English is a diffi... difficult language

[sharonbn]

Amir Peretz is the new chairman of the Labor party.
He gave a speech in English well... sorta English... at the opening of the new Rabin center.

Hit play on the Video box.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3169166,00.html

[Mediocrates]

JFK's famous

"Ich bin ein Berliner"

Translates ideomatically to

"I am a pastry"
since a Berliner is a pastry. What he meant to say was

"Ich bin Berliner"


But to be fair whenever I hear Bush speak it sounds like he's the translator.

[Saffira]

Amir Peretz is the new chairman of the Labor party.
He gave a speech in English well... sorta English... at the opening of the new Rabin center.

Hit play on the Video box.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3169166,00.html

Hey, his English is not too bad, but when I press play, my system closes down, so I have to re-start the internet service again. Twice I had to re-start AOL.

Lucky I have broadband and not a 56k dial up modem.

[genghis_tom]

My personal favorite example of the fallacies of English comes from a newspaper headline...
"Giant Police Exercise to Guard Bush"

[Ariksan]

It's even more disastrous when you think that he probably didn't write the speech in English himself but only had to read what was given to him by a translator or his aide. English isn't my native tongue either but Hebrew and I don't think that he should be able to speak perfect queen's English. But as a leader aspiring for greater roles which will include international relations a certain degree of understanding of the English language should be a self-evident requirement. But in Israel having success in the political realm has much more to do with nepotism and dirty games then with actual achievement and qualification.

[Toga]

Only the stupid Jews will pick a leader of the opposition who looks like a truck driver with a truck driver's mentality. Don't get me wrong! I have nothing against the truck drivers and many of them are great people but how many of them are of the Prime Minister's material. A leader must be a good communicator, be well educated, have a great command of English, be worldly, have a presence, etc. Unfortunately, Peretz is void of all such quailities. Does he even speak Arabic? Let's hope he does!

In any case, Jews could have done better but what do we know? Hopefully, the Arabs will like him as he comes across as underachiver.

[KSO]

Why should he speak english? does the american president speaks hebrew?

[Toga]

The USA is dependent on Israel but not as much as Israel is dependent on the USA.

English is the international language of commerce, politics, etc. It is spoken by the most advanced countries in the world. The majority of the Israelis speak English. The knowledge of English is sufficient to function in Israel. It is also a beautiful language. It is shameful that the leader of the opposition does not have a good command of it.

He may not fit to be a leader!

[KSO]

The USA is dependent on Israel but not as much as Israel is dependent on the USA.

English is the international language of commerce, politics, etc. It is spoken by the most advanced countries in the world. The majority of the Israelis speak English. The knowledge of English is sufficient to function in Israel. It is also a beautiful language. It is shameful that the leader of the opposition does not have a good command of it.

He may not fit to be a leader!

The US is not dependent on Israel at all, Israel can dissapear tommorow and 95% of Americans won't even notice, the Israeli dependance is a different thing though.
b. Knowledge of english is important but apparently not crucial, I don't see the leaders of Russia, China Or the US get any less respect for not speaking english.
c. What is fit to be a leader? I kinda learned to like sharon for one reason only he is the first Israeli-Arab dictator, the great thing about him that he could be syria's or egypt's president and no one will notice, but my opinion on Peretz is: "Can a union leader with a giant moustache become the Prime Minister of Israel? Hopefully yes.

[Ariksan]

Why should he speak english? does the american president speaks hebrew?

This has nothing to do with the US. As Toga noted English is the international language of commerce. All international contracts are in English - most agreements he would have to sign will be in English. Every company in the world and Israel with international relations or international business interests will only hire people that speak and understand English - it's not have to be perfect like a native speaker but at the very least cambridge first or advanced certicate if not proficiency for middle and upper management. But couriously the requirements for Prime Minister are much lower ;).

[Toga]

The US is not dependent on Israel at all, Israel can dissapear tommorow and 95% of Americans won't even notice, the Israeli dependance is a different thing though.
b. Knowledge of english is important but apparently not crucial, I don't see the leaders of Russia, China Or the US get any less respect for not speaking english.
c. What is fit to be a leader? I kinda learned to like sharon for one reason only he is the first Israeli-Arab dictator, the great thing about him that he could be syria's or egypt's president and no one will notice, but my opinion on Peretz is: "Can a union leader with a giant moustache become the Prime Minister of Israel? Hopefully yes.

Obviously, you don't understand the interdependence in the world. Israel is an American line of defense. Israel was instrumental for the USA in the disintegration of the USSR.

[KSO]

Obviously, you don't understand the interdependence in the world. Israel is an American line of defense. Israel was instrumental for the USA in the disintegration of the USSR.
Ahhh no.

[minusthejihad]

Why should he speak english? does the american president speaks hebrew?

Because in today's business marketplace, English is the first language. You really didn't understand that?

[minusthejihad]

Ahhh no.

Funny, but I don't think your posts here have enough importance or clout for anyone to believe an "Ahhh no" out of you.

[genghis_tom]

KSO says "the US is not dependent on Israel at all, Israel can dissapear tommorow and 95% of Americans won't even notice..."
I agree with Toga, and want to add a bit of my own. Many people I know are very concerned with the events of the middle east. Should Israel disappear, you cannot imagine what the resulting outcry would be. American-Israeli relations have been, and will continue to be, very strong.

[Justcurious]

Good to see other nationalities also have difficulties with English. I though our politicians are the only ones who speak clumsy English! ;)

Their written English may be excellent, but pronunciation is another thing.

[genghis_tom]

English is, after all, a patchwork of countless other languages... and American english is even worse! ;)

[Mediocrates]

I remember during the Bosnian war the daily NATO briefings were given by an Englishman who's name I've forgotten. I was mightly impressed by his ability to move seamlessly from English to French to English whether he was listening to a question or giving an answer.


In a completely unrelated direction my nephews were reared by a French speaking African nanny who learned English from who knows where and now they speak English like a foreigner, maybe a South African accent, even though their mother is American. And everyone pokes fun at their African lilting French too.

[Mediocrates]

Good to see other nationalities also have difficulties with English. I though our politicians are the only ones who speak clumsy English! ;)

Their written English may be excellent, but pronunciation is another thing.


As far as I can tell Finnish consists of one sound 'hooooo-ooooooug'. Maybe that's your problem:confused:

[genghis_tom]

Mama mia! Where-a did-a that Finnish comment come-a from? And-a how is that the problem of-a Justcurious?

[Mediocrates]

Just kidding,

seriously though your native language has a strong bearing on being fluent in some other language. Normal adult educated Spanish for example has a vocabulary of maybe 5000 words. In English the analog is 25,000 words. Shakespeare wrote using a 57,000 word vocabulary. So making the change from one language to another is driven largely by the complexity of your native language. Russian? 12 cases? That would be nuts to an English speaker.


So let me ask this - what is the general reading level your major non US newspapers are written to? In the US the New York Times is about 10th grade, the Wall St. Journal about 11 or 12th grade.

[genghis_tom]

And Hebrew...why have an alphabet for print and script?

[Mediocrates]

And as far as I know it's the only alphabet who's first letter is unpronounceable.

[Justcurious]

As far as I can tell Finnish consists of one sound 'hooooo-ooooooug'. Maybe that's your problem:confused:

The main problem is perhaps that we don't pronounce k's, p's and t's with strong aspiration. That ho ho thing is new to me, although I know that your Santa Claus, who comes from Finland, likes to greet children that way, which he never does in his homeland.

All nationalities probably have some typical mistakes. For instance, the Germans always pronounce th (this) in a funny way, the Swedes often mispronounce the letter j (just), etc.

[sharonbn]

actually, in Hebrew, all letters are pronouncable (I think). the names of all letters start with the letter itself - now ain't that neat?

the first letter is Alef. pretty simple I think....

