Warning: Christian Missionaries in Israel

[Toga]

As in the past, missionaries today spend substantial amounts of money establishing churches, hospitals, charities, feeding kitchens and workshops where Christian publications are given out for free or at low cost. These campaigns are well thought out, with Christian leaders relying on the ignorance of the Jews so as not to have their plans thwarted. In a successful campaign that helped those early new immigrants with food, money and social services, they succeeded in spreading their gospel. Their hidden agenda is today barely noticed, covered up in layers of what seems like intrinsic sacrifice on the behalf of Jews they just want to help.

Today, there is no longer a small campaign by a single group of missionaries to convert Jews in Israel, but a strategic and well-crafted plan, funded by billions of dollars, to make it happen. This is no exaggeration; literally billions are being spent to convert Jews across the world and specifically in Israel. There is a book written by a notorious Christian preacher and missionary in which he describes how he and his wife made aliyah several years ago. In his Messianic Jewish Manifesto, the author calls for Christians to go ahead with the attempt at aliyah. This man is a member of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, the world's most aggressive Christian missionary support and management group, an organization founded by none other than Reverend Billy Graham. A highly secretive organization, based in Denmark with a wide global network, its membership includes every major Protestant and Messianic missionary group in the world. In Israel alone, its membership totals at least six agencies, six congregations and 29 individuals.

The "Thailand Report on Jewish People", developed at a meeting of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, made mention of the fact that Christians need to increase their activity against the Jews, going as far as identifying Jewish targets as Ashkenazi and Sephardic. They have already converted thousands of Jews in schools and universities throughout Israel. They say that more thought should be given to the nature of the training necessary for reaching the different segments of the community: "We observe that some training is more geared to reaching Orthodox Jews, whereas secular Jews form a great majority in most communities."

American Evangelists Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have both been involved in Christian proselytizing by radio. Robertson started broadcasting from across the Lebanese border in 1979. At one time, he wanted to put up an antenna in Samaria, which had the capability of beaming radio signals to Jerusalem, but he was challenged by local residents. Today, because of the liberalism inherent in the Israeli government, Christian evangelicals have been issued licenses to operate radio stations based out of Jerusalem. These stations have been given the right to continue their work of converting the Jews to Christianity, while Jewish radio stations that teach Torah continue to be banned or face difficulty obtaining permits.

There is not only a radio campaign, but a television one as well. It was in 1979 that Robertson's organization began broadcasting Christian programming 28 hours a week in Israel. In 1982, Hope TV station in Lebanon was donated to Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network and became Middle East Television. In 1997, Middle East Television began Christian evangelism on the AMOS-1 communication satellite over the Middle East to a potential audience of 200 million people in 15 nations, including Israel. They broadcast their idolatry over Israel's channel 24, where you can watch The Harvest Show - and it is not a vegetable they seek to harvest, it's Jews. They broadcast in Hebrew, while shows in English have Hebrew subtitles. They show programs such as the Beverly Hillbillies, Head of the Class, and The Andy Griffith Show mixed in among Pat Robertson's 700 Club, This Is Your Day, Evangelist Joyce Meyer, Dr. Lester Sumrall, Another Day of Victory and Harvest. The Jews in Israel are virtually bombarded by television shows that teach them they are incomplete unless they accept the Christian way of life and belief.

Christian evangelical groups in Israel run something called the Joseph Project. It is an organization designed to look like a humanitarian organization, but is actually a missionary based group that targets new, Russian-speaking immigrants. The Joseph Project is a division of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. This organization is endorsed by mainstream Christian organizations, including the Christian Coalition of America, Christian Broadcasting Network, Promise Keepers and Pat Boone, entertainer and Christian evangelist. This group was founded in February of 1996 on the principles that:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=5576

[Luke90]

Toga, if I recall correctly you're not a practising Jew. Given that, I find it hard to understand why you get so upset about Christian missionaries.
I was brought up a christian but I don't believe in it anymore and I really don't care if anyone wants to convert christians to their faith.
This isn't a criticism, I'm just curious as to why it bothers you so much.

[Ariksan]

Luke, By your standard of practising Jew most Christians are not practising Christians either - still they are members of their Church, get a Christian burial and may share some ideas or have at least part of their identity and culture defined by their religion - even if they not follow every single rule. So why should we 'not_so_religious' Jews not care about missionary criminals? Of course we care about it.

[minusthejihad]

The problem is Christians solicit and Jews dont. Much of this is done quietly and quite dishonestly (ie: Wings of Angels/Eagles charity that you see on infomercials on TV at night). And there are quite a number of Jews ignorant and gullible enough to be brainwashed into incorporating a middle-man to g-d into their life. While this is happening, Judaism isn't gaining as many members through volunteered "official" conversions as they are loosing to "humanism/secularism, conversions, intermarriage, and "non-official" conversions". So on top of the natural run-off of non-religious Jews who loose their identity, Jews are bombarded with missionaries. It's like taking money from the blind.

[Toga]

Toga, if I recall correctly you're not a practising Jew. Given that, I find it hard to understand why you get so upset about Christian missionaries.
I was brought up a christian but I don't believe in it anymore and I really don't care if anyone wants to convert christians to their faith.
This isn't a criticism, I'm just curious as to why it bothers you so much.

One has to understand the nature of Judaism and Jewishness. A Jew does not have to be religious to puke at the sight of the missionaries. We have a long history with the European Christianity, which, by the way, must be differentiated from the American Christian movement. Don't forget the majority of Jews were exterminated in Europe. The Christian sales efforts vis-a-vis the Jews have continued for the last 2000 years. Most Jews are not buying that stuff and yet the sales efforts continue. We have our own faith that is applicable to us. Why do we need to buy the foreign beliefs when we have our own? The Jews do not go around the world trying to missionize the non-Jews. We greatly respect all other beliefs and would appreciate if our faith is treated in the same fashion. You would think that after 2000 years the salesmen who target the Jews would finally get the message but, unfortunately, they have not.

[Mediocrates]

I don't know where you live but down here in the Bible Belt about half of the cable channels are evangelical. Most of them are locals and preachers who are trolling for dollars and there's the usual assortment of nutcases, holyrollers and lost tribes. The rest are the big names like Hinn, Robertson, Josephine the Plumber, etc...

BTW the Witnesses came to my house this week. I asked them "Will it save any of us time to just tell you I'm Jewish?" They said no not really, but I snatched up their Watchtowers and told them to have a nice day all the same. And once in a while the two men on bicycles come by, pleasant enough fellows but I've made it clear they're wasting their time. Doesn't seem to bother them. Odd. (some of you probably know what I'm talking about.....)

Anyway it's hard to pin down who all these channels are aimed at. Maybe just people who already know about them and send them faith offerings. Maybe it's just backfill for people who can't make it church. Maybe just lonely insomniacs. Ab Buster. Click. Kevin Trudeau. Click. The Zion Cathedral Hour of prayerful faith healing. Bingo. I have no idea. Now there's one guy who wears a Tallis and kippah and looks like an Rab but quotes mostly from the Apostles and Prophets. I can't make up my mind what he's after.

But I only know one so called messianic Jew aka born-again. I can't say that I've seen all this conversion effort as all too successful. In fact I know far more young people who experiment with Shomer Shabbos than those who go the other way. Usually it doesn't stick but its enough to give them a foundation for when they're older and on their own.

I tend to think that the apostolics are cherry picking young people who aren't that attached in the first place and would have strayed at this point in their life, Baptists or no. They may eventually return to us, we hope they do. We wish them well if they don't.

[Luke90]

Thanks for your responses. When Toga said he wasn't a practising Jew I hadn't realised how close a connection with Judaism that could still entail.
I'm familiar with JWs. The irritating thing is that I'd love to have a good argument with them but they've only come to my door once and never came back. Yet everyone else can't get rid of them.

[Mediocrates]

One time they came to my house when I had a Hazmat suit on. They asked If I was busy. God bless the innocent.

[Toga]

You are have to understand the Jewish culture. The Jews have very little respect for authority if any. The Romans took over many lands but the greatest challenge for them were the Jews. Jews do not like be controlled and they definitely don't want to control other people. Sharon even addressed that point during his speech at the UN. Take a look at the number of the political streams in Israel. It does not exist anywhere but Israel especially when one factors in the tiny Jewish population.

I don't want to insult anyone's beliefs but the whole idea of a Jew that the Jews have to respect and love as the son of G-d is contrary to the Jewish nature. Also, why would a Jew buy into the other people's faith when not only the Jews have their own beliefs but also the very people who try to turn them away from Judaism latched themselves on to the Jewish faith? Apparently, they saw something good in Judaism if they attached themselves to it.

[Justcurious]

I had Mormons visiting me in the 70s. I invited them in, because I wanted to learn American English. However poor their Finnish was, they insisted on speaking Finnish. After one or two visits they gave up, since I refused to communicate with them in my mother tongue.

Maybe they also considred me a hopeless case religionwise.

[minusthejihad]

When JWs or Born Agains come visit, i usually drench my hands in Ketchup and come to door and say, "I'm preforming an abortion, can you come back in 15 minutes, I want to talk about where I'm staying in Heaven?"

[SteveK]

I maintain dialog with devout Christian Zionists at www.thewaytozion.com.
I accept that they have faith in the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

But, Jews do need to remind Christians (old translation using 'thou' and 'thee'):


Deuteronomy 4:10 - 4:20

... the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horev, when the Lord said to me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. And you came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven, with darkness , clouds, and thick darkness. And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire: you heard the voice of words, but saw no form; only a voice. ... Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horev out of the midst of the fire: lest you become corrupt, and make a carved idol, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of any thing that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth; and lest thou lift up thy eyes to heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, thou shouldst be misled to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord the God has allotted to all the nations under the whole heaven. But the Lord has taken you, and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Mitzrayim, to be to him a people of inheritance, as you are this day.


Deuteronomy 13:2 - 13:5

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke to thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou has not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God puts you to the proof, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul..."

[Toga]

It is hard to understand how the Europeans who claimed to be born in the name of a Jew, lived and died in the name of a Jew could be so vicious and hateful of the living Jews.

[Mediocrates]

All Hail Satan: It's not just a great idea, it's the law.

[Mercury]

The Romans took over many lands but the greatest challenge for them were the Jews.

I'm curious on what historical evidence you base this claim.

[Mediocrates]

What part of that is your question?

[Mercury]

What part of that is your question?

According to what I know of roman history gauls, etruscs, cathagenians, parthians etc made far more troubles for romans than Judea even during the worst years of its rebellion. So I wondered if I missed something.

[SteveK]

According to what I know of roman history gauls, etruscs, cathagenians, parthians etc made far more troubles for romans than Judea even during the worst years of its rebellion. So I wondered if I missed something.


