Arafat; Rabin

[Sivan]

AN ISRAELI VIEW
Arafat; Rabin
by Yossi Alpher

Yasser Arafat died a year ago; Yitzhak Rabin ten years ago. Both signed the Oslo accords and (with Shimon Peres) received the Nobel Prize for Peace. Both died tragically.

The comparison ends there. The contrasts begin.

Arafat's death seemingly produced little outpouring of grief among Palestinians or his fellow Arab leaders. While he was charming in person, Arafat was mainly corrupt and manipulative, too prone to rely on violence, developed too few strategies for building a viable Palestinian state, and had a disastrous inclination to fall back on lies and paranoid fantasies not seen in any successful Arab leader. A year ago, the impression was that much of the Middle East, not to mention the rest of the world, breathed a sigh of relief when he died.

From the perspective of a year's distance, Arafat deserves historic credit for coalescing a scattered people and giving it a cause. But he could not figure out how to exploit that success. He missed the boat in 1978 when he turned down the first Camp David offer of autonomy, in territories then devoid of settlements. Later, his ten-year stint at state-building was a fiasco; millions are still suffering for his mistakes. Alone among the twentieth century national liberation movements, his failed. He died sordidly and inexplicably, and nobody really seems to care. His death appears to have had nothing to do with whether he succeeded or failed in his life's mission.

Yitzhak Rabin, on the other hand, knew when and how to change strategies. He had his faults and drawbacks, but he pointed us in the right direction, and we are, willy-nilly and with a lot of zigzags, still on that course of defining ourselves as a Jewish and democratic state and letting the Palestinians go their own way. While he adamantly refused to present a detailed vision of a two state solution, Rabin nevertheless made sure everyone knew in what direction he was heading. In person he was diffident, ill at ease, not particularly communicative, even (as one of his ministers once described him to me) "autistic". But he was genuine, authentic and straightforward. His assassination ten years ago left most Israelis and others worldwide in shock and heartache; many continue to exhibit their strong feelings for him to this day, often to the extent (particularly on the political left) of distorting his legacy. Even most of those who, for political and ideological reasons, don't miss him, nevertheless recognize the huge setback to Israeli sovereign state-building that his murder constituted.

Rabin and Arafat first met in that excruciating handshake on the White House lawn on September 13, 1993. Rabin was not a dissembler, and everything about his body language told you he knew exactly whom he was dealing with. I remember at the time asking another retired IDF general, a comrade-in-arms of Rabin, whether he had watched that ceremony. "I couldn't," he replied. "I knew what Yitzhak was going through and couldn't bear to see it."

Had he lived, I doubt very much that Rabin would or could have made a genuine peace with Arafat. But that is merely informed speculation, based partly on the limitations of Rabin's vision in his day, but mostly on Arafat's performance in the ensuing years until his death. Still, Rabin's assassin succeeded in causing real damage to the cause of peace and coexistence.

Arafat's successor, Mahmoud Abbas, is a good man engaged in a dangerous experiment with Hamas, seemingly without the leadership qualities needed to tame even violent supporters within his own movement, Fateh. He confronts an Israeli leader, Ariel Sharon, who subscribes to Rabin's strategy of separation but not to his formula for a viable relationship with the Palestinians. And while Rabin and Arafat had the benefit of President Bill Clinton's stewardship and commitment, we now have President George W. Bush, mired knee-deep in a disastrous Iraqi adventure and barely able (or ready) to lend us the services of Secretary of State Rice for a day every few months.

These days, after the disappointments of Camp David II and the violence of intifada II, we are almost certainly farther from a peaceful end to the conflict than we were ten years ago, when Rabin was assassinated. But, thanks to disengagement and Abu Mazen, we are a little closer than we were a year ago, when Arafat died. Hopefully we can all, Israelis and Palestinians, learn something from both the ongoing nostalgia for Rabin as well as the lack of nostalgia for Arafat.- Published 14/11/2005 © bitterlemons.org

[KettleWhistle]

Arafat and Rabin--the rational view

The two, indeed, deserve to be remembered together, as both did equal amount of damage to the Jewish people and the Jewish state. Arafat made a career out of getting multitudes of unrelated people take on a ficticious indenity of "Palestinians" and fight for Israel's elimination. Has there been no Arafat, Israel would exist in peace, and quite likely within the historical borders of the Jewish Israel, including the territory that's the core of Jewish identity--the so-called West Bank. Similarly, Rabin has made his career by killing Jews of Altalena (detailed description of that event can be found here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Altalena.html) He was also active in collaborating with British in their persecution of Jews in the pre-Israel Yeshuv, at the time when the British were preventing Jews from running to Israel in order to escape the Nazis.