[genghis_tom]

and in Barthelona they thpeak with a lithp. Spanish is hard enough without having to do that...

[genghis_tom]

How hard is it to learn Hebrew? I am just curious.

[Justcurious]

As far as I can tell Finnish consists of one sound 'hooooo-ooooooug'. Maybe that's your problem:confused:

The main problem is perhaps that we don't pronounce k's, p's and t's with strong aspiration. That ho ho thing is new to me, although I know that your Santa Claus, who comes from Finland, likes to greet children that way, which he never does in his homeland (frightening?).

All nationalities probably have some typical mistakes. For instance, the Germans always pronounce th (this) in a funny way, the Swedes often mispronounce the letter j (just), etc.

[SteveK]

Wait. The fun will really begin when he tries to give foreign news conferences.

[Mediocrates]

actually, in Hebrew, all letters are pronouncable (I think). the names of all letters start with the letter itself - now ain't that neat?

the first letter is Alef. pretty simple I think....


The sound of aleph is no sound. That's so Jewish, isn't it?

[sharonbn]

that depends. aleph may sound like A (like in aleph...) or sometimes may sound like other letters, or sometimes don't sound at all. yep, its preatty confusing.

however, its no more confusing than english peculiarities like pronounciation of the word door vs. the word book? and don't get me started with the whole slient 'gh' or 'gh' that's actually 'f' .... the list goes on....

I guess every language has its pronounciation and vocabulary peculiarities. well... computer languages don't... :)

[Mediocrates]

Sure they do. C or Perl; can be written 10 million different ways and most of them are wrong. But none of them are as arbitrary as C++

8>(


Go Eiffel, go APL, Go WATFIV !!!

8>)

[Justcurious]

This is a little tool where you may show different ways of pronunciation. Unfortunately all the texts are in Finnish, but there is not much you have to know.

Write your text in the open space and then choose in the drop down menu whether you want the speaker to be calm, restless, female, low or fast. Then by ticking one of the two boxes you can choose Donald Duck's voice or a robot voice.

Have fun!

http://www.mikropuhe.com/demo.asp

[SteveK]

This is a little tool where you may show different ways of pronunciation. Unfortunately all the texts are in Finnish, but there is not much you have to know.

Write your text in the open space and then choose in the drop down menu whether you want the speaker to be calm, restless, female, low or fast. Then by ticking one of the two boxes you can choose Donald Duck's voice or a robot voice.

Have fun!

http://www.mikropuhe.com/demo.asp


What fun!!! But, forget about a Finnish Donald Duck. I heard the Finnish voices say "Israeli atheist brazen dogs".

[Roland]

The main problem is perhaps that we don't pronounce k's, p's and t's with strong aspiration.
Zis could be suomi - or an accident? yhteistyökumppaneitamme
Ze tea-age (th) is really hard to learn for Germans. :p

[Toga]

KSO says "the US is not dependent on Israel at all, Israel can dissapear tommorow and 95% of Americans won't even notice..."
I agree with Toga, and want to add a bit of my own. Many people I know are very concerned with the events of the middle east. Should Israel disappear, you cannot imagine what the resulting outcry would be. American-Israeli relations have been, and will continue to be, very strong.

We are not doing Israel any favors by questioning Israel's existence and buying into the anti-Semitic garbage. Jews and Israel will survive long after Finland, Ukraine, Madagascar, Kuwait or any other entity in the world will disappear.

[genghis_tom]

I never thought I'd see Finland, Ukraine, Madagascar, and Kuwait in the same sentence...
The Jews have outlived the mightiest empires the world has ever seen. Does anyone know a Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, or Roman today? And yet Jews are still here. :)

[minusthejihad]

I never thought I'd see Finland, Ukraine, Madagascar, and Kuwait in the same sentence...
The Jews have outlived the mightiest empires the world has ever seen. Does anyone know a Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, or Roman today? And yet Jews are still here. :)

I'm friends with several Persians today. Tehy ain't from Persia per say, but that's what they are called. And don't forget never to call them Arabs accidentally, it's quite offensive.

[genghis_tom]

I did know that you never call an Egyptian an Arab, but I never knew that bit about the Persians, and also did not know that people are still called Persians. I just thought that since medieval Persia is now Iran, Iraq, etc., they would be called Iranians and Iraqis and etc.ians... ;)

[Ariksan]

Iran is kind of a native name of Persia just like Japan is Nippon in Japanese or Deutschland is Germany in German. In fact - Persians or Iranians - whatever you want to call them - are compromised of different ethnical groups and tribes - in ancient times as well as today.

[Toga]

I have a lot of Iranian friends as well. They are not crazy about being called Iranians let alone Arabs. They are right. They are not Arabs. They only want to be identified as Persians.

The Arabs from Egypt love to be identified as Egyptians even though they have no ethnic connection to the ancient Egyptians. The Coptic Christians are the indigenous people of that area.

G-d forbid to call a Lebanese an Arab. Lebanese is a nationality not ethnicity. So, they are actually Arabs but, apparently, they like to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Arab world. Who can blame them? Would anyone like to be associated with Somalia, Sudan or Yemen? Lebanon is known for some incredible groups of people. One of them is a Maronite Christian group, which is exceptionally cultured, worldly and highly educated. They are creme de la creme of Lebanon or any other country where they live including Israel. Unfortunately, many of them are leaving Lebanon for Europe or North America.

[Ariksan]

G-d forbid to call a Lebanese an Arab. Lebanese is a nationality not ethnicity. So, they are actually Arabs but, apparently, they like to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Arab world.

Actually, a high percentage of the Lebanese are no Arabs indeed. Most of the lebanese Christians for example can trace their roots of their families or clans, villages and communites back to times before the imperialist Arab invasion. They are descendents of the native greco syrian people - and some communites are still using Phoenician names. Most of the Arabs and Muslims living in Lebanon only recently immigrated to Lebanon in the course of the last 100 years - just like the many Arabs that immigrated into Eretz Israel during the British mandate.

[Mediocrates]

and in Barthelona they thpeak with a lithp. Spanish is hard enough without having to do that...

I once had a professional partner from Barcelona who would yell at you if you called him Spanish.

"I am CaaTaLaan!"

[Toga]

LOL!

When I was in Barcelona I made that mistake and quickly learned not to make it again.

[Sivan]

Amir Peretz doesn't speak English. How embarrassing. What a scandal. How, exactly, does this clown think he's going to lead the Labor Party – let alone the country - without knowing English?

And how could we, the naive, peace-seeking public, how could we possibly vote for this guy?

The events surrounding the opening of the Yitzhak Rabin Center for Israel Studies quickly turned into a party – a party for Peretz-haters, for those afraid of Peretz, for the media, for racists, for politicians.

There, everyone gathered around the TV, making the most of the opportunity: Come, have a good laugh, everyone! Amir Peretz is breaking his teeth in English!

The Israeli snobbery never even entertained the possibility that Peretz could actually win election and become the political mouth of the Labor Party. Now that it has happened, they have now found an "issue" to get behind to oppose Peretz – by scorning him; by being snobs.

We've seen this script before with former Likud Knesset member David Levy. But in Israel of 2005, it's not nice, and not acceptable, to attack a politician because he came from a development town, because of his background, or because – shhhh! – because he is Sephardic.

So the racism finds a different path to express itself. And this, after we've seen how the country survived a foreign minister who required a translator during his routine visit to Washington. And whereas the presidents of France and Russia seem to manage the affairs of their little countries without speaking English, for some reason, here it is considered a requirement.

And what about this foolish demand to know English? Is Israel not a tiny, Hebrew- and Arabic-speaking country? These are our languages – the language of the Jews and the language of our Arab citizens and our neighboring countries.

