whats an israeli leftist?

[pelsar]

i've been reading a lot here about the "hated leftest"...I"m not quite sure what that is...

can someone be a "leftest" and be a commando serving in the backalleys of jenin?...jabalyia?

can someone be a leftest and be against giving back jersualem?

will a leftest risk his life in the IDF and volunteer for combat reserve duty?

can someone be a leftest who and go to the synagouge during the high holidays?...give his son/daughter bar and bat mitzvas?

can a leftest be religious? and still want to return the westbank?

can he be someone who is not religious, an athiest..yet still want to keep the westbank etc?

is it someone who "hates jews?....and if so how do we know if its hatred or simply disagreement?...

who is the evil leftest....can i get a definitative answer here? I'd like to know so that when i see one I'll be able to recognize him/her

[redcake]

It's a case by case basis. There are Leftists of all varieties, but I think the basic principle of sympathisizing with the enemy is where the real resentment towards the Left comes from.

As far as the distinction between a disagreement and hatred.... when you disagree, you can often allow the oppossing party their right to do their business as they see fit....when it becomes an irrational dislike where you oppose their existance, or want to STOP them from doing business as always, and you put all the religious in one category then that's hatred. What is it you're really asking?

The brand of Israeli Leftists you're reading such venom towards evolved in the early to mid 70's...and if you go and read their platforms it defied Israel's reality of the time, and played more towards civil rights issues that existed in other countries. Then you had the other group, who were involved in the creation of Israel, and felt guilty for some of the extreme measures they had taken to secure the State by any means. Once Israel felt secure within it's borders, they started to eat themselves alive. Israel's entire culture was based around being on the defense.... the #1 song on top40 radio long after 1973 was a peace song.

[pelsar]

and what is defined as sympathising with the enemy?....I certainly can sympathise with the palaestenian who is a day laborer, is watched day and night as he goes about his business through telescopic scopes, earns pittance, waits in checkposts for endless hours, runs the danger of being shot if his doings are misinterperated or he just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time..........

does that make me an "enemy of israel".....

because that certainly would be strange given that the state of israel trusts me enough to send me into very dangerous places to man those same checkposts, look through those telescopic sights and discern if the palestenian is being a danger or not.....

The brand of Israeli Leftists you're reading such venom towards evolved in the early to mid 70's...and if you go and read their platforms it defied Israel's reality of the time

i never met any of these.....are they here on this site?

[redcake]

Oh cut it out. It makes you naive is what it makes you. Why should Israel be the object of resentment because they employ these Palestinians? Did Palestinians have running water, or electricity prior to 1967? Why not hold Palestinians responsible for their own situation? Are they less capable then Jews? To take the current Palestinian lifestyle out of context and use it against Israel is improper. If you want to feel bad for Palestinians, fine.... but you know exactly what I mean by "sympathize"...and playing dumb will only make you sound dumb.

because that certainly would be strange given that the state of israel trusts me enough to send me into very dangerous places to man those same checkposts, look through those telescopic sights and discern if the palestenian is being a danger or not.....

You and half of Israel. It's a really tired defense to pretend the IDF has sanctioned you as politically aware, and beacon of goodwill. Is the Knesset even entirely pro-Israel? You can exploit your duty as much as you want, but it's not going to win you any high ground here. I would hope you serve for better reasons they message board discussions. Don't cheapen it then.

i never met any of these.....are they here on this site?

Either you're playing devils advocate, or you very well could just be a product of these mysterious Leftists I speak of.

[pelsar]

what it is...is that i read on these message boards a sort of "hatred" for the "leftest"..an intolerance i find both disgusting and very "un jewish" at least not the values that i grew up with.

I grew up with tolerence for those that disagree with...without going off the handle and calling everybody a 'traitor"...or worse "a leftest.

from what i've read here, the leftest is somekind of traitor to israel..someone who will sell out his family to the "enemy"....and have israel destroyed.

that view is either based in ignorence or hate.

yes I serve...and i do it proudly and i dont do it for anybody on this board. I do for the lefties and righties and religious and athiests of israel (actually i do it for myself)....I can damn well sympathise with the palestenain whos life is miserable and at the sametime shoot the head of the guy sitting next to him..does that make me a lefty or a righty? I have a friend who hires palestenians so that they will have some work, yet believes in keeping all the territories...right or left?

those labels in my world dont mean a whole lot..they're used by those who need things black and white so that they dont have to think too much so that they can put on some nice lables ...and have "an enemy"

and one more time....I serve with all kinds of people with all kinds of views..and the funny thing is that none of them had the "hate" that i've seen here...strange isnt it, those who are actually out there are far more tolerent than those that arent

those lables if used..should have some qualifies with them.....otherwise i dont know if im being the object of some hatred toward half of israels population (is it half that is the extreme left? or is moderate left also "left"?)

[redcake]

People are just sizing up idealogies, and making assumptions. You don't seem that bothered by the same hatred towards the Right or the Religious. That you identify with one ideaology and think you need to show concern for the hatred towards Leftists puts you in a certain column. You have chosen to allign yourself with one camp of thinking towards the conflict. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

[pelsar]

People are just sizing up idealogies, and making assumptions. You don't seem that bothered by the same hatred towards the Right or the Religious. That you identify with one ideaology and think you need to show concern for the hatred towards Leftists puts you in a certain column. You have chosen to allign yourself with one camp of thinking towards the conflict. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I havent seem such "hatred" toward the right and religious as I've seen toward the "left" on this site thats all. My ideology can hardly be so simplified as "right or left"...so if people here would like to place me in that camp because is easier for their simplistic minds... thats ok...but its simply not true.

and yes, such simplicity pisses me off because if causes artificial diversions between the various different social groups....

[redcake]

Well obviously you're more sensitive to compassion towards the Left, or you haven't been reading this forum that consistantly. What people at your work place, or on the field while serving for the IDF indicate their politics might be, isn't a real life scale for what people think and feel behind closed doors.

The current political climate in Israel is a move towards the Left.... negotiating at all is a Leftist concept.... so ofcourse the Left is going to be under scrutiny.... the lives lost as a result of Oslo due to the Lefts attempt at appeasement are a great example of just why people "hate the Left".

[pelsar]

negotiating at all is a Leftist concept.... so ofcourse the Left is going to be under scrutiny.... the lives lost as a result of Oslo due to the Lefts attempt at appeasement are a great example of just why people "hate the Left".

no i disagree with the "hate" part....when there were no negotiations, when we were in the middle of intifada I or previous i cant recall people "hating the right" for causeing it (that would be the parrallel to negotiations).

some believe it was because of the right/settlements etc...but i can recall people "hating the right" or blaming them for deaths with such 'hatred"

[redcake]

Again, learn your history. The Intifada is not the ying yang for the negotiations/no negotiations equation. It's this perversion of a timeline that has made the Lefts attempts at settling the conflict so misguided and hurtfull.

Why would you hate the Right for a lack of negotiations? Why not hate the fact that the PLO presented a genocidal front that wasn't about coexistance or peace? Why do you think the Right should have been responsible for that? There is no parrallel here, you're talking about a sickness in which you claim that we create our own enemies. How questionable of you.

[MGB8]

Lets put it this way,

a leftist is someone who ignores reality (ie. what the Arabs are saying) because they so much want an imaginary peace.

a leftist worries more about the "rights" of the people trying to kill him and his family than he worries about the "rights" of his family and himself.

a leftist believes wholeheartedly in the idea "if we leave them alone, they will leave us alone," regardless of the reality of that statement.

more specific examples: a leftist applies standards to Israel that he does not apply to any other nation on earth, outraged about Israel's self defense while quiet about things like Sudan, or what goes on in the Arab world, etc.

a leftist justifies terrorism and mass murder and equates it to Israeli self defense... or even to Israeli checkpoints and curfews... as being more or less the same.

a leftist believes everything the Pal Arab propagandists and narrative has to say, and distrusts everything the Israeli and/or US government has to say, without actually bothering to look at the recorded history or the relative truth values of the statements (see Uri Avnery) because he WANTS to side against Israel.

A leftist buys the line that all the terrorism is because of "the occupation," even though the PLO was formed before the occupation began, had renounced the WB and Gaza, and the leftist forgets all the talk about the plan of phases and Oslo as a trojan horse... much less paying attention to Hamas, IJ, or the Pal Arab polls, TV, Mosque Sermons, etc.... and they forget why the occupation even began in the first place.

In short, a leftist is a person who is so afraid of having to live in a world where you must constantly be vigilant to survive... who desires normalcy so much... that they are willing to risk their friends and family to pretend that the enemy is just a bunch of reasonable people (which some, no doubt, are) and ignore the reality of the hate fest that is the enemy political machine, and very much reflected in the attitudes of the people. They are willing to take major gambles with the lives of their friends and family to gamble on illusions of peace... and will justify the enemy's actions and lies to a vast extent, instead of treating the enemy like an equal, and demanding the other be accountable for their actions, and or using force to, well, force peace.

[pelsar]

if the above is true..i've never met a leftest in israeli....and that includes thousands of israelis...

so the next time "leftest traitor" is screamed on this site...we can use the above to ask "said leftest" is that what they believe....and if the answer is no...I can expect a retraction from the screamers?

[redcake]

That's dead on, MGB.

[MGB8]

redcake,

what do you think is behind the vast majority of the "peace activists" against the Iraq post-war in the US. Most of them aren't actually anti-American. What they are are frightened people who really believe (or emotionally have to believe) that if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone. Now, many don't contemplate what fully "leaving them alone" means... ie. abandoning Israel to the wolves (hey, what's another 6 millions Jews dead?), abandoning the energy center of the world to potential massive wars (which the Iraq war was not), or, worse yet, a potential oil-monopolizing (using the "oil weapon") Califate. They forget that we were invited into Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in the first place. They don't care about the Arab's murdered by Saddam... because they'd rather "let the animals kill themselves." These so called "progressives" are really much more like reactionary rich white folk who don't believe in spending too much money to police the inner cities.... "let the animals kill themselves."

[pelsar]

perhaps your confusing the american peace activist with the israel left activists?....they are two very very different animals?

when I'm talking israeli left i dont mean your american style definition listed above...the israeli center/center/left/center right is a very different animal.

[Mediocrates]

I think you're being disingenuous if you claim to not understand the backlash of repeated attempts to demonize the settler movement and religious zionism generally. You can slap whatever name on it you want but there it is. After a decade of listening to their 'enlightened betters' bash and disparage them or in the case of the people who are more like Oprah, seethe with a disgust and hatred you rarely find outside of Hamas, it's really no mystery why they don't love you back, is it?

[MGB8]

Not to mention Yossi Beilin, Yossi Sarid, and the many post-Zionist (read: Anti-Zionist) Israeli profs who go and cry with Arafat... and root for Israel to fail... really viewing the existence of Israel as the Jewish state as the "original sin" - forgetting why it came into existance in the first place.

Please, the Israeli left is worse than the US left... because if you live there and ignore the Arab hate... what type of idiot and/or self-hater are you?

[pelsar]

leftist justifies terrorism and mass murder and equates it to Israeli self defense... or even to Israeli checkpoints and curfews... as being more or less the same.

this is part of your definition of the israeli "leftest".....other than the left extremist who i dont count anyway...perhaps you would like to quote your "other leftest who have agreed to the above?

btw claiming a "backlash" is like crying "he started it".....no excuse for demonaiztion no matter what side of line one is on

and those professors of revisiont history?...since when do they speak for the israeli left?..thats like claimng the hilltopyouth speak for the right....

btw..I dont seem to fit your stereotype of the left since according to your list...i'm pretty far from it

[redcake]

btw..I dont seem to fit your stereotype of the left since according to your list...i'm pretty far from it

Then why are you defending the title?

I'm also curious which Jews you share this sympathy you mention having for the working class Palestinian.....

[pelsar]

why do i defend "the leftest"...same reason i defend the "rightest"....we all live in the same country...i have no patience for the demonization for those that believe that what their belief is...is for the good of the country (extremists excluded)...thats why.

funny you chose such words...why would i "defend them"....well buddy maybe because they also defend me...as do the rightest and centralist!

i shake my head....as words fail me....how does one explain to someone who doesnt seem to get it....those lefties, deserve the same damn respect that those righties get, because we all fight together, watch each others back...THATS WHY!!!!!

I'm also curious which Jews you share this sympathy you mention having for the working class Palestinian.....
which jews?...about 500 reserve soldiers over the years, most israelis at checkposts- etc who see palestenians in line for 5-8 hrs have a touch of sympathy toward them on the personal level. It doesnt mean we dont do our job...but it also means were human....

[redcake]

i shake my head....as words fail me....how does one explain to someone who doesnt seem to get it....those lefties, deserve the same damn respect that those righties get, because we all fight together, watch each others back...THATS WHY!!!!!

In that case - Who pays for big advertisements bragging about how thye refused to serve in the terrorities, KNOWING it would be used as amunition against Israel. They publicized it on purpose. Ever hear of THOSE Leftists, or are you just gonna play yourself for the sake of an argument?

[pelsar]

In that case - Who pays for big advertisements bragging about how thye refused to serve in the terrorities, KNOWING it would be used as amunition against Israel. They publicized it on purpose. Ever hear of THOSE Leftists, or are you just gonna play yourself for the sake of an argument?

theres about 500 of them....its part of democracy and they have that right to scream their belief..but you dont get it.....for example: one of those refusniks is our medic.....when we needed him...it may have been against his principles but he was needed by us and he came running.....you show very little understanding of those "refusniks" more so...many of them have earned more than the right to scream their beliefs as loud as they can..they understand the toll the territories takes on the soul...and i will defend their right to scream as loud as they can...as will so many on the right and center...we can disagree but still respect them and their beliefs much of which came from personal experience.

here got a website for you:
http://www.miluimnik.co.il/pelsar460

see if you can tell me which of those guys are left/right/center or which ones should I "not defend"

[redcake]

Do I have to be able to pick someones politics out of a crowd in order for a Leftist to exist? You seem to be denying their defineable existance on one hand, while defending their freedom of speech on the other.... yet, neither of these things should be in question. What's in question is ones right to criticize the Left, and hold them to their shifty politics.

By the way - your friend the medic? He decided to take a public stand that the world now holds up as proof of Israel being a "Nazi State" guilty of human rights abuses. Good job! I assure you, his gesture has cost about as many lives as he'll ever be able to physically save in his entire lifetime. Now don't defend his right to make the statement and be and objector - I could care less - jiffy for him - so don't bother responding unless you're ready to get down and actually defend the refuseniks statement itself.