Well, back in 81 CE, there were folks who probably thought a little different than you about the decisive importance of the conquest of the Jewish Nation.

And, given that Titus had become "a god" after his death, and before its erection, I don't think that a god would have been defamed by his worshippers by commemoration of any lesser conquest:


http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/titus/titus.html

Located at the highest point of the Via Sacra which leads to the Roman Forum, this triumphal arch, with only one passageway, commemorates Titus' conquest of Judea which ended the Jewish Wars (66-70). Engaged fluted columns frame the passageway, the spandrels depict Victories in relief, the attic contains an inscription (see below) and the internal faces of the passageway depict in relief triumphal processions (see below). The arch was erected posthumously, after Titus had already become a "god."

The scene depicts the triumphal procession with the booty from the temple at Jerusalem--the sacred Menorah, the Table of the Shewbread shown at an angle, and the silver trumpets which called the Jews to Rosh Hashanah. The bearers of the booty wear laurel crowns and those carrying the candlestick have pillows on their shoulders. Placards in the background explain the spoils or the victories Titus won

[determinism]

Toga,

as far as i understand the christian mumbo jumbo they do not consider Jesus to be a jew. He is God's son and was killed by the jews. What is indeed fascinating is that the church killed none believers left and right irrespective of the fact that Jesus preached absolute peaceableness.

as a general question...why is it considered a big tragedy if religions die out? if anything the world would probably be more peaceful if everyone would have converted to lets say buddhism, jewdaism or christianity 1000 years ago. one less difference and reason to kill each other.

[Toga]

Toga, as far as i understand the christian mumbo jumbo they do not consider Jesus to be a jew.

So the man, supposedly born in Bethlehem, Judea, was not Jewish? Do you think he was Austrian?

as a general question...why is it considered a big tragedy if religions die out? if anything the world would probably be more peaceful if everyone would have converted to lets say buddhism, jewdaism or christianity 1000 years ago. one less difference and reason to kill each other.

If you are white, why don't you turn black, so there will be less racial divide?
If you are straight, why don't you become gay, so that there will be no sexual orientation divide?
If you are short why don't you become tall? According to some statistical data the tall people get better jobs.
If you are hairless why don't you get some hair? It will keep you warm during the cold Austrian winters.

Do you get my drift?

There is beauty in every shape and color.

Judaism is a phenominal religion. It is as huge and rich as the universe. It has brought to this world ethics, morality, civility and dignity. It has sustained the Jews for almost 6000 years. It kept the Jewish optimism and belief in the good of this humanity even when the European murderers were dragging the Jews into the gas chambers. Without Judaism we would not have been who we are. We would not have been Jewish. Do you want us to cease being Jewish because your kind has wanted to kill all Jews off?

[Robby]

Toga,

as far as i understand the christian mumbo jumbo they do not consider Jesus to be a jew.

Who said this? The gospels make it quite clear Jesus was Jewish. Or can't you read the sign that was above his cross?

Now, as far as missionaries go, Jesus was quite that those who were representatives for him would be persecuted. Having gone through the Perspectives course on missionary studies, I can tell you the modern Christian missionary is supposed to be very sensitive to the culture which they are addressing. Of course, and unfortunately, you will have those who try to take advantage of others in the name of God... But there are quite a few good and honest Christian missionary organizations.

There are many things the Christian missionary is required to do. One is to build a bridge between the two cultures by understanding the peoples--their customs and language. And to help build up the infrastructure (i.e.--drill water wells, better sewage, hospitals and medicine, schools and supplies, farming...). Two is, once a connection is made between cultures, the missionary explains the gospel in a way people will understand, so they can make their own decision, but without any forcefull persuasion and with respect of the people's customs. Three is if there are decisions for Christ, then to help them build and organize a church, and train native persons to become leaders of that church.

In a pristeen world, we might be able to do as anthropologists suggest and leave primitive native tribes alone. The reality is if Christian missionaries do not reach an abandoned or unreached people group, then someone will, and that someone may not always have the best interest of the people in mind. You may not like the fact that Christian missionaries try explain the gospel to people, but they do help them improve their lives, and it is what Jesus Christ commanded for his followers to do.

*Some people may object to my use of the word improve, because there's a view that technology tends to make life more complicated.

As for evangelizing to the Jewish people of Israel, I know the Knesset passed an anti-missionary law in 1977 to silence Christian witness. Then there was similar legislation introduced in the late 90's. I'm not exactly sure what's going on now, other than there are still negative attitudes toward Christian missionary activity in Israel.


For reference:
http://www.perspectives.org/

[Toga]

What is the difference between the Hamas terrorists and the missionaries?

The Hamas terrorists want to kill the Jewish bodies. The missionaries want to kill the Jewish souls.

Robby, one of the tricks used by the missionaries is to divert any converstation or debate toward your Christian beliefs. Look, we respect and appreciate your faith. Just do yourself and us a big favor, do not pest us and no not post any Messianic websites or bring your stuff to us. Leave us your phone number. When we need you we will call you.

There is an excellent Jewish website full of the missionary alerts and explanations of the missionary tricks:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

[determinism]

robby,

jesus was born to jewish people but he was not jewish ... he was not even a human. the INRI (jesus from nazareth king of the jews) sign reflects that the romans tried to taunt him by calling him king of the jews. i am quite sure this is the standard opinion of the catholics and JWs.

if missionaries help people then thats ok. but the missionary activities particularly of sects like the JWs is dispicable. Once trapped in the religion the people can't get out.

imo its time to put all religions where they belong...the trash dump of history.

[Robby]

robby,

jesus was born to jewish people but he was not jewish ... he was not even a human. the INRI (jesus from nazareth king of the jews) sign reflects that the romans tried to taunt him by calling him king of the jews.

imo its time to put all religions where they belong...the trash dump of history

Oh baloney Determinism... You're just proving you don't know what your talking about when it comes to Jesus. Go and read the gospels...

For crying out loud, Jesus was descended from the line of David! I suppose you think David was never a Jew either?! Everything about Jesus was jewish, from his way of life, manner of speech, the customs he practiced, to the recitation of the Torah and writings of the prophets--known backward and forward. Read the sign: KING of the JEWS!

Furthermore, he was in fact fully human and fully God. He had the perfect body of a man and the perfect spirit of God indwelling.

What's more, I know Jesus personally--He's Jewish!

Now, in regard those roach motels where people can get in, but they can't get out. What you are referring to are cults and do not reflect true Christianity. I don't like religion either, basically religion is a system for people beg for demands in elaborate rituals which are created men and then tell God to get off their back. That's not Christianity. Christianity is not a religion. It's a personal relationship with God. One has a familial bond with the Father through his son Jesus Christ.

(Mods, I'm sorry if I might be bodering on proselytizing here, I'm just trying to set the record straight.)

[Toga]

There is absolutely no evidence of anything you said but I am not going to debate with you. You are proselytizing and you come here for that purpose. You are a pest of the worst kind.

A Jewish response to missionaries can be found in another very good website:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

[Luke90]

jesus was born to jewish people but he was not jewish ... he was not even a human. the INRI (jesus from nazareth king of the jews) sign reflects that the romans tried to taunt him by calling him king of the jews. i am quite sure this is the standard opinion of the catholics and JWs.
I'm not sure about the JWs and Catholics but baptists and anglicans would consider him to be Jewish. Your non-human argument would certainly hold no water with most Christian denominations.

[determinism]

robby,

so in your opinion jesus was actually the son of joseph and maria?

What's more, I know Jesus personally--He's Jewish!

that statement says it all. :rolleyes:

[Mercury]

Well, back in 81 CE, there were folks who probably thought a little different than you about the decisive importance of the conquest of the Jewish Nation.

And, given that Titus had become "a god" after his death, and before its erection, I don't think that a god would have been defamed by his worshippers by commemoration of any lesser conquest:

According to my memory Titus was an emperor for about a year. So as far as his reign was concerned (or rather a short period before his reign), Judea may be considered as the most important EXTERNAL chalenge to the romans. This is still a bit far from declaring them the most important chalenge to Rome over its 1000 years long history.

[SteveK]

According to my memory Titus was an emperor for about a year. So as far as his reign was concerned (or rather a short period before his reign), Judea may be considered as the most important EXTERNAL chalenge to the romans. This is still a bit far from declaring them the most important chalenge to Rome over its 1000 years long history.

Is that all for Rome,--- 1000 years of "long history"?????

The Jews have an unbroken history and passing of heritage through the generations for 3,500+ years from the time of Abraham. The Jews have seen it all.

And, the Jews are still alive and their sovereign Jewish Homeland is back.

[determinism]

steveK,

what is alive are the descendant...that is true for the jewish as well as the roman or any other people.

[SteveK]

steveK,

what is alive are the descendant...that is true for the jewish as well as the roman or any other people.

What is alive is the Jewish Nation,--- with all the potential to become once again a united sovereign one under God and Torah. The heritage was passed in-tact through thousands of years of generations.

Who talks today of the Roman Nation, let alone its empire of antiquity?

[determinism]

Steve,

yes the jewish nation is alive after 2000 years. But i would assume there were substantial changes in the jewish society compared to 2000 years ago just as in italy for instance.

Whether it is desireable to have a state under God and torah is debateable. i am glad that the church has no say in state affairs anymore after some 1600 years.

[SteveK]

Steve,

yes the jewish nation is alive after 2000 years. But i would assume there were substantial changes in the jewish society compared to 2000 years ago just as in italy for instance.

Whether it is desireable to have a state under God and torah is debateable. i am glad that the church has no say in state affairs anymore after some 1600 years.

determinism,

The Jewish heritage is based on our Covenant with God as a Nation from the time of Mount Sinai. Furthermore, the Torah relates:

Deuteronomy 29:13

I [Moses speaking] am not only making this covenant and this oath with you, but with [both] those standing here with us today before our God, and with those [in future generations] who are not here with us today.

The Jews are not about religion as are the Christians or the Muslims. The Jews are about a united sovereign people in the Land of Israel under Torah.

That's what the Covenant with God is about for the Jewish People,--- for all time. Exile was about not fulfilling that Covenant and the Jews at the time of Mount Sinai agreed to some very great penalties for not living up to the Covenant,-- and they were to get some very extraordinary blessings if they did: Deuteronomy: (27:1 - 28:69).

All that you see now today in the Jewish Nation concerning the ongoing diaspora and the atheist State of Israel is all about our confused faith, turmoil, and destruction stemming from ancient times and all because we didn't live up to our Covenant with God.

[Mercury]

Is that all for Rome,--- 1000 years of "long history"?????

The Jews have an unbroken history and passing of heritage through the generations for 3,500+ years from the time of Abraham. The Jews have seen it all.

