A fascinating article about an Israeli D9 bulldozer driver in Jenin... [Archive]

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 03:27 PM

I found the article to be very sad as well. Mosty because Israel claims to have a very moral army, yet they put a bloodthirsty driver in the seat of a bulldozer and let him loose.

"I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night."

Some "moral" army you have there when its bulldozer drivers say things like that. "I wouldn't care at all" How very moral of him. He could be running over babies and he would care at all.

"The moment I drove the bulldozer into the camp, something switched in my head. I went mad."

Indeed, he went mad alright. Drinking whiskey and bulldozing houses all day and night. Drinking whiskey?! Is it just me, or is it possible that a drunk driver could be less likely to observe and react rationally to the situation around him? I don't know how the army can call itself "moral" when it puts drunkards in charge of running over civilian houses. But, perhaps that's all Israel can find to put in such places. Drunkards with no regard for the lives of those they are taking.

"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won't expose themselves to danger."

How nice. But, then again, how could a drunkard have mercy on anyone else?

The actions of this "mad" man with "no mercy" are simply disgusting to anyone with respect for life. Israel thinks they can save themselves through these ruthless actions. These actions have yet to stop the suicide attacks. The "infrastructure of terror" is still there -- because it's the people! The more angry you make these poor people, the more of them will be willing to kill themselves for vengence.

What's wrong with you people? Can't you see that you're not solving this problem? Can't you see that you are just continuing the cycle of violence? You need to put away your weapons and embrace the Palestinians. Come up with a plan that gives the Palestinian civilians hope for the future. You don't need a stop the terrorist attacks to do this. All you must do is decide that peace is better than killing. But, you obviously don't think that. You can't see past the worthlessness of your violent actions. You think them to be justified. Maybe one day, when you wake up to the fact that all human life is precious, you will decide that you will not answer violence with violence. You will instead look to the root cause of this conflict and make changes that will bring about a new idea of life in the Middle East.

If you don't, who will? As long as you keep on blaming the Palestinians, instead of taking responsibility for your own actions, you will continue to be attacked by suicide bombers. You blame the Palestinians and they blame you. Someone has to stop the blaming. Will it be you? Or are you going to keep on waiting for the other side to do it first?

steve

L@mplighterM

06-16-2002, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
We sent a bulldozer and everyone complains it's not handout. We send in tanks and they complain it's not a bulldozer. We send in an attack helicopter and they complain it's not a tank. Maybe we should send them luggage instead.

Sending luggage would be an implied threat and would most likely violate some section of the Geneva Convention.

Send flowers they are supposed to be for every occasion.

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 04:29 PM

Elke:

I don't know, I found this article to be sad. I think it's highly hypocritical of people to excuse the suicide murders in busses and cafes on the grounds of "desperation", and then be shocked when an Israeli soldier is not feeling "due sadness" about demolishing the homes of the perpetrators of these murders.
What proof is there that each house in the 100x100 meter area belonged to the perpetrators of the suicide murders? Do you hold every Palestinian civilian responsible for the actions of these militants?

steve

JustPat

06-16-2002, 04:48 PM

Steve:

What do you suggest? "Kurdi Bear" brings out the insidious nature of the Palestinians in Jenin. He notes the integrity the IDF operated under. How should Israel deal with those who are willing to sacrifice their children, booby trap their own houses, and lure soldiers into ambushes with promises of peaceful surrender? How do you trust so devious an adversary? How can peace be achieved with those who cannot bring themselves to the point of honest and open negotiations followed by faithfully upholding the terms negotiated?

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 04:53 PM

JustPat:

What I suggest is that Israel embrace the Palestinians instead of provoking more attacks with more violence. I know that this is hard to do, but it is the only way to peace with the Palestinians. Most Palestinian civilians are not suicide bombers. Many Palestinians civilians are poor and/or hopeless. I completely understand Israel's desire to protect itself. But I believe more protection will come from peaceful interactions than violence and killing. Seek to undermine the reasons for Palestinian anger. Don't add to them...

steve

JustPat

06-16-2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
What I suggest is that Israel embrace the Palestinians instead of provoking more attacks with more violence. And in embracing them, be sure to check them for explosives. In this kind of a war, how do you know who to embrace and who to shoot? The US learned in VietNam that those who are willing to sacrifice their children see no price as too high to achieve their goals. How do you reason with a madman? The pacifist approach to the Palestinians, surely you are not serious?

Mediocrates

06-16-2002, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

What proof is there that each house in the 100x100 meter area belonged to the perpetrators of the suicide murders? Do you hold every Palestinian civilian responsible for the actions of these militants?

steve

It's an ARMY not a police force. This is whay ARMIES do.

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 05:20 PM

JustPat:

The pacifist approach to the Palestinians, surely you are not serious?
Yes, I'm serious. Completely serious. Must violence be used to deal with Israel's problems? Is there no other way? I believe violence is preferred, not because it's the best solution, but because there is so much anger in the region. This is the hurdle that must be overcome for peace to take root. Anger must be defeated. So long as violence is used by one side, the other side will choose violence in response. Either side can choose non-violent means. If I were posting on a pro-Palestinian message board, I would be calling for them to do the same.

