More politization of holocaust

[sharonbn]

'Yad Vashem for Gush Katif' to document 'holocaust' of pullout

A organization opposed to the disengagement has announced plans to build a memorial center called "Yad Vashem for Gush Katif and the Northern Samaria, displaying photographs of soldiers and police who took part in the 'holocaust' of evacuations alongside documentation of the former settlements.

The plan drew sharp criticism from the Yad Vashem national memorial to then World War II Holocaust, and from survivors of the Nazi annihilation campaign.

Referring to the evacuations in Gaza and the West Bank, Rabbi Shalom Wolpe, one of the project's initiators, said Wednesday that "There are families which have truly gone through a holocaust, and - heaven forbid - another Holocaust may now befall the people of Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/616704.html

[KSO]

This cartoon says it all. (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/28/767427)

[Cato]

I really do resent the way the settlers are trying to equate Areil Sharon with Hitler and disengagement with facism.

[Binyamin]

I think that this museum comparison isn't appropiate, but I think that such a museum is a good idea, as long as they can find a better name for it.

On the other hand, comparisons to the holocaust are nothing new, (see here (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7028), second post) and this outrage against the settlers using it is also an abuse.

While there is no comparison between the holocaust and the eviction, I did see alot of similarity in the social response, like the general apathy, the abnormaly cooperative media, and following orders to avoid making ethical decisions. Again, I am not comparing what was done, only the way people responded.

[Mediocrates]

I think if you can't say outrageous things to or about your leaders you might as well be a slave.

Don't forget that when Olmert came and talked to some olim there was someone shouting "You Nazis!!!!" his response was "I see you're ready for the Israeli political system".

[Cato]

I think if you can't say outrageous things to or about your leaders you might as well be a slave.

Don't forget that when Olmert came and talked to some olim there was someone shouting "You Nazis!!!!" his response was "I see you're ready for the Israeli political system".

I only said I am outraged at the way some of my fellow Israelis are comparing me and all other supporters of the pullout to the nazis and Ariel Sharon to Hitler. I never said or suggested they shouldn't be allowed to scream that garbage, I support their right to do it although I am outraged by it.

When anti-semites try to compare occupation to the Holocaust is bad enough, but it is also awful when our brothers decide to compare our attempt to set things right to it.

[Ophra]

See: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3133388,00.html

[pelsar]

for those who were taken out of their homes..to awaiting busses surrounded by police and soldiers....well you cant not have an association to the holocaust...that said, its explotation was both cheap and demeaning. Dont we always scream at anybody else in the world who trys to equat anything to the holcaust?....its was shameful and theatrical at the sametime...but worst of all its was explotation of children

[Mediocrates]

Oh please save that what about the chillllldren prattle for bikehelmet wearing soccermoms.

[Mediocrates]

Come clean you object to this because there is a kernel of truth in it and you feel a little bit shamed and dirty.

[pelsar]

Oh please save that what about the chillllldren prattle for bikehelmet wearing soccermoms.

well actually i was writing what my friend from atzmona said....

http://www.vistaspinner.com/picts/images/maor-small.jpg

(here he is helping his sister's child leave their home in neve dekalim

i dont feel comfortable with the whole scenario..not at all....but in the meantime I"m glad it was done for a varitey of reasons (I'm a bit weak on reading the future, so I will not be claiming this move will bring peace or war or the messiah)

[sharonbn]

there is no kernel of truth in it.
holocaust is not synonym for expulsion. not every picture of people taken from thir homes by force should be compared to the holocaust. it trivializes the historical event and it gives weapon to holocaust deniers.

moreover, comparing the pull out to the holocaust implies comparing israeli soldiers to nazis. as a veteran of the israeli army, this is unacceptable.

[Mediocrates]

well actually i was writing what my friend from atzmona said....

http://www.vistaspinner.com/picts/images/maor-small.jpg

(here he is helping his sister's child leave their home in neve dekalim

i dont feel comfortable with the whole scenario..not at all....but in the meantime I"m glad it was done for a varitey of reasons (I'm a bit weak on reading the future, so I will not be claiming this move will bring peace or war or the messiah)


Why don't you feel comfortable about it? It's it convenient to blame THEM?

[Mediocrates]

there is no kernel of truth in it.
holocaust is not synonym for expulsion. not every picture of people taken from thir homes by force should be compared to the holocaust. it trivializes the historical event and it gives weapon to holocaust deniers.

moreover, comparing the pull out to the holocaust implies comparing israeli soldiers to nazis. as a veteran of the israeli army, this is unacceptable.


There is kernel of truth in the shame. Shame on you.

[redcake]

there is no kernel of truth in it.
holocaust is not synonym for expulsion. not every picture of people taken from thir homes by force should be compared to the holocaust.

The expulsion of Jews to appease anti-semitism as an ambigious move towards domestic harmony? I really hope there will never be a more appropriate instance for comparison.

[sharonbn]

There is kernel of truth in the shame. Shame on you.
no there is not. repeating yourself won't make the statement more truthful.
Shame on those who exploit the memory of the holocaust for political gain.

[Mediocrates]

And stop repeating how offended you are. You sound like every other demagogue who insists on regulating how other people protest.

[NewsGuy]

I think that this museum comparison isn't appropiate, but I think that such a museum is a good idea, as long as they can find a better name for it.


Well said.

Although nothing even close to the Holocaust, this forced expulsion is a Crime Against Humanity and should be documented in a museum.

I hope that they include photos of the Kassam rockets that the Palestinians fired into Israeli population centers during and after the expulsion, as well as the bodies of the stabbed Israelis from this week.

Nothing wrong with showing people what was done to Jewish families to appease Islamic terrorists, and what the results turned out to be.

[Mediocrates]

It's either ironic or funny that the Sabras think they can expropriate the Shoah and make it their own. I think they should STFU.

[HaNavi]

No spam, please.

[Mediocrates]

So what did you do on Yom HaShoah? I mean seeing how the explusionists have suddenly made a cult out of it after not really paying much attention to it at all for decades.

[pelsar]

Why don't you feel comfortable about it? It's it convenient to blame THEM?

well to begin with I dont feel comfortable with a lot of things i've done while in the IDF..its doesnt mean I dont think they arent neccessary..but it does mean that I can look people in the eye and see their pain.

I divide things, like many here, on a personal and national level. On a personal level, the state of israel encoraged people to live in Gaza, there they built their lives in the false belief that they would be there forever....though not intentionally... they were decieved.

so taking people from their homes forceably is not something I feel comfortable, among other things...but it doesnt mean that those same people get a "pass" to do what they want simply because they disagree with a decision and action made by the govt....l dont know what you saw on TV...but what i saw and what i heard from those who were there, was that the theatrics that used their kids was both unecessary, satirical and bordered on gross disregard for those same kids.....and that view includes people who used to live in gaza

[pelsar]

So what did you do on Yom HaShoah? I mean seeing how the explusionists have suddenly made a cult out of it after not really paying much attention to it at all for decades.

I guess thats from where you sit.....you shouldnt be so ethnocentric....we view things differently from over here.

[Mediocrates]

I guess thats from where you sit.....you shouldnt be so ethnocentric....we view things differently from over here.

Really? How is that?

[Mediocrates]

...l dont know what you saw on TV...but what i saw and what i heard from those who were there, was that the theatrics that used their kids was both unecessary, satirical and bordered on gross disregard for those same kids.....and that view includes people who used to live in gaza


So you basically think that it's all a cynical ploy. For what reason? What do you think their cynical goals are?

[SteveK]

so taking people from their homes forceably is not something I feel comfortable, among other things...but it doesnt mean that those same people get a "pass" to do what they want simply because they disagree with a decision and action made by the govt....l dont know what you saw on TV...but what i saw and what i heard from those who were there, was that the theatrics that used their kids was both unecessary, satirical and bordered on gross disregard for those same kids.....and that view includes people who used to live in gaza

Pelsar:

I'm sure that these kids, who are old enough to understand, bear an extremely painful emotional and psychological burden far in excess of your relatively minor tummy upset with the whole affair.

And, not because of their parents' use of them as some bit part players.

I would guess that these kids understand about the multi-mega-dollar budget production of an irreligious and atheist Israeli government, with an American co-producer, who humiliated them and their families on the international stage with the libelous billing as the Orthodox religious Zionist messianic maniac extremists, who must be expelled and silenced to bring peace and good tidings from the world, i.e., the Israeli government's degenerate spin for its total surrender to the Arab enemy sworn to the destruction of Israel and the Jews.

[HaNavi]

So you basically think that it's all a cynical ploy. For what reason? What do you think their cynical goals are?

It is not a “cynical ploy” in the sense that you may be alluding to. The settlers knew that they were going to be evicted and therefore made certain preparations for that eventuality. However, if the settlers had had a ‘choice’ I think it would be safe to say that they would have chosen to stay. If we can except this as a given it follows then that if there was a “ploy”, the motives and the intention for that “ploy” certainly could not be placed in the laps of the evicted.

From their point of view all the settlers could do was make the best of a bad situation. Therefore, they chose to manipulate the media in a way that would best tell the story, again, from ‘their’ point of view.

If there was ever a “ploy” it would have to be placed with the architects of the idea of ‘disengagement’. That would involve tracing the plan back to its origins: way before Sharon announced the final stages of it in 2003.

The problem here is in the language. The word “ploy” carries negative connotations, that is, if you agree with the disengagement. Here are two definitions of the word “ploy” I found on the web. A: “A cunning maneuver to gain an advantage”. B: “A tactic intended to embarrass or frustrate an opponent”.

Since a country cannot be run on the basis of religious fundamentalism without that country posing a danger to itself, its neighbors, or the world at large, as history points out, the word “ploy” (within this context) illustrates an intolerance, and a willingness on behalf of certain individuals to construct all manor of conspiratorial reasoning in a transparent attempt to justify violence. More often than not fanatics fail to understand that a countries survival is based on policies that support its ‘collective self-preservation’.