And, the Jews are still alive and their sovereign Jewish Homeland is back.

And what relevance does it have to the original point?

[SteveK]

And what relevance does it have to the original point?

Well, I'll tell you the relevance, Mercury.

I studied 4 years of Latin in highschool. Do you know what it's like to study 4 years of Latin?

Then you would understand the relevance of what I said, and the relevance of this little jingle:

Latin is a dead language
As dead as dead can be
Once it killed a Roman Empire
Now it's killing me

[Mercury]

Well, I'll tell you the relevance, Mercury.




and Carthago delenda est!

[Mediocrates]

According to what I know of roman history gauls, etruscs, cathagenians, parthians etc made far more troubles for romans than Judea even during the worst years of its rebellion. So I wondered if I missed something.

Well they smashed the Gauls and ended the rule of Versingetorix, they wiped out the Etruscans, they eliminated the entire city state of Cathage and killed just about everyone there. The Parthians they never really conquered. The Jews never really accepted conquest and each Roman-Syrian attempt to bolster national identity by erasing local cultures was met with resistance. This went on for over 400 years.

[SteveK]

and Carthago delenda est!


Fac ut vivas.

[Mediocrates]

Know what? Good. Let Israel be a Christian nation. They sure as hell screwed up making it a Jewish one.

[Cato]

As in the past, missionaries today spend substantial amounts of money establishing churches, hospitals, charities, feeding kitchens and workshops where Christian publications are given out for free or at low cost. These campaigns are well thought out, with Christian leaders relying on the ignorance of the Jews so as not to have their plans thwarted. In a successful campaign that helped those early new immigrants with food, money and social services, they succeeded in spreading their gospel. Their hidden agenda is today barely noticed, covered up in layers of what seems like intrinsic sacrifice on the behalf of Jews they just want to help.

Today, there is no longer a small campaign by a single group of missionaries to convert Jews in Israel, but a strategic and well-crafted plan, funded by billions of dollars, to make it happen. This is no exaggeration; literally billions are being spent to convert Jews across the world and specifically in Israel. There is a book written by a notorious Christian preacher and missionary in which he describes how he and his wife made aliyah several years ago. In his Messianic Jewish Manifesto, the author calls for Christians to go ahead with the attempt at aliyah. This man is a member of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, the world's most aggressive Christian missionary support and management group, an organization founded by none other than Reverend Billy Graham. A highly secretive organization, based in Denmark with a wide global network, its membership includes every major Protestant and Messianic missionary group in the world. In Israel alone, its membership totals at least six agencies, six congregations and 29 individuals.

The "Thailand Report on Jewish People", developed at a meeting of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, made mention of the fact that Christians need to increase their activity against the Jews, going as far as identifying Jewish targets as Ashkenazi and Sephardic. They have already converted thousands of Jews in schools and universities throughout Israel. They say that more thought should be given to the nature of the training necessary for reaching the different segments of the community: "We observe that some training is more geared to reaching Orthodox Jews, whereas secular Jews form a great majority in most communities."

American Evangelists Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have both been involved in Christian proselytizing by radio. Robertson started broadcasting from across the Lebanese border in 1979. At one time, he wanted to put up an antenna in Samaria, which had the capability of beaming radio signals to Jerusalem, but he was challenged by local residents. Today, because of the liberalism inherent in the Israeli government, Christian evangelicals have been issued licenses to operate radio stations based out of Jerusalem. These stations have been given the right to continue their work of converting the Jews to Christianity, while Jewish radio stations that teach Torah continue to be banned or face difficulty obtaining permits.

There is not only a radio campaign, but a television one as well. It was in 1979 that Robertson's organization began broadcasting Christian programming 28 hours a week in Israel. In 1982, Hope TV station in Lebanon was donated to Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network and became Middle East Television. In 1997, Middle East Television began Christian evangelism on the AMOS-1 communication satellite over the Middle East to a potential audience of 200 million people in 15 nations, including Israel. They broadcast their idolatry over Israel's channel 24, where you can watch The Harvest Show - and it is not a vegetable they seek to harvest, it's Jews. They broadcast in Hebrew, while shows in English have Hebrew subtitles. They show programs such as the Beverly Hillbillies, Head of the Class, and The Andy Griffith Show mixed in among Pat Robertson's 700 Club, This Is Your Day, Evangelist Joyce Meyer, Dr. Lester Sumrall, Another Day of Victory and Harvest. The Jews in Israel are virtually bombarded by television shows that teach them they are incomplete unless they accept the Christian way of life and belief.

Christian evangelical groups in Israel run something called the Joseph Project. It is an organization designed to look like a humanitarian organization, but is actually a missionary based group that targets new, Russian-speaking immigrants. The Joseph Project is a division of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. This organization is endorsed by mainstream Christian organizations, including the Christian Coalition of America, Christian Broadcasting Network, Promise Keepers and Pat Boone, entertainer and Christian evangelist. This group was founded in February of 1996 on the principles that:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php?id=5576


If you are so dammed concerned about christian prosleytizing then encourage Israeli Jews to stay jewish, and teach them WHY it is better to stay jewish.

There is absoloutly no problem with christian missionaries in Israel, some of Israel's greatest minds such as Supreme Court Justice Salim Joubran are christians, and the christian charities and religious schools you seem to complain about have give more help to Israel and Israelis then any non government organization.

You may not know this but the churches you complain about do most of Israel's Public Relations works, and they are not even getting paid to do it!

In Asia (The far east, not including India or the Middle East) the people who stand up to Islamist and Pan Arab propaganda are Evangelical Christians.

If your complaint is that christians may soon outnumber jews in Israel because of it that is just rediculous. There will never be enough of them to form a demographic threat.

One more thing that you, and the aricle forgot to mention is that the Muslim growth is threatening to destroy the jewish nature of Israel.

Another it happened to forget is that the christian missionairies ARE CONVERTING THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY!

Exchange muslims who get four wives, have 5 children with each one, can't figure out that oversized families like that hurts them economically so blame the government, segregate themselves, and refuse to join the army with christians who join the IDF en masse, have normal sized families, live side by side with jews, consider themselves Israeli, and help instead of hurt the economy, what's the catch? Well there is no catch.

[Toga]

#1. The European Christians were responsible for the Jewish extermination and pogroms on their soil. Hatred for Israel (Jews) persists in Europe to this very day.

#2 We do differentiate between the European Christians and American Christians.

#3 Nobody is denying the Christian assistance. Unfortunately, the Christian love for the Jews and Israel is not based on purity but conditions. Accordingly, we are destined for hell if we do not change and accept their premise. In other words, they love the Jews to death and watch the developments as some kind of a show to prove their beliefs.

#4 The Israeli Jews raised in a Jewish environment can be very naive as to the tactics (tricks, especially when they present themselves as Jews) used by the Christian missionaries who mostly target the secular and vulnerable Jews. They do not stand a chance with the Orthodox Jews who have a strong Jewish identity and knowledge.

[Cato]

#1. The European Christians were responsible for the Jewish extermination and pogroms on their soil. Hatred for Israel (Jews) persists in Europe to this very day.

#2 We do differentiate between the European Christians and American Christians.

#3 Nobody is denying the Christian assistance. Unfortunately, the Christian love for the Jews and Israel is not based on purity but conditions. Accordingly, we are destined for hell if we do not change and accept their premise. In other words, they love the Jews to death and watch the developments as some kind of a show to prove their beliefs.

#4 The Israeli Jews raised in a Jewish environment can be very naive as to the tactics (tricks, especially when they present themselves as Jews) used by the Christian missionaries who mostly target the secular and vulnerable Jews. They do not stand a chance with the Orthodox Jews who have a strong Jewish identity and knowledge.

I have a five part response to that.

1.The Pograms of the Middle Ages are over, and have been over for hundreds of years. Judeophobia has long since ceased to be about religious beliefs and has been about hatred for another people. Even the more recent term for hating jews anti-semitism is a secular term that has no connection to christianity.

2. Different churches have different beliefs, both American and European. The Roman Catholic Church is a firm and reliable friend of Israel, and it is based in Europe. The Roman Catholic Church has done a lot to help us. So either Italy doesn't count as Europe to you, or your attempt to simplify things into European missionairies are different because they serve anti-semitic chruches doesn't work. You also forgot the Presbyterian and UCC both American based churches filled with anti-semitism.

3. Even if what you said about European Churches being different was totally accurate there are just as many American as there are European Missionaries in Israel.

4. Only the Anglicans, Lutherans, KKK Churches (ie white Aryan) and Presbyterians think the jews go to hell, no other church denomination agrees with that.

5. Secular Israeli Jews are not vulnerable. There are some jews who feel something is missing in their lives and may give christianity a try, anything wrong with that? Christians in Israel are a positive part of the community, and christian missionairies who set up charities are positive as well.

[SteveK]

Hi guys:

Cato to Toga:

If you are so dammed concerned about christian prosleytizing then encourage Israeli Jews to stay jewish, and teach them WHY it is better to stay jewish.


Cato to SteveK:

Theocracy is for thick heads.

Actually that is a good slogan to use for steve-k

Theocracy is for Thick Heads

Everything Israel has accomplished was accomplished thanks to it's being an open, liberal, secular democracy.


Toga to Cato:

#4 The Israeli Jews raised in a Jewish environment can be very naive as to the tactics (tricks, especially when they present themselves as Jews) used by the Christian missionaries who mostly target the secular and vulnerable Jews. They do not stand a chance with the Orthodox Jews who have a strong Jewish identity and knowledge.


Then, how can we prevent pelsar and Ophra, and their power hungry political gangs of brazen dogs, from targeting these Israeli secular naive vulnerable Jews to keep them as Israeli secular naive vulnerable Jews and teach them ALL WHY it is better to stay Jewish and be Jewish as Orthodox Jews with a strong Jewish identity and knowledge?

But, then again, pelsar, Ophra,and their power hungry political gang of brazen dogs, are not those secular naive vulnerable Jews, who would allow an Israeli approach to a Christian theocracy, anymore than they would allow an Israeli approach to a Jewish Orthodox theocracy for Israel given the revelation set forth in their REAL ISRAELI TESTAMENTthat: Everything Israel has accomplished was accomplished thanks to it's being an open, liberal, secular democracy.

Bye guys.

[Toga]

1.The Pograms of the Middle Ages are over, and have been over for hundreds of years. Judeophobia has long since ceased to be about religious beliefs and has been about hatred for another people. Even the more recent term for hating jews anti-semitism is a secular term that has no connection to christianity.