Israel is in a unique position. Israel has the ability to empower and uplift the Palestinian civilians. They can do much to undermine the minority of militants in the region. Palestinian civilians would not support the bombing of their friendly neighbor Israel. The only problem is that Israel's not a friendly neighbor.

steve

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 05:24 PM

Mediocrates:

It's an ARMY not a police force. This is what ARMIES do.
I know. But still, Israel will not have peace so long as its army is bulldozing houses of innocent civilians. Such violence will not bring peace. Such violence will never stop the suicide attacks. The suicide attacks will stop when the militants decide to stop using them. Do you think that violence and killing will help them to choose not to use such attacks?

Again, undermine the reasons for militant anger and its popular support. This is the way toward peace.

steve

elke

06-16-2002, 05:33 PM

I am sorry, Steve, but I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. Haven't you ever encountered a bully in your life? They tug at you, they punch you, and if you do nothing or "embrace" them, all you are going to get in return is a slap. And I know what you are going to say: "How do you know that?" Well, let me tell you: I do. I have personally tried that tack, and the result was as described above.

IDF is indeed a moral army. The gentleman in question did not run around amuck and did not set out to kill everyone in sight. Yes, he was drinking. No, he shouldn't have. In a perfect world, he would have cared more about demolishing houses. But wait...in a perfect world, houses would not have to be demolished!

You ask, "what makes you think that all these houses were occupied by the suicide murderers". Well, I'll tell you: if the population gives refuge to such people, they are indirectly responsible. This is called "aiding and abetting" and is also a crime, under all sorts of legal systems, including the US one.

StephenNichols

06-16-2002, 05:37 PM

Elke:

Maybe one day you will see that killing will never bring you peace. Maybe one day you will gain respect for all life. Or, maybe you won't. I'll keep right on saying it, until my mouth and fingers stop working. Violence and killing will not bring peace. EVER. Justify the killing all you want, but it still won't bring peace.

When you want peace, you'll stop justifying the killing. You'll renounce the violence. You'll support actions that build peace and replace anger with tolerance and understanding. Clearly you don't want peace right now. :(

steve

elke

06-16-2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

Maybe one day you will see that killing will never bring you peace. Maybe one day you will gain respect for all life. Or, maybe you won't. I'll keep right on saying it, until my mouth and fingers stop working. Violence and killing will not bring peace. EVER. Justify the killing all you want, but it still won't bring peace.

When you want peace, you'll stop justifying the killing. You'll renounce the violence. You'll support actions that build peace and replace anger with tolerance and understanding. Clearly you don't want peace right now. :(

steve

Your comments are addressed to the wrong party. This is exactly what the Israelis have been saying to the Palestinians for 54 years.

JustPat

06-16-2002, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by StephenNichols Israel is in a unique position. Israel has the ability to empower and uplift the Palestinian civilians. They can do much to undermine the minority of militants in the region. Palestinian civilians would not support the bombing of their friendly neighbor Israel. The only problem is that Israel's not a friendly neighbor. So what Israel has done up until now to benefit the Arabs living there was worth what? The problem here is more deep seated than just a little issue of benevolence. When children are reared to hate, as the Palestinian children are, how can you stop the violence that issues from such training? The violence will never end as long as the good will is unilateral. If the Palestinians continue on their current path they force Israel to act with might and muscle to stop the bombing and terror. If the Palestinians were a dog we would have had him put down long ago.

Vic

06-16-2002, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by elke
Your comments are addressed to the wrong party. This is exactly what the Israelis have been saying to the Palestinians for 54 years.
For someone who is off to save the mankind by the sole power of his/her brainstorming there is no need to hear or read the news ;)

And since the thread is about Jenin - ever wondered what kind of people place explosives in or near homes inhabited by civilians in the face of a pending attack by an enemy army without taking care to evacuate the very civilians everyone is so worried about now in advance? To put it simpler: the Palestinian militants were planning for a battlefield in the midst of a densely populatated township at least for weeks. It was their job to get every last civilian out of the place once they started to place the explosives.

Micah

06-17-2002, 07:40 AM

Didn't the British bulldoze entire villages when they got suicide bombed?

StephenNichols

06-17-2002, 08:29 AM

Again, violence and killing will not bring you peace. It will never, ever, bring you peace. Keep right on blaming the Palestinian civilians. Keep right on dehumanizing them to justify your violence. It will not change anything. You cannot control what the Palestinians think. But you can strive to change your own thoughts about the situation. And, who is to say that unilateral actions for peace would not undermine the negativity that Palestinians have toward Israel? Give me some examples where this has been tried on a massive scale in the past. I'm not aware of any.

Violence and killing will not bring peace. If you support violence and killing then you are not in support of peace. Make all the excuses you want, but this is the truth.

steve

cerulean

06-17-2002, 08:30 AM

Steve,

Are you posting as vociferously on Arab forums with your "peaceful" ideas? If so, what is the link?

