what do you israelians and diaspora jews think of this? [Archive]

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atricnorth

11-28-2005, 09:23 AM

check this out

i find this shocking

jews embracing the god of the mecca? WTH (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1132475618729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

KettleWhistle

11-28-2005, 09:44 AM

First off, it's "Israeli," not "isralian." And yes, there are loons who believe nonsense like this: "The hardest task for me was Shabbat, as I was raised to believe that a Jew who doesn't observe Shabbat is no longer a Jew." Sometimes they convert out. Good riddance.

Toga

11-28-2005, 09:53 AM

check this out

i find this shocking

jews embracing the god of the mecca? WTH (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1132475618729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Shocking? LOL! We have always had mad, delusional, nutty Jews. What do you think we don't have bad apples? We do! In addition, the Jews featured in that article had been featured before. It is another sensational, dumb piece. There are maybe 5-10 Jews who went crazy in Israel. Apparently, Jpost.com wants to increase its readership and there is no better way to do it than to throw a few twisted Jews at us.

Aviva

11-28-2005, 09:54 AM

Aisha was formerly known as Rebecca. Half British and half Polish, she converted to Islam after she married a man of Pakistani origin. But by no means, she hastily adds, did she decide to convert because she felt forced to.

Hmmm. That says it all, doesn't it.

atricnorth

11-28-2005, 10:03 AM

i guess i was shocked cos i didn't expect israelis to become converts.

sad

true but one family had 5 children, does that mean anything to you?

furthermore, orthodox jews have more children than secular

if these guys become muslims, i would be concern for the next generation

but that's my own opinion

Womble

11-28-2005, 10:07 AM

Nothing to be shocked about. Some convert in, some convert out.

The Muslim religion is not without appeal, especially for a Jewish person because of certain similarities. Plus Islam is an agressively prozelityzing religion, with a lot of resources and efforts invested into attracting converts. Plus Islam is in the spotlight these days, it's a political hot potato, its fashionable in some intellectual circles (you know, the ones who were into Communism during the last season). Naturally, many do convert.

Keep in mind, though, that such conversion is often strictly formal and superficial. A girl who used to be my student in a Jewish school back in Belarus met an Arab guy (a great guy, I must say, I've met him) in Israel and converted to Islam in order to marry him (otherwise his family wouldn't agree). But when I met her on my cousin sister's wedding, she wore the skimpiest outfit of all the girls invited to the party. Both her and her husband live a perfectly secular lifestyle, and there isn't a grain of Muslim faith or observance in her.

atricnorth

11-28-2005, 10:10 AM

Toga

11-28-2005, 10:18 AM

ok, but i dont agree with her being a muslim

even though a not practicing one.

creeps me out

and i dont expect that to happen since i am a christian, furthermore even makes me worried

Both Christianity and Islam are missionary religions.

creeps me out

That demonstrates your intolerance and hatred which are very bad.

ygalg1

11-28-2005, 10:26 AM

Womble

11-28-2005, 10:34 AM

ok, but i dont agree with her being a muslim

even though a not practicing one.

creeps me out

and i dont expect that to happen since i am a christian, furthermore even makes me worried
Well I would also prefer her being Jewish- but as far as I am concerned, it's what she does and what kind of person she is that matters. She can be an African animist for all I care, as long as she is a good person.

Mil

11-28-2005, 10:51 AM

Posted by Womble:

She can be an African animist for all I care, as long as she is a good person.

As long as she does not engage in reading fictional-stories composed by one Rezun aka Suvorov - she is ok in my book :)

minusthejihad

11-28-2005, 11:44 AM

http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/06/mohammed-al-mahdi-37-formerly-named.html
file:///C:/WINDOWS/קובצי%20אינטרנט%20זמניים/Content.IE5/Q0O7QDWT/r1935253334%5B1%5D.jpg
Mahdi, who was born Jewish in Azerbaijan, immigrated to Israel and lived as a Jewish settler in the Jewish settlement of Kiryat Arba, near Hebron. Seven years ago he converted to Islam and now Al-Mahdi lives in the West Bank city of Hebron, married to a Muslim woman. Picture taken June 16. REUTERS/Nayef Hashlamoun

Azerbaijan
Religions: Muslim 93.4%, Russian Orthodox 2.5%, Armenian Orthodox 2.3%, other 1.8% (1995 est.)
note: religious affiliation is still nominal in Azerbaijan; percentages for actual practicing adherents are much lower
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/aj.html

That is where I am from. Compared to other Muslims, the Azerbaijanis treated the Jews very well, at least in Baku. The same can't be said for Armenians, but at least under Russian rule everyone had to get along. Many Safardi Jews I know from my home towm get along great with Muslim Azerbaijanis and you can barely tell them apart. This may explain why he converted, perhaps everyone he knew and related to were Muslims. But who cares, we don't hunt down and kill OUR apostates!

Ariksan

11-28-2005, 12:18 PM

How comes he can live in Hevron?!

ygalg1

11-28-2005, 01:31 PM

I have a relative whom drawn to messianic Jew (Christian missioner) he never was raised to Judaism and he immigrate to Israel 15 ago

I ones debate with him and he says to me well your chabad adherents can believe rabbi melovavtich is a messiah why can not I believe Jesus is...again Jews complicating themselves (those chabad) :mad:

The reason why itâ€™s happening Judaism its too heavy on them they want simpler system of believe

It does not take years of process to convert to Islam or to Christianity

Judaism is! Itâ€™s like the Special Forces or the Air force demands only for the best and that means if you cannot pass the difficulties you flunk out. And these that tried and failed find alternative in Reform Judaism, Christianity, and Islam cause they been acepted in open arms (they could plain follow the 7 laws of noah)

Why would Jews convert to another system of religion? Itâ€™s as similar for some Jews to live secular life and still persist Judaism to be the right religion (per our Jewish understanding) the laws seems too difficult to follow
some of the laws been followed without even need to take a glance to the scriptures cause there are laws are basic to human life and secular Jews taking participants on Jewish occasions as celebrating Jewish holydays eating kosher food etc

Muslima

11-28-2005, 02:05 PM

i guess i was shocked cos i didn't expect israelis to become converts.

H'mmmm, may i brag a little bit here if you don't all mind??

Of course i may;)

Nearly all chinese Muslims today are exjews.

Furthermore, most Jews on Arab lands converted to Islam. Islam has more in common with Judaism than it does with Christianity since the Christians do not regard the Old Testament laws as binding.

Rabbi Tovia Singer, (the chat show host,in New York) who specialises in bringing Jews back from Christianity and Islam says he has managed to get about 300 (in a space of some years) back from Christianity, but of the ones that go to Islam not one came back. '

Israeli's who convert to Islam face discrimination (see links below) . I don't like the sound of that! :((( That's not nice.

