The Belgians As The World's Judge [Archive]

takeo

01-06-2002, 08:03 PM

Ok, this might be war-crimes committed by the northern alliance, but in those cities there was no US-supervisor who controlled those cities, the us only had airspace-controll. the Us didn't send in the Northern alliance to cities which they had in controll before, there were no us-troops in this cities which could stop the killings. So in this case the US can (legally) not be held responsible for this (morally maibe yes because they knew northern alliance are thugs too).

"The truth is that there is always a double standard when it comes to judging Israel. It is plain and simple the result of vicious anti-semitism and Arab oil blackmail and payoffs to European officials. "

that's nonsense, israel often get a better treatment than other countries. It wasn't treated like yougoslavia or Iraq, even if the crimes against humanity and against international laws were more serious.

"Nonetheless, Sharon was in no way responsible for Arab brutality against each other and as soon as he learned of the Arab vs. Arab revenge killings, he sent in israeli troops to defend the Palestinians. "

Yes he was, he send in troops 24 hours after he knew the massacre was going on. That's more than enough time to finish the business for those thugs. And he was the commander of Beirout at that time, the libanese militiamen were under his supervision and controll, he ordered them to go in the camps.

"Belgium should stick to what it knows best which is making bon-bons and ice-cream. It is not the world's judge and jury. It is just a poor little sub-French country with sky-high unemployment and enough problems that it would be wise to solve its own problems before trying to taking on the entire world's troubles."

I live close to the Belgian border and can assure you there is less unemployment in Belgium than in Israel (or even France). It is not the world's judge, but israel isn't the world's judge too but it persecuted nazi-officials as well (and good that they did it). somene has to do it if the UN fails because of a US-veto.

Elena

04-02-2002, 10:01 AM

I don´t know if Sharon is a criminal of war, (in Spain a lot of people including journalists that in 1982 was in Líbano says that Sharon knew the situation and did´t want stop the massacre).
There is a lot of criminals and dictadors around the world like Pinochet, Castro, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Ben Laden and others...
It would be important create an international justice court to arrested this criminals and give a serious advice that the impunity doesn´t exist to the crimes against the human rights. If this court will be accepted by all the countries, the courts like this begium won´t exist.
There is a problem USA, don´t accept any international institution that they don´t control and can judge americans citizents of soldiers.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 08:22 PM

Are the Spanish Journalists and a lot of Spaniards mind readers? Gee you must have smart people living in Spain.

NewsGuy

04-02-2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Elena
It would be important create an international justice court to arrested this criminals and give a serious advice that the impunity doesn´t exist to the crimes against the human rights. If this court will be accepted by all the countries, the courts like this begium won´t exist.
Unfortunately, institutions that are biased like in Belgium do exist, like the UN security council, for example.

On the other hand, if there existed a World court with real moral authority, it would have to put every Arab dictator on trial for crimes against their own people and crimes against humanity.

But that will not happen, of course, so long as the world expects to get its oil supply, uninterrupted.

Belgium

08-11-2003, 07:27 AM

Belgium should stick to what it knows best which is making bon-bons and ice-cream. It is not the world's judge and jury. It is just a poor little sub-French country with sky-high unemployment and enough problems that it would be wise to solve its own problems before trying to taking on the entire world's troubles.
Belgium is not sub-French, maybe you know that Belgium is a federal state with two communities: Vlaanderen (where people speak Dutch) and Wallonië (the part where French is the language). We are not really poor...the gap in our economy is smaller than in the US, there is less unemployement than in the US. Our states aren't going bankrupt, I heard that some of the US states are bankrupt. So, who are you to talk?

MichaelC

08-11-2003, 10:09 AM

Mil

08-11-2003, 11:08 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Belgium is not sub-French, maybe you know that Belgium is a federal state with two communities: Vlaanderen (where people speak Dutch) and Wallonië (the part where French is the language).

Yes - there of course is multiculturalism at work.

We are not really poor...the gap in our economy is smaller than in the US,

What are you talking about? which gap? Are you comparing your economy to that of the US? Grow up!!!!

there is less unemployement than in the US.

I doubt you even know what you are talking about!!!! You people really make me laugh in your understanding of not just simple economics but of having any basic knowledge of mathematics.

Our states aren't going bankrupt, I heard that some of the US states are bankrupt.

The deficit of some of our states are equal to the overall GDP of you of your country and we are still fine. Listen don't talk about things you don't even understand. Don't embarass yourself like this anymore.

So, who are you to talk?

We are the US have been solving European problems since the first war. When will this stop? And what do we get in return - idiocy. Apparently no lessons were ever learned. Whom do you have living in Europe - bunch of morons?

Lowell

08-11-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Belgium is not sub-French, maybe you know that Belgium is a federal state with two communities: Vlaanderen (where people speak Dutch) and Wallonië (the part where French is the language). We are not really poor...the gap in our economy is smaller than in the US, there is less unemployement than in the US. Our states aren't going bankrupt, I heard that some of the US states are bankrupt. So, who are you to talk?

I know the distinction, for one. And this may be from an old post but it remains pertinent- many US states have indeed encountered severe budget problems, and many have raised taxes to an onerous level in an attempt to reduce their record deficits. Let's keep in mind, people, that a discussion of Belgium the nation ought not to be turned into an attack on Belgium the member. Consider, Mil, that if the US had truly solved Europe's problems then Europe would now be more American than European. As far as I'm concerned, and despite the aggravation Europe on occasion gives the US, I still say- 'Vive la difference'! :)

Mil

08-11-2003, 11:55 AM

Posted by Lowell:

Consider, Mil, that if the US had truly solved Europe's problems then Europe would now be more American than European.

You kidding me? Read some European history of the 20th century. It's very entertaining...

As far as I'm concerned, and despite the aggravation Europe on occasion gives the US, I still say- 'Vive la difference'!

And I say - "Please don't give advise when there is nothing to say." Europe should bud out of world politics and stick to solving its own problems. I heard Euro has some problems, the unemployement is huge - there is something to work on. As Yugoslavia has shown Europe cannot even resolve its own conflicts without 100% US involvement.... Europeans are incompetent, commitless, poor and un-imaginative when it comes to resolving world issues. That's a fact which led the continent into two World Wars.... Srew them giving US advises.

Lowell

08-11-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Lowell:

Consider, Mil, that if the US had truly solved Europe's problems then Europe would now be more American than European.

You kidding me? Read some European history of the 20th century. It's very entertaining...

As far as I'm concerned, and despite the aggravation Europe on occasion gives the US, I still say- 'Vive la difference'!

And I say - "Please don't give advise when there is nothing to say." Europe should bud out of world politics and stick to solving its own problems. I heard Euro has some problems, the unemployement is huge - there is something to work on. As Yugoslavia has shown Europe cannot even resolve its own conflicts without 100% US involvement.... Europeans are incompetent, commitless, poor and un-imaginative when it comes to resolving world issues. That's a fact which led the continent into two World Wars.... Srew them giving US advises.

I wasn't giving advice, I said as far as I'm concerened. I don't think one can equate American conquest and liberation of Europe twice in the last century with solving Europe's problems- if all it took was American conquest then Iraq would now be problem free. About all we did in freeing Europe from tyrannies, especially Nazism, was give Europeans the opportunity to solve their own problems, and prevent the tyrannies from attacking the US. As for Yugoslavia one reason for that was the Muslim proclivity to want an Islamic homeland everywhere in the world they go...

Mil

08-11-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Lowell

I wasn't giving advice, I said as far as I am concerened. I don't think one can equate American conquest

American conquest? America hasn't concurred anything in Europe!!!! Unless you know some other history I am unaware of?

and liberation of Europe twice in the last century with solving Europe's problems

Yes, we did solve European problems. American foreign policy - especially as it relates to Europe are expressed in Wilson's famous 14 points. I studied them back in my social studies class.... Very fascinating document.

- if all it took was American conquest then Iraq would now be problem free.

Do you know why we are in Iraq? Yet, if you are comparing American contribution both politically and physically both fighting for and rebuilding Europe with the current situation in Iraq - I am very dissapointed with you.

About all we did in freeing Europe from tyrannies, especially Nazism, was give Europeans the opportunity to solve their own problems, and prevent the tyrannies from attacking the US.

Actually, no. The United States, in conjuction with the Soviet Union, have enforced political status-quo on the former major European super-powers (England, Germany, France ) limiting their overall global and inter-political ambitions to stay within their own borders. I can go on and on about this...

As for Yugoslavia one reason for that was the Muslim proclivity to want an Islamic homeland everywhere in the world they go...

No. We got involved because Europe asked us to. The conflict was really distabilizing the continent and the European were powerless to do anything about it. Sad.

Lowell

08-11-2003, 07:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mil
Actually, no. The United States, in conjuction with the Soviet Union, have enforced political status-quo on the former major European super-powers (England, Germany, France ) limiting their overall global and inter-political ambitions to stay within their own borders. I can go on and on about this...

No kidding. So immediately after, yes, conquering one tyranny- Nazism- the US joins forces with another- Communism- which 'freezes' Europe into a status quo, and this you term solving Europe's problems.

Belgium

08-11-2003, 11:00 PM

Thank you Lowell for supporting me.
Mil, the Euro is stronger than the Dollar.
You seem to have no very good information, Mil, if you think all these things about Europe.

Mil

08-12-2003, 07:34 AM

Posted by Lowell:

No kidding.

Nope. No funny stuff allowed.

So immediately after, yes, conquering one tyranny

Conquering one tyranny? That's a new phrase.... What does it mean to conquer a tyranny? US and USSR liberated Europe from Nazism - if that is what you mean. They have established governments, national borders, and have ensured a political hegemony especially as in regards to Britain, France and Germany.

- Nazism- the US joins forces with another- Communism- which 'freezes' Europe into a status quo, and this you term solving Europe's problems.

Yep. I really suggest you put aside your moral prejudice aside and take a more practical approach to history.

Europe before WWII was a very interesting place.

Mil

08-12-2003, 07:40 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Mil, the Euro is stronger than the Dollar.

No, it's not stronger. It just costs more then the dollar both of which are two different things. The cost of the Euro can be manipulated by such little things as interest rates - something that Europe is really into these days.

You seem to have no very good information, Mil, if you think all these things about Europe.

What you mean no good information? What kind of information am I supposed to have? Europe's fiasco over Iraq would be studied in Diplomatic schools for ages to come. Plus what's good about Europe? Anti-semitism is on the rise, the economies are stagnating, it's still full of political sharlatans of all kinds..... thy God my parents took me to the States.

Belgium

08-12-2003, 09:27 AM

Ok, have it your way, but why then isn't the US doing the same with those "little things" as you call it?
Yes, Europe's fiasco... This was a crisis, indeed, started by the puppies of the US (the UK, Spain and Italy), not a very wise decision, because more than 50% in these countries was against a war in Iraq. I do remember that the government represents the people, but in this case it wasn't that way.

Lowell

08-12-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Conquering one tyranny? That's a new phrase.... What does it mean to conquer a tyranny? US and USSR liberated Europe from Nazism - if that is what you mean. They have established governments, national borders, and have ensured a political hegemony especially as in regards to Britain, France and Germany.

Yep. I really suggest you put aside your moral prejudice aside and take a more practical approach to history.

Europe before WWII was a very interesting place.

By conquering one tyranny I mean we invaded, we stormed ashore in the teeth of hostile Nazi fire, we dropped from the skies, we fought from town to town and door to door until we had subjugated- conquered- the Nazi military. The USSR was doing much the same, to be sure, but since Stalin was also murdering millions of Russians, not to mention his treaty with Hitler, I don't consider the USSR's contribution on the same plane. Incidentally, the USSR ceased to exist 14 years ago, in large measure due to their inability to maintain the Potemkin village of Communism. I have no moral prejudices against the use of force to overthrow, i.e. conquer, tyrannies although I don't think it solves the problems of the freed peoples- they still must deal with the History and proclivities that fomented the tyranny in the first place- only Europeans can solve Europe's problems, and only Iraqis can solve Iraq's.

Mediocrates

08-12-2003, 10:06 AM

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13770

By Robert Kagan

Concerns over transatlantic relations, American attitudes toward the United Nations Security Council, and the future of multilateralism stem from a single, overarching issue of the post–Cold War era: the issue of international legitimacy. When the United States wields its power, especially its military power, will world opinion and, more importantly its fellow liberal democracies, especially in Europe, regard its actions as broadly legitimate? Or will the United States appear, as it did to many during the crisis in Iraq, as a kind of rogue superpower?

“Legitimacy” is an intangible factor in foreign policy, but like so many intangibles it can have great practical significance. Neither this nor any future American administration wants to be regarded as behaving illegitimately when it goes to war; hence President George W. Bush sought U.N. support before the conflict. A perceived pattern of illegitimate behavior can limit the cooperation other countries are willing to offer and put sand in the gears of even a sole superpower. Nor are Americans likely to be comfortable consistently acting in ways that much of the world, and especially other like-minded peoples, deem illegitimate.

The problem is a new one for Americans and very much the product of post–Cold War changes in the international system. After World War II, the fundamental legitimacy of American foreign policy was not seriously questioned by the majority of peoples in Europe, nor by those of America’s Asian allies. The American responsibility for defending “the West” against the Soviet Union and international communism lent some justification, even to questionable policies. It was this widely acknowledged role in leading the common defense that bestowed legitimacy on American policy throughout the Cold War, not American obeisance to the dictates of international law or to the manifestly dysfunctional U.N. Security Council.

How to replace that old and irretrievable source of legitimacy is the challenge faced by this and future American administrations. Unprecedented American global dominance following the collapse of the Soviet Union has created suspicion and resentment even among America’s allies.

The blame for this state of affairs does not lie primarily with this or any previous administration in Washington. It was in the late 1990s that a French foreign minister coined the term “hyperpower”; nervousness about unchecked American power antedates George W. Bush and the Iraq war. Although poor diplomacy and careless rhetoric can exacerbate tensions, the core of the problem lies in the unique structural realities of the present international system. The overwhelming power of the United States and the lack of any plausible peer competitor are naturally unnerving, certainly to those who do not benefit from American dominance, and perhaps even to some of America’s allies, who do.

Global opposition to the Iraq war had much to do with these kinds of fears, which the United States should address. Americans will not always be able to say to the world, “Trust us, we know what we’re doing.”

Simple answers to the problem of international legitimacy will be elusive, however. The disparity of power at the root of the problem is an intractable reality, as many critics of the United States implicitly recognize. Many Europeans, for instance, often express their desire for a world order characterized not by American hegemony, however benevolent, but by checks and balances. Legitimacy would presumably come from a new “concert” of world powers, no one of which could act without the consent of the others.

Yet even under the questionable assumption that a 19th-century balance of power would be a more desirable system than one characterized by American hegemony, a return to multipolarity is not in the cards. A multipolar world cannot be decreed; it must be created. Europe lacks the will to establish itself as a second “pole” capable of balancing American power. Nor would most Europeans want to see multipolarity and global balance created by the rise of a superpower China or the return of a superpower Russia.

