Future Chinese, Indian, Israeli Alliance

[Mr. Pumps]

:) Don't think this is a possibility.

Well China will not support Pakistan forever if the turkish cultured Muslims in it's northwestern Uighur territory push their fight to another level.

At this point the Chinese are tolerent of Pakinsan, but any large uprising in the Uigher province will make the Chinese cold to Pakistan and all Muslims.

When that happens, the leadership in Beijing will realise alot more is gained by joining forces with the good ol Hindus, who are inturn friendswith the state of Israel, than some fanatical Muslim republic.

The 1 billion India and tiny 6 Million Israel became best buddies because of the Islamic misquito created for them a huge itch. Well, Israeli fans... once the Chinese are bitten enough by the Islamic bug to fell a huge itch don't expect them to be on the side of any Muslim nation.

Israel would do good to cater to both India and China as allies.

[Mr. Pumps]

If Israel in the middle of the abyss, the Han Chinese are experiencing:

"China's 'Chechnya': a power keg of mistrust, hatred

By Liz Sly Chicago Tribune, 10/19/99
<<Boston Globe>>"

Do you honestly think if a Islamic explosion happens it this area of China, Beijing will not harden to Muslims.

If there is a major full scale conflict with Islam all over the globe and the situation explodes .China, Israel, Russia and India will all be active involved agianst the Islamic horde.

So make the friends now to prevent isolation tommorrow when a helping hand or friend would have done some good.

[redcake]

I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?

[takeo]

those chinese were uygur-fundamentalist fighters, not exactly in service of the Communist Party...
those theories don't work, russia is already faced with violence from islamic origin, as well as Yougoslavia and china, but those countries are good friends with other Muslim countries as iraq, Syria, Libia, or Iran.
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
Those countries don't think as you guys, they don't see the muslim world as one entity, because they know every country is different, you can't say the "Islamic world" as one entity as you can't compare ethiopia and Poland because they are both christian...
india is the ennemy of pakistan, not of the entire Islamic world, China is the ennemy of Uygur separatists (and their afghan friends), not of the entire Islamic world, etc.

[Night_Flight]

do you all think that alliances should be establish according to religon?

i have the impression that you want alliances for israel that have problems with muslims.

is it about religon or geography? i know israel are all surrounded by arab-muslims countries and they dont let israel to live in peace.

but this thought is wrong. iran is also muslim but israel and iran were allies in the 70's

turkey is also muslim. and Turkey is the greatest ally of israel now.

[MGB8]

You forget that the cold war ended failry recently.

Putin has been fairly warm to Israel.

While Russia still has alliance, particularly in arms-selling, with many Muslim nations, the fact that it produces its own oil and the greater the islamic fundamentalist threat, the less tolerant Russia will be of the countries that support and encourage that threat: ie. Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Syria, Lybia, Iraq.




Originally posted by takeo
those chinese were uygur-fundamentalist fighters, not exactly in service of the Communist Party...
those theories don't work, russia is already faced with violence from islamic origin, as well as Yougoslavia and china, but those countries are good friends with other Muslim countries as iraq, Syria, Libia, or Iran.
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
Those countries don't think as you guys, they don't see the muslim world as one entity, because they know every country is different, you can't say the "Islamic world" as one entity as you can't compare ethiopia and Poland because they are both christian...
india is the ennemy of pakistan, not of the entire Islamic world, China is the ennemy of Uygur separatists (and their afghan friends), not of the entire Islamic world, etc.

[redcake]

I'm still at a loss as to how anyone could construe China as a potential
partner for Israel.

Turkey at least had a history of religious tolerance during the Ottoman rule.
The Iran-Israel connection started a lot more covert, and was more about arms trading then mutual relations...so it's a terrible comparison.

There is a union of Muslim nations that we can't ignore. Even if they hate each other, it's been enough to unite them with dillusional dreams of a holy war. Any country that funds, or fuels this dream in any way can't possibly be a good "friend of Israel" candidate (and yes I question how loyal the US has been of late)

[kauffner]

For all three countries, their relationship with the U.S. is far more important than their relationships with each other. If, say, Israel is pro-American while China is anti-American, I don't see how they can be allies. Once the U.S. liberates Iraq, the whole worldwide Islamic threat issue will look dated and no one will be forming alliances to oppose Islam.

[takeo]

Iraq is not a fundamentalist country, Islam is much less important than Arab nationalism for the iraqi regime;
I agree however that the relations with the US are more important than shared religious values.
Russia is already 10 year faced with fundamentalist terror, particularly in Tchechnia, yet the relations with Iran, Iraq and Libia became much closer than before... (ps: all of those countries have no relations whatsoever with the Chechens, who were supported only by the Taliban, that's all that matters for the Russians)

[Evgeni]

Russia will be parters with anyone who buys russian products. this was a mistake for russia because now in grozny we see russian Ak-94 fighting Chechen Ak-47.

[Vic]

Originally posted by redcake
I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?
There were some Uygurs there, who are not exactly Chinese: http://www.uygur.org . But then the Taliban employed - trainees? mercenaries? - from the whole world.

[Mr. Pumps]

I once heard a saying" Dire situations makes for strange bedbuddies".

With that, I wonder if multiple situations exploded at once like the India-Pakistan standoff, Israel-Palestian conflict, ethnic unstability in China and Russia would these nations not beome unified, leaving America in the Dark with NATO.

[elke]

I don't see Israel ever really not being friends with the US. While China is a powerful nation, and will likely become even more powerful, they have much catching up to do in order to even come close to the US in international clout. Israel needs all the help it can get, as far as international support is concerned, and neither India nor China will be able to provide it for many years to come.

Aside from that, there is something to be said for basic similarities and long-term amity also. While relations between countries are usually based on strategic interests rather than on friendly feelings, when a situation does not affect one's strategic interest, that country will act based on its affinities.

[takeo]

what are the affinities between Russia/India/China/Yougoslavia/israel except that they fight people who seem to belong to the muslim faith?
China is the one of best friends and weapon-suppliers of Iran, it also has excellent relations with Pakistan.

[elke]

Mostly, strategic interests here - and not only fighting the same types of people.

[Mr. Pumps]

The billion Muslims of the world should wage a Jihad against Israel, India, China, Russia and the US. They will be no more and only Islam will rule all over the world."

-Al Badr militants quoted in Nawa-I-waqt 21st November 2000

Here is your reason.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
The billion Muslims of the world should wage a Jihad against Israel, India, China, Russia and the US. They will be no more and only Islam will rule all over the world."

-Al Badr militants quoted in Nawa-I-waqt 21st November 2000

Here is your reason.

"Politics make strange bedfellows" - and militant Muslims make even stranger ones :D

[takeo]

not only China, Russia, india, etc. hate those extremists, but as well many Muslim countries, not in the last place Iran...
I can't imagine ayatollah Khamenei being my bedfellow...

[elke]

OK, now we are getting rowdy! Calm down, Takeo! :)

[takeo]

I know, it's becoming embarrassing :o
I had some other comment but will keep my mouth shut... :)

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by takeo
not only China, Russia, india, etc. hate those extremists, but as well many Muslim countries, not in the last place Iran...
I can't imagine ayatollah Khamenei being my bedfellow...

Not really Iran is a terrorist sponser, in private many Muslim nations cater to Militant nonsense.

[takeo]

yes, but not the same militant nonsense...

Iran was one of the harshest ennemies of the taliban.

[Evgeni]

there are millions of muslims in Russia, the rebublic of Tatarstan is 50% muslim. russia's problem is with chechnya not Palestine.

[Pushtak18]

Originally Posted by Takeo
Iran was one of the harshest ennemies of the taliban.


The reason that Iran and the Taliban don't like each other is because of 2 major points;

1) Iran is a Sh'iite Muslim country and the Taliban are mostly made up of Sunni Muslims who come from Arab countires.
Sh'iite muslims are kinda having problems right now in places like Pakistan, where they killed a couple of people not so long ago. Sunni's call them traitors and persecute them where possible.

2) Iran hates Taliban, because of the drug import to Iran. Don't get me wrong, Iran has enough Drugs inside there borders growing, but the taliban also had some drug import to the country. Many people would say that the Taliban were against Drugs in all forms, but that was the case, because what they would do when they would just break-even, is that they would ship Opium to Iran for money that the dealers give them.
How does this match Iran...
Well simply because in the past 3 years, about 105 Border Soldiers from Iran were either kidnapped, shoot, mutilated or maimed by one of the taliban.

Also, Iran has a drug abuse problem. Iran doesn't not talk about it, but to this date, 4-8 Million people are doing drugs in Iran and around 2 million of that are hard drug takers who use Cocaine and Opium. Due to the hard-line image, there is no help and no international critism that is being made.

So now, you ask why Taliban and Iran aren't the best of pals?

[Mediocrates]

The reason that Iran and the Taliban don't like each other is..


yeah - some beauty contest.

[Mr. Pumps]

Iran and the Iraq did'nt like each other but now the whole arab world is uniting. So Iran and the Taliban never liked each other, but the more American involvement is given to the Northern alliance, the more Iran will turn to someone else like the Taliban.

And Russia if not Fighting Chechens only they are fighting Arab Mujahadeen form around the World in Chechnya.

[takeo]

"there are millions of muslims in Russia, the rebublic of Tatarstan is 50% muslim. russia's problem is with chechnya not Palestine."

absolutely

yes, pushtak, that's right... and I would add that they also hate eachother because it's a whole different kind of fundamentalism, the Taliban being much more extremist, and Iran is an ally of Russia and China, while the Taliban was the worst ennemy of those countries. And last but not least the Haaraza minority has been oppressed and persecuted by the Taliban, and those people have very close links with the Iranian regime.
The northern alliance has always been an ally of Iran, since the days of the Soviet-invasion, so Iran is quite friendly to the new regime.
it is true the differences between iran and Iraq, which are still very wide, are diminushing primarily because of the US-policy against Iraq which is criticised in the whole Muslim-world AND in Russia and China, and because the war-mongering "axis of evil-speech", which brought the two treatened countries closer together.

[Pushtak18]

Both Iraq and Iran have opened new diplomatic alliances with each other. After the 1980-1988 Iran/Iraq war, they have signed a treaty proclaiming reconcilation with one another.


through out the years that followed, Iraq and Iran didn't do much. As far as i can remember, there was problems in January of 2001, where Scud missiles were exchanged at the border between Iraq and Iran.

Moreover, Iraq supports groups that want to overthrow the Ayatollah's, vice-verca, the Iranians have groups like the kurds and other small minority's including the Sh'iites that live in Iraq to try and overthrow saddam hussien.

But any any account, Iran/Iraq already had agreements for air space and probably will be getting some free trade maybe.

The Chechens were some chechens, but there was alot of Arabs who joined the fight.

