It is not easy to become a Jew but some succeed..

[Toga]

Large increase in conversion rate

Over 5,000 people converted to Judaism in 2005, according to statistics released by rabbinic courts. The figure represents a significant increase from recent years. (Diana Bahur-Nir)

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html
=======================================
Significant Increase in Converts to Judaism
17:58 Oct 02, '05 / 28 Elul 5765


(IsraelNN.com) There has been a significant increase in the numbers of converts to Judaism this year, according to the rabbis in charge of the state-supported conversion courts. There have been approximately 5,360 conversion documents issued in nine months of 2005, as opposed to 3,599 such completed conversions in all of 2004.

About one year ago, the conversion courts were transferred from the jurisdiction of the now-defunct religion ministry to that of the office of the prime minister.

[Bashtc]

5360 is all?

Oh well with people like Toga openly discouraging us non Jews from converting then that number will never rise much more above that.

[Womble]

5360 is all?

Oh well with people like Toga openly discouraging us non Jews from converting then that number will never rise much more above that.
Judaism doesn't seek converts, Bashtc. We accept converts, but only those who come with serious intentions and are completely aware of the consequences of their decision, the responsibilities it entails and the fact that one doesn't have to be Jewish to be righteous. And a person truly serious about converting to a faith will hardly be discouraged by a single person's annoying attitude.

[KettleWhistle]

Actually, that's way too many. Scripturally, conversions are only acceptable in cases of intermarriage, and ideally the number of both intermarriages and conversions ought to be 0. Sorry, but we Jews are perfectly fine with you following your own people's traditions, and not budding in on ours.

To cool off Toga's excitement, most of these people are just bubble-gum-popping airheads who liked their little JAP friends and decided that Judaism is "like so cool."

[Bashtc]

Toga has explained this to me on many occassion and I am under no illusions. Judaism or any religion is not for me. If it was a small commitment (such as to become a Christian) then for the happiness of my future wife and children I would convert in name but obviously never follow the laws.

But is the non conversion thing not a legacy of a Jewish history of living alongside Christians who would have acted with hostility if you had tried to convert? Jews are still in the same mindset? Left weakenend and cowering next to their Christian neighbours?

I have real issues with my children being brought up as victims within a western european culture. I would rather tha they were proud to be Jewish and would gladly encourage others to follow their beliefs.

[KettleWhistle]

But is the non conversion thing not a legacy of a Jewish history of living alongside Christians who would have acted with hostility if you had tried to convert?

It has nothing to do with the history of Jewish-Christian interactions.

[Womble]

Toga has explained this to me on many occassion and I am under no illusions. Judaism or any religion is not for me. If it was a small commitment (such as to become a Christian) then for the happiness of my future wife and children I would convert in name but obviously never follow the laws.
But it isn't a small commitment, is it?


But is the non conversion thing not a legacy of a Jewish history of living alongside Christians who would have acted with hostility if you had tried to convert? Jews are still in the same mindset? Left weakenend and cowering next to their Christian neighbours?
Not really. Jews never sought to converts everyone to Judaism. It simply isn't in the nature of our faith and it makes no theological sense. There are no benefits in being Jewish. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to be righteous by observing the 7 Noachide commandments than for a Jew to be righteous observing the 613 commandments that are compulsory to all Jews. So people who come to Judaism should come because they want to share our burden and our responsibility, not because of momentary fashion or in search of benefits in this life or in the afterlife.


I have real issues with my children being brought up as victims within a western european culture. I would rather tha they were proud to be Jewish and would gladly encourage others to follow their beliefs.
You can be proud to be Jewish without trying to convert others.

[Bashtc]

"Share the burden". I am sure the Jewish people did not speak about this burden 2000 years ago. If Abraham had followed the same principle then at most Jewish people would number a few thousand at the most today. Its a modern distortion of your religion and people. You let Christianity replace you as the religion of choice and took on this victim mentality which has made it all the more easier for people to attack you.

My fiancee never tells non Jewish people that I introduce her to about her religion or faith - she goes to great efforts to hide it. She picks up foods from her mother at pessach and they go to great lengths to maintain that the bag she is carrying them in does not come open so that people can see she is Jewish in the streets through fear of being attacked.

Much of the accepted Jewish thinking is farcical. Its long time that you all dug yourselves out of this rut. The founders of Israel went against these preordained notions and won the Jewish people their homeland back.

[KettleWhistle]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Crack open a book and read a bit. Jews are a nation with a religion, not a religion with a nation. And I do feel sorry for your fiance. People like her are a disgrace to our nation. And I'm telling you that as an atheist American Hebrew/Jew.

[KettleWhistle]

As a side note, would you go to a Greek forum and tell Greeks to abandon their ancestoral traditions in order to get themselves out of their rut?

[Bashtc]

Yes I would go to a Greek board. Likewise I tackle the anti Europeans who set up stalls in my high street in the UK on a saturday telling everyone how Europe is bringing nothing but misery to the UK.

These are people with a similar mindset. They are conservatives, reactionaries who will never be able to grasp the realities of the need for change. They despise Brussels and non British and want to keep the UK separate from our neighbours and fellow EU citizens. They are racists and bigots for the most part.

I am a proud European and in the same way I want my children to be proud Europeans and proud Jews. Embracing change.

Toga throws the same go and read argument at me. It is the standard retort,because yes us non Jews will never be as knowledgeable on the subject as people born into Judaism, but the one advantage I have is being impartial and able to view the situation of the Jewish people from an outside perspective. There are many issues your people need to address and burying your heads in dogma is not the way forward.

My fiancee may be a disgrace to many US Jewish people but she makes a great European, French citizen, mother and wife. The French Jewish community who are numerous and for the most part more liberal accept her and most subscribe to the same beliefs. Your dogma and the dogma of Jews like you is why more and more people will turn away from Judaism unless you can be made to change your fixed mindset.

[KettleWhistle]

You are a nutcase

My fiancee may be a disgrace to many US Jewish people but she makes a great European, French citizen, mother and wife. The French Jewish community who are numerous and for the most part more liberal accept her and most subscribe to the same beliefs. Your dogma and the dogma of Jews like you is why more and more people will turn away from Judaism unless you can be made to change your fixed mindset.

I'm sure a Jew who's ashamed of people knowing she's a Jew makes for a great "lieberal" French Jewess! Well, I am a proud American and a proud Jew, and I don't need to change my mindset in order to become intollerant to others. I don't have problems with people knowing my ethnic identity, only reasons to be proud of it. But you can have your intollerance and your closeted-Jew girlfriend. Not my problem.

P.S. Do go to a Greek forum and tell them to stop celebrating their national holidays. Or to conduct their celebrations clandestinely. Let us know how that goes.

[Bashtc]

Kettle she is in no way ashamed. That is your assumption only. She is fearful of how they will react. She has encountered too many hostile reactions.

I want that my children are more able to stand up and say they are Jewish and argue against the anti Israel nonsense that is for the most part believed by most Europeans.

Her being closeted is part of the Jewish conditioning or "burden". Us non Jewish Europeans would never stand for it and I am trying as hard as I can to get her out of that way of perceiving her Jewish identity.

[KettleWhistle]

Her being closeted is part of the Jewish conditioning or "burden". Us non Jewish Europeans would never stand for it and I am trying as hard as I can to get her out of that way of perceiving her Jewish identity.

Being closeted and fearful is a part of the European Jewish conditioning. It is not a part of traditional/religious burden.

[Womble]

"Share the burden". I am sure the Jewish people did not speak about this burden 2000 years ago.
And I am sure they did. The rule that a person coming to convert should be rejected three times is a Talmudic rule, I believe. Being the Chosen nation has always been a burden, the commandments alone are a full time job.


If Abraham had followed the same principle then at most Jewish people would number a few thousand at the most today.
Did Abraham convert people en masse? Nope, he merely had children, and his children had children, and this is how the Jewish people came along.


Its a modern distortion of your religion and people. You let Christianity replace you as the religion of choice and took on this victim mentality which has made it all the more easier for people to attack you.
On the contrary. I find that the obsessive desire to convert others is an indication of weakness and fear that the faith will crumble if new blood stops flowing in, while choosing only those who prove the seriousness of intentions indicates high confidence.


My fiancee never tells non Jewish people that I introduce her to about her religion or faith - she goes to great efforts to hide it. She picks up foods from her mother at pessach and they go to great lengths to maintain that the bag she is carrying them in does not come open so that people can see she is Jewish in the streets through fear of being attacked.
This says a lot about the kind of society you live in. It does not, however, say anything about Judaism as a faith- or about your fiancee as KW seems to suggest.


Much of the accepted Jewish thinking is farcical. Its long time that you all dug yourselves out of this rut. The founders of Israel went against these preordained notions and won the Jewish people their homeland back.
The founders of Israel were what I would term agressive atheists. It is no accident that most of them were Russian born socialists. They rejected Judaism altogether as an obstacle to the national component of Jewishness, just like the Reform Judaism, in its beginning, tried to reject the national component altogether in order to imitate Christianity and become "just a faith".

[KettleWhistle]

The founders of Israel were what I would term agressive atheists. It is no accident that most of them were Russian born socialists. They rejected Judaism altogether as an obstacle to the national component of Jewishness

That's not true. They simply separated religious observance from the legal establishment. They did not try to do away with tradition. Shabat was and is the day off. Ben-Gurion himself consulted with rabbis on a number of matters. All the religious holidays were observed. They took out God, but not the tradition.

As a side note to the whole socialist myth, let's not forget that most kibbutzim and land purchases were subsidized by the money collected from West European Jewish businessmen. It was only after 2nd and 3rd Aliahs that they would start passing around the hat in the poverty-stricken stetls of Eastern Europe, where many would chose to go hungry for a day or two and give their food money to Israel.

[Bashtc]

Kettle did the founders of Israel not adopt hebrew as the official language which in itself broke with Jewish tradition? They placed women in the frontline and broke down a whole number of established dogma.

These are the people I will make my children look to as an example of how to be a successful, good person and also a Jew.

[Womble]

That's not true. They simply separated religious observance from the legal establishment.
Can you name a single founding father of the state of Israel who was observant to any meaningful degree?


They did not try to do away with tradition. Shabat was and is the day off. Ben-Gurion himself consulted with rabbis on a number of matters. All the religious holidays were observed. They took out God, but not the tradition.
"Took out God" means took out Judaism as a faith.