In any event, English is not exactly natural around these parts. So why is it treated with such respect?

Because English is the language of the empire. And therefore, it follows that English is the language of power. And in so far as it applies to us, weakness in the English language will be interpreted as weakness and shame.

Because here we are in exile, and these are the rules of exile: The tribal leader, in order to lead, must be acceptable to the land owner, in order to get his approval and blessing. And the land owner of our village speaks English.

By speaking Hebrew we express the connection between the modern Jew and thousands of years of Jewish history, and the choice of the Jewish people to re-establish itself in the Land of Israel as a unique, distinct, independent country.

The fact that most Israelis do not speak Arabic is a signal of our estrangement from a sizeable portion of the citizens of this country, as well as from our neighboring countries and the wider geographic region in which we live. It also shows the estrangement of many Israeli Jews who came from Arab countries from their personal histories.

In as far as our relations with the world are concerned, we have remained the perennial little kid, looking for nothing more than a hug and for someone to understand him.

But international politics is not an encouraging arena, and the hugs one gets in that arena do not come for free.

For years, Israel has conducted a scandalous policy that isolates it from the Arab world. The absurd thing is that the more isolated we become, so the demand for our leaders to know English grows.

And if we absolutely insist on acting like the regional thug, at least let us do it with good public relations arm, in fluent, non-stuttered English.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3170967,00.html

[Muslima]

The fact that most Israelis do not speak Arabic is a signal of our estrangement from a sizeable portion of the citizens of this country, as well as from our neighboring countries and the wider geographic region in which we live. It also shows the estrangement of many Israeli Jews who came from Arab countries from their personal histories.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3170967,00.html

Hebrew and Arabic are similar, about 90% the same or so, aren't they? Even the letters sound similar, aleph , ba , etc.

How different is Hebrew from Aramaic?

[SteveK]

First, think like a Jew, in building and defending the Jewish Homeland.

These Israeli atheist brazen dogs like Amir Peretz don't even understand the lingo of 3,500+ years of Jewish Heritage.

[Sivan]

Hebrew and Arabic are similar, about 90% the same or so, aren't they? Even the letters sound similar, aleph , ba , etc.

How different is Hebrew from Aramaic?
Difficult for me to say . I grew up speaking Arabic before I studied it at school , all Kibbutz schools teach Arabic .
I had a real problem with the reading and writing and dropped Arabic language for English in my third year, although I am fluent in the spoken language but with a very pronounced Israeli accent . I must say here that my Arab friends Hebrew is much better than my Arabic .

[SteveK]

Difficult for me to say . I grew up speaking Arabic before I studied it at school , all Kibbutz schools teach Arabic .
I had a real problem with the reading and writing and dropped Arabic language for English in my third year, although I am fluent in the spoken language but with a very pronounced Israeli accent . I must say here that my Arab friends Hebrew is much better than my Arabic .

Of course your Arab friends' Hebrew is better than your Arabic. Your Arab friends were forced to live in your occupied Land of Israel. Your Young Pig Guards force them to live in the Land of Israel, which you atheist brazen dogs took by the sword and keep by the sword,--- with no God in Heaven to help you.

And, you atheist brazen dogs even forced these Arabs to learn Hebrew,--- the holy language of the JEWS, which was preserved for you along with your Jewish heritage for 3,500+ by the Torah communities, and through 2,000 years of unspeakable persecutions during exile until today. But, you Pig Guards have renounced your Jewish claim and defense of the Land of Israel.

..... these same Torah communities who you Pig Guards have now expelled from their God given Land of Israel.

[Womble]

Sivan, that Ynet article is pure idiocy.

An average domestic politician may or may not know English, it makes little difference as long as their activity is confined to home. But Peretz is a prime minister candidate now- and yes, language is an issue. The same with David Levy- he was a foreign minister of Israel, for God's sake, good English is a professional requirement for such a post.

English is not only the "language of the empire", but the language of the international diplomacy. Anyone entering the field of international diplomacy must know the language. It is that simple. It has squat to do with Peretz being Sephardic. Silvan Shalom is a Moroccan Jew, but I don't see anyone mocking him or his English.

As for speaking Arabic- it is desirable, but no more obligatory than speaking French is for Anglo-Canadians. Hebrew is the primary language of this country, the one everyone should know. Arabic, being the second language, must be represented, but must not be compulsory.

[Womble]

Hebrew and Arabic are similar, about 90% the same or so, aren't they? Even the letters sound similar, aleph , ba , etc.
Not quite. Hebrew and Arabic are only similar in the way two languages of the same linguistic groups can be similar- say, to the same degree as German is similar to Italian. There is a certain commonality of alphabet, grammar and vocabulary, but it is not close enough to allow a person speaking one language to freely understand the other.



How different is Hebrew from Aramaic?
I'd say Aramaic is closer to Hebrew- the ancient Hebrew that is slightly different from modern one in grammar- than Arabic is. The Talmud is written in Aramaic, and most religious Jews can read the Talmud without having to devote time to studying Aramaic first.

[Sivan]

Sivan, that Ynet article is pure idiocy.

An average domestic politician may or may not know English, it makes little difference as long as their activity is confined to home. But Peretz is a prime minister candidate now- and yes, language is an issue. The same with David Levy- he was a foreign minister of Israel, for God's sake, good English is a professional requirement for such a post.

English is not only the "language of the empire", but the language of the international diplomacy. Anyone entering the field of international diplomacy must know the language. It is that simple. It has squat to do with Peretz being Sephardic. Silvan Shalom is a Moroccan Jew, but I don't see anyone mocking him or his English.

As for speaking Arabic- it is desirable, but no more obligatory than speaking French is for Anglo-Canadians. Hebrew is the primary language of this country, the one everyone should know. Arabic, being the second language, must be represented, but must not be compulsory.
It is not compulsory Womble.
I do not think that article is ' pure idiocy ' . My mother is Sephardic from Yemen ,thus the Arabic from birth, my father Ashkenazi from Poland. The language they had in common was Hebrew.
We live in the Middle East , we are not Europe or America . First Hebrew then Arabic then English.
Look at Americans and how limited they are , we have a basic of at least 3 languages , they have one.

[Womble]

It is not compulsory Womble.
I do not think that article is ' pure idiocy ' .
Of course you don't. If you didn't, you wouldn't have posted it, now would you?



We live in the Middle East , we are not Europe or America . First Hebrew then Arabic then English.
Umm no. We are not part of the Arab world, and God forbid we ever become part of that messy area. Arabs are our neighbors, yes, but it does not oblige us anymore than sharing a border with Italy obliges the Swiss to speak Italian. English is not the language of Europe and America alone, it is the language of international communication, the language in which we talk to Turkey, India, Singapore, Greece, Mexico, Argentina, Egypt and Mauritania alike. In any other part of the world, English is the overwhelming choice of second language for this exact reason. Why, pray tell, should we, of all people, favor Arabic over English?



Look at Americans and how limited they are , we have a basic of at least 3 languages , they have one.
And how does it limit them, considering that their language is the one the whole world speaks?

[Justcurious]

I have a lot of Iranian friends as well. They are not crazy about being called Iranians let alone Arabs. They are right. They are not Arabs. They only want to be identified as Persians.

I have this same experience.

Often, mistakes are made, because we simply don't know about people's roots.

An English writer, Mrs Alec Tweedie, wrote in 1896 a travel book about Finland and, more often than not, she referred to us being related to Mongols.
The Finns are Fenno-Ugric, but what is known today, there's no close connection with Mongols.

[minusthejihad]

Look at Americans and how limited they are , we have a basic of at least 3 languages , they have one.

I speak two languages, but I'd say the definition of "limited" means having to learn 3 languages just to do normal business.

