Your views on Ethnic Russians

[Evgeni]

Hello, i am a ethnic Russian living in USA. i am for israel, but my problem with you guys is that Jewish Oligarchs have ruined Russia. they need to be brought down. also the fact that when american media reports "russian" mafia. when in facts most of Russian speaking mafio's in america are Jews, Balts, and Ukrainians. but i would like to know how you feel about Russians.

[alexbmn]

ok I feel like I'm qualified to answer since I'm a Jew from the former USSR.My feelings towards Russians ,range from ambivalent to a bit negative due to that long,long history of antisemitism and the resulting descrimination, that all Jews had to suffer first in Russia then in the USSR.And my family experienced it like all others.However my sister's best friend was an ethnic russian so it wasnt all bad.

[alexbmn]

also see here's the problem.Its quite possible that both Berezovsky and Gusinsky(the oligarchs) had some damaging effect on Russia,I really dont know,but you say that its "you guys".I honestly didnt do anything.Se thats how hatred starts blaming the faults of the few on the whole people.

[takeo]

I agree with alexbmn that you can't blame the entire Jewish people for the crimes of a few Jewish oligarchs (but on the other hand it's equally wrong to catagorise any criticism on those oligarchs as "anti-semitism", they are criminals, no matter if they are Jewish or not).
You can't either blame the entire Russian people for the cases of anti-semitism, i know many Russians and none of them are anti-semitic. (as you can't blame the entire palestinian people for the acts of hamas)

[Evgeni]

I understand. I am not blaming the entire Jewish people; in fact I also have Jewish friends that came over to USA just like my family. I was just pointing out my problem with some Jews. I am sorry if I came of as generalizing.
I agree there was persecution of Jews in Russian empire. There is nothing I can do to excuse this. But in soviet era I see why people were less then kind to Jews. Many people were blaming communism on the Jews. And many Bolsheviks were Jews. Take for example Kaganovich. His policy on Ukraine starved millions of people (including Jews, and Russians).
Another thing is that Russian culture revolves around the eastern orthodox faith. And thus Russians had trouble-accepting people who didn’t except Christ.

[Mediocrates]

You would seem to be justifying this,
Union for councils of Jews in the FSU

http://www.fsumonitor.com/indices/Russia.shtml

At any rate what is/was the ratio of Jews to the rest of the Russian population?

According to this

http://www.wjc.org.il/wjcbook/chartmap.htm

In rough numbers about 1.1 million Jews across the whole of the FSU. About 600-700k left the FSU since 1990. In 1990 the total population of the FSU was 290,000,000 so do the math. Add the 700k back in for a total of 1.8 million. Do the math, the ratio of Jewish popultion in the FSU was 0.0062 or roughly 3/5ths of 1% of the total population.

"Yet 'it's easy to see why the Soviets were antisemitic".

GONG !

You win the dumbass racist comment of the day award.

[Evgeni]

great there could be 1000 jews left in russia it would not change the fact that they had a huge role in Communism.

[takeo]

actually under Stalin few Jews had any important position in the regime, and many Russians (not Jews) supported communism, even today (biggest party in parliament).
about the oligarchs, do you think they would be as wealthy as today without the support and policy of Yeltsin, an etnic Russian?
How many Russians today are orthodox and believe in God? It may have been a reason for anti-semitism in the past, but since many decades no longer.

[alexbmn]

yes its true that a very large number of Bolshevics were Jewish but that was a responce to living in Tzarist Russia the most antisemitic country in Europe. And also many of those Jews did away with their Jewish identinty all together.As one historian described them ,they were "Non Jewish Jews.

[Evgeni]

yeltsin was a puppet . who was supported by the oligarchs and the west. in the revolution communists killed priests and demolished the Orthodox church in russia. when Lenin was asked about russia he him self said "who cares about russia, world communist revolution is more importent". millions of people were killed by them. anti-semitism was a crime in early communist day punishable by the gulags. restrictions on jews were only made under stalin. and orthodox church is reviving in russia. political climate has bin favorible for this. The Christ the savoir cathedral was rebuilt and Putin is often seen wereing a cross. but this doesnt mean that anti-semitism is also rising, when in fact many closet jews are now coming out.

P.S. the biggest anti-semite in russian duma is half jew him self.

[alexbmn]

millions of people were killed by Stalin who came to power very very early.And although in the early days of the Bolshevic takover Lenin made antisemitism a crime he then in a rather overt manner called for the elimination of the middlemen and merchants who he tiled "bagmen" and everyone understood quite well to who these terms pertained. The Jews

[elke]

Originally posted by alexbmn
ok I feel like I'm qualified to answer since I'm a Jew from the former USSR.My feelings towards Russians ,range from ambivalent to a bit negative due to that long,long history of antisemitism and the resulting descrimination, that all Jews had to suffer first in Russia then in the USSR.And my family experienced it like all others.However my sister's best friend was an ethnic russian so it wasnt all bad.

Ditto for me :D

[takeo]

"Non Jewish Jews"

:D LOL

Jews supported communism because it was in their interest, as many soviet-Russians of all nationalities. They could not be responsible for the exagerations after Stalin took over.
Lenin did care for Russia and he protected the Russian language and culture, but he hated Russian nationalism and chauvinism, which was (and still is) the cause of anti-semitism. you are right that the orthodox church was oppressed.

