle Ages stated that he couldn't figure out the stupidity of the Europeans in expelling all these capable tradesmen, artisans, scientists, and generally good citizens. This view seems to have persisted in the populace even after the Islamic Revolution. Many Iranians have nothing whatever against their Jewish population. Since contrary to the garbage propaganda, Zionists DO NOT force Jews to come to Israel, those who feel themselves safe do not make Aliya (move to Israel to live).

Moreover, 25,000 figure is nothing compared to the Jewish population before the establishment of Israel. Again, I have to go to work soon, so I can't look this up now, but many have indeed left Iran. However, since Iran did not officially expel them, and it's the anti-semitism of the general population that normally makes a place unlivable, many chose to stay.

It is worthwhile, IMHO, however, to look at the situation for Iran's current Jewish population, to make sure of their safety.

[cerulean]

Here is an article that may describe a more accurate account of how suicide bombers get the job. According to the article, Sharon said that Israel had rescued a boy who had been kidnapped by Hamas to serve as a suicide bomber.

http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716458789

[Thought]

The bold text is posted by christian:


IF Iran persecute jews so much. How come there is 25,000 jews in Iran?

I fail to see what this figure has to do with anything. Germany had 500,000 before WWII.

Also, the following explains the true conditions for Jews living in Iran (source: http://www.wjc.org.il/communities/jewish_communities_of_the_world/middle_east_and_northern_africa/iran.html ):

"The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with "imperialistic America"-both such activities being punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The Jews again live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions imposed on religious minorities."

[cerulean]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,735785,00.html

The article repeats the idea that Hamas turns down suicide bombers who are "losers," which does not seem to always be the case, from what I can see. However, it also brings up several interesting points and does describe some of the organizational aspects. Terrorist cells see suicide bombers almost as a unit of currency. They can be traded between cells for other desirable items.

[Danisl]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,735785,00.html

The article repeats the idea that Hamas turns down suicide bombers who are "losers," which does not seem to always be the case, from what I can see. However, it also brings up several interesting points and does describe some of the organizational aspects. Terrorist cells see suicide bombers almost as a unit of currency. They can be traded between cells for other desirable items.

and this pruves my point, all thos suiciders become great heros only after they have killed someone, before that they were nothing! the hamas trains them in to murderers but the trainers are the ones who should be captured.

[Mediocrates]

yessssss- destroy the INFRASTRUCTURE. Just because they don't wear uniforms doesn't mean they don't have:

command
control
communication
logistics
recruiting
materiel
training
weapons
transportation
money
other support.

Everyone wants to talk about terrorism like its some vaporous thing w/o any cross connects. It's not, it's a top down pyramid like any other command structure. The bottom of the pyramid is all the foot soldiers and kids who go out and murder for Uncle Yasser. He's at the top and it's not politically useful to get rid of him. But the middle officer corps - the hands and eyes who do things in the field with instruction from the PLO central committee - those are the targets. They are neither the darlings of the media nor are they the delusional children fed to slaughter. They make up the professional corp of serious soldiers. They need to be eliminated with utterly ruthless singlemindedness. Their expertise can't be easily replicated so it doesn't matter in the end how mad the 'street' becomes since they can't effect any action on it without that missing middle corps.

[Danisl]

the problem is not to find the killers
but to kill them without the world saying anything
any move israel does, shock the world and so its imposible for
israel to do anything to protect it self!

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
Any tips for analyzing the organizational part?
Very banal: acquiring knowledge. I mean real knowledge, which includes cultural literacy. The best parallel I can think of are pre-9/11 assesments of the danger emanating from Afghanistan. Of all the people exploring the issue voicing their opinion on it in the Western printed media, there were, it seems, only two who fully realized what was going on, Reuel Marc Gerecht and Julie Sirrs. (I can give you the links, if you are interested). What they had in common and what put them apart from most of the others dabbling in the issue are their strong academic backgrounds and the fact that they actually did take time to study the situation, talk to the people "on the ground", which they were capable of doing without translators, etc.

For all of us who will never earn a degree in Islamic studies, learn Arabic and study Palestinians in different parts of the world at close quarters, there may be another approach that could make sense.

It sounds frivolous, but maybe those of us far away from the actual scene (geographically and/or culturally) should try to think about it - as an experiment - the same way as one would approach writing a novel or a film scenario? To imagine the act, the physical details, the conversations etc. step by step.

What gets reported is mostly rather incogruent stuff. The only credible-sounding article was published in the New Yorker ("An arsenal of believers"), but things could have changed since the author's explorations in Gaza.