StephenNichols

06-17-2002, 08:33 AM

Cerulean:

I'm not aware of any pro-Palestinan message boards. If you know of any, let me know. I'm more than happy to spread the word to all involved.

I only came across this message board by chance. :) Point me in the direction of some on the opposite side to persuade!

steve

cerulean

06-17-2002, 08:35 AM

Steve,

Here is a start:

www.google.com

Happy searching! (Trust me, it's not difficult to find them.)

Vic

06-17-2002, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
Cerulean:

I'm not aware of any pro-Palestinan message boards. If you know of any, let me know. I'm more than happy to spread the word to all involved.

I only came across this message board by chance. :) Point me in the direction of some on the opposite side to persuade!

steve Some of the sites listed here http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=8539#post8539 offer forums. You could also try http://islamonline.net/English/intifada/Palestine-Special/index.shtml , http://www.ummah.org , http://www.azzam.com , http://www.qoqaz.org etc. for forums and links to similar sites.

Give us the feedback (links) on your postings, will you? Thanks :)

StephenNichols

06-17-2002, 09:34 AM

Thanks! Will do...

steve

NewsGuy

06-17-2002, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
You cannot control what the Palestinians think....

Violence and killing will not bring peace. If you support violence and killing then you are not in support of peace. Make all the excuses you want, but this is the truth.

I am not aware of Israelis wanting to "control what palestinians think." Rather, it is a matter of preventing the Palestinians from continuing to massacre innocent Israelis, which often requires forcefulness.

As for violence not bringing peace, that is simply incorrect. Historically, the ONLY way peace between 2 enemy nations was ever achieved, was by one side dealing a devastating military blow to the other and then dictating the terms of surrender. Maybe not very civilized, but this is the fact proven by history.

At this point, peace has been offered by Israel and rejected by the Palestinians until it has become painfully obvious that the goal of peace must be replaced with the goal of stopping Palestinian violence against Israelis.

JustPat

06-17-2002, 06:33 PM

Dear Mr. Arafat:

Originally posted by StephenNichols Again, violence and killing will not bring you peace. It will never, ever, bring you peace. Keep right on blaming the Palestinian civilians. Keep right on dehumanizing them to justify your violence. It will not change anything. You cannot control what the Palestinians think. But you can strive to change your own thoughts about the situation...
Violence and killing will not bring peace. If you support violence and killing then you are not in support of peace. Make all the excuses you want, but this is the truth.
steve Sorry, I just thought that the message should be properly addressed. :)

Mediocrates

06-18-2002, 04:22 AM

"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without
bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so
costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the
odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a
worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory at all,
because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

***********
"This wicked man, the repository and embodiment of many forms of soul-destroying hatred, this monstrous product of former wrongs and shame, has now resolved to try to break our famous Island race by a process of indiscriminate slaughter and destruction. What he has done is to kindle a fire in British hearts, here and all over the world, which will glow long after all traces of the conflagration he has caused in London have been removed. He has lighted a fire which will burn with a steady and consuming flame until the last vestiges of Nazi tyranny have been burnt out of Europe, until the Old World - and the New - can join hands to rebuild the temples of man's freedom and man's honour, upon foundations which will not soon or easily be overthrown."

- Speech, 11th September, 1940
************

"We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and the oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender." (a bit of apocrypha here - there is a story that at the end of the speech his mike was left open and he muttered under his breath,"We'll hit them with ****ing beer bottles if we have to..")

StephenNichols

06-18-2002, 07:37 AM

NewsGuy:

As for violence not bringing peace, that is simply incorrect. Historically, the ONLY way peace between 2 enemy nations was ever achieved, was by one side dealing a devastating military blow to the other and then dictating the terms of surrender. Maybe not very civilized, but this is the fact proven by history.
You're right that once an enemy nation has no means to fight back that they generally give up further conflict. However, these violent actions have not brought us lasting peace. We still continue to fight with countries around the world. Our actions still create more and more enemies to be "defeated". This is simply true. Our militant actions have done nothing to bring lasting peace. If peace were here, we could throw away our armies. Truly, we do not have peace. Our violence has not brought us peace. It never will.

On the other hand, Israel is not facing an enemy nation. They are facing people that have no nation. They are facing people that are willing to sneak in to their country and blow themselves up to hurt Israel. No amount of killing will stop this. This is not an enemy nation with an army to defeat. It is an enemy that is willing to do the unthinkable to seek vengeance. You will not stop them with tanks, guns, fences and bombs. You may slow them down, but you won't stop them.

Stop the killing. See the Palestinian civilians as what they are -- human beings, just like you, doing the best they can with what they have. They are your brothers and sisters, not roaches to be exterminated. Israel can make peace with the Palestinians. Israel simply does not want peace.

steve

Mediocrates

06-18-2002, 07:48 AM

They are facing people who:

1) wage civil war
2) execute a crime wave
3) act then justify not the other way around

Just because you can form the sentence 'seperatist movement' doesn't defacto autoselfjustify it.