Most Chinese Jews convertd to Islam
http://faculty.rmwc.edu/fwebb/buck/eaandrijcic/chinesejews.html#jewishcommunity

Problems that face Israeli Jews who convert to Islam
Joseph Algazy, Haaretz 12 Dec. 2002
http://oznik.com/words/021212.html

Rabbi of Makhachkala synagogue embraced Islam (Russia)
http://eng.islam.ru/newmuslims/rabbi/

"Jewish Extremist" Converts To Islam
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/884/607.html

Anxiety in Israel as hundreds of Jews convert to Islam
(Agencies)7 June 2004

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2004/June/middleeast_June171.xml&section=middleeast&col

Toga

11-28-2005, 02:10 PM

Nearly all chinese Muslims today are exjews.

LOL! This is so funny! I am rolling on floor laughing!

http://www.faithfreedom.org/audio/Islamsnot4me.htm

Toga

11-28-2005, 02:15 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 02:18 PM

http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

Muslima

11-28-2005, 02:21 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 02:26 PM

LOL...hon, have you ever seen a Jew trying to market/sell Judaism to non-Jews? Sorry, hon, but Judaism is not a missionary religion.

Muslima

11-28-2005, 02:45 PM

sharonbn

11-28-2005, 02:51 PM

Toga, Muslima

You will either converse with each other in a respectful manner, or you will not talk here at all.

I have no desire to babysit either of you. If you think the other guy is talking nonsense/lies/insults/propoganda simply walk asay. it ain't worth it.

Muslima

11-28-2005, 02:58 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:04 PM

Muslima

11-28-2005, 03:05 PM

http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

This website is full of lies and propoganda, it twists the verses of the Quran and Hadeeth's. It is not a respectable source of information and has no credibility whatsoever.

Even the disclaimer on faithfreedom.com says, they can't list their sources for fear of them being killed. Is faithfreedom.com a pathetic joke or what? They are using the apostasy punishment as a cover for spreading lies and misinformation. Everyone knows, the apostasy punishment of death, is the most extreme interpretation and rarely carried out, the usual one is to give the apostate an indefinate period of time to dwell. Not many Muslims leave the faith, Islam has the lowest rate of numbers of all religions for people leaving , and the highest for people coming in.

By contrast, the links i posted for Jews converting to Islam were all RESPECTABLE sources, (Haaretz being one) .
Faithfreedom.com is to Islam what evilbible.com is to Judaism.

I wouldn't have a shred of respect for anyone who used evilbible.com to explain the Torah to me. That you consider this website worth propogating,.....well, enough said!

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:13 PM

Muslima

11-28-2005, 03:20 PM

LOL...

Excuse me Muslima but the only reason your kind loves the Haaretz is because many Jews consider it to be Al Ahram. THe Haarerz for the most part it is anti-Israel, ultra - leftist Israeli publication with a fringe Israeli following. Let me remind you, the followers of the Haaretz publication have no respect in Israel. What is funny that the Islamists like you are only interested in that publication because it is anti-Israel. It is also a secular publication and has very little religious interest.

When did i say i love Haaretz? and why did you assume i agree with it?

Whatever your personal thought's about it, it is a RESPECTABLE source of information. Not agreeing with it's political agenda doesn't make it not respectable.

I'm interested in a lot of other publications too, Haaretz is not high on my list of favourites.

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:25 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:29 PM

Do you like this webstie, Muslima?

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/assassins.htm

Muslima

11-28-2005, 03:34 PM

Of course the Haaretz is favored by your kind. It would have been shocking to assume otherwise. Any Jewish publication critical of Jews and Israel is loved by the anti-Semitic haters of Jews and Israel regardless how insignificant it is.

Look, you're not getting the point.

Haaretz, has a political slant that you may or may not like, however, IT DOES NOT PRINT OUT AND OUT LIES.

The 2 websites, you just showed me, where you get your Islamic info from are LIES. THEY LIE AND DISTORT. do you understand this? They don't criticise they LIE.

Criticism is fine, lying is not. These websites don't criticise they have an agenda to lie and distort. Just like evilbible.com has an agenda to distort and lie about The Torah.

You can't compare Haaretz, to faithfreedom.com or answering-islam.org and if you want Islamic information go to proper Islamic sites, credible ones.

sharonbn

11-28-2005, 03:35 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:38 PM

Look, you're not getting the point.

Haaretz, has a political slant that you may or may not like, however, IT DOES NOT PRINT OUT AND OUT LIES.

The 2 websites, you just showed me, where you get your Islamic info from are LIES. THEY LIE AND DISTORT. do you understand this? They don't criticise they LIE.

Criticism is fine, lying is not. These websites don't criticise they have an agenda to lie and distort. Just like evilbible.com has an agenda to distort and lie about The Torah.

You can't compare Haaretz, to faithfreedom.com or answering-islam.org and if you want Islamic information go to proper Islamic sites, credible ones.

Muslima, what is your agenda here? What are you trying to prove to Jews?

Also, Muslima, is criticism tolerated in the Muslim/Arab world? Can you please name me a Muslim/Arab land where it is tolerated?

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:40 PM

Haaretz is the third largest newspaper in Israel with near 10% of the Israeli newspaper market. Moreover, Its online edition has half a million page views a day, (more than three times the number of Maariv site) and its English-language site is the most popular Israeli foreign language online news source, with 700,000 daily page views.

Well, thank you! You have just proved my point. It is only 10% of the Israeli market but it is quoted by the enemies of Jews/Israel 95% of the time. Do they ever quote inn.com? Never!

Muslima

11-28-2005, 03:46 PM

Well, thank you! You have just proved my point. It is only 10% of the Israeli market but it is quoted by the enemies of Jews/Israel 95% of the time. Do they ever quote inn.com? Never!

OK tell me, what is inn.com?

and feel free to give me some of the sources that you like to refer to, if you think Haaretz is not up to standard,

what would you recommend i look at then?

sharonbn

11-28-2005, 03:50 PM

How about http://www.ynetnews.com
The largest Israeli newspaper by far, with daily circulation of 650,000 copies.

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:53 PM

Muslima

11-28-2005, 03:57 PM

You can watch direct news from Israel right here:

http://www.iba.org.il/

just click the second blue button on the right side.

also,

http://www.israelnationalnews.com

This will give a wide selection of everything:

http://www.israpundit.com

-------------

So, what is your agenda on this forum? What are you trying to prove to Jews?

Thanks for those links, Toga and Sharonb.

Toga, i do already know of them and many more,and peruse them often. Ynet is not too different to Haaretz.

No agenda Toga, and nothing to prove either.

Toga

11-28-2005, 03:58 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 04:01 PM

OK..but you quote the Haaretz and not IsraelNationalNews.com.

You prove my point again.

