The Peres-Arafat Connection

[Bibi4ever]

Seems like every time Israel is about to strike back at the Arab terrorists, Peres throws a hissy fit and threatens to break the unity government.

I wonder under what conditions did he join in the first place.

Peres is and always has been an Arafat supporter, backing the arch-terrorist for fear of worse successors. Too bad that this fear is now standing in the way of taking strong action to eliminate terror.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by Bibi4ever
Seems like every time Israel is about to strike back at the Arab terrorists, Peres throws a hissy fit and threatens to break the unity government.

I wonder under what conditions did he join in the first place.

Peres is and always has been an Arafat supporter, backing the arch-terrorist for fear of worse successors. Too bad that this fear is now standing in the way of taking strong action to eliminate terror.

Yes, Peres is the single cause of Israel not striking harder and eliminating arabs terrorism.

Peres is delusional if he thinks that there will ever be peace with Arafat.

For some reason, though, the leftist part of Israeli society thinks that if only Israel will allow muslim mass murderers to continue to operate, Arafat will stop demanding the destruction of Israel. You can draw you own conclusions...

[EZwriter]

Originally posted by Not Beilin


Yes, Peres is the single cause of Israel not striking harder and eliminating arabs terrorism.

Peres is delusional if he thinks that there will ever be peace with Arafat.

For some reason, though, the leftist part of Israeli society thinks that if only Israel will allow muslim mass murderers to continue to operate, Arafat will stop demanding the destruction of Israel. You can draw you own conclusions...

Well, he's not exactly the "single" cause. That doesn't take into account the pressure from the entire international community.

Let's not also forget that the leftists make up a large part of isreali society. Peres is just a representative of those people.

[takeo]

it is now clear that most of the participants in this forum are Likud-adepts and want terror and war against all palestinians, terrorists or no terrorists. He should have left this fascist government a long time ago, if he wants to remain a little respectability.
And somehow i hope the left retreats completely from this government and the government will take radical mesures against the palestinians, killing 1000's and of course Arafat as well and condamning any peace-plan or negotiation (that is the policy most of you want). It will possibly lead to international isolation and sanctions against Israel, and of course to more violence in- and outside Israel. This will make Israel a pariah-state in the world, a "roughe" state (it is already to many but not yet the US or GB), possibly international sanctions as well.

[takeo]

it will be a matter of years before Israel will be in such a weak position (economically, politically, militarily) that it has to do compromises it never was willing to do untill now. but let's hope for now that it won't be necessary and next elections people will vote for labour or meretz (unfortunately it is not so likely).

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
but let's hope for now that it won't be necessary and next elections people will vote for labour or meretz (unfortunately it is not so likely).

A vote for Meretz is a vote for becoming a bullseye target for Palestinian missiles.

[takeo]

yes i know that is your opinion about peace.

a vote for Sharon is a vote for more war and more suicide-attacks. you could as well give your vote to hamas, Sharon does a good pr-service to these guys, destroying Arafat, making stronger the flame of hate and making all negotiated solutions more delusive than ever.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by takeo
yes i know that is your opinion about peace.

a vote for Sharon is a vote for more war and more suicide-attacks. you could as well give your vote to hamas, Sharon does a good pr-service to these guys, destroying Arafat, making stronger the flame of hate and making all negotiated solutions more delusive than ever.

I only wish Sharon was free to destroy Arafat. Then we could all move on to the next Palestinian alternative which has got to be better than Arafat. Maybe then there would be peace.

Meretz is a legalized traitor party and I agree with Newsguy that voting for them is voting for suicide.

[takeo]

When you destroy Arafat you will find nobody on the other side willing to compromise with Israel, in that case the radicals will take over on the other side too. Most Palestinians consider Arafat to be too soft and should lead counter-attacks against the Israeli terror. But he still has a lot of autority that make people to accept arafat (while not always complying to his words). All the lower ranking palestinians are more radical than Arafat, even the Christian Hanan Ashrawi.