NewsGuy

06-18-2002, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by StephenNichols
They are your brothers and sisters, not roaches to be exterminated. Israel can make peace with the Palestinians. Israel simply does not want peace.
I don't know who you're talking to, Steve, about these delusions that you have about dealing with terrorists. Have you suggested to George Bush to embrace Osama Bin Ladin and Mullah Omar as "equal human beings?"

The fact is that Palestinians are bitter enemies of Israel and of the U.S., with the majority of their population supporting the genocide of Jews, and rejoicing for the 9/11 attack on the U.S.

Unfortunately, the IDF's efforts to safeguard the hostile Palestinian population have cost the lives of Israelis, including till this very day when a Palestinian mass murderer bombed a busload of Jewish high-school students, murdering 19 children.

Please don't presume to lecture Israelis about Palestinians being "people like you... and not roaches." That's false and offensive.

If Israel wanted to "exterminate" Palestinians, the Palestinian problem would be solved a long time ago. But Israel has offered peace and dignity to the Palestinians and got terrorism and massacres in return. So now it's time to face reality:

1. Granting the Palestinians control over parts of the Jewish homeland and over their own government has been a dismal failure.

2. Withdrawing IDF troops from Palestinian-controlled territories has only resulted in the Palestinians building missile factories and freedom of movement for Arab terrorists, including al Qaeda troops.

3. A limited military strike against the Palestinian enemy has not been totally effective.

So now, it's time to try more extreme measures, like the demolition of the Palestinian towns where the terrorists operate and the removal of the Palestinian terror-supporting population either into Jordan or back to the Arabian desert which is their historical homeland. I really don't see an alternative to save the lives of the innocent victims of Palestinian massacres.

After the Palestinian terrorism problem is solved and they start treating Israelis as equal human beings, then we can talk about all kinds of peace initiatives.

JustPat

06-18-2002, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by StephenNichols You're right that once an enemy nation has no means to fight back that they generally give up further conflict. However, these violent actions have not brought us lasting peace. ... Our violence has not brought us peace. It never will. I guess that's why the US has such a rough relationship with say ... Japan, or ... Mexico (surely a Texan would not miss this war in progress), or ... the UK. Come on Steve, at least admit the history of the point, even if you don't agree with the philophophy or action the brought it.

Originally posted by StephenNichols On the other hand, Israel is not facing an enemy nation. They are facing people that have no nation. They are facing people that are willing to sneak in to their country and blow themselves up to hurt Israel. No amount of killing will stop this. This is not an enemy nation with an army to defeat. It is an enemy that is willing to do the unthinkable to seek vengeance. You will not stop them with tanks, guns, fences and bombs. You may slow them down, but you won't stop them. If you slow them down you get a better shot at them. :D

Originally posted by StephenNichols Stop the killing. See the Palestinian civilians as what they are -- human beings, just like you, doing the best they can with what they have. They are your brothers and sisters, not roaches to be exterminated. Israel can make peace with the Palestinians. Israel simply does not want peace. Not brothers and sisters, cousins. Don't you listen to the Chairman's speeches? In case you haven't noticed, the IDF has been very purposeful in attempting to avoid civilian casualties. But, how do you know who the civilians are when you have mothers and fathers sending their children out as suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians? Things are not so simple when the "enemy" doesn't play by the rules.

JustPat

06-18-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
So now, it's time to try more extreme measures, like the demolition of the Palestinian towns where the terrorists operate and the removal of the Palestinian terror-supporting population either into Jordan or back to the Arabian desert which is their historical homeland. I really don't see an alternative to save the lives of the innocent victims of Palestinian massacres.

After the Palestinian terrorism problem is solved and they start treating Israelis as equal human beings, then we can talk about all kinds of peace initiatives. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I fear this will not solve the problem. All I see is another border like that with Lebanon that becomes the point of action for these barbaric people. Are all Palestinians out to destry Israel, obviously not, though it is a great percentage. Those whose mind is set on the racist agenda that would purge the world of Jews will never be stopped until the price they have to pay is greater than the price they are willing to pay.

Cutting off the head of the serpent would be a nice start. When it grows another, as it surely will, if it isn't any better, cut it off too. If you keep this up long enough you'll eventually get leadership you can deal with, or no one left to take the lead. :D

TheyAre

06-18-2002, 09:43 PM

Ahh, if only I could also live in the wonderful utopian world of StephenNichols, where coming out of your tank, dropping your M16, and rushing into a crowd of Palestinians who coincidentally haven't dropped their AK-47s to embrace a few means everyone will live happily ever after. Wait, rewind. I'm dead the minute I stick my upper body out of the hatch. Sorry. Next idea.

On the other hand, Israel is not facing an enemy nation. They are facing people that have no nation. They are facing people that are willing to sneak in to their country and blow themselves up to hurt Israel. No amount of killing will stop this. This is not an enemy nation with an army to defeat. It is an enemy that is willing to do the unthinkable to seek vengeance. You will not stop them with tanks, guns, fences and bombs. You may slow them down, but you won't stop them.