Now, can you please refer me to any publication similar to the Haaretz in any Arab state?

Mediocrates

11-28-2005, 04:05 PM

Every cult has followers. I could find an article about Baptist ministers who become Moonies. I personally know someone who has cycled through Judaism, Catholicism, Buddhism & Rehab. To each their own I suppose.

Muslima

11-28-2005, 04:06 PM

There are some article in the Haaretz that are pretty good but for the most part it is a government opposition publication. It has 2 Jewish reporters:

1. Amira Haas
2. Gideon Levi

who hate Israel more than any Arab enemy does. Amira Haas lives in Ramallah. How long do you think she would have lasted had she been Arab and criticized any Arab state or Palestinian Authority the way she has been attacking Israel?

That the Arab states suppress freedom of speech is not something to be proud of. It's a disgrace. But this is changing slowly. There are plenty of critics in Arab countries, and they should be able to criticise like Amira Haas, and Gideon Levi, without fear of being arrested.

I don't think its right to say Amira or Gideon hate Israel just because they criticise it. You are making the same mistake that the Arab dictators who ban free speech are making. Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. There are plenty of reporters in English, and other European papers who are critical of their countries, yet it doesn't mean they hate England/Europe.

Anyhow, goodnight for now Toga:)

Toga

11-28-2005, 04:07 PM

Thanks for those links, Toga and Sharonb.

Toga, i do already know of them and many more,and peruse them often. Ynet is not too different to Haaretz.

No agenda Toga, and nothing to prove either.

That is not true. You have an agenda and it is very transparent. You have your faith and we have ours. Yet, you come to us with your missionary beliefs.

Yet, you cannot answer a simple question. Look at the map of the Arab world. What do you see?

Muslima

11-28-2005, 04:08 PM

OK..but you quote the Haaretz and not IsraelNationalNews.com.

You prove my point again.

Now, can you please refer me to any publication similar to the Haaretz in any Arab state?

Yes, Al Jazeera is the biggest. It is the first main media to be critical openly.

It had a falling out with the Saudi's because it was critical of their rule. Same with Kuwait, but they still stuck to their gun's........

Things are changing Toga, soon you will see a Haaretz in the Mid EAst too:)

Mediocrates

11-28-2005, 04:09 PM

Toga

11-28-2005, 04:10 PM

That the Arab states suppress freedom of speech is not something to be proud of. It's a disgrace. But this changing slowly. There are plenty of critics in Arab countries, and they should be able to criticise like Amira Haas, and Gideon Levi, without fear of being arrested.

I don't think its right to say Amira or Gideon hate Israel just because they criticise it. You are making the same mistake that the Arab dictators who ban free speech are making. Criticising something doesn't mean you hate it. Plenty of reporters in English, and other European papers who are critical of their countries, yet it doesn't mean they hate England/Europe.

Anyhow, goodnight for now Toga:)

Everything is relative. If you can show me a single piece where Amira Haas said something decent about Israel I could change my mind. I have not read anything that favored Israel ever.

Toga

11-28-2005, 04:13 PM

Muslima, no tyrannical regime can survive if it allows free speech and assembly and all Arab states are tyrannical.

Iraq is a very good example. Take a look how they fight the change.

Muslima

11-28-2005, 04:14 PM

Everything is relative. If you can show me a single piece where Amira Haas said something decent about Israel I could change my mind. I have not read anything that favored Israel ever.

Look Toga, i'm not a huge fan of Amira Haas, but i do read Haaretz, like i read many other publications. I tend to read with an open mind.

Oh and what do you mean i didn't quote israelnationalnews instead of Haaretz? Simply because i had a link to hand from Haaretz about the subject in this thread (Jews converting to Islam), and not because i favour Haaretz. I have sometimes used INN for sources too.

Sheeeeeeeesh, for God's sake!

Mediocrates

11-28-2005, 04:15 PM

I'm waiting for an Arab press that isn't, frankly, retarded. Lots of press is state owned and operated across the world but the Arab press takes the cake for being so far over the top it's laughable. Arab newspapers line parakeet cages and whelping boxes the world over. It's prattling racist paranoid nonsense fit for fishwrap.

Muslima

11-28-2005, 04:17 PM

Haaretz is the first thing that a Palestinian dominated Israel would suppress. Opposition is verboten, opinions are handed out by the state. The editors of Haaretz would be quickly lined up and shot by a Fatah government over the Jews.

Yes, this thug like mentality is something that needs to change in the Arab countries. But moving too soon, too fast can be detrimental. Look what happened in Russia when the iron curtain fell! it was all corruption and chaos because it happened too soon.

Slowly but surely is the best way forward. Remember a lot of the Arab countries have only been modernised in the last 50 years or so.

Mediocrates

11-28-2005, 04:25 PM

So was China and Korea. It's really about having to develop an economy that makes something that has to build and train and develop and organize. Stripped away of all the politics, Arab countries strip wealth from the earth like Africa or the Caribbean or the rainforest. It leads down an ecnonomic and social black hole eventually.

Toga

11-28-2005, 04:28 PM

Yes, this thug like mentality is something that needs to change in the Arab countries. But moving too soon, too fast can be detrimental. Look what happened in Russia when the iron curtain fell! it was all corruption and chaos because it happened too soon.

Slowly but surely is the best way forward. Remember a lot of the Arab countries have only been modernised in the last 50 years or so.

So, why are you trying to sell us Islam if the Islamic/Arab world has so many problems and is so devastated?

ygalg1

11-28-2005, 09:16 PM

So, why are you trying to sell us Islam if the Islamic/Arab world has so many problems and is so devastated?
she was bragging Toga not selling
religion based on bragging not much of religion

Muslima

11-28-2005, 11:29 PM

she was bragging Toga not selling
religion based on bragging not much of religion

Thank you ygalg:)

No matter how i explain it, Toga won't understand, that's why i'm not going to even try .

Posting links about Islam, discussing Islam , clarifying points, defending your religion, showing pride in it, seems to mean proselytising to Toga!

Sigh!

ygalg1

11-29-2005, 12:47 AM

Thank you ygalg:)

No matter how i explain it, Toga won't understand, that's why i'm not going to even try .

Posting links about Islam, discussing Islam , clarifying points, defending your religion, showing pride in it, seems to mean proselytising to Toga!

Sigh!