[takeo]

that's right about Iraq-iran.

yes, extremists connected to the Taliban supported the chechens, but no Iranians, Palestinians, etc. and also no Muslims from other regions in Russia who live in peace.
by the way Chechens are supported by Georgia as well, a Christian nation.

[Mediocrates]

Are there any other terrorist organizations or nations besides the PLO and its ilk you support too?

[Pushtak18]

takeo,


Georgia does not support Chechnya, no one does!! And in Georgia you can find some muslims. But the question here is that there is Palestinians and Iranians in Chechnya. Can i say that there directly from Gaza/West Bank...maybe, but there is some.


Also, go to the Kurdistan area, where Arabs are fighting the kurds and you'll find plenty of Palestinians who are fighting! I saw the documentry about it and there was an interview by a Rebel who was from Jericho!

So don't hide nothing, crook!

[elke]

Georgians are by and large, Russian Orthodox Christians, not Muslim. IMHO, any support the Georgians have for the Chechens is either due to blackmail, or anti-Russian feelings.

[takeo]

I would bet on the last option...
maybe your mother knows more about it ;)

Palestinians fighting in Kurdistan???
I am still very angry that our country didn't help the Kurdish leader Ocalan!
Palestinians fighting in Chechnia??????

yes, mediocrates, i support the PKK in Turkey (some friends organised some manifestations for the Kurds), who fight for their freedom as well, and the polisario-front in Western Sahara, occupied by Morocco. I also have some sympathy for guerilla-organisations in Latin America such as the zapatistas, and for the IRA in Northern Ireland.

[Pushtak18]

takeo,

There was a documentary that was made 4 months after Sept .11 called "THE FIGHT IN KURDISTAN" it showed the daily fighting that goes on between Kurds and Arab fighters. There were palestinians there fighting, as well as Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese and Yemenese, they were all interviewed...

Arabs did help in Chechnya and i am positive that Palestinians were involved in the fighting as well. Are u trying to defend palestinain foreign terrorist?

Why not defend the 1994 Nerve Gas bombing of the Japanese subway system by that blind dude! It was the master work of the Palestinians PLFP. Going to deny that also mr sympathizer?

Your support for international terror groups will only lead you to one thing...A stright bullet in the middle of the forehead!

I just can't wait to see a terror group, blowing off your legs in a bus you taking through paris!

It will happen! it will!

[takeo]

"There was a documentary that was made 4 months after Sept .11 called "THE FIGHT IN KURDISTAN" it showed the daily fighting that goes on between Kurds and Arab fighters. There were palestinians there fighting, as well as Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese and Yemenese, they were all interviewed... "

let me guess, a documentory of the israeli television?
do you even know where Kurdistan is and what countries have Kurdish minorities?

One of the greatest oppressers of the Kurds is nato-ally Turkey...

"Arabs did help in Chechnya and i am positive that Palestinians were involved in the fighting as well. Are u trying to defend palestinain foreign terrorist? "

I have never heard of Palestinians involved in chechnia, i know some Arab extremists linked to Al-Quaida fight on the chechens side (wahhabits, as far as i know Wahhabitism is not existing in Palestine)

Why not defend the 1994 Nerve Gas bombing of the Japanese subway system by that blind dude! It was the master work of the Palestinians PLFP. Going to deny that also mr sympathizer? "

OK, the PLFP bombed the Japanese subway? :rolleyes:

"Your support for international terror groups will only lead you to one thing...A stright bullet in the middle of the forehead! "

so you think Turkish policy against the Kurdish people is all-right? that Kurds are only right to resist if they live in an Arab country?

"I just can't wait to see a terror group, blowing off your legs in a bus you taking through paris! "

you're too kind...

"It will happen! it will!"

sure...the last terrorist attack in Paris was in the middle of the 90's, I don't remember if anyone was killed. but still i think YOU have slightly more chance of being blown in the air than me... and your palestinian brothers have even more chance of being blown in the air by an israeli missile, automatic gun or tank.

[Mediocrates]

I WAS there. The bombing of the Mt. St. Michel Metro station. I think about 67 French persons were slaughtered. And some PLO offshoot claimed responsibility. One week later a trashcan bomb went off near the Louvre and killed 6 or 7

I find it hard to believe you don't remember. All the public garbage cans in Paris we're bolted shut and garbage piled up in the streets - it was August, imagine the stench.

[Pushtak18]

"let me guess, a documentory of the israeli television?
do you even know where Kurdistan is and what countries have Kurdish minorities?"

No, it was on MSNBC, it was showing it at around 7PM. And yes; the countries that have Kurdish minorities are Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and i think there is a small little community in Lebanon, i am not sure about it. But on any account there is fighting in the kurd region and the aggressors are arabs, some come from Pakistan, but you can't ignore the fact that there are palestinians fighting against the kurds. This is something you had to digest in your sick mind...After all, Palestinians aren't gods gift to women, are they?

"One of the greatest oppressers of the Kurds is nato-ally Turkey..."

True, that turkey still oppresses the Kurds, but there is talk. I wouldn't assume that you would have Iraq on that list of oppressed people, cause i they did the most damadge to them!

"I have never heard of Palestinians involved in chechnia, i know some Arab extremists linked to Al-Quaida fight on the chechens side (wahhabits, as far as i know Wahhabitism is not existing in Palestine)"

True, and some Al-Quida members are palestinians, if you are so sure that palestinians did not fight in Chechnya, than you must have known the army bases and terror camps in Chechnya to have known all fighters and to ask them personally in Arabic if there from Palestinian origings or not, think about it.....
Muslims came all around to fight this one, and there are plenty of palestinians who go. Infact, i'll give you a good direction of how they went through. What they did was go in Jordan, and from Jordan head to Iran and then to Chechnya. That is one route i heard they took...

"OK, the PLFP bombed the Japanese subway?"

No, they didn't bomb it, they masterminded it. It was the religou cult leader who had committed the act, and it wasn't a bomb, it was nerve gas. The Palestinians must have created it and then logiticly moved it to the subway.
Palestinians and Japanese groups have always been in good hand. I never heard much about the incident thought, when it happened the Palestinian Committe office was searched and then closed for 3 months in Japan after that. So maybe there was a huge connection between the japanese terror cell, the PFLP and even the PA-PLO!!!! Be careful when you underestimate this!

"so you think Turkish policy against the Kurdish people is all-right? that Kurds are only right to resist if they live in an Arab country?"

I think there is a sort of diplomacy that Kurds have with the Turkish government, but i think it is still low level. The problem that we have in the middle east with Israel and Palestinians is more important and many are ignoring it. I think there will be a comprisable peace, but you have to understand...when Kurdistan will want independence (just like your crooks, "PALESTINIANS") than they will ask for land twice as bigger than Israel and in the land range of Turkey-Syria-Iran-Iraq. There is a lot of blame on both sides on this, and i think there should be a 5 ring conference that will deal it out, but right now 3 out of the 5 delegates aren't willing to risk talking with the kurds, ironicly they are the arab countires....what do you know?


"sure...the last terrorist attack in Paris was in the middle of the 90's, I don't remember if anyone was killed. but still i think YOU have slightly more chance of being blown in the air than me... and your palestinian brothers have even more chance of being blown in the air by an israeli missile, automatic gun or tank."

TAKEO

Didn't say there will be terror attacks, but how can u think that your just free in france to roam around. Terror is uninvitable thing. And when you encourage and promote terror, than one day it will come to your shores. And then you will ask yourself, many questions, or better yet....other people will ask you!
Palestinians aren't my brothers..... If they were they would have some sanity of acting like it. Just because Arafat cause me a Cousin and then interupts the interviewer and calls Israelis Nazis doesn't really mean he is very close to us, no?
As for the missile talk, well...... Palestinians are asking for it, and most of the palestinians who have been "blown off" are the ones who commit to terror and are getting the go ahead from the PA.

Remember, there were steps to not have a Palestinian terrorist killed! Israel gave letters after letter to PA, and to the US, and to EU and to every diplomat who came to the region, and it didn't work. So in other words "If Palestinians cannot take out the trash, the Israelis will" and we'll take care of him for free!!

[takeo]

"I WAS there. The bombing of the Mt. St. Michel Metro station. I think about 67 French persons were slaughtered. And some PLO offshoot claimed responsibility. One week later a trashcan bomb went off near the Louvre and killed 6 or 7

I find it hard to believe you don't remember. All the public garbage cans in Paris we're bolted shut and garbage piled up in the streets - it was August, imagine the stench.
"


the last attacks, all of them on metro-stations, were in 1995 (Saint-Michel metro-station, 8 casualties, and Musée d'Orsay, no casualties) and 1996(2 casualties), the one before dating back to 1986.
The responsible has been convicted in 1999 and was Algerian, linked to the Algerian extremist organisation GIA.

http://www.protectioncivile.org/Activite/1982-1999/activite_1982_1999.htm

At the moment of those attacks in 1995 i was not in Paris, but i remember quite well the attack of 1996 in the Port-Royal station, which i used quite often.
It is right that no trash-cans were allowed in the metro, as terrorists could hide their bomb in it. And all people were suspicious of a bag that was left, more than one suitcase or rucksack has been "demined"... In that period suicide-bombing was not yet a world-wide fasion...

[cerulean]

It was July 25, 1995 at the Saint-Michel subway station in Paris. The casualty figures were less than Mediocrates recalls. It killed seven and wounded over one hundred.

Do you remember it now takeo?

[Mediocrates]

thank you for the clarification -

[takeo]

Arabs are oppressing Kurds, that's absolutely right, most of all in Iraq, but i never heard of palestinians involved in this. Talks with Kurds in Turkey? You must be kidding, the turkish regime has refused all talks with "terrorists" and keeps destroying whole villages in Kurdistan or "eastern anatolia" as they prefere to call it... Turkey and iraq are together the greatest ennemies of the Kurdish people, but in Iraq the repression stopped since the gulf-war whereas in Turkey it is going on full speed, WITH US-assistance (the us also assisted in the capture of "terrorist" Ocalan in Kenya). (but neither are occupying kurdistan, as they act inside the international borders of their country, except Turkey that regularly invade Kurdish Iraq). it is strange that suddenly you feel that Kurds aren't so innocent after all if fighting the Turks, but of course ANYONE fighting the Arabs must be right. There is no negociation whatsoever between the PKK and Turkey, in fact you can risk imprisonment for just talking Kurdish...
The Turkish generals have a lot in common with Sharon, "no talks with TERRORISTS".



I have never been to chechen terror camps to search for Palestinians, neither have you i assume...

