View Full Version : Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?
Evgeni
06-13-2002, 01:22 PM
Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?
alexbmn
06-13-2002, 01:23 PM
chto?
Pushtak18
06-13-2002, 09:17 PM
Many Armenians get the picture that Israel does not recognize the Genocide that occured in the begning of the 20th century, but thats not true.
In Israel, and especially in Universitys and lecture halls there are many intellectuals from professors to hisorians who do recognize that there was a massacre.
I think that Israel got the bad reputation because of two things;
1) Israel and its ties with Turkey
2) Jewish professors like Professor Lewis, whom was in hot water a couple of years back regarding the Armenian genocide.
But overall, Armenians and jews are not the best of friends. Not many do know that Armenian jews were also victims of the Genocide.
danholo
10-06-2002, 03:46 AM
Anti-Armenian speeches?
Miriam
10-06-2002, 05:48 AM
The unfortunate fact is that AFAIK both Israel and some prominent Jewish US politicians have been handling the situation rather clumsily. Turkey is due to its unique position in an important strategic partner both to the US and Israel, and some politicians were apparently just too eager to please it and overlook some of its darker political corners. Armenian history is no less painful than the Jewish one, and I can well understand the sensitivities. The relations with both countries should be handled with greatest care. All the more, b/c in the fmr. USSR Armenia has been just about the only place where antisemitism on personal level (as opposed to government policies) was virtually non-existant.
takeo
10-09-2002, 05:52 PM
Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered. They don't want to aknowledge that unfortunately genocide has not only cursed the Jewish community. Of course the good relations with Turkey are certainly one of the causes too.
Armenians are not anti-semitic, and one of the most famous Armenian families, Aznavour (Aznavurian), both famous in France and Turkey, is Jewish. And in the former Soviet-Union (as well as in Romania), Jews and Armenians got along very well, even inside the CPSU and even in the Russian federation.
armenians do fight Muslims as well, but they don't identify with Israel, in fact i often heard the other way round. armenians described the armenian population in Nagorno karabakh as treatened by Azeri nationalism, and i often hear from people of armenian origin "we don't want to become like the palestinians, we will not become second-class citizens in our own historical country". On the Western front however most Armenians have accepted the fact that they will never be able to return to Eastern Turkey.
From what I know of the Armenian genocide, it was indeed a horrible crime. It does not seem to have had the systematic, inexorable quality of the Nazi Holocaust though, which does not in any way excuse or mitigate the harm done. The only reason I can think of that this crime is not widely talked about is the importance of Turkey diplomatically and politically. Armenia finds itself in the same bind as Israel - its good graces are less important to the powers-that-be than those of its adversaries. Hence, the unequal and unfair treatment they receive from the international community.
Actually, from what I remember, the Armenians used to identify themselves with Jews quite a bit in Russia. They used to recount all the similarities between our peoples that exist on the collective level. I haven't heard of much antisemitism from Armenians either, and certainly never experienced it from any of the Armenians my family has known - of which there were many.
In addition, their food is awesome (especially the churchhella - walnuts strung on a string and covered with dried grape juice! Yum! :) Stupid comment, I know :( )
takeo
10-09-2002, 06:11 PM
I love armenian and Georgian cuisine too, unfortunately you have to travel to Armenia or Russia to taste the real armenian kitchen :(
L@mplighterM
10-09-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by takeo
Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered.
Some Frenchmen refer to the holocaust as a little detail in history. Is that how it goes?
Snip:
VIEWS AGAINST GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS
a. Is 24 April 1915 the day of genocide?
24 April 1915 is the day, in which the Ottoman government began to arrest the suspects of Armenian terrorism, violence and treachery. The declaration 24 April as the genocide date is as fictitious as the genocide allegations. On 24 April 1915, the Armenian Committee centers were closed, their documents were confiscated, and the leaders were arrested. The government by sending instructions to 14 cities has tried to prevent the events. 37 Following this instruction 2.345 people were arrested. If there had been a genocide occurred than the government would have arrested the entire Armenian population in Istanbul. This number was 82.880. 38 The Armenians exploits this date because the leaders of the revolutionists were arrested on this date.
b. Are the words of "sending" and "settling" carrying any implication of genocide?
Although some of the Armenian leaders have arrested and the Armenian Committee's were closed, the violent events had increased. The events that began in the big cities spread to the smaller towns and the security forces failed to maintain peace. The security forces were sending messages to the city centers and offering resettlement of the Armenian habitants. 39
Relocation was not implemented by loading the Armenians to ships or trains and deporting them out of the Turkish borders. This was a measurement to maintain the wholeness of the Empire that was loosing her lands. Despite all the negative factors, the Ottoman administrators executed the law with calmness. The essences, which will be obeyed during the immigration, were regulated by instructions. In these instructions every detail about the safety of the immigrants was revealed. One of them is given in Document 7, "the Regulation on Administration of Armenian properties and immovable properties, in the event of a necessary resettlement in wartime." The third and the fifth articles of the regulation on abandoned Armenian properties reveal benevolence of the government. Article 3: The type, quantity, and value of the property, the names of the owners will bee recorded and they will be sent to the places that would be used a depot such as schools, churches or houses, all the properties would be stored and a copy of the record would be given to the Commission of Abandoned Properties...
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3752
Whatever happened to the Armenians doesn?t even come close to what fate the Jews in Europe suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
How can you even speculate what some Jews may or may not see?
Were the Armenians involved in terrorism against the Turkish government or not?
takeo
10-10-2002, 04:59 AM
It doesn't really surprise me that you support Turkish fascism.
yes some french referred to the Holocaust as a detail of WWII-history, surprisingly enough it is your good friend Le Pen, who is hated by the majority of French but apparently loved in ultra-zionist circles for his anti-arab racism.
you can't compare genocides, there is no "better genocide", and there is certainly no justification for the murder on 100's of 1000's of people, and there are sufficient resources prooving the genocide against the Armenian people. You're a negationist.
I've noticed that, as usual, you use a very unbiased source...
the Armenians in Istanbul were not affected, that's right, but the whole of North-Eastern Turkey was etnically cleansed, and many families ended in the Syrian desert. People who support the etnic cleansing of the Palestinian people will not object to the Armenian genocide either, the site you mentioned seems to suggest that Armenians shouldn't have opposed Turkish government, this is also the most popular argument for supporting the etnic cleansing of Palestinians. Yes, the Turks had laws and they conducted the operations very efficiently, as the nazi's, the only difference is that they didn't registrate what happened during this "relocation", but the fact that 100's of 1000's of people just disappeared is proove enough.
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...
L@mplighterM
10-10-2002, 06:13 AM
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...
I know all about the Jews in Warsaw and a matter of fact I posted an article about it. There’s no comparison here at all! None!!!
In any event I’m not denying that the Turks were brutal against the Armenians. Am I? There’s no justification for deliberate slaughter of human beings. None!
Le Pen isn’t my friend but I would support any government that sent the Radical Arabs and their supporters packing! I’m certain that anti Semitism would decrease 99.99999999999% (this may be exaggerated a bit) in France after such a move.
Further no one is engaged in ethnic cleansing in the WB and GS. No one except the Palestinians that are killing Jewish settlers!
Mediocrates
10-10-2002, 06:23 AM
I would ask takeo how he feels about Turkey's permanent "always a bridesmaid never a bride" status with EU membership?
We hear conflicting messages - eg. the official and the real. One is about human rights abuses and they other is about the muslim population. I tend to see it as a little of both. The EU doesn't want to inherit some of Turkey's legacy of rights 'problems' nor do the main 5 - France, Italy, Germany, Benelux really want to open the floodgates to millions of Turkish muslims either.
I am puzzled though Greece's stance about not wanting to hold up a timetable for future discussions. Is this the obligatory "we really don't hate them" speech or do they have a real motive? Or, do they understand it will never happen anyway so why not put on a happy mask?
takeo
10-10-2002, 03:52 PM
actually I think the Greek really want the Turks in the European Union, because it would put an end to the position of Greece as the "end of the world" for trade and "beginning of the world" for illegal immigration, a position which kept Greece in the position of the poorest and less devellopped country of the EU. For the same reason Germany always favored eastern expansion.
Turkey was not admitted because of three reasons:
1) human rights and democracy, in this respect Turkey is even worse than Croatia, yugoslavia, romania and Bulgaria, parties are banned, torture is still common, kurds still don't have any rights, etc.
