How could Germany genocide the Jews?

[Ephraim]

(Not knowing a better section to put this in....)

I have always wondered how a civilized country like 20th Century Germany could do what they did in WW2 with regard to Jewish near-genocide.

Something came to me the other day as I was watching the history channel.

I believe that the major reason for the near genocide of the Jew in WW2 was WW1.

What WW1 did was to destroy the humanity of a whole generation of Germans. Death became natural and expected on a scale unknown in human history. The rules had vanished. Gas, massive artillery, machine guns, death charges and genocide on the battlefield was what millions of Germans had gone through for 4 years. They had very little humanity left in them after the war. They had seen hell on earth to a greater degree than any other vet in history...before or since.

Unlike the vets of the victorious major powers, the Germans felt betrayed by an internal enemy. As most vets were patriotic Germans, they did not associate the Kaiser with that betrayal. The third column; the enemy within, was the Communist. Just as the Communist brought down Russia, it was trying to bring down Germany. The Communists ruled Russia; would they rule Germany?

The Communists became the main enemy of a patriotic Germany. They did what the French, Brits, Russians and Americans could not do. They brought defeat to the German Reich.

As Jews were a major and highly visible component of German Communism they became more than what your average European Jew had been for a thousand years in Europe.

Prior to WW1, the Euro Jews were just a people to push around; sometimes embraced, often abused, but most often, ignored.

Now they became the sword in the heart of Germany through their new manifestation as Communists. They became the force that needed to be exterminated rather than pushed aside. You cannot push away a terrible enemy; you must crush it or die trying.

The Nazis pointed to the Jew and Communist in the same breath. That was the major enemy of Germany; and the enemy within that had brought defeat to Germany. If a Jews was not a communist, he was a budding communist.

The demonization of the average "long-nosed-swarthy-raping German women-Jew" was thrown in, but that was no different than propaganda that existed throughout European history. The difference in the 1920's-30's was that the Jews were seen as an international political force (communism) that was out to conquer the world...Russia first and then Germany.

Germany was able to gas millions of Jews because the Germans believed that Judaism had transformed itself into something more than a religion and cultural; and because there was very little humanity left in that particular generation of Germans.

You add modern technology, a heavy military culture, and total domination of Europe to that foundation and you have the Holocaust.

You can see some parallels in Islam today.

[Cato]

Germany had two faces, like modern Turkey in many ways does.

One face was it's modern highly civilized secular one, and the other was the anti-semitic racist one.

When Hitler came to power in 1933 he despite his earlier campaigning was still unable to do the final sollution so instead he took controll of the media and education, and educating all young Germans to hate the jews and want to kill jews and all associated with them.

10 years of nonstop anti-semitic propaganda does a lot to create anti-semitism.

[Ferdie]

I believe the Nazis (not German) hatred for Jews stems from Hitler's belief that Germany lost WW1 as the Jewish community did not take and active role to assist the nation. He felt that they (jews) were more involved in business and money making ventures for themselves than national interest.
This aspects was a major part of his orations in the pubs during the early 30s.

[Mil]

The main reason why Germany slaughtered Jews was because THEY COULD. One has to live or have lived in Europe to understand this.

[Mira]

(Not knowing a better section to put this in....)

I have always wondered how a civilized country like 20th Century Germany could do what they did in WW2 with regard to Jewish near-genocide.

Something came to me the other day as I was watching the history channel.

I believe that the major reason for the near genocide of the Jew in WW2 was WW1.

What WW1 did was to destroy the humanity of a whole generation of Germans. Death became natural and expected on a scale unknown in human history. The rules had vanished. Gas, massive artillery, machine guns, death charges and genocide on the battlefield was what millions of Germans had gone through for 4 years. They had very little humanity left in them after the war. They had seen hell on earth to a greater degree than any other vet in history...before or since.

Unlike the vets of the victorious major powers, the Germans felt betrayed by an internal enemy. As most vets were patriotic Germans, they did not associate the Kaiser with that betrayal. The third column; the enemy within, was the Communist. Just as the Communist brought down Russia, it was trying to bring down Germany. The Communists ruled Russia; would they rule Germany?

The Communists became the main enemy of a patriotic Germany. They did what the French, Brits, Russians and Americans could not do. They brought defeat to the German Reich.

As Jews were a major and highly visible component of German Communism they became more than what your average European Jew had been for a thousand years in Europe.

Prior to WW1, the Euro Jews were just a people to push around; sometimes embraced, often abused, but most often, ignored.

Now they became the sword in the heart of Germany through their new manifestation as Communists. They became the force that needed to be exterminated rather than pushed aside. You cannot push away a terrible enemy; you must crush it or die trying.

The Nazis pointed to the Jew and Communist in the same breath. That was the major enemy of Germany; and the enemy within that had brought defeat to Germany. If a Jews was not a communist, he was a budding communist.

The demonization of the average "long-nosed-swarthy-raping German women-Jew" was thrown in, but that was no different than propaganda that existed throughout European history. The difference in the 1920's-30's was that the Jews were seen as an international political force (communism) that was out to conquer the world...Russia first and then Germany.

Germany was able to gas millions of Jews because the Germans believed that Judaism had transformed itself into something more than a religion and cultural; and because there was very little humanity left in that particular generation of Germans.

You add modern technology, a heavy military culture, and total domination of Europe to that foundation and you have the Holocaust.

You can see some parallels in Islam today.

It may not make sense to you, but there is a difference between communism and liberalism. Traditional economic systems were changing in Europe and Hitler believed that the Jews used liberalism to advance themselves at the expense of others.

[Roland]

Traditional economic systems were changing in Europe and Hitler believed that the Jews used liberalism to advance themselves at the expense of others.
WWI did a lot of damage, very good point.
Also succeeding the age of feudalistic monarchies, the young inexperienced democracy in Germany was no match for nationalism and idealism of that time.
Modernity didn't encourage people to discuss as much as we postmodern people do today, they were easily guidable, propaganda was effective.
BTW History keeps repeating itself - traditional economic systems are changing again. Meanwhile the age of ideologies is over, communism is gone and nationalism gives way to supranational structures like the EU - hopefully this will prevent another WW.

[Toga]

There is only one explanation: The German hatred toward the Jews. That is all. The rest is irrelevant. Why do the Euros hate the Jews? Why do they hate us so much? Well..they do. Can we always get an answer? Is there always an explanation for the serial murderers? Harldly!

[Toga]

It may not make sense to you, but there is a difference between communism and liberalism. Traditional economic systems were changing in Europe and Hitler believed that the Jews used liberalism to advance themselves at the expense of others.

This is nonsense! Weird! Yeah, try to get into the Hitler''s head. Hitler did not just appear in a vaccuum. Hitler had the backing in many European corners including Finland, Croatia, the Vatican, etc. Prior to Hitler the Euros were killing the Jews in mob violence or expelling them from one country to another. Hitler had a huge following in Germany, Poland, Austria, France, Holland, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania, Greece, etc. while the Brits knowing of extermination were looking away.

People try to overanalyze it. They Euros have always hated the Jews and still do.

Well..they have achieved what they wanted. The Jews are amost gone in Europe and instead they have the Turks, Arabs, Pakistanis, North Africans, etc.

Hopefully, they will treat them better than they have treated the Jews.

[Zlatorog]

The term genocide was coined by a Polish lawyer, a Jew, by the name of Raphael Lemkin.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/freeworld1945.htm

The Holocaust was a series of genocides, like the one perpetrated by the Bolgarians in Macedonia (not a near one, but a complete one). Even though Lemkin mentioned Slovenes as victims of this genocide, we prefer ethnocide.

In Slovenia all of the three occupying forces (four in fact) wanted to include the occupied territories into their social order.

The Germans

The plan was to annex us formally to Germany as quickly as possible and thus become the southern border of the German Reich. This would have meant a complete elimination of Slovenians as the nation (ethnocide). The plan for the elimination of Slovenian nation was based on three basic elements: mass deportations of the Slovenians, the settlement of Germans, and complete assimilation of people who stayed in their homes because they could meet the required political and racial criteria. Our Germans were kicked out by the fascists and mostly live in Tyrol where they were originaly from, because they fled before they could have been kicked out.

After the annexation of the Italian occupational zone to Italy, which was based on the King’s decree dating from May 3, 1941, so called Province of Ljubljana became one of the Italian provinces. Political and racial criteria were less ruthless than in German occupational zone, but practical methods didn’t differentiate much. Unfortunately this was going on in the south since the London Treaty from 1915. However, we fought on both sides during WW1 AND THERE WERE ONE MILLION DEAD ONLY AT THE ISONZO FRONT.

We knew no communism, neither did the rest of South East Europe, and many other countries as well.

The Hungarians officially annexed their occupational zone. They treated local population as being Vends, a special nation with its own language, which adopted Hungarian culture during the long centuries of living together. According to them, the only missing element for complete assimilation was the replacement of the “Vend language” with the Hungarian. Former Yugoslav officials and teachers, colonists and other immigrants, who moved to that region between the two Wars were confined in the camp Sárvár. The forced magyarisation in that region took a toll of many civilian lifes, but noone's yet discovered why the Hungarians called us Vends, the Germans Windisch and the Catholic Encyclopedia Veneti (surprisingly, in a rather lenghty way). In the Jewish Encyclopedia, whoever reads it carefuly (searching Carinthia or the Habsburgs) can evidently see how the Habsburgs came to power and how as soon as our dukes were deposed there, the Jews lost real estate and were pogromed and when they returned they were often removed for 'security reasons' and most of Austria became Judenrein.

The reason why I am mentioning this is because Bavaria and Austria are omitting the existance of Karantania, the Catholic Encyclopedia misteriousely mentioned us as residents of Noricum and the idea that Vindobona (Vienna) was named by the Romans who arrived there and foud good wine there?????? is probably false. We never really lived there, so that's not really important, but Austria is full of places that has names that make no sense, because the Nazis just Germanised them (by an official law before Anschluss) and it would make perfect sense to have bilingual names there that actually mean something. The fight for such signes is of course only in those places where our minority is still present.

The coronation stone was hidden behind the door of some museum and now that we've decided to have it on 2 cents Euro coin, that was not meant to be in circulation, Haider took the stone to his office and is fantasizing about 'common history'. No such thing, until 1414 it was a Slovenian coronation, after that we were forced into serfdom Emunah already mentioned here, posted on the 4th of July.

Nazism

is extreme stupidity. First of all they practiced some sort of witchcraft, the Aryan theories are completely false and Hitler saw Judenrein Habsburgs and the sentiments I described in The Separation Thread. He copied that and some Mussolini's ideas.

Fascism

The Italians have just began discovering what they did to us www.gonarsmemorial.org , after 60 years, 59 of these more to go! Our entire catholic church (I'm pagan btw, which Muslims are not) fought against them, the Association of priests of St. Paul for example were some sort of unique resistance organisation in Europe. Other priests fought side by side with the Jewish brigade, and I should also mention the Jews who were SOE agents, the parachuters from Palestine and some Jewish lady that led the BBC radio since 1941. After 1954 Yugoslavia was a weirdocracy and our Jews are the last Yugoslavs, with no such ideology, but nevertheless

http://www.bejahad.org/

The Brits

were chased by the Chetniks on the ground but have a few who still wear their medals. When fascism was over in Libya they chose some sort of punitive four hour pogroms there. They have a hero who's worked for the Red Cross and has saved 8000 Slovenes, but he'll never be famous because they are aware that the rest were killed with their knowledge (at least). They were murdered with the same method as Srebrenica victims, which was as well genocide, because every man in that region was targeted.

After the fourth crusade when people from France and Venice destoyed our cities (again, the most known is The Sack of Zara), the Vatican sort of did protect us.

[Mediocrates]

Reading Christopher Browning's “Ordinary Men” is a good place to start. So is, I guess Arendt's "Banality of Evil" and "Eichmann in Jerusalem". So is Jan Gross's "Neighbors". Browning asserts that antisemitism became the main ideological driver in Germanic society and this allowed them to willingly participate, cries that they 'did not know' notwithstanding. It's important I think to note that 'Shoah' took on different dimensions. We're all familiar with the trains and the camps and the industrialized murder machines but we tend to forget the old style progroms that went on as well. Jews were just as likely to be rounded up by their own neighbors and murdered right then and there. Bosnians will find this familiar.

[ygalg1]

I believe the Nazis (not German) hatred for Jews stems from Hitler's belief that Germany lost WW1 as the Jewish community did not take and active role to assist the nation. He felt that they (jews) were more involved in business and money making ventures for themselves than national interest.
This aspects was a major part of his orations in the pubs during the early 30s.
Hitler conclusion quite similar to Muhammads when Jews were not to assist Muhammad in his fighting. well at least Jews were not in his way and yet he butchered them anyway for their indifference

[ygalg1]

It may not make sense to you, but there is a difference between communism and liberalism. Traditional economic systems were changing in Europe and Hitler believed that the Jews used liberalism to advance themselves at the expense of others.
I don't know how much of it was true then… but today unfortunate happening

There are Jews in high windows do misuse the democratic laws system to promote their own selfish goals we can witness even in political circle and other areas

Also there are righteous Jews who strive to eliminate that occurrent there was suggestion to valid the law against corruption



I believe some Jews saying themselves that in past they paid over something they have not committed
Maybe now by doing so they would not pay for the crime already been paid
make sense?