Meretz is a legalized traitor party ."
Wow, more fascist language to come.
If meretz would have won the last elections there would be a palestinian state by now and israel would a be a peaceful country living in peace with its neighbours (due to strong security mesures included with the peace-plan) and there would be more palestinians living in Israel and no more hotbeds of terrorism(refugee camps). The golan heights would have been returned to syria and both syria and Libanon would have concluded peace-treaties with israel and recognised it. Israel would have been fully accepted in the international community and establish good relations with most countries in the world.

[NewsGuy]

More Peres support for Arafat:

From SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/news/0201/20/world/world7.html): Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has denounced a growing call among Israel's mainstream right-wing to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat from the occupied territories. "It is easy to say that Arafat should be expelled, but he was elected by the Palestinians and we must not appear as if we are the ones who choose the leader of the Palestinian people," Peres said on public radio today.

"Those who want to ger rid of him, could soon find themselves dealing in his place with Hamas and Islamic Jihad as we found ourselves dealing with Hezbollah in Lebanon," Peres said.

Peres was referring to the two most powerful radical Islamic groups in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the main challengers to Arafat's authority, and to the fundamentalist Hezbollah movement in Lebanon.

"Those who demand this type of solution are acting in a fit of rage. We must act with prudence and continue to demand of Yasser Arafat that he move firmly against terrorism," Peres said.

[takeo]

israeli politics is full of traitors who don't support a radical solution for The Palestinian Problem !!!!!!
why not make an end to their misery as you are planning to do with Arafat and the palestinian people as a whole...

[takeo]

Some people in israel still have some reason left!!!!!!!!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Some people in israel still have some reason left!!!!!!!!

I don't know about "reason";), but I am very glad to have diverse opinions in Israel regarding government and social policy.

Maybe in your political circles differences of opinion are squashed, but I (and most democratic supporters) invite pluralism. The more intelligent input, the better the result is ultimately. This is the basis of Israel's democracy and electoral system.

In fact, every government in Israel has had to form a coalition, including Sharon who has worked admirably with Peres.

And even though Sharon could have easily formed a majority coalition with the religious parties, and could have parted ways with Peres, Sharon still invited Peres and Labour to stay on.

Why do you think Sharon is keeping Peres on, takeo? Maybe the answer to this will lead you to understand the concept of Israel's democracy and political freedom somewhat better.

[takeo]

"Maybe in your political circles differences of opinion are squashed, but I (and most democratic supporters) invite pluralism. The more intelligent input, the better the result is ultimately. This is the basis of Israel's democracy and electoral system. "
Our country is a lot more pluralistic than Israel were a really narrow-minded group of extremists controll most of the press and where the public opinion is violently anti-arab without any moderation or debate. The left (meretz, peace-groups) are a voice in the desert. Anyway on this board i don't see much of this democratic principles, people not comlpying are treatened, insulted and smashed with emotional, unreasonable and downright racist arguments. as i see from you posts political opponents in israel get the same treatment and the Israeli arabs have to shut up or face angry mobs.
Here everyone can have its opinion and also about the israeli policy there is a lot of debate and all parties are invited, pro-and contra, nobody gets insulted. It seems more democratic to me, but this might just be an opinion.



"And even though Sharon could have easily formed a majority coalition with the religious parties, and could have parted ways with Peres, Sharon still invited Peres and Labour to stay on. "

He did so because he knew that he is considered an extremist and that a too extremist policy (which would be a government of ultra-right and Likud) would severely isolate israel from the US. He needed some "peace-dove" in his government to appease international critics (why do you think Perez is minister of external affairs?)

[NewsGuy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]"Maybe in your political circles differences of opinion are squashed, but I (and most democratic supporters) invite pluralism. The more intelligent input, the better the result is ultimately. This is the basis of Israel's democracy and electoral system. "

"Anyway on this board i don't see much of this democratic principles, "

Maybe you don't see it. But anyone is entitled to express their opinion here. Sure enough, we have opinions from all kinds of people, including Arabs, Israelis, Americans, Europeans, Asians.


"as i see from you posts political opponents in israel get the same treatment and the Israeli arabs have to shut up or face angry mobs."