That was on topic and you made your comment as it relate to you as well

It would be biased if to prevent a member from the opposite side of the barricade to give his/her view

And there was no invitation but showing us the estimation of situation as presented at your sources you gave

Proselytizing would be if you made a separate thread where you inviting us to Islam and giving us the status of reality on this (per your sources)

Anyway if you were Jewish and giving such comment as you did on Muslim forum some would ban you for it

Muslima

11-29-2005, 12:54 AM

That was on topic and you made your comment as it relate to you as well

It would be biased if to prevent a member from the opposite side of the barricade to give his/her view

And there was no invitation but showing us the estimation of situation as presented at your sources you gave

Proselytizing would be if you made a separate thread where you inviting us to Islam and giving us the status of reality on this (per your sources)

Anyway if you were Jewish and giving such comment as you did on Muslim forum some would ban you for it

On Arab political sites or Islamic forums, they do not have a problem with Jews and Christians who discuss their faith, because they consider you People of the Book. Nobody would ban you for discussing Judaism at Alsaha.com or any Islamic site.

The internet ARab groups are usually run by people who want freedom of speech, hence they respect the rights of others to get their view across no matter how much they may disagree with it.

I'm talking about sites like this, not the ones run by extremist's.

ygalg1

11-29-2005, 01:15 AM

On Arab political sites or Islamic forums, they do not have a problem with Jews and Christians who discuss their faith, because they consider you People of the Book. Nobody would ban you for discussing Judaism at Alsaha.com or any Islamic site.

The internet ARab groups are usually run by people who want freedom of speech, hence they respect the rights of others to get their view across no matter how much they may disagree with it.

I'm talking about sites like this, not the ones run by extremist's.

Some how I take your words on that

But note you are now open to be criticize by members here that had
The pleasure to be banned just cause they gave their opposite comment from a site that known to be not held by extremists cause unfortunately some of moderators are happy triggers

Womble

11-29-2005, 04:13 AM

H'mmmm, may i brag a little bit here if you don't all mind??

Of course i may;)

Nearly all chinese Muslims today are exjews.
Umm no. China never had too many Jews in the first place. Chinese Muslims are mostly Uigurs and other South Siberian nations who were Muslim since the Mongolian conquest times.

Furthermore, most Jews on Arab lands converted to Islam.
The other choice being the sharp end of the sword or the daily abuse under Dhimmi status.

Islam has more in common with Judaism than it does with Christianity since the Christians do not regard the Old Testament laws as binding.
Nor do Muslims. In fact, a sizeable proportion of Muslim clergy actually claims that the Torah is fake. Go figure.

Rabbi Tovia Singer, (the chat show host,in New York) who specialises in bringing Jews back from Christianity and Islam says he has managed to get about 300 (in a space of some years) back from Christianity, but of the ones that go to Islam not one came back. '

Israeli's who convert to Islam face discrimination (see links below) . I don't like the sound of that! :((( That's not nice.

Most Chinese Jews convertd to Islam
http://faculty.rmwc.edu/fwebb/buck/eaandrijcic/chinesejews.html#jewishcommunity
Your link doesn't support your claim. It says "many" Chinese Jews converted to Islam, but it does not say "most".

The rest of your links are also rather worthless, but I can't be bothered to fisk them right now. Do quit reposting them though.

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 06:17 AM

Look what happened in Russia when the iron curtain fell! it was all corruption and chaos because it happened too soon.

No. It was always that way. Except that corruption was split equally between the government and the mob. After the curtain fell, the mob took over. Still the same creappy life for everyone else. But this was bound to happen. Russia is whore of a country and the people have no morals either.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 08:03 AM

The other choice being the sharp end of the sword or the daily abuse under Dhimmi status.

The rest of your links are also rather worthless, but I can't be bothered to fisk them right now. Do quit reposting them though.

Aww come on Womble, i await your "fisking" with bated breath, cuz i know they are facts.

As for your comment about dhimmi status, and the sharp end of the sword, these are fabulous lies. It is certainly true that certain rulers during Islamic rule abused the dhimma's but they also abused their own people. You can blame those men, for sure, but not the system of rule itself. Abuse goes on in any system. Even a democracy (which you will probably hail as an improvement over dhimmitude) is open to abuse. Unscrupulous people will always find a way to abuse the system. Like every other system of rule, dhimmitude can also be abused.

Sharp end of the sword? huh? Can you please back it up with something, and show me who was converted via the sword. Below are references that you can check, (proof that Islam wasn't spread by the sword) , what do you have to rebutt them?

Islamâ€™s rapid expansion, unequaled by any other religion, was due to its religious content and values, as many unbiased Western intellectuals state: (see below)

It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered!

More than 80% non-Muslims in India. The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

Historian De Lacy Oâ€™Learyâ€™s opinion
De Lacy Oâ€™Leary in the book â€œIslam at the crossroadâ€ gives the best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword: â€œHistory makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is
one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.â€

Thomas Carlyle
The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book â€œHeroes and Hero worshipâ€, refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: â€œThe sword indeed,
but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one, in one manâ€™s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it; there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and tries to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.â€™

A. J. Arberry has also pointed out that the reason for the spread of Islam is Islam itself and its religious values. (Aspects of Islamic Civilization,)
He states:
The rapidity of the spread of Islam, noticeably through extensive provinces which had been long Christian, is a crucial fact of history..

The sublime rhetoric of the Quran, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds
of which move men to tears and ecstasy". (M. Pickhtal, The Meaning of the Glorious Quran, p.vii)
Arberry continues:
This, and the urgency of the simple message carried, holds the key to the mystery of one of the greatest catalysms in the history of religion. When
all military, political and economic factors have been exhausted, the religious impulse must still be recognized as the most vital and enduring.

Brockelman, who is usually very unsympathetic and partial, also recognizes the religious values of Islam as the main factor for the spread of Islam.
(History of the Islamic Peoples, p.37) Rosenthal makes his point as follows:
The more important factor for the spread of Islam is religious law of Islam
(Sharia which is an inclusive, all-embracing, all-comprehensive way of thinking and living) which was designed to cover all manifestations of life.
(Political Thought in Medieval Islam, p.21)

The tolerance of Islam is another factor in the spread of Islam. Toynbee praises this tolerance towards the Peoples of the Book after comparing it
with the attitude of the Christians towards Muslims and Jews in their lands.

(A Historian's Approach to Religion, p.246) T. Link attributes the spread of
Islam to the credibility of its principles together with its tolerance, persuasion and other kinds of attractions. (A History of Religion) Makarios,
Orthodox Patriorch of Antioch in the seventeenth century, compared the harsh treatment received by the Russians of the Orthodox Church at the hands of the Roman Catholic Poles with the tolerant attitude towards Orthodox christians shown by the Ottoman Government and prayed for the Sultans. (T. Link, A History of Religion)

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson
Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, â€œPeople who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, â€œit fell the day MUHAMMAD was bornâ€.

Another non-Muslim author, Ira Zepp Jr., says the following
It is unfortunate that Islam has been stereotyped as the 'religion of the sword' or that Islam was 'spread by the sword.' The historical reality is that the expansion of Islam was usually by persuasion and not by military power. In any case, Islam cannot be forced on anyone; if profession of the
shahadah [i.e. the declaration of Islam] is forced on someone, it is not true Islam.[8]
Indonesia and Malaysia
Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world.
The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, â€œWhich Muslim
army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?â€

East Coast of Africa
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may
again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, â€œWhich Muslim army went to the
East Coast of Africa.â€

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years
The Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims never used the
sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to
Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim who could
openly give the Azan, that is the call for prayers.