Of course, the pinnacle of Rabin's career were the Oslo accords when he partnered with Arafat. In this action, he undermined the very nature of Zionism--the political movement for Jewish national independence. As Arafat's business partner, he has brought him Israel, armed him and his terrorist factions, and did all he could to help him drive Jews from their native land. The "symbolic" handshake between Rabin and Arafat was no move of courage, as the lieberal media likes to present it. It was a handshake that sealed the business deal among two business partners, as they backstubbed the Jewish independence in the land of Israel.

[Sivan]

Your good dude I give you that, only you can't fool me . Full of Revisionist Zionism and the revised history of your Irgun Zvai Leumi past. I guess you will be voting for Bibi then ? Good luck with that.

The problem you people have always had, past and present, is that you are a very tiny minority . Recently you have been boosted by Religious Zionism and by many immigrants from the FSU that follow your creed of hate. However the Israeli public is not easily fooled as you are about to see in March. We wanted early elections and we got it . You know why ? So that what the Israeli public witnessed on it's TV screens this summer would still be fresh in their minds.
The days of Rabin, Peres and Sharon are over . It's time for the young guard to take over, and unlike them you will get no sympathy from us because we grew up and suffered the mistakes you and yours did to us.

[Cato]

KettleWhistle pro-terrorist anti-democracy <edited by moderator> like you don't have any credibility here.

[KettleWhistle]

Your good dude I give you that, only you can't fool me . Full of Revisionist Zionism and the revised history of your Irgun Zvai Leumi past. I guess you will be voting for Bibi then ? Good luck with that.

The problem you people have always had, past and present, is that you are a very tiny minority . Recently you have been boosted by Religious Zionism and by many immigrants from the FSU that follow your creed of hate. However the Israeli public is not easily fooled as you are about to see in March. We wanted early elections and we got it . You know why ? So that what the Israeli public witnessed on it's TV screens this summer would still be fresh in their minds.
The days of Rabin, Peres and Sharon are over . It's time for the young guard to take over, and unlike them you will get no sympathy from us because we grew up and suffered the mistakes you and yours did to us.

Hate? You gotta be kidding us. People like me simply love our homeland, and our people. But the violent days of Altalena massacres, and leftist government with all their corruption, political suppression, and protectsia are getting close to their dawn.

[KettleWhistle]

KettleWhistle pro-terrorist anti-democracy <edited by moderator> like you don't have any credibility here.

LOL. Coming from someone who hates Arabs, and loves criminals and traitors like Rabin, your statement is nothing short of being hillarious.

[Mediocrates]

Yet it's hard to avoid the zero progress from 1993 to 2000 either, is it. Rabin may have had all sorts of intentions and while his tenure ended only 2 years after Oslo, it's hard to skip over the next 6 years of virtually no change. One can imagine that w/o the jihadtifada Israel would be inside a bell jar in suspended animation forever and ever.

[Cato]

LOL. Coming from someone who hates Arabs, and loves criminals and traitors like Rabin, your statement is nothing short of being hillarious.

Rabin was among Israel's greatest heros. He certainly gave much more to Israel then you. Had he lived he would have convinced the Palestinians to overthrow Arafat and create a democracy in his place to coexist with Israel and we would be having tea instead of bullets with them.

Unfotunately a terrorist killed Rabin the democratically elected, and nationally supported Prime Minister, and pro-terrorist anti-democratic scum like yourself support terrorism so support his murderer who will spend the rest of his life in prison.

I don't hate Arabs, I hate the violent and barbaric culture of hate which they created, and hate the laws and barbaric rules of their countries. I can think of no decent person who would not agree with that, when I say I hate the way Saudi Arabia executes women for adultry, how the IRI persecutes the vast majority of Iranians (Persians and Kurds) for not being radical Islamists, when I say I hate the Syria for miseducating it's people to encourage war with all jews and enslavement of the christians, when I say I hate the way Egypt's education system teaches kids to hate jews, and when I criticize other Arab Crimes I am directing my hatred and criticisim towards the people on top and their supporters not all Arabs.

Try to respond to the merits of my argument, which is that you are pro-terrorist and so have no credibility here.

[Mediocrates]

Rabin was among Israel's greatest heros. He certainly gave much more to Israel then you. Had he lived he would have convinced the Palestinians to overthrow Arafat and create a democracy in his place to coexist with Israel and we would be having tea instead of bullets with them.