Responsible and peaceful people do not sympathize with the likes of Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein, Eden Natan Zada, and the Israeli man who shot dead three Palestinians in the West Bank as he was driving them to work during the disengagement. As I said in the article: trouble makers will be kept in their place. In time it will become clear that, in reality, the Israeli government protected the settlers from themselves.

Truly, Philip Margolis
Brooklyn, NY
Phillipmargoliesca@hotmail.com

[redcake]

1) How are you even drawing a connection between the settlers, and those who sympathize with Baruch Goldstein & Co. ?

2) Assuming you respect their right to practice their devout brand of Judaism, you can't fault them for proving their intentions of being on that land to g-d. It accounts for the construction started a week prior to the evictions, and many other gestures made.

3) If children make up half the community, it's a bit unreasonable to expect them to just magically wake up one day in hotel room. Obviously it's the imagery of the children that's sticking with your conscious, and it should. We all know they were victims of expulsion, but the presence of TV cameras wasn't the reason why. If we're going to worry about exploitation, let's wonder why the government encouraged community growth, and then abandoned these families so they could use them as political pawns. It's concerning to me that anyone would have prefered that families were seperated so as to "protect" the children.

[pelsar]

Pelsar:

I'm sure that these kids, who are old enough to understand, bear an extremely painful emotional and psychological burden far in excess of your relatively minor tummy upset with the whole affair.

And, not because of their parents' use of them as some bit part players.

I would guess that these kids understand about the multi-mega-dollar budget production of an irreligious and atheist Israeli government, with an American co-producer, who humiliated them and their families on the international stage with the libelous billing as the Orthodox religious Zionist messianic maniac extremists, who must be expelled and silenced to bring peace and good tidings from the world, i.e., the Israeli government's degenerate spin for its total surrender to the Arab enemy sworn to the destruction of Israel and the Jews.

i must say you write very well.....a few details I learned about:
i dont know if you noticed it, but the police unit in black uniforms (anti flame etc) we're barely seen on TV...yet for the residents they were the most "fearful"

we never did see (or i didnt") see houses simply surrounded by soldiers...when the knock came on the door......so in some respects a lot wasnt shown....stuff we wouldnt want to see.....

for most ...the kids were hurt, cried, didnt understand as they were brought up with two messages: the IDF/Police protects them...and they belong there, so if there would be a "by word" for the kids it would be confusion. If you throw in the theatrics of making those same protectors to be "nazi like"...your really playing with those kids minds.They had enough confusion going on..and didnt need the additional "sh¡t" some of the moms and dads put on them.

btw i dont know if you read maariv, but the friday (hebrew) paper had an interesting article from one of the tat alufs in involved and his apparent surprise at the extremism of some of the rabbis...especially the three at kfar drom....)

but i dont believe were in total surrender mode...nor will we ever be.

[pelsar]

So you basically think that it's all a cynical ploy. For what reason? What do you think their cynical goals are?

for many of the residents....it was a reminder of the holocaust..even for those who didnt "play to the cameras....it was how they felt, nor can one "take away" such feeelings.

Why they did that?..i would guess for precisly that reason...to make us, who dont live there, understand what they're going through....and to do so it definitly required the theatrics. Isnt that part of todays news?

The gaza residents we're probably also attempting to make it clear, that this is "the last"....the idea of making such a move to so horrible to israel, so difficult that such a thing could not possibly happen again....it didnt work.

[goliath]

there is no kernel of truth in it.
holocaust is not synonym for expulsion. not every picture of people taken from thir homes by force should be compared to the holocaust. it trivializes the historical event and it gives weapon to holocaust deniers.

moreover, comparing the pull out to the holocaust implies comparing israeli soldiers to nazis. as a veteran of the israeli army, this is unacceptable.

If all this is the price to pay for the next two centuries ....
Sharon is right...

If Palestinian wants more and more , even our lives....
Sharon ,is wrong....

Nothing on earth can be put in comparisin with our WWII's extermination , guilty people is mostly buried , some of them are still in very good shape....

[SteveK]

... for most ...the kids were hurt, cried, didnt understand as they were brought up with two messages: the IDF/Police protects them...and they belong there, so if there would be a "by word" for the kids it would be confusion. If you throw in the theatrics of making those same protectors to be "nazi like"...your really playing with those kids minds.They had enough confusion going on..and didnt need the additional "sh¡t" some of the moms and dads put on them.

btw i dont know if you read maariv, but the friday (hebrew) paper had an interesting article from one of the tat alufs in involved and his apparent surprise at the extremism of some of the rabbis...especially the three at kfar drom....)

but i dont believe were in total surrender mode...nor will we ever be.


Pelsar,

I'm sure the children were also brought up with the message that God protects them and listens to their prayers. The children, their parents, and their Rabbis must also be confused about why God allowed this atrocity of expulsion of them from their God given land.

But, that's what faith in God is all about. You must maintain the faith.
3,500+ years of faith by the Jews through to today.

Personally, I think that God is allowing some major desecration of Biblical proportion of His Name by the Israelis in order to bring some major corrective actions to get our Jewish Homeland on track with His heritage, and not the dictates of those atheists, and goyim minded Israelis who have corruptly usurped power, and who want us to depend on our security by appeasement and surrender to the Arab enemy.

And, the Philistines once again think that they have chained a blinded and humiliated Samson to the pillars of their fortress.

[HaNavi]

<edited by moderator>

[NewsGuy]

Some Jews were actually smiling as they were being dragged from their homes while others cried. Some were laughing in the background...

Seeing something like this does bring up at least one small parallel with the Holocaust, which is that just like there are Holocaust deniers, there are now apparently Expulsion deniers.

Seeing Jews forcefully expelled from parts of the Jewish homeland continues to be one big celebration for Leftists and Jew-haters worldwide.

[sharonbn]

no one laughed from the pictures of the pull out.
i guess its a classic case of "just because you're paranoid, does not mean they're not after you"

[SteveK]

no one laughed from the pictures of the pull out.
i guess its a classic case of "just because you're paranoid, does not mean they're not after you"

sharonbn,

In denial already about mocking these Jews being expelled from their homes and land?????



Posted by sharonbn

Thread: The Wild west bank

Come and do the disengagement yourself!
Its a flash game where you're supposed to click to dismantle caravans, homes and settlements...
(instructions in Hebrew only)

http://brand.co.il/unik/westbank/

oy oy why is it only possible in the internet to move these colonies with a click of a button....

[pelsar]

Seeing Jews forcefully expelled from parts of the Jewish homeland continues to be one big celebration for Leftists and Jew-haters worldwide.

i'm going to generalize here...as this site seems to have a constant "extreme view" of the "leftie" placing them in the same boat as the Jew-haters.

well mr newsguy....i dont know of a single "leftie" that celebrated the evacuation...and i know many here in israel. So I and many leftie israelis would appreciate if you would differntiate from the lefties you have in your head (in the states?) vs the israeli lefties i know, work with and fight with.

[sharonbn]

it was a joke... so?
we jews also joke about the holocaust... doesn't mean we laugh at the victims

[SteveK]

it was a joke... so?
we jews also joke about the holocaust... doesn't mean we laugh at the victims


sharonbn,

How do you joke about the holocaust without laughing at the victims?

How do you joke about poverty without laughing at the victims?

Pelsar won't let anybody talk about, let alone laugh at, the "lefties" without his feeling it as personal insult to himself.

sharonbn, let's see you laugh at the "lefties" and the Israeli government of atheists and Arab appeasers. We would just be making jokes about the Israeli government and the "left" without degrading the people who are actually defining the Israeli government and "left",--- right???

[Binyamin]

well mr newsguy....i dont know of a single "leftie" that celebrated the evacuation...and i know many here in israel. So I and many leftie israelis would appreciate if you would differntiate from the lefties you have in your head (in the states?) vs the israeli lefties i know, work with and fight with.You should really read some of the Haaretz articles that Ophra's been posting.

[pelsar]

Pelsar won't let anybody talk about, let alone laugh at, the "lefties" without his feeling it as personal insult to himself.

no steve I can differentiate between the hilltopyouth/eigalamir/fanatical rabbis and the general right....i dont see that when the "left is discussed".

shall we discuss how the right eggs on the hilltopyouth to fight the security forces and attempted to injure them?...how the rabbis at kfra drom didnt give a sh¡t if the roof of the synagogue made of kalpac could have collapsed with all those kids inside and on the roof, thereyby making some martyrs for the cause?....how about that nice lady who set herself on fire?...why is the right encouraging such feats?...shall we discuss how the right wants to massacre all the arabs like four of their members already have....perhaps we should go and check into why the religious soldiers have problem with orders....seems more than a few wouldnt carry out the orders from the state....i believe that borders on mutiney...is the right loyal to their local rabbi or the state?...cant have both...i believe that all of those on the right should go through a loyalty test, least we get another igal amir who believes that they have the right to kill anyone who disagrees with them...shall i go on?....seems to me the right feels that they can do what ever they please...as long as they have a local rabbi to bless them.

what was it that one of the youth said at neve dekalim when the local rabbi told them to stop destroying IDF equipment...oh yes, one of them answered that THEIR RABBI said it was a mitza...gosh seems our right has not just one master but several....after they eliminate the left, we'll have rabbis pitting their loyal right wing students against each other...doing what they do best...being violent..i could go on, and of course we could get to those who want to dictatorship/theocracy based on a governing model that is no longer relevant to todays society...you know the kind where some people have more rights than others...where if you dont follow the rules you can be banned from society with no appeal...i believe we can see some of the results in iran for a preview of that kind of society

