Abbas thanks Israeli Left

[sharonbn]

The Gaza Strip withdrawal was a historic precedent, with the Palestinians striving to remove the Israeli occupation and settlements from all their land, and chiefly Jerusalem, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Tuesday evening.

Speaking in Gaza, in a speech broadcast on Palestinian television , Abbas chose to thank the Israeli Left, among other elements, for helping to bring about the disengagement.

I thank all our people and everyone who assisted us, including Israeli peace forces, allied countries, Arab countries…I thank the martyrs, headed by the greatest martyr, Yasser Arafat,” Abbas said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141710,00.html

[sharonbn]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

[SteveK]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.


And, I say God forbid.

[MGB8]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

You've just been put on equal footing with "martyrs," including the (somehow) Martyr, Arafat, and you say you're welcome, on to the WB...?

making an unhappy face... <does this offend your sensibilities less?

[minusthejihad]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

Wow! I wish I could be thanked by such a righteous man like Abbas. What an honor!!!

It's too bad Abu Nidal or Yassin are dead, I'm sure they would love to kiss your babies.

[Mira]

Gosh I don't know what to say. It's just so pathetic. :(

[Mediocrates]

What are you people, on dope? (http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/fasttimesmrhand.jpg)




there that should fix it

[minusthejihad]

now on to the west bank.

Spoken like a true Hamas recruiter. Oh wow, I'm sorry, I didn;t notice you were an Israeli, sorry.

[sharonbn]

you can all bitch as much as you want.
you all know that its going to happen.
Israel will withdraw from the west bank.
its the only logical conclusion from the gaza pullout.
its only a matter of time.

[Mediocrates]

All of it? E Jerusalem too?, Golan too? I still don't understand why you maintain that any of Jerusalem is yours other than some silly legal unilateral fiction that you made it so. I think you should retreat to the pre 67 lines in their entirety.

[MGB8]

No... under Sharon's logic, Israel clearly is occupying all lands outside of the R.181 mandate, and therefor should give up Jerusalem to "international administration" and move to the mandate borders. Oh, and accept an ulimited right of return.

Meanwhile, Israel should learn to be good little calves to the slaughter, like the Jews of yester-year.

[Ariksan]

Maybe we should disengage from sharonbn.

[sharonbn]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

[Ariksan]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

I think someone whos actions proof that they don't care about the fate of Israel
someone who activly works for the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoids laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "give them everything they want and let them continue to kill us" and lets call it "peace" and call everyone that doesn't agree an extremist.
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

[sharonbn]

That wasn't adressed to you, Ariksan.
The person it was adressed to - knows it.

[Ophra]

The below is what will happen ... this I know because Sharon is of us and for us .... it is our land after all is said and done ... ours to do with what we think is best ......... for us.


What’s in Sharon’s heart?

Prime minister to set Israel’s eastern border
Yoram Kaniuk

Netanyahu is from a different ilk.

He’s an American, accepted American citizenship, swore to protect the American flag and then came back to become the prime minister of Israel.

Sharon came from the land, from Mapai (the Labor Party’s predecessor,) and from the intense heat of the country.

The country’s first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, knew well the sins of Israel’s legendary Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, and of Sharon
after him, but he also loved those lone warriors, with their tragic worldview, and believed the brave are allowed to be wrong.

Later, aided by the Christians in Lebanon, Sharon thought he could transfer the Palestinians to Jordan, and got tangled up. Behind his back, whether he knew it or not, the massacre in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps was always lurking.

Today, Sharon is the rock he was born to be. The withdrawal from Gaza is one of the most courageous moves an Israeli leader ever dared make. All the prime ministers before him could have dismantled settlements, and after Baruch Goldstein (who massacred Arabs in a Hebron mosque), could have removed the Jewish presence from Hebron as well, but they did not.

I fought alongside three sons of Kfar Malal, Sharon’s place of birth, and I know them to be hard to break. They are not of weak character like Benjamin from America.

Sharon founded the Likud party, but he is not of their flesh. He now needs to keep telling all those who became ministers and Knesset members and job holders, that if they want to let Netanyahu win, they must sacrifice themselves.

It is hard to believe that city mayors and MKs will give up a year and a half of the pleasantries of ruling.

Sharon will continue on the path to a new Israel. Despite the settlers’ fury, he will pull out from the settlements that late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin had named “political,” annex the large settlement blocs, and then for the first time in its existence, Israel will have an eastern border.

The world may be angry, but will accept it, and Israel will say: Take all the rest. We will no longer be there as occupiers with roadblocks, breaking bones, and the Palestinians will have a state in Gaza and 95 percent of the West Bank.

The Japanese author Mishima wrote that to love an apple, one must love the apple’s core. In order to touch its core, the apple must be cut. We know all of Sharon’s mistakes, his courage and stubbornness, his triumphs and sins as a soldier and a commander, his winding path stemming directly from what’s in his heart.

He has cut the apple and in a little while he will be able to love it, with wisdom that is now rearing its head, as well as with his mother’s tenderness – but also her ax.

Yoram Kaniuk is one of Israel’s most well-renowned authors

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141737,00.html

[Mediocrates]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:


Well?

[sharonbn]

BINGO!
like I said... the right person knows it was addressed to him...
wow wait a second there... he expects an answer???
hmm... let me check me schedule .... :p :p :p

[Mediocrates]

Ok so you hate me and I hate you.

Well?

[sharonbn]

Like I said, you forfeit the right to ask me questions when you did not answer mine several times.
that's me, narrow and vindictive, a typical leftie :D :D :D

[Mediocrates]

nah just a blockhead repeating blockhead things.

[Cato]

The Gaza Strip withdrawal was a historic precedent, with the Palestinians striving to remove the Israeli occupation and settlements from all their land, and chiefly Jerusalem, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Tuesday evening.

Speaking in Gaza, in a speech broadcast on Palestinian television , Abbas chose to thank the Israeli Left, among other elements, for helping to bring about the disengagement.

I thank all our people and everyone who assisted us, including Israeli peace forces, allied countries, Arab countries…I thank the martyrs, headed by the greatest martyr, Yasser Arafat,” Abbas said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141710,00.html

I say you are certainly not welcome, never thank me again untill you stop venerating the anti-semite Yassir Arafat, Terrorist Scoundrel, and Arab Bigots who legalize wife beating like King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

I also say what were you smoking sharonbn, never accept a thank you from a man that thanks Yassir Arafat for his life long jew killing job, and accuses Israel of killing Arafat.

[machalist]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank...and then onto Jerusalem, then onto Haifa, Tel Aviv, Eilat etc..etc... Yes why don't you echo more most of their REAL intentions :rolleyes:

[minusthejihad]

I think someone whos actions proof that they don't care about the fate of Israel
someone who activly works for the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoids laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "give them everything they want and let them continue to kill us" and lets call it "peace" and call everyone that doesn't agree an extremist.
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

Ouch!

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=157976&postcount=2

[Ephraim]

Well, now that the handwriting is on the wall.....Gaza first, West Bank second, Jerusalem third, Israel fourth; where do you all think the Jews will move after they are forced out of Israel?

Clearly the Israeli left must have some place in mind. New York? Nah, too crowded.... Florida? the first choice up until the latest hurricanes hit. California is nice, but it will be a Mexican state in a few years, thanks to your cousins in the States. Nevada? similar to Israel but too close to California; and too many rednecks with guns.

Europe? That is a good idea...as clearly Europe has changed their evil ways.

That's a great idea. Move back to Europe. There is lots of empty space in western Poland and Russia.

Ah, I just read that Egypt is not doing anything about the Pals bringing arms into Gaza.

Better hurry Israelis....real estate in Poland is about to go up.

Never again? Nah, devu vu all over again..

:rolleyes:

[Ophra]

Well, now that the handwriting is on the wall.....Gaza first, West Bank second, Jerusalem third, Israel fourth; where do you all think the Jews will move after they are forced out of Israel?

Clearly the Israeli left must have some place in mind. New York? Nah, too crowded.... Florida? the first choice up until the latest hurricanes hit. California is nice, but it will be a Mexican state in a few years, thanks to your cousins in the States. Nevada? similar to Israel but too close to California; and too many rednecks with guns.

Europe? That is a good idea...as clearly Europe has changed their evil ways.

That's a great idea. Move back to Europe. There is lots of empty space in western Poland and Russia.

Ah, I just read that Egypt is not doing anything about the Pals bringing arms into Gaza.

Better hurry Israelis....real estate in Poland is about to go up.

Never again? Nah, devu vu all over again..

:rolleyes:

Another pessimist :rolleyes:

We aint going anywhere ..........when are you coming over to join our Army and help keep back the hordes Ephraim ??? :D

[Leon]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

and then after Tel Aviv -- Abbas did say that the Palestinians will "fish along the entire coast of Palestine."

Well done on a good job - what a nice little Jewish dhimmi you are.

[Leon]

No... under Sharon's logic, Israel clearly is occupying all lands outside of the R.181 mandate, and therefor should give up Jerusalem to "international administration" and move to the mandate borders. Oh, and accept an ulimited right of return.

Meanwhile, Israel should learn to be good little calves to the slaughter, like the Jews of yester-year.

MG, whats dah matter? Not only ago you were arguing in favor of Sharon's plan for Gaza...so whats wrong with this?

[Ephraim]

Another pessimist :rolleyes:

We aint going anywhere ..........when are you coming over to join our Army and help keep back the hordes Ephraim ??? :D


If I knew Israel was fighting a total war against their enemies, I might just come over. If it is another....attack that city, die, and then give the city back in 3 months. No thanks. How many men have died over the Sinai? Back and forth, back and forth. No gracias.


As I am on the wrong side of 40 I would have to act in a support role. How about a 3OOmag with a nice Leupold 10x and no rules of engagement??

:D

[MGB8]

MG, whats dah matter? Not only ago you were arguing in favor of Sharon's plan for Gaza...so whats wrong with this?

Leon,

Please do not misunderstand. I approve of the disengagement as a tactical move - a move not made because there is a Pal Arab peace partner, but because THERE IS NO SUCH PEACE PARTNER. A tactical change of line positions to destroy the "demographic weapon" while keeping as much land as necessary and being in a position to crush the enemy WHEN they attack, because they will.

If they surprise me and want peace, realistic compromise, and are actually willing to make real compromises (ie. Israeli security presence as part of the border controls, no right of return, land swaps, etc.) then, hey, great, compromise. If not, its best for Israel to be in tactically the best position to win the coming big war.


ps - apologize for the edit above; I didn't change anything, just hit the wrong button.

[Mediocrates]

Well in either case, the peace camp has to decide who their friends and representatives are and how much of this 'peace' they can stand to be associated with. As history tells us, there are Quislings who make out very well under the new overlords and there are revoutionary traitors who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. On the one hand they can push and push and push for further weakening of Israel and hope that if Israel fails and their new Arab masters look kindly on their treason, or they can hope for a strong Israel and hope there is no backlash against them.

[redcake]

Is this the same Abbas who wants to include Hamas in a future government?

Is this the same Abbas who is allowing towns to be renamed after genocidal leaders?

Is that really the company you want to keep, Sharonb?

[Ophra]

Well in either case, the peace camp has to decide who their friends and representatives are and how much of this 'peace' they can stand to be associated with. As history tells us, there are Quislings who make out very well under the new overlords and there are revoutionary traitors who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. On the one hand they can push and push and push for further weakening of Israel and hope that if Israel fails and their new Arab masters look kindly on their treason, or they can hope for a strong Israel and hope there is no backlash against them.

:) .... did you listen to Sharon's speech at the UN ? ;) ... He's Da Man .

[sharonbn]

he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

[SteveK]

Quote: sharonbn: he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

Isaiah (30:1-2):

Woe, O wayward sons --- the word of HASHEM --- who take counsel, but not from Me, and who accept a ruler, but not of My spirit, in order to add sin upon sin; who are going to descend to Egypt but did not inquire of My mouth, to seek strength in Pharaoh's stronghold and to take shelter in Egypt's shade. Pharaoh's stronghold will be a shame for you and the shelter in Egypt's shade will be a humiliation!"

[minusthejihad]

he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

Yup, cuz we all know that speeches at the UN have as much importance as Senate Confirmation Hearings!!

/Can I get a whoop whoop!!

[Reffo]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.I can very well understand your desire and yearning for peace. I can also understand your willingness to sacrifice much and compromise for the sake of peace. I too think that for the sake of Real Peace, Israel should be prepared to compromise a great deal. However, don't you think that there should be limits to the risks that Israel should take, even for the sake of peace? My question to you Sharonbn is: At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?

[Ophra]

I can very well understand your desire and yearning for peace. I can also understand your willingness to sacrifice much and compromise for the sake of peace. I too think that for the sake of Real Peace, Israel should be prepared to compromise a great deal. However, don't you think that there should be limits to the risks that Israel should take, even for the sake of peace? My question to you Sharonbn is: At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?

Reffo ..... trust Ariel Sharon .. I do . He has only the best interests of Israel at heart. Nothing else . He is not Bibi ;)

Look:
"" In his address to the United Nations, Sharon said, "The fact that the Jewish nation has a right to the Land of Israel does not mean that we are ignoring the Palestinians’ rights. They will always be our neighbors. We respect them and we have no desire to rule over them. They too are entitled to liberty and sovereign national existence in their country.” ""

In answer to your question :
Gaza is a test case.
Negotiations on Palestinian statehood in Gaza and the West Bank based on a U.S.-backed “Road map” Peace plan has been ruled out by Israel until Palestinians disarm militants opposed to peacemaking..
It's up to them now . If "they" want a State then "they" control "their" extremists. If they don't or they can't ........... then we will .

[sharonbn]

At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?
Israel should continue the unilateral withdrawal from occupied territories. The west bank is basically the same situation as GZ - small Israeli colonies perched right in the middle of large hostile Pal indeginous population. It is impossible to defend these colonies. Thus, the withdrawal serves to strenghthen Israeli security (as well as the right thing to do, but that is just a side effect.)

and that is it. no more is needed nor required from Israel.

[Reffo]

Ophra
I agree with you.

Sharonbn
So, are you proposing to withdraw all the way back to the pre 1967 borders? Including Jerusalem? If so, at what point do you expect some meaningful counter gestures from the Palestinians? And what would these be?

[sharonbn]

I am proposing a withdrawal to *near* 67 borders, with major settlements blocks annexed to Israel.
Kinda like the Geneva accord, which, for instance, in Jerusalem, kept Maale Edomim and Givat Zeev in Israel
http://www.geneva-accord.org/TemplateControls/GalleryPopup.aspx?docid=443
This, I believe, will also be accpeted by Pals.

I expect the Pals to stop terrorism. Until now, Mahmud Abbas has shown he has the will to do just that.

[Reffo]

I am proposing a withdrawal to *near* 67 borders, with major settlements blocks annexed to Israel.For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders. Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments, the terrorist attacks did not stop, he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air). And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper. Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed. At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?

[Ophra]

For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders. Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments, the terrorist attacks did not stop, he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air). And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper. Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed. At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?

Aha!! .... and this is where I agree with you Reffo. I would like to see Abbas grow a pair of balls like Arik..... stand up to his own extremists and stop being such a wussy !!

[Mediocrates]

No can explain or agree on what 'real peace' is. 'Real peace' is like saying you live in a city with no crime. I have to side with Abbas on this one. If Israel is unwilling or unable to articulate what their success criteria are, there's no reason for the PLO to try to comply.

[MGB8]

What worries me about Sharonbn is not the end result, it is the logic used in getting there. By following his logic, you can very easily conclude that all of Israel is just a colony put into a hostile Arab population. It seems that Sharonbn has completely, or nearly completely, accepted the Arab narrative (good ol' liberal schooling)... but somehow doesn't come to the logical conclusion of the Arab narrative - that Israel is a historic mistake and injustice that must be removed.

I don't think Sharonbn's position and conclusion is ultimately tennable, as, from his logical foundation, every Arab demand is more or lest justified, and any Israeli opposition an injustice (even if a necessary one.)

This is not like Arik Sharon. The idea that the Pal Arabs have claims and rights DOES NOT MEAN that the Jews are just "colonialists" - ie. have no legitimate claims or rights. On the contrary, this is a situation with competing claims and rights, which must be resolved to the best benefit of both parties (but likely will be resolved by a big war, knowing the Pal Arabs, and not to their benefit).

In the mental war, the war of wills, Sharonbn has already been defeated. He, individually, has lost, and so he plays the hand of the loser, begging for peace. Ophra, and SteveK and Toga and the rest of the Israelis on this board, for all their disagreements, for the most part have not so been defeated.

[Reffo]

Medio

I have already posted these criteria for peace on another thread:

Success Criteria

When both sides ‘get out of blame mode’ and give credit to each others concessions
When both sides prevent any public incitement and create a more positive atmosphere
When both sides acknowledge their own historical wrong doings and not just harp on what the other has done wrong
When the Palestinians allow their own dissenters to speak up without having to fear violence or death. Even if they are as extreme as Chomsky is against Israel (their mirror image being extreme against the current Palestinian politics)
When the Palestinians outlaw, disarm and imprison their extremists and do everything possible to prevent violent attacks (not just half heartedly)

[Mediocrates]

ha ha ha ha

[Reffo]

Yea, I know what you mean, not very realistic is it? It's more realistic to expect hate, terrorism, lies, breaking of committments, propaganda and incitement from them.

[Mediocrates]

I was trying to be more narrow. What does anyone think a workable definition of 'peace' is. In other words let's start with what people are willing to accept and then figure out how to work toward that. Is one attack a month acceptable? Two? Zero? What is the permissible scope of attacks? For example should Israel respond if it's bus that's blown up versus an El Al jet? Can Palestinians implore the UN to declare that Jews breathing Palestinian air is a warcrime? And so on. I don't think anyone but the Kool Aid suckers actually believe that Israel and the Palestinians can have anything of any practical import to do with one another, or if they say they do believe it they're simply being disingenuous. On the other hand it's critical to understand what events and what escalations will trigger any given response moving forward. Perfect peace is impossible, even a deeply flawed peace with periodic atrocities is not completely workable. What they have to come to terms with is how much or little of that they each can live with.

[redcake]

The current strategy seems to be giving a delicate toy to a bully, and then saying "see what he did!" when it's inevitably broken.

So was Sharon mistaken, or outright fibbing when he said:

"The fate of Netzarim is the fate of Negba, and Tel Aviv"... "such an evacuation would encourage terrorismand bring pressure on us." - April 23, 2002, to Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

Or the Likud platform which said:

"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

What has progressed to change Sharon's mind since 2002 ?

[sharonbn]

For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders.
Fine, so we agree that Israel should withdraw from 95% of WB. The only disagreement is how and when.

Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments,
That is open to personal opinion. I happen to beileve that he knows what needs to take place in order for independant Palestine to be founded, and terror cells and gangs aren't gonna make it happen. He also knows his limitations. He knows he does not have enough power to arrest and stop Hamas IJ et al. So he manouvers between signing agreements with the terror organizations and fighting them openly in the streets.