Your "route" is BS, Iran is not helping the Chechens, on the contrary, it will never do anything against the interests of Moscow, its most important ally. actually the normal route for Chechen terrorists goes trough nato-ally Turkey (quite sympathetic to the Chechens) and of course Georgia, the safe heaven for Chechen terrorists. Iran has no border with Tchechnia, nor Azerbaidjan.

"No, they didn't bomb it, they masterminded it. It was the religou cult leader who had committed the act, and it wasn't a bomb, it was nerve gas. The Palestinians must have created it and then logiticly moved it to the subway.
Palestinians and Japanese groups have always been in good hand. I never heard much about the incident thought, when it happened the Palestinian Committe office was searched and then closed for 3 months in Japan after that. So maybe there was a huge connection between the japanese terror cell, the PFLP and even the PA-PLO!!!! Be careful when you underestimate this! "

LOL :rolleyes: impressive evidence and credibility of your complot-theory... , i guess the PFLP had connections with T. McVeigh too...

"Terror is uninvitable thing. And when you encourage and promote terror, than one day it will come to your shores."

that's right, the uS got its fair share for promoting terrorism in Afghanistan in the 80's...

"Palestinians are asking for it"

of course every oppressor will say that its victims "were asking for it" (just saw a documentory about operation barbarossa, the german soldiers killing 1000's of ukrainian civilians said the same sentence...)

[elke]

Actually, there is some evidence that Timothy McVeigh was in contact with MidEastern groupies of some sort. I will have to look at this more, but from what I understand, there were meetings between T. McVeigh and...I don't remember who they said it was, but whoever was from ME.

[takeo]

:confused:
That's the first time i read this...
i tought he was a rightwing fanatic fighting against "UN-domination of america" or something like that... .

I think that the PFLP was responsible for Wako too... :cool:

[elke]

He was a right-wing fanatic, but this news show I saw said that he was looking to buy something or other from the MidEastern guy. From what they said, it didn't sound like a "conspiracy" type of thing, but rather a "business relationship".

That was before the surgery, and I did have a few Percosets :) ; but I do remember it.

[Pushtak18]

"Arabs are oppressing Kurds, that's absolutely right, most of all in Iraq, but i never heard of palestinians involved in this. Talks with Kurds in Turkey? You must be kidding, the turkish regime has refused all talks with "terrorists" and keeps destroying whole villages in Kurdistan or "eastern anatolia" as they prefere to call it... Turkey and iraq are together the greatest ennemies of the Kurdish people, but in Iraq the repression stopped since the gulf-war whereas in Turkey it is going on full speed, WITH US-assistance (the us also assisted in the capture of "terrorist" Ocalan in Kenya). (but neither are occupying kurdistan, as they act inside the international borders of their country, except Turkey that regularly invade Kurdish Iraq). it is strange that suddenly you feel that Kurds aren't so innocent after all if fighting the Turks, but of course ANYONE fighting the Arabs must be right. There is no negociation whatsoever between the PKK and Turkey, in fact you can risk imprisonment for just talking Kurdish...
The Turkish generals have a lot in common with Sharon, "no talks with TERRORISTS".

Im not sure what the organization calls themselves, somehting like Al-Qanon (like al-qieda) whom fight in the mountins with Kurds, there isn't much, there just shooting back in forth at one another. Palestinians from both Jordan and West bank and fighting with them and have been documented, there is even some leaders who call themselves Palestinians.......
Turkey in the past have had talks with the Kurds. Israel doesn't not have anything to do with Turkey because we unfortunetly have to negotiate with Terrorist, while the turkish don't, its all International diplomacy and its not fair!!! But Turkey made some truce with them over the years, and towards the arrest of Oclean in 1998, the PKK committed some shoot outs and kidnapps. Infact, ever since his arrest, there was a drop of attacks on turk's and even a drop in Trafficing, somehow...
if i was turkey i would have slid open Oclean's throat!!!!
Remember, Kurds and Israel has good relations in all, but when you bring up PKK and terror you cannot have one hand that shakes and a knife in the other, its just not 'kosher'!


"I have never been to chechen terror camps to search for Palestinians, neither have you i assume...

Your "route" is BS, Iran is not helping the Chechens, on the contrary, it will never do anything against the interests of Moscow, its most important ally. actually the normal route for Chechen terrorists goes trough nato-ally Turkey (quite sympathetic to the Chechens) and of course Georgia, the safe heaven for Chechen terrorists. Iran has no border with Tchechnia, nor Azerbaidjan"

No, but just like the Kurdistan-Arab fighting that you agreed with me there has been numerous Palestinians in the fight. Like i said, somehow you are cutting Arabs from Palestinians eventhough they have the same genetic root for in there blood. It doesn't matter who is fighting who, i don't care if its a sudanese, Somalian or Syrian Arab, if there fighting against a cause then thats them, it doesn't matter where they come from or where they are. Palestinians did fight in Chechnya, because there was an arab populus there, and plus there was Ties to Al-Quida, so many Arabs (as well as palestinians) came to Chechnya.

Sure, they don't have borders, but they do have a large sea..The Caspian sea, which can transport weapons and fighters!!! Most of the caught came from Iran. Turkey has had some go to Chechnya, but it locked there borders good. I doubt that they will be able to do such a thing like that now! The Caspian sea is the main route they go to, they cannot cross borders cause there is alot of security and checkpoints, so.....Sea is much better.
And if IRan wanted to clear themselves from Russian despise they shouldn't have supported the Afghans in the 1980's and they shouldn't have clerics calling a jihad on Russia!!


"LOL impressive evidence and credibility of your complot-theory... , i guess the PFLP had connections with T. McVeigh too"

Who knows, but what i do know is that the Japanese Terror and the palestinian terror have always been helping one another. A Japanese Red Army fighter went into LOD AIRPORT in tel-aviv and killed 26 Israelis on the PLO (CHAIRMAN ARAFAT) commend. And i think the PLO was resbonsible for murdering 3 Japanese Diplmats in Greece.

On a lighter note, the women leader of the Japanese Red Army spread her legs to some guy from the PFLP and now have a daughter who is around 22 and living in Japan who does heroine and goes to kids schools in Japan trying to teach kids middle eastern culture and how to eat a humus........... How remarkable, of how terror kids grow up to be........

"that's right, the uS got its fair share for promoting terrorism in Afghanistan in the 80's"

How did the US promote terror in Afganistan?

"of course every oppressor will say that its victims "were asking for it" (just saw a documentory about operation barbarossa, the german soldiers killing 1000's of ukrainian civilians said the same sentence...)"

Listen, you don't live in Israel..... Like you said about Iran in another thread here, that the US shoud Mind there own business in dealing with Iranian issues, so should the international community deal with Israel!
your seeing 50 years of conflict for the hourglass of 20 months. And thats not worth it!!!
Terrorism is an un-expected thing, you have suicide bombers who are the answer to being against the peace process. The only reason that terror was launched against Israel was because of Israels willingness to forsee the PLO as a legitimate partner and a futurue palestinian state as a legitimate deal. What did we get in return...... Terror! From giving them Autnomy and weapons to defend themselves.

I don't think there was one time where you had a sucide bomber kill himself on because of his feelings. It was his feelings, it was more of the way to make the peace process un-stable and thats what they did. Its not a phenomena that you have secretary of states go to Israel and than have a bombing! It happened with Albright as well. When you have someone who expects to commit terror and they have bomb strapped to themselves that tell you and everyone around you that he wants to kill himself and others, than if you kill him, are u the bad guy...
after all, he was ASKING FOR IT!!

[takeo]

"Turkey in the past have had talks with the Kurds. Israel doesn't not have anything to do with Turkey because we unfortunetly have to negotiate with Terrorist, while the turkish don't, its all International diplomacy and its not fair!!! But Turkey made some truce with them over the years, and towards the arrest of Oclean in 1998, the PKK committed some shoot outs and kidnapps. Infact, ever since his arrest, there was a drop of attacks on turk's and even a drop in Trafficing, somehow...
if i was turkey i would have slid open Oclean's throat!!!!
Remember, Kurds and Israel has good relations in all, but when you bring up PKK and terror you cannot have one hand that shakes and a knife in the other, its just not 'kosher'! "

So, you call the Kurdish people and their organisations in Turkey terrorists if they fight against the Turkish military regime, but of course in Iraq they are "freedom-fighters" and "persecuted" because fighting against Arabs. :rolleyes:
it shows how biased you are.
actually Ocalan has called for a truce, but the Turks never accepted even the slighest reforms, such as making the Kurdish language legal and stopping the repression, let alone talks with the PKK.




"No, but just like the Kurdistan-Arab fighting that you agreed with me there has been numerous Palestinians in the fight."

I didn't, i don't know and never heard so from any reliable source.

the only thing Chechens and Arabs have in common is their religion, and Chechens fight for independance, not for the Holy Islamic war....

"Sure, they don't have borders, but they do have a large sea..The Caspian sea, which can transport weapons and fighters!!! Most of the caught came from Iran. Turkey has had some go to Chechnya, but it locked there borders good. I doubt that they will be able to do such a thing like that now! The Caspian sea is the main route they go to, they cannot cross borders cause there is alot of security and checkpoints, so.....Sea is much better. "

I don't agree, i went to georgia and there are 100's of 1000's of chechens, most of them terrorists. many also live in Turkey, which does not cooperate with russia in the struggle against terrorism, have you never heard of the many terrorist acts committed by Chechens in Turkey? well, untill today turkey has not delivered one single chechen to russia!
And it's the first time i hear from the caspian sea, actually Chechnia has no ports... and i never heard of Iranian support for chechians, on the contrary to many rumours in Russia that they are supported by Turkey and Georgia (Russia even bombed Georgia some years ago for that reason)

"And if IRan wanted to clear themselves from Russian despise they shouldn't have supported the Afghans in the 1980's and they shouldn't have clerics calling a jihad on Russia!! "

any cleric calling for a Jihad in Russia will be removed from office quicker than you can open a can of beer...
Russia is helping Iran to build a nuclear installation, and with its military in general.


why in God's name would Palestinians kill Japanese? Japan is quite sympathic to the palestinian cause.




"On a lighter note, the women leader of the Japanese Red Army spread her legs to some guy from the PFLP and now have a daughter who is around 22 and living in Japan who does heroine and goes to kids schools in Japan trying to teach kids middle eastern culture and how to eat a humus........... How remarkable, of how terror kids grow up to be........ "

right :rolleyes:



"How did the US promote terror in Afganistan? "

well, together with the Afghan intelligence service, the creator of the Taliban and Al-quaida, the CIA recruted Islamic militants in Pakistan to fight against the Soviets. That's a well-known fact.



"Listen, you don't live in Israel..... Like you said about Iran in another thread here, that the US shoud Mind there own business in dealing with Iranian issues, so should the international community deal with Israel! "

yes, that's right, but NOT if israel is violating un-resolutions and occupying lands that doesn't belong to israel, that makes it international.

"Terrorism is an un-expected thing, you have suicide bombers who are the answer to being against the peace process. The only reason that terror was launched against Israel was because of Israels willingness to forsee the PLO as a legitimate partner and a futurue palestinian state as a legitimate deal. What did we get in return...... Terror! From giving them Autnomy and weapons to defend themselves. "

LOL, the only reason palestinians are fighting israel are the occupation and the refugees, you know that well enough.


"after all, he was ASKING FOR IT!!"

he was, yes, but not his family...

retributing against civilians and family is a typical human-right abuse that was committed in wWII and by Israel as well...

[Pushtak18]

"So, you call the Kurdish people and their organisations in Turkey terrorists if they fight against the Turkish military regime, but of course in Iraq they are "freedom-fighters" and "persecuted" because fighting against Arabs.
it shows how biased you are.
actually Ocalan has called for a truce, but the Turks never accepted even the slighest reforms, such as making the Kurdish language legal and stopping the repression, let alone talks with the PKK."

"Oclean has his hands filled with murder. He was the one who set up the rampage in the 80's to kill 76 Ambassadors of Turkey. And you expect turkey to talk with him. He only calls for a truce after 1987 when Iraq took care of his 'people'. Turkey is willing to negotiate, but just like Israel, it will not lose its freedom and majority for some people who have 2 choices, my way or a terror! Its not biased...its the truth!


"I didn't, i don't know and never heard so from any reliable source.

the only thing Chechens and Arabs have in common is their religion, and Chechens fight for independance, not for the Holy Islamic war"

How come you see the Palestinians as so much innocent people? You seem to seperate them from being Arab all of a suddden and you think there gods gift to peace, do you? Palestinians aren't just in WB/GAZa, there all over the place, there in Jordan (AND THATS WHERE THEY SHOULD BE) and there also in Lebanon, Syria and egypt!
They don't fight for independence, they fight for there murderous rampage. They couldn't care less if they have indepenence or not! Infact, they will be ready to kill you russian any day, because you are one of there most popular targets. The Chechens want to make a taliban system in the Former USSR and you support that. You support a nation in the middle of nowhere that is like the taliban who gets support from Iran (and you watch it) and Iraq to build arms that can send biological missiles into Moscow? Than how much russian are u.....
next thing you know its 400kg of Bio-chemic lezerthal rips your skin in half! All i got to do is sit on a bench with some popcorn and laught as you eternallty and mentally rot!

"I don't agree, i went to georgia and there are 100's of 1000's of chechens, most of them terrorists. many also live in Turkey, which does not cooperate with russia in the struggle against terrorism, have you never heard of the many terrorist acts committed by Chechens in Turkey? well, untill today turkey has not delivered one single chechen to russia!
And it's the first time i hear from the caspian sea, actually Chechnia has no ports... and i never heard of Iranian support for chechians, on the contrary to many rumours in Russia that they are supported by Turkey and Georgia (Russia even bombed Georgia some years ago for that reason)"

Thats a nonsense, they don't need a port to get there things to Chechnya, like i said, they bring soldiers there and not equipment (most of the time) so the Caspian sea is a good route. There is no way they can bring people in from Georgia and turkey cause if they bring weapons they will be stopped.
I don't know your garabage talk with meeting and seeing chechens in your so called 'trips' to Georgia, but if they see you, your not going to be a good day in the end, i can tell you that.
Turkey has a tight border and would not let terrorist go threw it.


"any cleric calling for a Jihad in Russia will be removed from office quicker than you can open a can of beer...
Russia is helping Iran to build a nuclear installation, and with its military in general."

Military or politcis do not have anything to do with Iran-Russian relations. There are Clerics who call a jihad on Russia and you know it but instead of saying to me something more reasonable you think that there removed from the office, but first of all..there not in the office, second of all there just religous clerics and thirds of all, the conservatives (that you support) will take care of the matter, they have the power, not the reformist! thanks alot to your ignorance!
As for the Nucelar installation, i just hope that Russia will get some sanctions sooner or later!
They deserve to be bomb for helping build the bomb!


"why in God's name would Palestinians kill Japanese? Japan is quite sympathic to the palestinian cause"

The Red Army and other terrorist factions are sympathetic to them and if they need a 'favor' they'll get it. Not many Japanese are sympathetic, some are, like that freak who burned himself alive! Stooooopid!

"yes, that's right, but NOT if israel is violating un-resolutions and occupying lands that doesn't belong to israel, that makes it international."

Today, there can be 400 cases of Abuse that goes on Iran that is violated in the UN human rights and yet, your telling me to mind my own buisness? This is UN charters that Iran is breaking. To put 8 million Iranians who are drugged up and have no future is a crime indeed.
The land is occupied for a reason, and not for maintaining a grip hold or whatever you like to call it. Israel has gone with the UN Resolution 242 and 338 which calls for Land for Peace on the 'territorial' dispute. They didn't say which territory to give, because Israel occupied about 15% of East bank (Jordan) and in the 1967 Truce Armintice, they gave it back, that was a land for peace!!!
Israel is willing to give back 97% of the WB and all of GAZA for peace and reconcilation.....It is willing to divide Jerusalem up and live in harmony of free trade and economic wealth. Instead, arafat budges on ROR which is certainly not part of the peace process and its only meaning is to get something that is not worked on in the paper.....
If you want UN resolutions to be in peace, forget the Right of Return (ROR)...its about Land, and since you have Land in what would be palestine (Wb-Gaza) you, the palestinians leader will deal with the Refugeess...after all, He is the one who still puts his people in Refugee camps after he gets Autonomy...
Thank you for your autrocratic help you have given!


"LOL, the only reason palestinians are fighting israel are the occupation and the refugees, you know that well enough."

That is not correct! Terror started against Israel and Israeli Civilians in 1994 as a response to the peace process. Ask around, the Hamas and Islamic Jihads, they'll all say the same...... Terror was there to undermine the peace process and make Israelis angry at the PLO, it wasn't successful and peace still made it to a good stage, until 2000......
To tell me that occupation is the matter, that is propostuerous! A Palestinians suicide-bomber is not asking for an end to suicide bombing, but instead he is asking for a reprisal and more occupation in the end. Terror was set up because Israel gave the Palestinians Autonomy to control and govern themselves accordingly!!!!!!!
Refugees will never come back to Israel because UN resolution 338 and 242 which is based on the principals of the peace negotiations states that its LAND FOR PEACE AND NOT REFUGEE COMPENSATION!
Understand that!
You encourage a 17 year old boy to blow himself up, you encourage more occupation and more house to house arrest. If Israel was to maintain a grip hold, those Sub-human race muts would never be willingly to put a strap in there bodys. They would only be at home the whole day having coffe and watching opra!

"he was, yes, but not his family...

retributing against civilians and family is a typical human-right abuse that was committed in wWII and by Israel as well"

Who said anything about his family??? The guy came up to a checkpoint, armed and he was shot...The family barries him.....whats the big point about abuses here....
If someone was to try to kill you, you would just let it go or you would defend yourself!

[elke]

Since when have friendly relations between countries meant that the parties approved of all of each others' policies? France has diplomatic ties with Iran, does that mean they approved of the taking of American hostages in '79? We won't even begin talking about the US-Saudi Arabia issues, yet Prince Abdullah has made it to a Bush barbecue!

[takeo]

palestinians are not God's gift, they are just a people with as much rights and duties as israeli people, on the contrary to fascists who think they are just animals that can be etnic cleansed without problems to serve the interests of Israel...

"AND THATS WHERE THEY SHOULD BE"

no comment...

"They don't fight for independence, they fight for there murderous rampage. They couldn't care less if they have indepenence or not! Infact, they will be ready to kill you russian any day, because you are one of there most popular targets. The Chechens want to make a taliban system in the Former USSR and you support that. You support a nation in the middle of nowhere that is like the taliban who gets support from Iran (and you watch it) and Iraq to build arms that can send biological missiles into Moscow? Than how much russian are u.....
next thing you know its 400kg of Bio-chemic lezerthal rips your skin in half! All i got to do is sit on a bench with some popcorn and laught as you eternallty and mentally rot! "

the Palestinians couldn't care less for Tchechnia or Russia, they have their own problems. The Chechen separatists are a bunch of extremists and most Russian Muslims don't like them either.
Did i ever said that i supported or even liked the Chechens? I would advise you some medical treatment...
The Tchechens don't get support from iraq nor Iran but from your dear Turkey (and Georgia), ally of Israel and the US...


Thats a nonsense, they don't need a port to get there things to Chechnya, like i said, they bring soldiers there and not equipment (most of the time) so the Caspian sea is a good route. There is no way they can bring people in from Georgia and turkey cause if they bring weapons they will be stopped.
I don't know your garabage talk with meeting and seeing chechens in your so called 'trips' to Georgia, but if they see you, your not going to be a good day in the end, i can tell you that.
Turkey has a tight border and would not let terrorist go threw it. "


actually the border between tchechnia and Georgia is the higest mountains of Europe and no way anyone can stop them passing trough. besides armed tchechen rebels live in the border area, in Georgia. Turkey has a tight border but the Turkish regime is sympathic to the Chechens (as well as the Georgians) that's why they are sitting ducks.




I never heard of anyone calling for a Jihad against Russia in Iran, Iranians have sympathy for Russia and have common ennemies. You shouldn't ignore that Iran is still a totalitarian state Elke, and anything said in public should be conform to the official foreign policy (or one of the official state-views) . Both the conservatives AND the reformists want good ties with Russia. Former conservative president rafstanjani started the good relations with russia in the first place.

"As for the Nucelar installation, i just hope that Russia will get some sanctions sooner or later!
They deserve to be bomb for helping build the bomb! "

i hope Israel will get some sanctions too sooner or later for having nuclear facilities.
just try to bomb Russia and enjoy the last seconds of your life and of Israel in general...

Having drug addicts is not a typical Iranian problem and is a matter of internal affairs...

"The land is occupied for a reason, and not for maintaining a grip hold or whatever you like to call it. Israel has gone with the UN Resolution 242 and 338 which calls for Land for Peace on the 'territorial' dispute. They didn't say which territory to give, because Israel occupied about 15% of East bank (Jordan) and in the 1967 Truce Armintice, they gave it back, that was a land for peace!!! "

sure, israel gave back the East bank to Jordan in 1967 :rolleyes:
and the un-resolutions where calling upon israel to withdraw only from the eastbank
sometimes i wonder if YOU aren't a drug addict and need UN-intervention to save you...



the right of return is a un-resolution too...




"That is not correct! Terror started against Israel and Israeli Civilians in 1994 as a response to the peace process. Ask around, the Hamas and Islamic Jihads, they'll all say the same...... Terror was there to undermine the peace process and make Israelis angry at the PLO, it wasn't successful and peace still made it to a good stage, until 2000...... "

that's right, but now you are talking about extremists, in israel too there were extremists who even killed your president...


"To tell me that occupation is the matter, that is propostuerous! A Palestinians suicide-bomber is not asking for an end to suicide bombing, but instead he is asking for a reprisal and more occupation in the end. Terror was set up because Israel gave the Palestinians Autonomy to control and govern themselves accordingly!!!!!!! "

BS, terror resumed in 2000 because israel did not deliver independance in 1999 as promised in oslo and did not stop building new settlements and was not ready to discuss the right of return or any other palestinian peace-proposal.


"Refugees will never come back to Israel because UN resolution 338 and 242 which is based on the principals of the peace negotiations states that its LAND FOR PEACE AND NOT REFUGEE COMPENSATION!
Understand that! "

the resolution 242 said absolutely nothing about the refugees, which means that the resolution about the refugees is still legally binding, and by the way it has been reconfirmed.


"You encourage a 17 year old boy to blow himself up, you encourage more occupation and more house to house arrest. If Israel was to maintain a grip hold, those Sub-human race muts would never be willingly to put a strap in there bodys. They would only be at home the whole day having coffe and watching opra! "

i don't encourage nobody, sharon is encouraging them by destroying palestinian houses and refusing to talk about lasting peace.



"Who said anything about his family??? The guy came up to a checkpoint, armed and he was shot...The family barries him.....whats the big point about abuses here....
If someone was to try to kill you, you would just let it go or you would defend yourself!"

actually it is a well-known israeli policy to destroy the house of the family of the suicide-bomber...

[takeo]

very interesting article from The Guardian and La Republica!

"La
Republica 10/9/99)

In Afghanistan Bin Laden had fulfilled the role of ally for the United
States against the Russians. Meanwhile however he became a nuisance and was
chased ... to Chechnya.

"His position", La Republica writes, "has become more and more
difficult in Afghanistan. The US has decided to use every means, including
diplomatic, to exert pressure on Pakistan and force the Taliban to
extradite him.

"The Afghan soil became too hot for him and he would have chosen Chechnya
as a safer haven. The Russians have no say in the matter and the US won't
bombard him as it is Russian territory."

The Chechen war lords declared as their objective "to establish a Muslim
state and to chase the Russians from the Caucasus".

This objective perfectly fits the scheme of the American and European oil
multinationals. They want to control the petroleum fields and oil pipe-
lines in the Caucasus and eliminate the pipe-lines on Russian territory.

All oil would then have to be transported through Georgia or Turkey, two
states controlled by the US."

"In response to the offensive to surround and break up Russia from the
south, new alliances are being drawn. The "Three" (China, Russia, and
India) are lining up against the "Seven" (the G-7). China realises that if
the West succeeds in carving up Russia, China becomes the next target.

Among the Uigur population of China agitation is rising in favour of an
"own, independent, and Islamic" state of Turkestan in Central Asia.

India, traditionally an ally of Russia, fights a conflict with Pakistan
concerning Kashmir."

"The "Seven", comprising the NATO countries, are seeking support points for
their offensive in the region. Turkey counts Georgia and Azerbaijan among
its sphere of influence while Afghanistan and Pakistan are a base for the
Muslim war lords, who are to "chase the Russians from the Caucasus". And
obviously, Chechnya."

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve1/980chech.html



The new Yorker, Michael Specter :

"Georgia today is a more tranquil place than it was on that
summer day when the bomb went off--in no small part because the
country is, in a sense, a highly dependent duchy of the United
States. American leaders, for both practical and sentimental reasons,
revere Shevardnadze. Last year, the United States provided nearly
a hundred and fifty million dollars in aid, almost a third of
the Georgian budget. Over the past decade, only Israel has regularly
received significantly more money per person from Washington.
Despite Georgia's efforts to establish a democracy, in other respects
its progress has been slight: tax revenues are anemic; and last
year Transparency International, an independent monitor of international
ethics, placed Georgia eighty-fifth out of a hundred on its list
of the world's most corrupt countries. Nearly everything that
should be earned in a free society through merit is blatantly
for sale, from college diplomas and drivers' licenses to the right
to vote."

"Moscow has helped start two of Georgia's
civil wars in the past ten years, and the Russian military maintains
four bases on Georgian territory.Georgia managed to remain aloof during the previous Chechen
conflict, but it has been harder this time. Last year, when the
war started again, the Russians tried to station troops in the
Pankisi Gorge, a narrow valley that leads to the mountain pass
where Georgia ends and Chechnya begins. The Russians were quickly
rebuffed by Shevardnadze, who understands that neutrality is his
only hope of staving off a full-blown war throughout the Caucasus.
But the Russian generals have kept up the pressure, and at least
twice in the past year bombs have fallen on Georgian villages."
""It is literally the case that no high-level meeting takes
place between American and Russian officials without the word
`Georgia' being mentioned,'' Strobe Talbott, the Deputy Secretary
of State, told me recently. "When we talk to Russia, we talk
about red lines. Those are lines it must not cross. Well, the
brightest of the red lines that exist is the border between Chechnya
and Georgia." "The gorge has long been a transit point for drugs and arms
on their way from Afghanistan to Chechnya and beyond. Many of
the people who live there immigrated from Chechnya decades ago
and, egged on by local warlords, they resent the humanitarian
aid that is available for the new Chechen refugees."
"I drove up from Tbilisi one morning, arriving after a shoot-out
in which eight gang members had died. People were on edge. Although
the refugee camps are supposed to admit only women, children,
and old men, the first thing that caught my eye along the dusty
trails--just thirty miles from the battlefields-- was two groups
of young men cruising around in Mercedes S600s, with smoked mirrors
and Chechen flags pasted on the back. The scene in the gorge was
much like what you saw in Grozny, in 1994, on the eve of the first
war: markets full of bright-red plastic buckets, wheels of cheese
the size of tires, rusted tools, ancient spare parts--all spread
out on tables as if they were Swiss watches. There were pictures
of the late Chechen leader Dzhokhar Dudayev and enough wolf
insignias--the sign of the Chechen fighter--to outfit an army.
The gorge was like Grozny in another way, too: you could sense
the violence.

I had last been in those mountains in 1996, right after the
Russians had been chased out. I had driven from Grozny through
the peaks to Itum-Kale, fifteen miles from the Georgian border.
There I watched Chechen elders prostrate themselves toward Mecca,
thanking God for helping to destroy their enemy. It was a late-fall
day, and after the prayers several sheep were boiled in huge cauldrons
on the open fields. "

"By the fall of 1999, the Russian generals had adopted the tactics
of General Baratinsky, who in defeating the Chechen leader Imam
Shamil, in 1859, instructed his soldiers to level every hamlet,
village, and lean-to they could find. Russian paratroopers have
now dug in throughout the mountains. On the Georgian side of the
border, particularly at night, one can listen as SU25s attempt
to incinerate the last few thousand rebels. "

"Now, as the gorge fills with the detritus of war, the pressure
on Georgia has grown intense. Moscow's military leaders have accused
Tbilisi of, among other things, providing training camps for rebels,
hiding members of Osama bin Laden's terrorist group, transporting
Taliban fighters to help the Chechens, and supplying the Chechens
with guns. The charges have been refuted by every official observer
who has visited, yet Moscow persists."
"Last April, Shevardnadze was elected to a second term with
more than eighty per cent of the vote. There was no real opposition,
and surely he would have won a fair and open election. But the
contest was neither fair nor open. Western and local observers
complained loudly about tampering; and they found that many polling
places in contested regions were closed illegally and that at
least some votes were faked by supporters of the President. "

http://www.michaelspecter.com/ny/2000/2000_12_18_tbilisi.html

[Adversary2Arabs]

A good alliance would be of the countries surrounding Arab countries. This would be good because in Israel and India (just as of now) there are problems with the Arabs and their neighbors. They are greedy for more land, when Israel has less than .5 of 1% of the entire Middle East. In India, the Arabs are trying to take more land than they actually have. Its just a matter of time before it happens with other countries in the Middle East. Arab greed for land and power is infinite, in my opinion.

[Pushtak18]

Its not that A2A....


FIrst of all, Pakistanis aren't Arabs, there muslims, and there might be a few arabs but not all of the 130 Million crowded in Pakistan.

Secondly, yes, both India and Israel face the same problem with land that is on status quo (kashmir vs West Bank/Gaza).

Israel and India made full diplomatic relations in 1992 and have begun a series of practices in the Indian ocean for planes and other equipment.

Just so you know...Israel is the 2nd biggest importer for Arms and weapons to India and sooner or later would be first, after Russia will lose its spot.

I wish there would be an Isro-India empire that will be from INdia all the way to Israel and we will share the land happily and abundantly! :)

[gregg]

Originally posted by redcake
I understand the obvious need for a brotherhood with Indian (we're already seeing the results of this) but I'm still at a loss as to why China would step in. Weren't there signs of Chinese fighting alongside the Taliban?

there where also signes of some Americans fighting along the Taliban, whats your point

[sikanderhind]

Hi!

I am from India and I want to thank Israel and its govermnet for their support to us.

We are victims of muslim terrorism for last 20 years.

We know how it feels when my father does not return home after work cause some mullah jihadi walked in with a bomb into a resturant where he was eating lunch.

Terrorists now aim at women and children, to hit us where it hurs the most.

But, we will never be defeated.

Jews and Hindus are the oldest running CIVILIZATIONS on earth.

We are a billion people and a regional military power.

And most important, we have a LOT to learn from Israel, a nation of astsute, BRAVE, courageous, people who face this threat every day.

India has 175 million muslims, so our official government policy is to be with Arabs. (the huge vote bank)

But let me tell you what each indian on the street thinks for you, Israelis. We think very high of you and will support you always, with any help.

I want to remind you people one thing, India as a nation HAS NEVER been ever anti jews in its history. We never did what Europeans, Arabs, etc did.

Do you know, the Indian Army's western Command is headed by an Indian jew? He is a amamzing leader for the forces.

Imagine the muslim Pakistani army getting defeated by this Commander? They will not sleep in peace for centuries.

I wish to start a new chapter in Indo-Israeli allaince.

Already our goverments are into it.
I offer my friendship to everyone in this forum

Have a great Day !!!!

[Mediocrates]

Shalom - is that J.F.R. Jacob??

[bhagat.singh]

Originally posted by takeo
india, as representative of the non-alined movement, always voted in the UN AGAINST Israel or abstained, never in favor.
I am new to this Forum and this is my first post.
I agree that India has always voted against Israel in the past but that was govt. of India and it's external policies and not it's people's opinion or views. Indian people and Hindus have always supported Israel from their hearts because we know what terrorism is, we are suffering from the same Islamic terrorism.
What ever India did in the past was totally politically motivated and did not reflect people's views, that was during the cold war, things have changed now. India and Israel has so many things in common and can become true friends in the long run.
Let's work together to get rid of this Islamic evil called " Terrorism"

[ibrodsky]

bhagat.singh,

Welcome to IsraelForum. I've been following the growing military alliance between Israel and India. And your kind words of support are very much appreciated.

I understand why the U.S. formed an alliance with Pakistan; it made going after Al Qaeda easier in the short run. But clearly, long-run the U.S. should be more closely linked to India.

I have read with horror about Islamist (i.e., militant Islam) attacks in India. Both Israel and India have the right to self-defense. We cannot let our aversion to causing civilian casualties stop us from fighting terrorists. They are purposely killing as many civilians as they can.

The blame for the civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza rests squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and Shehada. If they didn't blow up Israelis riding buses, shopping in markets, and eating in restaurants, then Israel would not need to go after their evil leaders.

I'm sure much the same is true for India. I know when the question of Pakistan's role in terrorism comes up, they deny, deny, deny. The same with the PA. Even if they are not the plotters, we know they lend support and look away when needed. Basically, they say they oppose terrorists, but purposely do nothing, and then issue insincere condemnations -- no doubt feeling inside that these attacks help their side. So, they get to perpetrate terrorism and escape the responsibility.

Plus, India faces the threat of nuclear attack and a Pakistani gov't that could fall directly into the hands of terrorists someday. At least one Muslim participant here has talked with enthusiasm about the prospect of Islamists nuking Israel, so we know how India and her supporters feel.

It would be nice now if India and Israel could support each other in the UN and in other ways...

[ibrodsky]

sikanderhind,

Thank you also for your kind words of support, and welcome to IsraelForum!

[Mr. Pumps]

Yaaaaaahhhoooooooooo! maybe next a Han Chinese will say Pakistan is dead weight and Muslims in China are a problem and they secretly admire Israel and India. Than a Russian next.

Lets get the Ball rolling shall we.

All "Kafirs" as one agianst the Muslims.

[elke]

Not against the Muslims, against the Islamists :cool: !

[Leon Uris]

Actually, it was our current Deputy Prime Minister, LK Advani, who along with the PM Vajpayee, were instrumental in jettisoning the muslim-appeasing habit of voting against Israel in the UN and really opened relations between the two countries.

LKA also, if I recall correctly, had a close friend, who is jewish, back in his youth. On his last trip to Israel, he met his friend. The admiration that the currently ruling party feels for Israel is genuine.

However, I am really apprehensive about the nature of Indo-Israelis ties in the future if the Congress Party comes to power. For one, it is the muslim-appeasing Congress Party that had for almost 50 years shunned Israel. Also, it is lead by Sonia Gandhi (Ex- and Late-PM Rajiv Gandhi's wife) who is Italian and Catholic. Considering the long history of virulent anti-semitism espoused by Catholics and the Vatican for 2,000 years, it does not take a rocket scientist to foretell that Indo-Israeli ties will take a nose-dive. So I fervently pray for the BJP (Bhartiya Janata Party or the Indian (Bharat is the ancient name of India) Peoples Party) to remain in power for the near forseeable future.

[Leon Uris]

I think accessing the post below may require registration which is free

Israel Cancels Einstein Exhibit In China Over 'Insult' to Jews
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18528-2002Jul29.html


=======================================

I regularly visit an Indian defence site called Bharat-rakshak.com.

One of the things they have on that site is a NEWS FOLDER thread where anyone is free to post an article much like the one above. The idea is to bring that article to everyone's notice without really inviting discussion.

The Webmasters on this forum may want to think about it. Also, you are most welcome to participate in Bharat-Rakshak.com

[The Indian]

I'd like to offer a word of thanks to the IAI.

With their help the IAF can keep an eye on the Islamic terrorists entering India.

Thanks again Israel.

[IndiaIsrael]

Kwel Forum :)


India -- Israel's New Best Friend

The strategic alliance could be compared only to Israel's strong ties with Turkey -- in that both India and Turkey lie outside the orbit of Israel's traditional Western friends.

Both Israel and India have a common nemesis in Islamic terrorism.
Like Israel has in its dealings with the Palestinian Authority, India recently invoked President Bush's strong stand against sponsors of terrorism when it threatened Pakistan over a terror attack at the Indian Parliament allegedly backed by Pakistani militant groups.

India's prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, sounded as if he had adopted Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's comments on Arafat when he said that he had "had enough of symbolic gestures from Pakistan" and expected "a halt to terrorist acts against India."

Peres gave public support for India's war against terrorism. "I don't see" the Indian government as being "trigger-happy," Peres told reporters in New Delhi after Indian leaders. "The greatest victory is the prevention of a war, and I feel that this is also the position of India."

Peres said that there is much more to the relations between Israel and India than the need to fight Islamic terrorism.

The strategic alliance between the two countries -- both considered members of the exclusive international nuclear club -- is based predominantly on strong military ties. India learned from Israel ways to defend its long border with Pakistan, as well as how to develop highly sophisticated weapons.

The two countries may also cooperate in developing an integrated anti-ballistic missile system , designed to destroy incoming ballistic missiles. India and Israel also are looking into the possibility of integrating the Greenpine Radar, which is part of Israel's Arrow missile, with India's Rajendra Army Radar system.

A contract already has been signed between Israel Aircraft Industries and the Indian Defense Ministry for $2 billion , according to which Israel will provide India with advanced military equipment and other advanced products. According to those reports, Israel will sell India ground-to-ground Barak missiles for $280 million, pilotless planes for $300 million and a radar system for $250 million.

[Pushtak18]

And thats why i love India so much!

I declare them our new good friend of Asia :)

We will make the India-Israel empires :D


I've been to India and i also took part in Pro-Hindu/Indian protests against Islamic Terorrism and Pakistan :)

They welcomed me with open arms!

[The Indian]

Pushtak18,

No need for empires. The people of India & Israel simply wish to live in peace & prosperity in their own lands. Now the Islamists wish to take that away from them as well. Both of our peoples have suffered from mass genocide and the blood-letting continues today.

What I see happening in Israel today is that the Arabs are asking for parts of Israel as a land for peace deal. Thats what the Islamists asked from India in the 1940s. Now today we have a terrorist slum known as the Terrorist State of Pakistan (TSP). No Israeli should give in to US demands for a Palestinian state or it will create a terrorist slum next to Israel that will create problems forever!

TSP is the root of all major acts of terrorism today as we know it. If person wants to get trained in terrorism, just take a trip to TSP to learn how. The scum who blew up a Synagogue in Tunisa in the last year with a truck filled with propane was trained in TSP.

[richcrassus]

WHy do Egyptians call themselves arabs and people call them arabs when technically they are in Africa?
Isnt Egypt actually in the continent of Africa?
Arnt arabs only technically people who live in Arabia? Saudi Arabia?
Or countries close to arabia like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan , Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Yemen etc...

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by richcrassus
WHy do Egyptians call themselves arabs and people call them arabs when technically they are in Africa?
Isnt Egypt actually in the continent of Africa?
Arnt arabs only technically people who live in Arabia? Saudi Arabia?
Or countries close to arabia like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan , Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Yemen etc...

Because when the Arab conquerers came thru they continued all the way over North Africa and then into Spain, where they slowly bled into France and then were pushed back and expelled from Spain(with the Jews) from the Inquisition. Most Arabs from Spain moved to Morrocco, which is the most western country occupied by Arabs.

[Haifa]

Actually, most of Arab countries are not Arab ethnically, but they speak Arabic.

Palestinians, jordanians, syrians, and lebanese come from ancient civilizations in the area: assyrians, caldians, cannanites...etc. but they were integrated into the Arab world and speak Arabic. Iraqis are assyrians, and egyptians are egyptians.

The only arabs are those in Yemen, kuwait, saudi arabia, bahrain, and qatar. The rest are "other people" who speak Arabic and no longer use the ancient languages.

So egyptians are not arab: they are egyptians who speak arabic. Same with sudanese.

This is why there is a variation, even more than jews, ranging from russian-like people in north of lebanon, to black people in Sudan.

Until Israel was established, Jews were only Jewish by their religion. This is why they were called "Arab Jews" a term that no longer exists except among the few thousand jews living in yemen.

This is supported by the fact that all jewish converts to islam lose their jewish identity. There is probably some of them in Arab countries now, but they do not even know that they have jewish ancestory.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Palestinains aren't Arab then? Hmm...

[Haifa]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Palestinains aren't Arab then? Hmm...

well the thing is: because of all kinds of inter-marriage, it is hard to tell who is who.

It's not like Judaism where you marry a jew to keep the children jewish.

Who knows.. some palestinians may turn to be french crusaders who converted :)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Haifa
well the thing is: because of all kinds of inter-marriage, it is hard to tell who is who.


Well make up your mind which is it, your holy right or some vague state of being-ness.
We hear about the holy sacred right to name thyself Palestinian but I guess it's really whatever you want it to be, like a driver's licence or something.

It's not like Judaism where you marry a jew to keep the children jewish.

I used to think you were a prop. Now I know you're just incredibly clueless; almost aggresively clueless.

[elke]

Originally posted by Haifa
Actually, most of Arab countries are not Arab ethnically, but they speak Arabic.

Palestinians, jordanians, syrians, and lebanese come from ancient civilizations in the area: assyrians, caldians, cannanites...etc. but they were integrated into the Arab world and speak Arabic. Iraqis are assyrians, and egyptians are egyptians.

The only arabs are those in Yemen, kuwait, saudi arabia, bahrain, and qatar. The rest are "other people" who speak Arabic and no longer use the ancient languages.

So egyptians are not arab: they are egyptians who speak arabic. Same with sudanese.

This is why there is a variation, even more than jews, ranging from russian-like people in north of lebanon, to black people in Sudan.

This is actually incorrect, Haifa. Semitic peoples, of which only the lonely Jews and Arabs are left, vary - and always have varied - significantly in their personal appearance. In addition, of course these other peoples did not just simply "disappear", but rather blended in with the Arabs (and others before them). Canaanites as a people were long, long gone by the time the Arabs came to this area.

Until Israel was established, Jews were only Jewish by their religion. This is why they were called "Arab Jews" a term that no longer exists except among the few thousand jews living in yemen.

This is also not true: genetic studies of the Eastern European Jewish populations have established that the Jews were Jewish ethnically as well, with quite a bit in common genetically with the ME Arabs and Palestinians, incidentally. :p

[Haifa]

-ok thanks for correcting me in the first point. I've always though Assyrians still exist now, and they are called Iraqis (no?)

-What I meant in the second point was that they were not treated as a race in the middle east and this is why they were called "arab jews."

[elke]

Originally posted by Haifa
-ok thanks for correcting me in the first point. I've always though Assyrians still exist now, and they are called Iraqis (no?)

-What I meant in the second point was that they were not treated as a race in the middle east and this is why they were called "arab jews."

Well, it would have been rather difficult for the Arabs to discriminate against the Jews once they converted, don't you think? Considering that no one could tell the difference... Shoot, even now many people can't tell one from the other! :)

You know, my mother told me about people she called Assyrian in Russian Georgia, where she grew up. I don't know what they actually are though...that place is such a mixture of ethnicities!

[Haifa]

hmm the reason I said this is that I was in a voice chat program in a channel labelled Iraq, and there were people there speaking some language I did not recognize (and I recognize many languages, without necessarily understanding them :)).. and when I asked they said they were Assyrian. And they said they all were christian.

I have never seen these people in my life, and never knew there were christians in Iraq either!! (10 percent)

[Mediocrates]

Well, it would have been rather difficult for the Arabs to discriminate against the Jews once they converted, don't you think? Considering that no one could tell the difference...

The Spaniards found it not only possible but politically useful to continually discriminate against their own anouim from 1492 onward (some people call them conversos or marranos but these are very deragatory terms). Once a Jew always a Jew. Anouim were even chased out of Spain and Portugal after they 'converted'. Many wound up in South and Central America.

So any Jews who 'converted', at the point of a sword no doubt, to Islam would always be "those Jews who think they're not infidels" to their neighbors. You don't have to be able to tell them apart all you need is a community's memory.

[Leon Uris]

I am extremely please to see that our PM chose (or was invited) to address Jewish organizations in the US. The Indian congress party, with known anti-semitic stalwarts such as Gandhi and Nehru in the past and an Italian Catholic PM-wannabe in wing, Sonia Gandhi, would never have even considered addressing Jewish organizations.


http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sept13/up5.htm

Terror must be dealt with effectively: Vajpayee

New York, Sep 13 (PTI)

Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee has said the war against terrorism will not succeed unless and until the safe havens of terrorism are ended and the infrastructure is dismantled.

At a meeting with leading Jewish organisations here yesterday , Vajpayee told them that he stressed this point during talks with President Bush earlier in the day, External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Nirupama Rao told reporters here. Vajpayee said he mentioned to the American President that terrorism cannot be allowed to hijack the bilateral agenda of cooperation and better relations that India seeks with the United States.

Some of the Jewish organisations asked whether India is troubled in any way by the equivalence sought to be established in some quarters in the US in judging India and Pakistan.

[Mediocrates]

India and Israel trade several billions in military purchases between them. They also cross train each others counterterrorism squads. There are quite a few software and services companies that do joint development and support as well.

The one time military chief of the Indian western army that faces Pakistan today, is a Jew.

[Mediocrates]

General Jacobs? I did not know that. I guess we should all fall on our swords, thank you.

[danholo]

You don't convert to Buddhism. You can practice Buddhism and still be Jewish. (once you scrap the buddha pictures of course.)

[Mediocrates]

Well maybe it wasn't Jacobs - there are lots of senior army officers in India from Jewish families? Eh either way it's not that big a deal with me. As long as Israel and India work together that's a good enough relationship for now.

[TheRock]

and about jacobs, he doesnt belive in god, he follows buddhist ideologies, but he is jewish by birth, jews are not even a signifacant popultion in india prob less than 1000

[Mediocrates]

FWIW

http://www.wjc.org.il/wjcbook/india/index.htm

[Simon]

and about jacobs, he doesnt belive in god, he follows buddhist ideologies,


You have any links to support that. I can easily claim that Arafat is a buddhist :D.

Again, there is nothing wrong with Jacobs doing anything he wants of his own free will; whether he wants to renounce judaism or adopt buddhism or remain a Jew while being attracted to (and study) buddhist philosophies.

[WarAgainstJihad]

thats a good idea but i doubt this will happen, there are about 200,000 muslims in india, who are about as part of indian society as anything, and china's biggest monothestic religion is islam, good though but highly unlikely.

[The Indian]

WarAgainstJihad,

Get your facts straight! There are 150+ million muslims in India. Not 200,000. India is the 2nd largest muslim country in the world after No.1 Indonesia. The Terrorist State of Pakistan (TSP) has 140 million muslims.

Within India, the vast majority of the muslims are loyal to India. A small minority probably sides with TSP.

I see no barrier to an Indo-Israeli alliance. Two old civilizations that both value democracy.

[Mr. Pumps]

The likely hood of another confrontation between the West and Islam is very likely.

The tension is building or violence has already started in India, and European nations.

They have no case agianst Slobo, he represents the kind of anamosity growning in the ranks of the populations of Europe over Immigrants who preach destruction and hatred of their new homeland.

Serbia-Kosovo, Israel-Palestinians, India-Kashmir that is what you get when a non-muslim offers co-habitation and co-existence to a Muslim, they make it a fixation of kicking you out and squat on your land.

[GauravS]

Gen. Jacob is now retired, he is the Governor of the Union Territory of Chandigarh, I met him once when he came to our University, I have not seen such a humble man in my life and the respect he has of his army collegues is legendary.

We in India are glad to have a Israel as friend.

[The Indian]

Indian-Israeli Relations (http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/Publications.asp?did=512)

[Vermuz]

hahah !!

Get your facts right here .

india has more moslems than pakistan . Pakistan was a terrorist state till 2001 .
israelli mossad was invited by president musharraf and told that pakistan has no problem with israel ; israelli foreign minister was so happy with secret signals from pak government that he said it will be a great wish come true if we have good relations with both pakistan and india.

Israel sent a message through turkey it is concerned about iran ; iran has a long history of bad relations with pakistan . iran wants to seize baluchistan which it claims is it`s . And also the oil fields
which are not let to ppl to use em . Pakistani pres zia ul haq had gone to the extent of saying once "we might have to invade iran someday".

Mr musharraf had this to say to israel due to "bush romance"
we willl take care of iran , usa is establising the biggest base in region in pakistan for which initially 54000 acre was given to us army at 99 years of lease. There usa has permanently deployed bombers and fighter aircraft and spy planes to take care of cis states where america has oil interests all pipelines will run through pakistan and karachi.

Also about pakistan and china . Pakistan and china have "no war pact" signed by mrs benazir bhutto. Pakistan also covers china from india . According to us defence advisor sandy berger pakistan alone can take care of india in any military attack "it will be a no win situation!".

Pakistan also wants to arm turkey for this pakistan used china as channel to convey to israel that turkey is israel`s ally and pakistan wants to help it because turkey is a brotherly nation with pakistan . Us govvernment had some problems but they are to be removed too . Pakistan wants turkey to have tactical weapons , tanks , missiles and modern radars one of which was recently tested along with china to chck trajectory of incoming missiles and launch anti missiles , System`s name is "ads-37" .
During recent exercises in pakistan turkish were really impressed when pakistan used a stealth finder radar in exercises same one that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia ; ukraine sold the tech to them so many deals are in pipeline for turkey but for now usa has urged pakistan not to openly arm turkey untill iraq issue is resolved ; pakistani president had this to say to greece "any country has bad designs against our friend turkey ; that we will not sit and watch:)" However a direct military intervention of pakistan is not so possible due to us pressure because if it does happen greece is history . Greece has sent 6 envoys in this year alone to pakistan to explain its point .

Pakistan takes care of military posture of india while china works on its plans to be an economic giant ; Israelli top official said on question how important is china to israel ; he remarked "everyone knows china will be a superpower ; one day we will all wake up to find that ; we need to have excellent relations with them"Chinese , americans armed pakistan and will arm pakistan. The way india behaves is funny because they cannot attack pakistan not the capability also shown in 9 month long military deployment by india which was ofcourse matched by pakistan that frightened india .

Its very good to hear in usa that india and israel go along well noone has problem with that .

But please keep all things in mind when discussing conservative talk leads to nothing except waste of bandwidth.

CHeers

Vermuz

[Simon]

Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar. Can take care of India alone. Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed.

[Vermuz]

Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.
========

I didn`t know of the fact that anything that doesn`t suite u is :hashih induced mr simon anyways i don`t freakin care about that .

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar.
=====================================
Pakistan and china tested this radar "J-231" in 1998 . IT is an advanced radar based on the russian radar that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia if you don`t know about military technology iam sorry for that . A later version of that was tested with an Ft-2000 awacs killer . Pakistan makes em under license from china .


Can take care of India alone.
=======================================
Yes please care to open minority report 1998 from us state department available in libraries too ; clear writing if you know english :) that pakistan has enough capability to take care of india in any conflict . Both pakistan and india have joint enough nukes to flatten that region so it will be no win situation both will lose .China will be left alone as regional superpower. However a new initiative by usa has started usa has decided it wants india
and pakistan united on nato aegis to take on chinese threat it will be kinda difficult to bring em together but americans are known for their tactics iam proud of that !! hahaa

Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.
============================
Yes ; turkish have been very interested in nuclear facilities made by pakistan for turkey but deal is in freeze as americans have asked for calm till mr saddam is dealt with . Pakistan according to russia has enough nukes to torch its enemies . United states has been very helpful which i don`t understand since iam in usa . Usa has openly helped pakistan develop more weapons and wants it to continue development kinda double policy as it has been very good to india too but it has has been arming pakistan and is arming pakistan .

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed

Ummm yeah china and pakistan have same strategy for india . Pakistan has militarily pressed india and will continue as china wants it . But there is difference between whore and ally.

The definition of whore sets on britain as whore of usa or middle eastern countries like uae and qatar . An ally is that they are good but not on every issue . Pakistan and china had some conflicting policies on arm sales when pakistan bought french and german technology instead of chinese tech but chinese said we understand pakistan`s need . On the other hand united arab emirates left russian Su-37 to take a 1970 us plane F-16 su-37 trials in china showed it even took out american F-15 in tests so thats a whore .

Thanks for the reply by the way .

May God take care of israel and God bless america.
I will expect some mannerism in next post so that words like hashish are avoided
thanks!
Cheers
vermuz

[Vermuz]

Originally posted by Vermuz
Some serious hashish-induced hallucinations here.
========

I didn`t know of the fact that anything that doesn`t suite u is :hashih induced mr simon anyways i don`t freakin care about that .

Pakistan having steath-detecting radar.
=====================================
Pakistan and china tested this radar "J-231" in 1998 . IT is an advanced radar based on the russian radar that downed the american F-117 in yugoslavia if you don`t know about military technology iam sorry for that . A later version of that was tested with an Ft-2000 awacs killer . Pakistan makes em under license from china .