[MGB8]

You have to understand, there is a big difference between the average labourite or Shinui member and what people on this board generally refer to when the use the term "lefty" or "leftist." It refers to the far, hard, left. The post-Zionist left. The most "moderate" of those are guys like Yossi Sarrid and Yossi Beilin, who refused to see Arafat for what he was, and still refuse to see it. They don't necessarily want Israel's destruction, and may not be completely "post-Zionist," but if they are not, they are close. Then there are people to the left of them.

Some on this board consider Peres and even Rabin to be stupid, even criminally so, but they do not (generally) assault their intentions or motives. Beilin and Sarrid... they can be doubted. Uri Avnery... more so. Peace now and the checkpoint watch women or whatever they are called... ditto.

I sympathise with the average Pal Arab, too. It sucks. I don't even mind a degree of checkpoint monitoring... it keeps people honest, and keeps power in check. But when it starts coming at the expense of protecting the lives of my family... that's where it crosses the line. And the hard left in Israel, who serve as propaganda points for the Arabs in a PR War, as well as the revisionist historians and the "single-state-give-citizenship-to-all-the-arabs-who-cares-if-Israel-is-the-Jewish-homeland" Israelis...they cross that line regularly for political reasons, or simply out of fear that, if you don't give the Pal Arabs everything they want, they will win, and so our only option is to throw ourselves at their feet and beg for mercy - that is generally the not-as-hard left.

People who equate the settlers to Hamas.... that's hard left, too. TWO settlers have gone off the deep end and become murderers. No organized attack, either. If they were equal to Hamas, how many more would they be? Its a terrible comparison.

[pelsar]

Do I have to be able to pick someones politics out of a crowd in order for a Leftist to exist? You seem to be denying their defineable existance on one hand, while defending their freedom of speech on the other.... yet, neither of these things should be in question. What's in question is ones right to criticize the Left, and hold them to their shifty politics.

By the way - your friend the medic? He decided to take a public stand that the world now holds up as proof of Israel being a "Nazi State" guilty of human rights abuses. Good job! I assure you, his gesture has cost about as many lives as he'll ever be able to physically save in his entire lifetime. Now don't defend his right to make the statement and be and objector - I could care less - jiffy for him - so don't bother responding unless you're ready to get down and actually defend the refuseniks statement itself.

my point is the when wearing the IDF uniform we all defend the israel that the present govt has fashioned...be it a right or a left leaning govt....and in that we prove our loyality and respect to each other.

the lefts shifty politics is no more shifty than the rights....isnt sharon from the right?....over here its politics as usual.



damn right i will defend the refusnik to make his statements...not only do we consider that part of our democracy but those on the right will also defend his right to speak....his belief is sacred to him just as others have their own beliefs....and we believe in defending his right to speak his piece....and so we do.

and quite a few of those refusniks have a past that people like you probably fantasize over.....and that gives them more than the right to not only have their say, but have others defend their right to say it....and we do so proudly

I assure you, his gesture has cost about as many lives as he'll ever be able to physically save in his entire lifetime.

do you know whats ironic about that statement?....according to you he has (I'm making an assumption) probably endagered Israeli lives...yet its the israelis that will at the sametime defend his right to say it.

I get the impression that you never came here to actually defend the country....your big on words on who "endangers it" ...but you yourself wont come over and do something about it, if you havent ..there are volunteer programs you know..not dangerous but you can at least do something about helping the security situation by aiding in the IDFs manpower needs.

and tal?..my refusnik friend and co reservnik?......he too has too has put his life on the line to protect our borders.....and he has more than the right to his opinion and i know about 150 israelis, many who disagree with him, who wouldnt let you touch him, without first putting a couple thousand holes in you...."jiffy for him"....what have you ever done for israel?.....anything besides putting some pennies in the jnf box?

[Mediocrates]

It's the Israeli race card. When all else fails stand up and scream nigger except in this case it's "Which army did YOU serve in?" All it's meant to do is shut you up.

But we're not going to shut up any more than you yawping Sabras who think you're all that. You don't like what we have to say? Fine, pick out a nice clean Merkava and bash your sanctimonious head against it. Go it alone, be my guest. Because making enemies is just about the only goddamn thing you're good at. Maybe you think that's a virtue or a badge of honor but everyone else thinks it's pathological horsesh**t.

[pelsar]

It's the Israeli race card. When all else fails stand up and scream nigger except in this case it's "Which army did YOU serve in?" All it's meant to do is shut you up.

But we're not going to shut up any more than you yawping Sabras who think you're all that.

we do think that by actually going to the borders, actually DOING something about defending ourselves we also have to right to ask " beside talking and screaming what have you done?"...

do we make enemies?...of course because we're willing to stand up, say our peace, defend other jews who disagree with us and fight for those rights. We're not afraid of having enemies...not anymore.

but for those jews who on one hand demonize jews who have fought for israel while they themselves have done nothing more than sit in an armchair...well strikes me as slightly hypocritical......why be the hypocrite?....get off the armchair and earn the right to critize those awful lefty israelis?....of course by coming here and joing the IDF you might get educated.....and get to clean the inside of a merkava, if your lucky

[pelsar]

And the hard left in Israel, who serve as propaganda points for the Arabs in a PR War, as well as the revisionist historians and the "single-state-give-citizenship-to-all-the-arabs-who-cares-if-Israel-is-the-Jewish-homeland" Israelis...

People who equate the settlers to Hamas.... that's hard left, too.

i dont know what kind of news you get...but as far as i can tell your list above refers to about a couple hundred people in israel...many of the teens....and thats about it...that and a couple revisionist professors. They dont even make the news here....hardly the mainstream left

[redcake]

....what have you ever done for israel?.....anything besides putting some pennies in the jnf box?

Irrelevant.

Maybe it's the IDF that's poisoning your minds with their sensitivity training?
It's great that you're serving Israel, but there's no moral high ground for doing so, and it's a really poor argument considering most of the action you've seen could have been avoided if it wasn't for the Lefts mistakes.

You need to get over yourself if you think there's some criteria you can use to excuse a foolish political stance or negligent behavior.

P.S. the baseball caps make you look like a bunch of cub scouts.

[redcake]

They dont even make the news here....hardly the mainstream left

You obviously haven't been in Israel long.

Peace Now is as mainstream as it gets.

[pelsar]

You obviously haven't been in Israel long.

Peace Now is as mainstream as it gets.

and for a "mainstream" it does not have much influence and it doesnt have a monoply on the left...nor does it have the "numbers"...nor is it the bulk of the "left"

as far as this thread goes....and my service they are related. i have no patience for those who "insult the left" or the right....I've noticed that most of the people who have served have the same attitude, whereas those who havent try very hard to demonize those on the "other side"

the sensitivity training to respect your fellow jew is what others need...specifically a few on this site.

i used to have a great penthouse hat i used to wear...a gust of wind blew it over the egyptians...

http://www.vistaspinner.com/picts/images/steve-1999.jpg

[Mira]

the sensitivity training to respect your fellow jew is what others need...specifically a few on this site.

....like your friend Ophra....

[redcake]

I respect informed intelligence first and foremost. That and shrewd tolerance. Blind defense of an ideaology based on some fraternal favoritism is really misguided.

Peace Now started the whole concept of a negotiation peace process with Palestinians shortly after the Yom Kippur War. They have had a huge international influence Israel's policies. It's unfortunate you want to discuss the Left if you don't know the history of the movement.

[pelsar]

I respect informed intelligence first and foremost. That and shrewd tolerance. Blind defense of an ideaology based on some fraternal favoritism is really misguided.

Peace Now played started the whole concept of a negotiation peace process with Palestinians shortly after the Yom Kippur War. They have had a huge international influence Israel's policies. It's unfortunate you want to discuss the Left if you don't know the history of the movement.

i'm talking about today...now about peace nows past....its influence is far far less since intifada II...in fact intifada II pretty much decimated those on the left who believed a negotiation was possible.....or didnt you know that?

and its time for me to go.....(2:00am)

since many of those in the peace now movement can hardly be considered idiotes...or "misinformed"..does that mean there are those within that movement that you can respect?

[redcake]

You can't argue politics is all you want to talk about is the TODAY and the NOW. MmmShannnnti ignorance is what I call it.

The modern Leftist movement in Israel today is entirely derivative of Peace Now. You're proof of their influence, and don't even realize it.

[redcake]

since many of those in the peace now movement can hardly be considered idiotes...or "misinformed"..does that mean there are those within that movement that you can respect?

ASOLUTELY NOT. It's an idiots movement, founded by disrespectful Americans, many of which lived on English speaking Kibbutzim, and had only made aliyah just after the Yom Kippur war. They were a bunch of clowns looking to create a cause they could join, because they missed out on the real civil rights scene back home.

[Mediocrates]

but for those jews who on one hand demonize jews who have fought for israel while they themselves have done nothing more than sit in an armchair...well strikes me as slightly hypocritical......why be the hypocrite?....get off the armchair and earn the right to critize those awful lefty israelis?....of course by coming here and joing the IDF you might get educated.....and get to clean the inside of a merkava, if your lucky


Another mind reader heard from.............

[NewsGuy]

my point is the when wearing the IDF uniform we all defend the israel that the present govt has fashioned...be it a right or a left leaning govt....and in that we prove our loyality and respect to each other.
Actually, one of the main Leftists complaints is that they do not want their children to have to defend Jews in the West Bank and Gaza.

[Mediocrates]

what have you ever done for israel?.....anything besides putting some pennies in the jnf box?


What have you ever done for Judaism? Yeah never mind, I figured as much.

[MGB8]

Being in the IDF means that you are dutiful, even a hero. It does not, however, make one right. Otherwise, members of the IDF would never disagree, right?

[Reffo]

The article from the link below hits a chord with me when it talks about the capacity of some left wing Jews and Israelis to deceive themselves and be wishful thinkers. It also hits a chord when it talks about the extraordinary effort made by the lefties to "HUMANISE" their avowed enemies which is in sharp contrast to the efforts of the other side, virtually en masse, to "DE-HUMANISE" Jews and Israelis.

Nevertheless, I am not necessarily totally against what they are trying to do but I just wish that they would have more of a perspective about the real situation. I am all in favour of NOT demonising the enemies but it would be good if the left would insist on some reciprocity from them too. After all, it will never be possible to make peace with the Arabs if they don't recognise the rights and the humanity of the Jews and Israelis as well. I know it's a bit of a "Chicken and egg" situation but what about insisting and holding out for signs of good will from the Arabs too before the left decides to go overboard and excuse Arab wrongs and completely smear it's own side with guilt?

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/leftists.html

Here is an extract from the article:

The Leftist cloaks himself with lofty proclamations boring into our minds with such phrases as "Peace Now" the "Peace Process" the "Inalienable Rights of Man" etc. The selection of a word cover cloaks the wolf in the skin of a sheep. It's a wonderful disguise, for who doesn't want peace or the dignity of man. We want all of that so when our Leftist comes along with his display of seductive wares, we buy. We want his bag of tricks so badly that even when it all disappears in a puff of smoke, we are ready to buy again. Over 250 Jews dead since the handshake and we are still buying.

[minusthejihad]

In the last few months I have heard a steady stream of invites to move and live in Israel from 2 types of Israelis:

The ultra-religious ones want us to move to Israel so we can stop being bad diaspora jews, so we can claim some land and help welcome in the Messiah.

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway, though they certainly don't complain about the money we send, but they wouldn't mind if we move and join the IDF, most likely for cannon fodder.

I'm thinking, I'm pretty damn happy here surrounded by my four walls of diaspora jew guilt.

[Sheherazade]

In the last few months I have heard a steady stream of invites to move and live in Israel from 2 types of Israelis:

The ultra-religious ones want us to move to Israel so we can stop being bad diaspora jews, so we can claim some land and help welcome in the Messiah.

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway, though they certainly don't complain about the money we send, but they wouldn't mind if we move and join the IDF, most likely for cannon fodder.

I'm thinking, I'm pretty damn happy here surrounded by my four walls of diaspora jew guilt.


Amazing!
I agree with you. :D

[pelsar]

Actually, one of the main Leftists complaints is that they do not want their children to have to defend Jews in the West Bank and Gaza.


THATS RIGHT! they compain AND THEY STILL GO!!!!!

because they respect the govt decision and those that live in the settlements...and when the govt tells the security forces to remove them...those on the right will complain..but stiill do it.

[pelsar]

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway, though they certainly don't complain about the money we send, but they wouldn't mind if we move and join the IDF, most likely for cannon fodder.

Sheherazade you too huh?

I'm thinking, I'm pretty damn happy here surrounded by my four walls of diaspora jew guilt.

cannon fodder?...we dont have such a thing....join up....try to go to the commandos..if you have the will, the energy and the conviction..your in..whats the problem? I know quite a few americans who have made it into the various combat units....

sounds like someone here is "copping out" but not even willing to try.

now that i think about it.....whats wrong with you people?....a bunch of sorry excuses as opposed to actually doing something about it?....its really not so hard..and even if you dont get into combat unit, the IDF requires all kinds of dedicated people in jobs just as important

[pelsar]

Being in the IDF means that you are dutiful, even a hero. It does not, however, make one right. Otherwise, members of the IDF would never disagree, right?

being in the IDF does not make anybody right...the "points of view" are almost as varied as one sees in the general society.

What being in the IDF does...and more so the combat units is teaches you to not only get along with those you disagree with, but respect their point of view as well....it teaches you that political disagreement can be seperated from respect for the person...and then a minumum of respect for his views....that happens when that "righty or lefty or jew for jesus guy is watching your back...you learn very quickly to trust his judgement...and then trust the person...something lacking on this board

[pelsar]

ASOLUTELY NOT. It's an idiots movement, founded by disrespectful Americans, many of which lived on English speaking Kibbutzim, and had only made aliyah just after the Yom Kippur war. They were a bunch of clowns looking to create a cause they could join, because they missed out on the real civil rights scene back home.

my my my....not only dont you have the conviction to actually come to israel and do something about your beliefs like join the IDF (what was your pathetic excuse?).....and take the good and the bad, since that is what people do when they have conviction....your also a bigot who with broad strokes calls jews with whom you disagree with idiotes.

i really think you should come here...join up....maybe just maybe one of the idiotes might save your life...maybe you'll save his..maybe your best friend in basic would turn out to be a "god forbid" a lefty.....

maybe just maybe you'll learn to respect your fellow jew, even if you disagree with him....try it, its the tradition in mainstream israel.