"And although in the early days of the Bolshevic takover Lenin made antisemitism a crime he then in a rather overt manner called for the elimination of the middlemen and merchants who he tiled "bagmen" and everyone understood quite well to who these terms pertained. The Jews"

not only Jews were middlemen and merchants. And during lenin's NEP this people had a relatively important role. Elimination BEFORE Stalin meant not physical elimination (with some exceptions, as the tsar and noblesse) but elimination of the socio-economic structures.

[elke]

Hey, Takeo, yet again I find that I basically agree with you on this one! The End of Time must be near! :D

[takeo]

I should pay you a visit pretty soon it seems! ;) I'm saving

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Evgeni
Hello, i am a ethnic Russian living in USA. i am for israel, but my problem with you guys is that Jewish Oligarchs have ruined Russia. they need to be brought down. also the fact that when american media reports "russian" mafia. when in facts most of Russian speaking mafio's in america are Jews, Balts, and Ukrainians. but i would like to know how you feel about Russians.

This quote reminds me of the quote that goes something like this:
"What one Jew does, is the fault of the Jewish People. What one Christian does, is his own fault."

I believe it was Anne Frank that said that.

[ruby]

EVGENI SEEMS NOT TO HEAR THE IMPLIED PREJUDICE IN HIS STATEMENTS.

LIKE A LOT OF RUSSIANS, I FIND.
I LIKE RUSSIANS, THEY ARE WARM & OPEN, GENEROUS PEOPLE.

BUT A LOT ARE SO THOROUGHLY PREJUDICED AGAINST JEWS IT IS NOT FUNNY! AND DON'T EVENBRING UP ASIATIC OR AFRICAN OIGINED PEOPLES...VERY, VERY RACIST & THEY SEEM TO HAVE NO SHAME WHATSOEVER ABOUT IT. IT;S SAD, REALLY.

[elke]

Interesting analysis of antisemitism in Russia, and its roots, from the "inside" so to speak (written by a Russian Orthodox philosopher, I guess)

Warning: as anything Russian, it's LOOONG. :D Also, complete nonsense in parts.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

[Mr. Pumps]

Please tell me what a "Ethnic" Russian is when most Russians come from a mixed bloodline. Turkish,German, Chinese....you name it.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
Please tell me what a "Ethnic" Russian is when most Russians come from a mixed bloodline. Turkish,German, Chinese....you name it.

You forgot Mongolian! :)

[Evgeni]

that is worse then any insult you could have thought of. We are SLAVIC!!!

[elke]

Originally posted by Evgeni
that is worse then any insult you could have thought of. We are SLAVIC!!!

Why is it such an insult to say that in addition to Slavic, there are other strains that have been admixed with who you are? Everyone is mixed, there is no such thing as "pure" anything, genetically speaking.

[wallace2132]

Ethnic russians have always been anti-semitic. The only think they know how to do is to drink and eat salo. And another think you know why russia is in a state that it's in, it's because all the bright minds(jewish) were forced to immigrate so what's left is the hard core dumb drinking idiots.

http://www.geocities.com/munichseptember1972/default.html

[minusthejihad]

Ha ha, that's the funiest thing I ever heard, and some might admit that it is true. I'm just wondering why Evgeni got mad that he might of had other races mixed in his family. I am a 1/4 Polish (non-Jew), but I will always be a Jew, but when someone asks me what I am, I tell them an Ameican, when they say, "yeah, but what are you", I say "a Russian Jew or a Jew From Russia. Not just a Russian, because Russians never liked my peoples." So Evgeni, you may be mixed, but you are still a Russian, right? No need to be upset that you are part something. All peoples are people, we all need to see that eventually. Maybe it gets worse before it gets better.

[ruby]

Originally posted by Evgeni
that is worse then any insult you could have thought of. We are SLAVIC!!!


my point proven.
(sorry for the shouting before...my mistake; i am a quick poster)

hey, Big E: why so bent out of shape about it?
btw Tartars were not Turks, am i right about that? the slavs just thought they were.
but you guys are totally & thoroughly mixed with asians, dude.
where do you think those cheekbones that Sergei Federov has came from?
the slavs?
no, no. no. no.

[cerulean]

Warning: as anything Russian, it's LOOONG. Also, complete nonsense in parts.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html

This was interesting. What I get from the article is that at first the author seems to be saying there is no way to get around the fact that the Russian Orthodox theology is anti-Semitic and unlike Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, there is no way to make a change in the underlying theology. But he finds a creative way to get around this problem of anti-Semitism anyway, working within the bounds of the theology he accepts. Unfortunately, he ends up with the ultimate idea that Jews, who remain in Russia and want to be accepted in society, should join the Orthodox Church.

One good point he makes is that the Russian Orthodox Church should never again permit itself to be allied to a struggle for power, as has often been the case.

[elke]

Originally posted by cerulean


This was interesting. What I get from the article is that at first the author seems to be saying there is no way to get around the fact that the Russian Orthodox theology is anti-Semitic and unlike Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, there is no way to make a change in the underlying theology. But he finds a creative way to get around this problem of anti-Semitism anyway, working within the bounds of the theology he accepts. Unfortunately, he ends up with the ultimate idea that Jews, who remain in Russia and want to be accepted in society, should join the Orthodox Church.