As a side note to the whole socialist myth, let's not forget that most kibbutzim and land purchases were subsidized by the money collected from West European Jewish businessmen. It was only after 2nd and 3rd Aliahs that they would start passing around the hat in the poverty-stricken stetls of Eastern Europe, where many would chose to go hungry for a day or two and give their food money to Israel.
And how does it change matters?

[KettleWhistle]

How is speaking our native language breaks the Jewish tradition? If anything, it only enforced the original and authentic Jewish culture.

As for women, it is a matter of having a secular society. Women were not forced to serve, nor are they now. Any woman can get exemption from the millitary service. Unlike true socialist states, religion was not prohibited, and was even endorsed on many levels.

But you seem to be confusing the "ghetto mentality" with Jewish traditions. It is not our tradition to be ashamed of who we are or to try to abdicate our identity. Nor is having pride in who you are a burden. Our traditions are based on tolerance for others, and for pluralism and diversity among our own.

[KettleWhistle]

Can you name a single founding father of the state of Israel who was observant to any meaningful degree?
I don't know what you would consider meaningful. It is well-known that Ben-Gurion acknowledged the religion and prayed on many occasions. Same can be said about many other nominally atheist people.
"Took out God" means took out Judaism as a faith.
Yes and no. They didn't do away with traditions. After all they did celebrate Hanuka and Pesach. They marked Rosh HaShana. It is rather relative.

And how does it change matters? It breaks the myth of any sort of hardcore ideology supposedly being their motivator. They were not Lenins or Maos of the Jewish people. They idealized a certain lifestyle, and they lived it. But they were no fanatics, ascribing to some doctrine, and pushing it beyond anything reasonable and practical. After all, socialism is defined as an order where there is no private ownership of the means of production. That was never the case in the State of Israel.

[Toga]

Kettle did the founders of Israel not adopt hebrew as the official language which in itself broke with Jewish tradition? They placed women in the frontline and broke down a whole number of established dogma.


So, what?

Did they stop being Jewish? Hell, no.

For some reason you still cannot grasp the essense of Jewishness.

[Toga]

How is speaking our native language breaks the Jewish tradition? If anything, it only enforced the original and authentic Jewish culture.

As for women, it is a matter of having a secular society. Women were not forced to serve, nor are they now. Any woman can get exemption from the millitary service. Unlike true socialist states, religion was not prohibited, and was even endorsed on many levels.

But you seem to be confusing the "ghetto mentality" with Jewish traditions. It is not our tradition to be ashamed of who we are or to try to abdicate our identity. Nor is having pride in who you are a burden. Our traditions are based on tolerance for others, and for pluralism and diversity among our own.

I agree.

[Bashtc]

Morning Toga my old friend. Yep that old argument. I aint Jewish therefore I cannot possibly comprehend or grasp in this case. You are all on a plain way beyond us mere mortals. A people without equal.

No wonder your favourite anti semites post about Jewish people not integrating when they continue to come across opinions like yours on the board.

[Mediocrates]

Actually, that's way too many. Scripturally, conversions are only acceptable in cases of intermarriage, and ideally the number of both intermarriages and conversions ought to be 0. Sorry, but we Jews are perfectly fine with you following your own people's traditions, and not budding in on ours.

To cool off Toga's excitement, most of these people are just bubble-gum-popping airheads who liked their little JAP friends and decided that Judaism is "like so cool."


About 20-25% of my Orthodox congregation is 'converts'.

[Toga]

Toga has explained this to me on many occassion and I am under no illusions. Judaism or any religion is not for me. If it was a small commitment (such as to become a Christian) then for the happiness of my future wife and children I would convert in name but obviously never follow the laws.

But is the non conversion thing not a legacy of a Jewish history of living alongside Christians who would have acted with hostility if you had tried to convert? Jews are still in the same mindset? Left weakenend and cowering next to their Christian neighbours?

I have real issues with my children being brought up as victims within a western european culture. I would rather tha they were proud to be Jewish and would gladly encourage others to follow their beliefs.

Gosh, so many misconceptions.

1. Can you please guess who are the churches all over Europe are dedicated to?

2. The Christians would have loved if the Jews converted. They are to turn us into the Christians on a daily basis.

3. The Western European culture is intertwined with anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is a part of the West European culture. Christian Europeans suck in the anti-Semitic virus with the mother's milk.

4. Please rest assured when it comes to pride, self-identification, security, etc. most Jews know who they are. That is why the Christian Europe could not turn them into something else. There are 300 Christian denominations. Do they know who they are?

[Mediocrates]

It has nothing to do with the history of Jewish-Christian interactions.


Other than the fact that Jewish proselytizing in the Christian west was a death sentence for about 1,000 years.

[Toga]

Morning Toga my old friend. Yep that old argument. I aint Jewish therefore I cannot possibly comprehend or grasp in this case. You are all on a plain way beyond us mere mortals. A people without equal.

No wonder your favourite anti semites post about Jewish people not integrating when they continue to come across opinions like yours on the board.

What do you mean by integrating? Do we need to become like the European savages, drunks, racists to be accepted?

[Mediocrates]

But is the non conversion thing not a legacy of a Jewish history of living alongside Christians who would have acted with hostility if you had tried to convert? Jews are still in the same mindset? Left weakenend and cowering next to their Christian neighbours?




I agree that Judaism needs to adopt an aggressive proselytizing stance now. I believe wholeheartedly that Judaism needs to discard the conversion aversion. I fully support any meaningful effort to embrace any mixed marriage that is going to the trouble of providing a Jewish education and a Jewish experience for their children.

But I'm a heretic.......

[Toga]

Morning Toga my old friend. Yep that old argument. I aint Jewish therefore I cannot possibly comprehend or grasp in this case. You are all on a plain way beyond us mere mortals. A people without equal.

No wonder your favourite anti semites post about Jewish people not integrating when they continue to come across opinions like yours on the board.

.....and by the way, the European Christians or their secular descendents will hate the Jews no matter what. It comes natural to them.

[Toga]

I agree that Judaism needs to adopt an aggressive proselytizing stance now. I believe wholeheartedly that Judaism needs to discard the conversion aversion. I fully support any meaningful effort to embrace any mixed marriage that is going to the trouble of providing a Jewish education and a Jewish experience for their children.

But I'm a heretic.......

If we adopt their dogma then we would not be who we are. The reason the Jews don't peddle their faith all around the world is because it is a secure faith. We do not need the middleman or middlewoman to communicate with G-d.

As for the mix marriages adopting the Jewish tradition, etc. some do and some do not. Some continue the Jewish traditions but the majority does not.

[KettleWhistle]

About 20-25% of my Orthodox congregation is 'converts'.

Fake Jews. What else new?

[Bashtc]

Oh Toga you are waffling again. Try not to resort to crude racial stereotypes and dragging up the worst parts of European culture. Do you see anyone on any board ever ramming Christian hatred down your throat? My family who are Europeans of Christian descent accept and love my Jewish family.

[Toga]

Morning Toga my old friend. Yep that old argument. I aint Jewish therefore I cannot possibly comprehend or grasp in this case. You are all on a plain way beyond us mere mortals. A people without equal.

No wonder your favourite anti semites post about Jewish people not integrating when they continue to come across opinions like yours on the board.


Considering how tiny the population is do you think 20% of the Nobel Prize winners would have been Jewish had the Jews become like their European neighbors?

[Mediocrates]

Kettle she is in no way ashamed. That is your assumption only. She is fearful of how they will react. She has encountered too many hostile reactions.

I want that my children are more able to stand up and say they are Jewish and argue against the anti Israel nonsense that is for the most part believed by most Europeans.

Her being closeted is part of the Jewish conditioning or "burden". Us non Jewish Europeans would never stand for it and I am trying as hard as I can to get her out of that way of perceiving her Jewish identity.


Perhaps that is a unique problem of living where you do? I have no problem walking around being obviously and visibly Jewish here in the US in the heart of the Bible Belt, the 'deep south'. I will say when I was in Portsmouth, I encountered a kind of soft bigotry; lost reservations, missing cabs, hotels that 'screwed up', that kind of thing. But nothing like overt in your face dislike. Similarly I haven't encountered direct threats and violence in France, at least not in Normandy or in the parts of Paris I've been to. Maybe if I lived there long term it would be different. In either case, every day I can pick up a paper and read about the Radical Vanguard in Britain over this cause or that. Seems like you folks just love to tolerate each other to death with bricks and fists and bullhorns.

[Mediocrates]

Fake Jews. What else new?


Why don't you bite me.

[Bashtc]

Toga my Jewish fiancee firmly beleives that she is creating two+ Jews for the price of one. She sees it as part of her obligation to replace the Jewish people lost in Europe 1933-1945.

Yes you can just role over and admit defeat against European racism and intolerance or you can get back in there and fight the intolerance. My children and their descendants will be at the heart of Europe fighting the intolerance for generations to come. Judaism has a stong past and a very clear role to play in building a future Europe.

[Toga]

Oh Toga you are waffling again. Try not to resort to crude racial stereotypes and dragging up the worst parts of European culture. Do you see anyone on any board ever ramming Christian hatred down your throat? My family who are Europeans of Christian descent accept and love my Jewish family.

Good, so, what does it mean? Jews are respectful and very appreciative of all religions and people but only Judaism is applicable to Jews. When you come to Israel you would see how diverse the Jews are.

[Womble]

I agree that Judaism needs to adopt an aggressive proselytizing stance now. I believe wholeheartedly that Judaism needs to discard the conversion aversion. I fully support any meaningful effort to embrace any mixed marriage that is going to the trouble of providing a Jewish education and a Jewish experience for their children.

But I'm a heretic.......
You want Judaism devalued to the same point as Christianity is devalued now?

[Mediocrates]

If we adopt their dogma then we would not be who we are.


I don't believe that for a second and neither do most people I know. Like it or not there is a thread of elitism in Judaism. I am great therefore you are not, that kind of thing.

The reason the Jews don't peddle their faith all around the world is because it is a secure faith. We do not need the middleman or middlewoman to communicate with G-d.

Liturgically that is correct but it's unrelated. Jews don't proselytize for many reasons both religious and historical.