Can take care of India alone.
=======================================
Yes please care to open minority report 1998 from us state department available in libraries too ; clear writing if you know english :) that pakistan has enough capability to take care of india in any conflict . Both pakistan and india have joint enough nukes to flatten that region so it will be no win situation both will lose .China will be left alone as regional superpower. However a new initiative by usa has started usa has decided it wants india
and pakistan united on nato aegis to take on chinese threat it will be kinda difficult to bring em together but americans are known for their tactics iam proud of that !! hahaa

Is going to alter the strategic balance of power in Asia and between Turkey and Greece.
============================
Yes ; turkish have been very interested in nuclear facilities made by pakistan for turkey but deal is in freeze as americans have asked for calm till mr saddam is dealt with . Pakistan according to russia has enough nukes to torch its enemies . United states has been very helpful which i don`t understand since iam in usa . Usa has openly helped pakistan develop more weapons and wants it to continue development kinda double policy as it has been very good to india too but it has has been arming pakistan and is arming pakistan .

About the only thing right was that Pakistan is China's whore. China is conveniently using Pakistan to thwart Indias' progress. And if in the process, Pakistan is completely destroyed and India mortally wounded, Why, China will be very happy indeed

Ummm yeah china and pakistan have same strategy for india . Pakistan has militarily pressed india and will continue as china wants it . But there is difference between whore and ally.

The definition of whore sets on britain as whore of usa or middle eastern countries like uae and qatar . An ally is that they are good but not on every issue . Pakistan and china had some conflicting policies on arm sales when pakistan bought french and german technology instead of chinese tech but chinese said we understand pakistan`s need . On the other hand united arab emirates left russian Su-37 to take a 1970 us plane F-16 su-37 trials in china showed it even took out american F-15 in tests so thats a whore .

Thanks for the reply by the way .

May God take care of israel and God bless america.
I will expect some mannerism in next post so that words like hashish are avoided
thanks!
Cheers
vermuz

The thingi about koran is that its a text which has two thingis "universal semantics" and some "old semantics".

universal semantics is something said in broad sense but some illiterate fanatic takes it as something which suites him and then there is the old semantics the thingi that book has somethings that were related to that era when it came about 1400 years ago those thingis cannot be practised now . i have read about islam there was a caliph "omar" who was respected that moslems have said that if there could be a prophet after "muhammad" then it would have been omar . If you read about him he has in many instances told moslems to do thingis told in koran but didn`t go along with the era so he often said "Take along the universal semantics" like the pillars of islam prayers , fasting ecetera but then decide whats better for that era . In those times islam was new and moslems were few they were being hunted so it was necessay to defend and fight but then islam has also gone for deals with jews for co-existence in peace . Moslems and jews also fought together against atheist .

So if you wanna kill ppl you don`t need much help in taking one meaning from a univeral text or old text . So people like ossama who quote these verses are using it for em not islam ; islam is a religion of co-existence not hegemony .

If you check out american darpa where scientists come and research for american military and technology 18% are americans most of em are pakistanis and indians . They live their with americans as americans and also practise islam to some extent . Come to u c berkeley ; caltech , MIT U SEE it everywhere ! Don`t mix up islam with that :) Islam is much bigger sense than that .

Every religion that God has sent jewish , christianity and Islam all are based on peace and co-existence . If someone takes out one meaning and starts killing the religions are not bad ; its the narrow mind of that person who has done it fullfill his or her desires. Think about it sometime !

[Mediocrates]

JT-2000 is HARM system, appears to be airborne, sidelooking.

J-231 is a anti/SAM radar, the specs I found didn't appear to be that groundbreaking. It has enhanced groundclutter stripping so one would assume it's downlooking.

ADS-37 may be vaporware or in test mode.

[Vermuz]

EXCELLENT mr mediocrate good to see fellow american here .

NOW

ads-37 - pakistan`s missile defence system under development
J-221 - joined service in 2000.

Lets talk about 2001/2002

NEW TECHNOLOGY


Report on Chinese Radar Worries US
Taipei Times

China is deploying an anti-aircraft defense system that uses technology so advanced it can track even Stealth-type warplanes.

US intelligence analysts expressed worries that the new early-warning defence system could defeat current US Air Force tactics against enemy air defenses, Newsweek reported.

"Everyone is wondering about the cost of defending Taiwan," an intelligence source told the magazine.

Current anti-aircraft defenses use radar to track incoming aircraft, but outgoing signals can be found and jammed or destroyed.

The "passive" technology that US officials believe the Chinese have detects aircraft by monitoring disruptions in commercial radio and TV signals, and are essentially undetectable, Newsweek reported.

The technology, which could detect US stealth aircraft, including the F-117 bomber and even the futuristic F-22 fighter, has so alarmed the defence community that top military and industry experts have been called to a secret meeting in December to discuss the strategic implications.

Current anti-aircraft defenses are cued by radars that detect and track incoming aircraft. But the radars are vulnerable because their signals can be jammed or missiles can be launched to ride back down the radar beams and destroy the transmitters.

Newsweek said China's new Passive Coherent Location (PCL) system tracked the signals of civilian radio and television broadcasts and picked up aircraft by analyzing the minute turbulence their flight caused in the commercial wavelengths.

One expert, who asked not to be named said ,that hardware for PCL has not reached deployment stage.

But china has already completed Ft-2000 and is progressively working on Ft-2000A.

==============
KIEV INTERNATIONAL

PAKISTAN INTENDS TO EQUIP ITS THREE ARMED SERVICES WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS

The government of Pakistan has instructed the Defence Ministry of Pakistan to elaborate a strategic plan to equip all the three armed services of the country's Armed Forces with nuclear weapons of domestic production and missile defence systems .
Pakistan has become a nuclear power and the government should think about the means of nuclear weapons delivery, admiral Mirza believes.
Given that the government makes a relevant decision, we are ready to modernise the submarines, he said. So far, two submarines of this class has been put into operation in the Pakistani Armed Forces. The third submarine will become operational until 2004.
After Pakistan held, following India, nuclear tests in May 1998, the USA stopped military cooperation with that country. Most European countries did not officially announce about the imposition of embargo on the delivery of military equipment and technologies to Pakistan but in practice they suspended such operations. According to Mirza, France, which had supplied submarines and several fighters to Pakistan, has delayed for years the delivery of earlier agreed supplies.
Ukraine, which has shipyards, displays interest in cooperation with Pakistan. According to the admiral, Kiev has sent a number of very advantageous offers at moderate prices, including powerful gas turbines for the Navy. Mirza further said that a delegation of Pakistani military and technical experts intended to make a trip to Ukraine to study the projects.
==============================
Pakistan`s influence on that region very beneficial for USA
Pakistan trains personnel for the Azerbaijanian army

Pakistani minister of Defense
Hamid Nawaz Khan's visit to Baku
foto TURAN
Baku, AZERBAIJAN. Azerbaijan’s armed forces are ready to go into action any minute to liberate lands occupied by Armenia, and serious preparation is underway now for that purpose, Azerbaijani defense minister Safar Abiev stated at a meeting with his Pakistani counterpart, Hamid Nawaz Khan, who is on an official visit in Baku now.

At a joint press conference in Baku later in the day, the Azerbaijani defense minister highly praised the level of military cooperation between the two countries. According to minister Abiev, five Azerbaijani officers are studying at the military educational institutions in Pakistan, and 19 more are expected to join them there soon.
The visiting Pakistani secretary of defense, in turn, stressed that the two countries have similar views on the matters related to fighting terrorism and separatism. He added that Islamabad supports Azerbaijan on the issue of the Nagorno Karabakh conflict settlement.
The two ministers signed yesterday a protocol on the defense and military cooperation. They also agreed that Pakistan would continue to provide training for Azerbaijani military personnel at Pakistani military educational facilities. It was decided that the parties would study possibilities of the military-and-technological cooperation.


Prima News Azerbaijan
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Pakistan to acquire anti-ballistic missile from US
Press Trust of India
November 05

Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf has approved the acquisition of an anti-ballistic missile system from the US, at an estimated over 1.5 billion dollars, to be deployed at key sensitive installations and nuclear facilities, Kyodo news agency quoting authoritative defence sources reported today.

The sources told the Japanese agency, on condition of anonimity, that the Defence Ministry has narrowed down its choices to the Patriot Air Defence System, the Nike Hercules missiles and the Hawk missile system.

The deal is estimated to cost more than 1.5 billion dollars and would be in addition to the military purchase that Pakistan has been negotiating with the US under the aegis of the Pakistan-US Defence Consultative Group, which met in Islamabad in September this year.

Washington has lifted a 1990 ban on supply of military equipment to Pakistan after Musharraf backed the US in its war against terrorism following the Sept 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the US.The sources said preliminary talks have been held with the US, which reportedly has expressed its willingness to supply an anti-missile system to Pakistan to discourage further missile proliferation in the region.

The three types of US anti-missile systems under consideration are readily available and delivery time is not expected to be long, the sources said.

The sources said the anti-ballistic missile system to be acquired from the US would be deployed mainly at nuclear facilities, and sites where indigenously built-short and medium-range missiles are stored or deployed.

The Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defence system to counter ballistic missiles. .


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Ukraine Interested in Expanding Cooperation with Pakistan
Tarasyuk

Ukraine has a special stake in a broadening of trade and economic cooperation with Pakistan, Foreign Minister Borys Tarasyuk said at a meeting with that country's Ambassador Shamun Khan, who delivered his letters of credence. In Tarasyuk's opinion, there are real opportunities for participation of Ukrainian experts in modernization of Pakistan's steel-making enterprises and construction of railroads. Ukraine is also ready to deliver to Pakistan modern vessels and power engineering equipment. The sides have also called for acceleration of contacts between the two countries at a government level. In this connection they expressed the need for signing as soon as possible a Ukrainian-Pakistani agreement on trade and economic cooperation to stipulate, in particular, the creation of a bilateral intergovernmental commission for those problems.Pakistan also remains commited to buying An-70 military transport planes from Ukraine in large numbers and also discuss joint production.

Verkhovna Rada

What do ya see pakistan is important for usa so thinkin pakistan is not important is immature ; i will like israel to have good relations with pakistan . they can help alot in coming times ; israel`s relationship with india is important too because both pakistan and india are big countries and can increase israel`s reach to the world .

[Vermuz]

Pakistan's first SLV to be ready by 2003

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan's second experimental satellite BADR-2 will be launched on a Russian rocket from the Baikonour Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan in March 2000, according to a Pakistani space scientist.

The Chairman of the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO), Mr. Abdul Majid, said the BADR-2 satellite would be launched from Baikonour Cosmodrome on a Russian 'Zenit-2' rocket.

"The main mission objectives of BADR-2 programme include indigenous development of low-cost