[SteveK]

no steve I can differentiate between the hilltopyouth/eigalamir/fanatical rabbis and the general right....i dont see that when the "left is discussed".

shall we discuss how the right eggs on the hilltopyouth to fight the security forces and attempted to injure them?...how the rabbis at kfra drom didnt give a sh¡t if the roof of the synagogue made of kalpac could have collapsed with all those kids inside and on the roof, thereyby making some martyrs for the cause?....how about that nice lady who set herself on fire?...why is the right encouraging such feats?...shall we discuss how the right wants to massacre all the arabs like four of their members already have....perhaps we should go and check into why the religious soldiers have problem with orders....seems more than a few wouldnt carry out the orders from the state....i believe that borders on mutiney...is the right loyal to their local rabbi or the state?...cant have both...i believe that all of those on the right should go through a loyalty test, least we get another igal amir who believes that they have the right to kill anyone who disagrees with them...shall i go on?....seems to me the right feels that they can do what ever they please...as long as they have a local rabbi to bless them.

what was it that one of the youth said at neve dekalim when the local rabbi told them to stop destroying IDF equipment...oh yes, one of them answered that THEIR RABBI said it was a mitza...gosh seems our right has not just one master but several....after they eliminate the left, we'll have rabbis pitting their loyal right wing students against each other...doing what they do best...being violent..i could go on, and of course we could get to those who want to dictatorship/theocracy based on a governing model that is no longer relevant to todays society...you know the kind where some people have more rights than others...where if you dont follow the rules you can be banned from society with no appeal...i believe we can see some of the results in iran for a preview of that kind of society


pelsar,

I had to repeat your whole post because I couldn't find the cutoffs between your fantasies and the realities.

I think you are on your way to showing us here just what it means to be an "Israeli lefty",--- weaving your fabric of Israeli society with your own animalistic woofs and crazed warps of reality.

And, what you have said here is the jungle drum beat of the near seditious Israeli government of "Israeli lefties", the atheists, goyim, and uncircumcized phillistines of the Jewish homeland.

And ...


pelsar:

... i believe that all of those on the right should go through a loyalty test, least we get another igal amir who believes that they have the right to kill anyone who disagrees with them...shall i go on?....

Be sure to open up your nation-wide chain of "Israeli Lefty" low-life fashion stores. With all the Israeli natives hopping to your tune, you could make a killing in selling loin-cloths, spears, and animal bones to put through your noses.

[pelsar]

I had to repeat your whole post because I couldn't find the cutoffs between your fantasies and the realities.


yes steve that was my point....when the "left" is discussed here thats how it reads...and if you'll look at your response you see that it completly paralyses any conversation and discussion what so ever....

that is hardly a positive value

[SteveK]

yes steve that was my point....when the "left" is discussed here thats how it reads...and if you'll look at your response you see that it completly paralyses any conversation and discussion what so ever....

that is hardly a positive value

Pelsar,

Your intentions are not about conversation and discussion.

The "Israeli Lefties" enjoy their game of throwing slime balls so we can't get a grip, and your arguements just go splat all over. I've had enough experience with dropping pea soup on my clothes at lunch and the effects for all to see and later clean up.

So, I don't want your pee soup on me. That's the essence of all your posts.

[pelsar]

Pelsar,

Your intentions are not about conversation and discussion.

The "Israeli Lefties" enjoy their game of throwing slime balls so we can't get a grip, and your arguements just go splat all over. I've had enough experience with dropping pea soup on my clothes at lunch and the effects for all to see and later clean up.

So, I don't want your pee soup on me. That's the essence of all your posts.

and i've had the same experience with those on the right side of the line as well as those from "outside"...its that same sh¡t....overal generalizations dont make conversation and discussion and neither group is immune from it...

especially when the post starts out" your lefties/righties....it usually decends into spitting contest..and there is not justification for it

actually it just occured to me..the "funnier aspect of this discussion were having via the internet...your not exactly very "far away"....i'm working in my office in Netanya....phone calls are also possible: 0544745713

[Ophra]

You should really read some of the Haaretz articles that Ophra's been posting.

Well Binyamin all I can say is that when I posted the articles that you mention you had your chance to debate the points brought up just like everybody else on here did .... did you ?????

Going by your place of residence and by your sig and by your previous posts ... I am convinced you are one of our sweet pure HillTop Youth .... kindly correct me if I am wrong ... and maybe let us know what you do believe in and what you would replace our secular Democracy with ..as ... going by this "" Democracy is but a small price to pay "' you don't seem to think it's worth much .

[SteveK]

and i've had the same experience with those on the right side of the line as well as those from "outside"...its that same sh¡t....overal generalizations dont make conversation and discussion and neither group is immune from it...

especially when the post starts out" your lefties/righties....it usually decends into spitting contest..and there is not justification for it

actually it just occured to me..the "funnier aspect of this discussion were having via the internet...your not exactly very "far away"....i'm working in my office in Netanya....phone calls are also possible: 0544745713


pelsar,

What's you business? Maybe if I need your products or services, I'll contact you.

And, more importantly, what goods are you Israeli atheists (truer to your character than "lefty"?) trying to sell The State of Israel?

[Ophra]

no one laughed from the pictures of the pull out.
i guess its a classic case of "just because you're paranoid, does not mean they're not after you"

I agree . I know of nobody that laughed . It was tragic but necessary .
Most of Israel was weeping .

[pelsar]

pelsar,

What's you business?

you'll love this one:

marketing......

I produce marketing materials mainly for the export market with volunteer/subsidized work for the local productions (a memorial brochure for the 73 soldiers that were killed in the helicopter crash years ago for example...)


http://www.vistaspinner.com/

a better definition of me would be a "cultural jew"

[Ophra]

no steve I can differentiate between the hilltopyouth/eigalamir/fanatical rabbis and the general right....i dont see that when the "left is discussed".

shall we discuss how the right eggs on the hilltopyouth to fight the security forces and attempted to injure them?...how the rabbis at kfra drom didnt give a sh¡t if the roof of the synagogue made of kalpac could have collapsed with all those kids inside and on the roof, thereyby making some martyrs for the cause?....how about that nice lady who set herself on fire?...why is the right encouraging such feats?...shall we discuss how the right wants to massacre all the arabs like four of their members already have....perhaps we should go and check into why the religious soldiers have problem with orders....seems more than a few wouldnt carry out the orders from the state....i believe that borders on mutiney...is the right loyal to their local rabbi or the state?...cant have both...i believe that all of those on the right should go through a loyalty test, least we get another igal amir who believes that they have the right to kill anyone who disagrees with them...shall i go on?....seems to me the right feels that they can do what ever they please...as long as they have a local rabbi to bless them.

what was it that one of the youth said at neve dekalim when the local rabbi told them to stop destroying IDF equipment...oh yes, one of them answered that THEIR RABBI said it was a mitza...gosh seems our right has not just one master but several....after they eliminate the left, we'll have rabbis pitting their loyal right wing students against each other...doing what they do best...being violent..i could go on, and of course we could get to those who want to dictatorship/theocracy based on a governing model that is no longer relevant to todays society...you know the kind where some people have more rights than others...where if you dont follow the rules you can be banned from society with no appeal...i believe we can see some of the results in iran for a preview of that kind of society

Completely agree with everything you posted above pelsar.... and I am not a Leftist ;)

[SteveK]

you'll love this one:

marketing......

I produce marketing materials mainly for the export market with volunteer/subsidized work for the local productions (a memorial brochure for the 73 soldiers that were killed in the helicopter crash years ago for example...)


http://www.vistaspinner.com/

a better definition of me would be a "cultural jew"


Pelsar,

You are correct. I do love it.

Your name of "Vistaspinner" is so appropriate.

But, this is the only vista and its spinning that I realize from your posts:

That you are the marketing agent for the goods that your Israeli government is trying to sell: a spin, and a very dangerous spin, a national tail spin, of Jewish and Zionist spiritual and moral bankruptcy, for the future of The State of Israel for appeasement and surrender to the whims of the Arabs and the goyim.

I guess you wouldn't accept clients seeking to advance a Torah nation here in Israel. Would you?

[pelsar]

Pelsar,

You are correct. I do love it.

Your name of "Vistaspinner" is so appropriate.

But, this is the only vista and its spinning that I realize from your posts:

That you are the marketing agent for the goods that your Israeli government is trying to sell: a spin, and a very dangerous spin, a national tail spin, of Jewish and Zionist spiritual and moral bankruptcy, for the future of The State of Israel for appeasement and surrender to the whims of the Arabs and the goyim.

I guess you wouldn't accept clients seeking to advance a Torah nation here in Israel. Would you?

well my brother/partner who runs the haifa office wouldnt have a problem with that, though it might depend on your defintions....we refused years ago to do a communist newsletter.....and we did work together with my friend who is a jew for jesus...so though we do have our own red lines...its an individual thing.

but the religious aspect is closer to his life style..as he lives in Hoshiya (religious settlement near goloni junction), though I did just finish a cover design for Nishmat (religious girls education).....oops zionist apeasment oriented girls learning school

[SteveK]

well my brother/partner who runs the haifa office wouldnt have a problem with that, though it might depend on your defintions....we refused years ago to do a communist newsletter.....and we did work together with my friend who is a jew for jesus...so though we do have our own red lines...its an individual thing.

but the religious aspect is closer to his life style..as he lives in Hoshiya (religious settlement near goloni junction), though I did just finish a cover design for Nishmat (religious girls education).....oops zionist apeasment oriented girls learning school

Pelsar,

The first rule of marketing is to believe in the product yourself that you want to sell to others.

Could you really "sell" The Living God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Israeli Nation?

Does His Mount Sinai revelation to the ancient Jewish Nation, and His Torah pass any of your red lines?

