Future Chinese, Indian, Israeli Alliance

[Mr. Pumps]

:) Don't think this is a possibility.

Well China will not support Pakistan forever if the turkish cultured Muslims in it's northwestern Uighur territory push their fight to another level.

At this point the Chinese are tolerent of Pakinsan, but any large uprising in the Uigher province will make the Chinese cold to Pakistan and all Muslims.

When that happens, the leadership in Beijing will realise alot more is gained by joining forces with the good ol Hindus, who are inturn friendswith the state of Israel, than some fanatical Muslim republic.

The 1 billion India and tiny 6 Million Israel became best buddies because of the Islamic misquito created for them a huge itch. Well, Israeli fans... once the Chinese are bitten enough by the Islamic bug to fell a huge itch don't expect them to be on the side of any Muslim nation.

Israel would do good to cater to both India and China as allies.

[Mr. Pumps]

If Israel in the middle of the abyss, the Han Chinese are experiencing:

"China's 'Chechnya': a power keg of mistrust, hatred

By Liz Sly Chicago Tribune, 10/19/99
<<Boston Globe>>"

Do you honestly think if a Islamic explosion happens it this area of China, Beijing will not harden to Muslims.

If there is a major full scale conflict with Islam all over the globe and the situation explodes .China, Israel, Russia and India will all be active involved agianst the Islamic horde.

So make the friends now to prevent isolation tommorrow when a helping hand or friend would have done some good.

[redcake]

I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?

[takeo]

those chinese were uygur-fundamentalist fighters, not exactly in service of the Communist Party...
those theories don't work, russia is already faced with violence from islamic origin, as well as Yougoslavia and china, but those countries are good friends with other Muslim countries as iraq, Syria, Libia, or Iran.
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
Those countries don't think as you guys, they don't see the muslim world as one entity, because they know every country is different, you can't say the "Islamic world" as one entity as you can't compare ethiopia and Poland because they are both christian...
india is the ennemy of pakistan, not of the entire Islamic world, China is the ennemy of Uygur separatists (and their afghan friends), not of the entire Islamic world, etc.

[Night_Flight]

do you all think that alliances should be establish according to religon?

i have the impression that you want alliances for israel that have problems with muslims.

is it about religon or geography? i know israel are all surrounded by arab-muslims countries and they dont let israel to live in peace.

but this thought is wrong. iran is also muslim but israel and iran were allies in the 70's

turkey is also muslim. and Turkey is the greatest ally of israel now.

[MGB8]

You forget that the cold war ended failry recently.

Putin has been fairly warm to Israel.

While Russia still has alliance, particularly in arms-selling, with many Muslim nations, the fact that it produces its own oil and the greater the islamic fundamentalist threat, the less tolerant Russia will be of the countries that support and encourage that threat: ie. Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Syria, Lybia, Iraq.




Originally posted by takeo
those chinese were uygur-fundamentalist fighters, not exactly in service of the Communist Party...
those theories don't work, russia is already faced with violence from islamic origin, as well as Yougoslavia and china, but those countries are good friends with other Muslim countries as iraq, Syria, Libia, or Iran.
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
Those countries don't think as you guys, they don't see the muslim world as one entity, because they know every country is different, you can't say the "Islamic world" as one entity as you can't compare ethiopia and Poland because they are both christian...
india is the ennemy of pakistan, not of the entire Islamic world, China is the ennemy of Uygur separatists (and their afghan friends), not of the entire Islamic world, etc.

[redcake]

I'm still at a loss as to how anyone could construe China as a potential
partner for Israel.

Turkey at least had a history of religious tolerance during the Ottoman rule.
The Iran-Israel connection started a lot more covert, and was more about arms trading then mutual relations...so it's a terrible comparison.

There is a union of Muslim nations that we can't ignore. Even if they hate each other, it's been enough to unite them with dillusional dreams of a holy war. Any country that funds, or fuels this dream in any way can't possibly be a good "friend of Israel" candidate (and yes I question how loyal the US has been of late)

[kauffner]

For all three countries, their relationship with the U.S. is far more important than their relationships with each other. If, say, Israel is pro-American while China is anti-American, I don't see how they can be allies. Once the U.S. liberates Iraq, the whole worldwide Islamic threat issue will look dated and no one will be forming alliances to oppose Islam.

[takeo]

Iraq is not a fundamentalist country, Islam is much less important than Arab nationalism for the iraqi regime;
I agree however that the relations with the US are more important than shared religious values.
Russia is already 10 year faced with fundamentalist terror, particularly in Tchechnia, yet the relations with Iran, Iraq and Libia became much closer than before... (ps: all of those countries have no relations whatsoever with the Chechens, who were supported only by the Taliban, that's all that matters for the Russians)

[Evgeni]

Russia will be parters with anyone who buys russian products. this was a mistake for russia because now in grozny we see russian Ak-94 fighting Chechen Ak-47.

[Vic]

Originally posted by redcake
I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?
There were some Uygurs there, who are not exactly Chinese: http://www.uygur.org . But then the Taliban employed - trainees? mercenaries? - from the whole world.

[Mr. Pumps]

I once heard a saying" Dire situations makes for strange bedbuddies".

With that, I wonder if multiple situations exploded at once like the India-Pakistan standoff, Israel-Palestian conflict, ethnic unstability in China and Russia would these nations not beome unified, leaving America in the Dark with NATO.

[elke]

I don't see Israel ever really not being friends with the US. While China is a powerful nation, and will likely become even more powerful, they have much catching up to do in order to even come close to the US in international clout. Israel needs all the help it can get, as far as international support is concerned, and neither India nor China will be able to provide it for many years to come.

Aside from that, there is something to be said for basic similarities and long-term amity also. While relations between countries are usually based on strategic interests rather than on friendly feelings, when a situation does not affect one's strategic interest, that country will act based on its affinities.

[takeo]

what are the affinities between Russia/India/China/Yougoslavia/israel except that they fight people who seem to belong to the muslim faith?
China is the one of best friends and weapon-suppliers of Iran, it also has excellent relations with Pakistan.

[elke]

Mostly, strategic interests here - and not only fighting the same types of people.

[Mr. Pumps]

The billion Muslims of the world should wage a Jihad against Israel, India, China, Russia and the US. They will be no more and only Islam will rule all over the world."

-Al Badr militants quoted in Nawa-I-waqt 21st November 2000

Here is your reason.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
The billion Muslims of the world should wage a Jihad against Israel, India, China, Russia and the US. They will be no more and only Islam will rule all over the world."

-Al Badr militants quoted in Nawa-I-waqt 21st November 2000

Here is your reason.

"Politics make strange bedfellows" - and militant Muslims make even stranger ones :D

[takeo]

not only China, Russia, india, etc. hate those extremists, but as well many Muslim countries, not in the last place Iran...
I can't imagine ayatollah Khamenei being my bedfellow...

[elke]

OK, now we are getting rowdy! Calm down, Takeo! :)

[takeo]

I know, it's becoming embarrassing :o
I had some other comment but will keep my mouth shut... :)

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by takeo
not only China, Russia, india, etc. hate those extremists, but as well many Muslim countries, not in the last place Iran...
I can't imagine ayatollah Khamenei being my bedfellow...

Not really Iran is a terrorist sponser, in private many Muslim nations cater to Militant nonsense.

[takeo]

yes, but not the same militant nonsense...

Iran was one of the harshest ennemies of the taliban.

[Evgeni]

there are millions of muslims in Russia, the rebublic of Tatarstan is 50% muslim. russia's problem is with chechnya not Palestine.

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
Iran was one of the harshest ennemies of the taliban.


The reason that Iran and the Taliban don't like each other is because of 2 major points;

1) Iran is a Sh'iite Muslim country and the Taliban are mostly made up of Sunni Muslims who come from Arab countires.
Sh'iite muslims are kinda having problems right now in places like Pakistan, where they killed a couple of people not so long ago. Sunni's call them traitors and persecute them where possible.

2) Iran hates Taliban, because of the drug import to Iran. Don't get me wrong, Iran has enough Drugs inside there borders growing, but the taliban also had some drug import to the country. Many people would say that the Taliban were against Drugs in all forms, but that was the case, because what they would do when they would just break-even, is that they would ship Opium to Iran for money that the dealers give them.
How does this match Iran...
Well simply because in the past 3 years, about 105 Border Soldiers from Iran were either kidnapped, shoot, mutilated or maimed by one of the taliban.

Also, Iran has a drug abuse problem. Iran doesn't not talk about it, but to this date, 4-8 Million people are doing drugs in Iran and around 2 million of that are hard drug takers who use Cocaine and Opium. Due to the hard-line image, there is no help and no international critism that is being made.

So now, you ask why Taliban and Iran aren't the best of pals?

[Mediocrates]

The reason that Iran and the Taliban don't like each other is..


yeah - some beauty contest.

[Mr. Pumps]

Iran and the Iraq did'nt like each other but now the whole arab world is uniting. So Iran and the Taliban never liked each other, but the more American involvement is given to the Northern alliance, the more Iran will turn to someone else like the Taliban.

And Russia if not Fighting Chechens only they are fighting Arab Mujahadeen form around the World in Chechnya.

[takeo]

"there are millions of muslims in Russia, the rebublic of Tatarstan is 50% muslim. russia's problem is with chechnya not Palestine."

absolutely

yes, pushtak, that's right... and I would add that they also hate eachother because it's a whole different kind of fundamentalism, the Taliban being much more extremist, and Iran is an ally of Russia and China, while the Taliban was the worst ennemy of those countries. And last but not least the Haaraza minority has been oppressed and persecuted by the Taliban, and those people have very close links with the Iranian regime.
The northern alliance has always been an ally of Iran, since the days of the Soviet-invasion, so Iran is quite friendly to the new regime.
it is true the differences between iran and Iraq, which are still very wide, are diminushing primarily because of the US-policy against Iraq which is criticised in the whole Muslim-world AND in Russia and China, and because the war-mongering "axis of evil-speech", which brought the two treatened countries closer together.

[Pushtak18]

Both Iraq and Iran have opened new diplomatic alliances with each other. After the 1980-1988 Iran/Iraq war, they have signed a treaty proclaiming reconcilation with one another.


through out the years that followed, Iraq and Iran didn't do much. As far as i can remember, there was problems in January of 2001, where Scud missiles were exchanged at the border between Iraq and Iran.

Moreover, Iraq supports groups that want to overthrow the Ayatollah's, vice-verca, the Iranians have groups like the kurds and other small minority's including the Sh'iites that live in Iraq to try and overthrow saddam hussien.

But any any account, Iran/Iraq already had agreements for air space and probably will be getting some free trade maybe.

The Chechens were some chechens, but there was alot of Arabs who joined the fight.

[takeo]

that's right about Iraq-iran.

yes, extremists connected to the Taliban supported the chechens, but no Iranians, Palestinians, etc. and also no Muslims from other regions in Russia who live in peace.
by the way Chechens are supported by Georgia as well, a Christian nation.

[Mediocrates]

Are there any other terrorist organizations or nations besides the PLO and its ilk you support too?

[Pushtak18]

takeo,


Georgia does not support Chechnya, no one does!! And in Georgia you can find some muslims. But the question here is that there is Palestinians and Iranians in Chechnya. Can i say that there directly from Gaza/West Bank...maybe, but there is some.


Also, go to the Kurdistan area, where Arabs are fighting the kurds and you'll find plenty of Palestinians who are fighting! I saw the documentry about it and there was an interview by a Rebel who was from Jericho!

So don't hide nothing, crook!

[elke]

Georgians are by and large, Russian Orthodox Christians, not Muslim. IMHO, any support the Georgians have for the Chechens is either due to blackmail, or anti-Russian feelings.

[takeo]

I would bet on the last option...
maybe your mother knows more about it ;)

Palestinians fighting in Kurdistan???
I am still very angry that our country didn't help the Kurdish leader Ocalan!
Palestinians fighting in Chechnia??????

yes, mediocrates, i support the PKK in Turkey (some friends organised some manifestations for the Kurds), who fight for their freedom as well, and the polisario-front in Western Sahara, occupied by Morocco. I also have some sympathy for guerilla-organisations in Latin America such as the zapatistas, and for the IRA in Northern Ireland.

[Pushtak18]

takeo,

There was a documentary that was made 4 months after Sept .11 called "THE FIGHT IN KURDISTAN" it showed the daily fighting that goes on between Kurds and Arab fighters. There were palestinians there fighting, as well as Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese and Yemenese, they were all interviewed...

Arabs did help in Chechnya and i am positive that Palestinians were involved in the fighting as well. Are u trying to defend palestinain foreign terrorist?

Why not defend the 1994 Nerve Gas bombing of the Japanese subway system by that blind dude! It was the master work of the Palestinians PLFP. Going to deny that also mr sympathizer?

Your support for international terror groups will only lead you to one thing...A stright bullet in the middle of the forehead!

I just can't wait to see a terror group, blowing off your legs in a bus you taking through paris!

It will happen! it will!

[takeo]

"There was a documentary that was made 4 months after Sept .11 called "THE FIGHT IN KURDISTAN" it showed the daily fighting that goes on between Kurds and Arab fighters. There were palestinians there fighting, as well as Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese and Yemenese, they were all interviewed... "

let me guess, a documentory of the israeli television?
do you even know where Kurdistan is and what countries have Kurdish minorities?

One of the greatest oppressers of the Kurds is nato-ally Turkey...

"Arabs did help in Chechnya and i am positive that Palestinians were involved in the fighting as well. Are u trying to defend palestinain foreign terrorist? "

I have never heard of Palestinians involved in chechnia, i know some Arab extremists linked to Al-Quaida fight on the chechens side (wahhabits, as far as i know Wahhabitism is not existing in Palestine)

Why not defend the 1994 Nerve Gas bombing of the Japanese subway system by that blind dude! It was the master work of the Palestinians PLFP. Going to deny that also mr sympathizer? "

OK, the PLFP bombed the Japanese subway? :rolleyes:

"Your support for international terror groups will only lead you to one thing...A stright bullet in the middle of the forehead! "

so you think Turkish policy against the Kurdish people is all-right? that Kurds are only right to resist if they live in an Arab country?

"I just can't wait to see a terror group, blowing off your legs in a bus you taking through paris! "

you're too kind...

"It will happen! it will!"

sure...the last terrorist attack in Paris was in the middle of the 90's, I don't remember if anyone was killed. but still i think YOU have slightly more chance of being blown in the air than me... and your palestinian brothers have even more chance of being blown in the air by an israeli missile, automatic gun or tank.

[Mediocrates]

I WAS there. The bombing of the Mt. St. Michel Metro station. I think about 67 French persons were slaughtered. And some PLO offshoot claimed responsibility. One week later a trashcan bomb went off near the Louvre and killed 6 or 7

I find it hard to believe you don't remember. All the public garbage cans in Paris we're bolted shut and garbage piled up in the streets - it was August, imagine the stench.

[Pushtak18]

"let me guess, a documentory of the israeli television?
do you even know where Kurdistan is and what countries have Kurdish minorities?"

No, it was on MSNBC, it was showing it at around 7PM. And yes; the countries that have Kurdish minorities are Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and i think there is a small little community in Lebanon, i am not sure about it. But on any account there is fighting in the kurd region and the aggressors are arabs, some come from Pakistan, but you can't ignore the fact that there are palestinians fighting against the kurds. This is something you had to digest in your sick mind...After all, Palestinians aren't gods gift to women, are they?

"One of the greatest oppressers of the Kurds is nato-ally Turkey..."

True, that turkey still oppresses the Kurds, but there is talk. I wouldn't assume that you would have Iraq on that list of oppressed people, cause i they did the most damadge to them!

"I have never heard of Palestinians involved in chechnia, i know some Arab extremists linked to Al-Quaida fight on the chechens side (wahhabits, as far as i know Wahhabitism is not existing in Palestine)"

True, and some Al-Quida members are palestinians, if you are so sure that palestinians did not fight in Chechnya, than you must have known the army bases and terror camps in Chechnya to have known all fighters and to ask them personally in Arabic if there from Palestinian origings or not, think about it.....
Muslims came all around to fight this one, and there are plenty of palestinians who go. Infact, i'll give you a good direction of how they went through. What they did was go in Jordan, and from Jordan head to Iran and then to Chechnya. That is one route i heard they took...

"OK, the PLFP bombed the Japanese subway?"

No, they didn't bomb it, they masterminded it. It was the religou cult leader who had committed the act, and it wasn't a bomb, it was nerve gas. The Palestinians must have created it and then logiticly moved it to the subway.
Palestinians and Japanese groups have always been in good hand. I never heard much about the incident thought, when it happened the Palestinian Committe office was searched and then closed for 3 months in Japan after that. So maybe there was a huge connection between the japanese terror cell, the PFLP and even the PA-PLO!!!! Be careful when you underestimate this!

"so you think Turkish policy against the Kurdish people is all-right? that Kurds are only right to resist if they live in an Arab country?"

I think there is a sort of diplomacy that Kurds have with the Turkish government, but i think it is still low level. The problem that we have in the middle east with Israel and Palestinians is more important and many are ignoring it. I think there will be a comprisable peace, but you have to understand...when Kurdistan will want independence (just like your crooks, "PALESTINIANS") than they will ask for land twice as bigger than Israel and in the land range of Turkey-Syria-Iran-Iraq. There is a lot of blame on both sides on this, and i think there should be a 5 ring conference that will deal it out, but right now 3 out of the 5 delegates aren't willing to risk talking with the kurds, ironicly they are the arab countires....what do you know?


"sure...the last terrorist attack in Paris was in the middle of the 90's, I don't remember if anyone was killed. but still i think YOU have slightly more chance of being blown in the air than me... and your palestinian brothers have even more chance of being blown in the air by an israeli missile, automatic gun or tank."

TAKEO

Didn't say there will be terror attacks, but how can u think that your just free in france to roam around. Terror is uninvitable thing. And when you encourage and promote terror, than one day it will come to your shores. And then you will ask yourself, many questions, or better yet....other people will ask you!
Palestinians aren't my brothers..... If they were they would have some sanity of acting like it. Just because Arafat cause me a Cousin and then interupts the interviewer and calls Israelis Nazis doesn't really mean he is very close to us, no?
As for the missile talk, well...... Palestinians are asking for it, and most of the palestinians who have been "blown off" are the ones who commit to terror and are getting the go ahead from the PA.

Remember, there were steps to not have a Palestinian terrorist killed! Israel gave letters after letter to PA, and to the US, and to EU and to every diplomat who came to the region, and it didn't work. So in other words "If Palestinians cannot take out the trash, the Israelis will" and we'll take care of him for free!!

[takeo]

"I WAS there. The bombing of the Mt. St. Michel Metro station. I think about 67 French persons were slaughtered. And some PLO offshoot claimed responsibility. One week later a trashcan bomb went off near the Louvre and killed 6 or 7

I find it hard to believe you don't remember. All the public garbage cans in Paris we're bolted shut and garbage piled up in the streets - it was August, imagine the stench.
"


the last attacks, all of them on metro-stations, were in 1995 (Saint-Michel metro-station, 8 casualties, and Musée d'Orsay, no casualties) and 1996(2 casualties), the one before dating back to 1986.
The responsible has been convicted in 1999 and was Algerian, linked to the Algerian extremist organisation GIA.

http://www.protectioncivile.org/Activite/1982-1999/activite_1982_1999.htm

At the moment of those attacks in 1995 i was not in Paris, but i remember quite well the attack of 1996 in the Port-Royal station, which i used quite often.
It is right that no trash-cans were allowed in the metro, as terrorists could hide their bomb in it. And all people were suspicious of a bag that was left, more than one suitcase or rucksack has been "demined"... In that period suicide-bombing was not yet a world-wide fasion...

[cerulean]

It was July 25, 1995 at the Saint-Michel subway station in Paris. The casualty figures were less than Mediocrates recalls. It killed seven and wounded over one hundred.

Do you remember it now takeo?

[Mediocrates]

thank you for the clarification -

[takeo]

Arabs are oppressing Kurds, that's absolutely right, most of all in Iraq, but i never heard of palestinians involved in this. Talks with Kurds in Turkey? You must be kidding, the turkish regime has refused all talks with "terrorists" and keeps destroying whole villages in Kurdistan or "eastern anatolia" as they prefere to call it... Turkey and iraq are together the greatest ennemies of the Kurdish people, but in Iraq the repression stopped since the gulf-war whereas in Turkey it is going on full speed, WITH US-assistance (the us also assisted in the capture of "terrorist" Ocalan in Kenya). (but neither are occupying kurdistan, as they act inside the international borders of their country, except Turkey that regularly invade Kurdish Iraq). it is strange that suddenly you feel that Kurds aren't so innocent after all if fighting the Turks, but of course ANYONE fighting the Arabs must be right. There is no negociation whatsoever between the PKK and Turkey, in fact you can risk imprisonment for just talking Kurdish...
The Turkish generals have a lot in common with Sharon, "no talks with TERRORISTS".



I have never been to chechen terror camps to search for Palestinians, neither have you i assume...

Your "route" is BS, Iran is not helping the Chechens, on the contrary, it will never do anything against the interests of Moscow, its most important ally. actually the normal route for Chechen terrorists goes trough nato-ally Turkey (quite sympathetic to the Chechens) and of course Georgia, the safe heaven for Chechen terrorists. Iran has no border with Tchechnia, nor Azerbaidjan.

"No, they didn't bomb it, they masterminded it. It was the religou cult leader who had committed the act, and it wasn't a bomb, it was nerve gas. The Palestinians must have created it and then logiticly moved it to the subway.
Palestinians and Japanese groups have always been in good hand. I never heard much about the incident thought, when it happened the Palestinian Committe office was searched and then closed for 3 months in Japan after that. So maybe there was a huge connection between the japanese terror cell, the PFLP and even the PA-PLO!!!! Be careful when you underestimate this! "

LOL :rolleyes: impressive evidence and credibility of your complot-theory... , i guess the PFLP had connections with T. McVeigh too...

"Terror is uninvitable thing. And when you encourage and promote terror, than one day it will come to your shores."

that's right, the uS got its fair share for promoting terrorism in Afghanistan in the 80's...

"Palestinians are asking for it"

of course every oppressor will say that its victims "were asking for it" (just saw a documentory about operation barbarossa, the german soldiers killing 1000's of ukrainian civilians said the same sentence...)

[elke]

Actually, there is some evidence that Timothy McVeigh was in contact with MidEastern groupies of some sort. I will have to look at this more, but from what I understand, there were meetings between T. McVeigh and...I don't remember who they said it was, but whoever was from ME.

[takeo]

:confused:
That's the first time i read this...
i tought he was a rightwing fanatic fighting against "UN-domination of america" or something like that... .

I think that the PFLP was responsible for Wako too... :cool:

[elke]

He was a right-wing fanatic, but this news show I saw said that he was looking to buy something or other from the MidEastern guy. From what they said, it didn't sound like a "conspiracy" type of thing, but rather a "business relationship".

That was before the surgery, and I did have a few Percosets :) ; but I do remember it.

[Pushtak18]

"Arabs are oppressing Kurds, that's absolutely right, most of all in Iraq, but i never heard of palestinians involved in this. Talks with Kurds in Turkey? You must be kidding, the turkish regime has refused all talks with "terrorists" and keeps destroying whole villages in Kurdistan or "eastern anatolia" as they prefere to call it... Turkey and iraq are together the greatest ennemies of the Kurdish people, but in Iraq the repression stopped since the gulf-war whereas in Turkey it is going on full speed, WITH US-assistance (the us also assisted in the capture of "terrorist" Ocalan in Kenya). (but neither are occupying kurdistan, as they act inside the international borders of their country, except Turkey that regularly invade Kurdish Iraq). it is strange that suddenly you feel that Kurds aren't so innocent after all if fighting the Turks, but of course ANYONE fighting the Arabs must be right. There is no negociation whatsoever between the PKK and Turkey, in fact you can risk imprisonment for just talking Kurdish...
The Turkish generals have a lot in common with Sharon, "no talks with TERRORISTS".

Im not sure what the organization calls themselves, somehting like Al-Qanon (like al-qieda) whom fight in the mountins with Kurds, there isn't much, there just shooting back in forth at one another. Palestinians from both Jordan and West bank and fighting with them and have been documented, there is even some leaders who call themselves Palestinians.......
Turkey in the past have had talks with the Kurds. Israel doesn't not have anything to do with Turkey because we unfortunetly have to negotiate with Terrorist, while the turkish don't, its all International diplomacy and its not fair!!! But Turkey made some truce with them over the years, and towards the arrest of Oclean in 1998, the PKK committed some shoot outs and kidnapps. Infact, ever since his arrest, there was a drop of attacks on turk's and even a drop in Trafficing, somehow...
if i was turkey i would have slid open Oclean's throat!!!!
Remember, Kurds and Israel has good relations in all, but when you bring up PKK and terror you cannot have one hand that shakes and a knife in the other, its just not 'kosher'!


"I have never been to chechen terror camps to search for Palestinians, neither have you i assume...

Your "route" is BS, Iran is not helping the Chechens, on the contrary, it will never do anything against the interests of Moscow, its most important ally. actually the normal route for Chechen terrorists goes trough nato-ally Turkey (quite sympathetic to the Chechens) and of course Georgia, the safe heaven for Chechen terrorists. Iran has no border with Tchechnia, nor Azerbaidjan"

No, but just like the Kurdistan-Arab fighting that you agreed with me there has been numerous Palestinians in the fight. Like i said, somehow you are cutting Arabs from Palestinians eventhough they have the same genetic root for in there blood. It doesn't matter who is fighting who, i don't care if its a sudanese, Somalian or Syrian Arab, if there fighting against a cause then thats them, it doesn't matter where they come from or where they are. Palestinians did fight in Chechnya, because there was an arab populus there, and plus there was Ties to Al-Quida, so many Arabs (as well as palestinians) came to Chechnya.

Sure, they don't have borders, but they do have a large sea..The Caspian sea, which can transport weapons and fighters!!! Most of the caught came from Iran. Turkey has had some go to Chechnya, but it locked there borders good. I doubt that they will be able to do such a thing like that now! The Caspian sea is the main route they go to, they cannot cross borders cause there is alot of security and checkpoints, so.....Sea is much better.
And if IRan wanted to clear themselves from Russian despise they shouldn't have supported the Afghans in the 1980's and they shouldn't have clerics calling a jihad on Russia!!


"LOL impressive evidence and credibility of your complot-theory... , i guess the PFLP had connections with T. McVeigh too"

Who knows, but what i do know is that the Japanese Terror and the palestinian terror have always been helping one another. A Japanese Red Army fighter went into LOD AIRPORT in tel-aviv and killed 26 Israelis on the PLO (CHAIRMAN ARAFAT) commend. And i think the PLO was resbonsible for murdering 3 Japanese Diplmats in Greece.

On a lighter note, the women leader of the Japanese Red Army spread her legs to some guy from the PFLP and now have a daughter who is around 22 and living in Japan who does heroine and goes to kids schools in Japan trying to teach kids middle eastern culture and how to eat a humus........... How remarkable, of how terror kids grow up to be........

"that's right, the uS got its fair share for promoting terrorism in Afghanistan in the 80's"

How did the US promote terror in Afganistan?

"of course every oppressor will say that its victims "were asking for it" (just saw a documentory about operation barbarossa, the german soldiers killing 1000's of ukrainian civilians said the same sentence...)"

Listen, you don't live in Israel..... Like you said about Iran in another thread here, that the US shoud Mind there own business in dealing with Iranian issues, so should the international community deal with Israel!
your seeing 50 years of conflict for the hourglass of 20 months. And thats not worth it!!!
Terrorism is an un-expected thing, you have suicide bombers who are the answer to being against the peace process. The only reason that terror was launched against Israel was because of Israels willingness to forsee the PLO as a legitimate partner and a futurue palestinian state as a legitimate deal. What did we get in return...... Terror! From giving them Autnomy and weapons to defend themselves.

I don't think there was one time where you had a sucide bomber kill himself on because of his feelings. It was his feelings, it was more of the way to make the peace process un-stable and thats what they did. Its not a phenomena that you have secretary of states go to Israel and than have a bombing! It happened with Albright as well. When you have someone who expects to commit terror and they have bomb strapped to themselves that tell you and everyone around you that he wants to kill himself and others, than if you kill him, are u the bad guy...
after all, he was ASKING FOR IT!!

[takeo]

"Turkey in the past have had talks with the Kurds. Israel doesn't not have anything to do with Turkey because we unfortunetly have to negotiate with Terrorist, while the turkish don't, its all International diplomacy and its not fair!!! But Turkey made some truce with them over the years, and towards the arrest of Oclean in 1998, the PKK committed some shoot outs and kidnapps. Infact, ever since his arrest, there was a drop of attacks on turk's and even a drop in Trafficing, somehow...
if i was turkey i would have slid open Oclean's throat!!!!
Remember, Kurds and Israel has good relations in all, but when you bring up PKK and terror you cannot have one hand that shakes and a knife in the other, its just not 'kosher'! "

So, you call the Kurdish people and their organisations in Turkey terrorists if they fight against the Turkish military regime, but of course in Iraq they are "freedom-fighters" and "persecuted" because fighting against Arabs. :rolleyes:
it shows how biased you are.
actually Ocalan has called for a truce, but the Turks never accepted even the slighest reforms, such as making the Kurdish language legal and stopping the repression, let alone talks with the PKK.




"No, but just like the Kurdistan-Arab fighting that you agreed with me there has been numerous Palestinians in the fight."

I didn't, i don't know and never heard so from any reliable source.

the only thing Chechens and Arabs have in common is their religion, and Chechens fight for independance, not for the Holy Islamic war....

"Sure, they don't have borders, but they do have a large sea..The Caspian sea, which can transport weapons and fighters!!! Most of the caught came from Iran. Turkey has had some go to Chechnya, but it locked there borders good. I doubt that they will be able to do such a thing like that now! The Caspian sea is the main route they go to, they cannot cross borders cause there is alot of security and checkpoints, so.....Sea is much better. "

I don't agree, i went to georgia and there are 100's of 1000's of chechens, most of them terrorists. many also live in Turkey, which does not cooperate with russia in the struggle against terrorism, have you never heard of the many terrorist acts committed by Chechens in Turkey? well, untill today turkey has not delivered one single chechen to russia!
And it's the first time i hear from the caspian sea, actually Chechnia has no ports... and i never heard of Iranian support for chechians, on the contrary to many rumours in Russia that they are supported by Turkey and Georgia (Russia even bombed Georgia some years ago for that reason)

"And if IRan wanted to clear themselves from Russian despise they shouldn't have supported the Afghans in the 1980's and they shouldn't have clerics calling a jihad on Russia!! "

any cleric calling for a Jihad in Russia will be removed from office quicker than you can open a can of beer...
Russia is helping Iran to build a nuclear installation, and with its military in general.


why in God's name would Palestinians kill Japanese? Japan is quite sympathic to the palestinian cause.




"On a lighter note, the women leader of the Japanese Red Army spread her legs to some guy from the PFLP and now have a daughter who is around 22 and living in Japan who does heroine and goes to kids schools in Japan trying to teach kids middle eastern culture and how to eat a humus........... How remarkable, of how terror kids grow up to be........ "

right :rolleyes:



"How did the US promote terror in Afganistan? "

well, together with the Afghan intelligence service, the creator of the Taliban and Al-quaida, the CIA recruted Islamic militants in Pakistan to fight against the Soviets. That's a well-known fact.



"Listen, you don't live in Israel..... Like you said about Iran in another thread here, that the US shoud Mind there own business in dealing with Iranian issues, so should the international community deal with Israel! "

yes, that's right, but NOT if israel is violating un-resolutions and occupying lands that doesn't belong to israel, that makes it international.

"Terrorism is an un-expected thing, you have suicide bombers who are the answer to being against the peace process. The only reason that terror was launched against Israel was because of Israels willingness to forsee the PLO as a legitimate partner and a futurue palestinian state as a legitimate deal. What did we get in return...... Terror! From giving them Autnomy and weapons to defend themselves. "

LOL, the only reason palestinians are fighting israel are the occupation and the refugees, you know that well enough.


"after all, he was ASKING FOR IT!!"

he was, yes, but not his family...

retributing against civilians and family is a typical human-right abuse that was committed in wWII and by Israel as well...

[Pushtak18]

"So, you call the Kurdish people and their organisations in Turkey terrorists if they fight against the Turkish military regime, but of course in Iraq they are "freedom-fighters" and "persecuted" because fighting against Arabs.
it shows how biased you are.
actually Ocalan has called for a truce, but the Turks never accepted even the slighest reforms, such as making the Kurdish language legal and stopping the repression, let alone talks with the PKK."