[Mediocrates]

So which three languages does Peretz speak?

[Justcurious]

So which three languages does Peretz speak?

Dunno the answer, but when I heard a local newsreader say his name, I thought he must have some Spanish forefathers, although he spells his name Peretz and not Perez.

[KSO]

So which three languages does Peretz speak?

He was born in Morroco so probably Hebrew, Arabic & french.

[Sivan]

Womble, whether you like it or not , we live in the Middle East . Fact not fiction. Arabs are more my cousins than any American.
I guess you are either American or Russian . I am an Israeli and my roots are here in the ME and my knowledge of languages reflects that, as does Amir Peretz's. Where Dovid ha'Melach walked we walked and he did not speak English .

[Toga]

Womble, whether you like it or not , we live in the Middle East . Fact not fiction. Arabs are more my cousins than any American.
I guess you are either American or Russian . I am an Israeli and my roots are here in the ME and my knowledge of languages reflects that, as does Amir Peretz's. Where Dovid ha'Melach walked we walked and he did not speak English .


Hate to disappoint you but the Arabs are NOT our cousins as Abraham sired Ismael before his covenant with G-d. When Abraham sired Itzhak he had the covenant with G-d and therefore was a different man.

[Womble]

Womble, whether you like it or not , we live in the Middle East . Fact not fiction.
Geographically, yes. But it does not oblige us to anything. Learning Arabic would certainly not do any harm, but the Arab world is not, and will never be, as important a partner for us as is the West.

We can speak English to the Arabs. We cannot speak Arabic to the Americans.


Arabs are more my cousins than any American.
If you say so.



I guess you are either American or Russian.
I'm Jewish, my friend. I am a Jewish citizen of Israel, and where I come from is nobody's business but my own.



I am an Israeli and my roots are here in the ME and my knowledge of languages reflects that, as does Amir Peretz's.
Perhaps. But for a prime minister candidate, good English is a necessery skill for the job. You cannot represent your country if you cannot communicate in the language the world uses to communicate.



Where Dovid ha'Melach walked we walked and he did not speak English .
Nor did he speak Arabic ;)

[Sivan]

Hate to disappoint you but the Arabs are NOT our cousins as Abraham sired Ismael before his covenant with G-d. When Abraham sired Itzhak he had the covenant with G-d and therefore was a different man.
Do not say 'our' when you address me . You sir are American, I am an Israeli.
'We' have nothing in common . I have no wish to have anything in common with you sir, you are a racist .

[Sivan]

Geographically, yes. But it does not oblige us to anything. Learning Arabic would certainly not do any harm, but the Arab world is not, and will never be, as important a partner for us as is the West.

We can speak English to the Arabs. We cannot speak Arabic to the Americans.


If you say so.


I'm Jewish, my friend. I am a Jewish citizen of Israel, and where I come from is nobody's business but my own.


Perhaps. But for a prime minister candidate, good English is a necessery skill for the job. You cannot represent your country if you cannot communicate in the language the world uses to communicate.


Nor did he speak Arabic ;)

You were not born here or you would not talk this way. Hebrew and Arabic is more important to us than English will ever be.

[Womble]

You were not born here or you would not talk this way. Hebrew and Arabic is more important to us than English will ever be.
Does it matter if I was or I wasn't? Unless of course you have some kind of delusion of superiority...

[Toga]

Do not say 'our' when you address me . You sir are American, I am an Israeli.
'We' have nothing in common . I have no wish to have anything in common with you sir, you are a racist .

Well...Israeli is a nationality, American is a nationality while Jewish is an ethnicity.

Sorry to disappoint you but the Jews come in all races. I have nothing against any race. Please do not confuse the Jews with the white Europeans who indentify the people based on race.

[Ariksan]

You were not born here or you would not talk this way. Hebrew and Arabic is more important to us than English will ever be.

It is clear from Sivan's questions to Womble that she is a supremacist who thinks that her artifical mapainik identity is superior than all those low-life Mizrahim, Sphardim and low life religious Yidden. Her word is the truth and everyone not following her party line is either a racist or stupid. While her imaginary Arab friends want to kill her she is find with it because in the core her beliefs are suicidal anyhow.

[minusthejihad]

You sir are American, I am an Israeli.

You are sooo cool!

I can be an Israeli whenever I want, I have a birthright, so relax.

[Justcurious]

Well...Israeli is a nationality, American is a nationality while Jewish is an ethnicity.

Sorry to disappoint you but the Jews come in all races. I have nothing against any race. Please do not confuse the Jews with the white Europeans who indentify the people based on race.

Indeed, but I had never heard of Europeans identifying their people based on race! :p

[MGB8]

I am an Israeli to, albeit also an American and living in the US. I live in the US with Arabs, too. Guess what, I'm closer to the Jewish Israelis than to the American Arabs... not because of "American-ness" but because I am of the Tribe of Israel, as are the Israelite Israelis.

Now, that doesn't mean I am disloyal to the great United States. Nor does it mean I don't have many things in common, maybe even more things "in common" with other Americans than with pure Israelis (as opposed to the many Israeli Americans or JEwish Americans). Nu?

Your family is your family. So, if you reject Toga... aren't you really just rejecting being an Israelite (maybe you are not one?) And, in that case... well... you have outed yourself, haven't you?


Do not say 'our' when you address me . You sir are American, I am an Israeli.
'We' have nothing in common . I have no wish to have anything in common with you sir, you are a racist .

[Toga]

Indeed, but I had never heard of Europeans identifying their people based on race! :p

really?

So, the Euros have not persecuted and annhilated the Aborigines in Australia as soon as they landed there? What about Africa? What about the Americas?

You must be living on a different planet than this one.

[Muslima]

Hate to disappoint you but the Arabs are NOT our cousins as Abraham sired Ismael before his covenant with G-d. When Abraham sired Itzhak he had the covenant with G-d and therefore was a different man.

Toga you're not making sense. Can you explain this further......

Abraham made the covenant with God so how does that make Ishmael not his son? If he was still his son, then Ishmael and Itzhak were half brothers and their descendant's are cousins. You say he was a different man after the covenant, but what does that have to do with the children he conceived?


How does what you say, relate to this verse then, when Abraham asked God for a blessing for his son Ishmael too,

Genesis 17:19-20
"19Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. "

[KSO]

You are sooo cool!

I can be an Israeli whenever I want, I have a birthright, so relax.

Yeah kind of like a "first night" right...

[Womble]

Yeah kind of like a "first night" right...
Well, if you insist... :p

[Toga]

Toga you're not making sense. Can you explain this further......

Abraham made the covenant with God so how does that make Ishmael not his son? If he was still his son, then Ishmael and Itzhak were half brothers and their descendant's are cousins. You say he was a different man after the covenant, but what does that have to do with the children he conceived?


How does what you say, relate to this verse then, when Abraham asked God for a blessing for his son Ishmael too,

Genesis 17:19-20
"19Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. "

Muslima, get real! These are the basics.

[Muslima]

Muslima, get real! These are the basics.

I am real, and you did not answer my questions. Can you answer them please

[Cato]

If any of you scripture quoters are interested recent genetic testing have proven that Jews and Kurds are nearly identical to each other and infinitely closer then either the jews are to the arabs or kurds are to the persians.

It is in the bible that Abraham did come from a Kurdish City.

According to science the closest to a brother the jews have are the kurds, and it is confirmed by Abraham's city of origin.

Back on topic Peretz has good enough english, besides how many times has Chirac adressed the American Public in French?

[Toga]

I am real, and you did not answer my questions. Can you answer them please


Muslima, Jews and Arabs are not cousins because Abraham without the covenant was not the same man when he sired Itzhak!

