Women in the front line

[Cato]

It is very significant that recently the Carcall Company was formed (A unit of female soldiers that fights on the front line), and that the Supreme Court rulled that the military can't keep women of the front lines, and that many women are requesting to be in combat units.

However there has to be a next step. Israel is in need of soldiers more then personal secretaries for general whoever who already has several, and women with proper training can do anything on the front line men can do.

The next step should be drafting women into the frontline for the same amount of time the men are there, with only women who would be useful in intelligence sent there.

Equality is an integral part of Israel, and should be excercised in the army.

As an ex soldier I can confidently say that my unit would have done much better had it been coed rather then all male.

What do you think?

[Mediocrates]

Where is the front line? About 60 female soldiers have been killed in Iraq so far.

[KettleWhistle]

What do you think?

The Supreme Court is in the wrong. Women should be treated no different than men in the army. As a saying goes, in the workplace, there are no men and there are women; there are only coworkers, and those are sexless. Army ought to be no different.

[Gilgamesh]

In WWII, the Soviet Red Army included many women in its ranks. Some made into heros. Like Zoya Cosmidenanskia, the sniper partizan who killed Nazis in piles. There were women tanks crews, women flying aviators (like "the witches" anti tanks squadron).

There is no reason, why the IDF won't follow thesame model.
What I am realy against, is mixed units, or mixed crews. Even the short expericance in unit like Caracal (which is mixed), the people there have sex instead of the job. Next there will be killings and infighting on Romantic background.

Imagion the next future headlines: "Lover soldiers killed in action". or "IDF soldiers caught with their pents down".

Sex is healthy, as long as it is done on the right time and right place. From what I've heard about Caracal, it's ain't so.

[KettleWhistle]

The story of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was mostly Soviet propaganda. In reality she was a shizophrenic who liked to set buildings on fire. She just happened to burn some that were converted into barracks and offices by the Germans.

But there were many women who really fought the Nazis alongside men. My secondary-school math teacher was a machine gunner who went from Stalingrad to Berlin, and ended up being a major.

[Gilgamesh]

The story of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was mostly Soviet propaganda. In reality she was a shizophrenic who liked to set buildings on fire. She just happened to burn some that were converted into barracks and offices by the Germans.

But there were many women who really fought the Nazis alongside men. My secondary-school math teacher was a machine gunner who went from Stalingrad to Berlin, and ended up being a major.

I've heard so many different stories about Zoya, I've no idea which one is the truth. Actually, I don't care. It's a story, charestaristic of the heroism of the Russian people and women, in WWII. I wish we Jews could take a lesson from them in this aspect.

Point is, women can be great soldiers. I just don't think they can fight on thesame crews with men. You need women fighting crew, and men fighting crew, with as little contact as possible during action.

Not that IDF soldiers are vergin boys... they have plenty of female entertainment on their vecation (usually every other weekend) and elite units work closely with girl soldiers in supporting roles... such as trainers, secreteries educations ect... who take care for all their needs... that's fine, but not on the line of duty.

[Mediocrates]

At any rate there is no longer any such thing as front lines. On the other hand a friend of mine who is a Navy MD says that any time there are 30 pregnant women on duty on a US aircraft carrier. About half of them get pregnant while stationed there.

[Ephraim]

My P3-C squadron in the Navy during the 1970's experimented with around 35 women. Most did a good job, but there were lots of instances were senior officers and enlisted had special relations with the women... and gave them special privilages with regard to duty assignments.

The women were not allowed as combat aircrew; which I was.

The biggest problem I saw was the favoritism and the fact that they could not even carry their very heavy tool bags (many were electricians and computer techs).

So, I would not put them in jobs where strength is required, or in a foxhole with a front-line soldier.

And yes, it was amazing how many women sailors got pregnant right before combat operations in Iraq in GW1 and GW2. That destroys unit cohesivness.

[atricnorth]

In WWII, the Soviet Red Army included many women in its ranks. Some made into heros. Like Zoya Cosmidenanskia, the sniper partizan who killed Nazis in piles. There were women tanks crews, women flying aviators (like "the witches" anti tanks squadron).

There is no reason, why the IDF won't follow thesame model.
What I am realy against, is mixed units, or mixed crews. Even the short expericance in unit like Caracal (which is mixed), the people there have sex instead of the job. Next there will be killings and infighting on Romantic background.

Imagion the next future headlines: "Lover soldiers killed in action". or "IDF soldiers caught with their pents down".