2)economy: Turkey is in an economic crisis currently, and its infrastructure is not yet ready for entrance, but it is however better than most other balcans countries and even not so much worse than Poland (the reason why Bulgaria and Romania were not admitted is mainly economy)
3)Cyprus: Turkey still recognises the breakaway republic of Northern Cyprus and keeps troops there, which infuriated the EU.
Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.
L@mplighterM
10-10-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by takeo
Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.
Islamic Fundamentalism is on the rise in Turkey even to the point where they'll gain ground in the comming election.
takeo
10-10-2002, 05:01 PM
that's right, but the "fundamentalists" rule Istanbul since many years and Istanbul doesn't look like Afghanistan yet... they are closer to European christian-democrats than to the taliban. People vote for this party as a way to vote against the regime-parties (by the way the party is in favor of entrance to the EU as well, and is much less radical than the militaristic fascist grey wolves which have been included in the government). But the party will most probably be banned from participating, as well as the left-wing parties, another sign that Turkey is no democracy.
Mediocrates
10-10-2002, 06:04 PM
What are you saying? It's their fault? Who else has recognized it?
Miriam
10-11-2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Countries that do recognize the Armenian Genocide:
http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i.html
In France, Greece and Russia it is ILLEGAL to deny the Armenian Genocide. I don't really understand your fixation on Israel. What does it matter, on practical level? Israel has little influence on world politics with regard to third parties.
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Countries that do recognize the Armenian Genocide:
http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i.html
In France, Greece and Russia it is ILLEGAL to deny the Armenian Genocide.
Look Knightian,
Just because you heard one Israeli politician circumvent a debate about the Armenian Genocide does not mean that ISRAELIS in general do not believe that it did not happen. Armenians and Jews in have mostly got along and depended on each other, especially when living around animals like a large percentage of Azerbaijanis, like in Baku. So now you are going to focus all your critisism on one small country in this vast world, while other larger and more globally affecting countries get off the hook. Whetever, that's PURE ANTI-SEMITISM.
L@mplighterM
10-11-2002, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Supposing you wakened tomorrow morning and Israel recognized the Armenian holocaust what then?
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Knight
You're an idiot.
Care to elaborate on that last point ?
I'm Jewish.
Pariff,
Well thank you. I'll return the favor you shmuck.
Yes, I'll elaborate, putting Israel and Israelis who most of the world believes are all Jews, up to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and critisizing it but failing to critisize other nations is in fact anti-semetism.
Anti-semitism is:
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Can you deny that this isn't hostility? Sorry if I don't stop to ask what you are when all day long we are bombarded with anti-semitic tripe by skum on this forum. So at this point, when I hear you refer to Israel's denial being the lowest thing on earth, sorry if I tend to generalize you with the rest of the people who share your view.
And my Uncle is Armenian, what's your point?
Mediocrates
10-11-2002, 11:41 AM
Knight: make your case to the MFA. I'd like to read the response.
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Israel is on a higher moral ground because of the Holocaust.
I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
takeo
10-11-2002, 07:05 PM
"How would you feel if Armenia denied the Holocaust with the excuse that Iran is a major strategical ally and Iran does not want us to recognize the Holocaust "
Very interesting point you made, knight!
However you should keep in mind that Israel is a predominantly Jewish state, but it does not represent the Jewish people as whole, I think most Jews feel sympathy for Armenians and recognise the genocide, whatever the policy of Israel (as usual full of hypocrisy)
“Were the Armenians involved in terrorism against the Turkish government or not?”
Yes you can call it Terrorism or Freedom fighters, here is another example of terrorism (according toL@mplighterM) led by an Armenian. I hope his death was justified for some cause.
“Seven elderly men in Paris, five Poles and two Romanians, tell their stories of life and death in the Resistance in Paris. Almost all were Jewish and had fled from anti-semitism to eke out a living, illegally, in France. Most were also from communist families.
They were young, 16 and 17, when they volunteered for the underground circle which carried out extremely risky assassinations of German officers, throwing bombs into the restaurants they frequented, attacking their cars and barracks. Reliving those days of more than half a century ago, these modest old men have no regrets, except perhaps that they did not do enough, they did not kill enough Nazis. "I'd willingly kill more Nazis today," says one.
The centrepiece of the film is the execution in 1944 of 24 men from the Resistance group led by the Armenian poet Manouchian. This was the tragedy which has marked these survivors of the same heroic circle. This film created a scandal in France, where it was initially banned from television because of its shocking thesis that these foreign Jews were deliberately sacrificed by the French Communist party in a struggle for power, ahead of the end of the war, between the communists and General De Gaulle. The modern-day anti-communist historians of this theory come over as something of a contrast to these strong, old men who lost everything except their political convictions.”
"In 1943, Missak Manouchian, a militant immigrant Armenian leader in the French Resistance was arrested and later executed along with 22 other partisans. These were the ones focused on from a group of approximately 200 members who were eventually rounded up and executed. What was special about the 22 was that they were immigrant Jews with non-French names. This made them perfect to put on a poster for propaganda purposes. _
The Germans thought that Jews were the result of the interbreeding of "Aryans, Mongrels and Negroes" and they deserved to be treated as something other than human. The poster denounced the immigrants as "Jewish, Armenian and other stateless terrorists." This helped to further separate them, for the official record, from the true (French-born) heroes of the Resistance (sarcasm intended but this is not meant to demean the French resistance fighters). Although I don't pretend to be an expert on the meaning of the term terrorist, I think that many would agree that when another country invades you and you strike back, your actions are those of a patriot and not a war criminal. "
takeo
10-12-2002, 04:28 PM
thank you ara for this great posts, i have nothing to add, except that the PCF did not sacrifice these men because they were of foreign origin, 1000's of communists died, of which most had French roots. What would have been the advantage of such a policy for the PCF?
“Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?”
Armenians are not asking Israel or the Jewish lobby to recognize the Armenian Genocide. We understand the importance of Israel to keep a balanced relationship with Turkey.... What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest. I hope you all understand that stand isn’t any different than a Holocaust revisionist. Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it.
“Who does, officially?”
Presently the countries that recognize the Armenian Genocide are the following: Uruguay, Cyprus, Argentina, Russia, Greece, Lebanon, Belgium, Italy, France, two Australian states and Geneva.
"he is right" >> Fturk
David
Wiesenthal Centre Urges Turkey to Condemn Antisemitic Article that
Wiesenthal Center Los Angeles
Notes that "such Incitement contravenes
Provisions of the European Union which Turkey Aspires to Join"
Paris, 23 August 2004
In a letter to Turkish Foreign Minister, Abdullah Gül, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's Director for International Liaison, Dr. Shimon Samuels, expressed horror at the article by Abduharrim Karakoc in the 17 August edition of the
daily newspaper Vakit (Time), which, not only glorifies the arch terrorist Osama bin Laden and the Al-Qa'eda organization, it also extols the name of Adolf Hitler and justifies the Holocaust.
Karakoc's most outrageous comments include:
"The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."
"He predicted what would happen these days. He got rid of the Jews, because he knew that the conjurer Jews, who perceive racism as a religion and take pleasure in splattering the world with blood, would be a big trouble for
the world."
"All non-Jewish countries are under risk, including Turkey."
"It seems that Hitler was a very foresighted man..."
"It was Hitler yesterday and Osama bin Laden today..."
Samuels recalled the 12 January 2004 meeting in Ankara between the Minister, the Wiesenthal Centre's Associate Dean, Rabbi Abraham Cooper and himself, in which Mr. Gül had thanked the Centre "for its acknowledgement of Turkey's protection of its Jewish citizens during World War Two, its solidarity with the Turkish victims of terrorism and its support for his country's rightful place in Europe."
Samuels noted that: "The content of the Vakit article however, not only appears to violate Turkish law, but its apologia for genocide and incitement to antisemitism contravene the anti-racism provisions of the European Union which Turkey aspires to join. They also negate conventions
of the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, to which Turkey is a signatory."
The Centre urged the Turkish Government "to publicly condemn this article and to take disciplinary measures against its author and the editors of Vakit."
Samuels concluded: "This contradiction of Turkey's over five hundred year tradition of friendship with the Jewish people must be vigorously denounced."