[Muslima]

Hitler conclusion quite similar to Muhammads when Jews were not to assist Muhammad in his fighting. well at least Jews were not in his way and yet he butchered them anyway for their indifference

This is a lie. The truth is very well documented, if you bother to find out.

The Prophet's relations with the ahl kitaab (including Jews) are legendary.

You're talking about the fifth column who were his enemy not because they were Jewish but because they saw him as a threat to their power and prestige. They broke every peace treaty, used every dirty trick to undermine his rule. They failed miserably.
The fifth column included Pagan's, Polytheist's, Jews Christians and others, and they were a despicable lot, who fought low and dirty. Quite frankly The Prophet was too kind to them. Even the Jewish tribes amongst the fifth column did not represent the majority of Jews anyway.

The earliest converts to Islam were the Jews. One of the Prophet's wives was a Jewess (Safiyya) and his personal physician when he was head of state and the most powerful man in the Peninsula, was a practicing Jew, and the Prophet often said he trusted him with his life. Why would he trust a Jew with his life, if he was out to kill the rest of his tribe?

How dare you compare Hitler to the Prophet you moron. It's blasphemy.

[Gilgamesh]

How dare you compare Hitler to the Prophet you moron. It's blasphemy.Easy! We ain't blood lusting Islamist like you. We don't believe Muhamad ever existed. If he was, I don't believe in his mission or his faith. I think Muhammad had he existed was a power hungry false prophet a lier, who invented the whole thing up, cause he was only looking for his own personal gain.

[Ephraim]

It may not make sense to you, but there is a difference between communism and liberalism. Traditional economic systems were changing in Europe and Hitler believed that the Jews used liberalism to advance themselves at the expense of others.

Yes, but he feared Communism; which is the tip of the spear of liberalism. Communism brings on a fast death to a nation; liberalism brings on a slow death; but the death is still there.

Many of you say the Germans could do the deed because they were anti-semitic. Well, all of Europe (you say) was/is anti-semitic. So, it must have been something else.

Do you think a person like La Pen or others would set up camps again if he were in total control? I don't think so, because people today are not like the people after the Great War. Even on the other side...say if Takeo took over Europe, I don't think he could gas millions of Christians. The essential lack of humanity is not there.

However, I do think that an Islamic Jihad that took over Europe or Israel could do such a deed. I think that the ideology of modern Jihadists is even more powerful than that of the Nazis. I also think that some of the teaching to modern Muslim children is just as potentially destructive as the teaching to the Hitler Jugend.

While it was the children of the WW1 generation who conquered Europe, it was the leaders (who had fought in WW1) who made the decisions regarding genocide and racial puriety.

[Muslima]

Easy! We ain't blood lusting Islamist like you. We don't believe Muhamad ever existed. If he was, I don't believe in his mission or his faith. I think Muhammad had he existed was a power hungry false prophet a lier, who invented the whole thing up, cause he was only looking for his own personal gain.

Are you related to those people who deny the holocaust happened? You sound exactly like them!

[MGB8]

Hitler was a ultra-nationalist and a supremacist. Germany needed a scapegoat. The Jews were weak, unprotected (relying on the Gentiles of Germany), and Hitler hated Judea-Christian morality (and viewed Jews as a driving force for that morality) and wanted to replace it with a Pagan-psuedo-Christian "religion of the blood" where Aryans would dominate. This made a lot of already Jew-hating Europeans feel real good, so they joined in.

As Hitler said, the great battle would be between the Jews and the Germans/Aryans.. not the English and the Germans, or the Americans or the Communists or the Russians.

Jews represented Western Liberalism to Hitler. He was a fascist supremacist. He despised things like "tolerance" and "human eqaulity." So he tried to eliminate the Jews, who he viewed as the banner carriers for such ideas.

[Mediocrates]

Nazi's didn't invent Jew-hate. They exploited it. For a thousand years prior everytime something went wrong, from civil wars, to the Inquisition, to the Black Death to the Crudsades, Someone pushed the idea that burning Jews was probably a morally good thing to do.

[Zlatorog]

While it was the children of the WW1 generation who conquered Europe, it was the leaders (who had fought in WW1) who made the decisions regarding genocide and racial puriety.

Er...

Look at the pictures. (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=8242&highlight=separation) The first Nazi gangs had to have their 'Nazi Streets' (pavements to walk on).

We were not 'punished' because we were 'Jew Smugglers', but because every German farmer had to have a nice place, while the others systematically lost everything. I have posted here how that looked like (inventory), but I don't remember the name of the thread.

[minusthejihad]

You're talking about the fifth column who were his enemy not because they were Jewish but because they saw him as a threat to their power and prestige. They broke every peace treaty, used every dirty trick to undermine his rule. They failed miserably.
The fifth column included Pagan's, Polytheist's, Jews Christians and others, and they were a despicable lot, who fought low and dirty. Quite frankly The Prophet was too kind to them. Even the Jewish tribes amongst the fifth column did not represent the majority of Jews anyway.

Nonetheless, he murdered Jews. And thats what counts, not what the majority believed. Because a couple of dumb Jews were in his good graces says nothing about his goodness.

Quite frankly The Prophet was too kind to them.

Huh? Quite frankly, Muslims have been way too kind too each other in the last several decades as well:

- Lebanon
- Iran vs. Iraq
- Invasion of Kuwait
- etc.

[Mil]

Holocaust was not the only genocide of Jews.

[1.5 million]

....even contemplated? Well it happens and has happened throughout history on large and small scales. Smaller scale cruelties and murders happen all the time and perhaps the perpetrator always can justify in their mind. Larger massacres and wholescale exterminations of groups of people ussually have occured in history when cultures collide and the more aggressive and technically advanced one sees members of the other as (essentially) less then human and where their resources are coveted (sometimes including human - as in slavery and forced labor). It is more rare that a group actually slaughters members of its own society - however it has happened in history as well - even in relatively modern history - with the Armenian Genocide being a major example.

In fact the parallels between the situation of the Armenians (of the ottoman Empire) and that of the Jews (of the German state and later of Europe as a whole) bare some striking similarities and these situations/environments became ones where genocide became possibble. Obvioulsy the existance of a racially obsessed fanatically nationalistic revolutionary political party and deplorable conditions that could allow such a repugnant non-mainstream group to gain power are all significant factors preluding great crimes against humanity to follow. In each case - Armenians and Jews were a clear ethno-religious minority that had recently (economically and socially) emerged from inferior status at a time when the fortunes of the majority group were waning. In each case elements of the majority group attempted to portray the minorities as working against the majorities interests and specifically being in league with enemies of the state - also of bringing foreign influence (such as the communism that has been mentioned - also a bit of a class struggle - where the radical political parties - Nazis and the CUP attempted to portray the Jews and Armenians as representing urban entrepenuers who were making out at the expense of the traditional rural peasentry of the nation). These hatreds were exacerbated by the crumbling fortunes of each nation/empire and the desire to find scapegoat. And in both cases there were economic and political incentives for preying upon the minority group and in each case the hatred of the minority was used as a focus for increasing nationalist feelings among the majority (and of course using this hyper-nationalism to justify land grabs, conquests and other aggressive actions and dehumanization of "enemys" etc..)

Likewise each group was able to enact most barbaric atrocities under the cover of war where all bets for civilized behavior were off - as another has said in this thread - because they could. These are all prime factors why such atrocities occured. Yes - hatred was there - but really in both cases - Germans against Jews and Turks agianst Armenians - it was a relatively recent development. The inority groups were tolerated and in each nation in fact could be considered somewhat a haven or at least the groups were allowed to do their own thing - until they became to be percieved as a threat due to their ascendency - particularly at a time of falling fortunes (and feared doom) by the majority. Before the period where they became seriously persecuted it really was only a small minority of the majority group who were just racial haters out of hand even if such a thing was perhaps an undercurrent in the dominant societies it never could have developed into such nastiness if the other factors were not present.

A really good discussion of most of the points I raise here can be found in a book by (Holocaust survivor) Robert Melson titled: Revolution and Genocide : On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226519910/103-7367598-9188607?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I have been recommending this book to a number of my Jewish and Armenian friends as a way to better understand some of the dynamics of genocide in general, and of the common elements of our specific genocides specifically. Well worth the read if this question (and some possible answers to it) is one that you want to understand.

[Muslima]

Nonetheless, he murdered Jews. And thats what counts, not what the majority believed. Because a couple of dumb Jews were in his good graces says nothing about his goodness.


.

MinustheJihad, the Prophet didn't "murder" anyone, do you really think his followers wouldn't have denounced him as a Prophet if he had murdered?
If you have specific incidents then mention them, but don't repeat lies that you hear.
Remember, even non Muslim historian's , often critical of Islam have called him history's greatest (kindest) conqueror. I posted links in some of the other threads, if you recall.

What? a couple of dumb Jews were in his good books? Wrong again!
Here is the first written constitution of the city of Medina (Yathrib) written by the Prophet. You will see he gave Jews (the tribes are named below) equal rights to Muslims.
http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/con_medina.htm
THE MEDINA CHARTER

622 C.E.

In the name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful.

(1) This is a document from Muhammad the prophet (governing the relations) between the believers and Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib, and those who followed them and joined them and labored with them.

(2) They are one community (umma) to the exclusion of all men.

(3) The Quraysh emigrants according to their present custom shall pay the bloodwit within their number and shall redeem their prisoners with the kindness and justice common among believers.

(4-8) The B. ‘Auf according to their present custom shall pay the bloodwit they paid in heatheism; every section shall redeem its prisoners with the kindness and justice common among believers. The B. Sa ida, the B. ‘l-Harith, and the B. Jusham, and the B. al-Najjar likewise.

(9-11) The B. ‘Amr b. ‘Auf, the B. al-Nabit and the B. al-‘Aus likewise.

(12)(a) Believers shall not leave anyone destitute among them by not paying his redemption money or bloodwit in kindness.

(12)(b) A believer shall not take as an ally the freedman of another Muslim against him.

(13) The God-fearing believers shall be against the rebellious or him who seeks to spread injustice, or sin or animosity, or corruption between believers; the hand of every man shall be against him even if he be a son of one of them.

(14) A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever, nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer.

(15) God’s protection is one, the least of them may give protection to a stranger on their behalf. Believers are friends one to the other to the exclusion of outsiders.

(16) To the Jew who follows us belong help and equality. He shall not be wronged nor shall his enemies be aided.

(17) The peace of the believers is indivisible. No separate peace shall be made when believers are fighting in the way of God. Conditions must be fair and equitable to all.

(18) In every foray a rider must take another behind him.

(19) The believers must avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of God.

(20)(a) The God-fearing believers enjoy the best and most upright guidance.

(20)(b) No polytheist shall take the property of person of Quraysh under his protection nor shall he intervene against a believer.

(21) Whoever is convicted of killing a believer without good reason shall be subject to retaliation unless the next of kin is satisfied (with blood-money), and the believers shall be against him as one man, and they are bound to take action against him.

(22) It shall not be lawful to a believer who holds by what is in this document and believes in God and the last day to help an evil-doer or to shelter him. The curse of God and His anger on the day of resurrection will be upon him if he does, and neither repentance nor ransom will be received from him.

(23) Whenever you differ about a matter it must be referred to God and to Muhammad.

(24) The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.

(25) The Jews of the B. ‘Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.

(26-35) The same applies to the Jews of the B. al-Najjar, B. al-Harith, B. Sai ida, B. Jusham, B. al-Aus, B. Tha'laba, and the Jafna, a clan of the Tha‘laba and the B. al-Shutayba. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The freedmen of Tha ‘laba are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.

(36) None of them shall go out to war save the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound. He who slays a man without warning slays himself and his household, unless it be one who has wronged him, for God will accept that.

(37) The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims their expenses. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. They must seek mutual advice and consultation, and loyalty is a protection against treachery. A man is not liable for his ally’s misdeeds. The wronged must be helped.

(38) The Jews must pay with the believers so long as war lasts.

(39) Yathrib shall be a sanctuary for the people of this document.

(40) A stranger under protection shall be as his host doing no harm and committing no crime.

(41) A woman shall only be given protection with the consent of her family.

(42) If any dispute or controversy likely to cause trouble should arise it must be referred to God and to Muhammad the apostle of God. God accepts what is nearest to piety and goodness in this document.

(43) Quraysh and their helpers shall not be given protection.

(44) The contracting parties are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib.

(45)(a) If they are called to make peace and maintain it they must do so; and if they make a similar demand on the Muslims it must be carried out except in the case of a holy war.

(45)(b) Every one shall have his portion from the side to which he belongs.