And, does would client here appreciate your sense of humor:

Pelsar:

... though I did just finish a cover design for Nishmat (religious girls education).....oops zionist apeasment oriented girls learning school

[pelsar]

Pelsar,

The first rule of marketing is to believe in the product yourself that you want to sell to others.

Could you really "sell" The Living God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Israeli Nation?

Does His Mount Sinai revelation to the ancient Jewish Nation, and His Torah pass any of your red lines?

And, does would client here appreciate your sense of humor:

nah design work doesnt always require that we "believe in it"..perhaps if its a complete campaign...but on the "lower level" which may be just a brochure/website etc..i can be pretty "shallow"..and make something look nice...my sense of humor...well it has cost me client or two over the years...but i still maintain it...i do have my principles. (actually I prefer to be comfortable with the subject...)

anyway if your serious..give me a call

[SteveK]

nah design work doesnt always require that we "believe in it"..perhaps if its a complete campaign...but on the "lower level" which may be just a brochure/website etc..i can be pretty "shallow"..and make something look nice...my sense of humor...well it has cost me client or two over the years...but i still maintain it...i do have my principles. (actually I prefer to be comfortable with the subject...)

anyway if your serious..give me a call


Pelsar,

I think you have read what's on God's mind now for the Jewish Nation:

anyway if your serious..give me a call

[redcake]

The Leftists don't want to be Leftists even though they agree with the Leftists who they say make up the entirety of Israel which they believe has a political paradigm based on majority rules because someone told them majority rules is a democracy and they're all for a democracy because they're told that a democracy means seperation of church and state, even though they're living in the Jewish homeland, and a democracy protects the best interests of all including the fringe which still doesn't exlain why they want to marginalize the left as fringe while proclaiming they're the mainstream majority of Isrealis. Oh wait. They just don't want to be written off for what they are! I get it.


Look the Holocaust was politicized before the Israeli disengagement of 2005 got to it. It's pretty token to take issue with it now... genocide, mass murders with huge death tolls, internment camps, and EXPULSION will always be linked with the Holocaust.

[pelsar]

The Leftists don't want to be Leftists even though they agree with the Leftists who they say make up the entirety of Israel which they believe has a political paradigm based on majority rules because someone told them majority rules is a democracy and they're all for a democracy because they're told that a democracy means seperation of church and state, even though they're living in the Jewish homeland, and a democracy protects the best interests of all including the fringe which still doesn't exlain why they want to marginalize the left as fringe while proclaiming they're the mainstream majority of Isrealis. Oh wait. They just don't want to be written off for what they are! I get it..

....sorry if israeli politics are a bit complicated....but then it does explain your posts

[redcake]

I didn't stutter. My point is very clear. You can respond to it, or you can just call me simple, for laying it out to you simply. Are you going to cop out and make every thread you're in about disputing the term "Leftist" ?

[drdon]

I didn't stutter. My point is very clear. You can respond to it, or you can just call me simple, for laying it out to you simply. Are you going to cop out and make every thread you're in about disputing the term "Leftist" ?

As pelsar should dispute.

words usually have meaning,and sometimes words have NO meaning. The word leftist whether in the US (WHERE ITS USED AN AN INVECTIVE) or israel can paint many people with pre-determined opinions. Convenient but not true.

By using the now used word "leftist" to categorize a group of people with divergent AND with often always with shades of diffenences fails to take into account the varied views....in this case of of the pullout from gaza.

Did I support the withdrawl of gaza?....I had mixed emotions and i would have hoped the terrorstinians would have earned that by their actions.And no objective person could say their has been A N Y actions that warrented that.

Rather than labeling anyone who thought the gaza pullout as "leftists" , it might be more useful to specifically identify those groups (like peace now) who supported the disengagement for all the wrong reasons.

[pelsar]

The Leftists don't want to be Leftists even though they agree with the Leftists who they say make up the entirety of Israel which they believe has a political paradigm based on majority rules because someone told them majority rules is a democracy and they're all for a democracy because they're told that a democracy means seperation of church and state, even though they're living in the Jewish homeland, and a democracy protects the best interests of all including the fringe which still doesn't exlain why they want to marginalize the left as fringe while proclaiming they're the mainstream majority of Isrealis. Oh wait. They just don't want to be written off for what they are! I get it.

whats to comment on?....the author has simply made some generalizations and assumptions and lumped them all together, made some further generalizations and came up with a conclusion, that he likes but has nothing to do with israeli politics:

it reminds me of the anti israeli posts I read elsewhere, where the premise is the IDF targets civilians....why?...because most of the palestenains who have been shot were wearing civilian clothes...and then it continues in to the number of "minors killed......the whole premis is to demonizes with no respect for truth or even a hint of it....nor is there much to argue with since that is not what the post is about...its about putting for a certain view...much like the above post.


the contrast is this:
the right wing, the producers of the hilltopyouth try to marginalize them while adoring them at the sametime. These idealistic lads and their violent tendancies and lack of respect towards all leaderships may appear to be at odds with the right wing leadership but thats just a smokescreen, for the hilltopyouth are precisly what the rightwing is made up of and celebrates: violent anarchy going for taliban style theorcratic rule based on the neighborhood rabbis interperatation of the torah....same nonsense

[Ophra]

The Leftists don't want to be Leftists even though they agree with the Leftists who they say make up the entirety of Israel which they believe has a political paradigm based on majority rules because someone told them majority rules is a democracy and they're all for a democracy because they're told that a democracy means seperation of church and state, even though they're living in the Jewish homeland, and a democracy protects the best interests of all including the fringe which still doesn't exlain why they want to marginalize the left as fringe while proclaiming they're the mainstream majority of Isrealis. Oh wait. They just don't want to be written off for what they are! I get it.


Look the Holocaust was politicized before the Israeli disengagement of 2005 got to it. It's pretty token to take issue with it now... genocide, mass murders with huge death tolls, internment camps, and EXPULSION will always be linked with the Holocaust.

No redcake... you and others on here use "leftist" as an insult without any reference to a political reality as we know it here in Israel . You lump all secular as "leftists" ... which is a huge mistake on your part because amongst the secular there is all varieties of political believes . Take Sharon and Bibi as an example .... are they "leftists" redcake ??

[Ophra]

the contrast is this:
the right wing, the producers of the hilltopyouth try to marginalize them while adoring them at the sametime. These idealistic lads and their violent tendancies and lack of respect towards all leaderships may appear to be at odds with the right wing leadership but thats just a smokescreen, for the hilltopyouth are precisly what the rightwing is made up of and celebrates: violent anarchy going for taliban style theorcratic rule based on the neighborhood rabbis interperatation of the torah....same nonsense

Here I disagree with you pelsar .... the above description fits the religious right .... it does not fit the secular right.

[Mira]

No redcake... you and others on here use "leftist" as an insult without any reference to a political reality as we know it here in Israel . You lump all secular as "leftists" ... which is a huge mistake on your part because amongst the secular there is all varieties of political believes . Take Sharon and Bibi as an example .... are they "leftists" redcake ??


Who here lumps all secular as leftists? I know redcake doesn't. So who does this?

[redcake]

Right well...glad you found your soapox.... sorry it's glued to your shoes.

There are many diverse opinions here regarding the disengagement - few of us are using it as the litmus test for labeling someone a Lefty or Righty. You say you understand the complexities of Israel's politics - but now you've carried this issue into two discussions.

Back to the Holocaust - we as a Jewish community have failed to protect the sanctitive memory of the event....when the memorials are desecrated we don't march in force. When stupid college kids march with Swastika signs over Bush's face, we let it slide. The only time it creates a huge uproar is when it's done by Jews.

[redcake]

You lump all secularists..... . are they "leftists" redcake ??

That's your crusade to care about. You view Secularists, and the Religious as being at opposing sides of the spectrum. I don't.

(if you can't let this topic die, then carry it on in the thread Pelsar made for it).

[Ophra]

Who here lumps all secular as leftists? I know redcake doesn't. So who does this?

Oh come on Mira ... who are you kidding :rolleyes:
You've all been calling me a Leftist since I joined here.... I'm a secular conservative Mira .
Don't you have these in America .... I think you call them Republicans ;)

[Ophra]

That's your crusade to care about. You view Secularists, and the Religious as being at opposing sides of the spectrum. I don't.

(if you can't let this topic die, then carry it on in the thread Pelsar made for it).

:D .... there you go ... telling me what to do again .

Bibi doesn't view Secularists and the Religious as being at opposing sides of the spectrum.... he will use the Religious right these coming elections like they have never been used before ... then he will dump them the first chance he gets.

I view the Religious far-right as a bunch of messianic madmen ... Steve is a great example ;)

[redcake]

A great deal of secularists would support SteveK's right to be a messianic madman. Ones stance on religion and ones political stance need not be one in the same - except in your case, in which you can't seperate the two.

Of course, there is a pervasive attitude amongst Leftists evident in how they portray anyone who can see value in Israel's religious heritage.

[Mediocrates]

Oh come on Mira ... who are you kidding :rolleyes:
You've all been calling me a Leftist since I joined here.... I'm a secular conservative Mira .
Don't you have these in America .... I think you call them Republicans ;)


We call them 'special'

[Mediocrates]

It seems that what you're arguing about is a name. So the Ophra's hate being called 'Left' almost as much as they hate being called 'Jewish'.


You what WE call those people?????



skinheads

[pelsar]

Here I disagree with you pelsar .... the above description fits the religious right .... it does not fit the secular right.

i know...i was just trying to show how nonsense the junk about the "left" was written

[pelsar]

It seems that what you're arguing about is a name. So the Ophra's hate being called 'Left' almost as much as they hate being called 'Jewish'.


no they hate being put into a wrongfull description that doesnt fit the israeli environment by people who either dont know anybetter, refuse to learn or simply just cant deal with ideas that dont fit the preconceived ideas...and consequently attach to them some kind of "negative stereotype".... i'll let you figure out what the english definition of what kind of person that is.....

[Ophra]

A great deal of secularists would support SteveK's right to be a messianic madman. Ones stance on religion and ones political stance need not be one in the same - except in your case, in which you can't seperate the two.

Of course, there is a pervasive attitude amongst Leftists evident in how they portray anyone who can see value in Israel's religious heritage.

Oh I support SteveK's right to be a messianic madman as much as he likes... as long as he does not break the Laws of the State of Israel , unlike so many of his fellows have.

Ones stance on religion and ones political stance should be kept completely seperate redcake... I don't care what religion one follows.. they don't mix and they should not mix. Isn't that what you have in America???

"" except in your case, in which you can't seperate the two. ""
Ahhhhhh... but I want to seperate the two ... which is why I will probably be voting Shinui soon :)

[redcake]

It seems that what you're arguing about is a name. So the Ophra's hate being called 'Left' almost as much as they hate being called 'Jewish'.

Exactly.

Hey Ophra, if there's a kinder term for "Secular Leftist Israeli Arab", let me know. I didn't realize it was a slur.

[Ophra]

It seems that what you're arguing about is a name. So the Ophra's hate being called 'Left' almost as much as they hate being called 'Jewish'.


You what WE call those people?????



skinheads

Stay out of a conversation you are too cynical to understand Medio .

[redcake]

Isn't that what you have in America???

You don't live in America. You live in Israel...a Jewish State. A unique socialist democracy with a parliament, and no constitution. You want to change Israel's infrastructure and character to serve your own needs, but a real Democracy doesn't function that way - and neither does America. You should visit here, before you try and emulate what you think we have here.


Pelsar : "that dont fit the preconceived ideas...and consequently attach to them some kind of "negative stereotype"...."

That sounds like an admission of guilt You see it as a negative. Why feel guilt and shame in your own politics if you stand behind them as just.

[Ophra]

Exactly.

Hey Ophra, if there's a kinder term for "Secular Leftist Israeli Arab", let me know. I didn't realize it was a slur.

I knew from day one you were not an Israeli redcake ... dual citizenship or not.... you do not understand one thing about us .. political or otherwise ...you are a typical Diaspora Jew with a mentality of a Diaspora Jew just like Medio (and just like the settlers), who to his honor has at least admitted that he has never ever been here.... but you fake it redcake... you are a fake Israeli.

[pelsar]

"that dont fit the preconceived ideas...and consequently attach to them some kind of "negative stereotype"...."

That sounds like an admission of guilt You see it as a negative. Why feel guilt and shame in your own politics if you stand behind them as just.

i have absolutly no idea what you talking about........actually calling a ophra a "skinhead"...is beyond pathetic and enters the realm of the "outer rim"

[pelsar]

I knew from day one you were not an Israeli redcake ... dual citizenship or not.... you do not understand one thing about us .. political or otherwise ...you are a typical Diaspora Jew with a mentality of a Diaspora Jew just like Medio (and just like the settlers), who to his honor has at least admitted that he has never ever been here.... but you fake it redcake... you are a fake Israeli.

ophra...thats obvious....that he's has no understanding of israelis, our politics our livestyle. He has confused his fantasy of the jewish religion with israel with the reality of the jewish culture/religion within israel

[drdon]

ophra...thats obvious....that he's has no understanding of israelis, our politics our livestyle. He has confused his fantasy of the jewish religion with israel with the reality of the jewish culture/religion within israel

1000% spot on. And not only that, he wants to confuse Right and Left USA politics and transfer it to israeli politics and the crossover doesnt work.

Redcake .....the unspeakable horror that israel endures does not lend itself to such simplistic politics. Sorry. It IS easy to sit comfortably and pontificate.

[redcake]

Yes, Ophra... I am an American Jew. The joys of being senile, you can relive your big revelations on a daily basis. Now since you think you possess a superior knowledge of your government, would you like to demonstrate your ability to make a proper rebutal?

Pelsar - Your uneducated summation of Israel's politics matches your undeducated summation of the persona's in this forum. In other words, sit down, and sort it out on your own time. We KNOW you don't understand. We can see that. You're defending the worst offendor of generalized condemnations.

[pelsar]

Pelsar - Your uneducated summation of Israel's politics matches your undeducated summation of the persona's in this forum. In other words, sit down, and sort it out on your own time. We KNOW you don't understand. We can see that. You're defending the worst offendor of generalized condemnations.

from what i've seen so far redcake.....you by far make the most generalized comments against the "left" as "self hating jews, givers away of the holy land....etc etc etc and that left seems to be anybody who doesnt have some kind of jewish definition according to your formula.....even when by israeli definitions they arent even "left"

[SteveK]

A great deal of secularists would support SteveK's right to be a messianic madman. Ones stance on religion and ones political stance need not be one in the same - except in your case, in which you can't seperate the two.

Of course, there is a pervasive attitude amongst Leftists evident in how they portray anyone who can see value in Israel's religious heritage.


redcake,

You know and they know that I want a Torah Nation here in Israel. This is a topic for my thread: "Issues for a National Torah Leadership In Israel". I don't need Ophra's approval to work for this agenda here in Israel.
Israel is my Country too.

However, a Torah nation is all about the resolution of God into State, so my "politics" and my "religion" are actually tied together. This is what scares the holy $hit out of Her Majesty here. I am not for the separation of "religion" and "state". I want God out of the four walls of the synagogues.

I have made my point clear many times before that the true Jewish heritage is about the "political" God, and not just the "personal" God.

So, I guess that the atheists, idolators, and uncircumcized Philistines of Israel do have reason to fear that Israelis like me are "madmen". If you don't have faith in The Living God of Israel, then nothing else will follow except for the standard anti-God and anti-Jewish rhetoric that Ophra quotes everybody else on, but never is able to form any solid wording of her own.

My guidance is mainly through the teachings of Rebbe Nachman of Breslov.
He visited Israel from the year 1798 - 1799 and then returned to Russia.
He died at the age of 38 in about 1810. So, I guess his communities of Russian Jews were those religious Jews who Ophra was taught to despise and hate and malign by her beloved grandmother, may she rest in peace.

And, Ophra and her gang are just a small band of renegades for me. There are millions of you out in the diaspora who are perverting the Jewish heritage too, and even worse than is Ophra who is here for generations and has built and maintains the "vessel",--- even though that "vessel" is a spiritually empty one still.

I'll cover more details on my thread soon enough about the issues involved.

Thanks for your support, redcake. But, I don't know how long it will last.

[redcake]

from what i've seen so far redcake.....you by far make the most generalized comments against the "left" as "self hating jews, givers away of the holy land....etc etc etc and that left seems to be anybody who doesnt have some kind of jewish definition according to your formula.....even when by israeli definitions they arent even "left"

Qoute me. In context please. K, thanks.

You're probably unaware that I've put up my dukes and been called both the Atheist Leftist, and an Orthodox representative of the Religious Right.... so keep that in mind, and ask yourself how that could be.

H'bout less identity politics, more debating the specific issues?

[drdon]

H'bout less identity politics, more debating the specific issues?

Great idea.

[GabysPoppy]

Yes, Ophra... I am an American Jew. The joys of being senile, you can relive your big revelations on a daily basis. Now since you think you possess a superior knowledge of your government, would you like to demonstrate your ability to make a proper rebutal?

Pelsar - Your uneducated summation of Israel's politics matches your undeducated summation of the persona's in this forum. In other words, sit down, and sort it out on your own time. We KNOW you don't understand. We can see that. You're defending the worst offendor of generalized condemnations.

Put on an IDF uniform and man a checkpoint before opening your vile mouth.

[Ophra]

H'bout less identity politics, more debating the specific issues?

You won't get any debates out of any of us until you learn when to draw the line with the insults and the abuse.

[drdon]

Put on an IDF uniform and man a checkpoint before opening your vile mouth.


HEY...Are you that famous Gabyspoppy from DU?

The guy who singlehandedly eviserated every terrorstinian suck up and made them look like the hitler youth that they are?


If youre that guy, you are welcome here. Man, you are like royalty.

Pleasure to meet you. Youre a legend.

[redcake]

Yeah, our loss huh Ophra? Copy paste copy paste.

This is pretty hilarious. I'll tell you kids what. Make a thread. Bring up a specific issue you presume you have an oppossing viewpoint on.... and we'll debate it. I do my best to back up all my opinions factually.

[SteveK]

Put on an IDF uniform and man a checkpoint before opening your vile mouth.

GabysPoppy,

From what cave did you fly out of buddy?

[SteveK]

You won't get any debates out of any of us until you learn when to draw the line with the insults and the abuse.


But, I'm not a crybaby when Ophra calls me a religious messianic madman.
Is this how she manipulates her family too? I always wondered why her
high ranking army officer husband never made a post here. Or her son who writes dirty violent pm's to minusthejihad.

[GabysPoppy]

GabysPoppy,

From what cave did you fly out of buddy?

And your problem is what?

[drdon]

GabysPoppy,

From what cave did you fly out of buddy?

Steve k.....whatever youre thinking youre wrong. Trust me, this guy knows what hes talking about.

Obviously you dont keep tract of the blog world.

[SteveK]

And your problem is what?

Keep flying. I'm still trying to determine the specie.

[GabysPoppy]

Keep flying. I'm still trying to determine the specie.

Try flying with your eyes open. Keeps you from crashing into a wall.

[SteveK]

Steve k.....whatever youre thinking youre wrong. Trust me, this guy knows what hes talking about.

Obviously you dont keep tract of the blog world.


And, redcake also knows what he is talking about. I have had numerous dialogs with redcake over the months. We may be in diagreement much of the time and at odds, but I have seen a solid Jewish core in this person over the last few days with his posts, given the national tradgedy of this expulsion of Jews from Gaza.

So, tell your idol and mentor and shtick dreck GabbyPoppy to go flap his jaws and loose dentures at the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers here.

[drdon]

So, tell your idol and mentor and shtick dreck GabbyPoppy to go flap his jaws and loose dentures at the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers here.

I suspect he will.

As will I.

[Ophra]

But, I'm not a crybaby when Ophra calls me a religious messianic madman.
Is this how she manipulates her family too? I always wondered why her
high ranking army officer husband never made a post here. Or her son who writes dirty violent pm's to minusthejihad.

You are a religious messianic madman.... and you never stop crying about it non-stop. Tell me something Steve... if you are so strong about your believes on-line why did you admit to be such a coward about your believes to not even wear a kippa in public ?? .... weird :confused:

My "high ranking army officer husband never made a post here" because he has been too busy organizing and participating in the disengagement :D (j/k)

FYI my son was defending me from minusthejihad's physical threats and harassment on here .

I don't manipulate my family Steve... they back me to the hilt ... BTW Steve , how many kids do you have again ? ;)

[SteveK]

You are a religious messianic madman.... and you never stop crying about it non-stop. Tell me something Steve... if you are so strong about your believes on-line why did you admit to be such a coward about your believes to not even wear a kippa in public ?? .... weird :confused:

My "high ranking army officer husband never made a post here" because he has been too busy organizing and participating in the disengagement :D (j/k)

FYI my son was defending me from minusthejihad's physical threats and harassment on here .

I don't manipulate my family Steve... they back me to the hilt ... BTW Steve , how many kids do you have again ? ;)


Ophra,

Why the hysteria?

Who can discuss anything with you when you come at a person like some hill billy of Kentucky with a double barrelled shotgun?

Calm down.

You can respond later on my thread: "Issues for a National Torah Leadership In Israel", when I present more details concerning a Torah Nation.

[GabysPoppy]

And, redcake also knows what he is talking about. I have had numerous dialogs with redcake over the months. We may be in diagreement much of the time and at odds, but I have seen a solid Jewish core in this person over the last few days with his posts, given the national tradgedy of this expulsion of Jews from Gaza.

So, tell your idol and mentor and shtick dreck GabbyPoppy to go flap his jaws and loose dentures at the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers here.

You want shtick dreck, look in the mirror. Your buddy redcake is nothing but a keyboard commando. He knows dreck compared to Pelsar.

Comparing the heartbreak of 8000 Israelis with the safety and security of millions of Israelis is having your head up your .

So go ahead bigshot and tell me what is more important. Spending more on protecting this area or putting in more to the Israeli community? Spending more on defending Gaza or completing and strengthing the security fence?

I have more sympathy for these 8000 people than you have reality of the entire picture. You have sympathy for 8000 settlers and I have concern for Israel. So shove your shtick dreck up your tuchas.

[SteveK]

You want shtick dreck, look in the mirror. Your buddy redcake is nothing but a keyboard commando. He knows dreck compared to Pelsar.

Comparing the heartbreak of 8000 Israelis with the safety and security of millions of Israelis is having your head up your .

So go ahead bigshot and tell me what is more important. Spending more on protecting this area or putting in more to the Israeli community? Spending more on defending Gaza or completing and strengthing the security fence?

I have more sympathy for these 8000 people than you have reality of the entire picture. You have sympathy for 8000 settlers and I have concern for Israel. So shove your shtick dreck up your tuchas.


GabysPoppy,

Next to you, shmuck, redcake is a Rhodes Scholar.

[GabysPoppy]

GabysPoppy,

Next to you, shmuck, redcake is a Rhodes Scholar.

The response of an idiot.

Try answering my questions and show us how smart you really are. Knowing a few Yiddish words just raises you to the level of moron.

[drdon]

GabysPoppy,

Next to you, shmuck, redcake is a Rhodes Scholar.

Was that reeeeally necessary ?

'How to make friends and influence people'.


Ive read his posts....you guys have a lot more in common than you know. sheeesh.

[SteveK]

The response of an idiot.

Try answering my questions and show us how smart you really are. Knowing a few Yiddish words just raises you to the level of moron.


GabysPoppy,

When were you last in Israel?

Israel is my home for the last 24 years.

Alta-Kaaker Yid from N.Y.

[NewsGuy]

i'm going to generalize here...as this site seems to have a constant "extreme view" of the "leftie" placing them in the same boat as the Jew-haters.

well mr newsguy....i dont know of a single "leftie" that celebrated the evacuation...and i know many here in israel. So I and many leftie israelis would appreciate if you would differntiate from the lefties you have in your head (in the states?) vs the israeli lefties i know, work with and fight with.

Well, I have read several despicable editorials in the Israeli papers this week by verious Leftists like Sabar Plotzker and Amos Oz, all of whom mocked the expelled settlers for being meek and not making good on the threats to use violence. The Leftists actually saw this as something to poke fun at the settlers for.

There was also an obnoxious tone on all of the anti-settler editorials by the Leftists, in which they actually have the nerve to blame the settlers for living in settlements that were built, funded and populated by several Israeli governments. The settlers were vilified to look like they are a national problem and that the settlers were responsible for Israel being attacked by the Islamic terrorists, not the terrorists themselves, of course.

I also read non-stop insults about the settlers and other religious Jews being "lunatic messianics." That expression is being used about what? 15 or 20 times a day in the Israeli press?

I also noticed a cartoon run this week, in which a religious mother was forcing her boy to take a bath and he was wearing a Holocaust-era Jewish star, an orange shirt and protesting that he was forced to take his bath. The idea was that the expelled settlers were crybabies.

Overall, the Leftists are of course celebrating their huge victory over the settlers. This is by far the biggest (or maybe only) "achievement" of the Leftists, if you can call it that, and there is great celebration. We know that the majority of Leftists hate the religious Jews more than they hate Islamic suicide bombers, and we know that the forced expulsion of Jewish families in the Leftists idea. So they won, and they are celebrating and further attacking their victims, as I pointed out above.

Sure, you can tell me that some Leftists are like this or like that, and do this or that in the army, but in the end, the Leftist idea is based on creating a terrorist Muslim Jew-free state on much of the Jewish homeland.

The Leftists believe that this will appease the Jihadists and the Islamic terrorists will then start loving Jews and will be willing to share the land peacefully. That's what the Leftists movement is all about. Some went down to the Mukata to act as human shields for Arafat, and some would not. There are various degrees of “Leftism,” but there is a common thread, and one which is very troublesome.

[NewsGuy]

The response of an idiot.

Try answering my questions and show us how smart you really are. Knowing a few Yiddish words just raises you to the level of moron.
You're right about that. SteveK is a perfect example of someone who has something of substance to say occasionally, but is so repulsive in his mannerisms that any benefit he offers is lost.

Please don't be put off by SteveK, and please continue to participate freely.

[GabysPoppy]

GabysPoppy,

When were you last in Israel?

Israel is my home for the last 24 years.

Alta-Kaaker Yid from N.Y.

Last Labor Day(almost a month) and probably about 25 times all told. I have one niece who just finished service and one starting in less than a year. Enough friends with kids serving that I rush to see names after every terrorist attack. Two degrees of separation with 2 kids blown apart by these ****ing suicide bombers. Yiskor spent sitting behind the kid's dad. One week separation from being blown up at Mike's Place. My niece's best friend killing herself over the despair of her cousin being blown to bits by another .

This alta-Kaaker from NY doesn't need a lecture from anyone.

[SteveK]

You're right about that. SteveK is a perfect example of someone who has something of substance to say occasionally, but is so repulsive in his mannerisms that any benefit he offers is lost.

Please don't be put off by SteveK, and please continue to participate freely.


NewsGuy,

The real ISRAELFORUM is my Country, The State of Israel.

Maybe, you would like to make aliyah here, and increase your benefit to us here,--- substantially?

[SteveK]

Last Labor Day(almost a month) and probably about 25 times all told. I have one niece who just finished service and one starting in less than a year. Enough friends with kids serving that I rush to see names after every terrorist attack. Two degrees of separation with 2 kids blown apart by these ing suicide bombers. Yiskor spent sitting behind the kid's dad. One week separation from being blown up at Mike's Place. My niece's best friend killing herself over the despair of her cousin being blown to bits by another .

This alta-Kaaker from NY doesn't need a lecture from anyone.


GabbysPoppy,

Turn your attention to the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers on this forum.

And, why didn't you make aliyah 25 visit times ago?

[GabysPoppy]

GabbysPoppy,

Turn your attention to the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers on this forum.

And, why didn't you make aliyah 25 visit times ago?

Not that it's any of your business but I had a wife then who didn't want to go. I was asked by a kibbutz to set up printing plant at the time but the JAP didn't know if a Bloomingdale's outlet was within driving distance.

My only other objection would be arrogant, holier than thou jerks like yourself.

Yours is an attitude that gives israelis a bad name.

[SteveK]

Not that it's any of your business but I had a wife then who didn't want to go. I was asked by a kibbutz to set up printing plant at the time but the JAP didn't know if a Bloomingdale's outlet was within driving distance.

My only other objection would be arrogant, holier than thou jerks like yourself.

Yours is an attitude that gives israelis a bad name.


GabysPoppy,

Give me a few more excuses for your not having made aliyah,--- and holding American suburban Christian land instead of your own Jewish Homeland.

[goliath]

And during the mean time , we have to assist to the killing of our people under the action of nice "Martyrs " , even today , it's seems not to be really a political position , but someyhing more important.......Israel.....

[Mira]

Oh come on Mira ... who are you kidding :rolleyes:
You've all been calling me a Leftist since I joined here.... I'm a secular conservative Mira .
Don't you have these in America .... I think you call them Republicans ;)

I told you before, I never called you a secular leftist. I called you a cranky old hooker, that's about it. Oh, and you are prejudiced against observant Jews and Americans. Other than that, I don't know very much about you or your politics.