Islam is the fastest growing religion (conversions not births ) in America
and Europe Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe is Islam. Which sword is forcing people
in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

Jostaf Lopond, in his book, The Arabs Civilization, states, ' Force was never a factor in the spread of the Glorious Quran. In fact, Arabs left the freedom of choice to the people they overcome and conquered. Some of the
Christians, who converted to Islam and took the Arabic language as a medium
of communication, were merely impressed with the Arabs conquerors' justice. Such people never noticed any such astounding justice from their previous masters. Secondly, such converts noticed a great ease in dealing with the
Islamic life, faith and principles.' (Ibid, page 314).

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign
Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June
24th, 1985, said, "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account.
Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."

Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over
all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history
of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says, "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to
1."

Yes, something is right about Islam and that's why it has attracted so many
people throughout its 1400 years of history.

References
[1] De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads (London, 1923), p. 8
[2] A. S. Tritton, Islam (1951)
[3] Thomas Carlyle, Heroes and Hero Worship
[4] Thomas W. Arnold, The Call to Islam
[5] Huston Smith, The Religions of Man (1983)
[6] Dr William Baker, More in Common Than You Think: The Bridge between
Islam and Christianity, (1998) Defenders Publications
[7] John McManners (Ed.), The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity,
Oxford University Press, 1992, p. 174
[8] Ira Zepp Jr., A Muslim Primer (1992), Wakefield Editions, US, p. 134
[9] Norman A. Daniel, Islam and the West: The Making of an Image, p. 270
[10] Washington W. Irving, Tales Of The Alhambra, p. 52

Muslima

11-29-2005, 08:06 AM

Russia is whore of a country and the people have no morals either.

H'mmmmm, does this mean you're describing yourself here?;))

lol

I'm only kidding, i know what you mean:))

The Russian mafia, some years back was said to be the most dangerous in the world. I don't know about today.

Mediocrates

11-29-2005, 08:22 AM

Muslima

11-29-2005, 09:03 AM

So why is it today that Islam, outside of the west where it is a tiny minority and rather powerless exists essentially alone. By that I mean Islam rarely if ever exists alongside a plurality of other beliefs and faiths? Where in North Africa, the Middle East or west Asia is the 40% Islamic country or region of a country where a noticeable minority of muslims coexist side by side with others? You can automatically say something like "We're better and people just love us more" but that would be counterintuitive and counter factual. In subsaharan Africa for example, in Senegal, Mali, Nigeria whole countries and provinces have become totally muslim over the years. They have driven out all others. Today the northern half of Nigeria is practically beyond central government control as local Islamic leaders turn the lands into personal Islamic state-lets. No this notion that uniformed armies marching in unison under a banner is somehow a requirement for you to say that Islam uses force is wrong. It's not that simple, that's crusades era thinking.

Ah but this is another subject. The points i answered were in response to Islam being spread by the sword . The Islamic conquest's (under the banner of an Islamic Caliphate) were amongst the kindest in history. Lands were conquered according to Sharia Law for purpose of setting up a ruling system. Sharia law has a strict code of conduct, which forbids, forced conversions, expulsions and persecution. Everyone has rights, and everyone has obligations.

The examples you gave above (In Africa for example) are strifes and wars, and have little to do with Islam, they are terrotorial struggles, ethnic battles,.....Just because a crime is perpetrated by a Muslim doesn't mean it is sanctioned by Islam.

Those who are driving out non Muslim's are going against Islamic beliefs.

In the Gulf states, and the ARab countries there is co-existence. Just because you hear of the atrocities, doesn't mean there is no co-existence.

Womble

11-29-2005, 09:03 AM

Aww come on Womble, i await your "fisking" with bated breath, cuz i know they are facts.
What, like the "fact" that most Chinese Muslims are converted Jews?

(I love it how "gracefully" you've skipped over that one;))

As for your comment about dhimmi status, and the sharp end of the sword, these are fabulous lies. It is certainly true that certain rulers during Islamic rule abused the dhimma's but they also abused their own people. You can blame those men, for sure, but not the system of rule itself. Abuse goes on in any system. Even a democracy (which you will probably hail as an improvement over dhimmitude) is open to abuse. Unscrupulous people will always find a way to abuse the system. Like every other system of rule, dhimmitude can also be abused.
Oh no my dear, dhimmitude is not a system that may or may not be abused. Dhimmitude is a system of abuse.

"Allah said 'until they pay the jizyah' - if they do not choose to embrace Islam; 'with willing submission' - in defeat and subservience; 'and feel themselves subdued' - disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of the dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated."
That was written by Ibn Kathir, in his famous tafsir on the Qur'an, regarding the Sura 9:29.

And here's some more- from Sahih Al-Bukhari, a hadith as narrated by Abu Juhaifa:

"I asked 'Ali 'Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?' Or, as Uyaina once said, 'Apart from what the people have?' 'Ali said, 'By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Qur'an and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man with, and what is written in this sheet of paper.' I asked, 'What is on this paper?' He replied, 'The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)'."

In other words, killing a dhimmi is not an equal crime to killing a Muslim. If that isn't a discrimination, what is?

But hey, I've got more Muslim sources for you. How about Al-Zamakhshari?

The Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck.

Bernard Lewis, Britain's leading historian specializing in the history of Islam, wrote the following on the Dhimmis under Muslim rule:

It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam began to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesman for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so doing. Indeed, in the old order, this would have been regarded not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty. How could one accord the same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it? This would be a theological as well as a logical absurdity.

The rank of a full member of society was restricted to free male Muslims. Those who lacked any of these three essential qualifications -- that is, the slave, the woman or the unbeliever -- were not equal. The three basic inequalities of master and slave, man and woman, believer and unbeliever, were not merely admitted; they were established and regulated by holy law.

I'll post later about conversions by the sword specifically. Short on time now.

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 09:10 AM

H'mmmmm, does this mean you're describing yourself here?;))

lol

I'm only kidding, i know what you mean:))

The Russian mafia, some years back was said to be the most dangerous in the world. I don't know about today.

Um no, I am not an ethnic Russian. I don't share their genes and lack of morals. I am a Jew who happened to be born in Russia because my family was forced out of Israel centuries ago. Russians can go to hell for all I care. My only concern is Jews and Russian-Jews.

Mediocrates

11-29-2005, 09:29 AM

Ah but this is another subject.

No they aren't.

The points i answered were in response to Islam being spread by the sword .