On the other hand, the hand that lives in the real world, guns, tanks, bombs and fences work quite well. I haven't heard of any attacks from Gaza. Gaza's fenced in. If the IDF had stayed in Jericho and Jenin and Nablus and Bethlehem and Ramallah, I'm certain that suicide bombs would be down from the two to three a week we see now to one or two every three weeks to a month, and the bus bombings would not have happened. Kinda hard to blow up a bus when your driveway is blocked by a Merkava tank.

Israel simply does not want peace.

Hey, here's a 12th Grade History Book. Wait, too advanced. Ninth Grade is better for the likes of you. Flashback: 1967. Jordan is considering joining Egypt after Israeli forces whip the **** out of 100,000 Egyptians in the Sinai. The Knesset issues a statement that they will accept up to five ceremonial hour-long barrages from Jordanian-held East Jerusalem into Israeli-held West Jerusalem. Five hours of artillery fire. Know how many people that would kill or maim? Jordan decided it wanted war. Jordan got its ass handed to back it, roasted, on a platter.

Israel banned Jews from going to the Western Wall for years, so as not to ignite Palestinian ire. Flashback: Over the years, dozens of times, Israel advocated a conference of ALL Mid-East Nations to help resolve the conflict. Egypt, head of the Arab world, said the only resolution would be the destruction of Israel. Oops, got your asses kicked four times. Four! Hey, Israel, yeah, we know you could take us out in two weeks, hey, good buddy, sorry about all that "war of destruction stuff, I'm Anwar Sadat, not Nasser, hey, I was thinking, if you want of course, lets have an official peace but our press will still call for the death of all Jews everywhere. Sound good? Call me. If my home phone ain't answering, try the line at Dachau, or the one connected to Hitler's bunker under the Reichstag. Call me baby!"

I make no excuses. Violence and killing brings peace. 1914-1918. 1939-(or better, 1914-)1945. Or even better, 1914-1991. Freedom, whether it be of the press, religion, the right to vote, any of the "basic human rights" won out over your racist and fundamentalist rhetoric. You lost. GG (good game) No re (No rematch) kekekekekekekeke monkey boy (silly(repeated several times)monkey boy).

danholo

06-19-2002, 02:19 AM

When it comes to religion I'm pretty secular, but one thing is interesting in the Torah. God says in the Torah to rid the land of it's people that are immoral and worship idols.
Though God says Ishmael will become a great nation, it is odd how Ishmael's nation has become immoral.
How can you let such people live that accept of killing innocent people or people raising their children to hate and die? Or people that shelter those whose main objective is to kill?

None in Israel are glad when a Palestinian child is killed and no one celebrates in the streets.

Stephen, you accuse Israel of being the fuel of hatred for the Palestinians and that it must be Israel that will cecede from arms first.
Do you forget that it was the Arabs who started the killing in the first place? Do you forget the violent mobs that killed dozens of Jews before Israel declared independence?
How do you embrace a person that wants to kill you?
The Jewish state, since its birth, has always wanted to live in peace.
It would be wonderful to talk peace, but what can you do when the other side is not willing to listen? It's the Arabs who say Israel must be destroyed! Jews are the infidels to them and occupiers of "Arab land". Israel never wanted a war.
Of course the Arab side says Jews came and stole "Arab land" but this is BS. Arab countries is full of false propaganda and hatred towards Israel. You think it will just stop when we embrace the Palestinians? Pallies believe all of Israel is occupation! That is what they and all Arabs are taught in school and media outlets everywhere!
When you have a culture whose lives is based on lies (at least when it comes towards Israel) how do you think they will they embrace in in return? I would say they'd shoot you in the head.

Even though I'm not religious, I believe that the Torah is a book of morals. Remeber that Jews are the people who invented such things as human rights.
Torah says to kill immoral people, but I take it as a metaphor.
I take it as not to respect those who are immoral and I wish them to die.
I myself would never even raise a hand to anyone, but when one is immoral and wants to kill people, what are you to do?

ibrodsky

06-19-2002, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by JustPat
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I fear this will not solve the problem. All I see is another border like that with Lebanon that becomes the point of action for these barbaric people. Are all Palestinians out to destry Israel, obviously not, though it is a great percentage. Those whose mind is set on the racist agenda that would purge the world of Jews will never be stopped until the price they have to pay is greater than the price they are willing to pay.

Yes, this means the price must be too high for ALL Palestinians and the groups/states that support terrorism.

Israel must do more than merely "capture" Palestinian cities. Who would want to patrol these terrorist infested cities? It is time to start expelling Palestinians. Plus, Israel must expand its nuclear deterrent so that the Islamic world, willing to sacrifice 10% of its population in pursuit of its evil goal of killing all Jews, will give it up.

StephenNichols

06-19-2002, 05:27 AM

To me, this conversation is both bizarre and fascinating at the same time. To see how so many of you support the idea of killing and attacking as a means to reach peace is interesting. It's clear to me that my idea of peace is very much different than what I see described here.