As for the mix marriages adopting the Jewish tradition, etc. some do and some do not. Some continue the Jewish traditions but the majority does not.

And when we abandon those who DO, we pretty much deserve what we get. Anyone who's involved in shul operations or politics knows this inherently. Reform membership is up, Orthodox is up and Conservative is way down because it talks the talk but never follows through. They all talk about ingathering but is never amounts to much. In Orthodox and Reform the boundaries are clear which is why people tend to flock to them.

[Bashtc]

Toga I called off my planned trip to Israel. It just is not right for me to go off alone and leave the woman at home preganant and on her own. If I go to Israel then chances are it will be with my children and will be a chance to introduce them to their extended family in Israel.

[Toga]

Toga my Jewish fiancee firmly beleives that she is creating two+ Jews for the price of one. She sees it as part of her obligation to replace the Jewish people lost in Europe 1933-1945.

Yes you can just role over and admit defeat against European racism and intolerance or you can get back in there and fight the intolerance. My children and their descendants will be at the heart of Europe fighting the intolerance for generations to come. Judaism has a stong past and a very clear role to play in building a future Europe.

I disagree. Jews have no future in Europe while the Muslims have a future in Europe. Smart European Jewish children do not fight. Why should they fight? Smart Jewish kids study, aspire and make aliyah. They need to leave the fighting to the descendents of the Euro Christians, new European immigrants etc. as there are too few Jews in Europe. Europe has been lethal to the Jewish people.

A good indicator what is going to come is to watch what the Jews do, if the Jews stay or leave. The number of Jews who are seeking a way to leave the UK, France, etc. is going up.

Jews have the intuition.

[Mediocrates]

You want Judaism devalued to the same point as Christianity is devalued now?


That's a dull statement. I might as well ask you why we shouldn't denigrate the teachings of Solovechiek and Kook because they worked to include women in the service. There is a huge difference between being traditionalist and conservative and being a fundamentalist. If you turn away people out of hand when they reach out to you then you and your 9 old machers who meet for minyan 3 times a week need to form your own social club. I for one am sick to death of Super Jews who'd rather be princes of a population of one.

[Toga]

Toga I called off my planned trip to Israel. It just is not right for me to go off alone and leave the woman at home preganant and on her own. If I go to Israel then chances are it will be with my children and will be a chance to introduce them to their extended family in Israel.

OK! So?

Israel is a bureaucratic Jewish Zionist democracy. Her borders are not defined and challenged by the hostile neighbors. It is a tangible piece of real estate the Jews can finally be proud of. However, until the creation of the modern Israel the Jews of Europe were sustained not by Zionism or Israel but by the Jewish traditions, education, Torah, culture, etc - the most valuable assets.

[KettleWhistle]

That's a dull statement. I might as well ask you why we shouldn't denigrate the teachings of Solovechiek and Kook because they worked to include women in the service. There is a huge difference between being traditionalist and conservative and being a fundamentalist. If you turn away people out of hand when they reach out to you then you and your 9 old machers who meet for minyan 3 times a week need to form your own social club. I for one am sick to death of Super Jews who'd rather be princes of a population of one.

People are turned away because they are not Jews, and have no connection to our people or our traditions. I am a Jew because that's how I was born and it is from whom I have descended (Abraham & Family). Israel matters to me because that's where my people, my direct ancestors are from. These facts would not change if I converted to Greek Orthodoxy--I would not all of the sudden become Greek and have some sort of loyalty or interest in Greece. Same holds for the converted pseudo-Jews. For the large part these people are disenfranchised quacks who decide to embrace traditions of some strange people to whom they have no relation whatsoever. They need to be kept out so that we can preserve who we are as a nation.

[Womble]

That's a dull statement. I might as well ask you why we shouldn't denigrate the teachings of Solovechiek and Kook because they worked to include women in the service. There is a huge difference between being traditionalist and conservative and being a fundamentalist. If you turn away people out of hand when they reach out to you then you and your 9 old machers who meet for minyan 3 times a week need to form your own social club. I for one am sick to death of Super Jews who'd rather be princes of a population of one.
It's not a dull statement. Including women into service is one thing, accepting converts en masse on first demand is another. If you start accepting people who do not take their new faith seriously, you will inevitably end up with people whose Jewishness is purely nominal. The Reform Judaism has made this mistake already- and it has eroded itself to the point that some Reformists don't regard their faith as a faith anymore, but rather as some kind of social movement with no real commitment.

[Bashtc]

They need to be kept out so that we can preserve who we are as a nation.

Very telling. I hear this argument all the time in Europe. Usually it is by the least forward looking people amongst my society who will have minimal part in shaping the continents future. The advancement of any people or society comes through diversity and opening up to other peoples and ideas.

[KettleWhistle]

Very telling. I hear this argument all the time in Europe. Usually it is by the least forward looking people amongst my society who will have minimal part in shaping the continents future. The advancement of any people or society comes through diversity and opening up to other peoples and ideas.

Being open to other people's ideas and cherishing diversity doesn't mean that we should just abandon who we are, forsake our identity, and assimilate into foreign cultures. Generally, Jews are just fine with you being who you are and living the way you want to live. It seems that it is people like you who want for us to seize to exist because you just can't tolerate us being who we are and living the way we want to live.

[Mediocrates]

It's not a dull statement. Including women into service is one thing, accepting converts en masse on first demand is another. If you start accepting people who do not take their new faith seriously, you will inevitably end up with people whose Jewishness is purely nominal. The Reform Judaism has made this mistake already- and it has eroded itself to the point that some Reformists don't regard their faith as a faith anymore, but rather as some kind of social movement with no real commitment.


So my born Orthodox friends who don't walk to shul and have their cell phones go off on Shabbat are...what? Judaism has ALWAYS set a higher bar for converts than for itself. And that bar is arbitrary. Go talk to a Chabad rabbi - he'll tell you conversion is trivial: a) go to the rabbi we tell you to go to. b) do the conversion process which itself is rather trivial c) become absolutely Frum. Moreso than people who have been Orthodox their entire lives d) allow us to veto even our own criteria and continually set the bar ever higher.

Then when they just give up say "I told you so".

[Mediocrates]

People are turned away because they are not Jews, and have no connection to our people or our traditions. I am a Jew because that's how I was born and it is from whom I have descended (Abraham & Family). Israel matters to me because that's where my people, my direct ancestors are from. These facts would not change if I converted to Greek Orthodoxy--I would not all of the sudden become Greek and have some sort of loyalty or interest in Greece. Same holds for the converted pseudo-Jews. For the large part these people are disenfranchised quacks who decide to embrace traditions of some strange people to whom they have no relation whatsoever. They need to be kept out so that we can preserve who we are as a nation.


So you agree - it's pure elitism.

[KettleWhistle]

No, it has nothing to do with elitism--that would imply that Jews are somehow better. And that's not what I am saying. We are a different people. Period. The idea of general conversion to Judaism is as ridiculous as that of a converstion to Italian-ism, Greek-ism, Irish-ism, or any other ethnicity-ism. Unless, of course, you believe that if I go off my rocker and start worshipping Zeus, I'll become a Greek and would be justified in claiming a place in their nation and society.

[Mediocrates]

Being open to other people's ideas and cherishing diversity doesn't mean that we should just abandon who we are, forsake our identity, and assimilate into foreign cultures. Generally, Jews are just fine with you being who you are and living the way you want to live. It seems that it is people like you who want for us to seize to exist because you just can't tolerate us being who we are and living the way we want to live.


But even you're making it up as you go along. Your idea of being Jewish doesn't involve observance in the least and the parts of religiousity you claim are frankly, cultish. Which is fine in and of itself but you can't make that benchmark and a rather harsh one for everyone else. I know a Conservative Rabbi, a convert and a woman who's a helluva lot more "Jewish" than you.

It's not about who you're ready to exclude as what you're willing to put on the line. Painless 'cultural Judaism' that doesn't involve spirituality, observance, education, or mitzvoth is not worth much, at least not to anyone but you.

[KettleWhistle]

Your idea of being Jewish doesn't involve observance in the least and the parts of religiousity you claim are frankly, cultish.

My idea of being Jewish is ethnocentric. It has nothing to do with beliefs. You're either of Jewish blood, or you aren't. And if you're not, but would like to pretend that you are, then you are a fake. Plain and simple.

[Mediocrates]

oh ok -

[Toga]

So you agree - it's pure elitism.

Nope, it has nothing to do with elitism even though it is an anti-Semitic argument of a typical anti-Semite for the last 2000 years. The intolent, anti-Semitic Poles, Russians, Austrians, etc. wanted the Jews to shed their Jewishness and take on their faith. They viewed the Jews as a responsible party for the death of their savior. They put all kinds of restrictions on Jews because of the Jewish faith and how it was manifested.

Dermocracy does not mean that a Jew has to be in bed with a non-Jew, an Eskimo has to be in bed with an Aborigine, a Pole with an Arab, a straight man with a gay man, etc. Democracy is based on the freedom if choice. Many Jews marry the non-Jews. That is their choice even if they produce the non-Jewish kids. There are Jews who don't treat the continuation of the Jewish traditions as something important especially if they were born and raised by Jews who did not keep the Yiddishkeit at home themselves and are totally ignorant. Many Jews marry Jews and that is their choice. They produce the Jewish kids and continue the Jewish traditions and that is exactly what the anti-Semites hate.

[Mediocrates]

I read that twice - I can't make sense of it. If you think that only born-into Jews are capable or worthy of being Jews then you're no different than the Nuremburg race laws. If deny any possibilty that converts can add to the community of Jews then I don't know what to tell you.

[KettleWhistle]

The converts' relationship to the Jewish community is really no different than that of converts to Native American traditions who decide that they want to live on the rezervations for the rest of their lives. Even when accepted those people are out of place. And their contribution to the Jewish community is no different than that of those without a drop of Native American blood who decide to live the rest of their lives on the reservations. It is meaningless.

[redcake]

On converts, I'll relate this personal anecdote - even if it's not totally related....