Let's agree that's a completely unfounded wish.

[KettleWhistle]

Rabin was among Israel's greatest heros. He certainly gave much more to Israel then you. Had he lived he would have convinced the Palestinians to overthrow Arafat and create a democracy in his place to coexist with Israel and we would be having tea instead of bullets with them.

Unfotunately a terrorist killed Rabin the democratically elected, and nationally supported Prime Minister, and pro-terrorist anti-democratic scum like yourself support terrorism so support his murderer who will spend the rest of his life in prison.

I don't hate Arabs, I hate the violent and barbaric culture of hate which they created, and hate the laws and barbaric rules of their countries. I can think of no decent person who would not agree with that, when I say I hate the way Saudi Arabia executes women for adultry, how the IRI persecutes the vast majority of Iranians (Persians and Kurds) for not being radical Islamists, when I say I hate the Syria for miseducating it's people to encourage war with all jews and enslavement of the christians, when I say I hate the way Egypt's education system teaches kids to hate jews, and when I criticize other Arab Crimes I am directing my hatred and criticisim towards the people on top and their supporters not all Arabs.

Try to respond to the merits of my argument, which is that you are pro-terrorist and so have no credibility here.
Your argument is a non-argument, but a party line rhetoric. Much like your pathetic attack on a true Jewish hero Zeev Zhabotinsky.

Rabin was not killed by a terrorist. He was killed by a concerned citizen with courage to do what needed to be done to rid Israel of a traitor in charge of the country. He has done his citizen's duty of protecting the state from destruction. It took Hitler 12 years to institute the Holocaust. I can only thank Igal Amir for taking out Rabin after his third year before he was able to do the same.

[SteveK]

[...]
The days of Rabin, Peres and Sharon are over . It's time for the young guard to take over,...

Hashomair Hachazeer?

[Sivan]

Ha’Shomer HaTzair

http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/welcome.htm?page=http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/yaari/welcome.htm?page=http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/yaari/hh_exhib.htm

[SteveK]

Ha’Shomer HaTzair

http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/welcome.htm?page=http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/yaari/welcome.htm?page=http://www.givathaviva.org.il/english/yaari/hh_exhib.htm



השומר החזיר

[Sivan]

SteveK you can call us pigs as much as you like all you are doing is showing the true face of Religious Zionism.
Remember the insults and abuse we took from you during the disengagement ?
As we stone faced and silent faced you then so I do now .

[Mediocrates]

I'm still left wondering what the State of Israel has planned for them though.

[Cato]

Your argument is a non-argument, but a party line rhetoric. Much like your pathetic attack on a true Jewish hero Zeev Zhabotinsky.

Rabin was not killed by a terrorist. He was killed by a concerned citizen with courage to do what needed to be done to rid Israel of a traitor in charge of the country. He has done his citizen's duty of protecting the state from destruction. It took Hitler 12 years to institute the Holocaust. I can only thank Igal Amir for taking out Rabin after his third year before he was able to do the same.

Once again an apologist for terrorism member of the Kahanists has replaced history with Kahanist Teachings.

I can tell you are not Israeli because Israelis get educated and know their history, and know that Jabotinsky was a violent nut job that most jews didn't like at the time.

[SteveK]

SteveK you can call us pigs as much as you like all you are doing is showing the true face of Religious Zionism.
Remember the insults and abuse we took from you during the disengagement ?
As we stone faced and silent faced you then so I do now .

You have no Jewish face. What else can be seen on you Pig Guards?

You Israeli atheist brazen dogs are doing nothing more than appeasing and surrendering to Arab terrorism and world anti-semites.

When you stopped embracing your own 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage, and stopped building and fighting for a Jewish Homeland..... come to think of it, when did your Pig Guard ever embrace 3,500+ years of Jewish heritage and build and fight for a Jewish Homeland?

You got your international claim ticket to the Land of Israel from these Torah observant communities who passed the Jewish heritage through 2,000 years of bitter exile.

From your atheist mud, and slop, that you wallow in, and eat, and in which you are trying to bury the Israeli Nation, the Jewish Homeland, you are nothing more than just an occupier of Arab land, a murderer who inherited, and a war criminal. You "took the land by the sword, and you hold it by the sword with no God in heaven to help you".

Huh, Porky?

