View Full Version : Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?
Evgeni
06-13-2002, 12:22 PM
Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?
alexbmn
06-13-2002, 12:23 PM
chto?
Pushtak18
06-13-2002, 08:17 PM
Many Armenians get the picture that Israel does not recognize the Genocide that occured in the begning of the 20th century, but thats not true.
In Israel, and especially in Universitys and lecture halls there are many intellectuals from professors to hisorians who do recognize that there was a massacre.
I think that Israel got the bad reputation because of two things;
1) Israel and its ties with Turkey
2) Jewish professors like Professor Lewis, whom was in hot water a couple of years back regarding the Armenian genocide.
But overall, Armenians and jews are not the best of friends. Not many do know that Armenian jews were also victims of the Genocide.
danholo
10-06-2002, 02:46 AM
Anti-Armenian speeches?
Miriam
10-06-2002, 04:48 AM
The unfortunate fact is that AFAIK both Israel and some prominent Jewish US politicians have been handling the situation rather clumsily. Turkey is due to its unique position in an important strategic partner both to the US and Israel, and some politicians were apparently just too eager to please it and overlook some of its darker political corners. Armenian history is no less painful than the Jewish one, and I can well understand the sensitivities. The relations with both countries should be handled with greatest care. All the more, b/c in the fmr. USSR Armenia has been just about the only place where antisemitism on personal level (as opposed to government policies) was virtually non-existant.
takeo
10-09-2002, 04:52 PM
Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered. They don't want to aknowledge that unfortunately genocide has not only cursed the Jewish community. Of course the good relations with Turkey are certainly one of the causes too.
Armenians are not anti-semitic, and one of the most famous Armenian families, Aznavour (Aznavurian), both famous in France and Turkey, is Jewish. And in the former Soviet-Union (as well as in Romania), Jews and Armenians got along very well, even inside the CPSU and even in the Russian federation.
armenians do fight Muslims as well, but they don't identify with Israel, in fact i often heard the other way round. armenians described the armenian population in Nagorno karabakh as treatened by Azeri nationalism, and i often hear from people of armenian origin "we don't want to become like the palestinians, we will not become second-class citizens in our own historical country". On the Western front however most Armenians have accepted the fact that they will never be able to return to Eastern Turkey.
From what I know of the Armenian genocide, it was indeed a horrible crime. It does not seem to have had the systematic, inexorable quality of the Nazi Holocaust though, which does not in any way excuse or mitigate the harm done. The only reason I can think of that this crime is not widely talked about is the importance of Turkey diplomatically and politically. Armenia finds itself in the same bind as Israel - its good graces are less important to the powers-that-be than those of its adversaries. Hence, the unequal and unfair treatment they receive from the international community.
Actually, from what I remember, the Armenians used to identify themselves with Jews quite a bit in Russia. They used to recount all the similarities between our peoples that exist on the collective level. I haven't heard of much antisemitism from Armenians either, and certainly never experienced it from any of the Armenians my family has known - of which there were many.
In addition, their food is awesome (especially the churchhella - walnuts strung on a string and covered with dried grape juice! Yum! :) Stupid comment, I know :( )
takeo
10-09-2002, 05:11 PM
I love armenian and Georgian cuisine too, unfortunately you have to travel to Armenia or Russia to taste the real armenian kitchen :(
L@mplighterM
10-09-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by takeo
Perhaps some Jews see the Holocaust as something unique, something that only the Jewish people have suffered.
Some Frenchmen refer to the holocaust as a little detail in history. Is that how it goes?
Snip:
VIEWS AGAINST GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS
a. Is 24 April 1915 the day of genocide?
24 April 1915 is the day, in which the Ottoman government began to arrest the suspects of Armenian terrorism, violence and treachery. The declaration 24 April as the genocide date is as fictitious as the genocide allegations. On 24 April 1915, the Armenian Committee centers were closed, their documents were confiscated, and the leaders were arrested. The government by sending instructions to 14 cities has tried to prevent the events. 37 Following this instruction 2.345 people were arrested. If there had been a genocide occurred than the government would have arrested the entire Armenian population in Istanbul. This number was 82.880. 38 The Armenians exploits this date because the leaders of the revolutionists were arrested on this date.
b. Are the words of "sending" and "settling" carrying any implication of genocide?
Although some of the Armenian leaders have arrested and the Armenian Committee's were closed, the violent events had increased. The events that began in the big cities spread to the smaller towns and the security forces failed to maintain peace. The security forces were sending messages to the city centers and offering resettlement of the Armenian habitants. 39
Relocation was not implemented by loading the Armenians to ships or trains and deporting them out of the Turkish borders. This was a measurement to maintain the wholeness of the Empire that was loosing her lands. Despite all the negative factors, the Ottoman administrators executed the law with calmness. The essences, which will be obeyed during the immigration, were regulated by instructions. In these instructions every detail about the safety of the immigrants was revealed. One of them is given in Document 7, "the Regulation on Administration of Armenian properties and immovable properties, in the event of a necessary resettlement in wartime." The third and the fifth articles of the regulation on abandoned Armenian properties reveal benevolence of the government. Article 3: The type, quantity, and value of the property, the names of the owners will bee recorded and they will be sent to the places that would be used a depot such as schools, churches or houses, all the properties would be stored and a copy of the record would be given to the Commission of Abandoned Properties...
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3752
Whatever happened to the Armenians doesn?t even come close to what fate the Jews in Europe suffered at the hands of the Nazis.
How can you even speculate what some Jews may or may not see?
Were the Armenians involved in terrorism against the Turkish government or not?
takeo
10-10-2002, 03:59 AM
It doesn't really surprise me that you support Turkish fascism.
yes some french referred to the Holocaust as a detail of WWII-history, surprisingly enough it is your good friend Le Pen, who is hated by the majority of French but apparently loved in ultra-zionist circles for his anti-arab racism.
you can't compare genocides, there is no "better genocide", and there is certainly no justification for the murder on 100's of 1000's of people, and there are sufficient resources prooving the genocide against the Armenian people. You're a negationist.
I've noticed that, as usual, you use a very unbiased source...
the Armenians in Istanbul were not affected, that's right, but the whole of North-Eastern Turkey was etnically cleansed, and many families ended in the Syrian desert. People who support the etnic cleansing of the Palestinian people will not object to the Armenian genocide either, the site you mentioned seems to suggest that Armenians shouldn't have opposed Turkish government, this is also the most popular argument for supporting the etnic cleansing of Palestinians. Yes, the Turks had laws and they conducted the operations very efficiently, as the nazi's, the only difference is that they didn't registrate what happened during this "relocation", but the fact that 100's of 1000's of people just disappeared is proove enough.
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...
L@mplighterM
10-10-2002, 05:13 AM
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...
I know all about the Jews in Warsaw and a matter of fact I posted an article about it. There’s no comparison here at all! None!!!
In any event I’m not denying that the Turks were brutal against the Armenians. Am I? There’s no justification for deliberate slaughter of human beings. None!
Le Pen isn’t my friend but I would support any government that sent the Radical Arabs and their supporters packing! I’m certain that anti Semitism would decrease 99.99999999999% (this may be exaggerated a bit) in France after such a move.
Further no one is engaged in ethnic cleansing in the WB and GS. No one except the Palestinians that are killing Jewish settlers!
Mediocrates
10-10-2002, 05:23 AM
I would ask takeo how he feels about Turkey's permanent "always a bridesmaid never a bride" status with EU membership?
We hear conflicting messages - eg. the official and the real. One is about human rights abuses and they other is about the muslim population. I tend to see it as a little of both. The EU doesn't want to inherit some of Turkey's legacy of rights 'problems' nor do the main 5 - France, Italy, Germany, Benelux really want to open the floodgates to millions of Turkish muslims either.
I am puzzled though Greece's stance about not wanting to hold up a timetable for future discussions. Is this the obligatory "we really don't hate them" speech or do they have a real motive? Or, do they understand it will never happen anyway so why not put on a happy mask?
takeo
10-10-2002, 02:52 PM
actually I think the Greek really want the Turks in the European Union, because it would put an end to the position of Greece as the "end of the world" for trade and "beginning of the world" for illegal immigration, a position which kept Greece in the position of the poorest and less devellopped country of the EU. For the same reason Germany always favored eastern expansion.
Turkey was not admitted because of three reasons:
1) human rights and democracy, in this respect Turkey is even worse than Croatia, yugoslavia, romania and Bulgaria, parties are banned, torture is still common, kurds still don't have any rights, etc.
2)economy: Turkey is in an economic crisis currently, and its infrastructure is not yet ready for entrance, but it is however better than most other balcans countries and even not so much worse than Poland (the reason why Bulgaria and Romania were not admitted is mainly economy)
3)Cyprus: Turkey still recognises the breakaway republic of Northern Cyprus and keeps troops there, which infuriated the EU.
Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.
L@mplighterM
10-10-2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by takeo
Religion is not an issue here, it was never mentioned, and by the way Turkey isn't a very religious society. there is no more fear of massive immigration from Turkey, most Turks who had the opportunity already immigrated and Turkey is nowadays mostly a transit-country for Asian illegal immigration. (and there are other Muslim countries in Europe, such as Albania and Bosnia).
my opinion is that Turkey belongs to (Eastern) Europe and should be allowed, but first it should get rid of the militarist regime. the expectations are unfortunately that Turkey will be allowed together with Romania and Bulgaria, and ahead of former Yugoslavia and Albania, somewhere at the end of this decade.
Islamic Fundamentalism is on the rise in Turkey even to the point where they'll gain ground in the comming election.
takeo
10-10-2002, 04:01 PM
that's right, but the "fundamentalists" rule Istanbul since many years and Istanbul doesn't look like Afghanistan yet... they are closer to European christian-democrats than to the taliban. People vote for this party as a way to vote against the regime-parties (by the way the party is in favor of entrance to the EU as well, and is much less radical than the militaristic fascist grey wolves which have been included in the government). But the party will most probably be banned from participating, as well as the left-wing parties, another sign that Turkey is no democracy.
Mediocrates
10-10-2002, 05:04 PM
What are you saying? It's their fault? Who else has recognized it?
Miriam
10-11-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Countries that do recognize the Armenian Genocide:
http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i.html
In France, Greece and Russia it is ILLEGAL to deny the Armenian Genocide. I don't really understand your fixation on Israel. What does it matter, on practical level? Israel has little influence on world politics with regard to third parties.
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Countries that do recognize the Armenian Genocide:
http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i.html
In France, Greece and Russia it is ILLEGAL to deny the Armenian Genocide.
Look Knightian,
Just because you heard one Israeli politician circumvent a debate about the Armenian Genocide does not mean that ISRAELIS in general do not believe that it did not happen. Armenians and Jews in have mostly got along and depended on each other, especially when living around animals like a large percentage of Azerbaijanis, like in Baku. So now you are going to focus all your critisism on one small country in this vast world, while other larger and more globally affecting countries get off the hook. Whetever, that's PURE ANTI-SEMITISM.
L@mplighterM
10-11-2002, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Supposing you wakened tomorrow morning and Israel recognized the Armenian holocaust what then?
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Knight
You're an idiot.
Care to elaborate on that last point ?
I'm Jewish.
Pariff,
Well thank you. I'll return the favor you shmuck.
Yes, I'll elaborate, putting Israel and Israelis who most of the world believes are all Jews, up to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and critisizing it but failing to critisize other nations is in fact anti-semetism.
Anti-semitism is:
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.
Even if not a single country in the world recognized the Armenian Genocide I would only care about Israel's recognition.
Nothing is lower on this planet that Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide, because of the Holocaust.
I'm surprised Armenia didn't stop teaching kids at school about the Holocaust, although they recently removed the Holocaust monument from Yerevan and sold the land to a summer cafe.
Can you deny that this isn't hostility? Sorry if I don't stop to ask what you are when all day long we are bombarded with anti-semitic tripe by skum on this forum. So at this point, when I hear you refer to Israel's denial being the lowest thing on earth, sorry if I tend to generalize you with the rest of the people who share your view.
And my Uncle is Armenian, what's your point?
Mediocrates
10-11-2002, 10:41 AM
Knight: make your case to the MFA. I'd like to read the response.
minusthejihad
10-11-2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Knight
Israel is on a higher moral ground because of the Holocaust.
I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
takeo
10-11-2002, 06:05 PM
"How would you feel if Armenia denied the Holocaust with the excuse that Iran is a major strategical ally and Iran does not want us to recognize the Holocaust "
Very interesting point you made, knight!
However you should keep in mind that Israel is a predominantly Jewish state, but it does not represent the Jewish people as whole, I think most Jews feel sympathy for Armenians and recognise the genocide, whatever the policy of Israel (as usual full of hypocrisy)
“Were the Armenians involved in terrorism against the Turkish government or not?â€
Yes you can call it Terrorism or Freedom fighters, here is another example of terrorism (according toL@mplighterM) led by an Armenian. I hope his death was justified for some cause.
“Seven elderly men in Paris, five Poles and two Romanians, tell their stories of life and death in the Resistance in Paris. Almost all were Jewish and had fled from anti-semitism to eke out a living, illegally, in France. Most were also from communist families.
They were young, 16 and 17, when they volunteered for the underground circle which carried out extremely risky assassinations of German officers, throwing bombs into the restaurants they frequented, attacking their cars and barracks. Reliving those days of more than half a century ago, these modest old men have no regrets, except perhaps that they did not do enough, they did not kill enough Nazis. "I'd willingly kill more Nazis today," says one.
The centrepiece of the film is the execution in 1944 of 24 men from the Resistance group led by the Armenian poet Manouchian. This was the tragedy which has marked these survivors of the same heroic circle. This film created a scandal in France, where it was initially banned from television because of its shocking thesis that these foreign Jews were deliberately sacrificed by the French Communist party in a struggle for power, ahead of the end of the war, between the communists and General De Gaulle. The modern-day anti-communist historians of this theory come over as something of a contrast to these strong, old men who lost everything except their political convictions.â€
"In 1943, Missak Manouchian, a militant immigrant Armenian leader in the French Resistance was arrested and later executed along with 22 other partisans. These were the ones focused on from a group of approximately 200 members who were eventually rounded up and executed. What was special about the 22 was that they were immigrant Jews with non-French names. This made them perfect to put on a poster for propaganda purposes. _
The Germans thought that Jews were the result of the interbreeding of "Aryans, Mongrels and Negroes" and they deserved to be treated as something other than human. The poster denounced the immigrants as "Jewish, Armenian and other stateless terrorists." This helped to further separate them, for the official record, from the true (French-born) heroes of the Resistance (sarcasm intended but this is not meant to demean the French resistance fighters). Although I don't pretend to be an expert on the meaning of the term terrorist, I think that many would agree that when another country invades you and you strike back, your actions are those of a patriot and not a war criminal. "
takeo
10-12-2002, 03:28 PM
thank you ara for this great posts, i have nothing to add, except that the PCF did not sacrifice these men because they were of foreign origin, 1000's of communists died, of which most had French roots. What would have been the advantage of such a policy for the PCF?
“Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?â€
Armenians are not asking Israel or the Jewish lobby to recognize the Armenian Genocide. We understand the importance of Israel to keep a balanced relationship with Turkey.... What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest. I hope you all understand that stand isn’t any different than a Holocaust revisionist. Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it.
“Who does, officially?â€
Presently the countries that recognize the Armenian Genocide are the following: Uruguay, Cyprus, Argentina, Russia, Greece, Lebanon, Belgium, Italy, France, two Australian states and Geneva.
"he is right" >> Fturk
David
Wiesenthal Centre Urges Turkey to Condemn Antisemitic Article that
Wiesenthal Center Los Angeles
Notes that "such Incitement contravenes
Provisions of the European Union which Turkey Aspires to Join"
Paris, 23 August 2004
In a letter to Turkish Foreign Minister, Abdullah Gül, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's Director for International Liaison, Dr. Shimon Samuels, expressed horror at the article by Abduharrim Karakoc in the 17 August edition of the
daily newspaper Vakit (Time), which, not only glorifies the arch terrorist Osama bin Laden and the Al-Qa'eda organization, it also extols the name of Adolf Hitler and justifies the Holocaust.
Karakoc's most outrageous comments include:
"The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."
"He predicted what would happen these days. He got rid of the Jews, because he knew that the conjurer Jews, who perceive racism as a religion and take pleasure in splattering the world with blood, would be a big trouble for
the world."
"All non-Jewish countries are under risk, including Turkey."
"It seems that Hitler was a very foresighted man..."
"It was Hitler yesterday and Osama bin Laden today..."
Samuels recalled the 12 January 2004 meeting in Ankara between the Minister, the Wiesenthal Centre's Associate Dean, Rabbi Abraham Cooper and himself, in which Mr. Gül had thanked the Centre "for its acknowledgement of Turkey's protection of its Jewish citizens during World War Two, its solidarity with the Turkish victims of terrorism and its support for his country's rightful place in Europe."
Samuels noted that: "The content of the Vakit article however, not only appears to violate Turkish law, but its apologia for genocide and incitement to antisemitism contravene the anti-racism provisions of the European Union which Turkey aspires to join. They also negate conventions
of the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, to which Turkey is a signatory."
The Centre urged the Turkish Government "to publicly condemn this article and to take disciplinary measures against its author and the editors of Vakit."
Samuels concluded: "This contradiction of Turkey's over five hundred year tradition of friendship with the Jewish people must be vigorously denounced."
The purpose of the 12 January Ankara meeting had been to discuss Turkey's cooperation in the Wiesenthal Centre's global campaign to designate suicide bombing as a crime against humanity.
http://www.juedische.at/TCgi/TCgi.cgi?target=home&Param_Kat=3&Param_RB=4&Param_Red=2988
Semsem
08-24-2004, 09:14 PM
<<The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."<<
Disgusting. The Turks are becoming like the Greeks now.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 09:17 PM
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 09:19 PM
>>mostly got along and depended on each other, especially when living around animals like a large percentage of Azerbaijanis, like in Baku. <<
Jews were not perecuted in Azarbazan.
Semsem
08-24-2004, 09:22 PM
"How would you feel if Armenia denied the Holocaust with the excuse that Iran is a major strategical ally and Iran does not want us to recognize the Holocaust "<<
Takeo you make me SICK. You bash the Jews and Israel every second and one day you will need the Jews to help you.
<<However you should keep in mind that Israel is a predominantly Jewish state, but it does not represent the Jewish people <<
That's what you think.
<< I think most Jews feel sympathy for Armenians and recognise the genocide, whatever the policy of Israel (as usual full of hypocrisy)>>
Most Jews feel sympathy for the Armenians. My family always did as there were many armenians in Egypt from Turkey.
<<The concentration camps which were set up in Germany during World War II have been set up in Israel now. It is impossible not to admire the forethought of Adolf Hitler who was presented to the public opinion as 'racist, sadist, monster'."<<
Disgusting. The Turks are becoming like the Greeks now.
There will be always some anti-semitists around the world including Turkey,you should learn to live with that dear Semsem.
that's right, but the "fundamentalists" rule Istanbul since many years and Istanbul doesn't look like Afghanistan yet....
Did you ever came to Istanbul takeo? I guess your answer will be "no" :rolleyes:
I have nothing to say anything about Armenian Genocia,i don't know what happened 80-90 years ago,i m not historian.But only thing i wanted that armenians understand that we have no bad feelings about them now but eh sure they don't care about that..
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
With your viewpoint turks can say that easily arabs never like them because of their relations with Israel and it's true,years by years Turkey was under Arab attack because of the relations with Israel,they call to Turkey "ungodly","non muslim" even "atheist" country.Biggest part of arabian public think that Turkey was or is puppet of America and Israel,so why Turkey didn't cut relations with Israel because of that?
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 11:40 AM
The Armenian genocide was very different from the Holocaust. It was a result of manipulation of Turkish Arminians by emperial powers, in particular Russia, in order to weaken Turkey. Initially, there was an uprisal against Turkey by the Arminians, who were incited by Russia to push for autonomy. It was ruthlessly put down, but created distrust among the two groups. What is more commonly known as the Armenian Genocide or Armenian Holocaust, was a result of the distrust of the government of Young Turks towards Armenians, and consequent conflict between the two groups that resulted in about 1.5 million being expelled from Turkey, and many others joining Russian Armenians to fight the Turks.
redcake
08-26-2004, 05:22 PM
I like how Genocide in Armenia is always mentioned in some competitive way, like one event has to belittle the other. The real sentiment is "those darn Jews need to shurt up about the stupid Holocaust and share their victimhood, because they're not so special". Of course there's a mutual empathy as their should be, but this idea that there should be even billing is just an immature tactic to bait Jews. The Holocaust was a unique event in Modern History, so anyone who tries to equate it to Armenia is working off of questionable motives. This is usually the argument just before someone tip toes on Holocaust denial territory.
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 06:59 PM
I like how Genocide in Armenia is always mentioned in some competitive way, like one event has to belittle the other. The real sentiment is "those darn Jews need to shurt up about the stupid Holocaust and share their victimhood, because they're not so special". Of course there's a mutual empathy as their should be, but this idea that there should be even billing is just an immature tactic to bait Jews. The Holocaust was a unique event in Modern History, so anyone who tries to equate it to Armenia is working off of questionable motives. This is usually the argument just before someone tip toes on Holocaust denial territory.
I wholeheartedly agree that there is no comparison between the two events. However, in my experience, the feelings about these events among Jews and Armenians are those of sympathy, and not empathy. For the Armenians, it is an important and tragic event in their history, and they intend to remember it just like Jews do with the Holocaust. Also, in regards to Turkey, most Armenians do not blame it for actions of a government they had 80 years ago.
KettleWhistle
08-26-2004, 07:02 PM
<<What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest<<
The Armenians don't like us and quite frankly I don't blame them. We never wanted to support them because of our relations with Turkey but the relations will get worse I am sure.
The Armenians don't like us??? Every Armenian I've met was just fine with the Jews. Furthermore, the Jews have been living in Armenia for centuries without any conflicts with the locals.
CanDo
08-29-2004, 10:36 AM
What is more commonly known as the Armenian Genocide or Armenian Holocaust, was a result of the distrust of the government of Young Turks towards Armenians, and consequent conflict between the two groups that resulted in about 1.5 million being expelled from Turkey, and many others joining Russian Armenians to fight the Turks.
I just learned about the Armenian Genocide a couple of years ago. I was shocked to know that there were crimes against a civilian population, similar to the Holocaust, only a couple of decades before the Holocaust.
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
I don't see a "conflict between the two groups", as much as I see a one sided slaughter of 1.5 Armenia men, women and children by the Turks.
Hitler supposedly used Turkey's genocide of the Armenians as a blueprint for the Holocaust against the Jews.
I just learned about the Armenian Genocide a couple of years ago. I was shocked to know that there were crimes against a civilian population, similar to the Holocaust, only a couple of decades before the Holocaust.
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
I don't see a "conflict between the two groups", as much as I see a one sided slaughter of 1.5 Armenia men, women and children by the Turks.
Hitler supposedly used Turkey's genocide of the Armenians as a blueprint for the Holocaust against the Jews.
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
I wish I could give a long answer but I have to go to the Turkish embassy...
CanDo
09-01-2004, 12:07 PM
How objective comment this is,actually Hitler was also turkish origin :rolleyes:
This doesn't surprise me.
The Armenians were actually the breadbasket for Turkey's army, just like Israel was the breadbasket for Gaza.
Turkey wanted to kill all Armenians and steal their land and possessions, which Turkey successfully did. The Arabs want to kill all Jews and steal their land and possessions, which they will never do.
Turkish forces plundered Baku in 1918, stealing from men, women and children alike. At least the government and people of Turkey have been honorable and have apologized, and felt the shame for Turkey's genocide of the Armenian people!
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/1918.html
September 15 to September 17, 1918:
"The three-day massacre by Turkish military forces under the command of Nuri Pasha (Enver's younger brother) and Halil Pasha (Enver's uncle) results in the death of 30,000 Armenian civilians in the city of Baku."
I have done some study on the crimes against the Armenian population by the Muslims of Turkey, mostly through websites such as http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
From what I have read, Turkey's government engaged in a systematic, sadistic and brutal murder of the Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of about 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million.
There are minimum 2 sides in every case.
Extend your research some further and try some alternative thesis too.
mostly through websites such as:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
Atrocities were quite obviously committed by both sides. Armenians with the support of Colonial powers started the killings, revolts etc. with the express purpose of creating the situation where there would be cause for intervention by colonial powers. Armenians were not a majority in any of the areas called Armenia and that therefore, Turks did not take Armenian lands, Armenians were trying to de-Turkify so-called Armenia with the help of the allies fighting against Ottomans.
It is a proven fact that most of the sources referred to substantiate the so-called-genocide are WW I British WAR PROPAGANDA (http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/mccarthy.htm) based on missionary statements, Patriarchy statements etc and these are suspect.
Most of the “EVIDENCE†sited are based on lies (not just lies but outright forgeries) such as the Andonian telegrams (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/andonian.htm) , Hitler’s statement (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm) , skull pyramids (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/kirli-vs-armenview.htm), etc., I am posing the legitemate question of : WHY would people who believe they have a legitimate issue resort to forgeries?
There is a distinction between atrocities committed by both sides and genocide. Armenian deaths do not constitute a genocide. Thus everyone who claims genocide with respect to this issue is lying or is misinformed about either the events or what genocide means.
While this has nothing to do with whether there was a genocide or not, the numbers must be questioned again and again. I am pointing out from a lot of sources that the first claims of Armenian losses (not deaths specifically) were certainly less than 600.000 and that now it has gone up to between 1.5 to 2.5 million. Mc Carthy demographic studies (http://www.turkishforum.com/armenian/armenians_during_ottoman.html
) show that it can at max be 600.000. In the same region and at the same time there were over 1 million Turkish civilian deaths, and about 500.000 of those deaths are directly attributable to Armenian atrocities and this claim is based on Archive documents. Again, the enforced-migration- a decision taken in self-defense- was lawful, therefore meticulously recorded. According to these documents the number subjected to migration was 459.000 and 382.000 arrived at their destinations (This does not mean they lived happily ever after) Around 10.000 losses are attributed to various attacks against which the Ottoman administration had to take further precautions. These are Archive documents. Apart from the forced-migration, and in addition to it; there were migrations (a lot of it voluntary or in line with Russian or allied plans regarding the new Armenia to be established, to the Caucuses, Iran and USA. Thus the total migration reaches up to 750 to 800 thousand people and these are not deaths or killings. (I point out that even Toynbee mentions that 500 000 people reached their destinations.) Regarding deaths, the horrible wartime conditions by pointing out that 700 thousand muslims at the same time and in the same area did not die because of Armenian attacks (unlike the 500 000 that are directly attributed to Armenian atrocities) but simply due to hunger, disease etc, and I cite the fact that of the 5 thousand some Armenians that withdrew with the French from Maras, two or three thousand did not survive although there were no external attacks. (Georges Boudière, "Notes sur la campagne de Syrie-Cillicie: l’affaire de Marafl (janvierfévrier 1920)", Turcica, Paris/Strasbourg, IX/2-X (1978), p. 160. ) All such numbers are basically confirmed by Nubar Pasha’s numbers (Nubar was to be the President of the Armenia to be established!)
There are minimum 2 sides in every case.
Extend your research some further and try some alternative thesis too.
mostly through websites such as:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
Atrocities were quite obviously committed by both sides. Armenians with the support of Colonial powers started the killings, revolts etc. with the express purpose of creating the situation where there would be cause for intervention by colonial powers. Armenians were not a majority in any of the areas called Armenia and that therefore, Turks did not take Armenian lands, Armenians were trying to de-Turkify so-called Armenia with the help of the allies fighting against Ottomans.
It is a proven fact that most of the sources referred to substantiate the so-called-genocide are WW I British WAR PROPAGANDA (http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/mccarthy.htm) based on missionary statements, Patriarchy statements etc and these are suspect.
Most of the “EVIDENCE†sited are based on lies (not just lies but outright forgeries) such as the Andonian telegrams (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/andonian.htm) , Hitler’s statement (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm) , skull pyramids (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/kirli-vs-armenview.htm), etc., I am posing the legitemate question of : WHY would people who believe they have a legitimate issue resort to forgeries?
There is a distinction between atrocities committed by both sides and genocide. Armenian deaths do not constitute a genocide. Thus everyone who claims genocide with respect to this issue is lying or is misinformed about either the events or what genocide means.