I attended a private Jewish School as a kid, and after 5 days a week my parents never thought to put me in Sunday school as well. When it came time to be Bar Mitzva'd, the Conservative Temple my Grandparents were married at refused to do it. This Conservative Temple had been taken over by a board of directors made up of mainly over zealous converted Jews, and a Rabbi who would eventually gain a reputation for infusing Buddhism with Judaism, turned down my Bar Mitva unless I would make up 6 years of Sunday school first. So converts refused to see my Jewish private school (only two in that city) as an equivalent. I had to find a new Temple and the irony is, I ended up having to join a Congragation that was made up of mixed marriages who would marry, burry or Bar Mitva anyone. We eventually left that Temple when they had someone singing a song about Clowns during a Yom Kippur service. I kid you not.

[Toga]

I read that twice - I can't make sense of it. If you think that only born-into Jews are capable or worthy of being Jews then you're no different than the Nuremburg race laws. If deny any possibilty that converts can add to the community of Jews then I don't know what to tell you.


If you are addressing me, no, I never said that only the born-into Jews can be worthy of Jewishness. NO! Absolutely not. The properly converted Jews are as Jewish as any Jew. One of the major differences between us/our faith and other religions that we don't recruit, we do not missionize and we don't peddle our beliefs. Yet, both Islam and Christianity are rooted in Judaism.

We are an open religion. EVERYBODY CAN BECOME JEWISH! However, there is no inducement for a non-Jew to become Jewish other than his/hers own desire to convert, to believe in G-d without any middleman, to join the Jewish tribe and its long history, values and traditions.

[Toga]

On converts, I'll relate this personal anecdote - even if it's not totally related....

I attended a private Jewish School as a kid, and after 5 days a week my parents never thought to put me in Sunday school as well. When it came time to be Bar Mitzva'd, the Conservative Temple my Grandparents were married at refused to do it. This Conservative Temple had been taken over by a board of directors made up of mainly over zealous converted Jews, and a Rabbi who would eventually gain a reputation for infusing Buddhism with Judaism, turned down my Bar Mitva unless I would make up 6 years of Sunday school first. So converts refused to see my Jewish private school (only two in that city) as an equivalent. I had to find a new Temple and the irony is, I ended up having to join a Congragation that was made up of mixed marriages who would marry, burry or Bar Mitva anyone. We eventually left that Temple when they had someone singing a song about Clowns during a Yom Kippur service. I kid you not.

Nuts! However it is not totally surprising.

[Mediocrates]

Sounds like a synagogue problem not a convert problem. UCJ really does have standards and if your congregation doesn't follow them they run the risk of being 'decertified' as it were.

The general sense I get here is that you honestly believe that converts are not and should not be welcome. Ok well thanks for clearing that up.

[redcake]

Well my experience with converts has been pretty consitant in finding them unbearable. I'd like to just be all kick back and not care, but I think it's a really crummy process they have to go through, and as a result it makes for a synthetic Jew who isn't coming from a personal family heritage or preference. It means that they play by some rule book that no naturally born Jews I've ever come across follows with such rigidness. They use terms and talk about all those little holidays in the Jewish Calendar that only the most devout follow, with the same weight as Yom Kippur. It's that extreme, or they come off like what they are...clueless goyim who want to embrace a culture they don't understand.

I would agree with Kettle, but I do believe many of our 12 tribes have been assimilated into other cultures. If they wanna discover their geneaology and be Jews again, then who am I to stop them?

Um. But yeah, I have little use for them or communities where they're the majority of Jews in the room.

[Mira]

Well my experience with converts has been pretty consitant in finding them unbearable.

I sometimes feel that way about Jews in general.

[Toga]

Well my experience with converts has been pretty consitant in finding them unbearable. I'd like to just be all kick back and not care, but I think it's a really crummy process they have to go through, and as a result it makes for a synthetic Jew who isn't coming from a personal family heritage or preference. It means that they play by some rule book that no naturally born Jews I've ever come across follows with such rigidness. They use terms and talk about all those little holidays in the Jewish Calendar that only the most devout follow, with the same weight as Yom Kippur. It's that extreme, or they come off like what they are...clueless goyim who want to embrace a culture they don't understand.

I would agree with Kettle, but I do believe many of our 12 tribes have been assimilated into other cultures. If they wanna discover their geneaology and be Jews again, then who am I to stop them?

Um. But yeah, I have little use for them or communities where they're the majority of Jews in the room.

We need to embrace the converts. Their struggle is understandable. It is not easy to be Jewish.

On another note, your experiences prove that the Orthodox Jews are always right. We think that we are discovering something new but what we are learning the Orthodox Jews knew from an early age.

No wonder they are secure in their own skin while the ignorant, uneducated Jews are going in all kinds of directions.

[Leon]

its really quite simple -- anyone who sincerley wants to become Jewish, can become Jewish.

And the word sincere, does not include conversion for the sake of love and marriage. Such a motive is not sincere. Rather, when a person converts they marry the Torah - there is no third wheel . or better still the Torah is not a third wheel - least of all in a relationship. Quite simply, Judiasm is not a religion where one can simply convert for the sake of pleasing a spouse.

And non-jews who get easily discouraged because of this, should already know that Judiasm is not for them.

Judiasm has embraced many sincere converts and these converts are more zealous in observing the laws of the Torah than your average Jew. I personally came accross many of these converts in Israel and Australia and I was suprised to learn that they make up a rather large percentage in Orthodox communities. Good on them.

[Leon]

I agree that Judaism needs to adopt an aggressive proselytizing stance now.


Sorry medio, but Judiasm is not ment to be like cheap washing dettergent or the 21 volumes of the encylopedia Brittanica -- all of which is aggressviley marketed and sold door to door.

[Mediocrates]

Too bad in 40 years there won't be any of you left to be smug.

[Mediocrates]

Seriously, the challenges you face now are unique. Everyone (who is utterly misinformed) can thump their chest and shout only the Orthodox will survive. But be clear - the outlanding, the falling away from Orthodox, by the very people who are born into it is about 30%+. It's masked by having large families. On the other hand, I'd guess that maybe half of all people who actually chose to become Jewish are turned away. That represents at least one child who will never receive Jewish education -more likely two. And so on. Two, three iterations of that and voila, you don't have any Jews to worry about.

[Leon]

yes, whilst secular Jews are marrying out or having fewer children the orthodox are our only hope. As you acknowledge Judiasm already accepts allot of converts and there are many secular (in Israel especially) who are becoming religious.

whilst seculars are dying out, the orthodox on average are having 7 children per family.

marketing our religion like other faiths is not the solution to the problem. There are halachic standards which were in place for a reason.

[Ophra]

yes, whilst secular Jews are marrying out or having fewer children the orthodox are our only hope. As you acknowledge Judiasm already accepts allot of converts and there are many secular (in Israel especially) who are becoming religious.
Are there ??? Got any details on that Leon ??????

whilst seculars are dying out, the orthodox on average are having 7 children per family.
Seculars are not dying out in Israel .... Israelis tend to marry Israelis Leon...so where are we all going to :confused: ????

Here :

" Within the Jewish population, public opinion polls generally reveal the following self-identifications or affiliations among Israelis: religious (17-20 percent), traditional (32-35 percent) and secular (45-49 percent). "

Source: http://www.bicom.org.uk/about_israel/freedom_of_religion/

[redcake]

I sometimes feel that way about Jews in general.

Oh me too, which is why I have little obligation (or patience) left for insta-Jews. Though I'm sorry Mira, because I know that's not what you meant.


The idea that you can learn to "be a Jew" is a bit high concept for me. As our numbers dwindle, it's a poor substitution to bring in a bunch of ringers as a solution.

My discomfort for converts is formed from the same skepticism I have towards some born-again Christians. They often have to over compensate for whatever lifestyle choices they made which led them towards religion in the first place. As it is, I think it's commonplace to sort of apply a mini judgement process when someone introduces themself as Jewish, right? I mean, we size people up, because the culture is so darn diverse.

[Mediocrates]

Wow I stand corrected. You're mostly bigots.

[Leon]

We have two extremes -- on one side we have Redcake who wouldnt accept any outsider, no matter how sincere they were and unashamdley expresses his bigotry. On the other is medio who is after a quick fix solution.

Of course the only true heretic here is Redcake, because the Torah specifically commands us to welcome in the ger (i.e convert - literally translated as stranger). His justification for not welcoming them is because they are usually more extreme or better still more careful in observing the laws of Torah than your average Jew. What fine logic that is.

For a start the Jewish Royal dynsaty (the Davidic dynsaty) was started by a convert - Ruth. All the Jewish Kings and Queens were descendent from her and the Messiah will also come from that line. Of course if I were to mention the wonderful contribution of converts to Judiasm, I will be here forever.

Medio on the other hand is not quite the heretic and not as bad. His motives are more sincere, but very misguided. What I can suggest for his quick fix solution is -- go away for a couple of years and study all 36 volumes of the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch back to front, learn it all off by heart, become a Rabbinic authority on all aspects of Jewish law and then try to make the neccessary changes. Or better still see if your quick fix solution would still apply - Perhaps you will find out that the laws for conversion were in place for a reason.

[Leon]

Are there ??? Got any details on that Leon ??????

its obvious -- just use common sense. How big is your average non relgiious fmaily?



Seculars are not dying out in Israel .... Israelis tend to marry Israelis Leon...so where are we all going to :confused: ????

I'm not specifically talking about Israel -- i was talking about the world at large. In the US alone over 50% of Jews have married out.

Israel isnt a safe place either -- there are a large number of Israelis (esp women) marrying Arabs and over 200,000 non-Jews from Russia came here.

[Mediocrates]

Since when is a year of study a quick fix?

Ahh forget it, I quit. I give up.

[Mediocrates]

BTW I'm a convert. But you've lost me. sorry.

[Ophra]

its obvious -- just use common sense. How big is your average non relgiious fmaily?

I'm not specifically talking about Israel -- i was talking about the world at large. In the US alone over 50% of Jews have married out.

Israel isnt a safe place either -- there are a large number of Israelis (esp women) marrying Arabs and over 200,000 non-Jews from Russia came here.

Actually I was referring to this .. "" and there are many secular (in Israel especially) who are becoming religious "" ..... I ask again ... got any details on that Leon ????

Israel isnt a safe place either -- there are a large number of Israelis (esp women) marrying Arabs and over 200,000 non-Jews from Russia came here
You cannot be married in Israel if you are not Jewish Leon .
There is not a large number of Israelis (esp women) marrying Arabs ...it is a very very small number.
The Russians tend to stick to themselves . Anyway those who have chosen to stay, and many are leaving, have chosen conversion .