One good point he makes is that the Russian Orthodox Church should never again permit itself to be allied to a struggle for power, as has often been the case.

Yes, that's basically what I got out of it. It wasn't a particularly pleasant read, I have to admit :( , but very educational. All along, I wasn't sure if what I was looking at was some sort of veiled antisemitism, or a genuine attempt at resolving the problem.

I will have to find the documentation - in English, but as quoted in some Russian sources, Leo Tolstoy has managed to find a good way of avoiding antisemitism altogether.

[Foster]

Hi, I am a new kid on the block so try to be merciful...
I am a Jew, born and bred in Moscow, so I guess, got something to say on the issue. The problem with the Russians is that they never had any freedom so they are totally unfamiliar with the concept of responsibility. Slaves, serfs, builders of communism... they were never to decide on their own life. Every time a new master issued a new rule their life turned to the worst, there must be somebody to blame. Now, who's better than Jews fit this purpose? Strange weird people going to "the church with no crosses" (I am quoting a neighbor of mine, long ago). There you go... funny bit is that the Russians sincerely believe in this "theory", even Solzhenitsyn falls prey to it. E.g. Jews are blamed for introducing communism to the Russians and then blamed for creating "oligarchs" who are doing just the opposite. Many WW2 veterans I knew told me great stories about their Jewish friends fighting side by side with them... but then generalized that most of the Jews were cowardly hiding somewhere in Siberia where the nazis couldn't get them. Even educated people in Russia are full of such outrageous superstitions about Jews that I found it hard to believe sometimes. And guess what... yep, Russian Orthodox church supports this.

[cerulean]

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021125&s=pipes112502
SOLZHENITSYN AND THE JEWS, REVISTED.
Alone Together

by Richard Pipes
Post date 11.21.02 | Issue date 11.25.02 E-mail this article

Recently Alexander Solzhenitsyn published a long book called Dvesti let vmeste, or Two Hundred Years Together, the first of two volumes devoted to the history of Jews in Russia from the third partition of Poland in 1795, when Russia, until then effectively without Jews, suddenly acquired one million Jewish subjects. It covers the years between 1795 and 1916. The follow-up volume will bring the story up to the year 1995. . . .

The reviewer then brings up some criticisms of the book, but ends this way:

Still, Solzhenitsyn's book is a notable achievement in its attempt to place the "problem" of Russian Jewry in political and social perspective, and one that does credit to its author's reputation. If Solzhenitsyn does not quite succeed in exonerating pre-revolutionary Russia of responsibility for subjecting its Jewish citizens to uncivilized discrimination--after all, it was the only Christian country that in the nineteenth century still subjected its Jewish citizens to medieval disabilities--and even if he does not fully understand the latter's predicament, at least he absolves himself of the taint of anti-Semitism.

Richard Pipes

Has anyone read the book?

[minusthejihad]

Not yet. But I will definately add it to my book list.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by takeo


many soviet-Russians of all nationalities That's straight from Orwell, no?

[takeo]

Ethnic russians have always been anti-semitic. The only think they know how to do is to drink and eat salo. And another think you know why russia is in a state that it's in, it's because all the bright minds(jewish) were forced to immigrate so what's left is the hard core dumb drinking idiots.

That's a racist generalisation, which is by the way false.
It is as much a myth as the myth that Jews are responsible for every disaster in Russian history.


hey, Big E: why so bent out of shape about it?
btw Tartars were not Turks, am i right about that? the slavs just thought they were.
but you guys are totally & thoroughly mixed with asians, dude.
where do you think those cheekbones that Sergei Federov has came from?
the slavs?

actually the slavs are originally asians as well, they come from Central Asia. Russians have been mixed up with ugrian-finnish people, Tatars (no relation to the mediterranean Turks, except their language!), Mongols, Scandinavians, Jews, gypsies, Germans, Caucasians, ...


Why, miriam? OK, i mean Soviet-citizens, from all nationalities...

[Evgeny]

Takeo point was that we slavs have are own unique culture that has nothing to do with Turks or anyone else.

Mods why is my Old nik not allowed to post? was i banned, if yes then for what?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by takeo


Why, miriam? OK, i mean Soviet-citizens, from all nationalities... Exactly :)

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
"Non Jewish Jews"

:D LOL



You would be considered a Non Jewish Jew. You have no identity with the Jewish religion. And being a communist you don't even believe in religion do you?

Also the point that was being made by my understanding was Marx and the rest on the Non Jewish Jews were not acting as Jews in matters of Communism or the Communist state. They were acting at Marxists.

[takeo]

so according to you all non-religious Jews are non-jews? Many among the staunchest israel-defenders on this board are not religious and will not appreciate your opinion.

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
so according to you all non-religious Jews are non-jews? Many among the staunchest israel-defenders on this board are not religious and will not appreciate your opinion.

Wrong Adolf. There is a difference between being someone who is not religious and someone who rejects the religion. You reject the religion. You are a Non Jewish Jew. And yes if there are others who reject Judaism who are Jewish they are non Jewish Jews.

[danholo]

Rob:

Wrong Adolf. There is a difference between being someone who is not religious and someone who rejects the religion. You reject the religion. You are a Non Jewish Jew. And yes if there are others who reject Judaism who are Jewish they are non Jewish Jews.

I would call them "bad" Jews, for rejecting the very principles of what they are (and should) stand for. But I wouldn't call the non-Jewish Jews to say the least.

[minusthejihad]

I like sell-out, self-hating, Messianic (if religious), the Adam Shapiros (think I'll start a band called that), or just the Marxists. Of course I would never want to be called a socialist or a communist, but damn it, that's why we left that god forsaken sespot of ideoligal myths. Of course, now I hear it all day from anti-SUV, conservationalists who set fire to cars. "Serenity Now!"

[takeo]

Wrong Adolf. There is a difference between being someone who is not religious and someone who rejects the religion. You reject the religion. You are a Non Jewish Jew. And yes if there are others who reject Judaism who are Jewish they are non Jewish Jews.

i'm non-religious but i don't reject religion.

there'sno such thing as "bad" Jews, it reminds me of the germans who weren't patriottic enough during WWII, called "bad Germans". everyone is entitled to his own convictions, it doesn't make him less a Jew.
jihad, not really myideological friend, is proud to be an atheist, is he a bad Jew as well?

[raven]

Nothin EVER changes with Russia. "Ethnic Russian" are you? Thats an old one. Thats code for "Im a REAL Russian and YOU Russian Jews arent." I heard this same attitude reported to me about Russians from my GRANDMA. E..GADS..

Look to YOURSELF..Ethnic Russian. The sorry state of Russia for CENTURIES has been YOUR FAULT. Each time someone tried to DRAG Russia out of the past ..they have had huge trouble. Read your OWN real history. Ill put OUR values up besides Peter the Great ANYTIME. What a shame. Russia could have evolved into a great country..

As for the Russian Mafia..It was up and going thruout the whole Communist (make that another version of the Zcar) period with every kind of people there. Democracy EVER flurish there? Unfortunately, NO. Its not commenserate with the Russian Character and Soul. Gots to have a strongman of SOME kind.

Russia vs America.

Russia= I hate Rich and Im going to blame you for all my troubles and kill you.

America= Im not crazy about rich, but Im going to get Educated, work hard and get as successful as YOU. And then Im going to pay back..and help the poor.

So much for the Russiaaannn SOULLLLL.

[takeo]

Raven, altough there is some truth in your post, it is very onesided, uncomplete and very naive.

As if all Americans urned their money by hard working...

the fact that the us is rich and Russia is poor and has always been poor is due to the general division generated in colonialism and semi-colonialism (Russia and the Ottoman Empire were semi-colonial countries, western banks owned most of the industry and railways) in the 19th century and the advance of the West in the early modern times. this division still divides the world, only some non-western countries (Japan) managed to bridge the gap.

[raven]

Tako..you want to NOT tell me about Russia. I am Russian. My Grandparents were. I know Russian history..and what they have ALWAYS done..to THEMSELVES. Cut the cr*p about Colonization.

Its not tooo too different in the Arab World also. They didnt have to be behind. They could have progressed also. What a waste of people and culture that could have competed and achieved all these years. Even your own have come to this realization. YOU held your own selves back.

What does it say that a teensy weesny group constantly rises to the TOP and others , like the mightly Islamic World hasnt.... WE work for it. You havent. You complained and kvetched and hated ..just like the Russians always do. BOTH a huge waste and for nothing...

[takeo]

this is typical racist BS. As if Russians don't work, as if Jews work harder than Russians. By the way, my country is probably as wealthy as yours, and I'm Russian in a way too, so don't teach me.
By the way, Arabs work too, and hard, the problem is that international economics and wealth are unequally divided. (and of course inside Arab countries and Russia too, but even in the US) I wouldn't be surprised if you've never visited an Arab country, people there get up at 7 am as well and work untill 5, don't make racist ignorant remarks.
I know that Russians are a bit more lasy than westerners, still they work too, and some as hard or harder than the average Westerner to make ends meet. This kind of unfairness can make me angry! It is typical American to blame people who are poor for being poor, that's why you have so many slum neighbourhoods in one of the wealthiest country in the world.

You complain about anti-semitism, rightly so, but at the same time i have seldom heard more discriminatory and racist language than on this forum!

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
this is typical racist BS. As if Russians don't work, as if Jews work harder than Russians. By the way, my country is probably as wealthy as yours, and I'm Russian in a way too, so don't teach me.


Boy are you way off. I'm guessing you mean France. Here are the figures from 2001. The first number is France then Germany, Italy and America.

GDP (US$ bn) 1,307- 1,848 - 1089 - 1,430 - 10,206
GDP per head (US$) 21,915 - 22,517 - 18,944 - 23,848 - 35,888
GDP per head (US$; PPP) 24,641- 25,645 - 25,451 - 25,227 - 35,888

http://www.economist.com/countries/France/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Economic%20Structure

[danholo]

Originally posted by takeo
i'm non-religious but i don't reject religion.

there'sno such thing as "bad" Jews, it reminds me of the germans who weren't patriottic enough during WWII, called "bad Germans". everyone is entitled to his own convictions, it doesn't make him less a Jew.
jihad, not really myideological friend, is proud to be an atheist, is he a bad Jew as well?

I didn't say that being a so-called "bad" Jew makes that person any less Jewish. A "bad" Jew rejects on being a Jew even if he/she is one. minusthejihad nor you have made that claim.

An atheist (or non-believing) Jew still accepts his Jewishness but if a Jew converts to Christianity for example you accept a different way of life and beliefs altogether. It's complicated... That "bad" Jew analogy was a bad example, though. I'll admit that.

[danholo]

Even if the GDP per head in the US is the highest in the world (?) it is very unequally distributed and there are huge gaps between the rich and poor.

Originally posted by Rob
Boy are you way off. I'm guessing you mean France. Here are the figures from 2001. The first number is France then Germany, Italy and America.

GDP (US$ bn) 1,307- 1,848 - 1089 - 1,430 - 10,206
GDP per head (US$) 21,915 - 22,517 - 18,944 - 23,848 - 35,888
GDP per head (US$; PPP) 24,641- 25,645 - 25,451 - 25,227 - 35,888

http://www.economist.com/countries/France/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Economic%20Structure

[Rob]

Originally posted by danholo
Even if the GDP per head in the US is the highest in the world (?) it is very unequally distributed and there are huge gaps between the rich and poor.

Maybe so but that wasn't what takeos claim was.

[elke]

Well, I am from Russia. Evgeny's views are something I grew up with and thankfully, my parents took me from that at relatively young age.

Jews as a group, Takeo, have indeed worked harder in Russia, simply because they had to, in order to achieve what they wanted over the objections of the antisemites. This is not to say that no Russian has worked as hard as every Jew, but in terms of group vs. group this is so. Read the interview Condolezza Rice gave to "Vanity Fair" last year, I believe: she said something in it that really struck a chord with me. Growing up in the South, before the Civil Rights movement picked up steam, her parents told her that she would have to be much better than her (white and male) competitors, and work much harder, in order to become what she wanted to become. This is basically the attitude that was instilled in us as well.

[danholo]

Originally posted by Rob
Maybe so but that wasn't what takeos claim was.

That was my own claim... :)

Takeo's claim was, indeed, false.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by danholo
Even if the GDP per head in the US is the highest in the world (?) it is very unequally distributed and there are huge gaps between the rich and poor.


I have lived in developing countries and I'll tell you that if you want to see really obscene wealth go live in a poor country. I have a 'Green' atlas around here somewhere and in 1999 the US ranked somewhere around 7-8th world wide in income disparity. I think Brazil was #1. Followed by Taiwan, Philippines, Congo, S. Africa and at least one European country, maybe Belgium. I forget. At any rate one could look up the actual themselves.

Poor people in America and in most developed countries are far better off then most people everywhere else on earth.

[Mediocrates]

It's important to note the dispersion of that disparity. For example take a look at this

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:IByUvcGPMzgC:poorcity.richcity.org/entundp.htm+income+disparity+worldwide&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Which is neither here nor there but it highlights the fact that the real squeeze is in the lower middle bands. That is, the rich get wealthier at the expense of the middle, not the poor.


The link has url tag stripped off because it gets translated as a smiley.

[takeo]

Yes, Elke, from this perspective, you're right. still, it only applies for ambitious people who want to make carreer, in average you can't say that Russian Jews work harder than etnic Russians, neither can you say that American blacks work harder in general than whites.
perhaps it's true that working ethics is a little higher among Jews than Russians, still, this isn't a general rule either.
By the way wealth and hardworking attittude are not always one natural consequences, for example people in ecuador or Guatemala work hard but gain very little, whereas Spanish, Greek or italians aren't hard workers at all but live very confortable.

oK, maybe the US is somewhat more wealthy than France, but you don't see the difference in everyday life, as France is more equally distributed than the us, the middle class in the us isn't whealthier than in France.
Yes, in thirth world countries the gap between the poor, middle class and rich is extreme, but i think the us is the devellopped country with the widest gap.

Perhaps finland, Norway and Sweden have the highest living Standard in the world, rich countries and equally distributed wealth, excellent social care, education, etc.

Great Brittain is the Western European country with the widest gap i think.

[Evgeny]

Why is everyone making me out to be the badguy?

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by takeo
Yes, Elke, from this perspective, you're right. still, it only applies for ambitious people who want to make carreer, in average you can't say that Russian Jews work harder than etnic Russians, neither can you say that American blacks work harder in general than whites.
perhaps it's true that working ethics is a little higher among Jews than Russians, still, this isn't a general rule either.
By the way wealth and hardworking attittude are not always one natural consequences, for example people in ecuador or Guatemala work hard but gain very little, whereas Spanish, Greek or italians aren't hard workers at all but live very confortable.

oK, maybe the US is somewhat more wealthy than France, but you don't see the difference in everyday life, as France is more equally distributed than the us, the middle class in the us isn't whealthier than in France.
Yes, in thirth world countries the gap between the poor, middle class and rich is extreme, but i think the us is the devellopped country with the widest gap.

Perhaps finland, Norway and Sweden have the highest living Standard in the world, rich countries and equally distributed wealth, excellent social care, education, etc.

Great Brittain is the Western European country with the widest gap i think.

Thank god I don't live in a socialist wanna-be country. It's as if you are proud to be poor. To you, a good worker is someone who works more hours than someone else. Well maybe in the pre-industrial era, but thanks to technology and education, its different now. To me, a good worker is someone who is smart enough to find a way to work less and make more, more money, more time for themselves, and more products.

Socialism is like an 11th grade science project. You work in a team, the hardest workers do all the work and learn, while the dumber, lazier bunch do nothing. In the end, the smarter, harder workers pull the weaker thru and all get the same grade. Absolutely no benefit for the harder, smarter worker. So then everyone feels worthless. By the way, those better, smaller minority that works harder (like in Russia or in science class) are usually the Jews anyway.

In Russia, my dad was a foreman for a group of drunks who never ever wanted to work. He worked harder to get his whole team through, what did he get?

My mom got paid as much as a garbage collector. Where is the fairness? Where is the benefits to work harder. THat's why that whole country is in the crapper. They said bye to the Jews, they said by to their best, smartest, and hardest workers. "All round the world, same song!"

[raven]

A recent joke by Russians themselves is "We PRETEND to work and they PRETEND to pay us". This sorry state of affairs has been business as usual in Russia ..forEVER. Its always been thus. Unfortunately.

[Evgeny]

Jihad you got it all wrong. The Jews left on there own. they cried prejudice and fled.

The "Russian" mob is a Jewish Mob. Your work ethic Shows when you kidnap Russian girls and use them as slaves. Russia needs to send all of them out. including the Sneaky Jewish Mob. You will do anything for money. when I first came here I thought I could find away to have discussions with you but that failed. I understand now why you’re the most hated people in the world. We may not be filthy rich but we have national pride and a history which you all will never come close to. You make your selves hated. Good Bye, I wont post here again.

[Teacake]

Originally posted by Evgeny
Jihad you got it all wrong. The Jews left on there own. they cried prejudice and fled.

The "Russian" mob is a Jewish Mob. Your work ethic Shows when you kidnap Russian girls and use them as slaves. Russia needs to send all of them out. including the Sneaky Jewish Mob. You will do anything for money. when I first came here I thought I could find away to have discussions with you but that failed. I understand now why you’re the most hated people in the world. We may not be filthy rich but we have national pride and a history which you all will never come close to. You make your selves hated. Good Bye, I wont post here again.

Bye!

[Rob]

Originally posted by Evgeny
You will do anything for money. when I first came here I thought I could find away to have discussions with you but that failed. I understand now why you’re the most hated people in the world. We may not be filthy rich but we have national pride and a history which you all will never come close to. You make your selves hated. Good Bye, I wont post here again.

See Ya Marxist. We already have one of you buddies here. Who need you?

I guess this is how you try to find a way to have a discussion by posting my problem with you guys is that Jewish Oligarchs have ruined Russia. they need to be brought down. also the fact that when american media reports "russian" mafia. when in facts most of Russian speaking mafio's in america are Jews, Balts, and Ukrainians. but i would like to know how you feel about Russians.

Yea, thats the way to make friends.

[Teacake]

Rob, you might want to add that one to your list... those who resort to hate speech toward Jews claiming they sought out a Jewish fourm hoping to have a "discussion."

[elke]

Evgeni, no one is making you out to be the "bad guy". You have made statements throughout, in this thread in particular, that have shown you to have a great deal of prejudice against various groups of people.

Sentiments such as yours are not uncommon to human beings in general, although many of us fight very hard to rid ourselves of them; while you seem to see nothing wrong with such views. In addition, you come to IsraelForum, a venue with an obvious constituency, and make comments such as "but my problem with you guys is that Jewish Oligarchs have ruined Russia. they need to be brought down", and - my personal favorite, "I understand now why you’re the most hated people in the world."

Some elementary analysis of your comments, Evgeni, should give you the answer you are looking for.

[takeo]

Thank god I don't live in a socialist wanna-be country. It's as if you are proud to be poor. To you, a good worker is someone who works more hours than someone else. Well maybe in the pre-industrial era, but thanks to technology and education, its different now. To me, a good worker is someone who is smart enough to find a way to work less and make more, more money, more time for themselves, and more products.

Socialism is like an 11th grade science project. You work in a team, the hardest workers do all the work and learn, while the dumber, lazier bunch do nothing. In the end, the smarter, harder workers pull the weaker thru and all get the same grade. Absolutely no benefit for the harder, smarter worker. So then everyone feels worthless. By the way, those better, smaller minority that works harder (like in Russia or in science class) are usually the Jews anyway.

In Russia, my dad was a foreman for a group of drunks who never ever wanted to work. He worked harder to get his whole team through, what did he get?

My mom got paid as much as a garbage collector. Where is the fairness? Where is the benefits to work harder. THat's why that whole country is in the crapper. They said bye to the Jews, they said by to their best, smartest, and hardest workers. "All round the world, same song!"

I agree to some extend with you. In the former Soviet Union, ambition was not really encouraged. There was stokanovism but it wasn't enough. i agree that people who work harder should get financial incitives.
By the way, garbage workers have a hard life, you know, it's normal that they gain the same amount of money as, for example, an employee. people who studied and with responsible jobs should gain more, that's right. please don't look down on certain jobs, as they're needed as well, these people are good workers too, don't measure your own success in business with everyone's job.
but that's still socialism. what isn't socialism is a rich kid who inherited a huge company and can become rich just by sitting on his bud. And what certainly isn't socialism is rich people being able to have a better education for their children as poor people. because that means that, whatever if you work hard or not, you'll start your life with a structural disadvantage, which will be inherited by your children as well more than likely.
I think communism in China has always delt better with this problem, as chinese work really hard, both in state-factories as in private ones.


Russia also sent all the mobsters to America. (post #57)

Jihad you got it all wrong. The Jews left on there own. they cried prejudice and fled.

The "Russian" mob is a Jewish Mob. Your work ethic Shows when you kidnap Russian girls and use them as slaves. Russia needs to send all of them out. including the Sneaky Jewish Mob. You will do anything for money. when I first came here I thought I could find away to have discussions with you but that failed. I understand now why you’re the most hated people in the world. We may not be filthy rich but we have national pride and a history which you all will never come close to. You make your selves hated. Good Bye, I wont post here again.

Evgeni
I know some posters here are racists (yes, jewish racists, it exists as well) against arabs, Russians whatever. but please don't react by becoming a racist yourself. don't make the same mistake as they do, don't generalise. SOME Jews are indeed involved in the maffia, but equally "good" Russians are involved in illegal businesses, don't make Jews a scapegoat for everything wrong in current Russian society as in the past.

I won't respond to rob or teacake anymore, those never make any factual arguments yet continue to post their extremism and insults. their world is a very simple one in which they are the good guys, and everyone disagreeing with them is a bad guy.

[takeo]

of course, as usual, i agree with Elke on this one.

[raven]

Evegy?? A CASE CLOSED...lets see now, what was REALLY there all along? "sneeky, do anything for money, enslaved Russian Girls, Mob ONLY a Jewish Mob, ran away CRYING discrimination"....

There wasnt ANY real discrimination...those Jewwwssss made it up. RIGHT. Yep..and there wasnt any Holocaust either..

Push the glass over, IF SCHMUTZ comes out..SCHMUTZ was in there all along.

-------------------------------------

This attitude is what is comming into America with people from other cultures..not just his culture. You wonder that while they are reporting an uptake in religious Hate Crimes..concerning the Moslem community.. the ALARMING uptake in Religious Hate Crimes are agaisnt JEWS. We should be talking about it. We should be discussing that even tho we have worked in the US on Tolorance actively for the last 100 years or so...it can all degrade if we start allowing our "newcommers" to polute American Society with their old world hate views with all the cr*p that ALL OF US ran away FROM. THis is not a nothing problem. This is a real problem. Some of those people will pass their hate ON. Some of those people new here, will get to be Congresspersons and Senators, some of those people WITH their old hatreds, will get into Policy Positions in the GOVNT. We have to bring this ISSUE up. Weve all done alot of work on Tolorance..we dont want it to be for nothing.

[KettleWhistle]

Hello, i am a ethnic Russian living in USA. i am for israel, but my problem with you guys is that Jewish Oligarchs have ruined Russia. they need to be brought down. also the fact that when american media reports "russian" mafia. when in facts most of Russian speaking mafio's in america are Jews, Balts, and Ukrainians. but i would like to know how you feel about Russians.

I am from FSU, and I couldn't care less about Russians. They are just one of the foreign peoples out there in the world.

Regarding "Russian" mob, it is made up of people from many different ethnic backgrounds. Ignorami who don't know any better call them Russians because they speak Russian.

[Toga]

I understand. I am not blaming the entire Jewish people; in fact I also have Jewish friends that came over to USA just like my family. I was just pointing out my problem with some Jews. I am sorry if I came of as generalizing.
I agree there was persecution of Jews in Russian empire. There is nothing I can do to excuse this. But in soviet era I see why people were less then kind to Jews. Many people were blaming communism on the Jews. And many Bolsheviks were Jews. Take for example Kaganovich. His policy on Ukraine starved millions of people (including Jews, and Russians).
Another thing is that Russian culture revolves around the eastern orthodox faith. And thus Russians had trouble-accepting people who didn’t except Christ.


The Russians have traditionally persecuted the Jews under any regime which is a variable. The persecution of Jews regardless of the reason is a constant based on another constant, the Russian nationalism.

It is funny how you give the Russian haters a religious allowance to hate.

[Toga]

Why is everyone making me out to be the badguy?

Well...perhaps you are as you carry the residual effects from your past.

[Toga]

I am a 1/4 Polish (non-Jew).

It does not get any more weird or ignorant than that. There is no such thing as a 1/4 Pole in a Jew. It does NOT exist.

[minusthejihad]

You do not exist either, and neither just your Jewishness, its just a fancy thought in a forum, dork.

[Toga]

Well..you can insult me as much as you desire but it will not change the facts. A Jew is not defined by fractions of any sort.

A Jews can only be 100% Jewish and nothing less than that.

My cousin married a sheigets. He is very nice. He was raised as a Seventh-Day Adventist who totally despised his religion, parents, etc.

He takes his kid to the Chabad classes and is very proud of the fact that his son is Jewish. Luckily for him he does not have to be Jewish to have a Jewish kid.

[KettleWhistle]

There is no such thing as a 1/4 Pole in a Jew. There is, too!

[Toga]

There is, too!

No there is not.

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, there is too!

[Toga]

Yes, there is too!


No, there is not but for some delirious Jews there is!

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, there is, too, but for some delirious Jews there isn't.

[minusthejihad]

Haha

[Tatar]

and insulted Tatars by saying that we are not related to Turks :mad:

In Russia at early times many Central Asian Tribes including Golden Horde were called Tatars. Even though the leaders of the Golden Horde were Mongols (very early relatives of Turks) high percentage of their soldiers and officers were Turkic. When they conquered Volga Bulgaria, they found their kins there, and actually were converted to Islam religion by Volga Bulgars.