Europe’s inability or unwillingness to create actual global multipolarity explains much of the European desire to establish the U.N. Security Council as the sole authority for determining the legitimacy of military action, and especially American action. By investing equal power in the five permanent members, which include France and Britain, the Security Council today produces an institutional multipolarity, at least in theory, to compensate for the lack of genuine multipolarity in the international system.

Yet few Americans, and by no means all Europeans, would agree that the Security Council by itself is the answer to the problem of legitimacy. Europeans are increasingly accustomed to ceding authority to supranational bodies, but even self-proclaimed multilateralists in the United States don’t argue that the United States must always be bound by the decisions or nondecisions of the U.N. Security Council. In 1999, the major European countries themselves, including the French, agreed that a Security Council imprimatur was not necessary to legitimate military action in Kosovo. The fact is, in the decades since the founding of the U.N. Security Council, that entity has never succeeded in establishing itself as the final authority bestowing legitimacy on military action, and it is no closer to doing so today.

In addressing the problem of legitimacy, a simple institutional legalism will not avail. If the United States seeks legitimation for its actions, and it should, it will have to earn that legitimacy the old-fashioned way. It must promote and appear to promote not only its own national interest narrowly conceived, but also the common interests of the liberal democratic world. Even if the Cold War alliances cannot be re-created, this quality of American leadership during the Cold War can and should be emulated today.

Success solves many problems, as the global reaction to the fall of the Saddam Hussein regime has shown. American success in the military campaign and the failure of worst-case scenarios to materialize have not only blunted European opposition but have even led to a rethinking of that opposition. Such developments should put to rest some of the more hysterical claims on both sides of the Atlantic that the American invasion of Iraq has irreparably damaged the international order and severed transatlantic ties.

The ultimate legitimacy of the war, however, and of American behavior more broadly, will depend on the course Iraq takes. If the United States is seen to have fostered liberal democracy in Iraq; to have eliminated a security threat to the region and beyond; and to have undertaken the war not only for its own interests but also in the interests of others, then the question of legitimacy will be settled largely in America’s favor. If, however, Iraq is unstable and undemocratic, and the stability of the region as a whole has not improved, then the legitimacy of American actions and of American foreign policy in general will be eroded.

The problem of legitimacy, like most international problems, can never be definitively solved. Perhaps the best test of American foreign policy in the coming years will therefore be whether, through an active and generous diplomacy and through successful actions in the common interest, the United States can win the argument that it has acted in the common good more often than it loses it.

Robert Kagan is the author of Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order (New York: Knopf, 2003) and a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment.

Mil

08-12-2003, 10:53 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Ok, have it your way, but why then isn't the US doing the same with those "little things" as you call it?

US is doing the same thing. The Federal reserve has cut interest rates to 40 year lows. The European Bank has cut the same interests rates even lower then US.

Yes, Europe's fiasco... This was a crisis, indeed, started by the puppies of the US (the UK, Spain and Italy), not a very wise decision, because more than 50% in these countries was against a war in Iraq.

Given that Europe does not have an independent foreign policy doctrine as in regards to the ME - who cares. As far as Iraq is concerned I specifically wander if you personally had any opposition to the bombing of Serbia a few years back? The action was not supported by the Security Council and broke each and every international law and every chapter of the UN Charter.

I do remember that the government represents the people, but in this case it wasn't that way.

I bet in Belgium the government runs referendum on each and every foreign policy initiative it takes. Something to which we can attribute that stupid law - something, that makes your country, by your logic, at the least anti-semitic and anti-American..... Is that right?

Belgium

08-12-2003, 11:09 AM

Ah, good to know.
Well, about Serbia, offcourse it was wrong to bomb it, but I was too young to understand that war.
In the case of the genocide-law it didn't represent the country, especially by the abuses. if it wasn't abused by some, it would represent the people.

Mil

08-12-2003, 11:13 AM

Posted by Lowell:

By conquering one tyranny I mean we invaded, we stormed ashore in the teeth of hostile Nazi fire, we dropped from the skies, we fought from town to town and door to door until we had subjugated- conquered- the Nazi military.

How dramatic. I bet you love Ambrose and its history channel equivalents.

The USSR was doing much the same, to be sure, but since Stalin was also murdering millions of Russians, not to mention his treaty with Hitler, I don't consider the USSR's contribution on the same plane.

Actually USSR fought over 80% of the Werchmacht and over 70% of all the German allies. Actually USSR did much more then everyone else saving the world from Nazism.

As far as making separate treaties with Hitler - apparently the West also made separate treaties with Hitler. Actually both Stalin and the West were looking for their own separate accomodations with the Furher. The West surrendered most of central Europe to accomodate Hitler and to ensure security for themselves ; Stalin was a bit better at negotiations and actually benefitted from these by gaining some territorial concessions. Though both Stalin and the West got burned at the end.

Incidentally, the USSR ceased to exist 14 years ago, in large measure due to their inability to maintain the Potemkin village of Communism.

Potemkin village - ha, ha, ha!!!! I like it. What's your point? This does not change the fact that Soviet Union ensured European hagemony.

I have no moral prejudices against the use of force to overthrow, i.e. conquer, tyrannies although I don't think it solves the problems of the freed peoples

Apparently it does. We rebuild Germany, France, Greece, Korea, Japan, Italy, even subsidised Britishish economy till mid-sixties. Actually US subsidised the entire Western European economy till well into the sixties.

- they still must deal with the History and proclivities that fomented the tyranny in the first place- only Europeans can solve Europe's problems, and only Iraqis can solve Iraq's.

As recently as 5 years ago Europeans could still not solve their own problems. And it appears to me that US senators are having a blast making those Northern Ireland trips. The two World Wars were fought because Europeans could not solve their own problems. When it came to decolonization it was the US and USSR at the front, when it came to foreign policy initiatives - US, when it came to economic concessions and agreenments - US, when it came to political and economic commitments - US..... When will Europe take an initiative outside their usual anti-American rhetoric? Any time soon?

Belgium

08-12-2003, 12:01 PM

Mil, can I ask you something? Do you enjoy braking down Europeans and their thoughts?
Maybe Europe can't solve it's problems, but why do you think the US is so interessed in helping in the wars it has fought and there are more American wars than European. And Vietnam lasted longer than WWII. Not so good in solving problems either? :confused:

Mil

08-12-2003, 12:27 PM

Posted by Belgium:

Mil, can I ask you something? Do you enjoy braking down Europeans and their thoughts?

Breaking European thoughts? That's new. What I enjoy is bashing down that idiotic continent that is the #1 original culprit of many of the current world ills.

Maybe Europe can't solve it's problems,

Solving national problems is not a game.

but why do you think the US is so interessed in helping in the wars it has fought and there are more American wars than European.

What!!!!!!!! That's new..... You want me to start counting European wars in the last century or wars started by Europeans? WWII and WWI alone make all the conflicts America participated in sound like child's play. 45 million killed in WWII and 15 killed in WWI and about 10 mil killed during the Russian revolution make European internal count around 70 million. Adding other conflicts like Spanish civil war, endless Balkan wars, various colonial wars, Algiers, Congo, Indo-China, Yemen, Chad - add another 5-6 million which comes to around 80 mil. Any questions?

And Vietnam lasted longer than WWII. Not so good in solving problems either?

Yes. You got me there!!!!!!!!! Don't even make me laugh... Half of my family has been killed by civilized Western Europeans and I doubt you can talk me into accepting European peaceful history as such. It wasn't and giving the rising levels of anti-semitism it never will. Thy God for US.

Belgium

08-12-2003, 10:46 PM

From where comes this anger against Europe?

I said "maybe", but usual it solves it's problems well, a crisis is normal, I bet you have in the US as well.

You got me there, I only thought of the major wars. As I see now there are more European than American wars. But I think that by the end of the 21st century the score will be even...

Anti-Semitism... you say it's rising, I don't feel it rising here. We have anti-discrimination laws and the centre Leman, so I think Europe is doing it's best to solve this problem. Do you know that most wars are started because the country thinks that G-d is with them? Very wrong assumption sometimes. And if G-d is with the US, why then has it to go to war?

eyl

08-12-2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Belgium
Ah, good to know.
Well, about Serbia, offcourse it was wrong to bomb it, but I was too young to understand that war.

People were being slaughtered on a daily basis, and the UN was doing nothing. What would have been your suggestion to solve the situation?

Anti-Semitism... you say it's rising, I don't feel it rising here. We have anti-discrimination laws and the centre Leman, so I think Europe is doing it's best to solve this problem

What's the centre Leman?

Do you know that most wars are started because the country thinks that G-d is with them?

Not really, though that was sometimes the excuse (of course, you'd hardly start a war if you thought God was against you, but still).

Belgium

08-13-2003, 07:11 AM

That is a very difficult question...what should I suggest... I'd suggest to stop this slaughtering, but still try to get the blessing of the Security Council. A very difficult question indeed. I'll think about it and try to give a better answer.

The centre Leman is an organisation that tries to find cases of racism and discrimination and then files charges against those who are responsible.

You're right, what I wrote wasn't correct. Let me put it in a different way. Religion is sometimes a reason to start a war, along with many others (money, expansion, oil...).

Mil

08-13-2003, 07:18 AM

Posted by Belgium:

From where comes this anger against Europe?

I am just very confused on European stand on the entire Iraq debacle.

You got me there, I only thought of the major wars. As I see now there are more European than American wars. But I think that by the end of the 21st century the score will be even...

American battle cry in WWI was "Make the World Safe for Democracy." Will hope that by the end of the 21st century the entire world would be Democratic and no wars would be fought.

Anti-Semitism... you say it's rising, I don't feel it rising here.

According to agencies that monitor anti-semitism it is very much on the rise.

We have anti-discrimination laws and the centre Leman, so I think Europe is doing it's best to solve this problem.

Europe should have solved the anti-semitism problem in the last 60 years!!!! And laws do not stop anti-semitism, people do. Belgians - like you.

Do you know that most wars are started because the country thinks that G-d is with them?

Probably 90% of all the wars in history were started for purely political purposes.

Very wrong assumption sometimes. And if G-d is with the US, why then has it to go to war?

God? How old are you? US went to war with Iraq so to introduce order into the Arab world - the main culprit behind terrorism. Put pressure on the many criminal regimes in the area and enforce its own presence in the heart of the problem. The war on terrorism is not a war with certain individuals who make it happen - but with the environment that makes these people act as they do. The latter is the only true way to fight terrorism.

Mil

08-13-2003, 07:22 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Religion is sometimes a reason to start a war, along with many others (money, expansion, oil...).

Actually most of the time religion is used to justify a war and not to start one. In my memory I don't know of any wars fought specifically for religious reasons.

Belgium

08-13-2003, 08:00 AM

I'll give you an example. (I can't remember how it was called in English) The holy wars against Islam, when they had conquered Jeruzalem. In Dutch it's called "Kruistochten".

Mil

08-13-2003, 08:11 AM

Posted by Belgium:

I'll give you an example. (I can't remember how it was called in English) The holy wars against Islam, when they had conquered Jeruzalem. In Dutch it's called "Kruistochten".

These are called the "Great Crusades" in English. The Great Crusades were started by the Catholic Church for 100% political reasons in order to unite its power over the unruly Europe. The Crusades were not as much about Christianity vs. Islam as they were about the Cathlic Church as an institution.

Belgium

08-13-2003, 09:13 AM

Well, you say this, I say that. No use to go on about it. :o

Lowell

08-13-2003, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Mil

Apparently it does. We rebuild Germany, France, Greece, Korea, Japan, Italy, even subsidised Britishish economy till mid-sixties. Actually US subsidised the entire Western European economy till well into the sixties.

- they still must deal with the History and proclivities that fomented the tyranny in the first place- only Europeans can solve Europe's problems, and only Iraqis can solve Iraq's.

As recently as 5 years ago Europeans could still not solve their own problems. And it appears to me that US senators are having a blast making those Northern Ireland trips. The two World Wars were fought because Europeans could not solve their own problems. When it came to decolonization it was the US and USSR at the front, when it came to foreign policy initiatives - US, when it came to economic concessions and agreenments - US, when it came to political and economic commitments - US..... When will Europe take an initiative outside their usual anti-American rhetoric? Any time soon?

Ah... couldn't this be the crux of the problem- European- and the world's- dependence on American largesse? The US re-builds enemies, the US subsidizes entire national economies. Has not this policy created both dependence on the US and envy? It is a strange feature of dependency that it creates a sense of entitlement among the dependent, to the extent that they, whether nations or individuals, begin to believe they have a right to the subsidies and this, in turn, lessens their interest in solving their own problems. Europe, for example, has a vast welfare system for her citizens which requires exorbitant taxes but was not this fostered by the US presence and money? Russia may have done 80% of the fighting in WW 2 but America gave her substantial aid to do so. Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are dependent upon the US for defense although they are rich in their own right. We even give aid to North Korea which doesn't stop them from threatening the US with nuclear weapons. And now Afghanistan and Iraq are becoming dependent on the US. Add to all this the frictions and tensions of post-Cold War realignments and one gets a lot of anger directed against the 'sugar daddy' US.

Mil

08-13-2003, 11:36 AM

Posted by Lowell:

Ah... couldn't this be the crux of the problem- European- and the world's- dependence on American largesse?

Well I don't think if it's much about world's dependence as it's about the accomodations awarded to super-powers. According to some experts in the 21st century the world would be doniminated by five super-political super-enconomic entities: USA, China, Russia, EU and India. These entities would awarded global roles as protectors of the status quo and hopefully take the responsibility of the US's shoulders.

The US re-builds enemies, the US subsidizes entire national economies. Has not this policy created both dependence on the US and envy?

I wouldn't say so. The present accomodation as to the dispersion of American power satisfies both the US interests and the interests of the world. The other question is how much can America sustain with the burden....

It is a strange feature of dependency that it creates a sense of entitlement among the dependent, to the extent that they, whether nations or individuals, begin to believe they have a right to the subsidies and this, in turn, lessens their interest in solving their own problems.

Well - I don't know the consequences as to the psychological rationale, yet I do know that most do not complain as to the current accomodations.

Europe, for example, has a vast welfare system for her citizens which requires exorbitant taxes but was not this fostered by the US presence and money?

European Welfare system is an interesting case study all on its own. I don't know much about it but was always interested into the economics of it. I know many countries, including Israel, have copied or rather elaborated the European example. As far as taxes are concerned - we in the United States pay the most taxes in the world; both percent wise and especially amount wise.

Russia may have done 80% of the fighting in WW 2 but America gave her substantial aid to do so.

Lend Lease amounted to just under 4.5% of the entire Soviet military production and around 7.5% of the civilian. The help wasn't much at all and if anything really started coming in meaningful numbers in the second part of 1943 following Kursk. At the time it was fairly obvious as to the direciton of the war.

However, the Lend Lease program did provide Great Britain with over 40% of all its military needs.

Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are dependent upon the US for defense although they are rich in their own right.

And they don't complain. Israel, Europe, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait and Bahrain should also be added to the list. Though Israel is more dependent on the economic and political aspects of American strength. Also don't forget Turkey.