While this has nothing to do with whether there was a genocide or not, the numbers must be questioned again and again. I am pointing out from a lot of sources that the first claims of Armenian losses (not deaths specifically) were certainly less than 600.000 and that now it has gone up to between 1.5 to 2.5 million. Mc Carthy demographic studies (http://www.turkishforum.com/armenian/armenians_during_ottoman.html</p><p%20style=) show that it can at max be 600.000. In the same region and at the same time there were over 1 million Turkish civilian deaths, and about 500.000 of those deaths are directly attributable to Armenian atrocities and this claim is based on Archive documents. Again, the enforced-migration- a decision taken in self-defense- was lawful, therefore meticulously recorded. According to these documents the number subjected to migration was 459.000 and 382.000 arrived at their destinations (This does not mean they lived happily ever after) Around 10.000 losses are attributed to various attacks against which the Ottoman administration had to take further precautions. These are Archive documents. Apart from the forced-migration, and in addition to it; there were migrations (a lot of it voluntary or in line with Russian or allied plans regarding the new Armenia to be established, to the Caucuses, Iran and USA. Thus the total migration reaches up to 750 to 800 thousand people and these are not deaths or killings. (I point out that even Toynbee mentions that 500 000 people reached their destinations.) Regarding deaths, the horrible wartime conditions by pointing out that 700 thousand muslims at the same time and in the same area did not die because of Armenian attacks (unlike the 500 000 that are directly attributed to Armenian atrocities) but simply due to hunger, disease etc, and I cite the fact that of the 5 thousand some Armenians that withdrew with the French from Maras, two or three thousand did not survive although there were no external attacks. (Georges Boudière, "Notes sur la campagne de Syrie-Cillicie: l’affaire de Marafl (janvierfévrier 1920)", Turcica, Paris/Strasbourg, IX/2-X (1978), p. 160. ) All such numbers are basically confirmed by Nubar Pasha’s numbers (Nubar was to be the President of the Armenia to be established!)
Well thank's for clearing that up, now I see my grand grandmother and her 2 years old daughter tried to attack Turkey nd that's why they had to escape their native Turkey and had most of their family members murdered, and my grandmother's cousin from the father's side probably tried to attack the good German soldiers who liberated Ukraine and deserved to be shot out to a mass grave.
demirturk
09-23-2004, 02:49 AM
We, Turks, do not deny that during and after armenian uprising, there were brutal killings in southeastern part of the Ottoman Empire. But as Mete perfectly set out for your eyes and minds that both sides committed those crimes. It was unfortunate but nonetheless happened. No one claimes that your relatives were attackin Turkey so they had to deport but it is a fact that Armenians in general was attacking ottoman forces along with russian troops and they committed massacres in several towns and cities. Forgive us for not giving our land to you. No nation in the world would give away its land without a fight and in this particular fight you, Armenians, lost.
I wish there was no killings at all and we could live together but you chose to be sided with a foreign power and turned against your own government, therefore there was a bitter price to pay. Once again , I am sorry that people had to suffer but we suffered too. If there was a crime , it was two sided. We both hold the same sword by the sharp end and both got cut.
If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of them.
This is how I feel. Feel free to answer me.
Demir
Emunah
09-23-2004, 08:38 AM
The denial of the Armenian Genocide seems to be a Turkish obsession. It reminds me of the holocaust deniers who use all sorts of fancy false facts to bolster their case. Look, the genocide happened 89 years ago. What is the harm in simply accepting this? What do you lose? Do you think that you could not live with yourself as a country if you acknowleged that Kemal was a flipping cruel man? That the Turks are not the nice wonderfule "model of democracy" that you would like the west to believe it is AND always has been. I don't see how you can claim to be truthful when you have denied the Kurds the right to even speak their own language much less maintain their culture. That doesn't give you much credibility on the issue of the Armenians 89 years ago does it? The Kurds have acknowleged AND appologized for their part in the Armenian Genocide and the whole world has looked at the evidence and made there decsion...and the decision is that YES that's what happened.
The only reason Israel STOPPED acknowledging the genocide is because Turkey made it a pre-condition for diplomatic relations. They did the same thing with our state department! We stopped OFFICIALLY acknowledging the Armenian genocide too, against the protestations of Bob Dole, who has long worked with the Armenians.
I have looked at Turkish "talking point" sites and it's a load of BS. Isn't there ANYONE in the Caucuses and Anatolia that can just admit to being wrong?
KettleWhistle
09-23-2004, 09:22 AM
We can also ask why few outside of Turkey recognize that the Armenians were a pawn in the Russian and British games of imperial ambitions.
I'm not trying to imply that what happened there was right or can be justified, but it needs to be seen in proper historical and cultural context.
demirturk
09-23-2004, 11:18 PM
You just keep insulting Turks and Turkey and throw away bags of BS. It is very typical of people who has little intelligence and less knowledge. Even a monkey could have understood after what were posted in this forum alone that we , Turks, do not have to admit anything. It is simple even by your standards. Ottoman empire had crashed an uprising by Armenians, Armenians had sided with Russia and then France, They massacred both Turks and Kurds. As a precaution government decided to move them from war zone and they were not relocated out of the empire, they were simply noved to other parts of the Ottoman empire. And that happened in the war zone in major cities they lived as it is. They were even free enough to commit murder in Istanbul, see Ottoman bank incident. During this thime of peril, terrible things happened. Empire was poor and their resources were insufficient to carry out the task of moving millions of people.People died, that is for sure. But there was no genocide or systemetical killing by government. You, Armenians, started all these and we finished it. You guys still dream of taking of some of our cities. I am sorry that people had to suffer but it was not our making. Next time you will not uprise against your government and take side with the enemy. Ouch, I forget you have your own little country now and you can only commit treason against yourselves.
I am sure you guys are capable of that too. Losers...
Berkovic
09-24-2004, 08:58 AM
Israel does not want to Recognize the Armenian genoicde on a couple of issues.
One being that there is alot of historical debate over it. Sure, people died. It was in a time of the collapse of the Ottaman Empire. When an empire falls, people die. Im sure that there was alot Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Jews as well as Aremenians who perrished in those times.
Also, Armenia has in some cases been Anti-Israel. Most people i know who lived during the USSR days in the armenian area that happened to be jewish claimed that the 'biggest anti-semites' were the Armenians who hated jews. On contrarary the friendliest people were the Turkmenistanis :D ....
Israel does not want to ruin good relations with Turkey in which it has.
Also, Armenia has in some cases been Anti-Israel. Most people i know who lived during the USSR days in the armenian area that happened to be jewish claimed that the 'biggest anti-semites' were the Armenians who hated jews. On contrarary the friendliest people were the Turkmenistanis :D ....
Who Said it, it is just BS, all the non-white non-russians in Russia have a kind of bondong because we have a common feature we are all hated by the Russians equally, A poster I saw a couple of days ago just showed it on the poster there was a cry for Putin to protect the Russian people from 3 enemies, the Yid was there with all his glory, the Hachik (A bad word to describe a man of the Caucass) and the African.
...
I am sure you guys are capable of that too. Losers...
Yes we bad, Now try denying what's happening in the all male Turkish saunas...
KettleWhistle
09-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Yes we bad, Now try denying what's happening in the all male Turkish saunas...
Here's one theory I've read about that:
"The segregation of the sexes is not necessarily an evil provided that it is done for reasons of morality, and not (as I am forced to assume) for reasons of heightening the pleasure of the opium-maddened Turk in his steamy seraglio, denied the pleasure of the sight of the female form in the town square, expending his vitals all at once in a premature and forbidden way at the glimpse of the calf of one of his forty silk-veiled wives. "
Read the whole thing at http://johnmurraypenfold.20m.com/terrorism.htm
Time will only tell how honest is the turkish Israeli relationship. You can patch all you want to keep the beast calm and friendly, after all those two Synagogues weren’t blown in an Arab country they were blown in turkey. As “demirturk†puts it properly .... “If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of themâ€. We can only assume Jews are uprising in turkey and they might be next.
Time will only tell how honest is the turkish Israeli relationship. You can patch all you want to keep the beast calm and friendly, after all those two Synagogues weren’t blown in an Arab country they were blown in turkey. As “demirturk†puts it properly .... “If the history repeats itself and any one of ethnic groups uprises against my country, I would do my best to get rid of themâ€. We can only assume Jews are uprising in turkey and they might be next.
Seems like you heard nothing about the event, except that such a thing happened.
takeo
09-29-2004, 04:18 PM
Who Said it, it is just BS, all the non-white non-russians in Russia have a kind of bondong because we have a common feature we are all hated by the Russians equally, A poster I saw a couple of days ago just showed it on the poster there was a cry for Putin to protect the Russian people from 3 enemies, the Yid was there with all his glory, the Hachik (A bad word to describe a man of the Caucass) and the African.
I have very different experiences in Russia, we went there with an African girlfriend as well, never got so much attention and care. It is very hard to distinguish Jews and "real" Russians, only the name indicates the difference. The Russians and Georgians are only slightly different, they're brothers, Armenians are different but they are not hated in Russia, but Tatars (including Azerbaidjani's and central-Asians) and muslims in general (especially from the eastern caucasus) sometimes are.
KettleWhistle
09-29-2004, 06:05 PM
The Russians and Georgians are only slightly different, they're brothers, Armenians are different but they are not hated in Russia.Rrrrrrrrrrrrright...
BTW, takeo, this wouldn't be you and your girlfriend?
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/8924/12193.jpg
I got an email from somebody claiming to be your friend, and offering this visual. I figured we could all appreciate it.
takeo
09-30-2004, 05:02 PM
hahaha i would know what to do in this circumstances (altough she's not very exiting, black is not always beautiful)!
No it isn't my girlfriend she's Cuban and the wife of my best friend (French entirely) who went with me to Russia the last time I was there I'm more fund of Asian looking girls, I'm more "SMALLminded" in this kind of things...
anyhow be aware of Turkish sauna's indeed... I wouldn't recommend it unless you like it the other way and are very "openminded"... in Russian banyas it is not so common I guess (which are sometimes just a cover-up for (heterosexual) prostitution)
btw I think the Armenian genocide is perhaps a direct result of Armenian support for Russian expansionism, but does this in any possible way legitimise this genocide or make it any better than the Shoah? this kind of logics is comparable to "yes the jews suffered because of the nazi's but it's their own fault they're just a bunch of bolcheviks/antichrists/capitalists/parasits/natural ennemies of European civilisation or whatever".
Armenian deportation is a direct result of Armenian terror on civil population in Eastern Anatolia. By this, that their aim was to support Russia or that to de-Turkify the region or that to build their own state in those lands or these all combined together would be indirect factors, on their side.
Emunah
10-08-2004, 11:46 AM
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.It is just a diffrent approach, for the past few decades Turkey has been a member of the middle east and in the middle east we are proud of our blood thirst, we brag about our make our mass murders presidents, brag about our massacres and feel pretty good about it (yes including the ME country Israel) but now Turkey wants to change friends and become part of the Europe and in Europe they have a different approach is not like they are not persicuting the minorities and sometimes kill off some of them, but they just keep realy quiet about it, You don't hear England and France realy denounce their colonial past they just don't mention it anymore, the only exception is Germany but that mainly because their Genocide is so horrible and unhuman, So Turkey gotta chose stay with the Middle Easterners and live a quiet (although bloody) and shameless living or to join the western hypocricy, the choise is theirs.
First of all you are either misunderstanding or trying to twist the thing.
Killing is something else and genocide is another.
Genocide is a judicial term that was described 1948 by the UN, which has some conditions to be count to be committed. Now you say that one day suddenly you woke up and learnt that it wasn't so right to kill the American Natives and after that day it felt so honest. Fine, but did the USA declared that she committed a genocide? What about the other natives all over in Northern and Southern Americas? and Oceanicia? Northern Africa? Russia? China? There are islands in the Aegean Sea where all Turkish population got lost in one night during Greek Revolt. Algerians claim to lose 2 million civilians during their independence struggle from France, China tried mass destruction weapons on Uighur minority. There are still genetically handicapped births in Vietnam, because of illegally used Napalm by the USA.
The terms such as terrorist, minority, self-determination, minority rights, genocide are perceived rather as political tools by the world rather than global facts.
So some French parliementers can sit and decide if there was a genocide or not, eh? So if the jewish lobby in the US congress support Turkey against Armenian and Greek ones then there is no genocide but if the regional and international circumstances change and so their idea too, then suddenly a genocide appears 90 years ago!
There are serious historians refuting the so-called Armenian genocide, thats not a myth or something of Turkey. But the thing is today, Armenian opportunism of demanding something from Turkey matches with some others political agendas.
Then, stop trying to bring the case to the "muslims and others" rhetoric. This is not a "muslims and others" thing, not a "turks and armenians" thing, this is a discussion between individiuals, so if you have objection, let it be on my remarks, not on "the cultural mindset of muslims" or something like that.
Afterall that Turkish government you are talking about is a few times more democratic, more tolerant and more peacefull than Armenia.
Then the other thing, if it was a myth or whatever:
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."
Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)
"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."
Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."
Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."
Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
takeo
10-09-2004, 04:18 PM
That's the Turk's story and their sticking to it! I know that's what they teach in Turkey, but it doesn't make it true!. Every nation has its myths, but Turkey seems to have tons of them, particularly with regard to Armenians and the Kurds (who you seem to think are "mountain turks" or who live in some other country). Turkey has been holding its myths for so long one must wonder why it is so hard for them to accept some blame for something that the world already knows.
The leader of "Arabs for Israel" says that in most of Islam the idea of atonement is missing. Nothing is ever centered around soul searching, accepting blame and asking forgiveness. In this case it may be that Turkey finds an inability to do this for the same reasons. Although a "relatively" secular country, Turkey has the cultural mindset that Noni Darwish speaks of with regard to self-reproach. The Jews and Christians all have rituals and religious days centered around correcting wrongs. Perhaps Turkey would benefit from this sort of notion too.
Once in the USA we believed that the Native Americans were systematically killed and "deported" *because* they raided our villages and killed "white" men, women and children. These days we acknowlege that both things were true, but the largest burden of the matter was on us in the first place. I can only hope that one day Turkey will be as honest with itself and stop perpetrating the lies and myths about their purity of being. The Turkish government is simply not democratic, not tolerant of minorities, not willing to accept blame and teaches fairy tales about their history. Not my idea of a free and open society worthy of EU membership at all.
of course, but there is some progress
Georgia (I mean georgia tbilissi right?) isn't exactly an example either...
Justcurious
10-10-2004, 12:26 AM
Armenian genocide? Well almost. Last night Finland's football team beat Armenia 3-1. Not quite a genocide, but comfortable. Israel's 2-2 draw against Switzerland was quite expected, wasn't it?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/section?id=worldcup&cc=5739
Armenian genocide? Well almost. Last night Finland's football team beat Armenia 3-1. Not quite a genocide, but comfortable. Israel's 2-2 draw against Switzerland was quite expected, wasn't it?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/section?id=worldcup&cc=5739
Well I expected Israel to screw up and lose but they surprised and almost won the game, so I'm satisfied with the result.
TETurkhan
10-28-2004, 02:03 AM
Time will only tell how honest is the Turkish Israeli relationship
The Turks and Jews have gotten along for centuries. Sure there have been moments in our history where relations have been strained however that is to be expected. Today Israel and Turkey are close allies regardless of the current government in Ankara playing politics. They are really only trying to score points with the EU by criticizing Israelis policies against the Palestinians – simple as that.
Put aside the history there is the simple fact that Turkey and Israel need each other – the alliance between them makes strategic sense.
CanDo
11-17-2004, 01:14 PM
Now you say that one day suddenly you woke up and learnt that it wasn't so right to kill the American Natives and after that day it felt so honest.
A noble, democracy, like the US or Israel, owns up to past mistakes, and tries to make amends. A dishonorable, backward country like Turkey lies about it's past and it's mistakes.
Only honorable, decent Turks will admit to the horrible genocide, committed against the peaceful, unarmed Armenians, by the Turks between 1914 and 1918. All others, including yourself, will continue to live in lies and deceit.
Turkey's Dark Past
By Gamaliel Isaac
FrontPageMagazine.com
November 22, 2004
"The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after "such and such a massacre." Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times-groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic)...
The burning of the Greek city of Smyrna and the massacre and scattering of its three hundred thousand Christian inhabitants is one of the most poignant - if not, after the vast outrages of the 20th century, the bloodiest - crimes in all history. It marked the end of the Greek community in Asia Minor. On the eve of its destruction, Smyrna was a bustling port and commercial center. It was a genuinely civilized, in the old-world sense, place. An American consul-general later remembered a busy social life that included teas, dances, musical afternoons, games of tennis and bridge, and soirees given in the salons of the highly cultured Armenian and Greek bourgeoisie.
Sic gloria transit: sporadic killings of Christians, mostly Armenians, started as soon as the Turks overran it on September 9, 1922. Within days, they escalated to mass slaughter. It did not "get out of hand," however, in the sense of an uncontrolled chaos perpetrated by an uncommanded military rabble. The Turkish military authorities deliberately escalated it. The Greek Orthodox Bishop Chrysostomos remained with his flock. "It is the tradition of the Greek Church and the duty of the priest to stay with his congregation," he replied to those begging him to flee. The Moslem mob fell upon him, uprooted his eyes and, as he was bleeding, dragged him by his beard through the streets of the Turkish quarter, beating and kicking him. Every now and then, when he had the strength to do so, he would raise his right hand and blessed his persecutors. A Turk got so furious at this gesture that he cut off his hand with his sword. He fell to the ground, and was hacked to pieces by the angry mob. The carnage culminated in the burning of Smyrna, which started on September 13 when the Turks put the Armenian quarter to torch and the conflagration engulfed the city. The remaining inhabitants were trapped at the seafront, from which there was no escaping the flames on one side, or Turkish bayonets on the other. This was the end of Christianity in Asia Minor, whose history goes back to events recorded in the New Testament itself."
Marjorie Housepian in her book The Smyrna Affair, quoted a missionary eyewitness who said the Turkish Muslims actually enjoyed massacring the Armenian Christians. He said:
"The slaughter of the Armenians was a joy to the Turks, a massacre was heralded by the blowing of trumpets and concluded by a procession. Accompanied by the prayers of the mullahs and muezzins, who from the minarets implored the blessings of Allah, the slaughter was accomplished in admirable order according to a well arranged plan. The crowd, supplied with arms by the authorities, joined most amicably with the soldiers and the Kurdish Hamidieh on these festive occasions. The Turkish women stimulated their heroes by raising a gutteral shriek of their war cry, the Zilghit, and deafening the hopeless despair of their victims by singing their nuptial songs. A kind of wild cannibal humour seized the crowd...the savage crew did not even spare the children."
The Turks have committed atrocities against other minorities as well, The Tower of skulls of Chele Kula shown below, is a monument to the Turkish savagery against the Serbs in the early 1800s
Lest we think "Well that was ancient history", as recently as 1974 Turkey invaded Cyprus. Just as the Romans renamed Israel, Palestine in order to erase the memory of the Jewish State, the Turks have renamed all the cities and towns in Cyprus. They have also destroyed concrete evidence of the Christian and Greek history of the area of Cyprus under their control. According to an article in the Guardian ('The Rape of northern Cyprus', 5.6.1976)
Cypriots who oppose the Turks are treated severely; in 1996 the Greek Cypriot demonstrator, Anastasios (Tasos) Isaak, was beaten to death by the Turkish occupation forces. According to the Greek Cypriot Magazine Selides. August, 1996, one thousand six hundred and nineteen Greek Cypriots and Greeks who were taken as prisoners of war during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus are still missing.
The Turkish Heritage of Anti-Semitism
"Like their Christian fellow subjects, the Jews were inferior citizens in the Muslim-Ottoman state which was based on the principle of Muslim superiority. They were regarded as state protégés (dhimmis) and had to pay a special poll tax (jizya) for that protection and as a sign of their inferior status. Their testimony was not accepted in the courts of justice, and in cases of the murder of a Jew or Christian by a Muslim, the latter was usually not condemned to death. In addition, Jews as well as Christians were normally not acceptable for appointments to the highest administrative posts; they were forbidden to carry arms (thus, to serve in the army), to ride horses in towns or to wear Muslim dress. They were also not usually allowed to build or repair places of worship and were often subjected to oppression, extortion and violence by both the local authorities and the Muslim population."
Professor Tudor Parfitt in his comprehensive study of the Jews of Palestine during the 19th century wrote about the Turkish oppression of the Jews of Palestine as follows:
"…Inside the towns, Jews and other dhimmis were frequently attacked, wounded, and even killed by local Muslims and Turkish soldiers. Such attacks were frequently for trivial reasons: Wilson [in British Foreign Office correspondence] recalled having met a Jew who had been badly wounded by a Turkish soldier for not having instantly dismounted when ordered to give up his donkey to a soldier of the Sultan. Many Jews were killed for less. On occasion the authorities attempted to get some form of redress but this was by no means always the case: the Turkish authorities themselves were sometimes responsible for beating Jews to death for some unproven charge. After one such occasion [British Consul] Young remarked: ‘I must say I am sorry and surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part- for certainly what I have seen of him I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity- but it was a Jew- without friends or protection- it serves to show well that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life’."
During World War I in Palestine, the embattled Young Turk government actually began deporting the Jews of Tel Aviv in the spring of 1917 - an ominous parallel to the genocidal deportations of the Armenian dhimmi communities throughout Anatolia. A Reuters press release regarding the deportation states that:
" on April 1 [1917] an order was given to deport all the Jews from Tel Aviv, including citizens of the Central Powers, within forty-eight hours. A week before, three hundred Jews were expelled from Jerusalem: Jamal Pasha [one of the triumvirate of Young Turk supreme leaders, Minister of the Navy, and commander of the Fourth Army in the Levant] declared that their fate would be that of the Armenians; eight thousand deportees from Tel Aviv were not allowed to take any provisions with them, and after the expulsion their houses were looted by Bedouin mobs; two Yemenite Jews who tried to oppose the looting were hung at the entrance to Tel Aviv so that all might see, and other Jews were found dead in the Dunes around Tel Aviv."
It was not clear why the slaughter did not occur. One hypothesis put forth by the British Zionist movement suggested that the advance of the British army (from immediately adjacent Egypt) and its potential willingness "..to hold the military and Turkish authorities directly responsible for a policy of slaughter and destruction of the Jews" may have averted this disaster.
Turkish hostility to the Jews during World War II led them to refuse to allow Jews to flee Hitler into Turkey. In one instance 769 Jews packed an old, dilapidated cattle boat called the Struma and made it to the shores of Turkey. The Turks denied them entry and eventually towed them out to sea where they sank.
In its jealousy of American power and determination to create a counter-power, France, with support from Germany, has looked to ally itself with Islamic countries in order to help create that counterweight to the United States. On October 26, 2004, France and Germany stood behind Turkey’s campaign to join the European Union. Admitting the Turkish Trojan Horse may give them the power to counter the United States but the price they will pay will be further subjugation to a growing hostile European Muslim population.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16059
TETurkhan
12-06-2004, 10:30 AM
You have meticulously only selected tidbits from history that support your viewpoint. It is widely accepted that the Ottoman Empire was remarkably tolerant to its minorities for its time. Certainly incidents did happen contrary to this, but nowhere near your exaggerated claims.
Keep in mind that the Ottomans were the last of the Mediterranean Imperial Powers. All of Europe feared them for centuries, and they were known as invincible. Martin Luther once even said that the Turks were sent by God to punish Christians for going astray. All this lent itself to the image of the ‘Terrible Turk’, “a brute, tyrannical personâ€. By the way what I included in quotation marks was taken from an encyclopedia defining a Turk – the only race in the world which is given characteristics as such. This dehumanizing, racism and hatred of the Turks still exists today.
Many of the people the Ottomans use to rule base their national identity on the hatred of the Turks. Serbians, Greeks, Arabs, Armenians all have a deep resentment towards their former overlords, the Turks. Many of them never have accepted that the Turks are there in Anatolia to stay. Many of them still have territorial ambitions and would love to see Turkey broken along the lines mandated by the Treaty of Sevres.
As for relations between the Turkey and Israel – I believe it will continue as it has done for centuries. Most encounters between the two people through out history, like Khazar Turks intermingling with the Jews north of the Black Sea, or Sephardic Jews finding refuge in the Ottoman Turkish Empire when fleeing the Spanish Inquisition. You cannot just wipe that history or forget it overnight, not to mention that the cooperation of the two states simply makes strategic sense.
israelian
02-21-2005, 04:23 PM
Hello, since reading these quotes I have asked a friend of mine who does research in armenian genocide issues to review these publications and this is what he sent back to me, I thought it was interesting... I am directly copypasting from his email.
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
[I]Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91.
This quote is a forgery, first of all there is a grammar mistake in the title of this supposed work that won't passes as incognito for editors “stationed†in London. Skeptical but still open minded enough, over a year ago, I placed an inter loaning order to find the book, the book is nowhere to be found around all the libraries around the world affiliated with the inter loaning program. Surprising enough, even those libraries in Turkey that are included in the system have no copy of the work in question.
The books existance has been fabricated in the newsgroups in 90s, not a single copy seems to exist... even from the Londons largest library.
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
[I]A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. Quoted from Richard Hovannisian, Armenia on the Road to Independence, Berkeley, 1967, p. 41-42.
Isn't it quite amusing to find out here again the famous Lalayan quote? More amusing is the fact that many different flavors of this quote were all around the web, like “Muslim†being changed by the words Turks and Azeris. What about the quote in question, not from Richard Hovannesians work,(not to say that some other sites claims that it comes from the work “Patriotism Pervertedâ€) but rather the original Revolutsionniy Vostok ? An inter loaning order gave no results. Not finding the original, I restrained myself using the second source referring to it.
Has this quote anything to do with the Ottoman Empire and 1915-1917, where most of the genocide happened? No!!! Actually, this quotes come from a said Lalayan, whose identity seems not existing in any other records, whom was allegedly a close friend of Shaumian.
Interesting of course. Whom was Shaumian??? He was a traitor to the Armenian nation whom comploted with the Soviets to get Armenia “bolshevised,†he was like Lalayan, his alleged closest friend under the command of the Red Army, against the Armenians. No wonder that “Revolutsionniy Vostok†is nowhere to be found, it is a Bolshevic material, the sort of periodical quite common during those years covering the heros of the Red Army. Actually he sound to be a Soviet Hero more than anything else... and even the date of the alleged material, it is claimed that he was a Dashnak. Let see if this has any sense at all. The date of the material? Late 1918, at that time already over a million Armenians died in the genocide, so this material won't justify what has been already done. Is it possible that in the Middle of the Russian Revolution, started in 1917, a communist Armenian be a Dashnak, being a close friend of a traitor that was one of the leading figures of the Bolshevisation in that region; be a Dashnak himself? NOPE!!! And what is the region in question? Nachikevan, and this in late 1918, and NOT!!! The Ottoman.
Have anyone any idea of the Armenian population of Nachikevan? Take a map of the world, find Armenia, and see where Nachikevan is... as you know, it is now a part of Azerbaijan. Has it any natural border with Azerbaijan? NO!!! It is between Turkey and Armenia. It was part of historic Armenia, while Armenians were one of the most populous population there, there is no reported Armenian living there as of now. Where are they? Do you know why Nachikevan that has no border with Azerbaijan, is part of it?
Ataturks companion of arm Karabekir, considered in Turkey as a national hero, with General Halil, whom wrote in his own memoirs having butchered 300,000 Armenians with his men, were sent there butchering the Armenians and comploted with the Bolchevics to get Nachikevan and Karabagh, and other Armenian regions to be separated from Armenia, to be sure that never ever an Armenia will have the possibility to exist. Karabekir himself wrote in his memoirs when planning to do this: “Armenia, destroy for eternity.â€
And now, you have mete quoting a Bolshevic trash, that its sources is not found, and even if found, will end up being a blade with two cutting edges.
israelian
02-21-2005, 04:27 PM
[quote]"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."
Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)
This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.
"In history it happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia 2.5 million Muslims were killed by the Armenians in the worst possible way imaginable. It is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims happened. The Armenian General Dro, the butcher was the architect of this Armenian genocide of Muslims, 1914-1920."
[I]Arto Derounian (as 'John Roy Carlson'), Armenian Affairs magazine Winter issue, 1949-50, page 19, footnote. (Derounian's first name was "Avedis," and "Arthur" is the name he usually used; the author's "Under Cover" was a best seller in 1944.)
This quote is a pure fabrication and does not exist, it is a known fabrication of Serdar Argic, the legendary newsgroup spammer and forger.
"...When Turkey had not yet entered the war...Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups, and especially arming them, against Turkey. In the Fall of 1914, Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks..."
[I]Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, 1923. (The Armenian Revolutionary Federation Has Nothing to Do Any More, New York, Armenian Information Service, 1955, p. 5.)
First of all, Darounians version of the work is not the Original Armenian language published Katchadounis Manifesto, not only are they not the same, but the first 7-8 pages are supposed to be Verbatims, and are not concordant with the original manifesto. And the mistakes are obvious.
First, let me explain you why, Erzerum was part of Ottoman, the decision taken during the Erzeroum Congree by the General Committee, was for the Ottoman Armenians, whom lived in the Ottoman soil. It is impossible for Katchadouni to have actually written something like this, because he was well aware of the fact that there was two Armenia, Russian Armenia and Ottoman Armenia, the Dashnak committee living in the Ottoman represented Ottoman Armenia, Armenians in Trans Caucasia were Russian Armenians under the Russian commands. Furthermore, had the Ottoman not exposed its intention soon during the war, with their plan of an Armenian province consisting of Ottoman AND Russian Armenia; the Russian Armenians would have never organized in the Caucasian front to prevent an Ottoman incursion. Read the official letter found in Uras files collections, from the Press Organ of the Dashnaktiutun, and it will confirm this fact.
In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto, and no wonder that all the materials that denialist sources were able to use, are all in the first pages that are called Verbatim and where the differences between the original are the most important.
Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.
And I would as well want to remind that Katachdouni was one of the leading figures of the Alexandripole Investigations, if you knew what this is, you'll know why Darounians version of the original was far from being accurate.
Beside that, Katachdouni was under Soviet comments charged to justify the Societisation of Armenia and propagaise about a so-called inability from Armenian political movements to govern an independent Armenia.
In conclusion, Darounians version is not the original Manifesto, but rather a propaganda tool, one of those used mutually by two Armenian camps in the 30s to 50s.(read about the whole affair leading to the Montreux Convention and its conclusion.)
israelian
02-21-2005, 04:29 PM
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
[I]Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
This quote does not exist, neither in the first volume, neither in the second, of the aforementioned work. No only does it not exist on page 85 of those two volumes, but it doesn't exist anywhere in those two books. Another example of falsification.
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself."
[I]Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
Interviews such is this of said witnesses popping up after 60 years, can hardly be presented as evidences. First of all, whom is to confirm that he is an Armenian having been converted to Islam. Anyone can come up with such stories that in no way can be confirmed. Where are the Armenians living in Zeve, there is not a single Armenian left there. If Armenians were the aggressors, how come in all the region where it is said by people of your ilk that Armenians were the aggressors there are not a single Armenian presence recorded. All GONE!!!
There is no such thing as an Armenian Turk; ethnicity is a social construct, once an Armenian assimilate he become a Turk, as much as a Turk as any other Turk. There is no way to confirm this “witness†story, and more to this, he himself admit not having seen anything having been done.
There was many Armenians living in Zeve, they all disappeared, in fact, nearly none of the Armenians from Zeve survived, they were all burned in Mass. (The same ways as the other mass burnings witnessed and written by the Jewish intellectuals forming the Nili group)
Firstly, this man came there and seen bodies, burning bodies etc. he claims Armenians told him this later, but there was ZERO Armenian left in Zeve, they could not have said anything. The same goes with Carpanak, all the Armenians from this Island, ALL were butchered, burned, drawn etc.
And finally, whom is to tell that this man is really an Armenian that has converted to Islam?
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination."
[I]Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
“Men are like that†is not the memoirs of Ohanus Appressian, it is a novel, a story written by Leonard Ramsden Hartill, Ohanus is a said native of the region whom didn't know English, and Leonard didn't know Armenian... , most of the work has been written with Apressians pantonimes talks as Leonard say, and the rest is fiction to write a Novel. Beside that, the quote you refer, the word “Turks†is not contained, but rather the work Tartar, and has nothing to do with 1915, it is meant to be a story about ethnocultural conflicts between the tartars and the Armenians in the Russian Empire, and as well, a Bolshevic propaganda.
Let repeat and clarify; Men are like that, is not a memoir, but a Novel written by someone that wrote a good part of the work when he didn't knew, neither Armenian, neither Russian, or any other languages to communicate with Ohannus.(the author tell this himself in the preface of the book) The work is the story of a man(Ohannus), and most of the events related are about his village, during the Tartar-Armenian conflicts from 1904-1906, and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Ottoman Armenians and what happened in 1915. And in the same book, there are many sentences about crimes perpetrated by the Tartars against the Armenians, and the author by the intermediary of his character call it an attempt of extermination from both side. The village in question is now a part of Azerbaijan(Ohannus village), and there are no Armenian living there, they have been killed and pushed out. The goal of this work is to change American public opinion after the Bolshevisation of Armenia. The Americans were hardly accepting that the U.S decided to get out from there without respecting treaties to secure Armenia.
It is a matter of fact, that denialists like you, not having much materials to support your unsupportable theses, rely on falsification and manipulation.
israelian
02-21-2005, 04:34 PM
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
[I]Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
Not only this quote does not exist, but there was even no Gochnak issue published in May 24, 1915, the only issue published in May that was saying anything relevant about Van was published in May 15,(1915) and was about the Turkish attacks in Van, and the Turkish invasion of the Persian Province of Salemaste, and Armenians being targeted there.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
[I]Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
This quote is irrelevant, what an American Armenian, a French Armenian a Russian Armenian do has nothing to do with an Ottoman Armenian. Many Jews served in the allied power in WWII, more so than Armenians having served for the allies in WWI, this doesn't justify the barbarity of NAZI Germany, and the way concentration camps were transformed into killing machines. Here all the question revolve around the Ottoman Armenians whom were killed in mass.
Let repeat and clarify here too; Irrelevant. The genocide was perpetrated against the Ottoman Armenians first, what Russian Armenians have done, or what Armenians elsewhere in the world have do is completely irrelevant. An American Armenian may have served for the U.S, a British Armenian for the British, a French Armenian for France, a Russian Armenian for Russia etc. this in no way change the fact that the Ottoman did carry a plan to exterminate the Ottoman Armenians. That the Soviet Jews have served for the Soviet Union, or Jews that have served in the French resistance, or in the allied armies, don't change a yotta of the fact that the Reichist administration after the Soviet Winter defeat have decided to transform the concentration camps into killing factories.
If Mete find anything wrong about this, then he should maybe sue the Jews serving for the allies that participated in the liberation of the Buchenwald.
Beside that, Armenian unites were as rare as Yishuv “type†Jewish unites in WWII.
israelian
02-21-2005, 04:35 PM
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
Do you even know the butcher General Odesilitze was? Shall I quote from the report prepared in the Ottomans third Army Commander in an affidavit he prepared, where he investigated the corps all around Erzeroum of Armenians being butchered in mass, burned etc.?
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
[I]F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan,turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse]. According to Justin McCarthy's "Death and Exile"
If McCarthy bothered to search whom Kazemzadeh really was, he would never have dared using him to support his claim. But I'm sure he knew, he expected the general reader to be ignorants so that he could sell his lies, just like he did in his chapter where he claimed Armenians having started everything in Van, and as footnote presented Nogales and Ushers works, when those two books shows the entire opposite of what he claims, no wonder he didn't bothered presenting any pages where to check. But I guess he corrected himself, when in his newest book about the Turks, he did not footnote his claims, since he knows most of his research are biased. Must have something to do with the ARIT and ITS grants he receives from Ankara.
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
[I]Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
What a quote of 1997 has anything to do with what happened in 1915? And how the words of some guy has anythings to do with the Armenians as an all? TThis is a typical denialist attitude towards things.
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
[I]Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
First of all, it is Kaprielian, second of all, this quote does not exist, it is said in some denialist sites that it comes from “Patriotism Perverted,†but is NOT in the work.
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
[I]G. Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921
It takes guts to post the words of Bronsart in an Israeli site.
1921? But by then, the genocide was piratically completed, what has the offensives in the Russian Front anything to do with what happened in 1915?
And from when the words of Envers German Chief of Staff should be taken seriously? Beside that, he was recalled for Germany in 1918 and was in no position to know anything about what was happening, but rather was a denialist in Talaats camp during the Tehlirian trial. His claims have been contradicted by the rest of the German stuff stationed in the Ottoman. It wasn't for nothing that Enver has chosen him as the Chief of Stuff.
"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..."
[I]Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301
I am again amused to see that Morganthau is credible when he writes something you like, but not so, when it is else. Why not quoting what he says else, would you?
"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
[I]Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87).
What this material of 1894 has anything to do with 1915? Explain please.
Mete has referred to a website named :tallarmeniantale. I have exchanged with the author of the website and exposed his uses of fabricated materials, forgeries, manipulation etc. I have answered to him with over a hundred pages of material.
And to add, since it is an Israeli forum, the Armenian genocide is very well documented in the Newish Nili group records.
Here, just few references.
Jewish intelligence operative, Absalom Feinberg, who served as liason for the Jewish espionage Unite Nili.
" I have no more teeth left to gnash. Who is going to be the next victim ? On my way to Jerusalem, I have traversed my country on this holiest earth, and I keep asking myself if we are living in the year 1915, or in the times of Titus or Nebuchadnezzar. I, as a Jew, have forgotten that I was Jewish (and it is very difficult to be oblivious to this 'privilege'), and I have asked myself if I had the right to cry solely over the Sorrows of my nation, and if Jeremiah would not have shed tears over the Armenians also ... while a few Turkish hyenas boast of the charnel-house they have created ... Alas ! The The torment of being impotent and without arms. "
Report in E. Robsinson, "The Armenians" (London: Frederick, 1918), p. 4 and Private Archive of the Aaronsohn familym Beth Aaronsohn, Zichron Yaakov, Israel.
Sarah, Sister of Aaron, part of the Nili group,
" How terrible the Turks are ! If we don't succeed in getting free from them in time, they are quite capable of doing to us what they did to the Armenians. Will the Jews be next ?"
Another one from her.
"... the bodies of hundreds of Armenian men, women and children lying on both sides of the railway. Sometimes Turkish women were seen searching the corpses for anything that might be of value; at other times dogs were observed feeding on bodies. There were hundreds of bleched skeletons. At either Gulek or Osmanieh [on the Baghdad Railway] saw thousands of starving and fever-stricken Armenians ... They were lying about the station, on the sidings, and some on the track itself. Some were jostled on the line when the train arrived, and the engine ran over them to the joy of the engine driver, who shouted to his friends, ' Did you see how I smashed about fifty of these Armenian swine ?' [I] fainted at the sight, and on recovery two Turkish officers, speaking French, remonstrated with [me] on [my] lack of patriotism since the Armenians were enemies."
FO 371/2781/253852, Appendix A, p.9, 13 December 1915, R.W. Rown, "The Story of the Secret Service" (New York: Literary Guild, 1937) or also in I. Cown and I. Gunther, "A Spy for Freedom: The story of Sarah Aaronsohn" (New York: Dutton, 1984), L.Y. Schneerson, "Diary of a Man of Nili (Haifa: Renaissance, 1967), in Hebrew.
Eitan Belkind 1887 - 1979, "the son of early pioneering founders of Rishon Lezion went to Constantinople on his own initiative at the age of fifteen, to study at the military high school. When the war broke out he was conscripted into the Turkish army as an officer and assigned to the headquarters of Jamal Pasha."
"The Circassian soldiers ordered the Armenians to gather thorns and thistles to pile them into a tall pyramid; afterward they tied all of the Armenians who were there, almost five thousand souls, hand in hand, encircled them like a ring around the pile of thistles and thorns and set it afire in a blaze which rose up to the heavens together with the screams of the wretched people who were burned to death by the fire. I fled from the place, because I could not stand to see this horrifying sight..."
The flame of Nili, pp. 111 -15
Harry
02-22-2005, 03:54 AM
[QUOTE=mete]
This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.
This quote is a pure fabrication and does not exist, it is a known fabrication of Serdar Argic, the legendary newsgroup spammer and forger.
First of all, Darounians version of the work is not the Original Armenian language published Katchadounis Manifesto, not only are they not the same, but the first 7-8 pages are supposed to be Verbatims, and are not concordant with the original manifesto. And the mistakes are obvious.
First, let me explain you why, Erzerum was part of Ottoman, the decision taken during the Erzeroum Congree by the General Committee, was for the Ottoman Armenians, whom lived in the Ottoman soil. It is impossible for Katchadouni to have actually written something like this, because he was well aware of the fact that there was two Armenia, Russian Armenia and Ottoman Armenia, the Dashnak committee living in the Ottoman represented Ottoman Armenia, Armenians in Trans Caucasia were Russian Armenians under the Russian commands. Furthermore, had the Ottoman not exposed its intention soon during the war, with their plan of an Armenian province consisting of Ottoman AND Russian Armenia; the Russian Armenians would have never organized in the Caucasian front to prevent an Ottoman incursion. Read the official letter found in Uras files collections, from the Press Organ of the Dashnaktiutun, and it will confirm this fact.
In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto, and no wonder that all the materials that denialist sources were able to use, are all in the first pages that are called Verbatim and where the differences between the original are the most important.
Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.
And I would as well want to remind that Katachdouni was one of the leading figures of the Alexandripole Investigations, if you knew what this is, you'll know why Darounians version of the original was far from being accurate.
Beside that, Katachdouni was under Soviet comments charged to justify the Societisation of Armenia and propagaise about a so-called inability from Armenian political movements to govern an independent Armenia.
In conclusion, Darounians version is not the original Manifesto, but rather a propaganda tool, one of those used mutually by two Armenian camps in the 30s to 50s.(read about the whole affair leading to the Montreux Convention and its conclusion.)
:cool:
Tatar
03-18-2005, 10:58 PM
when both sides claim that the documents copied, perhaps altered and pasted here are forgeries. Let the International Courts and Historians research the archives and come up with a decision.
Nobody can argue with the decisions made in Nuremberg trials.
How about Malta trials? What happened to the Turkish officers that were charged with the crimes against Armenians?
Shalom
I'm a turk living in Denmark - and just to put thing straight: I'm a staunch supporter of Israel - and her right to exist and defend herself. Turks and Jews have done quite well since the ancient kingdom of Khazaria, through the Spanish Inquisition in 1492 when 300.000 jews fled to the only country that would welcome them (Turkey) downto now, when Turkey has excellent cooperation with Israel.
That said, I'm a bit frustrated to see how the US Congress is about to vote on the so-called Armenian Genocide. Is that the job of the CONGRESS? No... Maybe we should let historian scholars make their conlusions.
Let me be the very first to say, that if an independent group of scholars reach the conlusion, that the Ottoman Empire in fact made such a horrible thing, I will take the first plane to Erevan and lay down flowers in memory of the slain.
But to start with, George W. Bush's right hand on Middle Eastern Affairs called the Armenian Genocide a hoax, and "their version of history". Because of this, he was put on trial in France, sentenced guilty and fined. Funny.... A FRENCH COURT knows more about history than Mr. Bush's right hand Professor Bernard Lewis ?
History, however, has several different viewing points. During WWI, more than 6 million Jews were ... well you know the story - it's so shamefull that I cant even take it into my mouth. Not one single Jew commited one single attrocity against Germany og germans... In the case of 1915 - things were different. BOTH sides commited attrocities, but for one to label it a Genocide, A SYSTEMATIC attempt to exterminate every single Armenian must be proven. Such a SYSTEMATIC attempt can easily be proven in the case of Shoah/Holocaust. But in the case of 1915, there isnt one single document og tale that underpins that such an order was given. While the terrible events happened in the East, many armenians in the West wasnt percecuted. While it is true that parts of the Ottoman Army staff commited ethnic cleansing - it was also a reaction to the same commited by Armenian Militia. More than 523.000 turk were "ethnically cleansed" from current Eastern Turkey. The Armenians were basically promised their own land by the French and Russians - and started to "cleanse" the land...
Turkey, turks and my ancestors have made just as many faults as any other people and nation. BUT in the case of such a strong accusation, Turkey MUST be free to defend herself and MUST be presented with irresputable evidence.
After all - Innocense until proven guilty - is what civilisation is all about.
If in fact, it is true, and not just massacres commited by both sides in a civil war, Turkey will naturally live up to her obligations.
Le-Hitraot
Kara
P.S. : The Ottoman Archives and Turkish Armed Forces historical archives has just been opened up for public. Turkey has invited Armenians scholars to an extensive examination, but they refuse. Armenia commited massacres against Azerbaidjans population in the 1990's and still occupy Nahcivan and Naghorno Karabakh. Nowbody seems to care. People on the other hand are REALLY caring about events that happened 90 years ago.
Armenians not only killed turks during 1912-1922 - they also butchered kurds, and even 350 jews that just happened to pass by! Anything in their roads was slain...
Tatar
04-20-2005, 10:35 PM
have passed non binding resolutions in recognizing the so-called Armenian Genocide. Probably, some of these politicians who passed these resolutions, don't even know where Turkey is, and when this alleged genocide took place.
If Armenia is so sure that they can prove their case why are they so much against for an independent UN committee to investigate these charges?
Actually, I know the answer, because they can gain much more from propaganda than let the truth come out.
-----------------------------------------
From Zaman, daily Turkish Newspaper -
Armenian gangs killed Ottoman Jews as well
State Archives Head Office classified documents regarding the Armenians in the Ottoman Archives and has revealed some interesting documents. It has emerged that Armenians who accuse the Turks of committing genocide killed 523,000 Turks and great number of Jews in Anatolia.
As the research into the Ottoman documents increases against the so-called Armenian genocide allegations, one document has directed the debate into a different dimension. As the Prime Ministry State Achieves Head Office was classifying the names of those killed by the Armenians, they discovered a document proving that the Armenians massacred Ottoman Jews as well. In the document, which is filed in the archive as number BOA.HR.SYS.2872 /3 and which was sent by gendarmerie commander Ali Vasif to Interior Ministry, reads that 300 Jews were torn apart and killed. The document says that Jews on a journey from Hakkari to Van were chopped into pieces and piled on top of each other.
The document has classified under the title of "The atrocities committed by Armenians along with the Russians to Muslims and Jews in the neighborhoods of Trabzon and Van". The document written by the gendarmerie commander lists 25 items and gives details about the murdered Jews in the 22nd article.
Archives Director General, historian Yusuf Sarinay has noted the fact that the document carries huge significance, revealing the historical facts. The sentence "The atrocities committed by the Armenians together with the Russians to Muslims and Jews in the neighborhoods of Trabzon and Van" is used as the title of the classified document in order to show that Jews were also massacred, Sarinay says.
----------------------------------------
Zaman -
Where are the graves of so-called murdered 1.5 Million Armenians?
A new argument has been put forward against the alleged Armenian genocide by Turkish Institute of History (TTK) President Professor Yusuf Halacoglu.
"People who still claim that 1,500,000 Armenians were killed make the issue a political discussion. Can you imagine what kind of an area would be needed to bury so many people? Even if you put them in graves for 300 people each that would be 5,000 mass graves.
bendalya
04-21-2005, 01:02 PM
Folks,
Here is an interesting website by the Armenian Association of Australia. The site supports the Armenian Marxist Hunchak party which, in my view, led to the demise of the Armenian population in Turkey in 1915 by escalating the events to the level of rebellion. This in no way justifies the forced migration of Armenians in 1915, but it sure sheds light on if these unfortunate events should be considered genocide or not. It seems to me that whenever there is a political power struggle, the innocence is already lost and it is difficult to justify the innocence of a group of people. However, individuals are innocent no matter what, unless they themselves have blood on their hands. Anyway, decide on your own... (PS: I would urge you to read the whole site).
http://www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_nalbandian.html
Regards.
varian
04-21-2005, 03:37 PM
"In arming themselves to protect the uniqueness of the Holocaust, many defenders of the faith (rather than the fact) have shied away from comparisons with other instances of subjugation or mass murder. Such comparisons do not innately obscure the uniqueness of the Holocaust; they clarify it. Inclusion of the Armenian experience, for example,in commemorating the Holocaust does not detract from the uniqueness of the Holocaust but deepens our moral sensitvity while sharpening our perception. Additionally, such inclusion may intensify our moral worth since it displays a generosity of spirit and an ethical integrity. We let our sufferings, however incommensurate, unite us in our condemnation of inhumanity rather than deride us in a calculus of calamity."
"The exploration of the analogies between the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust establishes several themes that are central to the moral lessons of the Holocaust. For example, Hitler used the excuse of the world's indifference to Armenian suffering to silence his Cabinet opposition and as a license to proceed at will with the destruction of the Jews without the fear of permanent negative consequences. If our aim is to teach that remembrance of the Holocaust might prevent future catastrophe not only to the Jews but to other people as well, then what better example is there than the Armenian one? Similarly, one can probe with fruitful results the influence of Henry Morgenthau, Sr., the American Ambassador to Turkey during the Armenian massacres, on his son and namesake, the courageous Secretary of the Treasury, who confronted President Roosevelt with undeniable evidence of American inaction, if not complicity, with the extermination of European Jewry. The Jewish resistance fighters at Bialystok invoked the memory of Mesudah, the Armenian uprising, in fighting for freedom and honor."
"Common to all these examples are three principles for dealing with events analogous but not equivalent to the Holocaust. The analogies must flow from history, they must illuminate other dimensions of the Holocaust and/or the analogous event, and finally, they must be authentic. If these three principles are followed, then we need not fear engaging in analogies that illumine our scholarship and our memory. They will not trivialize nor dejudaize the Holocaust."
The Uniqueness and Universality of the Holocaust
Michael Berenbaum
HOLOCAUST Religious and Philosophical Implications
Page 96
Quigley
04-22-2005, 01:10 AM
Israelian is a fraud. I have read "Men Are Like That" and it is definitely not a "novel." Leonard Ramsden Hartill was an American employing over a thousand refugees engaged in agricultural reconstruction work in the Caucasus during Feb. 1922-Mar. 1924. Worker Ohanus Appressian became a favorite and admitted he took part in obliterating what was once a Tartar village ("Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins. There was a Tartar of this village. He was a man. There was no one braver than he, not even in my old Russian regiment"). The history was too gripping not to be preserved and Hartill wrote, "I have personally verified the complete truth of most of what is set down in the following pages." There is no reason why Hartill would have wished to make up any of this, nor could he have made up any of the details as a foreigner.
I can't accept anything else Israelian has to say, not only because he is trying too hard to discredit every single one of these passages, but because he has lied so blatantly about the above source. He is mainly offering his word to discredit everything else, but his word is worthless.
bendalya
04-22-2005, 02:27 PM
I've come accross the following as I was doing my own little research... I'm curious to understand what more knowledgable members of the group know about this...
http://www.tetedeturc.com/Armenien/aveux_Katchaznouni/armenian_source_ang.htm
"The title of the article is "Turkey's kampf" and is about the latest mass hysteria among the Turkish people, the racism against the Kurds in the Turkish press, and the participation and support of this racistic mobilization by the Turkish authorities and military leaders.
According to the author of the article commentators say that there is a creepy feeling in Turkey exactly 90 years after the Armenian genocide. The Turks are blaming everything on the Kurds: the failure in the EU-diuscussions, for example. This could be the beginning of a civil war, or even worse: a genocide.
Fat headlines in the Turkish newspapers speak of "The wrath of the people" and the "patience of the nation" which is about to end.
The article also mentions that after Orhan Pamuk gave his interview to the Swiss newspaper in which he talked about the Armenian genocide he has not dared to show himself to the people. He is probably just as afraid as Salman Rushdi once were.
Okumus writes that there is a with hunt against Pamuk throughout Turkey and that there have been many local fatwas (a call urging Muslims to kill someone they dislike in order to reach "paradise") cursed upon him. Pamuks book are being burned publicly and the Turkish officials are not only participating in, but also organizing these meetings. It is the Turkish media that is leading the hate campaign against Pamuk.
The fact that Mein Kampf has become one of the tenth most popular books in Turkey lately (a county in which 1 of 10 people read one book a year) is also mentioned. One of the Turkish publisher writes in the foreword of the book that Hitler was "a good nationalist who deserves our respect".
Another book that has become popular is Metal Storm which is about a future war between Turkey and the USA. The catalyzator of the military conflict is the Kurds.
Turkish columnists writes that Mein Kampf is a great expression of the feelings of the Turks. The poor bastards feel betrayed by the West. They also feel that there is a Jewish world conspiracy. Others believe that it is the military that has launched the race cravalls in order to stop the EU-negotiations. No one believes that the sudden popularity of Mein Kampf is just the result of a normal curiousity of Hitler as a "writer".
The anti-americanism and anti-semitism is on the rise in Turkey. The USA and the Jews are blamed for everything: September 11, Iraq, the tsunami in Asia.
The treatment of the minorities stem from the historical inferiority complex Turks have towards the West. Turkey has many faces. One is friendly and is turned against Europe, the other is hostile and is turned inwards.. against the minorities. Turkey has a hate-love relationship with Europe. And right now this is characterized by mostly hatred. Without Europe Turkey would already have been an isolated dictatorship like Iran and Syria."
http://expressen.se/index.jsp?a=269742
NewsGuy
04-24-2005, 01:13 PM
... One of the Turkish publisher writes in the foreword of the book that Hitler was "a good nationalist who deserves our respect".
Turkish columnists writes that Mein Kampf is a great expression of the feelings of the Turks.
[...]
The anti-americanism and anti-semitism is on the rise in Turkey. The USA and the Jews are blamed for everything: September 11, Iraq, the tsunami in Asia.
Same as just about every other Muslim country: Primitive societies full of racism, hatred, and violence. And, of course, shifting the blame for their failures on everyone else but themselves -- especially blaming the Jews and the U.S.
"The title of the article is "Turkey's kampf" and is about the latest mass hysteria among the Turkish people, the racism against the Kurds in the Turkish press, and the participation and support of this racistic mobilization by the Turkish authorities and military leaders.
According to the author of the article commentators say that there is a creepy feeling in Turkey exactly 90 years after the Armenian genocide. The Turks are blaming everything on the Kurds: the failure in the EU-diuscussions, for example. This could be the beginning of a civil war, or even worse: a genocide.
Fat headlines in the Turkish newspapers speak of "The wrath of the people" and the "patience of the nation" which is about to end.
The article also mentions that after Orhan Pamuk gave his interview to the Swiss newspaper in which he talked about the Armenian genocide he has not dared to show himself to the people. He is probably just as afraid as Salman Rushdi once were.
Okumus writes that there is a with hunt against Pamuk throughout Turkey and that there have been many local fatwas (a call urging Muslims to kill someone they dislike in order to reach "paradise") cursed upon him. Pamuks book are being burned publicly and the Turkish officials are not only participating in, but also organizing these meetings. It is the Turkish media that is leading the hate campaign against Pamuk.
The fact that Mein Kampf has become one of the tenth most popular books in Turkey lately (a county in which 1 of 10 people read one book a year) is also mentioned. One of the Turkish publisher writes in the foreword of the book that Hitler was "a good nationalist who deserves our respect".
Another book that has become popular is Metal Storm which is about a future war between Turkey and the USA. The catalyzator of the military conflict is the Kurds.
Turkish columnists writes that Mein Kampf is a great expression of the feelings of the Turks. The poor bastards feel betrayed by the West. They also feel that there is a Jewish world conspiracy. Others believe that it is the military that has launched the race cravalls in order to stop the EU-negotiations. No one believes that the sudden popularity of Mein Kampf is just the result of a normal curiousity of Hitler as a "writer".
The anti-americanism and anti-semitism is on the rise in Turkey. The USA and the Jews are blamed for everything: September 11, Iraq, the tsunami in Asia.
The treatment of the minorities stem from the historical inferiority complex Turks have towards the West. Turkey has many faces. One is friendly and is turned against Europe, the other is hostile and is turned inwards.. against the minorities. Turkey has a hate-love relationship with Europe. And right now this is characterized by mostly hatred. Without Europe Turkey would already have been an isolated dictatorship like Iran and Syria."
http://expressen.se/index.jsp?a=269742
Well... since your link is in sweden, you are probably a kurdish PKK member living in Sweden trying to defame the turks.
But let me respond :
A) Reading Metal Storm doesnt mean turks actually believe the US will attack. ITS FICTION - AND TURKS KNOW HOW TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN FICTION AND FACT.
B) If the turks wanted to commit a genocide against the kurds, it would be like killing our selves. We even had a kurdish president (Turgut Özal). So if we wanted to do THAT, why did we allow a turkish kurd to become president ?
C) "The armenian genocide" you say... what genocide ? The armenians killed 523.000 turks, and even Bernard Lewis, George W. Bush's expert on Middle Eastern History and a professer says "thats just the armenian version of history". Facts should be documented.
D) Turks are NOT blaming the kurds. Kurds however show up on the streets burning turkish flags. Is that normal ? Thats provocative events planned by CERTAIN kurds - and not all. Turkey has never mixed up PKK with the general turkish kurdish population. Besides : It's the DREAM of some kurdish turks, that Turkey will actually start to do something stupid - cause then the whole international community will back them up.
E) Rascism against kurds ? Tell me again where you see it ? Özal was kurdish. Has a black man ruled the US ? Has a palestianian/arab ruled Israel ? Has a Corsiqan ruled France or a Basque ruled Spain? YOUR ARE DREAMING MAN!
F) Orhan Pamuk is not a historian - he's a fiction/novel write. He writes excellent novels, but he is not a historian. THATS WHY he should not talk about the subject about the massacres in 1915.
G) Who the h.... is "Okumus" ? Fatwas in Turkey ? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING. TURKS ARE RULED BY LAW NOT BY FETWAS! Do you even know this? Turkey is a secular nation, not a muslim, hence the accusation seriously lacks any credibility.
H) So... "Mein Kampf" sold a lot... How much exacly ? 50.000 copies. FOR A POPULATION OF 75 mio thats less 0.66 copies per 1000 ! What is that number in Germany, France or Scandinavia ? In turkey, 1.250.000 people enter universities every year. 50.000 is a ridicoulus low number in Turkey - and who says the statistics are right ? They are compiled by whom ?
I) WHO ARE YOU CALLING "POOR BASTARDS" ?
J) You write that "The anti-americanism and anti-semitism is on the rise in Turkey. " REALLY? When the two synagogues were bombed by Al-Qaeda, ALL turkish networks called for people to give blood to the victims. When the people who were killed in the bombing were burried, they were draped in turkish flags formed as the star of David - hardy "anti-semitic" in my views. Besides, where are the statistics ?
K) You also write : "The treatment of the minorities stem from the historical inferiority complex Turks have towards the West." REALLY ? We kicked western butt for 800 years! We had Eastern Europe, all the way to Austria. I dont see any inferiority in that do You ?
L) Finally you have the nerve to state that "Turkey has a hate-love relationship with Europe. And right now this is characterized by mostly hatred. Without Europe Turkey would already have been an isolated dictatorship like Iran and Syria." - OH REALLY? Turkey installed Democracy after kicking out every foreign force in 1923. Italians, Greeks, Brittish, French, Russians etc. etc. were all sent back to Europe - and after that Turkey installed the democracy ! So why didnt we "becoma a Syria" then? BECAUSE TURKS ACTUALLY WANT TO BECOME DEMOCRATIC - not for the sake of Europe, but for the sake of our OWN population.
kara
Saeyko
04-25-2005, 08:36 PM
Why don't the Jewish people just stand up to the government and demand that it acknowledges the Armenian genocide.
To the posts Earlier, who don't think that the Armenian genocide was systematic, I suggest you read a little, I would recommend "The Burning Tigris" a recent book with mostly just facts.
And Yes, Hitler did quote "Who now remembers the Armenians." Maybe if the world gave a dam about human rights back then, and the Turks were punished earlier, this might have sent a message to Hitler before WWII.
It just shocks me that my fellow Jews of all races in the world, would try to find any reason, even ones that might be beneficial in a "short term" for Israel, on why Turks or Israel should not to acknowledge the Armenian genocide.
With that said, I'm happy that you like Armenian food. Shalom!
Saeyko
04-25-2005, 09:04 PM
have passed non binding resolutions in recognizing the so-called Armenian Genocide. Probably, some of these politicians who passed these resolutions, don't even know where Turkey is, and when this alleged genocide took place.
If Armenia is so sure that they can prove their case why are they so much against for an independent UN committee to investigate these charges?
Actually, I know the answer, because they can gain much more from propaganda than let the truth come out.
-----------------------------------------
From Zaman, daily Turkish Newspaper -
Armenian gangs killed Ottoman Jews as well
State Archives Head Office classified documents regarding the Armenians in the Ottoman Archives and has revealed some interesting documents. It has emerged that Armenians who accuse the Turks of committing genocide killed 523,000 Turks and great number of Jews in Anatolia.
As the research into the Ottoman documents increases against the so-called Armenian genocide allegations, one document has directed the debate into a different dimension. As the Prime Ministry State Achieves Head Office was classifying the names of those killed by the Armenians, they discovered a document proving that the Armenians massacred Ottoman Jews as well. In the document, which is filed in the archive as number BOA.HR.SYS.2872 /3 and which was sent by gendarmerie commander Ali Vasif to Interior Ministry, reads that 300 Jews were torn apart and killed. The document says that Jews on a journey from Hakkari to Van were chopped into pieces and piled on top of each other.
Turkish Government getting desperate!
The document has classified under the title of "The atrocities committed by Armenians along with the Russians to Muslims and Jews in the neighborhoods of Trabzon and Van". The document written by the gendarmerie commander lists 25 items and gives details about the murdered Jews in the 22nd article.
Archives Director General, historian Yusuf Sarinay has noted the fact that the document carries huge significance, revealing the historical facts. The sentence "The atrocities committed by the Armenians together with the Russians to Muslims and Jews in the neighborhoods of Trabzon and Van" is used as the title of the classified document in order to show that Jews were also massacred, Sarinay says.
----------------------------------------
Zaman -
Where are the graves of so-called murdered 1.5 Million Armenians?
A new argument has been put forward against the alleged Armenian genocide by Turkish Institute of History (TTK) President Professor Yusuf Halacoglu.
"People who still claim that 1,500,000 Armenians were killed make the issue a political discussion. Can you imagine what kind of an area would be needed to bury so many people? Even if you put them in graves for 300 people each that would be 5,000 mass graves.
Truth coming Out? Isn't that what Turkey has been fighting against for 90 years. And are you saying officials in Canada, France, Switzerland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden, Polland, 38 states in United States, and other regions of the world, all these diplomats don't know where Turkey is? they did not attend a muslim school, buddy, get a life.
What does Canada have to gain from the Armenian genocide? European Countries don't want you in the EU because Turks are still considered war mongols to most Europeans. How many wives do you still have? 5, 10, 20 or 30?
Where are the graves? lol. All over modern day Turkey, I'm sure your government is preserving those sites as historical landmarks.
and your last quotes about only 5,000 Armenians being killed, is like saying only 15,000 Jews were killed. The last step towards a genocide is denial Tatar, please read! you can try some links too. Doubt it you will read it, or understand it but maybe others will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide#Before_the_genocide
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/map-full.html
http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html
http://www.genocide1915.info/pictures.asp
and my fellow Jews please, saying that Armenians could've brought the genocide upon themselves is what your fighting today, anti-Semitism, it's a slap in the face. There's no excuse for killing 1.5million or even one innocent human being. Shalom!
Also Many Armenian citicens in Turkey reject to use "Genocide",I've been watching discussion programs and many armenian writer,journalist criticising Armenian Goverment and Diaspora Armenians,they think Diaspora Armenians are far-nationalist and they dont respect Armenians who born and live in Turkey.
Ethen Mahcupyan,one of the most famous armenian journalist in Turkey said that armenians also killed many innocent turks and turks also killed armenians,so he thinks this is not a genocide.
Hirant Dink-Editor of Agos Newspaper,blaming diaspora armenians to being nationalist and not respect turkey's armenians..
There is an Armenian Village is South of Turkey;Vakifli,armenains are also accusing diaspora..
Now most probably you will say they are "prisinor" armenians,i have a news,Turkey's armenians also so angry to calling them prisinors by diaspora. ;)
I don't believe genocide,noone force me to believe that.
Saeyko
04-26-2005, 10:55 AM
Many Turks have changed their names and committed crimes under Armenian names, wouldn't be suprised is this was one of those. Also, Unfortunately, some people can be bought with money, lots of it, and I know turkey spends millions to hide the truth, your just another victim of your governments brainwashing machine. I don't blame you for being ignorant. But the bottom line is the current situation in Armenia is the only reason why Turks aren't forced into accepting the genocide. You have 70million population vs. 3million, a country that just got it's independence, and a geographical region that works against Armenia, exactly like what Israel is dealing with now. Over time Armenia will get economic and military power in region and you'll be forced to accept the genocide, sounds like the only way it'll happen.
But here's something you can learn today.
Definition of Genocide.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
Plenty of Facts, including eye witnesses have written and told numerous stories and taken pictures of actions taken by Turks from 1890 to late 1920's.
You can't cover up the facts, there are too many, you just have to deal with it, sooner or later.
Armenians were only guilty of asking for some God given rights, which they were denied, always. And they started fighting back when your mongol race almost exterminated them, and once again Armenia was saved! and it's here, and it'll always be here. So make peace, you can start by reading someone elses opinion on the Genocide, I'd recommend you read articles or books written by smarter people.
Maybe you can read writtings by Turkey's greates modern poet, Nazim Hikmet;
"The Armenian citizen has not forgiven
the slaughter of his father in the Kurdish mountains.
But he loves you,
because you also won't forgive
those who blackened the name of the Turkish pople.
Many Turks have changed their names and committed crimes under Armenian names, wouldn't be suprised is this was one of those. Also, Unfortunately, some people can be bought with money, lots of it, and I know turkey spends millions to hide the truth, your just another victim of your governments brainwashing machine. I don't blame you for being ignorant. But the bottom line is the current situation in Armenia is the only reason why Turks aren't forced into accepting the genocide. You have 70million population vs. 3million, a country that just got it's independence, and a geographical region that works against Armenia, exactly like what Israel is dealing with now. Over time Armenia will get economic and military power in region and you'll be forced to accept the genocide, sounds like the only way it'll happen.
But here's something you can learn today.
Definition of Genocide.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
Plenty of Facts, including eye witnesses have written and told numerous stories and taken pictures of actions taken by Turks from 1890 to late 1920's.
You can't cover up the facts, there are too many, you just have to deal with it, sooner or later.
Armenians were only guilty of asking for some God given rights, which they were denied, always. And they started fighting back when your mongol race almost exterminated them, and once again Armenia was saved! and it's here, and it'll always be here. So make peace, you can start by reading someone elses opinion on the Genocide, I'd recommend you read articles or books written by smarter people.
Maybe you can read writtings by Turkey's greates modern poet, Nazim Hikmet;
"The Armenian citizen has not forgiven
the slaughter of his father in the Kurdish mountains.
But he loves you,
because you also won't forgive
those who blackened the name of the Turkish pople.
Hmmm... where should I begin...
A) Hitler said that ? Hmmm... let me recall : The problem with this linkage (Hitler and the "Armenian Genocide") is that there is no proof that Adolf Hitler ever made such a statement. Everything written to date has attributed the purported Hitler quote, not to primary sources, but to an article that appeared in the Times of London on Saturday, November 24, 1945. Said article, entitled "Nazi Germany's Road To War," cites the quote and bases its attribution to Hitler on an address, him to his commanders-in-chief six year earlier, on August 22, 1939, a few days prior to his invasion of Poland. According to the unnamed author of the Times article, the speech had been introduced as evidence during the November 23, 1945, session of the Nuremberg Tribunal. Hitler is quoted as having stated. "Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" However , THIS VERSION OF THE ADDRESS WAS NEVER ACCEPTED as evidence in this or any other session of the Nuremberg Tribunal. ERGO : Since the Nuremberg Trials dismissed the "fact" it is simply fiction!
B) Turks never discuss the FACT that armenians were massacred. They were. What we discuss is whether it was a genocide. And we would also like you to draw attention to the FACT that 523.000 civilian turks died by the hands of armenians, and 2.5 mio. civilian turks by the hands of the invading forces in WWI.
C) Nazim Hikmet is a novelist- not a historian. And he was a communist, and is burried in the Ex-Soviet union. That tells alot!
D) We are not Mongols. Turkish DNA analysis shows a large influx of Haplogroup J and G which is the same as that of Ashkenazi Jews and other parts of the Middle East. You are confusing LINGUSTIC affiliation with GENETIC affiliation - get your stuff straight!
E) Many of the pictures are forgeries. There are also "plenty of pictures" of turkish victims that were killed by Armenian Dashnaks. An Armenian Dashnak officers diary tells of "3.000 turkish babies being burned" !
So spare me for your rascist remarks about our "mongolian race". You are ignorant and know very little about facts, and a lot about propaganda! After all, today you hate turks and inflamate hatred towards turks - and tomorrow you may do just the same contra jews!
Kara
Saeyko
04-26-2005, 04:29 PM
Hmmm... where should I begin...
A) Hitler said that ? Hmmm... let me recall : The problem with this linkage (Hitler and the "Armenian Genocide") is that there is no proof that Adolf Hitler ever made such a statement. Everything written to date has attributed the purported Hitler quote, not to primary sources, but to an article that appeared in the Times of London on Saturday, November 24, 1945. Said article, entitled "Nazi Germany's Road To War," cites the quote and bases its attribution to Hitler on an address, him to his commanders-in-chief six year earlier, on August 22, 1939, a few days prior to his invasion of Poland. According to the unnamed author of the Times article, the speech had been introduced as evidence during the November 23, 1945, session of the Nuremberg Tribunal. Hitler is quoted as having stated. "Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" However , THIS VERSION OF THE ADDRESS WAS NEVER ACCEPTED as evidence in this or any other session of the Nuremberg Tribunal. ERGO : Since the Nuremberg Trials dismissed the "fact" it is simply fiction!
Kara
I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
Kevork B. Bardakjian, Hitler and the Armenian Genocide (Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Zoryan Institute, 1985).
The text above is the English version of the German document handed to Louis P. Lochner in Berlin. It first appeared in Lochner's What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4. The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28. Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III. For the German original cf. Akten zur Deutschen Auswartigen Politik 1918-1945, Serie D, Band VII, (Baden-Baden, 1956), pp. 171-172.
B) Turks never discuss the FACT that armenians were massacred. They were. What we discuss is whether it was a genocide. And we would also like you to draw attention to the FACT that 523.000 civilian turks died by the hands of armenians, and 2.5 mio. civilian turks by the hands of the invading forces in WWI.
Kara
After a "systematic" plan to wipe out Armenians, you found out that Armenians couldn't be wiped out, when We fought you at modern day Armenia, if only we had known the people we lived with were savages, there could've been more Turk casualties and our land would be ours today, but hey you caught innocent people by suprise, defenseless, until they regrouped to saved their existance.
C) Nazim Hikmet is a novelist- not a historian. And he was a communist, and is burried in the Ex-Soviet union. That tells alot!
Kara
Nazim Hikmet was a Poet, playwright, novelist, memoirist.
And Communist or not, the man won Nobel peace prize and one of Turkeys few great minds.
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~sibel/poetry/nazim_hikmet.html
D) We are not Mongols. Turkish DNA analysis shows a large influx of Haplogroup J and G which is the same as that of Ashkenazi Jews and other parts of the Middle East. You are confusing LINGUSTIC affiliation with GENETIC affiliation - get your stuff straight!
Kara
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/origin.htm
more links below for the confused.
E) Many of the pictures are forgeries. There are also "plenty of pictures" of turkish victims that were killed by Armenian Dashnaks. An Armenian Dashnak officers diary tells of "3.000 turkish babies being burned" !
Kara
That's like saying a German claim that Jewish resistance to Nazi Germany in the Warsaw Ghetto was more important than the mass murder of six million Jews. Please, your brainwashed, the sooner you admit the sooner you can heal. Reread the definition of genocide then try resistance and compare them over and over again and try to see if this helps you, and take deep breaths! Whatever helps you think.
.....when Russian troops captured the Anatolian city from its Turkish defenders at the start of the Armenian Holocaust in 1915 - constitutes the real first genocide of the past century.
Armenians under siege in Van did indeed murder Turks at this time but on nothing like the scale of the massacres visited upon the Armenians in subsequent months...
Turks were looking for a reason to wipe out Armenians.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/cragsite/2001PressReportArticles/Article23.htm
So spare me for your rascist remarks about our "mongolian race". You are ignorant and know very little about facts, and a lot about propaganda! After all, today you hate turks and inflamate hatred towards turks - and tomorrow you may do just the same contra jews!
Kara
The Turks are descendants of nomadic peoples who populated northern Mongolia and the steppes of Central Asia during the early centuries A.D, and gradually moved to their present location. With the creation of the Ottoman Empire in the fourteenth century, the culture of the Turks spread all over the Balkans and the eastern Mediterranean. By their origin, the Turks are closely related to the dominant groups in several central Asian countries, which were previously part of the Soviet Union: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, and Turkmenistan. Although originally from Mongolia, the Turks, especially those in the western section of Turkey, mixed so much with other peoples, that now they can not be racially distinguished from other Mediterranean ethnic groups. The Turkish language is a branch of the Ural-Altaic family. The religion of the Turks is Muslim, dominantly of the Sunni branch. Islamic motifs used to dominate Turkish decorative arts and literature until the twentieth century. Ever since the Ottoman Empire was abolished in favor of the Republic in 1923, the Turks have dedicated much effort to the westernization of their laws, institutions, and many aspects of everyday life. Ethnic Turks, a group of about 60 million people, comprise 90 percent of the population of Turkey, and the largest minority group is Kurdish, in the eastern part of the country. The Turks are the second largest ethnic group in the small island state of Cyprus. There are ethnic Turkish enclaves throughout the Balkans and the Middle East, in most lands that were once ruled by the Ottoman empire. A significant number of Turks, seeking employment, have emigrated to Germany and other western European countries since 1960's. Source: Grolier's Encyclopedia: Turkey
http://www.geohistory.com/GeoHistory/GHMaps/GeoWorld/turks.html
here's another
http://scholar76.tripod.com/turks2.htm
Wheter you like it or not your a mongol, at least most of your race, but yes you did mix with some Jews, Armenians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, Arabs, etc... which is the only reason you like half human and half seljuk ape.
Today I hate Turks like you, not all Turks, because turks like you continue to denie the facts with more propaganda, but go on, it only fuels my purpose. You will face justice, sooner or later, that I can promise you, now more then ever!
I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
Kevork B. Bardakjian, Hitler and the Armenian Genocide (Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Zoryan Institute, 1985).
The text above is the English version of the German document handed to Louis P. Lochner in Berlin. It first appeared in Lochner's What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4. The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28. Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III. For the German original cf. Akten zur Deutschen Auswartigen Politik 1918-1945, Serie D, Band VII, (Baden-Baden, 1956), pp. 171-172.
After a "systematic" plan to wipe out Armenians, you found out that Armenians couldn't be wiped out, when We fought you at modern day Armenia, if only we had known the people we lived with were savages, there could've been more Turk casualties and our land would be ours today, but hey you caught innocent people by suprise, defenseless, until they regrouped to saved their existance.
Nazim Hikmet was a Poet, playwright, novelist, memoirist.
And Communist or not, the man won Nobel peace prize and one of Turkeys few great minds.
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~sibel/poetry/nazim_hikmet.html
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/origin.htm
more links below for the confused.
That's like saying a German claim that Jewish resistance to Nazi Germany in the Warsaw Ghetto was more important than the mass murder of six million Jews. Please, your brainwashed, the sooner you admit the sooner you can heal. Reread the definition of genocide then try resistance and compare them over and over again and try to see if this helps you, and take deep breaths! Whatever helps you think.
.....when Russian troops captured the Anatolian city from its Turkish defenders at the start of the Armenian Holocaust in 1915 - constitutes the real first genocide of the past century.
Armenians under siege in Van did indeed murder Turks at this time but on nothing like the scale of the massacres visited upon the Armenians in subsequent months...
Turks were looking for a reason to wipe out Armenians.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/cragsite/2001PressReportArticles/Article23.htm
The Turks are descendants of nomadic peoples who .... --- ... other western European countries since 1960's. Source: Grolier's Encyclopedia: Turkey
http://www.geohistory.com/GeoHistory/GHMaps/GeoWorld/turks.html
here's another
http://scholar76.tripod.com/turks2.htm
Wheter you like it or not your a mongol, at least most of your race, but yes you did mix with some Jews, Armenians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, Arabs, etc... which is the only reason you like half human and half seljuk ape.
Today I hate Turks like you, not all Turks, because turks like you continue to denie the facts with more propaganda, but go on, it only fuels my purpose. You will face justice, sooner or later, that I can promise you, now more then ever!
A) First of all you still DONT get it : GENETIC affiliation is NOT Linguistic affiliaion. DNA samples show that Turks are more "Middle Eastern" than "Mongol". Check the Facts - and read them! But perhaps you also believe that turks breed like rats, since 50.000 turkomen in 1076 entering Malazgirt has become 75 mio people by now...
B) Im sure you hate EVERY turk that disagrees with you - and thats the problem. THERE IS NO "freedom of speech" when someone says "hey, what about the genocide commited by the ARMENIANS?"!
C) You want me to trust an armenian source on Hitler's remarks? You make me laugh so much, my stomach hurts.
D) These are your words : "Wheter you like it or not your a mongol, at least most of your race, but yes you did mix with some Jews, Armenians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, Arabs, etc... which is the only reason you like half human and half seljuk ape." ... interestingly, you call my peolpe apes, mongols, and other very negative words... As far as I can see it, you are a plain rascist. Every race but turks are humans in your world. Maybe thats why armenians also slaughtered civilian azerbeijdaniz by the thousands in the 90's.
E) And regarding the Hitler quote. Are you telling me, that if Turks hadnt killed armenians, that Hitler wouldnt kill the jews ? You make me laugh. Hitler was obsessed by killing every single jew no matter what Turks have done.
F) There is no "Armenian Holocaust". Forget it.
G) Turkey offered Armenia to establish a NEUTRAL AND OBJECTIVE comission, on a the United Nations platform, so every single detail of 1915 can be examined. If Turkey has something to be held responsible for, we are not afraid. Armenia categorically denies to establish such a comission. They are simply afraid that the TRUE version of history will be written, and not just the armenian version.
H) Until then, turks will continue to MAKE history. Then guys like you can write about us!
But anyway...
For those in here who REALLY want to learn abot the infamous "Hitler quote" who's origins are highly disputable, please go to www.ataa.org, go to the bottom right of the page.
The quote has serious flaws, as it comes from a newspaperman - and was supposedly uttered with respect to the nazi invasion of poland. It wasnt even related to Holocaust.
Kara
Cyrus the Great
04-26-2005, 11:05 PM
The Turks are descendants of nomadic peoples who populated northern Mongolia and the steppes of Central Asia during the early centuries A.D, and gradually moved to their present location. With the creation of the Ottoman Empire in the fourteenth century, the culture of the Turks spread all over the Balkans and the eastern Mediterranean. By their origin, the Turks are closely related to the dominant groups in several central Asian countries, which were previously part of the Soviet Union: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, and Turkmenistan. Although originally from Mongolia, the Turks....
Funny you say that because I always wondered where the turks suddenly come from. I mean the country turkey today used to be half for the persians and half for the greeks. Most of the persian/greek wars happened in that area. I was always very confused as how the turks got to be there and how come they don't look persian, greek or even arab.
Now that you mention it turks do look like mongols, especially their eyes.
Funny you say that because I always wondered where the turks suddenly come from. I mean the country turkey today used to be half for the persians and half for the greeks. Most of the persian/greek wars happened in that area. I was always very confused as how the turks got to be there and how come they don't look persian, greek or even arab.
Now that you mention it turks do look like mongols, especially their eyes.
Well... if Greece & Iran have the guts, then they are welcome to try and come split us up again :D We will make you feel very welcome :p
But since the last posts in here have been extremely rasict in nature (its fun how suddenly this forum got to be against turks because they have mongolian roots), I can tell you that Dr. Michael Hammer and other scientists estimate that the Mongolian influx into the current turkish DNA gene pool is no more than approximately 20%. The rest is Middle Eastern (Haplogroups G1, and J).
But before the Greeks and Iranians try any "fun stuff", I would much rather worry about the timing of the upcomming storm against Iran to remove their pimp mullahs from the power :D As for Greece.... well... if they continue to fool around and write bouncing checks to the EU, they too will feel the heat. Just wait and see....
Kara
Womble
04-27-2005, 04:40 AM
Well... if Greece & Iran have the guts, then they are welcome to try and come split us up again :D We will make you feel very welcome :p
Ah yes, the infamous Turkish hospitality- of the kind Salah ad-Din offered to the Crusaders ;)
its fun how suddenly this forum got to be against turks because they have mongolian roots)
The forum? I thought it was just one of the posters...
The Mongols kicked some serious butt, after all. Defeating the infamous Assassins of Alamut- something the combined force of Europe and the Muslim empire couldn't do- was no small achievement.
Ah yes, the infamous Turkish hospitality- of the kind Salah ad-Din offered to the Crusaders ;)
The forum? I thought it was just one of the posters...
The Mongols kicked some serious butt, after all. Defeating the infamous Assassins of Alamut- something the combined force of Europe and the Muslim empire couldn't do- was no small achievement.
Sorry Womble :)
You are absolutely right! When some one calls turks for seljuk apes, it just makes my blood boil, cause it's outright rascism... But you are absolutely right.
Regards
Kara
Kara no offence but I really believe in mass killings of Armenians by the Turks. I think it is a horrible stain of Turkish history and I really think that your country must acknowledge the fact; if only for the fact that something did happen.
Kara no offence but I really believe in mass killings of Armenians by the Turks. I think it is a horrible stain of Turkish history and I really think that your country must acknowledge the fact; if only for the fact that something did happen.
Still waiting for the checks on all the estates and property lost by my family in 1915.
Allegro
04-27-2005, 10:42 AM
See the different angles of different kind of people:
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=126586&highlight=armenian
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=126545&highlight=armenian
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=126346&highlight=armenian
Kara no offence but I really believe in mass killings of Armenians by the Turks. I think it is a horrible stain of Turkish history and I really think that your country must acknowledge the fact; if only for the fact that something did happen.
No offence taken Mil. Turkey has always admitted that massacres and mass killings occured. It just that we dont accept the notion "genocide".
523.000 civilian turks were killed by armenian militia in the same period.
Turkey's main thesis is, that both side committed acts of warcrimes. Not something we are proud of - it is indeed a stain on our history.
That said, Turkey has recently offered Armenia to establish a joint history commission. If this commission finds us guilty in genocide, we will apologize and pay our dues. If not, Armenians should stop their anti-turkish propaganda.
Armenia has, of course, refused to establish such a comission.
The European Parliament has today sent the Armenian president a letter, urging him to support the turkish request, so this thing can be analyzed and conclusions drawn once and for all. More than 100 parliament members signed the letter.
I assume, Armenia once again will reject!
Kara
Still waiting for the checks on all the estates and property lost by my family in 1915.
Still waiting for Armenia to pull back from Nahcivan and Karaback which they took from Azerbaidjan, while they massacred their people and even cut off their mens penises so no-one would see that the dead men were circumsized muslims!
And oh.... you are going to wait for a looooong time !
minusthejihad
04-27-2005, 12:57 PM
Yes, but let's remember that when the FSU fell and the Soviets left Baku, random Armenians were pulled from buses in Baku and killed in the street by Azerbaijanis. These are direct stories I heard from my family in Russia at the time.
On the other hand, compared to other Muslims both Azerbaijanis and Turks were very good to the Jews. It is a tough quandry, many guilty parties.
There were quite large pogroms of Armenians during the Baku riots in 1905.
minusthejihad
04-27-2005, 01:23 PM
There were quite large pogroms of Armenians during the Baku riots in 1905.
True, but I was talking about the early 90's. How some things never change!
Kara no offence but I really believe in mass killings of Armenians by the Turks. I think it is a horrible stain of Turkish history and I really think that your country must acknowledge the fact; if only for the fact that something did happen.
no offence sure..
but i don't believe "genocide",because i know my history very well,i won't post looong articles about Turkish history but sure i know my own history more than you all. I will never believe "genocide" happened,and noone can blame me for that..
Kara you don't have explain some historical truths ,cause some of them will never believe us..
Eilin to tell you the truth I have only one book on Ottoman Empire/Turkey that deals with the time:
A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805068848/103-2995823-2697442?v=glance
Any other literature you might recommend?
Eilin to tell you the truth I have only one book on Ottoman Empire/Turkey that deals with the time:
A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805068848/103-2995823-2697442?v=glance
Any other literature you might recommend?
Shalom Mil..
I'm gonna read it - on your advice :) It seems to look quite good, according to the reviews on Amazon...
LeHitraOt
Kara from Turkey
Gilgamesh
04-27-2005, 03:24 PM
I have noidea of the historical details of the incedent or it's context.
I know the story in vauge, not good enough for setting up a strong opinion.
I pretty much against the idea of describing the event as a genocide, because of the weak proof of criminal intent of the common Turkish soldier. Massacre is one kind of a war crime, genocide is another wholey different.
However, one important detail was engraved on my mind, perhapes because of it's relevence to my Jewish history. German officers wittnessed, sometimes led, and maybe even intiated the massacre of Armenians by the Turks.
I am quite certain the common Turkish soldier had no idea of the greater picture or the magnituted of the massacres, but the German officers certainly had. Add to that, the fact that by WWI, the Germans already carried out at least one genocide of African tribes at thier Afrian colony in Namimbia.
So it's all coming back to the Germans... I have no idea how good this historical avenue was explored.
Many Armenians get the picture that Israel does not recognize the Genocide that occured in the begning of the 20th century, but thats not true.
In Israel, and especially in Universitys and lecture halls there are many intellectuals from professors to hisorians who do recognize that there was a massacre.
I think that Israel got the bad reputation because of two things;
1) Israel and its ties with Turkey
2) Jewish professors like Professor Lewis, whom was in hot water a couple of years back regarding the Armenian genocide.
But overall, Armenians and jews are not the best of friends. Not many do know that Armenian jews were also victims of the Genocide.
Pushtak: When talking about Israeli or any state's recognition of the Armenian Genocide, we are talking about a formal condmenation letter from the State of Israel, condmening the genocide and holding the Ottoman Empire acountable. Furthermore, I would argue that demanding Turkey to recognize its crime against the Armenians would another part of the argument.
If an accedimic or an indepenent intelectual presents his/her view on an issue doesnot neccsarily reflects any state's official policy.
best wishes,
Keko
I have noidea of the historical details of the incedent or it's context.
I know the story in vauge, not good enough for setting up a strong opinion.
I pretty much against the idea of describing the event as a genocide, because of the weak proof of criminal intent of the common Turkish soldier. Massacre is one kind of a war crime, genocide is another wholey different.
However, one important detail was engraved on my mind, perhapes because of it's relevence to my Jewish history. German officers wittnessed, sometimes led, and maybe even intiated the massacre of Armenians by the Turks.
I am quite certain the common Turkish soldier had no idea of the greater picture or the magnituted of the massacres, but the German officers certainly had. Add to that, the fact that by WWI, the Germans already carried out at least one genocide of African tribes at thier Afrian colony in Namimbia.
So it's all coming back to the Germans... I have no idea how good this historical avenue was explored.
Shalom Gilgamesh!
Thanks for you wise words! Your views on this matter is in fact what Turkey has said for many years: That there has never been a systematic attempt, and thus it cannot be classified as a genocide. That said, there were many massacres - and Turkey has never ever denied this. It is basicly a matter of whether it surmounts into a "genocide" or not. And massacres were also commited by armenians against turks, although I'm very sure that far more armenians died than turks. In our records, 523.000 civilian turks were killed by the armenian milita in 1912-1918. Not a small number. And according to a population count in 1914, there were a total of 1.2 million armenians in Ottoman Turkey- hence the "1.5 million killed" is an inflated number - which Turkey has always claimed.
Just recently, Turkey has asked Armenia to open up their archives, since Turkey has already done so. Turkey wants an independant international comission to look at the archives, and draw a final conclusion once and for all.
If that comission conludes there was a genocide, Turkey will naturally live up to her obligations. But when a nation is accused of commiting a crime, international law must apply out of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". In the case of Turkey, we are quilty until proven innocent - but many countries wont even let us prove that!
Armenia has so far rejected the idea of an independant comission. That tells a lot!
LeHitraOt
Kara
Pushtak: When talking about Israeli or any state's recognition of the Armenian Genocide, we are talking about a formal condmenation letter from the State of Israel, condmening the genocide and holding the Ottoman Empire acountable. Furthermore, I would argue that demanding Turkey to recognize its crime against the Armenians would another part of the argument.
If an accedimic or an indepenent intelectual presents his/her view on an issue doesnot neccsarily reflects any state's official policy.
best wishes,
Keko
Wel... Keko... Since you are from "Kurdistan" (tell me again, where on the map is it exactly!?) - you better know, that the massacres commited against the armenians, where done by turkish kurds! You bear a lot of the responsability for what happened.
Just F.Y.I.
Kara
Cyrus the Great
04-28-2005, 03:29 AM
Just wondering keko, are you an iranian kurd , iraqi kurd or turkish kurd ?
Womble
04-28-2005, 07:34 AM
Wel... Keko... Since you are from "Kurdistan" (tell me again, where on the map is it exactly!?)
Hey now, that was low. :mad:
Just recently, Turkey has asked Armenia to open up their archives, since Turkey has already done so.
LeHitraOt
Kara
Not just Armenia,other countries such as France and Russia must open their archives because anything happened (armenians call it genocide) Russia and especially France not innocent at all.
Hey now, that was low. :mad:
Sorry man - You're right. I was out of line ! Forgive, and lets remain friends :)
Kara
Saeyko
04-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Still waiting for Armenia to pull back from Nahcivan and Karaback which they took from Azerbaidjan, while they massacred their people and even cut off their mens penises so no-one would see that the dead men were circumsized muslims!
And oh.... you are going to wait for a looooong time !
Dear Kara, if you have any doubts about Karaback aka Artzakh, being Ancient Armenian land or Azeri, here's an undoubtable source for you.
-- Confidential Agency Studies Acknowledge Nagorno Karabagh as "Armenia's Cultural and Religious Center"
WASHINGTON, DC—An analysis of recently declassified Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) documents reveals a pattern over the past twenty-five years of official - although confidential—acknowledgement of the fact that Nagorno Karabagh is a historic part of Armenia, reported the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA).
The declassified documents - some from as back as the 1970s, confirm that successive U.S. Administrations have known that:
1) Nagorno Karabagh is historically Armenian;
2) Nagorno Karabagh has always maintained a legitimate claim to be reunited with Armenia;
3) Azerbaijani hostility toward Armenians in the late 1980s and early 1990s was not based on an Azerbaijani claim to Nagorno Karabagh, but, rather, was the outlet for growing domestic Azerbaijani frustrations over political, economic and demographic shifts that increased the gap in living standards between Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Key excerpts of these reports are provided below:
[View the excerpts in Adobe Acrobat (PDF) format by clicking]
* A 1990 CIA chronology of Nagorno Karabagh, prepared in August of 1990, included the following entry: "1921-23: New Soviet Government makes Nagorno Karabakh - historically an Armenian area—an autonomous region within the Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan."
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif
* A CIA 1988 study on the Caucasus confirms the historical record of Nagorno Karabagh's status as "Armenia's cultural and religious center." The study specifically noted that, "Karabakh through the centuries remained semiautonomous under the rule of Armenian princes even when the rest of Armenia was under Persian and Turkish tutelage."
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0004.gif
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0009.gif
* The same 1988 study, reports that, "Azeri animosity toward the Armenians has been intensified by political, economic, and demographic trends that have adversely affected the political status of Azeris and increased the gap in living standards between Azerbaijan and Armenia. In particular, the rapid expansion of Azerbaijan's young adult population has put enormous strains on the republic's capacity to provide adequate jobs, housing, and education. Azeri frustration has found an outlet in attacks on Armenians."
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0004.gif
* A 1978 CIA report on Soviet minorities issues, notes that, "the inhabitants of another turbulent area in the Caucasus, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, are able to make a better argument that their oblast should be transferred from one republic to another. The Karabakh Oblast is part of Azerbaydzhan, yet over 80 percent of its population is Armenian and it lies close to the border of the Armenian Republic. In 1975, according to the Azerbaydzhan Republic newspaper, virtually the entire leadership of the Karabakh Oblast was ousted for supporting a movement to detach the oblast from Azerbaydzhan and join it to Armenia."
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000518375/0000518375_0001.gif
To access images of these and other public CIA documents, visit:
http://www.foia.cia.gov/search_options.asp
Saeyko
04-28-2005, 02:04 PM
I have noidea of the historical details of the incedent or it's context.
I know the story in vauge, not good enough for setting up a strong opinion.
I pretty much against the idea of describing the event as a genocide, because of the weak proof of criminal intent of the common Turkish soldier. Massacre is one kind of a war crime, genocide is another wholey different.
However, one important detail was engraved on my mind, perhapes because of it's relevence to my Jewish history. German officers wittnessed, sometimes led, and maybe even intiated the massacre of Armenians by the Turks.
I am quite certain the common Turkish soldier had no idea of the greater picture or the magnituted of the massacres, but the German officers certainly had. Add to that, the fact that by WWI, the Germans already carried out at least one genocide of African tribes at thier Afrian colony in Namimbia.
So it's all coming back to the Germans... I have no idea how good this historical avenue was explored.
Dear Giglamesh, that's like saying, most German soldiers Anti Semetic soldiers weren't responisble for killing Jews, they were brainwashed and had no idea of the greater picture. Going back to what I was saying, no one can justify for the killing of innocent people, not 6million, not 1.5million not 1 individual, no matter what reasons drove them to madness, that's inhuman.
Called it massacre call it whatever you want. Turks killed over a million innocent men, women and children! sooner you admit it sooner we can heal!
The common Turkish soldier, just like the German soldier was fueled by racism, jealousy and greed, killing for money, land and for the power of darkness. You have again suprised me on how you can use Jewish Holocaust to try and convince readers Armenian Genocide never happened, how can you believe such propaganda put forth by genocide makers(Turks in this case), when Jews themselves faced such evil crimes and had to deal with and still deal with such denial. Only difference is that Armenian, being ravaged and destroyed for centuries at the time was at no interest to most European countries or the World, Armenia was not in the center of Europe and Turkey was no Germany, world wasn't fighting against it, so the Armenian genocide was covered up pretty well, our Genocide can be compared to Genocides like in Cambodia or Darfur, places where the world could give less F&^K about, because those countries aren't as rich as Germany or as powerful so there's nothing for them to gain, only loose.
And Please Gilgamesh, don't slap me in the face again, user your brain, you have no reason to be brainwashed, please read a little about the Armenian Genocide, it was systematic and planned. I suggest you "The Burning Tigris" as i have before, because the facts in this book can not be argued, all the sources are there.
What Sarid wrote after trip to Armenia.
Armenian Genocide was very important for the initiators, since that have made some amendments to the agenda with the consideration of our requests', Knesset member Yossi Sarid writes in the article entitled `Return from Armenia', Yerkir online reported. According to the Israeli politician, the fact of the Armenian Genocide cannot be questioned and the debates on this issue going on in the Israeli parliament sometimes bear rather stupid character. When stressing the necessity of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Israel Sarid writes that to equate the Holocaust and Genocide is very important both for Armenians and Jews, but it is much more important for the whole mankind.
Thank you Sarid.
Wel... Keko... Since you are from "Kurdistan" (tell me again, where on the map is it exactly!?) - you better know, that the massacres commited against the armenians, where done by turkish kurds! You bear a lot of the responsability for what happened.
Just F.Y.I.
Kara
You may as well know that the political decision of the masscre came from Sultan Abdulhamid. And unfortunatley, the Kurds played a nasty rule in the genocide. However, I have met many Armenians, and they do understand the Kurdish situation in the massacre. In fact, the Ottoman Empire, ruled by Turks, is the official responsible guy.
Yes, I am Kurdish from Kurdistan. Sorry to disapoint you.
Just wondering keko, are you an iranian kurd , iraqi kurd or turkish kurd ?
Thanks for the question, but I am none of those. If the Kurds had the choice, they would rather to have their independence.
Dear Giglamesh, that's like saying, most German soldiers Anti Semetic soldiers weren't responisble for killing Jews, they were brainwashed and had no idea of the greater picture. Going back to what I was saying, no one can justify for the killing of innocent people, not 6million, not 1.5million not 1 individual, no matter what reasons drove them to madness, that's inhuman.
Called it massacre call it whatever you want. Turks killed over a million innocent men, women and children! sooner you admit it sooner we can heal!
The common Turkish soldier, just like the German soldier was fueled by racism, jealousy and greed, killing for money, land and for the power of darkness. You have again suprised me on how you can use Jewish Holocaust to try and convince readers Armenian Genocide never happened, how can you believe such propaganda put forth by genocide makers(Turks in this case), when Jews themselves faced such evil crimes and had to deal with and still deal with such denial. Only difference is that Armenian, being ravaged and destroyed for centuries at the time was at no interest to most European countries or the World, Armenia was not in the center of Europe and Turkey was no Germany, world wasn't fighting against it, so the Armenian genocide was covered up pretty well, our Genocide can be compared to Genocides like in Cambodia or Darfur, places where the world could give less F&^K about, because those countries aren't as rich as Germany or as powerful so there's nothing for them to gain, only loose.
And Please Gilgamesh, don't slap me in the face again, user your brain, you have no reason to be brainwashed, please read a little about the Armenian Genocide, it was systematic and planned. I suggest you "The Burning Tigris" as i have before, because the facts in this book can not be argued, all the sources are there.
What Sarid wrote after trip to Armenia.
Armenian Genocide was very important for the initiators, since that have made some amendments to the agenda with the consideration of our requests', Knesset member Yossi Sarid writes in the article entitled `Return from Armenia', Yerkir online reported. According to the Israeli politician, the fact of the Armenian Genocide cannot be questioned and the debates on this issue going on in the Israeli parliament sometimes bear rather stupid character. When stressing the necessity of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Israel Sarid writes that to equate the Holocaust and Genocide is very important both for Armenians and Jews, but it is much more important for the whole mankind.
Thank you Sarid.
Saeyko: A great reply. In addition, as a Kurd, I condemn the inhumane rule of the Kurds in the massacre, but again, the official blame is on Turks.
Back from Armenia
By Yossi Sarid
"But the eyes closed to the Armenian victims were what made it possible for all the murderers of the world to come out of their holes and slaughter, knowing there was no shield to protect small and weak nations, which are such easy prey.
The alliance between the victims is very important for the Armenians, and important for us; the main importance is meant for the entire human race. Knowing our species, its impulses and talent for destruction, we cannot accept victims without murderers, genocide without the responsible. An orphaned genocide is the father of the next genocide."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=569381&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0
Womble
04-28-2005, 10:37 PM
Thank you Sarid.
Sorry Saeyko, but the easiest way to chase me away from a worthy cause is by telling me that Yossi Sarid also supports it.
...
The common Turkish soldier, just like the German soldier was fueled by racism, jealousy and greed, killing for money, land and for the power of darkness.
...
Thank you Sarid.
And what fuelled the common Dashnak Militia that made the folliwing killings of turks ?
1910 Muş (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 February 1914 Kars-Ardahan (30 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (44 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis (16 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Muş (80 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis-Hizan (113 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (5 thousand 200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Haskay (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Dutak (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Bitlis (29 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Muradiye (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Van (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1915 Van (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1915 Muş-Akçan (19 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1915 Müküs (126 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (40 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (123 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 January 1916 Terme (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 April 1916 Van-Reşadiye (15 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1916 Muş (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Van-Tatvan(thousand 600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Bitlis (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Pasinler (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Tercan (563 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Van (44 thousand 233 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Malazgirt (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Bitlis (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Köprüköy-Van (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (80 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Of (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Trabzon (2 thousand 86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Van (3 yüz civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 May 1916 Bayezid (14 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Van-Abbasağa (14 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Edremid-Vastan (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak-Serir (45 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 June 1916 Müküs-Serhan (121 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 August 1916 Bitlis (311 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Sarıkamış (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Tiksin-Ağadeve (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Nahçivan (4 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 January 1919 Zaruşat (86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 January 1919 Kilis (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 January 1919 Antep (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 January 1919 Kars (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 February 1919 Adana-Pozantı (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 May 1919 Osmaniye (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
13 June 1919 Pasinler (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 June 1919 Iğdır (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (803 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (695 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 July 1919 Akçakale (180 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 July 1919 Kağızman (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 July 1919 Kars-Göle (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Mescitli (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Gülyantepe (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kağızman (6 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 July 1919 Mescitli (20 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Bulaklı (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Pasinler (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
24 July 1919 Kars-Kağızman (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1919 Muhtelif köyler (2 thousand 502 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (153 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (426 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
September 1919 Allahüekber (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 September 1919 Ãœnye (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 September 1919 Sarıkamış (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
November 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 November 1919 Maraş (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 November 1919 Ulukışla (7 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Göle (600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Kars (3 thousand 945 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Haramivartan (138 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (64 thousand 408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (5 thousand 307 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1920 Kars civarı (561 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 February 1920 Zaruşat (2 thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 February 1920 Şuregel (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
10 February 1920 Çıldır (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 February 1920 Pozantı (40 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (400 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
16 March 1920 Kağızman (720 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 March 1920 Şuregel-Zaruşat (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 April 1920 Gümrü (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 April 1920 Kars (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 May 1920 Kars (thousand 774 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1920 Kars (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Kars-Erzurum (408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Zengebasar (thousand 500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
27 July 1920 Erzurum (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1920 Kars-Erzurum (27 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Oltu (650 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Kars-Erzurum (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 October 1920 Bayburt (thousand 387 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
20 October 1920 Göle (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
17 October 1920 Pasinler (9 thousand 287 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 October 1920 Tortum (3 thousand 700 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 October 1920 Erzurum (8 thousand 439 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 October 1920 Kars civarı (10 thousand 693)
October 1920 Aşkale (889 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 December 1920 Kosor (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 December 1920 Göle (508 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kosor (122 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kars-Zeytun (28 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Sarıkamış (thousand 975 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 December 1920 Göle (194 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1920 Kars-Digor (14 thousand 620 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 December 1920 Sarıkamış (5 thousand 337 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
29 November 1920 Zaruşat (thousand 26 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
December 1920 Erivan (192 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Nahçivan (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Bayburt (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Arpaçay (148 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise (6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise ( 6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1921 Zenibasar (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Pasinler (53 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Erzurum (thousand 215 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Hınıs (870 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Tercan (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
March 1922 Maraş (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia).
Yesterday night i watched a discussion program on tv,it started 12 o'clock and ended morning 5,two armenian journalist and one turkish historian almost 5 hours discussed about the armenian issue,and once more i realize that Turkish Armenians completely different from Diaspora Armenians. You should heard how Turkish citizen Armenians called to Diaspora Armenians; Faschist,narrow minded,bigoted...etc. One thing sure turkish armenians dont want that diaspora armenians involved in and mess up their lives.
Cyrus the Great
04-29-2005, 07:04 AM
I persoanlly don't know whether the turks are telling the truth or Armenians are. But I love Armenians, they are great people with a great culture. They are definately an asset in that region. I have many Armenian friends and all of them think that there actually was a genocide against their people. My friends are very honest people who have nothing against Turks and would never say something like that just to annoy Turks.
And what fuelled the common Dashnak Militia that made the folliwing killings of turks ?
1910 Muş (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 February 1914 Kars-Ardahan (30 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (44 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis (16 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Muş (80 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis-Hizan (113 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (5 thousand 200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Haskay (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Dutak (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Bitlis (29 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Muradiye (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Van (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1915 Van (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1915 Muş-Akçan (19 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1915 Müküs (126 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (40 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (123 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 January 1916 Terme (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 April 1916 Van-Reşadiye (15 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1916 Muş (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Van-Tatvan(thousand 600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Bitlis (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Pasinler (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Tercan (563 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Van (44 thousand 233 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Malazgirt (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Bitlis (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Köprüköy-Van (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (80 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Of (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Trabzon (2 thousand 86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Van (3 yüz civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 May 1916 Bayezid (14 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Van-Abbasağa (14 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Edremid-Vastan (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak-Serir (45 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 June 1916 Müküs-Serhan (121 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 August 1916 Bitlis (311 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Sarıkamış (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Tiksin-Ağadeve (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Nahçivan (4 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 January 1919 Zaruşat (86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 January 1919 Kilis (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 January 1919 Antep (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 January 1919 Kars (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 February 1919 Adana-Pozantı (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 May 1919 Osmaniye (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
13 June 1919 Pasinler (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 June 1919 Iğdır (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (803 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (695 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 July 1919 Akçakale (180 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 July 1919 Kağızman (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 July 1919 Kars-Göle (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Mescitli (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Gülyantepe (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kağızman (6 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 July 1919 Mescitli (20 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Bulaklı (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Pasinler (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
24 July 1919 Kars-Kağızman (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1919 Muhtelif köyler (2 thousand 502 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (153 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (426 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
September 1919 Allahüekber (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 September 1919 Ãœnye (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 September 1919 Sarıkamış (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
November 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 November 1919 Maraş (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 November 1919 Ulukışla (7 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Göle (600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Kars (3 thousand 945 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Haramivartan (138 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (64 thousand 408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (5 thousand 307 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1920 Kars civarı (561 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 February 1920 Zaruşat (2 thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 February 1920 Şuregel (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
10 February 1920 Çıldır (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 February 1920 Pozantı (40 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (400 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
16 March 1920 Kağızman (720 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 March 1920 Şuregel-Zaruşat (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 April 1920 Gümrü (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 April 1920 Kars (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 May 1920 Kars (thousand 774 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1920 Kars (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Kars-Erzurum (408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Zengebasar (thousand 500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
27 July 1920 Erzurum (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1920 Kars-Erzurum (27 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Oltu (650 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Kars-Erzurum (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 October 1920 Bayburt (thousand 387 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
20 October 1920 Göle (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
17 October 1920 Pasinler (9 thousand 287 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 October 1920 Tortum (3 thousand 700 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 October 1920 Erzurum (8 thousand 439 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 October 1920 Kars civarı (10 thousand 693)
October 1920 Aşkale (889 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 December 1920 Kosor (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 December 1920 Göle (508 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kosor (122 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kars-Zeytun (28 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Sarıkamış (thousand 975 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 December 1920 Göle (194 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1920 Kars-Digor (14 thousand 620 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 December 1920 Sarıkamış (5 thousand 337 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
29 November 1920 Zaruşat (thousand 26 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
December 1920 Erivan (192 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Nahçivan (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Bayburt (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Arpaçay (148 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise (6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise ( 6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1921 Zenibasar (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Pasinler (53 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Erzurum (thousand 215 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Hınıs (870 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Tercan (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
March 1922 Maraş (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia).
Signed,
Sultan Evdulhamid Pasha ;)
Ms. Kara:
When it comes to the Armenian genocide, you openly blame the Kurds. As Kurds, we do recognize the rule of the Kurdish militias participating in the genocide for Sultan Avdulahamid.
Otherwise, the list of the "murdered Turks" by Armenians you posted makes no sense: Maras, Wan, Mus and Kars were inhabitited by Kurds and Armenians. Even in nowdays, there is not a single Turk living there, so how could "thousand Turks" be killed in Mus, Wan, Maras or Kars?
best
I persoanlly don't know whether the turks are telling the truth or Armenians are. But I love Armenians, they are great people with a great culture. They are definately an asset in that region. I have many Armenian friends and all of them think that there actually was a genocide against their people. My friends are very honest people who have nothing against Turks and would never say something like that just to annoy Turks.
I suggest looking at independent studies regarding the genocide, and then you should have no problem in realizing the decision-maker of the massacre.
best
Cyrus you can love Armenians,its not the issue,but one thing i am sure Armenians situation in Turkey far far better than in Iran because we have democracy!!
Kara my mother is also kurdish from Urfa,and my cousin is a PKK terrorist,now most probably in North Iraq or Switzerland or maybe in Germany(we really don't know where is he now,and don't care anymore) And what I've learned from my family,yes thousand Turks be killed in Mus, Wan, Maras, Kars and other cities by armenians and armenians killed by turks and kurds.
Cyrus the Great
04-29-2005, 09:23 AM
Cyrus you can love Armenians,its not the issue,but one thing i am sure Armenians situation in Turkey far far better than in Iran because we have democracy!!
Kara my mother is also kurdish from Urfa,and my cousin is a PKK terrorist,now most probably in North Iraq or Switzerland or maybe in Germany(we really don't know where is he now,and don't care anymore) And what I've learned from my family,yes thousand Turks be killed in Mus, Wan, Maras, Kars and other cities by armenians and armenians killed by turks and kurds.
Yes exactly, that's what you have in Turkey, "Deomcracy". You oppress your minorites (i.e. Kurds) all the time and you claim to be democratic. Your people still practice honor killing. What kind of a democracy is this ? Democracy does not just mean free elections, it means protection of rights of everyone including minorities and women.
I know that the Iranian regime also oppresses minorities but I have never claimed that Iran is a deomcracy. If you read my previous posts you will see that I hate the Iranian regime more than any americans or israelis.
Yes exactly, that's what you have in Turkey, "Deomcracy". You oppress your minorites (i.e. Kurds) all the time and you claim to be democratic. Your people still practice honor killing. What kind of a democracy is this ? Democracy does not just mean free elections, it means protection of rights of everyone including minorities and women.
I know that the Iranian regime also oppresses minorities but I have never claimed that Iran is a deomcracy. If you read my previous posts you will see that I hate the Iranian regime more than any americans or israelis.
Look who is talking is it iranian origin? :eek: Ah please we need to learn democracy from Iran,please teach us this Iranian Style "democracy":o
Honor Killing is kurdish job,12 million kurds living in Turkey and this is an important part of their tradition,Turks and Kurds have different traditions,different identity,I just shame that my mother kurd! I told my mother I never wanted to be her daughter(though my mother open minded) because woman=animal for kurds,for arabs and for iranians..What about honor killings in Iran?
By the way what is mean "rejm" can you explain me,because i am poor turkish who don't know what is mean rejm,you know in Turkey people are not aware about that :o (you maybe hate iranian regime when you talk about honour killings you should consider rejm in your homeland)
I just get sick from our muslim "friends" "?"
Cyrus the Great I go too far,i have no right to blame you for iranian regime and have no right to insult you because of your origin,forgive me I am just so sensitive nowadays about such comments.
Yes exactly, that's what you have in Turkey, "Deomcracy". You oppress your minorites (i.e. Kurds) all the time and you claim to be democratic. Your people still practice honor killing. What kind of a democracy is this ? Democracy does not just mean free elections, it means protection of rights of everyone including minorities and women.
I know that the Iranian regime also oppresses minorities but I have never claimed that Iran is a deomcracy. If you read my previous posts you will see that I hate the Iranian regime more than any americans or israelis.
Oh really ? Turgut Özal was kurdish turkish - and he became our president. It's fun how you only read the part of Keko's message that you can use to defame Turkey. Note that he mentioned, that his kurdish parents told him the same as my parents told me : That armenians slaughtered kurds, turks and anyone else in the way of their homeland nationalistic nazi-ideology!
Go on - hate Iran, I dont care - but kurds in Turkey today have the same rights as anyone else. 10 years ago they didnt, but today things have really changed. Even Leyla Zana admitted to that, and she's our of prison with all here roommates. I dissapproved then that she was put in prison, and condemmed it - but they are ou tnow, they have their own party etc. ect.
We can give them all that - but if some kurds in Turkey want their OWN state, they better arm themselves. Cause we aint gonna give it - they HAVE to take it...
Kara
Signed,
Sultan Evdulhamid Pasha ;)
KEKO
Thats way below the belt. Many of those people on that list were Ottoman kurds - your ancestors. I would be ashamed to make fun of a list of 523.000 dead Ottoman turks, tatars, azeris and kurds!
Kara
Dear Kara, if you have any doubts about Karaback aka Artzakh, being Ancient Armenian land or Azeri, here's an undoubtable source for you.
-- Confidential Agency Studies Acknowledge Nagorno Karabagh as "Armenia's Cultural and Religious Center"
WASHINGTON, DC—An analysis of recently declassified Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) documents reveals a pattern over the past twenty-five years of official - although confidential—acknowledgement of the fact that Nagorno Karabagh is a historic part of Armenia, reported the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA).
The declassified documents - some from as back as the 1970s, confirm that successive U.S. Administrations have known that:
1) Nagorno Karabagh is historically Armenian;
2) Nagorno Karabagh has always maintained a legitimate claim to be reunited with Armenia;
Interesting........
I dont care about what Karabakh was "historically". I care about the things armenians DID TO THE AZERIS in Karabakh with their hands, while their mouths shouted "genocide! genocide" about the events in 1915.
But of course, the most ressourcefull nation, the worlds only superpower, the US and its Department of State must be wrong according to the armenians, since they claim Armenia commited mass deportations and massacres against the Azeris !
Kara
-------
Source: U.S. Department of State, History of the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict, March 30, 2001. Abridged version with comments by ASA).
"At the end of 1991, the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan escalated into war. Between 1992 and 1994 almost 20 percent of the Azerbaijan's territory, including six districts of Azerbaijan in addition to Nagorno-Karabagh, were under Armenian control, resulting in mass population displacement within the country. The State estimated the number of internally displaced persons at 778,500 by the end of 1993, and 604,574 as of 1 March 1998. UNHCR estimates are lower, with 551,000 persons at the end of 1997." (International Organization for Migration, 1999, Migration in the CIS 1997-1998, 1999 Edition, p. 40)
"More than 568,000 persons from western regions of Azerbaijan under Armenian occupation since 1993, including 42,072 from Nagorno-Karabakh, remained displaced within the country. Most were displaced from regions just outside Nagorno-Karabakh, including Fizuli (133,725 persons), Agdam (128,584 persons), Lachin (63,007 persons), Kelbadjar (59,274), Jabrayil (58,834 persons), Gubadli (31, 276), Zangilan (34,797), Terter (5,171) and Adjabedi (3,358)." (U.S. Committee for Refugees (USCR), 31 December 2000, World Refugee Survey 2000, Washington D.C.: Country Report Azerbaijan)
"The more than 600,000 displaced Azerbaijanis constitute the largest group of IDPs in the Caucasus. The displaced include the entire Azeri population of Nagorno-Karabakh and a wide area surrounding it. They comprise a broad range of professionals, farmers, and workers and include men, women, and children of all ages. Because of the ethnic basis of displacement in Azerbaijan, the IDPs there are virtually all Azeri (Turkic) peoples. Most of them are nominally Shia Muslim, but many of those from Lachin and Kelbajar Provinces are Sunni Muslim Kurds." (Greene, Thomas, 1998, The Forsaken People, "Internal Displacement in the North Caucasus, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia" (Washington D.C: The Brookings Institution, p. 254)
"The overwhelming majority, over 99 per cent, of the internally displaced population are ethnic Azeris. The remainder are some 4,000 Kurds from the Lachin and Kelbajar districts and several hundred persons of various other ethnic groups, mostly Russian." (United Nations Commission on Human Rights (CHR), 25 January 1999, Report of the Representative of the Secretary-General, Mr. Francis M. Deng, Profiles in displacement: Azerbaijan (E/CN.4/1999/79/Add.1), para. 31)
''An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound.'' Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990.
Cyrus the Great
04-29-2005, 01:28 PM
Look who is talking is it iranian origin? Ah please we need to learn democracy from Iran,please teach us this Iranian Style "democracy"
Honor Killing is kurdish job,12 million kurds living in Turkey and this is an important part of their tradition,Turks and Kurds have different traditions,different identity,I just shame that my mother kurd! I told my mother I never wanted to be her daughter(though my mother open minded) because woman=animal for kurds,for arabs and for iranians..What about honor killings in Iran?
By the way what is mean "rejm" can you explain me,because i am poor turkish who don't know what is mean rejm,you know in Turkey people are not aware about that (you maybe hate iranian regime when you talk about honour killings you should consider rejm in your homeland)
I just get sick from our muslim "friends" "?"
First of all I am not muslim, I am Zoroastrian.
I don't know what "rejm" means. I have never heard of this word before. I don't even know how to pronounce it. If anyone knows what it means please tell me.
Like I said I never said Iran has democracy. I agree that compared to Iran , Turkey is a great deomocracy.
But because I don't like the current Iranian regime does not mean that I don't like Iran. I am very proud to be an Iranian and I will stand anyone who insults Iranians. If you want to insult our arab overlords (i.e the iranian regime) go ahead , you would just maKe maybe happy , but don't you ever dare to insult the Iranian people. Iran is a great civilization with a great culture. We were the first civilization with a Monotheist religion (i.e. Zoroastrianism). At a time when Greeks and Egyptians worshiped many gods we only had one God, the Ahura Mazda. This is well before Judaism was born. Many of the values that western countries cherish so much originated from great Persia. Don't you ever forget that our civilization is 4000 years old making us one of the oldest civilizations on earth.
Look who is talking is it iranian origin? :eek: Ah please we need to learn democracy from Iran,please teach us this Iranian Style "democracy":o
Honor Killing is kurdish job,12 million kurds living in Turkey and this is an important part of their tradition,Turks and Kurds have different traditions,different identity,I just shame that my mother kurd! I told my mother I never wanted to be her daughter(though my mother open minded) because woman=animal for kurds,for arabs and for iranians..What about honor killings in Iran?
By the way what is mean "rejm" can you explain me,because i am poor turkish who don't know what is mean rejm,you know in Turkey people are not aware about that :o (you maybe hate iranian regime when you talk about honour killings you should consider rejm in your homeland)
I just get sick from our muslim "friends" "?"
First of all, a few Kurds practising "honour killing" doesn't reflect the nature of the Kurdish society; nor, does it reflect the Kurdish respect toward women. A few years ago, Kurdistan Regional Government amended legislation to ban the "honor killing."
I would like to assure you that it is not a "kurdish job."
A Kurdish intelectual from Europe visited Diyarbekir-Amed. He cofimred that there are more than 600 Kurdish guys being chronic on drugs and more than 400 women selling their bodies. Thanks to the facist Turkish government. So, please be prould to be a Turk. You guys are from Beverly Hills, and we Kurds are ignorants. When I vsited Hekari, Batman, Botan, Diyarbekir, I honestly felt horrible to see how my fellow Kurds are living in the hand Turks. While Ankara, Istanbul are modernized up to the sky. Please, think about it.
Secondly, I would like to thank you for recognizing the difference between the Kurds and turks. yes, we are not turks. We are two differnt people of differnt cultures. The qustion that rises now is: Why don't you leave the Kurds alone then?
As far as the list with the crazy numbers of the "ottoman Kurds" being killed, I serously doubt it. The list never mentions the word Kurd in it. Unfortunately, and again unfortunately, some of my ancestors were very ignorant to carry Avdulhamid's orders to kill Armenians.
best wishes,
K
First of all, a few Kurds practising "honour killing" doesn't reflect the nature of the Kurdish society; nor, does it reflect the Kurdish respect toward women. A few years ago, Kurdistan Regional Government amended legislation to ban the "honor killing."
I would like to assure you that it is not a "kurdish job."
A Kurdish intelectual from Europe visited Diyarbekir-Amed. He cofimred that there are more than 600 Kurdish guys being chronic on drugs and more than 400 women selling their bodies. Thanks to the facist Turkish government. So, please be prould to be a Turk. You guys are from Beverly Hills, and we Kurds are ignorants. When I vsited Hekari, Batman, Botan, Diyarbekir, I honestly felt horrible to see how my fellow Kurds are living in the hand Turks. While Ankara, Istanbul are modernized up to the sky. Please, think about it.
best wishes,
K
Keko i don't know if you are from Turkey or Iraq,no matter where are you from indeed,my mother's family kurdish,and if you are from Turkey sure you know my family(I will not say their name)
So you see I know kurds,honor killing is the main part of their traditions,kurds from Turkey,kurds from Iraq-Iran no matter woman=animal for them. I am not just talking about Kurdish officals in North Iraq but I am talking about kurdish race,repeating it woman=animal for them and you know it very well but it seems you shame to admit it.
Frankly I don't like kurds but I have many many reasons for that,but I can only love open minded,peaceful kurds,and they must respect woman.
I went to Diyarbakisr one time,about 10 years ago when i was kid,I went to Urfa many many times,as I said befor,my cousin is PKK terrorist,and he is not the only terrorist in my mother's family,as far as I know its 8 but they are not real relatives. My mother's brother was pro-pkk mayor was killed(before I born) The other part of my family fight against PKK terrorists in Southeast of Turkey,though they are also kurds. Its abit complicated no?!=> My mother have 6 sister(you know kurds are not aware of birth control!) My younger aunt is PKK supporter and her family also but my older aunt and her family is fighting against PKK,these my two aunt don't talk with eachother since 20 years,imagine they are sisters.. You see I know two sides.
I had two explain you about my family because you must know that I am not unaware western turk,my father turkish from Ankara yes but my mother as I said kurdish.
I am not saying that Turkey was perfect democracy ten years ago,and I know we had serious human right problems,BUT it doesn't give right to PKK to kill man35 Thausand babies,woman/men...! Pkk terrorists just animals,always have in mind that!
Keko i don't know if you are from Turkey or Iraq,no matter where are you from indeed,my mother's family kurdish,and if you are from Turkey sure you know my family(I will not say their name)
So you see I know kurds,honor killing is the main part of their traditions,kurds from Turkey,kurds from Iraq-Iran no matter woman=animal for them. I am not just talking about Kurdish officals in North Iraq but I am talking about kurdish race,repeating it woman=animal for them and you know it very well but it seems you shame to admit it.
Frankly I don't like kurds but I have many many reasons for that,but I can only love open minded,peaceful kurds,and they must respect woman.
I went to Diyarbakisr one time,about 10 years ago when i was kid,I went to Urfa many many times,as I said befor,my cousin is PKK terrorist,and he is not the only terrorist in my mother's family,as far as I know its 8 but they are not real relatives. My mother's brother was pro-pkk mayor was killed(before I born) The other part of my family fight against PKK terrorists in Southeast of Turkey,though they are also kurds. Its abit complicated no?!=> My mother have 6 sister(you know kurds are not aware of birth control!) My younger aunt is PKK supporter and her family also but my older aunt and her family is fighting against PKK,these my two aunt don't talk with eachother since 20 years,imagine they are sisters.. You see I know two sides.
I had two explain you about my family because you must know that I am not unaware western turk,my father turkish from Ankara yes but my mother as I said kurdish.
I am not saying that Turkey was perfect democracy ten years ago,and I know we had serious human right problems,BUT it doesn't give right to PKK to kill man35 Thausand babies,woman/men...! Pkk terrorists just animals,always have in mind that!
I am NOT a "Turkish" Kurd, nor an "Iraqi, Syiran, or Iranian" Kurd. Also, I never think your mother's Kurdish relatives reflect the bulk of the Kurdish society. I do like to remind you that we Kurds are dominated by other regimes. We were not given chance to establish our own civilized instituions. Most of the balme goes to Turkish, Iraqi, Syiran and Iranian government and their brutal treatment of the Kurds.
Cyrus the Great
04-30-2005, 02:09 PM
I am NOT a "Turkish" Kurd, nor an "Iraqi, Syiran, or Iranian" Kurd. Also, I never think your mother's Kurdish relatives reflect the bulk of the Kurdish society. I do like to remind you that we Kurds are dominated by other regimes. We were not given chance to establish our own civilized instituions. Most of the balme goes to Turkish, Iraqi, Syiran and Iranian government and their brutal treatment of the Kurds.
Iranian Kurds are very nice people. Even though the Iranian government is not very supporitve of the Kurds, the persians respect the Kurds very much. Kurds are never disrespected by the Iranian people and we are very happy to have about about 4 million Kurds.
Please don't let Elin's comments get to you. I know Kurds are very nobel people with a great culture. Elin is just trying to blame Turks's faults and problems on Kurds.
Iranian Kurds are very nice people. Even though the Iranian government is not very supporitve of the Kurds, the persians respect the Kurds very much. Kurds are never disrespected by the Iranian people and we are very happy to have about about 4 million Kurds.
Please don't let Elin's comments get to you. I know Kurds are very nobel people with a great culture. Elin is just trying to blame Turks's faults and problems on Kurds.
Cyrus the Great: Thanks very much for you comments.
Most of the Turks I've met have the same attitude toward the Kurds. They forget that Kurds played a major rule in establishig the "Turkish" state. Eventually, it became clear that the Turkish establishment was created to harm the Kurds more than benefiting the Turks.
I agree, we Kurds are not as modern, but I said before, and let me say again, the regimes ruling us must bear the responsibility. However, the Kurdish Regional Government's achievements are clear indications of the Kurdish ambitions for modernization.
As far as PKK, I am sure that PKK has committed mistakes, but the Turkish brutal treatments of the Kurds must be considered in the equation of determining a terorist.
best wishes,
Keko
... You guys are from Beverly Hills, and we Kurds are ignorants. When I vsited Hekari, Batman, Botan, Diyarbekir, I honestly felt horrible to see how my fellow Kurds are living in the hand Turks. While Ankara, Istanbul are modernized up to the sky. Please, think about it.
Secondly, I would like to thank you for recognizing the difference between the Kurds and turks. yes, we are not turks. We are two differnt people of differnt cultures. The qustion that rises now is: Why don't you leave the Kurds alone then?
best wishes,
K
A) Who wants to invest in those areas. PKK has hanged turkish teachers, burned down schools and sabotaged every investment in the area. For every 1 USD in taxes, Turkey has invested 5 USD in 1990's - but the investments are all gone bad because of the PKK. POVERTY is PKK's best weapon, cause a poor and hungry man will join "the movement". So please... spare us... the only reason you are poor are because of your own ignorance.
B) True. You are not turks. We would never accept you after your long history of backstabbing us.
C) I think the kurds should leave Turkey alone. Why are you bombing? Why are you terrorising? Why is the PKK still seeking to terrorise the turks, by selling drugs in Europe and finance their dirty little war.
D) You can fight us for 1000 years. We dont care. You will never win. You lost the battle while you were in your mothers womb. You lost the battle even before you came up with an idea of a batte.
E) You should really be ashamed. All over the world, guerilla warfare usually results in a assymetric loss ratio : For each guerilla soldier killed, 10-20 government soldiers are killed. This is how it also started in Turkey - but now, 20 years later, the ratio has reversed. For each turkish soldier, 10 PKK members die. So.... dont brag or shout about you "fight". You cant fight. You fight like sissies, like arabs cause thats what you are.
F) In the meantime, dont forget that even Turgut Özal the president of Turkey in the 1990's were turkish kurd. So... who says kurds do not have the rights of turks? Forget it man...
G) And stop sucking up to the Armenians. You guys slaughtered them. A simple "apology" wont help. In the 1990s ASALA and PKK tried to unify their struggle, and it went wrong, cause the armenians havent forgiven you. Even Öcalan admitted to this.
Kara
Shalom
Here are some quotes and source, that you may find helpfull regarding
the so-called armenian genocide.
LeHitraOt
Kara
-- - - -- - - - - - - - - --
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun." (According to some Internet sources; this book is alternately known as "History of the A.R.Federation" [Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950]. The New York Public Library has three books by this author, stated to have lived from 1874-1934, all 1917 and earlier [including "L'Arm鮩e et la Question Arm鮩enne," noted as "Delegation propaganda authenticated by the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, 1919"])
-- - - -- - - - - - - - - --
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.
---------------------
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91. (Holdwater: Really? Most Armenians hate to admit giving the Turks more than a nosebleed, to protect the Armenians' sacred Myth of Innocence, and claims for exclusive victimhood. There is a possibility this quote may be an inaccurate one; a verification would be most welcomed.)
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"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself.?
Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
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"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
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"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
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"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
---------------------
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village."
Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
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"The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death..."
Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.
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"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work."
Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
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"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" (derogatory for "Tatar") Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan, ?turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse].? According to Justin McCarthy's ?Death and Exile," "Between 8,000 and 12,000 Muslims were killed in Baku alone.??)
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As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population?
W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, ?Caucasian Battlefields?, Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481
---------------------
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
---------------------
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
---------------------
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul."
Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920
---------------------
"I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error."
Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 ? 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)
---------------------
"It is to be hoped that the future historian will not give too much heed to the drivel one finds in the books of diplomatist-authors."
George A. Schreiner, American War/Political Correspondent, "The Craft Sinister: A Diplomatico-Political History of the Great War and its Causes, (G. Albert Gayer, New York, 1920)"; Schreiner criticized Ambassador Morgenthau in a letter, aware of the Ambassador's fabrications in "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story."
---------------------
"The Turkish race was... from the first black day they entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity... as far as their dominion reached, civilisation vanished from view."
William Gladstone, British Prime Minister, "The Bulgarian Horrors and the Question of the East," 1876
---------------------
"The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fiber of life. I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account (referring to the impending Greek invasion of Asia Minor ) for his long record of infamy against humanity."
David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, getting ready to annihilate the last remnants of the dying Ottoman Empire.
---------------------
"The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation."
David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, after his nation's plans to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth ran into a snag.
Iranian Kurds are very nice people. Even though the Iranian government is not very supporitve of the Kurds, the persians respect the Kurds very much. Kurds are never disrespected by the Iranian people and we are very happy to have about about 4 million Kurds.
Please don't let Elin's comments get to you. I know Kurds are very nobel people with a great culture. Elin is just trying to blame Turks's faults and problems on Kurds.
My mother kurdish,Keko is 100% kurdish and I am 50% kurdish,and thanks God both/most Turks and Kurds in North Iraq support Secularism,what about Molla Iranians??!
A) Who wants to invest in those areas. PKK has hanged turkish teachers, burned down schools and sabotaged every investment in the area. For every 1 USD in taxes, Turkey has invested 5 USD in 1990's - but the investments are all gone bad because of the PKK. POVERTY is PKK's best weapon, cause a poor and hungry man will join "the movement". So please... spare us... the only reason you are poor are because of your own ignorance.
B) True. You are not turks. We would never accept you after your long history of backstabbing us.
C) I think the kurds should leave Turkey alone. Why are you bombing? Why are you terrorising? Why is the PKK still seeking to terrorise the turks, by selling drugs in Europe and finance their dirty little war.
D) You can fight us for 1000 years. We dont care. You will never win. You lost the battle while you were in your mothers womb. You lost the battle even before you came up with an idea of a batte.
E) You should really be ashamed. All over the world, guerilla warfare usually results in a assymetric loss ratio : For each guerilla soldier killed, 10-20 government soldiers are killed. This is how it also started in Turkey - but now, 20 years later, the ratio has reversed. For each turkish soldier, 10 PKK members die. So.... dont brag or shout about you "fight". You cant fight. You fight like sissies, like arabs cause thats what you are.
F) In the meantime, dont forget that even Turgut Özal the president of Turkey in the 1990's were turkish kurd. So... who says kurds do not have the rights of turks? Forget it man...
G) And stop sucking up to the Armenians. You guys slaughtered them. A simple "apology" wont help. In the 1990s ASALA and PKK tried to unify their struggle, and it went wrong, cause the armenians havent forgiven you. Even Öcalan admitted to this.
Kara
I am telling you my cousin is PKK terrorsist,from Izmir he went to Greek islands at first then we heard he is in Switzerland but now we don't know if he alive or not. They are not human!!
A) Who wants to invest in those areas. PKK has hanged turkish teachers, burned down schools and sabotaged every investment in the area. For every 1 USD in taxes, Turkey has invested 5 USD in 1990's - but the investments are all gone bad because of the PKK. POVERTY is PKK's best weapon, cause a poor and hungry man will join "the movement". So please... spare us... the only reason you are poor are because of your own ignorance
You are misled by the Turkish Media. I was in Kurdistan. I saw by myself how you facist soldiers were treating the Kurds. It's very easy for you turn to TV to TRT belive the MIT lies. You soldiers were wearing the Kurdish clothes and killing the villiagers and blaming PKK.
I am sure PKK has comitted mistakes, but your country's inhumane policies are responsible.
Investment in Kurdistan? Are you sure about this? or just heard it from rumers?
For every 1 USD in taxes, probably 5 USD were spent on weapons to destroy Kurdistan. 4000 Kurdish villages were burnt and destroyed, and the Kurds were relocated in western Turkey in 1990s. This is documented in human rights records. Please, be more specific.
B) True. You are not turks. We would never accept you after your long history of backstabbing us.
Backstabbing you? Go back and read Attaturk's false promises.
C) I think the kurds should leave Turkey alone. Why are you bombing? Why are you terrorising? Why is the PKK still seeking to terrorise the turks, by selling drugs in Europe and finance their dirty little war.
I am unsure about your Turkish Media backed claims, but we are fighting for UDSK=United Democratic State of Kurdistan.
D) You can fight us for 1000 years. We dont care. You will never win. You lost the battle while you were in your mothers womb. You lost the battle even before you came up with an idea of a batte.
I have no-idea what you saying. Please, be more constructive.
E) You should really be ashamed. All over the world, guerilla warfare usually results in a assymetric loss ratio : For each guerilla soldier killed, 10-20 government soldiers are killed. This is how it also started in Turkey - but now, 20 years later, the ratio has reversed. For each turkish soldier, 10 PKK members die. So.... dont brag or shout about you "fight". You cant fight. You fight like sissies, like arabs cause thats what you are.
It should be clear to you that Kurds are ready to die for Kurdistan.
F) In the meantime, dont forget that even Turgut Özal the president of Turkey in the 1990's were turkish kurd. So... who says kurds do not have the rights of turks? Forget it man...
No, I don't cosider Trugut Ozal to be a Kurd. I never saw him appearing on TV and stating the fact. Furthermore, I never saw him speakiing in Kurdish on TV. Jalal Talabani is a Kurd, who is the president of Iraq.
G) And stop sucking up to the Armenians. You guys slaughtered them. A simple "apology" wont help. In the 1990s ASALA and PKK tried to unify their struggle, and it went wrong, cause the armenians havent forgiven you. Even Öcalan admitted to this.
Yes; I admit. A few Kurdish tribed joined the Hamidiah and carried Evdulhemid Pasha's orders. The rest is up to the "modern Turkey" to recognize the fact and apologize to the Armenians. IF an apology doesn't help, then it will be your responsibitliy to take further actoins to placate the Armenians.
Shalom
Here are some quotes and source, that you may find helpfull regarding
the so-called armenian genocide.
LeHitraOt
Kara
-- - - -- - - - - - - - - --
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"
Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun." (According to some Internet sources; this book is alternately known as "History of the A.R.Federation" [Paris,1932 and Cairo,1950]. The New York Public Library has three books by this author, stated to have lived from 1874-1934, all 1917 and earlier [including "L'Arm鮩e et la Question Arm鮩enne," noted as "Delegation propaganda authenticated by the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, 1919"])
-- - - -- - - - - - - - - --
"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.
---------------------
"We have never denied the Armenian crime of genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920."
Agop Zahoryan, 'Voices of Agonies', London; Reprint 1954, p. 91. (Holdwater: Really? Most Armenians hate to admit giving the Turks more than a nosebleed, to protect the Armenians' sacred Myth of Innocence, and claims for exclusive victimhood. There is a possibility this quote may be an inaccurate one; a verification would be most welcomed.)
---------------------
"When we arrived at Zeve, the village couldn't be passed through because of its stench. It was as if the bones in our noses would fall off... There were bodies everywhere. We saw a weird scene on the threshold of one house: they had filled the house with Muslims and burned it, and so many people had been burnt that the fat that had oozed from under the threshold had turned back into the trench in front of the door. That is, it was as if the river of fat had risen and later receded. The fat was still fresh. The entire village had been destroyed and was in this situation. I saw this with my own eyes, and I'll never forget it. We heard that they did the same thing to the Muslims on Carpanak Island. The Armenians told me about the latter; I did not see it for myself.?
Haci Osman Gemicioglu, an Armenian-Turk (having converted to Islam) who eyewitnessed the 1915 Zeve massacre; as told to Huseyin Celik, during interviews conducted in the late 1970s-early 80s.
---------------------
"It is in our blood to hate the Turks. However, we hate Bulgarians and Greeks also. The Jews like Turks, but they hate Arabs. The Arabs, in their turn, are not in favour with the Turks. And the level of hatred is rising."
Narek Mesropian, Golos Armenii, a Russian-language newspaper in Armenia, in an August 5, 1997 article reflecting the tension between the Armenian and Jewish communities.
---------------------
"Only 1,500 Turks remain in Van"
Gochnak, an Armenian newspaper published in the United States, May 24,1915 ... in a proud report documenting the slaughter of the Turkish citizenry of Van.
---------------------
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38
---------------------
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village."
Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
---------------------
"The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death..."
Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.
---------------------
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars (Turks), and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stones and dust, and when the villages became untenable and the inhabitants fled from them into the fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work."
Ohanus Appressian, describing incidents in 1919; Memoirs of an Armenian officer, Men are Like That, 1926.
---------------------
"This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women and children lost their lives."
F. Kazemzadeh, The Struggle for Transcaucasia (New York, 1951), p. 69. (This excerpt refers not to Armenian atrocities against Ottoman Turks, but to "Tartar" (derogatory for "Tatar") Turks, when Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1918. Regarding this period of March 30 to April 1 1918, Vladimir Lenin said that commissar S. Shaumyan, the chief architect of the massacres throughout Azerbaijan, ?turned Baku into an Armenian operated henhouse [slaughterhouse].? According to Justin McCarthy's ?Death and Exile," "Between 8,000 and 12,000 Muslims were killed in Baku alone.??)
---------------------
As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre of the Tartar population?
W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, ?Caucasian Battlefields?, Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481
---------------------
"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city."
Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.
---------------------
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.
---------------------
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul."
Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920
---------------------
"I have really found it impossible to sit down and dictate a letter quietly. So I have instructed (Hagop) Andonian to take my diary and copy it with some elaborations of his own. Of course this relieves me of all responsibility for any error."
Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (Lowry, 1990; Franklin Delano Roosevelt Presidential Library, New York, Letters; Box 7 May 11, 1915; Box 1 ? 2 September 1, 1915; Box 8 July 13, 1915)
---------------------
"It is to be hoped that the future historian will not give too much heed to the drivel one finds in the books of diplomatist-authors."
George A. Schreiner, American War/Political Correspondent, "The Craft Sinister: A Diplomatico-Political History of the Great War and its Causes, (G. Albert Gayer, New York, 1920)"; Schreiner criticized Ambassador Morgenthau in a letter, aware of the Ambassador's fabrications in "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story."
---------------------
"The Turkish race was... from the first black day they entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity... as far as their dominion reached, civilisation vanished from view."
William Gladstone, British Prime Minister, "The Bulgarian Horrors and the Question of the East," 1876
---------------------
"The Turks are a human cancer, a creeping agony in the flesh of the lands they misgovern, rotting every fiber of life. I am glad that the Turk is to be called to a final account (referring to the impending Greek invasion of Asia Minor ) for his long record of infamy against humanity."
David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, getting ready to annihilate the last remnants of the dying Ottoman Empire.
---------------------
"The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation."
David Lloyd George, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, after his nation's plans to wipe Turkey off the face of the earth ran into a snag.
THe international community is recognizing the Armenian genocide by Turks. i am not going to waste my time reading the above quotes.
Zlatorog
05-01-2005, 10:33 AM
Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said that Iraq's neighboring countries have managed to devise a common and principled policy in dealing with Iraq and underlined the view that had they acted in the manner of Europe in dealing with the former Yugoslavia, there would not be a “one Iraq†today. “That is our biggest contribution to Iraq,†he said, adding, “Europe should take lessons from us.â€
If he truely said so, many share this view. But there was no way that Yugoslavia would have stayed in one piece, after Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia had their referendums, perfectly legal by the constitution , there was no way back. There was fierce resistance to recognise us, but there was also no way that such resistance would have supported the Yugoslav army or go against it's constitution.
Soon after the kingdom was formed, some Slovenes became a minority in Austria and Italy
Following fierce local fights, the border with Austria was defined by plebiscite in October 1920 when the Carinthian Slovenes opted for Austria
Italy's expectations had been raised considerably by the 26 April 1915 Treaty of London signed by her with Great Britain, France, and Russia, which had enticed her to enter the war on the side of the Allies. Until the signing of the Peace Treaty, Italy's demands would generate great disagreement between the other Allies, as well as among members of the various delegations working out the peace settlement. Aside from parts of the Dalmatian coast, Italy coveted especially the two ports of Trieste and Rijeka (Fiume), even though only Trieste had been promised to her in the Treaty of London. Bitter outcries of deception, Orlando's and Sonnino's boisterous departure on 21 April 1919 from the conference to which they, nonetheless, would return on 5 May, won neither Fiume nor the Dalmatian coast for Italy. D'Annunzio's quixotic seizure of Fiume in September 1919 did more to foreshadow the Duce's March on Rome three years later than to revise the peace settlement. Yugoslavia - a Serb monarch there and Italy arrived at an agreement, at Rapallo, on 12 November 1920, and D'Annunzio's troops were withdrawn in January 1921. In 1924, nonetheless, Fiume would become Italian.
source
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2393/is_n1_v158/ai_17162649
similar
Turkey (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2393/is_3_167/ai_n8691804)
The Kurdish question (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2393/is_4_166/ai_114631687 )
Nagorno-Karabakh was not the republic of the Soviet Union and was the constituent part of Azerbaijan SSR, so, consequently, after the collapse of USSR it had a right to self-determination as a part of Azerbaijan Republic. So, if the independence of the territory is achieved, in this case reference of any of its part to the right to external self-determination is unacceptable. It follows, in particular, from the decision of International Court of Justice UN on already mentioned case on Boundary dispute (Burkina-Faso vs. Mali) where the resolving of the conflict was based not on the principle of self-determination, but uti possidetis principle deep-rooted, as the Court stated, in international law, i.e. principle of unacceptability of changes of the territorial status-quo in states free from colonial rule. Analogous opinion, even not in the colonial context, had Arbitrary Commission of EU in 1992 on Yugoslavia which declared the following: »It is already determined, that notwithstanding any circumstances, right to self-determination can not include changing of the existing frontiers in the period of independence (uti possidetis juris)«. The decision of African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights in the Katangese Peoples’ Congress v. Zaire (1966) case, in which it verified that existence of self-determination should be compatible with sovereignty and territorial integrity of the state and can not sanction secession. So, Azerbaijan had absolute right to assignment over the whole territory of former Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic.
The foregoing statements are also confirmed in the attitude of international community towards the collapse of USSR and establishment of new states. So, in December 23, 1991 12 Member-States of the European Community adopted the Declaration on the Status of Russia and other Former Republics. In this Declaration they confirm their adherence to the principles of the Helsinki Final Act and Charter of Paris, in particular adherence to the principle of self-determination. Ministers expressed their preparedness to recognize, under conditions of keeping the generally accepted international standards and according to the concrete political situation, those new states, which, by virtue of historical changes existent in the region, are developing on the democratic basis, undertook appropriate international obligations and in good faith declared their adherence to the peaceful process and negotiations.
The fate of any territory should be decided in accordance with interests of the whole population living on this territory. But Armenians expelled whole Azeri population from the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh. Only colonial peoples, peoples living under the occupation, or foreign rule, or if the government of that state discriminates them, have right to self-determination in the form of establishment of independent state. Armenians living in Nagorno-Karabakh are not under colonial rule or any other form of foreign rule. Azerbaijani government repeatedly declared its readiness to provide and guarantee all the rights of Armenians. It means that they have representative government in the face of Azerbaijani government.
urge Armenia and Azerbaijan to comply with the United Nations Security Council Resolutions 822 (1993), 853 (1993), 874 (1993) and 884 (1993), in particular by refraining from any armed hostilities and by withdrawing military forces from all occupied territories of Azerbaijan;
place international experts at the disposal of Armenia and Azerbaijan who could help draw up a political status for Nagorno-Karabakh, if they so wish;
International organizations should allocate resources for an action plan of specific confidence-building measures for Armenia and Azerbaijan;
Azerbaijan should establish contacts with the political representatives of both Armenian and Azeri communities from the Nagorno-Karabakh region regarding the future status of the region;
International organizations should allocate resources for providing humanitarian aid and assistance to the hundreds of thousands of people displaced as a consequence of the armed hostilities and the expulsion of ethnic Armenians from Azerbaijan and ethnic Azerbaijanis from Armenia.
thinktwice_
05-13-2005, 01:42 AM
THe international community is recognizing the Armenian genocide by Turks. i am not going to waste my time reading the above quotes.
Who is this international community that we don't know?
Is it United Nations, European Court of Human Rights or such a reliable association?
Or you mean infamous french politics?
goliath
05-14-2005, 11:15 AM
deleted by Goliath
"Who is this international community that we don't know?" turk
Official recognition
Several countries officially recognize the Armenian Genocide, including Argentina
Armenia
Belgium
Canada
Cyprus
France
Greece
Italy
The Netherlands
Lebanon
Poland
Russia
Slovakia
Sweden
Switzerland
Uruguay
Vatican City.
European Parliament
Council of Europe, Parliamentary Assembly
United Nations Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities
The majority of US states also recognize the Armenian Genocide, however there is no federal (Country-wide) recognition.(KANSAS BECOMES 38th STATE TO RECOGNIZE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE)
the Canadian House of Commons voted to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide. The federal government, in opposing the motion, did not express a position on whether the genocide took place.
International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) Report Prepared for TARC
The Association of Genocide Scholars
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
World Council of Churches
The Turkish Human Right Organization
The League for Human Rights
Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile
Permanent Peoples' Tribunal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
I would like to emphasize this one for all of the turks.
"The Turkish Human Right Organization"
In case you missed it.
"The Turkish Human Right Organization" RECOGNIZES THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, what would you like more to be convinced it is a GENOCIDE nazis I ment turks.
thinktwice_
05-16-2005, 12:42 AM
I see you have better information than mine. Please can you show me their public statement of genocide acceptance?
thinktwice_
05-16-2005, 01:10 AM
Let me show you public statement of IHD, "The Turkish Human Right Organization" at October 17th 2000 (http://www.ihd.org.tr/basin/bas20001017.html)
it says:
ABD Temsilciler Meclisine getirilen, Ermeni Soykırımı ile ilgili önergeye ilişkin de söyleyeceklerimiz var. Konu ile ilgili olarak, Sayın Cumhurbaşkanının, " konunun tarihe ve tarihçilere bırakılması" gerektiği yolundaki açıklaması sağduyulu ve gerçekçi bir değerlendirmedir. Resmi tarihle yüzyüze gelişimiz, toplum olarak sürekli ertelenmektedir. Cumhuriyeti kuran kadroların ve o dönemin kuşakları olan Türkiye Halkının, Osmanlı Döneminde iktidar olan İttihat ve Terakki Partisinin eylem ve işlemlerinden sorumlu tutulması, bugün için de Türklerin soykırım yaptığı iddiası, kabul edilemez iddialardır. Ancak, 1915'te uygulanan tehcir politikası ve uygulaması sonucunda da en az 600 bin Ermeninin öldüğü ya da öldürüldüğü açıktır. İç silahlı çatışmalar değil, sivil Ermeni nüfusun böyle bir politika ve uygulamaya maruz kalmış olması kabul edilemez niteliktedir. Uluslar ya da halklar, tarihlerinin iyi ve kötü yanlarının taşıyıcısıdırlar ve ne yazık ki, bizim tarihimizde de, başka uluslar ya da halklar da olduğu gibi ve o kadar, talihsiz olaylar yaşanmıştır. Bundan komplekse kapılmamak, varsa hatalar, yanlışlar yüzyüze gelmekten kaçmamak gerekir.
bold writing means:
We are sad for 600 thousand armenians who died during "tehcir" (it means exile) in 1915 but genocide allegations cannot be accepted by Turks.
and please don't mislead people...
“please don't mislead peopleâ€
thinktwice
Yes please do thinktwice before you post and try to reason.
My apologies if what you posted is correct, except please enlighten us why the INTERNATIONAL Human Rights organization is acknowledging the Genocide, and the small branch in turkey in pleasing the government? please tell us why all the Armenians in the world are acknowledging it and the ones in turkey are pleasing the government? tell us why anyone mentioning Genocide in turkey their life is put in danger?...â€When historian Halil Berktay of Istanbul made similar statements earlier this month, he was attacked. It was not unlike the way the nation's best-known author Orhan Pamuk was vilified after he told a Swiss newspaper in February that, "one million Armenians were killed in Turkey." Since then, Berktay has refused to make any statements about the Armenian issue.â€
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,353274,00.html
Here is a NONE Armenian or turkish link for the International Human Rights.
"Armenian Genocide - 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths
The Armenian Genocide, the first genocide of the 20th Century, occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres.â€
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm
Here is more None Armenian Links
“Official Recognition
The Turkish Human Right Organizationâ€
http://www.explore-history.com/history/A/Armenian_Genocide.html
“please don't mislead peopleâ€
thinktwice
Here are more informations why the Turkish Human Rights will not dare to use Genocide.
"April 20, 2005
President Ahmet Necdet Sezer
Cumhurbaskanligi
Cankaya
Ankara
Dear President,
Human Rights Watch is alarmed at recent death-threats directed at three staff members from the Istanbul branch of the Turkish Human Rights Association (HRA). Letters headed “Our final warning to the traitor separatists†were delivered yesterday to the home addresses of the branch president Eren Keskin, the Marmara region representative Dogan Genc, and the branch secretary Saban Dayanan. The threats were made in the name of the Turkish Revenge Brigade (TIT), a shadowy grouping with links to the extreme right. "
Human Rights Watch
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/20/turkey10516.htm
"Documents annual killing for past decade of human rights leaders in Turkey. An Amnesty International news release."
http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Human_Rights_and_Liberties/Regional/Europe/Turkey/
As you can see the site was hacked by some pround turkish organisation that left their signature, shows the mentality of people we are dealing with.
friend
05-20-2005, 11:17 AM
Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?
Congratulations for the forum,
nice to see so real answers to all the difficult questions of tthis planet.
save the world
goliath
05-20-2005, 11:24 AM
Hi ! Friend Ti Kanethe ?...Ti boro na sas prosphero..?
Congratulations for the forum,
nice to see so real answers to all the difficult questions of tthis planet.
save the world
I also read many many many negative comments about anti-semitisim among greek nation in this forum (i can show you if you want!) and surprise i always defend greeks in here,Congratulations for the forum, nice to see so real answers to all the difficult questions of this planet,right Friend??!
goliath
05-20-2005, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=Elin]I just hate hypocricy!!
And who is the winner on mondial championship Hypocrisy freestyle ....?
Hypocritos in Greek mean actor/ comedian...(free lesson).
REME...TSSBAT...yes..
It seems you run to be the champion in this race ;)
"I just hate hypocricy!!
i love israel,i love israel,i love israel:-)"
Elin
Elin and few other turks that like to add some small cute endings to impress the rest of us, like "i love israel, i love...." another turk ends it with "Shalom" you are not too convincing coming from turks, most of us see it as BROWN NOSING or you can call it as you did "HYPOCRICY".
i love turkey, i love turkey, i love turkey :-)
I don't have to reply this,i love jews because of historical reasons..
goliath
05-21-2005, 08:48 AM
QUOTE=Elin]It seems you run to be the champion in this race ;)
Elin , why don't you quote , you have had a second of amnesia...?
I will write for you to Santa KLAUS.....with a K.... :D
goliath
05-22-2005, 03:27 AM
Wotcha....!
Mediocrates
05-22-2005, 04:16 PM
you've been narc'd - I hope your one post was worth it.
GoyBoy
05-22-2005, 04:29 PM
I've now posted three posts. ;) .. I don't think it's very fair or democratic ( that''s what Israel claims to be, yes?) to kick me off for posting the truth.
"Shame on Israel and Turkey for desecrating Yad Vashem
Unlike Pol Pot and the other mass murderers, the prime minister of Turkey has no blood on his hands, but the moral stench was the same this week when Israel had Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan place a wreath at Yad Vashem. Israel might as well have brought along convicted Holocaust denier David Irving for the ceremony. Shame on Israel for engaging in its own form of Holocaust denial. Turkey is the perpetrator of the first genocide in modern times, the Armenian genocide. And Turkey is no Germany: Germany is repentant. Turkey is not. Germany paid reparations. Turkey did not. Modern-day Turkey never acknowledged the Armenian genocide, never said, we're sorry. There are Holocaust memorials all over Germany; don't go look for Armenian memorials all over Turkey.
The vilest form of realpolitik governs Israel-Turkey relations and, to their eternal shame, some in the American Jewish community join in the ugly charade of exonerating modern-day Turkey for the Armenian genocide. Precisely the kind of tendentious (not to mention outright false) "scholarship" that makes Jews livid when used by Holocaust deniers to diminish the Holocaust, Israel turns a blind eye to when Turkey uses it to diminish the Armenian genocide.
What moral credence should Jews attribute to a head of state and Nobel Peace Prize winner, if he were to state that "whether" there was a Holocaust is a "matter for historians to decide"? No moral credence whatsoever. Yet, this is just what Shimon Peres, the former prime minister of Israel and a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, said about the Armenian genocide.
We have here a prime case of politics trumping truth. Israel needs a positive relationship with Turkey. And to get it, Israel will engage in the same form of genocide denial that it acidly resents when others put it in the form of Holocaust denial. The national American Jewish Committee tags along, engaging in every from of sophistry to deny the undeniable: the Turkish attempt to wipe out the Armenian people during World War I.
If Jews don't want the world to forget the Holocaust, how can the Jewish state forget the Armenian genocide? As time goes on, the 25-year gap between the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust will shrink to the merest dots on the historical map. If one dot is deniable, the next one will also be very easy to deny."
More to read.
http://www.ijn.com/archive/2005%20arch/050605.htm#story12
Tatar
05-23-2005, 10:35 PM
Following excerpt from an article by Prof. Stanford Shaw shows that Armenians were cause of many problems to Turks and Jews of the Ottoman Empire. They should ask forgiveness for their sins against Jews, before demanding from Jews to recognize an alleged genocide that only 15 nations have partially recognized.
----------------------------------------------------
CHRISTIAN ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE
Prof. Stanford Shaw
"Blood libel accusations were made against Jews by Ottoman Christian subjects starting in the sixteenth century, most frequently in the Arab provinces, first at Jerusalem in 1546. The most famous Christian assault on Ottoman Jews in medieval times came in the central Anatolian town of Amasya some time between 1530 and 1540, when a blood-libel accusation against local Jews was spread by local Armenians who said that an Armenian woman had seen Jews slaughter a young Armenian boy and use his blood at the feast of Passover. Several days of rioting and pillaging and attacks on Jews followed...Later, however, the Armenian boy who supposedly had been murdered was found and the Ottoman governor punished the Armenian accusers, though nothing could be done about the Jews who had suffered."[1]
"There were literally thousands of incidents in subsequent years, invariably resulting from accusations spread among Greeks and Armenians by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian financiers and merchants who were anxious to get the Jews out of the way, resulting in isolated and mob attacks on Jews, and burning of their shops and homes [2]. The attacks were brutal and without mercy. Women, children, and aged Jewish men were frequently attacked, beaten and often killed."[3]
[1] Stanford J. Shaw, "Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire", Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1103 (1991).
[2] Abraham Ben-Yakob (Jerusalem), "The Immigration of Iraki Jews to the Holy Land in the 19th Century", paper delivered to the First International Congress for the Study of Sephardic and Oriental Judaism, 27 June 1978.
[3] Stanford J. Shaw, "Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire", Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1129 (1991)
JewishGirl
06-05-2005, 09:27 AM
To keep form repeating myself, please look at my posts (post #51 & 52) in this other thread to see how it hurts own holocaust everytime we help Turkey to deny their genocides.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7987&page=4
Tatar
06-08-2005, 07:00 AM
Nobody can deny Jewish Hollacoust, the guilty parties has been charged in International court (Nuremberg), found guilty and punished.
Turkish officers accused with alleged Armenian genocide has also been charged in International court (Malta), no proof have been found to start a trial, and they have been released after almost two years of detention.
What kind of proof you have to convince you that alleged Armenian Genocide occured that historians and International courts don't have?
Cellis
06-08-2005, 08:48 AM
Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?because you are an Armenian and know how to play and provocate people! because truth hurts, our relation hurts! your russian mama sells nuclear weapons to arabs, do not try your luck on israeli people :mad:
JewishGirl
06-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Nobody can deny Jewish Hollacoust, the guilty parties has been charged in International court (Nuremberg), found guilty and punished.
Turkish officers accused with alleged Armenian genocide has also been charged in International court (Malta), no proof have been found to start a trial, and they have been released after almost two years of detention.
What kind of proof you have to convince you that alleged Armenian Genocide occured that historians and International courts don't have?
Here's part of an interview I found with Dr. Alfred De Zayas, an expert on this issue.
AB: The Turkish government justifies the release of the Turkish prisoners by Britain in Malta, stating that after researching the issue the British government and the international community could not find any kind of documentation or proof that Turkey committed genocide against Armenians and were forced to release these prisoners. How realistic is this approach or denial by the Turkish government?
ADZ: The statement, or rather the position, of the Turkish government is a political position. Like so many political statements, it cannot be taken seriously. It is preposterous. The facts are there. We know exactly how it came to be—it was an exchange for the hostages and nothing else.
That would not prejudice the fact that the Turkish courts-martial already recognized the existence of genocide and not only tried and convicted Turkish officials but executed three of them. So this is an ex post facto, and a rather weak, argument by the Turkish government. I think most people will just dismiss it.
JewishGirl
06-08-2005, 02:57 PM
because you are an Armenian and know how to play and provocate people! because truth hurts, our relation hurts! your russian mama sells nuclear weapons to arabs, do not try your luck on israeli people :mad:
That's very rude. The man/woman just asked a question. Try to be a little more civilized.
What's really starting to tick me off is that you can't say anything critical about Turkey in this forum without some Turks coming here and trying to put a stop to it. Turks don't own us.
Face it. Just like there are many, many antisemitic Turks, there are also many Jews who are skeptical about this so-called friendship with Turkey, and I'm one of them. So please, either except this fact or go post on your Turkish forums. This is a Jewish forum and Jews shouldn't have to feel threatened if they say something about Turkey.
Tatar
06-08-2005, 07:57 PM
ADZ: The statement, or rather the position, of the Turkish government is a political position. Like so many political statements, it cannot be taken seriously. It is preposterous. The facts are there. We know exactly how it came to be—it was an exchange for the hostages and nothing else.
That would not prejudice the fact that the Turkish courts-martial already recognized the existence of genocide and not only tried and convicted Turkish officials but executed three of them. So this is an ex post facto, and a rather weak, argument by the Turkish government. I think most people will just dismiss it.
I keep hearing from some people that prisoners in Malta were exchanged for some British hostages, but there are no records of any exchange in British archives. However, there are many records of British actively searching for proof of Genocide, and receiving negative replies from USA, Russia, France, etc.
The trial you mentioning took place during the Ottoman Empire for some officers that disobeyed orders. Did German Nazis had any court martials for their officers that killed innocent people?
We know the answer to that question, but Ottoman Empire found some Ottoman Empire officers guilty of causing deaths of innocent civilians, and hanged them.
Nobody is saying that Armenians did not suffer along with other ethnic groups including Turks during the WWI in the Ottoman Empire, but all the actions show that there was no planned genocide.
"Did German Nazis had any court martials for their officers that killed innocent people?
We know the answer to that question, but Ottoman Empire found some Ottoman Empire officers guilty of causing deaths of innocent civilians, and hanged them."
Tatar
Am I the only one puzzled at the hypocrisy of these turks?
Tatar you are bringing the “so called Armenian Genocide†in parallel with that of the Jews Holocaust, knowing subconsciously of your people’s guilt.
Do you even realize what you posted?
“Did German Nazis had any court martials for their officers that killed innocent people?†Tatar
YES they did, NOT BY THE NAZIS THEMSELVES, in the turkish case they had it by the criminal turks themselves (the Nazis).
I don’t know if you turks will ever learn of Democracy and Law. The Criminals do not pass judgement on themselves.
What is wrong with you people?
ygalg1
06-08-2005, 09:57 PM
maybe its time for turkey to admit in her hidden shame of her past behavior towards Armenian as Germany did with Israel and should try to find the way to redemption and forgiveness.
the Armenian should take an example how Israel succeeds to build the bridge between Germany and her despite of horrible past.
it could be done, but I feel it is impossible with this government set in turkey
here some enlightenment contributes by a forum member who to me a noble man, named History.
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world."
"It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. "
"Everyone has inside of him a piece of good news. The good news is that you don't know how great you can be! How much you can love! What you can accomplish! And what your potential is!"
"The final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands."
--Anne Frank, Diary of a Young Girl, 1952
"What's really starting to tick me off is that you can't say anything critical about Turkey in this forum without some Turks coming here and trying to put a stop to it. Turks don't own us" JewishGirl
You are not the only ones under the turkish pressure to lie and cover their crimes.
"Association Withdraws Award to U.S. Envoy
Ambassador Was to Be Honored for Dissent
By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 9, 2005; A19
The American Foreign Service Association recently announced that John M. Evans, the U.S. ambassador to Armenia, was to receive a prestigious award for "constructive dissent" for characterizing as genocide the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire in 1915. His comments stirred such a diplomatic tempest that Evans not only had to retract his remarks but also had to later clarify his retraction."
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
.
Tatar
06-08-2005, 10:13 PM
Let me simplify for you what I posted.
In summary one of the earlier messages in this thread stated that
Ottoman Empire who is accused by some of commiting genocide, sued and find some officers guilty of causing death to innocent civilians.
Now my question: Why would a nation who was in the process of commiting genocide, would sue and hang some officers for killing some civilians who was supposedely were targeted by that nation for genocide :confused:
"Why would a nation who was in the process of commiting genocide, would sue and hang some officers for killing some civilians who was supposedely were targeted by that nation for genocide" Tatar
I have no clue why would they? or IF did they? do you have any proofs?
Could it be to symbolically wrap it up?
Once you are done answering your own question please do tell us where are the Armenians that lived in their homeland for millennia? Tell us where are the Greeks, tell us where are the Assyrians. Tell us why turkey can not have any minorities in their country, tell us why you are in constant war with the last remaining minority the Kurds?
YOU JUST DO NOT ADD UP.
.
Cellis
06-09-2005, 12:05 AM
That's very rude. The man/woman just asked a question. Try to be a little more civilized.
What's really starting to tick me off is that you can't say anything critical about Turkey in this forum without some Turks coming here and trying to put a stop to it. Turks don't own us.
Face it. Just like there are many, many antisemitic Turks, there are also many Jews who are skeptical about this so-called friendship with Turkey, and I'm one of them. So please, either except this fact or go post on your Turkish forums. This is a Jewish forum and Jews shouldn't have to feel threatened if they say something about Turkey.
interesting, majority of the jewish members of the forums defencing Turks here.
but you have only 13 posts and all of 13 posts about Turkey... you are 100 % armenian... its was not hard to find it out diaspora!
Cellis
06-09-2005, 01:18 AM
See with your own eyes with proof
why israel doesnt recognizes??? thats why ::
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8183
and a strong source, source by Jewish people from Armenia
http://www.tetedeturc.com/Armenien/Nazi-armen.htm
"interesting, majority of the jewish members of the forums defencing Turks here." serdar
We all are debating if you are criminals or lesser ones, no one is "defencing Turks" other than turks.
"but you have only 13 posts and all of 13 posts about Turkey... you are 100 % armenian... its was not hard to find it out diaspora!" serdar
Did it occur to you that not only Armenians dislike turks and their policy? Did it occur to you it could be a person that lost a relative in the Synagogues bombings? Did it occur to you some people could see beyond the turkish hypocrisy?
Cellis
06-09-2005, 10:22 AM
"interesting, majority of the jewish members of the forums defencing Turks here." serdar
We all are debating if you are criminals or lesser ones, no one is "defencing Turks" other than turks.
"but you have only 13 posts and all of 13 posts about Turkey... you are 100 % armenian... its was not hard to find it out diaspora!" serdar
Did it occur to you that not only Armenians dislike turks and their policy? Did it occur to you it could be a person that lost a relative in the Synagogues bombings? Did it occur to you some people could see beyond the turkish hypocrisy?
i prefer to talk with proofs than to arguing and attacking people here. i prove something, im not gonna argue with you armo diaspora:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8183 ;) seems like it will occur :D
We all are debating if you are criminals or lesser ones, no one is "defencing Turks" other than turks.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7987 check the 2nd post of this threat, he/she is a Jewish, not a Turk :D
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=6311
check the 6th post, he/she is a Jewish.
want more example?
then be sure...
and you should to be brother of the Jewishgirl, i mean not jewish, armenians who hides their id in the Israel forum. Israeli Turkish relation hurts arm. diaspora, i know but lets dont argue this =))
its very easy to transcribe armenians in Jewish communities.
JewishGirl
06-09-2005, 02:47 PM
interesting, majority of the jewish members of the forums defencing Turks here.
but you have only 13 posts and all of 13 posts about Turkey... you are 100 % armenian... its was not hard to find it out diaspora!
There you go again with the accusations just because I criticized Turks like you who come here to make sure noone here can say anything negative about Turkey.
Sure, I'm a new member, but I didn't know that the second time I came here I would have to be going to battle with you every time I turn a corner. You're a very disturbed individual. You obviously can't have a civilized conversation without flying off the handle and throwing wild accusations around.
I can't help but notice that all Turks who come here talk about is why we should hate the same people they hate and make their enemies our enemies. All Turks who come here do is to keep swamping us with Turkish propaganda. I can't help but think that Turks like you who come here are trying to fullfill some agenda of trying to turn us against your enemies, people who never did anything to us.
If we want to build friendships with Armenians, Kurds, or whoever else you hate, that's our choice. If you don't like that we are building friendships with these people then I don't know what to tell you. Turks don't own us and have no business coming here telling us that we should hate these people. Turkey isn't exactly innocent. It's no secret that there is widespread antisemitism in Turkey.
We have enough enemies, we don't need anymore. So you can keep coming here and keep posting your propaganda sites. I really don't care. I have better things to do with my time than to sit here arguing with an imbasil.
Cellis
06-10-2005, 01:26 AM
There you go again with the accusations just because I criticized Turks like you who come here to make sure noone here can say anything negative about Turkey.
Sure, I'm a new member, but I didn't know that the second time I came here I would have to be going to battle with you every time I turn a corner. You're a very disturbed individual. You obviously can't have a civilized conversation without flying off the handle and throwing wild accusations around.
I can't help but notice that all Turks who come here talk about is why we should hate the same people they hate and make their enemies our enemies. All Turks who come here do is to keep swamping us with Turkish propaganda. I can't help but think that Turks like you who come here are trying to fullfill some agenda of trying to turn us against your enemies, people who never did anything to us.
If we want to build friendships with Armenians, Kurds, or whoever else you hate, that's our choice. If you don't like that we are building friendships with these people then I don't know what to tell you. Turks don't own us and have no business coming here telling us that we should hate these people. Turkey isn't exactly innocent. It's no secret that there is widespread antisemitism in Turkey.
We have enough enemies, we don't need anymore. So you can keep coming here and keep posting your propaganda sites. I really don't care. I have better things to do with my time than to sit here arguing with an imbasil.
ohhh dont explane yourself, you are armenian diaspora and easy to find it out =))
here people reads anti semitism by armenians, with pictures
http://www.tetedeturc.com/Armenien/Antisemitisme.htm
here so clear that you armo diaspora burns our symbols
http://www.tetedeturc.com/Actualite/images-actua/Drapeau_turc_et_etoile_David_brules_par_%20militan ts_armeniens.jpg
is it Turkish propogand now? im writing whatever you done to Israeli people and Jewish people...
oh mama armo diaspora =)) welcome back :D
pls stop saying "we we we we" because people checks your total 14 posts and realize that you were only writing in this topic =)) only this only anti Turk. nothing else... how clear that you are an armenian :D
Mediocrates
06-10-2005, 05:31 AM
I doubt many people here know much about Turkey or Armenia or the Kurds and frankly, it's a distraction too.
Cellis
06-10-2005, 07:26 AM
I doubt many people here know much about Turkey or Armenia or the Kurds and frankly, it's a distraction too.
maybe its because everybody proves with their own sources.
but im proving from an Armenian sourse =)) where is it? Armenian Jewish Associations...
Tatar
06-14-2005, 09:26 PM
NEW YORK (AA) - Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan received the medal of valor which was presented by Jewish Anti-Defamation League to Turkish diplomats who saved lives of Jews massacred during World War II.
Erdogan received the medal in a breakfast in New York on Friday. Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, State Minister Ali Babacan and National Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul also attended the breakfast.
Erdogan said, ''genocide on Jews is the most unbelievable crime which was committed throughout the history. Millions of Jews became the victims of this crime.''
''Not allowing this crime to be forgotten as well as to prevent such a crime to be committed again are our common mission. Anti-Semitism is a perversion which ended with massacre. It is impossible to show an excuse. In Islam, killing a person is like to kill the whole humanity. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, racism, anti-Islamism, anti-Christianity, xenophobia and terrorism are different faces of the same wickedness. If we understand the danger and threat of these calamities and fight against them effectively, our children will live in a better world,'' said Erdogan.
Noting that anti-Semitism does not exist in Turkey, Erdogan said, ''anti-Semitism is unfamiliar to our culture. Islam is a religion which sees people equal regardless of their being Jewish, Christian or Muslim.''
Prime Minister Erdogan said that the Turkish nation would continue to have close and friendly relations with the Jewish community and struggle against all sorts of racism.
''Turkey (Ottomans) sheltered Jewish people 500 years ago. Our friendship with the Jewish people existed until today. There are still Jewish people living in Turkey today and they are respected members of the Turkish society. We have friendly ties with the Jewish people who settled in the U.S. and in other places and they always supported Turkey on its difficult days. We continue to trust your friendship and you should continue trusting our friendship,'' said Erdogan.
Erdogan stressed that he was honored to receive the medal.
The world would always remember Turkish Consul General Selahattin Ulkumen who saved the lives of Jews on Rhodes island, Erdogan said.
''Our generation owes a fair and peaceful world for everybody and Turkey is determined to join the EU which buried the old hatreds of the old continent. We are also determined to further deepen our alliance and partnership with the U.S.. This partnership is an indispensable common initiative to serve good goals. Turkey and the U.S. wish to launch complementary efforts for installation of democratic peace by taking their shared values and common goals as the basis. I stressed Turkey's determination to maintain its friendship with Israel during my visit to Israel a short time ago... While receiving this award, I commit to continue our efforts to defeat hatred and tyranny and to work for lasting peace and justice in the world,'' Erdogan said.
Cellis
06-17-2005, 01:58 AM
i wonder where are all armenians =)) i know that pain when somebody come and corrupt their game =))
Cellis
06-21-2005, 12:27 PM
and one more reason to dont admit genocide by Jewish people
http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=5708
armenians are not honest. they are coming here registering like Jewishgirl and acting like Jewish, then they are not posting any messages than armenian issues...
and they are writing their hate to their forums. you can not be so blind!!!
here you go... :mad:
when i came here, and when i proved something, they disappeared! where are the ARA, Jewishgirl and other armenians now??? what now? aint armo games going good? game corrupted! :mad:
the most important thing to be honest and talk tru.
Tatar
06-22-2005, 05:26 PM
about Jewish People, they have no nerve to post as Armenians at Israel Forum.
Serdar the link you provided at http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=5708
is the typical posts by Armenians at any forum that they infest.
I'm sure Jewish people are aware of their tactics and know how Armenians feel about them.
Cellis
06-23-2005, 01:41 AM
yeah Tatar, look around, its so quiet. nobody writes =)) :D when people see lies, they are growing their hatred to Turks, when somebody proves, there is no any word, any reply =)) :D
Cellis
06-23-2005, 01:50 AM
and today, this is the best way for the armenian diaspora... PROVOCATE and ESCAPE AWAY!! they dont want to be catched!!!
Poor to people believing to them :mad: today when we want them to prove armenian genocide, there is no answer, we opend our all archives, but they did not. all the damn archives are ready to be researched but nobody researches. everybody admited the so called genocide even without to check. what is the reason? armenian diaspora plays cool. they are everywhere, parasitezing around the world. everytime showing up "genocide genocide genocide'!!!
i say them scums!!!
NOW I WILL SHOW A TRU PIC
NASARYAN RAZMIK
SS Gruppenfuhrer
http://membres.lycos.fr/armenianlegion/Nasaryan.jpg
NAJARIAN ROUBIK
South France 1943
http://membres.lycos.fr/armenianlegion/NAJAR1a.jpg
i have many of these nazi s.h.i.t.s!!! now i wait answer from them!! how they are gonna explane it??? anti semitist, armenians were playing a good role in 2nd world war and holocaust!. :mad:
thinktwice_
07-04-2005, 04:42 AM
They were all bloody armenians we know dashnak, hinchak ultra nationalists and their bloody revolts, we know armenian legions (owned by french military) massacres in Anatolia during WWI and we know ASALA (descendants of dashnaks) did terrorist acts against civils and killed innocent people all around the world.
Shame on politics that accepting genocide without historical justification. Americans and Jews know the truth. It's two sided story like President Bush said. And humankind have to see both. It's not fair allegation against Turks. And i can say that Armenians are vile people that hiding the truth and they are fearing that it can be uncovered.
Cellis
07-04-2005, 10:34 AM
fake armenia fake armenians fake people fake diaspora fake and fake
here is the fake
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=148018&postcount=70
check pic out they are faking with pictures
Dyaoko
07-25-2005, 09:22 AM
Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genicide?
unfortantely Israel and Turkey are to Beset Friend. even though the ALL OF THE Turkish ppl hate jews more than palestinians , but still...israel licks Turks ...
and they help Turks against Kurds and Armenians...
while kurds and Amrenis are among the nations in middle east who dont have any hate to jews.
Israel does not get involved in what it considers internal Turkish affairs. Israel and Turkey trade and also do joint military exercises in light of large scale military threats faced by both of them.
Cellis
07-25-2005, 09:52 AM
Israel does not get involved in what it considers internal Turkish affairs. Israel and Turkey trade and also do joint military exercises in light of large scale military threats faced by both of them.and this is the main point what people should to believe, posted by a Jewish. regards
Israel does not get involved in what it considers internal Turkish affairs. Israel and Turkey trade and also do joint military exercises in light of large scale military threats faced by both of them.
If you are jews just please dont believe their lies,you know there are many problems between the turks and kurds,its between turks and kurds,it has nothing top do with jews and americans. Arabs also say many many bad things about jews but I personally dont care,their target is clear. There are between 300.000 to 400.000 Israeli tourists visit Turkey every year,if they face any hostile acts against jews from locals why they still came to Turkey? There are some turks member of this forum,yea I admit that we had serious problems with kurds,arabs and french members of this forum but did you ever heard any bad words from us for jews or americans? There are anti-semitists in all over the World,frankly hard islamist turks are anti semitist but they dont representing the choice of general Turkey. In the World as a Muslim Country only in Turkey,yes only in Turkey school books say good things about jews;in primary school,in secondary school,in high school teaching young children about turkish-jewish friendship. In history books you can not find any bad word for jews. But I know other Muslim Country's history books..
Sorry I had to write this,please never believe such lies,ok turks and kurds dont like eachother thats why they can say lies about turks and turks can say bad things for kurds but its between us.I love jews more than more than any other nation,it means more than trade or military agreements for me.
Dyaoko may I remind you that;2003 November 15th - Turkey, Istanbul: simultaneous suicide attacks; two trucks filled with homemade explosives detonated Saturday morning outside the crowded Beth Israel and Neve Shalom synagogues; 25 people (6 Jews, & 19 Muslins including the 2 bombers) died and 300 wounded
And moreover should I remind you that ALL 2003 November 15th and 20th bomers were kurds are from Bingol city,is a hard kurdish city of Southeast of Turkey.
No need to say more..
Posted by Elin:
If you are jews just please dont believe their lies,you know there are many problems between the turks and kurds,its between turks and kurds,it has nothing top do with jews and americans. Arabs also say many many bad things about jews but I personally dont care,their target is clear. There are between 300.000 to 400.000 Israeli tourists visit Turkey every year,if they face any hostile acts against jews from locals why they still came to Turkey? There are some turks member of this forum,yea I admit that we had serious problems with kurds,arabs and french members of this forum but did you ever heard any bad words from us for jews or americans? There are anti-semitists in all over the World,frankly hard islamist turks are anti semitist but they dont representing the choice of general Turkey. In the World as a Muslim Country only in Turkey,yes only in Turkey school books say good things about jews;in primary school,in secondary school,in high school teaching young children about turkish-jewish friendship. In history books you can not find any bad word for jews. But I know other Muslim Country's history books..
This is the best description of events I have read yet as of yet. Thanks Elin!!!
Cellis
07-26-2005, 11:40 AM
I hope Jewish people will have a chance to get Turkish History books, so they can understand what Turks are really thinking about Jews, only positive and defencing Jewish lifes...
tufan
07-28-2005, 07:34 AM
well, the problem about comparing Armenian and Jewish sufferings is that Armenians are massacred by some Turkish soldiers and some Kurdish villagers during the deportation at 1915. Hundredthousands of Armenians are died. It was one of the biggest tragedies of WW1. Turks have to admit and recognise that something terrible happened to Armenians.
On the other hand Armenians have to understand that it was not a "genocide", you may call 1915 as masssacre, massive killings, etc. That's true, but genocide is something very different than those others. Germans committed genocide to Jews. First of all Nazi regime planned and conducted the genocide in a perfect scientifical way. Turkish government did not planned to exterminate the Armenian race from anatolia and from the world. Most of the deaths are happened because of dieases, terrible deportation conditions and incidential attacks to the convoys.
Second, although this doesn't justify those massacres in anyway, Armenians were revolted to their government. They get armed, started to attack Turkish villages and Turkish army to gain independence. But Jews at Germany were completely living at peace, they were assimilated in the German culture and they did not revolted or get armed against Germany. Jews are killed just because of their race. But Ottomans had no superiority demands against Armenians or no willingness to exterminate Armenians, etc.
It doesn't really surprise me that you support Turkish fascism.
People who support the etnic cleansing of the Palestinian people will not object to the Armenian genocide either, the site you mentioned seems to suggest that Armenians shouldn't have opposed Turkish government, this is also the most popular argument for supporting the etnic cleansing of Palestinians. Yes, the Turks had laws and they conducted the operations very efficiently, as the nazi's, the only difference is that they didn't registrate what happened during this "relocation", but the fact that 100's of 1000's of people just disappeared is proove enough.
btw: the Jews in Warsaw were active in "terrorism" against the German occupier too, enough reason for you to eliminate them? th abuse of the genocide as a legitimation for other warcrimes sounds even more cynical if it comes from people who defend or deny other genocides...
You really really do not know how to talk to Israelis or jews.
The charge that Israel is ethnic cleansing the Palestinians is itself a charge based on anti-semitic racism NOT on any real research.
If with a very powerful army with very modern equiptment Israel was commiting genocide don't you think that the casualties of the Palestinians would be a little bit over 3929 when you include suicide bombers, collaborators and dissenters killed by other Palestinians, and Palestinians who died in circumstances were they may have been killed by Palestinians?
Exposing yourself as an anti-semitic bigot caused you to lose the argument.
You should talk to jews in the United States and Europe that think the Armenian Genocide happened, and get them to stop believing the Turks did it.
Maybe the reason that the Bosnians drew so much support from jewish groups, and the famous "jewish lobby" is pressuring governments to help save the Africans of Darfur, yet the Armenians don't get any support is by using new anti-semetism you make the case for the Turks to the jews for them?
yet the Armenians don't get any support is by using new anti-semetism
The key and the answer for your "anti-semitism" accusations are in that one word "NEW". There is a reason that it is "NEW". Please advise how should the Armenians REact without being labeled "anti-semetic"? You have to understand influential Jewish organizations are lying and siding with the turkish government that we view them no differently than your "Nazis".
Here is the latest connections.
".....SH: Well, Sibel, let's see if we can figure out why they're going to
such lengths to keep you quiet. Why don't you tell me, what is the
American-Turkish Council, or actually, let me rephrase that. Can you
tell me what the American-Turkish Council is?
SE: Well, sure, it's on their Web site. They are this organization,
lobbying organization, for Turkish business and relationship between
the United States and Turkey. It's exactly like AIPAC.
SH: Oh, good. Oh, exactly like AIPAC?
SE: Exactly. In fact, they have so many crossovers, if you look at
their members, you will basically see many members that basically
are in both organizations. And if you look at the people who are
in the management and that are in charge of this lobbying group,
you come across the same names.
And which is very interesting.
SH: That is very interesting. In fact, my next guest, after you,
will be Bob Dreyfus, about the AIPAC spy scandal.....but even the AIPAC spy scandal, as far as I'm reading today,
is just touching the surface of it.
....involved people, officials, well
recognized names in the Department of State, the Department of Defense,
and certain elected officials. So, I believe the source is also quoted
somewhere else, talking about the fact that in [the] late Nineties they
were going to have [a] special prosecutor to uncover these criminal
activities and corruption, including the politicians. And this isn't
in the article, but later, after the Administration changed, they
decided to cool it and not do anything with it. So they stopped the
investigation and they went against the initial decision of having
special prosecutors trying and basically indicting these criminals in
the Department of State and the Department of Defense and the Congress.
Most importantly, that Dennis Hastert, the Speaker of the House
of Representatives, at least is implicated in cooperating on some
very important issues with the ATC, and that one of the phone calls
overheard, at least, was some ATC officials bragging that they bought
the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert, for
$500,000. They gave him half a million in order to change his vote
on an Armenian genocide resolution. I think we all know that--about
the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks in the nineteen-teens.
And various states all around the world have passed resolutions
condemning that, and the Americans were about to pass a resolution. In
fact, there's a pretty substantial Armenian population in
California. And the press, at the time all this was happening, you
know, pointed out that it was pretty obvious that the reason that
Dennis Hastert was pushing for this condemnation of Turkey for the
genocide of the Armenians was in order to help some Republicans in
California get re-elected.
But then, at the last minute, he changed his mind and withdrew the
resolution, right as a major helicopter deal was going through, this
resolution that would have made Turkey look really bad. And according
to David Rose in Vanity Fair, Dennis Hastert got paid $500,000 to
change his position on that. Am I going off the story anywhere there,
Sibel? Can you comment either way?"
http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg120550.html
Cellis
08-17-2005, 10:57 PM
hey come on... Israelis, please recognize Genocide! Come on!! its greatest gift to them. and see their action after the recognizing..
hey come on... Israelis, please recognize Genocide! Come on!! its greatest gift to them. and see their action after the recognizing..
Again turk, make sense what we are saying and stop acting like an Arab.
"“Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?â€
Armenians are not asking Israel or the Jewish lobby to recognize the Armenian Genocide. We understand the importance of Israel to keep a balanced relationship with Turkey.... What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest. I hope you all understand that stand isn’t any different than a Holocaust revisionist. Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it."
Cellis
08-18-2005, 06:50 AM
Again turk, make sense what we are saying and stop acting like an Arab.
"“Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?â€
Armenians are not asking Israel or the Jewish lobby to recognize the Armenian Genocide. We understand the importance of Israel to keep a balanced relationship with Turkey.... What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest. I hope you all understand that stand isn’t any different than a Holocaust revisionist. Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it."well, so what? im saying them ' please recognize the genocide and make them happy ' =)) that's it =))
LoL
Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it." you are the greatest liar. what about Japan, China? or even USA? do not tell me california yada yada... or alaska? mexico? cuba? brazil? is there any other countries? ukrain?
whereever you have a strong diaspora, they recognized so called genocide, that's it.
you are the greatest liar. what about Japan, China? or even USA? do not tell me california yada yada... or alaska? mexico? cuba? brazil? is there any other countries? ukrain?
turk for the last time read and MAKE SENSE.
"Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it."
turk do you see the Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Brazilian...or ANY group take side in ANY country in denying the Armenian Genocide? NO, they are not involved in LYING.
turk there are ONLY TWO as in (2) groups LYING and that is turks and Jewish Lobbies.
If this doesn’t make sense to you I have nothing left to tell you.
Cellis
08-18-2005, 09:05 AM
turk for the last time read and MAKE SENSE.
"Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it."
turk do you see the Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Brazilian...or ANY group take side in ANY country in denying the Armenian Genocide? NO, they are not involved in LYING.
turk there are ONLY TWO as in (2) groups LYING and that is turks and Jewish Lobbies.
If this doesn’t make sense to you I have nothing left to tell you.
atleast Turkish Diaspora is not provocating or showing up in every countries, or there is no propoganda as you do =))
great example:
http://www.glas.org/nyc/pride2001/parade/ARMENIAN.JPG
:D
(2) groups LYING and that is turks and Jewish Lobbies. whatta hell are you doing in Israel Forum? get the hell out of here
Typical muslim/turk reasoning. Once run out of debates posting pictures of Gay Armenians as if turks or any other nations do not have them. I just don’t see the relevance of your childish banality, and you are a “Senior Member� Telling poster “get the hell out of here†when you are out of your turkish reasoning?
Cellis
08-18-2005, 12:01 PM
Typical muslim/turk reasoning. Once run out of debates posting pictures of Gay Armenians as if turks or any other nations do not have them. I just don’t see the relevance of your childish banality, and you are a “Senior Member� Telling poster “get the hell out of here†when you are out of your turkish reasoning?
no, you couldnt guess right. im protestant christian of antaquia in Turkey...indeed
of course i have a right to say you get out because you are blaming Jews
Posted by Ara:
Again turk, make sense what we are saying and stop acting like an Arab.
"“Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?â€
Armenians are not asking Israel or the Jewish lobby to recognize the Armenian Genocide. We understand the importance of Israel to keep a balanced relationship with Turkey.... What we are asking is NOT TO DENY IT in order to serve Israel’s interest. I hope you all understand that stand isn’t any different than a Holocaust revisionist. Yes, there are many countries that recognize it, lots of others that haven’t and only two countries are Denying it."
There is an old Soviet joke on the matter:
A very prominent Armenian elder is on his death bed. Entire Armenia has gathered around to hear elder's last advice.
So the elder says:
-"Armenians!!! Save the Jews, Save the Jews!!!"
-"Grandpa why the Jews?!!!"
-"Because, after they are done with the Jews they'll go after the Armenians!!!" :)
I don't think any Jewish person here has denied it. I think the general statements are" "We don't have enough information to form a good opinion as to what happened." I personally have added: "based on the limited information we have, it appears that there was a very bloody ethnic war, which resulted in mass slaughtering of the weaker by the stronger, but was not necessarily meant to make Armenians extinct ala the Holocaust." But that tentative opinion is clearly based on incomplete information. I don't know that Israel, as a nation, denies the Armenian Genocide. I just don't think that it factors in much, especially given the importance of Israel's strategic relationship with PRESENT DAY Turkey.
You might note that, as much as there are outposts of Jewish resentment against modern day germans, that is the exception, not the norm. VW sells in Israel. Now, that may have a lot to do with the Germans acknowledging the Holocaust.
Anyways... it seems like a matter between Armenians and Turks... not exactly Israel's business. Were there an ongoing genocide, ala Sudan... that would be a different story altogether. But we are talking a battle over historic claims, here.
I don't think any Jewish person here has denied it. I think the general statements are" "We don't have enough information to form a good opinion as to what happened." I personally have added: "based on the limited information we have, it appears that there was a very bloody ethnic war, which resulted in mass slaughtering of the weaker by the stronger, but was not necessarily meant to make Armenians extinct ala the Holocaust." But that tentative opinion is clearly based on incomplete information. I don't know that Israel, as a nation, denies the Armenian Genocide. I just don't think that it factors in much, especially given the importance of Israel's strategic relationship with PRESENT DAY Turkey.
You might note that, as much as there are outposts of Jewish resentment against modern day germans, that is the exception, not the norm. VW sells in Israel. Now, that may have a lot to do with the Germans acknowledging the Holocaust.
Anyways... it seems like a matter between Armenians and Turks... not exactly Israel's business. Were there an ongoing genocide, ala Sudan... that would be a different story altogether. But we are talking a battle over historic claims, here.
For me it's sad not only because of the lives lost and suffering that was caused to my grandparents in that era, but because it proves that bullies can defeat history and morality, after all if Germany tomorow will dicide to deny the Jewish holocaust and threat to cut off economic relations with every countries acnowledging it, most of the countries in the world will follow Germany not because of anything against Jews but because Germany is the 2d or 3d economy in the world.
no, you couldnt guess right. im protestant christian of antaquia in Turkey...
Riiiggght and you are a Christian from turkey that dislikes the other Christians that got massacred in turkey, riiiiight turk you are very convincing. Will come the day when a Jew will dislike other Jews that got massacred in Germany and will back up the Nazis.
Cellis
08-19-2005, 06:36 AM
Riiiggght and you are a Christian from turkey that dislikes the other Christians that got massacred in turkey, riiiiight turk you are very convincing. Will come the day when a Jew will dislike other Jews that got massacred in Germany and will back up the Nazis.
well i personally dislike catholics and orthodoxes, as they hate us.. pope (puppy) is a great example for..
Riiiggght and you are a Christian from turkey that dislikes the other Christians that got massacred in turkey, riiiiight turk you are very convincing. Will come the day when a Jew will dislike other Jews that got massacred in Germany and will back up the Nazis.
Ara in general ordodox christians in Turkey hate Vatikan,greek ortodoxes depend directly Ecumenical Patriarchate and Armenians depend Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul. I don't know about Armenians but greek ortodoxes hate Vatikan. So serdar is right indeed,i don't know much about protestants though.
This retardation is going out of control. Let us stick with the subject. I have nothing to say to these banalities.
Well,what's "banality" means? Banality in armenian forums,go an armenianforum and see there.They always swear to turks and to jews. ;)
Have you ever tried to talk with turks without showing your hatred of us? Maybe many of us will understand you and share your feelings if you'd talk with us in a normal way.
Cellis
08-19-2005, 08:53 AM
Ara, what kind of job you are doing as armenian diaspora? you are visiting stormfront.org and writing there, coming to Israel forum and writing here damn it! your diaspora is not working in Israel or on Jews. Technicially, you should give up to provocate Americans. They did not admit and they will never recognize the so called genocide.
There are thousands of Turkish Jews exist, and i can prove you just one... www.turkey.co.il
You have nothing to do with Jews or provocate, you cant its impossible... you are blaming Jews here and writing articles to fascist sites... give up looser... you are already under the watch
go and request Turkish translation from somebody and understand Israeli politics about Turkey
ERMENİ SORUNU
Sözde Ermeni soykırmıyla Yahudi soykırımı arasında benzerlikler kurulması yanlış. Yahudi soykırımı, bir millleti dünya yüzünden kaldırmak üzere verilen siyasi bir karardı. Türk hükümetinin ve Türklerin Ermeni sorunu konusundaki kararlarına çok büyük saygı duyuyorum. Konunun açıklığa kavuşması için siyasetçiler değil tarihçiler tarafından tartışılması gerektiğine inanıyoruz. Türkiye, arşivlerini zaten açmış durumda ki, bu çok önemli.
http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~1@w~1@nvid~619343,00.asp
learn what Israeli ambassador said..
Cellis
08-19-2005, 08:58 AM
oh actually i found the english article:
On the subjects of Armenian and Jewish genocides
"It is wrong to draw parallels between the so-called Armenian genocide and the Jewish genocide. The Jewish genocide was the result of a political decision to wipe a nation off the face of the earth. I have great respect for the decisions of the Turkish government and the Turkish people regarding the Armenian problem. We believe that in order to reach concensus on the problem, it must be argued out by historians and not politicians. And Turkey has already opened its archives...this is very important."
and rest of the article:
Israeli Ambassador: Kurdish state is not our desire
The Israeli Ambassador to Ankara, Pinhas Avivi, has commented on the situation in Northern Iraq, saying "I can assure you that Israel is not working against Turkey's interests in Northern Iraq. We are against the formation of a Kurdish state in the north." Stressing that Israel would be working in cooperation with Turkey in the north, Avivi said "We are opposed to the formation of a Kurdish state in that it would also mean the formation of a Shiite state there." Avivi also noted that economic support from Turkey to Gazza would be of great importance.
Ambassador Avivi, speaking with the Hurriyet newspaper, also said that rumors of Israeli support for Kurds in Northern Iraq were completely baseless, and that these rumors were the product of the Iranian Embassy in Ankara.
Avivi went on:
"We want stability in the region. We wish for Iran to be a united, Western oriented, and democratic country. Every development opposed to this hurts both Turkey and Israel."
Gazza withdrawal important
"Israel's decision to withdraw Jewish settlers from Gazza is an important one. The withdrawals are crucial in order to close the economic gap between the two peoples living in Israel, and to bring about peace...We are pleased with Turkey's words of support for the peace process...."
"It is wrong to draw parallels between the so-called Armenian genocide and the Jewish genocide. The Jewish genocide was the result of a political decision to wipe a nation off the face of the earth. I have great respect for the decisions of the Turkish government and the Turkish people regarding the Armenian problem. We believe that in order to reach concensus on the problem, it must be argued out by historians and not politicians. And Turkey has already opened its archives...this is very important."
On the subjects of Armenian and Jewish genocides
"Israel supports EU membership for Turkey. When my European friends ask me "What will happen to Europe when Turkey with its population of 70 million people enters the EU?" I respond by asking "Actually, what you really have to ask is what will happen to the EU if Turkey stays outside of it?"
http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~381@nvid~619533,00.asp
Hey Ara!!! Do me a Favor and call me as JEWISH then report it to stormfront forums!
I better stay away from armenian discussions..
"you are already under the watch"
turk you do not scare me. Play your "midnight express" games in turkey.
I told you this will be the last attention you will get kid. Stick with the subject and stop bringing all of your turkish fears from kurdish independence and what Israel things of it (as if they give a shiit). Again Senior Member (turk) the subject is about the Armenian Genocide that your people perpetrated not what happens when dropping soaps in turkish hamams
Cellis
08-19-2005, 10:51 AM
"you are already under the watch"
turk you do not scare me. Play your "midnight express" games in turkey.
I told you this will be the last attention you will get kid. Stick with the subject and stop bringing all of your turkish fears from kurdish independence and what Israel things of it (as if they give a shiit). Again Senior Member (turk) the subject is about the Armenian Genocide that your people perpetrated not what happens when dropping soaps in turkish hamams
well stop writing beotche stuff and read that article - understand Israel's politics. what else can i say? your all armenian friends already gone... you are the last of your race =))
I don't care about Israel or jews when it comes to Turkey's own issues,but if you wonder search armenian forums in Google,you will see banality there,you will see how they humiliate jews (we turks used to it!)
Well,i love my greek friends!
Arjun
08-20-2005, 10:47 AM
Anybody heard about Hindu Holocaust!!!
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Islamic_Onslaught.htm
http://sarvadharma.org/Museum/HinduHolocaustMuseum.htm
http://www.kashmir-information.com/index.html
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html
tufan
08-23-2005, 05:00 AM
www.turkishclub.net
http://www.turkishclub.net/showthread.php?t=24
tufan
08-23-2005, 09:30 AM
http://www.turkishclub.net/showthread.php?t=24&page=2&pp=10
1TurkToRuleAll
08-24-2005, 11:43 PM
thats cuz :
1. armenian genocide event is actually being used politically by europe n armenia .. i even doubt it is a true historical fact .. that armenia doesnt even discuss the claims among with the historians .. europe just using the event agianst turkey cuz unfortunately i cant say that europe nations love turks so much ..
2. israel doesnt recognize the genocide cuz they know it is far from being a true historical fact plus jews n turks are friends for very long time .. ottoman turks saved jews from massacre of europe christians several times ..
"The Ottomans saved the Jews from the hands of Christians, who murdered them along with the Muslims in Endulus [Muslim Spain]. When Russia and Hungary persecuted the Jews, again the Ottomans saved them. The Muslim Turks rescued Jews yet again, from the hands of Hitler, who was himself a hidden Jew […]. From the beginning, the Ottomans showed hospitality, seemingly even by allotting the best homes to the Jews – along the Bosphorus, in Istanbul's most luxurious area."
source : http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/memri/june_h_05.htm
plus i have another point ..
i always as a turk supported jews conflict against arabs ..
jews always been murdered by other religions in history ..
so in my opinion jews deserve to have a country to live in safely ..
they deserve a small country in huge mid east ..
to be honest id rather to have 1 jew friend than to have 100 arab friends ..
ISRAEL N TURKEY FRIENDS FOREVER
Mediocrates
08-25-2005, 04:35 PM
http://www.meforum.org/article/748
FALL 2005 • VOLUME XII: NUMBER 4
Revisiting the Armenian Genocide
by Guenter Lewy
The debate over what happened to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire during World War I remains acrimonious ninety years after it began. Armenians say they were the victims of the first genocide of the twentieth century. Most Turks say Armenians died during intercommunal fighting and during a wartime relocation necessitated by security concerns because the Armenians sympathized with and many fought on the side of the enemy. For genocide scholars, the claims of the Armenians have become incontrovertible historical fact. But many historians, both in Turkey and the West, have questioned the appropriateness of the genocide label.[1] (http://www.meforum.org/article/748#_ftn1)
The ramifications of the dispute are wide-reaching. The Armenians, encouraged by strong support in France, insist on a Turkish confession and apology as a prerequisite for Turkey's admission into the European Union. Ankara's relations with Yerevan remain frozen because of the dispute. Across the West, Armenian activists try politically to predetermine the historical debate by demanding various parliaments pass resolutions recognizing the Armenian genocide.
The key issue in this controversy is not the extent of Armenian suffering; both sides agree that several hundred thousand Christians perished during the deportation of the Armenians from Anatolia to the Syrian desert and elsewhere in 1915-16.[2] (http://www.meforum.org/article/748#_ftn2) With little notice, the Ottoman government forced men, women, and children from their homes. Many died of starvation or disease during a harrowing trek over mountains and through deserts. Others were murdered.
Historians do not dispute these events although they may squabble over numbers and circumstances. Rather the key question in the debate concerns premeditation. Did the Young Turk regime organize the massacres that took place in 1916?
Most of those who maintain that Armenian deaths were premeditated and so constitute genocide base their argument on three pillars: the actions of Turkish military courts of 1919-20, which convicted officials of the Young Turk government of organizing massacres of Armenians, the role of the so-called "Special Organization" accused of carrying out the massacres, and the Memoirs of Naim Bey[3] (http://www.meforum.org/article/748#_ftn3) which contain alleged telegrams of Interior Minister Talât Pasha conveying the orders for the destruction of the Armenians. Yet when these events and the sources describing them are subjected to careful examination, they provide at most a shaky foundation from which to claim, let alone conclude, that the deaths of Armenians were premeditated.
JewishGirl
09-05-2005, 12:32 PM
http://www.crag.org.uk/articles/article4.html
JEWISH SCHOLARS AFFIRM ARMENIAN GENOCIDE - August 2001
We, the undersigned, are scholars, rabbis, teachers, community leaders, and students of Jewish heritage. As Jews, we share many similarities with the Armenian people. We were both victims of genocide during the twentieth-century and have survived despite those who would deny us our right to exist. On this year, 2001, which marks the 1700th anniversary of Armenia's adoption of Christianity, we as Jews salute our Armenian friends and their contributions to Western society and culture.
Cyrus the Great
09-05-2005, 09:44 PM
I have many Turkish and Armenian friends and I respect both groups very much but I have to side with my Armenian friends on this one. I think there was an Armenian genocide but the Turks today should not be expected to answer for their ancestor's acts. This genocide took place near a century ago and has nothing to do with modern Turkey and Turks.
JewishGirl,why do you shame to say your real identity,are you ashamed to be armenian or what? ;)
Well Cyrus the Great,I generally do not prefer to talk about Armenian issue because I am not historian,are you all historian? Do you all have a Master's degree about that?
JewishGirl
09-06-2005, 04:58 PM
JewishGirl,why do you shame to say your real identity,are you ashamed to be armenian or what? ;)
Is this how Turks have a civilized discussion? If someone doesn't agree with you, you accuse them of being Armenian? I guess that only goes to show the Turkish mantality.
P.S. The name of this thread is "Why does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide?", not "why does Turkey not recognize the Armenian genocide?". Why are there so many Turks coming here speaking for jews? This question isn't directed to Turks. ;)
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