You must be living in some fantasy land. A horrible anti-Semitic pogrom was perpetrated in Kielce, Poland, a good Catholic country, in 1946 right after the the extermination of the European Jewry. http://www.smcm.edu/academics/soan/smp/jewish_resilience/kielce_pogrom.htm
The anti-Semitic acts continue to this very day in belgium, France, Russia, the UK, etc.

This may only be theoretical for you but when a religious Jew was murdered in Belgium for him and his family it is not an isolated incident. For that family/community it was very tragic event.

2. Different churches have different beliefs, both American and European. The Roman Catholic Church is a firm and reliable friend of Israel, and it is based in Europe. The Roman Catholic Church has done a lot to help us. So either Italy doesn't count as Europe to you, or your attempt to simplify things into European missionairies are different because they serve anti-semitic chruches doesn't work. You also forgot the Presbyterian and UCC both American based churches filled with anti-semitism.

The European anti-Semitism did NOT occur in the vacuum. Take a look at our wonderful European history.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

If the Vatican is such a great friend of Jews why does not it open its archives to Jews or even the non-Jews?

3. Even if what you said about European Churches being different was totally accurate there are just as many American as there are European Missionaries in Israel.

Agree! The Christians salesmen are annoying cause we are not buying.

4. Only the Anglicans, Lutherans, KKK Churches (ie white Aryan) and Presbyterians think the jews go to hell, no other church denomination agrees with that.

What does the Roman Christian church believe? Don't they believe that Jews conspired to murder their savior?

5. Secular Israeli Jews are not vulnerable. There are some jews who feel something is missing in their lives and may give christianity a try, anything wrong with that? Christians in Israel are a positive part of the community, and christian missionairies who set up charities are positive as well.

Jews who feel that there is a vaccuum in their lives obviously do not search in the right places. What do they know about Judaism? If a Jew gets involved in Zen or Rajnish communities after profoundly studying Judaism that is another story. However, a Jew who has a deep understanding of the Torah/Judaism would never stray. Only an ignorant and vulnerable Jew would.

Please note, the Christians latched on to Judaism and not the other way around.

[Cato]

"You must be living in some fantasy land. A horrible anti-Semitic pogrom was perpetrated in Kielce, Poland, a good Catholic country, in 1946 right after the the extermination of the European Jewry. http://www.smcm.edu/academics/soan/...elce_pogrom.htm
The anti-Semitic acts continue to this very day in belgium, France, Russia, the UK, etc.

This may only be theoretical for you but when a religious Jew was murdered in Belgium for him and his family it is not an isolated incident. For that family/community it was very tragic event."

That was racial hatred based, not religious hatred based violence, you know like in Rwanda. Just because the murderers were Catholics, and the Victims was jews does not mean it was due to religious animosity. Most likely it was due to racial hatred. Jews are not the only ones hated for non religious reasons, what is so hard to accept that the Church Pograms ended centuries ago, and the Secular State Pograms took their place?

"The European anti-Semitism did occur in the vacuum. Take a look at our wonderful European history.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vit...Persecution.htm"

Call Italy Italy not the Vaccum so I know what you are talking about. Anyway considering that timeline had nothing between 1569-1938 in Italy that I saw I can say that it is not really worth looking at. Also considering that it listed the forced conversions to christianity as a special anti-jewish event, despite the fact that most of the people forced to convert were people of the different Pagan Religions like the cult of Mithras/The Olympian Gods/The Gallic Gods/The Germanic Gods etc etc etc shows little scholarship. Also it is not hard to find historical persecution in Italy, however the Italians have changed and recent events did prove it.

The Italians refused to hand the jews of Italy over to Hitler, and openly clashed with the nazis over it. They also tried their best to save their jewish neighbours. They even tried to save the jews of the Balkans by attempting to bring them to safety in Italy. Unfortunately the Germans easily destroyed their army, in a casualty ratio that would remind you of the first Gulf War. Even occupied thousands of ordinary Italians risked, and often gave their lives trying to save jews. Even high ranking Generals and Admirals gave their lives. The Pope himself risked his life by using the Vatican as a hiding place for 5000 jews. Italy today is a supporter of Israel, and is working with Israel on many important technological developments.

"If the Vatican is such a great friend of Jews why does not it open its archives to Jews or even the non-Jews?"

Some organizations don't like to share their classified information. Non jews are not allowed to see the documents either, not even ordinary Catholics are.

"Agree! The Christians salesmen are annoying cause we are not buying."

They are not annoying, they are very helpful to Israel. I mentioned how they are turning Muslims who segregate themselves into christians who are perfectly willing, and always do live with jews right?

"What does the Roman Christian church believe? Don't they believe that Jews conspired to murder their savior?"

They believe that currupt tyrants who happened to be jewish killed Jesus, but the jews with their faith in God secured his ressurection so he could ascend to heaven in life.

"Jews who feel that there is a vaccuum in their lives obviously do not search in the right places. What do they know about Judaism? If a Jew gets involved in Zen or Rajnish communities after profoundly studying Judaism that is another story. However, a Jew who has a deep understanding of the Torah/Judaism would never stray. Only an ignorant and vulnerable Jew would."

They do search in the right places, not all jews stay jews though. Not all Hindus remain Hindus, not all Christians stay christians, not all Buddhists stay buddhist.

The Bible also has more then it's shares of verses that contradict itself, so stop trying to make it out to be perfect. It has plenty of sexism in it that says otherwise. Only God knows what is right.

"stay Jewish and be Jewish as Orthodox Jews with a strong Jewish identity and knowledge?"

Who happen to not lift a sword on Israel's Behalf when the nation is in extreme danger you draft dodger.

[Toga]

There is not much difference between the Hamas terrorists and Christian missionaries. Killing the Jewish souls, harrassing the Jews, trying to sell them their idols is just as bad as killing the Jewish bodies.

What is the matter? Are you one of those?

Tell us the truth, please....

This is our answer to the missionaries:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

[determinism]

Toga,

i have no symapthy for christian (or any other) missionaries but isn't your comparison a little extreme? As long as the christians don't force others to convert or to follow the pope why does it matter if jews convert? I for once couldn't care less if all europeans would convert to jewdaism or hinduism or whatever -ism as long as i can remain an agnostic and don't get forced to follow their believes and rituals.

[Cato]

There is not much difference between the Hamas terrorists and Christian missionaries. Killing the Jewish souls, harrassing the Jews, trying to sell them their idols is just as bad as killing the Jewish bodies.

What is the matter? Are you one of those?

Tell us the truth, please....

This is our answer to the missionaries:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

Well I am teaching people about the evils of anti-semitism, it's history, how being an anti-semite makes you an evil person, and how to respect ALL religions in Greece since there has been an outbreak of anti-semitism. As a teacher I am glad to be in the fight against racism. So yes I am teaching Greek children some very christian concepts, if that makes me a christian missionary so be it, this christian missionary is doing a lot more for judaism then you appear to be doing.

Secular Jews are not vulnerable in any way. They know all about judaism, and all about Islam to since that is in the Israeli School Curriculum. Perhaps what is attractive about converting to christianity with them are the fact that at heart they do infact believe Jesus fullfilled the mission of Judaism? If you disagree with them that is perfectly acceptable, but it is not acceptable for you to want them to be forced to stay jews since that is very contrary to jewish values, and democratic values.

Those christian missionairies you complain about are great friends to Israel, and for the most part they share jewish values.

[Toga]

Wy should I care what you wish on the Europeans?

However, I care about the Jews. Judaism and Jewishness are too precious and beautiful to be swayed away from.

Rest assured, Europe will not be converted to Judaism. Considering the demographic change it will probably become Muslim and when it happens do you think the gays will be allowed to marry?

Everybody can become Jewish but it is not easy. We don't dip them in a water and declare them Jewish. It is a protracted learning process which totally transforms a person.

[Toga]

Secular Jews are not vulnerable in any way. They know all about judaism, and all about Islam to since that is in the Israeli School Curriculum. Perhaps what is attractive about converting to christianity with them are the fact that at heart they do infact believe Jesus fullfilled the mission of Judaism? If you disagree with them that is perfectly acceptable, but it is not acceptable for you to want them to be forced to stay jews since that is very contrary to jewish values, and democratic values.

Those christian missionairies you complain about are great friends to Israel, and for the most part they share jewish values.

#1. There is nothing wrong if a person is vulnerable. We are all vulberable to a certain degree. The problem arises when the Christian missionaries are using that vulnerability to their advantage and are involved in trickery.

#2. You as a good Christian should be the last person in the world to dictate the Jews or teach the Jews.

#3. The universal values of ethics, morality, civility, etc. are based on the Jewish values. Our values and traditions have outlived the Greek empire, the Roman empire, etc. Many people of that time have disappeared but not the Jews. We have been sustained by Judaism and it is worth preserving it.

#4. Continue preaching the good values in Greece. Unfortunately, many Greeks hate the Jews as much as the Arabs do. Theodorakis ,who wrote the Palestinian Anthem, actually, called the Jews "the root of all evil".

This is what he said:

-------------------
"Afterward he admitted that his relationships with Jews are love-hate relationships. And again he described to me the audience that hung from the rafters of the Mann Auditorium in Tel Aviv in the early 1970s. And he played the song that the Israelis most liked to hear. And translated the words for me (So profound is the sorrow). And played the requiem that he wrote after the death of his father. Said that he wanted to die after his father's death. Until suddenly the sounds of this religious music came to him. That's how he started to compose: Every Sunday he would write a new work for the church choir. Just like Bach, he laughs. And that's why now, after the death of his father and the death of his mother and the death of his brother, he has found some consolation in this Passion. Because although he isn't religious, he has some religion in him. He doesn't believe in the Church, he doesn't believe in an afterlife, but he loves Jesus' love. Is moved to tears when he thinks about Jesus' sacrifice. His sufferings on the cross.

With your permission, I'd like to go back to your upbringing. To what you were taught at a very young age. How do you explain your grandmother's fear of the Jews?

"I think it came from religion. From the priests."

It had to do with the killing of Christ?

"Yes. My grandmother was not a well-educated woman."

I am trying to understand her. Not to judge her. Perhaps the fear of the Jews had to do with the fact they killed the son of God. If someone has the power to kill the son of God, he has enormous power.

"I think that the attitude of the Greeks toward the Jews has its roots n the way the Jews behaved themselves. In small communities like ours, there were no secrets. We knew that among the Jews there were secrets they did not share with us. They wanted to be different. To keep separate. I understand that. It comes from a need for self-defense."

Can you give me examples?

"Very often there were love affairs between Jews and Greeks. But the Jewish families did not want their young to marry Christians. But this closeness and secretiveness, it provokes. They never invited me to a Jewish home. I had Jewish friends. They came to my house. But I was never invited to their homes. I wanted to go in and I was not allowed. So I began wondering why not. What's happening there. The Jews paid a price for trying to keep their Jewishness. Their closed society."

