Free at last !!

[Ophra]

Gaza withdrawal first battle in war for Israel's identity
By Amos Oz

The evacuation of Gaza Strip settlements is not just a struggle over the question of the future of the territories. At the very core, the pullout is the first big battle on the question of religion and state.

They have their own dream. The first stage is the "whole land of Israel," filled wall-to-wall with Jews-only towns.

True, Palestinians and Thai workers can come in to do the dirty work, but no more.

The second stage is to transform Israel into a halachic state', a country ruled by Jewish religious law. Elections, the Knesset, the government and the courts may continue to function, but settler rabbis will decide just what issues are appropriate for these bodies to decide, and what issues are too "holy" and important to be left to the people and their elected officials.

In their dream world, there is no place for secular Israel: Its culture is not culture, its values are not values, its opinions are not opinions.

In the eyes of the settlers, we are all poor, underprivileged children who never had the chance for a Jewish education. In their dream, our task is to become religious and to join them, or at least not to stand in the way while they bring the messiah.

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/01082004/615767/JRL162_wa.jpg
Real pain - just like they've caused Israel (Photo: AP)

We must nullify ourselves, and in return, they will hug us, sweetly, of course, and with lots and lots of brotherly love.

But if we refuse, the brotherly love and the hugs will go out the window, and we will become little more than traitorous leftists or Nazis.

Free people in our own land

But we non-religious Israelis also have a dream. We want to live in an enlightened, open and just country, not in some messianic, rabbinic monarchy, and not in the whole land of Israel. We came here to be a free people in our own land.

To be a free people means each person is entitled to choose which parts of Jewish tradition are important to him, and which to leave behind. It means to have the freedom to run our country according to our free will, rather than rabbinic dictates.

It means recognizing we are not alone in this land – and demanding from the Palestinians that they do the same.

It means to free ourselves, once-and-for-all, from the nightmare of being an occupying, uprooting, exploiting, settling, expropriating, humiliating, discriminatory country.

For more than 30 years, the settlers' dream has choked the dream of free Israelis. The dream of the whole land of Israel and a messianic kingship drains daily the hope of being a people free to build a just society.

For more than 30 years, the settlers' dream has trampled my dreams, and those of my friends.

Collapsing dreams

But because of this, I can understand the settlers' pain and desperation as they watch their dream collapse before their eyes.

They are experiencing exactly what my friends and I have gone through, because of them, all this time. I opposed their project from the onset, from the very first settlement.

I look into their eyes, and I see true desperation and true pain, and without the slightest joy, I can say: The pain you are going through today is very similar to the pain you have put free Israel friends through for more than 30 years.

I will respect your mourning by remaining silent, but I cannot share in your grief.

All we've got

And what will be after all the grief? Israel, for all her faults, is all we've got. It's easy to throw stones at her, but this is not the country we prayed for.

The floor is deep, the ceiling cracked, the lights go off three times a day.

It's easy to come up with substitutes for this Israel, easy to build castles in the sky about messianic monarchies on one hand and post-Israel-ism on the other.

But Israel, for all its faults, is all we've got.

Perhaps instead of kicking her, the time has come to get up and start fixing a little bit: To free ourselves of the occupation that continues to corrupt us. To renew our social solidarity.

A bit less "brotherly love," a bit more responsibility for others less fortunate than ourselves. bit less holiness, a bit more justice. A bit less of the whole land of Israel, and a State of Israel a bit more whole with itself.

Protecting our most vital border

Through the murky cloud of poetic words and sobs, we can sometimes see, during these very days, the State of Israel's quiet, beautiful face: The faces of youngsters in uniforms who chose, despite the pressure and violence, despite the curses and false hugs and emotional manipulation, to get up and protect with their body the dream of being a free people – not rule over the Palestinians and not be ruled over by rabbis.

The beaten, humiliated, slapped-on-the-face soldier-boy, the police officer who was spat in the face, at this time they are the brave defenders of the State of Israel in the face of the unruly wave of zealousness.

The young soldier-girl, her throat chocked by tears, barely 19-years-old, already carries the burden of the two-thousand-year-hope to be a free nation in our country on her shoulders.

Not in Palestinian Gaza, but rather, in our country.

With assertiveness and silent courage, but also with restraint, wisdom, and compassion, this female soldier is currently protecting our most vital border – the border between what is allowed and what is not.

This is the border without which we will have no state and without which there is no freedom, no society, nothing but fiery zealousness, messianic-hysterical extremism, and complete destruction – a state of affairs the Jewish people has known more than once in the past.


Amos Oz has published 18 books in Hebrew, and about 450 articles and essays in Israeli and international magazines and newspapers which have been translated into 30 languages in over 35 countries. Since the Six Day War in 1967, He has been actively involved with various groups within the Israeli Peace Movement. He has been one of the leading figures of "Peace Now" since its founding in 1977.

Amos Oz is one of Israel's most celebrated authors

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3130842,00.html

[Mira]

You know, I usually like Amos Oz. :eek: Anyway, someone needs to remind the guy that it was the Israeli government who encouraged those people to live in Gaza.

[SteveK]

You know, I usually like Amos Oz. :eek: Anyway, someone needs to remind the guy that it was the Israeli government who encouraged those people to live in Gaza.


Someone needs to remind the Jewish People to remind the world that it was The Living God of Israel Who encouraged US PEOPLE to live in ALL THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

[Mira]

Stop pretending to be religious, Steve.

[SteveK]

Stop pretending to be religious, Steve.

You gave up your Jewish heritage a long time ago. Did you find your guru yet?

[savvy]

Mira, I don't disagree with Steve. Israel's destiny, is in God's hands, regardless of whether jews believe it or not. You'r Messiah is coming very soon. Infact the Bible is coming true so fast, my head's starting to spin. Jacob's trial was long, but won't continue very long, so you have reason for hope. I think Israel should accomodate both religious and secular jews, and they should come to an agreement on things, give the religious ppl a 50% share and the secular jews a 50%, one, cause the last thing we need is jews fighting jews.

