Rand corporation research papers

[Mediocrates]

Here is a collection of Rand corporation research papers on the criteria and method for a successful Palestinian state. Their approach is 'Day-2', that is, once statehood is achieved, what are the requirements for successful development and operation of a state.

Some of these papers are quite long. See also on the right side under 'Related Publications'.

http://www.rand.org/publications/MG/MG146/

[Truthful Mind]

Wow thanks! This is a very interesting document. I just downloaded the entire pdf. I plan to read the entire thing.

Again, thanks for link!

[Jorge]

Mediocrates: Thanks for the link. Only now I started reading the Rand study, which appears to be very thorough and in good randian tradition.

Of the many topics of the study that merit discussion, this one caught my eye first:

Rapid population growth …will tax the physical and human capital required to provide education, health care and housing, and it will place a heavy financial burden for funding these services on a disproportionably smaller working-age population.

In another section of the study, the number of refugees willing to settle in a Palestinian State is estimated between 100.000 and 500.000 ( Rand estimates are higher).

The above considerations mean that the idea of granting exiled Palestinians free immigration into the State according to a “Law of Return” is not a viable alternative. On the contrary, such State once established should try to limit the inflow of refugees down to a “symbolic minimum”. All this stresses the point that a solution of the refugee problem should be primarily aimed at improving their living conditions in the countries where they are now leaving (mostly Lebanon and Jordan) and their integration as citizens of those countries. Regarding Palestine, once the State is established, the UNRWA should stop its aid and re-direct the funds through governmental channels so that the State will seek ways to integrate them as citizens into established population centers.

As I said, thre's quite a number of other topics that merit discussion and I hope we'll get to them on this thread.

[Annaliese]

JORDAN IS PALESTINE

(The first paragraphs are omitted due to length of text.)

Thus the promise of the Jewish National Home was withheld in Eastern Palestine, remaining in Western Palestine. And finally, on May 25, 1946, the national identity of the Palestinian Arabs was recognized, when Abdullah was proclaimed King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan. This proclamation was of doubtful legality. For example, in its presentations to the League of Nations (which existed until April 19, 1946) and the United Nations, the British falsely claimed that Palestine and Transjordan were separate Mandates, a falsehood now repeated by many who challenge the fact that Jordan is Eastern Palestine. But in 1955 Jordan (ten years later) was admitted to the United Nations. Its legality is thus accepted, and it is the Palestinian Arab Nation-State, or, stated another way, it is the Arab State in Palestine.

The Jewish people are entitled to the land of Eretz Israel that is West of the Jordan River. The Arabs on the other hand have had their self-determination on 77% of the Mandate for Palestine East of the River now called Jordan since May 25, 1946…

Let the two peoples, Jews and Arabs live there SIDE BY SIDE in peace and friendship. And it is not necessary in order to do so to give up either any part of the 23% of the Jewish Democratic nature of the State of Israel, nor to dislocate the 77% of the Palestine Mandate now called Jordan where Palestinian Arabs are the majority.

http://mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3778

and

Jordan is Palestine. Palestine is Jordan.

This is the royal decree and sentiments of two of the kings of Jordan.

"Palestine and Jordan are one..." said King Abdullah in 1948.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan," said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981.

Let's closely examine the facts of history from the Arab perspective, rather than the Jewish one, regarding Jordan and Palestine.

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is only one land, with one history and one and the same fate," Prince Hassan of the Jordanian National Assembly was quoted as saying on February 2, 1970.

Accordingly, Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, "The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture."

the rest of the article: http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/janfeb04/jordan.html

[Aziz]

will Arab east Jerusalem be returned to Palestinians?

[Mira]

will Arab east Jerusalem be returned to Palestinians?

not right now, Aziz. but if an independent palestinian state is formed in the remainder of the west bank and gaza and that state becomes a place that arabs in east jerusalem want to be citizens of, I don't see how israel can keep it forever. right now, many arabs living in east jerusalem prefer their status because of the rights and benefits they receive from israel.