Were there other reasons for the special attitude toward the Jews?

"Yes. There was something else. When a Jew progressed, especially to control commerce or to have economic power, it provoked envy. You have that kind of envy for successful Greeks as well. But in the case of the Jews, the perceived wisdom was that he became rich not because of his talent but because he was a Jew. And the Jews could pull strings to help one another to progress."

So for you it was the secretiveness and closeness of the Jews that was the most troubling. Not the role of the Jews in the Jesus story.

"At that time, that story did not interest me. For the Greek Orthodox Church, it was important. Anyway, during the war the Jews were chased like animals. And we in the progressive movement saved tens of thousands of Jews. The Jews of Thessaloniki were the victims of the rabbis who didn't let them come and hide in the mountains with us. For us, the Jews of Greece were not different from the Greeks. They were entirely Greek."

Later you did become preoccupied with the Jews. Why? When? "When I started searching for the springs of humanity. I realized the importance of the two streams, the Jewish and the Hellenic. I realized that these are the two pillars of western civilization.

Judaism had two contributions to civilization. One was positive: morality. The other was negative: an autocratic mental structure. The idea that there is one God that we must obey comes from Judaism. Later it was exploited by secular powers. It created a society that is vertical. Hierarchical. Very different from the Hellenic democracy."

http://www.israelblog.org/Articles/The_Jewish_problem.html
--------------------------------

Again, keep your beliefs to yourself just as we keep our beliefs to ourselves. Leave us your phone number. When we need you we will call you. It is sickening how your arrogant kind tries to sell the Jews your stuff.

[Toga]

They are pests!

They have the arrogance and audacity to come to Jews to tell us that we are missing something so that we would buy their stuff.

What did the Greeks miss when they dragged the Jews out of their homes and placed them on the trains to Auschwitz?

Typical tricks! They penetrate the Jewish forums coming across as good Zionists only to tell the Jews that we are missing something.

[Cato]

"#1. There is nothing wrong if a person is vulnerable. We are all vulberable to a certain degree. The problem arises when the Christian missionaries are using that vulnerability to their advantage and are involved in trickery."

Responsible-Christian Missionairies don't exploit anybody's vulnerability, which doesn't exist the way you indicate. They simply teach the word of christ and provide conversions for people who feel that christianity suites them more then the religion they have. I already mentioned that many of the converts are Muslims. Muslim Women are especially high in converting to christianity, and the christians are perfectly willing to live with jews, unlike Muslims who segregate themselves in both Israel and Europe.

"#2. You as a good Christian should be the last person in the world to dictate the Jews or teach the Jews."

Well considering that during the latter part of the Ottoman Empire jews living in the part of the world Israel is in now were employed mainly by European Christians that didn't trust Muslims to give them accurate information, and that being employed and taught by Europeans was what gave jews in the Middle East the edge that is not a very well thought out opinion.

"#3. The universal values of ethics, morality, civility, etc. are based on the Jewish values. Our values and traditions have outlived the Greek empire, the Roman empire, etc. Many people of that time have disappeared but not the Jews. We have been sustained by Judaism and it is worth preserving it."

Universal values come as much from the Greeks and Romans as from Judaism. The jews did not outlive the Greeks, the Greeks actually gained their independence before Israel. Jewish Values and traditions have changed over time. For example Medieval jewish scholars effectively removed honour killings for adultery from Judaism. However killing women for adultery, and punishing them for being raped (I.E take a look at David and the revolt of the jews, when his favored son raped his niece, and far from doing justice King David makes her a water carrier, which provoked his son Absolom (SP) to lead a rebellion against his rule) was a practice of the First Kingdom. Jewish Values and Traditions were very much influenced by Greco Roman customs. Were do you think the Passover Reclining comes from knowing that it only dates to the second century AD? The form of government Western Democracies including Israel follows is a modified form of the Roman System with some reforms in place, however the systems in place in Europe, Israel, and Japan would be something Cicero would easily recognize and work in.

"#4. Continue preaching the good values in Greece. Unfortunately, many Greeks hate the Jews as much as the Arabs do. Theodorakis ,who wrote the Palestinian Anthem, actually, called the Jews "the root of all evil".

This is what he said:

-------------------
"Afterward he admitted that his relationships with Jews are love-hate relationships. And again he described to me the audience that hung from the rafters of the Mann Auditorium in Tel Aviv in the early 1970s. And he played the song that the Israelis most liked to hear. And translated the words for me (So profound is the sorrow). And played the requiem that he wrote after the death of his father. Said that he wanted to die after his father's death. Until suddenly the sounds of this religious music came to him. That's how he started to compose: Every Sunday he would write a new work for the church choir. Just like Bach, he laughs. And that's why now, after the death of his father and the death of his mother and the death of his brother, he has found some consolation in this Passion. Because although he isn't religious, he has some religion in him. He doesn't believe in the Church, he doesn't believe in an afterlife, but he loves Jesus' love. Is moved to tears when he thinks about Jesus' sacrifice. His sufferings on the cross.

With your permission, I'd like to go back to your upbringing. To what you were taught at a very young age. How do you explain your grandmother's fear of the Jews?

"I think it came from religion. From the priests."

It had to do with the killing of Christ?

"Yes. My grandmother was not a well-educated woman."

I am trying to understand her. Not to judge her. Perhaps the fear of the Jews had to do with the fact they killed the son of God. If someone has the power to kill the son of God, he has enormous power.

"I think that the attitude of the Greeks toward the Jews has its roots n the way the Jews behaved themselves. In small communities like ours, there were no secrets. We knew that among the Jews there were secrets they did not share with us. They wanted to be different. To keep separate. I understand that. It comes from a need for self-defense."

Can you give me examples?

"Very often there were love affairs between Jews and Greeks. But the Jewish families did not want their young to marry Christians. But this closeness and secretiveness, it provokes. They never invited me to a Jewish home. I had Jewish friends. They came to my house. But I was never invited to their homes. I wanted to go in and I was not allowed. So I began wondering why not. What's happening there. The Jews paid a price for trying to keep their Jewishness. Their closed society."

Were there other reasons for the special attitude toward the Jews?

"Yes. There was something else. When a Jew progressed, especially to control commerce or to have economic power, it provoked envy. You have that kind of envy for successful Greeks as well. But in the case of the Jews, the perceived wisdom was that he became rich not because of his talent but because he was a Jew. And the Jews could pull strings to help one another to progress."

So for you it was the secretiveness and closeness of the Jews that was the most troubling. Not the role of the Jews in the Jesus story.

"At that time, that story did not interest me. For the Greek Orthodox Church, it was important. Anyway, during the war the Jews were chased like animals. And we in the progressive movement saved tens of thousands of Jews. The Jews of Thessaloniki were the victims of the rabbis who didn't let them come and hide in the mountains with us. For us, the Jews of Greece were not different from the Greeks. They were entirely Greek."

Later you did become preoccupied with the Jews. Why? When? "When I started searching for the springs of humanity. I realized the importance of the two streams, the Jewish and the Hellenic. I realized that these are the two pillars of western civilization.

Judaism had two contributions to civilization. One was positive: morality. The other was negative: an autocratic mental structure. The idea that there is one God that we must obey comes from Judaism. Later it was exploited by secular powers. It created a society that is vertical. Hierarchical. Very different from the Hellenic democracy.""

I don't deny that he is an anti-semite, he is one and one of the worst types of anti-semites..

So why the hell do you listen to him about christianity still being the source of anti-semitism? He is a racist that likes to point the finger at others to avoid being revealed for what he is.

That man is a man of the new anti-semitic left, not a man of christianity. He bashes christianity and hinduism as well. The only religion he has any respect for is Islam.

Here is a good article about Theodorakis's anti-semitism you may wish to read for yourself from the Jerusalem Post. I will post it in a next post because it made the response too long.

"Again, keep your beliefs to yourself just as we keep our beliefs to ourselves. Leave us your phone number. When we need you we will call you. It is sickening how your arrogant kind tries to sell the Jews your stuff."

If you feel judaism is so weak that all it would take to convert all the jews is telling them christ came then you seem to have a very poor view of your own religion, which is just sad.

"They are pests!

They have the arrogance and audacity to come to Jews to tell us that we are missing something so that we would buy their stuff."

In a democracy it is perfectly acceptable to preach your religion, and Israel is a democracy, which I just happen to be a citizen of. Again if you feel that judaism is so weak that christian missionairies are a threat instead of a helping hand you have a very low view of your religion, which is sad.

"What did the Greeks miss when they dragged the Jews out of their homes and placed them on the trains to Auschwitz?"

The Greeks at that time were missing christianity. Besides most Greeks were anti-nazi. The German Army destroyed the Greek Army and made Greece an Occupied Territory. The Germans did the same thing in Italy, the Italians tried to save their jews. The Holocaust Card really is not a good thing for use against christian missionairies because Nazism was Secular, and had nothing to do with christianity.

"Typical tricks! They penetrate the Jewish forums coming across as good Zionists only to tell the Jews that we are missing something."

I would have thought that Israeli Citizens who are working against racism, and doing a much better job to bolster Israel's PR then most would be welcome at a place calles "IsraelForum".

[Toga]

Nope, the Christian missionaries are NOT welcome here. This forum is for the Jews and the non-Jewish supporters of Jews and Israel who don't have an agenda.

You do!

Again if you feel that judaism is so weak that christian missionairies are a threat instead of a helping hand you have a very low view of your religion, which is sad.

Nope, I don't believe that Judaism is weak. On the contrary, Judaism is very strong and secure. It is the envy of those who are insecure and weak. Judaism has outlived and will outlive everything else on this planet. However some people are weak and we need to protect the weak Jews against those who use tricks and and want to harm their souls.

Unlike other religions Judaism is a secure, non-missionary religion. You will never see a Jewish missionary trying to sell Judaism to a non-Jew. The only request the Jews have is to be left alone.

Do not love us! Do not hate us! Leave us alone, let us be who we are and if you want to leave us your phone number please do so. When we need you, we will call you.

However, you know as well as I do, that because Judaism is a secure, non-missionary religion, you will never leave the Jews alone in peace with the Jewish beliefs. Never!

PS. Please note, the Jews are not against the Christians and definitely not agaisnt the Muslims. Muslims and Jews may have some disagreements but we need to put everything in perspective: most Jews in the Christian Europe were exterminated while most Jews in the Muslim countries survived.

[determinism]

Toga,

Wy should I care what you wish on the Europeans?

who says you should? ...although if europe indeed becomes muslim as you predict (i strongly disagree with this assumption) it might indeed be an additional future problem for israel.

However, I care about the Jews. Judaism and Jewishness are too precious and beautiful to be swayed away from.

Most jews i know are not religious by even a wide shot. I don't think they are less happy than religious jews who marry only other religious jews.
Besides...if you ask a jehovah's witness he will state exactly what you stated...nothing is as beautiful as being a JW.

Rest assured, Europe will not be converted to Judaism. Considering the demographic change it will probably become Muslim and when it happens do you think the gays will be allowed to marry?

europe is far less religious than the US for instance. I view it as very unlikely that islam will ever have a chance of becoming very influencial in europe. but we will see whether the EU is crazy enough to allow turkey to become a memeber state.

Everybody can become Jewish but it is not easy. We don't dip them in a water and declare them Jewish. It is a protracted learning process which totally transforms a person.

i am glad to hear that it is possible to convert to jewdaism. however what does jewdasim offer that other religions don't offer (except that it is a smaller and thus perhaps more coherent group than christianity)?

The universal values of ethics, morality, civility, etc. are based on the Jewish values. Our values and traditions have outlived the Greek empire, the Roman empire, etc. Many people of that time have disappeared but not the Jews. We have been sustained by Judaism and it is worth preserving it.

jews have made fantastic contributions to society thus i don't think it is necessary to make such exaggerations. Cato replied to your points already...i would just like to add that it was largely Jesus respectively the christians who introduced modern ethics to the middle east and europe. Some of this is based on jewdasim but large parts resemble buddhism and are probably copied from it.

also, yes the jews have survived for the last 2000 years but so have the italiens=romans, the greeks, the chinese...

[Cato]

Well this christian missionary would like to remind you that one of the members of our Supreme Court is a Maronite Catholic.

If Judaism is strong and secure the ideas other people put forward about their religion is not a threat to jews anywere now is it?

As for your weak vulnerable jews who are the ones that join the IDF, if the Orthadox is so strong why are they exempt from service in the military?

There can be no compulsion in religious beliefs, if someone is being forced to stay jewish that person will not be a very good jew.

As for christian missionairies in Israel Israel has an 18% Muslim Population. This population does Polygamy despite it being against the law, it segregates itself to make sure it stays emotionally distant from jews, it concentrates on family size rather then give love and care for each child, much of it has hate which Christ would wish to be dispelled, they play the blame game in blamming non muslims for anything that happens to them, yet for whatever reason you do not seem to wish for the Gospell to be taught to these Muslims, that Jesus loves everyone and wishes for brotherhood, that women and men are equals? I know for a fact that the majority of Israelis who convert to Christianity are Muslim Women who are attracted by the words of christ.

This is not the 7th century, and everyone is in contact with everyone. The only question is friendly or not friendly.

Edit-The jews only outlived the Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Caananites, and Hitites. Most of the people who were around with the jews in history are still around. Persians, Assyrians, Romans (Now Italian), Chinese, Inidans etc etc. So just say how many people did judaism outlive really?

[Toga]

Toga,

[QUOTE] ...although if europe indeed becomes muslim as you predict (i strongly disagree with this assumption) it might indeed be an additional future problem for israel.

1. When did the Euros start worrying about the Jews/Israel? When you say something like that it sounds comical. The European soil is soaked with Jewish blood.

2. You must be a commedian when you say that the demographic change in Europe in favor of the Muslims will bring more trouble for Israel. Who do you think Europe is siding with now? Jews? Israel? Please...that is just too funny.

3. Most Jews in Christian Europe were exterminated. Most Jews in the Muslim countries survived. Please tattoo this on your arm so that you don't forget it.

Most jews i know are not religious by even a wide shot. I don't think they are less happy than religious jews who marry only other religious jews.

Another act of a commedian. Do you know anything about the Orthodox? How can you even make such uneducated comparison. Most Jews in Germany or Austria today come from Russia where Judaism was almost eradicated. Do you know how many "Jews" in Germany who came from the USSR are halakhically Jewish?

Besides...if you ask a jehovah's witness he will state exactly what you stated...nothing is as beautiful as being a JW.

Good! They should be proud of who they are. What does it have to do with the Jews?

europe is far less religious than the US for instance. I view it as very unlikely that islam will ever have a chance of becoming very influencial in europe. but we will see whether the EU is crazy enough to allow turkey to become a memeber state.

Turkey will become a member of the EU. In addition, there are already over 3M Turks in Turkey. 10% of France, Sweden, Holland, etc. is already Muslim. Give it another 30 - 40 years. It just the beginning.

i am glad to hear that it is possible to convert to jewdaism. however what does jewdasim offer that other religions don't offer (except that it is a smaller and thus perhaps more coherent group than christianity)?

Judaism is not smaller. Judaism is as huge as the universe. It has few followers today courtesy of the ghastly European slaughter houses.

jews have made fantastic contributions to society thus i don't think it is necessary to make such exaggerations.

There are 6 Billion people on this planet. 14 Miilion of them are Jews. 20% of the Nobel Prize winners. You do the math.

Had it not been for the Euro Nazis and 6 Million Jews had been alive the Jews would have won a lot more than 20% of the Nobel prizes. Do you think Poland would have been miserable for 50 years if the Polish Jews had not been annihilated.

Cato replied to your points already...i would just like to add that it was largely Jesus respectively the christians who introduced modern ethics to the middle east and europe. Some of this is based on jewdasim but large parts resemble buddhism and are probably copied from it.

Who was Jesus or where the concept of Jesus come from? China, Brazil, Switzerland? I am not talking about the methodology of his appearance but the concept itself. Where do you think the bible comes from?

also, yes the jews have survived for the last 2000 years but so have the italiens=romans, the greeks, the chinese...

Please, no more ignorance! The Romans, Greeks or Chinese has the land, the real estate, a home. There is NO COMPARISON! The Jews DID NOT HAVE A HOME FOR 2000 years. They were dispersed all over and chased from one country to another but they survived and never lost their history. the faith, roots or the attachment to the land of Israel.

[Cato]

"2. You must be a commedian when you say that the demographic change in Europe in favor of the Muslims will bring more trouble for Israel. Who do you think Europe is siding with now? Jews? Israel? Please...that is just too funny."

You really are ignorant if you think that France and Britain are anywere close to being as bad as Syria and Saudi Arabia are at the moment. If Arabs become the majority in those countries though they will be.

"3. Most Jews in Christian Europe were exterminated. Most Jews in the Muslim countries survived. Please tattoo this on your arm so that you don't forget it."

There was no Israel during the Holocaust. There was therefore no place to flee to for the jews. However when the Muslims started to try to exterminate the jews Israel had already been created and the jews were able to get there under the Law of Return. If you would prefer to live in lets say Libya were practicing Judaism, or being a Zionist is a death penalty offense to living in Britain you are a total lunatic. The Muslim World is a lot more Judeaphobic then the christian world today.

"Another act of a commedian. Do you know anything about the Orthodox? How can you even make such uneducated comparison. Most Jews in Germany or Austria today come from Russia where Judaism was almost eradicated. Do you know how many "Jews" in Germany who came from the USSR are halakhically Jewish?"

Orthadox Jews in Israel are happy because they are exempt from IDF service. It is a hell of a lot more fun for jews to be secular then Orthadox. Especially girls. You may think total seperation of the sexes is a good idea the way the Saudis do, but most jews disagree.

"Turkey will become a member of the EU. In addition, there are already over 3M Turks in Turkey. 10% of France, Sweden, Holland, etc. is already Muslim. Give it another 30 - 40 years. It just the beginning.'

Unless France repeats it's use of its veto power, which Chirac has given every indication of doing.

"Judaism is not"

12-14 million jews. Yes I believe it is one of the smaller religions of the world at the moment.

". Judaism is as huge as the universe."

As are all religions

"Had it not been for the Euro Nazis and 6 Million Jews had been alive the Jews would have won a lot more than 20% of the Nobel prizes. Do you think Poland would have been miserable for 50 years if the Polish Jews had not been annihilated. "

The Polish Jews were leaving Poland for Israel because of Polish Persecution, Poland was one of the nations Churchill mentioned as an example of were because of persecutions politically speaking jews had two choices, zionism or bolshevism.

"There is NO COMPARISON! The Jews DID NOT HAVE A HOME FOR 2000 years. They were dispersed all over and chased from one country to another but they survived and never lost their history. the faith, roots or the attachment to the land of Israel."

The Assyrians and Kurds also survived Thousands of Years of Occupation, and the Persians survived a few hundred years under Arab Occupation.

You have still failed to demonstrate that christian missionairies in Israel are infact a problem.

[Toga]

[QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Well this christian missionary would like to remind you that

LOL! I am glad you came out of the closet to reveal your agenda. I knew it. Only a missionary would suggest that the Jews are missing something in Judaism. Only a missionary would be that arrogant.

one of the members of our Supreme Court is a Maronite Catholic.

Great! Wonderful. There should be no barrier for advancement for anyone in Israel. The democratic Jewish state of Israel should accept the most qualified people be they Jews or non-Jews to high positions. I hope that a Muslim would qualify to serve on the Israeli supreme court. In the future we may see a qualified Arab representative to the UN, etc.

If Judaism is strong and secure the ideas other people put forward about their religion is not a threat to jews anywere now is it?

Religion is not Zionism! Judaism is not Zionism. We can discuss Zionism here or we can discuss Israel. We can also discuss the politics of Israel but when it comes to Judaism we can only discuss it with a rabbi or at least another Jew. We should not let the non-Jews to define our faith. That is where the fence comes in. We are not going to agree with a missionary religion when our religion is non-missionary. Therefore, there is nothing to discuss in that regard.

As for your weak vulnerable jews who are the ones that join the IDF, if the Orthadox is so strong why are they exempt from service in the military?

Many Orthodox Jews do serve in the army. Thank G-d that the Jewish state of Israel gives exemptions to many Orthodox Jews to pursue the learning of the Torah.

There can be no compulsion in religious beliefs, if someone is being forced to stay jewish that person will not be a very good jew.

Why don't you worry about your Christian brethren and we will worry about our Jews. The Jewish beliefs are not your buisness and concern.

As for christian missionairies in Israel Israel has an 18% Muslim Population. This population does Polygamy despite it being against the law, it segregates itself to make sure it stays emotionally distant from jews, it concentrates on family size rather then give love and care for each child, much of it has hate which Christ would wish to be dispelled, they play the blame game in blamming non muslims for anything that happens to them, yet for whatever reason you do not seem to wish for the Gospell to be taught to these Muslims, that Jesus loves everyone and wishes for brotherhood, that women and men are equals? I know for a fact that the majority of Israelis who convert to Christianity are Muslim Women who are attracted by the words of christ. This is not the 7th century, and everyone is in contact with everyone. The only question is friendly or not friendly.

Listen, please don't bring you beliefs/idols in here. That is nasty and very arrogant. It is also very insulting. If you don't want the Jews to insult or ridicule your faith, so don't come in here with that stuff to us. WE ARE NOT BUYING! Is that clear? Even a pest or a leech would finally understand it.

As for your preaching to other religions please go ahead. It is your business.

Edit-The jews only outlived the Ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Caananites, and Hitites. Most of the people who were around with the jews in history are still around. Persians, Assyrians, Romans (Now Italian), Chinese, Inidans etc etc. So just say how many people did judaism outlive really?

Let me refer you to the previous message. Only the Jews survived in the Diaspora without a contry, land, real estate, etc. We have had the book that sustained us for 2000 years and will continue sustaining us for generations to come.

[Toga]

Cato,

France and Britain are anywere close to being as bad as Syria and Saudi Arabia are at the moment

Plizzzzzzzz....If Syria and Saudi Arabia are enemies neither France nor the UK are Israel's friends.

One of the pillars of Judaism is remembrance.

MOST JEWS IN THE MUSLIM STATES SURVIVED! MOST JEWS IN THE CHRISTIAN EUROPE WERE EXTERMINATED.

Unlike you we don't have a problem with anyone be they Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Rajnish or the Jamaican voodoo followers.

WE DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE! Period!

However, only Judaism is applicable to Jews and nothing else. You have your stuff and we have ours. We don't sell to you our stuff and please keep yours to yourself.

[Mira]

I must be getting cynical because I would rather have more good Christians than a bunch of bad Jews and Muslims. I wouldn't think of converting to Christianity, not because I'm a good Jew, but because I think that Christianity is a false, pseudo-pagan faith. And I would simply rather have people who are true believers in some kind of positive spiritual doctrine than those types of people whose humanitarian principles can bend according to the expediency of their needs and desires. I would rather meet the true believer of "Jesus the Christ" on a roadside when I need help than the self-interested, good for nothing secular Jew. And I would probably prefer the devout Christian in business matters too. So maybe I'm not as worried about the precious souls of my brethren as I once was, or maybe I've just met too many lousy Jews.

[Toga]

I think that Christianity is a false, pseudo-pagan faith.

Hmm...

[Mira]

Hmm...
Well...that is my own personal belief, but I still respect them despite this. Perhaps if I were a better Jew, I would work harder to be my brothers keeper and try to prevent more Jews from running after false gods, but I see Jews running after so many false gods that I don't know who to start with, maybe myself? Still, I wouldn't run after them with fear like you do. I would try to arm them with knowledge and give them reasons to believe that torah is a relavant and vital part of our people. Facts are, most of the true G-d fearing Christians I have met are more knowledgable about Jewish history and our torah than almost every non-frum Jew I've met. Many actually take what is written in our books to heart and try to live their lives guided by our principles. Can we say that for ourselves? Maybe Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, but look at what he did for the gentiles, or at least what Paul did in his name. Would the gentile nations know anything of the revelations of G-d if they had to look to the Jewish people today as G-d's earthly represenative?

[Toga]

[QUOTE]Well...that is my own personal belief, but I still respect them despite this. Perhaps if I were a better Jew, I would work harder to be my brothers keeper and try to prevent more Jews from running after false gods, but I see Jews running after so many false gods that I don't know who to start with, maybe myself?

After 2000 years of persecution the Jews have finally been embraced as the equal members of the society as long as they are not too Jewish. The Jews have wanted to be accepted for so long that they do not view the reduction of their Jewishness as a hefty price to pay for that acceptance.

Still, I wouldn't run after them with fear like you do

I don't fear them either. I just think that there should be a virtual place for us where we are not subjected to their annoying sales tactics. We can discuss politics with them but not our religious beliefs. We don't push our religion on them and they should not push theirs on us.

I would try to arm them with knowledge and give them reasons to believe that torah is a relavant and vital part of our people.

It does not matter what we do. They would still try to sell their stuff to us. There are a lot of frustrated salesmen running around but they still keep trying.

Facts are, most of the true G-d fearing Christians I have met are more knowledgable about Jewish history and our torah than almost every non-frum Jew I've met. Many actually take what is written in our books to heart and try to live their lives guided by our principles. Can we say that for ourselves?

I agree! Shame on us!

Maybe Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, but look at what he did for the gentiles, or at least what Paul did in his name. Would the gentile nations know anything of the revelations of G-d if they had to look to the Jewish people today as G-d's earthly represenative?

Well...whatever they learned/or did not learn it did not prevent them from exterminating the European Jewry.

[Rivka]

I started out in a Messianic Congergation, Beth Messiah. This lead me back to my families Jewish roots and made me think about how much there is missing in Christian churches today. Am I now not alowed to post that I am Messianic? My mother is Jewish, I am Jewish. I feel a bit out of it now. Sorry for the rant I just feel extreamly out of it.

[Mira]

I started out in a Messianic Congergation, Beth Messiah. This lead me back to my families Jewish roots and made me think about how much there is missing in Christian churches today. Am I now not alowed to post that I am Messianic? My mother is Jewish, I am Jewish. I feel a bit out of it now. Sorry for the rant I just feel extreamly out of it.

Please keep posting, Rivka. I was actually thinking about Jews like yourself when I responded to toga the second time, but I forgot to mention it. Things are much more complicated now that we aren't confined in little ghettos anymore. Judaism is as diverse now as it was during the days of Jesus. ;) A bunch of crystal-gazing, kool-aid drinking, mishugana Jews is what we have all become, or perhaps returned to. If you think that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who we rejected so that the rest of the world could be saved and that this Jesus will one day make a second appearance on this earth in some manifestation of his former self, and if Jesus makes you feel nearer to G-d, then who am I to deny you any of this? I know I sound a bit contradictory, but that's because I am of two different minds on this subject. I grew up in a frum sect, a very small yet vocal component of which actually thinks that another dead rabbi is Moshiach. Mind you, these are learned Jews, ones who have read Rambam and still somehow believe that a dead human can complete his mission to redeem our people from ten feet below! Is it the legacy of his teachings alone that will accomplish this? Why call such a person Moshiach? Why not call him simply tzaddik? Are we that far removed from torah that we need intermediaries? How are they different from Messianic Jews and where does this tendency to worship dead Jews come from? Ok, so the Christians have been "saved," I never knew that their souls needed saving, but ok. They have been "saved," but the rest of the world is still a mess, and we Jews still haven't been redeemed. We are all waiting....waiting for Jesus, R. Menachem Schneerson, and Zod. Nu?

[Toga]

I started out in a Messianic Congergation, Beth Messiah. This lead me back to my families Jewish roots and made me think about how much there is missing in Christian churches today. Am I now not alowed to post that I am Messianic? My mother is Jewish, I am Jewish. I feel a bit out of it now. Sorry for the rant I just feel extreamly out of it.

Any Jew whose mother is Jewish does remain a Jew even if he/she accepts a foreign idol. However, a Jew that prays or accepts an idol abdicates all his/hers rights as a Jew. In other words, you cannot be burried among the Jews, you will not be a part of the world to come, you cannot participate in a minyan, you cannot immigrate to Israel, etc.

Please keep something in mind, idol worship and Judaism are NOT compatible!

[Toga]

Please keep posting, Rivka. I was actually thinking about Jews like yourself when I responded to toga the second time, but I forgot to mention it. Things are much more complicated now that we aren't confined in little ghettos anymore. Judaism is as diverse now as it was during the days of Jesus. ;) A bunch of crystal-gazing, kool-aid drinking, mishugana Jews is what we have all become, or perhaps returned to. If you think that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who we rejected so that the rest of the world could be saved and that this Jesus will one day make a second appearance on this earth in some manifestation of his former self, and if Jesus makes you feel nearer to G-d, then who am I to deny you any of this? I know I sound a bit contradictory, but that's because I am of two different minds on this subject. I grew up in a frum sect, a very small yet vocal component of which actually thinks that another dead rabbi is Moshiach. Mind you, these are learned Jews, ones who have read Rambam and still somehow believe that a dead human can complete his mission to redeem our people from ten feet below! Is it the legacy of his teachings alone that will accomplish this? Why call such a person Moshiach? Why not call him simply tzaddik? Are we that far removed from torah that we need intermediaries? How are they different from Messianic Jews and where does this tendency to worship dead Jews come from? Ok, so the Christians have been "saved," I never knew that their souls needed saving, but ok. They have been "saved," but the rest of the world is still a mess, and we Jews still haven't been redeemed. We are all waiting....waiting for Jesus, R. Menachem Schneerson, and Zod. Nu?

During his life R. Menachem Schneerson did not visit Israel at least once. Also, HE PERSONALLY NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE WAS A MESSIAH. Please get your facts straight. He was a tzadek. He was brilliant and one of those incredible Jews we need to admire.

You know what they say: If grandma goes to a reform synagogue, the grandkids will go to a church. The differerence between you and others is that because of your background that you look down on you are knowledgeable and equipped not to be dragged into their stuff but keep up your attitude up and it will change. Your kids/grandkids will be involved in what you defined as

"I think that Christianity is a false, pseudo-pagan faith."

[Mira]

[QUOTE]You will not be a part of the world to come
Not so sure about that, and I would presume that the statement is incorect.

I take that back. You are correct.


The fact is that a Jew is a Jew and remains so if he was born to a Jewish mother or has undergone a Jewish conversion (the criterion of which is beyond the scope of this posting). This remains an immutable fact, irrespective of what the beliefs of that Jew were to be. (There is discussion in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 264:1 pertaining to certain Rabbinic requirements that a Jew who has entirely abandoned his Judaism, must undergo when he does return to his people. This too, is beyond the scope of our discussion.)

What is important to know is that there are fundamental beliefs that we as Jews must believe. Maimonides, one of our foremost codifiers of Jewish law and belief, states unequivocally that there are thirteen such principles and in his commentary to the Mishna (The basis of the compiled Oral Law as redacted by R' Judah The Prince,) expounds. In summary, after his lengthy exposition he writes "...[and] when these fundamental principles are established by a man and he truly believes in them, he then enters into a collective unit of Israel, and it is obligatory upon us to love him and to have compassion upon him and to do all that G-d has commanded us to do for one another, referring to acts of love and brotherhood. This is so even if he commits every possible sin by virtue of his lust or the mastery of his base nature. He will be punished according to the severity of his sins, but he has a portion in the World to Come, although he is one of the transgressors of Israel. But if a man is doubtful about one of these [thirteen] fundamental principles, he has removed himself from the collective unit [of Israel] and denies an absolute truth [of Judaism]. He is called a heretic and an apikores and a "destroyer of shoots"...."