[Mira]

BTW I'm a convert. But you've lost me. sorry.

I am too. :(

[minusthejihad]

The converts' relationship to the Jewish community is really no different than that of converts to Native American traditions who decide that they want to live on the rezervations for the rest of their lives. Even when accepted those people are out of place. And their contribution to the Jewish community is no different than that of those without a drop of Native American blood who decide to live the rest of their lives on the reservations. It is meaningless.

I have a friend. His fiancee and her brother converted to Judaism themselves when they were 16 and 17 years old respectively, for no reason other than their love for Judaism. Had I never known that, I would have always believed they were born Jewish. You think they'd care what you think? They went out of their ways, almost lost their relationships with their families, and felt such a deep belief in something that they'd change their way of life forever. And what did you do?? You were lucky enough to be born to Jewish parents. Congratulations, such conviction!

It seems the quickest way for a Jew to become disenfranchised with Judaism, is to talk to listen to other Jews. I'm quickly beginning to see that the only way to maintain a healthy Jewish identity is to maintain your dialogue with g-d, not with other Jews. I miss the old IF, the one without the zealots that I found three+ years ago. The one without the infighting. Too bad.

Please go on though, don't let me stop you.

[Mira]

I have a friend. His fiancee and her brother converted to Judaism themselves when they were 16 and 17 years old respectively, for no reason other than their love for Judaism. Had I never known that, I would have always believed they were born Jewish. You think they'd care what you think? They went out of their ways, almost lost their relationships with their families, and felt such a deep belief in something that they'd change their way of life forever. And what did you do?? You were lucky enough to be born to Jewish parents. Congratulations, such conviction!

It seems the quickest way for a Jew to become disenfranchised with Judaism, is to talk to listen to other Jews. I'm quickly beginning to see that the only way to maintain a healthy Jewish identity is to maintain your dialogue with g-d, not with other Jews. I miss the old IF, the one without the zealots that I found three+ years ago. The one without the infighting. Too bad.

Please go on though, don't let me stop you.


What are you even doing here right now, minus? Shouldn't you be...well... ah...:o

[Mediocrates]

No one I think questions that. The issue is the somewhat dubious claims of those who seek to impose their particular bent on everyone else. If we would accept more or less a live and let live attitude then we'd be better off. Or absent that then why not let the various groups split off on their own? Most Orthodox except the liberal side of MO do not accept that there is any such thing as Judaism outside of their own version of it. This is their own dogmatic spin on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. However all are content for the most part to accept all those other Jews as fallen away but still Jews - acceptable heretics. The problem is that they all actually break halachic priniciples, they literally all break Jewish law when they insist on creating a new and arbitrary set of criteria for accepting or acknowledging converts. It is forbidden halachically to even refer to a convert as a convert - yet here we have all sorts of institutions and Rabbis on their own, deciding who to accept in and who not, after they have already made the committment, gone through the education and performed the necessary rituals.

Any fool can understand how corrosive that is, how destructive. Imagine if you will for a moment listening to a rabbi tell you your conversion, years ago, perhaps before children, is invalid and therefore your kids aren't Jewish, all the while you know he's not perfectly shomer shabbas but the expectation is that you could be acceptably Jewish if you were perfectly shomer shabbas. Imagine if you will a rabbi telling you that unless you regularly perform mikvah, something by the way has maybe 30% regular usage in the Orthodox community that you're not a proper Jewish woman? You see what I'm getting at? The issue is that they want to establish theoretical standards that aren't applied to everyone else. Can you imagine a shul throwing out lifelong members because they don't go to minyan?

[minusthejihad]

What are you even doing here right now, minus? Shouldn't you be...well... ah...:o

Hey! We're delaying our "real honeymoon" until our first anniversary, but in two weeks we go for a week-long drive through the southeast on our way to Savannah GA for a friend's wedding, then a business trip to San Diego for a couple of weeks and then Cancun with some friends after that. You know me, I can't complain. Mira, I'll send you some pics and vid in a PM soon if you are interested.

[minusthejihad]

No one I think questions that. The issue is the somewhat dubious claims of those who seek to impose their particular bent on everyone else. If we would accept more or less a live and let live attitude then we'd be better off. Or absent that then why not let the various groups split off on their own? Most Orthodox except the liberal side of MO do not accept that there is any such thing as Judaism outside of their own version of it. This is their own dogmatic spin on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. However all are content for the most part to accept all those other Jews as fallen away but still Jews - acceptable heretics. The problem is that they all actually break halachic priniciples, they literally all break Jewish law when they insist on creating a new and arbitrary set of criteria for accepting or acknowledging converts. It is forbidden halachically to even refer to a convert as a convert - yet here we have all sorts of institutions and Rabbis on their own, deciding who to accept in and who not, after they have already made the committment, gone through the education and performed the necessary rituals.

Any fool can understand how corrosive that is, how destructive. Imagine if you will for a moment listening to a rabbi tell you your conversion, years ago, perhaps before children, is invalid and therefore your kids aren't Jewish, all the while you know he's not perfectly shomer shabbas but the expectation is that you could be acceptably Jewish if you were perfectly shomer shabbas. Imagine if you will a rabbi telling you that unless you regularly perform mikvah, something by the way has maybe 30% regular usage in the Orthodox community that you're not a proper Jewish woman? You see what I'm getting at? The issue is that they want to establish theoretical standards that aren't applied to everyone else. Can you imagine a shul throwing out lifelong members because they don't go to minyan?

I hear you loud and clear. When someone tells me what they are, I don't go running around trying to disprove them. The fact that someone, in today's world, goes out of their way to become something at all, for no other purpose than their spirituality, piece of mind, etc. earns my respect.

[Mira]

Mira, I'll send you some pics and vid in a PM soon if you are interested.

Sure. :cool: So how does it feel to be married...I mean, does it feel any different? Just want to know because I occassionaly get a little freaked about the whole idea... Sorry everybody for diverting the thread, but it was a b.s. thread anyway....

[Mira]

I hear you loud and clear. When someone tells me what they are, I don't go running around trying to disprove them. The fact that someone, in today's world, goes out of their way to become something at all, for no other purpose than their spirituality, piece of mind, etc. earns my respect.Exactly. It's no contest. Give me someone who actually works for something and appreciates it over someone who is lazy and takes what they have for granted.

[minusthejihad]

Sure. :cool: So how does it feel to be married...I mean, does it feel any different? Just want to know because I occassionaly get a little freaked about the whole idea... Sorry everybody for diverting the thread, but it was a b.s. thread anyway....

Let's just say, I'm extremely relieved to get the wedding over with and begin our lives together. We had already been living in sin, so it doesn't feel that much different. Really, what I feel now is a lot more responsibility and a lot more motivated.

[Toga]

I have a friend. His fiancee and her brother converted to Judaism themselves when they were 16 and 17 years old respectively, for no reason other than their love for Judaism. Had I never known that, I would have always believed they were born Jewish. You think they'd care what you think? They went out of their ways, almost lost their relationships with their families, and felt such a deep belief in something that they'd change their way of life forever. And what did you do?? You were lucky enough to be born to Jewish parents. Congratulations, such conviction!

It seems the quickest way for a Jew to become disenfranchised with Judaism, is to talk to listen to other Jews. I'm quickly beginning to see that the only way to maintain a healthy Jewish identity is to maintain your dialogue with g-d, not with other Jews. I miss the old IF, the one without the zealots that I found three+ years ago. The one without the infighting. Too bad.

Please go on though, don't let me stop you.

Unless the conversion was done properly it is a fantasy. I too have a delusional friend who thinks he is Jewish. He used to be married to a Jewish woman. The reform, watered-down conversion, is not a recognized conversion. Also, I have noticed that some leftist Jewish "converts" tend to be critical of Israel. They think that if they are "Jews" they have the right to criticize Israel and they shield themselves with the "Jewish" connection. However, if you bust their delusion and bring them back to reality their criticism of Israel fades.

Once, again our Orthodox rabbis are correct. It amazes me how right they are on every Jewish issue.

[Mira]

Once, again our Orthodox rabbis are correct. It amazes me how right they are on every Jewish issue.

So what's stopping you from becoming observant, toga? Seriously, you are such an enthusiast, it's fricken annoying. You are the virtual world's version of the Jewish town cryer.

[minusthejihad]

Unless the conversion was done properly it is a fantasy. I too have a delusional friend who thinks he is Jewish. He used to be married to a Jewish woman. The reform, watered-down conversion, is not a recognized conversion. Also, I have noticed that some leftist Jewish "converts" tend to be critical of Israel. They think that if they are "Jews" they have the right to criticize Israel and they shield themselves with the "Jewish" connection. However, if you bust their delusion and bring them back to reality their criticism of Israel fades.

Once, again our Orthodox rabbis are correct. It amazes me how right they are on every Jewish issue.

Hey Debbie Downer! I was expecting you or King Herod, one or the other. Actually, the people I mentioned above had proper conversions and are just as Jewish as you and I. The only delusionals here are you at the moment.

[Mediocrates]

Once, again our Orthodox rabbis are correct. It amazes me how right they are on every Jewish issue.


So why is it Chabad does not accept any conversions but those performed and administered by Chabad even among any other Orthodox group? Find me a Chabad that will accept any Orthodox Bet Din outside of Chabd.

[Toga]

I hear you loud and clear. When someone tells me what they are, I don't go running around trying to disprove them. The fact that someone, in today's world, goes out of their way to become something at all, for no other purpose than their spirituality, piece of mind, etc. earns my respect.

That is comical. "Something at all" does not make them Jewish. The Jews survived without any real estate experiencing pogroms, annihilation and expulsions. Had they been the watered-down Jews they would turned into something else a long time ago. Had our Orthodox ancestors watered down their faith, traditions and culture we would not have been who we are - Jewish.

Why are the intermarried or some delusional "Jews" fooling themselves? Why don't they want to be Christian or Muslim? It is a lot easier, there are no classes, requirements, etc. and they don't have to perform all the mitzvot.

[minusthejihad]

That is comical. "Something at all" does not make them Jewish. The Jews survived without any real estate experiencing pogroms, annihilation and expulsions. Had they been the watered-down Jews they would turned into something else a long time ago. Had our Orthodox ancestors watered down their faith, traditions and culture we would not have been who we are - Jewish.