And now Afghanistan and Iraq are becoming dependent on the US.

You would be surprised but previously Iraq also depended on the US - previously meaning before 1989 or while the Soviet Union was still there. Saddam Hussein was really good at fighting communists and Iranians.

Add to all this the frictions and tensions of post-Cold War realignments and one gets a lot of anger directed against the 'sugar daddy' US.

Actually there are much less frictions and tensions following the collapse of the USSR rather it's the instability caused by uni-polarized world that are contributing to the chaos of the present. Especially the Arab world is affected.

Lowell

08-13-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Lowell:

Ah... couldn't this be the crux of the problem- European- and the world's- dependence on American largesse?

Well I don't think if it's much about world's dependence as it's about the accomodations awarded to super-powers. According to some experts in the 21st century the world would be doniminated by five super-political super-enconomic entities: USA, China, Russia, EU and India. These entities would awarded global roles as protectors of the status quo and hopefully take the responsibility of the US's shoulders.

The US re-builds enemies, the US subsidizes entire national economies. Has not this policy created both dependence on the US and envy?

I wouldn't say so. The present accomodation as to the dispersion of American power satisfies both the US interests and the interests of the world. The other question is how much can America sustain with the burden....

It is a strange feature of dependency that it creates a sense of entitlement among the dependent, to the extent that they, whether nations or individuals, begin to believe they have a right to the subsidies and this, in turn, lessens their interest in solving their own problems.

Well - I don't know the consequences as to the psychological rationale, yet I do know that most do not complain as to the current accomodations.

Europe, for example, has a vast welfare system for her citizens which requires exorbitant taxes but was not this fostered by the US presence and money?

European Welfare system is an interesting case study all on its own. I don't know much about it but was always interested into the economics of it. I know many countries, including Israel, have copied or rather elaborated the European example. As far as taxes are concerned - we in the United States pay the most taxes in the world; both percent wise and especially amount wise.

Russia may have done 80% of the fighting in WW 2 but America gave her substantial aid to do so.

Lend Lease amounted to just under 4.5% of the entire Soviet military production and around 7.5% of the civilian. The help wasn't much at all and if anything really started coming in meaningful numbers in the second part of 1943 following Kursk. At the time it was fairly obvious as to the direciton of the war.

However, the Lend Lease program did provide Great Britain with over 40% of all its military needs.

Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are dependent upon the US for defense although they are rich in their own right.

And they don't complain. Israel, Europe, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait and Bahrain should also be added to the list. Though Israel is more dependent on the economic and political aspects of American strength. Also don't forget Turkey.

And now Afghanistan and Iraq are becoming dependent on the US.

You would be surprised but previously Iraq also depended on the US - previously meaning before 1989 or while the Soviet Union was still there. Saddam Hussein was really good at fighting communists and Iranians.

Add to all this the frictions and tensions of post-Cold War realignments and one gets a lot of anger directed against the 'sugar daddy' US.

Actually there are much less frictions and tensions following the collapse of the USSR rather it's the instability caused by uni-polarized world that are contributing to the chaos of the present. Especially the Arab world is affected.

Amazing. It seems almost the whole world depends on the US, and its small wonder the US has the highest taxes on the planet. Won't this lead to the collapse of the US if and when the economic burden becomes unsupportable? Or at the least the collapse of the 'status quo' that American money and power buys?

Mil

08-13-2003, 12:21 PM

Posted by Lowell:

Amazing. It seems almost the whole world depends on the US,

You are right many countries depend on America. And many depend on USA for many different reasons be it economic, political, military or combination of some. For example Western Europe depends on the US for military and foreign policy initiatives. Europe does not have an independent foreign policy doctrine.

and its small wonder the US has the highest taxes on the planet.

Yep. Though we are still richer then many combined.

Won't this lead to the collapse of the US if and when the economic burden becomes unsupportable?

Our economy can sustain it. Currently US spends over 25 billion dollars a year on various economic aid packages. With the 15 billion dollar AIDs initiative I think it will be more. You can look up the information on the US Budget at the Finance Department. Forgot the link - you can just make a google search.

However, US also provides subsidies, loan guarantees, and is the main sponsor of IMF - actually US is the IMF. Thus emount of American foreign investments and subsidies is somewhere on the order of 50 billion or so a year, if not more. This is a lot of money!!!! Yet we can sustain it quite easily.

Or at the least the collapse of the 'status quo' that American money and power buys?

It wouldn't happen. Don't warry. At least not in our life times. Actually I hope that EU and Russia would get their stuff together and start contributing.

Lowell

08-13-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Lowell:

Amazing. It seems almost the whole world depends on the US,

You are right many countries depend on America. And many depend on USA for many different reasons be it economic, political, military or combination of some. For example Western Europe depends on the US for military and foreign policy initiatives. Europe does not have an independent foreign policy doctrine.

and its small wonder the US has the highest taxes on the planet.

Yep. Though we are still richer then many combined.

Won't this lead to the collapse of the US if and when the economic burden becomes unsupportable?

Our economy can sustain it. Currently US spends over 25 billion dollars a year on various economic aid packages. With the 15 billion dollar AIDs initiative I think it will be more. You can look up the information on the US Budget at the Finance Department. Forgot the link - you can just make a google search.

However, US also provides subsidies, loan guarantees, and is the main sponsor of IMF - actually US is the IMF. Thus emount of American foreign investments and subsidies is somewhere on the order of 50 billion or so a year, if not more. This is a lot of money!!!! Yet we can sustain it quite easily.

Or at the least the collapse of the 'status quo' that American money and power buys?

It wouldn't happen. Don't warry. At least not in our life times. Actually I hope that EU and Russia would get their stuff together and start contributing.

I'm not worried, Mil, it is too stupendous a situation for any one person to worry about. Every year the US essentially gives away the net worth of Bill Gates! And in the next decade the baby boomers will start retiring and the US government is obliged to provide their benefits. Even China depends on the US for trade and that is going to be a very rich 'Communist' country, but somehow I don't think the Chinese will be strewing their money to the world. It's interesting that the EU can afford to give Yasser Arafat some 250 million Euros a year but they can't find the money for worthier causes.

Mil

08-13-2003, 02:17 PM

I'm not worried, Mil, it is too stupendous a situation for any one person to worry about. Every year the US essentially gives away the net worth of Bill Gates! And in the next decade the baby boomers will start retiring and the US government is obliged to provide their benefits. Even China depends on the US for trade and that is going to be a very rich 'Communist' country, but somehow I don't think the Chinese will be strewing their money to the world. It's interesting that the EU can afford to give Yasser Arafat some 250 million Euros a year but they can't find the money for worthier causes.

Lowell actually a country that contributes most of humanitarian foreign aid in the world is Japan. US help to Israel, Egypt and Columbia is not considered humanitarian but is foreign aid never the less.

China has a long way to go to approach US in any way shape or form. As far as Arafat US provides over 160 mil a year to the Palestinians. Also US is largest contributor to the United Nations paying over 1.6 billion dollars annually which much more than that of the entire Europe combined. The second on the list is Japan with about 270 - 300 million annually. UN budget is around 3.5 billion a year where US is responsible for over 45% of the total and in combination with Japan over 60% alone. And those idiots are complaining that US still owes the UN!!!!!!!!

Lowell

08-13-2003, 05:10 PM

It seems ridiculous, given all this, for Belgium to claim to judge the world- kind of like a sardine judging the sharks and other big fish that prowl the deeps...

No offense, Belgium. :)

Belgium

08-14-2003, 12:04 AM

Yes... It is ridiculous. It's a pity that the size of the country has done it. sigh

IndianSummer

08-15-2003, 09:07 PM

ok...i know this reply is a little late in the day, but i'm a new member and just couldn't resist...

Bibi4erver : “…Maybe the U.N. should make some laws about which countries have the right to judge others!…”

Yeahh. And those countries would be exactly the ones which kow-tow to the United States, right? More power to the empire. May bush and the neo-cons in power continue to undermine the democratic rights of people everywhere. As long as Sharon and company get to take ‘revenge’ against the killings of settlers, it really doesn’t matter, does it…?

Negev : “…It doesn't take Poirot to discover that the cowardly Belgians don't have the guts (or integrity) to start prosecuting president Bush…”

So a fan of Dubaya is talking about ‘Integrity’, huh? And guts…

Bush and the neocons, aided by the supreme court (ever since Bush’s ‘election’ in 2000) have consistently worked to undermine the basic rights of the citizens of the united states and those of other countries. They have lied again and yet again to ‘build public opinion’ for an illegal war against iraq. During his presidency, Bush has worked overtime to make sure that the environment is sacrificed to the greed of his oil tycoon friends and Women’s rights are sacrificed to the fanaticism of his bible-belt vote base. The publicly declared doctrine of ‘preventive’ conflict (not pre-emptive conflict) is the most brazenly anti-democratic stand ever (though it wouldn’t be hard to find others when it comes to US foreign policy in the last 50 years). The idea that The leader of the united states, the most powerful country in the history of mankind, will lie and deceive 24/7 towards the end of waging war against an imaginary enemy, killing and maiming thousands in the process, is an insult to the idea of humanity itself.

Negev : “…The truth is that there is always a double standard when it comes to judging Israel. It is plain and simple the result of vicious anti-semitism and Arab oil blackmail and payoffs to European officials…”

Do you really believe what you are writing? How old are you anyways?

Negev : “…Nonetheless, Sharon was in no way responsible for Arab brutality against each other and as soon as he learned of the Arab vs. Arab revenge killings, he sent in israeli troops to defend the Palestinians…”

Do you seriously believe that? What is the source of your so-called ‘facts’? The official Israeli government communiqes?

Negev : “…Belgium should stick to what it knows best which is making bon-bons and ice-cream…”

I admire them for making bon-bons and ice-cream. At least they don’t make widows and orphans like your IDF and American marines…they don’t kill little children playing outside their refugee camps…the list goes on…

Belgium

08-15-2003, 11:45 PM

A good post, IndianSummer!
About the ice-cream and bon-bons, maybe we make widows because of the high cholesterol, but I think this is rare. :)
Welcome to this forum!

MichaelC

08-16-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
Yeahh. And those countries would be exactly the ones which kow-tow to the United States, right? More power to the empire. May bush and the neo-cons in power continue to undermine the democratic rights of people everywhere. As long as Sharon and company get to take ‘revenge’ against the killings of settlers, it really doesn’t matter, does it…?
So, let me see if I have this straight by employing a little metaphor:

A gang of murderous thugs invades your home, kills your mom, your little sister, and the family dog and when the police go after them and corner them, there's a shootout wherein some of those thugs and/or their henchmen get killed.

This is what you sarcastically term.....revenge?

By the way, your rude debut here is not exactly geared to establishing your credibility.

IndianSummer

08-16-2003, 03:40 PM

MichaelC : "...A gang of murderous thugs invades your home, kills your mom, your little sister, and the family dog and when the police go after them and corner them, there's a shootout wherein some of those thugs and/or their henchmen get killed.
..."

Get a reality check, dude. It is the state of israel which is occupying palastinian land, not the other way round.

If you mean the palestinian suicide bombers who kill innocent israelis, well yes. you would be quite right to go ahead and try to stop them using whatever means at your disposal....but INSIDE your own territory. right now you are an OCCUPYING power. i know it doesn't sound very good, but the the state of israel cannot, i repeat CANNOT kill little children, their mothers and fathers and expect other palestinian kids to grow up with love and brotherhood for them.

i am not hankering after credibility as a member of this forum, and especially not from brainwashed little boys like you.

i hold a responsibility to myself to speak the truth as i see it.

MichaelC

08-16-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
MichaelC : "...A gang of murderous thugs invades your home, kills your mom, your little sister, and the family dog and when the police go after them and corner them, there's a shootout wherein some of those thugs and/or their henchmen get killed.
..."

Get a reality check, dude. It is the state of israel which is occupying palastinian land, not the other way round.

If you mean the palestinian suicide bombers who kill innocent israelis, well yes. you would be quite right to go ahead and try to stop them using whatever means at your disposal....but INSIDE your own territory. right now you are an OCCUPYING power. i know it doesn't sound very good, but the the state of israel cannot, i repeat CANNOT kill little children, their mothers and fathers and expect other palestinian kids to grow up with love and brotherhood for them.

i am not hankering after credibility as a member of this forum, and especially not from brainwashed little boys like you.

i hold a responsibility to myself to speak the truth as i see it.
So far, what you've established here is that you're very full of yourself, if not something else.

Mediocrates

08-16-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer

Get a reality check, dude. It is the state of israel which is occupying palastinian land, not the other way round.

No that's not entirely true, at least not in the sense of the security that a nation lives under.

If you mean the palestinian suicide bombers who kill innocent israelis, well yes. you would be quite right to go ahead and try to stop them using whatever means at your disposal....but INSIDE your own territory.

I'm guessing that's supposed to be ironic. Because 'bombers who kill innocent civilians' is I guess according to your twisted mind, acceptable, or at least something you can behind from wherever the hell it is you live.

right now you are an OCCUPYING power. i know it doesn't sound very good, but the the state of israel cannot, i repeat CANNOT kill little children, their mothers and fathers and expect other palestinian kids to grow up with love and brotherhood for them.

It really doesn't concern me how anyone 'grows up.' Only the truly naive think that terrorism simply pops up like mushrooms. Sorrrrrrry Duuuuuude, but thems the facts.

i am not hankering after credibility as a member of this forum,

Fair enough, being retarded isn't a sin.

i hold a responsibility to myself to speak the truth as i see it.

That doesn't make you right, it merely makes you delusional. Your words, not mine.

Donna

08-16-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by MichaelC
So far, what you've established here is that you're very full of yourself, if not something else.

I'll take Something Else for $500.00.

IndianSummer

08-16-2003, 07:27 PM

Mediocrates : "...that's not entirely true, at least not in the sense of the security that a nation lives under..."

the 'sense of security'? you mean the 'sense of threat'. read what you've written again.

The human rights of tens of thousands of people cannot be made subservient to another nation's perception of threat.

i dare you to deny that innocent palestinian children have been killed at the hands of the IDF on their way to achool, outside their refugee camps as they played, in cars supposedly carrying islamic terrorists, their mothers buried alive under the rubble of bulldozed homes...

Mediocrates : "...I'm guessing that's supposed to be ironic. Because 'bombers who kill innocent civilians' is I guess according to your twisted mind, acceptable..."

First: NO i was not being ironical at all. It is a fact that palastinian suicide bombers kill(ed) hundreds of innocent civilians. and the state of israel has every right to defend itself...short of violating the human rights of other palastinians. do you really think that just because a section of palastinian public opinion is supportive of the islamic jihad and hamas that any and every palastinian must be made to feel the loss of THEIR civilians, should they be made to feel the humiliation and anger of watching israeli tanks invade the west bank and gaza, and should they be made to choose between their pride as a people and staying alive?

Mediocrates : "...It really doesn't concern me how anyone 'grows up'..."