Maimonides is clearly expressing the parameters of Judaism and not the oft quoted "being Jewish". Of course Maimonides knows that a Jew, once a Jew always a Jew, but not all Jews espouse Judaism! It is impossible to remain a believing Jew, a Jew that lives with Judaism, without accepting the thirteen principles that Maimonides so clearly expresses. Of course, in spite of the rejection, (G-d forbid), of any of those principles, one still remains a "biological" Jew. And yes, he is still mandated to follow all the precepts of the Torah, its laws and beliefs, and he will be held fully accountable for any shortcoming. It makes no difference whether he has embraced another belief system or not.

It is pernicious and cruel to "sell" to the ignorant public, otherwise. NO! One cannot "be a Jew" i.e. live a Jewish life, live Judaism, and accept anything other than what our Torah mandates and teaches.

http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/whojew.html

[Mira]

During his life R. Menachem Schneerson did not visit Israel at least once. Also, HE PERSONALLY NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE WAS A MESSIAH. Please get your facts straight. He was a tzadek. He was brilliant and one of those incredible Jews we need to admire.

You know what they say: If grandma goes to a reform synagogue, the grandkids will go to a church. Keep up your attitude up and you will accomplish it. Your kids/grandkids will be involved in what you defined as

Toga, I didn't grow up reform. I thought that was pretty clear from my post. I've got all my facts straight. You, however, are underinformed about what has happened within some splinter groups in the sect that I did grow up with.

[Toga]

True.


Not so sure about that, and I would presume that the statement is incorect.

[QUOTE]
Not a minyan with any of the Jews I grew up with anyway.


Anyone can immigrate to Israel, including non-Jews.

---------------------
re: minyan

I was talking about a male.

re: Israel

a so-called "Messianic Jew" cannot immigrate to Israel. A non-Jew can immigrate to Israel as a part of the Jewish family. Many non-Jews have.

re: world to come

they will not come out of the dead. Period!

[Toga]

Toga, I didn't grow up reform. I thought that was pretty clear from my post. I've got all my facts straight. You, however, are underinformed about what has happened within some splinter groups in the sect that I did grow up with.

Yes, we are meshugas but that what makes us wonderful. I envy your background. My immediate family is non-religious.

[Mira]

Yes, we are meshugas but that what makes us wonderful. I envy your background. My immediate family is non-religious.
I'm thankful for my upbringing. Still can't seem to return to observance, though. I'm kind of like frizzer, who feels more Jewish when he's not in Israel because he loses his sense of uniqueness when he's surrounded by so many Jews. I like arguing with frum Jews, an occasional proper Shabbat is always a nice reminder, and Simchat Torah is best celebrating among the observant. But I would still prefer to spend Shavuot with a mixture of non-observant and observant Jews and spend most of my time among secular Jews and non-Jews.

What about you, toga?

[Toga]

I'm thankful for my upbringing. Still can't seem to return to observance, though. I'm kind of like frizzer, who feels more Jewish when he's not in Israel because he loses his sense of uniqueness when he's surrounded by so many Jews. I like arguing with frum Jews, an occasional proper Shabbat is always a nice reminder, and Simchat Torah is best celebrating among the observant. But I would still prefer to spend Shavuot with a mixture of non-observant and observant Jews and spend most of my time among secular Jews and non-Jews.

What about you, toga?

LOL...typical Jewish trait: I like arguing

Again, you are well-trained and equipped to be able to differentiate and analyze. You have a strong sense of identity and you will not be swayed away. Most non-religious Jews are not as lucky because unlike you many are ignorant they don't know who and what they are. That is why they are targeted by the missionary groups. You may argue, debate, etc. but the missionaries do not stand a chance with you.

[Toga]

I started out in a Messianic Congergation, Beth Messiah. This lead me back to my families Jewish roots and made me think about how much there is missing in Christian churches today. Am I now not alowed to post that I am Messianic? My mother is Jewish, I am Jewish. I feel a bit out of it now. Sorry for the rant I just feel extreamly out of it.

You sound weak and vulnerable. You need counseling. Find yourself a rabbi in your area and go talk to him. Also, this is a good start:

www.messiahtruth.com

www.askmoses.com

www.jewsforjudaism.org

[Mira]

LOL...typical Jewish trait

...and is it also typical to ignore people's questions?

[Toga]

LOL...

I am non-religious...

send me a pm, please!

[Mediocrates]

[QUOTE=Mira]True.


Not so sure about that, and I would presume that the statement is incorect.



---------------------
re: minyan

I was talking about a male.

re: Israel

a so-called "Messianic Jew" cannot immigrate to Israel. A non-Jew can immigrate to Israel as a part of the Jewish family. Many non-Jews have.

re: world to come

they will not come out of the dead. Period!


If by that you mean can you get a messianic 'Jewish Rabbi' to sign off on the appropriate paperwork that Israel would find acceptable and legitimate, the answer is probably no.

[Mediocrates]

Yes, we are meshugas but that what makes us wonderful. I envy your background. My immediate family is non-religious.


I hear there's a big holy day next week, what's your plan?

[Mediocrates]

Any Jew whose mother is Jewish does remain a Jew even if he/she accepts a foreign idol.

yes

However, a Jew that prays or accepts an idol abdicates all his/hers rights as a Jew.

Talmudically, no. He may abdicate his rights as a human being though. but since no earthly court can judge that the point is moot.

In other words, you cannot be buried among the Jews, you will not be a part of the world to come, you cannot participate in a minyan,

Depends on your particular don't ask, don't tell policy. Strictly speaking one would have to be excommunicated. I believe that was also discussed at length in the Talmud in the context of the Roman wars and which specific mitzvoth can be abandoned and under which conditions.

you cannot immigrate to Israel, etc.

If you are already born Jewish then it's entirely acceptable to make aliyah.

[Toga]

If you are already born Jewish then it's entirely acceptable to make aliyah.

Call the Israel Alyah Center and tell them that your mom is Jewish but you are an idol worshipper. Please let us know what they tell to you.

[Toga]

Mediocrates,

Again you can argue the issues because you are knowledgeable but the Christian missionaries do not stand a chance with you.

Keep in mind, most ignorant secular Jews are not like you. That is why they are targeted by the missionaries.

[Mira]

LOL...

I am non-religious...

send me a pm, please!

No, I won't pm you. I want you to tell me on the board what your favorite story is from the torah. I bet Rivka or any of the Christian missionary members can, and they can tell us not only which one, but why. If you can't share something from the torah that you relate to, then tell us your favorite Jewish story or experience that makes you feel like you want to contribute to the development of our people and traditions.

[Mediocrates]

Call the Israel Alyah Center and tell them that your mom is Jewish but you are an idol worshipper. Please let us know what they tell to you.

Not really. Just go to a mainstream Rabbi, Orthodox or Masorti or convince him or her of your genuine intentions. If you are successful at that then there is no further debate. I'm reasonably sure that 'idol worship' is not a common term anymore. More likely one would say "All Hail Satan" or "Kiss me, I'm a Young Republican" and we could still cleanse you of your sins.

See my point is simple. Judaism permits 'falling away' some would even call it apostacy and one can still be a Jew.

[Mediocrates]

Mediocrates,

Again you can argue the issues because you are knowledgeable but the Christian missionaries do not stand a chance with you.

Keep in mind, most ignorant secular Jews are not like you. That is why they are targeted by the missionaries.

Well then I blame their parents.

[Toga]

Well then I blame their parents.

I agree with you.

I am, however, amazed at the lack of your compassion toward Rivka who seems to be very troubled. You know as well as I do that sending her to a "Messianic rabbi" is like sending her to a voodoo therapist. Messianic Judaism is not recognized. Actually, that is exactly what the missionaries are trying to accomplish. They want to recruit enough Jews to be recognized as one of the mainstreams of Judaism.

A Jew who believes in idols is like a bird without the wings.

[Toga]

No, I won't pm you. I want you to tell me on the board what your favorite story is from the torah. I bet Rivka or any of the Christian missionary members can, and they can tell us not only which one, but why. If you can't share something from the torah that you relate to, then tell us your favorite Jewish story or experience that makes you feel like you want to contribute to the development of our people and traditions.

Oy, what did I get myself into?

Hon, the era of Groria Steinem and Betty Friedan is long gone.

[Mira]

Oy, what did I get myself into?

Hon, the era of Groria Steinem and Betty Friedan is long gone.

What did you get yourself into? Is that a typical Jewish question? And I don't know what a couple of feminists have to do with anything. Maybe you can explain that too, or maybe you want to tell me about your relationship with your mother? Was she Jewish?

[Mediocrates]

One of us, one of us, one of us (http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~mgb/penguin.jpg)

[Toga]

good question!

I have to report to my mom on a daily basis. Do you think it qualifies her as being Jewish.

Yes, mom is not just Jewish. She is very, very Jewish.

[Mediocrates]

Philip Roth Jewish?

[Ephraim]

I must say; I am impressed with the quality of the people on this thread. Fine, upstanding citizens.

If you will just send me your address, I have some young men on bicycles who would like to visit you. The "whiteshirts" are coming...the "whiteshirts" are coming......

:D

[Mira]

I must say; I am impressed with the quality of the people on this thread. Fine, upstanding citizens.

Well, we're no Joseph Smith (PBUH). :D

[Mira]

I have to report to my mom on a daily basis. Do you think it qualifies her as being Jewish.
It could just as easily qualify her as Arab.

[Toga]

I must say; I am impressed with the quality of the people on this thread. Fine, upstanding citizens.

If you will just send me your address, I have some young men on bicycles who would like to visit you. The "whiteshirts" are coming...the "whiteshirts" are coming......

:D

They do come by regularly and are always polite. Should I invite them in for a chat?

[Toga]

It could just as easily qualify her as Arab.

I am sure there are some similarities.

[Ephraim]

They do come by regularly and are always polite. Should I invite them in for a chat?


Sure. But they know the ketchup/abortion trick by now :)

Our missionaries are really not supposed to teach Jewish folk at this time. They would, of course, if you really wanted it, but they are supposed to concentrate on the Gentiles. I have known a couple of Jewish Mormons and they have brought a lot of understanding of the Old/New Testament during Sunday School. I even went to a Jewish Passover service a year ago hosted by one of them. The bitter herbs were NOT my favorite part of the event.

Tell them I said hi, and that Medio (pbuh) really needs their help....and to ask Medio WHY he was wearing a Hazmat suit in his house the last time they came...and exactly what was he cooking???

:cool: :eek:

[Toga]

Do't you know the answers? Don't you live in Utah?

[Ephraim]

Do't you know the answers? Don't you live in Utah?


Well I think Medio was either making a really hot BBQ sauce or something that blows up. I