No they weren't, they were a rhetorical device meant to distract. You assert because there is no national mechanized army marching under the flag of Islam to infidel countries that there is no such thing as Islam spread by violence, force, oppression. That is a convenient lie.

The Islamic conquest's (under the banner of an Islamic Caliphate) were amongst the kindest in history. Lands were conquered according to Sharia Law for purpose of setting up a ruling system.

No not really. All that means is that there was no western styled continental empire. Instead the Islamic model is the city state, not the nation, where the 'nation' such as it is is a concept shaped by Islam itself, the Ummah.

Sharia law has a strict code of conduct, which forbids, forced conversions, expulsions and persecution. Everyone has rights, and everyone has obligations.

We wouldn't have to write laws down unless they were routinely and unabashedly broken with impunity. That's the point of it. Your claim that because something is claimed to be just it therefore is, is false.

The examples you gave above (In Africa for example) are strifes and wars, and have little to do with Islam, they are terrotorial struggles, ethnic battles,.....Just because a crime is perpetrated by a Muslim doesn't mean it is sanctioned by Islam.

There is no abstract king of all Islam off on a hill somewhere. Leaders who say they are speaking for Islam when they do this or that, are speaking for Islam. You can sort out who you agree with and who you don't but to us it doesn't matter in the least.

Those who are driving out non Muslim's are going against Islamic beliefs.

Again it does not matter politically that you think they are heretics. They do not.

In the Gulf states, and the ARab countries there is co-existence.

Where?

tzanchan

11-29-2005, 11:33 AM

LOL...

Excuse me Muslima but the only reason your kind loves the Haaretz is because many Jews consider it to be Al Ahram. THe Haarerz for the most part it is anti-Israel, ultra - leftist Israeli publication with a fringe Israeli following. Let me remind you, the followers of the Haaretz publication have no respect in Israel. What is funny that the Islamists like you are only interested in that publication because it is anti-Israel. It is also a secular publication and has very little religious interest.

Since Israel is a democracy it allows the publications critical of Israel and the Israeli government. NO Arab state tolerates a Haaretz-type publication.

Just because haaretz does not have respect on israelforum, does not mean that it doesnt have respect in the actual state of Israel. Haaretz is my paper of choice, and it is hardly anti israel. It helps Israel alot more than Israelnn because constructive critisism of a state is healthy, as opposed to blindless following and refusal to fess up to mistakes.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 12:00 PM

No they weren't, they were a rhetorical device meant to distract. You assert because there is no national mechanized army marching under the flag of Islam to infidel countries that there is no such thing as Islam spread by violence, force, oppression. That is a convenient lie.

Mediocrates, it's worth mentioning something here,

Islam wasn't spread by the sword, for that means that someone forcibly converted people under threat of death. Whilst i do acknowledge that there were a few instances where this did happen, it was not a general thing, or widely spread practice. This was a Christian practice not a Muslim one.

If it is a lie, then how do you rebutt the links i posted by historians (all non Muslim and often critical of Islam) who say Islam wasn't spread by the sword?

I think what you mean to say, is that Islamic conqueror's or head's of state killed people of a another religion! If that's what you mean, then the correct term for that is GENOCIDE, not spreading Islam by the sword.

I'm not excusing what's going on in Africa, but i just wish people did not blame Islam for it. Blame the men doing it. For Islamic laws make clear the rules of war, which do not include, expulsions or genocide. In fact if you bother to read them you will find they are more in favour of the enemy.

Quote:Muslima

In the Gulf states, and the ARab countries there is co-existence.

Mediocrates
Where?

See links below. Obviously due to the state of war with Israel, they don't let Israeli's in, but that's political. It will change once peace reigns. And if you think it's only the dhimmitude system that discriminates, you will see from the last link that discrimination can work both ways, ie. what Arab's face in Israel.

Yemeni Jews adhere to their homeland
Sanaa |By Nasser Arrabyee | 06-07-2002
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=56745

The Jews of Bahrain:
"I consider myself a Bahraini Jewish Arab - and I am very proud of it."
http://www.haruth.com/JewsBahrain.html

Bahraini Jewish woman elected rights body head
By Habib Toumi, Bureau Chief
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/RegionNF.asp?ArticleID=180092
Jews in Iran Describe a Life of Freedom Despite Anti-Israel Actions by Tehran
http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

Minorities in the Middle East
Jews
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/mideast/cuvlm/minorities.html

Arab Jews better off under Islamic rule
Abu Dhabi |By A Staff Reporter | 20-06-2002
http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=55044

Israeli Arab Finds No Welcome Mat in Jewish Town
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=38361&d=21&m=1&y=2004

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:14 PM

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:19 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands#Yemen

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:27 PM

http://www.meforum.org/article/263

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:29 PM

Arab anti-Semitism in the 20th and 21st century
[edit]
Saudi Arabia
A Saudi government website initially stated that Jews would not be granted tourist visas to enter the country [1]; it has since removed this statement, and apologized for posting "erroneous information". Members of religions other than Islam, including Jews, are not permitted to practice their religion publicly in Saudi Arabia; according to the U.S. State Department [2], religious freedom "does not exist" in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is the official religion of Saudi Arabia, and the tenets of that religion are enforced by law. In 2001, Arab Radio and Television of Saudi Arabia produced a 30-part television miniseries entitled "Horseman Without a Horse", a dramatization of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. [3] The former King of Saudi Arabia allegedly gave visitors copies of both The Protocols and Mein Kampf. [4]

[edit]
Arab Newspapers
Many Arab newspapers, such as Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, the Palestinian Authority's official newspaper, often write that "the Jews" control all the world's governments, and that "the Jews" plan genocide on all the Arabs in the West Bank. Others write less sensational stories, and states that Jews have too much of an influence in the US government. Often the leaders of other nations are said to be controlled by Jews.

Articles in many official Arab government newspapers (notably those of the Palestinian Authority, Libya and Saudi Arabia) claim that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an infamous anti-Semitic forgery, reflects actual facts, and thus points to an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

"Netanyahu's Plan completely matches the foundations of the greater Zionist plan which is organized according to specific stages that were determined when the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was composed and when Herzl along with Weizmann traveled around the world in order to determine the appropriate location for the implementation of this conspiracy," (official Palestinian Authority newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, November 30, 1997)
"The Jews seek to conquer the world...We must expose the Zionist-Colonialist plot and its goals, which destroy not only our people but the entire world" (PA Minister of Agriculture, Abdel Jawad Saleh, quoted in Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, November 6, 1997) [5]
The Egyptian government run newspaper, Al-Akhbar, on 29 April 2002, published an editorial denying the Holocaust as a fraud. The next paragraph decries the failure of the Holocaust to eliminate all of the Jews [6]:

With regard to the fraud of the Holocaustâ€¦ Many French studies have proven that this is no more than a fabrication, a lie, and a fraud!! That is, it is a 'scenario' the plot of which was carefully tailored, using several faked photos completely unconnected to the truth. Yes, it is a film, no more and no less. Hitler himself, whom they accuse of Nazism, is in my eyes no more than a modest 'pupil' in the world of murder and bloodshed. He is completely innocent of the charge of frying them in the hell of his false Holocaust!! The entire matter, as many French and British scientists and researchers have proven, is nothing more than a huge Israeli plot aimed at extorting the German government in particular and the European countries in general. But I, personally and in light of this imaginary tale, complain to Hitler, even saying to him from the bottom of my heart, 'If only you had done it, brother, if only it had really happened, so that the world could sigh in relief [without] their evil and sin.'