[Sivan]

I'm still left wondering what the State of Israel has planned for them though.
Answer to be found @ this link :
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132053877374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SteveK]

Answer to be found @ this link :
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132053877374&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Amir Peretz can start learning English through an update to the tried and proven American kids' primer course:

"See Israeli atheist brazen dog."

"See Israeli atheist brazen dog run from Arab murderers."

[Cato]

Amir Peretz can start learning English through an update to the tried and proven American kids' primer course:

"See Israeli atheist brazen dog."

"See Israeli atheist brazen dog run from Arab murderers."

You sir have no jewish face.

[SteveK]

You sir have no jewish face.

Oh, now you Israeli atheist <edited by moderator> are getting yourselves all prissied up to prance around like a champion pedigree with the new <edited by moderator>

<edited by moderator>

[Cato]

Oh, now you Israeli atheist <edited by moderator> are getting yourselves all prissied up to prance around like a champion pedigree with the new <edited by moderator>

<edited by moderator>

You are as useful to Israel as a <edited by moderator>

You are a <edited by moderator>

You would fit in perfectly <edited by moderator> you declare anyone who does not hold extremist fundamentalist views is an athiest.

Fortunately almost no Israelis think like you, and when Peretz Wins I will enjoy <edited by moderator>

[SteveK]

You are as useful to Israel as a <edited by moderator>

You are a <edited by moderator>

You would fit in perfectly <edited by moderator> you declare anyone who does not hold extremist fundamentalist views is an athiest.

Fortunately almost no Israelis think like you, and when Peretz Wins I will enjoy <edited by moderator>

Now, look at that <edited by moderator>

I removed <edited by moderator>

You Israeli <edited by moderator>

[redcake]

Cato - On the contrary, it was Rabin who validated Arafat in the eyes of the Palestinian people. Check your history. Arafat had been marginalized, and controversial even amongst his own people untill Oslo came around. It was Rabin brought him back from exile. What Rabin was alive to see, was just how little control or sway he had over the PLO constituates. If Rabin really had the respect to do what you say, and deliver peace, then why did he need Arafat or any Arab figurehead at all?

[Cato]

Cato - On the contrary, it was Rabin who validated Arafat in the eyes of the Palestinian people. Check your history. Arafat had been marginalized, and controversial even amongst his own people untill Oslo came around. It was Rabin brought him back from exile. What Rabin was alive to see, was just how little control or sway he had over the PLO constituates. If Rabin really had the respect to do what you say, and deliver peace, then why did he need Arafat or any Arab figurehead at all?

Palestinian Politics have three faces.

The first one is the propaganda they give to the world.

The second is internal struggle and chaotic deals made in the back of the room.

The third is the personal rivalries, honor, curruption, political intrigue, petty warring in the field, Strongest Warlord rules, and religion.

If there is no figure head keeping some sense of balance and order everything falls apart completely, making peace impossible, to make peace with all three big aspects of Palestinian Politics it has to be through a figurehead recognized as the leader of the Palestinians, unfortunately the only one available was Arafat, there was nobody else to negotiate with. Besides Arafat did have the popularity, sway over the massess and overhwhelming public support from the Palestinians. Your saying that he was dead to the people in Gaza and the West Bank is at best an innacurate misconception. Arafat was not marginalized politically in any way,his ability to attack Israel and jews around the world was dramatically cut off by his being exilled from the Palestinians, but to the Palestinians he was still the symbol of all of their nationalist aspirations and dreams. If you honestly believe he was a marginal figure that Rabin Ressurected from the dead come over to Israel and talk to the Palestinians themselves about how they felt about him before the start of Oslo. At the time the Palestinians had no more knowledge of Arafat's Curruption and intentions then the Israelis did, and so supported him 200%.

Yitzakh Rabin had complete credibility with the Palestinians, they trusted him, and had he lived he would have been able to undo Arafat's political power. Unfortunately before the world got to see how currupt, violent and extremist Arafat still was Rabin was murdered by a Terrorist who had hopped to destroy the peace process.

With the death of Rabin there was no Israeli the Palestinians would believe a word he or she said, and so there was no counter balance to Arafats Power other then petty warlords who were and still are as extremist violent and anti-semitic as he was.

[Cato]

Now, look at that <edited by moderator>

I removed <edited by moderator>

You Israeli <edited by moderator>

<edited by moderator>

[redcake]

With the death of Rabin there was no Israeli the Palestinians would believe a word he or she said, and so there was no counter balance to Arafats Power other then petty warlords who were and still are as extremist violent and anti-semitic as he was.