Why are the intermarried or some delusional "Jews" fooling themselves? Why don't they want to be Christian or Muslim? It is a lot easier, there are no classes, requirements, etc. and they don't have to perform all the mitzvot.

Whatever you say Debbie! (http://cmunki.net/v-web/gallery/albums/junkdrawer/debbiedowner.jpg)

[Toga]

So what's stopping you from becoming observant, toga? Seriously, you are such an enthusiast, it's fricken annoying. You are the virtual world's version of the Jewish town cryer.


Mira, why do you care if I am observant or not?

[minusthejihad]

Mira, why do you care if I am observant or not?

Because we wonder why YOU care if others are or not. Kettle, Pot. Pot, Debbie (http://cmunki.net/v-web/gallery/albums/junkdrawer/debbiedowner.jpg).

[Toga]

Hey Debbie Downer! I was expecting you or King Herod, one or the other. Actually, the people I mentioned above had proper conversions and are just as Jewish as you and I. The only delusionals here are you at the moment.

I agree. If they were properly converted there is no issue there. Moreover, you are not supposed to remind them of their conversion or even discuss their conversion with anyone else.

You can call me whatever you want but we cannot bring in the needy, emotional derelicts who turn from Christianity to Zen or Hare Krishna and eventually find Judaism hoping that it is a panacea for their emotional problems.

There are some very good Jewish psychologists for that stuff.

[Toga]

Because we wonder why YOU care if others are or not. Kettle, Pot. Pot, Debbie (http://cmunki.net/v-web/gallery/albums/junkdrawer/debbiedowner.jpg).

You from all people should know that a Jew does not have be observant to be as Jewish as the chief Rabbi of Israel or the USA.

It was a very stupid question!

[Mira]

Mira, why do you care if I am observant or not?

Because I would like to see you put your money where your mouth is for a change.

[minusthejihad]

You from all people should know that a Jew does not have be observant to be as Jewish as the chief Rabbi of Israel or the USA.

It was a very stupid question!

Woah is me! That's what I get for tangling with the Toga, King of the Jews (http://digilander.libero.it/artinscena/artinscena/Associazione/TESTI/Image14.jpg)!!

[minusthejihad]

You can call me whatever you want but we cannot bring in the needy, emotional derelicts who turn from Christianity to Zen or Hare Krishna and eventually find Judaism hoping that it is a panacea for their emotional problems.

There are some very good Jewish psychologists for that stuff.

So then what would you say about Bob Dylan's (Robert Zimmermans') several transformations?

Ain't you happy we got him back? Where would Israel be with his album Infidels? :)

[Toga]

So why is it Chabad does not accept any conversions but those performed and administered by Chabad even among any other Orthodox group? Find me a Chabad that will accept any Orthodox Bet Din outside of Chabd.

I don't care and why would I?

The Chabad founders were brilliant and their followers are smart. I trust their judgment. They have a long history, traditions, etc.

They know what they are doing.

[Toga]

So then what would you say about Bob Dylan's (Robert Zimmermans') several transformations?

Oy...too much crack I guess.

His Eastern European ancestors must be tossing in their graves.

However, since he was born a Jew he will die a Jew even if he abdicates all his rights as a Jew and could not be burried among the Jews and would not be a part of the world to come. He probably does not care anyway.

[minusthejihad]

Oy...too much crack I guess.

His Eastern European ancestors must be tossing in their graves.

However, since he was born a Jew he will die a Jew even if he abdicates all his rights as a Jew and could not be burried among the Jews and would not be a part of the world to come. He probably does not care anyway.

FWIK, I believe he is a Jew again.

[KettleWhistle]

You were lucky enough to be born to Jewish parents.

What nonsense. Or maybe you do believe that people are lucky to be born into whatever ethnicity they are born to. So are Italians lucky to be born... well, Italians? Are Russians lucky to be born Russians?

I don't consider it either a luck or anything special. That's just who I am. Obviously not something I can undo. But I do have pride in being who I am, and I don't see why others shouldn't embrace who they are, and instead choose to embrace some strange and foreign culture. If anything, such desire for conversion is a show of deep insecurity in one's own history. That said, I'm not standing in the way of anyone trying to reinvent themselves. But I certainly would not encourage something like that either.

[Toga]

In addition, who cares about some nutcase who happens to be talented but still a nutcase?

Are you going to construct your life based on the experiences of some looney?

There are millions of Jews who can be a much better role model than some Jewish weirdo. We have them too.

[minusthejihad]

What nonsense. Or maybe you do believe that people are lucky to be born into whatever ethnicity they are born to. So are Italians lucky to be born... well, Italians? Are Russians lucky to be born Russians?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you got to choose! In terms of luck, it's all perception anyway. I'm sure there is an Albanian out there that feels lucky.

I don't consider it either a luck or anything special. That's just who I am. Obviously not something I can undo. But I do have pride in being who I am, and I don't see why others shouldn't embrace who they are, and instead choose to embrace some strange and foreign culture. If anything, such desire for conversion is a show of deep insecurity in one's own history. That said, I'm not standing in the way of anyone trying to reinvent themselves. But I certainly would not encourage something like that either.

The two things I like about you are that you are consistently inconsistent and an equal opportunity offender.

[Toga]

FWIK, I believe he is a Jew again.

LOL....

He has never stopped being Jewish. See what the crack does to the brain?

[minusthejihad]

Are you going to construct your life based on the experiences of some looney?

Of course not. That's why I don't take you seriously. :)

[minusthejihad]

LOL....

He has never stopped being Jewish. See what the crack does to the brain?

No actually he went through a little Born Again phase from what I remember, but he came back. They always come back!

[Mira]

The reason Jews don't proselytize is because it is not enough to simply profess faith in Judaism. Jews are not a race and Judaism isn't an abstract concept. To put it in a modern sense, the nation was founded by accepting the torah as our constitution, with the idea that if we lived as represenatives of this radical doctrine, then the other peoples of the world would see how fulfilling it is to be a Jew, and then they would join us. For this reason, it is extremely difficult to be a Jew in isolation from other Jews. The immigrant to the US, from wherever they came must learn the laws of the US and agree to live by the laws and principles that the nation was founded upon. They come to the US because of a type of faith that the US system will offer them a better life, and in exchange, they assume the obligations of being a citizen. The US would be nothing if it were not for our immigrants, who often make better and more knowledgeable citizens than peope born with the privilege. Just before they receive citizenship, they pledge allegiance to the nation, not unlike Ruth's pledge..."Wherever you go, I will go. Wherever you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried."

If we were better represenatives, then we would have more Jews than we do. If the US isn't careful, if AMericans aren't vigilant about guarding the principles and freedoms that we cherish, we will lose our potential "converts" to the other nations too. The further away modern Jews stray from the foundation of torah, the more we become something else. If Americans started to radically alter the US constitution and all of the principles that it was founded upon, then eventually, we would find ourselves living with a different type of system.

"Dearer to God than all of the Israelites who stood at Mount Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and quaking mountain, and had they not heard the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than such a person?"

Tanhuma (ed. Buber),
Lekh Lekha 6:32

[Toga]

Of course not. That's why I don't take you seriously. :)


Yeah! Of course not!

Apparently, you prefer to be delusional.

[Toga]

The reason Jews don't proselytize is because it is not enough to simply profess faith in Judaism. Jews are not a race and Judaism isn't an abstract concept. To put it in a modern sense, the nation was founded by accepting the torah as our constitution, with the idea that if we lived as represenatives of this radical doctrine, then the other peoples of the world would see how fulfilling it is to be a Jew, and then they would join us. For this reason, it is extremely difficult to be a Jew in isolation from other Jews. The immigrant to the US, from wherever they came must learn the laws of the US and agree to live by the laws and principles that the nation was founded upon. They come to the US because of a type of faith that the US system will offer them a better life, and in exchange, they assume the obligations of being a citizen. The US would be nothing if it were not for our immigrants, who often make better and more knowledgeable citizens than peope born with the privilege. Just before they receive citizenship, they pledge allegiance to the nation, not unlike Ruth's pledge..."Wherever you go, I will go. Wherever you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried."

If we were better represenatives, then we would have more Jews than we do. If the US isn't careful, if AMericans aren't vigilant about guarding the principles and freedoms that we cherish, we will lose our potential "converts" to the other nations too. The further away modern Jews stray from the foundation of torah, the more we become something else. If Americans started to radically alter the US constitution and all of the principles that it was founded upon, then eventually, we would find ourselves living with a different type of system.

"Dearer to God than all of the Israelites who stood at Mount Sinai is the convert. Had the Israelites not witnessed the lightning, thunder, and quaking mountain, and had they not heard the sounds of the shofar, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the convert, who did not see or hear any of these things, surrendered to God and accepted the yoke of heaven. Can anyone be dearer to God than such a person?"

Tanhuma (ed. Buber),
Lekh Lekha 6:32


There was a group that came to the USA unwillingly or was forced to come here and it is struggling with its abusive past. See, that is more reason not to recruit but I agree, we should gladly accept those who want to convert to Judaism provided they are properly converted, via the ORTHODOX CONVERSION.

[minusthejihad]

Yeah! Of course not!

Apparently, you prefer to be delusional.

Whatever you say King Debbie!

[Toga]

LOL...some people use Xanax as an escape. I hear that helps them. Others are born into the culture based on a make-belief reality.

Remember the ex-Iraqi information minister. He was a kick! I wish they brought him to Hollywood.

[Mediocrates]

I don't care and why would I?

The Chabad founders were brilliant and their followers are smart. I trust their judgment. They have a long history, traditions, etc.

They know what they are doing.


Yes but that's not important here. The key question is why does Orthodox argue even among itself on this point? I'll tell you why - because no one wants a standard. There is no material difference between what a Chabad would expect of a convert compared to someone from O.U. None. But for some reason - they are not mutally acceptable. The O.U. looks at Chabad a little funny and the Chabad wince and shrug when you tell them about O.U. I've had conversations with both and they've both copped to maintaining lists of rabbis who are Orthodox 'but not Orthodox' from each other's groups.

Odd wouldn't you say?

[Womble]

Wow I stand corrected. You're mostly bigots.
Why do you always let the biggest weirdos get to you?

Grow a thicker skin already. Toga and Kettle are about as big an authority on Judaism as you are yourself.