[edit]
Arab 9/11 conspiracy theories
Across the Arab world, a fair number of Arab media outlets, some government-sponsored (such as those of Libya and Saudi Arabia, and some of those of the Palestinian Authority), published pieces arguing that the September 11, 2001 attacks were actually carried out by Jews, Zionists, Israelis, or even Americans. Many within the Arab world viewed this terrorist act as a conspiracy to make the world hate all Arabs, and therefore believed that people perceived to be enemies of the Arabs must really be to blame; many others disagreed. After Al Qaeda acknowledged their role publicly, these claims lost credibility, and came to be widely seen as a conspiracy theory. Such theories are also found outside the Arab world, including in the United States. See 9/11 conspiracy theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_anti-Semitism

Muslima

11-29-2005, 12:36 PM

What, like the "fact" that most Chinese Muslims are converted Jews?

(I love it how "gracefully" you've skipped over that one;)).

No not skipped, but that's all i had at that moment to post. I'm no expert on Chinese Jewry, but i have read ( i forget where) ,that most did convert or was it all or something like that.

Oh no my dear, dhimmitude is not a system that may or may not be abused. Dhimmitude is a system of abuse.

"Allah said 'until they pay the jizyah' - if they do not choose to embrace Islam; 'with willing submission' - in defeat and subservience; 'and feel themselves subdued' - disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of the dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated."
That was written by Ibn Kathir, in his famous tafsir on the Qur'an, regarding the Sura 9:29.

And here's some more- from Sahih Al-Bukhari, a hadith as narrated by Abu Juhaifa:

"I asked 'Ali 'Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?' Or, as Uyaina once said, 'Apart from what the people have?' 'Ali said, 'By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Qur'an and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man with, and what is written in this sheet of paper.' I asked, 'What is on this paper?' He replied, 'The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)'."

In other words, killing a dhimmi is not an equal crime to killing a Muslim. If that isn't a discrimination, what is?

OK granted, in certain aspects, you could say it is discriminatory. Dhimma cannot have equal status to Muslims, the reason being they reject The Prophets (Jesus and Mohammed/ or just Mohammed)

Can i ask, which website do you get your Hadeeth's and Quran quotes from? I only ask, because dubious websites twist them to mislead ....

But hey, I've got more Muslim sources for you. How about Al-Zamakhshari?

The Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck.

Bernard Lewis, Britain's leading historian specializing in the history of Islam, wrote the following on the Dhimmis under Muslim rule:

[b]It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam began to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesman for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right.

It's worth mentioning, that there are differing opinion's on Hadeeth's and the various scholars, not all of these are binding. What is binding is the way The Prophet treated his dhimma . You only give half the picture. Here is a more complete one:

Non-Muslim Citizens of a Muslim State:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544450
The above injunctions include all People of the Book wherever they may be. However, those people who live under the protection of an Islamic government enjoy special privileges. They are referred to as "the Protected People" ( Ahl Adh-Dhimmah or Dhimmis), meaning that Allah, His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), and the community of Muslims have made a covenant with them that they may live in safety and security under the Islamic government.

In modern terminology, Dhimmis are "citizens" of the Muslim state. From the earliest period of Islam to the present day, Muslims are in unanimous agreement that Dhimmis enjoy the same rights and carry the same responsibilities as Muslims themselves, while being free to practice their own faiths.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) emphasized the duties of Muslims toward Dhimmis , threatening anyone who violates them with the wrath and punishment of Allah. The Prophet is reported to have said: "He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah." (Reported by At-Tabarani in Al-Awsat with good chain of narrators.)

He also says, "Whoever hurts a Dhimmi , I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection." (Reported by Al-Khatib with authentic chain of narrations.)

"On the Day of Judgment I will dispute with anyone who oppresses a person from among the People of the Covenant, or infringes on his right, or puts a responsibility on him which is beyond his strength, or takes something from him against his will." (Reported by Abu Dawud)

The successors of the Prophet safeguarded these rights and sanctities of non-Muslim citizens, and the jurists of Islam, in spite of the variation of their opinions regarding many other matters, are unanimous in emphasizing these rights and sanctities.

The Maliki jurist, Shahab Ad-Deen Al-Qarafi states: The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward Ahl Adh-Dhimmah . They are our neighbors, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against anyone of them, by damaging his reputation, or by doing him some injury, has breached the Covenant of Allah, His Messenger, and his conduct run counters to the teachings of Islam. (Al-Furuq, by Al-Qarafi.)

And the Zahiri jurist, Ibn Hazm, says: If a Dhimmi is threatened by an enemy, it is our obligation to fight the enemy with soldiers and weapons. With this, we will be honoring the Covenant of Allah and His Messenger. To hand him over to the enemy would mean to betrayal to the Covenant of Allah and His Messenger. (Maratib Al-Ijma', by Ibn Hazm)

Taken from
Scope of Amicable Dealings with Non-Muslims
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544450

Another thing Womble, read the Constitution of Medina, The Prophet gave his dhimma equal status.

Finally, About Bernard Lewis,
Yes i agree he is a know historian who has his finger on the pulse. His own words:

"Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

:)

Muslima

11-29-2005, 12:45 PM

I have to give credit to some Islamic propagandists. The Jews must learn from them how to sell their stuff they themselves identify as:

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

President Musharraf

It is incredible that they can peddle "the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race" as something precious and valuable.

Toga , In the Quran, God describes your ancestors as the Best of People. This is when they were slaves in Egypt.

Now imagine, how it would sound if some anti-semite, or atheist or Non Muslim/Jew/Christian, were to read the Quran and ask

How can slaves be the best of people?

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:50 PM

Slavery in Islam http://www.twf.org/Library/Slavery.html
The Quran
O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13
Prophet Muhammad, 570--632 AD
. . . yield obedience to my successor, although he may be an Abyssinian slave.
He will not enter paradise who behaveth ill to his slaves. The companions said, "O Apostle of God! Have you not told us, that there will be a great many slaves and orphans amongst your disciples?" He said, "Yes; then be kind to them as your own children, and give them to eat of what you eat yourselves. The slaves that say their prayers are your brothers."