(46) The Jews of al-Aus, their freedmen and themselves have the same standing with the people of this document in purely loyalty from the people of this document. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. He who acquires ought acquires it for himself. God approves of this document.

(47) This deed will not protect the unjust and the sinner. The man who goes forth to fight and the man who stays at home in the city is safe unless he has been unjust and sinned. God is the protector of the good and God-fearing man and Muhammad is the apostle of God.

[water]

well it took alot of help
the camps were made in diffrent countrys so a bunch of the world let it happen
lets not forget hittller on the cover of US magazines
almost no one would let the refuges into there countrys

but the under lining thing might be there God said He would bring them back to the land of their fathers and we were in the brink of this happening so the evil they is against this god set to work to get rid of all the jews so it could be proved that their God did not exist

[1.5 million]

well it took alot of help
the camps were made in diffrent countrys so a bunch of the world let it happen
lets not forget hittller on the cover of US magazines
almost no one would let the refuges into there countrys

but the under lining thing might be there God said He would bring them back to the land of their fathers and we were in the brink of this happening so the evil they is against this god set to work to get rid of all the jews so it could be proved that their God did not exist

Yes I have participated in observances in Paris at the site of a sports staduim that is no longer there where the Nais loaded rounded up Jews onto boxcars and sent them to concentration camps to the East. My friend - who was a young boy at the time - escaped - however his entire family was loaded up and never seen or heard from again. Many people (Christians?) assisted the round up and persecution of Jews throughout Europe - many did this gladly - others out of fear - or obligation as they were cowed by state.German power - who knows...but many resited as well. My friend was saved by a Catholic family who took great risks to shelter and hide him and who worked to first warn his family (they did not listen and felt they were safe in France) and then to try to find his family after. So there are good people and bad - of all ethnicities/nationalities...and certainly Christian hatred of Jews has been an undercurrent since the begining and played a factor in the ease that a nominally non anti-semetic people/society prior to this time - the Germans - as well as others - some of whom had a loger/greater tradition of anti-Semiticsim - were able to turn on their fellow man so cruelly and vicsiciously.

[minusthejihad]

MinustheJihad, the Prophet didn't "murder" anyone, do you really think his followers wouldn't have denounced him as a Prophet if he had murdered?

OK, so he had his followers actually do the murdering. What a great guy. How many people has Yassir Terrorfat (The Father of Modern Terrorism) personally killed? You don't have to do the killing to have blood on your hands.

And by the way "(kindest) conqueror" is an oxymoron.

[ygalg1]

This is a lie. The truth is very well documented, if you bother to find out.

The Prophet's relations with the ahl kitaab (including Jews) are legendary.

You're talking about the fifth column who were his enemy not because they were Jewish but because they saw him as a threat to their power and prestige. They broke every peace treaty, used every dirty trick to undermine his rule. They failed miserably.
The fifth column included Pagan's, Polytheist's, Jews Christians and others, and they were a despicable lot, who fought low and dirty. Quite frankly The Prophet was too kind to them. Even the Jewish tribes amongst the fifth column did not represent the majority of Jews anyway.

The earliest converts to Islam were the Jews. One of the Prophet's wives was a Jewess (Safiyya) and his personal physician when he was head of state and the most powerful man in the Peninsula, was a practicing Jew, and the Prophet often said he trusted him with his life. Why would he trust a Jew with his life, if he was out to kill the rest of his tribe?

How dare you compare Hitler to the Prophet you moron. It's blasphemy.
mohammad his no deity to me so therefore its no blasphemy
but since you brought it up what is your comment about desecration of Joseph tomb by your fellow Muslims ?

[ygalg1]

MinustheJihad, the Prophet didn't "murder" anyone
It is to suggest Hitler was no murderer cause he was not participating in the killing that he by himself ordered to commit

[Muslima]

OK, so he had his followers actually do the murdering. What a great guy. How many people has Yassir Terrorfat (The Father of Modern Terrorism) personally killed? You don't have to do the killing to have blood on your hands.

And by the way "(kindest) conqueror" is an oxymoron.

Don't compare Arafat to The Prophet, what a travesty!

I note you don't give specific incidents.

The Prophet neither gave orders, nor did he murder. He certainly fought and killed in self defence.

You're going to have to do better than throw accusations around. I asked for specific incidents.......care to elaborate? same goes for you too ygalg

[minusthejihad]

you say tomatoe, i say tomatoe. (old Quail reference intended!)

you say killed in self defense, i say "murdered"

And you are right, at least Mohammed was a human, Terrorfish was a demon from the bowels of hell!

[Muslima]

mohammad his no deity to me so therefore its no blasphemy
but since you brought it up what is your comment about desecration of Joseph tomb by your fellow Muslims ?

The desecration of religious buildings is not allowed allowed in Islam. It is clearly against even the laws of Jihad. When you fight a war (Jihad), civilians (non armed men), women, children, religious buildings, men of religion, trees, nature, animals (and i forget the others) are all inviolate and not to be attacked.

Those who descecretated Joseph's tomb, clearly disrespected their own faith, and even worse, they disrespected the tomb of a Prophet. Joseph (Yousef) has a whole chapter dedicated to him in the Quran.

Their behaviour was despicable, and disgusting. What did the PA do to these culprits by the way? They should have punished them severely, since disrespecting any of the Prophets is clearly forbidden for a Muslim.

[minusthejihad]

The desecration of religious buildings is not allowed allowed in Islam. It is clearly against even the laws of Jihad. When you fight a war (Jihad) women, children, religious buildings, men of religion, trees, nature, animals (and i forget the others) are all inviolate and not to be attacked.

Those who descecretated Joseph's tomb, clearly disrespected their own faith, and even worse, they disrespected the tomb of a Prophet. Joseph (Yousef) has a whole chapter dedicated to him in the Quran.

Their behaviour was despicable, and disgusting. What did the PA do to these culprits by the way? They should have punished them severely, since disrespecting any of the Prophets is clearly forbidden for a Muslim.

well, the ones who peed and kakaed all over the Church of the Nativity were rewarded with nice homes and the welfare system by kind Eurabians.

And let's not forget the Donkey Shahid!

[ygalg1]

The desecration of religious buildings is not allowed allowed in Islam. It is clearly against even the laws of Jihad. When you fight a war (Jihad), civilians (non armed men), women, children, religious buildings, men of religion, trees, nature, animals (and i forget the others) are all inviolate and not to be attacked.

Those who descecretated Joseph's tomb, clearly disrespected their own faith, and even worse, they disrespected the tomb of a Prophet. Joseph (Yousef) has a whole chapter dedicated to him in the Quran.

Their behaviour was despicable, and disgusting. What did the PA do to these culprits by the way? They should have punished them severely, since disrespecting any of the Prophets is clearly forbidden for a Muslim.
Well dear Muslima those who committed this desecration are the ones you defending against us

It was unnecessary to behave such (we share similar story about joseph in torah and Quran) it is important for both of us we could have found the milky way

But after this I have no comfort the red lines been crossed by your own fellow Muslims

Shamefully we are also considered accessory we saw and do nothing to stop it nor did one of your sensible Muslims

But it does not stops there all the cemeteries around the world been desecrated
the house of pray all that build to honor G-d been desecrated no matter if these are Muslim, Jewish, Christian it is limited to us period!
G-d is angry and he delivers punishment on all of us

[Mediocrates]

We understand what the abstract principles are. They are as uncontestable as they are irrelvant.

[ygalg1]

We understand what the abstract principles are. They are as uncontestable as they are irrelvant.
you mean as the talmud suggests "customs are stronger than laws" ?

[Mediocrates]

We all agree that doing good is good that kindness is a noble thing. That's not the point. The point reality and how societies and governments actually operate.

[Roland]

you mean as the talmud suggests "customs are stronger than laws" ?
Are laws made to formalise or justify customs, or moral, or to moralise customs?
Is the only purpose of laws to be instrumental in governing the population?

[ygalg1]

Are laws made to formalise or justify customs, or moral, or to moralise customs?
Is the only purpose of laws to be instrumental in governing the population?
Probably all above might be even more options I am not an expert on that field :o

[Sean]

It was Europe that created Hitler and a Germany that would welcome such a dictator.

At the close of WWI, as a result of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was blamed for Europe's devastation. Though Germany did not initiate the conflict, they were stuck with the an overwhelming repair bill and were hampered with militaristic restrictions. Germany should not have been blamed for WWI...all of the major players were, in a sense, equaly guilty participants in the notorious 'armsrace' during the start of the 20th century. Each had the same nationalistic mindset and sought after similar goals. Yet due to Germany's success, they were stuck with the blame.

I believe it was this unfair treatment that created a disenfranchised German nation ready to follow an ambitious and patriotic leader. One must also realize that the holocaust did not begin when Hitler first arose to power...yet instead, it was in the later days of his nazi regime. Preaching anti-semitism, evidenced in his hate-filled speeches, he stereotyped the Jew. He incited anger against them in the hearts of many Germans.

Yet it would be ignorant to catorgorize the people of WWII Germany as 'Jew-haters'. I have heard this often and it is a preposterous suggestion. Many Germans disagreed with Hitler's warped ideals but were living in fear of SS reprisals. Still other Germans put forth a significant effort on the part of Christians in Germany to help the beleaguered Jews. And lastly, there were even a vast number of Germans who were unaware of the holocaust. Yes, I know this sounds rediculous...but its TRUE. It was well known at the height of Hitler's power that Jews were being rounded up and sent away....though it does not mean that Germans knew that these Jews were being mass-murdered. There were almost none (if any) death camps in Germany. Hitler strategicaly placed them outside of his country's boundaries to hide this dirty business from his people.

Now, I am not saying that Germans were unaware that Jews were being deported or sent to detainment camps...for that must have been obvious to everyone. Having said this, it is more understandable that more Germans did not standup to Hitler during the height of his power....those who were not convinced of Hitler's 'parasitic' demonization of the Jews were less likely to risk treason to save them from work camps or deportation. I see those types of Germans comparable to Americans during the detainment of the Japanese. Furthermore, there may have been a certain point in time that more and more Germans began to realize what might be actually happening to the Jews....though at this point I would say Hitler's regime had an infinately tight grasp on the reigns of German control; therefore almost anyone who opposed Hitler must have been paralyzed with fear of discovery.

Look, I'm not trying to justify German actions or attitudes during WWII. I merely seek to correct any who possess the flawed opinion that the entire European continent or even the entire nation of Germany hated the Jews.

Any thoughts?

[Mediocrates]

The Holocaust started on 09/15/1935 with the Nuremberg Race Laws. Actually you could go further back to 04/07/1993 with the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service barring Jews from the Civil Service. There were any number of American and other western journalists, authors and radio personalities including Walter Winchell who drew attention to it. Mein Kampf had already been translated into English. And even were one to ignore all of this, Kristallnacht on 11/09-10/1938 was world wide news.

[Sean]

I am not arguing the racism sponsered by the German government that impacted a significant portion of the German population. Its just that I constantly hear generalizations when it comes to the people of Germany during the period. Kristallnacht was a horrendous event of which I was previously unaware. It is sad that such an event could take place in any country. However, I still maintain the opinion that there existed a vast number of Germans that opposed the racism and actions of the nazi party....it is just sad that more did not stand up to Hitler...I suppose they were pacified by fear. Hitler was notorious for killing any who opposed him (even his own friends).

[MGB8]

Sean, I think you are viewing this too much in a black/white situation.

How about this - most Germans really didn't give a hoot what happened to the Jews. So they jumped aboard the bandwagon (as did much of Europe), not because they had a massive personal hatred, maybe a "cultural" dislike of "the other" - and Jews are small (therefore weak), relatively succesful (therefore resentable) and definately different (therefore other)... sure... the humiliation of Germany by France et al spurred the anger in Germany that became focused, in part, on Jews. So what? I can be angry because my job stinks... does that give me the right to beat my dog?

The Germans chose the Jews as the primary target to committ genocide upon... and the German people, average people, were indeed part and parsel. The source of the anger is irrelevant. They are not excused by fear or anything else, either. The German people were part of a monstrocity. They are not alone. Lots of people in this world committ monstrocities... some on par with the Holocaust (Rwanda, Stalin, etc.) - it is not isolated. The bottom line is it is a clear example of human failures... a moral lesson for the rest of us, and one which the world clearly still hasn't learned.

[1.5 million]

Sean, I think you are viewing this too much in a black/white situation.

How about this - most Germans really didn't give a hoot what happened to the Jews. So they jumped aboard the bandwagon (as did much of Europe), not because they had a massive personal hatred, maybe a "cultural" dislike of "the other" - and Jews are small (therefore weak), relatively succesful (therefore resentable) and definately different (therefore other)... sure... the humiliation of Germany by France et al spurred the anger in Germany that became focused, in part, on Jews. So what? I can be angry because my job stinks... does that give me the right to beat my dog?