Muslima, Jews are peaceful, ethical, moral and civil living in a democracy surrounded by the Arab tyrannies and their assignees the Palestinian terrorist organizations that are obsessed with killing the innocent men, women and children. There is a world of difference between the 2 groups.

[Toga]

If any of you scripture quoters are interested recent genetic testing have proven that Jews and Kurds are nearly identical to each other and infinitely closer then either the jews are to the arabs or kurds are to the persians.

It is in the bible that Abraham did come from a Kurdish City.

According to science the closest to a brother the jews have are the kurds, and it is confirmed by Abraham's city of origin.

Back on topic Peretz has good enough english, besides how many times has Chirac adressed the American Public in French?

There is a huge difference. While Chirac is full of puss upper class brainy French whore with a complex of superiority Peretz is the trucker type: simple, not pompous, not aristocratic, very plain Jew from the most humble Moroccan Arab Jewish background. He is a tiny fish trying to swim with the sharks. The barracudas of the world like the viral Chirac and tricky Blair would eat him alive.

[KSO]

There is a huge difference. While Chirac is full of puss upper class brainy French whore with a complex of superiority Peretz is the trucker type: simple, not pompous, not aristocratic, very plain Jew from the most humble Moroccan Arab Jewish background. He is a tiny fish trying to swim with the sharks. The barracudas of the world like the viral Chirac and tricky Blair would eat him alive.

You sir are an idiot.

[Sivan]

It is clear from Sivan's questions to Womble that she is a supremacist who thinks that her artifical mapainik identity is superior than all those low-life Mizrahim, Sphardim and low life religious Yidden. Her word is the truth and everyone not following her party line is either a racist or stupid. While her imaginary Arab friends want to kill her she is find with it because in the core her beliefs are suicidal anyhow.

It is clear to me we have another non-Israeli right winger in you sir. I am not a supremacist, I am just amused at how you all insult us so freely yet are not real Israelis.
I am male , why did you think I was female ? The name ? Another sign you know nothing about us. What 'artifical mapainik identity' ? It is not faked unlike most of you here who know nothing about the real Israel.
You should have read what came before in this thread before you said " low-life Mizrahim, Sphardim " my mother is Sephardic .

[Sivan]

There is a huge difference. While Chirac is full of puss upper class brainy French whore with a complex of superiority Peretz is the trucker type: simple, not pompous, not aristocratic, very plain Jew from the most humble Moroccan Arab Jewish background. He is a tiny fish trying to swim with the sharks. The barracudas of the world like the viral Chirac and tricky Blair would eat him alive.

Good. Underestimate him. Peretz is going to surprise you all .

[Womble]

I am male , why did you think I was female ? The name ? Another sign you know nothing about us.
Oh come on now. Are you going to tell me that Sivan isn't normally a female name?


Good. Underestimate him. Peretz is going to surprise you all .
Kind of like Mitzna and Lipkin-Shahak did?

The only surprise I am expecting from that Stalin lookalike is yet another general strike that will hurt the poor working people in favor of the overpaid workers of government monopolies. But don't expect electoral surprises. He will play the ethnic card, yes, more shamelessly than anyone in Israel ever did before, and it might give him a little more of the Mizrahi vote than the Labor usually get- at the cost of the immigrant vote and the vote of the middle class Ashkenazim.

[Womble]

There is a huge difference. While Chirac is full of puss upper class brainy French whore with a complex of superiority Peretz is the trucker type: simple, not pompous, not aristocratic, very plain Jew from the most humble Moroccan Arab Jewish background. He is a tiny fish trying to swim with the sharks. The barracudas of the world like the viral Chirac and tricky Blair would eat him alive.
Umm no, Peretz is no tiny fish, he has a big bite, he is just a Khruschev grade politician.

[Muslima]

Muslima, Jews and Arabs are not cousins because Abraham without the covenant was not the same man when he sired Itzhak!

Muslima, Jews are peaceful, ethical, moral and civil living in a democracy surrounded by the Arab tyrannies and their assignees the Palestinian terrorist organizations that are obsessed with killing the innocent men, women and children. There is a world of difference between the 2 groups.

Your reasoning is most riduculous, Toga. You havn't backed it up with anything!


and you still didn't answer the questions,

If, according to you, Jews and Arabs are not cousins, then the only conceivable and logical explanation for that can be if either Ishmael or Itzhak were not sired by Abraham. They both were. The covenant has nothing to do with it, and anyway Ishmael was blessed too.

So you are saying The Torah should be re-interpreted, because of events which are happening millenia later? and anyway your "peace loving" statement can easily be twisted around......but i won't go into that, since it is irrelevant

Can you supply answers to the following please Toga

1. In what way was Abraham different after the covenant

2. How did his difference change his relations with all his relatives?

3. Was Ishmael Abraham's son after the covenant? If you say no here, then you will have to further explain

a) The blessing that God gave Ishmael and his progeny? (A great nation, which was the promise God blessed Ishmael with came to be fulfilled in the Islamic conquests)
b) Why did Abraham vist Ishmael in Mecca , after the covenant? Ishmael and Abraham built the Kaaba in Mecca. That was Abraham's legacy to Ishmael, and we (Arab's and all Muslim's) have still held on to it. No non Muslim is allowed in Mecca and Medina.

What do you others have to say about Toga's reasoning?

[Toga]

Muslima, apparently you don't understand how the Jews are identified. The Jews are not identified by blood, genes, race, color of the skin, DNA, etc.

Abraham became a totally different person when he accepted the G-d' covenant.

Take a look at the map of the devastated, insecure, corrupt, inefficient, tyrannical, backward, oil-rich Arab world! The landmass of the Arab world is twice larger than the USA. Than there is a sliver of of Jewish land representing 0.1% of the Middle Eastern landmass, 20% of which is Arab. Yet, the Arab world is obsessed with that strip of dirt trying to wipe it out.

Yeah, some brothers, cousins!

[Sivan]

Oh come on now. Are you going to tell me that Sivan isn't normally a female name?
Sivan can be either a male or a female name, have you any statistics to show that it is normally a female name ?


Kind of like Mitzna and Lipkin-Shahak did?
No. Peretz is of a different mold.


The only surprise I am expecting from that Stalin lookalike is yet another general strike that will hurt the poor working people in favor of the overpaid workers of government monopolies. But don't expect electoral surprises. He will play the ethnic card, yes, more shamelessly than anyone in Israel ever did before, and it might give him a little more of the Mizrahi vote than the Labor usually get- at the cost of the immigrant vote and the vote of the middle class Ashkenazim.
You are obsessed with Stalin, you must be a new immigrant from the FSU.

The middle class Ashkenazim will vote Shinui or for Sharon's new party , nobody in their right minds will give votes to Bibi anymore.

Russian immigrants will vote for Lieberman the new Meir Kahan .

Lieberman tells Russia he wants to expel Israeli Arabs

By: Lily Galili
Haaretz Daily

Transport Minister Avigdor Lieberman has presented Russian officials with his plan to separate Jews from Arabs, which involves exiling Israeli Arabs deemed disloyal to the state. Lieberman described the Plan for the Separation of Nations as an alternative to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan, which calls for Israel to evacuate from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank.
"It would be right if the Quartet, including Russia, were to support my plan out of a deep understanding that only this way - and not via baseless plans - can it actually be possible to reach an end to the conflict and cancel the reasons leading up to it," Lieberman said after the weekend meeting. The chairman of the rightist National Union Party and an immigrant from the former Soviet Union met Alexander Galkin, Russian President Vladimir Putin's personal representative in the Quartet for Mideast peace, and Russian ambassador to Israel Gennady Tarasov.

The plan is based on the idea of separating the populations and territories of Jews and Arabs, including Israeli Arabs. According to the plan, only those Israeli Arabs who feel a connection with the State of Israel and are completely loyal to it would be allowed to remain.