So it doesn't concern you if little kids are scarred for life, as they watch palestinian body-sacks line up the streets. those palestinians who had the termity to try to defend their territory with stones against the hi-tech mechanised might of the IDF? or are they sub-human little vermins, who shouldn't be treated like human beings?

it doesn't concern you how anyone grows up. well, exactly what those hate-mongering idiots in hamas and islamic jihad say when they respond to reports that their suicide bombers killed israeli children.

you are no different from them.

Mediocrates : "...retarded isn't a sin..."

yes i am a retard. i am a retard if i feel something is horribly wrong with this world when innocents are killed. for the greed of some. the greed of power, greed of wealth or in your case, just plain inhumanity.

Mediocrates : "...That doesn't make you right, it merely makes you delusional..."

It makes me neither. It makes me intelligent enough to doubt myself enough to change my opinion if i am proven wrong. And it makes me pity those idiots who think that the value of some human beings is less than others.

elreason4

08-16-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Belgium
Thank you Lowell for supporting me.
Mil, the Euro is stronger than the Dollar.
You seem to have no very good information, Mil, if you think all these things about Europe.

That must explain why the Iraq under Baath tyranny horded 10x more US currency (over a billion) over the Euro.

MichaelC

08-16-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Donna
I'll take Something Else for $500.00.

:cool: :D :cool:

Communication

08-16-2003, 09:30 PM

IndianSUmmer,

the problem is that groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't seperate themselves from the civilian population and when they come to attack, it is often inside of Israel itself. Israel knew that the terrorists were operating out of Jenin, building bomb factories there and dispatching suicide bombers for years and yet they didn't go in until multiple bombings were hapening daily. Nobody likes checkpoints but the facts are that many of the suicide bombers who would have otherwise made it into Israel were stopped and apprehended at them. Nobody likes the situation but there are many complex reasons why the occupation continues.

Under Oslo, Israel transfered areas to the PA and gave them guns and CIA training to apprehend terrorists. Instead, the PA was too corrupt and inept to provide the people the services they needed and so Hamas did it, and they improved their status in the communities. When the terro groups dispathced suicide bombers into Israel (during Oslo) the PA almost never went after them and when they did, they were released almost right away. The PA even financed much of the illegal weapons smuggling and terror operations. But everyone went ahead with the Oslo "peace process" only to have it break down over issues that still seem unresolvable. Now that Israel has given additional concessions to the Palestinians, PA leadership again brought up the right of return, but said that it was an implicit right in the Road Map. I think that Israel would like to get out of this, but at what cost and how?

Mercury

08-17-2003, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
It is the state of israel which is occupying palastinian land, not the other way round.

Can you tell me what are in your opinion the main differences between the occupation of palestine and the occupation of Kashmir?

Belgium

08-17-2003, 02:07 AM

A very interesting discussion.

Indeed, some actions of the IDF are wrong, but they try to defend their country. I heard in the news that Israel has returned four cities in West-Bank and Gaza to the PA. A good step towards peace

Leon

08-17-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
A very interesting discussion.

Indeed, some actions of the IDF are wrong, but they try to defend their country. I heard in the news that Israel has returned four cities in West-Bank and Gaza to the PA. A good step towards peace

We are experiencing a recurring theme- a bad case of dejavoo: Israel making the concessions to a people who are willing to make none. Abu Mazen recently declared the he is not willing to fignt the terrorists- right after signing an agreement declaring he will. Israel has always been willing to hand over territories to the Palestinians- thats why 95% of Palestinians have lived under Yasser Arafat. Good steps toward peace only lie with the Palestinians and their willingless to stop terrorism, incitment and hatred. Anything else is a recurring theme- something which went back to 1993.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 02:54 AM

Yes, that is a problem. But if it is sow difficult to get peace between the two, I think it is the duty of Security Council to send peace-troops to Israel and the Palestina to see that the accords are being followed, and if necessary with force.

Leon

08-17-2003, 03:06 AM

The human rights of tens of thousands of people cannot be made subservient to another nation's perception of threat.

But conviently ignore the human rights of a few million people who unlike the Palestinians- are the tagerts of indiscrimnate murder. Their human rights, the most basic of which, is the right to live and the right to exist should not be made subservient to the PA or any other despotic regime.

i dare you to deny that innocent palestinian children have been killed at the hands of the IDF on their way to achool, outside their refugee camps as they played, in cars supposedly carrying islamic terrorists, their mothers buried alive under the rubble of bulldozed homes...

Are you saying that like Hamas, the IDF purposly murders children and other innocents?

First: NO i was not being ironical at all. It is a fact that palastinian suicide bombers kill(ed) hundreds of innocent civilians. and the state of israel has every right to defend itself...short of violating the human rights of other palastinians.

And how on earth do they go about doing that? Tell me- were check points around before terrorists started murdering school children and families eating out at resteraunts or observing religious holidays? We're the movements of Palestinian ambulances restricted before or after terrorists used them to ferry weapons and homicide bombers to their final destinations?

The Palestinians only have the terrorists to blame for their current situation. Noone else. Recently groups of brave Palestinians admitted this and started a riot against Yasser Arafat and Hamas- attempting to evict the Hamas movement in their town.

do you really think that just because a section of palastinian public opinion is supportive of the islamic jihad and hamas that any and every palastinian must be made to feel the loss of THEIR civilians, should they be made to feel the humiliation and anger of watching israeli tanks invade the west bank and gaza, and should they be made to choose between their pride as a people and staying alive?

They are feeling the humliation and anger brought onto them by the terrorists and the PA who cooperate with them. Humiliation and anger is a small price to pay when the lives of innocent people are at stake and the Palestinianj Authority is unwilling to prevent the murder of innocents by fighting off terrorists. Instead they cooperate, work with them and fund and coordinate all their activites.

So it doesn't concern you if little kids are scarred for life, as they watch palestinian body-sacks line up the streets.

Its interesting that you mention little kids been scarred for life as they watch Palestinian body-bags. Its also interesting to note that the majority of Palestinians who were killed over the past three years were either armed combatants or terrorists. The same could not be said for Israeli dead.

what is of cocern is the body-bags of Israeli school children and teenagers- who are not scarred for life- but DEPRIVED OF life. These are innocents who are purposly and indisrcimnatley murdered- their crime: nationality and religion.

those palestinians who had the termity to try to defend their territory with stones against the hi-tech mechanised might of the IDF?

Ahh yes, the good old image of a Palestinian David and a Jewish Goliath. Oh how times changed since the days of the bible. Uncle Arafat is very proud every time the images of stone throwing kids is raised- the more kids- the better thus making uncle Arafat proud. A great PR stunt indeed. Question is- shouldnt these children be at home or at school? Who sends or encourages these children - some as young as five?

Recently a Palestinian children show was broadcast and the host of the show asked a 12 year old girl- 'what do you prefer full and equal rights or martydom?' The girl chose martydom.
Its interesting to find out who puts these ideas into the minds of the children- who then go out in the middle of a battle ground and throw stones.

or are they sub-human little vermins, who shouldn't be treated like human beings?

Again, this is a funny assertion- an assertion that Israel is acting out of racial hatred. You yourself admitted that Israel is acting in self-defence. It has nothing to do with race or the idea of 'subhumans' or 'vermin.' If you want to hear ideas about 'subhumans' and 'vermins' I suggest you watch live Palestinian broadcasts and religious sermons on T.v declaring that all Jews are monkeys and pigs and deserve to be killed.

yes i am a retard. i am a retard if i feel something is horribly wrong with this world when innocents are killed. for the greed of some. the greed of power, greed of wealth or in your case, just plain inhumanity.

Plain inhumanity? Greed? I ask again-

1. Do you honestly believe that like Palestinian terrorists Israel seeks to indiscrminatley murder innocent people and wipe an entire nation off the face of the earth?

2. Is Israel acting in the name of greed, wealth and power?

or
3. Is Israel acting in the name of secruity and protecting its own citizens?

And it makes me pity those idiots who think that the value of some human beings is less than others. [/B]

I pity those very same people.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 05:03 AM

But conviently ignore the human rights of a few million people who unlike the Palestinians- are the tagerts of indiscrimnate murder. Their human rights, the most basic of which, is the right to live and the right to exist should not be made subservient to the PA or any other despotic regime.
No-one should be denied his rights, no matter his race, religion... The Israeli population has the right to live in peace, but so do the Palestians have.

Are you saying that like Hamas, the IDF purposly murders children and other innocents?
I don't think IndianSummer wants to say that. I am sure that the IDF doesn't kill innocents on purpose, but some mistakes could be avoided, we all remember the death of that child hiding behind his father, while the IDF-forces shot on them. They carried no weapons, this could be avoided.

And how on earth do they go about doing that? Tell me- were check points around before terrorists started murdering school children and families eating out at resteraunts or observing religious holidays? We're the movements of Palestinian ambulances restricted before or after terrorists used them to ferry weapons and homicide bombers to their final destinations?
I don't think there were checkpoints before the attacks, and checkpoints aren't bad, but restricting ambulances. This is pure nonsense. I heard a woman died due of waitinglines at checkpoints.

Mercury

08-17-2003, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
I am sure that the IDF doesn't kill innocents on purpose, but some mistakes could be avoided, we all remember the death of that child hiding behind his father, while the IDF-forces shot on them. They carried no weapons, this could be avoided.

In the incident you mention the child and his father were caught in a cross-fire and it's not quite clear whose fire it was that eventually killed him. In any case, it's easy to blame soldiers that they are too quick on a trigger while sitting in a chair.
I don't know, may be, when you are fired at, you can immediately recognize the perpetrator and then disarm him in a gentle manner without any risk for the bystanders. Unfortunately, we are not such supermen.

Mediocrates

08-17-2003, 06:01 AM

How high does "Belgium" set the bar? Higher than any other country? Infinitely high? Supernaturally high? I hear this all the time "You could do better...." but precious little in the way of what that actually means, or how. I suppose in the PC world there is a magic Harry Potter wand one can wave where no one is ever hurt or hungry.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 07:02 AM

In the incident you mention the child and his father were caught in a cross-fire and it's not quite clear whose fire it was that eventually killed him. In any case, it's easy to blame soldiers that they are too quick on a trigger while sitting in a chair. I don't know, may be, when you are fired at, you can immediately recognize the perpetrator and then disarm him in a gentle manner without any risk for the bystanders. Unfortunately, we are not such supermen.
I don't think it is that difficult to shoot and not hit the father and his child if you have good intentions. No, I am not a superhuman, no-one is.

How high does "Belgium" set the bar? Higher than any other country? Infinitely high? Supernaturally high? I hear this all the time "You could do better...." but precious little in the way of what that actually means, or how. I suppose in the PC world there is a magic Harry Potter wand one can wave where no one is ever hurt or hungry.
I don't think Belgium has anything to do with what I posted. Does it? There is no perfect world, but did I say that? I don't see why you begin about the world of Harry Potter in it's perfection.

Mediocrates

08-17-2003, 07:46 AM

I meant you, how high do YOU set the bar? While it's a fascinating intellectual exercise to posit that Israel must do something better, more altruistic, different than nearly everyone else, or conversely, NOT do something we would expect of nearly everyone else, yea demand of our own government, I wonder just where the bar is set? If for example there were 5 dozen suicide bomb attacks tomorrow or Hamas destroyed a powerplant or put chemicals in the water supply... I just wonder how you and people like you see a chronic, and make no mistake about it, this is a permanent condition of greater and lesser degrees of terrorism resulting in any or no response at all?

danholo

08-17-2003, 08:01 AM

Now where is that thread called "Who shot Muhammad al-Durra?" for our ignorant anti-Israel friends?

MichaelC

08-17-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
I don't think it is that difficult to shoot and not hit the father and his child if you have good intentions
The problem with the exchange of information or "opinion" in a conversation such as this is highlighted by the above posted comment. Such a comment can only be made by someone who has not only never had any military training, but has never been anywhere near a firefight.

I do not mean to use the word "ignorant" as a pejorative but rather as an indication of a total lack of knowledge and experience in what you said. No person who has ever been a soldier could ever see that statement as anything else.

Danholo mentioned the thread in which this matter was discussed at length. You really should search it out and read it.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 10:28 AM

I don't set the bar higher than on any other countries. Every country should strive to peace for all.

You speak about me as about filth, Mediocrates. I saw this in another forum that now has disapeared. I do not approve terrorism, as every sane person.

Danholo, you should know that in a healthy discussion you need both pro and contra.

I admit I never had a military training and I'll never have one. Maybe you are an expert in this and then I redraw my statement.

Maybe I'll search for that thread, if I have some time.

danholo

08-17-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Danholo, you should know that in a healthy discussion you need both pro and contra.

Well I do know. That's why I did say "friends".

I admit I never had a military training and I'll never have one. Maybe you are an expert in this and then I redraw my statement.

Neither have I. But I fail to realize what this has to do with the discussion.

Maybe I'll search for that thread, if I have some time.

You do that.

The case of Muhammad al-Durra is a perfect example on how the biased system against Israel works. It's small, tiny details that fuel anger against Israel more and more every day, even if they are most likely unintentional. Things like these are misreported and then totally neglected after future investigation into the issue, thus giving a slanted picture of the whole situation. Small things amount to one big one and this is why every small incident like this has to be extensively discussed about - epecially on such a sensitive issue as the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Otherwise the whole thing falls apart and that news agency can be accused, rightfully, of bias.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 10:42 AM

Well I do know. That's why I did say "friends".
Well, that is then rectified.

Neither have I. But I fail to realize what this has to do with the discussion.
MichaelC said something about that, I replied.

danholo

08-17-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Well, that is then rectified.

MichaelC said something about that, I replied.

I though it was meant for me. Sorry.

Belgium

08-17-2003, 10:45 AM

I don't mind.

Mediocrates

08-17-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Belgium
I don't set the bar higher than on any other countries. Every country should strive to peace for all.

Noble goals to be sure but the sentiment doesn't bear that out.

You speak about me as about filth, Mediocrates. I saw this in another forum that now has disapeared. I do not approve terrorism, as every sane person.

No, sorry if you took that away. Peace is not the absence of feeling bad about some people. It is not enough to not approve of something. It is less than enough to listen hopefully to murderers explain their positions to you.

eyl

08-17-2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Belgium
I don't think it is that difficult to shoot and not hit the father and his child if you have good intentions. No, I am not a superhuman, no-one is.

It's nowhere near that simple. Consider that a firefight (even a static one) is not like a firing range; you don't have the luxury of taking a while to aim. Every time you fire at an enemy is an opportunity for the enemy to shoot at YOU; so you "pop up", aim quickly, shoot, and resume cover. That doesn't lend to accuracy; in fact, it's usual for most of the bullets fired to miss. This doesn't even address the likelihood of ricochets in an urban environment (which is not neglegible; I once saw someone shot in the back by a ricochet).

And in this specific case, there's some doubt as to which side actually killed the two; there's a thread around here somewhere on the subject

eyl

08-17-2003, 09:17 PM

Belgium

08-17-2003, 10:59 PM

Well, Eyl, I redraw my statement as you seem to be an expert in these matters.