The purpose of the 12 January Ankara meeting had been to discuss Turkey's cooperation in the Wiesenthal Centre's global campaign to designate suicide bombing as a crime against humanity.
http://www.juedische.at/TCgi/TCgi.cgi?target=home&Param_Kat=3&Param_RB=4&Param_Red=2988
Semsem
08-24-2004, 10:14 PM
<<The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."<<
Disgusting. The Turks are becoming like the Greeks now.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 10:17 PM
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 10:19 PM
>>mostly got along and depended on each other, especially when living around animals like a large percentage of Azerbaijanis, like in Baku. <<
Jews were not perecuted in Azarbazan.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 10:22 PM
"How would you feel if Armenia denied the Holocaust with the excuse that Iran is a major strategical ally and Iran does not want us to recognize the Holocaust "<<
Takeo you make me SICK. You bash the Jews and Israel every second and one day you will need the Jews to help you.
<<However you should keep in mind that Israel is a predominantly Jewish state, but it does not represent the Jewish people <<
That's what you think.
<< I think most Jews feel sympathy for Armenians and recognise the genocide, whatever the policy of Israel (as usual full of hypocrisy)>>
Most Jews feel sympathy for the Armenians. My family always did as there were many armenians in Egypt from Turkey.
<<The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."<<
Disgusting. The Turks are becoming like the Greeks now.
There will be always some anti-semitists around the world including Turkey,you should learn to live with that dear Semsem.
that's right, but the "fundamentalists" rule Istanbul since many years and Istanbul doesn't look like Afghanistan yet....
Did you ever came to Istanbul takeo? I guess your answer will be "no" :rolleyes:
I have nothing to say anything about Armenian Genocia,i don't know what happened 80-90 years ago,i m not historian.But only thing i wanted that armenians understand that we have no bad feelings about them now but eh sure they don't care about that..
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
With your viewpoint turks can say that easily arabs never like them because of their relations with Israel and it's true,years by years Turkey was under Arab attack because of the relations with Israel,they call to Turkey "ungodly","non muslim" even "atheist" country.Biggest part of arabian public think that Turkey was or is puppet of America and Israel,so why Turkey didn't cut relations with Israel because of that?
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 12:40 PM
The Armenian genocide was very different from the Holocaust. It was a result of manipulation of Turkish Arminians by emperial powers, in particular Russia, in order to weaken Turkey. Initially, there was an uprisal against Turkey by the Arminians, who were incited by Russia to push for autonomy. It was ruthlessly put down, but created distrust among the two groups. What is more commonly known as the Armenian Genocide or Armenian Holocaust, was a result of the distrust of the government of Young Turks towards Armenians, and consequent conflict between the two groups that resulted in about 1.5 million being expelled from Turkey, and many others joining Russian Armenians to fight the Turks.
redcake
08-26-2004, 06:22 PM
I like how Genocide in Armenia is always mentioned in some competitive way, like one event has to belittle the other. The real sentiment is "those darn Jews need to shurt up about the stupid Holocaust and share their victimhood, because they're not so special". Of course there's a mutual empathy as their should be, but this idea that there should be even billing is just an immature tactic to bait Jews. The Holocaust was a unique event in Modern History, so anyone who tries to equate it to Armenia is working off of questionable motives. This is usually the argument just before someone tip toes on Holocaust denial territory.
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 07:59 PM
I like how Genocide in Armenia is always mentioned in some competitive way, like one event has to belittle the other. The real sentiment is "those darn Jews need to shurt up about the stupid Holocaust and share their victimhood, because they're not so special". Of course there's a mutual empathy as their should be, but this idea that there should be even billing is just an immature tactic to bait Jews. The Holocaust was a unique event in Modern History, so anyone who tries to equate it to Armenia is working off of questionable motives. This is usually the argument just before someone tip toes on Holocaust denial territory.
I wholeheartedly agree that there is no comparison between the two events. However, in my experience, the feelings about these events among Jews and Armenians are those of sympathy, and not empathy. For the Armenians, it is an important and tragic event in their history, and they intend to remember it just like Jews do with the Holocaust. Also, in regards to Turkey, most Armenians do not blame it for actions of a government they had 80 years ago.
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 08:02 PM
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
The Armenians don't like us??? Every Armenian I've met was just fine with the Jews. Furthermore, the Jews have been living in Armenia for centuries without any conflicts with the locals.
CanDo
08-29-2004, 11:36 AM
What is more commonly known as the Armenian Genocide or Armenian Holocaust, was a result of the distrust of the government of Young Turks towards Armenians, and consequent conflict between the two groups that resulted in about 1.5 million being expelled from Turkey, and many others joining Russian Armenians to fight the Turks.
I just learned about the Armenian Genocide a couple of years ago. I was shocked to know that there were crimes against a civilian population, similar to the Holocaust, only a couple of decades before the Holocaust.
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
I don't see a "conflict between the two groups", as much as I see a one sided slaughter of 1.5 Armenia men, women and children by the Turks.
Hitler supposedly used Turkey's genocide of the Armenians as a blueprint for the Holocaust against the Jews.
I just learned about the Armenian Genocide a couple of years ago. I was shocked to know that there were crimes against a civilian population, similar to the Holocaust, only a couple of decades before the Holocaust.
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
I don't see a "conflict between the two groups", as much as I see a one sided slaughter of 1.5 Armenia men, women and children by the Turks.
Hitler supposedly used Turkey's genocide of the Armenians as a blueprint for the Holocaust against the Jews.
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
I wish I could give a long answer but I have to go to the Turkish embassy...
CanDo
09-01-2004, 01:07 PM
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
This doesn't surprise me.
The Armenians were actually the breadbasket for Turkey's army, just like Israel was the breadbasket for Gaza.
Turkey wanted to kill all Armenians and steal their land and possessions, which Turkey successfully did. The Arabs want to kill all Jews and steal their land and possessions, which they will never do.
Turkish forces plundered Baku in 1918, stealing from men, women and children alike. At least the government and people of Turkey have been honorable and have apologized, and felt the shame for Turkey's genocide of the Armenian people!
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/1918.html
September 15 to September 17, 1918:
"The three-day massacre by Turkish military forces under the command of Nuri Pasha (Enver's younger brother) and Halil Pasha (Enver's uncle) results in the death of 30,000 Armenian civilians in the city of Baku."
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
There are minimum 2 sides in every case.
Extend your research some further and try some alternative thesis too.
mostly through websites such as:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
Atrocities were quite obviously committed by both sides. Armenians with the support of Colonial powers started the killings, revolts etc. with the express purpose of creating the situation where there would be cause for intervention by colonial powers. Armenians were not a majority in any of the areas called Armenia and that therefore, Turks did not take Armenian lands, Armenians were trying to de-Turkify so-called Armenia with the help of the allies fighting against Ottomans.
It is a proven fact that most of the sources referred to substantiate the so-called-genocide are WW I British WAR PROPAGANDA (http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/mccarthy.htm) based on missionary statements, Patriarchy statements etc and these are suspect.
Most of the “EVIDENCE” sited are based on lies (not just lies but outright forgeries) such as the Andonian telegrams (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/andonian.htm) , Hitler’s statement (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm) , skull pyramids (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/kirli-vs-armenview.htm), etc., I am posing the legitemate question of : WHY would people who believe they have a legitimate issue resort to forgeries?
There is a distinction between atrocities committed by both sides and genocide. Armenian deaths do not constitute a genocide. Thus everyone who claims genocide with respect to this issue is lying or is misinformed about either the events or what genocide means.
While this has nothing to do with whether there was a genocide or not, the numbers must be questioned again and again. I am pointing out from a lot of sources that the first claims of Armenian losses (not deaths specifically) were certainly less than 600.000 and that now it has gone up to between 1.5 to 2.5 million. Mc Carthy demographic studies (http://www.turkishforum.com/armenian/armenians_during_ottoman.html
) show that it can at max be 600.000. In the same region and at the same time there were over 1 million Turkish civilian deaths, and about 500.000 of those deaths are directly attributable to Armenian atrocities and this claim is based on Archive documents. Again, the enforced-migration- a decision taken in self-defense- was lawful, therefore meticulously recorded. According to these documents the number subjected to migration was 459.000 and 382.000 arrived at their destinations (This does not mean they lived happily ever after) Around 10.000 losses are attributed to various attacks against which the Ottoman administration had to take further precautions. These are Archive documents. Apart from the forced-migration, and in addition to it; there were migrations (a lot of it voluntary or in line with Russian or allied plans regarding the new Armenia to be established, to the Caucuses, Iran and USA. Thus the total migration reaches up to 750 to 800 thousand people and these are not deaths or killings. (I point out that even Toynbee mentions that 500 000 people reached their destinations.) Regarding deaths, the horrible wartime conditions by pointing out that 700 thousand muslims at the same time and in the same area did not die because of Armenian attacks (unlike the 500 000 that are directly attributed to Armenian atrocities) but simply due to hunger, disease etc, and I cite the fact that of the 5 thousand some Armenians that withdrew with the French from Maras, two or three thousand did not survive although there were no external attacks. (Georges Boudière, "Notes sur la campagne de Syrie-Cillicie: l’affaire de Marafl (janvierfévrier 1920)", Turcica, Paris/Strasbourg, IX/2-X (1978), p. 160. ) All such numbers are basically confirmed by Nubar Pasha’s numbers (Nubar was to be the President of the Armenia to be established!)