I see peace as a global situation where the masive focus on military might that we have now is not required to maintain it. Peace should not require a gun or a bomb to be maintained. Conflict, in my opinion, is a spiritual problem with a spiritual solution -- but that is beyond the scope of this forum to discuss. Violence and killing will not bring you lasting peace. It will bring temporary lulls in attacks on the more powerful nations because other nations fear them. But that is not peace to me. That is homage through fear and power. That is the "peace" of conquerers. The problem with that peace is that it is always going to be challenged. There will always be another enemy to kill. That is not peace to me.

JustPat wrote:
Come on Steve, at least admit the history of the point, even if you don't agree with the philophophy or action the brought it.
Yes, by your definition of peace -- which is not the same as mine -- killing and violence has brought "peace" to the US. However, my point is that we are not at peace. It always seems that a new enemy pops up every few years that needs to be crushed. We have regularly been directly or indirectly involved in wars and conflict since our nation was created. This is not peace... it is perpetual conflict. Our geographical isolation -- and our friendly (and weak) neighbors -- has much to do with our sense of peace and security here. Our massive military strength keeps larger unfriendly nations at bay. And our economic might keeps most other nations engaging us in trying to get their share of the money pie. These last two factors keep most nations from attacking us, but if either our military or economic might were to falter then we would see increases in hostility.

TheyAre wrote:
Ahh, if only I could also live in the wonderful utopian world of StephenNichols, where coming out of your tank, dropping your M16, and rushing into a crowd of Palestinians who coincidentally haven't dropped their AK-47s to embrace a few means everyone will live happily ever after. Wait, rewind. I'm dead the minute I stick my upper body out of the hatch. Sorry. Next idea.
I don't advocate that soldiers jump out of their tanks and commit suicide. I am suggesting that Israel -- just like the Palestinians -- can do much more to build the foundations of a lasting peace. You don't need their cooperation to do so. But you do need an understanding of their anger and hatred so that you can work to undermine it instead of inflame it. There is much that Israel can do to build peace with the Palestinian civilians. This will not bring an immediate end to the suicide attacks, but it will set in motion changes that will undermine their support. There are alternatives to killing.

The average person in would-be Palestine seek the same things out of life that we all do. They seek health in their bodies, peace and prosperity in their lives and a better future for their children. These are truths of the human existence. It's easy to get caught up in dehumanizing our enemies and forgetting that we have more in common with them than not. Palestinians are guilty of this and so are Israelis. The following passage captures my meaning quite well:

Oh, if only everybody could see their own and other
people's inner countenances. Theyu would never hate
each other, and they would neer be afraid of each
other! There are no bad people! They often harm each
other, doing evil things, even cruel things, to others
because they believe others are going to do evil to
them and they try to defend themselves in advance out
of pure fear. In this way they give others a real
reason to believe they are acting with bad intentions.

But if one could only convince both paraties to such
'evil actions' that neither is acting malevolently and
that both are merely afraid of each other, theyu would
both breathe a sigh of relief and shake hands. People
are ignorant and blind. They don't see each other,
and this is the reason for all the enmity and
hostility on earth. There's nothing more beautiful
than being able to open blind eyes and watch the
brilliant look of understanding...

steve

TheyAre

06-19-2002, 08:12 AM

I don't advocate that soldiers jump out of their tanks and commit suicide. I am suggesting that Israel -- just like the Palestinians -- can do much more to build the foundations of a lasting peace. You don't need their cooperation to do so. But you do need an understanding of their anger and hatred so that you can work to undermine it instead of inflame it. There is much that Israel can do to build peace with the Palestinian civilians. This will not bring an immediate end to the suicide attacks, but it will set in motion changes that will undermine their support. There are alternatives to killing.

I have one response to this, consisting of two words: Munich. 1938.

Why do you even think peace is possible if I can't get out of my tank without being killed instantly? You live in a fantasy world where Palestinians don't really hate Jews. They do, with a more fervent and true hatred than Hitler did. Hitler needed a scapegoat to get to power. Jews were that scapegoat. Nothing more. Over time his mind, warped as it already was, warped a bit more, and he decided he needed a Final Solution.

12 rounds, ding ding ding. Good match, no knockout or TKO so we'll decide on points. Judge A: Israel, 96. Arabs, 50. Judge B: Israel, 96. Arabs, 70. Judge C: Israel, 99. Arabs, 75. But the crowd doesn't want the fight to end, so they keep it up, and "Arab" is more than willing to keep going on. Is "Israel" supposed to sit there and take it?

Your idea of peace is idealistic. There are three ways coming to a peace: one side realizes the other would crush it, both sides realize they'd destroy each other, or they truly are good friends. Israel and the Arabs aren't good friends. Israel can crush the Arabs. Not the other way around.

Only peace method one applies. Israel can crush its enemies. They don't realize that. When they do, and when they understand that Jewish blood is not cheap, that they can't keep slugging after the match is over without consequences, then there will be peace.

JustPat

06-19-2002, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Yes, this means the price must be too high for ALL Palestinians and the groups/states that support terrorism.