The Germans chose the Jews as the primary target to committ genocide upon... and the German people, average people, were indeed part and parsel. The source of the anger is irrelevant. They are not excused by fear or anything else, either. The German people were part of a monstrocity. They are not alone. Lots of people in this world committ monstrocities... some on par with the Holocaust (Rwanda, Stalin, etc.) - it is not isolated. The bottom line is it is a clear example of human failures... a moral lesson for the rest of us, and one which the world clearly still hasn't learned.

This post of yours as well as Sean's statement (post #39 in this thread) are I think very close to to truth (and better then some of the more simplisitc and commonly accepted rational). Obviously the exsistance in German society (as in all European/Christian) society of an undercurrent of anti-semitism allows for a specific ease to exploit this particular hatred of Jews...however it requires very specific circumstances for such hate to blossom or be nurtured to the degree to result in widespread violence and even more to be manipulated to result in genocide. I had earlier in this thread posted regarding some of the common factors experienced by both the Jewish and Armenian ethno-religeous minorities and the particular (dire) situations of the majority groups and the rise of violent racsim in each case which led to an environment condusive to genocide. Much of my thinking along these lines has been inflenced by Robert Melson in the book that I referenced. Here is a citation to an on line interview where he elaborates on the factors that influenced his research into these common phenomonon. (his book presents the arguments much better BTW). The actual position he takes is really only discussed beginning about halfway down I look foreward to comments.


http://www.aztagdaily.com/interviews/melson.htm

[Mil]

Posted by Sean:


At the close of WWI, as a result of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was blamed for Europe's devastation. Though Germany did not initiate the conflict,

Little do you know.... Germany bares the main responsibility for WWI.


they were stuck with the an overwhelming repair bill and were hampered with militaristic restrictions. Germany should not have been blamed for WWI...all of the major players were, in a sense, equaly guilty participants in the notorious 'armsrace' during the start of the 20th century.

The main cause of WWI was not the infamous Arm Race but expanding German power withing Europe.


Each had the same nationalistic mindset and sought after similar goals. Yet due to Germany's success, they were stuck with the blame.

What blame? Nationalism had the least to do with WWI. WWI was caused by inter-European emperial politics.


I believe it was this unfair treatment that created a disenfranchised German nation ready to follow an ambitious and patriotic leader.

Hitler was an Austrian. Anyways, if anything Hitler was more of a nationalist then a patriot. There were many German-Jewish patriots and ultra-nationalists in post WWI Germany on the same scale as Hitler.


Yet it would be ignorant to catorgorize the people of WWII Germany as 'Jew-haters'. I have heard this often and it is a preposterous suggestion.

Have you ever lived in Europe?


Many Germans disagreed with Hitler's warped ideals but were living in fear of SS reprisals.

:) You are too naive. Germans were ready to follow Hitler into battle and fight till death for Hitler's goals without any SS reprisals.


Still other Germans put forth a significant effort on the part of Christians in Germany to help the beleaguered Jews.[b/]

How exactly? Jewish Pogroms in Germany did not start during WWII but long before. What did those Christians do?


[b]And lastly, there were even a vast number of Germans who were unaware of the holocaust. Yes, I know this sounds rediculous...but its TRUE. It was well known at the height of Hitler's power that Jews were being rounded up and sent away....though it does not mean that Germans knew that these Jews were being mass-murdered.

Everyone knew - the whole of Europe knew of what Hitler did to the Jews. All this cr***p you read in social-science books is simply radiculous.


There were almost none (if any) death camps in Germany.

Are you kidding me?


Hitler strategicaly placed them outside of his country's boundaries to hide this dirty business from his people.

???? Were do you get your info from? Source may be?

Any thoughts?

Your knowledge of that particular history is very poor. I can recommend some reading material - if you like.

[Roland]

There were almost none (if any) death camps in Germany.
Hitler strategicaly placed them outside of his country's boundaries to hide this dirty business from his people.
I guess Sean has heared of the more famous industry-style extermination sites like Treblinka, Theresienstadt oder Auschwitz.
Map of major camps. (http://popup.zdf.de/download/wissen/holokaust/karte.htm)
Dachau ist suburbia to Munich, Neuengamme is a twenty minutes trip from where I work, if you'd try to avoid the rush-hour, that it.
Whereever work needed to be done, there was a labour camp nearby.
Many were tortured and exhausted to death there.
I think I find them even more horrifying than bigger camps.
Many eye-witnesses (children at that time) I have met, have told me, they knew jews were rounded up and deported. I guess they were too frightened, to think about what would happen to them, when uniformed hordes raided the neighbours's flats and arrested "the nice old lady from one floor above". Konzentrationcamps were not advertised very much.
The ordinary people were very busy not to attract the dreaded Gestapo's attention. (BTW, later, when nazism was replaced by communism in East-Germany, the Gestapo was renamed to Stasi, but I don't know how they call it today).

[Roland]

There is no such thing as one single ultimate cause for WWI or WWII or anti-semitism.
But it is very important to prevent the political, economical and social circumstances to develop towards a pre-WWII situation.

[Mil]

Posted by Roland:

There is no such thing as one single ultimate cause for WWI or WWII or anti-semitism.

Roland, no offence but the one single ultimate cause for WWI was Germany or rather growing German power and worldly influence. In reality the causes were no different then lets say of those of the Crimean war or the Russo-Japanese war.

[The Negotiator]

Having been to Germany and met German people; I have to say if you look at German society you will find the most disgusting, the most backward, and most intolerant races of all Europe and perhaps even the world, not only did they massacres six million Jews but also 20 million Russians, These people deserve nothing less than total war, I wish the Jewish people would kill as many Germans as were killed in WW2 these people deserve no mercy they are vermin and must be given a bloody nose for the atrocities they commited. I for one wish that the US had used nuclear weapons on Germany in addition to Japan.

[Mira]

Having been to Germany and met German people; I have to say if you look at German society you will find the most disgusting, the most backward, and most intolerant races of all Europe and perhaps even the world, not only did they massacres six million Jews but also 20 million Russians, These people deserve nothing less than total war, I wish the Jewish people would kill as many Germans as were killed in WW2 these people deserve no mercy they are vermin and must be given a bloody nose for the atrocities they commited. I for one wish that the US had used nuclear weapons on Germany in addition to Japan.

Man, get the hell out of here. We have enough nutjobs on this board. Do us a favor and be someone else's "friend."

[Mil]

Posted by Negotiator:

Having been to Germany and met German people; I have to say if you look at German society you will find the most disgusting, the most backward, and most intolerant races of all Europe and perhaps even the world, not only did they massacres six million Jews but also 20 million Russians, These people deserve nothing less than total war, I wish the Jewish people would kill as many Germans as were killed in WW2 these people deserve no mercy they are vermin and must be given a bloody nose for the atrocities they commited. I for one wish that the US had used nuclear weapons on Germany in addition to Japan.

In fact - I agree. It was 27 million Soviet citizens and around 13 million other European citizens with over 50 million others damaged for life.

Unfortunately the US could not drop the bomb on Germany, even if it would be ready by the time that Germany surrendered, as it would upset the Soviets. However, the Germans still complain about Dresden and other such places.

[1.5 million]

Well I can't at all agree with anyone who would so label a (any) race/nation such and who would advocate their extermination...even though there can be no doubt the enormous destruction and enormous crimes commited by Germans. Perhaps one could argue that there are traces of something present in German culture or society or even ethnic make-up (I don't 100% buy this however - the genetic component...cultural perhaps...) that might give them a popensity to commit such great aggression and contemplate and carry out such great evils...but I really think that although there are perhaps such factors what occured is more explainable by time and circumstance and a whole variety of factors and that the ultimate lesson is that these things could happen again and by anyone (any nation/ethnicity or what have you)...this is really the lesson and why we need to examine and understand the factors and circumstances and signs that such a thing might occur somewhere to someone (I'm talking more of genocide but just in general with extreme ethnic/nationalistic based racism) leading to (barbaric/extreme) actions - to include wars of aggression - with the key point being the ability of such a group to dehumanize others and justify any means towards the (nationalistic...or similar) end.

the Germans still complain about Dresden and other such places.

Yeah - I ran into this twice 2 years ago in Germany. The person (German) in each case seemed to go out of their way to blame America for excesses and whine about German suffering and the loss of precious cultural/historical monuments or such to American zeal...Well each time - and once was on a tour - I had to very loudly and clearly stop all proceedings and lay out the "Oh no you don't - And who deserves the blame for all of this - who started the war - who commited unthinkable atrocities and who did humanity have the ultimate obligation to stop at all costs - end of story." (and by implication you ought to be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting to transfer blame...)...the Germans were speechless and had no answer but I could tell they were both shamed yet continued to feel the way they had previously (my impression)...

[Mira]

Posted by Negotiator:

Having been to Germany and met German people; I have to say if you look at German society you will find the most disgusting, the most backward, and most intolerant races of all Europe and perhaps even the world, not only did they massacres six million Jews but also 20 million Russians, These people deserve nothing less than total war, I wish the Jewish people would kill as many Germans as were killed in WW2 these people deserve no mercy they are vermin and must be given a bloody nose for the atrocities they commited. I for one wish that the US had used nuclear weapons on Germany in addition to Japan.

In fact - I agree. It was 27 million Soviet citizens and around 13 million other European citizens with over 50 million others damaged for life.

Unfortunately the US could not drop the bomb on Germany, even if it would be ready by the time that Germany surrendered, as it would upset the Soviets. However, the Germans still complain about Dresden and other such places.

WTF, Mil? You agree that we should go kill 6 million Germans because of what happened in the last century? You agree that the German people today are vermon? You agree that even though the allies used enough fire power to win the war, that the US should have used even more? WTF? I don't expect twenty year old Germans to walk around with their heads permanently lowered for things that were done in previous generations. I only hold people responsible for how they remember history and the German government has done a better job than any other government I can think of in accepting accountability for crimes commited by their country. Think about it. Holocaust denial is acceptable anywhere else in the world outside of Germany. The German government has accepted responsability, apologized and made restitution for the crimes of the Nazi regime. It doesn't undo what was done. It doesn't allow any of us to forgive anyone in any of the victims names. It doesn't make us even close to whole again. But it should mean something when there are other ethnic groups out there who are still waiting for massive crimes done to them to be acknowledged by the governments that carried them out.

[1.5 million]

WTF, Mil? You agree that we should go kill 6 million Germans because of what happened in the last century? You agree that the German people today are vermon? You agree that even though the allies used enough fire power to win the war, that the US should have used even more? WTF? I don't expect twenty year old Germans to walk around with their heads permanently lowered for things that were done in previous generations. I only hold people responsible for how they remember history and the German government has done a better job than any other government I can think of in accepting accountability for crimes commited by their country. Think about it. Holocaust denial is acceptable anywhere else in the world outside of Germany. The German government has accepted responsability, apologized and made restitution for the crimes of the Nazi regime. It doesn't undo what was done. It doesn't allow any of us to forgive anyone in any of the victims names. It doesn't make us even close to whole again. But it should mean something when there are other ethnic groups out there who are still waiting for massive crimes done to them to be acknowledged by the governments that carried them out.

Well said...can you imagine being Armenian and still having the Turks completely and utterly deny the crimes they commited angainst your kin? ..and not only that the Turks (as a whole...and specifically the government) still parrots and repeats the very same racist charges and attitudes used to justify the killings in the first place (that are remarkably similar to charges the Germans leveled aginst the Jews)...and there is absolutly no remorse - none.

It is also sad that a member of a group that has encountered such extreme race based persecution would advocate something similar to anyone else - have no lessons been learned whatsoever? Most sad.

[Mediocrates]

Before we all start wearing funny hats and having a sing along let's not forget that many many many Jews were turned in and/or murdered by their own Polish, Russian, Ukranian, French, Dutch, Greek etc etc. neighbors.

[1.5 million]

Before we all start wearing funny hats and having a sing along let's not forget that many many many Jews were turned in and/or murdered by their own Polish, Russian, Ukranian, French, Dutch, Greek etc etc. neighbors.

True - there is no question that anti-semitism runs deep - and other factors as well in these sort of times - but mostly that Jews were "other" then they and thus not thought of (by many) as either worth any effort to defend or even worse - that many were happy to take action against them. Still - don't at the same time discount the many acts of herosim and humanity by people of all these nationalities...I myself have a very good friend who as a boy was saved by a Catholic family and the mother in this family also risked herself to attempt to warn and save the rest of his family (but to no avail).

[Mil]

Posted by Mira:


WTF, Mil? You agree that we should go kill 6 million Germans because of what happened in the last century?

If I had a chance - yes. Germans should feel very lucky that neither the allies nor the Soviets, especially the Soviets, decided to even the numbers just a little.


You agree that the German people today are vermon?

That's a subjective question as far as I am concerned. They killed half of my family - how should I feel exactly?


You agree that even though the allies used enough fire power to win the war, that the US should have used even more?

If the war could have ended faster by dropping the bomb on lets say Munich - definetly!!!


WTF? I don't expect twenty year old Germans to walk around with their heads permanently lowered for things that were done in previous generations.

Definetly and for generations to come!!! I don't think you have the slightest idea of what actually transpired 60 years ago. I do. And it wasn't just the Holocaust.