And why are they worse than useless?

Mercury

08-18-2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Belgium

And why are they worse than useless?

Do you really think that UN peacekeepnig force would actively chase the terrorists (which involves arrests and housesearches)? Or that they will forcefully disperse violent demonstrations? In short, will they do anything which is likely to involve them in confrontation with arabs? The only thing they can and will do if actually deployed is to provide an additional protection for Hamas and such.

eyl

08-18-2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Well, Eyl, I redraw my statement as you seem to be an expert in these matters.

And why are they worse than useless?

I'm very far from an expert, but I do have a little experience.

Anyway, some of the problems with peacekeepers are:

1) Historically, UN peacekeeping forces have often been more concerned with preserving themselves rather than protecting those they are supposed to. Srebrinca is probably the most notorious incident, but there were other cases where UN forces surrendered people under their protection to their enemies (there was an article in the Jerusalem Post about this a while back; I'll see if I have a link this evening and post it if I do).

2) Israel has deep reservations regarding the impartiality of UN forces, especially after the kidnapping of three soldiers in Lebanon.

3) It is very unlikely that peacekeeping forces would be willing to stage incursions or arrests in Palestinian territories, given the stances of their home countries whenever Israel does so, but that is neccessary to stop terrorist attacks. While a lot of terrorists are intercepted en route, that cannot be the only method used (consider Israel's size; a suicide bomber from Qalqilyah can be in the Israeli town of Kfar Saba after 20-30 minutes on foot).

4) Given 3, peacekeeping forces are not very effective against guerrila movements. Imagine that the commander of UN forces, whose mission is to protect attacks on both sides, has managed to set up intellience assets through which he's discovered Israel plans to stage an atatck on a Palestinian city. He can contact the government and demand it not take place (or do so through the UN), and if it takes place regardless, there is a clear person who is responsible for that attack, whether it be the Prime Minister, the IDF Chief of Staff, or so forth. In any event, the government can be held responsible.
Now imagine the same thing, with Palestinians instead of Israel. The terrorist organizations are not formally answerable to the PA. If the commander demands an attack be stopped and it isn't, there's nobody who is accountable for it; the Palestinians can always disavow the terrorists' actions, and they can therefore act with relative impunity.

Mediocrates

08-18-2003, 05:07 AM

Israel has stated formally and categorically it will NEVER outsource its security to ANY third party. That is the public statement of the MFA. Nothing more need be said on it.

Mil

08-18-2003, 07:16 AM

Posted by Eyl:

Ah peacekeepers again. The problem is that peacekeepers, at least as far as Israel is concerned, will be worse than useless.

I want to add that no country would be willing to send any peace-keepers to Israel/Palestine. It's a huge political burden in case of failure. Plus, as history has shown, no UN security force could have prevented any of the Arab/Israeli conflicts or wars.

Belgium

08-18-2003, 10:32 AM

Yes, but I think it is worth a try. Everything should be tried to end this conflict. But offcourse there are other ways than Un-peacekeepers.

Mil

08-18-2003, 11:29 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Yes, but I think it is worth a try. Everything should be tried to end this conflict. But offcourse there are other ways than Un-peacekeepers

Everything possible to try - was already tried. As far as a multi-national force which countries do you think would participate?

Lowell

08-18-2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
MichaelC : "...A gang of murderous thugs invades your home, kills your mom, your little sister, and the family dog and when the police go after them and corner them, there's a shootout wherein some of those thugs and/or their henchmen get killed.
..."

Get a reality check, dude. It is the state of israel which is occupying palastinian land, not the other way round.

If you mean the palestinian suicide bombers who kill innocent israelis, well yes. you would be quite right to go ahead and try to stop them using whatever means at your disposal....but INSIDE your own territory. right now you are an OCCUPYING power. i know it doesn't sound very good, but the the state of israel cannot, i repeat CANNOT kill little children, their mothers and fathers and expect other palestinian kids to grow up with love and brotherhood for them.

i am not hankering after credibility as a member of this forum, and especially not from brainwashed little boys like you.

i hold a responsibility to myself to speak the truth as i see it.

Wrong. Israel has only one-tenth of one percent of Middle Eastern land, and the Arabs have 99.99%. It is the Arab 'Palestinians' who are occupying Israel's land, and not the other way around. In fact, there are NO 'Palestinians' as such- they are Arabs, pure and simple. It is Israeli children who have been wantonly murdered by the so-called 'Palestinians', and the only 'Palestinian' children killed are those who strapped on bombs to sally forth and murder Israelis. Brainwashed little boy describes you perfectly: wipe your chin and don't get that drool on the carpet.

Belgium

08-18-2003, 10:06 PM

Well, I'm sure that you are right about the geographies of the ME. Bu I think all people have the right to live in whatever country they want, offcourse if they are approved by the government. And with a little bit of luck there will not be any occupation in the years after 2005. I hope the Palestinians use their land usefull and don't turn against their neighbours.

Belgium

08-18-2003, 10:08 PM

Everything possible to try - was already tried. As far as a multi-national force which countries do you think would participate?
There are allways countries who want to participate. I am confident that the US would participate. A couple of European countries. i think it would be a good chance for Polen to make up his error in the past...

Mercury

08-19-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Yes, but I think it is worth a try. Everything should be tried to end this conflict. But offcourse there are other ways than Un-peacekeepers.

Every situation, however bad it seems, can always be made worse. Surgeons are not supposed to poke patients with a knife in hope of miraculously curing them. So far you have not shown that the advantages of UN force (if there are any) would outweigh the damage.

Mil

08-19-2003, 05:50 AM

Posted by Belgium:

There are allways countries who want to participate.

It's not the question of who wants to participate but who will be willing to accept the responsibility (both political and geopolitical) and be acceptable by both parties. I personally don't see too many candidates.

I am confident that the US would participate.

US is currently participating.

A couple of European countries. i think it would be a good chance for Polen to make up his error in the past...

Who is Polen? In any case the Arabs would not accept any Western European presence - that's for sure. Given the current relationship with the Europeans and their complete failure in Yugoslavia Israelis would be against Europe also.

Belgium

08-19-2003, 10:17 AM

Well, if Israel doesn't want the help of Europe, I don't complain. Polen=Poland.

Lowell

08-19-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Well, if Israel doesn't want the help of Europe, I don't complain. Polen=Poland.

Did Czechoslovakia want the help of Europe, or was that nation horrified at being broken up by Europe as an appeasement to Hitler? Similarly, it seems that Europe is intent on dividing Israel as an appeasing sop to the terroristic Arabs. Why can't Europe focus on strictly European matters instead of helping the foes of civilization sow discord and death in the world?

Mil

08-19-2003, 10:40 AM

Well, if Israel doesn't want the help of Europe, I don't complain.

Even if Israel was begging Western Europe for a military presence you would not find any volunteers. For sure neither England, France, or Germany would agree.

Polen=Poland.

Poland is too insignificant.

Mediocrates

08-19-2003, 10:41 AM

'Helping Israel' and 'Poland' don't belong in the same sentence. I spit on them. The day Israel can benefit from a political relationship with the EU is the day that the national language of both places is Arabic. Until then it's just a different group of people squabbling over who gets to melt down Jewish tooth fillings.

Belgium

08-19-2003, 10:48 AM

Did Czechoslovakia want the help of Europe, or was that nation horrified at being broken up by Europe as an appeasement to Hitler? Similarly, it seems that Europe is intent on dividing Israel as an appeasing sop to the terroristic Arabs. Why can't Europe focus on strictly European matters instead of helping the foes of civilization sow discord and death in the world?
Well, which is the country that has the biggest foreign-affairs policy? Why should "Europe focus on strictly European matters instead of helping the foes of civilization sow discord and death in the world?", if the US can do that?

Well, if Israel doesn't want the help of Europe, I don't complain. Even if Israel was begging Western Europe for a military presence you would not find any volunteers. For sure neither England, France, or Germany would agree.
Maybe not...

'Helping Israel' and 'Poland' don't belong in the same sentence. I spit on them. The day Israel can benefit from a political relationship with the EU is the day that the national language of both places is Arabic. Until then it's just a different group of people squabbling over who gets to melt down Jewish tooth fillings.
Well, this is a prejudice. Blablabla, do you really think we only want the teeth of Jews?

MichaelC

08-19-2003, 10:57 AM

I don't really want to be the one to cast the first stone.....oh, what the hell..........there is a certain poster in this thread who is not making much sense at all and everyone is giving him/her a lot of "screen time" for essentially meaningless input.

Not naming any names, so don't ask. But if the shoe fits, put it on and walk to the nearest book store or search engine for some educational upgrading.

Mediocrates

08-19-2003, 10:57 AM

Belgium
I think your countrymen by and large would step over the dead bodies of Jewish children to get to their next hot meal.

Mil

08-19-2003, 11:05 AM

Posted by Belgium:

Well, which is the country that has the biggest foreign-affairs policy?

First is the US followed by Russia. Then there is a distance of about five kilometers - then may be Great Britain.

Why should "Europe focus on strictly European matters instead of helping the foes of civilization sow discord and death in the world?", if the US can do that?

that's exactly!!!! You got it!!!!!!!

Maybe not...

Trust me. Europe ...................... believe me. As we have talked before - Europe is politically commitless with an only attributable value being economics. But - you can't buy peace.

Belgium

08-19-2003, 09:58 PM

My countrymen wouldn't walk over the dead bodies of Jews, nor over any other bodies. And why do you think that? Ah yes, prejudice...

Belgium

08-19-2003, 09:59 PM

MichaelC, I think you are pointing at me, correct? Well, I don't force you to spend "screen time" on me.

Mediocrates

08-20-2003, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
My countrymen wouldn't walk over the dead bodies of Jews, nor over any other bodies. And why do you think that? Ah yes, prejudice...

History, past performance, current media wailing, current political voices of those in a position to do something, the Belgian Malcolm X. They tell me that.

People are not countries, countries are. But you don't need a lot of people to lead the charge that others follow. We praise the single Martin Luther King and the single Dalai Lama but somehow refuse to accept that even a small number of charistmatic and motivated individuals can whip an entire country into a race hate spewing mob. I remember a few years ago that Poles, for example were incensed that Jewish groups complained about the construction of a nightclub over a Shoah cemetary outside of Auschwitz. I had to stop for moment and ponder that one.

The only thing that's interesting at all is that we still need to have discussions about what to do with European antisemitism. Like, are there dragons, and is the earth flat and how many Jews really control the world....?

Leon

08-20-2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Yes, that is a problem. But if it is sow difficult to get peace between the two, I think it is the duty of Security Council to send peace-troops to Israel and the Palestina to see that the accords are being followed, and if necessary with force.

I dont think that will solve anything. On the contrary it will make things worse. Consider the UN's so called 'credibilty'... Does it have any credibitlty to start off with? When taking their past record into account, I would say none:

1. Serbia/Bosnia
2. Rawanda

Thats just the start...

3. In 1967, UN troops backed down to Nassers demand to leave the border with Israel without fuss- thus failing fulfill their responsbilities!!

4. Under UN supervision Palestinians were allowed to run their
hatred against Jews unchecked- breaking all the rules of OSLO: e.g. UN run schools had text books which indoctrinated racial hatreds and incited voilence + intolerance.

The fact that UN security council has Syria as a member also makes the situation even more laughable. (the terror police state Syria has taken the chair of the council for this month!)

Lets not mention Libya- after it was appointed to chair human rights!!!!

Leon

08-20-2003, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Belgium [/i]
[B]No-one should be denied his rights, no matter his race, religion... The Israeli population has the right to live in peace, but so do the Palestians have.

Thats not my point. My point was- The actions of the Israeli government should not be equated to the actions of Palestinian terrorists. Such an equation is amoral.

I don't think IndianSummer wants to say that.

Well, he already said it- in plain language for all to see. There is not much point trying to speak on his behalf- real time waster.

I am sure that the IDF doesn't kill innocents on purpose, but some mistakes could be avoided, we all remember the death of that child hiding behind his father, while the IDF-forces shot on them. They carried no weapons, this could be avoided.[/QUOTE ]

As someone pointed out, there is no proof that the IDF were the ones who actually shot the boy. Ironically a German newsagencey proved that he was shot by Palestinian terrorists. Its strange that whenever a situaiton like this occurs, everyone automatically blames the IDF- even when their is no evidence.

I don't think there were checkpoints before the attacks, and checkpoints aren't bad, but restricting ambulances. This is pure nonsense. I heard a woman died due of waitinglines at checkpoints.

Restricting ambulances is pure nonesance? A woman died because of waiting in line? If Palestinian terroirists use ambulances for their activites, thus voilating every moral and international law...what do you want Israel to do? The death of that woman and the suffering of the Palestinians only lie with the terrorists. Blaming any outside force is childish. The Palestinians are only starting to realise this...

Mediocrates

08-20-2003, 07:03 AM

I'll put the IDF process review and judicial review and transparency and political discussion and media punditry up against terrorist shoot first complain later modalities any day.

Belgium

08-20-2003, 08:03 AM

Well, it seems that I am in the minority. :)

Mil

08-20-2003, 08:24 AM

Well, it seems that I am in the minority.

Well, it also seems that in Europe they don't teach principles of democracy in schools.

Lowell

08-20-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Well, it seems that I am in the minority. :)

To the contrary, Belgium, you are in the majority: a majority of peoples in the world, unfortunately, are either indifferent or explicitly malevolent toward Israel and toward Jews in general. Those who defend the right of Israel to exist on her ancient lands, and the right of Jews to be let alone to live their lives as they choose are in the minority in this world, but it is a sane minority- unlike the insane majority position, which either doesn't care that Israelis are murdered for no reason whatsoever or actively gives aid and assistance to their murderers. The insanity of the majority, which you represent, is revealed in the moral equivalence drawn between Israel's defensive actions and the murderous bloodshed of the terrorists who beset her. Why do you hold that Israelis defending themselves from unprovoked attacks upon Israel and her citizens is somehow no different than the attack itself? Is this your vaunted 'humanity'?

IndianSummer

08-20-2003, 10:56 AM

Mediocrates : "... think your countrymen by and large would step over the dead bodies of Jewish children to get to their next hot meal..."

what do you base these opinions on? that europeans are racist? people everywhere are. i am an asian and know people from north africa/asia living in europe and the fact is that european societies, without exception are inclusivist and assimilative. even under the pressures of dramatic changes in national cultures and demographics, european countries continue to take in displaced people from all the major and minor conflict regions of the world. and these people are taken in regardless of their religious orientation. this is the mark of their tolerance and humanism.

can the same be said of the state of israel?

israel has consistently and resolutely refused to let displaced palestinian people from egypt and jordan return to palestine. what does that say about israel? the state of israel refuses to let tens of thousands of palestinians live in palestine and here you try to stamp europeans with the mark of intolerance?

shame on you.

Leon : "...There is not much point trying to speak on his (IndianSummer's) behalf. (He is a) real time waster..."