Today the main groups of Tatars in Russia are Kazan Tatars (Volga Bulgars), Bashkurds, Mishar Tatars, Crimean Tatars, and Chuvashian (they are closely related to Mishar Tatars, but they are Christians). Big majority of these Tatars consider themselves Turkic, and many of them attend Turkish High Schools set up by Turks, and go to Universities in Turkey.

Of course Mishar Tatars, and Chuvashians have higher percentage of Finish and Slavic Blood than other Tatars. By the way I'm Mishar Tatar living in USA.

Just in case Evgeny is still reading these messages, there is a saying in Russia that goes something like this, "scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar" :) , and I'm also sure that the reverse will be also true.

[Justcurious]

There are almost a thousand Tatars living in Finland. They came here long ago and work in many kinds of professions, the oldest ones selling carpets. The woman you see in the link is married to Ben Zyskowics, who is a Finnish Jew and MP.

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=26477

[KettleWhistle]

Just in case Evgeny is still reading these messages, there is a saying in Russia that goes something like this, "scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar" :) , and I'm also sure that the reverse will be also true.

Probably true. I think if Evgeny will ever get to read this, he might turn to a slight shade of green for a moment.:D

[Toga]

There are almost a thousand Tatars living in Finland. They came here long ago and work in many kinds of professions, the oldest ones selling carpets. The woman you see in the link is married to Ben Zyskowics, who is a Finnish Jew and MP.

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=26477


Well...since his kids are NO longer Jewish he is the last Jew in his family.

[Justcurious]

Well...since his kids are NO longer Jewish he is the last Jew in his family.

That may be how you count. If a Jew is considered a group of people with the same background and not a religion, the children, in my mind, can call themselves half-Jews or partly Jews and there's nothing to be ashamed of. Would you say being a Jew is better than being a half-Jew? I doubt it.

[KettleWhistle]

I wouldn't pay much attention to the opinions like those exposed by Toga. From the ethno-centric standpoint, they will certainly be Jews, and the Jewish culture will be a part of their identity. Obviously, it is up to them how much of a role that will play in their lives and/or worldviews or whether they will be religious Jews.

[takeo]

Actually Tatars are a mix of many different nomadic and Ugrian people, not just Turkish people, and of course the slavic influence is heavy as well, or how do you explain the many blonde Tatars? Turks (from Turkey) speak a Turkish language but if you investigate their DNA they are closer to Greeks and other eastern mediterranean peoples.
Russians are slavs mixed with all kind of nomadic and Ugrian peoples, if you scratch a Russian, you'll see a caleidoscop of all kind of peoples who inhabited or invaded the Eurasian lands.

[SteveK]

Hi Takeo,

According to one 'minusanybrains', he now advertises on his byline:

Left IsraelForum.com on 4-4-05 thanks to the Three Stooges (Ophra, Toga, and SteveK) who make Takeo, a raving self-hating Jewish anti-semite look sane.

Are you a Jew?

[KettleWhistle]

Actually Tatars are a mix of many different nomadic and Ugrian people, not just Turkish people, and of course the slavic influence is heavy as well, or how do you explain the many blonde Tatars? Turks (from Turkey) speak a Turkish language but if you investigate their DNA they are closer to Greeks and other eastern mediterranean peoples.
Russians are slavs mixed with all kind of nomadic and Ugrian peoples, if you scratch a Russian, you'll see a caleidoscop of all kind of peoples who inhabited or invaded the Eurasian lands.

I'm sure you would know better than Tatar who the Tatars are. :rolleyes:

[takeo]

I'm sure you would know better than Tatar who the Tatars are. :rolleyes:

Actually I don't think Tatar would disagree, since he can't, there are historical proves volga-Tatars derived from the Bulgars who on their turn have traces of Alanes, Huns, Mongols, Turkish tribes, Finno-Ugrian tribes, slavs, etc. in their blood and costums.

[takeo]

Hi Takeo,

According to one 'minusanybrains', he now advertises on his byline:



Are you a Jew?

Yes, both of my parents are first generation Russian Jewish migrants.

[Tatar]

Tatar groups accept that Turkic element is strongest. It seems like religion is not making that much difference but language is playing an important role in accepting Turkic element.

Also according to their locations the mixture of Tatars vary. Most Kazan (Volga Bulgars) and Bashkord Tatars look more oriental than Meshar and Crimean Tatars. Most Meshar Tatars don't look much different than Fins or Slavs, while Crimean Tatars look more like Turks of Anatolia.

Tatars and Turks have common believe that it is much more important who we believe we are than who our ancestors were.

[SteveK]

Yes, both of my parents are first generation Russian Jewish migrants.

Hi takeo,

You and Ophra are castigated here for your pro-Arab views. Although, both of you see how those who bully you are themselves whining like puppies when kicked in a return post.

I understand fully the mentality of Ophra as I spent 7 years on secular Kibbutzim. But, your views, though agreed upon by Ophra, may have a different motivation to them. And, I agree with Ophra's motivations for her views, though I don't agree with her actual views.

I understand now that your parents are first generation immigrants from Russia to France. Are your pro-Arab views motivated by pressures of the French society given their rabid anti-semitism and saturation with Arab immigrants? Is your pro-Arab stance motivated out of fear?