I only hold people responsible for how they remember history and the German government has done a better job than any other government I can think of in accepting accountability for crimes commited by their country.

You really think? Why is Germany criticizing Israel then? I expect Germany to be fully on the Jewish side - all 100% of it. Or may be build a city populated only by Gypsies. Or may be spend half of their GDP on Russia... Russia/CIS still has the largest ratio of women to men in the world - results of that war. Seriously, by the end of WWII there were physically 10,000,000 more women then men in USSR. My grand-dad's graduating class of 50 young officers only had three survivors.

Think about it. Holocaust denial is acceptable anywhere else in the world outside of Germany.

No. It is also dissallowed in Austria, Poland... and a few other places.


The German government has accepted responsability, apologized and made restitution for the crimes of the Nazi regime.

I did not get any restitution. My grandparents got a 3,000 dollar check in the mail a few years back. Do you think $3,000 resolves my gramma's evacuation ( may be I'll post her story of how that evacuation actually took place)? Going through hunger, typhoid and 14-hour work days on the cotton fields of Kazakhstan?


It doesn't undo what was done.

Of course it does not; but for me it seems like unfinished business. I deserve revenge.


It doesn't allow any of us to forgive anyone in any of the victims names. It doesn't make us even close to whole again. But it should mean something when there are other ethnic groups out there who are still waiting for massive crimes done to them to be acknowledged by the governments that carried them out.

I really doubt you know what happened during WWII and what the Germans actually did and how they did it. I feel sympathetic for the Armenians, Tutsies, Rwandans, hell even the Palestinians but nothing, absolutely nothing, comes even close to what happened 60 years ago and what the Germans have done. May be if you would be born in the place where I was you would understand this a bit better.

[Mil]

Posted by 1.5 million:

Perhaps one could argue that there are traces of something present in German culture or society or even ethnic make-up (I don't 100% buy this however - the genetic component...cultural perhaps...) that might give them a popensity to commit such great aggression and contemplate and carry out such great evils...

The million dollar question is - could it have happened, they way it happened, in a place other then Germany?

[Roland]

If the war could have ended faster by dropping the bomb on lets say Munich - definetly!!! I really don't think so.
Why is Germany criticizing Israel then? I expect Germany to be fully on the Jewish side - all 100% of it.Germany is 100% on the jewish side. That does not contradict criticism.
Or may be build a city populated only by Gypsies.Really, that is BS. No gypsy would stick to one city, not even to their own.
Or may be spend half of their GDP on Russia... I don't have numbers, but I think that is already done. Not that is would have changed anything.
I deserve revenge. What exactly do you want to do?

[The Negotiator]

I really don't think so.
Germany is 100% on the jewish side. That does not contradict criticism.
Really, that is BS. No gypsy would stick to one city, not even to their own.
I don't have numbers, but I think that is already done. Not that is would have changed anything.
What exactly do you want to do?

Well thats your opinion and you are welcome to it, Germans are a murderous people that commited the most henious crimes imaginable and some individuals continue to this day to deny these crimes, Getting back to the nuclear issue yes! Nuclear weapons should have been used against Germany, Its no secret that the Germans were secretly trying to build nuclear weapons themselves, you have to ask yourselves would the Nazis/Germans have used the nuclear weapons if they had them and others didnt? Yes most definitely they would have and not thought twice, So why then should anyone think twice about using such weapons against Germany?

The only reason that Nuclear weapons were used against Japan and not Germany are simple: Germans are white, Japanese are yellow with slanted eyes, The Whiteman will never use nuclear weapons on a whiteman, but has no problem using them against non-whites.

:eek:

[The Negotiator]

Are Germans really sorry for the crimes they commited?

http://www.zundelsite.org/

See for yourself.
:rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

I can't say I haven't said that we might have used the bomb on the wrong country myself. But I'm reading this and it sounds over the top even to me. First off Zundel is a wingnut who's been ping ponged between the US and Canada for years pending extradition. He and all of his slimy followers are losers and crackpots. Second, we don't blemish the sons of the sons for their grandfathers' evil, do we? And even if there was a strong undercurrent of antisemitism in Europe which I don't doubt there is, what does it matter if all they do is sit around in lederhosen and sing the Horst Wessel song? You're never going to compel people to tolerate you. Right now, right here, we have bigger problems.

[Mil]

Posted by Negotiator:


The only reason that Nuclear weapons were used against Japan and not Germany are simple: Germans are white, Japanese are yellow with slanted eyes, The Whiteman will never use nuclear weapons on a whiteman, but has no problem using them against non-whites.

No, that was not the reason at all. The reasons were two:
1. The bomb was not ready
2. A nuclear strike on Germany would have provoked the Soviets

I don't doubt for a second that if a bomb was available and the political situation allowed for it - the bomb would have been used. May be not on Berlin but certainly on some town that mattered. Plus why even use the nuke?

The allies had enough air fire-power to simulate distruction of a nuclear strike. On April 9th 1945, I believe, US used it's new required B-29s for a run on Tokyo. 100,000 people were killed during the bombing raid. That's more then either in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In Dresden over 25,000 were killed in a single night, for example.

[Mediocrates]

If you are interested in the primary source material related to Hiroshima/Nagasaki check out the public archives here.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/index.htm

[Mil]

The use of the atomic bomb was three fold in my opinion:

1. End the war as soon as possible ( with that I personally agree - the war had to end even for the sake of the Japanese themselves).
2. Intimidate the Soviets a little ( Cold War in all its glory did not start as of yet)
3. Show American Power

[1.5 million]

Posted by 1.5 million:

Perhaps one could argue that there are traces of something present in German culture or society or even ethnic make-up (I don't 100% buy this however - the genetic component...cultural perhaps...) that might give them a popensity to commit such great aggression and contemplate and carry out such great evils...

The million dollar question is - could it have happened, they way it happened, in a place other then Germany?

Obviously there were a confluence of factors - and one is the issue of German militarism and their analness when it comes to certain things - that flavored how things were done and that they geared up for war as they did in the first place - but yes - for the most part - other then the obvious that nothing in history truly repeats - that everything has unique circumstance and actors - even if patterns resemble and such - I would say that yes - such things could happen in very similar ways with other places and other people. However I do understand the particualr aspect of anti-semitism and of German character/culture that profoundly influenced what occured.

[1.5 million]

It doesn't allow any of us to forgive anyone in any of the victims names. It doesn't make us even close to whole again. But it should mean something when there are other ethnic groups out there who are still waiting for massive crimes done to them to be acknowledged by the governments that carried them out.

I really doubt you know what happened during WWII and what the Germans actually did and how they did it. I feel sympathetic for the Armenians, Tutsies, Rwandans, hell even the Palestinians but nothing, absolutely nothing, comes even close to what happened 60 years ago and what the Germans have done. May be if you would be born in the place where I was you would understand this a bit better.

I added the bold to your comment because - while I sympathize with your perspective - i have to assume by your comment that you are not fully informed as to what occured to the Armenains in 1915/16 and before and after that time. In fact nearly everything that occured to the Jewss during WWII/the Holocaust had a precident in Anatolia during this period and Armenians suffered in essentially the exact same ways - were subjected to essentially the exact same type of cruelties and had an even greater mortality rate as a percentage of population (if Jewish camps were not liberated and if Germany not occupied and such when it was perhaps outlcome would have been different). I realize that most jews - as most people in the world - are not nearly as familiar with the details of the Armenian Genocide - but you might be very suprised at the parallels in so very many respects and at the level of destruction and barbarity. While there is no question that Jews suffered greatly (and uniquely during that time) and were rounded up from distant regions and sought out etc and a pure racist anti-semitism was a driving factor of a sort that has perhaps never before been witnessed - it is a mistake to believe that such a (very similar) thing may not have happend to others at other times. Robert Melson speaks of "total domestic genocide" to differentiate between the levels of societal destructieness as experienced by the Armenians and Jews versus other - equally terrible to those involved - but less comprehensive genocides of other people in recent times. There is still much to learn and discover to both acknowledge and prevent all of these sorts of crimes for future generations.

[Mira]

I really doubt you know what happened during WWII and what the Germans actually did and how they did it. I feel sympathetic for the Armenians, Tutsies, Rwandans, hell even the Palestinians but nothing, absolutely nothing, comes even close to what happened 60 years ago and what the Germans have done. May be if you would be born in the place where I was you would understand this a bit better.

You're not the only person here who knows some things. I know what went on (although you are right in that I can't fully understand it) and I don't compare what the Nazis did to what anybody else has done. And to answer your question:

The million dollar question is - could it have happened, they way it happened, in a place other then Germany?

The conditions were ripe all over Europe for many things, even genocide, but there were some things that were unique to the Nazis in world history, the scientific experiments, the willingness of so many to carry out certain acts on human beings on such a dramtic scale and with incredible organization and efficency. I really believe that even the Arab Islamists who brainwash children into thinking that it pleases Allah to mass murder Jews don't have what it takes to do what the Nazis did. Their rhetoric comes closer to the Nazi's rhetoric than anything I have ever heard, and some of them would kill every last one of us if they could, but they could never do it in the way that the Nazis tried to do it. At some point, I think they would break down. The Arabs have too much humanity, even with their cult of death suicide bombing, they want to terrorize us because they still see us as human beings who are capable of being terrorized and they aren't that "strong." The Nazis didn't care one way or another. It was like going to work for them.

But I'm not going to blame people who weren't even born for something that was done in the past. It's not about them. It's about me, and keeping my own head straight. You see, I've become much more cynical about world affairs and human nature over the past four years. If there is one personal lesson that I have learned from world affairs, not just WWII, but all of history and what is happening right now, it is never to be weak. You can try and be good, but if you are weak, the rest of the world can still make you look bad if it suits them. The most imprtant thing is not to be "right." Not in today's world of moral relativism. A country needs to be good enough not to demoralize its people. Anything beyond that is a waste and even dangerous for some countries.

[Roland]

unique to the Nazis ... incredible organization and efficency.Being effective has been spread around the world.
But luckily some customers didn't buy. The arab nations' ineffeciency is only topped by some african ones.

It was like going to work for them. No. I don't think so. Being defiant and revolutionary wasn't the biggest part of the german culture at that time. The "incredible organization and efficency" had dreaded names in everybodies' daily life: Gestapo and Denuntiation.

[genghis_tom]

In my opinion, Hitler was an amazing leader. He pulled Germany from the Weimar Republic and a pathetic economy to an industrial powerhouse that came very close to European domination.
I like the leader's effectiveness and organization (not organizationS), but I hate the man and what he ended up doing. Before anyone accuses me, I would like to say that I am pro-semite, and that what Hitler did was horrible.

[Roland]

The next million dollar question is, would germany have come "close to european domination" without Hitler, anti-semitism and war?
What would the world look like today?

[Mil]

Posted by ghengis_tom:


In my opinion, Hitler was an amazing leader. He pulled Germany from the Weimar Republic and a pathetic economy to an industrial powerhouse that came very close to European domination.

Germany was becoming an industrial powerhouse under Weimar Republic.


I like the leader's effectiveness and organization (not organizationS),

Hitler was not a miracle man at all.


but I hate the man and what he ended up doing. Before anyone accuses me, I would like to say that I am pro-semite, and that what Hitler did was horrible.

I don't have a problem with you defending Hitler as a leader - the problem is that he is given much more credit then he deserves for the things he's being praised. This thing about pulling Germany out of the economic slump of the 20s, for example.

[Mil]

Posted by Roland:


The next million dollar question is, would germany have come "close to european domination" without Hitler, anti-semitism and war?

Of course - it is definetly a world power now and should definetly replace France as a permanent security council member. Since the Bismarkian times Germany has been the most powerful country on the European continent both military and economically - even post WWI.

What would the world look like today?

Not much different from today - unless the world would have gone to war against USSR or the other way around.

[Mira]

The next million dollar question is, would germany have come "close to european domination" without Hitler, anti-semitism and war?
What would the world look like today?

It's hard to say, perhaps there would have been an internal collision between the anti-modernists and those who supported the Pan-German League. It was Hitler's ability to speak to the nationalism in both camps that made him so successful in Germany. The fate of the Jews in Europe was so tied to liberalism that people who felt they were victims of all the rapid economic and social transformations (urbanization, capitalism, internationalism etc...) associated their victimization with those who seemed to benefit most from liberalization. Much more curious than anti-semitism from the anti-modernists was the anti-semitism from the modernists, from those intellectuals and businessmen who also benefited from liberalism. For these people, it wasn't just the Jews, but any "foreign" elements that mared the national spirit in German society that they were against. As for what the world would like today without all of the things you mentioned....I really have no idea. The same forces that were happening in Germany were happening elsewhere. You have anti-globalization forces today and various other political movements that put a high value on ideology over self-interest.

[Ossian]

Surely hating the Germans full stop, even in 2005, is falling into the same evil mental mind set as the Nazis; hating an entire ethnic or national group so much that you can hate one person for being a member of that group.