I think he's clever and has the correct agenda. Time will tell what will become of him and the Pals.

the terrorist attacks did not stop
huh? come again?
Maybe you have forgotten what it was like here during 2001 and 2002.
Terror attacks will never stop 100%, just like int'l terrorism will never stop.
But to paint a picture as if the situation did not **dramatically** change in the last year is just distortion. Abbas has at least some if not a lot of credit for that change.

he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air).
I already answered that. To ask Abbas to disarm the terrorists is like asking him to commit political suicide (and perhaps not just political one) He has to manouver within his capabilities to achieve his goals, one of which being to maintain quiet. Its his interest to maintain the quiet. His reign depends on that.

And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper.
and Israel did not renounce its claim to WB. lets leave something to negotiate about shall we?

Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed.
The Osle "collapse" as you called it was because both sides did not want to implement it. Nevertheless, the agreement was important building block in the peace process. You can't jump from total control to total withdrawal. IT is simply unfeasible. The process has to be gradual, so the public gets used to the idea of withdrawal. So the agreement was an absolute necessary at the time for all parties.

At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?
I did not say he already delivered what was expected of him. I said he has shown he WANTS to deliver and wants to be regarded a serious partner.
His deliverance will tale time and Israel should make an effort to help him.

As I said already - time will tell what Abbas' worth is. Based on the past and present, You seem to judge him as just another terrorist lord bent on the total destruction of Israel. I remain optimistic. No one knows for sure. But if you're right, then there is no hope for Israel. We cannot endure ongoing war of attrition for decades to come. We are too little for that. Israel's only hope is peace and established borders that are agreed by the Arabs.

[sharonbn]

What worries me about Sharonbn is not the end result, it is the logic used in getting there. By following his logic, you can very easily conclude that all of Israel is just a colony put into a hostile Arab population.
oh please this is really really getting tiring.
I've said it over and over ad nausia and you simply choose to ignore.

The Israeli left with all its plans and agreements and statements and philosophy has never ever ever ever e-v-e-r e-v-e-r e--v--e--r used the logic if WB settlements are an imperialistic colonies - so is Tel Aviv.
That "line" of logic is implied by the right wing, not the left wing.

Israel H-A-S borders. They are the 1949 armstice agreements. The corrections for the green line in the Geneva accord take into acount the 38 years that passed since 67. that's it.

There was never ever ever ever e-v-e-r e-v-e-r e--v--e--r any doubt in the Israeli left as to Israel's right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

I hope I said for the last time... but I know I didnt....

[MGB8]

You can say it all you want, but there is no logical difference between saying anything past the green lines is a colony and anything beyond the partition boundaries is a border. UN R. 242 does not set the green line, nor have I seen any "international law" which says that the green line is the border, and, frankly, reliance on International law (the acceptance of everyone else) is not a path you want to go down - what happens when the SC decides that the 181 boundaries are what are acceptable? And, in terms of the idea of what is a colonist, there is no logical difference between Jewish sovereignty, presence in ANY of Israel and in the WB and Gaza. None. Its just not a colony. A colony is an outpost of an already existant, distant state. There weren't German colonies in Poland, just Germanic towns. You have to take into the context of Israel's legitimate claims (via law of war) to the WB and Gaza.

[MGB8]

ps... what makes a WB colony "imperialistic" but not a town outside the R.181 borders? The Armistace lines? Did the Pal Arabs agree to them? Was there a peace treaty which recognized them? Weren't they, too, conquered in a war of self-defense?

What is the logical difference, Sharonbn? Because you have not brought one out.

Saying "the left has never said they are the same" doesn't say anything. The issue is, applying consistent intellectual definitions, why is one different than the other?

[Mediocrates]

I'd still like to understand the bona fides of saying part of Jerusalem, the non East Jerusalem part is Israel inviolate forever based solely on Israel's own unilateral annexation of it. That seems more a legal conceit than an explanation.

[MGB8]

Sharonbn relies on the international "acceptance" of the Green line... nothing more. But the Arabs certainly didn't accept these lines... and there is no SC resolution saying these are the borders, (and the SC is fickle and could change... I don't recall whether zoinism is racism was SC or GA...I think it was SC) and, frankly, its not the UN's role to be the arbitrer of what is a legitimate border and what is not - who gave the UN that authority?

[Mediocrates]

No no my point is simple. Before 1967 there was no Israeli presence in Jerusalem. None. Later on it was esplained to me Israel simply annexed Jerusalem and so therefore it's part of Israel forever. But other than simply erecting a legal convenience of annexation there is nothing there that is inherently different from all the other land they're willing to give up with seemingly rational excuses of 'it wasn't ours to begin with'. Ok so I understand it's just hypocrisy, but I'm just trying to get them to admit that.

[MGB8]

You are refering to the old city and East Jerusalem? W. Jerusalem was in Israeli hands post 48.

Maybe this little tidbit will job Sharonbn's understanding of the real issue, however... Chavez suggested moving the headquarters of the UN to a city "not part of the sovereignty of any state." And which individual city did he mention... drum role please... Jerusalem.

To rely on the good will (including "laws") of the gentiles and muslims for your security is to invite another Holocaust, nothing more. Good little sheep.

[frizzer1]

Aha!! .... and this is where I agree with you Reffo. I would like to see Abbas grow a pair of balls like Arik..... stand up to his own extremists and stop being such a wussy !!

Me too.
And then we can start the pool on how long he will live.
I fugure that he might survive a couple of months with a little luck.

[Reffo]

Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments,
That is open to personal opinion. I happen to beileve that he knows what needs to take place in order for independant Palestine to be founded, and terror cells and gangs aren't gonna make it happen. He also knows his limitations. He knows he does not have enough power to arrest and stop Hamas IJ et al. So he manouvers between signing agreements with the terror organizations and fighting them openly in the streets.

I think he's clever and has the correct agenda. Time will tell what will become of him and the Pals.You are right that time will tell, I actually hope that you are right but IMO the signs are not good. Even if he has his heart in the right place, I am not sure that he will succeed, but I am not yet convinced that he is not a wolf in a sheep's clothing and, again, I hope that I am wrong on that score.

the terrorist attacks did not stop
huh? come again?
Maybe you have forgotten what it was like here during 2001 and 2002.
Terror attacks will never stop 100%, just like int'l terrorism will never stop.
But to paint a picture as if the situation did not **dramatically** change in the last year is just distortion. Abbas has at least some if not a lot of credit for that change.Actually 2001 and 2002 is not a good comparison because Israel was still on it's back foot at that stage. A better comparison would be between say early 2004 and 2005. I think you are passing some of the credit due to the Israeli tactics in stopping terrorism in the latter part of the Intifada, to Abbas. The fact is, that these tactics started to bear fruit even before Abbas got elected. Remember that Arafat died in November 2004 and Abbas was elected in early 2005. The following URL lists MAJOR terrorist incidents since the commencement of the Oslo accord, so let's analyse what it tells us:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html

July 12, 2005 Netanya 5 killed, 70+ wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide bombing outside shopping mall.

February 25, 2005 Tel Aviv 5 killed, 50 wounded Islamic Jihad Bombing outside night club.

August 31, 2004 Beersheba 16 killed, 100 wounded Hamas Two suicide bombings on buses.

March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 killed, 16 wounded Hamas and Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Twin suicide bombings at port

February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, over 60 wounded Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Suicide bombing on bus

January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing on bus

It does show a marginal improvement but the year is not yet finished and of course it also ignores other attacks and the success of Israeli security forces in stopping major terrorist plots in 2005.

To ask Abbas to disarm the terrorists is like asking him to commit political suicide (and perhaps not just political one) He has to manouver within his capabilities to achieve his goals, one of which being to maintain quiet. Its his interest to maintain the quiet. His reign depends on that.You may or may not be right but look at it from a self interested point of view (Israel's): Tell me, what good is Abbas to Israel if he can only act as a lame duck leader who cannot establish the rule of law? In fact, I put it to you that unless he can demonstrate that he will be effective in stopping the terrorists, he will be more of a liability than an asset to Israel because he is more credible than the Hamasniks and the Jihadniks (As far as the rest of the world is concerned). Yet, it is a false credibility because he is ineffective in stopping the terrorism. And I don't necessarily expect 100% success rate either but a 100% effort should be expected. And more than that: Why does he not at least start to reduce the ill will and the incitement among the Palestinians? Why does he not express some positive gestures towards Israel's efforts? These are just some soft options that he could pursue a bit more vigorously, don't you think?

And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper.
and Israel did not renounce its claim to WB. lets leave something to negotiate about shall we?Sharonbn, you are probably a very nice human being. In fact, I would say that you and many like you are too nice for your own good. Tell me, do you really want to even raise the hopes of the Palestinians up with regards to their outrageous demands to allow the return of not only the refugees but their descendants as well? If not, then I would suggest to you that you and others like you would serve the Palestinian interests better as well if you joined other Israeli voices and make it clear that they cannot even entertain such notions.

The Osle "collapse" as you called it was because both sides did not want to implement it. Nevertheless, the agreement was important building block in the peace process. You can't jump from total control to total withdrawal. IT is simply unfeasible. The process has to be gradual, so the public gets used to the idea of withdrawal. So the agreement was an absolute necessary at the time for all parties.Huh? you lost me with this one! Are you saying that Barak's offer was not far reaching enough and that it should have been rejected by Arafat?

I did not say he already delivered what was expected of him. I said he has shown he WANTS to deliver and wants to be regarded a serious partner.
His deliverance will tale time and Israel should make an effort to help him.

As I said already - time will tell what Abbas' worth is. Based on the past and present, You seem to judge him as just another terrorist lord bent on the total destruction of Israel. I remain optimistic. No one knows for sure. But if you're right, then there is no hope for Israel. We cannot endure ongoing war of attrition for decades to come. We are too little for that. Israel's only hope is peace and established borders that are agreed by the Arabs.OK, but don't be in such a rush to accommodate him either. By all means, reward Abbas for effort and do a bit of give and take, don't rush just to give, because your efforts may not be appreciated and will probably be misconstrued. Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?

[pelsar]

Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?

but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externally

[Ophra]

Absolutely 100% on the button ...... completely agree with you pelsar.....and.... it's good to see you back :)

[SteveK]

but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externally


pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel. I always paid my taxes to the State of Israel and not any Rabbinic dynasty. When I voted, it was always at a government approved center and not just at any yeshiva.
When I made aliyah, I distinctly remember all the stamps bearing the logo and name of The State of Israel, and not the stamps bearing the logo and name of the issuing supervisor for a kashrut certificate.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:



http://www.arutz7.net/news.php?id=89940

Prime Minister Sharon Addresses United Nations

...

"Ariel Sharon told the United Nations that the Land of Israel is dear to him - but apparantly not as dear as keeping his family members out of prison," said MK Tzvi Hendel (National Union), evicted from his home in Ganei Tal as part of the Gaza withdrawal. "The entire Gaza withdrawal was aimed at having the criminal files of Sharon and his sons closed."

...

[Ophra]

pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel. I always paid my taxes to the State of Israel and not any Rabbinic dynasty. When I voted, it was always at a government approved center and not just at any yeshiva.
When I made aliyah, I distinctly remember all the stamps bearing the logo and name of The State of Israel, and not the stamps bearing the logo and name of the issuing supervisor for a kashrut certificate.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158386#post158386

[pelsar]

pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.

nothing but the hand of the state doing what govts are supposed to do...and citizens, both within the settlements and those in the security forces listening to what the political echelon ordered. We have shown ourselves the IRAN II we will not become...and for that i thank god.


oh btw your byline is cute....anymore conspiracy theories...I'll bet you got a million of em..

[KettleWhistle]

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

Right on! Which is really why Israel is only semi-Democratic, since in truly free and democratic countries the people own both the state and the government. In Israel, the government is, for the large part, a bunch of corrupt thugs who chose to ignore the majority of their people, and instead focuses on catering to the hostile alien minority.

There was a another thread on the subject of Israeli leftists--well, Abbas' "thank yous" make it quite obvious what these are--enemy collaborators.

[pelsar]

Right on! Which is really why Israel is only semi-Democratic, since in truly free and democratic countries the people own both the state and the government. In Israel, the government is, for the large part, a bunch of corrupt thugs who chose to ignore the majority of their people, and instead focuses on catering to the hostile alien minority.

There was a another thread on the subject of Israeli leftists--well, Abbas' "thank yous" make it quite obvious what these are--enemy collaborators.

yes I am a enemy collaborator!...i cant wait until the palestenains come and take over zichron yaacov and put my family in the proper concentration camp...i no doubt will be rewarded for my good deeds..and i cant wait until that happens...

i always get a "kick" out of being called a collaborator....
_____________________________________
as far as our govt goes...if it truly was democratic it would have
proportional representation from the different areas...

and in fact if your interested in such a movement it does exist today..you should look into it:

http://www.geocities.com/directrepisrael/EN/YourPart.html

of course with that kind of govt the settler industry would have collapsed years ago...so maybe you really dont want a true democracy.... do you

are you talking about that invisible majority that was against the gaza pullout that never materialized? that didnt march down to gaza in 100,000s?, that didnt leave the army...that majority?...seems to me during oslo, protests where quite strong and loud...for this...hardly even a whisper. I think the majority your talking about simply isnt around......or are they in hiding somewhere cause i sure cant see them.."come out come out where ever you are"

[KettleWhistle]

yes I am a enemy collaborator!...i cant wait until the palestenains come and take over zichron yaacov and put my family in the proper concentration camp...i no doubt will be rewarded for my good deeds..and i cant wait until that happens...

You know, there is a difference between supporting the enemy that colonized our homeland, and supporting a tactical decision. You, obviously, support the enemy. As you said, they are now free to teach, etc. Sharonbn is happy to be of help to the enemy as well. So what happened to loving and caring for your own?

are you talking about that invisible majority that was against the gaza pullout that never materialized? that didnt march down to gaza in 100,000s?, that didnt leave the army...that majority?...seems to me during oslo, protests where quite strong and loud...for this...hardly even a whisper. I think the majority your talking about simply isnt around......or are they in hiding somewhere cause i sure cant see them.."come out come out where ever you are"
Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that. But even when we did know that the majority of the population, including the vast majority of the core population (i.e. Jews) were opposing damaging actions of the government during the Oslo tragedy, nothing was done to bring the responsible parties to justice. It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

[SteveK]

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.

nothing but the hand of the state doing what govts are supposed to do...and citizens, both within the settlements and those in the security forces listening to what the political echelon ordered. We have shown ourselves the IRAN II we will not become...and for that i thank god.


oh btw your byline is cute....anymore conspiracy theories...I'll bet you got a million of em..


pelsar,

The byline at the end of my posts is a verse from Torah, the Prophet Malachi.
It translates: "I am HaShem, and I have not changed, and you, the Sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed".

That includes you and Ophra. You are Jews that have not been destroyed, but have lived to see the realization of Biblical prophecy for return to your Jewish Homeland. Only the Torah leadership can ensure that, and certainly not you and Ophra. That's fact. No conspiracy theory. In fact, if it hadn't been for these Torah leaders over 2,000 years, Jews wouldn't know that they are Jews and wouldn't have known their connection and right to this choice piece of Mediterranean real estate.

I hate to break it to you, but the Israeli public is the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul. The Torah leaders must bring themselves to be more united, prominent, and accepted at the national level and not just the yeshiva and community circle. I think that the desecration of God's name that you, Ophra, and your gang have committed will propel them into more serious and authoritative leadership roles here in Israel for a Torah Nation. You must remember the story of Moses and his opponent Korach. Korach and his followers were very much in the mentality of you, Ophra, and her gang. They also thought that they had the Israeli public's support and faith. Wrong. In the end, the Israeli public wants what Torah leadership gives.

But,Torah leadership must present themselves to the Israeli public. And, now its crucial that the Torah leaders present themselves to the public for what they are capable,--- National Torah leadership, and not just leading synagogues and yeshivas.

The Jewish Torah Nation from Mount Sinai was nothing about an Iranian theocracy. Talk about imaginative and perverted conspiracy theories. You atheists are full of them.

Torah leaders need to address the nation that a collective Jewish mind, heart,and soul can't be developed in the Israeli youth by ordering them to expell Jews from their God given Land.

[Ophra]

It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

Yo! ... here we go again.... KW's hero worship of Yigal Amir !!!!!!!

[KettleWhistle]

No worship here. Only a sincere show of respect to a man who helped make Israel a better place.

[Ophra]

In the end, the Israeli public wants what Torah leadership gives

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

[Ophra]

No worship here. Only a sincere show of respect to a man who helped make Israel a better place.

No worship KW !!... who are you kidding ??? You never shut up about him.... you even said you would name your son after him :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Your sig says it all.
Made Israel a better place ? :eek: ........ for the likes of you maybe ... not for those that till this day cannot believe how such a thing came to pass.

[SteveK]

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

HO HO HO!!! Ophra wants to convert the Jewish Nation to Christianity and have them believe in Santa Claus,--- the Santa Claus of appeasement and surrender to the goyim and her Arab despotic murderous masters, for giving us our Christmas wish of "peace".

"A normal country in a normal world." That means to Ophra and her gang telling the world that anything said up unitl now about the 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage and our God given Land is null and void. All previous statements as such made by David Ben-Gurion, and used as a claim ticket to her right and connection to the Land of Israel by Ophra's grandmother is now inoperative and null and void.

Ophra and her gang have conquered the Land by the sword and with the sword will keep it. This is the normalcy of what Ophra will represent now to the world about the Israeli Nation and its National identity. Billions of Christians and Muslims relate to Israel in a spiritual way from the time of Abraham that Ophra and her gang want stricken from the record. Ophra and her gang are the self-appointed "real" custodians of the "Holy Land".

Ophra and her gang are putting themselves in the wrong role for Israel:


EZEKIEL 32:1

... the world of HaShem came to me saying, Son of Man, take up a lament for Pharaoh, king of Egypt:

You imagined yourself a young lion among the nations, but you are like a serpent in the seas.

[pelsar]

stevek
i dont get too worked up over your "torah leadership"...since the number of variations/cults/sects must number of hundreds here:

be they haridi, religious zionist, sub sects following different rabbis, jews for jesus, jews following some dead scholor, etc all declaring that they KNOW whats right and JUST...leaving no room for those that disagree....we know what that looks like by taking a peak at Iran today or the taliban of a couple of years ago....

In israel today you have the choice of sect/cult to follow....in your dream govt such a thing wont exist....

aint gonna happen...us heathens who are happy to let you worship as you please, and will defend you from outside forces......are keeping our country, with all its imperfections..we are the jews and israelis of today not of yesterday

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.

[pelsar]

You know, there is a difference between supporting the enemy that colonized our homeland, and supporting a tactical decision. You, obviously, support the enemy. As you said, they are now free to teach, etc. Sharonbn is happy to be of help to the enemy as well. So what happened to loving and caring for your own?


Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that. But even when we did know that the majority of the population, including the vast majority of the core population (i.e. Jews) were opposing damaging actions of the government during the Oslo tragedy, nothing was done to bring the responsible parties to justice. It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

you live in a illusionary world....your "majority" is no where to be seen, where are the protests against sharon?....where? anywhere?.. ...no where..they dont exist

and if we're the enemy...well that sure would surprise some people i know who used to live in Neve Dekalim...because they sure dont think so....but then it must be frustrating to live in a country where you believe most of the population are traitors......

get some protests going....at least 100,000 people, then you will have a case..until then....you dont..just a belief which is in the minute minority

[SteveK]

stevek
i dont get too worked up over your "torah leadership"...since the number of variations/cults/sects must number of hundreds here:

be they haridi, religious zionist, sub sects following different rabbis, jews for jesus, jews following some dead scholor, etc all declaring that they KNOW whats right and JUST...leaving no room for those that disagree....we know what that looks like but taking a peak at Iran today or the taliban of a couople of years ago....

In israel today you have the choice of sect/cult to follow....in your dream such a thing wont exist....

aint gonna happen...us heathens who are happy to let you worship as you please, and will defend you from outside forces......are keeping our country, with all its imperfections..we are the jews and israelis of today not of yesterday

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.


pelsar,

If you look back at the origin of your Jewish heritage, it's nothing about the list of subversive poop that you listed. Torah leadership has kept alive the Jewish heritage for more than 2,000 years of exile, from generation to generation, through unspeakable persecutions. That's about real Torah leadership of real Jewish communities through 2,000 years of telling the world about our right and connection that gave the Jews their claim ticket to the Land of Israel. Even Chabad and Breslov are two Chassidic examples dating back already 2 centuries.

We Jews of today are here in Israel and can lay claim to it only because of the Jews of yesterday. And, our Jewish heritage is a heritage for all time.
The Torah is one Torah and one Law for the sovereign governance of Israel.

But, the start to a Torah Nation will come through a more united National Torah leadership. And, this is coming in the near future. The desecration of God's Name by you heathens, in the sight of the world, is ample motivation to bring together these Rabbis who have been more in the mindset of maintaining their own local communities. And, they will come together to speak to the Nation,- the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul.

Don't underestimate the potential of today's Torah leadership who has 2,000 years of accumulated experience in bringing the Jewish People to be the Jewish People.

[pelsar]

pelsar,
We Jews of today are here in Israel and can lay claim to it only because of the Jews of yesterday. And, our Jewish heritage is a heritage for all time..

and it will continue to be our heritage.....it shall continue to be a guide for our people....it just wont be used as the laws to govern our modern jewish state....

[KettleWhistle]

you live in a illusionary world....

Illusionary world? Let me repost what I said: "Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that."

"That" was reffering to where the majority stands on various issues.

[KettleWhistle]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

[pelsar]

Illusionary world? Let me repost what I said: "Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that."

"That" was reffering to where the majority stands on various issues.

whats all this 'democracy you keep talking about?....your not for a democracy....so why are complaining about the present system?

and besides we have a representative style of govt...that means we elect people to represent us and decide for us on the issues...if we dont like them, then we dont re-elect them.....thats how it works here. referendums are not necessary part of that proces..anyway its a mute point. It was and is clear that a small minority actually went to protest and they were mostly from a distinct population group

your "majority"....guess we'll see in a few years if sharon is re elected or if israel goes for labor...or...who represents your views?.....that "majority"?

which party is that?

[pelsar]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

Abbas is totally irrelvent here.....he plays no part in how and what happened.

[KettleWhistle]

Funny stuff. Really. It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin. And you forgot to mention that Israel doesn't have a representative democracy, and thus you don't vote for individual politicians, but for their (and their children's, friends', business partners', etc.) parties. Try to read that link you posted a few messages above, k?

[Ophra]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

I AM NOT A LEFTIST ..... AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

I also do NOT hate anyone.... but I am getting very close to hating you KW :mad:

Pssst ... Abbas doesn't know I exist ;)

[Ophra]

Funny stuff. Really. It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin. And you forgot to mention that Israel doesn't have a representative democracy, and thus you don't vote for individual politicians, but for their (and their children's, friends', business partners', etc.) parties. Try to read that link you posted a few messages above, k?

Nobody kicked Rabin out knucklhead .... he was murdered !!!!!
Only way you could get rid of him .

[SteveK]

and it will continue to be our heritage.....it shall continue to be a guide for our people....it just wont be used as the laws to govern our modern jewish state....

pelsar,

pelsar:

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.

I don't think that Lubaviticher Rebbe will call you, but The Living God of Israel has already spoken to the Jewish Nation for all times through His Torah and His prophets.

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

[pelsar]

Nobody kicked Rabin out knucklhead .... he was murdered !!!!!
Only way you could get rid of him .

Ophra...take it easy....like many on the extreme edge....illusions are part of life...his "majority" is probably his peer group which tends to cloud his understanding of his environment.

Reminds me of my "mem peh"....religious used to live in Neve Dekalim. He had a hard time understanding us non religious soldiers. One of our soldiers was an ex-haridi, ex religious zionist....and finally just a "heathen"...anyways Pini would explain to maor using talmudic passages and commentary to help explain to maor our "way of life". Maor unlike our "k" here was both interested in our way of life and respectful of it, as we are of his (he got tremendous support from us during and after the withdrawl....from all over the world). and most important "non illusional"

but that takes an open mind and a willing to understand and respect others

anyways...k complains about the "lack of democracy" but at the sametime commends the murder of the PM and in the end wants a dictatorship.....meaning his "complaints are simply hipocrasy at best...

[pelsar]

pelsar,
I don't think that Lubaviticher Rebbe will call you,

why not?...doesnt he have our new numbers?

[redcake]

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

If you stuck all the Rabbis in jail, and Israel was left to the secular-atheists do you truly believe anti-semitism would turn into rosey smiles, and the Palestinians would suddenly relinquish all claims to Israel, and all indoctrinated hatred for Jews ?

[KettleWhistle]

anyways...k complains about the "lack of democracy" but at the sametime commends the murder of the PM and in the end wants a dictatorship.....meaning his "complaints are simply hipocrasy at best...

It's really impossible to stop laughing at all this comedy you're spewing around around here. I'm neither religious, nor do I promote the idea of dictatorship. And to top it off for you, I was in support of the withdrawal.

So who's being hypocritical? :rolleyes:

[pelsar]

If you stuck all the Rabbis in jail, and Israel was left to the secular-atheists do you truly believe anti-semitism would turn into rosey smiles, and the Palestinians would suddenly relinquish all claims to Israel, and all indoctrinated hatred for Jews ?

you really dont get it do you?....its not about atheists or appeasing anti semites....its about jews living in israel in all their variations from non religious to reform to conservative to orthadox, to religious zionism, to hilltopyouth, to haridi, to habad, to neutri karta to subsects who idolize a scholor in russia to those who believe that bringing back the temple is the end all (did i get your variation in there?)........and all of them living together without once cult or sect telling the others how to live.....kind of like you have it in america.

you seem to have a problem with that.....at least as far as I understand.....

[pelsar]

It's really impossible to stop laughing at all this comedy you're spewing around around here. I'm neither religious, nor do I promote the idea of dictatorship. And to top it off for you, I was in support of the withdrawal.

So who's being hypocritical? :rolleyes:

well then i am confused..

wasnt this one of yours?

"It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin."

thats what people who are against democracies promote in their own country: kill the leader who was elected that you disagree with.

[Reffo]

OK, but don't be in such a rush to accommodate him either. By all means, reward Abbas for effort and do a bit of give and take, don't rush just to give, because your efforts may not be appreciated and will probably be misconstrued. Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?
but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externallyPelsar, I think you misunderstood my post entirely. I was not necessarily against the Gaza withdrawal although, if truth be known, I do have some reservations about the way it was done. Nevertheless, I do accept it and time will tell whether it was the right move.

What I was saying to Sharonbn is that after the Gaza withdrawal, Israel should take care not to get too far ahead of itself with unreciprocated concessions to Abbas because such gestures seem to be miscontrued by the Palestinians.

Now, here is a question to you: You say that "the palestenains get to prove themselves...". What, in your opinion, should happen if they fail the test and continue their terrorism against Israel? How should Israel react? Do you think they should then still continue to give up more land?

[redcake]

you really dont get it do you?....its not about atheists or appeasing anti semites....its about jews living in israel in all their variations from non religious to reform to conservative to orthadox, to religious zionism, to hilltopyouth, to haridi, to habad, to neutri karta to subsects who idolize a scholor in russia to those who believe that bringing back the temple is the end all (did i get your variation in there?)........and all of them living together without once cult or sect telling the others how to live.....kind of like you have it in america.

you seem to have a problem with that.....at least as far as I understand.....

Nope, no problem with that at all. So why do you keep claiming that's the issue ? Israel's infighting and cliques are a source of frusteration, but the Israeli obsession with arguing (or talking over one another and only hearing what they want to hear) is only about as relevant to the freedom and existance of Israel as it's enemies are. Meaning, the topic is Abbas, the PA and Israel's shrinking borders while under attack.... some people would rather make it a topic of the enemy within, but that self defeating attitude gets us nowhere. When your enemies side with your strategies, you know you're in trouble. When you can't distinguish your enemies from your own people, then you're doomed.

[Reffo]

I was trying to be more narrow. What does anyone think a workable definition of 'peace' is. In other words let's start with what people are willing to accept and then figure out how to work toward that. Is one attack a month acceptable? Two? Zero? What is the permissible scope of attacks? For example should Israel respond if it's bus that's blown up versus an El Al jet? Can Palestinians implore the UN to declare that Jews breathing Palestinian air is a warcrime? And so on. I don't think anyone but the Kool Aid suckers actually believe that Israel and the Palestinians can have anything of any practical import to do with one another, or if they say they do believe it they're simply being disingenuous. On the other hand it's critical to understand what events and what escalations will trigger any given response moving forward. Perfect peace is impossible, even a deeply flawed peace with periodic atrocities is not completely workable. What they have to come to terms with is how much or little of that they each can live with.IMO, not a single attack is really acceptable. However, as you say crimes do happen and unfortunately it is probably not realistic to expect that ALL terrorist acts will stop, especially in the short term. How should Israel react? Well, IMO it depends on what the Palestinians will do to try and stop terrorism. If they will just pay lip service and do nothing about the incitement, nothing to outlaw the terrorist organisations, nothing to prosecute the perpetrators and nothing to disarm the terrorist organisations, then it's obviously up to Israel to act and to defend it's own citizens. However, if the Palestinian authorities will act in good faith, and they will both be seen to be doing the job and actually doing it, then Israel should let them take care of the problem and offer whatever help that they may ask (within reason).

[Mediocrates]

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.



Your post strikes as one from someone who is happy when there is even no opportunity for political dispute. That's really what I think amazes me most of all from the pull-out-niks. Not that their solution makes or does not make practical sense or that their methods were appropriate or fascistic. It's that they deny even the possibility that there could or would be a political discussion on the matter. One can imagine a day when turnabout is fair play and you'll hear the pull-out-niks scream to the heavens they don't believe in how brutal and unfair. Ah well, I'm sure you believe you've reached The End of History and nothing bad or contentious wil ever happen. I'm sure you're right.

[pelsar]

Nope, no problem with that at all.

When your enemies side with your strategies, you know you're in trouble. When you can't distinguish your enemies from your own people, then you're doomed.

all of the above mentioned groups have their own viewpoints...some i will disagree with some i wont...but you wont hear from me that they are "traitors".....some of those beliefs will also conincide with the palestenians...depending upon which your talking to...thats the way life is.

your statement that "cant distinguish your enemies from your own people"...is exactly the problem you have with tolerence in the above groups You have "no problem with them" on the conditiion that they can distinguish according to the WAY YOU BELIEVE......seems you do have a problem with the list....at least admit it.

[pelsar]

Your post strikes as one from someone who is happy when there is even no opportunity for political dispute. That's really what I think amazes me most of all from the pull-out-niks. Not that their solution makes or does not make practical sense or that their methods were appropriate or fascistic. It's that they deny even the possibility that there could or would be a political discussion on the matter. One can imagine a day when turnabout is fair play and you'll hear the pull-out-niks scream to the heavens they don't believe in how brutal and unfair. Ah well, I'm sure you believe you've reached The End of History and nothing bad or contentious wil ever happen. I'm sure you're right.

perhaps you dont live in israel then....no opportunity for political dispute?.....let me help: the disputes were daily in the papers, radios, in the streets,....a few protests...but not the kind we saw during oslo....meaning they was quite limited in size using lots of children.

for those who were against, it was painfully obvious that they didnt have the majority with them.

But then thats how the democracy in israel works...change occures through mass protests (100,000 and up gets the politicians attentions)

no political discussion?.....wrong county.

[pelsar]

Pelsar, Now, here is a question to you: You say that "the palestenains get to prove themselves...". What, in your opinion, should happen if they fail the test and continue their terrorism against Israel? How should Israel react? Do you think they should then still continue to give up more land?

failure would mean they shoot at us....our response is simple:

artillary/air force bombings and tank fire...crossborder incidents should be treated as such.

palestenains who jump the fence should be shot at first.....

no more land given to them, until gaza is a peaceful neighbor and their society has developed into such a thing... if possible

[Reffo]

Pelsar

Then, basically, we are in agreement. But here is another question to you: What should be Israel's reaction if the attacks stop from Gaza but continue from the West Bank?

[redcake]

your statement that "cant distinguish your enemies from your own people"...is exactly the problem you have with tolerence in the above groups You have "no problem with them" on the conditiion that they can distinguish according to the WAY YOU BELIEVE......seems you do have a problem with the list....at least admit it.

What psycho babble. There are groups you named I agree with, and some I disagree with...and I'm human, and opinionated, and honest, and so what?

Not only did you miss Reffo's point, but you obviously misunderstood my post entirely when I said (and I'll rephrase it for you) "You're doomed if you can't distinguish between your enemies and your own people"....and since you Pelsar, are doomed....I'll clarify... I meant the enemies are those who wish to eradicate Israel, and push the Jews into the ocean....and if you have to waste your time infighting, wasting your time by fixating on the polarization between factions, you're fighting the wrong battle. I think you're incredibly confused about what the real issues are which stand in your way of Israeli functioning as one harmonius wonderland with group sing alongs at the Knirret.

[pelsar]

Pelsar

Then, basically, we are in agreement. But here is another question to you: What should be Israel's reaction if the attacks stop from Gaza but continue from the West Bank?

trickier...because thats also a real possibility... if gaza works then the belief that the palestenians can actually make a real society and live as neighbors with us will become "real' to probably the majority of the israelis.

but not just us..but to them as well..a change in mindset for most of us.

bottomline?...if they prove themselves in gaza then we have no choice but to give them their state in the westbank as well. The shootings will go on as that is what gave them their "state" in gaza...but if those in gaza are living peacefully.....then they'll get their state in the westbank as well...it would be impossible to justify the occupation for security reasons if that reason no longer exists.

and as the gaza pullout showed...messianic zionism where the land is the most precious, doesnt "speak" to most israelis.

[pelsar]

"You're doomed if you can't distinguish between your enemies and your own people"....and since you Pelsar, are doomed....I'll clarify... I meant the enemies are those who wish to eradicate Israel, and push the Jews into the ocean....and if you have to waste your time infighting, wasting your time by fixating on the polarization between factions, you're fighting the wrong battle. I think you're incredibly confused about what the real issues are which stand in your way of Israeli functioning as one harmonius wonderland with group sing alongs at the Knirret.

confused?...hardly.... i can distinguish between enemies who want to eradicate israel...them i shoot at. and others with whom i disagree..them i argue with.

one group gets bullets from me, the other gets words....the second group is hardly "traitors" or doomed, they are part of the mosaic of israel..no more and no less. We're quite talented, over here in israel, we can argue with each other and shoot at the enemy...

your "dooming" me shows your intolerance thats all. The issues that stand in our way...is exactly what your talking about: intolerance...claiming that those who disagree with you are "doomed" is hardly an example of tolerance.

[Reffo]

trickier...because thats also a real possibility... if gaza works then the belief that the palestenians can actually make a real society and live as neighbors with us will become "real' to probably the majority of the israelis.

but not just us..but to them as well..a change in mindset for most of us.

bottomline?...if they prove themselves in gaza then we have no choice but to give them their state in the westbank as well. The shootings will go on as that is what gave them their "state" in gaza...but if those in gaza are living peacefully.....then they'll get their state in the westbank as well...it would be impossible to justify the occupation for security reasons if that reason no longer exists.

and as the gaza pullout showed...messianic zionism where the land is the most precious, doesnt "speak" to most israelis.Yes, it will be very tricky especially if they get their cherished free land corridor between Gaza and the WB. They will then get new sophisticated weapons into Gaza via Egypt (the border inspections that the Egyptians agreed to do are already a joke). These weapons will then be smuggled to the WB and will be used against Israel from there.

If that indeed will happen, I for one would hope that Israel will immediately stop offering further concessions and it should certainly not trade any more land for so called peace, until the Palestinians see reason and start acting more reasonably. What do you think?

[redcake]

confused?...hardly.... i can distinguish between enemies who want to eradicate israel...them i shoot at. and others with whom i disagree..them i argue with.

Okay Sgt. Moonbeam, and how can you distinguish which enemies you shoot at, and which enemies you negotiate with? Derrrrr.

[pelsar]

Yes, it will be very tricky especially if they get their cherished free land corridor between Gaza and the WB. They will then get new sophisticated weapons into Gaza via Egypt (the border inspections that the Egyptians agreed to do are already a joke). These weapons will then be smuggled to the WB and will be used against Israel from there.

If that indeed will happen, I for one would hope that Israel will immediately stop offering further concessions and it should certainly not trade any more land for so called peace, until the Palestinians see reason and start acting more reasonably. What do you think?

i think the whole process has to be "piecemeal"...with us using overwhelming force when they "get out of hand"..

meaning no land corridor for a long long time...let them go through egypt-jordan-westbank.

problem is not just the immediate "country" they make..its also 20 years down the line....will their pseudo democracy have a coup in 20 years and we get ourselves a mini iran next door?

so even if it gaza works...and then the westbank works...given the "arab culture and history I really have no confidence that this will work out long term.....

as far as their "border checks"....i really dont think anybody expected anything more than what is happening now.....as long as they are "there" and we are "here" i'm for the seperation....I prefer to shoot from afar using long range equipment than sneaking in the back alleys of jebalya or riding shot gun for a school bus full of kids as they pass the sqaulor of a refugee camp.

actually there problems are just beginning....bringing in the refugees from jordan or lebanon.....i dont even want to think about it, unlike the jews who came from around the world..all of these groups have no real loyalty to anything other than their local imman, the gun and belly full of hate and false illusions of their "palestine"

[pelsar]

Okay Sgt. Moonbeam, and how can you distinguish which enemies you shoot at, and which enemies you negotiate with? Derrrrr.

israelis i talk to, whether they are haridi, left, right, anti religous, cult, jew for jesus, arab, druze, bedouin etc. i give them the benefit of the doubt that their belief what ever it is, is based on their caring for israel the country and the citizens...and therefore respect it..as the default and dont insult their beliefs by calling them "traitors" etc. Sometimes you discover that they have been places, and done things that one only reads about in spy 'fiction" novels...

palestenians who have a gun pointed at me i shoot....

palestenains who talk....i also talk, with a loaded gun pointed at them....

[KettleWhistle]

thats what people who are against democracies promote in their own country: kill the leader who was elected that you disagree with.

Democracy is a country ran by the will of the people. Rabin was ignoring the will of the people when he brought the terrorists to Israel and gave them land, money, and weapons. He had to be taken out in order to institute the will of the people, not to abandon it. And if the MKs at the time were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the treason treo--Rabin, Peres, and Beilin (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44)--would've been rotting in jail for their crimes.

[pelsar]

Democracy is a country ran by the will of the people. Rabin was ignoring the will of the people when he brought the terrorists to Israel and gave them land, money, and weapons. He had to be taken out in order to institute the will of the people, not to abandon it. And if the MKs at the time were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the treason treo--Rabin, Peres, and Beilin (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44)--would've been rotting in jail for their crimes.

guess you dont understand what democracies and leaders are all about....."taking out a leader"...is what arab dictatorships and others do...not western democracies. and also the MKs were also involved...so they should have been 'strung up as well"......anybody else on your list?...guess people like me as well...my family, neighborhood, army unit....gonna be a long long long list.

the "will of the people"?...huh?... i dont recall millions in the streets protesting?...i do recall protests that involved 100,000 but that is a very very long way of being the "will of the people"..and i do recall a very very close election soon after that..will of the people?...at best a bit over 50% hardly the "will of the people"...but democracies are not built upon polls. They are built around choosing leaders making decisions for all, and if you disagree you protest and scream you dont go about killing those you dont like.....

anybody who believes that a PM + members of the knesset should be murdered for making decisions they dont agree with is not one that believes in democracy...we call that facism.

[Reffo]

Pelsar

OK, I have no problems with your analysis and by and large I agree with you except on this point:
I prefer to shoot from afar using long range equipment than sneaking in the back alleys of jebalya or riding shot gun for a school bus full of kids as they pass the sqaulor of a refugee camp.Although I do understand your desire to deal with them from the distance, unfortunately though if it's war, all options of response should remain open. Also, don't forget the reaction sanctimonious reactions of Israel's many critics in the world. Their criticisms of Israel will not diminish if Israel will "shoot from afar, using long range equipment". I can already hear their accusations about "War Crimes". So, unfortunately, life for Israel and Israelis will continue to be complicated, no matter what it does.

[pelsar]

Pelsar

OK, I have no problems with your analysis and by and large I agree with you except on this point:
Although I do understand your desire to deal with them from the distance, unfortunately though if it's war, all options of response should remain open. Also, don't forget the reaction sanctimonious reactions of Israel's many critics in the world. Their criticisms of Israel will not diminish if Israel will "shoot from afar, using long range equipment". I can already hear their accusations about "War Crimes". So, unfortunately, life for Israel and Israelis will continue to be complicated, no matter what it does.

war is war...but if we have some sort of "quasi war"...then i prefer the air force and tanks....if we take back the westbank and gaza we have to basically flatten them to the ground. Wars really only end when the enemy is totally demoralized to the point of "giving up all hope'...that really only happens when they are so overwhelmed and utterly destroyed....yes lots of "war crimes".

i've read where its best to have massive force used, lots of casulties in the short run...then have these things dragged out...and i guess were a prime example of both (6 day war vs intifadas)

anyway....we shall see...the upcoming leaders are now 20yr old kids...they will be deciding our fates

[KettleWhistle]

guess you dont understand what democracies and leaders are all about....."taking out a leader"...is what arab dictatorships and others do...not western democracies. ...
anybody who believes that a PM + members of the knesset should be murdered for making decisions they dont agree with is not one that believes in democracy...we call that facism.

LOL... Fascism is what Rabin's government was trying to institute. Fascism is a near-to-full dictatorship that ignores the will of the people. He had to be taken out because his actions were undemocratic. It has nothing to do with you or your family--only with those who oppose democracy and use corrupt methods to get to positions of leadership.

You and yours need a dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a few history textbooks to learn what words democracy, patriotism, and citizeship really mean.

[pelsar]

LOL... Fascism is what Rabin's government was trying to institute. Fascism is a near-to-full dictatorship that ignores the will of the people. He had to be taken out because his actions were undemocratic. It has nothing to do with you or your family--only with those who oppose democracy and use corrupt methods to get to positions of leadership.
.

oh i get it....an elected official, supported by the parliment in a democratic country can be taken out by those who believe in democracy by murder....so that would include Bush and Blair since the polls show they are not very popular right now and therefore their decisions are "undemocratic" (what does that even mean?). How about Begin....should he have been taken out..he too wasnt so popular...Ben Gurion, also not very demoratic?... Golda?...Reagan? ...whats the criteria used for deciding that a western leader is no longer democratic enough and its ok to kill him

btw....which "will of the people" are your talking about?....is there a "will of the people" that I dont know about, because the will of the "people that i know" were for him.... is "your will of the people superiour to "my will of the people"....

is this "will of the people" related to stevek "living god"...its all so confusing to me when everyone else is telling me what "everyone else is or should be believing in......except that nobody else does

[KettleWhistle]

Nice try to scew what I said, not! It's not about "democracy by murder" It is about instituting the will of the people. If Bush was to bring Bin Laden to the States, he'd be out of the office in no time. Because that would've been the will of the people. A part of the true democracy is controlling over politicians who abuse their power. With Rabin, these controls failed very miserably. That's why he was killed, and deservingly so--that was the only way to protect the country from him.

"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
http://www.pineywoodsplace.com/IMAGES/00.gif -- Thomas Jefferson

[pelsar]

Nice try to scew what I said, not! It's not about "democracy by murder" It is about instituting the will of the people.


What will of the people are you talking about?.....according to my information the "will of the people" were behind rabin....

er i didnt twist your words...you said it: democractically elected leaders can be killed if they dont follow what certain people think...."will of the people" is nothing more some kind of play on words for people to justify taking power in their own hands (as in the USSR).

you can now explain this "will of the people" and how is it measured...and for how long is it good for...weekly? monthly? annually? or is it based on a particular policy?....can we include MKs in that as well?...where does this ability to kill politicians who dont follow the "will of the people" end?...how about mayors?...local councilman?

and whos "will" gets precedent over other wills ...do you do it by polls? or by who has the most guns (I think thats how the palestenians measure the "will of the people"...they also use that terminolgy alot, right before they string up somebody)

[Ophra]

Pelsar ..... I just found this ... take a mo and read it ... says it all IMHO.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1497

[KettleWhistle]

What will of the people are you talking about?.....according to my information the "will of the people" were behind rabin....

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

[pelsar]

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

you have yet to explain who are these 'will of the people"...how did you measure it? what "overwhelming majority...i was here during that period and sure dont remember any "overwhelming majority...and infact the elections right after that showed us that the "overwhelming majority was non existant...conflicted yes...overwhelming?....hardly

...i'm waiting......

(when was the last time the US had a referendum?...before the civil war?. wwII, vietnam? korea?, wwI?, civil rights laws?)

[pelsar]

Pelsar ..... I just found this ... take a mo and read it ... says it all IMHO.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1497
fundamentalism...they look the same, talk the same, use the same phrases..and are all interchangeable

the atlantic monthly had an article about the "students" of iran that took over the US embassy years ago....a bit bitter they are....they didnt understand what fundamentalism was all about...now they do

[Ophra]

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

Strange :confused: ...... I was in Rabin square the night he was shot..... I have this weird recollection of 10's of thousands and 10's of thousands of people around about me ..... maybe I was mistaken and it was just me,pelsar and "Gush Shoalom" ??? :rolleyes:

[KettleWhistle]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it. The Gush Shoaloms and ISMs couldn't defeat Bibi even after all the spineless nincompoops like you were shocked into voting Labor for no reason other than that the traitor was finally taken out. That was the one and only reason for a close election. But nice try, nevertheless. Keep on with the revisionism!

And the U.S. never had such issues to vote on. But Canada did vote on Quebec, didn't it?

[Ophra]

fundamentalism...they look the same, talk the same, use the same phrases..and are all interchangeable

the atlantic monthly had an article about the "students" of iran that took over the US embassy years ago....a bit bitter they are....they didnt understand what fundamentalism was all about...now they do

Ok then.... my take on KW is ... that he is a far right Russian Atheist fundamentalist .... who can't tell right from wrong ... and likes to pee on other peoples Heroes memorials . :D ..... apart from that he is a nothing but a boasting boring windbag .

[KettleWhistle]

Additionally, in 2004 several localities in the U.S. voted on whether to do various administrative redistricting. Several towns that are currently incorporated into the Greater Los Angeles Area in California voted on whether they should secede, as did a town in Vermont that wanted to be redistricted to Maryland.

[pelsar]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it. The Gush Shoaloms and ISMs couldn't defeat Bibi even after all the spineless nincompoops like you were shocked into voting Labor for no reason other than that the traitor was finally taken out. That was the one and only reason for a close election. But nice try, nevertheless. Keep on with the revisionism!

And the U.S. never had such issues to vote on. But Canada did vote on Quebec, didn't it?

the amercian Civil War?...that wasnt serious enough for a vote? civil rights (had call out the national guard)

and you have failed to show me the "will of the people"...bibi barely squeaked by...and then lost to labor....so where was this "will of the people" that was so overwhelming?.....

they were "shocked" in to voting labor"...what kind of "will of the people is that....so let me get this straight....even when the people voted for labor they really meant to vote for bibi because they were part of the "overwhelming will of the people..but they didnt know that...but you do?.....

kind of stretching it here arent we?...i admit this "will of the people" is getting harder and harder to find....i mean their hiding behind voting for labor?...is that what your saying?..by the way...whats the "will of the people say now?..if sharon wins again (and I will be voting for him)...does that mean those who do really dont mean to..but are still in shock from the gaza pullout?...

oh yea...can we kill sharon too?....your version of democracy in action

[sharonbn]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it.
please don't try to come here again and wear shirts with the same sloagan with portrait of Sharon. I will make a citizen's arrest...

[pelsar]

please don't try to come here again and wear shirts with the same sloagan with portrait of Sharon. I will make a citizen's arrest...

he must be a very brave person....after all he couldnt even wear the shirt on the outside even though the "will of the people" were behind him....

but he does seem to have a problem finding this "will of the people"...you know the ones that voted for labor because they were in shock.....how does that work?

they were mad a rabin as a traitor, glad he was murdered....then voted for labor ...which he representated..but still they were happy he was dead because he was traitor...did i get that right?

i think kw here is one for the looney bin

[Mediocrates]

You just have a much more restrictive sense of Free Speech than we do.

[sharonbn]

not if you compare America post 9/11...

[Mediocrates]

No, not if what you say right here right now is true. I can walk down the strett carrying any number of obnxious messages. I can attend Klan rallies if I like without worrying about legal ramifications.

[KSO]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it.
Damn it you are brave, you make Audie Murphy look like a transvestite chicken.

[KettleWhistle]

please don't try to come here again and wear shirts with the same sloagan with portrait of Sharon. I will make a citizen's arrest...

Oh, phlease, stop it. Sharon did not betray Israel; Rabin did. There is no comparison, at all.

[KettleWhistle]

the amercian Civil War?...that wasnt serious enough for a vote? civil rights (had call out the national guard)

and you have failed to show me the "will of the people"...bibi barely squeaked by...and then lost to labor....so where was this "will of the people" that was so overwhelming?.....

they were "shocked" in to voting labor"...what kind of "will of the people is that....so let me get this straight....even when the people voted for labor they really meant to vote for bibi because they were part of the "overwhelming will of the people..but they didnt know that...but you do?.....

kind of stretching it here arent we?...i admit this "will of the people" is getting harder and harder to find....i mean their hiding behind voting for labor?...is that what your saying?..by the way...whats the "will of the people say now?..if sharon wins again (and I will be voting for him)...does that mean those who do really dont mean to..but are still in shock from the gaza pullout?...

oh yea...can we kill sharon too?....your version of democracy in action
Are you seriously that clueless?

[pelsar]

Are you seriously that clueless?

its your claim..."the will of the people"..yet you wouldnt even wear your "kill rabin the traitor" t-shirt in full view...why not? since everyone agrees with you?

anyway I'm still waiting to find out why the "will of the people" barely elected bibi and then go back to labor...when they were so against olso

and of course can we kill sharon now that he too is going against this invisable, that only you can see "will of the people"...did i get that right?

[SteveK]

why not?...doesnt he [THE DEAD LUBAVITCHER RABBI WHO HIS FOLLOWERS CLAIM TO BE THE MESSIAH TO RISE FROM THE DEAD (SOON)] have our new numbers?

pelsar,

Do you really want me to reduce myself to your level to answer your stupid nonsense here with nonsense?

The bottom line is that Chabad addresses a whole lot of people over a very wide spectrum from the rich jet set like you to folks who have more pain and sorrow in their lives than the both of us have ever known or could understand.
The Messiah shtick with their deceased Rebbe is not a concept out of bounds to Judaism, and gives those who do need to believe the faith to keep going in life. I'm not saying that the Chabad organization is not also looking to make a buck and some big bucks with their marketing campaign, but in the final analysis God and His sanctification does drive the organization through even their "being there and everywhere" for Jews to come back to God and His Torah.

<edited by moderator>

[pelsar]

pelsar,

Do you really want me to reduce myself to your level to answer your stupid nonsense here with nonsense?

The bottom line is that Chabad addresses a whole lot of people over a very wide spectrum from the rich jet set like you to folks who have more pain and sorrow in their lives than the both of us have ever known or could understand.
The Messiah shtick with their deceased Rebbe is not a concept out of bounds to Judaism, and gives those who do need to believe the faith to keep going in life. I'm not saying that the Chabad organization is not also looking to make a buck and some big bucks with their marketing campaign, but in the final analysis God and His sanctification does drive the organization through even their "being there and everywhere" for Jews to come back to God and His Torah.

<edited by moderator>

relax stevek....i dont expect the messiach to give me a call...and i am quite familiar with chabad...both as a cult (they remind me of the mormons) as well as a very good outreach program to those in need, both spirtually as well as physically.

actually i'm a son of an engineer, a WWII vet who used the GI bill to get out of the assembly line at ford into a managerial position. Cant say i much of the jet set...more of a working stiff who had 2 jobs while going to college, and managed to get a masters over time....you really should watch your stereotypes...tends to shows ones tendencies for lack of tolerence for the other...so quick to stereotype and sooooo wrong.

[SteveK]

relax stevek....i dont expect the messiach to give me a call...and i am quite familiar with chabad...both as a cult (they remind me of the mormons) as well as a very good outreach program to those in need, both spirtually as well as physically.

actually i'm a son of an engineer, a WWII vet who used the GI bill to get out of the assembly line at ford into a managerial position. Cant say i much of the jet set...more of a working stiff who had 2 jobs while going to college, and managed to get a masters over time....you really should watch your stereotypes...tends to shows ones tendencies for lack of tolerence for the other...so quick to stereotype and sooooo wrong.


Henry Ford wrote the book on Jewish stereotypes.

During WWII the old man was still alive, wasn't he? Was it his son or grandson that started to run Ford Motors about this time after he came back from the war? Lee Iaccoca (Chrysler fame) wrote that book about the Ford family and this real S.O.B. who later fired him.

Your father, a Jew got into management at Ford around the time of WWII??? Henry Ford and family were being honored by Hitler for supplying him, and the old man pushed the infamous "Protocols of Zion".

Is that where you learned to sell your Jewish soul,--- from your old man, a "Jew" on the rise at Ford Motor Company?

[pelsar]

.

Is that where you learned to sell your Jewish soul,--- from your old man, a "Jew" on the rise at Ford Motor Company?

i must say i've never heard that before....my father who spent much of his life breaking down jewish barriers...is now considered some one who "sold his soul"

again you write of what you know nothing about.......you seem to have a problem with us jews and israelis who dont accept your "living god".....as if were all "traitors ' or something......

remind me again..which dead rabbi or "scholar" do you follow as having "the ultimate wisdom"

[SteveK]

i must say i've never heard that before....my father who spent much of his life breaking down jewish barriers...is now considered some one who "sold his soul"

again you write of what you know nothing about.......you seem to have a problem with us jews and israelis who dont accept your "living god".....as if were all "traitors ' or something......

remind me again..which dead rabbi or "scholar" do you follow as having "the ultimate wisdom"

pelsar,

You also write (and speak, I guess) of things against your Jewish heritage that you really don't know anything about. 3,500+ years saw a whole lot of dead Jewish kings, prophets, judges, rabbis, and Torah scholars, and especially through the last 2,000 years of unspeakable persecutions, break through a hell of lot more barriers for the Jewish People than your old man could have ever imagined.

And, how did they do it? By sanctifying The Living God of Israel and His Torah!

Great to see that you have sobered up, kid. You will need more than just a smart mouth to counter your opposition from the Torah leadership here.

[frizzer1]

Okay, so KW is saying that any PM who is acting against the will of the people is a traitor and should be shot in the back or taken out as he puts it?
But that's not fascism?
So I suggest that as a democracy israel should vote on who is not following the wishes of the majority and therefore is a traitor.
Then they can shoot him in the back.

[pelsar]

pelsar,

You also write (and speak, I guess) of things against your Jewish heritage that you really don't know anything about. 3,500+ years saw a whole lot of dead Jewish kings, prophets, judges, rabbis, and Torah scholars, and especially through the last 2,000 years of unspeakable persecutions, break through a hell of lot more barriers for the Jewish People than your old man could have ever imagined.
.

thats where your sooooo wrong......a lot of those "torah scholars" let the cosssaks and hitlerits kill them like flies....and those "unspeakable perseuctions were partially because they believed the "torah would protect them...it didnt.

btw you've been in israel for quite sometime.....have you served in the IDF?..have you done whats necessary to defend israel from the "cossacks" at our door?...or have you taken the older traditional way of lowering your head and praying to god that they "pass by this time without harming you" syndrom.......with the pathetic excuse that "praying and torah learning" are just as important in the defense as is guarding the front line....hint...you can do both here in israel...others will guard while you take the time to put on your tephillin...+ you can make up for the "lost time" by doing an extra hour on the tower....no problem.

its people like my father, his brothers that understood to be a jew does not mean being a passive flunky....believing that some god will protect us from persecution..or some belief in the wisdom of some dead rabbi as the 'end all of wisdom...nooooo....no longer....we've since learned to fight...to make change and we prefer that to sitting around believing that some mysterious being will protect us from all evil...and promise us and afterlife full of 72 virgins (oops wrong after life promise.....) er one of innner peace..or whatever

[frizzer1]

Pelsar, a question.
Hypothetically what if 95% of israelis become completely secular with basically no attachment to judaism and the remainder are haredi who confine themselves to their own little enclaves and don't participate.
What do you think israeli society will be like in 50 years or 100 years, for example?

[pelsar]

Pelsar, a question.
Hypothetically what if 95% of israelis become completely secular with basically no attachment to judaism and the remainder are haredi who confine themselves to their own little enclaves and don't participate.
What do you think israeli society will be like in 50 years or 100 years, for example?

then israel would look like the US...meaning the US is basically a christian nation....so israel would be "jewish nation" in character.

i doubt that would happen however given the vast amount of "judiaism" that exists today in so many shapes and forms in israel, the archeology that connects the religion to the past and to the culture....its way too "thick" to not have an influence on the jews here. Even the secular arent so secular...take them out of israel and all of a sudden they're saying kiddush...the kids of the secular...many find judiaism or some variation of it in later years.

[KettleWhistle]

Okay, so KW is saying that any PM who is acting against the will of the people is a traitor and should be shot in the back or taken out as he puts it?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Try to actually read what I wrote. Having individual citizens to take such action is an absolutely last resort, not a standard or typical action. Rabin should've been in jail, but the legal safeguards failed in his case.

As for "shooting him in the back," get off the high horse. Seriously. I understand that someone like you would've probably tried to have a chat with him to explain all the wrongs of his actions before shooting him from the front, but Igal Amir did what needed to be done, and in the only way that it could've been done. It was a heroic and noble sacrifice.

[pelsar]

No, that's not what I'm saying. Try to actually read what I wrote. Having individual citizens to take such action is an absolutely last resort, not a standard or typical action. Rabin should've been in jail, but the legal safeguards failed in his case.

As for "shooting him in the back," get off the high horse. Seriously. I understand that someone like you would've probably tried to have a chat with him to explain all the wrongs of his actions before shooting him from the front, but Igal Amir did what needed to be done, and in the only way that it could've been done. It was a heroic and noble sacrifice.

no he got it right....if the rules of democracy dont "suit' you...when the "will of the people" speak and you are the one who decides this "will"...you then are allowed to kill those that interfer with this "will of the people".

which is actually just a way of saying: who ever doesnt agree with me either has to step down...or can be forced down....killing them if necessary.

you made yourself very clear....with your "will of the people"...btw you still have yet to explain how did you know? (hint probably the same way the palestenains "know" when the kill a homosexual and string him up on a lampost....you guys must have a "sixth sense' for this "will of the people)

[KettleWhistle]

Rules of democracy suit me just fine. But they did not suit Rabin&Co. Which is why there was no refferendum on Oslo.

[pelsar]

Rules of democracy suit me just fine. But they did not suit Rabin&Co. Which is why there was no refferendum on Oslo.

obviously not since you proclaim killing the prime minister as justified..

simply because he did not have a a referendum....so?....cant recall when it says no referendum means its ok to kill the pm (can we kill all the PMs then, since none of them had referendums and all have major decisions involving life and death-or do you have a yard stick for which decisions requires the referendums or death choice for the PM?

perhaps you should list them..so future PMs wont be confused?

you stick to the rules as long as they suit you...and when they dont..you proclaim that they no longer apply...pretty strange democracy you have there.

[KettleWhistle]

obviously not since you proclaim killing the prime minister as justified..

I am proclaiming that killing that particular PM, in that particular situation, under those particular circumstances was justified. Stop playing stupid. You know as well as the next guy that we aren't talking about some citi-hall paper-shoveler's refusal to fix a lamp post here or fill a pothole there.

[pelsar]

I am proclaiming that killing that particular PM, in that particular situation, under those particular circumstances was justified. Stop playing stupid. You know as well as the next guy that we aren't talking about some citi-hall paper-shoveler's refusal to fix a lamp post here or fill a pothole there.

no we dont know....you also proclaimed that the MKs (Bailen... who were with him also deserved to go...which jail or be killed?...so how far down the line do you go in killing or jailing those who disagree with you?

[KettleWhistle]

Sorry, I'm not into debating with children. Their crimes are well known. Secret negotiations with the PLO were against Israeli law. Aside from the fact that more people died in post-Oslo Israel than in pre-Oslo. Enuf said. Grow up, then we can debate some more.

[pelsar]

Sorry, I'm not into debating with children. Their crimes are well known. Secret negotiations with the PLO were against Israeli law. Aside from the fact that more people died in post-Oslo Israel than in pre-Oslo. Enuf said. Grow up, then we can debate some more.

is that your measurement?...number of killed...well then how about we should have strung up Golda...73 war sure cost us a lot killed (that was pre oslo btw). Ben Gurion also for getting all those killed in 48.....thats your criteria?

lebanon?...should have had Begin swinging from a post...btw didnt he give back the sinai without a referendum?

i really have no idea what "crimes are well known" (the state does have the right to negoitate with whomever it chooses)..i guesss thats like your "peoples will".....both exist in your head and simply dont make down to the street..but then you are the one who wore his rabin is a traitor tshirt proudly hidden under a covering ....even though the "people" were with you. wear it outside....have the "people" support you.....you seem to think so

you so full of contradictions and illusions....democracy...except that its ok to kill the prime minister cause you think he commited a crime...thats real democracy at work

the "will of the peoplel"...where?...i still waiting for some kind of information about this "will"....(but dont use the voting for the next PM after rabin....its shows the "will" to be pretty evenly divided..or the one after that...where labor won....)...but i'm sure its there....somewhere.....

that would be a good place to start....explaining how you know about this mysterious "will of the people"...and i dont

[Ophra]

Sorry, I'm not into debating with children. Their crimes are well known.

No.... you are into running around peeing on memorials ..... very adult :rolleyes:

Yeah KW ... you're crimes are well known alright ... you do remember that desecration of national monuments is a crime in Israel .. don't you ?????

[KettleWhistle]

well then how about we should have strung up Golda
Yes. Golda was the pinnacle of incompetence, and should've never been elected. But that's not the point.

btw didnt he give back the sinai without a referendum? And that was just as wrong, and should've been opposed by everyone who supports democracy. In democratic countries such issues are decided by a public vote, not by corrupt backroom politicians.

Other than that, like I told you before, grow up. I'm not going to go on repeating the obvious, or explaining why you can't compare apples and oranges as equals.

[KSO]

Yes. Golda was the pinnacle of incompetence, and should've never been elected. But that's not the point.

And that was just as wrong, and should've been opposed by everyone who supports democracy. In democratic countries such issues are decided by a public vote, not by corrupt backroom politicians.

.

Well that's a legal problrm Sinai Was not israeli territory just like Gaza and the West bank (according to the Israeli law) as long it's a military occupied zone decisions can be made by the one who commands the military which is the PM.

[pelsar]

I'm not going to go on repeating the obvious, or explaining why you can't compare apples and oranges as equals.
no i'm still waiting...waiting to hear about the "will of the people"...like how do YOU know what it is....?

[KettleWhistle]

Have I mentioned something called a "refferendum (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=158530&postcount=124)?" I think I have.

Additionally, see here: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44

[pelsar]

Have I mentioned something called a "refferendum (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=158530&postcount=124)?" I think I have.

Additionally, see here: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44

yes you have...and it never happened...nor has it occured in the states during monumental shifts in policy (civil war, wwI, korean war, civil rights etc). So its not essential for democracies to have them....


and since there was virtually no protests (was there even one?) about the lack of referendum, its reasonable to assume that the israeli public wasnt really interested.

so your point is mute....i'm still waiting on the information about the "will of the people"..haveing a referendum that never happend proves nothing about any "will of the people"..

[KettleWhistle]

yes you have...and it never happened...nor has it occured in the states during monumental shifts in policy (civil war, wwI, korean war, civil rights etc). So its not essential for democracies to have them....
Utter nonsense. Wars do not require referendums. Territorial issues and decisions on major policy directions do. And you were presented with plenty of examples.

and since there was virtually no protests (was there even one?) about the lack of referendum, its reasonable to assume that the israeli public wasnt really interested.
Virtually no protests? ROFLOL... LOL.. LOL.. And what exactly were those multi-thousands crowds that protested Oslo, despite the police and political intimidation? Be careful here now, don't let democracy catch your tongue... because if you are for democracy you shouldn't have any problem with democratic referendums. But then something like that would make you to not be a leftist, since those like democracy to take a hold only within their countries' official names, but never in reality.

[pelsar]

Utter nonsense. Wars do not require referendums. Territorial issues and decisions on major policy directions do. And you were presented with plenty of examples.

Virtually no protests? ROFLOL... LOL.. LOL.. And what exactly were those multi-thousands crowds that protested Oslo, despite the police and political intimidation? .


i was talking about gaza not oslo...the major talk of the referendum came about during gaza


during oslo, there was less talk of any referendum and more talk of stopping it through massive protests....and the voting after rabins death was virtually 50/50..with a slight edge to bibi...which evaparated after he left and reversed itself.

consequently since voting is the ultimate referenedum its reasonable to say that we 've already had 2 on the olso process. one for and one against.....

thats your "will of the people".....split down the middle.
_______________

is this another one of yours?...why dont wars require referendums?...is that in democracy rules 101? seems to me wars are very much about territorial issues one way or another. Who decided which issues get to have referendums and which dont? you?....i would say wars are far more serious then simple territorial issues...

[Mediocrates]

On the other hand, even if you are right it's pretty dense to never admit that it might have been a mistake or at least badly implemented. All of this hero worhsip horsesh**t is what got you into this mess in the first place. If you're not planning on being realistic or pragmatic at all, then you might as well wrap a green dishrag round your head and ululate to Allah.

[redcake]

Shhhh. Everybody sing peace songs. Make the bad man go away. Make the bad man go away.

[pelsar]

On the other hand, even if you are right it's pretty dense to never admit that it might have been a mistake or at least badly implemented. All of this hero worhsip horsesh**t is what got you into this mess in the first place. If you're not planning on being realistic or pragmatic at all, then you might as well wrap a green dishrag round your head and ululate to Allah.

the question is not whether it was a mistake, badly implemeneted etc...what is being promoted by wk is that not only is is permissalbe to kill a prime minister but ones duty if he is endagering your country...according to the "will of the people".

I do not know what kind of democracy hes has in mind..but killing a prime minister is not within the rules of the game....and his "will of the people"....has yet to be found..i'm still waiting to discover how he knows about this "will" and why one "will of the peoplel " is superior to someones elses "will of the people"

finally this stuff about a democracy requires a referendum is hardly a requirement of a democracy (few actually have them)...but i do love the contradiction....no referenedum therefore its ok to kill the prime minister.

I did ask for a list of which policies require referendums so future prime ministers will know (the examples of us municipalities are hardly in the same league as gaza and the westbank): either have a referendum or DIE!..i'm still awaiting..so too is sharon

[pelsar]

Shhhh. Everybody sing peace songs. Make the bad man go away. Make the bad man go away.

sorry redcake...peace songs dont sway me.....nor for that matter does katushas, mortors, anti tank weapons nor machinegun fire....

[Mediocrates]

I think referenda are political cowardice and populism that ultimately lead to fascism. People get elected to lead not feel their own pulse every 5 minutes. And not to toss off all the hard choices on a bunch of emotional mass media driven know nothings. Remember that behind every populist is someone who want's you to give them unlimited power.

Your Parliamentary system has more than enough protections for that already, doesn't it? You can have recall elections which for us, California notwithstanding, are very rare and are always politically motivated.

[redcake]

I did ask for a list of which policies require referendums so future prime ministers will know

I think we should follow your policy earlier.... It went something like this:

The PM talking we let talk. The PM handing them the guns, we shoot.

[pelsar]

I think referenda are political cowardice and populism that ultimately lead to fascism. People get elected to lead not feel their own pulse every 5 minutes. And not to toss off all the hard choices on a bunch of emotional mass media driven know nothings. Remember that behind every populist is someone who want's you to give them unlimited power.

Your Parliamentary system has more than enough protections for that already, doesn't it? You can have recall elections which for us, California notwithstanding, are very rare and are always politically motivated.

personally i think referendems are absoluty the wrong way to go....for precisly what you wrote about...based on emotions, swayed by PR...populist decisions....the whole idea of electing leaders and having their advisors is to digest the massive amount of information and make the choices based on that..based on whats right and proper according to their values..the values of the elected officials.

decisions based on populist or madison avenue PR is the cowards way out...it takes a strong leader to make decisions that may not be popular, that may cost him his job/life....but that goes with the territory.

The "janitor" (excuse the stereotype) in sederot I doubt very much understands the issues and implications of major policy decisions..and in all due respect should not have a direct vote in policy decisions.

[KettleWhistle]

decisions based on populist or madison avenue PR is the cowards way out...it takes a strong leader to make decisions that may not be popular, that may cost him his job/life....but that goes with the territory.

The "janitor" (excuse the stereotype) in sederot I doubt very much understands the issues and implications of major policy decisions..and in all due respect should not have a direct vote in policy decisions.

What a great idea! I think you'd like for Israel to be renamed into a "Democratic Republic of Israel", which would have a group of people who would be allowed to vote (probably Labor Party members) because they know better. And since you'll have "Democratic" in the country's name, it will still be a democracy, right? I've heard it works great for governments of most of these Democratic Republics. You ought to really look into that.

[Mediocrates]

I would have to say that part of Israel's problem is the structural instability of their Parliamentary system. If they didn't have to screw around with fringe parties and no confidence votes, they could get more accomplished. Maybe they need a presidential system like Mexico's where the President can have one 6 year term and then leaves.

[KettleWhistle]

This "instability" is not the problem. Unaccountability that's due to the lack of direct representation is.

[pelsar]

I would have to say that part of Israel's problem is the structural instability of their Parliamentary system. If they didn't have to screw around with fringe parties and no confidence votes, they could get more accomplished. Maybe they need a presidential system like Mexico's where the President can have one 6 year term and then leaves.

israel has to get rid of the "party system"...and have direct representation....as it stands today, the MKs first loyality is to his partys central commitee...after that the party....the people dont even figure in the equation. No MK has to stand and be accounted for his acomplishments...doesnt exist in the present system.

maybe the idea was nice...that everyone is representated in the parliment...but the reality is simply a zoo with no solid connection to the citizens of israel.

there is a bunch of people who are trying to change the system to direct representation...but they have a long way to go.....

[Mediocrates]

you mean create enities like voting wards or districts? yes.

[pelsar]

you mean create enities like voting wards or districts? yes.

precisly....accountability....which is why it will be hard to change. As it stands today the knesset is simply an employment agency

[pelsar]

What a great idea! I think you'd like for Israel to be renamed into a "Democratic Republic of Israel", which would have a group of people who would be allowed to vote (probably Labor Party members) because they know better. And since you'll have "Democratic" in the country's name, it will still be a democracy, right? I've heard it works great for governments of most of these Democratic Republics. You ought to really look into that.

try to differentiate between voting for a party or candidate vs a referendum...whereas both will have a large PR aspect to it..the concentration on the referendum would simply become a populist issue devoid of any real substance.....

if you want a reference ...then look at the voting for the PM after rabins death...one against oslo, then for it...all within a span of a few years...the will of the people is usually fickled which is why representation is required for stability...and democracy is the best bet....and that doesnt inlcude shooting politicians you disagree with.

[SteveK]

.... its people like my father, his brothers that understood to be a jew does not mean being a passive flunky....believing that some god will protect us from persecution...


pelsar,

Let the dead Rebbes rest in peace. God is very much alive.

I'm sure that you have your personal reasons for loathing God, but Arik Sharon has no trouble in bringing his faith in God before the world.

Don't you think that Arik Sharon is a prime example of a "Shepherd of Israel" and could bring you and other atheist Israelis to faith in God and acceptance of the Torah? Do you think that Arik Sharon could unite the Torah leaders here and bring the Israeli People to a Torah Nation? Look at his few words here. Where else could his obvious devotion and connection to the true Jewish heritage take us?

An excerpt from the speech of our Prime Minister Arik Sharon to the United Nations:




http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/PMSpeaks/speech150905.htm

My friends and colleagues, heads and representatives of the UN member states,....

I arrived here from Jerusalem, the capital of the Jewish people for over 3,000 years, and the undivided and eternal capital of the State of Israel.

Ladies and Gentlemen,...

... The Jewish people have a long memory, the memory which united the exiles of Israel for thousands of years: a memory which has its origin in G-d’s commandment to our forefather Abraham: “Go forth!” and continued with the receiving of the Torah at the foot of Mount Sinai and the wanderings of the children of Israel in the desert, led by Moses on their journey to the promised land, the land of Israel. ...

... The Land of Israel is the open Bible, the written testimony, the identity and right of the Jewish people. Under its skies, the prophets of Israel expressed their claims for social justice, and their eternal vision for alliances between peoples, in a world which would know no more war. ...

[pelsar]

pelsar,

Let the dead Rebbes rest in peace. God is very much alive.

I'm sure that you have your personal reasons for loathing God, but Arik Sharon has no trouble in bringing his faith in God before the world.

Don't you think that Arik Sharon is a prime example of a "Shepherd of Israel" and could bring you and other atheist Israelis to faith in God and acceptance of the Torah?

no stevenk...i'm whats referred to as a "lost cause"....I grew up in an orthodox home...and chose the path that was right for me that included a jewish identity...i dont "loath god'...she just doesnt "speak to me"...i have developed my own philosophy of life that fits me. I have enough knowledge of judiaism to know what its all about and know about its various sects/cults/main stream and off stream variations. i can count as my friends and family orthadox, haridie, religious zionist, jews for jesus etc...the whole shebang....and I like my path..the more i am with them the more i read what you write (especially when it comes to jews and their souls as in your pathetic comment about my father and him selling is soul....)..the more i am confident that my path is the proper one....one that doesnt judge others for their beliefs, one that doesnt condem those that believe differently....

[SteveK]

no stevenk...i'm whats referred to as a "lost cause"....I grew up in an orthodox home...


pelsar,

How could you have grown up in an Orthodox home, when you just told me this:


pelsar:

.... its people like my father, his brothers that understood to be a jew does not mean being a passive flunky....believing that some god will protect us from persecution...

[pelsar]

pelsar,

How could you have grown up in an Orthodox home, when you just told me this:

my mom was religious and my dad wasnt...he agreed to a religous home when they got married.....he kept his views to himelf as we grew up...it was later in life that i was to learn his own personal views...

if you want more details for those who know detroit, we were members of the "young israel of oak woods synagogue"....rabbi gordon presiding (now living in jerusalem)

[minusthejihad]

my mom was religious and my dad wasnt...he agreed to a religous home when they got married.....he kept his views to himelf as we grew up...it was later in life that i was to learn his own personal views...

if you want more details for those who know detroit, we were members of the "young israel of oak woods synagogue"....rabbi gordon presiding (now living in jerusalem)

Right around the corner from where I grew up. My sister was married at Temple Emanu-El and I had my Bar Mitzvah at Temple Israel in WB.

[pelsar]

Right around the corner from where I grew up. My sister was married at Temple Emanu-El and I had my Bar Mitzvah at Temple Israel in WB.

i also went to Hebrew High School at 12mile and Lasher...took a bus 3 days a week after school.

near the end, i learned that after the bus dropped us off, we could start walking home back to oak park...took us, including break for pizza 1hr and 45 minutes..30minutes earlier than when the bus returning us back home would arrive......at that point i was just going through motions....respect for my mom.

[KettleWhistle]

try to differentiate between voting for a party or candidate vs a referendum...whereas both will have a large PR aspect to it..the concentration on the referendum would simply become a populist issue devoid of any real substance.....

I wasn't suggesting a refferendum on every single issue.

[pelsar]

I wasn't suggesting a refferendum on every single issue.

the problem still remains.... referendems become a PR issue more than anything else.

going in to court, you wouldnt take a "poll" from your neighborhood on what to do...would you?..no you would find the sleaziest, conniving lawyer possible to get you out of it (or someother educated specialist).

I doubt if the IRS orderd you for an audit, you would ask the elderly lady who cleans your house to be your advisor....

so how is it that when it comes to such critical life and death issues, which are very complicated, those issues your willing to have the nice house cleaner have a say?....i doubt she would even understand implications of the complicated matters?...ask her....

thats why representation is the cornerstone of democracies... acknowledgement that tough decisions require understanding of complicated issues .... and taking stands that may not be "popular"....thats what leaders do.....and thats why they are elected, to lead and make decisions....and you dont shoot them when you dont like the decisions that they make.

[Toga]

one that doesnt judge others for their beliefs, one that doesnt condem those that believe differently....


...the problem is while we don't judge anyone we are being judged. They want us either not be Jewish or be a little Jewish and they love us to death...

[pelsar]

...the problem is while we don't judge anyone we are being judged. They want us either not be Jewish or be a little Jewish and they love us to death...

or jewish in "their variation"...of which there are endless versions...just take a look at the various dress codes in mei sharim or in the westbank..or signify a different "sect/cult..following some rabbi and his own personal code....

its never ending...and they all KNOW whats right for the rest of us

[KettleWhistle]

going in to court, you wouldnt take a "poll" from your neighborhood on what to do...would you?..

No, but in the U.S. I would be relying on the jury, and not on a bunch of corrupt judges (most of whom are either former sheriffs, police offices, or procecutors) to come up with a verdict. And if you have a housing association, most of issues dealing with what's going on with the neighborhood will be decided by such a poll. We call that "democracy," as opposed to "authocracy."

[pelsar]

No, but in the U.S. I would be relying on the jury, and not on a bunch of corrupt judges (most of whom are either former sheriffs, police offices, or procecutors) to come up with a verdict. And if you have a housing association, most of issues dealing with what's going on with the neighborhood will be decided by such a poll. We call that "democracy," as opposed to "authocracy."


and committes exist in israel as well....such as housing committees...so its not all black and white....sometimes a specialist is needed and sometimes decisions can be made by the larger public (we call that voting)....or a subsection of that public. (localalities)

security issues are usually left up to the govt to decide...oslo/gaza were, more than anything else security issues....perhaps the US should have had a referendum before attacking afganistan?

there are no rules when and when NOT to have a referendum.....but it is generally accepted that representation is what democracy is all about and not govt by popular poll....if that is the case..you can shoot bush now, while the polls are down....(quick before they go up again!)

take a poll(referendum)....show that the "peoples will" go against the govt......and have new elections or if they dont have a referendum (or listen to the poll results) shoot or jail the presedent and his cabinet

that in a nutshell is what your proposing

[KettleWhistle]

There are no rules on when to have a refferendum, but there are conventions. And don't get me started with the committees. We all know how effective these are. And whom are you kidding with telling us that Oslo and Gaza, not Oslo/Gaza, were security issues?

[Toga]

or jewish in "their variation"...of which there are endless versions...just take a look at the various dress codes in mei sharim or in the westbank..or signify a different "sect/cult..following some rabbi and his own personal code....

its never ending...and they all KNOW whats right for the rest of us

Well...we may disagree with a particular rabbi or agree with him but that is not the issue. Our rabbis only preach to the Jews and that is it. Judaism does not allow us to mssionize. We don't try to convert anyone. We don't pursue anyone who is not Jewish. On the other hand, those who want to convert the Jews set up all kinds of treacherous traps for us in their never-ending quest to turn away the Jews from Judaism.

[Sheherazade]

Sorry, I'm not into debating with children. Their crimes are well known. Secret negotiations with the PLO were against Israeli law. Aside from the fact that more people died in post-Oslo Israel than in pre-Oslo. Enuf said. Grow up, then we can debate some more.


Do you honestly think that no other PM had secret negotiations with the PLO?
Just who is the child here?

[redcake]

Do you honestly think that no other PM had secret negotiations with the PLO?
Just who is the child here?

Which other PM before Rabin negotiated with the PLO ?

Maybe you know something we don't know, but looking at the timeline it makes it hard to speculate. It was illegal to meet with the PLO. Justto give you an example - when Israeli Leftists appeared on the same panel with PLO at a Columbia University seminar, they went out of their way to address each other indirectly through some charade. Several people, including a UN diplomat were fired when caught negotiating with PLO. We're talking about a group that had been unanimously banished from the region. Maybe there was some communication during the Lebanon days? What does it matter? Israel negotiates in secret with everyone. Always have. So it's possible.... but...

Rabin's the one who brought Arafat back, treated him with diplomacy, provided him with free banking, handed him money, handed him land, propped him up with a Peace Prize of all things, and pretended he wasn't a genocidal maniac. Can you name another PM that did anything even close?

[pelsar]

Rabin's the one who brought Arafat back, treated him with diplomacy, provided him with free banking, handed him money, handed him land, propped him up with a Peace Prize of all things, and pretended he wasn't a genocidal maniac. Can you name another PM that did anything even close?

Begin (gave the sinai back to an arab dictatoship for a psudo peace (probably more like a hunda)

sharon..gave the PA gaza, their own foreign policy, import/export via egypt and legitimacy in governing their own land mass

[pelsar]

And whom are you kidding with telling us that Oslo and Gaza, not Oslo/Gaza, were security issues?

whats the difference?....both were security issues...and security issues ( as in war) are not up for popular vote (referendem) at least as far as the "conventions go"

i still disagree with the contention that foreign policy and security issues are for the "people to decide" as in a referendum. Madison Avenu can sell us anything....so too with a referendum....the more serious the decision the more money will be spent on "advertising"....and since as i've shown above, the "people" can be swayed either way within a short time, that would make for a very unstable govt and foreign policy..not to mention a lot of dead PMs and MKs if we follow your version

[Leon]

Lets get back to the subject Abbas thanks Israeli Left

You know: 1. international Church/academic boycotts 2. IDFgenerals, officers, soldiers being threatened on war crimes charges in other countries, 3. Israel being dropped off the list of credits by the US state department for giving aid to hurricane Katrina victims (to appease Arabs - despite Israel also providing three cruise liner ships to temporaly house the victims) ---

all on the eve of and post disengagement period??

You, that all aint such a bad idea, I happen to like that. its a good learning curve -- especially for the likes of all the Ophras and Sharonbns. Time to wake up guys...whether it was disengagement or Oslo...not only did it fail to bring you security (both are security disasters), but they aint working wonders for Israel's international image.

Wake up!

[pelsar]

Lets get back to the subject Abbas thanks Israeli Left

You know: 1. international Church/academic boycotts 2. IDFgenerals, officers, soldiers being threatened on war crimes charges in other countries, 3. Israel being dropped off the list of credits by the US state department for giving aid to hurricane Katrina victims (to appease Arabs - despite Israel also providing three cruise liner ships to temporaly house the victims) ---

all on the eve of and post disengagement period??

You, that all aint such a bad idea, I happen to like that. its a good learning curve -- especially for the likes of all the Ophras and Sharonbns. Time to wake up guys...whether it was disengagement or Oslo...not only did it fail to bring you security (both are security disasters), but they aint working wonders for Israel's international image.

Wake up!

you dont get it....the disengagment wasnt done "for israelis image"...it was done to save our lives and the morals of our kids....and it clarified whos boss in this country...and it aint the rabbis

we woke up...thats why the change

[redcake]

Begin (gave the sinai back to an arab dictatoship for a psudo peace (probably more like a hunda)

sharon..gave the PA gaza, their own foreign policy, import/export via egypt and legitimacy in governing their own land mass

Egypt isn't the PLO. Returning the Sinai was a condition of a cease fire, and peace treaty, which have both been in effect for over 20 years. Begin was closing the door on several consequitive wars, where Rabin provided the opportunity for war, and literally armed the enemy.

Sharon followed up on the promises and diplomatic ties which were previously offered. Sharon's government didn't initiate it.

[redcake]

.and it clarified whos boss in this country...and it aint the rabbis

That sounds like it would have been really effective if the Rabbis had something to do with the suicide bombers, and long range missiles.

[pelsar]

Egypt isn't the PLO. Returning the Sinai was a condition of a cease fire, and peace treaty, which have both been in effect for over 20 years. Begin was closing the door on several consequitive wars, where Rabin provided the opportunity for war, and literally armed the enemy.

Sharon followed up on the promises and diplomatic ties which were previously offered. Sharon's government didn't initiate it.

egypts peace....is as only as good as the next dictator...a country which plays on TV the protocols of zion during the ramadan....that wont invite university lecturers to their universities....is not a "peaceful neighbor"...we call it hunda...they're just waiting for the oppertunity if nothing else changes.

Begin turned an operation (lebanon) into a war....

sharon initiated gaza...and could have stopped it easy enough...he chose to give gaza to the PA complete, a potential sanctuary for terrorists world wide...

[redcake]

We all know Sharon didn't initiate Gaza. It was already on the bargaining table. 88% of it had already been put in Palestinian hands by Rabin.

Egypts societal anti-semitism is all within the confines of a peace treaty. Furthermore, they were a soveriegn nation we were required to settle up with. How the hell is that a precedence for negotiating with an underground genocidal terrorist group hiding out in Tunisia ?

Look is you think Abbas had Israel's interest at heart, better then a Kahanist that's your choice, but let's not get funny on the basic facts here, because we all know them.

[pelsar]

We all know Sharon didn't initiate Gaza. It was already on the bargaining table. 88% of it had already been put in Palestinian hands by Rabin.

Egypts societal anti-semitism is all within the confines of a peace treaty. Furthermore, they were a soveriegn nation we were required to settle up with. How the hell is that a precedence for negotiating with an underground genocidal terrorist group hiding out in Tunisia ?

Look is you think Abbas had Israel's interest at heart, better then a Kahanist that's your choice, but let's not get funny on the basic facts here, because we all know them.

i trust neither a kahanist nor abbas...both are dangerous to israel...as is egypts anti semitism, which is govt sponsored..big deal it was in the peace treaty!...its still represents a threat...thats how it connects to the PLO...all the above threaten israel...and we werent "required" to settle anything..Begin chose to accept gaza in the same agreement.

Sharon..chose to give the PA gaza...and is choosing not to give back the westbank...what rabin did or didnt do is not a factor in sharons actions.....

funny you sound like your excusing egypts anti semetism as if its not a real threat (check into the Egyptian Army's tanks and F-16s and what their military structure are in the sinai if you think we were really at "peace with them"

and blaming rabin for sharons actions....

[Ophra]

......and blaming rabin for sharons actions....

Tisk .... they blame Rabin for everything ;) .... makes them feel better for celebrating his murder... I suppose it also relieves their guilt. :rolleyes:

[Leon]

you dont get it....the disengagment wasnt done "for israelis image"...it was done to save our lives and the morals of our kids....and it clarified whos boss in this country...and it aint the rabbis

we woke up...thats why the change


just like Oslo was done to save Israeli lives...you are appling allot of Jewish sense and allot of Jewish logic.


And yes, we very well know who is in charge here - after all it wasnt the Rabbis who brought in Arafat and the PLO from Tunis, armed them, trained them and gave them billions of dollars to murder tens of thousands of Jews.

And while you are at it -- dont forget to blame the Rabbis for global warming too.

[Leon]

Like I said -- its all a good learning curve.

[Ophra]

just like Oslo was done to save Israeli lives...you are appling allot of Jewish sense and allot of Jewish logic.


And yes, we very well know who is in charge here - after all it wasnt the Rabbis who brought in Arafat and the PLO from Tunis, armed them, trained them and gave them billions of dollars to murder tens of thousands of Jews.

And while you are at it -- dont forget to blame the Rabbis for global warming too.

...... and it wasn't the PLO that murdered Rabin ;)

[sharonbn]

you dont get it....the disengagment wasnt done "for israelis image"...it was done to save our lives and the morals of our kids....and it clarified whos boss in this country...and it aint the rabbis

we woke up...thats why the change
its a start, we only half opened our eyes.
when Israel reliases the futility of settlements in WB and withdraws from that region as well - then we can say we have woken up from the nightmare of the occupation.

[pelsar]

And while you are at it -- dont forget to blame the Rabbis for global warming too.

no i blame some of the rabbis for attempting to "take over israel" with their version of the religion...and for what they teach much of their students....igal amir being one of them...hilltopyouth being another example...intolerence, racism....

and i take it you werent around for intifada I...nor involved. Whether or not oslo was wise or not wont be known for years to come....much like the 6day wars results....which looking back with all its consequences remains debatable

[Leon]

...... and it wasn't the PLO that murdered Rabin ;)

what a great moral comparison - tens of thousands of Jews to the death of the very slime ball who pepetrated their destruction. and the very same slime ball who 50 years earlier murdered 18 Jewish men and women in cold blood.

Rabin was killed for that reason -- even though I regret his death and reject any sort of voilence. In Rabin's case, it turned a slime ball into a martyr.

[Ophra]

Like I said -- its all a good learning curve.

Depends on which learning curve you follow Leon.

Let's go back in time a little and see Israel at age 50 .

Here : http://www.economist.com/surveys/showsurvey.cfm?issue=19980425

"" .............. Where are Israel’s eastern borders? Must peace entail giving up the West Bank, the place where Judaism began? Does it require rebuilding a wall through the centre of Jerusalem, the seat of Zion and the city that Israeli governments of all stripes have declared eternally united? And beyond questions about the price of peace, there is also questioning about its durability: will territorial compromise bring an end to war or merely make the next one harder to win?

In striving to answer these questions, Israelis have discovered the extent of their own divisions. After the capture of the West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza in 1967, Israel’s most brilliant military victory, the country split into two evenly balanced camps. Labour and its political allies favoured some sort of territorial compromise so that the windfall of land might be traded for peace with the Arabs. The Likud block regarded the captured territory as part of Israel itself. This quarrel was always bitter, turning as it did on disagreements about religious and national destiny as well as security, but few Israelis doubted that it could eventually be resolved within the rules of the democratic system.

Now they are no longer so sure. When under Yitzhak Rabin Labour won a narrow electoral victory and began to cede land to Mr Arafat, Israel experienced the brief euphoria of peacemaking. But within 26 months of shaking Mr Arafat’s hand in Washington, Israel’s former war hero had been murdered by a fellow Israeli. More than two years on, the assassination continues to darken Israel’s mood. Israelis who trusted Rabin did not trust Shimon Peres, his hapless successor. In the general election of 1996, Mr Peres’s lyrical descriptions of a Middle East at peace seemed to strike voters as dangerously other-worldly. In his place, by a whisker, Israel elected the Likud’s untested young leader, the telegenic Binyamin (“Bibi”) Netanyahu, who has since come perilously close to destroying the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians—precisely what Rabin’s murderer wanted.

Even if the peace process limps forward, the wounds the murder inflicted will remain open. Rabin’s widow continues to blame Mr Netanyahu for having brewed an atmosphere in which the murder became possible. And on Israel’s nationalist-religious extreme there are people who claim openly that Rabin’s assassin did God’s good work. The late 1990s, in short, have revealed a new, dark side of Israel’s political culture. ""



10 years on Leon.... just 10 short years .... we will make Peace .. for us and for Yitzhak's dream.
Bibi will not be elected .
Religious Zionism will confine itself to within Israel proper .... and hopefully will shrivel up and die .

[Leon]

its a start, we only half opened our eyes.
when Israel reliases the futility of settlements in WB and withdraws from that region as well - then we can say we have woken up from the nightmare of the occupation.

so you are saying that, before the occupation, there was no nightmare and no security issues at all. One day the sadistic Israeli army simply decided to "occupy"
an "entire country"

and after the occupation it will be back to la, la, land.

Arab terrorists are certainly not going to be emboldended and strengthened -- just like Hezbollah was not emboldened or strengthened after the Lebanon withdrawal (that brought heaps of security to Israel).
Major Israeli population centres are not going to be within missile range.

[Leon]

no i blame some of the rabbis for attempting to "take over israel" with their version of the religion...and for what they teach much of their students....igal amir being one of them...hilltopyouth being another example...intolerence, racism....

what do they teach? Infidels thrown into the sea? and do they mention anything about the Dhimmis who can stay?

Dont worry, the left is very much in control -- they have been in control since day one and are still arming and funding Palestinian terrorists to murder more Jews.


and i take it you werent around for intifada I...nor involved. Whether or not oslo was wise or not wont be known for years to come....

right...

much like the 6day wars results....which looking back with all its consequences remains debatable

right....

Now I know where your coming from. Thanks for clarifying...esp with the six day war and how that "remains debatable"

of course at that time Nasser had all the time in the world to "debate"

[Mediocrates]

While I accept that everyone has breathed deep the paint fumes and they believe utterly the anti Israel line that maintains the root of all evil in the world is the Israeli occupation of Palestine, has it occured to anyone that this may not be a rational point of view? Has it occured to anyone that perhaps when there is no longer any occupation of the West Bank then there will be a new reason that Israel is the root of all evil?...Just sayin...

[sharonbn]

so you are saying that, before the occupation, there was no nightmare and no security issues at all. One day the sadistic Israeli army simply decided to "occupy"

I am saying people have short memories. Israel intention after the 67 war was for the occupied territories to serve as bargaining chip in the peace negotiations, not as new land to settle on. Israel's stance on the OT was (and still is) that the territories are not, for the most part, an integral part of the state of Israel.

but conquered land is hard to let go just because its the right thing to do. so Israel kept hanging to the territories, regardless if peace was offered or not. first for securty reasons, then, after likud took power, the OT became part of the greater Israel delusion.

Just like in Lebanon, once Israel occupied a piece of land, it had to be driven out by force.

[sharonbn]

has it occured to anyone that this may not be a rational point of view? Has it occured to anyone that perhaps when there is no longer any occupation of the West Bank then there will be a new reason that Israel is the root of all evil?...Just sayin...
still waiting for "new reason" for Lebanese to attack Israel...
oh wait... now they want to free themselves from Syria? how irrational of them...

[MGB8]

Well, that's leftist history for you.

There was NEVER any concensus on what to do with the land gained in the 67 war. The only extent to which there was any concensus was that Jerusalem should remain undivided (majority in Israel) and that some adjustment to the 67 borders was needed for security reasons (also majority). After that.... the country was, and is, very divided. Pre-Oslo, the idea of Greater Israel was about as strong as "land-for-peace."


Moreover, what's the comparison with Lebanon. When we left, we sacrificed many of our allies there to the pals. We never put a settlement in Lebanon, it was clearly only a military buffer zone. That makes it very different from Gaza and the WB, which are in part buffer zones, and in part, very much not.

Meanwhile, it was the Israeli retreat from Lebanon that INSPIRED the newest intifadah.

Your entire perspective is warped. "Driven out." The right thing to do (very very debatable). You sound just like the anti-Israel partisans. This is why the vast majority of Israel's body politic does not trust the left... what does labour have now, less than 30%, and Meretz just a fringe group. Its because you ideologically side with the enemies of Israel.

Shinui is the new "Zionist left" - the old left has become dominated by anti/post Zionists, and/or cowards.

[MGB8]

still waiting for "new reason" for Lebanese to attack Israel...
oh wait... now they want to free themselves from Syria? how irrational of them...

Um, Sharonbn, you do know that Lebanese fighters are moving into Gaza as we speak, and that they have and do (albeit occasionally) fire into Israel and attack patrols, shell towns, etc.

You rely on them needing a reason to attack Israel... they don't need one - reasons are not like the nuclear bomb, they are very easy to create.

[pelsar]

While I accept that everyone has breathed deep the paint fumes and they believe utterly the anti Israel line that maintains the root of all evil in the world is the Israeli occupation of Palestine, has it occured to anyone that this may not be a rational point of view? Has it occured to anyone that perhaps when there is no longer any occupation of the West Bank then there will be a new reason that Israel is the root of all evil?...Just sayin...

your sprouting the usual BS about "the left thinks the occupation is the root of the conflict"...open your eyes and learn to differentiate between israeli left and right....from the posts here, those in america have trouble with it..

let clarify some points.....we won the 6 day war....that was great....the occupation, however, for those who dont get it, are not part of israel..never has been, not legally and are destroying the morals of our the israel kid...telling a 60yr old women, held up by her grandkids, whos been waiting in line for 5 hours that she has to turn around and go back where she came from...that she cant go home....does something to an 19yr old kid.

as it does to a 35 yr old man. and when you do this straight for 30 days 60 days, 2 years....it changes you...and not for the better......or when you see young kids, 16 year old girls throw rocks at old men.....and that is normal...and it doesnt phase you...then something has changed....and its not for the better.

i doubt those who have never been (there are volunteer programs however..for those who dare)..will ever understand, but for most of us...we know its time to get out.
__________________________________
Leon.....rabin was killed because some slime rabbi(s) taught some niave kid that he had the right to kill anyone he felt was endaging his fantasy

but enough of the "arm chair general stuff"...you think we should hang on the territories...then get your a$$ overhere and volunteer...great american saying: put up or shut up.

[pelsar]

Um, Sharonbn, you do know that Lebanese fighters are moving into Gaza as we speak, and that they have and do (albeit occasionally) fire into Israel and attack patrols, shell towns, etc.

You rely on them needing a reason to attack Israel... they don't need one - reasons are not like the nuclear bomb, they are very easy to create.

of course we'll get fired upon from gaza....we all know that...so?...whats the surprise

[Mediocrates]

still waiting for "new reason" for Lebanese to attack Israel...
oh wait... now they want to free themselves from Syria? how irrational of them...

Well that's hard to say. Of course you understand that 'Lebanon' generally did not attack you. Palestinians and Hezbollah did. And as far as I can tell they've never officially stopped that. And your leaving certainly hasn't caused them to ratchet down their rhetoric or the that of the people supporting them either.

I'm sure right now in Lebanon, Hezbollah and co. has bigger problems to overcome than hitching their star to the blame-Israel-for-everything train. Among them, holding on to power in Syria w/o a bloody war. But rest assured they'll come back and demand not only Golan but as much of Israel as they think they can grab when it becomes clear that they are the defacto power there.

Anyway, the point is, imagining that the whole problem is irreducibly simple to the point of Jews Out Peace In may not be the whole picture. Oh I'm with you, walk away from the West Bank, toss the keys over your shoulder. Throw in half of Jerusalem in the bargain. But that's not likely to make everything better either. I'm just wondering what the Israeli response to that will be?

[sharonbn]

There was NEVER any concensus on what to do with the land gained in the 67 war. The only extent to which there was any concensus was that Jerusalem should remain undivided (majority in Israel) and that some adjustment to the 67 borders was needed for security reasons (also majority). After that.... the country was, and is, very divided. Pre-Oslo, the idea of Greater Israel was about as strong as "land-for-peace."
The concensus among all Israel gov't was that the Gaza strip and west bank are not part of Israel. That is why they were never annexed.

Moreover, what's the comparison with Lebanon. When we left, we sacrificed many of our allies there to the pals. We never put a settlement in Lebanon, it was clearly only a military buffer zone. That makes it very different from Gaza and the WB, which are in part buffer zones, and in part, very much not.
That is exactly what I am talking about.
The first settlement in west bank was founded in 1974 (against gov't policy, btw). For the first ten years, until 77, The gov't **official** stance regarding the territories was that they are held only until a peace treaty is signed.
With the gaza strip its even more stark: the first settlement there was founded in 1982. before that, no Jew considered the GS anything but buffer zone.

Regarding Lebanon, the comparison is that Israel does not seem to realize when its time to withdraw, until it is "reminded" by the native population. there was **absolutely** no reason to remain in south Lebanon after PLO was expelled to Tunis. But Israel is governed by former generals. former generals don't like to withdraw. its a sign of weakens or whatever, so they invented a reason for IDF to stay, and stayed until the casualties mounted up...

Meanwhile, it was the Israeli retreat from Lebanon that INSPIRED the newest intifadah.
Exactly my point. If you don't withdraw by your own initiative, then you teach your enemy that he has to drive you out by force. The Lebanon case taught the Pals that Israel will not withdraw by its own merit.

Your entire perspective is warped. "Driven out." The right thing to do (very very debatable). You sound just like the anti-Israel partisans. This is why the vast majority of Israel's body politic does not trust the left... what does labour have now, less than 30%, and Meretz just a fringe group. Its because you ideologically side with the enemies of Israel.
Yes, the visionary never gets the credit for being ahead of the times.
Who remembers that Mitzna's plan was to withdraw from Gaza? Everybody credits Sharon, as if he invented this move.
The fact remains: however unpopular the left is, each and every right wing leader who becomes PM ends up implementing left plans.

That's fine with me, I don't mind the scorns, as long as they end up doing the right thing.

[sharonbn]

Um, Sharonbn, you do know that Lebanese fighters are moving into Gaza as we speak, and that they have and do (albeit occasionally) fire into Israel and attack patrols, shell towns, etc.
Please show the link to the news item that tells of movement of Lebanese fighters into GS.

[pelsar]

Meanwhile, it was the Israeli retreat from Lebanon that INSPIRED the newest intifadah.

Your entire perspective is warped. "Driven out." The right thing to do (very very debatable). You sound just like the anti-Israel partisans. This is why the vast majority of Israel's body politic does not trust the left...

Shinui is the new "Zionist left" - the old left has become dominated by anti/post Zionists, and/or cowards.

and leaving weekly an israeli kid dead in lebanon for what has become very obvious for no good reason also wasnt very good either for us......every week another israeli killed......we should have left much earlier..or better yet stuck to the original plan.

now i get it, shinui is now "left" since there is no other left".. perhaps the papers in english have poor translations, but in hebrew, shinui is middle of the road neither left nor right.

do us israelis a favor and stop with the "coward" ....if and when you actually have a weapon in your hand, and actually do front line duty, then and only then will you have any right to talk about the "left as cowards"..but if you actually did do that front line duty and no doubt would have those very same "leftest" watching your back...you would probably keep your mouth shut and have learned somthing....so in the meantime....about "cowards"....they can be defined as those who talk and while letting others do the dangerous stuff.....would that perhaps relate to you?

[sharonbn]

Well that's hard to say. Of course you understand that 'Lebanon' generally did not attack you. Palestinians and Hezbollah did. And as far as I can tell they've never officially stopped that. And your leaving certainly hasn't caused them to ratchet down their rhetoric or the that of the people supporting them either.
There is litle to no support for Hizbuallah provocations against Israel.
Focus in Lebanon is now on Syrian occupation.

I'm sure right now in Lebanon, Hezbollah and co. has bigger problems to overcome than hitching their star to the blame-Israel-for-everything train. Among them, holding on to power in Syria w/o a bloody war. But rest assured they'll come back and demand not only Golan but as much of Israel as they think they can grab when it becomes clear that they are the defacto power there.
"rest assured"? I'm glad you are sure you know the future.
I rest assured that Israel will withdraw from Golan heights as part of the future peace treaty with Syria.

Anyway, the point is, imagining that the whole problem is irreducibly simple to the point of Jews Out Peace In may not be the whole picture. Oh I'm with you, walk away from the West Bank, toss the keys over your shoulder. Throw in half of Jerusalem in the bargain. But that's not likely to make everything better either. I'm just wondering what the Israeli response to that will be?
Very well, so we agree on what Israel should do. rest assured that it will happen.

[Mediocrates]

Well it's fine for me to ignore the future. Probably a little more perilous for you. I see a million miserable Gazans on the west teeming over the lines into Israel and Egypt causing an Egyptian backlash that leads to them invading you. I don't think it will be an organized affair like the jihadtifada, probably more like a complete breakdown of order. I think it will result in a mass of expulsion of Gazans from Gaza, by the Egyptian army and they will be pushed into Israel, probably into 'camps' in the Negev as a result. That would be a wonderful time for coordinated actions against Jewish civilians in the West Bank or perhaps even an invasion of the West Bank by the Syrian army or Hezbollah units resulting in more or less the same kind of civilian humanitarian crisis as the Gazans. Ergo more Palestinians in Israel and the beginning of the end for you. At least that's how I'd plan it.

At any rate what do you think an Israeli response to an escalation of violence against Israelis in the West Bank or Israel be? Not a tactical response, send in some Apaches, etc. but a strategic plan? There are after all limits to how fast you can make a fifth of a million Jews run for their lives, no? Even though it's common knowledge that the Nabka consisted of every grandma in Israel personally expelling 1500 Arabs at the point of her cane, all in about 2 days. I think there's some mythology in that. I think Gaza was a wonderful example of not fleeing under fire because of the force structure applied to the size of the problem. You don't have enough IDF people to apply the same plan to the West Bank or if you did you'd leave your country naked to attack elsewhere.

So it's kind of damned if you do damned if you don't it seems.

[redcake]

WHY do you want Abbas to like you?

All I'm hearing is why you dislike Rabbis, Rabin Haters, Egypt, factions of Israel's government.... it's nothing new, and you're all entitled to sound like a Tikkun subscriber if you want to...

but what does that have to do with WHY you would even want Abbas to like you?

[pelsar]

WHY do you want Abbas to like you?

All I'm hearing is why you dislike Rabbis, Rabin Haters, Egypt, factions of Israel's government.... it's nothing new, and you're all entitled to sound like a Tikkun subscriber if you want to...

but what does that have to do with WHY you would even want Abbas to like you?

who gives a sh¡t about abbas?

(i just dont like racists.....i'm fine with everybody else)

[Mediocrates]

very clever - 'j' superscript?

[redcake]

The title of this post is "Abbas thanks the Israeli Left"... and the implication is that Abbas liking you is somehow a good thing, or an indication that the Gaza pullout was in fact, a good idea.

So if you're posting in this thread, and you're supporting that argument.... I'd like to know WHY you take satisfaction in him thanking you !?!?!?!?

[pelsar]

very clever - 'j' superscript?

i've been waiting for someone to notice that....its about time!

[pelsar]

The title of this post is "Abbas thanks the Israeli Left"... and the implication is that Abbas liking you is somehow a good thing, or an indication that the Gaza pullout was in fact, a good idea.

So if you're posting in this thread, and you're supporting that argument.... I'd like to know WHY you take satisfaction in him thanking you !?!?!?!?

sometimes discussions "change"..if abbas wants to thank the stray cat in my street he can....its just doesnt mean anything to me...pulling out of gaza in my opinion was a good thing for lots of reasons...however the middle east being what it is, the real implications wont be known for several years, depending upon what the palestenians do with it, and that no one can say since too many players are now just emerging that are going to have an impact.

In the meantime, my last reserve duty was cancelled since for the last several years we've been stationed in gaza, and we've lost some guys...so from my point of view that at least is a good start.....

abbas who?

[MGB8]

Shinui is center left... if you don't realize that, you are blind.

Meanwhile, are you a police officer or a fireman? If not, I never ever want to hear you comment on police or fire strategy again. More than that, if there is ever a fire fighter who advocates not having any wooden buildings because clearly it will ignite, you cannot comment on the fact that this fire-fighter is beholden to fear.

The Israeli left is very much inspired by cowardice. Not of the sort that is unwilling to serve - plenty serve (although there are more and more refuseniks.) Its the cowardice and defeatism that believes that there is no way for Israel to fight and win. Its the cowardice of willing to risk incredible weakness in the vain hope that the enemy "no longer has a reason" to hate Israel. Maybe fear is better than cowardice, as it is more specific.

There are certainly reasons to oppose occupation - its effect on Israeli soldiers in the position of power over pal Arabs, demographics, the belief that the Pal deserve their own sovereign entity. But the left goes far beyond these things. It cheers the Arabs, either ignoring their hatred of Israel or in spite of it! It roots against Israel. It is no longer a "zionist" (read: nationalist) left.

Ps - you are very wrong in terms of the casualty figures in Lebanon, pure demogogary shtick http://www.meforum.org/article/70....

pps... I'm in the US. I've been in violence. If needed to serve, either here or in Israel, I would go - but I'm not going to throw away everything I have gained here for the privilege, either in the US or in Israel. Being part of mandatory consription does not make a person brave. Even surviving war doesn't make a person brave - there are cowardly soldiers. And then there are soldiers who are strong and brave enough to hold up in a battle, but unwilling to do so except in the most extreme circumstances, even at the expense of their friends and neighbors.


and leaving weekly an israeli kid dead in lebanon for what has become very obvious for no good reason also wasnt very good either for us......every week another israeli killed......we should have left much earlier..or better yet stuck to the original plan.

now i get it, shinui is now "left" since there is no other left".. perhaps the papers in english have poor translations, but in hebrew, shinui is middle of the road neither left nor right.

do us israelis a favor and stop with the "coward" ....if and when you actually have a weapon in your hand, and actually do front line duty, then and only then will you have any right to talk about the "left as cowards"..but if you actually did do that front line duty and no doubt would have those very same "leftest" watching your back...you would probably keep your mouth shut and have learned somthing....so in the meantime....about "cowards"....they can be defined as those who talk and while letting others do the dangerous stuff.....would that perhaps relate to you?

[pelsar]

Shinui is center left... if you don't realize that, you are blind.

guess you should tell that to shinuis voters, many came from the right....its actually a liberal party as in libertarian

Meanwhile, are you a police officer or a fireman? If not, I never ever want to hear you comment on police or fire strategy again. More than that, if there is ever a fire fighter who advocates not having any wooden buildings because clearly it will ignite, you cannot comment on the fact that this fire-fighter is beholden to fear.

i may comment on the police etc...but you wont find me calling them cowards simply because i disagree with them.....and i will listen when they have something to explain, knowing full well that i have no experience in what they do and they will have a lot more information and its implications than i can ever hope to gain by mere reading


The Israeli left is very much inspired by cowardice. Not of the sort that is unwilling to serve - plenty serve (although there are more and more refuseniks.) Its the cowardice and defeatism that believes that there is no way for Israel to fight and win.

i would question if you've every actually talked to one on the left in a discussion to actually hear what they believe...from what i've seen of your writings and what you've just wrote....you never have....

It cheers the Arabs, either ignoring their hatred of Israel or in spite of it! It roots against Israel. It is no longer a "zionist" (read: nationalist) left.

i've never met a single israeli who "cheers the arabs"...you must be talking about the neturei karta (again what left are you talking about?-arab parties?)

Ps - you are very wrong in terms of the casualty figures in Lebanon, pure demogogary shtick http://www.meforum.org/article/70....

and i was wrong..i was going by memory.....(I probably included the wounded as well in what i remembered...)

I never said all soldiers are brave...(all israeli combat soldiers are volunteers)...my comment was based on your calling many of them cowards simply because they believe differently...and they dont deserve such a lable...its both insulting and simply wrong

[Mediocrates]

It may or may not be important what Abbas says. He might not have the power to effect much of anything. He may wind up being the Palestinian Karzai and that is not a wonderful thing. Today if you go to Kabul you'll find all the westerners falling over themselves at the good fortune of the Afghanis. But the country really isn't a country in the sense we mean it. It's really a loose confederacy of warlords. The warlords really don't form a government that works in any single way with Karzai at the top. Karzai is more the mayor of Kabul and Kabul serves as the entry point for foreign aid and capital that is disbursed to the warlords. But once you leave Kabul it's not under any central control and you would find yourself subject to whatever that warlord or clan chief wants from you, as a foreigner. I suspect that Abbas will become the Palestinian Karzai, a familiar face that western states send money and aid to where it is spread around as baksheesh to the various factions, gangs, movements and such. Abbas himself may have very little direct control over anything that goes on inside the Palestinian organzations. Instead his role will be to funnel money and aid and leave all the local groups to do whatever they wish, with broad independence. There may be 30,000 PLO police or something like that but that, like almost all Arab armies is a made up number. Mostly, the army, the police etc are simply a way to give people jobs, usually the friends and family of people who support you in some way. The actual function of the army or police is taken up by small 'security services' that specialize in terror, kidnapping, blackmail, torture against all the other Palestinians. Every Arab state has its own Republican Guard which is not really an army but a civil repression force that keeps the king enthroned.

The second point is that Abbas' statements are meant to drive a wedge between the those who support his direction in Israel and those who do not. What better way?

[pelsar]

i tend to agree with what you wrote...nor do i really have any other expectations for this "palestenain state'...nor will anybody really care (all those "internationals who care so much for the poor palestenain)...and no doubt the older palestenians who worked in israel pre intifada I will long for those days.....

but abbas wont be able to drive a wedge.....he doesnt have that influence here...anyway once the first kassam/mortor falls from gaza any sharade of "control" will go flying out the door.......and our looney left?...every democracy has them, they have little influence and are few in numbers.....not really a factor in israeli politics or life

[Mediocrates]

But you see that's the problem. Everyone thinks they'll be able to declare victory and go home. They believe that this will be some kind fo reality check and 'everyone' will suddenly have the scales fall from their eyes and see the Palestinians for what they are. Which is cute but it's insane. No one who rabidly supports the Palestinians today is going to sit back and watch them fall flat on their faces and do nothing. They will help supply more and more pressure to Israel to more or less capitulate to provide money, infrastructure to open borders to do any number of other things. Look, even now we're no longer even debating the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead we're arguing about good or bad it appears to be. Hamas WILL takeover Gaza, it WILL have major role in the PLO/PLC, it WILL likely 'elect' the next Palestinian PM.

Do you think Hamas is going to actually run a modern state? Do you believe they even know how let alone want to? Let's fae facts, there isn't going to be a Palestinian civil war. No one can or will stand up to them and all we're waiting for is some stupid election so we can pretend there's nothing to worry about. Ok, let's not worry about it, there's little I'm reasonably sure that Hamas leading the Palestinians, a Hamas with a seat at the UN will execute on the Miserable Palestinians Plan version 2. That's where they continue to let Palestinians fester in 'camps' in order to effect a crisis.

[pelsar]

But you see that's the problem. Everyone thinks they'll be able to declare victory and go home. They believe that this will be some kind fo reality check and 'everyone' will suddenly have the scales fall from their eyes and see the Palestinians for what they are. Which is cute but it's insane. No one who rabidly supports the Palestinians today is going to sit back and watch them fall flat on their faces and do nothing. They will help supply more and more pressure to Israel to more or less capitulate to provide money, infrastructure to open borders to do any number of other things. Look, even now we're no longer even debating the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead we're arguing about good or bad it appears to be. Hamas WILL takeover Gaza, it WILL have major role in the PLO/PLC, it WILL likely 'elect' the next Palestinian PM.

Do you think Hamas is going to actually run a modern state? Do you believe they even know how let alone want to? Let's fae facts, there isn't going to be a Palestinian civil war. No one can or will stand up to them and all we're waiting for is some stupid election so we can pretend there's nothing to worry about. Ok, let's not worry about it, there's little I'm reasonably sure that Hamas leading the Palestinians, a Hamas with a seat at the UN will execute on the Miserable Palestinians Plan version 2. That's where they continue to let Palestinians fester in 'camps' in order to effect a crisis.

no...I dont believe that "the world will see them for what they are"..when sudan 2 opens up for business. (or iran 2).....no matter what they do over there we can overrun and flatten them if need be.

its easier to fight when the enemy is in front of you then when the enemy is all around you (kfar drom)....its better for moral when your back is secure and your not constantly doing 360's wondering where the bullet is going to come from. Its far better for our kids and me, to look through a scope while some palestenains climb a fence and then shoot, vs 10 conversations back and forth discussing what their ages might be and which direction they're going....and if their lost. (i knew one tough paratrooper who after shooting at some kids....never got over the situation....)

i dont, nor do i want anybody to watch over people who wait in line for 5 hours in the sun...and then have to send some back home...whatever his story is..because some will be true......to do that, one learns to turn off your emotions, and i dont want that for my kids...they will do that to their own.

and i dont want my kids to learn that its ok to rule other people, treat them like dirt, do whatever we want with them because we "have no choice"...we always have choices

its not about the world, its not about the palsetenians....its about us. I want my enemy in front of me with a minimum of moral conflicts. Moral conflicts give rise to confusion in the ranks and division. Which is why the 6 day war, yom kippur were "simple'...vs lebanon and intifada I

i dont want to talk to those who want to eliminate me...i want to shoot them....and for that i need them on the other side of the border...not working as my gardner.

[redcake]

The problem is that Rabin did talk to someone who wanted to eliminate him. Arafat. Now Sharon is doing the same thing. The leaders you're defending. So they're doing it for you.

There was no "moral conflict" though!
Arabs didn't have running water, or electricity until Israel came along. Checkpoints sound like hell, but you think living in a Hamas State is going to be an improvement? No, you just don't want to be involved. Out of sight out of mind, right? We can expect the border situation is going to be like the Texas-Mexico border only armed and hostile.

[pelsar]

The problem is that Rabin did talk to someone who wanted to eliminate him. Arafat. Now Sharon is doing the same thing. The leaders you're defending. So they're doing it for you.

There was no "moral conflict" though!
Arabs didn't have running water, or electricity until Israel came along. Checkpoints sound like hell, but you think living in a Hamas State is going to be an improvement? No, you just don't want to be involved. Out of sight out of mind, right? We can expect the border situation is going to be like the Texas-Mexico border only armed and hostile.

whats hard to understand....living next to a hamas state will be a helluva lot better than living within one, which i believe is what your suggesting.....thats right i dont want to be involved with them....and not out of sight....just farther away and seen through my telescopic sight.

texas-mexican border armed and hostile?..sounds good to me!..thats my kind of border, with my back protected, my kids going to school without an armed escort..the kind we have up north with lebanon and syria and with egypt...and the enemy right infront of me..doing all they can to get by me...which they wont.

what is this about the arabs not having running water or whatever we did for them..I DONT GIVE A SH¡T! and neither do they!

Sharons doing just fine. he can talk as long as he likes and with whomever as long he does what has to be done...thats why gaza worked..what he did was good for us..and thats all what counts

and btw I AM FUKING INVOLVED...upto my Kazoo far more than most people

[Ophra]

Sharons doing just fine. he can talk as long as he likes and with whomever as long he does what has to be done...thats why gaza worked..what he did was good for us..and thats all what counts

Amen.

[pelsar]

The Israeli left is very much inspired by cowardice. Not of the sort that is unwilling to serve - plenty serve (although there are more and more refuseniks.) Its the cowardice and defeatism that believes that there is no way for Israel to fight and win. Its the cowardice of willing to risk incredible weakness in the vain hope that the enemy "no longer has a reason" to hate Israel. Maybe fear is better than cowardice, as it is more specific.

It cheers the Arabs, either ignoring their hatred of Israel or in spite of it! It roots against Israel. It is no longer a "zionist" (read: nationalist) left.

the more i thought about this the more i realized its out of ignorence or a need to demonize those you disagree with....probably the latter.....instead of being able to listen and perhaps respect those you disagree with...you "call them names".....sort of like the "cowards way out.

those on the left are hardly "cowards"....for many they are going against the concensus in israel for their beliefs...hardly a cowards way out. Many of them simply believe differently....why does their belief make the "cowards"...it doesnt. They are not "fearful"...afraid of fighting, afraid of defeat....They've seen what the occupation has done to them, their kids and they believe that there is a better way.

hatred of israel?....what are you talking about? what "left"....be a little more definitive in your "left"....is that the far looney left of anarchists?...or are you talking mertz/labor left...with quite a few combat officers/soldiers who hardly "hate israel" (be kind of strange doing reserve duty as a volunteer, risking your life for the settlers while at the same time hating your country and those same settlers....is that what your suggesting? because i know quite a few of them. Isnt a definition of nationalism risking your life for your country?)

why dont you clarify your definitions....you just declared, as far as i understand, a very large part of the population of israel and a large amount of reserve combat soldiers as "haters of their own country"...boy would they be surprised to hear that.

[redcake]

Quit with the swearing and grow up. I know it's fun to say bad words, but I think you can communicate and make a point within the confines of this particular message boards restrictions.

whats hard to understand....living next to a hamas state will be a helluva lot better than living within one, which i believe is what your suggesting.

No, you read that wrong, but what else is new? I'm saying if you're so worried about the checkpoints, and grandmothers, then you wouldn't want them living in a Hamas State either. See, I don't buy into the hype that Israel was oppressing the poor Palestinians...and I know the reality is Israel was the closest exposure to civilization they had.


thats why gaza worked..what he did was good for us

A little presumptious.

[pelsar]

No, you read that wrong, but what else is new? I'm saying if you're so worried about the checkpoints, and grandmothers, then you wouldn't want them living in a Hamas State either. See, I don't buy into the hype that Israel was oppressing the poor Palestinians...and I know the reality is Israel was the closest exposure to civilization they had. .

you dont get it...i dont care about the palestenians, neither do most israselis...i care about israelis.....telling an old palestenain lady that she cant see her grandkids affects the israeli who is doing it.....talk to them...better yet ask me.

but again....i repeat...you would have to be here and to do it, if you did...it wouldnt be a problem of misunderstanding, it would be clear.

perhaps instead of trying so hard to prove something...it would more interesting to listen to those who have actually been involved and have a bit more information about what is actually going on.

the part of giving the "civiliazation" means nothing to them or us..waste of bandwidth

oh and were oppressing them..unless you think barging into a house at 3:00 am waking everybody up, searching the house and then leaving not oppression...closing down a whole village for a week not opression...i could go on an on...whether or not you agree to keeping or not keeping the westbank is not relevant.just dont kid yourself...were oppressing them in countless ways.

but i repeat myself....if you've never been perhaps you should ask?..because its pretty obviouse within the first 30 minutes of reserve service what were doing to them.

[sharonbn]

Please show the link to the news item that tells of movement of Lebanese fighters into GS.
now that we can establish that no Lebanese fighters are moving into Gaza, perhaps we can also agree that Israel should have withdrawan from Lebanon a long time ago, and the Lebanese in fact liberated Lebanon from Israeli occupation, and by this process taught the Pals they have to do the same, otherwise they will get nothing.

[sharonbn]

Well it's fine for me to ignore the future. Probably a little more perilous for you.
its one thing to not ignore the future, its another to tell the future.
so far, Lebanese did not find a "new reason" for attacking Israel, and Lebanese fighters are not pouring into Gaza.
Israel should be prepared to defend its northern borders, as with all borders. This security requirement does not spell occupation of south Lebanon.

The same with Gaza strip and west Bank. Both these regions are not part of the state of Israel and the only eason to hold them should be security (not residence.) Israel should and can defend itself from within its borders.

I see a million miserable Gazans on the west teeming over the lines into Israel and Egypt causing an Egyptian backlash that leads to them invading you.
The million miserable Gazans existed when Israel was there also. If they try to invade Israel, IDF will know how to stop them. That hypothetical scenario should does not negate the necessity and correctness of the pull out, nor does it impact the necessity to withdraw from west bank.

Like I said, hypothetical scenarios is what you use to prepare for the future, it should not deter you from acting in a direction that you believe is correct and fulfillf your goals. and if you ask me again what are my goals... please... scroll up...

I don't think it will be an organized affair like the jihadtifada, probably more like a complete breakdown of order. I think it will result in a mass of expulsion of Gazans from Gaza, by the Egyptian army and they will be pushed into Israel, probably into 'camps' in the Negev as a result. That would be a wonderful time for coordinated actions against Jewish civilians in the West Bank or perhaps even an invasion of the West Bank by the Syrian army or Hezbollah units resulting in more or less the same kind of civilian humanitarian crisis as the Gazans. Ergo more Palestinians in Israel and the beginning of the end for you.

gazan camps in the negev?? Syrian invasion of Israel?? really?? wow and I was called delusional... this is not even a hypothetical scenario. this is pure 100% sci fi fantasy, not a very credible one either.
for one: Egypt is more clever than Israel and don't want to control Gaza. two, Syria is at its weakest point in decades and will not attempt any agressive move against Israel. to remind you, following Hezbollah provocations in 01 and 02 Israel attacked Syrian posts. the message was received in Damascus.

At least that's how I'd plan it.
well then I have to say thank god you're in no position to make decisions. You're plan will spell thousand of Israeli, Pal, Syrian and Egyptian casualties, the total destruction of the Syrian armed forces, oh and one more thing: Israeli withdrawal from west bank, completion of the defense wall, and seal of border passes.

At any rate what do you think an Israeli response to an escalation of violence against Israelis in the West Bank or Israel be? Not a tactical response, send in some Apaches, etc. but a strategic plan?
The strategic plan is obvious (to me): withdrawal from west bank, consolidation of settlements into blocks near the border, completion of the defense wall around these blocks. the defense wall has proven its effectiveness against terror attack attempts. Together with tight army presence, it should so fine in repelling terrorists. another part of the plan is int'l pressure on PA to exercise its power to stop terror orgs, coupled with carrot and sticks of financial aid and financial sanctions.

[redcake]

perhaps instead of trying so hard to prove something...it would more interesting to listen to those who have actually been involved and have a bit more information about what is actually going on.

Unfortunately, you don't represent yourself as being that informed. You haven't shared any anecdotes unless you're trotting them out like some secret trump card. We're just not as enamored with authority, or the mystique of the IDF as you are, maybe. You're looking for the type of interaction that only comes from the exchange of factual information, not BS and word play. It doesn't seem like you read these posts before you respond.


.just dont kid yourself...were oppressing them in countless ways.

So let me get this straight, aren't you pretty much saying that by denying them the basic ammenities they wouldn't even have if it weren't for Israel - Israel is oppressing them? See this is where you're logic is screwed, because the people oppressing them are the PA, and Hamas, and the Arab League....they're the ones who have militarized every nook and cranny of these towns, and denied them freedoms far beyond checkpoints. The blaming Israel game (which you partake in, and most of us would liken to a Leftist attitude) doesn't do stitch to help these Palestinians. Oh right, but you don't really care about Palestinians anyway, you just like to play empathetic for the conveniant purposes of blaming Israel. That's what you've said pretty much.

[Ophra]

you just like to play empathetic for the conveniant purposes of blaming Israel. That's what you've said pretty much.

Uh uh redcake ... that's what you do .

There is not one word that pelsar has said on here that I disagree with.

Funny how it's us that are the Israelis trying to tell you how it is ... but you guys know better every time :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Where are all the Right wing Israelis with their side of things ????

Sharon trounces Bibi in poll.....

Survey published by Yedioth Ahronot Thursday shows a party headed by prime minister would win 36 Knesset seats while a Netanyahu-led Likud would only win 14. :)

[pelsar]

Uh uh redcake ... that's what you do .

There is not one word that pelsar has said on here that I disagree with.

Funny how it's us that are the Israelis trying to tell you how it is ... but you guys know better every time

i noticed that too...those that dont live here, havent experienced neither the bombings nor the military presence in gaza or the westbank....they seem to think that they actually know whats going on..really weird. Usually those who dont know attempt to learn from those who have actually experienced the environment.

kind of like a life long bachelor giving marital advice....they havent a clue.

[pelsar]

So let me get this straight, aren't you pretty much saying that by denying them the basic ammenities they wouldn't even have if it weren't for Israel - Israel is oppressing them? See this is where you're logic is screwed, because the people oppressing them are the PA, and Hamas, and the Arab League....they're the ones who have militarized every nook and cranny of these towns, and denied them freedoms far beyond checkpoints. The blaming Israel game (which you partake in, and most of us would liken to a Leftist attitude) doesn't do stitch to help these Palestinians. Oh right, but you don't really care about Palestinians anyway, you just like to play empathetic for the conveniant purposes of blaming Israel. That's what you've said pretty much.

perhaps you have a hard time understanding what oppression is...is that the problem?

btw, syria, lebanon, jordan, egypt, saudi arabia all have basic ammenities...so too do the palestenains...so i really dont know what your talking about...israelis giving them basic ammenities..thats all they've got, just like their brethren in the region...so?

Of course we oppressing them....its not a matter of blaming israel...its a mere fact....or what would you call putting up checkposts and walls to seperate villages?...taking over their homes, putting the families in a single room since the IDF needs the house as an outpost?...requiring passes to go from place to place?, closing down whole villages, stores etc?

were doing it, not the PA and not every nook and cranny is militarized....nor are they denied movement by their own...its far more complicated than that.... but then you wouldnt know would you...hint..if you dont know, instead of making up stuff try asking.

its hard to trade factual information when you make up stuff like that....

or deny were oppressing them...what would you call entering a house at 2:00am turning it upside down, finding nothing and then leaving?

sending granddad back to his village cause his permit is out of date...so he cant go to the hospital....closing off a villages roads, having a curfew, grabbing some kids and then leaving?

whether or not there are security needs there or not is not the point...we are oppressing them....its call a simple fact.

[KettleWhistle]

i noticed that too...those that dont live here, havent experienced neither the bombings nor the military presence in gaza or the westbank....they seem to think that they actually know whats going on..really weird. Usually those who dont know attempt to learn from those who have actually experienced the environment.

kind of like a life long bachelor giving marital advice....they havent a clue.

HAHAHAHAHA... I really just can't stop laughing, LOL!

So running around with a gun taught you all there is to know about what's going on there? LOL So far your kind, the one that sympatizes with the enemy, only managed to give them land, weapons, money, gas, water, and electricity, all of which resulted in well over a thousands of Jewish deaths. So do you have any expertise in actually saving lives? Any expertise in kicking the enemy population out of our native land, as opposed to inviting them to stay and colonize it?

You are a joke.

[KettleWhistle]

A couple weeks ago I watched a TV show on Channel 6, if I'm not mistaken. They interviewed a few Jews from Russia, asking them to say whatever's on their mind. One of them said something along the lines of the following:

Hi, my name is Sam. I'm from Ashkelon. I've lived in Israel for 17 years, and it is good for me, a Jew, to live here, on my native land, in my country. And we have to pull together now, and kick out all of these Arabs from our native land because I have grandchildren, and I want for them to have it good, in their country, in their native land. That's why we have to kick out all of these Russians, and all the Arab hordes, so that we, and our children, and our grandchildren can live in peace in our native lands.

This is the kinds of people that built and defended this country. And this the kinds of people that it will take to continue to build it, to fight for it, to fight anti-Semitism, and to care for their fellow Jews. Not the kinds who stress about inconviniencing the enemy with checkpoints.

[KSO]

A couple weeks ago I watched a TV show on Channel 6, if I'm not mistaken. They interviewed a few Jews from Russia, asking them to say whatever's on their mind. One of them said something along the lines of the following:

Hi, my name is Sam. I'm from Ashkelon. I've lived in Israel for 17 years, and it is good for me, a Jew, to live here, on my native land, in my country. And we have to pull together now, and kick out all of these Arabs from our native land because I have grandchildren, and I want for them to have it good, in their country, in their native land. That's why we have to kick out all of these Russians, and all the Arab hordes, so that we, and our children, and our grandchildren can live in peace in our native lands.

This is the kinds of people that built and defended this country. And this the kinds of people that it will take to continue to build it, to fight for it, to fight anti-Semitism, and to care for their fellow Jews. Not the kinds who stress about inconviniencing the enemy with checkpoints.

I think you like him because he is probably one of the few people on God's green earth who is actually dumber than you ...

[sharonbn]

That's why we have to kick out all of these Russians, and all the Arab hordes,
huh? kick out russians?

[KettleWhistle]

huh? kick out russians?

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7867

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8746