Let's give it a try, fill the gaps in the reporting. So there is a young girl who "blew herself up", the story goes. There is an uncle who is delighted over what she did, a mother who isn't, a fiancé making political statements, a crowd celebrating the local hero, and an official spokesman for Arafat looking sad-eyed in the camera and denouncing the "occupation", which forces in some mysterious metaphysical way this very act and no other. OK, let's look what happened.
Chapter 1: The girl decides to "become a martyr". How does she know where to go to fulfil her wish? (Is it common knowledge in her surroundings? Is the Israeli intelligence so poor that they don't get it?) To the local Fatah office, it was reported on occassion. Can she go to anyone or is she directed towards a particular person? (Maybe it was the other way round, with someone performing active screening for suitable recruits and approaching them directly or indirectly). Anyway she finds her way into the office.
Chapter 2: How is she greeted? Does she know the others? Maybe they are relatives of hers. No, they don't tell her to go home, continue her education and marry a nice man, this we know for sure. They probaly check her motivation, evaluate her physical and mental condition (the act does take good nerves). How do such conversations run? Who are the people who decide whom to accept as a potential attacker? How many take part in such decisions? What are their individual roles and responsibilities?
Chapter 3: So they have decided to take her. (How do they inform her of it?) She has to be fitted with a "belt", which probably means taking exact body measurements. Who does it? Then there was the fashion for making videos. Someone puts up the proper settings, background, lighting etc., another one writes the text for her or discusses the one she has written herself in advance, she is probably advised on clothes, position etc. for the filming. Then there is some kind of waiting phase. Does she recieve any kind of psychological support in this time? How does it happen? Is she meeting covertly with her "mentors" (Are they men or maybe they take women too for the task? It would make sense.)?
Chapter 4: A decision is made on an attack. Who decides where and when the attack should take place, based on what information (who provides it?)? How many levels of decision-making are involved, down to what detail? Do they keep a sort of files on would-be attackers, does someone telephone around the local Fatah offices asking what kind of recruits (as well as weapons, explosives etc.) they have at their disposal? There is obviously some kind of top-level political component (attacks to "celebrate" anniversaries, to "greet" peace-making politicians, mostly Americans etc. - maybe the latter should be banned from entering the country for some time, just in order to save lives?) How are the actual commands given out and passed along? Just a nod and a wink, and the "executives" know what they have to do?
Chapter 5, contemplative: What is going on in the heads of all involved? Despair, OK, maybe, but then a kind of perverse vanity too, the feeling of catapulting oneself from a insignificant existence to what is commonly percieved as the center of world politics? The desire to please the boss, for the lower- and mid-level organizers?

I'd rather stop here so as not to get banned from the forum for spamming ;), but it shouldn't be too difficult to continue.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Danisl
the problem is not to find the killers
but to kill them without the world saying anything
any move israel does, shock the world and so its imposible for
israel to do anything to protect it self!
What I don't really get is why does Israel care so much about "the world"? What would "the world" do were Israel to strike harder? My guess is: nothing. Scream around a bit, then calm down.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic

it seems, only two who fully realized what was going on, Reuel Marc Gerecht and Julie Sirrs. (I can give you the links, if you are interested).

Are you kidding? :D Yes, please.

Great post by the way, about thinking through the scenario.

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
Are you kidding? :D Yes, please.
http://www.meforum.org/article/88/
http://www.meforum.org/meq/taliban0103.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/08/opinion/08GERE.html

Note the publication dates.


Great post by the way, about thinking through the scenario. *takes a deep bow*
Feel free to correct/continue

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic

*takes a deep bow*
Feel free to correct/continue

...*Silence*... :D Just kidding - great post!

[Danisl]

Originally posted by Vic

What I don't really get is why does Israel care so much about "the world"? What would "the world" do were Israel to strike harder? My guess is: nothing. Scream around a bit, then calm down.

scream around abit?

israel imports alot of products from europe,(the us wont close its door to israel)
the situation of the economy in israel is bad enough .the usa help israel alot we cant afford to loose there support

[Vic]

Originally posted by Danisl
scream around abit?
Exactly.

israel imports alot of products from europe,(the us wont close its door to israel)
Which means that Europe gains more from trading with Israel than the other way round. Afaik most of the Israeli imports are non-vital consumer goods the European businesses are quite happy to sell. And, as I've written somewhere before, the discussion on the trade embargo somewhere about late april this year came to a full stop after a couple of politicians had the sudden insight that trade sanctions are absolutely the only thing the EU can pressure Israel with. Impose them, and Israel need never again give a damn about the EU, so better swing them around as a threat

the situation of the economy in israel is bad enough .the usa help israel alot we cant afford to loose there support Would you? There is a discussion of the US Israel policy in another thread http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=854&goto=newpost . Doesn't look to me as if there could be any danger from that side, what they call "Mideast policy" changes about three times a day and the way it looks no one will act in the near future. Judging by what I am learning now Israel is enjoying an almost total freedom of action right now.

[Vic]

Danisl, Mediocrates -

Originally posted by Mediocrates
yessssss- destroy the INFRASTRUCTURE. Just because they don't wear uniforms doesn't mean they don't have:

command
control
communication
logistics
recruiting
materiel
training
weapons
transportation
money
other support.