Germany and Austria did'nt just produce evil men like Hitler and Himmler but also heavenly artists such as Mozart and Beethoven.

[MGB8]

Sure, its not good to still hate the Germans - Germans who were born after their parents or grandparents either committed, supported, tacitly supported, didn't act to stop, or, in some noble instances, did act against the atrocities of the Holocaust.

There is a big difference, though.

FEELING is not at all the same as DOING. Germans could have hated Jews and still not thought about committing industrialized genocide - could have been revolted by the idea and rejected it outright.

[1.5 million]

Sure, its not good to still hate the Germans - Germans who were born after their parents or grandparents either committed, supported, tacitly supported, didn't act to stop, or, in some noble instances, did act against the atrocities of the Holocaust.

There is a big difference, though.

FEELING is not at all the same as DOING. Germans could have hated Jews and still not thought about committing industrialized genocide - could have been revolted by the idea and rejected it outright.

This shows what great stress and despiration and fear can do. Face it most people are not heros - they are sheep - they will never stand up for others at their own (possible) expense. Others of course just didn't care or worse. But yes - I agree - normal humans would be revolted and would not stand for it (slaughtering of others - even just rounding them up for no real reason). Obviously the circumstances/environment was not normal. Germans accepted a lot of Nazi BS against the Jews and even against theri own freedoms in the years/decade prior to WWII - they had become desensitized - many also had become enraptured with the Hitler/Nazi message that in german's eyes spoke to the greatness of their people and great promiss for the future where all they had known was despair, weakness, humiliation and hard times for a generation. That part of this message was to hate others - well many perhaps were disgusted by this - but one can understand how manipulation of mass media - over the years (and I'm sure many of you have seen the length and bredth of anti-semetic media produced by the Germans over this period) - well many bought into this - and went along with it - got swept up by it - even if they were not-predisposed - they were just weak. And of course for those pre-disposed (of which there has alwways been at the very least an undercurrent) - they could wallow in it - even get excited by it - participate, recruit their friends etc - feel good about putting others down - people that they despised - felt were the "enemy" - the "other" - this is how it works....scapegoating and feeling more self-important by putting others down...and so these undesirebles were rounded up and put so work...perhaps even to death...well with the war on....etc - and many Germans probably just didn't want to know or think about what was happening to these poeple - others maybe though it was justified and of course we know many participated in it - whether just "following orders" for whatever reason - and here that typical Prussian mindset does come into play - or too we see sadism and other ambition and hatred and so on and so forth...

[Mil]

Posted by Ossian:


Surely hating the Germans full stop, even in 2005, is falling into the same evil mental mind set as the Nazis; hating an entire ethnic or national group so much that you can hate one person for being a member of that group.

Speak for yourself.

Germany and Austria did'nt just produce evil men like Hitler and Himmler but also heavenly artists such as Mozart and Beethoven.

Who cares. They can stick it up their... you know what. Baring responsibility for 45 million people is beyond your moral interpretation of reality.

[The Negotiator]

Well I hate Germans more than anyone else; That being said none of my family were affected by German atrocities, My hatred of Germans stems from thier attitude, thier disgusting language and above all I have nothing but utter contempt for German culture and history, These people always were Barbarians and always will be, Even the cultured Romans thought of the people of Germania as savages and rightly so may I add.

I for one shed no tears for Dresden or anything else, Infact I fully approve of the methods used and find it regrettable that nuclear weapons were not used on German cities.

[1.5 million]

negotiator - you are a moron and an imbicile. I'm not trrying to insult you or anything - it is just a statement of fact - surely more accurate and based on the evidence then any claim you have to know enough and or appreciate german culture or germans to make the idiotic and hateful statements that you do.

[physics]

I think that Germany has taken the optimum responsibility for their crimes. The Germans born after WWII regret their countrie's acts, and did everything they could to reconcile with the world. In today's world, I only hate those Germans that fail to regret their countries atrocities. They are modern Nazis. I can't blame people who were not there during WWII.

[1.5 million]

Posted by Ossian:


Surely hating the Germans full stop, even in 2005, is falling into the same evil mental mind set as the Nazis; hating an entire ethnic or national group so much that you can hate one person for being a member of that group.

Speak for yourself.

Germany and Austria did'nt just produce evil men like Hitler and Himmler but also heavenly artists such as Mozart and Beethoven.

Who cares. They can stick it up their... you know what. Baring responsibility for 45 million people is beyond your moral interpretation of reality.

I assume then when the decendents of the inhabitants of the city of jericho go nuclear and when they incinerate each and every jew - including your innocent children - you would have to admit it was justified becuse Jews have proven themselves to be murderous people without redemption.

you need to attend humanity 101 classes I think. When Armenians speak as you do concerning Germans about Turks I tell them I am ashamed to think they are like me/one of us - a member of a group who has been the victim of such hateful inhumane generalizing attitudes - yet they have completely failed to understand the lessons and in fact have adopted the attitudes of those who victimized us - such a shame - such a waste.

[physics]

R u Armenian?

[1.5 million]

I think that Germany has taken the optimum responsibility for their crimes. The Germans born after WWII regret their countrie's acts, and did everything they could to reconcile with the world. In today's world, I only hate those Germans that fail to regret their countries atrocities. They are modern Nazis. I can't blame people who were not there during WWII.

Interesting - how do you think Armenians might feel when denial of the Armenian Genocide is both Turkish State policy - required teaching in theri schools - where Turkish kids are required to write essays denyng the Armenian genocide to graduate - and where regularly Turls sabotage and protest any attempts to recognize the genocide and instead repeat the racist propoganda used to incite hatred against Armenians in the first place...Likewise do you also hate members of other nationalities who deny the Holocaust?

I don't hate Turks BTW...nor do I hate (any) Germans - just for being German o turks just for being Turkish...and I don't mean to be harsh on you as I find your attitudes comendable really. I have Jewsish friends who still hate all things Germasn - just out of hand (and I can understand that even if I don't agree with it) - I have other Jewish friends (who ironically were much more directly affected during the Shoah) who are ambivilent towards Germans (but do fear/dislike neo-Nazis and modern anti-semites...)

[1.5 million]

R u Armenian?

in part yes - are you a physicist?

[physics]

Let me make it clear: I hate every single person who denies/doesn't regret the Holocaust.

I can't understand why you, as an Armenian, don't have a hostile attitude towards Turkey. They are very guilty for denying the genocide of Armenians. They are sick.

[physics]

R there good Germans today? Yes.
Would I interact with them? Yes.
How do I feel about German's who don't regret the Holocaust? I hate them.

It's simple.

German and Turkish policies are very different. Germans took responsibility. The Turks still promote denial and hate.

[1.5 million]

Let me make it clear: I hate every single person who denies/doesn't regret the Holocaust.

I can't understand why you, as an Armenian, don't have a hostile attitude towards Turkey. They are very guilty for denying the genocide of Armenians. They are sick.

I am glad that you understand our situation however it is just your point - the current generation of Turks did not commit the Genocide - how can we hold them guilty for the sins of their grandfatthers and fathers etc. Furthmore - more then not - there is just total ignorance on the par of todays Turks about anything that happened during this period and the Turkish government feeds them a line that Armenian "allegations" as they call them are just false and part of a plot by western Imperialists to undermine Turkey (in a nutshell - of course a great deal more can e said)...what is disturbing however is both the Turkish Government's tradition/perpetuation of denial (and a good question is would Germany be any different if not forced? One would hope so - a matter of societly maturity...but not such an easy thing - to admit to being so henious eh?) - and another great pain for us is that there are many Turks who know some things - yet their nationalist zealotry is such that they still find any excuse and any argument to deny and to promote the innocene of their nation/people. Of course at times these people and these things make my blood biol - even to the point where i know I could kill if I had the oppurtunity...but ultimatly I can forgive - as these are clearly lesser beings (not because they are Turkish - but because they are underveloped individual humans)....

I don't wish to make an issue of this here and now - but many Armenians feel animosity towards Jews bacause of the official Israeli denial of the Armenian Genocide and that among many Jews and Jewish organizations. I understrand these things (both why certain positions have been taken and why Armenians are upset) - though believe such things (denial of genocide) are shameful - though I also understand that Jews who are truly aware of the events of the Armenian Genocide do not deny and that there is great mutual sympathy and understanding between our peoples (and I have several Jewish friends who are actively working towards Armenain Genocide recognition within the Jewish community)...in fact my defensivesness of Jewish positions and my hard core oppositition to anti-semetic Armenians (every group has them...sadly) and their hateful statements has often netted me with being accused of being a Jew who is infiltrating Armenian forums...lol. I like to say that - "No I am not a Jew - but I have no problem being called a Jew lover" :D

[physics]

You or Armenians can't hold today's Turks responsible for their past crimes. However, you have the right to blame today's Turks and demand appologies and proper reconciliation.

It doesn't matter how German's accepted responsibility, the fact is that they finally did. Whether they were pressured or did it out of true kindness isn't too important. Results are important.

Also, I don't understand what Israel or some Jews gain from denying the Armenian genocide.

If you present me with plausible facts, such as the Armenian genocide, then I believe it.

The genocide deniers simply play games of politics, and are often influenced by stupid prapoganda.

[1.5 million]

Thank you for your words physics - I agree with all of your points.

Unfortunatly recognition of the Armenian Genocide (by all sorts) has been captured by politics and national (and corporate) self-interests since shortly after the end of WWI. There is an incredible body of eyewitness evidence, even from nuetral and pro-Turk sources (much from Turks themselves even) - however the events imediatly after the war - including the sucess of Ataturk (long story if you don't know it) and the post war competition among the Etente powers for (colonial) influence, control and commerical (oil and trade) concessions after the war combined to allow the human rights issues from the first world war to be caste aside. This was very opposite to the Jewish experience during/after WWII - where few outside of Germany/German controlled areas really fully understood the magnitude of what was occuring - the world was very aware and very outraged concerning the slaughter that occured to the Armenians...however afterword all of the promisses to make things right by the Armenians and punish the Turks was forgotten due to the perception of overiding national interests - including in almsot every relevant nation a turn over of governments that had a much greater focus on national interests and less on human rights. A very interesting and tragic story - and one (due to the contiued denial and the fact that Western nations for the most part continue to ignore and sidestep this issue and the promisses made...) that weighs heavy on Armenians to this day....as Jews who have had similar experiences - either themselves or with their families can empathyze with...

[physics]

The aftermaths of the Jewish and Armenian genocide were different.

The Jews finally established a homeland, and in general, Israel have been prospering since 1948. So prosperity and happiness definitely healed some of th e wounds from the Holocaust.

The Armenians however did not see improvement of life in their country after their genocide. Under Soviet control, that was impossible. It is a very sad story. I wish them the best of luck in recovering and having the best prosperity in their country's history.

[Mil]

Posted by Physics:


The Armenians however did not see improvement of life in their country after their genocide. Under Soviet control, that was impossible. It is a very sad story. I wish them the best of luck in recovering and having the best prosperity in their country's history

Armenians made it very big in USSR. There were Armenians involved in every sphere of Soviet life from Stalin's cronies, to WWII heros, to actors, sport-figures, movie-stars, crime-bosses, cat-lovers, chess-players, wine-makers, airplane designers (MIG), scientists......

[physics]

I was born in the Soviet Union.

In a sense, many people including Armenians had unprecedented success during the Soviet Union era. But let's be realistic, capitalistic prosperity is the best and most enjoyable.

[Mil]

Me, you agree - though physics doesn't pay that much. :)

[1.5 million]

I think it is clear that both Armenians and Jews have prospered anywhere they have been allowed to (pretty much everywhere). The Armenian SSR and Soviet Armenians were certainly relatively prosperous, favoured (by the Russians) and pretty much were left to regulate their own affairs (religion is an example). However this was all relative. However only a portion of Anatolian Armenians survivors of the Genocide ended up in Armenian SSR proper - with many escaping to nearby Middle Eastern areas freed of Ottoman Control and others manageing to escape to the West - France and USA being primary destinations...Russia proper as well...and of course in the USSR many Armenians from Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan emmigrated to Moscow and such for broader oppurtunities - the Armenian composer Aram Kathchurian is a famous example of this. Being decended of Armenians from Anatolia (Istanbul and Divrik - near Sivas) - I only have a tenuous connection with Armenia proper. This connection varies among Western Armenians for a variety of reasons (having been within the USSR versus its own nations is at least partially responsible for this) - unlike the very strong connections with most all Jews to Israel - which is really something commendable and which Armenians need to more emulate.. I think they are taking steps in that direction - with recent moves to relax dual citizenship requirements and accepting citizenship from the Diaspora - however there is a grreat deal of caution from both sides. Armenians from Armenia are concerned to not become secondary in their own nation - due to greater wealth and such in Diaspora and Diasporan Armenians have great reservation due to corruption related issues...and of course there is a bit of a cultural gap (even slight language differences) and other issues as well.

[The Negotiator]

Ive never met an Armenian, Im not so sure about the genocide that was commited against them, So cant answer your question.