"Oclean has his hands filled with murder. He was the one who set up the rampage in the 80's to kill 76 Ambassadors of Turkey. And you expect turkey to talk with him. He only calls for a truce after 1987 when Iraq took care of his 'people'. Turkey is willing to negotiate, but just like Israel, it will not lose its freedom and majority for some people who have 2 choices, my way or a terror! Its not biased...its the truth!


"I didn't, i don't know and never heard so from any reliable source.

the only thing Chechens and Arabs have in common is their religion, and Chechens fight for independance, not for the Holy Islamic war"

How come you see the Palestinians as so much innocent people? You seem to seperate them from being Arab all of a suddden and you think there gods gift to peace, do you? Palestinians aren't just in WB/GAZa, there all over the place, there in Jordan (AND THATS WHERE THEY SHOULD BE) and there also in Lebanon, Syria and egypt!
They don't fight for independence, they fight for there murderous rampage. They couldn't care less if they have indepenence or not! Infact, they will be ready to kill you russian any day, because you are one of there most popular targets. The Chechens want to make a taliban system in the Former USSR and you support that. You support a nation in the middle of nowhere that is like the taliban who gets support from Iran (and you watch it) and Iraq to build arms that can send biological missiles into Moscow? Than how much russian are u.....
next thing you know its 400kg of Bio-chemic lezerthal rips your skin in half! All i got to do is sit on a bench with some popcorn and laught as you eternallty and mentally rot!

"I don't agree, i went to georgia and there are 100's of 1000's of chechens, most of them terrorists. many also live in Turkey, which does not cooperate with russia in the struggle against terrorism, have you never heard of the many terrorist acts committed by Chechens in Turkey? well, untill today turkey has not delivered one single chechen to russia!
And it's the first time i hear from the caspian sea, actually Chechnia has no ports... and i never heard of Iranian support for chechians, on the contrary to many rumours in Russia that they are supported by Turkey and Georgia (Russia even bombed Georgia some years ago for that reason)"

Thats a nonsense, they don't need a port to get there things to Chechnya, like i said, they bring soldiers there and not equipment (most of the time) so the Caspian sea is a good route. There is no way they can bring people in from Georgia and turkey cause if they bring weapons they will be stopped.
I don't know your garabage talk with meeting and seeing chechens in your so called 'trips' to Georgia, but if they see you, your not going to be a good day in the end, i can tell you that.
Turkey has a tight border and would not let terrorist go threw it.


"any cleric calling for a Jihad in Russia will be removed from office quicker than you can open a can of beer...
Russia is helping Iran to build a nuclear installation, and with its military in general."

Military or politcis do not have anything to do with Iran-Russian relations. There are Clerics who call a jihad on Russia and you know it but instead of saying to me something more reasonable you think that there removed from the office, but first of all..there not in the office, second of all there just religous clerics and thirds of all, the conservatives (that you support) will take care of the matter, they have the power, not the reformist! thanks alot to your ignorance!
As for the Nucelar installation, i just hope that Russia will get some sanctions sooner or later!
They deserve to be bomb for helping build the bomb!


"why in God's name would Palestinians kill Japanese? Japan is quite sympathic to the palestinian cause"

The Red Army and other terrorist factions are sympathetic to them and if they need a 'favor' they'll get it. Not many Japanese are sympathetic, some are, like that freak who burned himself alive! Stooooopid!

"yes, that's right, but NOT if israel is violating un-resolutions and occupying lands that doesn't belong to israel, that makes it international."

Today, there can be 400 cases of Abuse that goes on Iran that is violated in the UN human rights and yet, your telling me to mind my own buisness? This is UN charters that Iran is breaking. To put 8 million Iranians who are drugged up and have no future is a crime indeed.
The land is occupied for a reason, and not for maintaining a grip hold or whatever you like to call it. Israel has gone with the UN Resolution 242 and 338 which calls for Land for Peace on the 'territorial' dispute. They didn't say which territory to give, because Israel occupied about 15% of East bank (Jordan) and in the 1967 Truce Armintice, they gave it back, that was a land for peace!!!
Israel is willing to give back 97% of the WB and all of GAZA for peace and reconcilation.....It is willing to divide Jerusalem up and live in harmony of free trade and economic wealth. Instead, arafat budges on ROR which is certainly not part of the peace process and its only meaning is to get something that is not worked on in the paper.....
If you want UN resolutions to be in peace, forget the Right of Return (ROR)...its about Land, and since you have Land in what would be palestine (Wb-Gaza) you, the palestinians leader will deal with the Refugeess...after all, He is the one who still puts his people in Refugee camps after he gets Autonomy...
Thank you for your autrocratic help you have given!


"LOL, the only reason palestinians are fighting israel are the occupation and the refugees, you know that well enough."

That is not correct! Terror started against Israel and Israeli Civilians in 1994 as a response to the peace process. Ask around, the Hamas and Islamic Jihads, they'll all say the same...... Terror was there to undermine the peace process and make Israelis angry at the PLO, it wasn't successful and peace still made it to a good stage, until 2000......
To tell me that occupation is the matter, that is propostuerous! A Palestinians suicide-bomber is not asking for an end to suicide bombing, but instead he is asking for a reprisal and more occupation in the end. Terror was set up because Israel gave the Palestinians Autonomy to control and govern themselves accordingly!!!!!!!
Refugees will never come back to Israel because UN resolution 338 and 242 which is based on the principals of the peace negotiations states that its LAND FOR PEACE AND NOT REFUGEE COMPENSATION!
Understand that!
You encourage a 17 year old boy to blow himself up, you encourage more occupation and more house to house arrest. If Israel was to maintain a grip hold, those Sub-human race muts would never be willingly to put a strap in there bodys. They would only be at home the whole day having coffe and watching opra!

"he was, yes, but not his family...

retributing against civilians and family is a typical human-right abuse that was committed in wWII and by Israel as well"

Who said anything about his family??? The guy came up to a checkpoint, armed and he was shot...The family barries him.....whats the big point about abuses here....
If someone was to try to kill you, you would just let it go or you would defend yourself!

[elke]

Since when have friendly relations between countries meant that the parties approved of all of each others' policies? France has diplomatic ties with Iran, does that mean they approved of the taking of American hostages in '79? We won't even begin talking about the US-Saudi Arabia issues, yet Prince Abdullah has made it to a Bush barbecue!

[takeo]

palestinians are not God's gift, they are just a people with as much rights and duties as israeli people, on the contrary to fascists who think they are just animals that can be etnic cleansed without problems to serve the interests of Israel...

"AND THATS WHERE THEY SHOULD BE"

no comment...

"They don't fight for independence, they fight for there murderous rampage. They couldn't care less if they have indepenence or not! Infact, they will be ready to kill you russian any day, because you are one of there most popular targets. The Chechens want to make a taliban system in the Former USSR and you support that. You support a nation in the middle of nowhere that is like the taliban who gets support from Iran (and you watch it) and Iraq to build arms that can send biological missiles into Moscow? Than how much russian are u.....
next thing you know its 400kg of Bio-chemic lezerthal rips your skin in half! All i got to do is sit on a bench with some popcorn and laught as you eternallty and mentally rot! "

the Palestinians couldn't care less for Tchechnia or Russia, they have their own problems. The Chechen separatists are a bunch of extremists and most Russian Muslims don't like them either.
Did i ever said that i supported or even liked the Chechens? I would advise you some medical treatment...
The Tchechens don't get support from iraq nor Iran but from your dear Turkey (and Georgia), ally of Israel and the US...


Thats a nonsense, they don't need a port to get there things to Chechnya, like i said, they bring soldiers there and not equipment (most of the time) so the Caspian sea is a good route. There is no way they can bring people in from Georgia and turkey cause if they bring weapons they will be stopped.
I don't know your garabage talk with meeting and seeing chechens in your so called 'trips' to Georgia, but if they see you, your not going to be a good day in the end, i can tell you that.
Turkey has a tight border and would not let terrorist go threw it. "


actually the border between tchechnia and Georgia is the higest mountains of Europe and no way anyone can stop them passing trough. besides armed tchechen rebels live in the border area, in Georgia. Turkey has a tight border but the Turkish regime is sympathic to the Chechens (as well as the Georgians) that's why they are sitting ducks.




I never heard of anyone calling for a Jihad against Russia in Iran, Iranians have sympathy for Russia and have common ennemies. You shouldn't ignore that Iran is still a totalitarian state Elke, and anything said in public should be conform to the official foreign policy (or one of the official state-views) . Both the conservatives AND the reformists want good ties with Russia. Former conservative president rafstanjani started the good relations with russia in the first place.

"As for the Nucelar installation, i just hope that Russia will get some sanctions sooner or later!
They deserve to be bomb for helping build the bomb! "

i hope Israel will get some sanctions too sooner or later for having nuclear facilities.
just try to bomb Russia and enjoy the last seconds of your life and of Israel in general...

Having drug addicts is not a typical Iranian problem and is a matter of internal affairs...

"The land is occupied for a reason, and not for maintaining a grip hold or whatever you like to call it. Israel has gone with the UN Resolution 242 and 338 which calls for Land for Peace on the 'territorial' dispute. They didn't say which territory to give, because Israel occupied about 15% of East bank (Jordan) and in the 1967 Truce Armintice, they gave it back, that was a land for peace!!! "

sure, israel gave back the East bank to Jordan in 1967 :rolleyes:
and the un-resolutions where calling upon israel to withdraw only from the eastbank
sometimes i wonder if YOU aren't a drug addict and need UN-intervention to save you...



the right of return is a un-resolution too...




"That is not correct! Terror started against Israel and Israeli Civilians in 1994 as a response to the peace process. Ask around, the Hamas and Islamic Jihads, they'll all say the same...... Terror was there to undermine the peace process and make Israelis angry at the PLO, it wasn't successful and peace still made it to a good stage, until 2000...... "

that's right, but now you are talking about extremists, in israel too there were extremists who even killed your president...


"To tell me that occupation is the matter, that is propostuerous! A Palestinians suicide-bomber is not asking for an end to suicide bombing, but instead he is asking for a reprisal and more occupation in the end. Terror was set up because Israel gave the Palestinians Autonomy to control and govern themselves accordingly!!!!!!! "

BS, terror resumed in 2000 because israel did not deliver independance in 1999 as promised in oslo and did not stop building new settlements and was not ready to discuss the right of return or any other palestinian peace-proposal.


"Refugees will never come back to Israel because UN resolution 338 and 242 which is based on the principals of the peace negotiations states that its LAND FOR PEACE AND NOT REFUGEE COMPENSATION!
Understand that! "

the resolution 242 said absolutely nothing about the refugees, which means that the resolution about the refugees is still legally binding, and by the way it has been reconfirmed.


"You encourage a 17 year old boy to blow himself up, you encourage more occupation and more house to house arrest. If Israel was to maintain a grip hold, those Sub-human race muts would never be willingly to put a strap in there bodys. They would only be at home the whole day having coffe and watching opra! "

i don't encourage nobody, sharon is encouraging them by destroying palestinian houses and refusing to talk about lasting peace.



"Who said anything about his family??? The guy came up to a checkpoint, armed and he was shot...The family barries him.....whats the big point about abuses here....
If someone was to try to kill you, you would just let it go or you would defend yourself!"

actually it is a well-known israeli policy to destroy the house of the family of the suicide-bomber...

[takeo]

very interesting article from The Guardian and La Republica!

"La
Republica 10/9/99)

In Afghanistan Bin Laden had fulfilled the role of ally for the United
States against the Russians. Meanwhile however he became a nuisance and was
chased ... to Chechnya.

"His position", La Republica writes, "has become more and more
difficult in Afghanistan. The US has decided to use every means, including
diplomatic, to exert pressure on Pakistan and force the Taliban to
extradite him.

"The Afghan soil became too hot for him and he would have chosen Chechnya
as a safer haven. The Russians have no say in the matter and the US won't
bombard him as it is Russian territory."

The Chechen war lords declared as their objective "to establish a Muslim
state and to chase the Russians from the Caucasus".

This objective perfectly fits the scheme of the American and European oil
multinationals. They want to control the petroleum fields and oil pipe-
lines in the Caucasus and eliminate the pipe-lines on Russian territory.

All oil would then have to be transported through Georgia or Turkey, two
states controlled by the US."

"In response to the offensive to surround and break up Russia from the
south, new alliances are being drawn. The "Three" (China, Russia, and
India) are lining up against the "Seven" (the G-7). China realises that if
the West succeeds in carving up Russia, China becomes the next target.

Among the Uigur population of China agitation is rising in favour of an
"own, independent, and Islamic" state of Turkestan in Central Asia.

India, traditionally an ally of Russia, fights a conflict with Pakistan
concerning Kashmir."

"The "Seven", comprising the NATO countries, are seeking support points for
their offensive in the region. Turkey counts Georgia and Azerbaijan among
its sphere of influence while Afghanistan and Pakistan are a base for the
Muslim war lords, who are to "chase the Russians from the Caucasus". And
obviously, Chechnya."

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve1/980chech.html



The new Yorker, Michael Specter :

"Georgia today is a more tranquil place than it was on that
summer day when the bomb went off--in no small part because the
country is, in a sense, a highly dependent duchy of the United
States. American leaders, for both practical and sentimental reasons,
revere Shevardnadze. Last year, the United States provided nearly
a hundred and fifty million dollars in aid, almost a third of
the Georgian budget. Over the past decade, only Israel has regularly
received significantly more money per person from Washington.
Despite Georgia's efforts to establish a democracy, in other respects
its progress has been slight: tax revenues are anemic; and last
year Transparency International, an independent monitor of international
ethics, placed Georgia eighty-fifth out of a hundred on its list
of the world's most corrupt countries. Nearly everything that
should be earned in a free society through merit is blatantly
for sale, from college diplomas and drivers' licenses to the right
to vote."

"Moscow has helped start two of Georgia's
civil wars in the past ten years, and the Russian military maintains
four bases on Georgian territory.Georgia managed to remain aloof during the previous Chechen
conflict, but it has been harder this time. Last year, when the
war started again, the Russians tried to station troops in the
Pankisi Gorge, a narrow valley that leads to the mountain pass
where Georgia ends and Chechnya begins. The Russians were quickly
rebuffed by Shevardnadze, who understands that neutrality is his
only hope of staving off a full-blown war throughout the Caucasus.
But the Russian generals have kept up the pressure, and at least
twice in the past year bombs have fallen on Georgian villages."
""It is literally the case that no high-level meeting takes
place between American and Russian officials without the word
`Georgia' being mentioned,'' Strobe Talbott, the Deputy Secretary
of State, told me recently. "When we talk to Russia, we talk
about red lines. Those are lines it must not cross. Well, the
brightest of the red lines that exist is the border between Chechnya
and Georgia." "The gorge has long been a transit point for drugs and arms
on their way from Afghanistan to Chechnya and beyond. Many of
the people who live there immigrated from Chechnya decades ago
and, egged on by local warlords, they resent the humanitarian
aid that is available for the new Chechen refugees."
"I drove up from Tbilisi one morning, arriving after a shoot-out
in which eight gang members had died. People were on edge. Although
the refugee camps are supposed to admit only women, children,
and old men, the first thing that caught my eye along the dusty
trails--just thirty miles from the battlefields-- was two groups
of young men cruising around in Mercedes S600s, with smoked mirrors
and Chechen flags pasted on the back. The scene in the gorge was
much like what you saw in Grozny, in 1994, on the eve of the first
war: markets full of bright-red plastic buckets, wheels of cheese
the size of tires, rusted tools, ancient spare parts--all spread
out on tables as if they were Swiss watches. There were pictures
of the late Chechen leader Dzhokhar Dudayev and enough wolf
insignias--the sign of the Chechen fighter--to outfit an army.
The gorge was like Grozny in another way, too: you could sense
the violence.

I had last been in those mountains in 1996, right after the
Russians had been chased out. I had driven from Grozny through
the peaks to Itum-Kale, fifteen miles from the Georgian border.
There I watched Chechen elders prostrate themselves toward Mecca,
thanking God for helping to destroy their enemy. It was a late-fall
day, and after the prayers several sheep were boiled in huge cauldrons
on the open fields. "

"By the fall of 1999, the Russian generals had adopted the tactics
of General Baratinsky, who in defeating the Chechen leader Imam
Shamil, in 1859, instructed his soldiers to level every hamlet,
village, and lean-to they could find. Russian paratroopers have
now dug in throughout the mountains. On the Georgian side of the
border, particularly at night, one can listen as SU25s attempt
to incinerate the last few thousand rebels. "

"Now, as the gorge fills with the detritus of war, the pressure
on Georgia has grown intense. Moscow's military leaders have accused
Tbilisi of, among other things, providing training camps for rebels,
hiding members of Osama bin Laden's terrorist group, transporting
Taliban fighters to help the Chechens, and supplying the Chechens
with guns. The charges have been refuted by every official observer
who has visited, yet Moscow persists."
"Last April, Shevardnadze was elected to a second term with
more than eighty per cent of the vote. There was no real opposition,
and surely he would have won a fair and open election. But the
contest was neither fair nor open. Western and local observers
complained loudly about tampering; and they found that many polling
places in contested regions were closed illegally and that at
least some votes were faked by supporters of the President. "

http://www.michaelspecter.com/ny/2000/2000_12_18_tbilisi.html

[Adversary2Arabs]

A good alliance would be of the countries surrounding Arab countries. This would be good because in Israel and India (just as of now) there are problems with the Arabs and their neighbors. They are greedy for more land, when Israel has less than .5 of 1% of the entire Middle East. In India, the Arabs are trying to take more land than they actually have. Its just a matter of time before it happens with other countries in the Middle East. Arab greed for land and power is infinite, in my opinion.

[Pushtak18]

Its not that A2A....


FIrst of all, Pakistanis aren't Arabs, there muslims, and there might be a few arabs but not all of the 130 Million crowded in Pakistan.

Secondly, yes, both India and Israel face the same problem with land that is on status quo (kashmir vs West Bank/Gaza).

Israel and India made full diplomatic relations in 1992 and have begun a series of practices in the Indian ocean for planes and other equipment.

Just so you know...Israel is the 2nd biggest importer for Arms and weapons to India and sooner or later would be first, after Russia will lose its spot.

I wish there would be an Isro-India empire that will be from INdia all the way to Israel and we will share the land happily and abundantly! :)

[gregg]

Originally posted by redcake
I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?

there where also signes of some Americans fighting along the Taliban, whats your point

[sikanderhind]

Hi!

I am from India and I want to thank Israel and its govermnet for their support to us.

We are victims of muslim terrorism for last 20 years.

We know how it feels when my father does not return home after work cause some mullah jihadi walked in with a bomb into a resturant where he was eating lunch.

Terrorists now aim at women and children, to hit us where it hurs the most.

But, we will never be defeated.

Jews and Hindus are the oldest running CIVILIZATIONS on earth.

We are a billion people and a regional military power.

And most important, we have a LOT to learn from Israel, a nation of astsute, BRAVE, courageous, people who face this threat every day.

India has 175 million muslims, so our official government policy is to be with Arabs. (the huge vote bank)

But let me tell you what each indian on the street thinks for you, Israelis. We think very high of you and will support you always, with any help.

I want to remind you people one thing, India as a nation HAS NEVER been ever anti jews in its history. We never did what Europeans, Arabs, etc did.

Do you know, the Indian Army's western Command is headed by an Indian jew? He is a amamzing leader for the forces.

Imagine the muslim Pakistani army getting defeated by this Commander? They will not sleep in peace for centuries.

I wish to start a new chapter in Indo-Israeli allaince.

Already our goverments are into it.
I offer my friendship to everyone in this forum

Have a great Day !!!!

[Mediocrates]

Shalom - is that J.F.R. Jacob??

[bhagat.singh]

Originally posted by takeo
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
I am new to this Forum and this is my first post.
I agree that India has always voted against Israel in the past but that was govt. of India and it's external policies and not it's people's opinion or views. Indian people and Hindus have always supported Israel from their hearts because we know what terrorism is, we are suffering from the same Islamic terrorism.
What ever India did in the past was totally politically motivated and did not reflect people's views, that was during the cold war, things have changed now. India and Israel has so many things in common and can become true friends in the long run.
Let's work together to get rid of this Islamic evil called " Terrorism"

[ibrodsky]

bhagat.singh,

Welcome to IsraelForum. I've been following the growing military alliance between Israel and India. And your kind words of support are very much appreciated.

I understand why the U.S. formed an alliance with Pakistan; it made going after Al Qaeda easier in the short run. But clearly, long-run the U.S. should be more closely linked to India.

I have read with horror about Islamist (i.e., militant Islam) attacks in India. Both Israel and India have the right to self-defense. We cannot let our aversion to causing civilian casualties stop us from fighting terrorists. They are purposely killing as many civilians as they can.

The blame for the civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza rests squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and Shehada. If they didn't blow up Israelis riding buses, shopping in markets, and eating in restaurants, then Israel would not need to go after their evil leaders.

I'm sure much the same is true for India. I know when the question of Pakistan's role in terrorism comes up, they deny, deny, deny. The same with the PA. Even if they are not the plotters, we know they lend support and look away when needed. Basically, they say they oppose terrorists, but purposely do nothing, and then issue insincere condemnations -- no doubt feeling inside that these attacks help their side. So, they get to perpetrate terrorism and escape the responsibility.

Plus, India faces the threat of nuclear attack and a Pakistani gov't that could fall directly into the hands of terrorists someday. At least one Muslim participant here has talked with enthusiasm about the prospect of Islamists nuking Israel, so we know how India and her supporters feel.

It would be nice now if India and Israel could support each other in the UN and in other ways...

[ibrodsky]

sikanderhind,

Thank you also for your kind words of support, and welcome to IsraelForum!

[Mr. Pumps]

Yaaaaaahhhoooooooooo! maybe next a Han Chinese will say Pakistan is dead weight and Muslims in China are a problem and they secretly admire Israel and India. Than a Russian next.

Lets get the Ball rolling shall we.

All "Kafirs" as one agianst the Muslims.

[elke]

Not against the Muslims, against the Islamists :cool: !

[Leon Uris]

Actually, it was our current Deputy Prime Minister, LK Advani, who along with the PM Vajpayee, were instrumental in jettisoning the muslim-appeasing habit of voting against Israel in the UN and really opened relations between the two countries.

LKA also, if I recall correctly, had a close friend, who is jewish, back in his youth. On his last trip to Israel, he met his friend. The admiration that the currently ruling party feels for Israel is genuine.

However, I am really apprehensive about the nature of Indo-Israelis ties in the future if the Congress Party comes to power. For one, it is the muslim-appeasing Congress Party that had for almost 50 years shunned Israel. Also, it is lead by Sonia Gandhi (Ex- and Late-PM Rajiv Gandhi's wife) who is Italian and Catholic. Considering the long history of virulent anti-semitism espoused by Catholics and the Vatican for 2,000 years, it does not take a rocket scientist to foretell that Indo-Israeli ties will take a nose-dive. So I fervently pray for the BJP (Bhartiya Janata Party or the Indian (Bharat is the ancient name of India) Peoples Party) to remain in power for the near forseeable future.

[Leon Uris]

I think accessing the post below may require registration which is free

Israel Cancels Einstein Exhibit In China Over 'Insult' to Jews
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18528-2002Jul29.html


=======================================

I regularly visit an Indian defence site called Bharat-rakshak.com.

One of the things they have on that site is a NEWS FOLDER thread where anyone is free to post an article much like the one above. The idea is to bring that article to everyone's notice without really inviting discussion.

The Webmasters on this forum may want to think about it. Also, you are most welcome to participate in Bharat-Rakshak.com

[The Indian]

I'd like to offer a word of thanks to the IAI.

With their help the IAF can keep an eye on the Islamic terrorists entering India.

Thanks again Israel.

[IndiaIsrael]

Kwel Forum :)


India -- Israel's New Best Friend

The strategic alliance could be compared only to Israel's strong ties with Turkey -- in that both India and Turkey lie outside the orbit of Israel's traditional Western friends.

Both Israel and India have a common nemesis in Islamic terrorism.
Like Israel has in its dealings with the Palestinian Authority, India recently invoked President Bush's strong stand against sponsors of terrorism when it threatened Pakistan over a terror attack at the Indian Parliament allegedly backed by Pakistani militant groups.

India's prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, sounded as if he had adopted Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's comments on Arafat when he said that he had "had enough of symbolic gestures from Pakistan" and expected "a halt to terrorist acts against India."

Peres gave public support for India's war against terrorism. "I don't see" the Indian government as being "trigger-happy," Peres told reporters in New Delhi after Indian leaders. "The greatest victory is the prevention of a war, and I feel that this is also the position of India."

Peres said that there is much more to the relations between Israel and India than the need to fight Islamic terrorism.

The strategic alliance between the two countries -- both considered members of the exclusive international nuclear club -- is based predominantly on strong military ties. India learned from Israel ways to defend its long border with Pakistan, as well as how to develop highly sophisticated weapons.

The two countries may also cooperate in developing an integrated anti-ballistic missile system , designed to destroy incoming ballistic missiles. India and Israel also are looking into the possibility of integrating the Greenpine Radar, which is part of Israel's Arrow missile, with India's Rajendra Army Radar system.

A contract already has been signed between Israel Aircraft Industries and the Indian Defense Ministry for $2 billion , according to which Israel will provide India with advanced military equipment and other advanced products. According to those reports, Israel will sell India ground-to-ground Barak missiles for $280 million, pilotless planes for $300 million and a radar system for $250 million.

[Pushtak18]

And thats why i love India so much!

I declare them our new good friend of Asia :)

We will make the India-Israel empires :D


I've been to India and i also took part in Pro-Hindu/Indian protests against Islamic Terorrism and Pakistan :)

They welcomed me with open arms!

[The Indian]

Pushtak18,

No need for empires. The people of India & Israel simply wish to live in peace & prosperity in their own lands. Now the Islamists wish to take that away from them as well. Both of our peoples have suffered from mass genocide and the blood-letting continues today.

What I see happening in Israel today is that the Arabs are asking for parts of Israel as a land for peace deal. Thats what the Islamists asked from India in the 1940s. Now today we have a terrorist slum known as the Terrorist State of Pakistan (TSP). No Israeli should give in to US demands for a Palestinian state or it will create a terrorist slum next to Israel that will create problems forever!

TSP is the root of all major acts of terrorism today as we know it. If person wants to get trained in terrorism, just take a trip to TSP to learn how. The scum who blew up a Synagogue in Tunisa in the last year with a truck filled with propane was trained in TSP.

[richcrassus]

WHy do Egyptians call themselves arabs and people call them arabs when technically they are in Africa?
Isnt Egypt actually in the continent of Africa?
Arnt arabs only technically people who live in Arabia? Saudi Arabia?
Or countries close to arabia like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan , Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Yemen etc...

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by richcrassus
WHy do Egyptians call themselves arabs and people call them arabs when technically they are in Africa?
Isnt Egypt actually in the continent of Africa?
Arnt arabs only technically people who live in Arabia? Saudi Arabia?
Or countries close to arabia like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan , Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Yemen etc...

Because when the Arab conquerers came thru they continued all the way over North Africa and then into Spain, where they slowly bled into France and then were pushed back and expelled from Spain(with the Jews) from the Inquisition. Most Arabs from Spain moved to Morrocco, which is the most western country occupied by Arabs.

[Haifa]

Actually, most of Arab countries are not Arab ethnically, but they speak Arabic.

Palestinians, jordanians, syrians, and lebanese come from ancient civilizations in the area: assyrians, caldians, cannanites...etc. but they were integrated into the Arab world and speak Arabic. Iraqis are assyrians, and egyptians are egyptians.

The only arabs are those in Yemen, kuwait, saudi arabia, bahrain, and qatar. The rest are "other people" who speak Arabic and no longer use the ancient languages.

So egyptians are not arab: they are egyptians who speak arabic. Same with sudanese.

This is why there is a variation, even more than jews, ranging from russian-like people in north of lebanon, to black people in Sudan.

Until Israel was established, Jews were only Jewish by their religion. This is why they were called "Arab Jews" a term that no longer exists except among the few thousand jews living in yemen.

This is supported by the fact that all jewish converts to islam lose their jewish identity. There is probably some of them in Arab countries now, but they do not even know that they have jewish ancestory.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Palestinains aren't Arab then? Hmm...

[Haifa]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Palestinains aren't Arab then? Hmm...

well the thing is: because of all kinds of inter-marriage, it is hard to tell who is who.

It's not like Judaism where you marry a jew to keep the children jewish.

Who knows.. some palestinians may turn to be french crusaders who converted :)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Haifa
well the thing is: because of all kinds of inter-marriage, it is hard to tell who is who.


Well make up your mind which is it, your holy right or some vague state of being-ness.
We hear about the holy sacred right to name thyself Palestinian but I guess it's really whatever you want it to be, like a driver's licence or something.

It's not like Judaism where you marry a jew to keep the children jewish.

I used to think you were a prop. Now I know you're just incredibly clueless; almost aggresively clueless.

[elke]

Originally posted by Haifa
Actually, most of Arab countries are not Arab ethnically, but they speak Arabic.

Palestinians, jordanians, syrians, and lebanese come from ancient civilizations in the area: assyrians, caldians, cannanites...etc. but they were integrated into the Arab world and speak Arabic. Iraqis are assyrians, and egyptians are egyptians.

The only arabs are those in Yemen, kuwait, saudi arabia, bahrain, and qatar. The rest are "other people" who speak Arabic and no longer use the ancient languages.

So egyptians are not arab: they are egyptians who speak arabic. Same with sudanese.

This is why there is a variation, even more than jews, ranging from russian-like people in north of lebanon, to black people in Sudan.

This is actually incorrect, Haifa. Semitic peoples, of which only the lonely Jews and Arabs are left, vary - and always have varied - significantly in their personal appearance. In addition, of course these other peoples did not just simply "disappear", but rather blended in with the Arabs (and others before them). Canaanites as a people were long, long gone by the time the Arabs came to this area.

Until Israel was established, Jews were only Jewish by their religion. This is why they were called "Arab Jews" a term that no longer exists except among the few thousand jews living in yemen.

This is also not true: genetic studies of the Eastern European Jewish populations have established that the Jews were Jewish ethnically as well, with quite a bit in common genetically with the ME Arabs and Palestinians, incidentally. :p

[Haifa]

-ok thanks for correcting me in the first point. I've always though Assyrians still exist now, and they are called Iraqis (no?)

-What I meant in the second point was that they were not treated as a race in the middle east and this is why they were called "arab jews."

[elke]

Originally posted by Haifa
-ok thanks for correcting me in the first point. I've always though Assyrians still exist now, and they are called Iraqis (no?)

-What I meant in the second point was that they were not treated as a race in the middle east and this is why they were called "arab jews."

Well, it would have been rather difficult for the Arabs to discriminate against the Jews once they converted, don't you think? Considering that no one could tell the difference... Shoot, even now many people can't tell one from the other! :)

You know, my mother told me about people she called Assyrian in Russian Georgia, where she grew up. I don't know what they actually are though...that place is such a mixture of ethnicities!

[Haifa]

hmm the reason I said this is that I was in a voice chat program in a channel labelled Iraq, and there were people there speaking some language I did not recognize (and I recognize many languages, without necessarily understanding them :)).. and when I asked they said they were Assyrian. And they said they all were christian.

I have never seen these people in my life, and never knew there were christians in Iraq either!! (10 percent)

[Mediocrates]

Well, it would have been rather difficult for the Arabs to discriminate against the Jews once they converted, don't you think? Considering that no one could tell the difference...

The Spaniards found it not only possible but politically useful to continually discriminate against their own anouim from 1492 onward (some people call them conversos or marranos but these are very deragatory terms). Once a Jew always a Jew. Anouim were even chased out of Spain and Portugal after they 'converted'. Many wound up in South and Central America.

So any Jews who 'converted', at the point of a sword no doubt, to Islam would always be "those Jews who think they're not infidels" to their neighbors. You don't have to be able to tell them apart all you need is a community's memory.

[Leon Uris]

I am extremely please to see that our PM chose (or was invited) to address Jewish organizations in the US. The Indian congress party, with known anti-semitic stalwarts such as Gandhi and Nehru in the past and an Italian Catholic PM-wannabe in wing, Sonia Gandhi, would never have even considered addressing Jewish organizations.


http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sept13/up5.htm

Terror must be dealt with effectively: Vajpayee

New York, Sep 13 (PTI)

Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee has said the war against terrorism will not succeed unless and until the safe havens of terrorism are ended and the infrastructure is dismantled.

At a meeting with leading Jewish organisations here yesterday , Vajpayee told them that he stressed this point during talks with President Bush earlier in the day, External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Nirupama Rao told reporters here. Vajpayee said he mentioned to the American President that terrorism cannot be allowed to hijack the bilateral agenda of cooperation and better relations that India seeks with the United States.