If you beleive that anyone who presents an opinion different from yours is wasting your time, i can only hope that the people of israel do not share your 'values'. if they are, then democracy in israel is certainly living on borrowed time.

Lowell : "...the moral equivalence drawn between Israel's defensive actions and the murderous bloodshed of the terrorists who beset her..."

what, pray, is so defensive about using helicopter gunships and tanks on civilians? tell us please, what is so defensive about israeli bulldozers running over peace activists?

what is so defensive about the imprisonment without trial and torture of thousands of palestinians without trial in israeli prisons?

please tell this insane lunatic, o venerable opressed one.

MichaelC

08-20-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
shame on you
No, shame on YOU for your ignorant style of trolling at this board. So far I have seen nothing but a search on your part for statements that you think you can cleverly tear apart. You offer nothing but criticism and you have a nasty tone to everything you post.

Get a life!

IndianSummer

08-20-2003, 11:38 AM

MichaelC : "...You (IndianSummer) offer nothing but criticism and you have a nasty tone to everything you post.

Get a life!..."

you try to shake off pointed questions like water off a duck's back. instead of enlightening me on my nasty tone and my non-existent life, could you be a little less kiddish and actually post responses to the questions raised?

as for me offering nothing but criticism, read my response to Leon in my last post. applies totally to you as well.

Mil

08-20-2003, 11:44 AM

Let the fun begin!!!!!!!!

Mediocrates

08-20-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
what do you base these opinions on? that europeans are racist? people everywhere are.

Facts, reality, history, current events and a constant stream of communication from family members who live there.

i am an asian and know people from north africa/asia living in europe and the fact is that european societies, without exception are inclusivist and assimilative.

Bully for you. Are you Jewish? No? Then you probably know nothing about antisemitism.

even under the pressures..... this is the mark of their tolerance and humanism....can the same be said of the state of israel?

Yes it can but you will deny it because you carry a boatload of hatred, bigotry and biases around with you.

israel has consistently and resolutely refused to let displaced palestinian people from egypt and jordan return to palestine. what does that say about israel? the state of israel refuses to let tens of thousands of palestinians live in palestine and here you try to stamp europeans with the mark of intolerance?

That's not even remotely associated with the truth or the facts. So darling, rip a page out of the play book you love to beat me over the head with and LEARN THE ACTUAL FACTS, thanks.

Lowell

08-20-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
[B]Lowell : "...the moral equivalence drawn between Israel's defensive actions and the murderous bloodshed of the terrorists who beset her..."

what, pray, is so defensive about using helicopter gunships and tanks on civilians? tell us please, what is so defensive about israeli bulldozers running over peace activists?

what is so defensive about the imprisonment without trial and torture of thousands of palestinians without trial in israeli jails?

please tell this insane lunatic, o venerable opressed one.

Where, pray, O drooling one, did you get this disinformation? Where, precisely, is it stated in any unbiased newspaper, radio or television reportage that Israel uses gunships against civilians? In what unbiased media has it been stated that Israel deliberately runs over 'peace activists' with bulldozers, or tortures thousands of 'Palestinian' prisoners? Such lies are not believed except by the brainwashed and credulous fools of the world, among which you include yourself. You are clearly a most unintelligent person: stick to cutting out your paper dolls and concern yourself no longer with matters so far above your mete of intellect. Nice motto but it doesn't fit you- true warriors know the truth.

IndianSummer

08-20-2003, 12:31 PM

Lowell : "...In what unbiased media has it been stated that Israel deliberately runs over 'peace activists' with bulldozers, or tortures thousands of 'Palestinian' prisoners..."

Please make an effort to disprove that you are a vegetable and click on the links below.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/03/107834.html

http://www.washington.historylink.org/output.cfm?file_id=5441

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2855263.stm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/112840_protestor17.shtml

http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,177426-1-9,00.html

but of course, all these media are biased precisely because they happen to report something you do not want to accept: the truth.

Lowell : "...You (IndianSummer) are clearly a most unintelligent person: stick to cutting out your paper dolls and concern yourself no longer with matters so far above your mete of intellect..."

but i want to learn. from you o venerable master with your head-in-the-texas-sand. learn how could a person be blind to the inhumanity he supports just because it fits the world-vision he's been preached of in his quaint little southern church.

Lowell : "...true warriors know the truth...."

could you be more lame? if you think that you can capture the essence of the lives of emotional and physical pain led by millions of people by the catch-line of a playstation2 game, you are a sad excuse for a human being indeed.

Mil

08-20-2003, 02:00 PM

Posted by IndianSummer:

what do you base these opinions on? that europeans are racist?

Yes, they are.

people everywhere are. i am an asian and know people from north africa/asia living in europe and the fact is that european societies, without exception are inclusivist and assimilative. even under the pressures of dramatic changes in national cultures and demographics, european countries continue to take in displaced people from all the major and minor conflict regions of the world. and these people are taken in regardless of their religious orientation. this is the mark of their tolerance and humanism.

No. It's the mark of European policy rather then any kind of cultural acceptance. They are only a few countries in the world that genuinly accept outsiders - and all these countries are immigrant countries. I know - I am from Europe.

can the same be said of the state of israel?

What does Israel have anything to do with that?

israel has consistently and resolutely refused to let displaced palestinian people from egypt and jordan return to palestine.

What's Palestine? The Mandated Palestine or the entire Palestine?

what does that say about israel?

Absolutely nothing given that you know the history of the region.

the state of israel refuses to let tens of thousands of palestinians live in palestine

Israel allows the Palestinians to live in the UN assigned partition of Palestine.
I didn't see any prove of it being otherwise.

and here you try to stamp europeans with the mark of intolerance?

Europeans are intollerant. They killed half of my family - for example. Just for being Jewish.

shame on you.

I personally will not blast you on the above simply because you don't know much about Europe. I do.

If you beleive that anyone who presents an opinion different from yours is wasting your time, i can only hope that the people of israel do not share your 'values'. if they are, then democracy in israel is certainly living on borrowed time.

Democracy in Israel is there to stay and is Israel's biggest weapon.

what, pray, is so defensive about using helicopter gunships andtanks on civilians? tell us please, what is so defensive about israeli bulldozers running over peace activists?

How many peace activists were killed by Israeli bulldozers? Any exact numbers? How many Palestinian civilians were killed by helicopter gunships and tanks? Numbers? Sorry to dissapoint you but the numbers are very small less then a few dozen.

what is so defensive about the imprisonment without trial and torture of thousands of palestinians without trial in israeli prisons?

Actually there are trials and they are not tortured. Unless you have prove otherwise?

please tell this insane lunatic, o venerable opressed one.

At least don't make up things you don't know.

Mil

08-20-2003, 02:05 PM

By the way that little crazy American peace activist run over by the bulldozer is Jewish so.....

Lowell

08-20-2003, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
Lowell : "...In what unbiased media has it been stated that Israel deliberately runs over 'peace activists' with bulldozers, or tortures thousands of 'Palestinian' prisoners..."

Please make an effort to disprove that you are a vegetable and click on the links below.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/03/107834.html

http://www.washington.historylink.org/output.cfm?file_id=5441

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2855263.stm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/112840_protestor17.shtml

http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,177426-1-9,00.html

but of course, all these media are biased precisely because they happen to report something you do not want to accept: the truth.

Lowell : "...You (IndianSummer) are clearly a most unintelligent person: stick to cutting out your paper dolls and concern yourself no longer with matters so far above your mete of intellect..."

but i want to learn. from you o venerable master with your head-in-the-texas-sand. learn how could a person be blind to the inhumanity he supports just because it fits the world-vision he's been preached of in his quaint little southern church.

Lowell : "...true warriors know the truth...."

could you be more lame? if you think that you can capture the essence of the lives of emotional and physical pain led by millions of people by the catch-line of a playstation2 game, you are a sad excuse for a human being indeed.

Go back to playing with your dull scissors and construction paper. I really can't be troubled with your third grade mentality. I do not believe you know or care anything whatever about the truth. Every single one of those links tells of poor Rachel Courie, who foolishly got too close to a behemoth earthmoving machine. Truly sad but to be expected if one gets too close to a dangerous machine. Where the proof the operator deliberately hit and mashed Miss Courie? What of your evidence for the other and far more serious allegations you've made- the gunships, the torture? You are a poseur- look it up.

MichaelC

08-20-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
MichaelC : "...You (IndianSummer) offer nothing but criticism and you have a nasty tone to everything you post.

Get a life!..."

you try to shake off pointed questions like water off a duck's back. instead of enlightening me on my nasty tone and my non-existent life, could you be a little less kiddish and actually post responses to the questions raised?

as for me offering nothing but criticism, read my response to Leon in my last post. applies totally to you as well.
If shrieking your invective from the public square is considered a mark of intelligence in the village from which you come, I have no doubt the neighbors consider you most wise.

Around here, we have different standards and the volume of one's voice is not among them. Every post you make at this site has been filled with your bile. You apparently have a sense of hatred for everyone here, so I ask you what, besides trolling, are you doing here?

NewsGuy

08-20-2003, 07:00 PM

Hey folks,

Please cut out the personal attacks.

Thanks.

Lowell

08-20-2003, 07:16 PM

Sorry, NewsGuy. I'll make an effort to not respond in kind.

MichaelC

08-20-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Hey folks,

Please cut out the personal attacks.

Thanks.
Can you show us a post by Indian Summer that hasn't contained one?

Belgium

08-20-2003, 10:17 PM

So the people of Europe are racist? It seems that some of you don't know much about Europe if they dare say that all Europeans are racist. This hatred of some of you is racism.

Lowell

08-21-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
So the people of Europe are racist? It seems that some of you don't know much about Europe if they dare say that all Europeans are racist. This hatred of some of you is racism.

Not all, Belgium, but enough to justify the charge. And not racism, per se, against Africans, Asians, etc. but against Jews as a people. Europe has a long sorry History of anti-Judaism policies and practices going back in time to the ancient Romans. It is certainly not your fault but you cannot simply deny it- virtually every Jew in the world lost relatives and friends in the Holocaust in Europe. But even before that Europe was an extremely intolerant place for Jews- the Spanish expulsion, the Russian pogroms... there is no end to the hatred.

Mediocrates

08-21-2003, 09:31 AM

Let me say it this way. Many of my relatives ran from Europe when they had a chance. Some of them literally at gunpoint. They managed to wash up in many other places where today their decendants live to tell the tale. For those who did not, they went up the chimney. For the few who returned they live a modern day version of life not that distant from the ghetto and the shetl where they are on occasion verbally and physically assaulted for daring to go in public obviously Jewish and appearing as such.

There are really only 2 places in Europe where there remain enough Jews for anyone to say that racism DOES NOT exist: England and France. Everywhere else the populace is talking smack and old hatreds about "Those Jews" which I dare any of those people to actually point out. Because there aren't any or nearly so. So it becomes a kind of pure bigotry, a pure hatred of Jews that exists in the near total absence of Jews. For England and France, collectively the home of about 1 million claiming to be Jewish then one of you can say whether you think antisemitism exists or not. And when you do consider that if you are not Jewish yourself and therefore not the target then you have almost nothing of any value to say on the subject anyway. Sorry but that's just reality.

Belgium

08-21-2003, 10:09 AM

Well, the Holocaust. I do not deny this, I know that more than 6 million Jews died in the gaschambers of the Nazi's. I'm sorry that half of your family died there.
I don't speak about "those Jews", you seem to think that whole Europe is anti-Semite. Well, I'm not.
I think that every word spoken is of use in a discussion, it is like saying "you don't mive in Europe, you don't know how it is like, so don't talk about it". There wouldn't be much people then talking about Europe.

Lowell

08-21-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Belgium
Well, the Holocaust. I do not deny this, I know that more than 6 million Jews died in the gaschambers of the Nazi's. I'm sorry that half of your family died there.
I don't speak about "those Jews", you seem to think that whole Europe is anti-Semite. Well, I'm not.
I think that every word spoken is of use in a discussion, it is like saying "you don't mive in Europe, you don't know how it is like, so don't talk about it". There wouldn't be much people then talking about Europe.

I know you aren't anti-Semitic, Belgium, or you wouldn't come to this Forum to discuss things.
You have a point about the second part- in the US many African-Americans claim that only African-Americans can teach African-American History... does Mediocrates mean that only Jews can discuss Jewish troubles and tribulations? That would eliminate every non-Jew from this Forum. :)

Mediocrates

08-21-2003, 01:06 PM

No what I mean is that bigots don't get to frame the terms of the argument. Klansmen have nothing at all to say about whether blacks have any reasonable right to be offended. Neo Nazis have nothing to say about whether their words should offend me or not. That's my point. There is not one single godamn thing that anyone who stands around watching a Rabbi get beat down in the street can say to me about antisemitism.

That's my only point. You see it's not my place to absolve them of their stain. Sadly the only people who can do that are dead.

Now do I think all Europeans are racist? No of course not. Is it even a great number? Probably not. Do I think that being (generically) white Protestant middle class and largely sheltered from the world give someone special insight into what being a minority that has barely climbed up out of the grave and slavery in living memory means for day to day life and the silent interactions one must suffer on a daily basis? No I don't.

It's like the old joke - you want to legalize drugs then make sure men have to give birth.

Lowell

08-21-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No what I mean is that bigots don't get to frame the terms of the argument. Klansmen have nothing at all to say about whether blacks have any reasonable right to be offended. Neo Nazis have nothing to say about whether their words should offend me or not. That's my point. There is not one single godamn thing that anyone who stands around watching a Rabbi get beat down in the street can say to me about antisemitism.

That's my only point. You see it's not my place to absolve them of their stain. Sadly the only people who can do that are dead.

Now do I think all Europeans are racist? No of course not. Is it even a great number? Probably not. Do I think that being (generically) white Protestant middle class and largely sheltered from the world give someone special insight into what being a minority that has barely climbed up out of the grave and slavery in living memory means for day to day life and the silent interactions one must suffer on a daily basis? No I don't.

It's like the old joke - you want to legalize drugs then make sure men have to give birth.

Ah, that clarifies it. Thanks. I happen to agree.

Belgium

08-21-2003, 10:12 PM

Well, this is difficult to understand.

Leon

08-22-2003, 01:36 AM

Indian Summer,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...There is not much point trying to speak on his (IndianSummer's) behalf...If you beleive that anyone who presents an opinion different from yours is wasting your time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said that and I never believed that. What I'm saying is: You are saying one thing in plain language and he is attempting to speak on your behalf by interpreting that into something which is quite the contrary.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(He is a) real time waster..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never said 'you' are a real time waster. What I said to Belgium was: it is a real time waster trying to interpret what you are saying into something which is quite the contrary.

I too speak in plain language. Trying to put words into my mouth (e.g adding your own brackets with your own words), misrepresenting everything and placing it entirley out of context, is another time waster. Proceeding to use all this to determine my set 'values' and what I 'do' or 'dont' believe in doesnt help either and only servs to de-legitmise your argument. This only shows that you are a quick judge of character and thus a lousy one at that.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i can only hope that the people of israel do not share your 'values'. if they are, then democracy in israel is certainly living on borrowed time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can only hope that one can never be so bitter and patronising, as the above quote just goes to show.