[KettleWhistle]

I think it is clear that both Armenians and Jews have prospered anywhere they have been allowed to (pretty much everywhere). The Armenian SSR and Soviet Armenians were certainly relatively prosperous, favoured (by the Russians) and pretty much were left to regulate their own affairs (religion is an example).

This is for the large part a misconception. Jews have not prospered everywhere, not even close. In the Eastern Europe they were some of poorest until after WWII, and at that time Jewish population shrank significantly.

Nor is it the case that Armenians were that well-off, or favored by the Russians during the Soviet times. Armenia was not that great of a place, and like most of the nearby areas, it was poorly financed, and poorly supplied. Some Soviet Armenians, particularly those who lived in big Russian cities, were well-off, but most of those living in Armenia weren't even close.

[1.5 million]

My caveat was - "When allowed to". Obviously in areas where they were severly repressed and restricted things were not so good. Anyway - a really amazingly parallel (and often tragic) journey our two peoples have had in a great many respects...and as we are both peoples who are the descendents of those who have endured the worst of persecutions and trial by fire - it is no wonder that we are both so capable and undaunted by much of anything...(but bot peoples have such an ingrained worry and expectation for complete and utter disaster complex...)

[1.5 million]

Nor is it the case that Armenians were that well-off, or favored by the Russians during the Soviet times. Armenia was not that great of a place, and like most of the nearby areas, it was poorly financed, and poorly supplied. Some Soviet Armenians, particularly those who lived in big Russian cities, were well-off, but most of those living in Armenia weren't even close.

I respectfully disagree on all counts. Armenians were clearly a favored group by the Russians - both in the central (relative) "hands off" approach to the republic...and in regards to the high degree of integration into Russian life (and specifically acceptance into profesional fields - science, engineering, military etc) - particularly compared to any other minority group (many/most of whom were specifically denied this type of access - at least for the higher echelons - some exceptions of course...).

[physics]

It is true that under Soviet Union regime, Jews and Armenians found success in unprecedented magnitude. However, the Russification aspect was negative. For example, Jews were listed as Jews by nationality in their passports, yet there was complete lack of any Jewish religion and culture during Soviet times. Jews didn't know what their religion and culture was all about.

All ethnic groups submited to russification. Since the collapse, all these groups have definitely taken strong steps to restore their unique culture.

The collpase of the U.S.S.R. only created disaster, and many Jews were fortunate enough to move to Israel.

[KettleWhistle]

What boloney! Few Jews succeeded under the Russians, while most were discriminated in access to education, access to good jobs, they were passed for promotions at work because they were Jews, etc. My grandparents had to change their names to Russian names, so that my parents would be admitted to college.

The lack of religious life was not a problem. The attempts to Russify Jews by wiping out the identity and secular values was a huge problem. Most Soviet Jews couldn't care less about religion, but it did matter when a person named Boruh had to goyify his name into Boris in order to get a job. That's for the very least degrading, and no amount of religious fairy-tails can take that away.

As for the collapse of the evil empire, what exactly was disasterous? Sure it was bad for the Russkies, but they deserve that, and then some. For the Jews, it was actually good, because they could leave that rotten country. And even the morons that stayed are not subjected to the same amount of either institutionalized or popular anti-Semitism, especially in the places that are no longer under the Russian control.

[physics]

Yes, there was no doubt that Jews faced discrimmination in Soviet Union. But it's also true that many Jews held prominent positions such as in science and technology. However, as you mentioned,these Jews had to russify themselves to hide any trace of Jewish identity.


As for the collapse of the evil empire, what exactly was disasterous? Sure it was bad for the Russkies, but they deserve that, and then some. For the Jews, it was actually good, because they could leave that rotten country.

The collapse was good in the sense that it opened up new freedoms. However it was also bad because Jews lost their livelihoods in Soviet Union and would have to establish new lives in other countries. That was an extreme difficulty. Those that immigrated to Israel had no knowledge of Hebrew. Although many were well educated, they could not find decent jobs and had to work as unskilled laborers. It was a damn shame that former architects, doctors, engineers had to sweep the streets and work in construction. For adults, building a new life is difficult. Only the kids had better futures.

And those Jews that immigrated to U.S.A also found similar difficulties because they lacked knowledge in English.

[physics]

The problem with the collapse of Soviet Union was that it essentially destroyed the livelihood of all its people. All of the republics split, and the bond that held together the U.S.S.R broke. Each republic felt the consequence. The decades of work and dedication of its people meant nothing. It was a new start.

Thankfully, the Jews had the chance to leave and not put up with the Soviet Union anymore.

[KettleWhistle]

Yes, there was no doubt that Jews faced discrimmination in Soviet Union. But it's also true that many Jews held prominent positions such as in science and technology. However, as you mentioned,these Jews had to russify themselves to hide any trace of Jewish identity.
You make it sound as if the majority of Jews were in that situation. And that's not even close to the true conditions of the Soviet Jewry. Not to mention that those who did get into prominent positions in whatever fields, had to work at least 10 times as hard as anyone else, and still were more often than not scapegoated for whatever went wrong.

The collapse was good in the sense that it opened up new freedoms. However it was also bad because Jews lost their livelihoods in Soviet Union and would have to establish new lives in other countries. That was an extreme difficulty. Those that immigrated to Israel had no knowledge of Hebrew. Although many were well educated, they could not find decent jobs and had to work as unskilled laborers. It was a damn shame that former architects, doctors, engineers had to sweep the streets and work in construction. For adults, building a new life is difficult. Only the kids had better futures.

And those Jews that immigrated to U.S.A also found similar difficulties because they lacked knowledge in English.
My family immigrated to the States eleven years ago. So I'm well-aware of the various hardships, and I wrote about those in several other threads on IsraelForum. But that said, vast majority of the FSU Jews are better-off where they landed, and I have no regrets about the fall of the Evil Empire, which USSR most certainly was. I had no love for that country when I lived there, and I don't have a good thing to say about Russia now. This was the country that discriminated against Jews, promoted anti-Semitism, and supported (and still supports) Arabs against Israel. Should I feel sorry for the citizens of those countries for living in the mess they made for themselves? I think not, and in all honesty, I can't relate to the sentimentality you seem to feel for that country.

[minusthejihad]

But that said, vast majority of the FSU Jews are better-off where they landed, and I have no regrets about the fall of the Evil Empire, which USSR most certainly was. I had no love for that country when I lived there, and I don't have a good thing to say about Russia now. This was the country that discriminated against Jews, promoted anti-Semitism, and supported (and still supports) Arabs against Israel. Should I feel sorry for the citizens of those countries for living in the mess they made for themselves? I think not, and in all honesty, I can't relate to the sentimentality you seem to feel for that country.

I second that sentiment.

[physics]

The Soviet Union experience is a familiar one for me and my family. We moved from there to Israel, and then from Israel to the U.S.A. What you say about the conditions is all true. I was just pointing out that the collapse created extreme hardships for everyone, but obviously you and I are most concerned about Jews' experience. Yes, it is great that Jews finally left the U.S.S.R and now the Russians are dealing with the mess they created in the first place.

Yeaa, we Jews had enough of in U.S.S.R, and finally we can enjoy life. It's been only about 14-15 years since the new era.

[physics]

Soviet Jews were completely ignorant of English and Hebrew. So it was very frustrating when masses arrived in Israel and U.S.A with lack of the languages and had to establish new lives. Today, the Russian language for Soviet Jews has no practical use. It's only used at home, and not really for business or anything else. Soviet Jews were equipped with only one language that was only useful in Russia. This strong dependence on Russian language was detrimental.

[minusthejihad]

Soviet Jews were completely ignorant of English and Hebrew. So it was very frustrating when masses arrived in Israel and U.S.A with lack of the languages and had to establish new lives. Today, the Russian language for Soviet Jews has no practical use. It's only used at home, and not really for business or anything else. Soviet Jews were equipped with only one language that was only useful in Russia. This strong dependence on Russian language was detrimental.

Unless you live & work in Brooklyn!

[physics]

Well, Brooklyn is one of the many ghettos in NYC where people fail to assimilate into American culture, or at least learn the language.

I think that many Soviet Jews, including those in Brooklyn, are hard-working and up for challenges.

[minusthejihad]

Well, Brooklyn is one of the many ghettos in NYC where people fail to assimilate into American culture, or at least learn the language.

I think that many Soviet Jews, including those in Brooklyn, are hard-working and up for challenges.

I wouldn't go as far as calling Brooklyn a ghetto. It's more like a fossil record of the beggings of the new world. I hope it stays the same forever!

[KettleWhistle]

I found Brooklyn to be outright disgusting when I was there. It was filthy dirty, especially the Brighton Beach area, the people in a couple "Russian" stores there were outright rude and crass.

[Mediocrates]

Well, Brooklyn is one of the many ghettos in NYC where people fail to assimilate into American culture, or at least learn the language.




Whatever do you mean? I lived in Flushing. I don't understand why I don't speak Korean, given that everything there is. But I wouldn't call them unassimilated. It's never been the American experience the anyone's first immigrant population 'assimilates' completely. Their children do though.

[physics]

NYC is full of ethnic ghettos. It's only good for those who reside in these ghettos. I wouldn't spend too much time there. People are supposed to leave as soon as they can. I find most of the NYC life disgusting. There are only a few nice and affluent places there.

[physics]

Who cares about assimilating into American culture? the only important thing in America is to make money and live well. Whether you act completely American or Russian or Israeli doesn't matter. Americans will simply respect you for your accomplishments and skills in money making. The problem with the ghettos in NYC is that there aren't too many respectable people there.

[minusthejihad]

Agree to disagree? I can't visit New York without visiting Brooklyn, several different areas in fact. My aunt lives in Brooklyn, near Brighton Beach in the Turkish area. Its amazing to see so many cultures preserving their traditions yet getting along like Americans. Its a very amazing place and I could only wish that other places like it around the rest of the Western World would follow suit. It actually makes me sad to see too American Jews bash Brooklyn so. Sad to see.

[Mediocrates]

NYC is full of ethnic ghettos. It's only good for those who reside in these ghettos. I wouldn't spend too much time there. People are supposed to leave as soon as they can. I find most of the NYC life disgusting. There are only a few nice and affluent places there.


Where do you live? Sell me your house?

[physics]

Give me a break, areas like Brooklyn are ethnic ghettos. I simply don't like it. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. It's not an affluent place. What's so enjoyable there?

[physics]

I live in a suburb in NY. We have several cities around me where the population are mostly Jewish. So we have large Jewish communities here. What's nicer, a suburban community or a city-slum community?

[physics]

I simply wouldn't live in Brooklyn or other similar areas in NYC. Many people who live there would probably run if they had the chance. C'mon face reality.

[Mediocrates]

I simply wouldn't live in Brooklyn or other similar areas in NYC. Many people who live there would probably run if they had the chance. C'mon face reality.


Oh I wouldn't move back to most of the outerboroughs for sure. East New York, Coney Island, most of Queens, SI. But everything's not a shambles. Too bad NYC is becoming a place for very rich and very poor. It's the middle class regardless of ethnicity that's leaving.

[Mediocrates]

I simply wouldn't live in Brooklyn or other similar areas in NYC. Many people who live there would probably run if they had the chance. C'mon face reality.


Not Brooklyn Heights? Downtown Brooklyn around the Federal court? Even Sheepshead is pretty nice. Oh well to each their own.

[minusthejihad]

Give me a break, areas like Brooklyn are ethnic ghettos. I simply don't like it. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. It's not an affluent place. What's so enjoyable there?

I live in West Bloomfield, MI, one of the most affluent Jewish areas in the world. It's completely boring and dull. Except for putting your kids in school here, you could die from boredom and inactivity. Brooklyn is tyte!

Brooklyn, Brooklyn as a hell of a town! New York is Up, but I'm Brooklyn Down! - Beasties

Some of America's best entertainment, music, ideas, talent, etc., came from that place. It should be a national landmark!

[Mediocrates]

C'mon face reality.

I moved away in 96 so you wouldn't have had to twist my arm back then. But that was just me.

[Mediocrates]

And I knew a guy lived in Bowery who fell off his front porch slipping on a crack vial and broke his leg. But it turned out to be his crack vial - so karma won that one.

[genghis_tom]

Give me a break, areas like Brooklyn are ethnic ghettos. I simply don't like it. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. It's not an affluent place. What's so enjoyable there?
I'll take culture over affluence any day of the week. Are you trying to say that affluence=joy?

[Mediocrates]

When we lived with the Koreans and Afghans in Flushing - my son who was a toddler at the time had black straight hair black eyes and olive-ish colored skin. All the old Korean ladies used to come up to us and thank us for adopting a Korean child. When we went to visit people on E68 in Manhattan they would congratulate us for adopting a native American baby.

[physics]

I simply wouldn't live in the city period. I don't like the city life. Traffic, noise, pollution, crowding, etc. Suburban life is enjoyable. The middle class is leaving because they have the option for better places.

[physics]

Okay, I'll take a "boring" suburban life over an "exciting" city life anytime.