There are minimum 2 sides in every case.
Extend your research some further and try some alternative thesis too.
mostly through websites such as:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
Atrocities were quite obviously committed by both sides. Armenians with the support of Colonial powers started the killings, revolts etc. with the express purpose of creating the situation where there would be cause for intervention by colonial powers. Armenians were not a majority in any of the areas called Armenia and that therefore, Turks did not take Armenian lands, Armenians were trying to de-Turkify so-called Armenia with the help of the allies fighting against Ottomans.
It is a proven fact that most of the sources referred to substantiate the so-called-genocide are WW I British WAR PROPAGANDA (http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/mccarthy.htm) based on missionary statements, Patriarchy statements etc and these are suspect.
Most of the “EVIDENCE” sited are based on lies (not just lies but outright forgeries) such as the Andonian telegrams (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/andonian.htm) , Hitler’s statement (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm) , skull pyramids (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/kirli-vs-armenview.htm), etc., I am posing the legitemate question of : WHY would people who believe they have a legitimate issue resort to forgeries?
There is a distinction between atrocities committed by both sides and genocide. Armenian deaths do not constitute a genocide. Thus everyone who claims genocide with respect to this issue is lying or is misinformed about either the events or what genocide means.
While this has nothing to do with whether there was a genocide or not, the numbers must be questioned again and again. I am pointing out from a lot of sources that the first claims of Armenian losses (not deaths specifically) were certainly less than 600.000 and that now it has gone up to between 1.5 to 2.5 million. Mc Carthy demographic studies (http://www.turkishforum.com/armenian/armenians_during_ottoman.html</p><p%20style=) show that it can at max be 600.000. In the same region and at the same time there were over 1 million Turkish civilian deaths, and about 500.000 of those deaths are directly attributable to Armenian atrocities and this claim is based on Archive documents. Again, the enforced-migration- a decision taken in self-defense- was lawful, therefore meticulously recorded. According to these documents the number subjected to migration was 459.000 and 382.000 arrived at their destinations (This does not mean they lived happily ever after) Around 10.000 losses are attributed to various attacks against which the Ottoman administration had to take further precautions. These are Archive documents. Apart from the forced-migration, and in addition to it; there were migrations (a lot of it voluntary or in line with Russian or allied plans regarding the new Armenia to be established, to the Caucuses, Iran and USA. Thus the total migration reaches up to 750 to 800 thousand people and these are not deaths or killings. (I point out that even Toynbee mentions that 500 000 people reached their destinations.) Regarding deaths, the horrible wartime conditions by pointing out that 700 thousand muslims at the same time and in the same area did not die because of Armenian attacks (unlike the 500 000 that are directly attributed to Armenian atrocities) but simply due to hunger, disease etc, and I cite the fact that of the 5 thousand some Armenians that withdrew with the French from Maras, two or three thousand did not survive although there were no external attacks. (Georges Boudière, "Notes sur la campagne de Syrie-Cillicie: l’affaire de Marafl (janvierfévrier 1920)", Turcica, Paris/Strasbourg, IX/2-X (1978), p. 160. ) All such numbers are basically confirmed by Nubar Pasha’s numbers (Nubar was to be the President of the Armenia to be established!)
Well thank's for clearing that up, now I see my grand grandmother and her 2 years old daughter tried to attack Turkey nd that's why they had to escape their native Turkey and had most of their family members murdered, and my grandmother's cousin from the father's side probably tried to attack the good German soldiers who liberated Ukraine and deserved to be shot out to a mass grave.
demirturk
09-23-2004, 03:49 AM
We, Turks, do not deny that during and after armenian uprising, there were brutal killings in southeastern part of the Ottoman Empire. But as Mete perfectly set out for your eyes and minds that both sides committed those crimes. It was unfortunate but nonetheless happened. No one claimes that your relatives were attackin Turkey so they had to deport but it is a fact that Armenians in general was attacking ottoman forces along with russian troops and they committed massacres in several towns and cities. Forgive us for not giving our land to you. No nation in the world would give away its land without a fight and in this particular fight you, Armenians, lost.
I wish there was no killings at all and we could live together but you chose to be sided with a foreign power and turned against your own government, therefore there was a bitter price to pay. Once again , I am sorry that people had to suffer but we suffered too. If there was a crime , it was two sided. We both hold the same sword by the sharp end and both got cut.
If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of them.
This is how I feel. Feel free to answer me.
Demir
Emunah
09-23-2004, 09:38 AM
The denial of the Armenian Genocide seems to be a Turkish obsession. It reminds me of the holocaust deniers who use all sorts of fancy false facts to bolster their case. Look, the genocide happened 89 years ago. What is the harm in simply accepting this? What do you lose? Do you think that you could not live with yourself as a country if you acknowleged that Kemal was a flipping cruel man? That the Turks are not the nice wonderfule "model of democracy" that you would like the west to believe it is AND always has been. I don't see how you can claim to be truthful when you have denied the Kurds the right to even speak their own language much less maintain their culture. That doesn't give you much credibility on the issue of the Armenians 89 years ago does it? The Kurds have acknowleged AND appologized for their part in the Armenian Genocide and the whole world has looked at the evidence and made there decsion...and the decision is that YES that's what happened.
The only reason Israel STOPPED acknowledging the genocide is because Turkey made it a pre-condition for diplomatic relations. They did the same thing with our state department! We stopped OFFICIALLY acknowledging the Armenian genocide too, against the protestations of Bob Dole, who has long worked with the Armenians.
I have looked at Turkish "talking point" sites and it's a load of BS. Isn't there ANYONE in the Caucuses and Anatolia that can just admit to being wrong?
KettleWhistle
09-23-2004, 10:22 AM
We can also ask why few outside of Turkey recognize that the Armenians were a pawn in the Russian and British games of imperial ambitions.
I'm not trying to imply that what happened there was right or can be justified, but it needs to be seen in proper historical and cultural context.
demirturk
09-24-2004, 12:18 AM
You just keep insulting Turks and Turkey and throw away bags of BS. It is very typical of people who has little intelligence and less knowledge. Even a monkey could have understood after what were posted in this forum alone that we , Turks, do not have to admit anything. It is simple even by your standards. Ottoman empire had crashed an uprising by Armenians, Armenians had sided with Russia and then France, They massacred both Turks and Kurds. As a precaution government decided to move them from war zone and they were not relocated out of the empire, they were simply noved to other parts of the Ottoman empire. And that happened in the war zone in major cities they lived as it is. They were even free enough to commit murder in Istanbul, see Ottoman bank incident. During this thime of peril, terrible things happened. Empire was poor and their resources were insufficient to carry out the task of moving millions of people.People died, that is for sure. But there was no genocide or systemetical killing by government. You, Armenians, started all these and we finished it. You guys still dream of taking of some of our cities. I am sorry that people had to suffer but it was not our making. Next time you will not uprise against your government and take side with the enemy. Ouch, I forget you have your own little country now and you can only commit treason against yourselves.
I am sure you guys are capable of that too. Losers...
Berkovic
09-24-2004, 09:58 AM
Israel does not want to Recognize the Armenian genoicde on a couple of issues.
One being that there is alot of historical debate over it. Sure, people died. It was in a time of the collapse of the Ottaman Empire. When an empire falls, people die. Im sure that there was alot Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Jews as well as Aremenians who perrished in those times.
Also, Armenia has in some cases been Anti-Israel. Most people i know who lived during the USSR days in the armenian area that happened to be jewish claimed that the 'biggest anti-semites' were the Armenians who hated jews. On contrarary the friendliest people were the Turkmenistanis :D ....
Israel does not want to ruin good relations with Turkey in which it has.
Also, Armenia has in some cases been Anti-Israel. Most people i know who lived during the USSR days in the armenian area that happened to be jewish claimed that the 'biggest anti-semites' were the Armenians who hated jews. On contrarary the friendliest people were the Turkmenistanis :D ....