[Mira]

Why do you always let the biggest weirdos get to you?

Grow a thicker skin already. Toga and Kettle are about as big an authority on Judaism as you are yourself.

Now you done it. Challenge~!

[Toga]

Yes but that's not important here. The key question is why does Orthodox argue even among itself on this point? I'll tell you why - because no one wants a standard. There is no material difference between what a Chabad would expect of a convert compared to someone from O.U. None. But for some reason - they are not mutally acceptable. The O.U. looks at Chabad a little funny and the Chabad wince and shrug when you tell them about O.U. I've had conversations with both and they've both copped to maintaining lists of rabbis who are Orthodox 'but not Orthodox' from each other's groups.

Odd wouldn't you say?

It is but that is the Jewish nature. Uniformity is not a Jewish trait even though the outside world and especially the anti-Semitic world perceive us a monolithic group.

[Toga]

Why do you always let the biggest weirdos get to you?

Grow a thicker skin already. Toga and Kettle are about as big an authority on Judaism as you are yourself.

I have never claimed to be an authority on Judaism.

[Mediocrates]

Why do you always let the biggest weirdos get to you?

Grow a thicker skin already. Toga and Kettle are about as big an authority on Judaism as you are yourself.

What do you bring to the table?

[Mira]

Yes but that's not important here. The key question is why does Orthodox argue even among itself on this point? I'll tell you why - because no one wants a standard. There is no material difference between what a Chabad would expect of a convert compared to someone from O.U. None. But for some reason - they are not mutally acceptable. The O.U. looks at Chabad a little funny and the Chabad wince and shrug when you tell them about O.U. I've had conversations with both and they've both copped to maintaining lists of rabbis who are Orthodox 'but not Orthodox' from each other's groups.

Odd wouldn't you say?

A very basic answer I suppose is that maybe it's because the Community (big C) has less power than the little communities. There are so many expressions of Judaism today, it's a matter of finding the community where you fit in and then meeting their standards for community life. Of course if a Jew who converted via the Reform or Renewal movement wants to go join the Reform or Renewal communities (small c) in Israel, they have to go through another conversion that meets the Orthodox requirements in Israel because as a practical matter, they are the ones who make the decisions in Israel for the big question of who is a Jew, though that is changing. There is no universal standard outside of Israel because those who would impose a universal standard do not have the power to do so.

[Toga]

. Of course if a Jew who converted via the Reform or Renewal movement wants to go join the Reform or Renewal communities (small c) in Israel, they have to go through another conversion that meets the Orthodox requirements in Israel because as a practical matter, they are the ones who make the decisions in Israel for the big question of who is a Jew, though that is changing. There is no universal standard outside of Israel because those who would impose a universal standard do not have the power to do so.

If Jews want to fade away they would accept the Christian-type standards. There is no room for the watered-down Jews among the Jews. The conversion must be Orthodox. It is not a choice.

[Mira]

If Jews want to fade away they would accept the Christian-type standards. There is no room for the watered-down Jews among the Jews. The conversion must be Orthodox. It is not a choice.

So why not apply your own standards to yourself?

[Mira]

Are separate schools the answer?

By Shahar Ilan

A newly religious journalist stirred up a fierce storm among the ultra-Orthodox public when she asked what was the point of attracting more people to Torah observance if their children would not be accepted to Haredi schools anyway.

In recent years, a new type of discrimination has emerged in Ashkenazi ultra-Orthodox educational institutions. In addition to their discrimination against girls from Sephardi backgrounds, children whose parents found religion in adulthood are also being sidelined. For the past month, the Haredi weekly, Mishpacha, has devoted several pages each week to a public discussion of this sensitive issue.

Avigail Meizlik - the paper's cuisine columnist who lives in Ramat Beit Shemesh and became religious as an adult herself - kicked off the discussion. She related that the class in which her daughter studied, and which was composed mainly of children from homes like hers, had been closed and that now no other school wanted to accept her daughter.


"There are so many organizations and people devoting their lives to attracting people to a religious lifestyle," wrote Meizlik, "Why bother? Why convince them to make such a difficult, painful change? Why call upon them to come and live a Torah lifestyle if no one has any intention of giving them the opportunity to live such a lifestyle? Perhaps the time has come to stop investing in outreach and to redirect the immense energies of these organizations to the existing newly religious families."

Unlike the Sephardi girls, who encounter difficulties mainly in the high schools and post-secondary institutes, the newly religious run into discrimination already in pre-school and elementary school. Meizlik said that at one school, where the language of instruction is Yiddish, the teachers "set up a parents' committee whose sole purpose is to make sure, Heaven forbid, that no girls from newly religious families attend school with their purebred daughters.

"There are families here who have been religious for 10-15 years already," Meizlik continued. "The husband wears a long black coat and a shtreimel, the children are sweet and have long side curls, are raised to be modest and God-fearing, in homes without newspapers or a computer; good, pure Haredi children - until they reach school age."

Regardless or not of the hullabaloo, the school at which Meizlik's daughter learned decided to reopen her class, but the public debate had already been launched.

The new religious class

The first to pick up the gauntlet was Mishpacha's European correspondent, David Damen, who reported that every year at about this time, as if it were a fixed ritual, heart-rending letters begin pouring into the editor's mailbox, bemoaning tragedies too difficult to bear, that their children are not reaching their potential simply because they do not meet the new criteria that have become entrenched among part of the ultra-Orthodox public - classes of religiosity.

"The newly religious," wrote Damen, "have left everything behind them and made a tremendous personal sacrifice, only to discover that they will remain ostracized, part of a `quota,' along with the Sephardim."

Damen made an impassioned plea to "all those newly observant who are still just finding their way: When you make the transition, which is so difficult, go one small, but decisive, step further - come to us, to the Hasidic circles."

Damen explains that although it is very difficult to gain acceptance into a Hasidic group, once a family has been accepted, the children will always have a place to learn, "without any `quotas' or `selections,' and without religious class distortions." The reason for the equality is that everyone is humbled by the rebbe - the leader of each Hasidic sect.

Is the situation really so much better among the Hasidim?

Rabbi Shmuel Wind of the Tsohar outreach organization told Mishpacha that the newly religious will not find it easy to fit into a Hasidic framework that is not Chabad or Bratslav.

"The offer to `join Chabad' is not a realistic option for me," said Meizlik. "We want to worship God in a way that suits us and to choose how to worship God according to what is taught to the children in school."

Not leaving the city

One of the fascinating aspects of this debate is the central position held by women - perhaps because the issues are education and family, and perhaps because the ultra-Orthodox public is changing. The following week's article was written by Yael Berg, who came out in defense of the discrimination. The newly observant, explained Berg, tend to meet with their non-religious relatives and the children are exposed to their relatives' culture, "their speech patterns, music, body language and concepts," she wrote.

Yael feels that this encounter with secular culture sometimes causes the children to backslide, and they are liable to negatively affect youths who have been ultra-Orthodox from birth.

"I feel that the pain of the girl who has not been accepted is preferable to the anguish of families whose daughters are affected by a girl who was erroneously accepted," wrote Berg.

Zippora Beit Levi, a teacher at the Beit Yaakov school system, wrote to Mishpacha that she feels the ultra-Orthodox community is having enough trouble with its own rebellious youth "without importing `trouble' from outside."

Two weeks ago, Moshe Grylak, Mishpacha's editor, author of "The Ultra-Orthodox - Who Are We Really?" and one of the first to practice outreach, joined the discussion. Grylak contends that most of the ultra-Orthodox public is afraid of the newly religious, afraid they will cause breaches in the walls of their isolation.

He also agrees that "the rejection unfortunately also stems from elitist arrogance - an evil sickness the causes apathy and hardheartedness toward the suffering of those we reject."

That week, Mishpacha printed the reactions of readers, plus responses by a few of the leaders of outreach programs. Rabbi Wind said he preferred that the newly religious continue to live in a secular environment.

"Anyone who tells a secular person who starts becoming religious, `Leave Rishon Letzion/Holon/Ashkelon and move to Ramat Beit Shemesh/Modi'in Ilit/Beitar,' is making a mistake," said Wind.

One reason is that a newly religious person might feel like a second-class citizen in a ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. Another reason is that the children can study in ultra-Orthodox schools in a secular neighborhood, schools that are geared to newly religious, without any acceptance problems. A third reason is that the newly religious create an ultra-Orthodox community in their locale and influence others to become religious, too.

To illustrate this point, Wind wrote about the secular Carmit neighborhood of Rishon Letzion, from which two busloads of children leave each morning to the religious schools in the city.

The separate school solution

One prominent theme among the readers' letters was the hurling of criticism by school representatives and ultra-Orthodox parents against one another - an indication that both sides realize there is a serious problem that must be solved.

"We are not a party to this offensive [phenomenon]," wrote one ultra-Orthodox woman. "Principals, stop distancing the children of the newly religious from us."

One rabbi claimed that the principals were the main guilty party, but that the parents were guilty too, by their silent cooperation with the principals' decisions. A member of the acceptance committee at a prestigious ultra-Orthodox elementary school wrote that he had received threats from parents that they would withdraw their children from the school if children from newly religious families were accepted.

The only practical solution that enjoyed any consensus was the founding of separate schools for the newly religious, even in ultra-Orthodox cities. Ahuva Etzioni, of Beit Shemesh, explained that the radical ultra-Orthodox institutions, which do not offer secular subjects, are not suitable for most newly religious families.

"I would have been happier when I was little if I had gone to a school full of only newly religious girls like myself," wrote a girl from a veteran newly religious family. "That way, all the children would feel they belonged."

A veteran newly religious from overseas wrote that the newly religious are to blame because they do not unite.

Meizlik agreed that schools for the newly religious could be a solution, but criticized the ultra-Orthodox who offer such a solution from "on top of their high horses."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/632262.html

[Toga]

So why not apply your own standards to yourself?

It will probably come to you as a big surprise but a Jew does not have to be observant to be Jewish.

The fact of the matter is that if the conversion had been performed by a Chabad rabbi or the O.U. it is still a recognized conversion. So, let us not create unnecessary problems. We have enough problems without creating the new ones.