[Mediocrates]

I simply wouldn't live in the city period. I don't like the city life. Traffic, noise, pollution, crowding, etc. Suburban life is enjoyable. The middle class is leaving because they have the option for better places.


Ahh now I see. thanks. I am tired of suburban/exurban living and in a few more years it will be time to pull up the yurts and move to someplace citified, if it's affordable.

Cmon bubble, burst already.

[minusthejihad]

I simply wouldn't live in the city period. I don't like the city life. Traffic, noise, pollution, crowding, etc. Suburban life is enjoyable. The middle class is leaving because they have the option for better places.

New York has a creative energy that I have never experienced in any other place in the world. So you don't like it there, that's just you. I think the Burbs are the worst thing to ever happen to American life and I live in one, but thats because Detroit y is a cr4p hole.

[physics]

Instead of living in an "exciting" place, it's better to live in a quite place and have the option to visit exciting places. If your'e bored in your suburbs, then take some vacations around the world. Sounds good?

[Mediocrates]

I would like to live somewhere they at least didn't rollup the sidewalks at 9pm. Starbucks shuts at 10 and the most crowded place on a Saturday night is blockbuster.

[physics]

Where do you think all those entertainers that came from NYC live now?

IN NICE QUITE SUBURBS OR IN REALLY EXPENSIVE MANHATTAN SUITES.

[physics]

Take a nice trip to Israel. Once you visit all of the exciting places there, you can continue your little world tour.

[genghis_tom]

In my town, you can count the Starbuckses on one hand. (provided that hand has been badly mangled in an industrial accident)
It's boring to the point that a putt-putt place is on the roadmap! But I enjoy it. If only it was green like back east...

[minusthejihad]

Instead of living in an "exciting" place, it's better to live in a quite place and have the option to visit exciting places. If your'e bored in your suburbs, then take some vacations around the world. Sounds good?

Um, I do. I'm on vacation at least two months a year and visit New York at least once a year. I'm planning on moving to Downtown CHicago next year until we have kids, then probably back to the boring life around you old timers again. But as Medio says, after 9 O'clock, its lock-down. For a night-owl like me, I'd like to at least be able to find what I need at any time.

[genghis_tom]

Instead of living in an "exciting" place, it's better to live in a quite place and have the option to visit exciting places. If your'e bored in your suburbs, then take some vacations around the world. Sounds good?
I vacation to be excited, but not by the affluence and "fun". I thoroughly enjoy travel for the historical and cultural value.
On one particular trip, Delta had a quote pop up between the map/progress of the plane that said, "Travel should broaden the mind, not merely lengthen the conversation."

[physics]

See, you can't deny the reality. The best place to raise kids is in suburbs and not cities.

[physics]

I fully agree with you. Travel is enjoyable because of historical and cultural value. It's also exciting to see different things every once in a while. NY is exciting for tourists. But living and visiting are very different. It's best to live in a quite place and have chances to visit other places. If you live in NY, you can feel the positive things, but you can't ever escape the negative atmosphere.

[minusthejihad]

See, you can't deny the reality. The best place to raise kids is in suburbs and not cities.

That's still an opinion and not fact. The only reason I will raise my kids in the burbs is because our families live in the Detroit burbs and there is no "city" option in Michigan. I have many friends who grew up in cities like Chicago and New York and they turned out far more motivated and interesting than my boring narrow minded, suburban paranoid raised friends.

[physics]

Ok...but how do you think a child will feel if he's the only white kid among 1000 black kids. That's the situation in NYC schools for example. It simply isn't healthy. Anyways, a talented kid can succedd anywhere, but a suburban atmosphere is obviously better.

[physics]

They turned out to be more motivated and interesting than my boring narrow minded, suburban paranoid raised friends.

Think about why the city kids are motivated? they yearned for some of the things that the suburban kids had, like nice houses instead of some city apartments. But I would agree that many suburban kids are just idiots.

[Mediocrates]

In my town, you can count the Starbuckses on one hand. (provided that hand has been badly mangled in an industrial accident)
It's boring to the point that a putt-putt place is on the roadmap! But I enjoy it. If only it was green like back east...


Little known North Carolina facts:

There's a town called Lizard Lick
Greensboro prescribes more ED drugs than any other place in America
Asheville has been in the top 10 zipcodes of people who just don't file tax returns for the last 15 years running
There is one meth lab for every 2000 people
Goldsboro is the site of the only Thermonuclear bomb that was ever lost on American soil and never recovered
We have more hogs than people
Most golf courses per person in the US
Most shipwrecks anywhere in North America
All the beavers were imported from Canada
Mt. Mitchell, highest mountain east of the Mississippi and named after the guy who charted it then fell to his death
Only one of the original 13 colonies not settled by colonists but by people who left other colonies
Raleigh, the capital was built from scratch in the one place all of the delegates could agree they didn't wanted it to be built in, as punishment for not agreeing to a site
The State Dance, is the Shag
Wake Forest University is not in Wake Forest but in Winston-Salem 90 miles away
The town of Wendell (pronounced Wenn-Dell) is named after Oliver Wendel Holmes (pronounced winDull).
17th Century English, complete with English accent is still spoken here in Abermarle
The mayor of Raleigh bribed Sherman's army in the Civil War not to burn the city down which is why it's rather old and broken down today.

[minusthejihad]

Ok...but how do you think a child will feel if he's the only white kid among 1000 black kids. That's the situation in NYC schools for example. It simply isn't healthy. Anyways, a talented kid can succedd anywhere, but a suburban atmosphere is obviously better.

I went to a very diverse school in Southfield, MI and I was very happy there. When my parents moved to WB, it was nothing but JAPS and I found it empty of virtues and values and more like an episode of 90210. It sucked! I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone's kids.

[Mediocrates]

My sons' hs is roughly 60% black. In the burbs in the best district in the state.

[physics]

Yes, I know that most suburban kids are spoiled idiots. I went to high school with such kids and finished recently. But there were also many bright kids. It's up to the student which path he/she takes.

[minusthejihad]

Yes, I know that most suburban kids are spoiled idiots. I went to high school with such kids and finished recently. But there were also many bright kids. It's up to the student which path he/she takes.

I'd say it's more up to the parents rather than the kid. For me, there was never an option to go to college or not, it was more like "what school". Only after I entered the real world that I met other young adults who's parents did not expect them to go to college. I never had a choice and thats how parents should act.

I thought you were an old timer? Ho wold are you?

[physics]

it was nothing but JAPS and I found it empty of virtues and values and more like an episode of 90210

I fully agree with you. That's why many Foreigners are much better people than suburban Americans. Both accomplish success, but the foreigners have values and virtues.

[physics]

I am college aged. :cool:

You sound middle aged.

[minusthejihad]

I fully agree with you. That's why many Foreigners are much better people than suburban Americans. Both accomplish success, but the foreigners have values and virtues.

Nah, plenty of American natives have the things you described and I know many foreigners who are super shady. Best not to stereotype at all. It all depends on a person, how they were raised, and what they believe and value.

[minusthejihad]

I am college aged. :cool:

You sound middle aged.

30 yrs baby!

[Mira]

Ahh now I see. thanks. I am tired of suburban/exurban living and in a few more years it will be time to pull up the yurts and move to someplace citified, if it's affordable.

Cmon bubble, burst already.

You could probably afford Phili right now. It's not a bad city, despite the reputation.

[Mira]

New York has a creative energy that I have never experienced in any other place in the world. So you don't like it there, that's just you. I think the Burbs are the worst thing to ever happen to American life and I live in one, but thats because Detroit y is a cr4p hole.

Basically you have NY if you can afford it, San Francisco (if you can afford it and you have a high tolerance for passive-aggressive rich leftists), and Chicago...if you can handle the weather. The people are the most interesting in NY and the most down to earth in Chicago. I think Chicago has the best urban architecture and San Francisco has the best natural beauty and the architecture is also very good in SF too.

BTW, I don't know if you are into this sort of thing, but did you ever go to the Detroit Electronic Music Conference? One of the best events I've been to.

[genghis_tom]

How's the situation in Washington, DC?

[Mira]

How's the situation in Washington, DC?

Washington DC is also a great city. Architecture is interesting, good food, and if you are interested in politics, then it's obviously the place to be, though it can be kind of creepy that way too. I got into a bar fight (OMG :rolleyes: ) with the girlfriend of a guy who was a lobbyist for the meat packing industry back when I was a vegetarian. BTW, she started it.

[genghis_tom]

It's also great when all those cherry trees blossom, too.

[Mira]

It's also great when all those cherry trees blossom, too.
yeah....seasons. You don't really get that where I am now (Palo Alto, CA).

[genghis_tom]

I got into a bar fight (OMG :rolleyes: ) with the girlfriend of a guy who was a lobbyist for the meat packing industry back when I was a vegetarian. BTW, she started it.
Did you win?

[Mediocrates]

You could probably afford Phili right now. It's not a bad city, despite the reputation.


You think? Have to add it to the list of non F350 Redneck locales to consider.

(Actually thinking of Georgetown right now)

[Mediocrates]

Charlotte's not bad - relatively speaking. The Jewish community there is very strong. Also Nashville has a very good, strong, motivated and financially generous Jewish community (and typically expensive).

Stay the hell out of Richmond VA. Add to that Houston, Dallas, Tulsa. Run do not walk, to the exits.

[genghis_tom]

yeah....seasons. You don't really get that where I am now (Palo Alto, CA).
But that's a better deal than the seasons in Seattle...Winter is the long, cold, dark and everything else is rain. I'd live there if there was more than a week of total sunshine.

[Mediocrates]

We have 4 full seasons in Central-Eastern North Carolina:


Ice
Tornadoes
July
Hurricanes
This time of year we have A/C and the heat on in the same day, plus rain, fog, sleet and thunderstorms.

[Mira]

Did you win?I don't know. The girl drank too much and became belligerent. She kept yelling, "Eat meat, bastards!" So I shouted back, "Shut up, you stupid heifer!" Then she threw her drink on me and her boyfriend took her out of the bar before I could work my kung fu. :p

[Mira]

You think? Have to add it to the list of non F350 Redneck locales to consider.

(Actually thinking of Georgetown right now)

Check it out. Good Jewish community too. Very well established. I was there for the anniversary of the death of R. Schneerson. Elie Wiesel was the main speaker for the event. He came in from NY along with a couple thousand other hasids from the Mid-Atlantic / NY area. The fact that they decided to hold the event in Philadelphia says something about the strength of the community there. Decent culture. Walking city. Architecure is good and a lot of the city has been cleaned up, but it's still on a block by block basis because of local politics. Close to both DC and Manhattan, but has something of an inferiority complex because it lives in the shadows of both.

Georgetown, DC?

[Mira]

Charlotte's not bad - relatively speaking. The Jewish community there is very strong. Also Nashville has a very good, strong, motivated and financially generous Jewish community (and typically expensive).

Stay the hell out of Richmond VA. Add to that Houston, Dallas, Tulsa. Run do not walk, to the exits.

I only drove trough Nashville, but I spent a few days in Knoxville. They are trying to trun the downtown area around there. I've heard that Charlotte is nice. I also heard good things about Dallas (sort of the Los Angeles of Texas, if you consider that a good thing), but I agree that Houston is one to avoid. The place has absolutely no urban planning. Pornography shops next to ice cream parlors next to elementry schools and walled off residential sub-divisions. Crazy!

[Mira]

But that's a better deal than the seasons in Seattle...Winter is the long, cold, dark and everything else is rain. I'd live there if there was more than a week of total sunshine.

I know, it's too bad because it's a really beautiful city. Then again, I'm not sure the city could handle too many more X-pats from the California Bay Area. At least that's what I'm told by all of the former Bay Area residents who live there now. ;)

[Mediocrates]

I don't know. The girl drank too much and became belligerent. She kept yelling, "Eat meat, bastards!" So I shouted back, "Shut up, you stupid heifer!" Then she threw her drink on me and her boyfriend took her out of the bar before I could work my kung fu. :p


Girlfights are hawt.

[Mira]

cockfights are better.

[Mercury]

You could probably afford Phili right now. It's not a bad city, despite the reputation.

Sure ;) In fact I would suggest to all israelis to visit it. Afterwards they'll realize how exagerated is their fear of suicide bombers.

[Mediocrates]

We had another cross burning two nights ago - one county away. Big freakin deal.

[minusthejihad]

Basically you have NY if you can afford it, San Francisco (if you can afford it and you have a high tolerance for passive-aggressive rich leftists), and Chicago...if you can handle the weather. The people are the most interesting in NY and the most down to earth in Chicago. I think Chicago has the best urban architecture and San Francisco has the best natural beauty and the architecture is also very good in SF too.

BTW, I don't know if you are into this sort of thing, but did you ever go to the Detroit Electronic Music Conference? One of the best events I've been to.

Of course, but back when it began and had more hip-hop. I hate techno, sorry. Like Downtempo, some house, intelligent dance music, etc. I totally agree with the rest of your post. Will be in Chicago for New Years!