Who Said it, it is just BS, all the non-white non-russians in Russia have a kind of bondong because we have a common feature we are all hated by the Russians equally, A poster I saw a couple of days ago just showed it on the poster there was a cry for Putin to protect the Russian people from 3 enemies, the Yid was there with all his glory, the Hachik (A bad word to describe a man of the Caucass) and the African.
...
I am sure you guys are capable of that too. Losers...
Yes we bad, Now try denying what's happening in the all male Turkish saunas...
KettleWhistle
09-24-2004, 12:58 PM
Yes we bad, Now try denying what's happening in the all male Turkish saunas...
Here's one theory I've read about that:
"The segregation of the sexes is not necessarily an evil provided that it is done for reasons of morality, and not (as I am forced to assume) for reasons of heightening the pleasure of the opium-maddened Turk in his steamy seraglio, denied the pleasure of the sight of the female form in the town square, expending his vitals all at once in a premature and forbidden way at the glimpse of the calf of one of his forty silk-veiled wives. "
Read the whole thing at http://johnmurraypenfold.20m.com/terrorism.htm
Time will only tell how honest is the turkish Israeli relationship. You can patch all you want to keep the beast calm and friendly, after all those two Synagogues weren’t blown in an Arab country they were blown in turkey. As “demirturk” puts it properly .... “If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of them”. We can only assume Jews are uprising in turkey and they might be next.
Time will only tell how honest is the turkish Israeli relationship. You can patch all you want to keep the beast calm and friendly, after all those two Synagogues weren’t blown in an Arab country they were blown in turkey. As “demirturk” puts it properly .... “If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of them”. We can only assume Jews are uprising in turkey and they might be next.
Seems like you heard nothing about the event, except that such a thing happened.
takeo
09-29-2004, 05:18 PM
Who Said it, it is just BS, all the non-white non-russians in Russia have a kind of bondong because we have a common feature we are all hated by the Russians equally, A poster I saw a couple of days ago just showed it on the poster there was a cry for Putin to protect the Russian people from 3 enemies, the Yid was there with all his glory, the Hachik (A bad word to describe a man of the Caucass) and the African.
I have very different experiences in Russia, we went there with an African girlfriend as well, never got so much attention and care. It is very hard to distinguish Jews and "real" Russians, only the name indicates the difference. The Russians and Georgians are only slightly different, they're brothers, Armenians are different but they are not hated in Russia, but Tatars (including Azerbaidjani's and central-Asians) and muslims in general (especially from the eastern caucasus) sometimes are.
KettleWhistle
09-29-2004, 07:05 PM
The Russians and Georgians are only slightly different, they're brothers, Armenians are different but they are not hated in Russia.Rrrrrrrrrrrrright...
BTW, takeo, this wouldn't be you and your girlfriend?
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/8924/12193.jpg
I got an email from somebody claiming to be your friend, and offering this visual. I figured we could all appreciate it.
takeo
09-30-2004, 06:02 PM
hahaha i would know what to do in this circumstances (altough she's not very exiting, black is not always beautiful)!
No it isn't my girlfriend she's Cuban and the wife of my best friend (French entirely) who went with me to Russia the last time I was there I'm more fund of Asian looking girls, I'm more "SMALLminded" in this kind of things...
anyhow be aware of Turkish sauna's indeed... I wouldn't recommend it unless you like it the other way and are very "openminded"... in Russian banyas it is not so common I guess (which are sometimes just a cover-up for (heterosexual) prostitution)
btw I think the Armenian genocide is perhaps a direct result of Armenian support for Russian expansionism, but does this in any possible way legitimise this genocide or make it any better than the Shoah? this kind of logics is comparable to "yes the jews suffered because of the nazi's but it's their own fault they're just a bunch of bolcheviks/antichrists/capitalists/parasits/natural ennemies of European civilisation or whatever".
Armenian deportation is a direct result of Armenian terror on civil population in Eastern Anatolia. By this, that their aim was to support Russia or that to de-Turkify the region or that to build their own state in those lands or these all combined together would be indirect factors, on their side.
Emunah
10-08-2004, 12:46 PM
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.It is just a diffrent approach, for the past few decades Turkey has been a member of the middle east and in the middle east we are proud of our blood thirst, we brag about our make our mass murders presidents, brag about our massacres and feel pretty good about it (yes including the ME country Israel) but now Turkey wants to change friends and become part of the Europe and in Europe they have a different approach is not like they are not persicuting the minorities and sometimes kill off some of them, but they just keep realy quiet about it, You don't hear England and France realy denounce their colonial past they just don't mention it anymore, the only exception is Germany but that mainly because their Genocide is so horrible and unhuman, So Turkey gotta chose stay with the Middle Easterners and live a quiet (although bloody) and shameless living or to join the western hypocricy, the choise is theirs.
First of all you are either misunderstanding or trying to twist the thing.
Killing is something else and genocide is another.
Genocide is a judicial term that was described 1948 by the UN, which has some conditions to be count to be committed. Now you say that one day suddenly you woke up and learnt that it wasn't so right to kill the American Natives and after that day it felt so honest. Fine, but did the USA declared that she committed a genocide? What about the other natives all over in Northern and Southern Americas? and Oceanicia? Northern Africa? Russia? China? There are islands in the Aegean Sea where all Turkish population got lost in one night during Greek Revolt. Algerians claim to lose 2 million civilians during their independence struggle from France, China tried mass destruction weapons on Uighur minority. There are still genetically handicapped births in Vietnam, because of illegally used Napalm by the USA.
The terms such as terrorist, minority, self-determination, minority rights, genocide are perceived rather as political tools by the world rather than global facts.
So some French parliementers can sit and decide if there was a genocide or not, eh? So if the jewish lobby in the US congress support Turkey against Armenian and Greek ones then there is no genocide but if the regional and international circumstances change and so their idea too, then suddenly a genocide appears 90 years ago!
There are serious historians refuting the so-called Armenian genocide, thats not a myth or something of Turkey. But the thing is today, Armenian opportunism of demanding something from Turkey matches with some others political agendas.
Then, stop trying to bring the case to the "muslims and others" rhetoric. This is not a "muslims and others" thing, not a "turks and armenians" thing, this is a discussion between individiuals, so if you have objection, let it be on my remarks, not on "the cultural mindset of muslims" or something like that.
Afterall that Turkish government you are talking about is a few times more democratic, more tolerant and more peacefull than Armenia.
Then the other thing, if it was a myth or whatever:
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."
Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)
"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."
Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."
Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."
Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
takeo
10-09-2004, 05:18 PM
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.
of course, but there is some progress
Georgia (I mean georgia tbilissi right?) isn't exactly an example either...
Justcurious
10-10-2004, 01:26 AM
Armenian genocide? Well almost. Last night Finland's football team beat Armenia 3-1. Not quite a genocide, but comfortable. Israel's 2-2 draw against Switzerland was quite expected, wasn't it?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/section?id=worldcup&cc=5739
Armenian genocide? Well almost. Last night Finland's football team beat Armenia 3-1. Not quite a genocide, but comfortable. Israel's 2-2 draw against Switzerland was quite expected, wasn't it?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/section?id=worldcup&cc=5739
Well I expected Israel to screw up and lose but they surprised and almost won the game, so I'm satisfied with the result.
TETurkhan
10-28-2004, 03:03 AM
Time will only tell how honest is the Turkish Israeli relationship
The Turks and Jews have gotten along for centuries. Sure there have been moments in our history where relations have been strained however that is to be expected. Today Israel and Turkey are close allies regardless of the current government in Ankara playing politics. They are really only trying to score points with the EU by criticizing Israelis policies against the Palestinians – simple as that.
Put aside the history there is the simple fact that Turkey and Israel need each other – the alliance between them makes strategic sense.
CanDo
11-17-2004, 02:14 PM
Now you say that one day suddenly you woke up and learnt that it wasn't so right to kill the American Natives and after that day it felt so honest.
A noble, democracy, like the US or Israel, owns up to past mistakes, and tries to make amends. A dishonorable, backward country like Turkey lies about it's past and it's mistakes.
Only honorable, decent Turks will admit to the horrible genocide, committed against the peaceful, unarmed Armenians, by the Turks between 1914 and 1918. All others, including yourself, will continue to live in lies and deceit.
Turkey's Dark Past
By Gamaliel Isaac
FrontPageMagazine.com
November 22, 2004
"The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after "such and such a massacre." Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times-groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic)...