[SteveK]

Mira, I don't disagree with Steve. Israel's destiny, is in God's hands, regardless of whether jews believe it or not. You'r Messiah is coming very soon. Infact the Bible is coming true so fast, my head's starting to spin. Jacob's trial was long, but won't continue very long, so you have reason for hope. I think Israel should accomodate both religious and secular jews, and they should come to an agreement on things, give the religious ppl a 50% share and the secular jews a 50%, one, cause the last thing we need is jews fighting jews.

savvy,

Thanks. But, you are probably a very sensible and serious Christian Zionist, and you are not embarassed about proclaiming your faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Of course, your intermediary of Jesus is your business.

Mira is a Jew, and a very common one, who is embarrassed to proclaim faith in God in front of the world. She is embarrassed because then she has to claim too that Israel is God given Land. And, so on. It's not politically or socially correct for Jews to believe TOO MUCH in THE LIVING GOD OF ISRAEL,--- and I'm talking about from Jews in Israel, let alone from Jews outside of Israel like Mira, now living in California, with all her Muslim friends.

So, I do understand to which audience Mira is playing.

[Mira]

I believe in G-d, and I can recognize a religious enthusiast when I "see" one. Go find yourself some discipline, Stevek.

[SteveK]

I believe in G-d, and I can recognize a religious enthusiast when I "see" one. Go find yourself some discipline, Stevek.

Try to find yourself, first. But, with all that smog in California, you might have alot of trouble even "seeing" yourself.

[Toga]

Let me remind everyone that the regilious Jews produce babies who will hold on to the land of Israel. At the same time the secular Jews marry the non-Jews and produce the non-Jews.

If the mother is not Jewish one can forget the Jewishness all together and if the father is not Jewish the kids become the watered-down Jews who go on marrying the non-Jews. Eventually, in their search for an identity and ignorant about Judaism they wear crosses around their necks.

So, the Orthodox Jews is the only assured Jewish future. The missionaries don't stand a chance with most of them and Israel is not free of them either. In fact, it is estimated that 5000 of them are running around Israel trying to sell the Jews their stuff.

[Mira]

Let me remind everyone that the regilious Jews produce babies who will hold on to the land of Israel. At the same time the secular Jews marry the non-Jews and produce the non-Jews.

If the mother is not Jewish one can forget the Jewishness all together and if the father is not Jewish the kids become the watered-down Jews who go on marrying the non-Jews. Eventually, in their search for an identity and ignorant about Judaism they wear crosses around their necks.

So, the Orthodox Jews is the only assured Jewish future. The missionaries don't stand a chance with most of them and Israel is not free of them either. In fact, it is estimated that 5000 of them are running around Israel trying to sell the Jews their stuff.

That's not a concern in Israel.

[SteveK]

Let me remind everyone that the regilious Jews produce babies who will hold on to the land of Israel. At the same time the secular Jews marry the non-Jews and produce the non-Jews.

If the mother is not Jewish one can forget the Jewishness all together and if the father is not Jewish the kids become the watered-down Jews who go on marrying the non-Jews. Eventually, in their search for an identity and ignorant about Judaism they wear crosses around their necks.

So, the Orthodox Jews is the only assured Jewish future. The missionaries don't stand a chance with most of them and Israel is not free of them either. In fact, it is estimated that 5000 of them are running around Israel trying to sell the Jews their stuff.

Toga,

Your theory is good.

But, in practice we are seeing the surrendering of a large chunk of Israeli land to the Arab A+MT&IP by expelling thousands of Orthodox religious Jews, and all the babies that they produced.

Maybe, you should be including a couple million diaspora real Jews in your count who must be here now in Israel to assure the Jewish future and hold on to the Land of Israel.

Jews can't do that from the diaspora, Toga. Diaspora Jews are only holding on to Christian lands, and assuring the future of Christian Countries.

[Toga]

Toga,

Your theory is good.

But, in practice we are seeing the surrendering of a large chunk of Israeli land to the Arab A+MT&IP by expelling thousands of Orthodox religious Jews, and all the babies that they produced.

Maybe, you should be including a couple million diaspora real Jews in your count who must be here now in Israel to assure the Jewish future and hold on to the Land of Israel.

Jews can't do that from the diaspora, Toga. Diaspora Jews are only holding on to Christian lands, and assuring the future of Christian Countries.

I agree!

[SteveK]

I agree!

So, where are you?

Moses, lead your people out of America to the Promised Land.

[SteveK]

I believe in G-d, and I can recognize a religious enthusiast when I "see" one. Go find yourself some discipline, Stevek.


At least, I didn't think of the better answer 24 hours later... Damn ......


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW POURED ACID ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

OPHRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[determinism]

If the mother is not Jewish one can forget the Jewishness all together and if the father is not Jewish the kids become the watered-down Jews who go on marrying the non-Jews. Eventually, in their search for an identity and ignorant about Judaism they wear crosses around their necks.

you would never consider to marry a new jewish person? why is that such a scary idea?

[Mira]

Let's give a big hand to the police and the soldiers.

For two reasons I was (am) against the so Land-for-Nothing Deal: security-wise it's stupid, and it's a disgrace for the Jews. But, as it worked out the police and the soldiers sanctified us big time.


The politicians who sent them can't say it as powerful as us, the opposition: kudos for your empathy, patience, understanding, humaneness, tears, and yes: love. From the beginning of this week already the buses in Jerusalem carried big ads, as an apparent reaction to the mantra of a looming civil war, calling upon the Blue and the Orange section to heal the rift. But this is exactly what you did. Thanks to the media, the photographers and the journalists in the lead, we have the proof how you helped, listened and cried. You made me proud of being a fellow Jew. (Years of complaints about police brutality, especially during Right wing political events, made me anticipate the worst, but not only was there none of this - you went way beyond any call of duty and must have astounded even the optimists.)