[GabysPoppy]

GabysPoppy,

Give me a few more excuses for your not having made aliyah,--- and holding American suburban Christian land instead of your own Jewish Homeland.

I've already wasted 30 minutes of my life discussing anything with you. Maybe when you answer my questions there might be a reason to continue this .

Your ignoring my questions just labels you as a bully who cowers when confronted. In the States we still call that chicken**** if you can remember those days. In fact in Israel they probably call it the same thing.

[SteveK]

I've already wasted 30 minutes of my life discussing anything with you. Maybe when you answer my questions there might be a reason to continue this .

Your ignoring my questions just labels you as a bully who cowers when confronted. In the States we still call that chicken**** if you can remember those days. In fact in Israel they probably call it the same thing.


GabysPoppy,

Do you pull your lines out of some cereal box comic strips,--- what,--- Kellogg's Special K, or maybe Post Whole Wheat Bran Flakes?

And, speaking of wasted time, I'm afraid that you don't know your own tuchus from a hole in the ground when it comes to the issues of Israel.

[redcake]

Put on an IDF uniform and man a checkpoint before opening your vile mouth.

Can I borrow your IDF uniform?? Or are you more about just keeping busy by calling strangers on the internet vile?

I'm reading 3 presumptious sock puppets who have barely made 200 posts all combined making scolding comments about my politics. Like I said. You know what I stand for so well, then make a post, and we'll debate it. Aight, gramps?

[Mediocrates]

Stay out of a conversation you are too cynical to understand Medio .


Your white sheet is showing.

[Ophra]

Your white sheet is showing.

.... and your sheet with a hole in it is showing ;)...... does your wife wear a wig ???

[Mediocrates]

I can smell your cross burning from here you pig.

[pelsar]

but in the end, the Leftist idea is based on creating a terrorist Muslim Jew-free state on much of the Jewish homeland.

They Leftists believe that this will appease the Jihadists and the Islamic terrorists will then start loving Jews and will be willing to share the land peacefully. That's what the Leftists movement is all about.

Some went down to the Mukata to act as human shields for Arafat, and some would not. There are various degrees of “Leftism,” but there is a common thread, and one which is very troublesome.

boy are you way off.....your wish to demonize the lsraeli left and have a "nice enemy"....has made you blind to what the mainstream israeli left is all about.

I'll give you a hint: the israeli left really is not interested in appeasing the jihadnikim....start with that

[NewsGuy]

boy are you way off.....your wish to demonize the lsraeli left and have a "nice enemy"....has made you blind to what the mainstream israeli left is all about.

I'll give you a hint: the israeli left really is not interested in appeasing the jihadnikim....start with that

You can decide that I'm "way off," but I didn't just come up with an opinion out of thin air -- I backed it up with many facts that you conveniently ignored.

Care to respond to the facts I mentioned?

[redcake]

I'll give you a hint: the israeli left really is not interested in appeasing the jihadnikim....start with that

I'll give you a hint. Menachim Begin presented the first plan offering Palestinian Autonomy in 1978, with a prerequisite barring the PLO participating. The Labor Party pushed the autonomy plan through ..... with the PLO. There was an approval rating at the time which peaked in the 70% range.

[pelsar]

I'll give you a hint. Menachim Begin presented the first plan offering Palestinian Autonomy in 1978, with a prerequisite barring the PLO participating. The Labor Party pushed the autonomy plan through ..... with the PLO. There was an approval rating at the time which peaked in the 70% range.

you've confused appeasement with self interest

[pelsar]

You can decide that I'm "way off," but I didn't just come up with an opinion out of thin air -- I backed it up with many facts that you conveniently ignored.

Care to respond to the facts I mentioned?

here these are called absurd statements that have no basis in the israeli mainstream left: How do I know this?...cause I talk to, live with, work with, see TV, read papers....with many members of the mainstream left.....




We know that the majority of Leftists hate the religious Jews more than they hate Islamic suicide bombers

but in the end, the Leftist idea is based on creating a terrorist Muslim Jew-free state on much of the Jewish homeland.

The Leftists believe that this will appease the Jihadists and the Islamic terrorists will then start loving Jews


and this is an example of your problem: inability to seperate the loonly left with the mainstream:

Some went down to the Mukata to act as human shields for Arafat, and some would not.

[pelsar]

GabbysPoppy,

Turn your attention to the NAZIS and Arab terrorist sympathizers on this forum.

sorry steve..your in the wrong forum for such nonsense....isnt tolerence part of your "living god" beliefs?

[minusthejihad]

You won't get any debates out of any of us until you learn when to draw the line with the insults and the abuse.

LOL!

[minusthejihad]

FYI my son was defending me from minusthejihad's physical threats and harassment on here .

LOL! You are a trip. I'm shivering in my shorts. Put your kid on a plane and bring it!

[Ophra]

I can smell your cross burning from here you pig.

We have a saying over here amongst us secular conservatives Medio , it goes something like this :

"Dem Religious sure are fussy about what they put in their mouths... but the filth sure spouts out of their mouths never the less"

Now care to explain why you called me a "skinhead" out of the blue ? Is it because you cannot call me "leftist" anymore ?
Or is it because I am secular.... or because I am a conservative .... ????

[Ophra]

LOL!

What's the matter Minus ?... Not used to your victims fighting back ???
I'm not some American kid you bullied in the schoolyard Minus.... I'm an Israeli !!!

[Ophra]

LOL! You are a trip. I'm shivering in my shorts. Put your kid on a plane and bring it!

How about you stop " shivering " Minus and get your long pants on and come on over here ... it would do you the world of good to see how we live ... a couple of years in the Army would turn you into a man .
FYI my " kid " has been defending this country since he was 17 years old ... a little Russian/American on-line bully boy is a piece of cake for him .

[Mediocrates]

We have a saying over here amongst us secular conservatives Medio , it goes something like this :

"Dem Religious sure are fussy about what they put in their mouths... but the filth sure spouts out of their mouths never the less"

Now care to explain why you called me a "skinhead" out of the blue ? Is it because you cannot call me "leftist" anymore ?
Or is it because I am secular.... or because I am a conservative .... ????


Because you are a skinhead or the closest thing to it. You're a right wing nationalist ideologue who openly hates Jews and people of eastern European ancestry. In my book that's a skinhead. Just because you speak Hebrew doesn't make any difference.

[Mediocrates]

Can I get a midnight rally with that one? Torches and flags and nationalist speeches too? Too bad I'd probably get my Jew head shot off by the likes of you.

[Ophra]

Because you are a skinhead or the closest thing to it. You're a right wing nationalist ideologue who openly hates Jews and people of eastern European ancestry. In my book that's a skinhead. Just because you speak Hebrew doesn't make any difference.

What a load of utter rubbish Medio ... how many times do I have to say on here ??? I am a central-moderate that leans to the right . Shinui is not right wing :rolleyes:
How can I hate Jews you stupid man ... I'm Jewish my kids are Jewish .. our family can trace our roots right the way back to kingdom come you knucklehead !!
I don't hate anyone of "eastern European ancestry" .. I've told you that already ... I don't even hate all Arabs like so many of you do on here .
What I fight against is those that break our Laws .... like extremists , whether they be Religious or not .... and like KW who is a far-right criminal...and like Minus who threatens grandmothers with physical violence because he is too ignorant to understand what secular means !!!!!!

[Ophra]

Can I get a midnight rally with that one? Torches and flags and nationalist speeches too? Too bad I'd probably get my Jew head shot off by the likes of you.

You have been living too long in the deep south Medio.... come to Israel please... visit us once at least. See what it is that you are so scared off .

[Mediocrates]

You have been living too long in the deep south Medio.... come to Israel please... visit us once at least. See what it is that you are so scared off .


I wouldn't come to your forsaken rock pile on a bet. The hell with you and all of yours.

[Mediocrates]

And while we're on the subject, should you ever decide to debase yourself by coming here, feel free to visit to consider any of those other non Israeli places like Myanmar or Gabon.

[Binyamin]

The discussion about leftists is starting to sound exactly like a discussion about true Islam and Jihad. It does not make any difference to us if "true Islam" is for or against suicide bombings, a world-wide exclusively arabic Ummah or honor killings. These questions may be of interest to theologians, but all that we care about is what we see in practice, even if it is not the "true" Islam.
Now we are having the same issue with our Lefties, who are suddenly embarrassed to associate with the Left. But abstract sociological definitions and unsupported differentiations do not interest us. The Israeli left is a clearly identifiable ideology, and its ideas are not open for debate.




Its funny how Ophra says she's a centrist, because Baruch Marzel also says that he's a centrist. Come to think of it, I actually see alot in common over there. :D

[Ophra]

The discussion about leftists is starting to sound exactly like a discussion about true Islam and Jihad. It does not make any difference to us if "true Islam" is for or against suicide bombings, a world-wide exclusively arabic Ummah or honor killings. These questions may be of interest to theologians, but all that we care about is what we see in practice, even if it is not the "true" Islam.
Now we are having the same issue with our Lefties, who are suddenly embarrassed to associate with the Left. But abstract sociological definitions and unsupported differentiations do not interest us. The Israeli left is a clearly identifiable ideology, and its ideas are not open for debate.