Leon

08-22-2003, 02:11 AM

what, pray, is so defensive about using helicopter gunships and tanks on civilians? tell us please, what is so defensive about israeli bulldozers running over peace activists?

The IDF uses helicopter gunships and tanks to combat tterrorists. Its quite simple really- the IDF is simply doing a job which the PA has refuses to do (thus breaking its commitment to all past and present treaties- Olso & road map.) Israel is legally granted this right by the Geneva convention. Under the same convention, any group which murders innocent civilians and than hides behind innocent civilians and large population centers (therefore breaking all the rules of conventional war) is thus ulitmatley responsible for any civilian deaths.

Since when were helicopter gunships and tanks used against civilians? Like I said, If you make the claim that the Israelis purposly target civilians please porvide evidence. If one makes such allegations than evidence which goes beyond reasonable doubt is expected without conditon. So far you have provided none.
It has been proven that when fighting wars, Israel is more humane than say than Nato which bombed Serbia to the ground the U.S in Iraq and Afghanistan or Russia in Grozny.

what is so defensive about the imprisonment without trial and torture of thousands of palestinians without trial in israeli prisons?

Simple. These Palestinians have all been involved in terror attacks against Israeli civilians and are locked behind bars for security reasons (to prevent them from continuing their murderous activities). They are treated fairly and have access to lawyers- proving that their condiitons are better than those held by the U.S at Guntanomo Bay or terrorists held in Indian Jails!

Leon

08-22-2003, 02:32 AM

I don't speak about "those Jews", you seem to think that whole Europe is anti-Semite. Well, I'm not.

Of coarse. As far as I know, no one here is accusing you of been an antisemite and if they are than they are just plain fools.

A group of forum members here (including myself) merely disagree with some of your argument. And so what? thats the whole point of having a discussion forum :)
No accusations of anti-semtisim or bigotry. Anyone who does that deserves to be on the ignore list.

I lived in Europe for two years and I was very impressed with the European attitude to life and culture. The Europeans have genuinly expressed remore and regret over the Holocaust. What really shocks me though, is the EU's willingless to embrace and appease terrorists. If say, enlightened countries like Germany or Belgium express their geniune sorrow for what happened and than embrace the likes of Yasser Arafat, than this natrually sends alarm bells ringing in other parts of the civilised world and European motives are once again questioned.

Lowell

08-22-2003, 11:37 AM

Leon, I don't know how to break this to you but I think IndianSummer went bye-bye. ;)

IndianSummer

08-22-2003, 01:20 PM

Lowell : "...Leon, I don't know how to break this to you but I think IndianSummer went bye-bye..."

No, Lowell, i'm still around. been busy with some stuff.

watch out for the comeback...;)

MichaelC

08-22-2003, 02:42 PM

OK Lowell, I'm holding you personally responsible for this!!!

IndianSummer

08-22-2003, 03:06 PM

hee hee...

Lowell

08-22-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by MichaelC
OK Lowell, I'm holding you personally responsible for this!!!

What did I do- speak of the imp? He did go bye-bye, for a while.

Donna

08-22-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
What did I do- speak of the imp? He did go bye-bye, for a while.

The next time, sprinkle some salt and let us in the circle BEFORE you speak the name!

;)

Lowell

08-22-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Donna
The next time, sprinkle some salt and let us in the circle BEFORE you speak the name!

;)

Oh, I did but now I must seal the circle with more salt. You should have brought a few packets for yourself. :)

MichaelC

08-22-2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Oh, I did but now I must seal the circle with more salt. You should have brought a few packets for yourself. :)
Is this some sort of Wiccan ritual you two have going here?

IndianSummer

08-23-2003, 09:03 AM

heck...wrong thread., @#$%.

Lowell

08-23-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by MichaelC
Is this some sort of Wiccan ritual you two have going here?

Wiccan ritual? Not at all- merely a well known folk remedy type imp repellent, sort of like Rat-Away...you know, that stuff you sprinkle around your abode to keep rodents away. Well, salt has similar efficacious effects upon imps. Here within my circle of salt I can observe the imp without it being able to observe me, kind of like a hunter can observe the wild and skittish fauna from a blind.

Leon

08-24-2003, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Lowell
Leon, I don't know how to break this to you but I think IndianSummer went bye-bye. ;)

Yeh, well as you can see he just made his big time come back. ;)

Lowell

08-24-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Leon
Yeh, well as you can see he just made his big time come back. ;)

Some comeback, only to go bye-bye again.

IndianSummer

08-24-2003, 09:59 AM

lol.

yeahh. i'm hardly getting any time off from stuff these days. only some time for mail messages, that's it.

in any case, enjoy the time off, guys. i'll see you guys around sooner than later...

Johnny Yuma

08-24-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
lol.

yeahh. i'm hardly getting any time off from stuff these days. only some time for mail messages, that's it.

in any case, enjoy the time off, guys. i'll see you guys around sooner than later...

I must commend you on your command of English; I mean American English slang, that is. You have a remarkable penchant for it, for a native Indian. As a matter of fact, I have worked closely, for many years, with several of your expatriated brethren. They have nowhere near your fluency. Tell us, what is the epistomology of your knowledge? Were you born in India and spent the bulk of your youth in the United States, or were you educated in the United States? How did you become such a cunning linguist?

IndianSummer

08-24-2003, 07:45 PM

Johnny Yuma : "...I must commend you on your command of English; I mean American English slang, that is. You have a remarkable penchant for it, for a native Indian. As a matter of fact, I have worked closely, for many years, with several of your expatriated brethren. They have nowhere near your fluency. Tell us, what is the epistomology of your knowledge? Were you born in India and spent the bulk of your youth in the United States, or were you educated in the United States? How did you become such a cunning linguist?..."

thanks for the compliment, johnny. :) you are too kind.

i have never been to the United States. in fact, i have never been out of india, though i would love to travel all over the world. that's my idea of having an amazing time...travelling through different countries, immersing myself in different cultures, hanging out with people who probably have a different world-view than i do...and thereby learning from them. but so far in my 21 years of existence i have never travelled outside india.

would love to travel to israel sometime. i've heard that clubs in tel-aviv there beat clubs in bombay by miles. hee hee ;)

as for my usage of 'american slang', i've haven't noticed myself doing that. maybe it's a subconcious thing.

i've grown up on american authors like fitzgerald, hemingway, faulkner, casey and mccullers, together with indian and russian literature. but my hold on hindi and russian isn't as close to my ability to express myself in english.

i have no idea why the other indians you interacted weren't fluent with the language. most indians aren't fluent in hindi either. it's a pity. might be because as a nation we haven't taken to literature.

i think that the absence of a genuine following for good literature in india is the reason why we have trouble formulating a national conciousness for ourselves. in the west i beleive and most notable in russia, literature contributed greatly to the development of a national outlook and cohesiveness amongst people. i beleive that the writings of pushkin, gorky, tolstoy and chekov have done as much (if not more) than anything else to build a true russian identity.

an indian renaissance in literature is awaited...

Johnny Yuma

08-24-2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
Johnny Yuma : "...I must commend you on your command of English; I mean American English slang, that is. You have a remarkable penchant for it, for a native Indian. As a matter of fact, I have worked closely, for many years, with several of your expatriated brethren. They have nowhere near your fluency. Tell us, what is the epistomology of your knowledge? Were you born in India and spent the bulk of your youth in the United States, or were you educated in the United States? How did you become such a cunning linguist?..."

thanks for the compliment, johnny. :) you are too kind.

i have never been to the United States. in fact, i have never been out of india, though i would love to travel all over the world. that's my idea of having an amazing time...travelling through different countries, immersing myself in different cultures, hanging out with people who probably have a different world-view than i do...and thereby learning from them. but so far in my 21 years of existence i have never travelled outside india.

would love to travel to israel sometime. i've heard that clubs in tel-aviv there beat clubs in bombay by miles. hee hee ;)

as for my usage of 'american slang', i've haven't noticed myself doing that. maybe it's a subconcious thing.

i've grown up on american authors like fitzgerald, hemingway, faulkner, casey and mccullers, together with indian and russian literature. but my hold on hindi and russian isn't as close to my ability to express myself in english.

i have no idea why the other indians you interacted weren't fluent with the language. most indians aren't fluent in hindi either. it's a pity. might be because as a nation we haven't taken to literature.

i think that the absence of a genuine following for good literature in india is the reason why we have trouble formulating a national conciousness for ourselves. in the west i beleive and most notable in russia, literature contributed greatly to the development of a national outlook and cohesiveness amongst people. i beleive that the writings of pushkin, gorky, tolstoy and chekov have done as much (if not more) than anything else to build a true russian identity.

an indian renaissance in literature is awaited...

You think so? Why thank you.

Say... I've been meaning to ask you... did you have a birthday recently? You said you were 21 years old. :confused:

Another question....

Over at Pakistani Defense Forum (http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=15921&hl=&view=findpost&p=216180) I could have sworn you told us you were a 20-year old naval cadet at the NDA, in Kharagwasla.

Lowell

08-24-2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Pssst, Johnny, 'tis an imp... neither a 'he' nor a 'she', neither old nor young, and assuredly not human. Imps are shape shifters and poseurs. It can't see me but I can see it.

Mil

08-24-2003, 11:41 PM

Posted by IndianSummer:

American authors like fitzgerald, hemingway, faulkner, casey and mccullers, together with indian and russian literature. but my hold on hindi and russian isn't as close to my ability to express myself in english.

i beleive that the writings of pushkin, gorky, tolstoy and chekov have done as much (if not more) than anything else to build a true russian identity.

That's over-impressive!!!! I prefer Czhekhov myself :) I recommend you read Voinovich - if you didn't yet and stay away from Solzenitsyn.

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 09:07 AM

Johnny Yuma : "...Over at Pakistani Defense Forum I could have sworn you told us you were a 20-year old naval cadet at the NDA, in Kharagwasla..."

I WAS on SSC in the army Johnny. Short Service Commission. I graduated from the RIMA at the age of 19 and went into the army on SSC. SSC officers start off at the troop level and move up to Lt level (if they have been in a combat area). the SSC typically lasts for 1.5 - 6 years after which soldiers are decommisioned so that they could go to college and get into the civilian sector or they have the option of getting into the NDA. i got out after the minimum limit. wanted to go through regular cadet officer training here and then go back into the armed forces. except that this time it's going to be the navy. maybe...if i can graduate! LOL.

if you look at both my profiles in here and at pakistanidefence.com, you will know that i wasn't trying to hide anything.

if there was something i was trying to hide at pakistanidefence.com was my having seen some duty in kashmir. i was hoping to have some constructive discussions there and i felt that disclosing my recent past might make that impossible, as far as pakistanis on the forum went.

it is another matter that i was not able to have any. i felt that i was able to raise a few points without letting my obvious pro-india bias get in the way, but the guys there were just ready to ban indians without listening to what we had to say.

in any case, i got really fed up with their abuse and opinions which routinely sounded like it had been stated on pakistan TV.

i left the forum after posting a specific message to the moderators: "Ban All Indians". i let them know what i thought of their blatantly anti-free speech attitude. i bet i must have been banned as well.

so i hope this answers your questions.

and yes, i did turn 21 last month. 26th of july. i can still remember that chocolate cream cake... :rolleyes:

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 09:16 AM

Mil : "...I prefer Czhekhov myself I recommend you read Voinovich - if you didn't yet and stay away from Solzenitsyn..."

Chekov's (pardon my mis-spellings. i don't know why but Czhekhov's books all over India go by the name of 'Chekov') genius is dazzling. apart from having read most of his writings earlier, i was rading his 'collection of plays volume 1' recently. some really excellent stuff in there! :)

I haven't read anything by Voinovich. i'll look for his works next time i get to go to bombay. thanks!

haven't read anything by Solzenitsyn except for 'Gulag Archipelago'. i thought it was okie-dokie...except that Pushkin and Chekov seem to be far more than just ok writers...i've read their writings over and over again and i just can't seem to get enough! total genius.

But yeahh, i'll definitely look for Voinovich next time i go on a book-hunt. Please let me know about any other author you might want me to try out. thanks again. :)

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 09:33 AM

Lowell : "...Pssst, Johnny, 'tis an imp... neither a 'he' nor a 'she', neither old nor young, and assuredly not human. Imps are shape shifters and poseurs. It can't see me but I can see it..."

very eloquently put, Lowell. now, pray, why edit such excellent prose ? let it be on display for the world to see.

what a waste of a piece of literary genius.

Lowell

08-25-2003, 11:14 AM

Dear Dairy, today is my third within this charmed circle of salt. My provisions are holding up well and there is ample water, though it does have a taste of salt. The imp prowls about by day and night, occasionally emitting sounds in a dulcet tone, as though it seeks to beguile me from my hiding. I shall not be lyred by flattery, I warrant!

Donna

08-25-2003, 03:53 PM

Try singing some show tunes. Some of those things can drive nearly anybody/thing away!

:p

Originally posted by Lowell
Dear Dairy, today is my third within this charmed circle of salt. My provisions are holding up well and there is ample water, though it does have a taste of salt. The imp prowls about by day and night, occasionally emitting sounds in a dulcet tone, as though it seeks to beguile me from my hiding. I shall not be lyred by flattery, I warrant!

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Donna
Try singing some show tunes. Some of those things can drive nearly anybody/thing away!

:p

"Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone a comedy, tonight!"

“pantaloons and tunics! Courtesans and eunuchs! Funerals and chases! Baritones and basses! Panderers! Philanderers! Cupidity! Timidity! Mistakes! Fakes! Rhymes! Mimes! Tumblers! Grumblers! Fumblers! Bumblers! No royal curse, no Trojan horse, and a happy ending, of course!”

“everybody ought to have a maid! . . . Pattering through the attic, Chattering in the cellar, Clattering in the kitchen, Flattering in the bedroom, . . . Jiggling in the living room, Giggling in the dining-room, Wiggling in the other rooms, Puttering all around the house!”

All from "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum". (My personal favorite)

Lowell

08-25-2003, 07:22 PM

Bravo, bravo! What a noble troubadour!

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 07:37 PM

A bunch of brainwashed AK-toting jehadis, severe instructors with threats of summary marches in tow, imprisoned minds with a lot to write but little to say. this summer can take everything but one deadly blow...

a texan dose of prose.

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
A bunch of brainwashed AK-toting jehadis, severe instructors with threats of summary marches in tow. imprisoned minds with a lot to write but little to say. this summer can take all of them at once...

but no, not a texan dose of prose.

What are you smoking?

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 07:51 PM

merely stating that it's time for the summer to walk away. an exit stage left. now you know what i'm 'smoking'.

rejoice.

Lowell

08-25-2003, 08:04 PM

Dear Dairy, the wondrous singing of the mysterious troubador and the invisibility conferred upon me by the salt have worked their magic! The imp, frustrated in it's quest, concedes defeat... soon I can finally emerge from this charmed circle and, Lot like, sojourn once more in the free air, and drink untainted water again... blessed deliverance!