Sharon yesterday condemned Lieberman's statements on transferring Israeli Arabs to the territories. "We regard [Israeli Arabs] as part of the State of Israel," he said.

Several ministers considered Sharon's statement as getting ready to dismiss Lieberman and Benny Elon, a fellow National Union minister. Sharon warned the cabinet yesterday that he was willing to change the makeup of the coalition to pass the revised disengagement plan.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/433230.html

[Muslima]

[QUOTE=Toga]Muslima, apparently you don't understand how the Jews are identified. The Jews are not identified by blood, genes, race, color of the skin, DNA, etc.

Abraham became a totally different person when he accepted the G-d' covenant.
QUOTE]

You still didn't answer myquestions,

So make me understand how Jews are identified then, and is this your own opinion or backed up by whom/what?

and in doing so please answer the 4 questions i listed,

[SteveK]

It is clear to me we have another non-Israeli right winger in you sir. I am not a supremacist, I am just amused at how you all insult us so freely yet are not real Israelis.
I am male , why did you think I was female ? The name ? Another sign you know nothing about us. What 'artifical mapainik identity' ? It is not faked unlike most of you here who know nothing about the real Israel.
You should have read what came before in this thread before you said " low-life Mizrahim, Sphardim " my mother is Sephardic .

That your mother is Sephardic means that you most probably come from a Torah observant family.

Let's get off "unmasking" everyone else. Are you an atheist "Jew" through your family upbringing?

The whole foundation to your agenda and that of your Pig Guard, is nothing but atheism.

What did your mother say about the expulsion of Jews from their God given land by Jews, these Israeli atheist brazen dogs, leading the Jewish Homeland?

[SteveK]

If any of you scripture quoters are interested recent genetic testing have proven that Jews and Kurds are nearly identical to each other and infinitely closer then either the jews are to the arabs or kurds are to the persians.

It is in the bible that Abraham did come from a Kurdish City.

According to science the closest to a brother the jews have are the kurds, and it is confirmed by Abraham's city of origin.

Back on topic Peretz has good enough english, besides how many times has Chirac adressed the American Public in French?

French is an international language. Hebrew and Greek are not.
It's his mentality as an Israeli atheist brazen dog, and not the language of his bark, that concerns me.

[Cato]

French is an international language. Hebrew and Greek are not.
It's his mentality as an Israeli atheist brazen dog, and not the language of his bark, that concerns me.

In that case Mr.Pig explain why the Italian President talks to Americans in Italian?

The needed english for the job is not perfect english, it is good enough english and Peretz has good enough english.

You are probably only mad because Peretz intends on giving women more important positions in the government.

Peretz is the only man who can heal Israel's problems.

[Sivan]

Peretz to campaign in Russian
Labor chairman wants to reverse his unpopularity among immigrants from former Soviet Union ahead of elections
Attila Somfalvi

As part of his preparations for the upcoming general elections, Labor Party chairman Amir Peretz is taking intensive Russian classes, hoping to address immigrants from the former Soviet Union in their native language in the run-up to the general election.

And the newly elected Labor leader has good reasons to do so: many believe he is not particularly admired by immigrants from the former Soviet Union, whose votes have proved important in deciding the last two elections of 1996 and 1999.

Peretz visited his Russian teacher in the center of the country for two hours on Friday, and he is planning on keeping up the hard work. The ambitious Labor chairman wants to be able to chat with Russian immigrants in their own language within two months, Peretz aides told Ynet.

Recently conducted opinion polls show that many immigrants from the former Soviet Union agree with Peretz’ agenda, yet few are willing to vote for him.

“Peretz’ victory in the primaries slightly improved his popularity among immigrants,” a reporter for Russian affairs told Ynet.

“Other polls show that 70 percent of immigrants do not intend to vote Labor, despite that 54 percent said his election is good,” she said.

Peretz is problematic for many immigrants: “First, Russians are right wing, and he is not. Second there is his socialism. And he is Moroccan, what can we do?”

Sources in the Labor party said their chairman is aware of the stigmas Russian speaking immigrants have about both Labor and Amir Peretz himself. “Russians don’t like the moustache, the resemblance to Stalin and his connection to the Histadrut (Workers’ Union), all of which remind them of what they had back home,” they said.

“A direct appeal to them by Peretz in Russian will prove the importance he attaches to the immigrant community, and will help them judge him for his words and not stereotypes,” they added.

As of next week, Peretz needs to embrace for yet another adventure. As the chairman of the largest opposition party his personal security will be in the hand of Shin Bet bodyguards, a fact his associates say won’t be too straightforward. The idea of having two bodyguards seems to be causing the Labor chairman anxiety.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3171582,00.html

[Toga]

Yeah! He will be taught a few juicy Russian words.

[Womble]

Sivan can be either a male or a female name, have you any statistics to show that it is normally a female name ?
Only personal experience. I am yet to meet a male Sivan.



No. Peretz is of a different mold.
Different- yes, but hardly better.


You are obsessed with Stalin, you must be a new immigrant from the FSU.
Why, because I said that Peretz is a Stalin lookalike?

Do'n't tell me they couldn't pass for twins. (http://www.israellycool.com/stalin.jpg)

But yes, if your obsession with "true Israeliness" of your opponents bugs you that much, I'll "confess" to what everybody else here already knows: I am indeed an ole from the FSU. Hardly new though, ten years plus army service has got to count for something. And let me tell you a little something about that last article you've posted: after I've seen it, I now know for a fact that the Labor is doomed. They WILL lose.

The Labor- and Peretz- is still stuck in the same idiotic patronizing attitude as before. They still view new immigrants as these clueless kids who can be seduced with candy. They think that a few words in Russian, some hollow promises and a shaven off moustache will make us melt and fall in love with the man we have plenty of real, practical reasons to resent.

Get it through your head already: the new Jewish immigrants from the FSU are just as much Israelis as you third generation MAPAI/Avoda voters, they are just as mature and just as intelligent. They actually KNOW this country's history, they have their own, well-based views on matters of politics and economy. You won't buy their votes by cheap PR stunts.

There is nothing in this world that could make me vote for Peretz after every single one of the general strikes he initiated hurt me directly, and not a single one of them benefited me worth an agora. There is no way I would go and vote for a man who talks about economy and welfare as if he doesn't know where money comes from. There is no way I would go and vote for a man willing to ally himself with the co-authors of the Geneva fraud.

Look at Netanyahu's consistent popularity among the new immigrants from the FSU. Why is he so well liked? It's simple: he doesn't do cheap trickery. He doesn't try speaking Russian like Peretz wants to, he doesn't play Russian songs on a piano like Barak did. I don't even recall him ever giving any kind of special "sectoral" promises to the Russian speaking immigrants like Shas does to the religious Mizrahim. Netanyahu talks business. Always. He positions himself not as a sweet and cuddly uncle Bibi, but as an educated man applying for an important job. He rents a page in the leading Israeli newspaper in Russian and lays down his economic programm, or his plan on managing the conflict with the Palestinians. Dry and simple, like an engineering plan, and crushingly effective. We Russian Jews like people with the mindset of an engineer.

What we don't like is being treated as if we were fools- and this, it appears, is the treatment Peretz is about to subject us to.

[ahavat]

I never thought I'd see Finland, Ukraine, Madagascar, and Kuwait in the same sentence...
The Jews have outlived the mightiest empires the world has ever seen. Does anyone know a Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, or Roman today? And yet Jews are still here. :)You may not believe this, but there is an association of Assyrians in the US, which if I am not mistaken are funded by the US Gov't, and they travel throughout the world on US taxpayers money to rebuild their heritage.
How's that for a kick in the fanny?
If I can get their link I will post it to prove my post.