The burning of the Greek city of Smyrna and the massacre and scattering of its three hundred thousand Christian inhabitants is one of the most poignant - if not, after the vast outrages of the 20th century, the bloodiest - crimes in all history. It marked the end of the Greek community in Asia Minor. On the eve of its destruction, Smyrna was a bustling port and commercial center. It was a genuinely civilized, in the old-world sense, place. An American consul-general later remembered a busy social life that included teas, dances, musical afternoons, games of tennis and bridge, and soirees given in the salons of the highly cultured Armenian and Greek bourgeoisie.
Sic gloria transit: sporadic killings of Christians, mostly Armenians, started as soon as the Turks overran it on September 9, 1922. Within days, they escalated to mass slaughter. It did not "get out of hand," however, in the sense of an uncontrolled chaos perpetrated by an uncommanded military rabble. The Turkish military authorities deliberately escalated it. The Greek Orthodox Bishop Chrysostomos remained with his flock. "It is the tradition of the Greek Church and the duty of the priest to stay with his congregation," he replied to those begging him to flee. The Moslem mob fell upon him, uprooted his eyes and, as he was bleeding, dragged him by his beard through the streets of the Turkish quarter, beating and kicking him. Every now and then, when he had the strength to do so, he would raise his right hand and blessed his persecutors. A Turk got so furious at this gesture that he cut off his hand with his sword. He fell to the ground, and was hacked to pieces by the angry mob. The carnage culminated in the burning of Smyrna, which started on September 13 when the Turks put the Armenian quarter to torch and the conflagration engulfed the city. The remaining inhabitants were trapped at the seafront, from which there was no escaping the flames on one side, or Turkish bayonets on the other. This was the end of Christianity in Asia Minor, whose history goes back to events recorded in the New Testament itself."
Marjorie Housepian in her book The Smyrna Affair, quoted a missionary eyewitness who said the Turkish Muslims actually enjoyed massacring the Armenian Christians. He said:
"The slaughter of the Armenians was a joy to the Turks, a massacre was heralded by the blowing of trumpets and concluded by a procession. Accompanied by the prayers of the mullahs and muezzins, who from the minarets implored the blessings of Allah, the slaughter was accomplished in admirable order according to a well arranged plan. The crowd, supplied with arms by the authorities, joined most amicably with the soldiers and the Kurdish Hamidieh on these festive occasions. The Turkish women stimulated their heroes by raising a gutteral shriek of their war cry, the Zilghit, and deafening the hopeless despair of their victims by singing their nuptial songs. A kind of wild cannibal humour seized the crowd...the savage crew did not even spare the children."
The Turks have committed atrocities against other minorities as well, The Tower of skulls of Chele Kula shown below, is a monument to the Turkish savagery against the Serbs in the early 1800s
Lest we think "Well that was ancient history", as recently as 1974 Turkey invaded Cyprus. Just as the Romans renamed Israel, Palestine in order to erase the memory of the Jewish State, the Turks have renamed all the cities and towns in Cyprus. They have also destroyed concrete evidence of the Christian and Greek history of the area of Cyprus under their control. According to an article in the Guardian ('The Rape of northern Cyprus', 5.6.1976)
Cypriots who oppose the Turks are treated severely; in 1996 the Greek Cypriot demonstrator, Anastasios (Tasos) Isaak, was beaten to death by the Turkish occupation forces. According to the Greek Cypriot Magazine Selides. August, 1996, one thousand six hundred and nineteen Greek Cypriots and Greeks who were taken as prisoners of war during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus are still missing.
The Turkish Heritage of Anti-Semitism
"Like their Christian fellow subjects, the Jews were inferior citizens in the Muslim-Ottoman state which was based on the principle of Muslim superiority. They were regarded as state protégés (dhimmis) and had to pay a special poll tax (jizya) for that protection and as a sign of their inferior status. Their testimony was not accepted in the courts of justice, and in cases of the murder of a Jew or Christian by a Muslim, the latter was usually not condemned to death. In addition, Jews as well as Christians were normally not acceptable for appointments to the highest administrative posts; they were forbidden to carry arms (thus, to serve in the army), to ride horses in towns or to wear Muslim dress. They were also not usually allowed to build or repair places of worship and were often subjected to oppression, extortion and violence by both the local authorities and the Muslim population."
Professor Tudor Parfitt in his comprehensive study of the Jews of Palestine during the 19th century wrote about the Turkish oppression of the Jews of Palestine as follows:
"…Inside the towns, Jews and other dhimmis were frequently attacked, wounded, and even killed by local Muslims and Turkish soldiers. Such attacks were frequently for trivial reasons: Wilson [in British Foreign Office correspondence] recalled having met a Jew who had been badly wounded by a Turkish soldier for not having instantly dismounted when ordered to give up his donkey to a soldier of the Sultan. Many Jews were killed for less. On occasion the authorities attempted to get some form of redress but this was by no means always the case: the Turkish authorities themselves were sometimes responsible for beating Jews to death for some unproven charge. After one such occasion [British Consul] Young remarked: ‘I must say I am sorry and surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part- for certainly what I have seen of him I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity- but it was a Jew- without friends or protection- it serves to show well that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life’."
During World War I in Palestine, the embattled Young Turk government actually began deporting the Jews of Tel Aviv in the spring of 1917 - an ominous parallel to the genocidal deportations of the Armenian dhimmi communities throughout Anatolia. A Reuters press release regarding the deportation states that:
" on April 1 [1917] an order was given to deport all the Jews from Tel Aviv, including citizens of the Central Powers, within forty-eight hours. A week before, three hundred Jews were expelled from Jerusalem: Jamal Pasha [one of the triumvirate of Young Turk supreme leaders, Minister of the Navy, and commander of the Fourth Army in the Levant] declared that their fate would be that of the Armenians; eight thousand deportees from Tel Aviv were not allowed to take any provisions with them, and after the expulsion their houses were looted by Bedouin mobs; two Yemenite Jews who tried to oppose the looting were hung at the entrance to Tel Aviv so that all might see, and other Jews were found dead in the Dunes around Tel Aviv."
It was not clear why the slaughter did not occur. One hypothesis put forth by the British Zionist movement suggested that the advance of the British army (from immediately adjacent Egypt) and its potential willingness "..to hold the military and Turkish authorities directly responsible for a policy of slaughter and destruction of the Jews" may have averted this disaster.
Turkish hostility to the Jews during World War II led them to refuse to allow Jews to flee Hitler into Turkey. In one instance 769 Jews packed an old, dilapidated cattle boat called the Struma and made it to the shores of Turkey. The Turks denied them entry and eventually towed them out to sea where they sank.
In its jealousy of American power and determination to create a counter-power, France, with support from Germany, has looked to ally itself with Islamic countries in order to help create that counterweight to the United States. On October 26, 2004, France and Germany stood behind Turkey’s campaign to join the European Union. Admitting the Turkish Trojan Horse may give them the power to counter the United States but the price they will pay will be further subjugation to a growing hostile European Muslim population.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16059
TETurkhan
12-06-2004, 11:30 AM
You have meticulously only selected tidbits from history that support your viewpoint. It is widely accepted that the Ottoman Empire was remarkably tolerant to its minorities for its time. Certainly incidents did happen contrary to this, but nowhere near your exaggerated claims.
Keep in mind that the Ottomans were the last of the Mediterranean Imperial Powers. All of Europe feared them for centuries, and they were known as invincible. Martin Luther once even said that the Turks were sent by God to punish Christians for going astray. All this lent itself to the image of the ‘Terrible Turk’, “a brute, tyrannical person”. By the way what I included in quotation marks was taken from an encyclopedia defining a Turk – the only race in the world which is given characteristics as such. This dehumanizing, racism and hatred of the Turks still exists today.
Many of the people the Ottomans use to rule base their national identity on the hatred of the Turks. Serbians, Greeks, Arabs, Armenians all have a deep resentment towards their former overlords, the Turks. Many of them never have accepted that the Turks are there in Anatolia to stay. Many of them still have territorial ambitions and would love to see Turkey broken along the lines mandated by the Treaty of Sevres.
As for relations between the Turkey and Israel – I believe it will continue as it has done for centuries. Most encounters between the two people through out history, like Khazar Turks intermingling with the Jews north of the Black Sea, or Sephardic Jews finding refuge in the Ottoman Turkish Empire when fleeing the Spanish Inquisition. You cannot just wipe that history or forget it overnight, not to mention that the cooperation of the two states simply makes strategic sense.
israelian
02-21-2005, 05:23 PM
Hello, since reading these quotes I have asked a friend of mine who does research in armenian genocide issues to review these publications and this is what he sent back to me, I thought it was interesting... I am directly copypasting from his email.
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
[I]Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.
This quote is a forgery, first of all there is a grammar mistake in the title of this supposed work that won't passes as incognito for editors “stationed” in London. Skeptical but still open minded enough, over a year ago, I placed an inter loaning order to find the book, the book is nowhere to be found around all the libraries around the world affiliated with the inter loaning program. Surprising enough, even those libraries in Turkey that are included in the system have no copy of the work in question.
The books existance has been fabricated in the newsgroups in 90s, not a single copy seems to exist... even from the Londons largest library.
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
[I]A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.
Isn't it quite amusing to find out here again the famous Lalayan quote? More amusing is the fact that many different flavors of this quote were all around the web, like “Muslim” being changed by the words Turks and Azeris. What about the quote in question, not from Richard Hovannesians work,(not to say that some other sites claims that it comes from the work “Patriotism Perverted”) but rather the original Revolutsionniy Vostok ? An inter loaning order gave no results. Not finding the original, I restrained myself using the second source referring to it.
Has this quote anything to do with the Ottoman Empire and 1915-1917, where most of the genocide happened? No!!! Actually, this quotes come from a said Lalayan, whose identity seems not existing in any other records, whom was allegedly a close friend of Shaumian.
Interesting of course. Whom was Shaumian??? He was a traitor to the Armenian nation whom comploted with the Soviets to get Armenia “bolshevised,” he was like Lalayan, his alleged closest friend under the command of the Red Army, against the Armenians. No wonder that “Revolutsionniy Vostok” is nowhere to be found, it is a Bolshevic material, the sort of periodical quite common during those years covering the heros of the Red Army. Actually he sound to be a Soviet Hero more than anything else... and even the date of the alleged material, it is claimed that he was a Dashnak. Let see if this has any sense at all. The date of the material? Late 1918, at that time already over a million Armenians died in the genocide, so this material won't justify what has been already done. Is it possible that in the Middle of the Russian Revolution, started in 1917, a communist Armenian be a Dashnak, being a close friend of a traitor that was one of the leading figures of the Bolshevisation in that region; be a Dashnak himself? NOPE!!! And what is the region in question? Nachikevan, and this in late 1918, and NOT!!! The Ottoman.
Have anyone any idea of the Armenian population of Nachikevan? Take a map of the world, find Armenia, and see where Nachikevan is... as you know, it is now a part of Azerbaijan. Has it any natural border with Azerbaijan? NO!!! It is between Turkey and Armenia. It was part of historic Armenia, while Armenians were one of the most populous population there, there is no reported Armenian living there as of now. Where are they? Do you know why Nachikevan that has no border with Azerbaijan, is part of it?
Ataturks companion of arm Karabekir, considered in Turkey as a national hero, with General Halil, whom wrote in his own memoirs having butchered 300,000 Armenians with his men, were sent there butchering the Armenians and comploted with the Bolchevics to get Nachikevan and Karabagh, and other Armenian regions to be separated from Armenia, to be sure that never ever an Armenia will have the possibility to exist. Karabekir himself wrote in his memoirs when planning to do this: “Armenia, destroy for eternity.”
And now, you have mete quoting a Bolshevic trash, that its sources is not found, and even if found, will end up being a blade with two cutting edges.
israelian
02-21-2005, 05:27 PM
[quote]"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."
[I]Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)
This quote is a pure fabrication and does not exist, it is a known fabrication of Serdar Argic, the legendary newsgroup spammer and forger.
"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
[I]Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)
First of all, Darounians version of the work is not the Original Armenian language published Katchadounis Manifesto, not only are they not the same, but the first 7-8 pages are supposed to be Verbatims, and are not concordant with the original manifesto. And the mistakes are obvious.
First, let me explain you why, Erzerum was part of Ottoman, the decision taken during the Erzeroum Congree by the General Committee, was for the Ottoman Armenians, whom lived in the Ottoman soil. It is impossible for Katchadouni to have actually written something like this, because he was well aware of the fact that there was two Armenia, Russian Armenia and Ottoman Armenia, the Dashnak committee living in the Ottoman represented Ottoman Armenia, Armenians in Trans Caucasia were Russian Armenians under the Russian commands. Furthermore, had the Ottoman not exposed its intention soon during the war, with their plan of an Armenian province consisting of Ottoman AND Russian Armenia; the Russian Armenians would have never organized in the Caucasian front to prevent an Ottoman incursion. Read the official letter found in Uras files collections, from the Press Organ of the Dashnaktiutun, and it will confirm this fact.
In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto, and no wonder that all the materials that denialist sources were able to use, are all in the first pages that are called Verbatim and where the differences between the original are the most important.
Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.
And I would as well want to remind that Katachdouni was one of the leading figures of the Alexandripole Investigations, if you knew what this is, you'll know why Darounians version of the original was far from being accurate.
Beside that, Katachdouni was under Soviet comments charged to justify the Societisation of Armenia and propagaise about a so-called inability from Armenian political movements to govern an independent Armenia.
In conclusion, Darounians version is not the original Manifesto, but rather a propaganda tool, one of those used mutually by two Armenian camps in the 30s to 50s.(read about the whole affair leading to the Montreux Convention and its conclusion.)
israelian
02-21-2005, 05:29 PM
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
[I]Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
This quote does not exist, neither in the first volume, neither in the second, of the aforementioned work. No only does it not exist on page 85 of those two volumes, but it doesn't exist anywhere in those two books. Another example of falsification.
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."
[I]Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
Interviews such is this of said witnesses popping up after 60 years, can hardly be presented as evidences. First of all, whom is to confirm that he is an Armenian having been converted to Islam. Anyone can come up with such stories that in no way can be confirmed. Where are the Armenians living in Zeve, there is not a single Armenian left there. If Armenians were the aggressors, how come in all the region where it is said by people of your ilk that Armenians were the aggressors there are not a single Armenian presence recorded. All GONE!!!
There is no such thing as an Armenian Turk; ethnicity is a social construct, once an Armenian assimilate he become a Turk, as much as a Turk as any other Turk. There is no way to confirm this “witness” story, and more to this, he himself admit not having seen anything having been done.
There was many Armenians living in Zeve, they all disappeared, in fact, nearly none of the Armenians from Zeve survived, they were all burned in Mass. (The same ways as the other mass burnings witnessed and written by the Jewish intellectuals forming the Nili group)
Firstly, this man came there and seen bodies, burning bodies etc. he claims Armenians told him this later, but there was ZERO Armenian left in Zeve, they could not have said anything. The same goes with Carpanak, all the Armenians from this Island, ALL were butchered, burned, drawn etc.
And finally, whom is to tell that this man is really an Armenian that has converted to Islam?
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."
[I]Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
“Men are like that” is not the memoirs of Ohanus Appressian, it is a novel, a story written by Leonard Ramsden Hartill, Ohanus is a said native of the region whom didn't know English, and Leonard didn't know Armenian... , most of the work has been written with Apressians pantonimes talks as Leonard say, and the rest is fiction to write a Novel. Beside that, the quote you refer, the word “Turks” is not contained, but rather the work Tartar, and has nothing to do with 1915, it is meant to be a story about ethnocultural conflicts between the tartars and the Armenians in the Russian Empire, and as well, a Bolshevic propaganda.
Let repeat and clarify; Men are like that, is not a memoir, but a Novel written by someone that wrote a good part of the work when he didn't knew, neither Armenian, neither Russian, or any other languages to communicate with Ohannus.(the author tell this himself in the preface of the book) The work is the story of a man(Ohannus), and most of the events related are about his village, during the Tartar-Armenian conflicts from 1904-1906, and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Ottoman Armenians and what happened in 1915. And in the same book, there are many sentences about crimes perpetrated by the Tartars against the Armenians, and the author by the intermediary of his character call it an attempt of extermination from both side. The village in question is now a part of Azerbaijan(Ohannus village), and there are no Armenian living there, they have been killed and pushed out. The goal of this work is to change American public opinion after the Bolshevisation of Armenia. The Americans were hardly accepting that the U.S decided to get out from there without respecting treaties to secure Armenia.
It is a matter of fact, that denialists like you, not having much materials to support your unsupportable theses, rely on falsification and manipulation.
israelian
02-21-2005, 05:34 PM
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
[I]Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
Not only this quote does not exist, but there was even no Gochnak issue published in May 24, 1915, the only issue published in May that was saying anything relevant about Van was published in May 15,(1915) and was about the Turkish attacks in Van, and the Turkish invasion of the Persian Province of Salemaste, and Armenians being targeted there.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
[I]Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
This quote is irrelevant, what an American Armenian, a French Armenian a Russian Armenian do has nothing to do with an Ottoman Armenian. Many Jews served in the allied power in WWII, more so than Armenians having served for the allies in WWI, this doesn't justify the barbarity of NAZI Germany, and the way concentration camps were transformed into killing machines. Here all the question revolve around the Ottoman Armenians whom were killed in mass.
Let repeat and clarify here too; Irrelevant. The genocide was perpetrated against the Ottoman Armenians first, what Russian Armenians have done, or what Armenians elsewhere in the world have do is completely irrelevant. An American Armenian may have served for the U.S, a British Armenian for the British, a French Armenian for France, a Russian Armenian for Russia etc. this in no way change the fact that the Ottoman did carry a plan to exterminate the Ottoman Armenians. That the Soviet Jews have served for the Soviet Union, or Jews that have served in the French resistance, or in the allied armies, don't change a yotta of the fact that the Reichist administration after the Soviet Winter defeat have decided to transform the concentration camps into killing factories.
If Mete find anything wrong about this, then he should maybe sue the Jews serving for the allies that participated in the liberation of the Buchenwald.
Beside that, Armenian unites were as rare as Yishuv “type” Jewish unites in WWII.
israelian
02-21-2005, 05:35 PM
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
Do you even know the butcher General Odesilitze was? Shall I quote from the report prepared in the Ottomans third Army Commander in an affidavit he prepared, where he investigated the corps all around Erzeroum of Armenians being butchered in mass, burned etc.?
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
[I]F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"
If McCarthy bothered to search whom Kazemzadeh really was, he would never have dared using him to support his claim. But I'm sure he knew, he expected the general reader to be ignorants so that he could sell his lies, just like he did in his chapter where he claimed Armenians having started everything in Van, and as footnote presented Nogales and Ushers works, when those two books shows the entire opposite of what he claims, no wonder he didn't bothered presenting any pages where to check. But I guess he corrected himself, when in his newest book about the Turks, he did not footnote his claims, since he knows most of his research are biased. Must have something to do with the ARIT and ITS grants he receives from Ankara.
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
[I]Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
What a quote of 1997 has anything to do with what happened in 1915? And how the words of some guy has anythings to do with the Armenians as an all? TThis is a typical denialist attitude towards things.
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
[I]Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
First of all, it is Kaprielian, second of all, this quote does not exist, it is said in some denialist sites that it comes from “Patriotism Perverted,” but is NOT in the work.
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
[I]G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
It takes guts to post the words of Bronsart in an Israeli site.
1921? But by then, the genocide was piratically completed, what has the offensives in the Russian Front anything to do with what happened in 1915?
And from when the words of Envers German Chief of Staff should be taken seriously? Beside that, he was recalled for Germany in 1918 and was in no position to know anything about what was happening, but rather was a denialist in Talaats camp during the Tehlirian trial. His claims have been contradicted by the rest of the German stuff stationed in the Ottoman. It wasn't for nothing that Enver has chosen him as the Chief of Stuff.
"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."
[I]Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
I am again amused to see that Morganthau is credible when he writes something you like, but not so, when it is else. Why not quoting what he says else, would you?
"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
[I]Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
What this material of 1894 has anything to do with 1915? Explain please.
Mete has referred to a website named :tallarmeniantale. I have exchanged with the author of the website and exposed his uses of fabricated materials, forgeries, manipulation etc. I have answered to him with over a hundred pages of material.
And to add, since it is an Israeli forum, the Armenian genocide is very well documented in the Newish Nili group records.
Here, just few references.
Jewish intelligence operative, Absalom Feinberg, who served as liason for the Jewish espionage Unite Nili.
" I have no more teeth left to gnash. Who is going to be the next victim ? On my way to Jerusalem, I have traversed my country on this holiest earth, and I keep asking myself if we are living in the year 1915, or in the times of Titus or Nebuchadnezzar. I, as a Jew, have forgotten that I was Jewish (and it is very difficult to be oblivious to this 'privilege'), and I have asked myself if I had the right to cry solely over the Sorrows of my nation, and if Jeremiah would not have shed tears over the Armenians also ... while a few Turkish hyenas boast of the charnel-house they have created ... Alas ! The The torment of being impotent and without arms. "
Report in E. Robsinson, "The Armenians" (London: Frederick, 1918), p. 4 and Private Archive of the Aaronsohn familym Beth Aaronsohn, Zichron Yaakov, Israel.
Sarah, Sister of Aaron, part of the Nili group,
" How terrible the Turks are ! If we don't succeed in getting free from them in time, they are quite capable of doing to us what they did to the Armenians. Will the Jews be next ?"
Another one from her.
"... the bodies of hundreds of Armenian men, women and children lying on both sides of the railway. Sometimes Turkish women were seen searching the corpses for anything that might be of value; at other times dogs were observed feeding on bodies. There were hundreds of bleched skeletons. At either Gulek or Osmanieh [on the Baghdad Railway] saw thousands of starving and fever-stricken Armenians ... They were lying about the station, on the sidings, and some on the track itself. Some were jostled on the line when the train arrived, and the engine ran over them to the joy of the engine driver, who shouted to his friends, ' Did you see how I smashed about fifty of these Armenian swine ?' [I] fainted at the sight, and on recovery two Turkish officers, speaking French, remonstrated with [me] on [my] lack of patriotism since the Armenians were enemies."
FO 371/2781/253852, Appendix A, p.9, 13 December 1915, R.W. Rown, "The Story of the Secret Service" (New York: Literary Guild, 1937) or also in I. Cown and I. Gunther, "A Spy for Freedom: The story of Sarah Aaronsohn" (New York: Dutton, 1984), L.Y. Schneerson, "Diary of a Man of Nili (Haifa: Renaissance, 1967), in Hebrew.
Eitan Belkind 1887 - 1979, "the son of early pioneering founders of Rishon Lezion went to Constantinople on his own initiative at the age of fifteen, to study at the military high school. When the war broke out he was conscripted into the Turkish army as an officer and assigned to the headquarters of Jamal Pasha."
"The Circassian soldiers ordered the Armenians to gather thorns and thistles to pile them into a tall pyramid; afterward they tied all of the Armenians who were there, almost five thousand souls, hand in hand, encircled them like a ring around the pile of thistles and thorns and set it afire in a blaze which rose up to the heavens together with the screams of the wretched people who were burned to death by the fire. I fled from the place, because I could not stand to see this horrifying sight..."
The flame of Nili, pp. 111 -15
Harry
02-22-2005, 04:54 AM
[QUOTE=mete]
This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.
This quote is a pure fabrication and does not exist, it is a known fabrication of Serdar Argic, the legendary newsgroup spammer and forger.
First of all, Darounians version of the work is not the Original Armenian language published Katchadounis Manifesto, not only are they not the same, but the first 7-8 pages are supposed to be Verbatims, and are not concordant with the original manifesto. And the mistakes are obvious.
First, let me explain you why, Erzerum was part of Ottoman, the decision taken during the Erzeroum Congree by the General Committee, was for the Ottoman Armenians, whom lived in the Ottoman soil. It is impossible for Katchadouni to have actually written something like this, because he was well aware of the fact that there was two Armenia, Russian Armenia and Ottoman Armenia, the Dashnak committee living in the Ottoman represented Ottoman Armenia, Armenians in Trans Caucasia were Russian Armenians under the Russian commands. Furthermore, had the Ottoman not exposed its intention soon during the war, with their plan of an Armenian province consisting of Ottoman AND Russian Armenia; the Russian Armenians would have never organized in the Caucasian front to prevent an Ottoman incursion. Read the official letter found in Uras files collections, from the Press Organ of the Dashnaktiutun, and it will confirm this fact.
In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto, and no wonder that all the materials that denialist sources were able to use, are all in the first pages that are called Verbatim and where the differences between the original are the most important.
Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.
And I would as well want to remind that Katachdouni was one of the leading figures of the Alexandripole Investigations, if you knew what this is, you'll know why Darounians version of the original was far from being accurate.
Beside that, Katachdouni was under Soviet comments charged to justify the Societisation of Armenia and propagaise about a so-called inability from Armenian political movements to govern an independent Armenia.
In conclusion, Darounians version is not the original Manifesto, but rather a propaganda tool, one of those used mutually by two Armenian camps in the 30s to 50s.(read about the whole affair leading to the Montreux Convention and its conclusion.)
:cool:
Tatar
03-18-2005, 11:58 PM
when both sides claim that the documents copied, perhaps al