Some of the Jewish organisations asked whether India is troubled in any way by the equivalence sought to be established in some quarters in the US in judging India and Pakistan.

[Mediocrates]

India and Israel trade several billions in military purchases between them. They also cross train each others counterterrorism squads. There are quite a few software and services companies that do joint development and support as well.

The one time military chief of the Indian western army that faces Pakistan today, is a Jew.

[Mediocrates]

General Jacobs? I did not know that. I guess we should all fall on our swords, thank you.

[danholo]

You don't convert to Buddhism. You can practice Buddhism and still be Jewish. (once you scrap the buddha pictures of course.)

[Mediocrates]

Well maybe it wasn't Jacobs - there are lots of senior army officers in India from Jewish families? Eh either way it's not that big a deal with me. As long as Israel and India work together that's a good enough relationship for now.

[TheRock]

and about jacobs, he doesnt belive in god, he follows buddhist ideologies, but he is jewish by birth, jews are not even a signifacant popultion in india prob less than 1000

[Mediocrates]

FWIW

http://www.wjc.org.il/wjcbook/india/index.htm

[Simon]

and about jacobs, he doesnt belive in god, he follows buddhist ideologies,


You have any links to support that. I can easily claim that Arafat is a buddhist :D.

Again, there is nothing wrong with Jacobs doing anything he wants of his own free will; whether he wants to renounce judaism or adopt buddhism or remain a Jew while being attracted to (and study) buddhist philosophies.

[WarAgainstJihad]

thats a good idea but i doubt this will happen, there are about 200,000 muslims in india, who are about as part of indian society as anything, and china's biggest monothestic religion is islam, good though but highly unlikely.

[The Indian]

WarAgainstJihad,

Get your facts straight! There are 150+ million muslims in India. Not 200,000. India is the 2nd largest muslim country in the world after No.1 Indonesia. The Terrorist State of Pakistan (TSP) has 140 million muslims.

Within India, the vast majority of the muslims are loyal to India. A small minority probably sides with TSP.

I see no barrier to an Indo-Israeli alliance. Two old civilizations that both value democracy.

[Mr. Pumps]

The likely hood of another confrontation between the West and Islam is very likely.

The tension is building or violence has already started in India, and European nations.

They have no case agianst Slobo, he represents the kind of anamosity growning in the ranks of the populations of Europe over Immigrants who preach destruction and hatred of their new homeland.

Serbia-Kosovo, Israel-Palestinians, India-Kashmir that is what you get when a non-muslim offers co-habitation and co-existence to a Muslim, they make it a fixation of kicking you out and squat on your land.

[GauravS]

Gen. Jacob is now retired, he is the Governor of the Union Territory of Chandigarh, I met him once when he came to our University, I have not seen such a humble man in my life and the respect he has of his army collegues is legendary.

We in India are glad to have a Israel as friend.

[The Indian]

Indian-Israeli Relations (http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/Publications.asp?did=512)

[Vermuz]

hahah !!

Get your facts right here .

india has more moslems than pakistan . Pakistan was a terrorist state till 2001 .
israelli mossad was invited by president musharraf and told that pakistan has no problem with israel ; israelli foreign minister was so happy with secret signals from pak government that he said it will be a great wish come true if we have good relations with both pakistan and india.

Israel sent a message through turkey it is concerned about iran ; iran has a long history of bad relations with pakistan . iran wants to seize baluchistan which it claims is it`s . And also the oil fields
which are not let to ppl to use em . Pakistani pres zia ul haq had gone to the extent of saying once "we might have to invade iran someday".

Mr musharraf had this to say to israel due to "bush romance"
we willl take care of iran , usa is establising the biggest base in region in pakistan for which initially 54000 acre was given to us army at 99 years of lease. There usa has permanently deployed bombers and fighter aircraft and spy planes to take care of cis states where america has oil interests all pipelines will run through pakistan and karachi.

Also about pakistan and china . Pakistan and china have "no war pact" signed by mrs benazir bhutto. Pakistan also covers china from india . According to us defence advisor sandy berger pakistan alone can take care of india in any military attack "it will be a no win situation!".

Pakistan also wants to arm turkey for this pakistan used china as channel to convey to israel that turkey is israel`s ally and pakistan wants to help it because turkey is a brotherly nation with pakistan . Us govvernment had some problems but they are to be removed too . Pakistan wants turkey to have tactical weapons , tanks , missiles and modern radars one of which was recently tested along with china to chck trajectory of incoming missiles and launch anti missiles , System`s name is "ads-37" .
During recent exercises in pakistan turkish were really impressed when pakistan used a stealth finder radar in exercises same one that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia ; ukraine sold the tech to them so many deals are in pipeline for turkey but for now usa has urged pakistan not to openly arm turkey untill iraq issue is resolved ; pakistani president had this to say to greece "any country has bad designs against our friend turkey ; that we will not sit and watch:)" However a direct military intervention of pakistan is not so possible due to us pressure because if it does happen greece is history . Greece has sent 6 envoys in this year alone to pakistan to explain its point .

Pakistan takes care of military posture of india while china works on its plans to be an economic giant ; Israelli top official said on question how important is china to israel ; he remarked "everyone knows china will be a superpower ; one day we will all wake up to find that ; we need to have excellent relations with them"Chinese , americans armed pakistan and will arm pakistan. The way india behaves is funny because they cannot attack pakistan not the capability also shown in 9 month long military deployment by india which was ofcourse matched by pakistan that frightened india .

Its very good to hear in usa that india and israel go along well noone has problem with that .

But please keep all things in mind when discussing conservative talk leads to nothing except waste of bandwidth.

CHeers

Vermuz

[Simon]

Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar. Can take care of India alone. Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed.

[Vermuz]

Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.
========

I didn`t know of the fact that anything that doesn`t suite u is :hashih induced mr simon anyways i don`t freakin care about that .

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar.
=====================================
Pakistan and china tested this radar "J-231" in 1998 . IT is an advanced radar based on the russian radar that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia if you don`t know about military technology iam sorry for that . A later version of that was tested with an Ft-2000 awacs killer . Pakistan makes em under license from china .


Can take care of India alone.
=======================================
Yes please care to open minority report 1998 from us state department available in libraries too ; clear writing if you know english :) that pakistan has enough capability to take care of india in any conflict . Both pakistan and india have joint enough nukes to flatten that region so it will be no win situation both will lose .China will be left alone as regional superpower. However a new initiative by usa has started usa has decided it wants india
and pakistan united on nato aegis to take on chinese threat it will be kinda difficult to bring em together but americans are known for their tactics iam proud of that !! hahaa

Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.
============================
Yes ; turkish have been very interested in nuclear facilities made by pakistan for turkey but deal is in freeze as americans have asked for calm till mr saddam is dealt with . Pakistan according to russia has enough nukes to torch its enemies . United states has been very helpful which i don`t understand since iam in usa . Usa has openly helped pakistan develop more weapons and wants it to continue development kinda double policy as it has been very good to india too but it has has been arming pakistan and is arming pakistan .

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed

Ummm yeah china and pakistan have same strategy for india . Pakistan has militarily pressed india and will continue as china wants it . But there is difference between whore and ally.

The definition of whore sets on britain as whore of usa or middle eastern countries like uae and qatar . An ally is that they are good but not on every issue . Pakistan and china had some conflicting policies on arm sales when pakistan bought french and german technology instead of chinese tech but chinese said we understand pakistan`s need . On the other hand united arab emirates left russian Su-37 to take a 1970 us plane F-16 su-37 trials in china showed it even took out american F-15 in tests so thats a whore .

Thanks for the reply by the way .

May God take care of israel and God bless america.
I will expect some mannerism in next post so that words like hashish are avoided
thanks!
Cheers
vermuz

[Vermuz]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.
========

I didn`t know of the fact that anything that doesn`t suite u is :hashih induced mr simon anyways i don`t freakin care about that .

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar.
=====================================
Pakistan and china tested this radar "J-231" in 1998 . IT is an advanced radar based on the russian radar that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia if you don`t know about military technology iam sorry for that . A later version of that was tested with an Ft-2000 awacs killer . Pakistan makes em under license from china .


Can take care of India alone.
=======================================
Yes please care to open minority report 1998 from us state department available in libraries too ; clear writing if you know english :) that pakistan has enough capability to take care of india in any conflict . Both pakistan and india have joint enough nukes to flatten that region so it will be no win situation both will lose .China will be left alone as regional superpower. However a new initiative by usa has started usa has decided it wants india
and pakistan united on nato aegis to take on chinese threat it will be kinda difficult to bring em together but americans are known for their tactics iam proud of that !! hahaa

Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.
============================
Yes ; turkish have been very interested in nuclear facilities made by pakistan for turkey but deal is in freeze as americans have asked for calm till mr saddam is dealt with . Pakistan according to russia has enough nukes to torch its enemies . United states has been very helpful which i don`t understand since iam in usa . Usa has openly helped pakistan develop more weapons and wants it to continue development kinda double policy as it has been very good to india too but it has has been arming pakistan and is arming pakistan .

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed

Ummm yeah china and pakistan have same strategy for india . Pakistan has militarily pressed india and will continue as china wants it . But there is difference between whore and ally.

The definition of whore sets on britain as whore of usa or middle eastern countries like uae and qatar . An ally is that they are good but not on every issue . Pakistan and china had some conflicting policies on arm sales when pakistan bought french and german technology instead of chinese tech but chinese said we understand pakistan`s need . On the other hand united arab emirates left russian Su-37 to take a 1970 us plane F-16 su-37 trials in china showed it even took out american F-15 in tests so thats a whore .

Thanks for the reply by the way .

May God take care of israel and God bless america.
I will expect some mannerism in next post so that words like hashish are avoided
thanks!
Cheers
vermuz

The thingi about koran is that its a text which has two thingis "universal semantics" and some "old semantics".

universal semantics is something said in broad sense but some illiterate fanatic takes it as something which suites him and then there is the old semantics the thingi that book has somethings that were related to that era when it came about 1400 years ago those thingis cannot be practised now . i have read about islam there was a caliph "omar" who was respected that moslems have said that if there could be a prophet after "muhammad" then it would have been omar . If you read about him he has in many instances told moslems to do thingis told in koran but didn`t go along with the era so he often said "Take along the universal semantics" like the pillars of islam prayers , fasting ecetera but then decide whats better for that era . In those times islam was new and moslems were few they were being hunted so it was necessay to defend and fight but then islam has also gone for deals with jews for co-existence in peace . Moslems and jews also fought together against atheist .

So if you wanna kill ppl you don`t need much help in taking one meaning from a univeral text or old text . So people like ossama who quote these verses are using it for em not islam ; islam is a religion of co-existence not hegemony .

If you check out american darpa where scientists come and research for american military and technology 18% are americans most of em are pakistanis and indians . They live their with americans as americans and also practise islam to some extent . Come to u c berkeley ; caltech , MIT U SEE it everywhere ! Don`t mix up islam with that :) Islam is much bigger sense than that .

Every religion that God has sent jewish , christianity and Islam all are based on peace and co-existence . If someone takes out one meaning and starts killing the religions are not bad ; its the narrow mind of that person who has done it fullfill his or her desires. Think about it sometime !

[Mediocrates]

JT-2000 is HARM system, appears to be airborne, sidelooking.

J-231 is a anti/SAM radar, the specs I found didn't appear to be that groundbreaking. It has enhanced groundclutter stripping so one would assume it's downlooking.

ADS-37 may be vaporware or in test mode.

[Vermuz]

EXCELLENT mr mediocrate good to see fellow american here .

NOW

ads-37 - pakistan`s missile defence system under development
J-221 - joined service in 2000.

Lets talk about 2001/2002

NEW TECHNOLOGY


Report on Chinese Radar Worries US
Taipei Times

China is deploying an anti-aircraft defense system that uses technology so advanced it can track even Stealth-type warplanes.

US intelligence analysts expressed worries that the new early-warning defence system could defeat current US Air Force tactics against enemy air defenses, Newsweek reported.

"Everyone is wondering about the cost of defending Taiwan," an intelligence source told the magazine.

Current anti-aircraft defenses use radar to track incoming aircraft, but outgoing signals can be found and jammed or destroyed.

The "passive" technology that US officials believe the Chinese have detects aircraft by monitoring disruptions in commercial radio and TV signals, and are essentially undetectable, Newsweek reported.

The technology, which could detect US stealth aircraft, including the F-117 bomber and even the futuristic F-22 fighter, has so alarmed the defence community that top military and industry experts have been called to a secret meeting in December to discuss the strategic implications.

Current anti-aircraft defenses are cued by radars that detect and track incoming aircraft. But the radars are vulnerable because their signals can be jammed or missiles can be launched to ride back down the radar beams and destroy the transmitters.

Newsweek said China's new Passive Coherent Location (PCL) system tracked the signals of civilian radio and television broadcasts and picked up aircraft by analyzing the minute turbulence their flight caused in the commercial wavelengths.

One expert, who asked not to be named said ,that hardware for PCL has not reached deployment stage.

But china has already completed Ft-2000 and is progressively working on Ft-2000A.

==============
KIEV INTERNATIONAL

PAKISTAN INTENDS TO EQUIP ITS THREE ARMED SERVICES WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS

The government of Pakistan has instructed the Defence Ministry of Pakistan to elaborate a strategic plan to equip all the three armed services of the country's Armed Forces with nuclear weapons of domestic production and missile defence systems .
Pakistan has become a nuclear power and the government should think about the means of nuclear weapons delivery, admiral Mirza believes.
Given that the government makes a relevant decision, we are ready to modernise the submarines, he said. So far, two submarines of this class has been put into operation in the Pakistani Armed Forces. The third submarine will become operational until 2004.
After Pakistan held, following India, nuclear tests in May 1998, the USA stopped military cooperation with that country. Most European countries did not officially announce about the imposition of embargo on the delivery of military equipment and technologies to Pakistan but in practice they suspended such operations. According to Mirza, France, which had supplied submarines and several fighters to Pakistan, has delayed for years the delivery of earlier agreed supplies.
Ukraine, which has shipyards, displays interest in cooperation with Pakistan. According to the admiral, Kiev has sent a number of very advantageous offers at moderate prices, including powerful gas turbines for the Navy. Mirza further said that a delegation of Pakistani military and technical experts intended to make a trip to Ukraine to study the projects.
==============================
Pakistan`s influence on that region very beneficial for USA
Pakistan trains personnel for the Azerbaijanian army

Pakistani minister of Defense
Hamid Nawaz Khan's visit to Baku
foto TURAN
Baku, AZERBAIJAN. Azerbaijan’s armed forces are ready to go into action any minute to liberate lands occupied by Armenia, and serious preparation is underway now for that purpose, Azerbaijani defense minister Safar Abiev stated at a meeting with his Pakistani counterpart, Hamid Nawaz Khan, who is on an official visit in Baku now.

At a joint press conference in Baku later in the day, the Azerbaijani defense minister highly praised the level of military cooperation between the two countries. According to minister Abiev, five Azerbaijani officers are studying at the military educational institutions in Pakistan, and 19 more are expected to join them there soon.
The visiting Pakistani secretary of defense, in turn, stressed that the two countries have similar views on the matters related to fighting terrorism and separatism. He added that Islamabad supports Azerbaijan on the issue of the Nagorno Karabakh conflict settlement.
The two ministers signed yesterday a protocol on the defense and military cooperation. They also agreed that Pakistan would continue to provide training for Azerbaijani military personnel at Pakistani military educational facilities. It was decided that the parties would study possibilities of the military-and-technological cooperation.


Prima News Azerbaijan
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Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile from US
Press Trust of India
November 05

Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf has approved the acquisition of an anti-ballistic missile system from the US, at an estimated over 1.5 billion dollars, to be deployed at key sensitive installations and nuclear facilities, Kyodo news agency quoting authoritative defence sources reported today.

The sources told the Japanese agency, on condition of anonimity, that the Defence Ministry has narrowed down its choices to the Patriot Air Defence System, the Nike Hercules missiles and the Hawk missile system.

The deal is estimated to cost more than 1.5 billion dollars and would be in addition to the military purchase that Pakistan has been negotiating with the US under the aegis of the Pakistan-US Defence Consultative Group, which met in Islamabad in September this year.

Washington has lifted a 1990 ban on supply of military equipment to Pakistan after Musharraf backed the US in its war against terrorism following the Sept 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the US.The sources said preliminary talks have been held with the US, which reportedly has expressed its willingness to supply an anti-missile system to Pakistan to discourage further missile proliferation in the region.

The three types of US anti-missile systems under consideration are readily available and delivery time is not expected to be long, the sources said.

The sources said the anti-ballistic missile system to be acquired from the US would be deployed mainly at nuclear facilities, and sites where indigenously built-short and medium-range missiles are stored or deployed.

The Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defence system to counter ballistic missiles. .


===============
Ukraine Interested in Expanding Cooperation with Pakistan
Tarasyuk

Ukraine has a special stake in a broadening of trade and economic cooperation with Pakistan, Foreign Minister Borys Tarasyuk said at a meeting with that country's Ambassador Shamun Khan, who delivered his letters of credence. In Tarasyuk's opinion, there are real opportunities for participation of Ukrainian experts in modernization of Pakistan's steel-making enterprises and construction of railroads. Ukraine is also ready to deliver to Pakistan modern vessels and power engineering equipment. The sides have also called for acceleration of contacts between the two countries at a government level. In this connection they expressed the need for signing as soon as possible a Ukrainian-Pakistani agreement on trade and economic cooperation to stipulate, in particular, the creation of a bilateral intergovernmental commission for those problems.Pakistan also remains commited to buying An-70 military transport planes from Ukraine in large numbers and also discuss joint production.

Verkhovna Rada

What do ya see pakistan is important for usa so thinkin pakistan is not important is immature ; i will like israel to have good relations with pakistan . they can help alot in coming times ; israel`s relationship with india is important too because both pakistan and india are big countries and can increase israel`s reach to the world .

[Vermuz]

Pakistan's first SLV to be ready by 2003

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan's second experimental satellite BADR-2 will be launched on a Russian rocket from the Baikonour Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan in March 2000, according to a Pakistani space scientist.

The Chairman of the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO), Mr. Abdul Majid, said the BADR-2 satellite would be launched from Baikonour Cosmodrome on a Russian 'Zenit-2' rocket.

"The main mission objectives of BADR-2 programme include indigenous development of low-cost satellites and creation of necessary infrastructure for future development in this field," added Majid at an international workshop in Islamabad on low-cost space missions.

The BADR-2 has a lifespan of 3-4 years and will collect data and can transmit this data to an earth station in Pakistan.

Meanwhile, PDNB has learnt that Pakistan's first indigenouly designed and manufactured Space Launch Vehicle (SLV) will be ready by 2003, according to Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmospheric Research Commission (SUPARCO). With SLV technology, Pakistan will attain the capability to launch its own satellites as well as to launch satellites for other countries at more economical rates than are available elsewhere.

SLV technology will enable Pakistan to build Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs), SUPARCO officials have said that Pakistan has for now no plans to manufacture ICBMs as its security threat environment does not demand such a weapons system .

==============
Agosta launched; ship deal on cards


KARACHI, Aug 24: As Pakistan Navy launched the first indigenously built Agosta 90B submarine on Saturday, six months ahead of sea trials, it announced to negotiate a similar deal with China for the construction of four surface ships.

"We have achieved a very big (defence) capability," said Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Abdul Aziz Mirza, at the launching ceremony at the Naval Dockyard here.

"Pakistan Navy today joins the elite club of a very few countries which have the ability to build submarines," said the naval chief.

The launching of submarine "SAAD" is Pakistan Navy's biggest achievement and contribution towards indegenization and self-reliance. With this launch, PN's submarine strength has increased to nine, said the naval chief.

The submarine is equipped with four bow torpedo tubes and missiles, with its fighting capacity coordinated by the French-made Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System (STICS).

According to Pakistan Navy, the Agosta 90-B has been designed to operate as an anti-submarine, anti-surface and intelligence gathering platform and is also capable of diving deeper than 300 meters (about 1,000 feet) with a maximum sprint speed of 20 knots (40 kilometres per hour).

Presence of the Chairman of Direction des Constructions Navales (DCN), France, at the launching ceremony, whose 11 engineers were killed and 12 were injured in a car bomb explosion here on May 8, symbolised the continuation of cooperation between the two countries.

He said the third Agosta 90B, being built indigenously, will be launched sometimes next year. Admiral Mirza later told newsmen that for the third Agosta, 70 per cent of construction work would be carried out here whereas some sections would be imported from France.

The contract for the construction of three such submarines was signed in 1995 but the work on the project was initiated in 1997. The first submarine, KHALID, built in France, was inducted in the PN fleet in 1999.

About the future plans of shipbuilding in Pakistan, Admiral Mirza said the government has okayed plan for the construction of four surface ships for which we want to negotiate a deal with China on transfer of technology basis.

One of the four F-22 P type 2,500-ton frigates will be built in China while the remaining three will be built in Pakistan in the existing facilities, said Admiral Mirza.

He said that acquisition and construction of surface ships was also a priority for the Navy. It is necessary that after the construction of these three submarines this programme should continue in the future, he emphasised.

Replying to a question, he said that despite the presence of a large number of submarines in the Indian fleet, Pakistan has an edge as far as the submarine capability - weapon systems, sensors and missile system - is concerned.

He dispelled the impression that India could mount a blockade of Karachi and said there is a lot of difference between the 1971 situation and the current circumstances.

He stated that our aviation assets also have missiles. So now the enemy cannot even think of anything like the blockade of Karachi. If their ships do come near Karachi then we will get the best target, he added.

Referring to the incident in which French engineers fell victim to terrorist attack in Karachi, Admiral Mirza said that though this could have inflicted irrevocable damage, the Agosta project remained on track, "thanks to the excellent cooperation between France and Pakistan. This is a message to those who committed the cowardly act of terrorism that such incidents will not deter or dissuade the two countries from achieving the common desired objectives," said Admiral Mirza.

In recognition of the sacrifices made by the French technicians the section building hall of the SMC was named "Cherbourg Hall".

Earlier in his welcome address, the Commander Logistics, Rear Admiral Mushtaq Ahmed, gave a resume of the project which he termed a milestone.

Begum H.H. Ahmed, wife of a former Naval chief, pressed the button to lower the submarine into the water.

The ceremony was also attended by the Chairman of DCN (Log) France, Yves Couchet, Director DCN Laurent Barthelemy Cherbourg, Director Submarine Project Alain Yvetot, were also present on the occasion to stress need of stronger alliance of pakistan and france in world issues .


==========================================
I just hope ppl read and don`t under estimate the important countries that we need on our side to overcome world problems.

[Leon Uris]

I just hope ppl read and don`t under estimate the important countries that we need on our side to overcome world problems.


Pakistan is important to Israel all right. But not for the reasons you mentioned. Hatred is what is taught in Pakistani schools. Hatred of the hindu. Hatred of the Jew. The Islamic bomb is something that every Israeli needs to be concerned about. If Pakistan sold nuclear assistance to North Korea, is there any reason to believe that such assistance would not be sold to the Sauds et al.

So, no, dont underestimate the danger that Pakistan poses.

India and Pakistan are important countries for Israel. But for diametrically opposite reasons.

[Vermuz]

Thanks for replying!

Pakistan is important to Israel all right.

Ofcourse it is :)

But not for the reasons you mentioned. Hatred is what is taught in Pakistani schools. Hatred of the hindu. Hatred of the Jew.

You are right absolutely but let me give a figure . There are 75000
students studying in "madrassas" last reported fgure had reached 100000 most of whom had gone to fight in afghanistan
and some in kashmir . Now listen to this ; pakistan`s population is 142,000,000. It is set to cross 150 million mark in a few years .
Try to read about pakistan`s education system . It is based on british system ; american and british style education is given ; see pakistan television and an arab television look at difference of cultures in fashion . I just want to stress need that we say good for a good thingi and bad for a bad thingi . Pakistan HAD worst madrassas teaching hatred . Its lessening due to american direct involvement with pakistan . Iran funds 95% of madrassas in pakistan ; it has been rebuffed by pakistan ; saudia arabia has already started withdrawing ppl as a sign of protest that pakistan sided with usa . It was none other than mr shimon peres of israel who said to usa ; Now don`t leave pakistan alone after what they have done for you. You know the pakistani man aimal kasi who died in usa after killin two cia officials in 1993 what he said "i have more american friends than any other nation" i don`t hate em at all i guess radical media of mideast had turned me against them . This is being taken as issue in washington to control arab media which gives one side of story and not the other side . IT tells israelli army did that but it doesn`t tell what "murderers" hamas did . We have to collectively fight arab propaganda machine from spilling poison in world and as a first step arab satellite channels have not been given license by pakistan government ; All channels are american and british and pakistani channels. I have a pakistani friend he is phd from mit and has gone to tel aviv twice sent by mit to deliver lectures in tel aviv university and he said interacting with israelli students i was so surprised they treated me as a friend i had never thought they were like that.


The Islamic bomb is something that every Israeli needs to be concerned about.

Iran called its bomb project islamic bomb ; pakistan didn`t it would have IF india had called its bomb "hindu bomb"
Also do you saudia arabia offered pakistan "8 billion" with a B for one atom bomb and said it is ready to acquire "50" pakistan
refused in 1994. By then pakistan had tested 2 bombs in ally
china in late 80s and full fledge atomic production was in place and pakistan had a stockpile by 1986.[American defence council
p.12]

If Pakistan sold nuclear assistance to North Korea, is there any reason to believe that such assistance would not be sold to the Sauds et al.

north korea is against south korea it is not "al-quaida".Koreans have been working on a bomb since 1978 they needed some tech help which pakistan provided according to washington .A device was never sold . Also japan which is a very old friend of pakistan rushed defence minister there where he was given a whole record report of what machinery and technology was sold and japanese were very thankful and also told "kyodo news" that korean bomb is not in position to be deployed on a missile since pakistan didn`t sell tech to koreans to miniaturize bombs to be tipped on missiles ; north korean bombs are in crude stage .Korea has made 2 to 3 "laboratory stage" bombs not capable of deployment on missiles though.
I hope you got it.


So, no, dont underestimate the danger that Pakistan poses.

Iam not downplaying extremism but i like many americans have
seen a lot of change in that huge country i have gone there too
twice and that should be appreciated since they are a powerful country but have a "lowsy" record on insurgency in kashmir and they are trying to change that but it takes time .
700,000 indian troops in kashmir find it difficult to do job too don`t forget.

India and Pakistan are important countries for Israel. But for diametrically opposite reasons.

Here is an insight

Washington has realized that if pakistan and india can be brought together by anyyy way (no scarcity of games in washington believe me) ; they have enough military to counter expanding china which poses threat to usa directly how they will do it is their work but i know the work has started as a first step of which both were successfully persuaded to withdraw 1 million plus troops from borders . Do you know what defense minister of israel said "we will love to have relationship with both india and pakistan" and pakistan wellcomed that . Pakistan also refrained from any criticism for which it was being pressured by arab league against israel causing arab league`s radical critics call pakistan a "non moslem state" .

I really respect your opinion but look at some other issues too.

Cheers

vermuz

[FreedomLives]

I registered just to shut you up, Mr. Paki.

You are right absolutely but let me give a figure . There are 75000
students studying in "madrassas" last reported fgure had reached 100000 most of whom had gone to fight in afghanistan
and some in kashmir . Now listen to this ; pakistan`s population is 142,000,000. It is set to cross 150 million mark in a few years .
Try to read about pakistan`s education system . It is based on british system ; american and british style education is given

Madrassas do not equal to American and/or British style education. People are not executed here because they have differing opinions on religon, no one is persecuted because they are of a different religon. I don't know where you get your figures from, but 100,000 people in madrassas are way off. And who needs madrassas? The general teaching of Islam is already bad enough.

see pakistan television and an arab television look at difference of cultures in fashion .

Yes, Paki's will never be like Arabs. They will always be something less.


Pakistan HAD worst madrassas teaching hatred . Its lessening due to american direct involvement with pakistan .

Yeah, right. More like increase, ever since the campaign in Afghanistan.

Iran funds 95% of madrassas in pakistan

Trying to put the blame on someone else? You act like Pakistan is forced to accept those "95% funds".

saudia arabia has already started withdrawing ppl as a sign of protest that pakistan sided with usa .

Withdrawing who? Saudi Arabia is protected by the United States.

Now don`t leave pakistan alone after what they have done for you.

You act like Pakistan offered space for free. Millions of dollars in aid was TRADED for space, and sanctions were lifted. No favor was done here.

You know the pakistani man aimal kasi who died in usa after killin two cia officials in 1993 what he said "i have more american friends than any other nation"

Must be American muslims. And you try to add that paragraph to try to downplay or sympathize about what he did. He killed two service men in the name of Islam, end of story.

We have to collectively fight arab propaganda machine from spilling poison in world and as a first step arab satellite channels have not been given license by pakistan government ; All channels are american and british and pakistani channels.

What's the difference?

I have a pakistani friend he is phd from mit and has gone to tel aviv twice sent by mit to deliver lectures in tel aviv university and he said interacting with israelli students i was so surprised they treated me as a friend i had never thought they were like that.

Yet another story as a cry for sympathy. :o

Iran called its bomb project islamic bomb ; pakistan didn`t it would have IF india had called its bomb "hindu bomb"

If he this.. If he that.. Please. And when he meant Islamic bomb, I don't think he meant it in that sense. But in general, Islam is a bomb in itself, it kills people.

Also do you saudia arabia offered pakistan "8 billion" with a B for one atom bomb and said it is ready to acquire "50" pakistan
refused in 1994

If I remember correctly, Shi'a hate Sunni.

Koreans have been working on a bomb since 1978 they needed some tech help which pakistan provided according to washington

Pakistan helped them make a tool that could kill several hundred thousand or millions of lives? Good job Pakistan!

Also japan which is a very old friend of pakistan rushed defence minister there where he was given a whole record report of what machinery and technology was sold and japanese were very thankful and also told "kyodo news" that korean bomb is not in position to be deployed on a missile since pakistan didn`t sell tech to koreans to miniaturize bombs to be tipped on missiles

"Old friend", I'm cracking up. You act like they rushed their Defence Minister there as a token of good will. They did that so they could find out of stupid Pakistan really did give them nuclear secrets.

So, no, dont underestimate the danger that Pakistan poses.

Yes, Pakistan is a danger, it is yet another thing that makes our lives uneasy.

Iam not downplaying extremism but i like many americans have
seen a lot of change in that huge country i have gone there too
twice and that should be appreciated since they are a powerful country but have a "lowsy" record on insurgency in kashmir and they are trying to change that but it takes time .

There is no change. And from what I have learned, Pakistan has no plans to change their insurgencies into Kashmir. Muslims are yet again causing grief to people over land which does not belong to them.

Washington has realized that if pakistan and india can be brought together by anyyy way (no scarcity of games in washington believe me) ; they have enough military to counter expanding china which poses threat to usa

Your on the wrong end of the stick here, Pakistan is allied with communist China, they have no reasons to change that.

Pakistan also refrained from any criticism for which it was being pressured by arab league against israel causing arab league`s radical critics call pakistan a "non moslem state" .

Maybe they meant a "non arab state".



Islam is the root of despair on earth, no "Ifs, ands or buts". The facts are clearly laid out for everyone to see. One day you might have some common sense and realize how dumb Islam is.

[Vermuz]

I registered just to shut you up, Mr. Paki.


HAhah iam an american for your info ; so learn to respect . Umm thats the respect you give to other nations but thatz not my business that you never learnt live free and with harmony with others .But with my wording israelli forum got a new member iam happy for that .Learn some manners son . Even if was someone from other nation noone has right to talk bad to me ; learn to respect others so that you can get respect in return . Learn now or the practical life of world teaches it to everyone ; many hot worded ppl came here but were cooled down . World is very ruthless out there.

Yes, Paki's will never be like Arabs. They will always be something less.

Difference is if you go to school to learn that . I will not tell you here go ask your teacher the difference of power , capability , minds , culture everything.

Yeah, right. More like increase, ever since the campaign in Afghanistan.


Are you speaking from inside pakistan :) Because i have been on missions to pakistan 3 times . Us government sponsored.


Trying to put the blame on someone else? You act like Pakistan is forced to accept those "95% funds".


HAhah pakistan has no interests that match with iran . Simple!
Moreover pakistan being a colonial state thanks to the british has always been in books of british and americans as a result of that don`t ever expect major blunders from pakistan . You will like to know their ties with british that British army had planned that pakistani and indian people as much as possible will be air lifted by british to garcia base in case of nuking by both sides some years ago . Deep ties ! indeed . Iran on other hand has interests expanding from asia to persian gulf to the rim of africa . To get em it funds hezbollah and north alliance in afghanistan and helps libya and also somalian guerillas its a long thrash . I hope you have read about pakistani military operation in somalia to save americans . It was lauded by pentagon read about it .Son!