Israel must do more than merely "capture" Palestinian cities. Who would want to patrol these terrorist infested cities? It is time to start expelling Palestinians. Plus, Israel must expand its nuclear deterrent so that the Islamic world, willing to sacrifice 10% of its population in pursuit of its evil goal of killing all Jews, will give it up. For the sake of those whose history books didn't have the chapter on deterrence, have you noticed how chummy Japan is with the US? Do you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki had anything to do with today's good relationship?

TexasMan

06-19-2002, 09:34 AM

I would disagree about violence not bringing peace. I would say that in WW2 a lot of violence brought peace. The japs and gremans did not want peace. After we had burned their city to cinders they kind of said, "you know this is not worth it." The ones that did not got killed on the frontlines. I think half measures in the name of peace brings more misery on noncombatants. If you are in a war. Fight to win, and win decisivley. The Jews are at war with the palistinian people. To think otherwise is a fools paradise. Go in, wipe out the plo, put in as puppet pro israel govrn. Help the poor bastards to rebuild and when they become rich fat and happy there is no problem. If you disagree please give a historical example of another solution that worked.

StephenNichols

06-19-2002, 09:45 AM

TexasMan:

You're right... Conquering another people will force them to stop fighting you. It's a conquerer's peace that we achieve in this way. And, as always, a conquerer's peace will always be challenged. This is why we need such massive military might. There is always someone that wishes to test us. A conquerer's peace will never last. Yes, the Japanese may not rise up against us again -- not as long as we keep them under our boot. The same is true of other nations we have conquered. However, as a nation, we do not have peace. We continue to fight conflicts all over the world. It has never stopped. Conflict is the way to maintain a conquerer's peace. It will never stop until we embrace cooperation and loving peace instead of a conquerer's peace.

This is why I say violence does not bring lasting peace. It brings temporary peace. Always we will be fighting the next enemy. Always we will be in conflict so long as we rely on killing to achieve "peace".

steve

Mediocrates

06-19-2002, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by JustPat
For the sake of those whose history books didn't have the chapter on deterrence, have you noticed how chummy Japan is with the US? Do you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki had anything to do with today's good relationship?

Japan was held under military control for years by the US. We disbanded their army, their government, made them write a new constitution, made their emperor not-divine and poured billions into their country to rebuild it from scratch.

I have a very unpopular belief about Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I believe that they served purely political goals and were also absolutely necessary. I believe that the purpose of dropping the bombs on Japan was in large parts a simple message: "Surrender or be erased from the earth." We killed far more Japanese civilians using conventional weapons under just as horrendous circumstances like the 17sqmi firestorm in Tokyo that killed 130,000 in one day. So I don't think the nuclear bombs were ever a matter of scale. They were a matter of politics. They said to the Japanese "We're going to wrap this up whether there are any Japanese left alive or not" and they said to the Russians "What are you lookin' at, you want a piece of this?"

Upon unconditional surrender the US (and it was 90% the US) rebuilt their country. For those of you who were working adults in the 1980's you'll remember the anger many Americans felt at the apparent ingratitude of the Japanese who were buying up American companies and assets and real estate at a ferocious pace. "They did this to us, after what we did to rebuild their country???"

StephenNichols

06-19-2002, 10:08 AM

TheyAre:

Your idea of peace is idealistic. There are three ways coming to a peace: one side realizes the other would crush it, both sides realize they'd destroy each other, or they truly are good friends. Israel and the Arabs aren't good friends. Israel can crush the Arabs. Not the other way around.
You left out one important avenue to peace -- become good friends with your enemy. Tell me again why that's impossible... And, with your explanation, can you list a few Palestinians that you know?

steve

Mediocrates

06-19-2002, 10:36 AM

I know a few Palestinians here in NC, a few Egyptians too - not well but certainly civil and nice to one another. I think most people who leave their country and move to another country do that because either they were forced to or they wanted to. Not because it gives them an opportunity to be an outsider here.

JustPat

06-19-2002, 12:25 PM

I have had good friends who were Irani, have served with Saudi's and know that none of them were Yasser Arafat and his ilk. To generalize and idealize is to invite destruction.

TheyAre

06-19-2002, 05:52 PM

You left out one important avenue to peace -- become good friends with your enemy. Tell me again why that's impossible... And, with your explanation, can you list a few Palestinians that you know?

Hmm... let me think... in a recent BBC/CNN poll 90% of Palestinians supported suicide bombings and the destruction of Israel, and in that same poll 2/3 said they would support suicide bombings, aka martyrdom operations, and the destruction of Israel after getting their own country. Somehow, I don't think they want to become "good friends" with Israel.

I do not personally know any Palestinians, but my best friend who I met on the internet is an Israeli, a really really left-wing Israeli at that, and he says now that even he doesn't think Arabs (aka Muslims) will ever accept Israel and that fighting back is the only way to go. I've also visited some of those Pro-Palestine forums mentioned in this post. Have you? Almost every poster agrees that the only way to peace is the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews in the world, and some even go so far as to say also kill all Americans and their allies (aka the rest of the world) for supporting Israel.