[pelsar]

I never felt that i was on any kind of high horse and in fact i respect my fellow jew to live where he pleases..Israel is not for everyone...nor is serving in the IDF...but not with the reactions i've read here.

The bigotry and demonization I see here for those that actually do live in israel and for those on the "left" that serve..by those that dont is astounding.

and for those who proudly claim that that they prefer their "diaspora walls" as to serving in the IDF you should be ashamed at yourself...what kind of dedicated jew is so afraid?...i thought we revised our attitude....that we now fight back when our enemies come calling...but you guys....shhees....you guys remind me of that "other jew"..not only do you have a bunch of excuses not to serve, not only do you demonize many that do, not only do proclaim that the "other" endangers us....but you wont get off your collective a$$e$ and actually defend what you so loudly proclaim you believe in.

you guys are a bunch of big heros on an internet board.....sitting in your nice chairs, proclaiming your allegiance to israel and judiaism....while demonizing those that actually put their lives on the line to protect the jewish country. What are you so afraid of?

if you're afraid of coming...be a man enough to say it..instead of hiding behind such absurd statements

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway what kind of "cry baby excuse is that?....israel is not made up of just leftest.....you want right?..go to hebron you'll be welcome there with open arms..not by the soldiers but by the residents....but we also have jews from other countries as well.....maybe you'll becomes friends with a Ethiopian?

sheesh.....i hope you guys dont represent american jewry today....i get the impression that you're a bunch of bigoted cowards.

bigoted because you generalize and demonaize much of the jewish people that disagree with your own views...

cowards because, though you will scream loud for all to hear, that many of those who actually do protect israel are idiotes.... but you yourself wont..prefer to stay far far far away.

Whats wrong with you?...didnt you learn anything from the holocaust?

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway

let me revise my initial reaction to that....because your afraid of "not being liked"....thats why you cant live in israel?...thats why you cant join the
IDF...thats the extent of your conviction?..your afraid that someone wont like you and thats enough to influence what you do?.....JesusHChrist!!.....i repeat...didnt you learn anything from the holocaust?....perhaps you dont have what it takes to live here.....that in itself i have no problem with...but your loudmouthing those who do have the guts to...well ..it doesnt say much for you....

[Sheherazade]

I never felt that i was on any kind of high horse and in fact i respect my fellow jew to live where he pleases..Israel is not for everyone...nor is serving in the IDF...but not with the reactions i've read here.

The bigotry and demonization I see here for those that actually do live in israel and for those on the "left" that serve..by those that dont is astounding.

and for those who proudly claim that that they prefer their "diaspora walls" as to serving in the IDF you should be ashamed at yourself...what kind of dedicated jew is so afraid?...i thought we revised our attitude....that we now fight back when our enemies come calling...but you guys....shhees....you guys remind me of that "other jew"..not only do you have a bunch of excuses not to serve, not only do you demonize many that do, not only do proclaim that the "other" endangers us....but you wont get off your collective a$$e$ and actually defend what you so loudly proclaim you believe in.

you guys are a bunch of big heros on an internet board.....sitting in your nice chairs, proclaiming your allegiance to israel and judiaism....while demonizing those that actually put their lives on the line to protect the jewish country. What are you so afraid of?

if you're afraid of coming...be a man enough to say it..instead of hiding behind such absurd statements

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway what kind of "cry baby excuse is that?....israel is not made up of just leftest.....you want right?..go to hebron you'll be welcome there with open arms..not by the soldiers but by the residents....but we also have jews from other countries as well.....maybe you'll becomes friends with a Ethiopian?

sheesh.....i hope you guys dont represent american jewry today....i get the impression that you're a bunch of bigoted cowards.

bigoted because you generalize and demonaize much of the jewish people that disagree with your own views...

cowards because, though you will scream loud for all to hear, that many of those who actually do protect israel are idiotes.... but you yourself wont..prefer to stay far far far away.

Whats wrong with you?...didnt you learn anything from the holocaust?

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway

let me revise my initial reaction to that....because your afraid of "not being liked"....thats why you cant live in israel?...thats why you cant join the
IDF...thats the extent of your conviction?..your afraid that someone wont like you and thats enough to influence what you do?.....JesusHChrist!!.....i repeat...didnt you learn anything from the holocaust?....perhaps you dont have what it takes to live here.....that in itself i have no problem with...but your loudmouthing those who do have the guts to...well ..it doesnt say much for you....

That post defines bigotry. After a diatribe like that, this American Jew has really no desire to visit a land where her "brothers and sisters" believe her the lesser because she doesn't live there or send her children to the army there. The US is the greatest supporter of Israel, sending her billions of dollars and has a history of speaking out for Israel in the world. Now, why don't you send your children here to join the army here and fight in Iraq to 'make the world safe'.

Are there any Israelis on this forum who are not incredibly arrogant?

[pelsar]

the anger is not expressed at those who jews who dont come and live in israel....the anger is expressed those that who live outside israel and have the gall to demonize those who do defend israel just because they have a different political view.

as I said israel is not for everyone....but demonizing israelis who put their life on the line for their judaisim by those that dont is pathetic.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me, nor do i with many...but i can respect those that follow through on their beliefs...without demonizing them.

isnt that a jewish value...respect the other?

the demonization of the israeli left who have the guts to risk their lives doing things they dont believe in because the IDF have sent them to such places is hardly the person to be demonized..he is to be respected...just as is the settler/soldier in gaza last week.

what galls me is the chutzpa on this site...as well as what appears to be a character weakness. Critize us, no problem...but the disrespect to those that do...but those that dont....well thats too much......and your excuses?...come on

be honest at least: money, security, fear, friends, culture there are a zillion reasons to stay in the states.....at least have the guts to say what it is...not some pathetic excuse of "not liking some israelis"...there are quite a few american enclaves, be they right/left/center, you'll feel right at home.

[Ophra]

Are there any Israelis on this forum who are not incredibly arrogant?


I doubt it :D

[pelsar]

That post defines bigotry.

and do you think its reasonable that I should stay quiet when posters here lambast half of the israeli population as "evil leftests"...and declare how those leftests are responsable for many israeli deaths..etc etc etc....

thats not bigotry? ignorence? or worse?....and why on earth should i remain quiet when i read such garbage?...should I pretend to be the shetal jew and hope the attackers will pass by without touching me?...that belongs to a different era.

[redcake]

....your also a bigot who with broad strokes calls jews with whom you disagree with idiotes.
maybe just maybe you'll learn to respect your fellow jew, even if you disagree with him....try it, its the tradition in mainstream israel.

You're calling me a bigot?

Simply put - I don't respect people who respect Arafat. Got it? I'm not speaking in broad strokes, I'm speaking of one major organization that layed the entire groundwork for the indoctrinization of Leftist self hate you're now defending 25 years later. Learn your history. You don't even know where your tradition of exploiting your duty to gain credebility in an act of subversion against the Jewish State even derives from. There are many shades of Left...some harmless, some not so harmless.... You made this thread to defend them ALLLLLLL in one blanket swoop, going so far as to deny the existance of any such thing.

The Israelis here better check themselves. Are you all that miserable in Israel? Is that it? You just hammer home my belief that Israel is kook city. Screaming "walk in my shoes, do as I do coward" makes you all sound so phoney, and insecure. You do you, and I'll do me. Stop trying to alienate your only allies, and stop trying to force your lifestyle choices on others.

[Mediocrates]

Lots of countries have armies. In fact all the broken down middleeast states have more or less the same kind of army=citizenship relationship. The noisy Sabras are no different from anyone else. No more special, no less. They just think they're all that because of their self induced paranoia.

<yes yes why don't you come over here yadda yadda yadda.......>

[pelsar]

You're calling me a bigot?

I'm speaking of one major organization that layed the entire groundwork for the indoctrinization of Leftist self hate you're now defending 25 years later.
Learn your history. You don't even know where your tradition of exploiting your duty to gain credebility in an act of subversion against the Jewish State even derives from. There are many shades of Left...some harmless, some not so harmless.... You made this thread to defend them ALLLLLLL in one blanket swoop, going so far as to deny the existance of any such thing.
.

i made this thread because this is the first time someone has actually mentioned that there are several shades of left....

of course in the sentences previous to that you mention indocrtninization of the leftest self hate...so would you mind clarfiying yourself?...which leftest are self hate and which shades are harmless?...and have you any idea of the percentages?


tradition of exploiting your duty to gain credebility in an act of subversion against the Jewish State

you have got to be kidding?..i'm suppose to take that sentence seriously?..i am now a traitor to israel?.....

oh i'm not trying to alienate you...but i sure dont believe i nor my buddies have to take your insults.....you probably take pride in the 67 war, entebbe, targeted hits and countless other military missions that the lefties were a part of that you dont know about.....give them the respect they deserve

I don't respect people who respect Arafat

theres probably about 4 or 5 israeli jews who respect arafat...is that what your screaming is all about when you condem the "left?

[pelsar]

Lots of countries have armies. In fact all the broken down middleeast states have more or less the same kind of army=citizenship relationship. The noisy Sabras are no different from anyone else. No more special, no less. They just think they're all that because of their self induced paranoia.

<yes yes why don't you come over here yadda yadda yadda.......>
but there is only one jewish/israeli army...and we've been waiting for over 2,000 years for it....and our relationship with our citizens is unlike any other, but if you dont know that , then you really dont know "squat" about israel nor the israeli jew....try it....u might learn something about the modern jew.

[Mediocrates]

but there is only one jewish/israeli army...and we've been waiting for over 2,000 years for it....and our relationship with our citizens is unlike any other, but if you dont know that , then you really dont know "squat" about israel nor the israeli jew....try it....u might learn something about the modern jew.

Jew don't know anything about Jews. Jew know less about the socialization inside the US Army. But thanks for playing.

[redcake]

of course in the sentences previous to that you mention indocrtninization of the leftest self hate...so would you mind clarfiying yourself
tradition of exploiting your duty to gain credebility in an act of subversion against the Jewish State

you have got to be kidding?..i'm suppose to take that sentence seriously?..i am now a traitor to israel?.....


You sound like someone who could benefit from reading these posts 3 or 4 times before responding. Likewise, it's a bad idea to condemn us all as leftist haters while discounting that we actually might have very educated legit reasons for reaching these conclusions.


..you probably take pride in the 67 war, entebbe, targeted hits and countless other military missions that the lefties were a part of that you dont know about.....give them the respect they deserve

You wanna be real? You wouldn't have been allowed to serve in 1967, and neither would your friends you think I'm insulting. That's the truth. The Israeli Army didn't bend to niche politics, and their actions weren't partisan. So stop exploiting their legacy. They were able to keep their agendas off the battlefield, because they had to.

theres probably about 4 or 5 israeli jews who respect arafat...is that what your screaming is all about when you condem the "left?

Today! Now that he's dead and it's out of fashion to pretend he deserved a peace prize.... but it was far more then 4 or 5 people who promoted him as a partner for peace.

[pelsar]

You wanna be real? You wouldn't have been allowed to serve in 1967, and neither would your friends you think I'm insulting. That's the truth. The Israeli Army didn't bend to niche politics, and their actions weren't partisan. So stop exploiting their legacy. They were able to keep their agendas off the battlefield, because they had to.

you dont know much about the IDF.....if anything at all about it.....if this is an example of your knowledge...It sure does make everything your write about suspect.

and arafat...just for the record, the major change occurred in relation to the PA and arafat in paticular by the left at the start of intifada II....again you seem to lack some basic knowledge of israel....

i dont know if you've ever been here....but you sure dont know much about the country...at least according to what you write....

[MGB8]

pelsar...

we all believe that crime must be fought and fires extinguished, like you probably do. yet no one here has said that they were a fireman or police officer. And yet people can still have harsh opinions and differences about policy - especially when they think it is irresponsible, or worse.

[pelsar]

pelsar...

we all believe that crime must be fought and fires extinguished, like you probably do. yet no one here has said that they were a fireman or police officer. And yet people can still have harsh opinions and differences about policy - especially when they think it is irresponsible, or worse.

and will you condem those fireman and policeman who do their duty even though you disagree with their politics?

will you refuse to give them the respect for risking their lives even though you disagree with who they vote for?

[MGB8]

I haven't seen a condmenation of the service. I have seen condemnation of political positions that lead to evictions of Jews by Jews (and I support the pull-out), or that they believe fully either (a) will lead to the murder of more Jews by Arabs, or (b) is just much too big a risk to take regarding the increased possibility of mass murder. Then there is also the religious aspect, those who believe for religious reasons that the land must not be relinquished. Of course, you get condemnations, personal and otherwise, going the other way, too. Maybe moreso. Settlers compared to Hamas?? etc. etc.

If you think the rhetoric is too heated... fine, that's fair. If you think its important to remember that some peaceniks have put their lives on the line to defend Israel, even the settlements, and should be respected for that sacrifice... I don't think people will disagree with you there, either. But politics are politics. Sharon, for example, sacrified and risked so much of himself for Israel... and yet Meretz and Yahad demonize him like he is a worse person than Arafat. (If I got the party names wrong, my fault, it has been a little time).

[redcake]

You keep clinging to your service in the IDF because it's your only compensation for the blatant education you lack.


and arafat...just for the record, the major change occurred in relation to the PA and arafat in paticular by the left at the start of intifada II....again you seem to lack some basic knowledge of israel....


I *think* you're trying to say the Left turned their back on Arafat, and the PA after the second Intifada started ? You're kidding me right? Then why does the left support the intentions of Abbas and the current PA? Why did the new generation of Briera's and Peace Now's show outrage when Arafat was "under seige" ? Yossi Sarid of the Meretz Party and Yossi Beilen both condemned the house arrests. Peace Groups organized their first mass rallies in years, Labor party called for emergency Knesset meetings..... and on and on.

Some history for you that the IDF didn't teach you...

*Briera started in 1973, as Israels first "citizens rights movement".

*Peace Now made their original call for negotiations with the PLO 30 years ago with the slogan "peace is made between enemies".

*Peace Now placed an Ad in 1988 urging Israel to speak with the PLO. They defied Israeli law and met in secret with Arafat in Stockholm.

*In 1994 a Peace Now splinter group camped out in tents for 45 days to protest Rabin's expulsion of 415 Islamic terrorists. As a result, the group was invited to meet with Hamas leadership, Rantissi and Yassin.