Withdrawing who? Saudi Arabia is protected by the United States.

Umm not exactly . USa is tending to leave saudia arabia in next 3 years . They don`t have interests there , they are now moving to former soviet republics RICH with oil and have pipelines pump oil through karachi pakistan to usa . USa will in next few years almost stop importing oil from mideast to end dependency on arab states most of which are terrorists and are not good for american interests especially our ally israel in the region .


You act like Pakistan offered space for free. Millions of dollars in aid was TRADED for space, and sanctions were lifted. No favor was done here.

Ummm please check "American minority report 2001" You will find their usa didn`t even pay for using pakistani fuel for jet aircaft using pakistani bases and our flights . Mr rumsfield himself said in sate department we have`nt paid em anything we will if they ask ". You need to catch up with lot of reading.


Must be American muslims. And you try to add that paragraph to try to downplay or sympathize about what he did. He killed two service men in the name of Islam, end of story.

Hahaha iam not moslem apart from that iam not saying he is holy warrior something DID i . He killed ppl he is dead now end of story but he was interviewed by CBS in 2000 . He said things .

What's the difference?

Ask your elders about that :)


Yet another story as a cry for sympathy.

Pakistan doesn`t need sympathy . Iam just saying hatred should be based on facts . What can world do to pakistan ; i hope you have someone to tell u that .


If he this.. If he that.. Please. And when he meant Islamic bomb, I don't think he meant it in that sense. But in general, Islam is a bomb in itself, it kills people.

Gimme as a whole sense . Not all of em though . Leme give u an example posterie . If arafat is a terrorist WHICH he is ! then doesn`t mean all palestinians are terrorists there must be some good too infact many but since a bad guy is controlling things situations doesn`t become good . So will you kill arafat and his network or the whole palestine . Mr bush explained many such things in his texas address did u hear ??


quote:


If I remember correctly, Shi'a hate Sunni.


Hahahah saudia is SUNNI . Pakistan is sunni iran is shi a.


Pakistan helped them make a tool that could kill several hundred thousand or millions of lives? Good job Pakistan!

yeah in the long run bad for "korean peninsula" maybe but not for world . "cannot be used on missiles" have to be dropped like brick from a plane which koreans don`t have capacity and also not deployable in lil time rapid reaction attack if u know what is miniaturization is . ALso they have mere 2 to 3 of em .They will get aid in return of givin those toys away.Not a big deal .Korea is different from other cases mind ya.


"Old friend", I'm cracking up. You act like they rushed their Defence Minister there as a token of good will. They did that so they could find out of stupid Pakistan really did give them nuclear secrets.

Ummm no japan funds most of pakistan`s technology projects ; pakistan cannot play with them ; pakistan also has excellent ties with japan and china as BIG trade partners . They will not to lose em . Since apart from europe , japan is one of the biggest trade partners of pakistan and gives lot of aid too to pakistan .
In 1995 international blame game usa also claimed that japan was getting pakistani help to develop military capability in nuke field since japanese are very modern in civil use but were not allowed to research in military field . usa then kept cool since japan is an important ally of usa and not much was known about results of pentagon investigation since then .


There is no change. And from what I have learned, Pakistan has no plans to change their insurgencies into Kashmir. Muslims are yet again causing grief to people over land which does not belong to them.

Umm there i will give you totally AMERICAN government view . Its an internal matter of pakistan and india , international community cannot speak on it like ; chechnya is a human catastrophe but world cannot do anythin about it so america said same to it "INTERNAL matter of russia".


Your on the wrong end of the stick here, Pakistan is allied with communist China, they have no reasons to change that.

Did u read what i said ; usa is planning major haul on its relationship with pakistan to make big alliance there .
What you think about this is something you know but america is doing it . the difference will be that if usa is in the end successful it will get a HUGE boost to its capabilities. There was a seminar here in california berkeley in which dr paul o neill of strategic planning said if we get pakistan on our side , we can severely make the dream of stopping china from becoming superpower . That will take some time to win trust of pakistan since usa left pakistan after pakistan defeated soviets in afghanistan and stopped it from reaching warm waters of karachi.But usa has begun the effort


They meant what i said :)



Islam is the root of despair on earth, no "Ifs, ands or buts". The facts are clearly laid out for everyone to see. One day you might have some common sense and realize how dumb Islam is.

Ummm iam telling you what is true .
Islam is not bad at all . Some ppl have hijacked it . When they are gone things will be normal again . I was very happy when mr ariel sharon said iran should be next target of war on terror . Iran is a root cause it needs to be dealt with . Did you check out global security new channel where pakistan and american armies were undertaking massive land , sea and air exercies near quetta and karachi . One of colonels of us army i think didn`t know this thing is going on air ; SLIP OF TONGUE he said we are preparing for iraq and we got some business in iran too !

Funny he didn`t know he had spelt out us policy to some extent .
Did you read about pakistan`s role in Gulf war . How Pakistan and french armies cut supply lines of iraqi army and then usa and british allies attack iraq read about it . The fall of baghdad famous title by raulph spencer a senior american officer .Also if cannot afford the book you can watch BBC documentary on Gulf war ; BBC prime i think on weekend they even show some shots of pakistan army tanks rumbling into iraq coupled with french troops don`t miss the programme !

[Moskal']

Originally posted by Vermuz
HAhah iam an american for your info ; so learn to respect...
Being american is no reason for being respected.

[Mil]

Originally posted by Moskal'
Being american is no reason for being respected.


Moskalek - ne myti vody. Tyt vse svoi.

[GauravS]

Vermuz,

the report that you site about Pakistan being able to take care of India is at least a decade old, that is before India's economy took off. All you have to do is make a realistic comparison for yourself.
Lets see:
Air force: India about 800 fighter ac which even if we take away the 300 or so Mig 21's is far superior to any AF in our neighbourhood.
Pakistan: 32 old F-16's, copied Mig 21's

Navy: I do not think I can even use IN and PN in the same sentence that compares the two, IN is a true blue water navy and PN is a coastal navy with only the 3 new augostas that even make it a threat.

Army: Given there is some balance here, but you have to take into account the resources that india can put into the fight and Pakistan can not

Economy: Ahhh, lets see, worlds seventh largest economy against Pakistans 32 billion GDP ( 800 billion Vs 32 billion) no mathch, its a massacre

Foreign reserves : 68 bilion (India) and 6 billion (Pakistan, and that too loans and breathers from loan payments).

and then you give an article with Pakistans Badr satellite and its SLV,

do you have any idea how many satellites INdia has launched and how much time has passed since India fired the SLV. India now uses the GSLV. India launched its first satellite in 1972 (think) and fired its SLV sometime soon after.
Please, do me a favor and tell me how can a country which has had no published papers in the International journals for the past 10 years claim to have technology that comes close to a country that produced the third largest number of articles in intl' journals.

[Mil]

What's funny that every war that Pakistan fought with India - it lost. Actually any war that any Arab country has fought since WWII it lost. Of course I am not mentioning inter-Arab fighting.

[GauravS]

Yes, and that's what bugs me about their behaviour. They all act like they could beat the out of Israel if the US was not there, but they forget that Israel fought about 6 nations and whooped their collective Asses quite comfortably.

[Mil]

Yes, and that's what bugs me about their behaviour. They all act like they could beat the out of Israel if the US was not there, but they forget that Israel fought about 6 nations and whooped their collective Asses quite comfortably.


Well not that comfortably - large casualties and huge economic drain especially in 73. But for general discussion yes.

I heard Indian and Israeli military cooperation have reached over a billion dollars in the past few years. Sounds very encouraging.

[GauravS]

Yes, they have and if this Phalcon AWACS and the Arrow deal goes through Israel might as well displace Russia as India's largest arms supplier. One of the unique things about the Phalcon deal is that India prefers the Russian Il 76 for the platform and the Phalcon system overall and this is turning out to be a three way deal ,being touted as the begining of a trilareral collaboration.

and I would really like to see Israel and Russia start a new relationship based on mutual benefit.

[Mil]

Yes, they have and if this Phalcon AWACS and the Arrow deal goes through Israel might as well displace Russia as India's largest arms supplier. One of the unique things about the Phalcon deal is that India prefers the Russian Il 76 for the platform and the Phalcon system overall and this is turning out to be a three way deal ,being touted as the begining of a trilareral collaboration.


As far as AWACs it might be the same deal as China. US will put its fut down. There is a relationship with Pakistan to geopardize.


and I would really like to see Israel and Russia start a new relationship based on mutual benefit.


Oh they do. Don't warry. On every level and quite extensively including intelligence, military, economic, political, academic, cultural and etc....

[GauravS]

The US has already given the no objection certificate to that deal, the only thing that is being worked out right now are the modalities of the aircraft transfer to Israel and how to integrate the systems.

[Vermuz]

Mr Gaurav iam gonan make it clear once and then don`t expect me to answer flame.
Usa agreed to let israel sell phalcon to india after it had agreed to sell patriot and ep-3 sentry to pakistan . I can help you with a copy of us state department if you are in usa . Usa also gifted pakistan 3 Ep-2 in 1998 to stop a deal between pakistan and iran on missile parts for shahab missile . Pakistan also has rights to use saudia arabian fleet of awacs in conflicts which disturbed me in my article for sanjose mercury . And i wanted to show the deep routed cooperation between pakistan and saudia arabia which also gives right to pakistan pilots to use saudi F-15E and uae Mirage-2009 most modern mirage as well as saudi british tornado.


the report that you site about Pakistan being able to take care of India is at least a decade old, that is before India's economy took off. All you have to do is make a realistic comparison for yourself.
Lets see:
Air force: India about 800 fighter ac which even if we take away the 300 or so Mig 21's is far superior to any AF in our neighbourhood.
Pakistan: 32 old F-16's, copied Mig 21's


Pakistan 36 F-16A/B . Upto 200 mirage-3 and Mirage-5 which give it deeper strike capability than indian migs. Pakistan has nothing to match india`s Su-30mki for that pakistan has asked France for mirage-2005 and rafale and usa for F-18 and F-16C/d one will be bought on basis of availability.Also coming 160 S-7 with beyond visual range missiles .

Navy: I do not think I can even use IN and PN in the same sentence that compares the two, IN is a true blue water navy and PN is a coastal navy with only the 3 new augostas that even make it a threat.

Pakistan has british frigates old but capable of firing harpoon .
Pakistan has no destroyer to match indian delhi destroyers but pakistan has charted out plan to buy destroyers from china armed with american missiles as well as ukrainian russian supersonic missiles.Pakistan has 11 submarines india has 16 submarines . both are increasing fleet . pakistan is set to introduce nuclear strike sub by 2003 india has already introduced it in 2002.

Army: Given there is some balance here, but you have to take into account the resources that india can put into the fight and Pakistan can not

I don`t see it that way since after chinese will also be involved.
ALso indian tank projects failed while pakistan has a modern and consistent tank development programme . Pakistan has a big armoury like india i don`t see india making difference in land war in any case at all . The pakistanis boast T-80Ud . T-85, Mbt-2000
and old inventory of chinese tanks . Indians have a failed arjun ,Tank Ex far from completion , T-72 outmatched by pakistani tanks in all sphere . Mi-35 outmatched by pakistani cobra and pakistanis are also discussing mangusta with italians and also got 6 apache in american military aid .



Economy: Ahhh, lets see, worlds seventh largest economy against Pakistans 32 billion GDP ( 800 billion Vs 32 billion) no mathch, its a massacre

No match in economy you are right absolutely!!!But don`t forget difference in sizes too while discussing . India is 7 times larger than pakistan it is among top ten in world`s largest economies got to be due to its size pakistan is what i heard in 1996 at 20th place . But that cannot be taken into account to since israel is 48th on the list of largest economies yet its per capital income reaches european levels while that of india and pakistan is few hundred or maybe less.And yeah china is second and will be one in a decade if it continues to grow as it is growing thanks to india and pakistan fighting all time . China`s JUST defence budget will cross 250 Billion dollars by 2018 and 2019 . Gosh!!!! thatz close american defense budget is 379 billion dollars though .And that too because china doesn`t want to have a big defense budget like usa . It wants to keep spending less than usa always otherwise it can afford that in coming years too !Nightmaree!!

and then you give an article with Pakistans Badr satellite and its SLV,

do you have any idea how many satellites INdia has launched and how much time has passed since India fired the SLV. India now uses the GSLV. India launched its first satellite in 1972 (think) and fired its SLV sometime soon after.

yes russian vehicles imported by india and now manufactured in india mr gaurav . Pakistan is also not genius it is getting it from ukraine or china . Luckily for india russians never had conditions to sell to india as russia was very poor . In pakistan`s case usa has sanctioned pakistan 16 times. Hah! kinda hillarious

Please, do me a favor and tell me how can a country which has had no published papers in the International journals for the past 10 years claim to have technology that comes close to a country that produced the third largest number of articles in intl' journals.

Pakistan did produce journals its not true they didn`t but you are correct they didn`t match india in that since india has produces 130 Phds a year.Compared to that pakistanis will be producing 40 phds a year that too because of american help .

You can contact me anytime if u have more queries. on my mail add. Frankly india cannot out do pakistan like you quote mr gaurav . And pakistan cannot outdo india . Both are in no win situation its better both develop good ties and have better economies to counter expanding china which is using pakistan to take care of india and is itself working day and night for excelent economy to counter usa . History has examples that in such deals the end result is total gulping . Meaning china will eventually overshadow both india and pakistan`s survival too if they keep fighting eachother and forgetting a rising dragon from china. Better check ur back now both of you or face the music in coming years.

Cheers Vermuz

[Vermuz]

What's funny that every war that Pakistan fought with India - it lost. Actually any war that any Arab country has fought since WWII it lost. Of course I am not mentioning inter-Arab fighting.






Not exactly mr Mil.

Pakistan - India
===========
1948 :Pakistan captured whats called now pakistan controlled kashmir.


1962 :chinese made an example of india iam sorry indian buddies. Nothin personal here.

1965:Pakistan beat india convincingly gaining ground both in kashmir and punjab had to leave captured areas in kashmir due to UN law .

1971:Mutiny in east pakistan ; abetted by india . Pakistan beaten by india .

1983: India amasses troops on border with pakistan . massive pakistani deployment frightens india . No war

1999:*****Kargil****
Check out us state department for facts please don`t go to paki sites too lop sided don`t go to indian sites .

Pakistan had gained total supremacy in kargil except ofcourse the tiger hill good effort by indians . Mr clinton brokered deal to give india back all the area taken by pakistan . Thanks to Usa . Say thank you!! we used our say on pakistan.

2001:India deploys . Pakistan replies with massie deployment .
India again frightened , forces called back .

Both are concentrating on more and technologically better missile systems so by coming years their airforces will be out of business as both will have developed almost every type of missile world has known .

ISRAEL
=====

Our buddies , our allies , great fighting courageous nation and our Responsibility. \../

hasta la veesta

[Vermuz]

WHILE INDIA AND PAKISTAN FIGHT EACH OTHER ALL TIME
========================================
SOMEONE IS QUIET
==============

WASHINGTON POST

Special report: China
Red Star Rising
Forget the doomsayers, China will become the next tech titan.
By Orville Schell
November 7, 2002

Napoleon Bonaparte is said to have prophesied, "When China wakes, it will shake the world." China has now awakened, not to political revolution à la Mao Zedong, but to economic revolution à la Deng Xiaoping and Jiang Zemin. Even the most skeptical critics are amazed at the country's developmental prowess. Following the tragic demonstrations at Tiananmen Square in 1989, Mr. Deng had the singular vision to keep alive the economic reform program that he had started a decade earlier, while maintaining a firm hand on the political helm. The result has been one of the most impressive economic miracles of recent times. It would not be too extravagant to say that under Mr. Jiang, China has experienced its most stable, productive, and hopeful decade in a century.


Since 1990, China's gross domestic product has quintupled to $1.2 trillion. In 1986, China received only $2 billion in foreign direct investment (FDI), but by 2001, that figure had risen to $47 billion--80 percent of all FDI for Asia. Furthermore, China has one of the highest savings rates of any major country in the world (approximately 35 percent of national income for a total of more than $1 trillion), healthy foreign exchange reserves (currently around $242 billion), and it has posted annual growth rates of at least 7 percent every year since the '80s.

A new group of practical, ambitious, hardworking, and well-educated young people, unscarred by Mao's revolution, now constitutes a burgeoning Chinese middle class of entrepreneurs, technocrats, and managers. They provide the momentum behind their country's rapid development and are beginning to percolate into the upper leadership. Benefitting from the participation of some 60 million wealthy and trade-savvy overseas Chinese compatriots and an inexhaustible supply of low-cost, industrious, and well-behaved domestic workers, China's cities and coastal areas are transforming into increasingly vibrant centers of manufacturing and trade with which no country in Asia can compete.

Not only is China reforming its economy and opening its doors to the outside world, it is also making peace with its neighbors. By doing so, it has taken impressive steps to create an environment conducive to global business. Through the World Trade Organization, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, and other rules-based international trading regimes, China has become an ever more integral and reliable player in the world market system. The government has enhanced this reliability by implementing new legal codes, nursing its fledgling financial market (with a market capitalization of around $170 billion), transforming its banks from organs of a state-owned command economy to those of a market-driven economy, and building state-of-the-art infrastructures like a fiber-optic communications network and a system of national highways.

By maintaining a nonconvertible currency and strict controls on foreign businesses operating in China, the country's leaders have kept its economy sheltered from the kind of predatory flows of global capital to which much of the rest of Asia fell prey in 1997. And through its single state-sponsored labor union, industry has remained shielded from disruptive labor strikes and supply shortages. Moreover, China's tough national security laws have kept society inviolate from the destabilizing effects of political dissidents and disruptive partisan politics. It is this deft strategy of tough political tutelage and economic openness--of encouraging, as Mr. Deng said, "some people to get rich first, so that others can follow"--that has been responsible for the "China miracle." Not only has it enabled business to develop and flourish, but it has allowed China to experience a rare interregnum of peace, relative prosperity, stability, and increasing personal freedom. In short, China has what it takes to become not only an Asian, but also a global technology leader and world power.

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Mr Gaurav iam gonan make it clear once and then don`t expect me to answer flame.
Usa agreed to let israel sell phalcon to india after it had agreed to sell patriot and ep-3 sentry to pakistan . I can help you with a copy of us state department if you are in usa . Usa also gifted pakistan 3 Ep-2 in 1998 to stop a deal between pakistan and iran on missile parts for shahab missile . Pakistan also has rights to use saudia arabian fleet of awacs in conflicts which disturbed me in my article for sanjose mercury . And i wanted to show the deep routed cooperation between pakistan and saudia arabia which also gives right to pakistan pilots to use saudi F-15E and uae Mirage-2009 most modern mirage as well as saudi british tornado.


the report that you site about Pakistan being able to take care of India is at least a decade old, that is before India's economy took off. All you have to do is make a realistic comparison for yourself.
Lets see:
Air force: India about 800 fighter ac which even if we take away the 300 or so Mig 21's is far superior to any AF in our neighbourhood.
Pakistan: 32 old F-16's, copied Mig 21's


Pakistan 36 F-16A/B . Upto 200 mirage-3 and Mirage-5 which give it deeper strike capability than indian migs. Pakistan has nothing to match india`s Su-30mki for that pakistan has asked France for mirage-2005 and rafale and usa for F-18 and F-16C/d one will be bought on basis of availability.Also coming 160 S-7 with beyond visual range missiles .

Navy: I do not think I can even use IN and PN in the same sentence that compares the two, IN is a true blue water navy and PN is a coastal navy with only the 3 new augostas that even make it a threat.

Pakistan has british frigates old but capable of firing harpoon .
Pakistan has no destroyer to match indian delhi destroyers but pakistan has charted out plan to buy destroyers from china armed with american missiles as well as ukrainian russian supersonic missiles.Pakistan has 11 submarines india has 16 submarines . both are increasing fleet . pakistan is set to introduce nuclear strike sub by 2003 india has already introduced it in 2002.

Army: Given there is some balance here, but you have to take into account the resources that india can put into the fight and Pakistan can not

I don`t see it that way since after chinese will also be involved.
ALso indian tank projects failed while pakistan has a modern and consistent tank development programme . Pakistan has a big armoury like india i don`t see india making difference in land war in any case at all . The pakistanis boast T-80Ud . T-85, Mbt-2000
and old inventory of chinese tanks . Indians have a failed arjun ,Tank Ex far from completion , T-72 outmatched by pakistani tanks in all sphere . Mi-35 outmatched by pakistani cobra and pakistanis are also discussing mangusta with italians and also got 6 apache in american military aid .



Economy: Ahhh, lets see, worlds seventh largest economy against Pakistans 32 billion GDP ( 800 billion Vs 32 billion) no mathch, its a massacre

No match in economy you are right absolutely!!!But don`t forget difference in sizes too while discussing . India is 7 times larger than pakistan it is among top ten in world`s largest economies got to be due to its size pakistan is what i heard in 1996 at 20th place . But that cannot be taken into account to since israel is 48th on the list of largest economies yet its per capital income reaches european levels while that of india and pakistan is few hundred or maybe less.And yeah china is second and will be one in a decade if it continues to grow as it is growing thanks to india and pakistan fighting all time . China`s JUST defence budget will cross 250 Billion dollars by 2018 and 2019 . Gosh!!!! thatz close american defense budget is 379 billion dollars though .And that too because china doesn`t want to have a big defense budget like usa . It wants to keep spending less than usa always otherwise it can afford that in coming years too !Nightmaree!!

Foreign reserves : 68 bilion (India) and 6 billion (Pakistan, and that too loans and breathers from loan payments).

Pakistan`s reserves 8.456 billion dollars .India is also a third world country mr gaurav we give your country millions of dollars of aid every year and also approve loans from imf to help in recent drought too we gave u guyz millions of dollars . But check one thingi india is 7 times bigger than pakistan .
So if u make the comparison 8*7 =56 i think its accordingo to pakistan and india needs don`t u think.

and then you give an article with Pakistans Badr satellite and its SLV,

do you have any idea how many satellites INdia has launched and how much time has passed since India fired the SLV. India now uses the GSLV. India launched its first satellite in 1972 (think) and fired its SLV sometime soon after.

yes russian vehicles imported by india and now manufactured in india mr gaurav . Pakistan is also not genius it is getting it from ukraine or china . Luckily for india russians never had conditions to sell to india as russia was very poor . In pakistan`s case usa has sanctioned pakistan 16 times. Hah! kinda hillarious

Please, do me a favor and tell me how can a country which has had no published papers in the International journals for the past 10 years claim to have technology that comes close to a country that produced the third largest number of articles in intl' journals.

Pakistan did produce journals its not true they didn`t but you are correct they didn`t match india in that since india has produces 130 Phds a year.Compared to that pakistanis will be producing 40 phds a year that too because of american help .

You can contact me anytime if u have more queries. on my mail add. Frankly india cannot out do pakistan like you quote mr gaurav . And pakistan cannot outdo india . Both are in no win situation its better both develop good ties and have better economies to counter expanding china which is using pakistan to take care of india and is itself working day and night for excelent economy to counter usa . History has examples that in such deals the end result is total gulping . Meaning china will eventually overshadow both india and pakistan`s survival too if they keep fighting eachother and forgetting a rising dragon from china. Better check ur back now both of you or face the music in coming years.

Cheers Vermuz


All your points lack logic,

Economy and income, foreign aid: Foreign aid, the total Us foreign aid to India in year 2002 stands at 20 million dollars, so do not go around showing your superiority where it does not exist. Just doing simple math you equated economy to x * area, thats just plain ignoreance, if that is true then how come Japan with not even 1/20 th the sizeof America had an economy almost equal to the US's, and yes I also forgot to mention that if you take economy in PPP terms Indian economy is the third largest in the World with a per capita of $ 3000, do a google search for UN deveopment index and it will surely open your eyes.

Space Program: The only thing Russia helped India with was the satellites, the GSLV was deveoped completely in India, because as you so galantly say "you" pressurized russia not to give us the cryogenic engine. India's space program is so advanced now that during the Gulf war and the Kosovo wars you might have noticed that during Pentagon briefings there was a logo of Indian Remote Sensing satellite on the slides he showed (do a google search for those videos or Indian Remote Ensing satellites).

China: India is competing with China, IMF and WB project Indian economy to be the third largest in the world in the next 20 years (and this is in real terms not PPP that I gave out above), so do your search before posting.

Wars:
1948) : Pakistan got what it got because of bad judgement on the part of Nehru other than that how do you explain the the PA never got behing Srinagar where it was before the IA even landed in Kashmir.

1965) Pakstan never made much headway, IA reached till Lahore (the Pakstani heartland)

1971) Everyone can see the results a new country on the map and 93,000 POWs

1999-99) Kargil, no one credits Pakstan with victory, all you have to do is search Rand corporations database, FAS, stratfor, janes etc etc. Given the IA was caught unawares but after the air strikes started to soften the enemy position they collapsed like a house of cards, and if as you say India lost then why is it that Pakistan and not India ran to Clinton crying like a baby, that is surely not a sign of a victor is it?

2002-2003) India did not attack because we a mature nuclear power, and we care for our population not like some rag tag dictator who uses the N word like its the word of god (his ambassador to the UN clearly threatened the use of nukes even if India used only conventional weapons).

Almost forgot your points about AF: Do you live on planet earth? Not even people on Pakistan Def make the claim of getting F18, rafaels etc. uncle sam just told them no F 16's and you expect them to gve F-18's. Indian AF has Mig 23, 27, 29, 100Jaguars, 60 M 2000H (better than the ones Pak has) and France has offered M 2000 and Rafael to INdia with TOT. All of these are BVR capable and way better than anything PAF has.

Navy: Do not make me laugh, no one in the world takes PN as a serious threat. here is a link that I got from acig forum (if you want detailed info) go to that forum, it has great people there.
http://www.geocities.com/eastasia101/ranking.htm

Go ahead do your research and then come back, this is not flaming this is discussion.

[Mediocrates]

if that is true then how come Japan with not even 1/20 th the sizeof America had an economy almost equal to the US's


Japan is 90% the size of California 38 million hectares vs. 42 million and houses about 4x the people, 126 million vs. 34 million.

It has the 2nd or 3rd largest economy for a single nation. Numbers for the PRC are difficult to understand.

India is ranked 11th overall.

Pakistan is slightly smaller than ExxonMobil which puts it somewhere in the top one hundred but it is also ranked in the top 1,2,3 as most corrupt country by agencies who do that. Moreover the total external debt is >50% of GDP which is a recipe for disaster.

[GauravS]

my points exactly.

[Vermuz]

All your points lack logic,

Son you are not even near what iam :)

Economy and income, foreign aid: Foreign aid, the total Us foreign aid to India in year 2002 stands at 20 million dollars, so do not go around showing your superiority where it does not exist. Just doing simple math you equated economy to x * area, thats just plain ignoreance, if that is true then how come Japan with not even 1/20 th the sizeof America had an economy almost equal to the US's, and yes I also forgot to mention that if you take economy in PPP terms Indian economy is the third largest in the World with a per capita of $ 3000, do a google search for UN deveopment index and it will surely open your eyes.


Ummm mr gaurav my point was that indian economy is bigger than france and england still it gets aid from them . Does china get aid from them.


Space Program: The only thing Russia helped India with was the satellites, the GSLV was deveoped completely in India, because as you so galantly say "you" pressurized russia not to give us the cryogenic engine. India's space program is so advanced now that during the Gulf war and the Kosovo wars you might have noticed that during Pentagon briefings there was a logo of Indian Remote Sensing satellite on the slides he showed (do a google search for those videos or Indian Remote Ensing satellites).


We have full intel that india got cryogenic rockets my ussr and also got help in engines . Please don`t tell us you guyz are some smarties . We know your capabilities to the full ; your dr abdul kalam was in virginia not such a big shot but he himself said laughing prithvi is a mix of scud c and sa-2 . Ask anyone in virginia university and he or she will tell ya.

China: India is competing with China, IMF and WB project Indian economy to be the third largest in the world in the next 20 years (and this is in real terms not PPP that I gave out above), so do your search before posting.

India competing with china ! I know when did i deny it but sorry to say your rivalry with pakistan will slow you down and you will not reach it while china is already reaching the top slot.


Wars:
1948) : Pakistan got what it got because of bad judgement on the part of Nehru other than that how do you explain the the PA never got behing Srinagar where it was before the IA even landed in Kashmir.

IF you are showing the map of Bangladesh i will also like you to see pakistan controlled kashmir . See it ! bad judgement of pakistan was to concentrate on west front not on east so don`t talk judgements here . Talk simple you lost!

1965) Pakstan never made much headway, IA reached till Lahore (the Pakstani heartland)

You reached it but you were driven back with heavy casualties.

1971) Everyone can see the results a new country on the map and 93,000 POWs

Yes they do pakistan lost!

1999-99) Kargil, no one credits Pakstan with victory, all you have to do is search Rand corporations database, FAS, stratfor, janes etc etc. Given the IA was caught unawares but after the air strikes started to soften the enemy position they collapsed like a house of cards, and if as you say India lost then why is it that Pakistan and not India ran to Clinton crying like a baby, that is surely not a sign of a victor is it?


NOT pakistan the fanatic generals wanted to continue operation mr nawaz sharif showing his allegiance to usa came and asked clinton to help because mr musharraf had said it on his face he ain`t taking orders this worried nawax sharif and he came to us. Musharraf wanted to continue operation which was going fine i again say go to state department archives in louisiana not sites scattered around web you know how truthful they are . Most of em are controlled by ppl with specific likes and dislikes.

2002-2003) India did not attack because we a mature nuclear power, and we care for our population not like some rag tag dictator who uses the N word like its the word of god (his ambassador to the UN clearly threatened the use of nukes even if India used only conventional weapons).


Uh! Mr vajpayee said to pakistan if you meddle with our affairs we will nuke pakistan comeon don`t tell me you didn`t read it .

Almost forgot your points about AF: Do you live on planet earth? Not even people on Pakistan Def make the claim of getting F18, rafaels etc. uncle sam just told them no F 16's and you expect them to gve F-18's. Indian AF has Mig 23, 27, 29, 100Jaguars, 60 M 2000H (better than the ones Pak has) and France has offered M 2000 and Rafael to INdia with TOT. All of these are BVR capable and way better than anything PAF has.

Mig-23/27/29 and jags are old stuff mr gaurav . Ask anyone who has been in military a mirage is much more capable than these yes your mirage-2000 and su-30 are good for that usa has given signal it will consider options of selling weapons to pakistan and the thing is not over yet if it was over pakistan would have already bought mirage-2005 from france but we want to help them . Its pakistan`s right to defend itself . And we recognize it and will help it the details of most of the deals are never given out so keep fingers crossed we will help them thatz for sure thatz an assurance of a high heirarchy of americans to pakistanis .


Navy: Do not make me laugh, no one in the world takes PN as a serious threat. here is a link that I got from acig forum (if you want detailed info) go to that forum, it has great people there.
http://www.geocities.com/eastasia101/ranking.htm


GEOCITIES!! hahahah comeon mr gaurav grow up !!
Every child has site on geocities.
Pn has the capability which you in blind pride don`t see . and pakistan has also pact with chinese that china can deploy warships in pakistani waters if needed and don`t forget us we got a carrier group there . And it will be there for sometime to come .

Go ahead do your research and then come back, this is not flaming this is discussion.

Research i know all stuff why will i research.

I like my many colleagues in policy makin department of usa think simple . India has an arrogant government which is not doing the peace talks . India cannot win from pakistan and pakistan cannot win from india . Both are wasting their time and our precious time . And we just don`t want this to hamper our interests in region which we have in both of them . And the interests in pakistan maybe longer due to our interested in CIS , war on terror , espionage on iran , china and russia and maybe keeping an eye on you guyz that you don`t help iran which you have a history of relations with . Thatz all

[GauravS]

Mr . Vermuz,

Yes, China is the largest Aid recepient nation in the world (Source: WB, IMF), and you talk as if you are the one incharge of covert US operations to help Pakistan. YOu would do better to read up on stuff you say.

There are no F18,s or even sqat except the C 130's planned for Pakistan anywhere in the near future, go to the US congress website and look at Export requests.

and about Pn, you say China will come to help, go do any search you like to and you will come up with the result that even though most people credit China with a formidable army, no one credits its AF with being more powerful than the IAF and its navy with bein more powerful than IN (hint: go to any CHinese defence forum or do your own search).