What we have to watch out for is the enemy enemy within. Hamas cannot destroy us but the Jews who want to make us Christian-like can. The Reform Jewry can not sustain us in the long run. The statistical data in regard to the intermarriage rate proves it. Do the Reform Jews believe in the divinity of the Torah? What is the difference between the Christians and the Reform Jews? Jesus? What else?

What else?

[Toga]

Are separate schools the answer?

By Shahar Ilan

A newly religious journalist stirred up a fierce storm among the ultra-Orthodox public when she asked what was the point of attracting more people to Torah observance if their children would not be accepted to Haredi schools anyway.

In recent years, a new type of discrimination has emerged in Ashkenazi ultra-Orthodox educational institutions. In addition to their discrimination against girls from Sephardi backgrounds, children whose parents found religion in adulthood are also being sidelined. For the past month, the Haredi weekly, Mishpacha, has devoted several pages each week to a public discussion of this sensitive issue.

Avigail Meizlik - the paper's cuisine columnist who lives in Ramat Beit Shemesh and became religious as an adult herself - kicked off the discussion. She related that the class in which her daughter studied, and which was composed mainly of children from homes like hers, had been closed and that now no other school wanted to accept her daughter.


"There are so many organizations and people devoting their lives to attracting people to a religious lifestyle," wrote Meizlik, "Why bother? Why convince them to make such a difficult, painful change? Why call upon them to come and live a Torah lifestyle if no one has any intention of giving them the opportunity to live such a lifestyle? Perhaps the time has come to stop investing in outreach and to redirect the immense energies of these organizations to the existing newly religious families."

Unlike the Sephardi girls, who encounter difficulties mainly in the high schools and post-secondary institutes, the newly religious run into discrimination already in pre-school and elementary school. Meizlik said that at one school, where the language of instruction is Yiddish, the teachers "set up a parents' committee whose sole purpose is to make sure, Heaven forbid, that no girls from newly religious families attend school with their purebred daughters.

"There are families here who have been religious for 10-15 years already," Meizlik continued. "The husband wears a long black coat and a shtreimel, the children are sweet and have long side curls, are raised to be modest and God-fearing, in homes without newspapers or a computer; good, pure Haredi children - until they reach school age."

Regardless or not of the hullabaloo, the school at which Meizlik's daughter learned decided to reopen her class, but the public debate had already been launched.

The new religious class

The first to pick up the gauntlet was Mishpacha's European correspondent, David Damen, who reported that every year at about this time, as if it were a fixed ritual, heart-rending letters begin pouring into the editor's mailbox, bemoaning tragedies too difficult to bear, that their children are not reaching their potential simply because they do not meet the new criteria that have become entrenched among part of the ultra-Orthodox public - classes of religiosity.

"The newly religious," wrote Damen, "have left everything behind them and made a tremendous personal sacrifice, only to discover that they will remain ostracized, part of a `quota,' along with the Sephardim."

Damen made an impassioned plea to "all those newly observant who are still just finding their way: When you make the transition, which is so difficult, go one small, but decisive, step further - come to us, to the Hasidic circles."

Damen explains that although it is very difficult to gain acceptance into a Hasidic group, once a family has been accepted, the children will always have a place to learn, "without any `quotas' or `selections,' and without religious class distortions." The reason for the equality is that everyone is humbled by the rebbe - the leader of each Hasidic sect.

Is the situation really so much better among the Hasidim?

Rabbi Shmuel Wind of the Tsohar outreach organization told Mishpacha that the newly religious will not find it easy to fit into a Hasidic framework that is not Chabad or Bratslav.

"The offer to `join Chabad' is not a realistic option for me," said Meizlik. "We want to worship God in a way that suits us and to choose how to worship God according to what is taught to the children in school."

Not leaving the city

One of the fascinating aspects of this debate is the central position held by women - perhaps because the issues are education and family, and perhaps because the ultra-Orthodox public is changing. The following week's article was written by Yael Berg, who came out in defense of the discrimination. The newly observant, explained Berg, tend to meet with their non-religious relatives and the children are exposed to their relatives' culture, "their speech patterns, music, body language and concepts," she wrote.

Yael feels that this encounter with secular culture sometimes causes the children to backslide, and they are liable to negatively affect youths who have been ultra-Orthodox from birth.

"I feel that the pain of the girl who has not been accepted is preferable to the anguish of families whose daughters are affected by a girl who was erroneously accepted," wrote Berg.

Zippora Beit Levi, a teacher at the Beit Yaakov school system, wrote to Mishpacha that she feels the ultra-Orthodox community is having enough trouble with its own rebellious youth "without importing `trouble' from outside."

Two weeks ago, Moshe Grylak, Mishpacha's editor, author of "The Ultra-Orthodox - Who Are We Really?" and one of the first to practice outreach, joined the discussion. Grylak contends that most of the ultra-Orthodox public is afraid of the newly religious, afraid they will cause breaches in the walls of their isolation.

He also agrees that "the rejection unfortunately also stems from elitist arrogance - an evil sickness the causes apathy and hardheartedness toward the suffering of those we reject."

That week, Mishpacha printed the reactions of readers, plus responses by a few of the leaders of outreach programs. Rabbi Wind said he preferred that the newly religious continue to live in a secular environment.

"Anyone who tells a secular person who starts becoming religious, `Leave Rishon Letzion/Holon/Ashkelon and move to Ramat Beit Shemesh/Modi'in Ilit/Beitar,' is making a mistake," said Wind.

One reason is that a newly religious person might feel like a second-class citizen in a ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. Another reason is that the children can study in ultra-Orthodox schools in a secular neighborhood, schools that are geared to newly religious, without any acceptance problems. A third reason is that the newly religious create an ultra-Orthodox community in their locale and influence others to become religious, too.

To illustrate this point, Wind wrote about the secular Carmit neighborhood of Rishon Letzion, from which two busloads of children leave each morning to the religious schools in the city.

The separate school solution

One prominent theme among the readers' letters was the hurling of criticism by school representatives and ultra-Orthodox parents against one another - an indication that both sides realize there is a serious problem that must be solved.

"We are not a party to this offensive [phenomenon]," wrote one ultra-Orthodox woman. "Principals, stop distancing the children of the newly religious from us."

One rabbi claimed that the principals were the main guilty party, but that the parents were guilty too, by their silent cooperation with the principals' decisions. A member of the acceptance committee at a prestigious ultra-Orthodox elementary school wrote that he had received threats from parents that they would withdraw their children from the school if children from newly religious families were accepted.

The only practical solution that enjoyed any consensus was the founding of separate schools for the newly religious, even in ultra-Orthodox cities. Ahuva Etzioni, of Beit Shemesh, explained that the radical ultra-Orthodox institutions, which do not offer secular subjects, are not suitable for most newly religious families.

"I would have been happier when I was little if I had gone to a school full of only newly religious girls like myself," wrote a girl from a veteran newly religious family. "That way, all the children would feel they belonged."

A veteran newly religious from overseas wrote that the newly religious are to blame because they do not unite.

Meizlik agreed that schools for the newly religious could be a solution, but criticized the ultra-Orthodox who offer such a solution from "on top of their high horses."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/632262.html

If you quote the Haaretz you might as well quote the Al Ahram. In fact, the Arab Al Ahram is more Jewish and pro-Israel than the ultra-leftist, Meretz-type, waco publication Haaretz.

[redcake]

Look, I don't care who wants to call themself a Jew. It's great there is a formal process to do it but the truth is, if you introduce yourself to me as a Jew, I don't question it. You wanna be a Jew, you're a Jew. I have no problem praying next to you, and I have no problem recognizing that you're practicing Judaism.

On a larger picture, I also believe that since we all come from 12 tribes, that you can make a strong argument that your families were Jews at one time anyway. There are geanology computers in Jerusalem which will tell most anyone they're a Jew...and congrats, you're a Jew then.

I've been honest here in saying that to me, I have a preference towards people who were born into a Jewish household. The only bigotry I've experienced from other Jews was from Jewish converts in California, who imposed themselves on me and my family. Who expressed bigotry because I'm a mixture of Sephardic and Ashkenazic, and my traditions are not linked to a text book. I'm also honest it saying that by learning the traditions as stated from the book, rather then as they have been handed down it sometimes creates a divide in practice. I've had conversations with recent converts, or people in the process of conversion, where they're talking about things so obscure I felt like i was conversing with a distinct sub-denomination which was created from a test tube. It's not to say they're wrong, and I'm right... it's to say, you're becoming Jews, and that's not what any Jews I've heard of actually do. It's to say, I believe there is such a thing as Jewish history which has created a Jewish persona, which you can't just mimic.

Now, there are Jews of varied sizes, colors, and smells...and it really doesn't matter to me which of these you are. Ideally, I'd like to not even care.

[Mediocrates]

It will probably come to you as a big surprise but a Jew does not have to be observant to be Jewish.

The fact of the matter is that if the conversion had been performed by a Chabad rabbi or the O.U. it is still a recognized conversion. So, let us not create unnecessary problems. We have enough problems without creating the new ones.

No this is not correct. As far as Chabad is concerned the conversion is trivial, being Frum is 98% of it. Consider selling your home and moving to w/in walking distance of the shul. If not, then don't bother to proceed any further. Unless and until you commit to being Frum the entire entire conversion is moot. Moreover the ceremony must be performed by Chabad by their own rabbi. None other will be found acceptable.

[Toga]

No this is not correct. As far as Chabad is concerned the conversion is trivial, being Frum is 98% of it. Consider selling your home and moving to w/in walking distance of the shul. If not, then don't bother to proceed any further. Unless and until you commit to being Frum the entire entire conversion is moot. Moreover the ceremony must be performed by Chabad by their own rabbi. None other will be found acceptable.

So, they have their own rules. So? What is the common denominator?

Would an O.U. convert be able to exercise the Israeli Law of Return? Would a Chabad convert be able to do the same? Whould they be burried among the Jews? Do they have the Jewish rights, etc?

[Mediocrates]

Ok you'll be dense and stand on ceremony. I get it.

[Toga]

ok...

one more time.

What is the common denominator?

....and if some Chabad meshigas is a little different what is a big deal? Without the meshigas we would not have been who we are - Jews.

..and by the way, considering what the enemies, anti-Semites (anti-Zionists), etc. have put us through we are entitled to a little meshigas.

[Mira]

It will probably come to you as a big surprise but a Jew does not have to be observant to be Jewish