What "angry mobs" are you talking about? As I said before, 1.5 million Arabs are living in Israel with a high standard of living, better than in any Arab country, and they elect their own ministers to the Knesset, all courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer. What else could they ask for?


"Here everyone can have its opinion and also about the israeli policy there is a lot of debate and all parties are invited, pro-and contra, nobody gets insulted."

I suppose you mean France, where if you are Jewish, you get firebombed and assaulted by government-incited Arab mobs?

"He needed some "peace-dove" in his government to appease international critics (why do you think Perez is minister of external affairs?)

First of all, Peres demanded that position which is the most prestigious and sought-after position in Israel after the PM.

Secondly, Sharon took Peres as a democratic compromise to have enough of a concensus among Israelis, so he could have the political power to make the painful concessions to the Arabs and still have popular backing.

As for the US, they will accept any democratically elected Israeli PM. They don't need Peres to support Israel.

You are fooling yourself to try to find everything Israel does to be wrong somehow. If Israel gives the Arabs land, then Israel is wrong because it should give more. If Israel defends itslef from Islamic terrorism, then it is wrong because the poor terrorists are justified. If Israel has a democratic government, then it is wrong becuase it has different points of view. I think that even if Israel jumped into the ocean, you would still think it is wrong becuase they didn't do it fast enough.

[takeo]

"What "angry mobs" are you talking about? As I said before, 1.5 million Arabs are living in Israel with a high standard of living, better than in any Arab country, and they elect their own ministers to the Knesset, all courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer. What else could they ask for? "

We saw what happened when Israeli palestinians demonstrated peacefully on the streets of Israel...
And giving the minorities some rights isn't courtesy but necessary to be a democracy.



"I suppose you mean France, where if you are Jewish, you get firebombed and assaulted by government-incited Arab mobs? "

I suppose you have never been there. There are discussion-programs on television where everyone can say his opinion and there are a lot of peacefull pro- and anti-Israel demonstrations.



"First of all, Peres demanded that position which is the most prestigious and sought-after position in Israel after the PM. "

Maybe so, they wouldn't offer him the job of pm anyway.

"Secondly, Sharon took Peres as a democratic compromise to have enough of a concensus among Israelis, so he could have the political power to make the painful concessions to the Arabs and still have popular backing. "

What painfull concessions are you talking about?????????? Maybe he considers it painfull that he can't yet kill Arafat right away or push trough a total etnic separation?

"As for the US, they will accept any democratically elected Israeli PM. They don't need Peres to support Israel. "

They would accept, but they wouldn't accept an even more extremist policy that would seriously hurt US-interests in the region.

"You are fooling yourself to try to find everything Israel does to be wrong somehow. If Israel gives the Arabs land, then Israel is wrong because it should give more. "

One can't occupy land and just give back the parts you like, that's not how things work.

"If Israel defends itslef from Islamic terrorism, then it is wrong because the poor terrorists are justified. If Israel has a democratic government, then it is wrong becuase it has different points of view. I think that even if Israel jumped into the ocean, you would still think it is wrong becuase they didn't do it fast enough."

It is wrong because they don't attack the extremists but the PA and the Palestinian population and even radio and television (they clearly don't like free expression of opinion).It is also wrong because terror-attacks are just a consequence of israeli aggression and oppression, oppression that Sharon is not willing to stop. it is wrong because israel is denying UN-resolutions.
Anway i saw the Palestinian nr. 2 today on CNN and he said there was talking with the Barak government about a new peace-plan that would be satisfiing to the palestinians, based on the camp-david proposals. When sharon came to office he immidiately torpeded every negociation and choose unconditional for war. So of course he is to blame. it is wrong because during 24 days after Arafat's speach end 2001 the violence seriously diminished but Sharon contiued attacking the PA and murdering palestinians.
he also fabricated a new excuse not to talk with Arafat (the boat with arms). now it has been clear that this romanian ship was used by the Israeli government on several occasions before.

[aid]

"Our country is a lot more pluralistic than Israel were a really narrow-minded group of extremists controll most of the press and where the public opinion is violently anti-arab without any moderation or debate."

Pile of BS.

"The left (meretz, peace-groups) are a voice in the desert."

Theyare not in the desert. It's simply they have nothing to say to make any sense. Accordingly no one is listening to them anymore.

People have seen what happens when you allow dreamers, crazies, and, worst of all, red fascists, run Israle's policy.

And they decided: enough is is enough.

No takeo, no deaths.

[NewsGuy]

takeo,

"We saw what happened when Israeli palestinians demonstrated peacefully on the streets of Israel...
And giving the minorities some rights isn't courtesy but necessary to be a democracy."

The "Israeli" Arabs decided to go on a violent rampage and therefore got what they deserved.

There's also a concept in democracy that when a country is at war and its citizens provide support and comfort for that country's enemies, then they are considered traitors and are dealt with as the situation requires.

As for rights, the Israeli Arabs have more economic and political rights than they have in any Muslim country, including the Palestinian-occupied territories, which is a mistake, IMO for Israel to give its enemies the benefit of its meager resources.


"I suppose you have never been there. There are discussion-programs on television where everyone can say his opinion and there are a lot of peacefull pro- and anti-Israel demonstrations."

Well, I haven't been to Alaska neither, but I know that there are Eskimos there. So what?

It is undeniable that France and Belgium have a very high rate of anti-semitic incidents and where hate-crimes against Jews are encouraged by its leaders' distorted Mideast policies. It has become almost stylish there to be anti-semitic.

I would even go so far as to say that France is the first Arab country in Europe, and Belgium is an Arab stooge acting as the Arabs' kangaroo court.


"It is wrong because they don't attack the extremists but the PA..."

PA = extrmists and should be attacked.

[takeo]

You and the mainstream israeli media have decided that they are dreamers (in fact you are a dreamer to think to achieve peace without the pals) and have nothing to say, so they are not allowed to defend their positions anymore in the media. But that's not how democracy works.



"There's also a concept in democracy that when a country is at war and its citizens provide support and comfort for that country's enemies, then they are considered traitors and are dealt with as the situation requires. "

So demonstrating peacefully because children are getting shot is an act of treason? So i guess you would label the anti-Vietnam demonstrators as well as traitors and advise to shoot at them?

"As for rights, the Israeli Arabs have more economic and political rights than they have in any Muslim country, including the Palestinian-occupied territories, which is a mistake, IMO for Israel to give its enemies the benefit of its meager resources. "

So you consider them to be the ennemy because they have a different religion, that's what i call a democratic mentality!
they have more rights than the occupied palestinians of course. If israel considers itself to be a democracy, all its citizens should be equal, apparently it is not, so no better than any of its neighbours.


"Well, I haven't been to Alaska neither, but I know that there are Eskimos there. So what? "

So i heard all eskimo's live in iglo's

"It is undeniable that France and Belgium have a very high rate of anti-semitic incidents and where hate-crimes against Jews are encouraged by its leaders' distorted Mideast policies. It has become almost stylish there to be anti-semitic.
I would even go so far as to say that France is the first Arab country in Europe, and Belgium is an Arab stooge acting as the Arabs' kangaroo court. "


lol, you have no idea what you are talking about and totally ignorant about reality, which is normal if you don't know anything about it except what you read in some extremist articles, in fact France and Belgium are less anti-semitic than the us! In the uS you hear people complaining about "the jews" especially in the south, while in france and Belgium everyone considers them to be citizens as any other, and there is far less racism against them than against Arabs (who have sometimes difficulties to find a good job).
the interior situation in France and belgium and the human rights abuses in the Middle East are two separated things, which at most can provoke some Arab (only 10 % of the population) incitement. Jews in France and israeli troops in gaza have nothing in common with eachother, and many French jews condamn Israel for its policy. Wich shows that French jews are more educated, democratic and develloped than American jews.

[NewsGuy]

"So demonstrating peacefully because children are getting shot is an act of treason?"

There are constant peaceful demonstartions that Israel allows, as is the case in civilized democracies. But the ones we are discussing here were not peaceful. Attacking Jews and throwing firebombs at Israelis might be peaceful in your opinion, but not in mine.


"So you consider them to be the ennemy because they have a different religion, that's what i call a democratic mentality!"

No, I consider many Palestinians to be enemies because they openly take actions to destroy Israel and the Jewish people.


"... in france and Belgium everyone considers them to be citizens as any other, and there is far less racism against them than against Arabs (who have sometimes difficulties to find a good job).
the interior situation in France and belgium and the human rights abuses in the Middle East are two separated things, which at most can provoke some Arab (only 10 % of the population) incitement. ...

I'm not sure if you are just ignorant about the facts, or if you do know the facts and are deperately trying to deny the reality because it would be too scary for you to know what a huge percentage of your French and Belgian countrymen despise your Jewishness. Ths is true no matter what your political opinions might be. You can be sure that in their eyes one Jew is the same as the next and all the fancy leftist talk won't change that.

I don't deny that there exist racist groups in the US (including the Arab community) which are anti-semitic. This is true in every country in the world. No enthnic group is in love with one another, so far as I've ever seen.

But in France and Belgium, the establishment itself is anti-Semitic and the official governement actions and policies are directly responsible for encouraging anti-semitic violence.

There is a complete silence from the intellectual, financial and political elite in those countries about the outburst of anti-semitism. Silence = complicity.

And btw - 10% of a population is a very significant chunk of the country. Certainly enough to manipulate the politicians and the media, and influence the domestic and international policy of France and Belgium.

[aid]

Wich shows that French jews are more educated, democratic and develloped than American jews.

Which shows, eh, how to put it more delicately - extreme childish naivete of the author of this immortal quotation.

Grow up kid.



:D

[takeo]

It isn't childish naivete, it is a scientific conclusion after a torough comparition.

"There are constant peaceful demonstartions that Israel allows, as is the case in civilized democracies. But the ones we are discussing here were not peaceful. Attacking Jews and throwing firebombs at Israelis might be peaceful in your opinion, but not in mine. "

peace-minded Israeli can (still) demonstrate peacefully, however palestinian Israeli can not.




"No, I consider many Palestinians to be enemies because they openly take actions to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. "

Not the palestinians who are citizens of Israel, they are the victim of racism.


"I'm not sure if you are just ignorant about the facts, or if you do know the facts and are deperately trying to deny the reality because it would be too scary for you to know what a huge percentage of your French and Belgian countrymen despise your Jewishness. Ths is true no matter what your political opinions might be. You can be sure that in their eyes one Jew is the same as the next and all the fancy leftist talk won't change that. "

So you know better than me, who lives there, how French and Belgian people and politicians think, without you've ever been there? BS! I have NEVER encountered anti-semitism from belgian or french people who are not from muslim origin(85 to 90 %), in the US on several occastions (even the Afro-american cap-driver in NY who was my first contact with the US-civilisation was talking **** about "jews who controll thos town", such a thing would be shocking and unsual in France or belgium).
And Arabs don't controll french or Belgian politics as there are very few arab politicians represented in parliament or anywhere else, compared to Jews they are really underrepresented in the french economic-political-cultural establishment.
The government of Belgium and France both have Jew members (no Arab members) in it, and prime minister Jospin HIMSELF has Jewish origins (3 others as well). their policy isn't even the slightest anti-semitic, but the foreign policy is treating Israel according to the democratic principles : countries that don't comply to international regulations and rules and don't care about human rights will not be good friends of Belgium or France. It means that French and belgian relations with most arab countries AND with Israel are pretty bad because of this, and the reason why Spain is not willing to extradite al-quaida suspects to the US (because they will not be treated according the Geneva-conventions) , Europe tries to act according to some etic principles, the US only cares about real-politics and interests.


"There is a complete silence from the intellectual, financial and political elite in those countries about the outburst of anti-semitism. Silence = complicity. "

There isn't an outburst of anti-semitism, otherwise it wouldn't be silent. besides there are daily debates about the Middle-east on television in which some side with israel and some with palestine, but the ones who defend israel defend the Israel that was ruled by Labour, nobody in France likes Sharon. Since the election of a war-criminal Israel has made itself a "rogue-state".
The silence in the US about the situation in the occupied territories has always been a kind of complicity however.