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
merely stating that it's time for the summer to walk away. an exit stage left. now you know what i'm 'smoking'.

rejoice.

.... and you're wanting to know where your Oscar is, I suppose?

IndianSummer

08-25-2003, 08:09 PM

Johnny Yuma : "...and you're wanting to know where your Oscar is, I suppose..."

Not really. I already know where it's at: it's stuffed up your backside.

Keep it.

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
Johnny Yuma : "...and you're wanting to know where your Oscar is, I suppose..."

Not really. I already know where it's at: it's stuffed up your backside.

Keep it.

It's not a backside. It's an ass. And I'm just keeping it warm for you....

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Dear Dairy, the wondrous singing of the mysterious troubador and the invisibility conferred upon me by the salt have worked their magic! The imp, frustrated in it's quest, concedes defeat... soon I can finally emerge from this charmed circle and, Lot like, sojourn once more in the free air, and drink untainted water again... blessed deliverance!

Come forth and reveal thy loathsome self!

Johnny Yuma

08-25-2003, 08:59 PM

Leon

08-26-2003, 02:39 AM

26th July? Day before my birthday. turned 21 as well!

mmmmmmmmmm, chocolate cake cream

Leon

08-26-2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by IndianSummer
Johnny Yuma : "...and you're wanting to know where your Oscar is, I suppose..."

Not really. I already know where it's at: it's stuffed up your backside.

Keep it.

Oh are you leaving? I was kind of hoping we could plan a joint party for next year? Be sure to make your big time come back by then!!

Donna

08-26-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
"Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone a comedy, tonight!"

“pantaloons and tunics! Courtesans and eunuchs! Funerals and chases! Baritones and basses! Panderers! Philanderers! Cupidity! Timidity! Mistakes! Fakes! Rhymes! Mimes! Tumblers! Grumblers! Fumblers! Bumblers! No royal curse, no Trojan horse, and a happy ending, of course!”

“everybody ought to have a maid! . . . Pattering through the attic, Chattering in the cellar, Clattering in the kitchen, Flattering in the bedroom, . . . Jiggling in the living room, Giggling in the dining-room, Wiggling in the other rooms, Puttering all around the house!”

All from "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum". (My personal favorite)

You know, that's kinda catchy.

Johnny Yuma

08-26-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Donna
You know, that's kinda catchy.

Which song? Everybody Ought To Have A Maid?

Lowell

08-26-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Dear Dairy, the wondrous singing of the mysterious troubador and the invisibility conferred upon me by the salt have worked their magic! The imp, frustrated in it's quest, concedes defeat... soon I can finally emerge from this charmed circle and, Lot like, sojourn once more in the free air, and drink untainted water again... blessed deliverance!

Come forth and reveal thy loathsome self!

Here I am. Dammit, I'm not loathsome! The imp is!

Johnny Yuma

08-26-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Here I am. Dammit, I'm not loathsome! The imp is!

I know you aren't fair spirit, but the words brought you forth, and I hold you in the circle with my wand and this here bag of Trix....

Donna

08-26-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Which song? Everybody Ought To Have A Maid?

No no...sing the one with pantaloons. Have to respect a song that uses "pantaloons" in such a carefree, zippy way.

...cupidity, timidity...hum, hummm...

Johnny Yuma

08-26-2003, 05:45 PM

All The Madmen by David Bowie

Day after day
They send my friends away
To mansions cold and grey
To the far side of town
Where the thin men stalk the streets
While the sane stay underground

Day after day
They tell me I can go
They tell me I can blow
To the far side of town
Where it's pointless to be high
'Cause it's such a long way down

So I tell them that
I can fly, I will scream, I will break my arm
I will do me harm

Here I stand, foot in hand, talking to my wall
I'm not quite right at all...am I?

Don't set me free, I'm as heavy as can be
Just my librium and me
And my E.S.T. makes three

'Cause I'd rather stay here
With all the madmen
Than perish with the sadmen roaming free
And I'd rather play here
With all the madmen
For I'm quite content they're all as sane
As me

(Where can the horizon lie
When a nation hides
Its organic minds
In a cellar...dark and grim
They must be very dim)

Day after day
They take some brain away
Then turn my face around
To the far side of town
And tell me that it's real
Then ask me how I feel

Here I stand, foot in hand, talking to my wall
I'm not quite right at all

Don't set me free, I'm as helpless as can be
My libido's split on me
Gimme some good 'ole lobotomy

'Cause I'd rather stay here
With all the madmen
Than perish with the sadmen
Roaming free
And I'd rather play here
With all the madmen
For I'm quite content
They're all as sane as me

Lowell

08-26-2003, 05:58 PM

Love that song... Trix, huh? I'm mollified!

Johnny Yuma

08-26-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Love that song... Trix, huh? I'm mollified!

Me too. And yes, Trix, 'cause ye can't have me Lucky Charms. And I'm glad you're mollified!

Amember this one?

Solemn faced
The village settles down
Undetected by the stars
And the hangman plays the mandolin before he goes to sleep
And the last thing on his mind
Is the Wild Eyed Boy imprisoned
'Neath the covered wooden shaft
Folds the rope
Into its bag
Blows his pipe of smolders
Blankets smoke into the room
And the day will end for some
As the night begins for one

Staring through the message in his eyes
Lies a solitary son
From the mountain called Freecloud
Where the eagle dare not fly
And the patience in his sigh
Gives no indication
For the townsmen to decide
So the village Dreadful yawns
Pronouncing gross diversion
As the label for the dog
Oh "It's the madness in his eyes"
As he breaks the night to cry:

"It's really Me
Really You
And really Me
It's so hard for us to really be
Really You
And really Me
You'll lose me though I'm always really free"

And the mountain moved its eyes
To the world of realize
Where the snow had saved a place
For the Wild Eyed Boy from Freecloud

And the village dreadful cried
As the rope began to rise
For the smile stayed on the face
Of the wide-eyed boy from Freecloud

And the women once proud
Clutched the heart of the crowd
As the boulders smashed down from the mountain's hand
And the Magic in the stare
Of the Wild Eyed Boy said
"Stop, Freecloud
They won't think to cut me down"
But the cottages fell
Like a playing card hell
And the tears on the face
Of the Wise Boy
Came tumbling down
To the rumbling ground
And the missionary mystic of peace/love
Stumbled to cry among the clouds
Kicking back the pebbles
From the Freecloud mountain
Track.

Donna

08-27-2003, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I know you aren't fair spirit, but the words brought you forth, and I hold you in the circle with my wand and this here bag of Trix....

Silly Rabbi... everyone knows Trix are loaded with preservatives, sugar, and artificial colors.

So hand them right over to me and no one will get hurt. They're part of my complete breakfast.

Here Lowell, you can have this shredded cardboard loaded with fiber that I accidentally picked up the other day. You may need a bag of sugar to get it down though.

:p

danholo

08-27-2003, 06:52 AM

I think the rabbit has been discriminated enough over the years. Give him some Trix already. I always hated those commercials and always will.

Donna

08-27-2003, 06:57 AM

I always felt sorry for him.

Wile E. Coyote got a bum deal too, poor skinny fella.

Originally posted by danholo
I think the rabbit has been discriminated enough over the years. Give him some Trix already. I always hated those commercials and always will.

Lowell

08-27-2003, 11:52 AM

surrender my Trix! I want to be preserved by the nice preservatives. Much better than formaldehyde or cardboard, and tastier!That's another great song, wizard Yuma!

Johnny Yuma

08-27-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
surrender my Trix! I want to be preserved by the nice preservatives. Much better than formaldehyde or cardboard, and tastier!That's another great song, wizard Yuma!

THIS... is a great one.

Wake up you sleepy head
Put on some clothes, shake up your bed
Put another log on the fire for me
I've made some breakfast and coffee
Look out my window and what do I see
A crack in the sky and a hand reaching down to me
All the nightmares came today
And it looks as though they're here to stay

What are we coming to
No room for me, no fun for you
I think about a world to come
Where the books were found by the Golden ones
Written in pain, written in awe
By a puzzled man who questioned
What we were here for
All the strangers came today
And it looks as though they're here to stay

Oh You Pretty Things :)
Don't you know you're driving your
Mamas and Papas insane.......

Lowell

08-27-2003, 09:09 PM

Damn, you're right that's a great one. Made me stop munching Trix for a while...!

kulluke23

08-31-2003, 04:48 AM

What is "Trix"?

Donna

08-31-2003, 04:36 PM

It's a breakfast cereal.

http://theimaginaryworld.com/box1240.jpg

Originally posted by kulluke23
What is "Trix"?

Johnny Yuma

08-31-2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by kulluke23
What is "Trix"?

Trix "are" for kidz.

Lowell

09-01-2003, 06:03 AM

And Lucky Charms isn't? Don't listen to them, kulluke23- Trix is great tasting and provides the minimum daily nutrition requirement for a sugar loaded breakfast cereal... it's much better than the cardboard the grown ups pretend they like.

Johnny Yuma

09-01-2003, 02:37 PM

kulluke23, as a person from Belgium, do you feel qualified to be a judge of the rest of the world, and, if so, please tell us what makes you feel that way? If you want to start off with something easy to judge, start with which is the better; Trix or Lucky Charms. Since Trix are for kidz, and Lucky Charms are magically delicious, should the people who developed these be held responsible for the costs incurred because of those incorrigable sugar consuming genetic experiments gone terribly awry in the supermarkets?

Lowell

09-01-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
kulluke23, as a person from Belgium, do you feel qualified to be a judge of the rest of the world, and, if so, please tell us what makes you feel that way? If you want to start off with something easy to judge, start with which is the better; Trix or Lucky Charms. Since Trix are for kidz, and Lucky Charms are magically delicious, should the people who developed these be held responsible for the costs incurred because of those incorrigable sugar consuming genetic experiments gone terribly awry in the supermarkets?

Who you calling a genetic experiment, Yuma?

kulluke23, to assist you in your deliberations I herewith present the information you need:

Trix vs. Lucky Charms
http://www.lavasurfer.com/cereal-generalmills.html

Johnny Yuma

09-01-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Who you calling a genetic experiment, Yuma?

kulluke23, to assist you in your deliberations I herewith present the information you need:

Trix vs. Lucky Charms
http://www.lavasurfer.com/cereal-generalmills.html

Amicus Curiae?

Lowell

09-01-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Amicus Curiae?

Of course not. Get your terminology straight, Yuma, or I'll slap you with a big lawsuit and the Belgian courts will try it.

Definition: Latin term meaning "friend of the court". The name for a brief filed with the court by someone who is not a party to the case.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/amicus.htm

Johnny Yuma

09-01-2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Of course not. Get your terminology straight, Yuma, or I'll slap you with a big lawsuit and the Belgian courts will try it.

Definition: Latin term meaning "friend of the court". The name for a brief filed with the court by someone who is not a party to the case.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossary/legal/amicus.htm

I think you answered my question well enough..... I left off "brief", for a reason. Your witness....

Lowell

09-01-2003, 08:52 PM

Your Honor, I'd like to present my first witness, an internationally recognized expert on breakfast cereals... Mr. Johnny Yuma, who recommended Trix to me. My second witness will be called after the first, natch.

Belgium

09-02-2003, 10:05 AM

Nice...

Lowell

09-02-2003, 11:03 AM

Actually it is. We wish Belgium, the nation, to adjudicate our small dispute, viz Trix vs. Lucky Charms, and it is entirely possible that there will be other and larger matters for Belgium, the nation, to decide. All decisions of the judges are final, although of course the loser, e.g. Lucky Charms, can appeal. I believe that Belgium, the nation, uses a three judge panel and you, kulluke23 and one other are the panel. I think there is another Belgian around here somewhere...

kulluke23

09-02-2003, 11:19 AM

The other Belgian is Motti with his petition.

Johnny Yuma

09-02-2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Lowell
Your Honor, I'd like to present my first witness, an internationally recognized expert on breakfast cereals... Mr. Johnny Yuma, who recommended Trix to me. My second witness will be called after the first, natch.

Please explain to the judges that they cannot use their personal knowledge or feelings in rendering their decision, but, must rule only on the evidence submitted to the court. And while you're at it, request that the court recuse itself from the case, because in Belgium they can suspend the separation of powers with impunity and deny any demurrer or motion without opposition; in point of fact, act as an officer of the executive branch, which would be a violation under the separation of powers doctrine, if they followed it.

In other words, I don't want Belgium judging $hit.... (I can never find my "giving them the finger" smiley, when I need it.)

Lowell

09-02-2003, 07:36 PM

Oh man... and here I thought you wanted to get back to the topic of the thread, namely, the Belgians as the world's judge. OK, I was simply going along with you and providing an opportunity for the Belgians on this forum to give their assessments and judgements of different things. Scr3w the Trix vs. Lucky Charms schtick, I wanted real substance and real discussion on this thread... but all you, Mr. Yuma, can say now is 'Up Belgium'.

motti

09-03-2003, 07:28 AM

Indeed i'm a belgian jew.
Now this the law against genocides exists already since 1992 and was made to be able to judge the rewandese genocide (rewanda has been a colony of Belgium).
But some (extreme) left groups like the AEL from Abu Jahjah (who is btw a lebanese hezbolah fighter who became the belgian nationality through fraude) found in this law a way to dihonour democratic countries like the US and Israel.A member of this party which is aslo lawyer started procedures against Sharon,Bush sr etc..
I'm am happy that the law has been 'de facto' canceled.

But according to me there is no democratic country where there is separations of powers since most politician are lawyers!!

Belgium

09-03-2003, 08:52 AM

Yes, indeed, some have abused the law. In fact Belgium had a mandate in Rwanda, it wasn't a colony.

motti

09-03-2003, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Belgium
Yes, indeed, some have abused the law. In fact Belgium had a mandate in Rwanda, it wasn't a colony.

Sorry to tell you,but Rwanda was a belgian colony until 1962.
Just like Burundi and Congo were belgian colonies.But you're right to say that Belgian troops had a peace mandate in rwanda.

Here you have the proof:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rw.html

In 1959, three years before independence from Belgium , the majority ethnic group, the Hutus, overthrew the ruling Tutsi king. Over the next several years, thousands of Tutsis were killed, and some 150,000 driven into exile in neighboring countries. The children of these exiles later formed a rebel group, the Rwandan Patriotic Front, and began a civil war in 1990. The war, along with several political and economic upheavals, exacerbated ethnic tensions, culminating in April 1994 in the genocide of roughly 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus. The Tutsi rebels defeated the Hutu regime and ended the killing in July 1994, but approximately 2 million Hutu refugees - many fearing Tutsi retribution - fled to neighboring Burundi, Tanzania, Uganda, and Zaire. Since then, most of the refugees have returned to Rwanda. Despite substantial international assistance and political reforms - including Rwanda's first local elections in March 1999 - the country continues to struggle to boost investment and agricultural output and to foster reconciliation. A series of massive population displacements, a nagging Hutu extremist insurgency, and Rwandan involvement in two wars over the past four years in the neighboring DROC continue to hinder Rwanda's efforts.