With "peace partners" like those, who needs Neo-Nazis? (The Sum of All Fears. The Fascists there didn't even go into the Holocaust and anti-semitism, just how you make America and Russia fight, not fight them together. Some Fascists they are.)

elke

06-19-2002, 06:01 PM

I did have a Palestinian friend in High School, in the '80s. She even wanted to give me her rug (I liked it, so she wanted to give it to me! :) ) Beautiful girl, rather bright, nice, interesting to talk to. Liked shopping a little too much... :)

She stopped seeing me when I came back from my trip to Israel.

I learned a lot from her. I can only hope that she learned half as much from me.

StephenNichols

06-19-2002, 06:06 PM

TheyAre:

Speaking of polls... Here's the results of an interesting one I came across today:

http://www.peacenow.org/nia/peace/v3i47.html

Palestinian Support for Suicide Bombings Declines: A new poll from the Jerusalem Media and Communication Center (JMCC) found that while 79% of Palestinians back the Intifada in some way, the percentage of those who approve of suicide bombings against Israeli citizens dropped from 74% in December to 68% last week. Another new poll, this one taken by the Palestinian Public Opinion Center in Beit Sahour, found an even sharper decline in Palestinian support for suicide attacks against Israelis, with 54% currently supporting such attacks, down from 81% in August 2001. In the JMCC survey, 51% of Palestinians also said the end result of the uprising should be â€œliberating all of historic Palestine,â€ compared with 43% who said the aim of the Intifada was to end Israeli occupation and establish a state only in the West Bank and Gaza. Most of the people told JMCC that Israeli raids had reduced their support for the Palestinian Authority and its security forces, and also dented their support for holding peace talks with Israel. 59% of respondents in the JMCC survey said the Israeli raids had boosted their approval of the militant Islamic group Hamas, and 66% said the Israeli operations had increased their backing for suicide bombings. In addition, the JMCC poll found that 41% of Palestinians gave Yasir Arafat favorable marks, compared with 29% who said he was a bad leader. Overall, 25% of Palestinians in the JMCC poll said they trusted Arafat more than any other politician, 24% said they trusted no one, and 9% put their faith in Hamasâ€™ spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. (Reuters & Maâ€™ariv, 6/11/02)

That recent poll does not mesh with what you claim, but then again, polls are just polls. It's easy to assume that a people are evil when you don't know any of them. I don't know any of them either, but I tend to assume that all people are basically the same. That's a viewpoint I can't recommend enough... :)

steve

ibrodsky

06-20-2002, 03:02 AM

As some of you suggest, we should not condemn all individuals of another race or religion just because some act like barbarians.

However, there is something else we should not forget.

Allowing Arafat to set up the PA was a terrible mistake. During the foolish Oslo "Peace Process," while Israel and the West were determined to delude themselves, Arafat was busy creating a terrorist culture. PA schools, mosques, and media have spent years indoctrinating Palestinians to hate and mass murder Jews.

The White House insists that Israel has the right to "defend itself" but should not "forget the path to peace." This is the same foolishness of the last 8 or 9 years.

Now Israel must fight the PA and other Arab enemies the way the U.S. fought Japan in WW II. Peace won't come by resuming negotiations. Hamas believes it is winning through terrorism, and calls for negotiations coming from the victim and its supporters only tend to confirm that view. Peace will only come from complete military victory. All else is illusion...

The current US administration is supposedly one of the most pro-Israel. That's nice, but it isn't enough. What Israel needs now is material military support. Israel is the front line in the War Against Terrorism. The US is engaged in a War Against Terrorism. Instead of cautioning Israel to show restraint, or "Not forget the path to peace," we should be joining Israel in ridding the world of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Arafat's terror groups.

If ever there was a general population that crossed the line and deserved to be treated as collectively guilty, it is the Palestinian population -- a population that literally breeds terrorists. In what other culture would a mother and father proudly send their son to blow himself up just to kill Jews riding to work in the morning?

The Palestinians may be suffering, but they believe they are winning. They are attacking Israel in the most savage manner available to them. It is time for Israel to employ more whiskey-drinking bulldozer operators. If the Palestinians are going to mass murder Jews, with the support of Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, then Israel should destroy their homes and drive them out of the territories.

That is far more humane to them than what they do to us.

danholo

06-20-2002, 03:26 AM

I just went to http://islamonline.net/English/intifada/Palestine-Special/index.shtml

The site itself shows how peace cannot be implemented with Arabs because what young generations is taught is nothing more then lies.
When these lies are repeated over and over they become the truth to these people i.e. Palestinian Nationalism.

When the name of these people have nothing to do with them (romans gave the name. it has nothing to do with arabs as we all know) how can you take them seriously?

On that site I visited I'll give an example. There is a flash presentation of "Palestine: Maps & Facts" which is full of blunt lies.
Like the 1948 war.
Quote: "War broke out between the well armed Zionist entity on one side, and the Palestinians and Arab armies - that were not prepared for the war - on the other. The Arabs lost the war."

Peace is not possible because the other side does not know even half the truth. First the truth must come out before peace can be even talked about.