Okay this is a farce. This would mean that A) Arafat was a trusted leader while in Tunesia, or that the Palestinians had even found unity (through song, rhetoric, flags,etc. ) prior to the building of Oslo. B) That Rabin was favored by Palestinians for other reasons aside from the fact that he was the first Israeli in charge who provided them with an audience and conceeded to their whims. They didn't provide Rabin with a cease fire or any form of peace. C) That Arafat wasn't a petty warlord himself, and that Rabin, and the rest of the world with a brain were unaware of this going in and learned of his criminal past only in retrospect.

[Cato]

Arafat was a trusted leader, and he was infact recognized as the leader of the Palestinians, and the Palestinians did trust Rabin because he granted them a roadmap to independence.

Had Rabin lived he would have been a first rate opponent to Arafat the second Arafat stepped out of line because Palestinians would have been willing to hear him, unfortunately because a terrorist bastard killed him Arafat was completely unchecked.

Rabin had Israel on the road to a lasting peace, he was popular enough with Palestinians to have been able to counter Arafat's unchecked power, and he had a plan for the future to deal with terrorism and get peace.

Yes it is true that Arafat was a petty warlord himself, but he was a petty warlord that at least 99% of Palestinians supported.

The idea that he was a controversal figure amongst the Palestinians before Oslo is a myth with little if any basis in reality. Arafat was an uncontreversal figure amongst the Palestinians before Oslo. What actually happened was after Oslo he imposed himself on them like a conquering dictator, didn't grant them freedom, turned all education and media towards anti-semitism first doing their job second, and embezzelled the Humanitarian Aide money giving it to himself, his terrorists, Hamas, and his family, and THAT made him controversal AFTER Oslo.

[Mediocrates]

Waging war on Jordan, inventing airline hijacking, moving to Lebanon to help start a civil war was something to take note of.

[Cato]

Waging war on Jordan, inventing airline hijacking, moving to Lebanon to help start a civil war was something to take note of.

No it was completely irrelevant.

Yes it was known to non-Palestinians Arafat was pure evil, but he was infact the only one with enough authority over the Palestinians to sign a peace treaty that was worth the paper it was written on.

To make matters great though Rabin was and still is highly respected in the Arab Camp, and someone they trusted and were perfectly willing to listen to.

Had Rabin lived Arafat would have been replaced by a democracy, wether you are pro-terrorist or pro-Israeli you should know that Rabin would have been able to counter balance Arafat's Power had he rejected Camp David.

The reason is the Palestinians would have believed what he said, Bill Clinton and Barak are both hated on the Palestinian Side, so the Palestinians dismiss everythig they say and anyone who says something corroborating their statements.

Killing Rabin did a perfect job at setting back the peace process 40 years and costing the deaths of over a thousand jews in an intifada the Palestinians Would not have listened to Arafat in launching had he survived.

You are also forgetting this. Rabin was also loved in Europe, America, and Japan and had their full political backing. Had Rabin lived he would have been able to get help from them in stopping Arafat's anti-semitism program as he started it, which would also have saved countless jewish lives.

[redcake]

The idea that he was a controversal figure amongst the Palestinians before Oslo is a myth with little if any basis in reality. Arafat was an uncontreversal figure amongst the Palestinians before Oslo. What actually happened was after Oslo he imposed himself on them like a conquering dictator, didn't grant them freedom, turned all education and media towards anti-semitism first doing their job second, and embezzelled the Humanitarian Aide money giving it to himself, his terrorists, Hamas, and his family, and THAT made him controversal AFTER Oslo.

Your skirt's showing. The text books teaching anti-semitism are as old as the PLFO, if not older, and were taught in the Palestinian camps before the Six Day War. You can't blame Arafat for this. Arafat also mismanaged the Palestinian finances long before Oslo. Ever hear of his little red book? This wasn't an Oslo creation. The fact is, Arafat had lost support after failures in Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon led to his retreat. The Palestinian population didn't soar into the millions untill after Oslo, when he finally accomplished something. Otherwise, the attitude had always been that he was an outsider, and a snake, but if he could get away with something in their favor, they'd take it, and embrace him for that moment. Have you ever talked to a real Palestinian?

Rabin was completely inaffectual WHILE he was alive. He didn't sway public opinion, and if anything was percieved as merely doing a percentage of the expected demands put on big bad Israel. Israel recieved nothing in return for his concensions. The one thing his death prevented was the ability to return to the table, with the face of someone who gave them what they wanted and say "we told you so".... but then the error will always be that Arafat was involved at all. Rabin's legacy isn't a great one.