Space program: You have intel, do not make me laugh, everyone knows what US intel is, Nuke Blasts passes right past them, N. Koreas nukes pased right past you and your INtel came to know about it when they told you, its Israeli intellegence agencies that are your sources.

POK, yes I did say that PA reached Srinagar and not an inch further because they were at Srinagar when IA landed there.and no one drove IA from Lahore, Russia brokered ceasefire whikle INdians were in Lahore.

As for Vajpayee saying we will nuke Pak, that was in response to Pakistan standing and saying in the UN that even if India attacked with conventional weapons they will use nukes, and so that you know INdia has a no first use policy.

and for the abilities of Indians, Indians own 33% of all companies in Silicon valley, India developed its own Super computer in 1991 and now exports it top Japan and Russia, if you look at the supercomputing Magazine rankings the PARAM supercomputer is ranked above your CRAY super computer.
and about cryo engine rockets being from USSR, yes they supplied two engines which are still being used at test beds as standards against which India mneasures its GSLV engines.

[jcsd]

I registered just to shut you up, Mr. Paki.

The correct term for someone from Pakistan is 'Pakistani', 'Paki' on the other hand is an extremely racist insult used against anyone orginating in the Indian sub-continent (i.e. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh).

[GauravS]

Originally posted by jcsd
The correct term for someone from Pakistan is 'Pakistani', 'Paki' on the other hand is an extremely racist insult used against anyone orginating in the Indian sub-continent (i.e. India, Pakistan and Bangladesh).

Paki, is an abusive term used against only Pakistanis, if you call me a paki, I would be offended not because of the term but because you implied I am a Pakistani. It is not used for everyone from the Sub-continent.

[jcsd]

You are wrong, I don't know where you live, but this particular term of abuse orginates in the UK and refers to immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, most of whom, but by no means all came from Pakistan.

Pakistani is the correct way to refer to someone from Pakistan if you called a Pakistani, 'Paki', they would almost certainly subject you to violence of a physical nature

[GauravS]

Yes, I would agree that violence would be resorted to, but I have friends in the UK and they tell me that Paki is used only for Pakistanis.
and I would also like to add that the Pakistanis have brought this abuse on themselves and have no one else to blame for it. From BBc reports it seems to me that pakistanis have not assissimilated into the British society and prefer to live in ghettos and generally form thelower income strata in the UK, I could be wrong but that's the impression I got.

[jcsd]

I am in the UK and the term is used generally for all people from the Indian subcontinent, as most racists find the distinction between Pakistani and Indian too subtle. For example cornershops (I think there called 7/11's in the US) are sometimes referred to by racists as 'Paki shops', despite the fact they are mostly run by Indian immigrants, specifically Sikhs.

[Vermuz]

Yes, China is the largest Aid recepient nation in the world (Source: WB, IMF), and you talk as if you are the one incharge of covert US operations to help Pakistan. YOu would do better to read up on stuff you say.

Mr Gaurav largest aid recipient is north korea please!! check it why do you go to sites go to real places find out ; go to state department reserves . Comeon internet is all .


There are no F18,s or even sqat except the C 130's planned for Pakistan anywhere in the near future, go to the US congress website and look at Export requests.

I didn`t say usa has said it . i said check JANES DEFENCE and you will find what pakistan air chief has asked usa . F-16C/D, F-18A by the way pakistan has rights on kuwaiti F-18D since they gave em the authority . However we in us are urging pakistanis to be very careful with that.

and about Pn, you say China will come to help, go do any search you like to and you will come up with the result that even though most people credit China with a formidable army, no one credits its AF with being more powerful than the IAF and its navy with bein more powerful than IN (hint: go to any CHinese defence forum or do your own search).


Oh my GOd .

China : 200+ Su-27 by 2004 , 132 Su-30Mkk , 300 J-10 by 2004
300 S-7 with european systems . Although F-7 are but china has largest airforce in the world . Deal on Su-33 in making .
80 Su-34 to be signed when mr putin visits china this time. Nuclear capable Q-5 . Stealth J-12 programme in full swing.
India : Only impressive 40 Su-30 will reach 100+ eventually , 46 mirage-2000 (deal on more discussed more and more all time never passed) Please check janes defence your country has ordered systems and then denied ordering them ever. Your migs are so old that they are touted flying coffins and your pilot record is such that every other day you guyz crash into a village.
Navy : Chinese new Newsconn destroyer is unmatched in the region by anyone 4 already under way 2 complete. More nuclear subs than even soviet union . Sovermenny 4 ordered 2 deployed 4 more ordered in 2000.Largest number of destroyers in region only next to russia . The best destroyer of india is delhi 3 deployed only . Chinese frigates and subs all cross numbers mr .
I hope india has not forgotten that chinese made an example of them in 62` then too india though it was too powerful but was blown away.

Also your government`s talks with french failed on scorpene and india is now making own sub . Already pakistan is operating one of the best subs in the world Agosta 90b mesma aip fitted . Canadian ratings of conventional subs .
1-German U-214
2-Viking
3-Agosta 90B mesma aip fitted not normal Agosta 90 B look what pakistanis are making them now and usa has been persuading them to think about possible export to taiwan which will be difficult considering their relationship with china .

POK, yes I did say that PA reached Srinagar and not an inch further because they were at Srinagar when IA landed there.and no one drove IA from Lahore, Russia brokered ceasefire whikle INdians were in Lahore.

Mr gaurav russia never had any interest in peace . Check with someone not so buyist . Russians always wanted to reach warm waters of karachi too bad were baton charged by pak- american coalition in afghanistan . Also i have said already india reached lahore but it was driven back by pakistan with full force not with will and love of indians :)


As for Vajpayee saying we will nuke Pak, that was in response to Pakistan standing and saying in the UN that even if India attacked with conventional weapons they will use nukes, and so that you know INdia has a no first use policy.

I have told ya that your pm said it too . you always tell one said not other!


and for the abilities of Indians, Indians own 33% of all companies in Silicon valley, India developed its own Super computer in 1991 and now exports it top Japan and Russia, if you look at the supercomputing Magazine rankings the PARAM supercomputer is ranked above your CRAY super computer.
and about cryo engine rockets being from USSR, yes they supplied two engines which are still being used at test beds as standards against which India mneasures its GSLV engines.

Mr Gaurav pleaseeeee cray xmp is the best exported computer .
Don`t tell me india is showing nerve to USA . american Blue maid is the most powerful supercomputer ever which had run the simulation programme of human mind in MIT and where it had the capability to produce 65 million ways of killing in front of the army which was using it . Comeon . You are talking about japan which also makes super computers . Yes your computers are very cheap but they not good at all . Silicon valley there are two groups chinese and indians and also to some extent japanese . Indians don`t rule silicon valley . And by the way indian association also counts pakistanis sometimes to make a number of ppl from subcontinent ask anyone in dell indians counted pakistanis among them to increase their figure to show indians are alot in this field . Pakistanis and indians live with so much harmony there i don`t know why they fight back at home.

[Vermuz]

Now before you ask i will tell you transfer of technology.
In that french joined hands with ksew and 15 companies of pakistan to feasle out what was required by pakistan and what they already had . In the end pakistanis are making every bit of this submarine in pakistan .Malaysians approached them but pakistanis said they will consider it since pakistan has relationship with australia and selling such modern equipment to that region will threaten australia.

Recently american crews on visit to pakistan visited the sub . And its word of our officers its one of the most formidable systems they have seen absolute hunter . Americans have urged pakistanis to consider for sale some to taiwan . THe pakistan sub is even different from what french have it can launch nuke strike cruise missiles and also the most dangerous command and control systems to make it force mulitplier . It also reserves right to launch cruise missiles at long range to destroy enemy destroyers.We just hope we get some deal for taiwan out from pakistanis.

One of sailors got this picture of inside.Americans walked inside pakistan made "Saad" submarine this is a personal property so please release it to other sites with care if ya ever want.
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/khalid_pakistan.jpg
Pakistanis are set to launch nuke submarine by 2003 with help with ukraine in the project .
Pakistani saad launching a sub based missile ; now considering chinese have offered longbird cruise missiles to pakistanis
for co-production and development 300/600/1250/2250 km ranges of versions and making the erk command tactics if you read something about navy ; they will wipe out your surface fleet easily . You have 16 subs pakistanis have 11 and they are gonna add 6 agosta 90b mesma aip fitted and more if need arises . and then they are introducing nuclear subs soon too and agosta can launch nuclear strike too but we will make it sure what they sell to clients is safe conventional submarine not a dangerous platform we have ties with them to make it sure.
Pakistan saad launches a missile
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/images/agosta6.jpg It was so dangerous even iranians were relishing to have a look at it .
French have excellent ties with pakistanis they called karachi and french cherbourg sister cities.
Pakistani submarine agosta-70 on visit to france.
http://www.netmarine.net/bat/smarins/lapraya/photo01.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/images/khalid1.jpg
French engineers check a sub
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/images/agosta10.jpg
Check out chinese cruise missile that will give pakistanis land attack capability on board submarines .
http://www.yh-youth.com/mvoc/pic/redbird.jpg
variants 300/600/1250/2250 km ranges and nuke warhead option.They are making frigates and will buy destroyers from china. Pakistanis also tested a pak-french project cruise missile blasting off from a pakistani submarine.French released pictures of test in karachi.Pres Musharraf is so courteous he used israelli mission in bangladesh to convey to israel that they test the missile and they are informing all important and friendly countries about this and american mission in pakistan Mrs nancy thanked pak government for the gesture.

So i think while india and russia developed the brahmos missile system pakistanis and french were also busy . French released data on the missile test.Pakistan will release first details of the test in 2003 july or august as development continues on two systems that they talked about in sanjose mercury.

1-Stand-off capacity
2-Very high lethality
3-Stealth: Delayed emission of the homing head, ultra-skimming flight at very low altitude
Target selection discrimination capacity of the homing head .
4-Penetration of defences
Firing in divergent or convergent bursts designed to arrive from all directions at the same time in order to saturate defences; terminal manoeuvres to escape short range missiles and fast firing guns; sophisticated electronic counter countermeasures,
5-Flexible tactical use
Lower workload of operators particularly due to automatic computing of the skimming flight altitude depending on the condition of the sea when approaching the target, management of the firing procedure, optimisation of trajectories - initial flight level possible for obstacle clearance, etc
6-long range anti-ship missile with "fire and Forget".
highly effective destruction capability ...




http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/13077175/UT0068970.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/13076845/FT0080147.jpg


India has launched its programme in 2002.Since india found that french subs even if they bought them will not be so capable to overshadow the agosta-90b mesma aip fitted they decided to work on Project 75 with help from french that wouldn`t prove that dangerous too mark my words mr gaurav .

Compare it with latest Russian submarine interior hahah its scrap!!!!!

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/images/kilo7.jpg

i really feel bewildered when your government acts arrogant . You should talk peace with them both of you cannot defeat eachother. The day you both understand this you will sit on one table and will act more like powers and work for peace of the region and world.

[Vermuz]

Apart from all above missile systems pakistanis are developing they tested a new cruise missile in 2001.

JANES DEFENCE

Jane's Missiles and Rockets :
Pakistan tests sea-skimming UAV

David C Isby



Pakistan has announced it has tested technology for a sea-skimming version of its National Development Complex (NDC) delta-wing Nishan Mk 2TJ target drone.

The "surface-skimming module" was announced when this turbojet-powered version of the Nishan had been displayed in 2001.

The announcement was apparently made to counter India's successful test in June of the BrahMos anti-ship missile being developed in co-operation with Russia.

It suggests that Pakistan is investing in technologies that would enable it to develop indigenous anti-ship missiles comparable to the BrahMos.

In the interim, however, the modified Nishan would allow Pakistan to develop countermeasures against surface-skimming threats.


Pakistan`s nishan system
Ps: This picture has also come in american space journal july .
I found this after much hulk on the internet ; phew!!!

http://www.pakdef.info/pdnn/news/images/nishan1.jpg

[Vermuz]

Guyz from pak`s NDC were here in san francisco .
and they told us they are developing ship borne variants of
tactical missiles which they had recently tested.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14191101/FT0132755.jpg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/12703187/FT0027741.jpg

Also checkout ukraine`s kiev internation july -2002 magazine must be available in market and libraries.

Pakistan are seriously considering ukrainian offer for purchase of Su-27 smk with french avionics instead of russian avionics.
Pakistani government has already given thum up to the deal with ukraine.
UKRAINIAN SUKHOI
http://216.110.156.31/su27/ip-ukr-su27-fairford-3.jpg
http://216.110.156.31/su27/ip-ukr-su27-fairford-6.jpg

Pakistanis pilots are already test flying them and also checking out systems on chinese and ukrainian bases .

Ukraine also sent sukhois to pakistan for tests.
http://216.110.156.31/su27/ip-ukr-su27-fairford.jpg

This all apart from meeting with french on mirage-2005 and rafale which we don`t object and meetings in us for F-18 and F-16C/D.

Ps:
Its better pakistan and india return to talking table . Indian government is brain washing ppl in some sort of self pride which has more than often proved dangerous in history!

[Vermuz]

About indian Su-30 . Usa has its own inventory of su-27smk and ubk for pilot tranining programme bought these sukhois from cash strapped russians back in 90s. Apart from huge size of plane . American pilots called it a proof russians were pathetic in electronics . viewing the best phaztron zhuk radar was not even better than apg-66 that arms the F-16 versions sold to pakistan what to talk of american apg-68 and other versions.

Pakistanis are developing their own beyond visual range missiles based on aim-120 design features . I hope you saw it they put it on display too .

I don`t see sukhoi making lot of difference . Although it was once rumoured that russians claimed su-30 can beat F-15 in close combat . okiez but why will f-15 waste time in close combat when it can fire aim-120 fire and forget hasta la veesta ce la ve .So when pakistan who put their bvr missile on display in 2002 already ; when they arm F-16 with those missiles and mirages THEN ! i hope you get .
Pakistani F-16
http://www.pakistanairforce.com/gallery/f1612_1024x768.jpg
Pakistan provided air cover to american troops caught up in fire in 2001 oct incident in afghanistan and also saved american troops in somalia the bond of friendship is strong and old .
http://www.pakistanairforce.com/gallery/f16_pakistan_800x600.jpg

Pakistan also gives naval cover to american ships in the region.

See their exercises too.

At sea aboard USS Reuben James (FFG 57) -- During a General Quarters (GQ) drill aboard the guided missile frigate, Damage Controlman 2nd Class Brian Adams assists with the firefighting gear of Pakistani Lieutenant Affan Anis from the Pakistani ship Tippu Sultan (DDG 185). Reuben James is participating in exercise ‘Inspired Siren 02,’ a U.S.-Pakistani bilateral military exercise involving surface and air forces from the two nations. The exercise is designed to strengthen the interoperability and tactical proficiency of both Pakistani and U.S. forces. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 2nd Class Aaron Ansarov. and also a gesture of thanks to Pakistan navy for providing cover to American fleet(RELEASED)

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/020924-N-4309A-030.jpg
http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/020926-N-4309A-014.jpg
http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/020925-N-4309A-007.jpg
http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/020925-N-4309A-006.jpg
http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/020925-N-4309A-004.jpg

In a recent state department conference only one man spoke against pakistan an indian journalist and whole hall laughed at that .

In Un pakistan was selected security council member from 2003 only one member voted against it in WHOLE UN india and un hall burst into laughter.

I will urge india to change its attitude . It will be good for region
good for world as whole.

[Vermuz]

Indian government is such a brain washer

They will always say Indian Lca is out .

They will not talk about S-7 of pakistan .

Okiez i will not quote pakistan i will quote japan showing the
plane .

Pakistan`s S-7 programme will come in effect in june 2003 and serial production and induction.They will make em in large numbers like india is gonna make lca in large numbers . And before you say about lca we had a detailed group on both planes in california and we concluded that both are really capable planes since both are based on european electronics and avionics. SO the indian government is releasing that lca is the best in world is all to please a domestic audience and i don`t know till when will it continue.

Pakistan`s S-7

http://forum.jczs.sina.com.cn/groups/marine/upload/1037289835_Image003.jpg

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dlzj/FC-1_019.jpg

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/AVIC_fighter_instruments.jpg

http://www.ccjs.net/1115/66666/667/667.jpg
From what impression i have got after discussions with some guyz in this business and others it will look quite similar to Us project F-20.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-20-DF-ST-86-12147.jpg
I have also discussed mission sequences which i can discuss later.


Everyone in usa knows both countries cannot outmatch eachother.!And indian government is in its world of make belief to be so arrogant . I hope they will learn soon.

Indian Lca:

[capable plane indeed]
http://bbs.china.com/images/2002-11-21/1037890318TD-1-4.jpg

Stop the pride please!!

[Vermuz]

Check out june 2001 issue of janes defence.

Chinese officials have said they developed Jh-7A for pakistan
navy strike option . And the deal is expected to reach in 2003 mid .
They will arm these Jh-7A with air launched anti ship cruise missiles . With skimming computer controlled sensors installed by germany on pakistani planes.
J-12 has a skimming capability unmatched by anyone in world . Russian chinese project since they were only ones in world to develop supersonic anti ship missiles . This will give pakistan navy strike option of 6 mins to catch up with incoming navy and destroy it at arms length while pakistan navy with submarines , destroyers and frigates advances .I suppose you buy janes right regularly to read it otherwise educated indians already say they know whats the problem .

JH-7A
http://www.mnzx.com/Military/china/JH-7/JH-7A_001D.jpg

See that cute blue yj too .
J-10
Pakistan in its 2003 and 2004 options has also listed chinese J-10 with thrust vectoring . Pakistan airforce puts it in its review for acquistion charts too.
http://www.xilu.com/xilu/military/netfriend/200205/picture/1020406024_J-10.LEGO1.JPG
http://www.warmud.com/photo/dlzj/J-10_066.jpg

China already has shown protracted plans for xinhua
http://bbs2.tom.com/army/upload_img/1/200211/pic_1037257739.jpg
I hope you are getting me .Chinese premier on visit to pakistan said pakistan will be first country china will offer stealth when it introduces it in form of J-12 .

[Vermuz]

Kindly tell me one project where pakistan and india

are not running for top slot . I will be happy to help thankz!

[Mediocrates]

All of that is interesting but neither PRC nor India has demonstrated much ability to mass manufacture advanced aricraft or tanks. They tend instead to successfully get 'prototype' programs out the door. More often what they end up doing is manufacturing someone else's technology under licence and upgrading it.

So while we might see a few interesting progs come to light they have not, up to now had any lifecycle durability. Moreover they don't get parts, training or use-doctrine ramped up. For arab countries this translates to 'weapons based warfare' which sounds like the right thing to do but it's really wrong. They leave out all the components of modern warfigthing and rely instead on 'the perfect weapon device'. One which they little training, sustainability of flexible use.

I'd recommend for people who follow this kind of thing to read the CSIS reports (Anthony H. Cordesman) on Middle East States conventional military parity and related subjects. http://csis.org/

[Vermuz]

China , India and Pakistan are in the race .


THe problem with asian terrain is a heavy machine cannot work there . Taiwanese tested american abram couldn`t work , south koreans tested it and then had to work with others . Even pakistan got m1a1 abram prototypes but they failed in that terrain so it was imperative these countries developed their own tanks.


China was serious about land war dominance with taiwan so they developed T-98,T-98GAI.The T-98Gai boasts most rough and tough armour yet to be put on an mbt . An experimental reactive depleted uranium armour coupled with laser self defense system .
And automatic gps guided tracking that gives it off shoot time to take on many targets at a time something found only in tanks like m1a2 , leclerc , german stryv 122 and israelli merkava 4 and pakistani khalid which ofcourse has french leclerc transfer of technology aboard tracking system one of the best in world. But chinese have this laser self defense system that was developed by soviets that even americans wanted to buy for abram .Its something unique.
T-98C IN EXERCISE
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/hot1002004.jpg
T-98 GAI
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/T-98Kai_with_composite_armor.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/possible_T-98Kai.jpg
ZTZ-98
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/possible_T-98Kai-_4.jpg

Since chinese will be employing the new reduga gps system being developed by china they are employing both the russian glonass and chinese gps systems.
http://www.war-sky.com/lb5000/usr/4/4_596.jpg
=================
India was very quick with decision hats off to their defense management in face of the arjun failure they revitalised the tank Ex and made quite a powerful main battle tank. It is expected a dangerous main battle tank.They have put on the czech redex armour that russians had developed for their mbts coupled with electronics from french and russians.Automatic tracking , gps support and FCS firing system for contemplated mode of fire.

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/TankEX_05_06.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/tank-ex_cs5.jpg
==================

In the recent visit to pakistan by US centcom Gen tommy franks he was given an action profile of pakistan`s al-khalid . He was of the view "very impressive !" the french called it one the best main battle tanks in the world . Pakistani main battle tank uses same target tracking system as leclerc ; automatic tracking system coupled with subsystems to validate with gps guide and then locking on to the target while on the move at high speeds .
It then wards of a laser threat warning system similar to what russians had planned to develop but couldn`t deploy as well
as look and shoot subtics missiles for low flying targets and armour piercing laser guided missiles coupled with high power of drag.Impressive indeed !Saudis were considering it.
Depleted uranium shells firing quick mobility very good fighting machine.

http://anyboard.net/plaboard/uploads/color_lcd_mfd.jpg
PAKISTANIS GIVE LIVE DEMONSTRATION OF AL-KHALID
http://www.ciar.org/~ttk/mbt/al-khalid04.jpg
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango/type-90-china_series/al-khalid-production/alkhalid_004.jpg

US - PAKISTAN EXERCISES PAKISTANI KHALID
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango/type-90-china_series/al-khalid-production/alkhalid_006.jpg

Pakistanis offered saudia arabia the tank but since pakistanis have decided to put on depleted uranium armour the export version will not have it for pakistan`s own reasons i guess otherwise they could have pocketed quite alot of bucks but they didn`t agree to put on du armour on export variant.
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango/type-90-china_series/al-khalid-prototype/alkhalidp_001.jpg

[Vermuz]

Chinese are all set to introduce T-98 depleted uranium armour

http://www.hkads.com/lb5000/non-cgi/usr/56/56_105_1.jpg


They also are making T-88 like grass haha!

http://fbc.52web.net/fbc01/upfile/1113231332_29.jpg

T-88C

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dlzc/TK-96_004.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/tank1-50th.jpg

[Vermuz]

One thing makes me laugh . Even though pakistan and china have same love relationship as india and russia.

But chinese are very very careful . From the day americans have started exercises in pakistan one of many bases in pakistan and getting trained for iraq on pasni base in pakistan very secretive . Chinese have deployed their global satellite tracking system they wanna see if usa doesn`t use pakistani bases to deploy same U-2 which did expionage on USSR . Pakistan is tight lipped on the issue !!They ought to be careful pakistan has lots and lots of bases .My buddy in 101 Airborne was tellin me we are asking pakistanis to gain access to CIS states (oil) :)
Also look on iran and other countries of interest and pakistan is the safest base to all the stuff we did during cold war.

A pakistani soldier at bagram afghanistan is alert while afghans are being lined up

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14263542/UT0121613.jpg

Chinese GLOBAL SATELLITE SYSTEM linked to russian glonass and chinese reduga

http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/uploads/alladin1030359550Dscf0072.jpg

American officers discuss a thing with pakistani officer at pasni base.
==============
MILITARY PICS
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/images/pasni_020227-m-1586c-001.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/images/pasni_020227-m-1586c-010.jpg

enjoy \../

[Vermuz]

Some of guyz in special ops i know said there is no place you
can know better how to fight than pakistan . It is like real live exercises in their do or die situations.

PAKISTANI AND AMERICAN TROOPS ON A SEARCH AND DESTROY MISSION

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14299002/FT0141861.jpg

A pak soldier handles a missile.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/12311861/UT0004275.jpg

A MOCK SCUD-B PUT IN PLACE TO IMMEDIATELY ATTACK IT BEFORE IT IS LAUNCHED

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/13182009/UT0090672.jpg

PAKISTANIS BRING IN ARMOUR TO BRING SOME TASTE. ITS A T-85 IIAP WITH FRENCH WESTON SIMFIRE-2 GPS SYPPORT .
http://www.warmud.com/photo/dlzc/TK-88B_025.jpg



NEED MORE STUFF ON PAKISTAN - USA EXERCISES .

[Vermuz]

American troops present to pakistani troops same poem that an american soldier wrote on

pakistani and american troops when pakistan army saved american troops caught up in fight in somalia

http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/abu.jpg

I have some pictures of that ; i am just posting one if anyone wants more i will post em.

PAKISTANI STADIUM [american troops being treated]
http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/aak.jpg

[Vermuz]

Pakistanis using one of the most modern main battle tanks in the world T-84 aka UD .
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-numbers-su/t-80_series/z-pakistan/pak-t80ud_002.jpg
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-numbers-su/t-80_series/z-skorea/skorea-t80_002.jpg

By the way pakistanis also went for Kls armour extension semantics that they wanted more armour plattings on the T-84 they bought and the eventual product was then given french touch with weston and doyomai add ons; they are using them in exercises with americans too but i am trying to get a picture of that.
Pakistani parade
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/Pakistan/vehicules_lourds/T-80U/T-80U_Pakistan_03.jpg

[B]American troops present to pakistani troops same poem that an american soldier wrote on

pakistani and american troops when pakistan army saved american troops caught up in fight in somalia

http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/abu.jpg

I have some pictures of that ; i am just posting one if anyone wants more i will post em.

PAKISTANI STADIUM [american troops being treated]
http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/aak.jpg

[Vermuz]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Pakistanis using one of the most modern main battle tanks in the world T-84 aka UD .
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-numbers-su/t-80_series/z-pakistan/pak-t80ud_002.jpg
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango-numbers-su/t-80_series/z-skorea/skorea-t80_002.jpg

By the way pakistanis also went for Kls armour extension semantics that they wanted more armour plattings on the T-84 they bought and the eventual product was then given french touch with weston and doyomai add ons; they are using them in exercises with americans too but i am trying to get a picture of that.
Pakistani parade
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/Pakistan/vehicules_lourds/T-80U/T-80U_Pakistan_03.jpg

[B]American troops present to pakistani troops same poem that an american soldier wrote on

pakistani and american troops when pakistan army saved american troops caught up in fight in somalia

http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/abu.jpg

I have some pictures of that ; i am just posting one if anyone wants more i will post em.

PAKISTANI STADIUM [american troops being treated]
http://ethan.screenteam.org/bhd93/community/gallery/albums/somaliapictures/aak.jpg

IF YOU NEED MORE STUFF LET ME KNOW I GOT PLENTY!!

[Vermuz]

PAKISTANI GUYZ IN ACTION


http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_3.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_11.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_4.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_5.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_6.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_7.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_8.jpg
http://www.specwarnet.com/world/pak_ssg_9.jpg


There is a guy i know from kansas in us army he said when come from such training you feel really confident that we will be able to pull something in the real thingi too!

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Yes, China is the largest Aid recepient nation in the world (Source: WB, IMF), and you talk as if you are the one incharge of covert US operations to help Pakistan. YOu would do better to read up on stuff you say.

Mr Gaurav largest aid recipient is north korea please!! check it why do you go to sites go to real places find out ; go to state department reserves . Comeon internet is all .


There are no F18,s or even sqat except the C 130's planned for Pakistan anywhere in the near future, go to the US congress website and look at Export requests.

I didn`t say usa has said it . i said check JANES DEFENCE and you will find what pakistan air chief has asked usa . F-16C/D, F-18A by the way pakistan has rights on kuwaiti F-18D since they gave em the authority . However we in us are urging pakistanis to be very careful with that.

and about Pn, you say China will come to help, go do any search you like to and you will come up with the result that even though most people credit China with a formidable army, no one credits its AF with being more powerful than the IAF and its navy with bein more powerful than IN (hint: go to any CHinese defence forum or do your own search).


Oh my GOd .

China : 200+ Su-27 by 2004 , 132 Su-30Mkk , 300 J-10 by 2004
300 S-7 with european systems . Although F-7 are but china has largest airforce in the world . Deal on Su-33 in making .
80 Su-34 to be signed when mr putin visits china this time. Nuclear capable Q-5 . Stealth J-12 programme in full swing.
India : Only impressive 40 Su-30 will reach 100+ eventually , 46 mirage-2000 (deal on more discussed more and more all time never passed) Please check janes defence your country has ordered systems and then denied ordering them ever. Your migs are so old that they are touted flying coffins and your pilot record is such that every other day you guyz crash into a village.
Navy : Chinese new Newsconn destroyer is unmatched in the region by anyone 4 already under way 2 complete. More nuclear subs than even soviet union . Sovermenny 4 ordered 2 deployed 4 more ordered in 2000.Largest number of destroyers in region only next to russia . The best destroyer of india is delhi 3 deployed only . Chinese frigates and subs all cross numbers mr .
I hope india has not forgotten that chinese made an example of them in 62` then too india though it was too powerful but was blown away.

Also your government`s talks with french failed on scorpene and india is now making own sub . Already pakistan is operating one of the best subs in the world Agosta 90b mesma aip fitted . Canadian ratings of conventional subs .
1-German U-214
2-Viking
3-Agosta 90B mesma aip fitted not normal Agosta 90 B look what pakistanis are making them now and usa has been persuading them to think about possible export to taiwan which will be difficult considering their relationship with china .

POK, yes I did say that PA reached Srinagar and not an inch further because they were at Srinagar when IA landed there.and no one drove IA from Lahore, Russia brokered ceasefire whikle INdians were in Lahore.

Mr gaurav russia never had any interest in peace . Check with someone not so buyist . Russians always wanted to reach warm waters of karachi too bad were baton charged by pak- american coalition in afghanistan . Also i have said already india reached lahore but it was driven back by pakistan with full force not with will and love of indians :)


As for Vajpayee saying we will nuke Pak, that was in response to Pakistan standing and saying in the UN that even if India attacked with conventional weapons they will use nukes, and so that you know INdia has a no first use policy.

I have told ya that your pm said it too . you always tell one said not other!


and for the abilities of Indians, Indians own 33% of all companies in Silicon valley, India developed its own Super computer in 1991 and now exports it top Japan and Russia, if you look at the supercomputing Magazine rankings the PARAM supercomputer is ranked above your CRAY super computer.
and about cryo engine rockets being from USSR, yes they supplied two engines which are still being used at test beds as standards against which India mneasures its GSLV engines.

Mr Gaurav pleaseeeee cray xmp is the best exported computer .
Don`t tell me india is showing nerve to USA . american Blue maid is the most powerful supercomputer ever which had run the simulation programme of human mind in MIT and where it had the capability to produce 65 million ways of killing in front of the army which was using it . Comeon . You are talking about japan which also makes super computers . Yes your computers are very cheap but they not good at all . Silicon valley there are two groups chinese and indians and also to some extent japanese . Indians don`t rule silicon valley . And by the way indian association also counts pakistanis sometimes to make a number of ppl from subcontinent ask anyone in dell indians counted pakistanis among them to increase their figure to show indians are alot in this field . Pakistanis and indians live with so much harmony there i don`t know why they fight back at home.

Mr Vermuz,

trusting the state department website over global organizations such as IMF and WB is useless, State Departmwnt websies reflect US government policies and can be fudged but not IMG and WB, because thery are accountable to too many nations.

As for China making an example of Indian in 1962, no one ever denied that, but India was not more powerful than the Chineses then as you claim. THe Chinese had overwhelming superiority in Land forces based in the Himalayas.

And as for Indians counting Pakistanis as Indians, there is no rganization in the US (Indian) that counts Pakistanis as Indians.

As for the Indian Super Comp. we do export to Japan and Russia and that's what counts they consider it to be good enough to replace the CRAY with it.

As for Our PM saying about nuking Pak, it is totally different than saying we will nuke you first, if Pakistan uses nukes first we would obviously use our Nukes but never first. There is a difference between First Use and Retaliatory use.

I can see that you would not see the Indian military superiority over Pakistan, so I am not going to counter argue on those, but I will say this:

1) Pak and UKraine have no nuke submarine deal, india has already operated Nuke submarines INS Chakra, and has deals with Russia to lease two more.
2) US has already refused to give Pak F-16's
3) T-90 is the best Tank in the Sub continent and you can get plenty of Info on it from FAS.org
4) India-France Scorpene deal is still on.

Wait, till next week when the Russian President is visiting INdia and you will get full info on India's conventional superiority on Pak

[christian]

True. China has no so good friendship with India.

However, in many ways, we are redeveloping our relationship.
The last war between china and india is at 1963. Consider that, it was a long half of the century ago.

Nowadays, no one wants to fight in China,because it is not a "MAOIST" state. Every one is making money at the economic boom. Consider our GDP is 7 % every consecutive year.

Communism only exists in name, not the soul. The soul of china is capitalist. The president of China further confirm this in his doctrine called "three representative theory".

Although, the wealth is not equally shared among the population. The elites at the top of the communist regime wants to make money, but it is not through weapon industry. Unlike, US and UK are hungry for war, to stimulate growth in the weapon industry sector.

Besides, East india and China are working on friendship to friendship base. Silicon project in shanghai are participated by eastern indian expertise. Eastern Indian experts are given a working visa. Many computer corporation in china is hiring eastern indian, since the silicon valley is firing.


Vermuz,

During the peak of the india and pakistanian crisis, why is chinese representative been sent to Pakistian for?

We simply said we will support you, but not the war. Any act of war will affect the long term "economic "development at our eastern border. Any war with India and Pakistan will devastate the central asia economic development. The silk road dream will be broken.

This is called the domino "money" theory. Europe is the best example. Money can buy friendship in international politics.

Some eastern indian and Pakistinian would agree to that.
Although, the both sides are playing patriotism. At the end of the day, it is just a show biz and election. The hard truth reality is the economic development .

[GauravS]

Originally posted by christian
True. China has no so good friendship with India.

However, in many ways, we are redeveloping our relationship.
The last war between china and india is at 1963. Consider that, it was a long half of the century ago.

Nowadays, no one wants to fight in China,because it is not a "MAOIST" state. Every one is making money at the economic boom. Consider our GDP is 7 % every consecutive year.

Communism only exists in name, not the soul. The soul of china is capitalist. The president of China further confirm this in his doctrine called "three representative theory".

Although, the wealth is not equally shared among the population. The elites at the top of the communist regime wants to make money, but it is not through weapon industry. Unlike, US and UK are hungry for war, to stimulate growth in the weapon industry sector.

Besides, East india and China are working on friendship to friendship base. Silicon project in shanghai are participated by eastern indian expertise. Eastern Indian experts are given a working visa. Many computer corporation in china is hiring eastern indian, since the silicon valley is firing.


Vermuz,

During the peak of the india and pakistanian crisis, why is chinese representative been sent to Pakistian for?

We simply said we will support you, but not the war. Any act of war will affect the long term "economic "development at our eastern border. Any war with India and Pakistan will devastate the central asia economic development. The silk road dream will be broken.

This is called the domino "money" theory. Europe is the best example. Money can buy friendship in international politics.

Some eastern indian and Pakistinian would agree to that.
Although, the both sides are playing patriotism. At the end of the day, it is just a show biz and election. The hard truth reality is the economic development .

Yes, India and China are working hard to redefine their relationship, Indian Software companies are setting up bases in china and Chinese electronics companies are keen to do so in INdia. China's pakistan relation is the only problem that is left and we are working on resolving that too, so that both of us can develop togather.

[Vermuz]

I can see that you would not see the Indian military superiority over Pakistan, so I am not going to counter argue on those, but I will say this:

1) Pak and UKraine have no nuke submarine deal, india has already operated Nuke submarines INS Chakra, and has deals with Russia to lease two more.

Pakistan and france are involved in submarine nuclearization and pakistan and ukraine are involved in frigate project .
I told ya!

2) US has already refused to give Pak F-16's

usa had offered F-16A/B which pakistan refused to accept ; Usa has not said no ; but usa has said it will need sometime .

3) T-90 is the best Tank in the Sub continent and you can get plenty of Info on it from FAS.org

hhahaa Fas . Well let me just tell you your government report in which they have themselves said that T-90 was a failure in tests and ukraine was being consulted for T-80Ud. India released 21 reports on the failure for your help iam just givin one of em here.Search here for news on that
www.blonnet.com too
Ukraine government releases notes on how indian government approached ukraine after failure of T-90

http://www.niss.gov.ua/koi/cacds/archivee/pub11.htm

Indian Commision report on T-90
-90 Main Battle Tank (Quantity: 310)

Isn't it true that the Russians do not manufacture 1,000 horsepower engines, that all the T-90s that were sent for trial failed the endurance test due to overheating and that they had engines of only 840 horsepower?
Isn't it true that the Tank is not in service even in Russia? That armaments or munitions brought by any country should be in use in the country of their origin is a requirement that is primary to any inter-country arms deal.



4) India-France Scorpene deal is still on.

Netmarine france has itself said india is not showing interest anymore however wants french help in project 75 .
ALSO even if india buys them ; india will not get an edge over mesma aip fitted specialy configured agosta . So the deal will be more or less money wash.


As for china - pakistan NEXUS
============================================
Pakistan never asked china for help it itself has enough
capability to do things trust me .
And to make a point on pakistan - china cooperation.Infact us
military circles believe beijing might want pakistan`s help against
taiwan .In all conflicts pakistan never asked beijing for any sort of help and doesn`t stand for asking in future too!However china showered support for pakistan in latest situation.openly declaring its policy!
============================================
Here was what chinese foreign ministry released statement on
that.


Jan 10 , 2001) Diplomatic sources from Beijing believe that India's intent of massing troops along the border is to deter Pakistan, and there is little likeliness that a large-scale war will break out.

Sources from the Pakistani diplomatic circle told Kanwa that Islamabad had obtained the following promises from Beijing: Beijing hopes that there will be no war in the future 50 years and therefore will focus on building up its overall national strength. Consequently, Beijing expects Pakistan not to be involved in wars either but to divert its major attention on economic construction with help from major powers like China and Usa. If Pakistan is invaded, Beijing will firmly stand on the side of Islamabad.

This means that in the latest critical Pakistan-India situation, Beijing hopes Pakistan will not initiate any assault. Meanwhile, Beijing believes that India is unlikely to launch attacks on Pakistan. Nevertheless, in the event that India first attacks Pakistan, Beijing will give full political and military support to the latter. (Kanwa News for full story, see Kanwa Jan 10 Issue)

============================================
A friend of mine who is a chinese and lives in usa often speaks on chinese political environment once said here in a seminar .
China can never leave pakistan due to its importance to china;
however china as a responsible nation wants good ties with neighbours including india . India objects to our relationship with pakistan .If india tries to understand china`s needs we can work out a good relationship .
============================================
============================================


CE LA VE!!! need more stuff

[Vermuz]

About T-90s Russian official himself says instead of the modern approach of T-80 ; T-90S is based on T-72S .Even russian army never went for the tank . They decided to go for T-72M1 and T-80 earlier versions.I can even explain problems with facts of armour if you want.





On its part pakistan has introduced its two new programmes.

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/TankFormation%20copy.jpg

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/Al_khalid_Mush_HIT.jpg

Khalid[EXPORT VERSION]
http://www.warmud.com/photo/xwgw/xw-0186.jpg

Zarrar
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango/type-59_series/al-zarrar/alzarrar_001.jpg
===
Now is a description of zarrar programme. They have put on Hd type reactive armour on this thing.The spinal section gives it capability to ward of heat shells .Boasting a speed of more than 70 ks on rough terrain they have given the mobility it needs to put in the Gps advantage . While it tracks all targets while on move it locks and with a power loading shooting basis of very small interval it picks a target and fires on it moving on to the next target.screening and thermal insulation of power pack top deck added give it added protection.The trenhness of 2.85 m will further add to it. While on the move it can pick targets like helicopters with 1k13 missile it fires from its turret and ahead the smoothbore Kba-3 gun is in action .THe pkt coaxial gun gattling machine gun gives it further cover .29 Gradient further enhances survival in tough action.The multilayer armour gives it anti projectile safety "THUMS UP!!" and the 5td engine provides very good powerpack . Ofcourse nuclear chemical biological warfare proof tech . Both pakistan and india have been building an armada of chemical , bio and nuclear weapons.
Pakistanis practise chemcial bio war.
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/puma-b%20copy.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/pakcom2a.gif
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/pakcommandosJumpHele.jpg

I have done lot of work on armour platting effectiveness in different papers . If ya want that i can post it too!

If anyone wants to know where chinese have reached i will be happy to tell ya that ; Chinese have put russians in background to take on usa (directly!) in coming years.Their programmes are countless too .phewww !!! like them. Pakistan on the other hand still wants more ties with its european friends like france and germany so there is a difference. However chinese president is all set to visit pakistan next year to sign various strategic deals so

[Vermuz]

About T-90s Russian official himself says instead of the modern approach of T-80 ; T-90S is based on T-72S .Even russian army never went for the tank . They decided to go for T-72M1 and T-80 earlier versions.I can even explain problems with facts of armour if you want.





On its part pakistan has introduced its two new programmes.

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/TankFormation%20copy.jpg

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/Al_khalid_Mush_HIT.jpg

Khalid[EXPORT VERSION]
http://www.warmud.com/photo/xwgw/xw-0186.jpg

Zarrar
http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/tango/type-59_series/al-zarrar/alzarrar_001.jpg
===
Now is a description of zarrar programme. They have put on Hd type reactive armour on this thing.The spinal section gives it capability to ward of heat shells .Boasting a speed of more than 70 ks on rough terrain they have given the mobility it needs to put in the Gps advantage . While it tracks all targets while on move it locks and with a power loading shooting basis of very small interval it picks a target and fires on it moving on to the next target.screening and thermal insulation of power pack top deck added give it added protection.The trenhness of 2.85 m will further add to it. While on the move it can pick targets like helicopters with 1k13 missile it fires from its turret and ahead the smoothbore Kba-3 gun is in action .THe pkt coaxial gun gattling machine gun gives it further cover .29 Gradient further enhances survival in tough action.The multilayer armour gives it anti projectile safety "THUMS UP!!" and the 5td engine provides very good powerpack . Ofcourse nuclear chemical biological warfare proof tech . Both pakistan and india have been building an armada of chemical , bio and nuclear weapons.
Pakistanis practise chemcial bio war.
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/puma-b%20copy.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/pakcom2a.gif
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Army_Pics/pakcommandosJumpHele.jpg

China has already introduced dragon land warrior infantry gear
the gear is connected to a main satellite receiver the whole
battlefield is in the camera of the soldier and the soldiers can
exchange messages by speaking and typing the screens connected to their helmets everything behind a target and underneath is visible to the soldier in extreme threat environments in more than 18 modes of display basically something like us land warrior system . System will be introduced in pakistan army in coming times.Meeting requirements of soldier of the future requirements


http://artclub.csuhayward.edu/CDF-Forum/uploads/post-4-23103-digitalsoldiers.jpg
http://artclub.csuhayward.edu/CDF-Forum/uploads/post-4-22659-wtfrthosethings.jpg
http://artclub.csuhayward.edu/CDF-Forum/uploads/post-4-22412-_PLADigitalizedSoldier.jpg


Pakistanis released their electronic/chemical/biological warfare exercises data sometimes back. But not the whole of it very few details much was clandestine.
====================================
PAKISTANI EXERCISES
http://www.thispage.isgreat.tv/31.jpg
http://www.thispage.isgreat.tv/32.jpg
http://www.thispage.isgreat.tv/34.jpg
http://www.thispage.isgreat.tv/35.jpg
====================================
I have done lot of work on armour platting effectiveness in different papers . If ya want that i can post it too!

If anyone wants to know where chinese have reached i will be happy to tell ya that ; Chinese have put russians in background to take on usa (directly!) in coming years.Their programmes are countless too .phewww !!! like them. Pakistan on the other hand still wants more ties with its european friends like france and germany so there is a difference. However chinese president is all set to visit pakistan next year to sign various strategic deals so

[GauravS]

Vermuz,

Here is a news item in Defencenews (todays) saying 6 more subs for India from France

http://www.defensenews.com/home.php (Scorpene)

I do not subscribe, but I got it from another forum,

and the T-90 report you gave is very old and the major defeciencies i.e. HP, powerplant have been resolved.

France and Pakistan are not involved in any Submarine nuclearization deal ( assuming you mean a nuclear powered one)

and according to FAS (no need to laugh, it only shows your disdain for respectable websites)
Protective clothing and equipment are designed and manufactured amongst other places at the Defence Materials and Stores Research and Development Establishment at Kanpur. India has developed five types of protective systems and equipment for its troops as a safeguard against nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) hazards. The development of all five types of protective systems and equipment has been completed and their induction into the service has beenformally approved. The five types of protective systems and equipment are: NBC individual protective equipment, NBC collective protection system, NBC medical protection equipment, NBC detection equipment and the NBC decontamination system
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/cw/ (NBC clothing)

and for your kind information, all exercises India has carried out in the last 10 years have been conducted according to a NBC environment, and India has already stopped its chem. weapons program (INdia was the first signatory to the Chemical weapons convention)

and you are getting so many pics of pak SSG simply because they release their photographs, India does not release extensive photograph galleries of Indian SSG.

and I noticed you used Pakdef links, so you must know that not even people at pakdef make the claim of withstanding India and therefore they almost always end up saying we will nuke you.

as for Scorpene, here is a link which clearly states that Scorpene has MESMA AIP engines

http://www.euronaval-show.com/gican/pdf/001120.pdf (Scorpene)

[Vermuz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GauravS
[B]Vermuz,

Here is a news item in Defencenews (todays) saying 6 more subs for India from France

http://www.defensenews.com/home.php (Scorpene)

I do not subscribe, but I got it from another forum,

and the T-90 report you gave is very old and the major defeciencies i.e. HP, powerplant have been resolved.
============================================

JUST SURPRISED how misinformed indian public has been the indian commission report is of july 2002 AND khalid has not been called by pakistan BUT usa/france/germany and south africa as one of the best tanks in the world . Turkey has already sent 3 delegations to see the tank for future procurement!!


France and Pakistan are not involved in any Submarine nuclearization deal ( assuming you mean a nuclear powered one)
============================================
I MEAN:
1-It can be converted to nuclear power
2-It can launch nuke strike

check out french netmarine ; then also check out Kes-80 programme of a nuke plant being developed for pakistan`s submarines .It will arm them .:) Now you want briefing on that i will give that too. By the way its not costly magazine costs around 34 bucks thats all! Gaurav

FAS hhah!! it was not updated in yearssss . A better site is global securities still not updated often though!

and for your kind information, all exercises India has carried out in the last 10 years have been conducted according to a NBC environment, and India has already stopped its chem. weapons program (INdia was the first signatory to the Chemical weapons convention)

Iam asking about electronic , chemical , bio warfare exercises i have read military for years gaurav . India didn`t have them because even russian never made them to sell to india is another issue .

and you are getting so many pics of pak SSG simply because they release their photographs, India does not release extensive photograph galleries of Indian SSG.

Oh no ! I will give you pictures of indian blackcats too if you want everything . pakistan has much more secrecy than india . Tell me i will bring pics here whenever ya ask . Pakistan`s pics are very hard to find because they don`t like to share it with public.


and I noticed you used Pakdef links, so you must know that not even people at pakdef make the claim of withstanding India and therefore they almost always end up saying we will nuke you.


Never been there gaurav . I just took pics from www.pakistanidefence.com i don`t talk on forums ecetera to pakistanis i don`t know what they think because most often kids come on forums and they don`t know anything . Iam here because i see most of ppl here are kinda mature so i can even explain mil strategy to u of usa , pakistan any country you ask. gaurav .

I said scorpene will be equal to agosta-90B mesma aip fitted not better than that as indian government would have wanted
check my words up there :)

Gaurav i have nothing against you because it is not your fault since you are an educated guy i will like you to know that your government makes indian ppl think as if pakistan is nothing but it was the word of american gen Rob thomas once in Gulf war that pakistan is a hidden power ; a huge military power with head in sand :) ppl don`t know about it.

I will like you to see BBC Prime documentary on Gulf war 1 on thursday they show footage of pakistan and french army attacking iraqi suppies in Gulf war with tanks and missiles the mere firepower and tactics give you an idea of their methods .
See it and enjoy it after all guru pande lal of india once said pakistan and india will unite one day and the whole world will see a new morning . I have heard his prophecies were never wrong.
Lets hope for the best.
Let me show you one more thing the Gps receivers that us army will use this time in Gulf war are already made in pakistan something you will have never known . Pakistan exported some to usa too after joint development with usa.
They also use gps mode transmission on their main battle
tanks.
http://paknews.com/entertainment/23march/tank2.jpg

These are made in pakistan aero complex and exported to nato countries . You can imagine the standard of pakistan then whose army has already ordered 18000 sets .
http://www.awc.com.pk/path.jpg
http://www.awc.com.pk/av-12.jpg

Pakistanis show their depleted uranium armour main battle tank in a show of power to visiting nato generals.
http://paknews.com/images/picofday/2002/09/210921d.jpg

About F-18 and F-16C/D i don`t say that usa will refuse pakistan why . Pakistan`s military has already sepcified billions of dollars of deals with france . Now their choices Mirage-2005/Rafale and J-10 developed by china as an equivalent .

US REPORT ON J-10

J-10 is equal to US F-18 modern versions . But with its manueverability it can shoot it down too but ofcourse then comes pilot quality and american pilots are the best in the world second in line come israellis and pakistanis that all know.Us will never annoy the relationship and ofcourse when pakistan buys aircraft with same capability from other source usa which already has not the same say on pakistan as it had years ago will lose that too .
Hope you get it Gaurav .
Look at J-10

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/User_files/3d02e24c05dc17df.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/pv-1003d.jpg


For you Gaurav sit back and enjoy

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0203.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0173.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0365.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0149.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0201.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0176.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0144.jpg

Believe me 95% of pakistan and indian community in usa want reunification . Think about that time too!

If you need any info on pak-ind-china i will be happy to help!Gaurav

Have a nice day gentlemen!

[Mediocrates]

What are you getting at? I would like an analysis of C4I, command hierarchy, the qualitative advantage of the NCO corps, the ability to synthesize a field in depth, the ability to strike from a distance, survivability, sustainability and an overall discussion of doctrine. Those are the things that make a modern army successful, not weapons. Iraq had a large inventory of modern weapons too, so? They didn't know about warfighting.

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GauravS
[B]Vermuz,

Here is a news item in Defencenews (todays) saying 6 more subs for India from France

http://www.defensenews.com/home.php (Scorpene)

I do not subscribe, but I got it from another forum,

and the T-90 report you gave is very old and the major defeciencies i.e. HP, powerplant have been resolved.
============================================

JUST SURPRISED how misinformed indian public has been the indian commission report is of july 2002 AND khalid has not been called by pakistan BUT usa/france/germany and south africa as one of the best tanks in the world . Turkey has already sent 3 delegations to see the tank for future procurement!!


France and Pakistan are not involved in any Submarine nuclearization deal ( assuming you mean a nuclear powered one)
============================================
I MEAN:
1-It can be converted to nuclear power
2-It can launch nuke strike

check out french netmarine ; then also check out Kes-80 programme of a nuke plant being developed for pakistan`s submarines .It will arm them .:) Now you want briefing on that i will give that too. By the way its not costly magazine costs around 34 bucks thats all! Gaurav

FAS hhah!! it was not updated in yearssss . A better site is global securities still not updated often though!

and for your kind information, all exercises India has carried out in the last 10 years have been conducted according to a NBC environment, and India has already stopped its chem. weapons program (INdia was the first signatory to the Chemical weapons convention)

Iam asking about electronic , chemical , bio warfare exercises i have read military for years gaurav . India didn`t have them because even russian never made them to sell to india is another issue .

and you are getting so many pics of pak SSG simply because they release their photographs, India does not release extensive photograph galleries of Indian SSG.

Oh no ! I will give you pictures of indian blackcats too if you want everything . pakistan has much more secrecy than india . Tell me i will bring pics here whenever ya ask . Pakistan`s pics are very hard to find because they don`t like to share it with public.


and I noticed you used Pakdef links, so you must know that not even people at pakdef make the claim of withstanding India and therefore they almost always end up saying we will nuke you.


Never been there gaurav . I just took pics from www.pakistanidefence.com i don`t talk on forums ecetera to pakistanis i don`t know what they think because most often kids come on forums and they don`t know anything . Iam here because i see most of ppl here are kinda mature so i can even explain mil strategy to u of usa , pakistan any country you ask. gaurav .

I said scorpene will be equal to agosta-90B mesma aip fitted not better than that as indian government would have wanted
check my words up there :)

Gaurav i have nothing against you because it is not your fault since you are an educated guy i will like you to know that your government makes indian ppl think as if pakistan is nothing but it was the word of american gen Rob thomas once in Gulf war that pakistan is a hidden power ; a huge military power with head in sand :) ppl don`t know about it.

I will like you to see BBC Prime documentary on Gulf war 1 on thursday they show footage of pakistan and french army attacking iraqi suppies in Gulf war with tanks and missiles the mere firepower and tactics give you an idea of their methods .
See it and enjoy it after all guru pande lal of india once said pakistan and india will unite one day and the whole world will see a new morning . I have heard his prophecies were never wrong.
Lets hope for the best.
Let me show you one more thing the Gps receivers that us army will use this time in Gulf war are already made in pakistan something you will have never known . Pakistan exported some to usa too after joint development with usa.
They also use gps mode transmission on their main battle
tanks.
http://paknews.com/entertainment/23march/tank2.jpg

These are made in pakistan aero complex and exported to nato countries . You can imagine the standard of pakistan then whose army has already ordered 18000 sets .
http://www.awc.com.pk/path.jpg
http://www.awc.com.pk/av-12.jpg

Pakistanis show their depleted uranium armour main battle tank in a show of power to visiting nato generals.
http://paknews.com/images/picofday/2002/09/210921d.jpg

About F-18 and F-16C/D i don`t say that usa will refuse pakistan why . Pakistan`s military has already sepcified billions of dollars of deals with france . Now their choices Mirage-2005/Rafale and J-10 developed by china as an equivalent .

US REPORT ON J-10

J-10 is equal to US F-18 modern versions . But with its manueverability it can shoot it down too but ofcourse then comes pilot quality and american pilots are the best in the world second in line come israellis and pakistanis that all know.Us will never annoy the relationship and ofcourse when pakistan buys aircraft with same capability from other source usa which already has not the same say on pakistan as it had years ago will lose that too .
Hope you get it Gaurav .
Look at J-10

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/User_files/3d02e24c05dc17df.jpg
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/pv-1003d.jpg


For you Gaurav sit back and enjoy

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0203.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0173.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0365.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0149.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0201.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0176.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0144.jpg

Believe me 95% of pakistan and indian community in usa want reunification . Think about that time too!

If you need any info on pak-ind-china i will be happy to help!Gaurav

Have a nice day gentlemen!

Vermuz,

What electronic, chem, bio, nuke exercises, India has performed all its exercises in an NBC environment for the last 10 years, and I really do not know what you mean by electronic; if you mean computer hacking and the stuff, India has a larger and much more trained IT taskforce than Pakistan. and yes about that GPS receiver India has been making GPS receivers for at least 10 years now.

and I guess only time will tell you that all Pakistan does is dream that it will have good weapons. Weapons need cash and Pakistan has didly squat of it. If you'll say Foreign reserves of Pak. are growing that's only because of IMF loans and loan breathers that the US gave Pakistan.

About FAS, even its not updated (and that's only after John Pike left FAS) the stuff that's already written about India is still true.

and about Pak. using the US GPS nodes in its tanks, then I would wish the Pakistanis best of luck in its use (seems they have not learned their lesson of not trusting the US as a stable technology provider).
About the DU armor on Al-Khalid ( Type 90 Chinese), Indian tanks have Explosive reactive armor which are way better than DU armor.

and I tried searching netmarine and could find nothing about kes-80, moreover France is a signatory to NPT and hence can not develop a reactor to be installed on a sub for Pakistan.

and I just one of your earlier replies about the Indian Su-30 and how crappy Russian electronics are; well the Indian Su-30 has Indian software, Russian thrust vectoring and Israeli electronics, and about the BVR missiles most of Indian planes can fire BVR missiles and India has a stockpile of BVR missiles,

The blackcats and NSG are not Indian SSG, they are counter terrorism units.

I guess only time and Bad luck for INdia-Pakistan will tell you which is better.

[Vermuz]

What electronic, chem, bio, nuke exercises, India has performed all its exercises in an NBC environment for the last 10 years, and I really do not know what you mean by electronic; if you mean computer hacking and the stuff, India has a larger and much more trained IT taskforce than Pakistan. and yes about that GPS receiver India has been making GPS receivers for at least 10 years now.

Umm i think you didn`t get me military use of hand held receivers they were not used even by usa till recently :)



and I guess only time will tell you that all Pakistan does is dream that it will have good weapons. Weapons need cash and Pakistan has didly squat of it. If you'll say Foreign reserves of Pak. are growing that's only because of IMF loans and loan breathers that the US gave Pakistan.

Umm nopes ; usa has given pakistan 350 million dollars only and still has to return owed money for F-16 set to return by the end of year . Pakistan has foreign reserves of 9.29 billion dollars and will cross 10 billion by end f year . Thingi is huge pakistani community which used to keep money in mideast is sending money to pakistan so the reserves are rising my the weeks .Gone are the taliban and gone is afghanistan black money market so black money is dead more or less ending up in banks now .So things will rapidly change now .Also i hope you read fortune ecetera the best stock market of the year 2002 was pakistan 102 % increase money is just flowing this guy musharraf is really on track.last week most of arab countries announced to transfer money from european banks to pakistan and by this action you can imagine what will happen in coming times.


and about Pak. using the US GPS nodes in its tanks, then I would wish the Pakistanis best of luck in its use (seems they have not learned their lesson of not trusting the US as a stable technology provider).

Nopes firstly USA will never shut it down we are not so spooky to make fool of our ally also pakistanis have agreements with russia for glonass gps use and chinese for reduga dei gps satellite systems remember usa is not alone in world with gps :)


About the DU armor on Al-Khalid ( Type 90 Chinese), Indian tanks have Explosive reactive armor which are way better than DU armor.

gaurav du armour is found on abram m1a2 and something like german leopard 2 not even on russian latest tanks they didn`t use it . Pakistanis developed it in krl. Indians will be developing their own too ofcourse both pakistan and india have advanced research .I think you don`t have any knowledge on this du armour is something totally different from normal armour . By the way zarrar has 7 gradient armour russian T-90 manages 5.5 the best tank russians have made so you can imagine but india is developing its armour the race is on !


and I tried searching netmarine and could find nothing about kes-80, moreover France is a signatory to NPT and hence can not develop a reactor to be installed on a sub for Pakistan.

Russia is signatory too but it leased nuke subs to india and considers selling in future . The world is not so good out there mr gaurav pakistanis have been converting their agosta into nuke platform . And will also lease a few from chinese who got the largest fleet their apart from russia and usa.Pakistan and india will have nuke subs by 2003 as part of general fleet . Capable of nuke strikes ofcourse both of theb.

and I just one of your earlier replies about the Indian Su-30 and how crappy Russian electronics are; well the Indian Su-30 has Indian software, Russian thrust vectoring and Israeli electronics, and about the BVR missiles most of Indian planes can fire BVR missiles and India has a stockpile of BVR missiles,

Sure ; israelli cooperation is good but americans never sold sensitive software electronics codes to israellis sensitive stuff u know don`t have permission have permission from usa to do that .oh thrust vectoring every modern plane has it take it chinese j-10 ecetera/Indian software umm iam kinda disappointed indians have not reached that stage they even had problems with the d formulas of lca and had to call french help .Pakistan has bvr missiles too like india ofcourse stockpile .
By the way in coming times chinese electronics will be rivalling the americans russians were just scrap . Chinese are different!


Here is pakistan`s anti terrorist force

Force T fighting against afghanis
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14212023/JR005215.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/13998953/JR005201.jpg

Women commandos tanya unit for airlines and sensitive areas
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20021116/capt.1037437991.pakistan_politics_isl101.jpg

rangers
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20021117/i/1037544064.1342357566.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20021116/capt.1037444346.pakistan_kasi_execution_qut102.jpg

And mr mediocrates there is sky of difference when you consider pakistan and india with iraq .

Iraqis "bad equipment" / " less equipment" /"zero aggressiveness"/"no tactics to try to prolong war" if they had shown this much aggressiveness the war would have been different in some retrospect . Pakistan and india are huge
modern professional armies and above all very patriotic
they can go to extremes as shown by pakistanis against soviets
when even usa wanted to avoid them pakistanis literally flew
kamikaze F-16 missions into dens of soviets and shot them down the soviets didn`t call them worst nightmare for nothing .

I will post some articles too when i get time . Articles by different ppl who came face to face with them.

[Vermuz]

FRANCE DCN INTERNATIONAL
=====================
Pakistan navy got a major boost as the second Agosta 90B attack submarine is ready for sea trials. However it will be fully commissioned by January 2003.

This will also boost Pakistan's ambitions to become a regional supplier of the French designed vessel.
This Second Agosta 90-B submarine was built in Pakistan .
The project was completed despite a suicide bomb attack with killed 11 of the project's French engineers in front of their Karachi hotel in May. The Agosta submarine was originally due to be launched in 2001 and commissioned by the Pakistan Navy in February 2002. It will now be launched near the port city of Karachi on 24 August.

The Agosta 90-B can stay at sea longer than other submarines and can be converted to nuclear power.

The vessel is equipped with the French-made Submarine Tactical Integrated Combat System, four bow torpedo tubes, and recently successfully fired a SM39 anti ship missile, he added.

___________

Issue July ,2001
Copyright Laws reserved
============================================
KIEV INTERNATIONAL
===============
PAKISTAN INTENDS TO EQUIP ITS THREE ARMED SERVICES WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS

The government of Pakistan has instructed the Defence Ministry of Pakistan to elaborate a strategic plan to equip all the three armed services of the country's Armed Forces with nuclear weapons of domestic production and missile defence systems .
Pakistan has become a nuclear power and the government should think about the means of nuclear weapons delivery, admiral Mirza believes.
Given that the government makes a relevant decision, we are ready to modernise the submarines, he said. So far, two submarines of this class has been put into operation in the Pakistani Armed Forces. The third submarine will become operational until 2004.
After Pakistan held, following India, nuclear tests in May 1998, the USA stopped military cooperation with that country. Ukraine, which has shipyards, displays interest in cooperation with Pakistan. According to the admiral, Kiev has sent a number of very advantageous offers at moderate prices, including powerful gas turbines for the Navy. Mirza further said that a delegation of Pakistani military and technical experts intended to make a trip to Ukraine to study the projects


PS: gaurav it costs more or less 24 euros to buy the magazine must be available in india right!!

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
What electronic, chem, bio, nuke exercises, India has performed all its exercises in an NBC environment for the last 10 years, and I really do not know what you mean by electronic; if you mean computer hacking and the stuff, India has a larger and much more trained IT taskforce than Pakistan. and yes about that GPS receiver India has been making GPS receivers for at least 10 years now.

Umm i think you didn`t get me military use of hand held receivers they were not used even by usa till recently :)



and I guess only time will tell you that all Pakistan does is dream that it will have good weapons. Weapons need cash and Pakistan has didly squat of it. If you'll say Foreign reserves of Pak. are growing that's only because of IMF loans and loan breathers that the US gave Pakistan.

Umm nopes ; usa has given pakistan 350 million dollars only and still has to return owed money for F-16 set to return by the end of year . Pakistan has foreign reserves of 9.29 billion dollars and will cross 10 billion by end f year . Thingi is huge pakistani community which used to keep money in mideast is sending money to pakistan so the reserves are rising my the weeks .Gone are the taliban and gone is afghanistan black money market so black money is dead more or less ending up in banks now .So things will rapidly change now .Also i hope you read fortune ecetera the best stock market of the year 2002 was pakistan 102 % increase money is just flowing this guy musharraf is really on track.last week most of arab countries announced to transfer money from european banks to pakistan and by this action you can imagine what will happen in coming times.


and about Pak. using the US GPS nodes in its tanks, then I would wish the Pakistanis best of luck in its use (seems they have not learned their lesson of not trusting the US as a stable technology provider).

Nopes firstly USA will never shut it down we are not so spooky to make fool of our ally also pakistanis have agreements with russia for glonass gps use and chinese for reduga dei gps satellite systems remember usa is not alone in world with gps :)


About the DU armor on Al-Khalid ( Type 90 Chinese), Indian tanks have Explosive reactive armor which are way better than DU armor.

gaurav du armour is found on abram m1a2 and something like german leopard 2 not even on russian latest tanks they didn`t use it . Pakistanis developed it in krl. Indians will be developing their own too ofcourse both pakistan and india have advanced research .I think you don`t have any knowledge on this du armour is something totally different from normal armour . By the way zarrar has 7 gradient armour russian T-90 manages 5.5 the best tank russians have made so you can imagine but india is developing its armour the race is on !


and I tried searching netmarine and could find nothing about kes-80, moreover France is a signatory to NPT and hence can not develop a reactor to be installed on a sub for Pakistan.

Russia is signatory too but it leased nuke subs to india and considers selling in future . The world is not so good out there mr gaurav pakistanis have been converting their agosta into nuke platform . And will also lease a few from chinese who got the largest fleet their apart from russia and usa.Pakistan and india will have nuke subs by 2003 as part of general fleet . Capable of nuke strikes ofcourse both of theb.

and I just one of your earlier replies about the Indian Su-30 and how crappy Russian electronics are; well the Indian Su-30 has Indian software, Russian thrust vectoring and Israeli electronics, and about the BVR missiles most of Indian planes can fire BVR missiles and India has a stockpile of BVR missiles,

Sure ; israelli cooperation is good but americans never sold sensitive software electronics codes to israellis sensitive stuff u know don`t have permission have permission from usa to do that .oh thrust vectoring every modern plane has it take it chinese j-10 ecetera/Indian software umm iam kinda disappointed indians have not reached that stage they even had problems with the d formulas of lca and had to call french help .Pakistan has bvr missiles too like india ofcourse stockpile .
By the way in coming times chinese electronics will be rivalling the americans russians were just scrap . Chinese are different!


Here is pakistan`s anti terrorist force

Force T fighting against afghanis
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14212023/JR005215.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/13998953/JR005201.jpg

Women commandos tanya unit for airlines and sensitive areas
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20021116/capt.1037437991.pakistan_politics_isl101.jpg

rangers
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20021117/i/1037544064.1342357566.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20021116/capt.1037444346.pakistan_kasi_execution_qut102.jpg

And mr mediocrates there is sky of difference when you consider pakistan and india with iraq .

Iraqis "bad equipment" / " less equipment" /"zero aggressiveness"/"no tactics to try to prolong war" if they had shown this much aggressiveness the war would have been different in some retrospect . Pakistan and india are huge
modern professional armies and above all very patriotic
they can go to extremes as shown by pakistanis against soviets
when even usa wanted to avoid them pakistanis literally flew
kamikaze F-16 missions into dens of soviets and shot them down the soviets didn`t call them worst nightmare for nothing .

I will post some articles too when i get time . Articles by different ppl who came face to face with them.

The US owes Pakistan nothing for the F-16's, former Pakisani PM Nawaz Sharif acepted Soyabeans insteasd of the F-16's and got about 350 million dollars worth of soybeans.

and Vermuz it does not matter whether the US abrams or M2 tanks have DU armor, explosive reactive armor is better than DU armor. ERA works by exerting an equal and opposite force on the explosive that strikes it, this is much more than only armor protection that DU gives.

and about the nuclear submarines, INdia is leasing the sbmarines rom Russia not buying them and india has her own ATV (Indian name for a nuke sub), no country is going to supply another country with a nuke sub. no mater how friendly that country is.

and Pakistan has absolutely no links with Russia for Russia's version of the GPS. THe US has shut down supply of critical technology to Pakistan way too much for anyone in Pakistan to trust the US, if they still do maybe the chinese should teach them something about dealings with the US.

and Yes, Pakistan has no BVR capable capable missiles or A/C, however, some sources do suggest that some of its F-16's have been made BVR capable.

and as for converting the Augosta into a nuke sub. it is not as easy as installing a reactor into the submarine, if that was the case then why did the French not sell them with the reactors or as nuke submarines? The fact is that the entire submarine would have to be taken apart and radiation shielding applied and major modification done on the submarine.

and about the Pakistani Foreign reserves: Those reserves are still on oxygen provided by the IMF and WB (courtsey the US); and yes the Pakistani ISI is still using drug money (Opium is still grown in afganistan).

The Quarupal Fly by Wire system designed by INdia for the Su-30 is now also being used by boeing, the only thing the French helped in the LCA with is the Cone Radar.
and Vermuz, I do not live in India.

[richcrassus]

India maybe an israeli allie, but India will never 'help' israel in its darkest and worst situation. I cant see india giving troops to israel can u? Israel cant rely on anyone, not even the US, if the US was a very true friend, it would allow israel to finish off the palestinians once and for all for there never to be any more suicide attacks or gun attacks in israel ever again.(maybe once a year)
How will India help israel if israel is really in trouble and surrounded by arabs??? hmmm? give us some curry???lol sorry
No but really how could they possibly help??

[LoveIsrael]

India will never 'help' israel in its darkest and worst situation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be kidding . Indian's just adore Israelis. :)

Help is not meant by lobbing few nukes on arabs.

Help could be in form of intelligence & yes it can be in form of ground troops too.

Israeli intelligence officers are working along with their counterparts inside India. Training the special forces , counter terrorism & what not .

Israel has provided India with Green Pine Radar , Phalcon AWAC system. No other country share this close friendship other than US.

Israeli bombers are present in India to take out Iran's Nuclear reactor in case of any eventuality .

[Vermuz]

The US owes Pakistan nothing for the F-16's, former Pakisani PM Nawaz Sharif acepted Soyabeans insteasd of the F-16's and got about 350 million dollars worth of soybeans.


Nopes Gaurav the deal was signed on Sept 26 2002 in which usa formally agreed to pay back all the money .


and Vermuz it does not matter whether the US abrams or M2 tanks have DU armor, explosive reactive armor is better than DU armor. ERA works by exerting an equal and opposite force on the explosive that strikes it, this is much more than only armor protection that DU gives.

COmeon Gaurav take a breather course in military before saying that . Du armour is the most dangerous armour in the world . Americans made it first . Russians couldn`t .

and about the nuclear submarines, INdia is leasing the sbmarines rom Russia not buying them and india has her own ATV (Indian name for a nuke sub), no country is going to supply another country with a nuke sub. no mater how friendly that country is.


Umm leasing is a good dilpomatic word gaurav ! Try to understand Gaurav .

and Pakistan has absolutely no links with Russia for Russia's version of the GPS. THe US has shut down supply of critical technology to Pakistan way too much for anyone in Pakistan to trust the US, if they still do maybe the chinese should teach them something about dealings with the US.

Nopes pakistan`s ISI was very helpful to russians in cracking chechens like americans cracked taliban . Russia doesn`t like pakistan but russia is cash strapped and russia cannot ignore such an important and big country to be its sworn enemy a big reason a huge diplomatic mission is arriving in pakistan in decemeber from russia with a message from mr putin.

and Yes, Pakistan has no BVR capable capable missiles or A/C, however, some sources do suggest that some of its F-16's have been made BVR capable.

Pakistan has Aim-7 sparrow , Aim-9 is not bvr . Russian AA-10 sold through china , Chinese licensed production of R-77 russian bvr missile (chinese call it Project-129) ; south african denel missiles , French matra , mica with rose mirage upgrades as well as pakistan-china project (sd-10) = aim-120 will arm pakistan planes as well as the s-7 to be introduced soon.They also have oher french missiles but iam talking only about beyond visual range missiles . They produce Pl-9 and pakistanis reverse engineering americam Aim-9 and have there own production ; they also exported some to turkey.


and as for converting the Augosta into a nuke sub. it is not as easy as installing a reactor into the submarine, if that was the case then why did the French not sell them with the reactors or as nuke submarines? The fact is that the entire submarine would have to be taken apart and radiation shielding applied and major modification done on the submarine.

Its done :)


and about the Pakistani Foreign reserves: Those reserves are still on oxygen provided by the IMF and WB (courtsey the US); and yes the Pakistani ISI is still using drug money (Opium is still grown in afganistan).

Largest us aid was to north korea and then israel not more than 2 billion dollars . Pakistan had reserves of 800 million when musharraf came they will 11 billion in jan -2003 please try to understand pakistan got only 350 million in aid and a relax of 1.2 billion dollar payment dateline from paris club thatz all pakistan has economy on track now . Also they plan huge sales of arms from aicrafts to tanks to ships and subs . Their pac just signed 517 million dollar deal with usa for export of trainers to usa and they are eyeing markets in south africa , asia and if possible mideast .


The Quarupal Fly by Wire system designed by INdia for the Su-30 is now also being used by boeing, the only thing the French helped in the LCA with is the Cone Radar.
and Vermuz, I do not live in India.

Umm boeing uses fladga alenia 336 M fly by wire joint italian american project mr Gaurav do you think iam not in this field . Please!! If you are not in india that doesn`t mean i said indians don`t have knowledge mr Gaurav !


And mr Love Israel comeon we spend 2.21 billion dollars a year on your army . Israel army was made in the way that it can take care of arabs i mean whole mideast israel doesn`t need any help from anyone a very capable modern and armed and ready army of israel is there . About iran ; usa is not blind . Allies want to get over with iraq and then iran , i can even show basings in pakistan where us troops and pakistanis are trying to keep track what iranians do . Lucky for us pakistan is sunni and iran is shia . iran also funds baluchis in pakistan to rise up against government and mr musharraf despises that !! He even told mr bush once if it doesn`t heat up region i have thought of taking care of iran once and for all . Well we don`t want iran action right now , what we want is saddam and that he doesn`t do anything stupid .


__________________

[Vermuz]

You know what so called good guyz Russians were really perturbed by american points on help for iran .Americans have always ured russia not to help iran make the bomb but they don`t listen something will be done about that ; thatzzz for sure!!

So they planned a strike mission.[Strike to end pakistan`s control on afghanistan few years ago in late 90s and in turn american prospective control of CIS through afghanistan ] (CIS OIL) By the way american intelligence and pakistan`s isi sub units are still involved in controlling CIS prospective american suppliers of oil when usa is trying to leave mideast as its chief supplier of oil in coming years .

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/afghanistan-strike-map-01.gif
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/afghanistan-strike-map-02.gif

So pakistanis intimidated them with airstrikes on hidden russian targets in afghanistan , flushed out the kbg hiding in there .Pakistani intelligence also found their important spaces and got them all . Deployed missiles along with border and radar jammers as well as perfect jamming provided through electronic warfare sentrys . Gosh russians were frightened never dared to undertake the mission.There is a guy in command retired now Gen Yousuf he is known as the satan in russia . He had ordered 6 F-16s in afghanistan deployment with 4 bombs each double the destructive power of those used in hiroshima, The plan was known by cia and planned . Very ambitious to send 6 F-16 through afghanistan jamming russian defences they will hit moscow and to make sure something reaches that place six were to be sent to end the story of moscow . Lucky for russians they dropped plans of strike getting frightened otherwise there could have been no moscow !


Gosh there is so much ppl don`t know what has been going on there in years . Very secretive alliances indeed!!!

[Vermuz]

Pakistan To Buy C-130s, Get Reimbursed For F-16s

Aerospace Daily
September 18, 2002

NEW DELHI - Days after notifying Congress of the proposed sale of defense equipment to India, Washington has approved the sale of a major defense package to Pakistan.

The package includes C-130E aircraft(DAILY, July 19), as well as P-3 Orion maritime surveillance aircraft,advanced Harpoon missiles and other equipment, totaling about $400 million.

The diplomats also said Pakistan would be reimbursed for F-16s it paid for earlier, but which were blocked when U.S. sanctions were put in place as a response to Pakistan's nuclear tests.

A senior Indian ministry of defense official said New Delhi has registered its displeasure with the sale of the defense equipment to rival Pakistan. India has bought $100 million worth of equipment from Usa this year.

(DAILY, Sept. 16).
=============================================
Pakistan exports defence products to NATO

ISLAMABAD, Sep 4 : Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF) is on the threshold to export its defence products to North Atlantic Treaty Countries (NATO), said Chairman POF Lt. General Abdul Qayyum. In an interview he said POF will export its defence products not only to NATO countries but also to Far Eastern, African and Latin American countries. He said POF has managed to secure business of more than $ 80 million and is considering an additional contracts like 517 million PAC deal . However relationship with United States can hamper some deals related to sensitive technology .He said POF has the capability to launch computerised smart weapons keeping in view the requirement of contemporary warfare. He said the POF is set to display its products at IDEAS-2002 exhibition. -- APP
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/attachment.php?postid=19350
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/attachment.php?postid=19354
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/attachment.php?postid=19367

By the way turkey was biggest importer of vehicles from pakistan in 2000.
http://www.jed.simonides.org/fulltrack/mike-number-us/m113_series/ad-pakistan/adpak_001jpg.jpg
http://www.pmulcahy.com/self-propelled_antiaircraft_files/Image2918.jpg
http://www.pmulcahy.com/self-propelled_antiaircraft_files/M-113_Anza.jpg
http://scourge.cwru.edu/faisal/zeeshan/pictures/Yasoob.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/mvrde/images/60semitrailer.jpg

=============================================


Satisified mr Gaurav :) Money will be returned to pakistanis by december 2002 .
By the way about khaled is not T-90. Totally different from that in capabilities and tech .

[Vermuz]

Pak, Israel defence ties likely The Hindustan Times, Washington

Israel is seriously considering developing defence ties with Pakistan, according to David Ivry, Israel’s top national security official.

According to Defence News, Ivry acknowledged in an interview that Israel had developed strong defence trade ties and military exchanges with India. But he did not think that should conflict with efforts to craft a similar relationship in the future with Pakistan.

“I think Israel should build up good relations with India and Pakistan. But we don’t need to be involved in the conflict on the sub-continent,’’ Ivry said. “If we can build a relationship with Pakistan — a large, important Islamic country — it will be done in a way that does not target or threaten third country.’’ Explaining Israel’s philosophy, Ivry said: “we need friends, we need to build up relations and common interests with as many countries as we can, regardless of the country’s religious orientation.”

Ivry, a former commander of Israel’s air force and longtime director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Defence, has now been selected to be the first national Security Adviser. He is a leading figure behind Israel’s thriving military relationship with Turkey.

According to Defence News, Pakistani and Israeli diplomats have been secretly engaged in cursory, unofficial contacts for the past two years, despite Islamabad’s official stance of not recognising Israel. In a mid-1998 interview, Pakistan’s Ambassador here, Riaz Khokhar, is quoted as saying Pakistan was interested in forging full of diplomatic relations with Israel once other Islamic states in the Gulf region did so.

“It makes a lot of sense to establish diplomatic relations with Israel. But we will not be among the first to do so,” Khokhar said.

===========================================

[GauravS]

Vermuz,

You should read up on non-Us technology, try reading up on ERA, Russians could not develop DU armor does not mean they can't develop anything better than it.

[Vermuz]

Mr Gaurav if you want i can explain russian armour too with its differences from world class armours :)

If you want to know anything about india / pakistan / china
missile defense shields to be operational soon . Missile systems , cruise missiles ,tanks , aircraft , huge destroyers, frigate, submarines , unmanned planes anythin. projects anything even of russia you can ask me i know all that . Infact the way india pakistan and china are going russians will be out of equation very soon .


Afterall its my field mr Gaurav .


By the way one query what is "hanukkah" .Apart from greeting all those who are concerned i will like to know what it is?

Have a nice day \../ Hasta la veesta

[Mediocrates]

Chanukah is a Jewish holiday that commemorates the Hasmoean overthrow of the Greek- Syrian tyrant Antiochus. Antiochus enforced paganism and ruined the Jewish temples in Judea. The Hasmonean clan a powerful local group organized a guerilla revolt against Syrians and threw them out. Chanukah is a celebration of the rededication of the Temple. Chanukah is a recent holiday by Judaic standards, occuring about 168BCE so it is far later than anything in Torah (Jewish bible).

Some would say it's a minor holiday but as my Rabbi says, there is nothing minor in Judaism.

[LoveIsrael]

India to acquire Tadiran radios from Israel
-----------------------------------------------------

India has decided to acquire $35 million worth advanced tactical radios from Israel's Tadiran Communications.
This is in addition to $80 million worth medium-range tactical communications systems ordered by India from Tadiran Communications, Jane's Defence Weekly said in its latest issue.

[LoveIsrael]

India acquires Green Pine radars from Israel


NEW DELHI: In a bid to bolster its defences against missiles, India has acquired the advanced Green Pine radars from Israel, but no headway has been made on acquisition of spy satellites or anti missile shield as these systems are still under development by Tel Aviv.

On Night vision devices, the defence secretary said the Army had projected these as "prime requirement" in checking infiltration and counter insurgency operations and the ministry was trying its best to ensure that a large number of hand held thermals were provided to the forces.

[I am David]

Hey LoveIsrael, and welcome to the forums :)

Yeah India is a big purchaser of Israeli military products, as is a lot of other countries. I believe Israel is like in the top 10 arms suppliers in the world. I believe it is even 6th. Not bad for a country only 50 years old and only 6 million people.

[LoveIsrael]

India To Get 2 Nuclear Submarines, Shchuka B-class [Akula II] nuclear subs.

India and Russia will sign a landmark "Delhi Declaration" during the three-day State visit of President Vladimir Putin from December 3 and give special focus to military-technical cooperation on which some agreements are expected to be finalised.

The two sides are finalising accords for sale of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier , speeding of licenses for production of SU-30 MKI and supply of nuclear submarines to the Indian Navy.


Indian Defence minister G.Fernandes will take the opportunity of Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to India next week to lease nuclear submarines and Tu-22M3 long-range strategic bombers from Russia. India would not need long-range bombers for Pakistan. And Russian sources say they "confidently expect" the long-awaited deal for India to acquire the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov to be signed next week.

[LoveIsrael]

hi David,

Thanks . :)

Israel is India's second largest arms supplier, after Russia. According to foreign reports, over $3 billion in arms deals are in the pipeline.
I think Israel will grab No.1 position in Arms supply to India .

Israel is also helping India in counter-terrorist operations.

Both countries share common wounds of Islamic terrorism.

[I am David]

I really think that India should buy Israel's Merkava MK4 tanks. I don't know what India is doing bothering with Russian t90s, they are very poor tanks. Merkavas are great tanks, with tons of features and enourmously safe for the crew. It would be wise for India to make Merkava its staple tank :)

[Vermuz]

Mr David

merkava is a very nice tank but the excessively rugged terrain will give it same problems as the abram had in asia .

Mr LoveIsrael

Umm cool so this turns out true that both india and pakistan will have full fledge nuclear navies by 2003. interesting !
About radars pakistan exported tpq-36 and 37 american radars to turkey against kurds.

The Tu-22 is just a very old gimmick . I think india should concentrate on missiles . The ads-37 of pakistan like indian akash can shoot down long range supersonic bombers. Tu-22 is most probably gonna be used for surveillance due its speed same thing russians did with Tu-22 and Tu-22Pd for surveillance untill one was shot down by pakistanis.By the way pakistan will have a full fledge missile shield in place by the end of 2003 like india.
Anyone needs snaps :)
India and pakistan should invest more on missiles like China.They should have an armada of them new conflicts are more
about missiles .
LONG RANGE ANTI AIR AND MISSILE SYSTEMS
================================
LIST DOESN`T INCLUDE LOW ALTITUDE MISSILE DEFENCE SYSTEMS ONLY LONG RANGE ANTI AIRCRAFT AND ANTI MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEMS
=========================================
INDIA
====
S-300
Akash
Arrow
Indian copy of S-300(no name announced yet)
Trishul [air defence]

PAKISTAN
=======
Patriot[New advanced]
Ads-37
Ft-2000A(chinese license production of S-400)[that will take upto 2004 to deploy in pakistan]
Hummat[some say shadoz] (pakistani copy of S-300 with a very modern radar)
LY-60(ground)
KS-1A [future deployments will include stealth finder radar integration]
Anza Mk-3[Pakistan-sweden developed radar system]

CHINA
=====
KS-1
KS-1A
Ly-60
S-300PMU
S-300V
S-400
Fledunga Fls-1 laser beam missile cum high intensity gun system
Q-4 [anti cruise missile system]
Hq-9
Hq-10[License production S-300 with even radar ]
Hq-15
Hq-16
Hq-61
FM-90[Ship based Anti missile]
FT-2000 (Anti awacs role with stealth finder radar can take out F-22 , F-117 and stealths )
FT-2000A(ballistic missile shield)
REDFLAG 16
REDFLAG 18
REDFLAG 19
ZM-87 [Laser to destroy incoming missile and disable warhead]
C-02 [ Atomic Laser for destructive and defensive roles]

Well Protected nations indeed especially china ; even russians never came close to massive research like this .

[Vermuz]

Why doesn`t india acquire some electronics from pakistan based firms .They are not under control of the government unlike POF which has to get government writ before sales . Mr Vajpayee has already given most favoured nation status to pakistan and pakistan is expected to return favour by giving MFN status to india that will mean massive trade .Lets hope this happens soon.


Pakistan has actively exported some of its radars . Infact turkey has bought LAADS systems from pakistan already and bought
Tpq-36/37 upgrade even when pakistan was sanctioned by usa .

http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/laads.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/me.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/skyguard.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/speech.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/an-tpq-37.jpg

Pakistan also displayed a radar on ideas-2002 based on chinese - pakistani research on plz
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/plz45-155sp-radar245.jpg

Nato countries have already bought thermal imagine devices from pakistan including countries like belgium

http://www.depo.org.pk/products/iop/images/iop.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/ndc/images/radar.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/nrtc/images/nrtc.jpg

They have also developed unmanned aerial vehicles with ECM , thermal imaging and signal ciphering systems .
Some have been deployed along border with afghanistan too .

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Why doesn`t india acquire some electronics from pakistan based firms .They are not under control of the government unlike POF which has to get government writ before sales . Mr Vajpayee has already given most favoured nation status to pakistan and pakistan is expected to return favour by giving MFN status to india that will mean massive trade .Lets hope this happens soon.


Pakistan has actively exported some of its radars . Infact turkey has bought LAADS systems from pakistan already and bought
Tpq-36/37 upgrade even when pakistan was sanctioned by usa .

http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/laads.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/me.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/skyguard.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/me/images/speech.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/an-tpq-37.jpg

Pakistan also displayed a radar on ideas-2002 based on chinese - pakistani research on plz
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/plz45-155sp-radar245.jpg

Nato countries have already bought thermal imagine devices from pakistan including countries like belgium

http://www.depo.org.pk/products/iop/images/iop.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/ndc/images/radar.jpg
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/nrtc/images/nrtc.jpg

They have also developed unmanned aerial vehicles with ECM , thermal imaging and signal ciphering systems .
Some have been deployed along border with afghanistan too .

Vermuz,

India develops its own radars (phased array), and Pakistan does not have anything that can shoot down high altitude planes like the Mig-25 and the Tu bombers that India is getting.

Infact in 1992, a MIg-25 of the IAF went right over Pakistan and the pilot just to rub it in went supersoic over Islamabad, you can imagiine the surprise Pakistanis got when they heard the Sonic boom and still could not do anything about it.

Vermuz, you have not supplied nything which proves that Pakistan will have anything close to a nuclear navy in 2003 or anytime soon. All there have been are rumors because the Augosta 90-B can be modified to fire Nuke missiles and can be extensively modified to have a nuke reactor.

[Vermuz]

India develops its own radars (phased array), and Pakistan does not have anything that can shoot down high altitude planes like the Mig-25 and the Tu bombers that India is getting.

Hahah even americans didn`t have anything to shoot down iraqi Mig-25.nothing much can be done but they are not armed and basically for recon and some planes were used to be scrambled to get rid of them.
About Tu bombers . The supersonic bombers were supplied to libya by Ussr . Tu-22 could compromise israeli defenses so basically patriot was developed for shooting down planes early version of patriot .Pakistan has ks-1 on list . Ks-1 is totally a patriot chinese development , it was meant to go at supersonic speeds and hit the plane . However no missile can guarantee that tu-22 can be downed but a relative fire of 16 missiles can do the job as soviets used to do.


Infact in 1992, a MIg-25 of the IAF went right over Pakistan and the pilot just to rub it in went supersoic over Islamabad, you can imagiine the surprise Pakistanis got when they heard the Sonic boom and still could not do anything about it.

Yeah i heard it . And it was funny since like americans they couldn`t do much except send F-16 which has 10,000 ft less ceiling then Mig-25 :)to chase it away


Vermuz, you have not supplied nything which proves that Pakistan will have anything close to a nuclear navy in 2003 or anytime soon. All there have been are rumors because the Augosta 90-B can be modified to fire Nuke missiles and can be extensively modified to have a nuke reactor.

Hey i posted the kiev international declaration by pakistan to have a nuclear airforce , navy and army with respective missile defence systems .

Check my post . i have posted it twice . Pakistan is actively persuing project it even came in louisiana journal . They also bought the most sophisticated supersonic land launched cruise missile that soviets had developed in cold war to hit american big ships and cruisers .Soviets sold tech to china ended up in pakistan in late 90s .

Want a pic its damn killer ; soviets claimed if ever used it can take out a nimitz .haha damn the soviets .

Have a nice day gaurav

[Vermuz]

Need any snaps lemme know :)

[I am David]

Any tank has problem with rough terrain, so the Merkava is still good for India.

Also don't forget that the Merkava was designed for terrain probably rougher and sandier and rockier than even India.

[GauravS]

Originally posted by I am David
Any tank has problem with rough terrain, so the Merkava is still good for India.

Also don't forget that the Merkava was designed for terrain probably rougher and sandier and rockier than even India.

I do not much knowledge about the Mervaka, but does it have any US sub systems, if yes Then India will never buy it because American equipment or equipment that has American sub systems on it has too many strings attached to them and can lead to blackmails during times of conflict. US did this to pakistan in 1965 and 1971 and even now. Given India is buying Israeli aviaonics but that too because they are the best and I mean the Best, so India can compromise on that, but I can't say the same about the Mervaka.

[LoveIsrael]

India is way way superior than pakistan in military might.

Pakistan cannot match India in another 10 Yrs.

No country is ready to supply Pakistan Hi-tech military weapons.
( Only china with junkyard weapons.)

On the other hand Isreal is backing India & supplying every Hi tech weapon it needs.

Few weeks ago US offered India F-16 fighter jets , It was considered a slap on Pakistan's face.

[LoveIsrael]

India, Israel to jointly market hi-tech helicopters :)


Bangalore: India would shortly join hands with Israel for joint marketing of indigenously produced advance light helicopter (ALH) in the world market, a top aviation official said .


Chairman and managing director of India's aviation major (HAL), said that HAL would sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Israel Aviation Industry in a couple of days in this regard.

Mohanty told reporters after attending a function that many countries had come forward for joint-marketing of ALH but the Bangalore headquartered, Rs 2,775 crore HAL has decided to go with Israel.

"Israel would push their avionics in our ALH platform and we will jointly do world marketing," he said.

Back from a recent air show in Greece, Mohanty said that India today is held in high esteem in Defence sector, adding, the country's relationship with foreign collaborators has moved away from being a supplier-customer one to equal partners buying from each other.

HAL, a Defence Public Sector Undertaking, produced seven ALHs during 200-02 and is manufacturing 11 more in the current financial year. "We are increasing our capacity for ALH production," he added.

[Vermuz]

Hhah i respect your spirit mr loveisrael :)


India is way way superior than pakistan in military might.

Nopes .

Pakistan cannot match India in another 10 Yrs.

Umm india and pakistan will always be equal but india and pakistan will not be able to match china in next 6 to 7 years .

No country is ready to supply Pakistan Hi-tech military weapons.
( Only china with junkyard weapons.)

france , germany most advanced nations apart from usa are full allies of pakistan . By the way about china ; china is challenging usa in next 8 years mr loveisrael please wake up .They will be the
most powerful , rich and advanced nation in the world in next decade , a fact accepted by even usa .


On the other hand Isreal is backing India & supplying every Hi tech weapon it needs.

Umm yeah israel is backing india but that can`t help much , Pakistan is a huge country with allies in europe , usa and the big thing CHINA the next superpower as well as UKRAINE .

Few weeks ago US offered India F-16 fighter jets , It was considered a slap on Pakistan's face

Problem with deal was that pakistan said it wants all used F-16 of USAF which government said it needed in action for now and pakistan asked for brand new F-18 that was also a problem however usa said it doesn`t have problem if pakistan acquires planes from any other source ; infact pakistan will be producing its own version of F-16/F-20 in form of S-7 by 2003 which uses same radar as F-16 and F-15 use apg-66 and apg-68 thanks to italian transfer of technology to pakistan and pakistan will arm its huge inventory of S-7 with bvr missiles ; french mica , denel darter and aim-9 . Usa has released the Apache for sale first batch is already in inventory of pakistan . However pakistan will buy more as it wants to increase apache and cobra inventories and also that china is introducing Z-10 gunship in 2003 and ofcourse first offer will be made to pakistan .
Umm Usa offered F-16A to india which india rejected since india don`t trust americans.Umm your language seems you hate pakistan alot . hmm interesting but iam sorry pakistan is militarily too strong for any country in region . Thanks to europe and china and now usa .Usa cannot slap pakistan a really big and important country . However usa doesn`t want to sell F-16 and F-18 that pakistan wants to stop arms race in south asia but pakistan has other choices like mirage-2005, J-10, rafale too usa is considering that since they have to give something to keep their record clear as ally . Usa cannot intimidate an important country like pakistan . Especially after iran is dying to fall in love with pakistan . If that happens and military aid starts from pakistan we will see a new army from iran ; usa has to keep check on that too that it doesn`t anger pakistan to take a different path .Gen Chuck yeager supreme commander once said ; this region has countries of which we can`t do much (ind-pak-china-russo).

BY THE WAY PAKISTAN HAS LAUNCHED ITS NEW PASSENGER JET
=============================================
AND WILL INTRODUCE PRODUCTION IN 2003 AND 2004
========================================
Iran ,Pakistan discuss joint production of passenger aircraft

ISLAMABAD: A high-level military delegation from Iran will be here next week to explore areas of defence cooperation with Pakistan.

Informed defence and diplomatic sources told on Thursday that the delegation headed by Iran's deputy defence minister would arrive here on Monday. The Iranian officials will discuss with their Pakistani counterparts defence capabilities of both the countries to see how they could benefit from their respective expertise in the area.

The visit of the Iranian defence delegation to Pakistan is seen by observers as a distinct sign of a thaw in relations between the two countries that had been strained for several years.

Currently the defence cooperation between the two countries is at a very small level, confined largely to training, naval exercises and some ammunition trade, a senior official told Dawn.

Sources said that Iran had shown keen interest in Pakistan's Mashak training aircraft and AL-Khalid tanks. They said that another potential export from Pakistan to Iran could be gun-boats, hinting at a possibility of the two countries entering into a joint venture for defence equipment including warships.

Pakistani officials said ,Pakistan was interested in joint production of the Iranian passenger aircraft that have been operational since early this year.

There has been easing of tensions between Pakistan and Iran following Sept 11 and the subsequent fall of the Taliban regime. The first visible signs of improvement in relations between the two brotherly countries were witnessed in November 1999 when President Gen Pervez Musharraf visited Tehran. After taking over as the country's Chief Executive, President Musharraf's first official visit abroad was to Iran.

A major breakthrough in the relations was achieved only recently when Iran's top National Security Advisor Hassan Ruhani visited Pakistan. Ruhani led a 30-member delegation to Pakistan on June 28.

Sources privy to meetings between Ruhani and his counterpartshere said officials were very encouraged and satisfied with Ruhani's response to key issues raised by Pakistan.

These included opening up of Pakistan cultural centres in Iran and establishing of a consulate at Bandar Abbas, the main seaport for Iran's oil exports. The only two countries that have a consulate there are UAE and India. Ruhani agreed in principle to both these requests.

Currently Iran has seven cultural centres and four consulates in Pakistan whereas Pakistan has no cultural centre in Iran and has only two consulates there.

Islamabad also raised its concern about Tehran allowing India to set up a consulate in Mashhad despite scant Indian population there. Pakistan was given the assurance by Iran that it would keep a check on the Indian activities keeping in view Pakistan's strategic sensitivities in the area. Meanwhile, Pakistan officials are quite hopeful of cooperation between Pakistan and Iran expanding and moving in a mutually beneficial direction.

Under a recent agreement between the two countries, Iran will be soon setting up a bus manufacturing plant in Karachi that would produce a thousand buses. In another significant development Pakistan has reportedly secured a deal with Iran on import of electricity for parts of Balochistan, at extremely cheaper rates than local electricity. The deal is also likely to include import of diesel from Iran. Pakistan on the other hand may export refined gasoline to Iran, well-placed sources told Dawn.

The total trade volume between Pakistan and Iran is to the tune of $370 million that heavily tilts in favour of Iran. Of the total figure Pakistan exports to Iran account for only $25 million. Pakistan's biggest import from Iran is crude oil.

In the context of Pakistan-Iran relations the primary concern of Iranians is the presence of the US forces in Pakistan while the latter's is the North-South Corridor that Iran wants to establish with India and Russia. Both countries are trying hard to allay fears and suspicions that arise from these concerns to further strengthen their ties.

Press Trust of india

==========
PS: An-140 is a world class plane that will produced in iran and pakistan under contract from ukraine .

By the way Chinese did offer laser weapons to pakistan but they couldn`t afford its facilities however things might change now since pakistan is now spending lot of money and the coming visit by chinese president in 2003 will lead to signing of strategic and defence deals running in billions.French defence minister has already signed defence cooperation deals in october 2002 and ukrainian president is arriving in pakistan and india this year .