*2005 Israel votes for what amounts to the original Peace Now plan.

[pelsar]

I *think* you're trying to say the Left turned their back on Arafat, and the PA after the second Intifada started ? You're kidding me right? Then why does the left support the intentions of Abbas and the current PA? Why did the new generation of Briera's and Peace Now's show outrage when Arafat was "under seige" ? Yossi Sarid of the Meretz Party and Yossi Beilen both condemned the house arrests. Peace Groups organized their first mass rallies in years, Labor party called for emergency Knesset meetings..... and on and on.

Some history for you that the IDF didn't teach you...

*Briera started in 1973, as Israels first "citizens rights movement".

*Peace Now made their original call for negotiations with the PLO 30 years ago with the slogan "peace is made between enemies".

*Peace Now placed an Ad in 1988 urging Israel to speak with the PLO. They defied Israeli law and met in secret with Arafat in Stockholm.

*In 1994 a Peace Now splinter group camped out in tents for 45 days to protest Rabin's expulsion of 415 Islamic terrorists. As a result, the group was invited to meet with Hamas leadership, Rantissi and Yassin.

*2005 Israel votes for what amounts to the original Peace Now plan.

you keep confusing the whole israeli left with peace now, etc...in fact i know very little about peace now,etc because they dont represent me...just as i know very little about the settlers rabbi in atzmona......

get over your generalizations...peace now/meretz/beilin etc dont represent the israeli left....they represent a part of it....

and that still doesnt justify demonizing them as if their wish is to destroy israel....they have a different view of it..they have sons and daughters who do their service just like those across the political spectrum does..they are part and parcel of it.

btw given your lack of knowledge of the IDF and your false claims...I'll probably have to check up on your other claims as well....who knows if your making them up as well.

if you'll excuse me this "lefty" has to now go help his friend from Atzmona (gaza)

[redcake]

No, you should check up on them because you need an education!!!!!

These are the groups that originated the principles that have been embraced as a mainstream concept within "The Left". What you're talking about now, as mister joe blow ignorant long in the tooth IDF braggart about town IS their platform, wether or not you realize it or care. Are there complex differences between the thousands of splinter groups ? SURE! Does that exhonorate their intensions, and goals from criticism? YOU WISH! Anyway, you shouldn't even be bad mouthing those nutty Hilltop Youth by your own hypocritical logic. Good luck being taken seriously in this forum again.

[Mediocrates]

So the answer to the question at the head of this is "I don't know". On the other hand what's clear and I don't think that there's a lot of dispute about this, is that Peres et. al. and the architects of Oslo forsaw an Israeli future which was neither one-state nor two-state but more of a loose confederation of Israelis and Palestinians living together under their respective brand names or identities but governed by an umbrella set of rules much like the EU. In this sense it is anti-nationalist.

[minusthejihad]

cannon fodder?...we dont have such a thing....join up....try to go to the commandos..if you have the will, the energy and the conviction..your in..whats the problem? I know quite a few americans who have made it into the various combat units....

sounds like someone here is "copping out" but not even willing to try.

now that i think about it.....whats wrong with you people?....a bunch of sorry excuses as opposed to actually doing something about it?....its really not so hard..and even if you dont get into combat unit, the IDF requires all kinds of dedicated people in jobs just as important

Let me rephrase what I wrote earlier:

The leftist Jews think we are spoiled American brats, they don't like us anyway, though they certainly don't complain about the money we send, but they feel they need to guilt us to move and join the IDF, most likely for cannon fodder.

Yeah, that will work! Look, my cousin serves in the IDF currently and when he is done, he will move here for a couple years to enjoy our lifestyle. Why don't you try to guilt him out of moving away instead.

[Mediocrates]

Well I'm 46, have some health issues, and mild treatable bipolar and Tourette's. Also partial hearing loss on side and blue-yellow color vision deficiency. Sure, give me a gun. A sword, a rock, a car. Whatever, let's F***k some S***t up.:)

[minusthejihad]

Steve (Pelsar) linked to his picture earlier in this thread, it's no surprise he needs to act like such a big, strong, cocky guy. When my parents pulled me out of the Yeshiva and put me in public school in the second grade, I used to have to walk home right past the Yeshiva Beth Yehuda (for you Steve, I lived in Southfield Manner at Lincoln and Greenfield). Every day, some of my former classmates would walk up and ask me why I left their paradise and then tried to make me feel guilty about it. I'll tell you what I was trying to tell them, even at that earlier age. "If it was soooo cool, why would you need to make people feel guilty as the only means to get them to do it? If it was sooo cool, wouldn't people want to join up on their own accord?"

Well, I'll tell you what Steve, many times in my life, I have felt the urge to get up, move to Israel, join the IDF and serve. But after reading some of your posts, I don't know what I was thinking. Like many of the other Israelis in here, guilting us into moving to Israel (or serving), you suck at PR and Marketing. Israel and the IDF are better off without you all as spokespeople. In fact, the American Jews here who try to talk us into those moves (the same ones you guys look down on because they are not Real Jews like Israelis - even your Jew Hater confidant Ophra the Real Jew), do a far better job of it and you should thank them for it.

[MGB8]

It would be a positive if we made alliyah... especially if we had money to bring with us, or at least filled a job function that was needed. However, for those who ask that foreigners make alliyah simply for demographic reasons - well, they better have like 8 kids. :D

[Mediocrates]

Most large Jewish families are like the Chabad and are entirely happly living a Jewish life here.

[pelsar]

Steve (Pelsar) linked to his picture earlier in this thread, it's no surprise he needs to act like such a big, strong, cocky guy. When my parents pulled me out of the Yeshiva and put me in public school in the second grade, I used to have to walk home right past the Yeshiva Beth Yehuda (for you Steve, I lived in Southfield Manner at Lincoln and Greenfield). Every day, some of my former classmates would walk up and ask me why I left their paradise and then tried to make me feel guilty about it. I'll tell you what I was trying to tell them, even at that earlier age. "If it was soooo cool, why would you need to make people feel guilty as the only means to get them to do it? If it was sooo cool, wouldn't people want to join up on their own accord?".

seems we should straighten out somethings here...joing the IDF or living in israel is done not out of guilt but out of conviction...or for some realizing a dream..its not for everybody....nor just because some one is living in israel does it mean they know the answers....

but and there is a but....it does give them some respect...automatically. They have decided for whatever reason to leave the "good life" and live a harder life style based on some sort of ideology based on Judaism....In addition to that some go to the IDF and have in addition a physical risk. (i wouldnt know if its "cooool" to be in the IDF...I just know its necessary)

both of those aspects are related to the defense of Judaism and israel.
I dont give a whether the person is on the right side of the line or the left side...there is a minmum of respect to be given to those people who have left the diaspora and have made a serious step towards their beliefs in terms of judiaism. It doesnt make them better or worse than other jews...but it does demand respect....its part of the zionistic ideal...and one of the lessons that came out of the holocaust.

and that goes double for those in the IDF....i cannot believe when i read jews not giving the minimum of respect to other jews who serve, reguardless of their politics...because if they served it means they have served both right and left oriented govts....

as far as my pict goes....I 'm goddam proud of myself for having made it to where i am; I am sergeant major in a recon unit in the israeli combat infantry...that may not mean much to any of you but for me and many like me it means far more than any college degree i ever earned..i'm neither big nor cocky...but i am competent

[pelsar]

So the answer to the question at the head of this is "I don't know". On the other hand what's clear and I don't think that there's a lot of dispute about this, is that Peres et. al. and the architects of Oslo forsaw an Israeli future which was neither one-state nor two-state but more of a loose confederation of Israelis and Palestinians living together under their respective brand names or identities but governed by an umbrella set of rules much like the EU. In this sense it is anti-nationalist.

never heard of that version.....as far as we understood it...it was the palestenians there and were here...each with their own state....and a nice border between the twol

[pelsar]

No, you should check up on them because you need an education!!!!!

These are the groups that originated the principles that have been embraced as a mainstream concept within "The Left". What you're talking about now, as mister joe blow ignorant long in the tooth IDF braggart about town IS their platform, wether or not you realize it or care. Are there complex differences between the thousands of splinter groups ? SURE! Does that exhonorate their intensions, and goals from criticism? YOU WISH! Anyway, you shouldn't even be bad mouthing those nutty Hilltop Youth by your own hypocritical logic. Good luck being taken seriously in this forum again.

actually i have other things i would rather do that learn about the history of a political stance that i disagee with... i also havent bothered to learn about yisrael beitenu...or for that matter Dash history and the political impact or mapiai...

your very confused...i guess it comes from making all the "left" into one easy target so that you can "demonize" all that dont fit your version of the truth.

Let me write this in plain simple english: criticise all you like, that is the basis for democracies....demonize "those that disagree with you" and you've crossed the line.....calling those on the left "traitors" dismantlers of israel, responsable for deaths is dishonoring all of those "lefties" who died protecting the country as they were sent to...which ever govt was in power.....and that i find hard to comprehend. I never met such "hatred" towards israelis except at the democratic underground.....i am surprised to read it amongs jews......i would expect a basic respect for all of those that serve and that translates into not demonizing the entire left branch of the israeli public.

the ironic thing about it...is that though we in israel get the brunt of the policies.....i cant recall such demonization within israels mainstream as i read here

[redcake]

"but and there is a but....it does give them some respect...automatically."

That's what you thought.

...and Jews used to think that living in Israel gave them some security....automatically.

Look it's great you're proud of yourself and you're really enamored with that exclusive club, the IDF, but your job is to take orders, not issue political statements. Besides - weren't you arguing that you wanted to be judged as an individual rather then a collective anyway?

"demonize "those that disagree with you" and you've crossed the line"

That's a pretty dopey slogan you got there. If I demonize anyone it's becasue *I* disagree with *THEM* not because they disagree with me. I have no problem with Palestinian self determination, but anyone who supports the legitamization of the PLO, or PA is bordering on treason in my book. I have no respect for those who use their short stay in the IDF for the political gain of an agenda which seeks to demonize the Jewish State for it's self defense. trust me you haven't lived until a Columbia University student tells you that you're a Nazi for supporting the Apartheid state then points to some inflated number of IDF soldiers who refuse to serve as the proof of how unreasonable and inhumane you are for suporting Israel.

[SteveK]

Well, I'll tell you what Steve [PELSAR], many times in my life, I have felt the urge to get up, move to Israel, join the IDF and serve. But after reading some of your posts, I don't know what I was thinking. Like many of the other Israelis in here, guilting us into moving to Israel (or serving), you suck at PR and Marketing. Israel and the IDF are better off without you all as spokespeople. In fact, the American Jews here who try to talk us into those moves (the same ones you guys look down on because they are not Real Jews like Israelis - even your Jew Hater confidant Ophra the Real Jew), do a far better job of it and you should thank them for it.


minusthejihad,

My MAZAL TOV for your upcoming wedding was quite sincere, and I wish you both a very happy and healthy and prosperous life. I hope that you saw my original good will and good wish post.

I'm afraid that aliyah is not really an issue for Madison Avenue. It's an obligation that every Jew should feel in his/her heart and Jewish soul and act on it. My experiences with Israelis prior to my aliyah (2) and after my aliyah (3,000,000) never had the hardships of encounter that you have had with me or with Pelsar.

Be sure that if I had met a SteveK or a Pelsar prior to, or just after my aliya, before voluntarily surrendering my American citzenship, I would have still made aliya and would have stayed here for a lifetime. When your heart, soul, and guts are truly involved, then you tend to find less and less and less .... excuses to raise barriers, or to blame others for them. Even an Ophra can't destroy your own will and resolve.

And, every year, that I have been living in Israel for the last 24 years, gets harder and harder for me to even think about trying to achieve the emotional velocity to escape the gravitational pull of being a Jew in my own ancestral Homeland and rejoin you in the four walls of American suburban Jewish identity. Anyways, my other options, given only my Israeli citzenship, are obviously very limited.

No amount of Yeshiva studies and prayer in America would necessarily have exposed and sensitized your Jewish soul for attaching your feet to your Homeland either. And, if you don't already feel it deep in your kishkes, well, I certainly am not aware of any remedy in suppository or enema form to put it there.

And, if witnessing live, (even from a distance by satellite) the expulsion of Zionist pioneering Jews from their homes and land, still only puts your focus on some academic political segment for discussion with endpoints from Lefty to Righty, then what else should I say to you, and sincerely mean it, but MAZAL TOV, and Have A Wonderful Life.

[minusthejihad]

minusthejihad,

My MAZAL TOV for your upcoming wedding was quite sincere, and I wish you both a very happy and healthy and prosperous life. I hope that you saw my original good will and good wish post.

Yes. Thank you!

[redcake]

There have always been some Israelis with an irrational snobbery towards Americans. You'd think it would have faded over the years, but... guess not.

[pelsar]

...and Jews used to think that living in Israel gave them some security....automatically.

Look it's great you're proud of yourself and you're really enamored with that exclusive club, the IDF, but your job is to take orders, not issue political statements. Besides - weren't you arguing that you wanted to be judged as an individual rather then a collective anyway?

"demonize "those that disagree with you" and you've crossed the line"

That's a pretty dopey slogan you got there. If I demonize anyone it's becasue *I* disagree with *THEM* not because they disagree with me. I have no problem with Palestinian self determination, but anyone who supports the legitamization of the PLO, or PA is bordering on treason in my book. I have no respect for those who use their short stay in the IDF for the political gain of an agenda which seeks to demonize the Jewish State for it's self defense. trust me you haven't lived until a Columbia University student tells you that you're a Nazi for supporting the Apartheid state then points to some inflated number of IDF soldiers who refuse to serve as the proof of how unreasonable and inhumane you are for suporting Israel.

look i understand that by not living in israel nor by ever having been in the IDF that you cannot understand the mentalities here especially that of the israeli left...that is both obviouse and understandable...book reading is simply not enough...at the sametime it is you who is not understanding...just as you mentioned "I havent lived until I've been called a nazi.." and dont know the feeling (though i have been called a babykiller..)


anyway..the reason for the thread, was the blanket condemnation of the entire israeli left as "terrorist supporters " not about me, the individual, etc that i was reading here....and that was put on over 50% of the israeli population...a statement which is as much as a lie as other anti israeli statement such as it being an arparthied state..and in my mind the exact samething.

Its an incredbily stuiped and insulting statement....and the ugly emotions that i was reading was more appropriate for the usual anti israeli/jew websites.

You want to call the far left traitors...fine with me...samething for the hilltop youth....just dont include the general settler population nor include the tel aviv, beer drinking, party going israeli youth who also just finished 3 years in jenin.

as far as the "short stay in the IDF"..for some of use its 3 long years for others its 20.....and for many it leaves it mark for stronger than a comparable stay at a university in the states...try asking a US vet if you want somekind of an idea....(he might laugh at you though for asking)

and just for the info since you've never asked.....most of the israeli "left" is concentrated between shinui and labor......and most of the israeli left "turned right" when intifada II opened up.

if you want to really understand citizen "left" politics you'll have to look at the IDF reserves....Though percentages are now varying, in general the israeli reserves held a high concentration of those from the "left", for a variety of reasons, (settlers usually do reserves in their own settlement thereyby taking them out of the general reserves man-power pool)

during intifada I there was a gray rebellion...IDF units had trouble with people not coming to the reserves for a variety of reason (tests, travel, etc). During Intifada II and until today, the reserve units have more than 100% reporting for duty with people volunteering who were already released.

the point is...when intifada II started, the majority of the israeli "left"....was no longer the "left" that you still think of it as.....wake up and understand that what left of "peace now" etc is only a fraction of what it once was.

do you really believe that the israeli "left" trusts or believes in the PLO, or PA? is so, again your living an illusion (and no uri avenry does not represent mainstream left)....whereas it might be an easy target for you to "blame the left" for all of israels woes.....you should adjust your sites...your target has moved and shrunk

..and Jews used to think that living in Israel gave them some security....automatically.
no we never had that illusion.....we just like the idea of fighting back in this century as opposed to our long history of appeasment.

and the "looking down at american jews" is also a false statement....i think that we have a tendancy and a good one to react agressivly to when were demonized, be it from antisemites or anybody else for that matter.....call half the population of israel "traitors" and the wrath you get is justified...disrespect those who died protecting israels borders and citizens and yes you will get "called out on it"....and i dont believe we have to apologise or "take it" from anyone.....be it american/brit/jew/goy/mormon etc

[Mira]

I don't have these issues about this whole "left" and "right" discussion. What I see as being the most divisive problem is the blanket stereotyping of either religious or secular Jews. I'm not sure how to bridge this gap. And for ther record, I think both American and Israeli Jews are too damn arrogant, both of us in our own ways.

[Mira]

minusthejihad,

My MAZAL TOV for your upcoming wedding was quite sincere, and I wish you both a very happy and healthy and prosperous life. I hope that you saw my original good will and good wish post.

I'm afraid that aliyah is not really an issue for Madison Avenue. It's an obligation that every Jew should feel in his/her heart and Jewish soul and act on it. My experiences with Israelis prior to my aliyah (2) and after my aliyah (3,000,000) never had the hardships of encounter that you have had with me or with Pelsar.

Be sure that if I had met a SteveK or a Pelsar prior to, or just after my aliya, before voluntarily surrendering my American citzenship, I would have still made aliya and would have stayed here for a lifetime. When your heart, soul, and guts are truly involved, then you tend to find less and less and less .... excuses to raise barriers, or to blame others for them. Even an Ophra can't destroy your own will and resolve.

And, every year, that I have been living in Israel for the last 24 years, gets harder and harder for me to even think about trying to achieve the emotional velocity to escape the gravitational pull of being a Jew in my own ancestral Homeland and rejoin you in the four walls of American suburban Jewish identity. Anyways, my other options, given only my Israeli citzenship, are obviously very limited.

No amount of Yeshiva studies and prayer in America would necessarily have exposed and sensitized your Jewish soul for attaching your feet to your Homeland either. And, if you don't already feel it deep in your kishkes, well, I certainly am not aware of any remedy in suppository or enema form to put it there.

And, if witnessing live, (even from a distance by satellite) the expulsion of Zionist pioneering Jews from their homes and land, still only puts your focus on some academic political segment for discussion with endpoints from Lefty to Righty, then what else should I say to you, and sincerely mean it, but MAZAL TOV, and Have A Wonderful Life.

I think this is one of your best posts, Steve.

[redcake]

..the reason for the thread, was the blanket condemnation of the entire israeli left as "terrorist supporters " not about me, the individual, etc that i was reading here....and that was put on over 50% of the israeli population...

You're the one applying the criticism to 50% of Israel's population, and asking us to qualify all commentary on this group with the politically correct "SOME LEFTISTS". Most of us are mature enough that we don't need to be babied, and can understand the shorthand. It's how you use the phrase "the left" or "the religious" not the phrase itself. Learn something about CONTEXT.

I agree with Mira, that there's a fine line, but seeing as secular Israel has dictated the nations policies for years, they will be under scrutiny. The far Left radical politics of 1973 have now become accepted as mainstream, even moderate. They still represent the ideals of the Left, EVEN if the pendulum has swung. You can claim the Left has made a move towards the Right in the wake of the Intifada, but have they given up their original Peace Now era ideals? A PLO State for Palestinians. They just use less crude language. It's up to you if that hits home or not... but it is still a Leftist concept. It originated from the Left, and it's main proponents in pushing the policy through were Leftists. Know your history and recognize the lineage of your own politics. It sounds like Leftists have abandoned certain rhetoric over the years, and they're too embarassed over their past platforms to take responsibility. I could give a hoot what party they represent this week, or who likes who, and who marches with who this month. The many shades of Left DO have certain commonalities.

I have family who were founding members of Peace Now, and other family who were Senior Officers in the IDF during the Six Day War. Otherwise, my opinions stand for themselves, and I'm normally prone to arguing on the side of diversity. I do take some pleasure knowing I insulted you though.

Meanwhile, the irony here is you didn't respond to a specific attack on Leftists you found particularly offensive, you just responded in broad generalized terms. Seriously, this conversation is so 2001. Lay off the inhale.

[frizzer1]

Lets put it this way,

a leftist is someone who ignores reality (ie. what the Arabs are saying) because they so much want an imaginary peace.

a leftist worries more about the "rights" of the people trying to kill him and his family than he worries about the "rights" of his family and himself.

a leftist believes wholeheartedly in the idea "if we leave them alone, they will leave us alone," regardless of the reality of that statement.

more specific examples: a leftist applies standards to Israel that he does not apply to any other nation on earth, outraged about Israel's self defense while quiet about things like Sudan, or what goes on in the Arab world, etc.

a leftist justifies terrorism and mass murder and equates it to Israeli self defense... or even to Israeli checkpoints and curfews... as being more or less the same.

a leftist believes everything the Pal Arab propagandists and narrative has to say, and distrusts everything the Israeli and/or US government has to say, without actually bothering to look at the recorded history or the relative truth values of the statements (see Uri Avnery) because he WANTS to side against Israel.

A leftist buys the line that all the terrorism is because of "the occupation," even though the PLO was formed before the occupation began, had renounced the WB and Gaza, and the leftist forgets all the talk about the plan of phases and Oslo as a trojan horse... much less paying attention to Hamas, IJ, or the Pal Arab polls, TV, Mosque Sermons, etc.... and they forget why the occupation even began in the first place.

In short, a leftist is a person who is so afraid of having to live in a world where you must constantly be vigilant to survive... who desires normalcy so much... that they are willing to risk their friends and family to pretend that the enemy is just a bunch of reasonable people (which some, no doubt, are) and ignore the reality of the hate fest that is the enemy political machine, and very much reflected in the attitudes of the people. They are willing to take major gambles with the lives of their friends and family to gamble on illusions of peace... and will justify the enemy's actions and lies to a vast extent, instead of treating the enemy like an equal, and demanding the other be accountable for their actions, and or using force to, well, force peace.

Very good summary.
I would add that the left supports whomever they consider to be the underdog, no matter what they do or don't do.
The underdog is automatically the victim and the other side the oppressor regardless of what either side does.
When israel was considered the underdog prior to 67 the left supported her.Should israel be on the verge of extinction,with millions of jews dead, the left will support her once again.
My description of the left applies to europe and North America, not the left in israel.

Pelsar.
I would ask how you define an Israeli leftist? And what do you personally think of them?
I apologise if this has already been covered in this thread but I haven't got the time to read all of it right now.
My only problem with you is that you use your service in the IDf as a weapon to bludgeon us with.I respect the fact that you serve and put yourself on the line.I respect everyone in the IDF regardless of their political leanings.
However I am getting aggravated by the continual bashing of those of us who don't live in israel.There are reasons, you know.Things like responsibilities and obligations.For some it's easier to fly away to israel and leave those obligations to others.
My view of the israeli left is that they are so optimistic and trusting of other human beings that they become dangerously irresponsible.
Love and hope are wonderful.The reality is that the arabs want all of Israel.
History has proven this over and over.Why should I expect something different from them now?

[pelsar]

I would ask how you define an Israeli leftist? And what do you personally think of them?

My only problem with you is that you use your service in the IDf as a weapon to bludgeon us with.I respect the fact that you serve and put yourself on the line.I respect everyone in the IDF regardless of their political leanings.
However I am getting aggravated by the continual bashing of those of us who don't live in israel.
.
My view of the israeli left is that they are so optimistic and trusting of other human beings that they become dangerously irresponsible.


first my service....i got pissed when not so much me, but my fellow soldiers were being insulted for being "leftest" as if they blood wasnt as red as those on the right, by people who have never served.....the insulting of them was for me "mind boggling" as much as it was a shock to read some generalizations that "lefties" avoiding army service etc....since I serve with many "lefties"...

personally, i dont see israel being for everyone, nor do i believe every jew would like it here...theres no reason to feel guilty for not living here....(but then i do request one doesnt demonize half the population for being traitors/insult the soldiers in the IDF...while not living here...I find that rather hypocritical).

as far as the "typical israeli leftest....the ones I know are zionists who do their army service, care about their country and want a seperation between them and the palestenains.....that description above seems to fit also the center and center right in some instances....so if there is a difference it will be more in the social welfare aspects of govt...but then again....if a factory closes in a Likud town...all of a sudden there calling in the histradut....so our right and left are a bit mixed up.

the main stream israeli left doesnt trust the palestenians, doesnt really give a sh¡t about them...their concern is for the values of israelis. Basically the left wants a nice big wall between israel and the palestenians, doesnt believe it possible to control a population that doesnt accept us, and that our controlling is destroying ourselves....one example is that the checkpoints, or the protecting of some of the more extremists settlers during various "confrontations" results in creating a very cruel and cold "steak" in many of the soldiers who are only 18-20yrs old...a requirement when they tell a 65yr sick old palestenian lady being held up by her 13yr old daughter that she cant go see her daughter who just gave birth because her pass is 30minutes out of date...it may be necessary, it may protect israelis from being blown up...but to tell an old lady that and remain steadfast requires some personality modifications.

In fact that same "cold streak' was felt by the settlers in gaza as they tried to return to get their stuff during the closure and in fact it was one of their major complaints against the IDF.

thats what the main streamisraeli left is all about...the israeli left is not about "love and peace, its not about caring for the enemy etc...its about preserving jewish values and humanitarian values.....and for that the left wants seperation from the palestenians.....those who tell you different, probably dont live in israel.

the above listing that your quoted that describe the "left" is probably more appropriate for the american left, or israeli extremists, because it hardly describes israeli mainstream left

[pelsar]

-------------------
You wanna be real? You wouldn't have been allowed to serve in 1967, and neither would your friends you think I'm insulting. That's the truth. The Israeli Army didn't bend to niche politics, and their actions weren't partisan. So stop exploiting their legacy. They were able to keep their agendas off the battlefield, because they had to.

I have family who were founding members of Peace Now, and other family who were Senior Officers in the IDF during the Six Day War. Otherwise, my opinions stand for themselves, and I'm normally prone to arguing on the side of diversity. I do take some pleasure knowing I insulted you though..

...in your fever to insult me, i'm afraid your making a fool out of yourself

i really cant believe 1) that your pursuring the" I wouldnt have been allowed to serve" from where does that come from?....I've got a whole set of family and their friends who "think like me, who have served in the pal yam/palmach and later the IDF navy and army (includes the late head of the navy.....yochi ben noon), who fought starting from pre 48, others who have served, still serve........what are you talking about?.....sheehs ....that statement of yours that "thats the truth"...is really absurd....i would love your for you to expand upon it....what "truth"

2), you have missed the entire and mean the entire reason for my thread....and that not only do we keep politics out when were in uniform, whom ever we are...(its almost in every one of my threads when relevant)...but that blanket insults of the left as traitors etc dishonors and insults all those lefties that died, while in uniform fighting for israel.(which relates to keeping politics out when in uniform)...perhaps you got your threads mixed up?

[redcake]

Ok, now you're claiming the Left doesn't exist because Israel is one big Moderate group hug? Get out of here.

We know some soldiers chose to subvert their duties, allowing their names to be used in an international publicity stunt. It was an act spearheaded by Leftist groups, and that was the reason I brought it up, in response to your pathetic claim that IDF service comes with political purity which deserves respect.

If you served in 1967...or 1973...you could NOT bring your personal ideals with you....subversion was not tolerated....and anyone who tells you different is lying. Based on what we know of your beliefs, I can tell you that the old Israeli Army would have deemed you unfit to serve, and treated you like loony bin material. Israel was a different place. It matters, because you're exploiting the honor of the IDF's great achievments from 30 years ago in order to support your personal politics in 2005. The Leftist politics that we know today barely even existed during that period (and aren't you arguing they barely exist even today?) It wasn't until 1978 that 315 soldiers demanded selective service, and won themselves desk jobs. Yesh Gvul came about in 1982, with reservists refusing to serve in Lebanon. I respect your bravery, but I do not automatically respect your politics, or the way you live your civilian life, or anyyyyyything else about you as an individual, unless you prove it's deserving that respect.

Now I'm repeating myself - I've made myself very clear.

[pelsar]

If you served in 1967...or 1973...you could NOT bring your personal ideals with you....subversion was not tolerated....and anyone who tells you different is lying.


Based on what we know of your beliefs, I can tell you that the old Israeli Army would have deemed you unfit to serve, and treated you like loony bin material.

obviously you dont know my beliefs....but i get the impression from your reactions to my writing that your not really reading them...

as far as "personal ideals... the IDF, generally tends to keep a low profile about it...unless it "gets out of hand.

It probably started in a public way with the high school letter to golda during the war of attrition...in the 70's....I understand that those kids served. Other than that...if you knew the IDF you would know that they prefer that the individual units take care of their own....sometimes they get shifted out to a different units, sometimes discharged,...the larger group publicity only came later with yesh gvul in 82.

obviously your definition of "subversion" is not that of past and present serving IDF officers.....and i doubt my father in law is lying...group political discussions late at night was actually part of the culture within the PalYam/palmach.....a tradition that continued and continues within the IDF today....what do you think reservists talk about when on a look out together for 24 hours ...their morgages? and thats been happening since pre statehood.



funniest discussion i witnessed in gaza ON DUTY involved a jew for jesus (medic) a soon to be refusnik (second medic) our unit commander (resident of gaza and myself....pure politics and religion.... that probably wouldnt have happened in pre 73 israel...that much I'll give you...but the rest?...politics has always been within the IDF...they just handle it smartly and quietly.

but I do not automatically respect your politics
that i have no problem with....as i shrug my shoulders....belief and politics are a very individual thing....and on a personal level I can take being disagreed with...or hated as the case may be....

I'm not arguing that the left doesnt exist today...but the difference between pre oslo and post intifada II is major....theres been a shift on the right to go more moderate center...and the left went to the right..to moderation as well.

like i said...check the reserve unit numbers...i just got a letter from my unit saying that for our next callup (soon) can choose which half of our service we want to do..meaning so many have showed up that everyone is only doing half the time required.....a very very different atmosphere from during intifada I....where even leaves where hard to get....and my unit is full of those "lefties"....

[KettleWhistle]

IMO, the problem with the leftist is the "everything for sale" ideology. And this is more of the issue with what I call the "neo-left." That is those leftists who no longer care for socioeconomic issues of protecting the poor, improving workplace conditions, promoting art and high culture, and instead define themselves by putting down their own and sympathising with the enemy. There are lines that need to be drawn. Backstubbing fellow Jews, shotting at your own Altalena-style, caring more for foreigners who colonized our native land than for own people are the ugly aspects of neo-left that deserve the resentment they get from those who start seeing them for what they really are.

[drdon]

obviously you dont know my beliefs....but i get the impression from your reactions to my writing that your not really reading them...

as far as "personal ideals... the IDF, generally tends to keep a low profile about it...unless it "gets out of hand.

It probably started in a public way with the high school letter to golda during the war of attrition...in the 70's....I understand that those kids served. Other than that...if you knew the IDF you would know that they prefer that the individual units take care of their own....sometimes they get shifted out to a different units, sometimes discharged,...the larger group publicity only came later with yesh gvul in 82.

obviously your definition of "subversion" is not that of past and present serving IDF officers.....and i doubt my father in law is lying...group political discussions late at night was actually part of the culture within the PalYam/palmach.....a tradition that continued and continues within the IDF today....what do you think reservists talk about when on a look out together for 24 hours ...their morgages? and thats been happening since pre statehood.



funniest discussion i witnessed in gaza ON DUTY involved a jew for jesus (medic) a soon to be refusnik (second medic) our unit commander (resident of gaza and myself....pure politics and religion.... that probably wouldnt have happened in pre 73 israel...that much I'll give you...but the rest?...politics has always been within the IDF...they just handle it smartly and quietly.

but I do not automatically respect your politics
that i have no problem with....as i shrug my shoulders....belief and politics are a very individual thing....and on a personal level I can take being disagreed with...or hated as the case may be....

I'm not arguing that the left doesnt exist today...but the difference between pre oslo and post intifada II is major....theres been a shift on the right to go more moderate center...and the left went to the right..to moderation as well.

like i said...check the reserve unit numbers...i just got a letter from my unit saying that for our next callup (soon) can choose which half of our service we want to do..meaning so many have showed up that everyone is only doing half the time required.....a very very different atmosphere from during intifada I....where even leaves where hard to get....and my unit is full of those "lefties"....

================================================== ===

pelsar.....you have my endless respect and admiration and...

YOU ARE 1000% SPOT ON !!!

The word "leftist" in israel is not the same as the 'peace now' crowd in israel. Unfortunately to some Schumer,Boxer and Feinstein here are part of the peace now crowd since they are liberals.....nothing could be further from the truth.

Sorry some here want to make this a R vs. L issue....and cant see the truth.


You have my ENDLESS RESPECT ANDADMIRATION .

time to up my order....www.pizzaidf.com

Everyone here should.

[drdon]

Lets put it this way,

a leftist is someone who ignores reality (ie. what the Arabs are saying) because they so much want an imaginary peace..
total nonsense

a leftist worries more about the "rights" of the people trying to kill him and his family than he worries about the "rights" of his family and himself..
too silly to respond

a leftist believes wholeheartedly in the idea "if we leave them alone, they will leave us alone," regardless of the reality of that statement..
nonsense

more specific examples: a leftist applies standards to Israel that he does not apply to any other nation on earth, outraged about Israel's self defense while quiet about things like Sudan, or what goes on in the Arab world, etc..
i'm sorry....wrong again


a leftist justifies terrorism and mass murder and equates it to Israeli self defense... or even to Israeli checkpoints and curfews... as being more or less the same...
wrong again

a leftist believes everything the Pal Arab propagandists and narrative has to say, and distrusts everything the Israeli and/or US government has to say, without actually bothering to look at the recorded history or the relative truth values of the statements (see Uri Avnery) because he WANTS to side against Israel.
im speechless



A leftist buys the line that all the terrorism is because of "the occupation," even though the PLO was formed before the occupation began, had renounced the WB and Gaza, and the leftist forgets all the talk about the plan of phases and Oslo as a trojan horse... much less paying attention to Hamas, IJ, or the Pal Arab polls, TV, Mosque Sermons, etc.... and they forget why the occupation even began in the first place..
nope.


In short, a leftist is a person who is so afraid of having to live in a world where you must constantly be vigilant to survive... who desires normalcy so much... that they are willing to risk their friends and family to pretend that the enemy is just a bunch of reasonable people (which some, no doubt, are) and ignore the reality of the hate fest that is the enemy political machine, and very much reflected in the attitudes of the people. They are willing to take major gambles with the lives of their friends and family to gamble on illusions of peace... and will justify the enemy's actions and lies to a vast extent, instead of treating the enemy like an equal, and demanding the other be accountable for their actions, and or using force to, well, force peace.

With all due respect,and you and I agree on so much, these are the silliest generalizations i think i have ever read. I am a proud liberal who stands 2nd to none here on my support of israel and anti-terrorstinians. Now there are a few loony libs that make alot of noise, but trust me i know way tooo many libs whose support of israel is above reproach.

Honestly, i am ELATED/HAPPY/ENTHRALLED that both the right and the left in the US have ardent supporters of israel. Thats the way it should be TO INSURE ISRAEL'S SURVIVAL.

Rather than making generalizations,how about calling them the "extreme left wing"....and i promise never to bring up Pat Buchanan and David Duke.(just kidding) :D

[MGB8]

Dron...

Please understand that when people use "leftist" on this board they do not mean "liberal" or "someone with progressive economic policies" or "someone who believes into taking account the Palestinian condition, claims, etc."

That's not what the term "leftist" implies. Those above statements are what most would consider "center-left." Medio, for example, is progressive in his economics. So am I, for that matter, although moderately so. Moreover, most (though not everyone) understands and sympathises with the Arabs who have to endure checkpoints and curfews and violence, even understand their desire for lands that they claim, and to not be ruled by a foreign ethnicity... but they also note that most of the complained of measures came after the 2nd intifadah started, that they are more or less necessary to protect Israeli lives, and they also balance Jewish claims against this.

Even those who believe in greater Israel and Arab Expulsion don't do so because they don't think the Pal Arabs should have a state. On the contrary, they believe that the Pal Arabs ALREADY HAVE A STATE: Jordan. I don't fully agree, but there is logic there.

But, again, "leftist", as used on this board, is more or less what I described above.

[drdon]

Dron...

Please understand that when people use "leftist" on this board they do not mean "liberal" or "someone with progressive economic policies" or "someone who believes into taking account the Palestinian condition, claims, etc."

That's not what the term "leftist" implies. Those above statements are what most would consider "center-left." Medio, for example, is progressive in his economics. So am I, for that matter, although moderately so. Moreover, most (though not everyone) understands and sympathises with the Arabs who have to endure checkpoints and curfews and violence, even understand their desire for lands that they claim, and to not be ruled by a foreign ethnicity... but they also note that most of the complained of measures came after the 2nd intifadah started, that they are more or less necessary to protect Israeli lives, and they also balance Jewish claims against this.

Even those who believe in greater Israel and Arab Expulsion don't do so because they don't think the Pal Arabs should have a state. On the contrary, they believe that the Pal Arabs ALREADY HAVE A STATE: Jordan. I don't fully agree, but there is logic there.

But, again, "leftist", as used on this board, is more or less what I described above.

Like i said.....we agree on a whole lot.

Except your definition of leftist.

How about calling them "the extreme looony left" and we agree on everything else? Deal??

[MGB8]

Ok, drdon... I will use the the phrase "E.L.L." :D

Deal.

[SteveK]

Dron...

Please understand that when people use "leftist" on this board they do not mean "liberal" or "someone with progressive economic policies" or "someone who believes into taking account the Palestinian condition, claims, etc."

That's not what the term "leftist" implies. Those above statements are what most would consider "center-left." Medio, for example, is progressive in his economics. So am I, for that matter, although moderately so. Moreover, most (though not everyone) understands and sympathises with the Arabs who have to endure checkpoints and curfews and violence, even understand their desire for lands that they claim, and to not be ruled by a foreign ethnicity... but they also note that most of the complained of measures came after the 2nd intifadah started, that they are more or less necessary to protect Israeli lives, and they also balance Jewish claims against this.

Even those who believe in greater Israel and Arab Expulsion don't do so because they don't think the Pal Arabs should have a state. On the contrary, they believe that the Pal Arabs ALREADY HAVE A STATE: Jordan. I don't fully agree, but there is logic there.

But, again, "leftist", as used on this board, is more or less what I described above.


MGB8,

You are for the disengagement of Gaza. (I didn't say expulsion because you might flip out in your next post to me given you current hysteria).

You don't agree that Jordan is the Palestinian state.

But....

MGB8 for/on the defense:

Meanwhile, you are shrill towards me even as I fight for Israel by doing Hasbarrah here in the states, to try to convince Americans that Israel is in the right and needs supporting, and not to be left to the wolves. But what would you care about that, right, Israel is %100 self-suffficent, it doesn't need political support or economic ties. Right?

So, what is your "hasbarrah" for Israel going to achieve? You seem to passively support exactly what the wolves are actively barking for in their shrill cries against the backdrop of the moon in the dark of the night.

[MGB8]

A more basic goal, Steve. Something I'm afraid many don't understand.

The basic principle that Israel HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST is under attack. Its under attack in high schools, in colleges, even among Jews.

If Israel has the right to exist, then Israel has the right to defend itself, and then Israel can have legitimate claims to keeping the WB and Gaza... at least those are legitimate positions that can be defended (even if you don't agree.)

If Israel has the right to exist, Americans, Europeans, will respect sovereign actions of Israel to a large degree.

But, if they start being convinced that Israel has no right to exist.. andd that is the quiet assault that is happening... not just about the WB and Gaza... well then...

Sadly, we are back to square one. Making sure Israel has enough power, friends, and support just to survive.

[drdon]

Ok, drdon... I will use the the phrase "E.L.L." :D

Deal.

Coool....i'm going to invite about 10 of my friends here who are libs/left of center/dems who are in total agreement with your views and have in some cases stronger views on israel than you and me...if thats possible.

(if one of them advocates 'nuking the terrorstinian bastards' please forgive him....he gets a little emotional)

[MGB8]

Oh, and I agree that the settlers are being expelled from their homes in Gaza. It breaks my heart. I don't hate them, nor do I begrudge them their anger or sense of betrayal. I just feel that, tactically, it is necessary for the most important goal - the continued survival of Israel. Gaza means nothing if there is no Israel. The demographic weapon is the Arabs most powerful tool. And, you are right, I am not willing, at least not in this stage of my life, to move to Israel. You can fault me and be angry with me for it - that's fine. But I am not. Not would I be willing to have 6-8 kids when I got there. Neither are most American Jews. Nonetheless, there are other things we can do. Its not all or nothing.

I'm not so anti expulsion - not of Jews from Gaza nor Arabs from this place or that during the 48 fighting. There are broader realities that trump the wishis of individuals.

[drdon]

And, you are right, I am not willing, at least not in this stage of my life, to move to Israel. You can fault me and be angry with me for it - that's fine. But I am not. Not would I be willing to have 6-8 kids when I got there. Neither are most American Jews. Nonetheless, there are other things we can do. Its not all or nothing.

oh yeah???....but if israel needed YOU , you'd be on the first plane out...

Am i wrong?

[MGB8]

No, you are not wrong. If I was needed... hell, if the big war broke out and they just needed bodies, I would go.

[drdon]

No, you are not wrong. If I was needed... hell, if the big war broke out and they just needed bodies, I would go.

like i said, we agree on a whole alot. :D

[SteveK]

A more basic goal, Steve. Something I'm afraid many don't understand.

The basic principle that Israel HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST is under attack. Its under attack in high schools, in colleges, even among Jews.

If Israel has the right to exist, then Israel has the right to defend itself, and then Israel can have legitimate claims to keeping the WB and Gaza... at least those are legitimate positions that can be defended (even if you don't agree.)

If Israel has the right to exist, Americans, Europeans, will respect sovereign actions of Israel to a large degree.

But, if they start being convinced that Israel has no right to exist.. andd that is the quiet assault that is happening... not just about the WB and Gaza... well then...

Sadly, we are back to square one. Making sure Israel has enough power, friends, and support just to survive.


MGB8,

We know here already in Israel that our country is within attacking distance of these Arab countries. We know that the Arabs want to destroy Israel and the Jews here. We know that fully Islam and partially Christianity fuel, ignite, and fan the hatreds of such concern to you for our welfare here.

Though, the actions of the Israeli government over the last decade don't address effectively such reality.

But, that's life in the big (actually very tiny) Jewish country. I say it again and again and again that in the final cold analysis, the real enemy of the Jews is the Jews, themselves.

We need millions of you and your billions of dollars that you can bring for investment here with the liquidation of your community assets now used for your own American suburban Jewish identity.

I would tell these high school kids who challenge the right of the existence of Israel the same thing myself. I would tell them that I don't blame them or their parents, but I blame the diaspora Jews as the decisive cause for our problems here in Israel because you are there and not here.

But, you all keep telling the world that your Judaism and your Jewish identity doesn't need Israel,--- doesn't require for you to visit Israel let alone live here. This is the "hasbara" that the world is actually hearing. Your American president understands this just in knowing that millions of his Jewish AMerican constituents are safe and happy in their American suburbs and four walls of Jewish identity with your synagogues, community centers, Hebrew schools, and Zionist childrens' camps.

Actions speak louder than your words of "hasbara".

Now, if we were talking about a mass Exodus of Jews from America to Israel, then we can really talk. Update me on your next post with the progress.

[redcake]

The word "leftist" in israel is not the same as the 'peace now' crowd in israel. Unfortunately to some Schumer,Boxer and Feinstein here are part of the peace now crowd since they are liberals.....nothing could be further from the truth.

Peace Now are and wer always a Leftist group. One which formed in Israel, and established regional offices in the United States during the 80's.

If Peace Now aren't Leftists, then who are they? And if Leftists are trumpeting the Peace Now agenda, what's the difference what name they go by?

[drdon]

Peace Now are and wer always a Leftist group. One which formed in Israel, and established regional offices in the United States during the 80's.

If Peace Now aren't Leftists, then who are they? And if Leftists are trumpeting the Peace Now agenda, what's the difference what name they go by?

Learner and chomsky and the other peace now crowd are extreme looony left that are not representitive of the vast majority of dems/libs.

Call these clowns "the EXTREME LOOONY LEFT"

[redcake]

Learner and chomsky and the other peace now crowd are extreme looony left that are not representitive of the vast majority of dems/libs.

Call these clowns "the EXTREME LOOONY LEFT"

Lerner and Chomsky are in America. We're discussing Israel.

Chomsky's politics have no resemblance to Peace Now's.

Let's try a different approach - is it fair to say that the majority of Leftists were at the forefront of supporting, and now mourning Rabin's efforts? Well, what is the difference between Rabin's platform, and that of Peace Now, and their many derivative splinter groups ?

[NewsGuy]

Lerner and Chomsky are in America. We're discussing Israel.

Chomsky's politics have no resemblance to Peace Now's.

Let's try a different approach - is it fair to say that the majority of Leftists were at the forefront of supporting, and now mourning Rabin's efforts? Well, what is the difference between Rabin's platform, and that of Peace Now, and their many derivative splinter groups ?

That's an interesting question, because the answer is almost unbelievable.

Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin has become an unlikely patron-Saint of the Israeli Leftist movement. I say unlikely, because in today’s terms Rabin would not be considered a Leftists at all. These days, Rabin's positions would make him more right-wing than Sharon.

Rabin actually greatly disagreed with the politics of today's Leftists.

Specifically, Rabin was 100% against establishing a Palestinian state. His position was that if the Palestinians could demonstrate that they can live as civilized people and reject terrorism, then they would be given "something more than autonomy but less than a state." Those were Rabin's words and they are contrary to the position of the Israeli Left, which does support a Palestinian state, even though the Palestinians continue to be a terrorist entity.

Rabin also vowed to never dismantle the Gaza settlements, which he supported and helped build. Again, this is a position that is contrary to that of the Leftists who have always salivated at the idea of being able to expel the Jewish residents of Gaza.

But Rabin reluctantly supported the Oslo agreement. His own estimation was that the Palestinians would never have the nerve to use the very same weapons he gave them to police their own citizens, to commit acts of terrorism against Israelis, as actually happened. He was an optimist, and he was absolutely wrong.

Nonetheless, Rabin was singing songs for peace when he was assassinated by a right-wing extremist. This, plus implementing a peace agreement that cost the lives of more than a thousand Jews are things that the Left could relate to.

So Rabin's memory was systematically hijacked and history was rewritten by the Leftists who adopted Saint Rabin as the symbol of their struggle to hand over parts of the Jewish homeland to Islamic terrorists, even at the cost of thousands of innocent Jewish victims.

I think that Rabin himself would be shocked at this turn of events.

[pelsar]

So Rabin's memory was systematically hijacked and history was rewritten by the Leftists who adopted Saint Rabin as the symbol of their struggle to hand over parts of the Jewish homeland to Islamic terrorists, even at the cost of thousands of innocent Jewish victims.

I think that Rabin himself would be shocked at this turn of events.

which leftest are your refering too....this place is very confusing when it comes to the "left side" of israel

[NewsGuy]

which leftest are your refering too....this place is very confusing when it comes to the "left side" of israel
pelsar,

I think that you're the only one in Israel that is confused about this issue.

Every Israeli will tell you instantly whether Left, Center or Right, and even to what degree they are each of those.

[pelsar]

pelsar,

I think that you're the only one in Israel that is confused about this issue.

Every Israeli will tell you instantly whether Left, Center or Right, and even to what degree they are each of those.

from what i've read here...the americans are quite sure in their definition of the israeli leftest, and it appears to be an extreme view...kind of like refering to those on the right as equivalent to the hilltopyouth

the israelis here seem to disagree

[redcake]

The Hilltop Youth are the radical right. We have carefully explained the type of politics many of us believe portray the mainstream Israeli Left ....and that is who we are referencing....because yes, even in America, we can differentiate between the Left, and the radical nutcase far-Left. You've responded by saying you can't even differentiate between Lefitst Israel, and Moderate Israel.
Whatever the terminology (and I can't see why it makes a difference, when you have pride in your politics) we're talking about a group who vastly out number the Hilltop Youth, so the comparison is naive.

If the idea of an Israeli Left is something worth marginalizing or even denying, then why defend them?

[NewsGuy]

from what i've read here...the americans are quite sure in their definition of the israeli leftest, and it appears to be an extreme view...kind of like refering to those on the right as equivalent to the hilltopyouth

the israelis here seem to disagree
Not really. Ask Sharonbn, for example. He has described himself as a Leftist, but explains that many other Leftists are more extreme than he is.

I describe myself as being somewhat Right of Center.

It really doesn't matter what labels people put on individuals. In general, we understand that there are various degrees of Left and Right, some more extreme than others.

I understand that you make the point that there are some Leftists who serve in combat units in the army when they are not too busy talking about how they would love to give away most of Israel to the Palestinians thinking that this would make Israel more secure. That's how it is. They would still describe themselves as Leftists.

And of course, there is the Center. Maybe the better question is what is the Center these days? Has it disappeared as recent events polarize Israeli society?

[pelsar]

The Hilltop Youth are the radical right. We have carefully explained the type of politics many of us believe portray the mainstream Israeli Left ....and that is who we are referencing....

then you have no idea what your talking about.....because the group you are refrencing..i believe they been called "self hating jews"...they want to give all of israel away to the palestenians...they trust the PA more than they trust the israeli govt...etc etc etc...describes the anarchists and some from the looney left....hardly the mainstream.

either you dont know the difference or you dont want to know..either way your wrong.

[redcake]

then you have no idea what your talking about.....because the group you are refrencing..i believe they been called "self hating jews"...they want to give all of israel away to the palestenians...they trust the PA more than they trust the israeli govt...etc etc etc...describes the anarchists and some from the looney left....hardly the mainstream.

either you dont know the difference or you dont want to know..either way your wrong.

Either you can't follow a conversation, or you're deliberately trying to twist what several of us have explained to you is our definition of the Left. I rarely ever use the phrase self hating Jews, so don't attribute that to me. Like I said, quote me directly if you're trying to prove a point, okay. The end goal of the Loony left (glad we all agree on at least one bit of terminology) and that of the mainstream Left is a Palestinian State utilizing the PA as it's starting point. Because you're a baby who needs spelling blocks, I'll add that there are people of all ideaologies who agree, and disagree with this...meaning you can find some Right wing Israelis who support the plan, and you can find some Left wing moderates who are not in support of the plan..... it is still a Leftist concept that derives of Leftist ideals, originating from, and spearheaded by the campaigns of the Left. If you want to dispute that, you're going to have to do more then tell me "you don't know anything". In fact, you're going to have to rewrite history and tell me how we got from the PA in Tunisia, to the PA in Gaza without Peace Now in the middle somewhere.

[pelsar]

Because you're a baby who needs spelling blocks, .

No i understand very well that the forum on the internet is lacking visual clues...hence when writing one has to be very accurate in order to get ones point across.

sweeping generalizations and other less than accurate information downgrades any discussion into a pathetic flame war...creating walls as opposed to understanding...which seems to be the standard here.....very pathetic.

if I misunderstood you...which i would say is highly likly i would definitly attribut it to your lack of accuracy and your labeling of groups....its not called "spelling blocks" its called recognizing the limitations of the environment and adjusting accordling

which was precisly the reason for this thread....


nor do i dispute the origination of the PA state from the israeli side...never did...nor do i dispute that thomas edison invented electricity...but whens theres a problem with a fuse I dont blame him....the PA state or whatever it will be has been accepted by moderates of all stripes in israel....its no longer relevant its origination.

[redcake]

You're the one calling for sensitivity training. I would highly suggest you read back some of the posts here BEFORE reacting. You would also serve your case better if you weren't defending Ophra of all people. I've yet to see you post anything but generalized arguments....

[frizzer1]

Too bad IF doesn't have a program that would identify every thing ever said by anyone on this forum as loony left,far left,left,right,far right and hilltop right.
Then we would all know who we were talking to.
As for me, would someone please tell me what I am so I would know whether to be proud of myself or mortally ashamed, cause I really want to fit in.And I already feel left out because I feel the need to insult some posters but I misplaced my thesauras and all the good insults have already been used on this thread.

[pelsar]

You're the one calling for sensitivity training. I would highly suggest you read back some of the posts here BEFORE reacting. You would also serve your case better if you weren't defending Ophra of all people. I've yet to see you post anything but generalized arguments....

my "generalized comments in the beginning was a realistic reaction to the "massive hate" against some demon left" that i discovered here......the place was so thick it was absurd:

the left hates jews, the left wants the arabs to love jews, the left is treasonus, the left avoides army service, ad nauseum (I dont believe I really have to dig up all those comments, they were so widespread)

If Ophra has a post i agree with, there is no reason why i shouldnt defend it....on the contrary i find the idea of dismissing an idea simply because "i dont like the poster" to be rather childish.

as far as my positions....once we get past the "gross generaliazations" about the "evil left" I'll be happy to....but this place really does need a revised culture. (In fact I've been having a discussion with sharonb down there in the lounge for the last two days....where our different positions are quite clear.)

[pelsar]

Too bad IF doesn't have a program that would identify every thing ever said by anyone on this forum as loony left,far left,left,right,far right and hilltop right.
Then we would all know who we were talking to.
As for me, would someone please tell me what I am so I would know whether to be proud of myself or mortally ashamed, cause I really want to fit in.And I already feel left out because I feel the need to insult some posters but I misplaced my thesauras and all the good insults have already been used on this thread.

hang in there Frizzer.....we're in the middle of a cultural revision here....the attempt will be for less generalizations of political stands and their supporters and a bit more on the definition side:

for example: left will have its looney left and mainstream left and religious left...so too will the right.....when we get past that, this place might be a bit more hospitable for various opinions.

[frizzer1]

when we get past that, this place might be a bit more hospitable for various opinions.

Boy, you're optimistic.You must be a leftist.

[pelsar]

Boy, you're optimistic.You must be a leftist.

LOL...first time i've enjoyed a comment here....

[frizzer1]

LOL...first time i've enjoyed a comment here....

Stick around..this place aint so bad :)

[Ophra]

You're the one calling for sensitivity training. I would highly suggest you read back some of the posts here BEFORE reacting. You would also serve your case better if you weren't defending Ophra of all people. I've yet to see you post anything but generalized arguments....

I do not need pelsar to defend me redcake ... I was 17 years old during 1967 and I did my share of defending my country then ... we were taught at an early age how to defend ourselves from the enemy redcake .. funny but I never thought then that the enemy included Diaspora Jews such as yourself.

Well at least I have proven you as a liar ... Mr. redcake fake Israeli :rolleyes:

[Ophra]

Too bad IF doesn't have a program that would identify every thing ever said by anyone on this forum as loony left,far left,left,right,far right and hilltop right.
Then we would all know who we were talking to.
As for me, would someone please tell me what I am so I would know whether to be proud of myself or mortally ashamed, cause I really want to fit in.And I already feel left out because I feel the need to insult some posters but I misplaced my thesauras and all the good insults have already been used on this thread.

Honestly ... you are a nice guy frizzer1 , you and canajew both. I have never seen either of you resort to insults or any kind of abuse on here .. and if I remember right you were the only two that stood up and said something against KW's boasting about desecrating Rabin's memorial . I don't think I ever said it before .. but thanks for that frizzer1.
You give me faith in Diaspora Jews and you balance the majority of very nasty ones you have on this forum.

[KettleWhistle]

You ought to add to your file that some three weeks ago my activities included juicing the desecration on Mount Herzel with 1.5 liter of Prigat brand of pulpy o.j.

[pelsar]

You ought to add to your file that some three weeks ago my activities included juicing the desecration on Mount Herzel with 1.5 liter of Prigat brand of pulpy o.j.

well kettle that certainly good to hear.....i'm sure your brave action there was celebrated by friends as a real act of bravery against israel.

now as opposed to all those lefties on the front line....perhaps you can enlighten us as to your personal history defending the state of israel from those that want to destroy it from the outside....or is that too dangerous...and you prefer spilling o.j.

but since you do seem to be disgusted with our history, culture and way of life...why do you even stay?

[pelsar]

redcake...and what is wrong if I come to defend ophra?....On the contrary, its very much a part of israel...at least the part i live in....we do that in israel....we help each other, defend each other, come to each others aid....these are good qualities

[KettleWhistle]

well kettle that certainly good to hear.....i'm sure your brave action there was celebrated by friends as a real act of bravery against israel.

now as opposed to all those lefties on the front line....perhaps you can enlighten us as to your personal history defending the state of israel from those that want to destroy it from the outside....or is that too dangerous...and you prefer spilling o.j.

but since you do seem to be disgusted with our history, culture and way of life...why do you even stay?

Oh, please, get over yourself. I am not disgusted with either Jewish/Israeli history or the way of life. I am disgusted with actions of backstubbers and traitorous corrupt demagogues like Rabin. We aren't talking about me here, and it's not a pissing contest between who's done what. It is about who Rabin and his cohorts were, and what he has done, from backstubbing Irgun members (who refused to retaliate) to Altalena to bringing terrorists to Israel and arming them.

I was in Eastern Europe when the traitor was finally shot, and every Jew I knew there was celebrating. People were dancing in the streets, being happy that Israel was saved from any more damages that he could cause. So if you want to talk about protecting Israel from outside dangers, you need to start on the inside, by encouraging loyalty, unity against the enemy, and most importantly patriotism, and not by making idols of despicable men.

[Ophra]

redcake...and what is wrong if I come to defend ophra?....On the contrary, its very much a part of israel...at least the part i live in....we do that in israel....we help each other, defend each other, come to each others aid....these are good qualities

Yes .. and it does not matter what kind of Israeli it is .. secular or religious, Left or Right, white/black/yellow/purple , Jew/Muslim/Christian , Jew/Arab/Druze/Bedouin etc etc .
You should be at a bus bombing once .... all of the above could be on a bus at once ... terror hits us all ... there is no sexism or racism or humanism or any kind of ..ism with terror ... it's just pure hatred... but we balance that hatred out by caring for each other .Every time they hit us we get stronger ... every terror attack we unite .. you cannot break us peeps ... not in reality and certainly not on here .
We are Israelies !!

[Ophra]

well kettle that certainly good to hear.....i'm sure your brave action there was celebrated by friends as a real act of bravery against israel.

now as opposed to all those lefties on the front line....perhaps you can enlighten us as to your personal history defending the state of israel from those that want to destroy it from the outside....or is that too dangerous...and you prefer spilling o.j.

but since you do seem to be disgusted with our history, culture and way of life...why do you even stay?

He is not an Israeli pelsar.... he is a Russian/American . He has never served in the Army ... he says he was in a Cuban prison instead :rolleyes:
BTW he didn't spill the o.j. ... least not the first time .. use your imagination ;)
I reported him to the Shabak and gave them links to here and all the info I had on him.... they know he is back in the country again and are looking for him.... if he did desecrate the Memorial again like he says today ..then he is done for... they have cameras on all important graves and memorials now .

[pelsar]

So if you want to talk about protecting Israel from outside dangers, you need to start on the inside, by encouraging loyalty, unity against the enemy, and most importantly patriotism, and not by making idols of despicable men.

i am and i do...and i protect my country from people from the likes of you....

(quite the collection we got here....)

[redcake]

Good show, Israelis. You're really doing a service to this forum and your country.

[Mediocrates]

Yes .. and it does not matter what kind of Israeli it is .. secular or religious, Left or Right, white/black/yellow/purple , Jew/Muslim/Christian , Jew/Arab/Druze/Bedouin etc etc .
You should be at a bus bombing once .... all of the above could be on a bus at once ... terror hits us all ... there is no sexism or racism or humanism or any kind of ..ism with terror ... it's just pure hatred... but we balance that hatred out by caring for each other .Every time they hit us we get stronger ... every terror attack we unite .. you cannot break us peeps ... not in reality and certainly not on here .
We are Israelies !!



Well, except for the Orthodox Jews, apparently. And honestly, that's fine. Let's just rename the country something else, make it the Generic People's Republic of Sabrastan, a kind of potemkin willage, hire all the arabs as guest workers to be your servants as you clap each other on the back over the success of your uberclass and be done with it. It's really very familiar to anyone whos' ever lived in Central America with its padron class of landowning gentry.

[determinism]

Good show, Israelis. You're really doing a service to this forum and your country.

if people like ophra and pelsar would speak for israel i am sure it would get a lot more support in the world.

[redcake]

if people like ophra and pelsar would speak for israel i am sure it would get a lot more support in the world.

The world loves a good superiority complex. The problem is the world isn't a Sabra, and the world doesn't serve in the IDF.

[KettleWhistle]

i am and i do...and i protect my country from people from the likes of you....

(quite the collection we got here....)

Do tell how exactly you protect the country by supporting people who help terrorists and brag about shooting their fellow Jews as they try to swim to safety.

P.S. Ophra is more Russian than I am; she admitted so herself. All of which is quite hillarious, since I don't have a drop of slavic blood in my body or in my ancestoral tree.

[MGB8]

This thread is getting very silly.

The basic point, which was overblown, was that Israeli liberals didn't like the braod "leftist" label to be used in reference to the policies of Beilin, Sarrid, Avnery, and the nutjob University Professors (whose the one at UHaifa, again?, starts with a P, I think) who are to one degree or another anti-zionist or post-zionist. I guess that was what leftist was being used for, specifically - anti-zionists, and more-so post-zionists... which is part of the yes, left wing "one world without nations, we are all humans" ideology (which sounds nice, but so did communism, until you factor in reality.)

Then we get into more specific arguments about castigating the right or left, as well as whether or not its legitimate to castigate Israelis who are not post/anti-zionist, or who are, but are willing to serve in the IDF, anyways. There is also the issue of the same type of castigation of rightists - ie. the settlers, who also serve in the IDF... which has been brought up but not responded to. And there is also residual issue of anger of the right at the center left for pushing through land for peace when there was no concensus on it in the early 90's, with the devastating consequences that Oslo has had... and the center-left's all the while telling the center-right and right (and themselves) that Oslo was working fine, that Arafat was a partner, yada yada yada.

[determinism]

The world loves a good superiority complex.

i don't think the moderates in israael show a superiority complex. to me quite the opposite seems true.

[redcake]

Yes .. and it does not matter what kind of Israeli it is .. secular or religious, Left or Right, white/black/yellow/purple , Jew/Muslim/Christian , Jew/Arab/Druze/Bedouin etc etc .
You should be at a bus bombing once .... all of the above could be on a bus at once ... terror hits us all ... there is no sexism or racism or humanism or any kind of ..ism with terror ... it's just pure hatred... but we balance that hatred out by caring for each other .Every time they hit us we get stronger ... every terror attack we unite .. you cannot break us peeps ... not in reality and certainly not on here .
We are Israelies !!

It's a shame none of your previous posts have reflected this Ophra. All you do is scold the victims like a bratty know it all, all the while spouting the most contradictory bunch of contrarian phooey this forum has probably ever seen. Maybe if you expressed your desires for Israeli unity, and freedom of expression for all people, be they religious or not, we would take kinder to your brand of insanity. Sadly, you seem more concerned with dancing around the house with your husband gloating about the fuss you caused on IsraelForum...because you feel attacked, and we hurt your feelings. You're a sad farce and few of us believe or care if you're an Israeli the way you talk.

[Mediocrates]

The world loves a good superiority complex. The problem is the world isn't a Sabra, and the world doesn't serve in the IDF.


Or more trenchantly, if what the world hates is the notion of a free democratic Jewish homeland then what they should avoid is a free democratic Jewish homeland. It makes perfect sense to become what your enemies desire of you in a world where you have few plausible options. I'm the first one to say Victor Hanson is wrong when he says Israel's best friend is George Bush and if I'm right then Israel has no friends and has no choice be to happily devolve into a middle Eastern El Salvador. The 'world' such as it is isn't worried or appalled by heirarchical exclusionist societies that function more or less like benign tyrannies. Israel maybe shouldn't exist to uplift the world but instead sink to its depths.

[Mediocrates]

And intense outrage over the real or imagined desecration of national monuments is more a trait of totalitarian societies by the way. Tyrannies need cults of personality.

[pelsar]

And intense outrage over the real or imagined desecration of national monuments is more a trait of totalitarian societies by the way. Tyrannies need cults of personality.

the only real cults we have here are based in several rabbis and their flock....i've never heard of rabin being more than simply respected as a PM. etc....no cult is running around his name...no statues, no monuments....lots of street names (but then we got 500 borochov streets as well) and for those who believe such a thing exists it would be interesting to hear on what basis?

as far as the smaller cults based on several rabbis we heard their flock during the gaza pullout...saying that they believe in rabbi x and he told them what to do..etc.....and they only listen to him....

oh so are you hinting that israel is a totalitarian society?...

[Mediocrates]

oh so are you hinting that israel is a totalitarian society?...


Oh I'd have to say the distinct possbility is there. 'Noble' cultures like ancient Athens, Revolutionary France and others have happily instituted frightfully oppressive regimes in the name of state security. It's not that hard at all and goverments rarely if ever surrender power voluntarily once you give it to them.

I'd have to say that Israel is poised to become somewhat more repressive. Maybe not totalitarian per se but maybe authroritarian like Portugal until 1974.

[Ophra]

Do tell how exactly you protect the country by supporting people who help terrorists and brag about shooting their fellow Jews as they try to swim to safety.

P.S. Ophra is more Russian than I am; she admitted so herself. All of which is quite hillarious, since I don't have a drop of slavic blood in my body or in my ancestoral tree.

Rabin never bragged about anything KW ... not a thing.

You and those like you can try to destroy his memory ... but whilst there are those alive that knew and loved him we will fight for him. As he fought for us.

He was everything that you are not.

You can make up stories and even fake web sites KW ... who the hell do you think you are fooling ? And why ??

[Ophra]

Oh I'd have to say the distinct possbility is there. 'Noble' cultures like ancient Athens, Revolutionary France and others have happily instituted frightfully oppressive regimes in the name of state security. It's not that hard at all and goverments rarely if ever surrender power voluntarily once you give it to them.

I'd have to say that Israel is poised to become somewhat more repressive. Maybe not totalitarian per se but maybe authroritarian like Portugal until 1974.

Give IT a break Medio..... you have become such a boring old know nothing ...man you know nothing about us ... you are just a big nothing Medio .
Medio the Mod :rolleyes: .... who has never ever been here ... big bloody joke. Big bloody know it all who knows not a thing .

[Ophra]

And intense outrage over the real or imagined desecration of national monuments is more a trait of totalitarian societies by the way. Tyrannies need cults of personality.

:rolleyes:
You won't ever have to worry about that ... now will yah ??
You need a personality to have a cult built round one :D

[redcake]

Ophra, anyone who generalizes about the right the way you do, is most definetly diqualified to comment on the generalizations of the left.

You sure told Medio though... now you can go do your honey cake roof dancing!

[Cato]

Ophra as one Liberal to another CHANGE YOUR SIGNATURE.

Your signature insults Orthadox jews, suggesting that it was the Orthadox Community, instead of a terrorist nut job that killed Rabin.

Rabin was a great man, but honoring his memory by insulting millions of jews who he set out to help by trying to make peace far from honoring him, DISHONORS him.

[frizzer1]

Honestly ... you are a nice guy frizzer1 , you and canajew both. I have never seen either of you resort to insults or any kind of abuse on here .. and if I remember right you were the only two that stood up and said something against KW's boasting about desecrating Rabin's memorial . I don't think I ever said it before .. but thanks for that frizzer1.
You give me faith in Diaspora Jews and you balance the majority of very nasty ones you have on this forum.

You probably know that a compliment from you can get a guy killed around here,don't you?
But seriously, thanks for your remarks.Fact is I really don't see any point in name calling.It accomplishes nothing except to inflame the recipient and guarantee a hostile response.
As for diaspora jews,you shouldn't judge us by the behaviour of a few people on an internet forum, myself included, nor should anyone judge israelis using the same yardstick.Those who claim to be avoiding Israel because of a specific poster on the internet are not being serious in my opinion.
And I have a problem with this whole idea of diaspora jews as though we are an alien species.We are not.We are jews and we are your brothers and sisters.
About Rabin..this is a subject that is so very painful to me.To think that some would vandalize his grave, to call him a traitor and a murderer.He was a man who fought for his country,who served in public life and ultimately died for his country.His vision turned out to be a mistake in my opinion, but a traitor to his country? a friend of terrorists? It sickens me to see those words.
Even in my modern orthodox shul where the membership was split on whether Rabin's views would help bring peace or damage to israel, both sides were respectful of each other.No one cheered although not everyone mourned.As for me, I loved him too.To me, right or wrong in his approach,he was a hero.

[MGB8]

Amen.

[Mediocrates]

Give IT a break Medio..... you have become such a boring old know nothing ...man you know nothing about us ... you are just a big nothing Medio .
Medio the Mod :rolleyes: .... who has never ever been here ... big bloody joke. Big bloody know it all who knows not a thing .



Well you changed your sig, that's something. Oh trust me, your darts don't upset me. The mere fact that every living creature has a finite number of heartbeats and you spend a few hating me it payment enough. Thanks.

Now I'm off to read Mottke the Thief.

[Mediocrates]

What do you call this, Ophra?

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=89566


What do you call a peacenik who blinds an IDF soldier??

[minusthejihad]

Your link is broken. Try this: http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=89566

However, expect to hear the sounds of crickets.

[Mediocrates]

Friday Ritual: Leftists Stone IDF in Anti-Fence Protest
Friday, September 9, 2005 / 5 Elul 5765

Eight left-wing activists protesting the security fence were arrested Friday after stoning soldiers. Demonstrations occur every Friday, but activists have not met the fate of right-wing protesters.

The army declared the village of Bilin, in the Ramallah area north of Jerusalem, a closed military zone and tried to prevent the weekly demonstration, which was planned to be unusually large. Activists refused to disperse and then hurled rocks at soldiers, who fired rubber bullets and tear gas. At least two protesters were lightly injured.

Village residents claim the fence is being built on their land.

Left-wing organizers said a large demonstration was intended as a response to last week's violence, which resulted in injuries to demonstrators and soldiers. Soldiers were filmed beating a left-wing activist, and several people were injured after a subsequent battle between rock-throwing Arabs and soldiers who fired rubber bullets.

One soldier so far has lost an eye in the violent protests at Bilin, but despite the frequency of the protests and stone throwing against soldiers, police have not carried out mass arrests as they did against non-violent anti-expulsion activists. They often were jailed for weeks for passing out orange ribbons and blocking roads.

The IDF sent 150 soldiers into Bilin Friday morning and imposed a curfew to prevent non-residents, who were staying in several houses, from demonstrating, according to Arab activist Mohamed al-Khatib.

Several residents tried to defy the curfew and distracted soldiers, allowing their guests to escape, he added. Three International Solidarity Movement (ISM) activists and five Israelis were arrested by police. ISM protestor Gretta Berlin said activists suffered bruises and scratches in skirmishes with police.

Military sources denied accusations that the IDF tried to cancel Moslem prayer services at a mosque and explained that officers did not interfere with prayers but barred the "muezzin" from using loudspeakers to call people to the mosque.