Sex is healthy, as long as it is done on the right time and right place. From what I've heard about Caracal, it's ain't so.


interesting, women tank commanders.

new fetish

[Gilgamesh]

My P3-C squadron in the Navy during the 1970's experimented with around 35 women. Most did a good job, but there were lots of instances were senior officers and enlisted had special relations with the women... and gave them special privilages with regard to duty assignments. You are right!
So you flue Orion anti-sub plane... great!
For the little I know, we use Golfstream based and Arava for coat guard & anti-sub patrol.


The women were not allowed as combat aircrew; which I was. In Israel, the main argument against combat roles for women is the fear of rape in case of captivity. Since our enemies are Arabs, there is greater reasons for fear of rape among the men.


The biggest problem I saw was the favoritism and the fact that they could not even carry their very heavy tool bags (many were electricians and computer techs). You are right, you have to pick the right girls for the right mission. I happened to see an all women officer course company. The girl with the MAG was huge! she could easily lift me in air. I can fire a MAG or a Negev (IMI minimi) but I doubt my ability to carry it or charge with it. Every May 9 in Israel, you can see old grandmas with chest full of Soviet era medals... some of these babushkas still look quite powerful, at the avarage age of 80.


So, I would not put them in jobs where strength is required, or in a foxhole with a front-line soldier. light tank or IFV with automatic loader, or Refael gun station (remote operated) or AMOS self loading artilary, demand little (less) physical strength. Girls can do that. Carrying should missiles is a problem, but in 1948 we had women morter team, and women rangers.

Modern girls greatest problem is field conditions. Even taking a leak in the open is troublesome for them. It's not like opening a zipper and folding the thing out.


And yes, it was amazing how many women sailors got pregnant right before combat operations in Iraq in GW1 and GW2. That destroys unit cohesivness.You are right. In israel, a female soldier in regular service can't marry or get pregnant and stay in the army. Thier service time is shortened. (they are not "dismissed", but their duty is ended. ). Women in military career positions, are not combat and have similar privilages as women in civilian working place.

[Gilgamesh]

interesting, women tank commanders.

new fetish We already have such, in tank school and in artilary school. Its common knowlege the real model class women are in phisical training. However they have a "belong to senior staff only!" sign prineted all over them. They won't even look at someone less then a captain.

Think about a woman-soldier with a Negev machine gun... and Rambo style head band. That's the new fetish...

[Mediocrates]

None the less, in mobile armored urban warfare there aren't any lines or forward positions. A truck driver or mechanic is as likely to get in a firefight as anyone. So the whole notion of restricting female soldiers from certain positions is antiquated. As long as they can cut the physical strength and stamina requirements there is nothing inherently different from the roles they should be able to play. Today in Iraq, apart from special forces, the general duty cycle looks like garrison duty punctuated by roving patrols. Otherwise, an interrogator is an interrogator, a cop is a cop.

[KettleWhistle]

My Israeli girlfriend is in a tank unit in the IDF.

[Cato]

The Supreme Court was right, women should be allowed on the frontline without restriction.

"What I am realy against, is mixed units, or mixed crews. Even the short expericance in unit like Caracal (which is mixed), the people there have sex instead of the job. Next there will be killings and infighting on Romantic background."

We have all heard the rumours about the Carcall Brigade, I personally discount any rumour not confirmed by a senior officer however. As an ex soldier I can tell you right now that being in a male only unit is not helpfull, coed companies like Carcall are a good idea because being in a one sex unit pressess the idea that you are in exile into your mind and does not let it leave. Having men and women serving in the same units would really boost morale of virtually the entire army.

"In Israel, the main argument against combat roles for women is the fear of rape in case of captivity. Since our enemies are Arabs, there is greater reasons for fear of rape among the men."

I always run into that argument, my counter to that is this. Is an Arab raping a female soldier so much better then an Arab castrating a male soldier? Few captured Israeli Soldiers come back intact below the belt. Is a female soldier being raped so much different then a male soldier getting his feet literally nailed to the floor with gigantic nails the way the Syrians do? Besides there are some Arabs who are secretly gay, which some captured Israeli Soldiers from the War of Attrition tragically found out. Is a female getting raped worse then a male getting raped?

Also you don't need to leave Israel for an example of why to draft women into the front line with the men. Had Israel not done that in 1948 it would not exist today.

That is part of why I believe that the draft should draft women and men for the exact same amount of time, and that women and men should both be sent into the front line on equal footing.

[atricnorth]

Modern girls greatest problem is field conditions. Even taking a leak in the open is troublesome for them. It's not like opening a zipper and folding the thing out.

the

how about custom made zippers that go way down near the bottom of the pants?

more coverage of an area to pee and less chances of wetting the pants. ahem ahem.

[Ephraim]

Not to buck the trend here....but I also have moral reasons why I would like women to remain safe and sound back in the home country. There are plenty of important jobs to do without mixing women and men in combat zones. Too many allowances need be made to impliment a social experiment.

I like the idea of a civilized homefront taking care of business and the family. I do not like mommies and daddies being shipped off to war with children crying at the departure center; wondering how they are going to be pawned off to someone they don't know.

Call me old fashioned; but the boys should go off to war and the ladies should stay to make coming home worthwhile.

Now, Israel may be a different matter as the enemy is all around you and next door to you...you may not have a choice

We Americans are a bit more fortunate. But to qualify...when we Utahns had to occasionally fight off not-to-nice indians (not Ray), our women could handle a 12 gauge just fine. If there is no choice, then there is no choice.

[Ophra]

My Israeli girlfriend is in a tank unit in the IDF.
You are such an out and out liar KW !!!

Here is what you said to me today ....... "" My girlfriend is Army. She can't wait to finish the basic training and go out to shoot the enemy. You and your ilk only run away and shoot their own. "" ......... if she is doing her basic training she won't be chosen for any unit until she has completed her basic training .

Care to mention the name of that tank unit ??? I can check you know ;)

[KettleWhistle]

She is about to finish the basic training, and she already knows which unit she'll be serving in. And quite frankly, I don't care whether you believe it or not. She's in the army to serve her people by making a real difference--that in the number of enemies being alive. Israel's survival is a numbers game; that's really the only thing that matters.

[Ophra]

She is about to finish the basic training, and she already knows which unit she'll be serving in. And quite frankly, I don't care whether you believe it or not. She's in the army to serve her people by making a real difference--that in the number of enemies being alive. Israel's survival is a numbers game; that's really the only thing that matters.

FYI I do not believe a word you say ..... I never trust criminals, especially Russian criminals.

Anyhow .... if there is such a person... she is in the Army to follow orders...and if she does not she will not be in the Army for very long.

I doubt that she will be doing any shooting at any "enemies" from a tank KW...unless we are involved in a full scale war .
Must be hard to sit at home and let an 18 year old girl go out and fight for you KW ..... seeing as you have never worn the uniform of the IDF ... nor ever will .... they wouldn't touch you with a 10 foot barge pole :D

[KettleWhistle]

seeing as you have never worn the uniform of the IDF ... nor ever will ....

You're right, in all likelyhood, I never will wear an IDF uniform. In the same vein as Rothschild never went to dig dirt alongside the Butcher of Altalena (Ben-Gurion).

But let's not forget that Igal Amir--a true Jewish Hero, and role model for the many Jewish youths, and for my future children, did wear an IDF uniform. In the Golani Brigade nonetheless!

[Ophra]

You're right, in all likelyhood, I never will wear an IDF uniform. In the same vein as Rothschild never went to dig dirt alongside the Butcher of Altalena (Ben-Gurion).

But let's not forget that Igal Amir--a true Jewish Hero, and role model for the many Jewish youths, and for my future children, did wear an IDF uniform. In the Golani Brigade nonetheless!
Yup.... and he is locked up for the rest of his miserable stinking life ... may he rot in jail. BTW ... it's probably where you will end up to .

[Gilgamesh]

Not to buck the trend here....but I also have moral reasons why I would like women to remain safe and sound back in the home country. There are plenty of important jobs to do without mixing women and men in combat zones. Too many allowances need be made to impliment a social experiment.

I like the idea of a civilized homefront taking care of business and the family. I do not like mommies and daddies being shipped off to war with children crying at the departure center; wondering how they are going to be pawned off to someone they don't know.

Call me old fashioned; but the boys should go off to war and the ladies should stay to make coming home worthwhile.

Now, Israel may be a different matter as the enemy is all around you and next door to you...you may not have a choice

We Americans are a bit more fortunate. But to qualify...when we Utahns had to occasionally fight off not-to-nice indians (not Ray), our women could handle a 12 gauge just fine. If there is no choice, then there is no choice.
I agree with your point, Ephraim. Family first. Thats why married IDF female soldiers have their service shortened, by law. A girl who got married before the draft date are spared. Then we talk about Regular army. All the above, ofcouse, is not relevent for profesional women soldiers. Then again, profesional women soldiers in the IDF are not in combat roles.

You guys in America, do not have a regular army any more. Only profenional volenteer army. We still have the draft in Israel.

Another issue, is financeing in military built up. Israel, like any cutting edge modern Army (Israel, America, Taiwan and South Korea) invest more and more in high-tech equipment, which increases the fire power of each fire unit (like, single modern tanks has the power of a whole tank platoon of the 60's), which means, that units can be disbanned, man power downsized and money sparred. The result, the percentage of fornline combat soliders out of the whole army, is shrinking, especially since the late 80's.

[Cato]

Ophra theres no need to use stereotypes to insult Kettle, his attacks on Ben Gurion and Yitzakh Rabin do all the insulting for you.

Ephraim if you don't want my input on why America should also reform the army to allow women in the front line just don't read this, but I think this must be said.

"Not to buck the trend here....but I also have moral reasons why I would like women to remain safe and sound back in the home country."

Tradition or Sexism?

"I like the idea of a civilized homefront taking care of business and the family."

Your army is 100% volunteer the women in the army are away from the home front anyway, why make them be cab drivers instead of being soldiers?

"I do not like mommies and daddies being shipped off to war with children crying at the departure center; wondering how they are going to be pawned off to someone they don't know."

Under your military system if both parents volunteered both will be shipped of to war, the only question is this. Will the women be some overglorified cab driver unworthy of being called a soldier, or will she be in the front line fighting for her country?

"Call me old fashioned; but the boys should go off to war and the ladies should stay to make coming home worthwhile."

I would call that sexist.

"We Americans are a bit more fortunate. But to qualify...when we Utahns had to occasionally fight off not-to-nice indians (not Ray), our women could handle a 12 gauge just fine. If there is no choice, then there is no choice."

So why do you feel it is morally correct to discriminate in the army based on sex while you know women could be just as good soldiers as men?

Now back on Israel Israel's current draft system has women in the army, so why should they be in for less time then young men? Why should there be less reservist time for women? Why should a young women need to go through Buracracy to get into the actual military instead of being some Senior Officers butler? Discrimination in the Army means discrimination everywere else in every country.

Why would someone PREFER to have 100 soldiers and 100 spectators over 200 soldiers?

Morally and Logically it makes no sense.

[Ephraim]

"Tradition or Sexism?


Your army is 100% volunteer the women in the army are away from the home front anyway, why make them be cab drivers instead of being soldiers?


Under your military system if both parents volunteered both will be shipped of to war, the only question is this. Will the women be some overglorified cab driver unworthy of being called a soldier, or will she be in the front line fighting for her country?


I would call that sexist.

So why do you feel it is morally correct to discriminate in the army based on sex while you know women could be just as good soldiers as men?

Now back on Israel Israel's current draft system has women in the army, so why should they be in for less time then young men? Why should there be less reservist time for women? Why should a young women need to go through Buracracy to get into the actual military instead of being some Senior Officers butler? Discrimination in the Army means discrimination everywere else in every country.

Why would someone PREFER to have 100 soldiers and 100 spectators over 200 soldiers?

Morally and Logically it makes no sense.


Interesting.

I don't see myself as a sexist, as I define the word sexist. But as we all know, anyone who disagrees with Jesse Jackson is a racist...so I may very well be a sexist to some women.

If your definition of sexist is: you must agree that "all women can equally perform any job at any time that a man can." Then yes, I would be a sexist. I would prefer your average male firefighter to carry me out of a burning house than your average female firefighter. If I were in combat as an infantryman, I would prefer your average male as a fighting buddy than your average female.

It has nothing to do with intelligence of course.

I am also a pragmatist and a realist. If the military only has X amount of dollars to spend; I would rather they spend it on better bullets, rifles and grenades than the $600,000 per ship it costs to build separate bathrooms for mixed crews.

Having had actual military experience in a front line combat squadron with a mix of women and men (an experiment by Jimi Carter in the 70's); I can say that there are some military jobs that are fine for women and some where they cannot hack it.

Now you reach the political decison whether to lower the physical standards to accomodate the women. You can do this, but it might cost lives, or make the mission harder to achieve (which also costs lives). I do not favor anything that results in unneccessary deaths.

So, that is my answer to the "can women handle it" question.

Regarding my wishes...yes, I would like to see women stay at home and let the men fight. That is just my wish; not a policy decision. I have lots of wishes by the way. I also think that you make better families by having a mommy at home, raising the kids as her first priority...afterwhich, she can do whatever she wants. I also believe that having a daddy in the home makes better kids too. Call me sexist or old-fashioned; but not having two parents for a kid is bad for society....the result, we are seeing all over the West as the family (and society) is falling apart

[Mediocrates]

I would submit that our whole notion of warfighting needs to be changed to adapt to urban/asymmetrical warfare, intelligence operations, interrogation, spec. forces, occupation, 'nation building' & MP duty. Once we figure that out we can figure out how to staff it. Some of those jobs it doesn't matter they squat/stand to go to the bathroom. Others it makes a great deal of difference.