[ygalg1]

I like your signature Mira

[FOGOMAINS]

not right now, Aziz. but if an independent palestinian state is formed in the remainder of the west bank and gaza and that state becomes a place that arabs in east jerusalem want to be citizens of, I don't see how israel can keep it forever. right now, many arabs living in east jerusalem prefer their status because of the rights and benefits they receive from israel.

Can terrorist claim and create an independent state? I'm sure they would use east Jerusalem as launch-site for their rockets:rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

Interestingly the Hamas have not moved to make some grand gesture over the Dome of the Rock. Having won the election in true Diebold-Republican style, one would think they'd have decreed all of the al Aqsa offlimits to infidels forever, etc etc etc..... but they haven't. Curious.

[FOGOMAINS]

Interestingly the Hamas have not moved to make some grand gesture over the Dome of the Rock. Having won the election in true Diebold-Republican style, one would think they'd have decreed all of the al Aqsa offlimits to infidels forever, etc etc etc..... but they haven't. Curious.

They are to busy running the cartoon-riots and look for big spenders to build an army:cool:

Love the phrase "infidel";) in our language we use to say "he/she is totally `fidel`" meaning that one is feeling well:)

[Muslima]

Interestingly the Hamas have not moved to make some grand gesture over the Dome of the Rock. Having won the election in true Diebold-Republican style, one would think they'd have decreed all of the al Aqsa offlimits to infidels forever, etc etc etc..... but they haven't. Curious.

I think you misunderstand Hamas a little, Med,

Here is what Khaled Mishaal (head of Hamas) said the other day,



"Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1698702,00.html

and another thing, it isn't just the Al Aqsa that Muslims hold dear, it's the entire land, the land of the Prophets

[genghis_tom]

Unfortunately, Muslima, Khaled Mishaal is only one leader among thousands of clerics and govt. leaders that has the courage not to make his statements anti-Jew and anti-Jew only.
Yes, there are more of men like Mr. Mishaal, but they are overshadowed by the violent extremist sentiment so prevalent today.

[minusthejihad]

I think you misunderstand Hamas a little, Med,

Here is what Khaled Mishaal (head of Hamas) said the other day,



"Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1698702,00.html

and another thing, it isn't just the Al Aqsa that Muslims hold dear, it's the entire land, the land of the Prophets

It doesn't matter how they sugarcoat their hatred. Justice will be served when every single Hamas leader, operative, comptroller, etc. is a pile of smoldering dust in a crater in the ground in gaza.

[genghis_tom]

It doesn't matter how they sugarcoat their hatred. Justice will be served when every single Hamas leader, operative, comptroller, etc. is a pile of smoldering dust in a crater in the ground in gaza.
That's the attitude that reinforces Medio's theory of a long grinding offensive (Thread:A just peace or...)
I don't know what Mishaal has said before, but you have to admit that it is a step in a peaceful direction.

[Muslima]

It doesn't matter how they sugarcoat their hatred. Justice will be served when every single Hamas leader, operative, comptroller, etc. is a pile of smoldering dust in a crater in the ground in gaza.

Can you be a bit more explicit here Minus,

Give me examples of their "hatred", that they sugar coat.

And Genghis-Tom, Hamas have always said what Khaled Mishaal re-iterated here, he didn't say anything new.

[genghis_tom]

Can you be a bit more explicit here,
Give me examples of their "hatred", and how they sugar coat it.

Here is one.
Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture.
This by itself is, I admit, a noble statement.
It is the "our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people".
This is why we fight you, it says. Hate and violence are still there, but sugarcoated, as minusthejihad says.
Mishaal is going farther towards peace with his statements, but hate and violence are still there. Hate and violence are still there.

[Mira]

Interestingly the Hamas have not moved to make some grand gesture over the Dome of the Rock. Having won the election in true Diebold-Republican style, one would think they'd have decreed all of the al Aqsa offlimits to infidels forever, etc etc etc..... but they haven't. Curious.

Al Aqsa is currently under Hashemite control.

[genghis_tom]

And Genghis-Tom, Hamas have always said what Khaled Mishaal re-iterated here, he didn't say anything new.
Actions speak stronger than words, so why hasn't Hamas done anything new?

[Mira]

I like your signature Mira

thanks, ygalg.:)

[Mediocrates]

Al Aqsa is currently under Hashemite control.

Nominally - it's a token representation.

[Mira]

Nominally - it's a token representation.How do you reckon? They are in charge of maintaining the structural integrity of the mosque and doing all the renovation. Control was taken out of the PA's hands last year and placed into the sole custody of Jordan, a move that was backed by all of the Arab governments because of the PA's politicization of the mosque. That's why you don't hear about the issue anymore. Not even the Iranians question Jordanian authority over the mosque because of Hashemite lineage.

[Mediocrates]

I think you misunderstand Hamas a little, Med,

Here is what Khaled Mishaal (head of Hamas) said the other day,



"Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

full article here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1698702,00.html

and another thing, it isn't just the Al Aqsa that Muslims hold dear, it's the entire land, the land of the Prophets


Spin it however you want.

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD108706

I for one look forward to Hamas Taliban-lite just to see the astonished looks on your faces.

[Mediocrates]

How do you reckon? They are in charge of maintaining the structural integrity of the mosque and doing all the renovation. Control was taken out of the PA's hands last year and placed into the sole custody of Jordan, a move that was backed by all of the Arab governments because of the PA's politicization of the mosque. That's why you don't hear about the issue anymore. Not even the Iranians question Jordanian authority over the mosque because of Hashemite lineage.

They're not in charge of rallying people to go there. Which is why the Israeli police typically have a presence their to restrict on some occasions, the age and number of men who may attend at any given time. Certainly this mob control will end.

[genghis_tom]

They are in charge of maintaining the structural integrity of the mosque and doing all the renovation.
Really? Just because King Hussein makes it more shiny?

[Mira]

Really? Just because King Hussein makes it more shiny?It's more than that. The Palestinian Waqf was doing extensive excavations that were underminng the structural integrity of the mosque and adjacent wall. The Jordanians put an end to that. The main point is that the Muslim world is satisfied with the Jordanians as custodians for Islamic holy sites.

[genghis_tom]

Sure, sure. Take the easy path and argue my point and not Mediocrates's. :)
(just kidding, by the way)

[Mira]

They're not in charge of rallying people to go there. Which is why the Israeli police typically have a presence their to restrict on some occasions, the age and number of men who may attend at any given time. Certainly this mob control will end.

The Jordanians and Israelis work surprisingly well together on security matters. Neither country profits from any turmoil.

[Mira]

Spin it however you want.

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD108706

I for one look forward to Hamas Taliban-lite just to see the astonished looks on your faces.


Lest there be any more confusion about what the term "occupation" really means...At least the West will understand now that when the Palestinians call to end the "occupation," they are referring to the land that was allocated to Israel by the UN in 1948 too.

[Mediocrates]

Sure, sure. Take the easy path and argue my point and not Mediocrates's. :)
(just kidding, by the way)


I can be wrong, I'm often wrong. I do not trust them no matter what anyone says. But that's my problem. I'm a professional paranoid.

[Muslima]

Spin it however you want.

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD108706

I for one look forward to Hamas Taliban-lite just to see the astonished looks on your faces.

Med, Hamas said nothing in that Memri article that they didn't say in the Guardian one, regarding Israel.

They deny Israel's right to exist in both articles. They have never hidden that, so what is the spin?

[Mediocrates]

"Before Israel Dies, it Must Be Humiliated and Degraded"
Mash'al: "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day. America will be of no avail to them. Their generals will be of no avail to them. The last of their generals has been forgotten. Allah has made him disappear. He's over. Gone is that Sharon behind whose back they would hide and find shelter, and with whom they would feel relatively secure. Today they have frail leaders, who don't even know where our Lord placed them.
"Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains.
[...] "Their weapons will be of no avail to them. Their nuclear weapons will be of no use to them. They thought that they had hegemony over the region with their nuclear weapons, but suddenly Pakistan popped up with Islamic nuclear weapons, and they are afraid of Iran and several Arab countries have some chemical weapons.



I do threat analysis for a living. I would interpret this as an obvious and intentional threat. In fact I would place this in the category of intended actions. If this were the Soviet Union versus the US it would trigger an arms race and possibly a brush war in the third world.

[Muslima]

"Before Israel Dies, it Must Be Humiliated and Degraded"
Mash'al: "Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day. America will be of no avail to them. Their generals will be of no avail to them. The last of their generals has been forgotten. Allah has made him disappear. He's over. Gone is that Sharon behind whose back they would hide and find shelter, and with whom they would feel relatively secure. Today they have frail leaders, who don't even know where our Lord placed them.
"Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains.
[...] "Their weapons will be of no avail to them. Their nuclear weapons will be of no use to them. They thought that they had hegemony over the region with their nuclear weapons, but suddenly Pakistan popped up with Islamic nuclear weapons, and they are afraid of Iran and several Arab countries have some chemical weapons.



I do threat analysis for a living. I would interpret this as an obvious and intentional threat. In fact I would place this in the category of intended actions. If this were the Soviet Union versus the US it would trigger an arms race and possibly a brush war in the third world.

When Hamas say "Israel must die" they don't mean kill off every Israeli citizen. They mean the sovereignty of the land. ie. it must revert back to them. Israel here means "Israel" the title of the country.

As they say, and always have said, it's not the people they want dead, it's the land they want.

Hamas have also said that they are willing to "look at the reality on the ground" and "negotiate for peace"

This means that if Israel plays her card's right, she can work on them using the right people. Khaled Mishaal made it clear that a negotiation on religious grounds would be acceptable ie. with Rebbe's mediating.

Threat analysis for a living? You must be good, or should i say too good for your job lol

[Mediocrates]

You know I don't believe that either you or I are qualified to parse that. I have to believe it's close to what it literally appears to say.


And yes thank you. When people call me paranoid, even a sociopath, that's a good thing. That means they're hiding something.

[minusthejihad]

Can you be a bit more explicit here Minus,

Give me examples of their "hatred", that they sugar coat.


Sure thing Muslima! One sentence at a time:

"Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture."

We're not racists or anti-semites. We just hate you for all the other psuedo-rational reasons.

"Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony;"

But we failed to clarify our point: as Dhimmis and Second Class Citizens, even Slaves and Forced Converts! Isn't that nice!? How could you not want that again dumb Joos!

"they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected."

Of course since these "people of the book" do not believe that Muhammed is a prophet or their righteous leader, then all other contracts are null and void! Ooops, did we leave THAT out?

"Our conflict with you is not religious but political."

Again, we don't hate Jews, we just hate Jews who happen to be Israelis or whom are known as Zionists outside of Israel. Go back to where you came from (we're too dumb to do our own research, but some other ignorant Islamist idiot told us you came from Europe) so go back there and we won't kill you, until some Danish Imam says that you drew a naughty picture of Muhamed, then we'll come kill you.

"We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us"

Meaning those quiet pusher over micey Jews in France that don't wear their kippas because they are affraid of us

" - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.""

So, just all Israelis and Zionists including those that actually lived here long ago that we pretend never existed.


You're so funny Muslima. You think we should try to understand sick criminal thugs in order to eventually talk to them, and I think we should hunt them down, torture them as much as possible and then let them die slowly hung from a lightpole (the way Palestinians treat their own by the way) so that the other potential Hamasniks think twice.

[minusthejihad]

Actually Muslima, yopu were growing on me for a bit. But now that I see you are trying to rationalize some cravenly psychotic criminal terrorist murders and their goals, to me, you are no better than them.

Just FYI, these aren't open topics of debate in my household. There is no possibilty of peace with people bent on your destruction in one form or another. If someone enters my house (private property) and tries to justify Hamas's message, they would be treated like a terrorist themeselves, meaning a few good swings of a Louiville slugger to the head. Just as Gil says, the only way to solve anti-semitism is with a Glock 9.

[Muslima]

Actually Muslima, yopu were growing on me for a bit. But now that I see you are trying to rationalize some cravenly psychotic criminal terrorist murders and their goals, to me, you are no better than them.

Just FYI, these aren't open topics of debate in my household. There is no possibilty of peace with people bent on your destruction in one form or another. If someone enters my house (private property) and tries to justify Hamas's message, they would be treated like a terrorist themeselves, meaning a few good swings of a Louiville slugger to the head. Just as Gil says, the only way to solve anti-semitism is with a Glock 9.

I'm not rationalising their actions Minus, i'm aware they are extreme and i don't support them. I do however support them turning over a new leaf, which is what they have indicated they are prepared to do.

Do you think you should just pretend they are not there?

They are in power now, and sorry i don't agree with your solution of killing them off either, this makes you just as extreme as them.

[minusthejihad]

You know what, pre 911 I would have considered myself an apologist for terror. Nowadays my fury against Islamism grows by the day. In another thread I mentioned this, but I think I should start using it as a signature:

"The world is getting tired of waiting for the moderate Muslims to moderate Islam, soon the world will have to moderate Islam for you". Tipping point can't begin to describe what's happening in the world today, while Muslims are showing the world just how peaceful they are.

[minusthejihad]

I'm not rationalising their actions Minus, i'm aware they are extreme and i don't support them. I do however support them turning over a new leaf, which is what they have indicated they are prepared to do.

Bu11!shi'ite! Career criminals and murderers do not turn over a new leaf, nor do they all of the sudden stop lying. They endure justice. Where is the justice for the thousands of innocent Israelis and Americans they have murdered or maimed. I am not Christian. I don't turn the other cheek. I expect full retribution, full justice, for every single person that had a hand in the killings or maiming, even attempted. Do you expect America to start negotiating with Bin Laden? Are you retarded?

Do you think you should just pretend they are not there?

No, as I said, I think they (Hamas leaders and operatives) should be assassinated, one at a time, or together simultaneously. Was I not clear about that? Right now they are separated by a wall and a barrier of protection from the rest of the world. But if they reach over that wall, they should be dealt with appropriately. Is that crystal clear enough for you?

They are in power now, and sorry i don't agree with your solution of killing them off either, this makes you just as extreme as them.

F you, you self righteous fool! I have never murdered, hurt, or aided in doing so to any innocent person, Palestinian or otherwise. THEY HAVE! A criminal murderer is not the same as the policeman that brings justice. I know this may be hard for you to understand, coming from where you do, but that is how the civilized world thinks. You can take your Moral Equivalency and Moral Relativism and shove it where the sun don't shine or in Pakistan, not much of difference if you ask me.

[Muslima]

Bu11!shi'ite! Do you expect America to start negotiating with Bin Laden? Are you retarded?



F you, you self righteous fool! I have never murdered, hurt, or aided in doing so to any innocent person, Palestinian or otherwise. THEY HAVE! A criminal murderer is not the same as the policeman that brings justice. I know this may be hard for you to understand, coming from where you do, but that is how the civilized world thinks. You can take your Moral Equivalency and Moral Relativism and shove it where the sun don't shine or in Pakistan, not much of difference if you ask me.


Bin Laden is a fugitive. He hasn't been voted in to head a "state", is never going to be and isn't getting any pressure from the world to '"negotiate" with the USA, the way Hamas is.

And no, it's not hard for me to understand, and don't target your anger at me.

Your post it is contradictory. The "civilised" world is pressuring Hamas to do exactly the opposite to what you're advocating??

I havn't heard any of the heads of the "civilised world" calling for what you just advocated, but i do hear calls (Jack Straw, Blair, and Bush just to name a few) ie. telling Hamas to sit down, renounce violence and negotiate? Including your very own Bush? How does this tie in with your "do you expect Bush to negotiate with Bin Laden?"

[minusthejihad]

Bin Laden is a fugitive. He hasn't been voted in to head a "state", is never going to be and isn't getting any pressure from the world to '"negotiate" with the USA, the way Hamas is.

And no, it's not hard for me to understand, and don't target your anger at me.

Your post it is contradictory. The "civilised" world is pressuring Hamas to do exactly the opposite to what you're advocating??

I havn't heard any of the heads of the "civilised world" calling for what you just advocated, but i do hear calls (Jack Straw, Blair, and Bush just to name a few) ie. telling Hamas to sit down, renounce violence and negotiate? Including your very own Bush? How does this tie in with your "do you expect Bush to negotiate with Bin Laden?"

It ties into Bush is an idiot and he is selling out Israel. I don't care what other beuarocrats think. I want them dead and I hope everyday they will get what they deserve.