A lot of emotional healing has only just began (and more than that: the housing and jobs and finances of thousands of people is still up in the air, and the political field is a mess) but with all that we will have to get busy with, let's not forget the unity and closeness that was, and let's continue to build on it - a better people.


...

[Sihvyl]

I can't figure out the quoting feature on here...ahh well.
"I think Israel should accomodate both religious and secular jews, and they should come to an agreement on things, give the religious ppl a 50% share and the secular jews a 50%, one, cause the last thing we need is jews fighting jews."

Thats a valid point, especially the ending, but I do believe that ultimately such an agreement would lead to Toga's theory...."Let me remind everyone that the regilious Jews produce babies who will hold on to the land of Israel. At the same time the secular Jews marry the non-Jews and produce the non-Jews.

If the mother is not Jewish one can forget the Jewishness all together and if the father is not Jewish the kids become the watered-down Jews who go on marrying the non-Jews. Eventually, in their search for an identity and ignorant about Judaism they wear crosses around their necks."

Maybe it wouldn't, but experience in watching Christian families degrade in such a way tells me different.

SteveK, I appreciate your stance..I really do, but just remember; Modesty brother...you don't need to 'show yourself' so much. Don't induce hate, spread knowledge.

[NewsGuy]

I read this garbage in today's Yediot and was thoroughly disgusted by it in Hebrew and now in English. At least Yediot also published a counterpoint by A.B. Yehosuah who is a celebrity Israeli writer whose accomplishments far exceed those of Oz.

They have their own dream. The first stage is the "whole land of Israel," filled wall-to-wall with Jews-only towns.

So, instead, this maggot writer supports a Jew-free Palestine. No problem there.

The second stage is to transform Israel into a halachic state', a country ruled by Jewish religious law. Elections, the Knesset, the government and the courts may continue to function, but settler rabbis will decide just what issues are appropriate for these bodies to decide, and what issues are too "holy" and important to be left to the people and their elected officials.

A baseless lie. The only ones who tried to sidestep democracy and the rule of law were Sharon and his Leftist allies.

But if we refuse, the brotherly love and the hugs will go out the window, and we will become little more than traitorous leftists or Nazis.

No... But if you try to tear babies away from their mothers' arms and forcefully expel thousands of peaceful Jewish families from their homes in the Jewish homeland, there will be some degree of resistance. Is that surprising?


But we non-religious Israelis also have a dream. We want to live in an enlightened, open and just country, not in some messianic, rabbinic monarchy, and not in the whole land of Israel. We came here to be a free people in our own land.

To be a free people means each person is entitled to choose which parts of Jewish tradition are important to him, and which to leave behind. It means to have the freedom to run our country according to our free will, rather than rabbinic dictates.
This really tells what the real struggle is about: Hatred of traditional Jews, who moved out (at the government's encouragement) to the settlements to be at the forefront of Israel's defense. There they built communities in which they want to live as they please without self-hating Jews to interfere with their lifestyle. They did not dictate what people in Tel Aviv do. They did not dictate to Oz what he can or can't do. All they wanted is to raise their families as Torah-observant Jews, just like all people should be entitled to.

But people like Oz who dream of eliminating all Jewish character from the State of Israel, because they think that being self-hating Jews makes them "enlightened" just won't let anyone worship as a free people. Well, actually, they will fight to the death to grant freedom of religion to all but Jews.

I am not personally an observant Jew, but I know that the Leftists who want to prevent Israel from being a Jewish state are doing us all a disservice.

If you want to eat a cheeseburger with bacon on Yom Kippur, go for it. I won't object. But don't turn the land of Israel into a Muslim caliphate. That's not being "enlightened" in my book, and it won't make Muslims or other anti-Semites hate you any less.

For more than 30 years, the settlers' dream has trampled my dreams, and those of my friends.
It's a good thing that there is no such thing as Islamic terrorism, or suicide bombings or kassam missiles to interfere with his bizarre self-hating vendetta against religious Jews.

Who will Leftists blame now that Gaza is ethnically cleansed and there are no more settlers to blame when the Kassams hit kindergartens in Tel Aviv? Maybe they'll blame the Messiah...

And what will be after all the grief? Israel, for all her faults, is all we've got. It's easy to throw stones at her, but this is not the country we prayed for.
Someone should really point out to Oz that he, of all people, did not actually pray for anything.

If Israel is all he's got, then why not face up to the reality of what is killing Israelis and other non-Muslims worldwide -- the global Jihad.

I would say to Mr Oz and to his fellow Leftists - Please go apply for citizenship in the soon-to-be built Palestine where you can share your hatred of Israeli patriots like the settlers. This co-miserating can take place for at least a few minutes before Oz and his friends hear their final "Allau Ackbar," as they are blind-folded and beheaded by their Hamas soul-mates in Gaza.

[Toga]

you would never consider to marry a new jewish person? why is that such a scary idea?

Sorry, but the Jews are not created by one or two rituals. When you learn what is involved in the transformation process then you would understand why it is important for the Jews to marry Jews.

[Ophra]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW POURED ACID ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

OPHRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

That was yesterday Steve ...... 10 years ago "THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW" murdered someone I loved ....someone I admired and respected ... in doing so he turned me against his kind forever and a day !!