[minusthejihad]

The Jews are not identified by blood, genes, ... DNA, etc.

but, but, but... what about your pure-blooded Jew ideals? what about offspring from a non-Jewish mother who identify themselves as Jews, even their rabbis identify them as Jews? but, but, but, what about them.... don't give us two answers from both sides of your mouth though...

[Cato]

The Romans still are around today, they have become Italians.

Persians are still around today, unfortunately they are occupied by the Islamic Regime which has immitated the worst things of the Arabs.

The Babylonians are the only people who tom mentioned that have infact been eliminated from the world.

[minusthejihad]

Only personal experience. I am yet to meet a male Sivan.


Different- yes, but hardly better.


Why, because I said that Peretz is a Stalin lookalike?

Do'n't tell me they couldn't pass for twins. (http://www.israellycool.com/stalin.jpg)

But yes, if your obsession with "true Israeliness" of your opponents bugs you that much, I'll "confess" to what everybody else here already knows: I am indeed an ole from the FSU. Hardly new though, ten years plus army service has got to count for something. And let me tell you a little something about that last article you've posted: after I've seen it, I now know for a fact that the Labor is doomed. They WILL lose.

The Labor- and Peretz- is still stuck in the same idiotic patronizing attitude as before. They still view new immigrants as these clueless kids who can be seduced with candy. They think that a few words in Russian, some hollow promises and a shaven off moustache will make us melt and fall in love with the man we have plenty of real, practical reasons to resent.

Get it through your head already: the new Jewish immigrants from the FSU are just as much Israelis as you third generation MAPAI/Avoda voters, they are just as mature and just as intelligent. They actually KNOW this country's history, they have their own, well-based views on matters of politics and economy. You won't buy their votes by cheap PR stunts.

There is nothing in this world that could make me vote for Peretz after every single one of the general strikes he initiated hurt me directly, and not a single one of them benefited me worth an agora. There is no way I would go and vote for a man who talks about economy and welfare as if he doesn't know where money comes from. There is no way I would go and vote for a man willing to ally himself with the co-authors of the Geneva fraud.

Look at Netanyahu's consistent popularity among the new immigrants from the FSU. Why is he so well liked? It's simple: he doesn't do cheap trickery. He doesn't try speaking Russian like Peretz wants to, he doesn't play Russian songs on a piano like Barak did. I don't even recall him ever giving any kind of special "sectoral" promises to the Russian speaking immigrants like Shas does to the religious Mizrahim. Netanyahu talks business. Always. He positions himself not as a sweet and cuddly uncle Bibi, but as an educated man applying for an important job. He rents a page in the leading Israeli newspaper in Russian and lays down his economic programm, or his plan on managing the conflict with the Palestinians. Dry and simple, like an engineering plan, and crushingly effective. We Russian Jews like people with the mindset of an engineer.

What we don't like is being treated as if we were fools- and this, it appears, is the treatment Peretz is about to subject us to.

That was great. Represent Evray! Represent.

This was my favorite:
"We Russian Jews like people with the mindset of an engineer." I second that. Emotions are for the bedroom, not for the soapbox.

[Toga]

but, but, but... what about your pure-blooded Jew ideals? what about offspring from a non-Jewish mother who identify themselves as Jews, even their rabbis identify them as Jews? but, but, but, what about them.... don't give us two answers from both sides of your mouth though...

IF THE MOTHER IS NOT JEWISH THEN THE KID IS NOT JEWISH!!!!!!!!

CHRISTIAN MOTHERs DONT PRODUCE THE JEWISH KIDS! NOT POSSIBLE!

[Toga]

Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?

This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.

Although all Jewish movements agree on these general principles, there are occasional disputes as to whether a particular individual is a Jew. Most of these disputes fall into one of two categories.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question.

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis.

About Matrilineal Descent
Many people have asked me why traditional Judaism uses matrilineal descent to determine Jewish status, when in all other things (tribal affiliation, priestly status, royalty, etc.) we use patrilineal descent.

The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew.

In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [ie, the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (ie, a Jew).

On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

[Justcurious]

IF THE MOTHER IS NOT JEWISH THEN THE KID IS NOT JEWISH!!!!!!!!

CHRISTIAN MOTHERs DONT PRODUCE THE JEWISH KIDS! NOT POSSIBLE!

Toga: "Who is a Jew?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."

Are you becoming hesitant about the Jewish identity? :p

[sharonbn]

IF THE MOTHER IS NOT JEWISH THEN THE KID IS NOT JEWISH!!!!!!!!

CHRISTIAN MOTHERs DONT PRODUCE THE JEWISH KIDS! NOT POSSIBLE!
Here's a dilema for ya:
What about a Jewish mother who converted to another faith?
The mother will always remain Jewish (since her mother is Jewish), but what's the status of her children???

[Mediocrates]

It's a no win scenario with some people. You're never good enough and neither were your parents. If you're born Jewish, to these people you can never fall away. But if you convert you can never meet their standards either. Talk to anyone who's honest about it, and they'll tell you there's a streak of elitism about it. I seriously propose that people like this strike the word ger from their vocabulary.

[Toga]

It is useful to get over the "elitism" kkrapp. The Jews have never respected or acquired the pompous British-type class distinction, the French bourgeois superiority or the Russian cult of personality. The class thing in itself is contradictory to the Jewish culture and traditions. Unlike most ethnic groups the economic disparity among the Jews does not make one Jew superior to another. On the other hand, the adulation toward our sages is fully understood. When a human mind demonstrates some exceptional ability and talent it is highly respected. The "elitism" is just a spider in one's head who for one reason or another feels inadequate. One cannot be loved or accepted by everybody. What is important is to follow the book and not react to the stupidity or nuttiness of a few emotionally, mentally unbalanced creatures.

[SteveK]

In that case Mr.Pig explain why the Italian President talks to Americans in Italian?

The needed english for the job is not perfect english, it is good enough english and Peretz has good enough english.

You are probably only mad because Peretz intends on giving women more important positions in the government.

Peretz is the only man who can heal Israel's problems.

Ms. Bitch (Israeli atheist brazen dog):

Amir Peretz would undoubtedly end Israel's problems,--- as a Dr. Kevorkian Jr. assisted suicide.

[minusthejihad]

What is important is to follow the book

And why don't you follow the book? You already stated that you are not religious, yet you expect everyone to follow the book. Looks like a case of "do what I say, not as I do" to me :)

Let's flush this contradiction out before we go back to your last contradiction.

You already contradicted yourself with these quotes:

"The Jews are not identified by blood, genes, ... DNA, etc."

and

"IF THE MOTHER IS NOT JEWISH THEN THE KID IS NOT JEWISH"

[Toga]

Unfortunately, a small mind cannot comprehend the importance of the Jewish soul that can only be passed on by a Jewish mother. If a non-Jew is properly converted and accepted by an Orthodox rabbi then the person is also Jewish.

..and by the way, if you really want to delve deep into it, there is a genetic component there but it is not spoken about or required as the way of life takes precedent over the genetic background. However, certain genes can only be passed on by a mother even if they originated 10000 years ago. When a convert marries Jews and follows the book they acquire the Jewish gene pool in 1 or 2 generations anyway. However, it is not an identifying Jewish factor.

Please note, a Jew who is secular is just as Jewish as any Orthodox rabbi.

[minusthejihad]

Really? What type of Orthodox rabbi?

[minusthejihad]

Unfortunately, a small mind with a big ego can not see how much he contradicts himself.

[Mediocrates]

If a non-Jew is properly converted and accepted by an Orthodox rabbi then the person is also Jewish.

Please note, a Jew who is secular is just as Jewish as any Orthodox rabbi.