Its funny how Ophra says she's a centrist, because Baruch Marzel also says that he's a centrist. Come to think of it, I actually see alot in common over there. :D

All the bully boys getting a get together ...eh Binyamin ??
LMAO ... you are comparing me to Baruch Marzel .... he is an extreme far-right religious racist hater... a Khanist no less :rolleyes:
I am NOT embarrassed to associate with the Left in the least Binyamin... I used to be a Leftist most of my days ... I changed when Religious Zionism turned against us .
I was there the night they shot Rabin in the back ... with all my family around me .... with all the thousands and thousands of Leftists around me .
When I saw the settlers celebrating and I heard about the Orthodox in Brooklyn cheering ... that's when I became a hardliner Binyamin. I swore then that I would fight Religious Zionism until my dying day . I'm not alone in this...that is why Shinui has risen to where it is today and will continue to rise. That is partly why disengagement Binyamin.
You reap what you sow ..... and Religious Zionism is it's own worst enemy .

[pelsar]

I wouldn't come to your forsaken rock pile on a bet. The hell with you and all of yours.

agreed you stay far away from us...and you can think of us as the falklands or whatever....this place isnt for everyone

[pelsar]

Now we are having the same issue with our Lefties, who are suddenly embarrassed to associate with the Left. But abstract sociological definitions and unsupported differentiations do not interest us. The Israeli left is a clearly identifiable ideology, and its ideas are not open for debate.

weird thinking....ideas are not open for debate....hmmm sounds like a cult member to me.....so which rabbi do you belong to?

[determinism]

Ophra, pelsar,

it is great to see such rational people as you here! It is a damn shame that the media usually focuses on radical elements or religious nuts when reporting about israel. Shalom to both of you!

[redcake]

Hey Ophra, Hanan Ashwari wants her persona back. Go sing your peace songs. You could care less about Rabin, you're just pissed someone ruined the era of good Israeli sing-alongs.

Pelsar - Learn how to form a factual rebutal. You're breaking the IDF code of conduct every time you respond. By the way, Ophra's the one who tells us her viewpoints represent mainstream middle Israel...and to us, her views are very extreme.... so you two should kiss...or take a class at The Learning Annex...or something. Whatever you do - come back with facts, or don't bother.

[pelsar]

.
Pelsar - Learn how to form a factual rebutal. You're breaking the IDF code of conduct every time you respond.

....its pretty obvious for those of us who have actually been in the IDF, that we know a bit more about it then those who havent....and you havent....

its pretty impossible to form an intelligent rebuttle when the original post is full of BS

[Mediocrates]

agreed you stay far away from us...and you can think of us as the falklands or whatever....this place isnt for everyone

Can I have my share of the $2 billion dollars you're getting from me to relocate bases from Gaza?

[redcake]

I'll repeat it:

Menachim Begin presented the first plan offering Palestinian Autonomy in 1978, with a prerequisite barring the PLO participation. The Labor Party pushed the autonomy plan through ..... with the PLO. There was an approval rating at the time which peaked in the 70% range.

Now form a rebutal or stop wasting our time. "That's BS" is not a rebutal. Self interest? Appeasement? Same thing.

keep in mind your Rabin era IDF code of conduct when you answer.... specifically: Discipline, Personal Example, Responsibility, and CREDEBILITY.
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=32

[pelsar]

I'll repeat it:

Menachim Begin presented the first plan offering Palestinian Autonomy in 1978, with a prerequisite barring the PLO participation. The Labor Party pushed the autonomy plan through ..... with the PLO. There was an approval rating at the time which peaked in the 70% range.

Now form a rebutal or stop wasting our time. "That's BS" is not a rebutal. Self interest? Appeasement? Same thing.

keep in mind your Rabin era IDF code of conduct when you answer.... specifically: Discipline, Personal Example, Responsibility, and CREDEBILITY.
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=32

do you mean this:


They will act in such a manner that their peers and commanders can rely upon them in performing their tasks.

would you like an affidavit from the men I have served with and continue to serve with?....you can choose political views, officers from the right or from the left..i have served with both...if you dont like officers i've got quite a few non-coms who will go with me anywhere..

we call that credability...when fellow soldiers will go with you, will choose you to be with them etc....when they trust you that much....when you get 10 phone calls from different guys making sure that your coming to reserves....

____________________________

what kind of rebuttle are you talking about...the govt of israel made a political decision....they make lots of them, some more to the right some to the left...politics being politics much get muddled with pieces of both. What started with begin got modified..so? I'm not sure what your point is.....

and i do have one thing to say on a more personal level....its not meant to be mean or vindictive.....being in an army in a combat unit is very different from not being in one...the "paper descriptions" dont really mean a whole lot to us in the field.....and its painfully obvious when one has never been because the "language is different"...its something that you cant fake.....i'm respectfully asking you to "not go there". Though i mentioned my service as a form of credibility and something i am very proud of, questioning my credability or competence to serve is not really something I'm going to go into with someone who has never been......

[pelsar]

Can I have my share of the $2 billion dollars you're getting from me to relocate bases from Gaza?

you dont like it?..vote out your congressman....start a protest...its your govt thats doing the giving....

[redcake]

I'm not sure what your point is.....

Then stop arguing just to argue. I made a very specific point.

I've practically begged you to respond FACTUALLY rather some stoner answer like "hey man, you're full of it, hey man you're wrong, hey man it's just politics".

Cut out the anecdotal information and back up your statements with factual information.

[pelsar]

Then stop arguing just to argue. I made a very specific point.

I've practically begged you to respond FACTUALLY rather some stoner answer like "hey man, you're full of it, hey man you're wrong, hey man it's just politics".

Cut out the anecdotal information and back up your statements with factual information.

I'm serious I've forgotten the point...its been a while in terms of posts...humor me....

[NewsGuy]

The discussion about leftists is starting to sound exactly like a discussion about true Islam and Jihad. It does not make any difference to us if "true Islam" is for or against suicide bombings, a world-wide exclusively arabic Ummah or honor killings. These questions may be of interest to theologians, but all that we care about is what we see in practice, even if it is not the "true" Islam.
Now we are having the same issue with our Lefties, who are suddenly embarrassed to associate with the Left. But abstract sociological definitions and unsupported differentiations do not interest us. The Israeli left is a clearly identifiable ideology, and its ideas are not open for debate.


Well said.

We judge the Left (and the Right, for that matter) by what their members do. It's fair to say that outside Israel we have a different view than those inside, but we form our opinions based on the Israeli press.

Besides reading the 3 main Israeli papers online, I also read the reader comments as time permits. I see that nearly every political story attracts a Left-Right debate, and it is exactly like the one here.

Pelsar, I don't think that what we write here is off base at all, although you are correct to say that there are different degrees of political positions.

Those who are the movers and shakers of the Left, however, are the more extreme ones.

It doesn't mean that the majority of the Leftists are not more moderate than Uri Avnery, Abu Sarid and Abu Beilin, etc., but that is who runs the show, as it seems.

[minusthejihad]

What a load of utter rubbish Medio ... how many times do I have to say on here ??? I am a central-moderate that leans to the right . Shinui is not right wing :rolleyes:
How can I hate Jews you stupid man ... I'm Jewish my kids are Jewish .. our family can trace our roots right the way back to kingdom come you knucklehead !!
I don't hate anyone of "eastern European ancestry" .. I've told you that already ... I don't even hate all Arabs like so many of you do on here .
What I fight against is those that break our Laws .... like extremists , whether they be Religious or not .... and like KW who is a far-right criminal...and like Minus who threatens grandmothers with physical violence because he is too ignorant to understand what secular means !!!!!!

I'm secular myself you fool.

[Mediocrates]

you dont like it?..vote out your congressman....start a protest...its your govt thats doing the giving....


And you have your hand out. Me? I don't care you bite the hand that feeds you, but don't make it some kind of f***g virtue.

[minusthejihad]

Ophra, pelsar,

it is great to see such rational people as you here! It is a damn shame that the media usually focuses on radical elements or religious nuts when reporting about israel. Shalom to both of you!

This is kind of like David Duke and Al Sharpton siding with Mother Sheehan in their mutual dislike of Bush. Oh the Irony!

[determinism]

enlighten me...where is the irony? ;)

[minusthejihad]

enlighten me...where is the irony? ;)

I'd rather not. My comment wasn't intended for you or David Duke.

[determinism]

a) truth remains truth irrespective of who believes in it.

b) so i am a KKK memeber now? interesting.

[Ophra]

I'm secular myself you fool.

:D .. youre not secular Minus ... you are about to marry a non-Jew ... youre assimilated is what you are .

[minusthejihad]

:D .. youre not secular Minus ... you are about to marry a non-Jew ... youre assimilated is what you are .

Go to the side of your kibbutz in the West Bank and yell at other Jews about leaving Arab lands you pompous cow.

[pelsar]

a) truth remains truth irrespective of who believes in it.

b) so i am a KKK memeber now? interesting.

welcome to the world of the outer dimension...where normal and moderate is considered extreme...

[Ophra]

Hey Ophra, Hanan Ashwari wants her persona back. Go sing your peace songs. You could care less about Rabin, you're just pissed someone ruined the era of good Israeli sing-alongs.

Pelsar - Learn how to form a factual rebutal. You're breaking the IDF code of conduct every time you respond. By the way, Ophra's the one who tells us her viewpoints represent mainstream middle Israel...and to us, her views are very extreme.... so you two should kiss...or take a class at The Learning Annex...or something. Whatever you do - come back with facts, or don't bother.

Nope redcake ... wrong again ... as you are over and over, again and again.... I loved Rabin ... I admired and respected him ... I served under his command ... as did my father myself and my brother ... we would have followed him into hell and back . My brother did .. and never came back.
Your precious Jerusalem you owe to Rabin and men like my brother who never grew up to see his hero shot in the back by the likes of you ... Barouch Hashem !!!

[Mira]

I think the conversations in this thread and all the ones like it flooding this board are pretty damn worthless. There may have been some utility in discussing the spectrum of Israeli oppinion for a while, but the majority of this is just pigeonholing people and spewing out self-righteous invective. What is it that you guys think that you are accomplishing here? If Jews have the luxury of wasting so much time with all this petty bick