Everyone wants to talk about terrorism like its some vaporous thing w/o any cross connects. It's not, it's a top down pyramid like any other command structure. The bottom of the pyramid is all the foot soldiers and kids who go out and murder for Uncle Yasser. He's at the top and it's not politically useful to get rid of him. But the middle officer corps - the hands and eyes who do things in the field with instruction from the PLO central committee - those are the targets. They are neither the darlings of the media nor are they the delusional children fed to slaughter. They make up the professional corp of serious soldiers. They need to be eliminated with utterly ruthless singlemindedness. Their expertise can't be easily replicated so it doesn't matter in the end how mad the 'street' becomes since they can't effect any action on it without that missing middle corps.

Originally posted by Danisl
all thos suiciders become great heros only after they have killed someone, before that they were nothing! the hamas trains them in to murderers but the trainers are the ones who should be captured.

- any suggestions on putting this into practice?

[Mediocrates]

A program that eliminates the middle command personnel: by arrest or by assassination. And by arrest I wouldn't hurry to hold a trial either.

[dmurphy]

Militarily, Israel is capable of taking and controling any land that it wants to. They have proven this time and time again. It is unacceptable for the Palestinians to continue to negotiate in bad faith and then play to the media about what a terrible predicament its people are in. Killing Israel's civilians is also unacceptable.

Israel should stop trying to please the media. They should issue the following statement and then procede to carry out a policy that would put the Palestinian's problems squarely on their own shoulders where they belong...

For every citizen of Israel who is killed by a militant/terrorist Palestinian, we will take and hold 10 acres of land that is currently held by the Palestinians. This land will be developed and inhabited by Israeli military and civilian people and considered Israeli territory forever. If the attacks continue, we reserve the right to make the penalties more severe in the future.
"Land for Peace" is a gesture that we can no longer hope to use as an incentive for acheiving our goals of peace with our neighbors. If our neighbors continue to violate civilized behavior norms, we will expand our territories at their expense in a measured and pre-established rate.

The Palestinians will not be able to do anything about this. Their leadership has refused to play by any sort of acceptable rules, and Israel needs to dictate the terms of conduct to them.

[cerulean]

Quote from Vic:

Chapter 3: So they have decided to take her. (How do they inform her of it?) She has to be fitted with a "belt", which probably means taking exact body measurements. Who does it?

Today, in JPost:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1025787763506
Jul. 11, 2002
Female suspect confesses to involvement in suicide bombing
...
Itim news service reports that Buchari claims she was brought into Beitunya specifically so that she could strap the explosives onto the female bomber, who refused to allow a man to place the explosives on her.

[Vic]

Thanks, Cerulean!

It will take the media some twenty years to fill the gaps anyone can notice within one hour :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by christian
[B]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2036000/2036879.stm

which is home to about 25,000 Jews - the largest Jewish community in the region outside Israel.



Quite true ... :mad: Their place should be in Israel, among their Jewish brotherens.



Questions

IF Iran persecute jews so much. How come there is 25,000 jews in Iran?


Its one of the most anciant Jewish communities outside Israel. Untill 1979, they lived in a relative comfort and security. Many escaped Iran to Israel and the USA during the Islamist revolution. Others, got trapped inside, unable to join their Jewish bretherens in Israel.



Why israel don't receive these jewish people?


There used to be many thousands more who are now living safly in Israel. But, others cannot escape Iran. The Mossad sumaggles them out, secretly, one by one, family by family. (Infact, that is the Mossad original goal, allow the escap of fellow Jews from the grip of tyrantical ragimes). However, its a slow and most dangerus process dew to the murderus nature of the ragime.

[QUOTE]

Did you know?
* Lt. Gen. Shaul Mophaz (ret.) was born in Teheran (Iran). He is the former chief of staff of the IDF.

* Israel's Minister of Security (Defense), Gen. Benyamin Ben Eli-Ezer (ret.) , is an Iraqi born (either Batzra or Baggdad, can't recall exactly).

[Vic]

The gaps I referred to ( http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=11531#post11531 ) are being filled up. Slowly, but it happens:
[...]

“Ahmad El-Mugrabi from the Tanzim enlisted my brother,” said Haled. “El-Mugrabi has a brother, Ali, who studied at the same school as our brother. He filled his head. That’s how he enlisted the girl who committed suicide in Kiryat Yovel (the supermarket in Jerusalem), as well.

“At the beginning of the Intifada our father called us, the three boys, for a talk. You’re not part of this story, he said”.

“I was closest to Issa”, says Haleed (Haled’s brother). “He used to tell me everything. He even told me that he had begun to smoke, a big secret at his age. But he didn’t tell me about the enlistment.

"On the day of the terrorist attack he threw a party at a friend’s house. With music. Then he told Mom, I’m going to play football. At 11 that night we started to look for him. Three days later I turn on the television, here, at work and I see a photo of my brother and message of the Al-Aqsa Brigades. My brother had suddenly become a Shaheed.

“He’s not a human being, this El-Mugrabi. Why did he send my brother to commit suicide and not his own? If I had seen him in the street I would have done something bad to him. The brothers of the girl from Kiryat Yovel looked for him for a long time. They wanted to kill him”.

[...]More on: http://imshin.blogspot.com/2002_08_25_imshin_archive.html#80961193

Isn't it time that someone raises the issue of protecting Palestinians from their own rulers, rather than screech about their presumed "self-defence"?