No not always. You can be born thus and not be Shomer Shabbos and the Rabbis can't say anything to you or about you. But if you used to be a ger and for whatever reason you decide Shomer Shabbos is not for you they can and will wave you off and say you are not Jewish regardless of who did the conversion ceremony.

[Toga]

Unfortunately, a small mind with a big ego can not see how much he contradicts himself.

Where is the contradiction?

Can you present it, please?

[Toga]

No not always. You can be born thus and not be Shomer Shabbos and the Rabbis can't say anything to you or about you. But if you used to be a ger and for whatever reason you decide Shomer Shabbos is not for you they can and will wave you off and say you are not Jewish regardless of who did the conversion ceremony.

I don't know the conversion details but why are they so important after the fact? A Japanese who was properly converted is Jewish. That is it.

[minusthejihad]

Where is the contradiction?

Can you present it, please?

I've pointed it out several times. I'm not concerned if a small mind like yours can't see it though. Others can.

[SteveK]

Unfortunately, a small mind cannot comprehend the importance of the Jewish soul that can only be passed on by a Jewish mother. If a non-Jew is properly converted and accepted by an Orthodox rabbi then the person is also Jewish.

..and by the way, if you really want to delve deep into it, there is a genetic component there but it is not spoken about or required as the way of life takes precedent over the genetic background. However, certain genes can only be passed on by a mother even if they originated 10000 years ago. When a convert marries Jews and follows the book they acquire the Jewish gene pool in 1 or 2 generations anyway. However, it is not an identifying Jewish factor.

Please note, a Jew who is secular is just as Jewish as any Orthodox rabbi.

Toga,

For God sakes, is your never ending saga of minusthehalachicmarriage to be taken on the scale of our "Patriarch minusthejihad"?

[minusthejihad]

I can't help it if people obsess about me. :)

[Mediocrates]

I don't know the conversion details but why are they so important after the fact? A Japanese who was properly converted is Jewish. That is it.


Because there are actually no hard and fast rules. There's the ceremony and for quite a rew Rabbis there are elaborate lists of other Rabbis who don't quite meet their criteria even among other Orthodox, but more importantly for some at least, is living a completely Frum life. And by completely I mean completely.

And even that wouldn't be so bad if they had an actual checklist of which mitzvoth they were going to critique. But they don't they're constantly shifting the rules and the list. Does your community have a mikvah? How many people use it? Would you like it if I made it an absolute requirement and the people who don't use it, well, we really don't need you....you see? Today we decided you need a second dishwasher and the last people kashered your house didn't do a good job, do it again. You came to Minyan 3 days this week? Fine now come 5 and make it for Maariv as well. And so it goes.

[minusthejihad]

I don't know the conversion details but why are they so important after the fact?

Now you don't know? But but, you were the expert on them a few minutes ago. wha happen

[Toga]

I've pointed it out several times. I'm not concerned if a small mind like yours can't see it though. Others can.

Since the mother of your baby is a Chiristian woman you can only scream to the moon. Even if you scream to the moon a zillion times that your baby is Jewish nobody will hear you. Christian women can produce wonderful kids but not the Jewish kids.

[minusthejihad]

Since the mother of your baby is a Chiristian woman you can only scream to the moon. Even if you scream to the moon a zillion times that your baby is Jewish nobody will hear you. Christian women can produce wonderful kids but not the Jewish kids.

Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? I have no children. My wife is not a Christian, and she's not Jewish. But when I do, both me, my rabbi, my congregation, and my community will consider my kids are Jewish. And you can cry to the moon a zillion times that they are not and no one will hear you! :)

(Personally, I think you should spend your time trying to find some Jewish woman out there with poor eyesight who will be willing to copulate with you! You don't seem to own too much Mojo, by the looks of it.)

[Toga]

Because there are actually no hard and fast rules. There's the ceremony and for quite a rew Rabbis there are elaborate lists of other Rabbis who don't quite meet their criteria even among other Orthodox, but more importantly for some at least, is living a completely Frum life. And by completely I mean completely.

And even that wouldn't be so bad if they had an actual checklist of which mitzvoth they were going to critique. But they don't they're constantly shifting the rules and the list. Does your community have a mikvah? How many people use it? Would you like it if I made it an absolute requirement and the people who don't use it, well, we really don't need you....you see? Today we decided you need a second dishwasher and the last people kashered your house didn't do a good job, do it again. You came to Minyan 3 days this week? Fine now come 5 and make it for Maariv as well. And so it goes.

LOL...that sounds about right. Welcome to the Jewish meshigas! Do you know when you feel really Jewish? When you no longer have the need to be diplomatic and polite with them but scream and yell and express your true feelings without a concern that G-d forbid you can insult another Jew.

[Toga]

Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? I have no children. My wife is not a Christian, and she's not Jewish. But when I do, both me, my rabbi, my congregation, and my community will consider my kids are Jewish. And you can cry to the moon a zillion times that they are not and no one will hear you! :)

(Personally, I think you should spend your time trying to find some Jewish woman out there with poor eyesight who will be willing to copulate with you! You don't seem to own too much Mojo, by the looks of it.)

Hhehe...yeah! Your Reform congregation will accept any delirious Eskimo who woke up in the morning with a notion that he/she was Jewish and, by the way, I have nothing against the Eskimos.

So, where do you celebrate Christmas this year?

[minusthejihad]

So, where do you celebrate Chrismas this year?

In your mouth. And we're all coming!

[Toga]

Who is going to decorate the tree?

[Muslima]

And why don't you follow the book? You already stated that you are not religious, yet you expect everyone to follow the book. Looks like a case of "do what I say, not as I do" to me :)

Let's flush this contradiction out before we go back to your last contradiction.

You already contradicted yourself with these quotes:

"The Jews are not identified by blood, genes, ... DNA, etc."

and

"IF THE MOTHER IS NOT JEWISH THEN THE KID IS NOT JEWISH"

Well said MinustheJihad,

Toga does contradict himself,

for he said to me, that Jews are not identified by blood, genes, etc. and then refused to explain how the covenant with Abraham changed his relationhip with Ishmael.

By the way Toga, i'm still waiting for you to answer those questions in that thread,,instead you choose to run away:)

tch tch, not very good:)

[Toga]

LOL...yes Muslima, I have ran away from you and your intelligent posts.

1. Just because Islam has latched on Judaism we don't owe you an explanation.

2. Abraham prior to his covenant with G-d was indeed a different person. What is so hard to understand?

3. Jews are not identified by genetics, race or blood. The problem you are facing is that the concept of a Jewish soul is too abstract for your perception.

4. I can always tell a vile non-Jewish anti-Semite. They have a need to bring a Jew who they agree with into the discussion.

[minusthejihad]

You both seem pretty confused! Sort out your own messes por favor!

[Muslima]

4. I can always tell a vile non-Jewish anti-Semite. They have a need to bring a Jew who they agree with into the discussion.

Toga , you sound like you are grasping at straws more and more........

I can always tell a bigot who tries to hide his own vile hatred of Islam behind the accusation of anti-semitism. You know nothing about me, and have the gall to accuse me of anti-semitism!

You think you can hide behind the baseless accusation of anti-semitism, just because you cannot answer straight questions that HIGHLIGHT your own bigotry! Do you think it will protect you? NOT.

Go get a life!

[Toga]

You both seem pretty confused! Sort out your own messes por favor!

Am I going to be invited to your Christmas celebration? Cannot wait to look at that beautiful ham on your dinner table.

[minusthejihad]

Am I going to be invited to your Christmas celebration? Cannot wait to look at that beautiful ham on your dinner table.

Edzi Nahoo!

[Truthful Mind]

So, where do you celebrate Chrismas this year?
In your mouth. And we're all coming!
Oh my Lord!!!

How Porn Board-ish! :eek: