Abbas thanks Israeli Left

[sharonbn]

The Gaza Strip withdrawal was a historic precedent, with the Palestinians striving to remove the Israeli occupation and settlements from all their land, and chiefly Jerusalem, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Tuesday evening.

Speaking in Gaza, in a speech broadcast on Palestinian television , Abbas chose to thank the Israeli Left, among other elements, for helping to bring about the disengagement.

I thank all our people and everyone who assisted us, including Israeli peace forces, allied countries, Arab countries…I thank the martyrs, headed by the greatest martyr, Yasser Arafat,” Abbas said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141710,00.html

[sharonbn]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

[SteveK]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.


And, I say God forbid.

[MGB8]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

You've just been put on equal footing with "martyrs," including the (somehow) Martyr, Arafat, and you say you're welcome, on to the WB...?

making an unhappy face... <does this offend your sensibilities less?

[minusthejihad]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

Wow! I wish I could be thanked by such a righteous man like Abbas. What an honor!!!

It's too bad Abu Nidal or Yassin are dead, I'm sure they would love to kiss your babies.

[Mira]

Gosh I don't know what to say. It's just so pathetic. :(

[Mediocrates]

What are you people, on dope? (http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/fasttimesmrhand.jpg)




there that should fix it

[minusthejihad]

now on to the west bank.

Spoken like a true Hamas recruiter. Oh wow, I'm sorry, I didn;t notice you were an Israeli, sorry.

[sharonbn]

you can all bitch as much as you want.
you all know that its going to happen.
Israel will withdraw from the west bank.
its the only logical conclusion from the gaza pullout.
its only a matter of time.

[Mediocrates]

All of it? E Jerusalem too?, Golan too? I still don't understand why you maintain that any of Jerusalem is yours other than some silly legal unilateral fiction that you made it so. I think you should retreat to the pre 67 lines in their entirety.

[MGB8]

No... under Sharon's logic, Israel clearly is occupying all lands outside of the R.181 mandate, and therefor should give up Jerusalem to "international administration" and move to the mandate borders. Oh, and accept an ulimited right of return.

Meanwhile, Israel should learn to be good little calves to the slaughter, like the Jews of yester-year.

[Ariksan]

Maybe we should disengage from sharonbn.

[sharonbn]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

[Ariksan]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

I think someone whos actions proof that they don't care about the fate of Israel
someone who activly works for the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoids laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "give them everything they want and let them continue to kill us" and lets call it "peace" and call everyone that doesn't agree an extremist.
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

[sharonbn]

That wasn't adressed to you, Ariksan.
The person it was adressed to - knows it.

[Ophra]

The below is what will happen ... this I know because Sharon is of us and for us .... it is our land after all is said and done ... ours to do with what we think is best ......... for us.


What’s in Sharon’s heart?

Prime minister to set Israel’s eastern border
Yoram Kaniuk

Netanyahu is from a different ilk.

He’s an American, accepted American citizenship, swore to protect the American flag and then came back to become the prime minister of Israel.

Sharon came from the land, from Mapai (the Labor Party’s predecessor,) and from the intense heat of the country.

The country’s first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, knew well the sins of Israel’s legendary Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, and of Sharon
after him, but he also loved those lone warriors, with their tragic worldview, and believed the brave are allowed to be wrong.

Later, aided by the Christians in Lebanon, Sharon thought he could transfer the Palestinians to Jordan, and got tangled up. Behind his back, whether he knew it or not, the massacre in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps was always lurking.

Today, Sharon is the rock he was born to be. The withdrawal from Gaza is one of the most courageous moves an Israeli leader ever dared make. All the prime ministers before him could have dismantled settlements, and after Baruch Goldstein (who massacred Arabs in a Hebron mosque), could have removed the Jewish presence from Hebron as well, but they did not.

I fought alongside three sons of Kfar Malal, Sharon’s place of birth, and I know them to be hard to break. They are not of weak character like Benjamin from America.

Sharon founded the Likud party, but he is not of their flesh. He now needs to keep telling all those who became ministers and Knesset members and job holders, that if they want to let Netanyahu win, they must sacrifice themselves.

It is hard to believe that city mayors and MKs will give up a year and a half of the pleasantries of ruling.

Sharon will continue on the path to a new Israel. Despite the settlers’ fury, he will pull out from the settlements that late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin had named “political,” annex the large settlement blocs, and then for the first time in its existence, Israel will have an eastern border.

The world may be angry, but will accept it, and Israel will say: Take all the rest. We will no longer be there as occupiers with roadblocks, breaking bones, and the Palestinians will have a state in Gaza and 95 percent of the West Bank.

The Japanese author Mishima wrote that to love an apple, one must love the apple’s core. In order to touch its core, the apple must be cut. We know all of Sharon’s mistakes, his courage and stubbornness, his triumphs and sins as a soldier and a commander, his winding path stemming directly from what’s in his heart.

He has cut the apple and in a little while he will be able to love it, with wisdom that is now rearing its head, as well as with his mother’s tenderness – but also her ax.

Yoram Kaniuk is one of Israel’s most well-renowned authors

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141737,00.html

[Mediocrates]

I think someone who said he does not care about the fate of Israel,
someone who predicts the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoid laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "throw them into a black hole"
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:


Well?

[sharonbn]

BINGO!
like I said... the right person knows it was addressed to him...
wow wait a second there... he expects an answer???
hmm... let me check me schedule .... :p :p :p

[Mediocrates]

Ok so you hate me and I hate you.

Well?

[sharonbn]

Like I said, you forfeit the right to ask me questions when you did not answer mine several times.
that's me, narrow and vindictive, a typical leftie :D :D :D

[Mediocrates]

nah just a blockhead repeating blockhead things.

[Cato]

The Gaza Strip withdrawal was a historic precedent, with the Palestinians striving to remove the Israeli occupation and settlements from all their land, and chiefly Jerusalem, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Tuesday evening.

Speaking in Gaza, in a speech broadcast on Palestinian television , Abbas chose to thank the Israeli Left, among other elements, for helping to bring about the disengagement.

I thank all our people and everyone who assisted us, including Israeli peace forces, allied countries, Arab countries…I thank the martyrs, headed by the greatest martyr, Yasser Arafat,” Abbas said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3141710,00.html

I say you are certainly not welcome, never thank me again untill you stop venerating the anti-semite Yassir Arafat, Terrorist Scoundrel, and Arab Bigots who legalize wife beating like King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

I also say what were you smoking sharonbn, never accept a thank you from a man that thanks Yassir Arafat for his life long jew killing job, and accuses Israel of killing Arafat.

[machalist]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank...and then onto Jerusalem, then onto Haifa, Tel Aviv, Eilat etc..etc... Yes why don't you echo more most of their REAL intentions :rolleyes:

[minusthejihad]

I think someone whos actions proof that they don't care about the fate of Israel
someone who activly works for the destrcution of the Jewish state within the next two years,
someone who consistently avoids laying out a tangible plan for ending the conflict other than the insightful detailed "give them everything they want and let them continue to kill us" and lets call it "peace" and call everyone that doesn't agree an extremist.
someone who hasn't got the time to answer when asked

I think that this someone has forfeit the right to ask these questions.

but seriously ..... :rolleyes:

Ouch!

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=157976&postcount=2

[Ephraim]

Well, now that the handwriting is on the wall.....Gaza first, West Bank second, Jerusalem third, Israel fourth; where do you all think the Jews will move after they are forced out of Israel?

Clearly the Israeli left must have some place in mind. New York? Nah, too crowded.... Florida? the first choice up until the latest hurricanes hit. California is nice, but it will be a Mexican state in a few years, thanks to your cousins in the States. Nevada? similar to Israel but too close to California; and too many rednecks with guns.

Europe? That is a good idea...as clearly Europe has changed their evil ways.

That's a great idea. Move back to Europe. There is lots of empty space in western Poland and Russia.

Ah, I just read that Egypt is not doing anything about the Pals bringing arms into Gaza.

Better hurry Israelis....real estate in Poland is about to go up.

Never again? Nah, devu vu all over again..

:rolleyes:

[Ophra]

Well, now that the handwriting is on the wall.....Gaza first, West Bank second, Jerusalem third, Israel fourth; where do you all think the Jews will move after they are forced out of Israel?

Clearly the Israeli left must have some place in mind. New York? Nah, too crowded.... Florida? the first choice up until the latest hurricanes hit. California is nice, but it will be a Mexican state in a few years, thanks to your cousins in the States. Nevada? similar to Israel but too close to California; and too many rednecks with guns.

Europe? That is a good idea...as clearly Europe has changed their evil ways.

That's a great idea. Move back to Europe. There is lots of empty space in western Poland and Russia.

Ah, I just read that Egypt is not doing anything about the Pals bringing arms into Gaza.

Better hurry Israelis....real estate in Poland is about to go up.

Never again? Nah, devu vu all over again..

:rolleyes:

Another pessimist :rolleyes:

We aint going anywhere ..........when are you coming over to join our Army and help keep back the hordes Ephraim ??? :D

[Leon]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.

and then after Tel Aviv -- Abbas did say that the Palestinians will "fish along the entire coast of Palestine."

Well done on a good job - what a nice little Jewish dhimmi you are.

[Leon]

No... under Sharon's logic, Israel clearly is occupying all lands outside of the R.181 mandate, and therefor should give up Jerusalem to "international administration" and move to the mandate borders. Oh, and accept an ulimited right of return.

Meanwhile, Israel should learn to be good little calves to the slaughter, like the Jews of yester-year.

MG, whats dah matter? Not only ago you were arguing in favor of Sharon's plan for Gaza...so whats wrong with this?

[Ephraim]

Another pessimist :rolleyes:

We aint going anywhere ..........when are you coming over to join our Army and help keep back the hordes Ephraim ??? :D


If I knew Israel was fighting a total war against their enemies, I might just come over. If it is another....attack that city, die, and then give the city back in 3 months. No thanks. How many men have died over the Sinai? Back and forth, back and forth. No gracias.


As I am on the wrong side of 40 I would have to act in a support role. How about a 3OOmag with a nice Leupold 10x and no rules of engagement??

:D

[MGB8]

MG, whats dah matter? Not only ago you were arguing in favor of Sharon's plan for Gaza...so whats wrong with this?

Leon,

Please do not misunderstand. I approve of the disengagement as a tactical move - a move not made because there is a Pal Arab peace partner, but because THERE IS NO SUCH PEACE PARTNER. A tactical change of line positions to destroy the "demographic weapon" while keeping as much land as necessary and being in a position to crush the enemy WHEN they attack, because they will.

If they surprise me and want peace, realistic compromise, and are actually willing to make real compromises (ie. Israeli security presence as part of the border controls, no right of return, land swaps, etc.) then, hey, great, compromise. If not, its best for Israel to be in tactically the best position to win the coming big war.


ps - apologize for the edit above; I didn't change anything, just hit the wrong button.

[Mediocrates]

Well in either case, the peace camp has to decide who their friends and representatives are and how much of this 'peace' they can stand to be associated with. As history tells us, there are Quislings who make out very well under the new overlords and there are revoutionary traitors who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. On the one hand they can push and push and push for further weakening of Israel and hope that if Israel fails and their new Arab masters look kindly on their treason, or they can hope for a strong Israel and hope there is no backlash against them.

[redcake]

Is this the same Abbas who wants to include Hamas in a future government?

Is this the same Abbas who is allowing towns to be renamed after genocidal leaders?

Is that really the company you want to keep, Sharonb?

[Ophra]

Well in either case, the peace camp has to decide who their friends and representatives are and how much of this 'peace' they can stand to be associated with. As history tells us, there are Quislings who make out very well under the new overlords and there are revoutionary traitors who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. On the one hand they can push and push and push for further weakening of Israel and hope that if Israel fails and their new Arab masters look kindly on their treason, or they can hope for a strong Israel and hope there is no backlash against them.

:) .... did you listen to Sharon's speech at the UN ? ;) ... He's Da Man .

[sharonbn]

he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

[SteveK]

Quote: sharonbn: he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

Isaiah (30:1-2):

Woe, O wayward sons --- the word of HASHEM --- who take counsel, but not from Me, and who accept a ruler, but not of My spirit, in order to add sin upon sin; who are going to descend to Egypt but did not inquire of My mouth, to seek strength in Pharaoh's stronghold and to take shelter in Egypt's shade. Pharaoh's stronghold will be a shame for you and the shelter in Egypt's shade will be a humiliation!"

[minusthejihad]

he sure is, Ophra...
the size of the balls of that man...
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158133#post158133

Yup, cuz we all know that speeches at the UN have as much importance as Senate Confirmation Hearings!!

/Can I get a whoop whoop!!

[Reffo]

and I say: "you're welcome."
now on to the west bank.I can very well understand your desire and yearning for peace. I can also understand your willingness to sacrifice much and compromise for the sake of peace. I too think that for the sake of Real Peace, Israel should be prepared to compromise a great deal. However, don't you think that there should be limits to the risks that Israel should take, even for the sake of peace? My question to you Sharonbn is: At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?

[Ophra]

I can very well understand your desire and yearning for peace. I can also understand your willingness to sacrifice much and compromise for the sake of peace. I too think that for the sake of Real Peace, Israel should be prepared to compromise a great deal. However, don't you think that there should be limits to the risks that Israel should take, even for the sake of peace? My question to you Sharonbn is: At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?

Reffo ..... trust Ariel Sharon .. I do . He has only the best interests of Israel at heart. Nothing else . He is not Bibi ;)

Look:
"" In his address to the United Nations, Sharon said, "The fact that the Jewish nation has a right to the Land of Israel does not mean that we are ignoring the Palestinians’ rights. They will always be our neighbors. We respect them and we have no desire to rule over them. They too are entitled to liberty and sovereign national existence in their country.” ""

In answer to your question :
Gaza is a test case.
Negotiations on Palestinian statehood in Gaza and the West Bank based on a U.S.-backed “Road map” Peace plan has been ruled out by Israel until Palestinians disarm militants opposed to peacemaking..
It's up to them now . If "they" want a State then "they" control "their" extremists. If they don't or they can't ........... then we will .

[sharonbn]

At what point should Israel stop with the gestures and say that the risk is too high? At what point should Israel demand real and concrete counter moves of compromise by the Palestinians, before making further concessions? Can you answer this question? Are you willing to answer this question?
Israel should continue the unilateral withdrawal from occupied territories. The west bank is basically the same situation as GZ - small Israeli colonies perched right in the middle of large hostile Pal indeginous population. It is impossible to defend these colonies. Thus, the withdrawal serves to strenghthen Israeli security (as well as the right thing to do, but that is just a side effect.)

and that is it. no more is needed nor required from Israel.

[Reffo]

Ophra
I agree with you.

Sharonbn
So, are you proposing to withdraw all the way back to the pre 1967 borders? Including Jerusalem? If so, at what point do you expect some meaningful counter gestures from the Palestinians? And what would these be?

[sharonbn]

I am proposing a withdrawal to *near* 67 borders, with major settlements blocks annexed to Israel.
Kinda like the Geneva accord, which, for instance, in Jerusalem, kept Maale Edomim and Givat Zeev in Israel
http://www.geneva-accord.org/TemplateControls/GalleryPopup.aspx?docid=443
This, I believe, will also be accpeted by Pals.

I expect the Pals to stop terrorism. Until now, Mahmud Abbas has shown he has the will to do just that.

[Reffo]

I am proposing a withdrawal to *near* 67 borders, with major settlements blocks annexed to Israel.For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders. Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments, the terrorist attacks did not stop, he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air). And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper. Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed. At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?

[Ophra]

For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders. Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments, the terrorist attacks did not stop, he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air). And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper. Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed. At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?

Aha!! .... and this is where I agree with you Reffo. I would like to see Abbas grow a pair of balls like Arik..... stand up to his own extremists and stop being such a wussy !!

[Mediocrates]

No can explain or agree on what 'real peace' is. 'Real peace' is like saying you live in a city with no crime. I have to side with Abbas on this one. If Israel is unwilling or unable to articulate what their success criteria are, there's no reason for the PLO to try to comply.

[MGB8]

What worries me about Sharonbn is not the end result, it is the logic used in getting there. By following his logic, you can very easily conclude that all of Israel is just a colony put into a hostile Arab population. It seems that Sharonbn has completely, or nearly completely, accepted the Arab narrative (good ol' liberal schooling)... but somehow doesn't come to the logical conclusion of the Arab narrative - that Israel is a historic mistake and injustice that must be removed.

I don't think Sharonbn's position and conclusion is ultimately tennable, as, from his logical foundation, every Arab demand is more or lest justified, and any Israeli opposition an injustice (even if a necessary one.)

This is not like Arik Sharon. The idea that the Pal Arabs have claims and rights DOES NOT MEAN that the Jews are just "colonialists" - ie. have no legitimate claims or rights. On the contrary, this is a situation with competing claims and rights, which must be resolved to the best benefit of both parties (but likely will be resolved by a big war, knowing the Pal Arabs, and not to their benefit).

In the mental war, the war of wills, Sharonbn has already been defeated. He, individually, has lost, and so he plays the hand of the loser, begging for peace. Ophra, and SteveK and Toga and the rest of the Israelis on this board, for all their disagreements, for the most part have not so been defeated.

[Reffo]

Medio

I have already posted these criteria for peace on another thread:

Success Criteria

When both sides ‘get out of blame mode’ and give credit to each others concessions
When both sides prevent any public incitement and create a more positive atmosphere
When both sides acknowledge their own historical wrong doings and not just harp on what the other has done wrong
When the Palestinians allow their own dissenters to speak up without having to fear violence or death. Even if they are as extreme as Chomsky is against Israel (their mirror image being extreme against the current Palestinian politics)
When the Palestinians outlaw, disarm and imprison their extremists and do everything possible to prevent violent attacks (not just half heartedly)

[Mediocrates]

ha ha ha ha

[Reffo]

Yea, I know what you mean, not very realistic is it? It's more realistic to expect hate, terrorism, lies, breaking of committments, propaganda and incitement from them.

[Mediocrates]

I was trying to be more narrow. What does anyone think a workable definition of 'peace' is. In other words let's start with what people are willing to accept and then figure out how to work toward that. Is one attack a month acceptable? Two? Zero? What is the permissible scope of attacks? For example should Israel respond if it's bus that's blown up versus an El Al jet? Can Palestinians implore the UN to declare that Jews breathing Palestinian air is a warcrime? And so on. I don't think anyone but the Kool Aid suckers actually believe that Israel and the Palestinians can have anything of any practical import to do with one another, or if they say they do believe it they're simply being disingenuous. On the other hand it's critical to understand what events and what escalations will trigger any given response moving forward. Perfect peace is impossible, even a deeply flawed peace with periodic atrocities is not completely workable. What they have to come to terms with is how much or little of that they each can live with.

[redcake]

The current strategy seems to be giving a delicate toy to a bully, and then saying "see what he did!" when it's inevitably broken.

So was Sharon mistaken, or outright fibbing when he said:

"The fate of Netzarim is the fate of Negba, and Tel Aviv"... "such an evacuation would encourage terrorismand bring pressure on us." - April 23, 2002, to Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

Or the Likud platform which said:

"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

What has progressed to change Sharon's mind since 2002 ?

[sharonbn]

For Real Peace I would tend to agree with you regarding the borders.
Fine, so we agree that Israel should withdraw from 95% of WB. The only disagreement is how and when.

Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments,
That is open to personal opinion. I happen to beileve that he knows what needs to take place in order for independant Palestine to be founded, and terror cells and gangs aren't gonna make it happen. He also knows his limitations. He knows he does not have enough power to arrest and stop Hamas IJ et al. So he manouvers between signing agreements with the terror organizations and fighting them openly in the streets.

I think he's clever and has the correct agenda. Time will tell what will become of him and the Pals.

the terrorist attacks did not stop
huh? come again?
Maybe you have forgotten what it was like here during 2001 and 2002.
Terror attacks will never stop 100%, just like int'l terrorism will never stop.
But to paint a picture as if the situation did not **dramatically** change in the last year is just distortion. Abbas has at least some if not a lot of credit for that change.

he did not disarm the terrorists, he did not even outlaw terrorism, all he is doing is paying lip service when he condemns terrorist acts but does very little to stop it (other than just pleading with Hamas and shooting guns in the air).
I already answered that. To ask Abbas to disarm the terrorists is like asking him to commit political suicide (and perhaps not just political one) He has to manouver within his capabilities to achieve his goals, one of which being to maintain quiet. Its his interest to maintain the quiet. His reign depends on that.

And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper.
and Israel did not renounce its claim to WB. lets leave something to negotiate about shall we?

Sharonbn, you know very well that this was one of the main reasons why Oslo collapsed.
The Osle "collapse" as you called it was because both sides did not want to implement it. Nevertheless, the agreement was important building block in the peace process. You can't jump from total control to total withdrawal. IT is simply unfeasible. The process has to be gradual, so the public gets used to the idea of withdrawal. So the agreement was an absolute necessary at the time for all parties.

At what point do you expect him to deliver some counter gestures? And what would these be? Or are you serious in your claim that he has already delivered what was expected of him?
I did not say he already delivered what was expected of him. I said he has shown he WANTS to deliver and wants to be regarded a serious partner.
His deliverance will tale time and Israel should make an effort to help him.

As I said already - time will tell what Abbas' worth is. Based on the past and present, You seem to judge him as just another terrorist lord bent on the total destruction of Israel. I remain optimistic. No one knows for sure. But if you're right, then there is no hope for Israel. We cannot endure ongoing war of attrition for decades to come. We are too little for that. Israel's only hope is peace and established borders that are agreed by the Arabs.

[sharonbn]

What worries me about Sharonbn is not the end result, it is the logic used in getting there. By following his logic, you can very easily conclude that all of Israel is just a colony put into a hostile Arab population.
oh please this is really really getting tiring.
I've said it over and over ad nausia and you simply choose to ignore.

The Israeli left with all its plans and agreements and statements and philosophy has never ever ever ever e-v-e-r e-v-e-r e--v--e--r used the logic if WB settlements are an imperialistic colonies - so is Tel Aviv.
That "line" of logic is implied by the right wing, not the left wing.

Israel H-A-S borders. They are the 1949 armstice agreements. The corrections for the green line in the Geneva accord take into acount the 38 years that passed since 67. that's it.

There was never ever ever ever e-v-e-r e-v-e-r e--v--e--r any doubt in the Israeli left as to Israel's right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people.

I hope I said for the last time... but I know I didnt....

[MGB8]

You can say it all you want, but there is no logical difference between saying anything past the green lines is a colony and anything beyond the partition boundaries is a border. UN R. 242 does not set the green line, nor have I seen any "international law" which says that the green line is the border, and, frankly, reliance on International law (the acceptance of everyone else) is not a path you want to go down - what happens when the SC decides that the 181 boundaries are what are acceptable? And, in terms of the idea of what is a colonist, there is no logical difference between Jewish sovereignty, presence in ANY of Israel and in the WB and Gaza. None. Its just not a colony. A colony is an outpost of an already existant, distant state. There weren't German colonies in Poland, just Germanic towns. You have to take into the context of Israel's legitimate claims (via law of war) to the WB and Gaza.

[MGB8]

ps... what makes a WB colony "imperialistic" but not a town outside the R.181 borders? The Armistace lines? Did the Pal Arabs agree to them? Was there a peace treaty which recognized them? Weren't they, too, conquered in a war of self-defense?

What is the logical difference, Sharonbn? Because you have not brought one out.

Saying "the left has never said they are the same" doesn't say anything. The issue is, applying consistent intellectual definitions, why is one different than the other?

[Mediocrates]

I'd still like to understand the bona fides of saying part of Jerusalem, the non East Jerusalem part is Israel inviolate forever based solely on Israel's own unilateral annexation of it. That seems more a legal conceit than an explanation.

[MGB8]

Sharonbn relies on the international "acceptance" of the Green line... nothing more. But the Arabs certainly didn't accept these lines... and there is no SC resolution saying these are the borders, (and the SC is fickle and could change... I don't recall whether zoinism is racism was SC or GA...I think it was SC) and, frankly, its not the UN's role to be the arbitrer of what is a legitimate border and what is not - who gave the UN that authority?

[Mediocrates]

No no my point is simple. Before 1967 there was no Israeli presence in Jerusalem. None. Later on it was esplained to me Israel simply annexed Jerusalem and so therefore it's part of Israel forever. But other than simply erecting a legal convenience of annexation there is nothing there that is inherently different from all the other land they're willing to give up with seemingly rational excuses of 'it wasn't ours to begin with'. Ok so I understand it's just hypocrisy, but I'm just trying to get them to admit that.

[MGB8]

You are refering to the old city and East Jerusalem? W. Jerusalem was in Israeli hands post 48.

Maybe this little tidbit will job Sharonbn's understanding of the real issue, however... Chavez suggested moving the headquarters of the UN to a city "not part of the sovereignty of any state." And which individual city did he mention... drum role please... Jerusalem.

To rely on the good will (including "laws") of the gentiles and muslims for your security is to invite another Holocaust, nothing more. Good little sheep.

[frizzer1]

Aha!! .... and this is where I agree with you Reffo. I would like to see Abbas grow a pair of balls like Arik..... stand up to his own extremists and stop being such a wussy !!

Me too.
And then we can start the pool on how long he will live.
I fugure that he might survive a couple of months with a little luck.

[Reffo]

Where I disagree with you though is about Abbas. I think he is not delivering on his 'Road Map' commitments,
That is open to personal opinion. I happen to beileve that he knows what needs to take place in order for independant Palestine to be founded, and terror cells and gangs aren't gonna make it happen. He also knows his limitations. He knows he does not have enough power to arrest and stop Hamas IJ et al. So he manouvers between signing agreements with the terror organizations and fighting them openly in the streets.

I think he's clever and has the correct agenda. Time will tell what will become of him and the Pals.You are right that time will tell, I actually hope that you are right but IMO the signs are not good. Even if he has his heart in the right place, I am not sure that he will succeed, but I am not yet convinced that he is not a wolf in a sheep's clothing and, again, I hope that I am wrong on that score.

the terrorist attacks did not stop
huh? come again?
Maybe you have forgotten what it was like here during 2001 and 2002.
Terror attacks will never stop 100%, just like int'l terrorism will never stop.
But to paint a picture as if the situation did not **dramatically** change in the last year is just distortion. Abbas has at least some if not a lot of credit for that change.Actually 2001 and 2002 is not a good comparison because Israel was still on it's back foot at that stage. A better comparison would be between say early 2004 and 2005. I think you are passing some of the credit due to the Israeli tactics in stopping terrorism in the latter part of the Intifada, to Abbas. The fact is, that these tactics started to bear fruit even before Abbas got elected. Remember that Arafat died in November 2004 and Abbas was elected in early 2005. The following URL lists MAJOR terrorist incidents since the commencement of the Oslo accord, so let's analyse what it tells us:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html

July 12, 2005 Netanya 5 killed, 70+ wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide bombing outside shopping mall.

February 25, 2005 Tel Aviv 5 killed, 50 wounded Islamic Jihad Bombing outside night club.

August 31, 2004 Beersheba 16 killed, 100 wounded Hamas Two suicide bombings on buses.

March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 killed, 16 wounded Hamas and Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Twin suicide bombings at port

February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, over 60 wounded Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Suicide bombing on bus

January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing on bus

It does show a marginal improvement but the year is not yet finished and of course it also ignores other attacks and the success of Israeli security forces in stopping major terrorist plots in 2005.

To ask Abbas to disarm the terrorists is like asking him to commit political suicide (and perhaps not just political one) He has to manouver within his capabilities to achieve his goals, one of which being to maintain quiet. Its his interest to maintain the quiet. His reign depends on that.You may or may not be right but look at it from a self interested point of view (Israel's): Tell me, what good is Abbas to Israel if he can only act as a lame duck leader who cannot establish the rule of law? In fact, I put it to you that unless he can demonstrate that he will be effective in stopping the terrorists, he will be more of a liability than an asset to Israel because he is more credible than the Hamasniks and the Jihadniks (As far as the rest of the world is concerned). Yet, it is a false credibility because he is ineffective in stopping the terrorism. And I don't necessarily expect 100% success rate either but a 100% effort should be expected. And more than that: Why does he not at least start to reduce the ill will and the incitement among the Palestinians? Why does he not express some positive gestures towards Israel's efforts? These are just some soft options that he could pursue a bit more vigorously, don't you think?

And even more importantly, he did not renounce the Palestinian claim of the right of return of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants) to Israel proper.
and Israel did not renounce its claim to WB. lets leave something to negotiate about shall we?Sharonbn, you are probably a very nice human being. In fact, I would say that you and many like you are too nice for your own good. Tell me, do you really want to even raise the hopes of the Palestinians up with regards to their outrageous demands to allow the return of not only the refugees but their descendants as well? If not, then I would suggest to you that you and others like you would serve the Palestinian interests better as well if you joined other Israeli voices and make it clear that they cannot even entertain such notions.

The Osle "collapse" as you called it was because both sides did not want to implement it. Nevertheless, the agreement was important building block in the peace process. You can't jump from total control to total withdrawal. IT is simply unfeasible. The process has to be gradual, so the public gets used to the idea of withdrawal. So the agreement was an absolute necessary at the time for all parties.Huh? you lost me with this one! Are you saying that Barak's offer was not far reaching enough and that it should have been rejected by Arafat?

I did not say he already delivered what was expected of him. I said he has shown he WANTS to deliver and wants to be regarded a serious partner.
His deliverance will tale time and Israel should make an effort to help him.

As I said already - time will tell what Abbas' worth is. Based on the past and present, You seem to judge him as just another terrorist lord bent on the total destruction of Israel. I remain optimistic. No one knows for sure. But if you're right, then there is no hope for Israel. We cannot endure ongoing war of attrition for decades to come. We are too little for that. Israel's only hope is peace and established borders that are agreed by the Arabs.OK, but don't be in such a rush to accommodate him either. By all means, reward Abbas for effort and do a bit of give and take, don't rush just to give, because your efforts may not be appreciated and will probably be misconstrued. Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?

[pelsar]

Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?

but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externally

[Ophra]

Absolutely 100% on the button ...... completely agree with you pelsar.....and.... it's good to see you back :)

[SteveK]

but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externally


pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel. I always paid my taxes to the State of Israel and not any Rabbinic dynasty. When I voted, it was always at a government approved center and not just at any yeshiva.
When I made aliyah, I distinctly remember all the stamps bearing the logo and name of The State of Israel, and not the stamps bearing the logo and name of the issuing supervisor for a kashrut certificate.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:



http://www.arutz7.net/news.php?id=89940

Prime Minister Sharon Addresses United Nations

...

"Ariel Sharon told the United Nations that the Land of Israel is dear to him - but apparantly not as dear as keeping his family members out of prison," said MK Tzvi Hendel (National Union), evicted from his home in Ganei Tal as part of the Gaza withdrawal. "The entire Gaza withdrawal was aimed at having the criminal files of Sharon and his sons closed."

...

[Ophra]

pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel. I always paid my taxes to the State of Israel and not any Rabbinic dynasty. When I voted, it was always at a government approved center and not just at any yeshiva.
When I made aliyah, I distinctly remember all the stamps bearing the logo and name of The State of Israel, and not the stamps bearing the logo and name of the issuing supervisor for a kashrut certificate.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=158386#post158386

[pelsar]

pelsar,

In my 25 years here in Israel, I never remember any ambiguity about the position of the Israeli government "owning" the State of Israel.

About who now controls the State of Israel, well, I think that the Israeli public should shift their attention from your libelous propaganda and psychological warfare on the Torah leaders, and over to the corrupt and seditious folks with whom you and Ophra associate:

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.

nothing but the hand of the state doing what govts are supposed to do...and citizens, both within the settlements and those in the security forces listening to what the political echelon ordered. We have shown ourselves the IRAN II we will not become...and for that i thank god.


oh btw your byline is cute....anymore conspiracy theories...I'll bet you got a million of em..

[KettleWhistle]

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

Right on! Which is really why Israel is only semi-Democratic, since in truly free and democratic countries the people own both the state and the government. In Israel, the government is, for the large part, a bunch of corrupt thugs who chose to ignore the majority of their people, and instead focuses on catering to the hostile alien minority.

There was a another thread on the subject of Israeli leftists--well, Abbas' "thank yous" make it quite obvious what these are--enemy collaborators.

[pelsar]

Right on! Which is really why Israel is only semi-Democratic, since in truly free and democratic countries the people own both the state and the government. In Israel, the government is, for the large part, a bunch of corrupt thugs who chose to ignore the majority of their people, and instead focuses on catering to the hostile alien minority.

There was a another thread on the subject of Israeli leftists--well, Abbas' "thank yous" make it quite obvious what these are--enemy collaborators.

yes I am a enemy collaborator!...i cant wait until the palestenains come and take over zichron yaacov and put my family in the proper concentration camp...i no doubt will be rewarded for my good deeds..and i cant wait until that happens...

i always get a "kick" out of being called a collaborator....
_____________________________________
as far as our govt goes...if it truly was democratic it would have
proportional representation from the different areas...

and in fact if your interested in such a movement it does exist today..you should look into it:

http://www.geocities.com/directrepisrael/EN/YourPart.html

of course with that kind of govt the settler industry would have collapsed years ago...so maybe you really dont want a true democracy.... do you

are you talking about that invisible majority that was against the gaza pullout that never materialized? that didnt march down to gaza in 100,000s?, that didnt leave the army...that majority?...seems to me during oslo, protests where quite strong and loud...for this...hardly even a whisper. I think the majority your talking about simply isnt around......or are they in hiding somewhere cause i sure cant see them.."come out come out where ever you are"

[KettleWhistle]

yes I am a enemy collaborator!...i cant wait until the palestenains come and take over zichron yaacov and put my family in the proper concentration camp...i no doubt will be rewarded for my good deeds..and i cant wait until that happens...

You know, there is a difference between supporting the enemy that colonized our homeland, and supporting a tactical decision. You, obviously, support the enemy. As you said, they are now free to teach, etc. Sharonbn is happy to be of help to the enemy as well. So what happened to loving and caring for your own?

are you talking about that invisible majority that was against the gaza pullout that never materialized? that didnt march down to gaza in 100,000s?, that didnt leave the army...that majority?...seems to me during oslo, protests where quite strong and loud...for this...hardly even a whisper. I think the majority your talking about simply isnt around......or are they in hiding somewhere cause i sure cant see them.."come out come out where ever you are"
Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that. But even when we did know that the majority of the population, including the vast majority of the core population (i.e. Jews) were opposing damaging actions of the government during the Oslo tragedy, nothing was done to bring the responsible parties to justice. It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

[SteveK]

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.

nothing but the hand of the state doing what govts are supposed to do...and citizens, both within the settlements and those in the security forces listening to what the political echelon ordered. We have shown ourselves the IRAN II we will not become...and for that i thank god.


oh btw your byline is cute....anymore conspiracy theories...I'll bet you got a million of em..


pelsar,

The byline at the end of my posts is a verse from Torah, the Prophet Malachi.
It translates: "I am HaShem, and I have not changed, and you, the Sons of Jacob, have not been destroyed".

That includes you and Ophra. You are Jews that have not been destroyed, but have lived to see the realization of Biblical prophecy for return to your Jewish Homeland. Only the Torah leadership can ensure that, and certainly not you and Ophra. That's fact. No conspiracy theory. In fact, if it hadn't been for these Torah leaders over 2,000 years, Jews wouldn't know that they are Jews and wouldn't have known their connection and right to this choice piece of Mediterranean real estate.

I hate to break it to you, but the Israeli public is the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul. The Torah leaders must bring themselves to be more united, prominent, and accepted at the national level and not just the yeshiva and community circle. I think that the desecration of God's name that you, Ophra, and your gang have committed will propel them into more serious and authoritative leadership roles here in Israel for a Torah Nation. You must remember the story of Moses and his opponent Korach. Korach and his followers were very much in the mentality of you, Ophra, and her gang. They also thought that they had the Israeli public's support and faith. Wrong. In the end, the Israeli public wants what Torah leadership gives.

But,Torah leadership must present themselves to the Israeli public. And, now its crucial that the Torah leaders present themselves to the public for what they are capable,--- National Torah leadership, and not just leading synagogues and yeshivas.

The Jewish Torah Nation from Mount Sinai was nothing about an Iranian theocracy. Talk about imaginative and perverted conspiracy theories. You atheists are full of them.

Torah leaders need to address the nation that a collective Jewish mind, heart,and soul can't be developed in the Israeli youth by ordering them to expell Jews from their God given Land.

[Ophra]

It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

Yo! ... here we go again.... KW's hero worship of Yigal Amir !!!!!!!

[KettleWhistle]

No worship here. Only a sincere show of respect to a man who helped make Israel a better place.

[Ophra]

In the end, the Israeli public wants what Torah leadership gives

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

[Ophra]

No worship here. Only a sincere show of respect to a man who helped make Israel a better place.

No worship KW !!... who are you kidding ??? You never shut up about him.... you even said you would name your son after him :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Your sig says it all.
Made Israel a better place ? :eek: ........ for the likes of you maybe ... not for those that till this day cannot believe how such a thing came to pass.

[SteveK]

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

HO HO HO!!! Ophra wants to convert the Jewish Nation to Christianity and have them believe in Santa Claus,--- the Santa Claus of appeasement and surrender to the goyim and her Arab despotic murderous masters, for giving us our Christmas wish of "peace".

"A normal country in a normal world." That means to Ophra and her gang telling the world that anything said up unitl now about the 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage and our God given Land is null and void. All previous statements as such made by David Ben-Gurion, and used as a claim ticket to her right and connection to the Land of Israel by Ophra's grandmother is now inoperative and null and void.

Ophra and her gang have conquered the Land by the sword and with the sword will keep it. This is the normalcy of what Ophra will represent now to the world about the Israeli Nation and its National identity. Billions of Christians and Muslims relate to Israel in a spiritual way from the time of Abraham that Ophra and her gang want stricken from the record. Ophra and her gang are the self-appointed "real" custodians of the "Holy Land".

Ophra and her gang are putting themselves in the wrong role for Israel:


EZEKIEL 32:1

... the world of HaShem came to me saying, Son of Man, take up a lament for Pharaoh, king of Egypt:

You imagined yourself a young lion among the nations, but you are like a serpent in the seas.

[pelsar]

stevek
i dont get too worked up over your "torah leadership"...since the number of variations/cults/sects must number of hundreds here:

be they haridi, religious zionist, sub sects following different rabbis, jews for jesus, jews following some dead scholor, etc all declaring that they KNOW whats right and JUST...leaving no room for those that disagree....we know what that looks like by taking a peak at Iran today or the taliban of a couple of years ago....

In israel today you have the choice of sect/cult to follow....in your dream govt such a thing wont exist....

aint gonna happen...us heathens who are happy to let you worship as you please, and will defend you from outside forces......are keeping our country, with all its imperfections..we are the jews and israelis of today not of yesterday

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.

[pelsar]

You know, there is a difference between supporting the enemy that colonized our homeland, and supporting a tactical decision. You, obviously, support the enemy. As you said, they are now free to teach, etc. Sharonbn is happy to be of help to the enemy as well. So what happened to loving and caring for your own?


Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that. But even when we did know that the majority of the population, including the vast majority of the core population (i.e. Jews) were opposing damaging actions of the government during the Oslo tragedy, nothing was done to bring the responsible parties to justice. It really HAD to be a courageous and tragic self-sacrifice of a concerned citizen to bring some sense of justice to that situation.

you live in a illusionary world....your "majority" is no where to be seen, where are the protests against sharon?....where? anywhere?.. ...no where..they dont exist

and if we're the enemy...well that sure would surprise some people i know who used to live in Neve Dekalim...because they sure dont think so....but then it must be frustrating to live in a country where you believe most of the population are traitors......

get some protests going....at least 100,000 people, then you will have a case..until then....you dont..just a belief which is in the minute minority

[SteveK]

stevek
i dont get too worked up over your "torah leadership"...since the number of variations/cults/sects must number of hundreds here:

be they haridi, religious zionist, sub sects following different rabbis, jews for jesus, jews following some dead scholor, etc all declaring that they KNOW whats right and JUST...leaving no room for those that disagree....we know what that looks like but taking a peak at Iran today or the taliban of a couople of years ago....

In israel today you have the choice of sect/cult to follow....in your dream such a thing wont exist....

aint gonna happen...us heathens who are happy to let you worship as you please, and will defend you from outside forces......are keeping our country, with all its imperfections..we are the jews and israelis of today not of yesterday

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.


pelsar,

If you look back at the origin of your Jewish heritage, it's nothing about the list of subversive poop that you listed. Torah leadership has kept alive the Jewish heritage for more than 2,000 years of exile, from generation to generation, through unspeakable persecutions. That's about real Torah leadership of real Jewish communities through 2,000 years of telling the world about our right and connection that gave the Jews their claim ticket to the Land of Israel. Even Chabad and Breslov are two Chassidic examples dating back already 2 centuries.

We Jews of today are here in Israel and can lay claim to it only because of the Jews of yesterday. And, our Jewish heritage is a heritage for all time.
The Torah is one Torah and one Law for the sovereign governance of Israel.

But, the start to a Torah Nation will come through a more united National Torah leadership. And, this is coming in the near future. The desecration of God's Name by you heathens, in the sight of the world, is ample motivation to bring together these Rabbis who have been more in the mindset of maintaining their own local communities. And, they will come together to speak to the Nation,- the collective Jewish mind, heart, and soul.

Don't underestimate the potential of today's Torah leadership who has 2,000 years of accumulated experience in bringing the Jewish People to be the Jewish People.

[pelsar]

pelsar,
We Jews of today are here in Israel and can lay claim to it only because of the Jews of yesterday. And, our Jewish heritage is a heritage for all time..

and it will continue to be our heritage.....it shall continue to be a guide for our people....it just wont be used as the laws to govern our modern jewish state....

[KettleWhistle]

you live in a illusionary world....

Illusionary world? Let me repost what I said: "Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that."

"That" was reffering to where the majority stands on various issues.

[KettleWhistle]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

[pelsar]

Illusionary world? Let me repost what I said: "Well, thanks to the undemocratic refusal for a refferendum we'll never know that."

"That" was reffering to where the majority stands on various issues.

whats all this 'democracy you keep talking about?....your not for a democracy....so why are complaining about the present system?

and besides we have a representative style of govt...that means we elect people to represent us and decide for us on the issues...if we dont like them, then we dont re-elect them.....thats how it works here. referendums are not necessary part of that proces..anyway its a mute point. It was and is clear that a small minority actually went to protest and they were mostly from a distinct population group

your "majority"....guess we'll see in a few years if sharon is re elected or if israel goes for labor...or...who represents your views?.....that "majority"?

which party is that?

[pelsar]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

Abbas is totally irrelvent here.....he plays no part in how and what happened.

[KettleWhistle]

Funny stuff. Really. It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin. And you forgot to mention that Israel doesn't have a representative democracy, and thus you don't vote for individual politicians, but for their (and their children's, friends', business partners', etc.) parties. Try to read that link you posted a few messages above, k?

[Ophra]

You obviously missed my point, as I wasn't addressing the idea of the withdrawal, but the manner in which it was conducted, and the attitudes of the Left. I'd think that even the hatemongers like Ophra would be ashamed to be among those credited by Abbas.

I AM NOT A LEFTIST ..... AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!

I also do NOT hate anyone.... but I am getting very close to hating you KW :mad:

Pssst ... Abbas doesn't know I exist ;)

[Ophra]

Funny stuff. Really. It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin. And you forgot to mention that Israel doesn't have a representative democracy, and thus you don't vote for individual politicians, but for their (and their children's, friends', business partners', etc.) parties. Try to read that link you posted a few messages above, k?

Nobody kicked Rabin out knucklhead .... he was murdered !!!!!
Only way you could get rid of him .

[SteveK]

and it will continue to be our heritage.....it shall continue to be a guide for our people....it just wont be used as the laws to govern our modern jewish state....

pelsar,

pelsar:

going to work i pass the neyanya bridges..there the dead habad rabbi (the mesiach) has a poster with his image on the pillars...looks out and tells me not to help the gaza withdrawl for its a sin.....i wave back...and tell him to phone me if he wants to talk.....he still hasnt.

I don't think that Lubaviticher Rebbe will call you, but The Living God of Israel has already spoken to the Jewish Nation for all times through His Torah and His prophets.

Numbers (15:16):

"There will be one Torah and one law for you and for the convert who lives with you."

[pelsar]

Nobody kicked Rabin out knucklhead .... he was murdered !!!!!
Only way you could get rid of him .

Ophra...take it easy....like many on the extreme edge....illusions are part of life...his "majority" is probably his peer group which tends to cloud his understanding of his environment.

Reminds me of my "mem peh"....religious used to live in Neve Dekalim. He had a hard time understanding us non religious soldiers. One of our soldiers was an ex-haridi, ex religious zionist....and finally just a "heathen"...anyways Pini would explain to maor using talmudic passages and commentary to help explain to maor our "way of life". Maor unlike our "k" here was both interested in our way of life and respectful of it, as we are of his (he got tremendous support from us during and after the withdrawl....from all over the world). and most important "non illusional"

but that takes an open mind and a willing to understand and respect others

anyways...k complains about the "lack of democracy" but at the sametime commends the murder of the PM and in the end wants a dictatorship.....meaning his "complaints are simply hipocrasy at best...

[pelsar]

pelsar,
I don't think that Lubaviticher Rebbe will call you,

why not?...doesnt he have our new numbers?

[redcake]

No Steve .... the Israeli public wants Peace.... it wants to be left alone and to get on with a normal life.... a normal country in a normal world .
Mainly it wants all religious nutters to leave us the hell alone ... including your crowd .

If you stuck all the Rabbis in jail, and Israel was left to the secular-atheists do you truly believe anti-semitism would turn into rosey smiles, and the Palestinians would suddenly relinquish all claims to Israel, and all indoctrinated hatred for Jews ?

[KettleWhistle]

anyways...k complains about the "lack of democracy" but at the sametime commends the murder of the PM and in the end wants a dictatorship.....meaning his "complaints are simply hipocrasy at best...

It's really impossible to stop laughing at all this comedy you're spewing around around here. I'm neither religious, nor do I promote the idea of dictatorship. And to top it off for you, I was in support of the withdrawal.

So who's being hypocritical? :rolleyes:

[pelsar]

If you stuck all the Rabbis in jail, and Israel was left to the secular-atheists do you truly believe anti-semitism would turn into rosey smiles, and the Palestinians would suddenly relinquish all claims to Israel, and all indoctrinated hatred for Jews ?

you really dont get it do you?....its not about atheists or appeasing anti semites....its about jews living in israel in all their variations from non religious to reform to conservative to orthadox, to religious zionism, to hilltopyouth, to haridi, to habad, to neutri karta to subsects who idolize a scholor in russia to those who believe that bringing back the temple is the end all (did i get your variation in there?)........and all of them living together without once cult or sect telling the others how to live.....kind of like you have it in america.

you seem to have a problem with that.....at least as far as I understand.....

[pelsar]

It's really impossible to stop laughing at all this comedy you're spewing around around here. I'm neither religious, nor do I promote the idea of dictatorship. And to top it off for you, I was in support of the withdrawal.

So who's being hypocritical? :rolleyes:

well then i am confused..

wasnt this one of yours?

"It's just that I know of only one politician who'd been kicked out of office by the will of the people--Rabin."

thats what people who are against democracies promote in their own country: kill the leader who was elected that you disagree with.

[Reffo]

OK, but don't be in such a rush to accommodate him either. By all means, reward Abbas for effort and do a bit of give and take, don't rush just to give, because your efforts may not be appreciated and will probably be misconstrued. Haven't you heard what the Palestinians are saying about the Gaza withdrawal? Many of them believe that it was achieved as a result of their terror tactics. Is that the lesson you want them to learn?
but that was in fact a good part why we left....if they werent attacking and we didnt have thousands of troops there and spending millions in defensive positions...we wouldnt have left.

more so whatever the reason their feeding themselves is the reason they're going to teach...whatever the truth may or many not be.

also....there is no more ambiguities...no more confusion as to who 'owns the state of israel....the government does and not any rabbi or his followers.

and finally the palestenains get to prove themselves...with out any confusion, either they are capable or running a society or they arent....its now up to them.

getting out of gaza served israels self interests both internally and externallyPelsar, I think you misunderstood my post entirely. I was not necessarily against the Gaza withdrawal although, if truth be known, I do have some reservations about the way it was done. Nevertheless, I do accept it and time will tell whether it was the right move.

What I was saying to Sharonbn is that after the Gaza withdrawal, Israel should take care not to get too far ahead of itself with unreciprocated concessions to Abbas because such gestures seem to be miscontrued by the Palestinians.

Now, here is a question to you: You say that "the palestenains get to prove themselves...". What, in your opinion, should happen if they fail the test and continue their terrorism against Israel? How should Israel react? Do you think they should then still continue to give up more land?

[redcake]

you really dont get it do you?....its not about atheists or appeasing anti semites....its about jews living in israel in all their variations from non religious to reform to conservative to orthadox, to religious zionism, to hilltopyouth, to haridi, to habad, to neutri karta to subsects who idolize a scholor in russia to those who believe that bringing back the temple is the end all (did i get your variation in there?)........and all of them living together without once cult or sect telling the others how to live.....kind of like you have it in america.

you seem to have a problem with that.....at least as far as I understand.....

Nope, no problem with that at all. So why do you keep claiming that's the issue ? Israel's infighting and cliques are a source of frusteration, but the Israeli obsession with arguing (or talking over one another and only hearing what they want to hear) is only about as relevant to the freedom and existance of Israel as it's enemies are. Meaning, the topic is Abbas, the PA and Israel's shrinking borders while under attack.... some people would rather make it a topic of the enemy within, but that self defeating attitude gets us nowhere. When your enemies side with your strategies, you know you're in trouble. When you can't distinguish your enemies from your own people, then you're doomed.

[Reffo]

I was trying to be more narrow. What does anyone think a workable definition of 'peace' is. In other words let's start with what people are willing to accept and then figure out how to work toward that. Is one attack a month acceptable? Two? Zero? What is the permissible scope of attacks? For example should Israel respond if it's bus that's blown up versus an El Al jet? Can Palestinians implore the UN to declare that Jews breathing Palestinian air is a warcrime? And so on. I don't think anyone but the Kool Aid suckers actually believe that Israel and the Palestinians can have anything of any practical import to do with one another, or if they say they do believe it they're simply being disingenuous. On the other hand it's critical to understand what events and what escalations will trigger any given response moving forward. Perfect peace is impossible, even a deeply flawed peace with periodic atrocities is not completely workable. What they have to come to terms with is how much or little of that they each can live with.IMO, not a single attack is really acceptable. However, as you say crimes do happen and unfortunately it is probably not realistic to expect that ALL terrorist acts will stop, especially in the short term. How should Israel react? Well, IMO it depends on what the Palestinians will do to try and stop terrorism. If they will just pay lip service and do nothing about the incitement, nothing to outlaw the terrorist organisations, nothing to prosecute the perpetrators and nothing to disarm the terrorist organisations, then it's obviously up to Israel to act and to defend it's own citizens. However, if the Palestinian authorities will act in good faith, and they will both be seen to be doing the job and actually doing it, then Israel should let them take care of the problem and offer whatever help that they may ask (within reason).

[Mediocrates]

sure was a lot of talk about "civil war" if the govt carried out its position....

hate to break it to you ....but look out your window....the israeli public you see today....is the majority of us israelis.....and we prefer our rabbis and other torah leaders in the synagage where they belong..dealing with religious matters only and staying out of the political decisions. That become clear as day when the gaza was evacuted:

no messiah came to save them,
no 100,000 israelis came to stop the army
those in the army that deserted could be counted on one hand.



Your post strikes as one from someone who is happy when there is even no opportunity for political dispute. That's really what I think amazes me most of all from the pull-out-niks. Not that their solution makes or does not make practical sense or that their methods were appropriate or fascistic. It's that they deny even the possibility that there could or would be a political discussion on the matter. One can imagine a day when turnabout is fair play and you'll hear the pull-out-niks scream to the heavens they don't believe in how brutal and unfair. Ah well, I'm sure you believe you've reached The End of History and nothing bad or contentious wil ever happen. I'm sure you're right.

[pelsar]

Nope, no problem with that at all.

When your enemies side with your strategies, you know you're in trouble. When you can't distinguish your enemies from your own people, then you're doomed.

all of the above mentioned groups have their own viewpoints...some i will disagree with some i wont...but you wont hear from me that they are "traitors".....some of those beliefs will also conincide with the palestenians...depending upon which your talking to...thats the way life is.

your statement that "cant distinguish your enemies from your own people"...is exactly the problem you have with tolerence in the above groups You have "no problem with them" on the conditiion that they can distinguish according to the WAY YOU BELIEVE......seems you do have a problem with the list....at least admit it.

[pelsar]

Your post strikes as one from someone who is happy when there is even no opportunity for political dispute. That's really what I think amazes me most of all from the pull-out-niks. Not that their solution makes or does not make practical sense or that their methods were appropriate or fascistic. It's that they deny even the possibility that there could or would be a political discussion on the matter. One can imagine a day when turnabout is fair play and you'll hear the pull-out-niks scream to the heavens they don't believe in how brutal and unfair. Ah well, I'm sure you believe you've reached The End of History and nothing bad or contentious wil ever happen. I'm sure you're right.

perhaps you dont live in israel then....no opportunity for political dispute?.....let me help: the disputes were daily in the papers, radios, in the streets,....a few protests...but not the kind we saw during oslo....meaning they was quite limited in size using lots of children.

for those who were against, it was painfully obvious that they didnt have the majority with them.

But then thats how the democracy in israel works...change occures through mass protests (100,000 and up gets the politicians attentions)

no political discussion?.....wrong county.

[pelsar]

Pelsar, Now, here is a question to you: You say that "the palestenains get to prove themselves...". What, in your opinion, should happen if they fail the test and continue their terrorism against Israel? How should Israel react? Do you think they should then still continue to give up more land?

failure would mean they shoot at us....our response is simple:

artillary/air force bombings and tank fire...crossborder incidents should be treated as such.

palestenains who jump the fence should be shot at first.....

no more land given to them, until gaza is a peaceful neighbor and their society has developed into such a thing... if possible

[Reffo]

Pelsar

Then, basically, we are in agreement. But here is another question to you: What should be Israel's reaction if the attacks stop from Gaza but continue from the West Bank?

[redcake]

your statement that "cant distinguish your enemies from your own people"...is exactly the problem you have with tolerence in the above groups You have "no problem with them" on the conditiion that they can distinguish according to the WAY YOU BELIEVE......seems you do have a problem with the list....at least admit it.

What psycho babble. There are groups you named I agree with, and some I disagree with...and I'm human, and opinionated, and honest, and so what?

Not only did you miss Reffo's point, but you obviously misunderstood my post entirely when I said (and I'll rephrase it for you) "You're doomed if you can't distinguish between your enemies and your own people"....and since you Pelsar, are doomed....I'll clarify... I meant the enemies are those who wish to eradicate Israel, and push the Jews into the ocean....and if you have to waste your time infighting, wasting your time by fixating on the polarization between factions, you're fighting the wrong battle. I think you're incredibly confused about what the real issues are which stand in your way of Israeli functioning as one harmonius wonderland with group sing alongs at the Knirret.

[pelsar]

Pelsar

Then, basically, we are in agreement. But here is another question to you: What should be Israel's reaction if the attacks stop from Gaza but continue from the West Bank?

trickier...because thats also a real possibility... if gaza works then the belief that the palestenians can actually make a real society and live as neighbors with us will become "real' to probably the majority of the israelis.

but not just us..but to them as well..a change in mindset for most of us.

bottomline?...if they prove themselves in gaza then we have no choice but to give them their state in the westbank as well. The shootings will go on as that is what gave them their "state" in gaza...but if those in gaza are living peacefully.....then they'll get their state in the westbank as well...it would be impossible to justify the occupation for security reasons if that reason no longer exists.

and as the gaza pullout showed...messianic zionism where the land is the most precious, doesnt "speak" to most israelis.

[pelsar]

"You're doomed if you can't distinguish between your enemies and your own people"....and since you Pelsar, are doomed....I'll clarify... I meant the enemies are those who wish to eradicate Israel, and push the Jews into the ocean....and if you have to waste your time infighting, wasting your time by fixating on the polarization between factions, you're fighting the wrong battle. I think you're incredibly confused about what the real issues are which stand in your way of Israeli functioning as one harmonius wonderland with group sing alongs at the Knirret.

confused?...hardly.... i can distinguish between enemies who want to eradicate israel...them i shoot at. and others with whom i disagree..them i argue with.

one group gets bullets from me, the other gets words....the second group is hardly "traitors" or doomed, they are part of the mosaic of israel..no more and no less. We're quite talented, over here in israel, we can argue with each other and shoot at the enemy...

your "dooming" me shows your intolerance thats all. The issues that stand in our way...is exactly what your talking about: intolerance...claiming that those who disagree with you are "doomed" is hardly an example of tolerance.

[Reffo]

trickier...because thats also a real possibility... if gaza works then the belief that the palestenians can actually make a real society and live as neighbors with us will become "real' to probably the majority of the israelis.

but not just us..but to them as well..a change in mindset for most of us.

bottomline?...if they prove themselves in gaza then we have no choice but to give them their state in the westbank as well. The shootings will go on as that is what gave them their "state" in gaza...but if those in gaza are living peacefully.....then they'll get their state in the westbank as well...it would be impossible to justify the occupation for security reasons if that reason no longer exists.

and as the gaza pullout showed...messianic zionism where the land is the most precious, doesnt "speak" to most israelis.Yes, it will be very tricky especially if they get their cherished free land corridor between Gaza and the WB. They will then get new sophisticated weapons into Gaza via Egypt (the border inspections that the Egyptians agreed to do are already a joke). These weapons will then be smuggled to the WB and will be used against Israel from there.

If that indeed will happen, I for one would hope that Israel will immediately stop offering further concessions and it should certainly not trade any more land for so called peace, until the Palestinians see reason and start acting more reasonably. What do you think?

[redcake]

confused?...hardly.... i can distinguish between enemies who want to eradicate israel...them i shoot at. and others with whom i disagree..them i argue with.

Okay Sgt. Moonbeam, and how can you distinguish which enemies you shoot at, and which enemies you negotiate with? Derrrrr.

[pelsar]

Yes, it will be very tricky especially if they get their cherished free land corridor between Gaza and the WB. They will then get new sophisticated weapons into Gaza via Egypt (the border inspections that the Egyptians agreed to do are already a joke). These weapons will then be smuggled to the WB and will be used against Israel from there.

If that indeed will happen, I for one would hope that Israel will immediately stop offering further concessions and it should certainly not trade any more land for so called peace, until the Palestinians see reason and start acting more reasonably. What do you think?

i think the whole process has to be "piecemeal"...with us using overwhelming force when they "get out of hand"..

meaning no land corridor for a long long time...let them go through egypt-jordan-westbank.

problem is not just the immediate "country" they make..its also 20 years down the line....will their pseudo democracy have a coup in 20 years and we get ourselves a mini iran next door?

so even if it gaza works...and then the westbank works...given the "arab culture and history I really have no confidence that this will work out long term.....

as far as their "border checks"....i really dont think anybody expected anything more than what is happening now.....as long as they are "there" and we are "here" i'm for the seperation....I prefer to shoot from afar using long range equipment than sneaking in the back alleys of jebalya or riding shot gun for a school bus full of kids as they pass the sqaulor of a refugee camp.

actually there problems are just beginning....bringing in the refugees from jordan or lebanon.....i dont even want to think about it, unlike the jews who came from around the world..all of these groups have no real loyalty to anything other than their local imman, the gun and belly full of hate and false illusions of their "palestine"

[pelsar]

Okay Sgt. Moonbeam, and how can you distinguish which enemies you shoot at, and which enemies you negotiate with? Derrrrr.

israelis i talk to, whether they are haridi, left, right, anti religous, cult, jew for jesus, arab, druze, bedouin etc. i give them the benefit of the doubt that their belief what ever it is, is based on their caring for israel the country and the citizens...and therefore respect it..as the default and dont insult their beliefs by calling them "traitors" etc. Sometimes you discover that they have been places, and done things that one only reads about in spy 'fiction" novels...

palestenians who have a gun pointed at me i shoot....

palestenains who talk....i also talk, with a loaded gun pointed at them....

[KettleWhistle]

thats what people who are against democracies promote in their own country: kill the leader who was elected that you disagree with.

Democracy is a country ran by the will of the people. Rabin was ignoring the will of the people when he brought the terrorists to Israel and gave them land, money, and weapons. He had to be taken out in order to institute the will of the people, not to abandon it. And if the MKs at the time were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the treason treo--Rabin, Peres, and Beilin (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44)--would've been rotting in jail for their crimes.

[pelsar]

Democracy is a country ran by the will of the people. Rabin was ignoring the will of the people when he brought the terrorists to Israel and gave them land, money, and weapons. He had to be taken out in order to institute the will of the people, not to abandon it. And if the MKs at the time were doing what they were supposed to be doing, the treason treo--Rabin, Peres, and Beilin (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=141295&postcount=44)--would've been rotting in jail for their crimes.

guess you dont understand what democracies and leaders are all about....."taking out a leader"...is what arab dictatorships and others do...not western democracies. and also the MKs were also involved...so they should have been 'strung up as well"......anybody else on your list?...guess people like me as well...my family, neighborhood, army unit....gonna be a long long long list.

the "will of the people"?...huh?... i dont recall millions in the streets protesting?...i do recall protests that involved 100,000 but that is a very very long way of being the "will of the people"..and i do recall a very very close election soon after that..will of the people?...at best a bit over 50% hardly the "will of the people"...but democracies are not built upon polls. They are built around choosing leaders making decisions for all, and if you disagree you protest and scream you dont go about killing those you dont like.....

anybody who believes that a PM + members of the knesset should be murdered for making decisions they dont agree with is not one that believes in democracy...we call that facism.

[Reffo]

Pelsar

OK, I have no problems with your analysis and by and large I agree with you except on this point:
I prefer to shoot from afar using long range equipment than sneaking in the back alleys of jebalya or riding shot gun for a school bus full of kids as they pass the sqaulor of a refugee camp.Although I do understand your desire to deal with them from the distance, unfortunately though if it's war, all options of response should remain open. Also, don't forget the reaction sanctimonious reactions of Israel's many critics in the world. Their criticisms of Israel will not diminish if Israel will "shoot from afar, using long range equipment". I can already hear their accusations about "War Crimes". So, unfortunately, life for Israel and Israelis will continue to be complicated, no matter what it does.

[pelsar]

Pelsar

OK, I have no problems with your analysis and by and large I agree with you except on this point:
Although I do understand your desire to deal with them from the distance, unfortunately though if it's war, all options of response should remain open. Also, don't forget the reaction sanctimonious reactions of Israel's many critics in the world. Their criticisms of Israel will not diminish if Israel will "shoot from afar, using long range equipment". I can already hear their accusations about "War Crimes". So, unfortunately, life for Israel and Israelis will continue to be complicated, no matter what it does.

war is war...but if we have some sort of "quasi war"...then i prefer the air force and tanks....if we take back the westbank and gaza we have to basically flatten them to the ground. Wars really only end when the enemy is totally demoralized to the point of "giving up all hope'...that really only happens when they are so overwhelmed and utterly destroyed....yes lots of "war crimes".

i've read where its best to have massive force used, lots of casulties in the short run...then have these things dragged out...and i guess were a prime example of both (6 day war vs intifadas)

anyway....we shall see...the upcoming leaders are now 20yr old kids...they will be deciding our fates

[KettleWhistle]

guess you dont understand what democracies and leaders are all about....."taking out a leader"...is what arab dictatorships and others do...not western democracies. ...
anybody who believes that a PM + members of the knesset should be murdered for making decisions they dont agree with is not one that believes in democracy...we call that facism.

LOL... Fascism is what Rabin's government was trying to institute. Fascism is a near-to-full dictatorship that ignores the will of the people. He had to be taken out because his actions were undemocratic. It has nothing to do with you or your family--only with those who oppose democracy and use corrupt methods to get to positions of leadership.

You and yours need a dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a few history textbooks to learn what words democracy, patriotism, and citizeship really mean.

[pelsar]

LOL... Fascism is what Rabin's government was trying to institute. Fascism is a near-to-full dictatorship that ignores the will of the people. He had to be taken out because his actions were undemocratic. It has nothing to do with you or your family--only with those who oppose democracy and use corrupt methods to get to positions of leadership.
.

oh i get it....an elected official, supported by the parliment in a democratic country can be taken out by those who believe in democracy by murder....so that would include Bush and Blair since the polls show they are not very popular right now and therefore their decisions are "undemocratic" (what does that even mean?). How about Begin....should he have been taken out..he too wasnt so popular...Ben Gurion, also not very demoratic?... Golda?...Reagan? ...whats the criteria used for deciding that a western leader is no longer democratic enough and its ok to kill him

btw....which "will of the people" are your talking about?....is there a "will of the people" that I dont know about, because the will of the "people that i know" were for him.... is "your will of the people superiour to "my will of the people"....

is this "will of the people" related to stevek "living god"...its all so confusing to me when everyone else is telling me what "everyone else is or should be believing in......except that nobody else does

[KettleWhistle]

Nice try to scew what I said, not! It's not about "democracy by murder" It is about instituting the will of the people. If Bush was to bring Bin Laden to the States, he'd be out of the office in no time. Because that would've been the will of the people. A part of the true democracy is controlling over politicians who abuse their power. With Rabin, these controls failed very miserably. That's why he was killed, and deservingly so--that was the only way to protect the country from him.

"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
http://www.pineywoodsplace.com/IMAGES/00.gif -- Thomas Jefferson

[pelsar]

Nice try to scew what I said, not! It's not about "democracy by murder" It is about instituting the will of the people.


What will of the people are you talking about?.....according to my information the "will of the people" were behind rabin....

er i didnt twist your words...you said it: democractically elected leaders can be killed if they dont follow what certain people think...."will of the people" is nothing more some kind of play on words for people to justify taking power in their own hands (as in the USSR).

you can now explain this "will of the people" and how is it measured...and for how long is it good for...weekly? monthly? annually? or is it based on a particular policy?....can we include MKs in that as well?...where does this ability to kill politicians who dont follow the "will of the people" end?...how about mayors?...local councilman?

and whos "will" gets precedent over other wills ...do you do it by polls? or by who has the most guns (I think thats how the palestenians measure the "will of the people"...they also use that terminolgy alot, right before they string up somebody)

[Ophra]

Pelsar ..... I just found this ... take a mo and read it ... says it all IMHO.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1497

[KettleWhistle]

What will of the people are you talking about?.....according to my information the "will of the people" were behind rabin....

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

[pelsar]

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

you have yet to explain who are these 'will of the people"...how did you measure it? what "overwhelming majority...i was here during that period and sure dont remember any "overwhelming majority...and infact the elections right after that showed us that the "overwhelming majority was non existant...conflicted yes...overwhelming?....hardly

...i'm waiting......

(when was the last time the US had a referendum?...before the civil war?. wwII, vietnam? korea?, wwI?, civil rights laws?)

[pelsar]

Pelsar ..... I just found this ... take a mo and read it ... says it all IMHO.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1497
fundamentalism...they look the same, talk the same, use the same phrases..and are all interchangeable

the atlantic monthly had an article about the "students" of iran that took over the US embassy years ago....a bit bitter they are....they didnt understand what fundamentalism was all about...now they do

[Ophra]

Who was "behind him" aside from you, Ophra, and Gush Shoalom (pun intended)? Overwhelming majority was against Oslo and against him. And in truly democratic countries, major policy decisions are always being put on national referendums. Would Oslo have had the required support from the Israelis if it was voted upon? You know as well as anyone else that it wouldn't. People willed for peace, not for Oslo, and not for the treason treo.

Strange :confused: ...... I was in Rabin square the night he was shot..... I have this weird recollection of 10's of thousands and 10's of thousands of people around about me ..... maybe I was mistaken and it was just me,pelsar and "Gush Shoalom" ??? :rolleyes:

[KettleWhistle]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it. The Gush Shoaloms and ISMs couldn't defeat Bibi even after all the spineless nincompoops like you were shocked into voting Labor for no reason other than that the traitor was finally taken out. That was the one and only reason for a close election. But nice try, nevertheless. Keep on with the revisionism!

And the U.S. never had such issues to vote on. But Canada did vote on Quebec, didn't it?

[Ophra]

fundamentalism...they look the same, talk the same, use the same phrases..and are all interchangeable

the atlantic monthly had an article about the "students" of iran that took over the US embassy years ago....a bit bitter they are....they didnt understand what fundamentalism was all about...now they do

Ok then.... my take on KW is ... that he is a far right Russian Atheist fundamentalist .... who can't tell right from wrong ... and likes to pee on other peoples Heroes memorials . :D ..... apart from that he is a nothing but a boasting boring windbag .

[KettleWhistle]

Additionally, in 2004 several localities in the U.S. voted on whether to do various administrative redistricting. Several towns that are currently incorporated into the Greater Los Angeles Area in California voted on whether they should secede, as did a town in Vermont that wanted to be redistricted to Maryland.

[pelsar]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it. The Gush Shoaloms and ISMs couldn't defeat Bibi even after all the spineless nincompoops like you were shocked into voting Labor for no reason other than that the traitor was finally taken out. That was the one and only reason for a close election. But nice try, nevertheless. Keep on with the revisionism!

And the U.S. never had such issues to vote on. But Canada did vote on Quebec, didn't it?

the amercian Civil War?...that wasnt serious enough for a vote? civil rights (had call out the national guard)

and you have failed to show me the "will of the people"...bibi barely squeaked by...and then lost to labor....so where was this "will of the people" that was so overwhelming?.....

they were "shocked" in to voting labor"...what kind of "will of the people is that....so let me get this straight....even when the people voted for labor they really meant to vote for bibi because they were part of the "overwhelming will of the people..but they didnt know that...but you do?.....

kind of stretching it here arent we?...i admit this "will of the people" is getting harder and harder to find....i mean their hiding behind voting for labor?...is that what your saying?..by the way...whats the "will of the people say now?..if sharon wins again (and I will be voting for him)...does that mean those who do really dont mean to..but are still in shock from the gaza pullout?...

oh yea...can we kill sharon too?....your version of democracy in action

[sharonbn]

I was here in 1993, proudly wearing a t-shirt that had a portrait of Rabin with words "kill the traitor" underneath it.
please don't try to come here again and wear shirts with the same sloagan with portrait of Sharon. I will make a citizen's arrest...

[pelsar]

please don't try to come here again and wear shirts with the same sloagan with portrait of Sharon. I will make a citizen's arrest...

he must be a very brave person....after all he couldnt even wear the shirt on the outside even though the "will of the people" were behind him....

but he does seem to have a problem finding this "will of the people"...you know the ones that voted for labor because they were in shock.....how does