[redcake]

I've yet to hear one sensible explanation for why Israel should change it's identity to eliminate the religious element if was founded around. Without Judaism there wouldn't be an Israel in the first place. Not the concept, not the citizens... nothing. So it's stupid to squabble that Israel isn't meeting the modern needs of a secular State, when clearly Israelis are doing just fine living their lives without the religious. Take out the religious element, and you've basically created a new State with a people who have rejected the real historical lineage to the land, and every single thing that makes Israel and Israeli's legitemate. That's right, the religious Jews of Israel keep Israel from being some fictionalized modern creation, like say... Palestine.

[determinism]

becoming a jew is not easy...but the question is why is it important to perpetuate a race or religion? the world would perhaps be slightly more peaceful if these concepts would not exist anymore.

[Mira]

the world would perhaps be slightly more peaceful if these concepts would not exist anymore.

I doubt it.

[Mediocrates]

Why is anything important one could say too. Why bother with anything at all?

[Mira]

That was yesterday Steve ...... 10 years ago "THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW" murdered someone I loved ....someone I admired and respected ... in doing so he turned me against his kind forever and a day !!

That's YOUR PrOblEm, Ophra. This is your issue that you need to deal with. You complain all the time how diaspora Jews categorize Israelis as either left or right when you know damn well that there is a whole spectrum there and yet you do the same thing to American Jews, to observnat Jews, to anyone who you don't understand. One guy kills Rabin and now the entire spectrum of Jews who have any inclination towards religion get demonized by you. Don't you see how you have become what you hate?

[determinism]

Mira,

i agree but who knows!? after all currently most wars are faught in the name of religion or race.


Mediocrates,

Why is anything important one could say too. Why bother with anything at all?

well some things bring pleasure or reduce suffering, so i would say they are worth while varying efforts.

[Mira]

Mira,

i agree but who knows!? after all currently most wars are faught in the name of religion or race.

Where were you when the US and USSR were fighting over secular ideologies? race and religion are just excuses for fighting over oil, land, water, and other resources.

[determinism]

Mira,

yes of course, thats why i said in the NAME of religion and race.

[Mediocrates]

Like Castro's Cuba, which is kind of a modern day hero-god-king worship cult.


Actually the next really savage wars will be fought for AIDS drugs. Strangely though even all the winners will die.

[redcake]

i agree but who knows!? after all currently most wars are faught in the name of religion or race.

So fighting to supress what's dear to others is supposed to be progressive? You're just making a very fashionable argument that has little depth to it outside the dorm rooms. Okay so our differences keep us apart....wouldn't it be great if we elimnated all the things that make us different? I propose a mandatory dress code of snow suits and ski masks, h'bout you?

[Mira]

Mira,

yes of course, thats why i said in the NAME of religion and race.

So you want to eliminate religion in order to remove one level of indirection? Why don't we just try to attack the real problems instead of forcing people to abandon their cultures and traditions? Forcing people to be like you won't stop the fighting so why bother?

[Mira]

Like Castro's Cuba, which is kind of a modern day hero-god-king worship cult.


Actually the next really savage wars will be fought for AIDS drugs. Strangely though even all the winners will die.

Ha, ha, very funny. No, those who don't have access to neccessary pharma will either die or the people in their countries will circumvent the IP laws. Water is the most valuable resource in the world. If Kashmir didn't have water, Pakistan and India wouldn't be so deadlocked on the issue.

[Ophra]

That's YOUR PrOblEm, Ophra. This is your issue that you need to deal with. You complain all the time how diaspora Jews categorize Israelis as either left or right when you know damn well that there is a whole spectrum there and yet you do the same thing to American Jews, to observnat Jews, to anyone who you don't understand. One guy kills Rabin and now the entire spectrum of Jews who have any inclination towards religion get demonized by you. Don't you see how you have become what you hate?

No Mira .. you are so wrong , let me try and explain.

The operative word in Steve's sentence of "THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW" is not religion ... the operative word is extremism . It's not that I don't understand .... I have been trying to understand what the hell happened to us for 10 years already .
It wasn't one guy who killed Rabin Mira .... he had the support of many ... until this day they still support him.
I don't hate them Mira .... if you must have an emotion then best I can do is disgust .... disgust and fear .
.... and it's not just my problem Mira ... it's all of our problem .

[SteveK]

No Mira .. you are so wrong , let me try and explain.

The operative word in Steve's sentence of "THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW" is not religion ... the operative word is extremism . It's not that I don't understand .... I have been trying to understand what the hell happened to us for 10 years already .
It wasn't one guy who killed Rabin Mira .... he had the support of many ... until this day they still support him.
I don't hate them Mira .... if you must have an emotion then best I can do is disgust .... disgust and fear .
.... and it's not just my problem Mira ... it's all of our problem .


Ophra,

I don't know how else the Israeli atheists will react, except to yell extemists, and even murderers, as Torah observant Jews work toward the implementation of a Torah Nation here in Israel.

You all are looking to demonize and marginalize and whateverelseize all you can to put God and Torah into the strongest of social and political detention.

[determinism]

i would like to come back to the original question:

why is it important to perpetuate a race or religion?

i can understand that a basic believe in god or a live after death is a comforting idea but why adhere to stories that are, to put it mildly, a little outdated (and often support the hate for others)?

So you want to eliminate religion in order to remove one level of indirection?Why don't we just try to attack the real problems instead of forcing people to abandon their cultures and traditions? Forcing people to be like you won't stop the fighting so why bother?

i don't want to eliminate religion or tradition per se as it helps people to cope with life. but religions that tell their followers that they are better than none believers or members of different denominations are a problem and should be eliminated not by force but by education. The same is true for all traditions that rather hurt than help people (like female circumcision).

Actually the next really savage wars will be fought for AIDS drugs. Strangely though even all the winners will die.

all winners die eventually! :)

[Mediocrates]

Ha, ha, very funny. No, those who don't have access to neccessary pharma will either die or the people in their countries will circumvent the IP laws. Water is the most valuable resource in the world. If Kashmir didn't have water, Pakistan and India wouldn't be so deadlocked on the issue.


In at least a half dozen African populations the rate of HIV in the armed forces is 50% or higher. This means that the sickest most desperate segment of the population is also the most heavily armed. As each nations ability to have a working middle age population falls apart you will see these countries fall into outright barbarism. There will be no one left to farm, to work in factories to take care of children, run the hospitals and this will further accelerate the disintegration of the public infrastructure like roads, water, sewer, electricity, etc. Today there are two population projections: one expects 1.3 billion by 2050 and the other expects 550 million. Today the count is about 974 million so you see the divergence. I pick the lower number.

[Mediocrates]

all winners die eventually! :)


Pick your way through the litter of a third world hospital then get back to me, thanks.

But as I've always said, the Palestinians have the advantage of being the most advanced third world people in the world. That is the sweet spot for bleeding hearts who'd like to vacation in exotic places like that someday.

[Mira]

i would like to come back to the original question:



i can understand that a basic believe in god or a live after death is a comforting idea but why adhere to stories that are, to put it mildly, a little outdated (and often support the hate for others)?
you don't understand what it is that you're criticizing, so when you say "outdated," I can't agree with you on that.



i don't want to eliminate religion or tradition per se as it helps people to cope with life. but religions that tell their followers that they are better than none believers or members of different denominations
which religions teach this?

[Mira]

No Mira .. you are so wrong , let me try and explain.

The operative word in Steve's sentence of "THE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST ORTHODOX JEW" is not religion ... the operative word is extremism . It's not that I don't understand .... I have been trying to understand what the hell happened to us for 10 years already .
It wasn't one guy who killed Rabin Mira .... he had the support of many ... until this day they still support him.
I don't hate them Mira .... if you must have an emotion then best I can do is disgust .... disgust and fear .
.... and it's not just my problem Mira ... it's all of our problem .

I have to wonder what extremism means to you, though. You seem to label anybody who has an inclination towards Judaism an extremist, including me!

[Gilgamesh]

For the benefit of others, I'll answer these questions as simple as I know you may understand.

i can understand that a basic believe in god or a live after death is a comforting idea but why adhere to stories that are, to put it mildly, a little outdated (and often support the hate for others)?
We Jews stick to our history and tradition, because they bring us and the rest of the world alot of good inspiration and passion to do good.

Your allegation, as if there are similarities between your own decadent culture of blood and violance, and our anciant Jewish civilization, boils my blood. We Jews are nothing like you, Austrian. Our religion does not preech hate and genocide like yours, Austrian.

Judaism does not includ any hate toward others. Judaism is different from any of the religions you are familiar with, Islam or Christianity. Whoever we do hate, earned it fairly. Our hate of Nazis and Jihadists does not follow from our religion, but our sense of justice, which itself is based on our religion.

Among the two of us, Austrian, you are the one who was born into a society, it's values caused most demage to humanity as a whole, and my people in particular. We Jews believe alot in personal example. I suggest you start deleting your own culture and religion, instead of dispencing wierd suggestions to insluting us. I begin to think you to be a Troll. You haven't really contributed anything other then masked allegations against us, or superficial attempts to morally equivlences between our two cultures. It'd never happen, not on my watch.

Instead of avoiding you, I'll tackle each of your posts and teach the youngsters here a thing or two about exposing the Nazi out of his shell. I'll proove what "post war Europe" is really made of.

but religions that tell their followers that they are better than none believers or members of different denominations are a problem and should be eliminated not by force but by education. Do you spacificly talk about Islam? Or you rather avoid this subject?

all winners die eventually! :) lossers die sooner and uglier.

[determinism]

Mira,

you don't understand what it is that you're criticizing, so when you say "outdated," I can't agree with you on that.

in what sense do i not understand what i criticise? i read quite a bit of the bible (old and new testament).
if one takes the bible stories (old and new testament) as allegories some are quite interesting (like greek mythology). but if you take them literal (adam + eve, noah, etc.) they have no value imo.

which religions teach this?

well if you are not a christian (and you have to be of the right denomination!) you are not going to heaven but to hell, same in islam. religious jews think they are gods chosen people (as far as i know), jehovahs witnesses think their god will kill everyone who is not a JW in a few years...
all this sounds to me as if the religions put their members above all other humans. exceptions are some asian believes like buddhism.


Gilgamesh

i am sorry but i have no intention to get into a name calling game.

[Gilgamesh]

i am sorry but i have no intention to get into a name calling game.

Ignore me or not, I'll post my mind about you, and expalin you subtext to all those willing to overlook. I'll proove you to be an anti semite. I'll show others what you are really made of. I'll answer your racist allegations at us one by one, so others will take heed.

For as long as you are here, I'll point my finger at you.

[Mira]

Mira,



in what sense do i not understand what i criticise? i read quite a bit of the bible (old and new testament).
if one takes the bible stories (old and new testament) as allegories some are quite interesting (like greek mythology). but if you take them literal (adam + eve, noah, etc.) they have no value imo.

what do you think of the idea of "divinely inspired" allegory?



well if you are not a christian (and you have to be of the right denomination!) you are not going to heaven but to hell, same in islam. religious jews think they are gods chosen people (as far as i know), jehovahs witnesses think their god will kill everyone who is not a JW in a few years...
all this sounds to me as if the religions put their members above all other humans. exceptions are some asian believes like buddhism.

The term "chosen people" is probably the most misunderstood concept about Judaism. What do you think Jews mean when we refer to ourselves as a "chosen people?"

[Mira]

For as long as you are here, I'll point my finger at you.

:D Is that finger loaded?

[determinism]

Mira,

what do you think of the idea of "divinely inspired" allegory?

well i am somewhere between an agnostic and an athesist...so i don't really think god ever contacted us. if he did why was the messge only given to a handfull of people? why was it written in a way that can be interpreted in different ways? why does he not just show up and tell us what is the right way to do things?

The term "chosen people" is probably the most misunderstood concept about Judaism. What do you think Jews mean when we refer to ourselves as a "chosen people?"

i have to say it is indeed a problematic term as it suggests to all others that jews think they are gods favorite...more valuable than others. there is another question in this context ... are people who want to become jews welcome? do they get accepted?

[Mira]

Mira,


[QUOTE]well i am somewhere between an agnostic and an athesist...so i don't really think god ever contacted us. if he did why was the messge only given to a handfull of people?

Most cultures have struggled with concepts of the divine and each has its own path for attaining greater spiritual insight. That said, if you think about what the world was like at the time that this revolutionary manifesto of monotheism was reported to have been given to the Israelites, it becomes much easier to see why such a doctrine would have to be protected by first being nurtured by a smaller community of individuals.

why was it written in a way that can be interpreted in different ways? why does he not just show up and tell us what is the right way to do things?

What do you think would happen if we expected G-d to intervene every time human beings have a dispute?

i have to say it is indeed a problematic term as it suggests to all others that jews think they are gods favorite...more valuable than others.

Choseness means chosen for service, not for inherent superiority. Jews believe that we were chosen to act as a represenative for one particular book, the Torah, with the idea that if we fulfill our role properly, the other Peoples of the world will see how satisfying it is to live a torah centered life and will then join us. That's all it means, nothing more. Unlike the Nazis who believed that because of the inherent superiority of their race they were entitled to exterminate other "races," accepting the terms of the contract obligates us to act in accordance with a higher, rather than lower moral standard. When we fail to uphold our obligation, as has been the case throughout our history, we are told that all of our iniquities are revisted upon us. Amos 3:2. I would imagine that the Muslims have a similar contract, although I'm not sure that they have a similar penalty like the one in Amos for failing to meet their obligations (maybe one of the Muslims can help me out here).

there is another question in this context ... are people who want to become jews welcome? do they get accepted?

Because we agreed to act as represenatives, we are not supposed to prostyletize. Conversions are permited, but they are not encouraged, because in theory, the covenant is a two-way street and as I mentioned above, we catch "hell" when we don't meet our end of this contract. That said, there are many famous converts, including the biblical account of a Moabite woman named Ruth, who was so revered in the torah that she became the progenitor from whom are promised Messiah will descend. Now can you imagine someone like Hitler claiming to the Germans that the future leader of his Aryan people would one day be an African man?

[Cato]

I think it is a good thing that judaism doesn't prosletyze because the God clearly meant for people to worship differently.

[Gilgamesh]

The term "chosen people" is probably the most misunderstood concept about Judaism. What do you think Jews mean when we refer to ourselves as a "chosen people?"

All he knows, is himself, and no much more then how we know him so far.
He thinks we think of ourselves as "Juden uber alles", just like what he thinks of himself.

He can't be more wrong! Yet, I don't believe we can change his mind.

[Gilgamesh]

if he did why was the messge only given to a handfull of people? Who says G-d has delivered a single message to Jews only? Infact, the prophets clearly say that all rightous people, of all race and creed, will find their OWN way to G-d, irrelevent to Judaism.

why was it written in a way that can be interpreted in different ways? Because men are thinking animals. The purpose of the JEWISH holy texts is to provoke debate, promote thinking within given guidlines, adapt moral ideas to real world situation, and to hold every person accountable for his decision.

We are not following blindly orders like you are expecting, Austria. We are demanded to think for ourselves, because NO ONE ELSE can carry other person guilt, responsibiliy or blessings.

why does he not just show up and tell us what is the right way to do things? G-d show to every person devoted enough to learning.

i have to say it is indeed a problematic term as it suggests to all others that jews think they are gods favorite...more valuable than others. We are not Nazis, Austrian. You are insulting when you suggest that.

there is another question in this context ... are people who want to become jews welcome? do they get accepted? Judaism is national religion. The religion of ethinic national group of all people who are direct decendents of the citizens of anciant Judea.

we Jews are not interested in missionary activity. We have no wish to force others to perform our rituals. There for, conversion is a long difficult process that demands a long hard learning. Conversion can only be the result of strong free will, like after a marrige between a Jew with gentile.

Jewish religion is for Jews only. Others a free to evolve in their own path.

[Gilgamesh]

:D Is that finger loaded?Wish it was, Mira. I wish it was. :)

[determinism]

That said, if you think about what the world was like at the time that this revolutionary manifesto of monotheism was reported to have been given to the Israelites, it becomes much easier to see why such a doctrine would have to be protected by first being nurtured by a smaller community of individuals.

why is that?
if god would suddenly appear to everyone and say...folks, i am god the creator of the universe...here are the rules you have to live by...
would that not have been more effective? if he cares that we believe in him and follow his rules why the hide and seek game?

What do you think would happen if we expected G-d to intervene every time human beings have a dispute?

god is by definition almighty right? so could he not just set the rules so that suffering cannot happen?

Choseness means chosen for service, not for inherent superiority. Jews believe that we were chosen to act as a represenative for one particular book, the Torah, with the idea that if we fulfill our role properly, the other Peoples of the world will see how satisfying it is to live a torah centered life and will then join us. That's all it means, nothing more.

thank you for clearing that up! you guys should make that more public!

only one question, if the goal is that others join you how does this fit together with:
Conversions are permited, but they are not encouraged, because in theory, the covenant is a two-way street and as I mentioned above, we catch "hell" when we don't meet our end of this contract.