[Vermuz]

Usa has urged pakistan not to irritate russians. But i wonder what will happen since pakistan was considering an aid of 20,000
tons of weaponery to chechens also nodded by us government
to fight inhumane russians.

Deal was stopped due to russian pleas to usa and pakistan not to interfere in chechnya . With foreign minister of russian arriving in pakistan to deliver request from Mr putin . Iam waiting if pakistan does it in essence then the face of war in chechnya will change .That will be fun :) Russians have just played blood games in chechnya ; where rebels don`t get aid from anyone .

As far as india - israel relationship is concerned that is very wellcome since israel needs to have relationship with countries outside mideast and not get isolated . But i will like to tell my buddies here israel is a cute country and very dear to usa . But israel cannot help india against heavy weights like pakistan and china . The sec of defence william cohen once rightly described
its a power triangle (ind-pak-china-russia) their infighting is important for usa security needs the day this triangle join hands that will be catastrophic for west and world .Truely huge and powerful nations and thankfully not friends with one another . india-russia / pak-china.But russia has excellent relations with china too .Israel was made mideast region power so that barbaric arabs don`t ever think of threatening it but israel cannot increase its scope beyond that into asia . Asia has a power triangle where other countries are helpless even usa . However one thing is good the power triangle keeps fighting one another .
The day it unites it will be D-day well lets hope for the best it doesn`t happen .The arsenals of this triangle is just phenomenal!!

[Vermuz]

I think most of people don`t know about china .

China has 42 missile defense systems developed . Check out
the missile shield .just one of many systems being developed.China has a military industry cutting edge of russians .
Chinese are now readying to challenge USA.

http://www.hkads.com/lb5000/non-cgi/usr/56/56_105_3.jpg

China also produces Z-5 , Z-8 , Z-9 , Z-11 .

In 2003 Z-10
=========
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/AVIC_Helicopters-cover.jpg

Ofcourse will be offered to pakistan first of all :)pakistan which already has cobra and apache will love to have Z-10 for productin rights.

Z-10A 2003/2004
=============
http://www.war-sky.com/lb5000/usr/7/7_1329.jpg

Z-10B
====
http://www.war-sky.com/lb5000/usr/7/7_1329_3.jpg

In 2005/2006 Z-10C stealth gunship .

China also has stealth project J-14 , and F-22 equivalents
J-12 A/B/C. As well as J-10A for JSF and J-10 for F-18 . S-7 and
F-7MF for F-16 .Pakistan has also funneled all its european tech to china which has successfully developed its tech .Also F-8V super tornado and Jh-7a as well as many many other planes and Cy-1 super wing . And transports and you lose count of em.

China has already introduced J-10 however J-10A and J-10B(carrier version are in line)
http://www.hkads.com/lb5000/non-cgi/usr/56/56_105_11.jpg
http://www.hkads.com/lb5000/non-cgi/usr/56/56_105_7.jpg

China has already announced 22 billion dollar project JJX set to be introduced as equivalent to F-22 . ofcourse chinese hu jintau has said pakistan will be offered the plane china will go for huge deployment of this plane .Pakistan and china will use it as frontline plane in coming years.
http://218.108.248.138/fbc01/www/j13a.jpg

Viewing pakistan`s relationship with britian which considers india and pakistan as family ; pakistan has got hands on all european tech .

[Vermuz]

The technology is just endless when you discuss that region .
phew..... i don`t know what to post its a never ending story of weaponery .By the way usa has decided to give pw-100-200
data to pakistan for co-production rights soon for fighter aircraft jet engine it remains kinda confusing since chinese who have got all tech from russians now in form of ws-10, ws-10a (thrust vectoring) and are developing own ws-11, ws-12 and ws-13 are already asking pakistan to come forward for production proposal in kamra pakistan . what will pakistan choose something they know:)Pakistan already produces Atar-9c french jet engine that powers mirage ; among buyers were kuwait and uae.

Iraq in 1999 had approached both pakistan and india for missile defence systems like akash and pakistani anza -3 and ads-37 but since both are us allies so they had to refuse otherwise iraqis can pay alot !

Pakistan on its part has the second most trained airforce in the world was approached along with french to train iraqi pilots but usa approached pakistan and the training didn`t go into effect .However Chinese realized this because most of pakistani pilots were trained in topgun untill 1997 and from 2001 a batch of 15 pilots was also deputed to usa therefore chinese are going for full fledge training with pakistanis to have world class pilots.

============================================
QUOTE[BEST TRAINED PILOTS OF THE WORLD]
=============================================
I rank world pilots as
1-United States Airforce
2-Pakistan Airforce
3-Israel Airforce
"It is the experience of the man in the cockpit that matters most" and the man who wins in air combat on
any given day is invariably "the man with the most experience".
Iraqi pilot training came from three sources: France, Pakistan and the former Soviet Union. Lucky for us, Soviet training proved dominant, with
their emphasis on rigid rules, strict command arrangements and standardized tactics. Coupled with this centralized approach, the Soviets were
suspicious of non-Russians and disliked Arabs . . . There was, however, a wild card. Not all training came from the Russians. Iraqi pilots were
trained well by their French and Pakistani instructors . . . Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready air forces in the world. For Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their
worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, especially the Islamic world, because they know how to fly and fight. On one or
two occasions, I had the opportunity to talk with Pakistani instructor pilots, who had served in Iraq. These discussions, didn't give me great cause
to worry. The Russian domination of training prevented the Pakistanis from having any real influence on the Iraqi aircrew training program. Still,
there had to be a few Iraqi pilots, who had observed and listened to their mentors from France and Pakistan . . . It was those few, I was concerned about." (10)
===========================================
Clancy, Tom & Horner, Chuck, Every Man A Tiger, Penguin Putnam, (1999), ISBN No. 0399144935
Gen. Chuck Horner of the United States Air Force (USAF) and Commander
of Allied Forces in the 1991 Gulf War in his biography by Tom Clancy, Every Man A Tiger.
===========================================
Check out the above book from stores contains tactics of combat and how different top of line airforces of the world take on missions especially in iraq war .Pakistanis flew planes of kuwait and saudia arabia as well as own Paf was in action in start of conflict.
PS:
You guyz need any stuff on weapons on ind-pak-china-russo
i can provide that :)

[GauravS]

Vermuz,

You have stated that Pakistan will have all kinds of weapons in 2003-2004; I will post on Pak. weapon systems again in a year from now(have the dates stored on every computer I have access to and my PDA too) and we'll see what the status is then.

[Vermuz]

Umm i have given you a very very small list of equipment
china is making and pakistan is set to acquire .

What pakistan and india are making and developing and manufacturing .

If i start talking about india-pakistan-china equipment trends
this forum will have band width problem .

I don`t want to create a military environment here mr Gaurav:)

I guess world makes a point and thinks
about it that way i didn`t know that people in mideast didn`t know about this huge triangle in asia . [rus-ind-pak-china]

These are really huge powers .

Have a nice day and take care \../

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Umm i have given you a very very small list of equipment
china is making and pakistan is set to acquire .

What pakistan and india are making and developing and manufacturing .

If i start talking about india-pakistan-china equipment trends
this forum will have band width problem .

I don`t want to create a military environment here mr Gaurav:)

I guess world makes a point and thinks
about it that way i didn`t know that people in mideast didn`t know about this huge triangle in asia . [rus-ind-pak-china]

These are really huge powers .

Have a nice day and take care \../
Vermuz,
India is not in the mid east, its South Asia ( not saying that being in mideast is bad), and I can not imagine how can anyone in the world think that India and Pakistan can be on one side of any aliance. Pakistani President is on record saying that even if the Kashmir dispute is resolved there can no friendship between INdia and Pakistan.

The biggest strategic mistake Western countries make is that they look at Asian values as if they are no different than western values, they tend to forget that Emotions play a much more vital role in asian thinking than in Western, this is the reason why Muslims the world over get charged over Palestine even though they are at fault and that is the reason why the Chinese get charged up when someone puts their civilization down and the same goes for INdia. Western nations need to look at the world with Asian eyes if they hope to understand Asian strategic thinking not through Europen/western value systems or their strategic outlook.

[LoveIsrael]

GauravS,

Relax.

Pakistan won't get anything , on the other hand US has warned pakistan & can slap sanctions if Pakistan continue the proliferation of nuclear weapon technology .

Mr. Powell warned Pakistan of "consequences" on N.Korea few days ago.

Mr vermuz is living in Fantasyland . :o ;)

Vermuz Pakistan is living on aid . Get up from your deep sleep.

Look at Defence expediture of India & Pakistan , you will get a
shock of your life.

They simply cannot match India even Pakistan's top generals admit it .

India has the strongest NAVY in Indian Ocean . Even China cannot match it.

India is getting every hi-tech weapon from Israel, Russia, US,UK & France.


1) New York Times : Wider Military Ties With India Offer U.S.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/10/international/asia/10INDI.html

Close American military relationship with India, a developing, democratic nation of a billion people with a million-member army, as a factor that would give pause to a rising, autocratic China , if not now, then a decade or two down the road when India has become richer and more powerful, American officials say

2) Blair defends arms sales to India, raps Pakistan

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?art_id=13576502

"The only thing that matters is that Pakistan stop its support for terrorism in Kashmir and the export of terrors from Kashmir " Blair said.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair has defended his government’s decision to carry on selling arms to India throughout the recent period of nail-biting tension in the sub-continent.


3) India, Russia close to fifth generation fighter jet deal

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=13576

4)US To Start Despatch Of Radars From July ’04 & Complete It by 05

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=23218

5) Indo-french Submarine Deal, 6 more subs for india

http://www.defensenews.com/home.php

[Vermuz]

hahaha

Do you even know china has more nuclear submarines than
even russia .
China is making stealth destroyers and frigates , nuke subs.
Their aircraft carrier has been spotted by us spy satellite on sept
27 ,2002 , GOD where are you mr love israel china has more
classes of warships than soviets what to talk of russians.
You are really sleeping . I dont blame you for that . also about
usa ; defence sec of usa is in pakistan now to give letter from
mr bush to pakistani pres . Aid ??? where .

Mr gaurav is an educated guy he understood you cannot make 800 million into 11 billion in jan 2003 with aid .

Anyways you are from israel so i can`t say much :) The radars usa is selling to india are under production in pakistan ask mr gaurav please.

Usa can again sanction pakistan but it wouldn`t effect since pakistan was under sanctions from 1989 to 1993 and 1995 to 1996 and then 1998 to 2001 :) Usa will not sanction pakistan since iran made an offer recently to pakistan after sanctions hysteria it will pay in cash for technology .

Let me give you a hint libya offered pakistan 8 billion for one bomb
Pakistanis didn`t sell the bomb. USa will not sanction pakistan mark my words mr love israel . And where pakistan and china are
you don`t know i don`t want to fill pages with stuff . Because the topic is not on military however if your hate covers your eyes
i will urge you to know that pakistan has capability
to be called a power . Even mr gaurav will approve of that .

And dont even ask about china .They are the superpower in coming years.

HIDDEN DRAGON
============================================
Spy satellite has discovered the Chinese navigation mother.

On September 27th the American Department of Defense announces the new turn of military satellite picture, 3 clearly demonstrated located in Bohai Sea one Chinese battleship ship shade, it might obviously see the spacious landing deck as well as several ship-borne machine. These the picture which the photography special-purpose satellite patted from " advanced post 3 " finally opened the Chinese navigation mother's veil. Analyzes from the picture, its landing deck , the bow shadow may judge it uses is the leap flies the type deck. The picture also demonstrates front end this ship island type construction is equipped with is similar to 167 shipboard air defense missiles. The American Department of Defense also to this shipboard ship-borne machine had the enormous interest. It is said these airplanes are ŒÅ’è—ƒ Russian fighter plane, but by no means specifically said is that kind of model. However planes look like russian Su-33.
Moscow has granted china license to make 250 Su-30Mkk .In July 2002 it was reported that China would buy around 30 Su-30MK2 naval fighters, on top of the 80 Su-30MKKs it bought in 1999 and 2001. The deal was estimated it to be worth at least $1.2 billion. The Su-30MK2, a modified version of the Su-30MKK, is a naval striker equipped with X-31A anti-ship missiles. Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association is the maker of the plane.
http://www.warmud.com/photo/xwgw/xw-0153.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su33_2.jpg

[GauravS]

Vermuz,

THe radars that pakistan is making are an early version of the Firefinder radar that India is getting.

Well as I said before we ccan argue all we want to but lets wait an year and see what materializes.

[LoveIsrael]

GS,

Good news for you

http://in.news.yahoo.com/021204/43/1yscg.html

India's light combat aircraft prototypes on display next month

Bangalore, Dec 4 (IANS) Two prototypes of India's indigenously developed fighter-bomber are expected to be demonstrated at an air show here next month.

Called the light combat aircraft (LCA), the two prototypes or technology demonstrators (TD) would fly in formation at the fourth international Aero India 2003 on February 5.
The LCA is said to be the world's smallest, lightweight fighter-bomber that will replace the ageing MiG-21 fighters in the Indian Air Force (IAF).


Indian Navy inducting sophisticated stealth frigates

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_114827,0000.htm

Indian Navy is in the process of inducting sophisticated stealth frigates, Chief of Material, Naval headquarters, Vice Admiral P C Bhasin today said.

Elaborating further, he said the Indian Navy would be developing three ships under Project-17 worth Rs 500 crore each which will have surface to surface missiles, surface to air missiles, advanced radar, fire control etc.

The radar was being developed jointly by India and Russia .

[Kolyahu]

6 mos. prior to 9/11 it was in the papers that The UN & the pope were very angry at the govt of Afghanistan. Why? for the following reasons: 1)they were tearing down the idols and images within their own borders of the deities of the Hindus and Bhuddists. 2) They were opposed to many One World Order doctrines. 3) They refused to allow women equal rights.
Those were the public ones. The not so public reasons a) They refused to allow the oil companies right-of-way to build pipelines through Afghanistan to China, without receiving any compensation for the land use, and b) The taliban was destroying the poppy fields in their country.
In ancient Israel, by the mitzvoh and mishpatim of the Torah; the
same actions would have been mandated. In fact, it is verbatim.
destroy the images of false godz; women's lib.,Not hardly; proper useage and dispossession of property; destruction of scorceries
(i.e.;pharmakaia,Gr./drugs,Eng.). Not one taliban, not one afghani was on those planes, and bin laden was CIA 4 10yrs. all in reputable news sources. Why are we attacking a torah observant government? One that was installed by the US during the Russian-Afghani war.
Torah observant muslims? Check the archives! Some traces of the descendants of Israel were found in the Mts. of Afghanistan. Observing Torah, but also muslim? Hmm,I smell a ruse.

[Vermuz]

Ukraine offers to help rehabilitate Railways, defence production

KARACHI (May 28) : Ukraine has expressed its willingness to help in the rehabilitation of Pakistan Railways and has identified more areas for future cooperation like spares for the tanks already supplied, ammunition and maintenance support machinery. Ukraine's offer of cooperation was conveyed by its Charge de Affaires in Pakistan during a meeting with the Additional Secretary, Defence Production, in Islamabad recently. The diplomat recalled that all contracts had been completed and despite strong pressures on the Ukraine government in the wake of the nuclear blast by Pakistan, the President of Ukraine had personally stated that all contractual obligations with Pakistan would be met and were met.

The Ukrainian diplomat stated that they were ready to promote cooperation. They knew that Pakistan is not in the best of times, and they were ready to promote cooperation in the engine and transmission sectors and supply all engines and spares that Pakistan required. They were even willing to redesign them for us if necessary. He also indicated that they were willing to supply additional TBOUD tanks if so desired by Pakistan.

He also informed the Secretary that Ukraine had vast industrial base as 40 percent of the military industrial complex of the former USSR was inherited by Ukraine. He indicated his government's readiness for cooperation in the Naval field also as the former fleet of USSR was built by Ukrainian shipyards. The shipyards had the capability to design and construct all types of ships including Aircraft carriers, which they could do for Pakistan. They had the know-how, but no money to build it.

On a query whether the ships would be built in Ukraine or in Pakistan, the diplomat replied that it was up to the Government of Pakistan to decide in accordance with the capacity of the shipyard. He was informed that Pakistan had design and integration problem and that is where assistance from Ukraine was needed. Pakistan wanted indigenisation as it was the need of the day. Buying a vessel was one way but building it in Pakistan was what we prefer. It was suggested that a team from Ukraine could have a look at the KSEW & PN Dockyard and in case they had an order for a ship from any country in the region, they might consider utilising these facilities. Pakistan was also trying to produce a frigate with Chinese assistance. They could make one frigate in Ukraine and their engineers, specialists and designers could come to Pakistan to make subsequent frigates in Pakistan.

It was suggested that there should be a tripartite cooperation i.e. Pakistan-China-Ukraine. Pakistan would use the expertise of Ukraine that China did not have. The Additional Secretary also indicated that they were developing a jet aircraft Super-7 with Chinese assistance. For the avionics and weapon systems, Pakistan wanted Ukraine to come and make an offer, as Ukrainian systems were as advanced as any comparable western system and cost wise very competitive.

The Ukrainian charge pointed out that AN74 transport aircraft with 10 ton load carrying or 32 paratroopers capacity, was demonstrated in Pakistan and it had used only one quarters of airstrip at Gilgit for take off. He also said that a newest Aircraft AN70 was available. Being a futuristic aircraft, they were in negotiation with the UK, Germany and USA. He also indicated that they were willing to co-produce the engine of this aircraft in Pakistan and the engine could be used in Super-7 also. A facility of this nature was established in Asfahan in Iran and they could send a team to Pakistan to study the possibility.

It was indicated that the trade imbalance was heavily in favour of Ukraine and they might import sports goods, surgical goods, carpets other consumer goods, rice etc., from Pakistan as our goods were of quality and cheap. The charge indicated that they were in perfect position to supply all the infrastructure for Railways and recalled that 89 percent of all railways of former USSR were supplied by Ukrainians factories.

=====================================
Pakistan seeks Chinese help for warships

ISLAMABAD - After launching its first domestically manufactured high tech submarine on Saturday, Pakistan is seeking China's cooperation in the building of four new surface warships, local media reported.
According to a front page report on Sunday in the English language Dawn daily, Pakistan's military government has given the go-ahead for construction of four stealthy F-22 P type frigates.

The report cited Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Abdul Aziz Mirza as saying that Islamabad now wanted to negotiate a deal with China "on a transfer of technology basis."Both Ukraine and Pakistan have already worked out design features .

"One of the (ships) will be built in China, while the remaining three will be built in Pakistan's existing facilities ... acquisition of surface ships was also a priority for the navy," the report cited Mirza as saying at the launching ceremony of Pakistan's second Agosta 90-B submarine.

Construction of the vessel -- named the SAAD after a legendary Muslim warrior -- began in 1998 and Saturday's launch brings the number of Pakistan's submarine fleet to nine, the report said.

Pakistan's first Agosta 90-B was built at the Cherbourg shipyard of the French government-owned ship-building firm Direction des Constructions Navales (DCN) and was commissioned into service in September 1999. - AFP

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dljc/QT-HW-F22_001.jpg

=======================================
RADARS
=====
Pakistan has Tpq-36 , Tpq-37 and Tpq-43 in inventory already and produces version too.

=======================================
Super-7 To Be In Action By June 2003: Air Chief
Janes Defence
systems check
http://www.war-sky.com/lb5000/usr/7/7_1313_3.jpg
http://www.fighter-jets.de/fighterjets/flugzeuge/fc1.jpg
Shows its strike capability with different missiles which will be introduced with it
http://forum.jczs.sina.com.cn/groups/airforce/upload/1038223671_Img202984636.jpg
Laser guided Gps mode bombing strike missions and pinpointed laser guided missiles and nuke strike capability.

To make things settled pakistan will operationalize the Pakistani satellite by dec-23
http://www.satnewsasia.com/IMAGES/palapa-c__1-2aug2002.jpg
it will be linked for joint strike missions .

An action similar to india as india wants to use insat satellite for lca to keep things settled in case usa shuts up international communication modes the aircraft of pakistan and india can use own country satellites.

Both pakistan and india are investing lot into this with india sending insat a , insat b , insat c for the purpose . Pakistan has gone for badr -1 not military but has sent badr-2 and paksat and will launch paksat - 2 next year and has contract with usa for more development of military satellites in next 4 to 5 years and their launches . Both india and pakistan plan many launches soon in coming times. Pakistan has developed 7 new global satellite stations in quick move . Their general mirza was saying that pakistan`s satellite launch vehicle will be available to international customers very soon much before world critics had guessed.
http://www.fas.org/spp/guide/china/launch/CZ-2E-3.jpg
Pakistan launches research military rehbar vehicle
http://www.pac.org.pk/KARF/grifo5.jpg
http://www.pac.org.pk/KARF/grifo6.jpg
http://www.suparco.gov.pk/rahber.gif
http://www.pac.org.pk/KARF/grifo7.jpg

Rahnuma vehicle
http://www.suparco.gov.pk/rahnuma.jpg

Indian slv
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/09/13/images/2002091306150101.jpg

Chinese global positioning system under development
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/technology/gps/images/techgp0038.jpg
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/technology/gps/images/techgp0038a.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/images/china-long-march-3a-launch-bg.jpg
With india and pakistan having satellite launch vehicles the reports are both will go for limited arsenals of intercontinental ballistic missiles in coming years with india aready naming its interncontinental ballistic missile programme as surya while pakistan has not given much details except some reports that it is Tipu missile.
=====
PS : MR Gaurav and MR LoveIsrael if you are offended by anything i post since i feel that you don`t approve of it i will stop it righttt there .

Have a nice day all of you guyz and please take care.

[Vermuz]

Pakistan shows a new advanced tactical unmanned aerial vehicle
technology .
The system has capability to fire bunker buster version of anti tank missiles "baktar shikan" on board unmanned vehicle together with a hunter sight and automatic target selection.

All systems are controlled by computers .The system has been developed by aero pakistan and has been ordered recently by saudia arabia . Turkey has also shown interest in system as it wants to stop kurds on border.

Systems display various systems functioning controlling the vehicle flight.

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/mcs_pakistan[1].jpg

[Kolyahu]

[Quote] The enemy of my enemy, is my freind for now.[Unquote]-Ayatolah Komeini '79.
W-88 nuclear secrets missing from Los alamos, US plane taken captive, Charlie Trang and Clintons, White House computer files missing when Bush Admin. arrives,some containing ATC radar signature and other secretive maps for East coast. Right after WTC attack a company in N.Texas is awarded $230Billion, military contract. stocks down but weapons sales have sky rocketted.
corruption, guns, money, what else have I missed. Oh yeah the communist Chinese want your friendship, I forgot. Ever heard of ChiCom and its' involvement in the'Nam. It ain't over til the fat lady sings. You want Israel to make an alliance with the dragon of the east? I love China and the Chinese people, but leave Bolshevism and its' Chinese equivalent behind. There is a better way, they just haven't found out where it begins.

[Mr. Pumps]

Ddo you even know china has more nuclear submarines than
even russia .
China is making stealth destroyers and frigates , nuke subs.
Their aircraft carrier has been spotted by us spy satellite on sept
27 ,2002 , GOD where are you mr love israel china has more
classes of warships than soviets what to talk of russians.
You are really sleeping . I dont blame you for that . also about
usa ; defence sec of usa is in pakistan now to give letter from
mr bush to pakistani pres . Aid ??? where .

I have to respond to this disinformation What you say Mr. Vermuz is nonsense.

First, the Russians have seventeen Akula 1 and 2 class Submarines vastly more potent than ANY of the aged six Chinese operated Nuke Subs or it's pathetic one SSBN submarine based on 70's soviet designs.

Secondly, the Chinese Navy is bigger than then Russian/Soviet navy, but that is so because of the hundreds of obsolete Patrol missile boats operating in the Chinese Navy. Infact, I bet one almost 900 foot Kirov Battlecruiser could take out the entire Chinese bluewater fleet quite easily if given a chance. The Chinese have no good ships except the Russian SS-N-22 armed destroyers made in Russia and designed in Russia. Period. They lack SAM capability and Modern Electronic radar. A Kirov could soak up any Chinese missile like the C-802 SSM like a sponge.

[Vermuz]

Umm let me help you .

AKULA
1- AKULA is the best atomic sub in the region at this time .


2-Bad economy . Subs being transferred to china and recently two were agreed for india.

CHINESE BOUGHT nuke SUBS from russiaat china`s DALIAN port .

http://www.warmud.com/photo/xwgw/xw-0002.jpg

http://www.warmud.com/photo/xwgw/xw-0224.jpg

NEWS
=====

China has a huge submarine arsenal and now introducing which will make china the best nuke submarine maker on par with americans.I don`t say anything without proof since i have to make presentations to representatives too .

CHINESE SUB CLASSES BEING INTRODUCED IN FEW YEARS.

T-93 - 1

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dljc/093_003.jpg

T-93-2

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dljc/093_005.jpg

T-93-1 AND T-94 BOOMER

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dljc/093_006.jpg

T-94 BOOMER

http://www.warmud.com/photo/dljc/094_002.jpg

Also


1-NEWCON SSBN -

2-Improved Xia SSBN

3-NEWCON SSN

4-improved Han SSN

[Vermuz]

During recent visit in china Russia agreed to sell most of it decommissioned Typhoon class nuclear submarines to china untill Chinese Boomer joins service to take charge as lead nuclear submarine.

China and Iran are the buyers of Scorpion submarine from Russia which russians developed to have capability to fire missiles that can attack a carrier group.

As nuclear fleets bulge on other side of Asia russia has asked usa to help dispose off its nuclear submarines with new aid . According to plan russian nuclear attack fleet will be slashed to less than 20 by 2005 and to little more than 10 by 2010 .

[GauravS]

Originally posted by Vermuz
During recent visit in china Russia agreed to sell most of it decommissioned Typhoon class nuclear submarines to china untill Chinese Boomer joins service to take charge as lead nuclear submarine.

China and Iran are the buyers of Scorpion submarine from Russia which russians developed to have capability to fire missiles that can attack a carrier group.

As nuclear fleets bulge on other side of Asia russia has asked usa to help dispose off its nuclear submarines with new aid . According to plan russian nuclear attack fleet will be slashed to less than 20 by 2005 and to little more than 10 by 2010 .
Vermuz,

Russia does not even produce any nuclear or otherwise submarine by the name of Scorpion or any combination there of. and the capability to attack carrier groups comes with any sub that can fire a missile.

[Mr. Pumps]

Many of these "new" submarines are hypothetical, India too wants SSBN subs but that is not likely to happen.

China needs Russia, but with solid US-Russian relations all these designs will never make it past prototype stage.

No matter what you say the Chinese navy is still obsolete so to expect some vast miracle to happen in the PLAN is foolhardy.

[LoveIsrael]

Mr Vermuz,

I appreciate your effort but Ignorance is bliss.

I can post many articles by Russian , US & even Chinese acknowledging the fact that Chinese navy is challenged by India.

American and Indian naval ships are jointly patrolling the Strait of Malacca to protect commercial shipping making chinese nervous.

According to Commander Fred Levien, Chairman, Information Warfare Curriculum:
If India is to assert itself as the regional superpower, it is imperative for it to exert its influence over strategic maritime “choke-points” such as the Malacca Straits and the Persian Gulf.


In creating a viable blue-water reach, including refueling and support craft, India will significantly surpass China's naval capabilities as well.


Russia provides India with the best available technology.

India is also getting its second Aircraft Carrier - Admiral Gorshkov.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
AKULA
1- AKULA is the best atomic sub in the region at this time .
------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/akula2.html


Too bad that India is getting AKULA -II .

The American Improved Los Angeles class silencing is compared to the Akuka II.

This turnaround was painfully evident when US officials recently acknowledged for the first time that US submarines could not readily locate an Akula submarine operating off the coast of the USA. "It is difficult to find the most advanced Russian Akula-II class submarines when they operate at tactical speed or less ," Admiral Jeremy Boorda said.


The Akula-II is the quietest Russian nuclear submarine ever designed, and the low noise levels came as a surprise to Western intelligence. Russia claims the Akula is the quietest of its domestically built submarines and is fitted with acoustic countermeasure equipment. Noise reduction efforts include rafting the propulsion plant, anechoic tiles on the outside and inside of the hulls and possibly other measures such as active noise cancellation.

[GauravS]

Here is the transcript of a report from a newspaper in India, got it from the ACIG forum

Last year, MK Amnon Rubinstein led an Israeli parliamentary delegation on a visit to India. The delegation received an especially warm welcome, and there was much local interest. On their visit to Karla, in southern part of the subcontinent, ubinstein was the guest of the local television studio and was interviewed on Indian-Israeli relations. When the young interviewer asked why such a deep closeness, devoid of bad feeling, had developed between the countries, Rubinstein replied that the reason was bound up, among other things, with the fact that India is perhaps the only country where there have been no expressions of anti-Semitism toward the local Jewish community. The interviewer asked Rubinstein in all seriousness: "Excuse me sir, what is anti-Semitism?"
Rubinstein gaped astounded at his interviewer for a moment, then hugged him spontaneously, and declared that this was the most pleasing response that he could have wished for. The interview made waves, and the national television station of New Delhi reported it. Rubinstein: "The impression that I gained on this visit is that apart from the United States, the warmth toward Israel on the part of India has no equal."
Relations between India and Israel were never better. This year, both countries marked the tenth anniversary of the establishment of full diplomatic relations between them. In this short period, Israel has become one of India's important arms suppliers, second only to Russia, and threatening to take its place. India has become Israel's largest defense export target. Until a few years ago, both countries pursued an extra-cautious policy on the public nature of their bilateral ties, but today Major General Uzi Dayan, until recently the head of the National Security Council [NSC], describes the link as "a special strategic relationship," a definition that includes not only military cooperation, but ideological and strategic closeness on matters connected with the world balance of forces.
The closeness between the only democracies in the zone lying between
the Mediterranean Sea and the Indian subcontinent derives in large part from the fact that both face a perpetual threat from radical Islam. Reserves Colonel Dr. Eran Lerman, who until this year served in a senior position in Intelligence Branch, was drawn into a somewhat surrealistic situation when he delivered a lecture last year to a delegation from the Indian National Security Council, which also included senior Indian
generals.
Lerman: "I found myself defending the good name of Islam in civilization, and directing its problematic nature to modern aberrations of totalitarian Islamism. Facing me were the Indian generals, and they came out with a strong attack on Islam in general. It was very interesting. Imagine for yourself an IDF general defending Islam in the face of a very aggressive attack by a general from a foreign army. Definitely an absurd situation."

[LoveIsrael]

Israel flies in Heron UAVs for INDIA :)
Newindpress.com :

KOCHI: With the arrival of the first batch of two Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) from Israel, the Southern Naval Command here is all set to become the first major UAV base in India . The UAVs were brought to the Cochin International Airport on Tuesday morning on a jumbo aircraft of El-Al Israel Airlines. Termed as a highly classified consignment, the 'equipment' were later transported to the Naval base on several trucks.

The infrastructure for setting the UAV base is already complete at the base. The UAVs would soon be assembled and the first test-flights are expected within a week. The Heron UAV system is an operational fourth generation long-endurance medium-altitude vehicle. It works on cutting-edge technology with new fully automatic take-off and landing features. It provides deep-penetration, wide-area coverage, real-time intelligence to national agencies, theatre commanders and lower echelons.

The Heron provides ample modular space up to 250 kg for 'customer furnished equipment' and has demonstrated 52 hours of continuous flight. The UAVs would undertake surveillance of the Indian Ocean region which has gained considerable strategic importance in the last decade. The Herons can be used for surveillance, reconnaissance, target-acquisition and artillery adjustment. It can fly at an altitude of 30,000 ft. It weighs 1,100 kg and the maximum payload weight is 250 kg. The UAV's overall length is 8.50 m and wingspan is 16.60 m. It is powered by Powerplant Dual engines. The Navy is expecting the next batch by mid-2003.

[LoveIsrael]

Ordnance factory to export gun material to Israel

----------------------------------------------

The ordnance factory in Jabalpur is planning to export gun material of the 125 mm tank destroyer to Israel.
The Factory spokesman said on Saturday that the samples of the gun material had been sent to Israel for testing and approval.

The private-owned defence company, Soltam of Israel, which at present is busy in improving material in the local gun carriage factory, had shown willingness to purchase the gun material.

The preliminary talks between Indian and Israeli governments had been already completed and efforts are on to have the last round of talks to finalise the purchase of gun material, the spokesman added.

[NewsGuy]

ok, with over 200 posts in this subject, it's becoming just too long to keep up with. Time to close it.

Feel free to pick up the subject again in a new thread.