[Mira]

why is that?
if god would suddenly appear to everyone and say...folks, i am god the creator of the universe...here are the rules you have to live by...
would that not have been more effective? if he cares that we believe in him and follow his rules why the hide and seek game?
As Gil mentioned, G-d is made manifest to those who are devoted to learning about Him. Well said, Gil. When the Israelites received this manifesto, paganism was deeply entrenched in that part of the world. If you were to believe the account at Sinai, it was accompanied by tremendous signs and wonders and even then, it wasn't long before some of the Israelites reverted back to their pagan ways. And when G-d made Himself manifest, he appeared differently to every person, so revelation of G-d to even more people at that particular moment in time would not have ended controversy. It didn't end controversy for that small band of individuals standing at Sinai.

This shouldn't really be difficult to understand if you think about it pragmatically. How does any revolutionary doctrine grow in strength? An ideological framework germinates among a small group who then become the represenatives of those ideas to a larger community, and the ideology spreads. From a small band of people, how many people have heard of the doctrine of montheism today and how many followers can be counted among these people?


god is by definition almighty right? so could he not just set the rules so that suffering cannot happen?
That's a very complex topic and you can fill a library just on this subject alone. Jews are taught to believe that whatever G-d wills, it is for the best, even if because of a gap in our own knowledge, G-d's sense of justice and mercy don't appear aligned with our own sense of these terms.

thank you for clearing that up! you guys should make that more public!

only one question, if the goal is that others join you how does this fit together with..."Conversions are permited, but they are not encouraged, because in theory, the covenant is a two-way street and as I mentioned above, we catch "hell" when we don't meet our end of this contract."
By encouraged, I mean that we don't proselytize. Not being Jewish doesn't prevent a person from being considered a righteous person or enjoying the fruits of a "world to come," so there is no penalty for not being Jewish (we don't believe non-believers burn in a place called hell). A potential convert has to understand the seriousness of the obligation that they are undertaking. Otherwise, why be Jewish? Being Jewish is wonderful, but anti-semitism isn't something I would wish on anyone, or the burdens of our collective responsability. Jewish history is full of suffering. The rewards are great, but so are the punishments and if you aren't serious about the undertaking, you will experience more unhappiness than pleasure.

[Mediocrates]

That's a very complex topic and you can fill a library just on this subject alone. Jews are taught to believe that whatever G-d wills, it is for the best, even if because of a gap in our own knowledge, G-d's sense of justice and mercy don't appear aligned with our own sense of these terms.


Theosophy? Why is there evil? Well without evil there can be no ethics. Without ethics there is no humanity. That's the short version of the Pirkey Avoth.

[Mira]

Theosophy? Why is there evil? Well without evil there can be no ethics. Without ethics there is no humanity. That's the short version of the Pirkey Avoth.

I was speaking more directly to the idea of suffering being an aspect of G-d's will and our lack of understanding regarding our own suffering. For example, the Talmud contains a story about Rabbi Akiva traveling when he came to a town late at night and looked for lodging. He was refused a place to stay by everyone in the town. He responded, "Whatever G-d does is for the good," and he went and slept in a field in the cold. He had with him a chicken, his donkey and a lamp. A wind came and blew out the candle, a wild dog came and ate his chicken, and a lion came and ate his donkey. He was left in the dark, with no donkey for transporation, no chicken for food, and he caught a severe cold. He said, "Whatever G-d does is for the best." That same night, some Roman soldiers came and carried off the inhabitants of the town, but Rabbi Akiva was safe in the field.

Contrast that, with the story of Elisha ben Abuyah in the Talmud, who because of a gap in his knowledge between man's concpet of justice and mercy and G-d's concept of justice and mercy, became a heretic. He never stoped believing in G-d, but he rebelled against G-d. And then you have all of the scholars who have written on the topic since the holocaust...etc...

The point is that from the very beginning, we have wrestled with the topic of human suffering. It's a significant topic in Judaism by itself.

[Mediocrates]

I tend to equate 'good' with 'ineffable' but I'm more or less an existentialist. In other words when faced with evil and suffering you can say

1 - God is weak
2 - God is indifferent
3 - God is evil
4 - God is insane
5 - The question in meaningless, God is ineffable.

Sometimes good things happen to good people and sometimes your favorite pet gets mangled in a street sweeper. In either case God isn't pushing trillions of tiny pieces around a board and making it all happen for some obscure and seemingly irrational and petty reason. No what's important is what you learn and take away from it.

I have a piece of an old recording of the first Jewish service held at Belsen concentration camp in May 5, 1945. I can't tell if they're crying or joyous and I'm not sure it matters either way. Evil is what it is. It's our role to survive it, comment on it and make some small effort to ameliorate it.

[minusthejihad]

I added a couple as well:

1 - God is weak
2 - God is indifferent
3 - God is evil
4 - God is insane
5 - God is screening calls
6 - God is on vacation
7 - God has decided you are a low priority
8 - The question in meaningless, God is ineffable.

[Mira]

I tend to equate 'good' with 'ineffable' but I'm more or less an existentialist. In other words when faced with evil and suffering you can say

1 - God is weak
2 - God is indifferent
3 - God is evil
4 - God is insane
5 - The question in meaningless, God is ineffable.

Sometimes good things happen to good people and sometimes your favorite pet gets mangled in a street sweeper. In either case God isn't pushing trillions of tiny pieces around a board and making it all happen for some obscure and seemingly irrational and petty reason. No what's important is what you learn and take away from it.

That pretty much sums up some of the post-holocaust thinking about the nature of G-d and suffering. Some even claim that G-d suffers with us. But then the question is, why pray?

I have a piece of an old recording of the first Jewish service held at Belsen concentration camp in May 5, 1945. I can't tell if they're crying or joyous and I'm not sure it matters either way. Evil is what it is. It's our role to survive it, comment on it and make some small effort to ameliorate it.
I heard the same thing in a piece of music once, Dewey Redman at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. We waited over an hour and he played a single song, entered from the back of the church and made his way down the aisle. I think that one tune took everything he had out of him. It was the most intense piece of music I've ever heard, mixing both pain and sweetness in a way that was so pure and unconctrived that I started crying in that church. I Never heard anything like that before or since.

[Mediocrates]

That pretty much sums up some of the post-holocaust thinking about the nature of G-d and suffering. Some even claim that G-d suffers with us. But then the question is, why pray?


You know the answer to that one............Why Not? It's our end of the bargain.

[SteveK]

I heard the same thing in a piece of music once, Dewey Redman at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. It was the most intense piece of music I've ever heard, mixing both pain and sweetness in a way that was so pure and unconctrived that I started crying in that church. I Never heard anything like that before or since.

Try listening to the Jews being expelled from their homes and land by this insane Israeli government.

[Mira]

You know the answer to that one............Why Not? It's our end of the bargain.

I know my answer. So do you pray because you are told to pray or because you receive some kind of intrinsic benefit from prayer? If the latter, what is that benefit? I have the feeling that we see things very similarly, but you tell me... See, for me, I have always had a problem with prayer. I've talked about it before on this board. I've thought about the reasons why Jews pray. Why do Jews prefer to pray in a minyan, for example? Is there something about group prayer that makes it intrinsicly better? Maybe it is the act itself that is important, an affirmation of the Jewish people's desire to lead a Jewish life, to be as One People with a common goal, a common destination?

The traditional prayer for Rosh HaShana says "teshuva, prayer, and charity remove the evil of the decree! I thought about this a couple years ago and realized that there's nothing there that says that prayer and mitzvot will remove the decree itself, simply that the evil of the decree would thereby be removed through these acts. In other words, we study/practice now, for when we need these tools later, when we are tested by the trials of life. As you said in your post above, it's what we take away and learn from our [prayer that helps us through those times of suffering].

[Mira]

I added a couple as well:

"Dial a prayer.....please hold." ;)

[Mediocrates]

Krauthammer speaks up

http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=429
Far from Israel getting any credit for this deeply wrenching action, the demand now is for yet more concessions -- from Israel. The New York Times called the Gaza withdrawal "only the beginning" and declared sonorously that Ariel Sharon "must also be forewarned" that giving up the West Bank must be next.

This is a counsel of folly. The idea that if only Israel made more concessions and more withdrawals, the Palestinians would be enticed into making peace is flatly contradicted by history.

[Mediocrates]

I know my answer. So do you pray because you are told to pray or because you receive some kind of intrinsic benefit from prayer? If the latter, what is that benefit? I have the feeling that we see things very similarly, but you tell me...

A personal question deserves a personal answer. Prayer is hope. We can follow the liturgy and focus intensely on the Amidah to ensure it's done perfectly and we can add a Kaddish here and there but in the end it is hope. Or grace - I'm not sure what the English word would be, sublime hope perhaps. This is why the question of does God answer prayer is to me, dull. Either God answers prayer and in a way you don't often understand, or in a timeframe that you don't understand or don't experience or God does not answer all prayers and we are all subject to the random movement of celestrial actors bouncing around on a big Roulette wheel. Nonetheless you still hope.


See, for me, I have always had a problem with prayer. I've talked about it before on this board. I've thought about the reasons why Jews pray. Why do Jews prefer to pray in a minyan, for example? Is there something about group prayer that makes it intrinsicly better?

Not all prayer is in a minyan - nor is a minyan better or worse than solitary prayer. After all what can you not do besides Kaddish, on your own. And why is Kaddish so important to do in minyan? What relationship do we have with the dead in our community that's spiritually or emotionally different for that matter than when they were alive? How many fights have you seen at a funeral where the family of the dearly departments struggles to establish who the dead person loved the most? Death doesn't always change that relationship, does it? So perhaps that's the real point of minyan.


The traditional prayer for Rosh HaShana says "teshuva, prayer, and charity remove the evil of the decree!

Words are words, deeds are deeds. Prayer is only as useful as the mitzvoth you employ to back it up. Prayer is as much a responsibility on us as it is on God. At least that's what I think but I tend to take on other people's problems.


I thought about this a couple years ago and realized that there's nothing there that says that prayer and mitzvot will remove the decree itself, simply that the evil of the decree would thereby be removed through these acts.

In the time of Katrina, there's the old joke that a pious old man was told to leave his house because there was a flood coming. But he did not. Instead he climbed on the roof of his house and beseeched God to rescue him. First one boat came by and he waved it off saying God will save me. Then another boat then finally a Coast Guard helicopter and he waved it off too saying God will provide. Finally he drowned and he went back to the House of Souls and asked God - why didn't you save me I prayed with all my heart, I was a tzaddek, I followed all the mitzvoth, why why why?

God answered - I sent two boats and a helicopter didn't I?

Prayer is hope. But hope is not enough.

[frizzer1]

I tend to equate 'good' with 'ineffable' but I'm more or less an existentialist. In other words when faced with evil and suffering you can say

1 - God is weak
2 - God is indifferent
3 - God is evil
4 - God is insane
5 - The question in meaningless, God is ineffable.

I prefer Woody Allen's take on it.
"G-d is an underachiever".
If G-d did indeed create us He did a terrible job of it.And the whole idea that G-d intervenes in human affairs makes Him responsible for the fact that at this very moment millions of his creations are dying and suffering terribly without any hope of things ever getting better.And don't get me started on the Holocaust.
As a child when I went to the rabbi with my questions, all he could give me was the usual "we don't understand G-d's ways".
Well,isn't that the truth!

[Mediocrates]

What kind of answer were you looking for?

[Mediocrates]

And how you look at the death of the firstborn depends on whether you were Egyptian or Hebrew.

[frizzer1]

What kind of answer were you looking for?

The answers that would satisfy a child.

[Sheherazade]

The answers that would satisfy a child.


I don't think there are any answers for that, that would satisfy a child.