[The first call to prayer at the Quba mosque built by Prophet Muhammad was given in 622 by Bilal -- a black slave freed by the Prophet. The Supreme Court of the United States declared in 1857 that the slave Dred Scott could not sue for his freedom because he was not a person, but property.]

Annemarie Schimmel, Islam: An Introduction
Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is higly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions. -- p. 67
Roger Du Pasquier, Unveiling Islam
To answer this question, it should first be remarked that Islam has tolerated slavery but has never approved of it, and that all its teachings and prescriptions in this regard lead to its alleviation as far as possible in the short term, and, in the longer term, conduce to its progressive suppression. To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war -- when these were not simply massacred -- and the Islamic state would have put itself at a grave disadvantage vis-a-vis its enemies had it not reciprocated to some extent. By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of Muslims to death on the field of battle.
It should be very clearly underlined that the slavery once practiced in the Muslim world cannot be compared to the form it had assumed -- for instance -- in the Roman Empire. Islamic legislation subjected slaveowners to a set of precise obligations, first among which was the slave's right to life, for, according to a hadith, 'Whoever kills his slave shall be killed by us'. In consequence, the murder of a slave was punished like that of a free man.

There are many other hadiths which define Islam's true attitude in this regard. The Prophet said: 'Your slaves are your brethren; therefore whoever has a brother who depends upon him must feed and clothe him in the way he feeds and clothes himself; and should not impose upon him tasks which exceed his capacity; should you ask them to do such things, then you are obliged to help them.' The Sharia takes this injunction, among many others, into account when defining the responsibilities and duties of slaveholders.

There is another teaching which enjoins respect for the human dignity of slaves: 'Let none of you say, "This man, or this woman, is my slave". He must rather say: "This is my man, and this my woman."' Putting into relief the provisional character of social ties and the authority exercised by slaveowners over their slaves, the Prophet said: 'It is true that God has made you their masters, but, had He so wished, He could equally well have made you their slaves.'

To manumit a slave has always been regarded as one of the most meritorious of all acts, and many passages of the Qur'an recommend or even require it, particularly as a means of expiation for serious faults. Traditional legislation lays down the methods of voluntary liberation of slaves by their masters (itq), and there were very many Muslims who observed these, especially at the end of their lives, so as not to die and appear before God without having given full freedom to the human beings placed in their power during their earthly lives.

Additionally, slaves had the ability to enfranchise themselves at their own initiative, without waiting passively for the goodwill of their masters: the procedure known as mukataba allowed them to buy their own freedom with sums which they saved from their work, and which the state frequently augmented with advances -- a measure which the slaveowner had no right to oppose. In contrast to the situation under Roman law, slaves were not deprived of the legal ability to exercise their rights and to appeal to a judge against their masters in all cases of illegal treatment.

Besides domestic slavery, which was generally imbued with a patriarchal character, there also existed a form of military slavery, which was frequently employed by princes in need of recruits, especially for their personal guards. This situation had the effect of conferring an often considerable influence and power on men of servile condition or origin, and some of these became the founders of great and illustrious dynasties such as the Tulunids and Mamlukes of Egypt.

The object of a prosperous commercial sector, which under the Abbasid Empire was often the speciality of non-Muslims, particularly Byzantine and Venetian Christians, and Jews, slavery gradually declined in importance until, at the beginning of the present century, it was confined to a few survivals which have now disappeared entirely. Thanks to the strict traditional controls which have always regulated the practice, it would be difficult to deny that social conditions were remarkably humane during the great periods of Muslim civilization, and that these, moreover, were in conformity with the 'egalitarian' spirit of Islam, which, in a hadith, teaches that 'the blackest of Abyssinians' is superior to most noble of Quraies, if he has more faith. -- p. 104 - 107

David Hecht, "Slavery" African Style
Howard Zinn, Declarations of Independence

The idea that entered Western consciousness several centuries ago, that black people are less than human, made possible the Atlantic slave trade, during which perhaps 40 million people died. -- p. 1
Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi, Slavery From Islamic and Christian Perspectives
Among all the religions it was only Islam that attacked the very foundations of this evil. -- preface
Sylviane A. Diouf, Servants of Allah: African Muslims Enslaved in the Americas
Author asserts that Islam was the first revealed religion followed by African slaves, and describes their struggle in upholding Islamic practices.

Toga

11-29-2005, 12:53 PM

Toga , In the Quran, God describes your ancestors as the Best of People. This is when they were slaves in Egypt.

Now imagine, how it would sound if some anti-semite, or atheist or Non Muslim/Jew/Christian, were to read the Quran and ask

How can slaves be the best of people?

I am very impressed by you! If you have the audacity to peddle:
----
"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

President Musharraf
----
it is incredible. I hope the Jews learn your marketing skills. After all we have a lot more to offer: democracy, education, freedom, tolerance, peace...etc. and guess what? We are on the losing end.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 12:59 PM

I am very impressed by you! If you have the audacity to peddle:
----
"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

President Musharraf
----
it is incredible. I hope the Jews learn your marketing skills. After all we have a lot more to offer: democracy, education, freedom, tolerance, peace...etc. and guess what? We are on the losing end.

What is this obsession you have with President Musharraf's words? You are taking them out of the context he meant them.

You're not making sense, what does his words have to do with my posts which are responses to questions posed by other members here?

Oh and you didn't answer the question i asked you, which tally very well with your President Musharraf comments:

If an atheist were to ask,

How can slaves be the best of people?

Mediocrates

11-29-2005, 01:07 PM

Toga

11-29-2005, 01:17 PM

Anybody who wants to tell me that is evidence of how well Jews were treated needs to stop sniffing glue.

Why "stop sniffing glue"?

If they stop that practice they would have to face reality, facts and truth. The fact is that they killed some Jews and expelled 1M Jews out of their Arab states and when the Jews reached their brethren in the Jewish land they tried to annihilate them in Israel not once, not twice but multiple times. Moreover, they are still trying to wipe out the Jews/or drive them out of the area but now they are doing it by proxy, via the Arabs who claim to be Palestinian.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 01:18 PM

I skipped right to the bottom. You're talking about museum artifacts here. 200 Jews here, 100 there, 730 over there. That's not a community it's a taxidermy case. Any state no matter how atrocious can afford to keep a tiny handful of otherwise pogrommed people around. Iraq had what 400,000 Jews? Iran another few hundred thousand. WW2 saw the total population of Jewry in Europe reduced by smaller ratios over the 12 year period of the Reich than the total ratio decrease of the Jewish population over the Maghreb, and Mizrai during the period 1947-54. Anybody who wants to tell me that is evidence of how well Jews were treated needs to stop sniffing glue.

Let's not twist historical facts into glue sniffing sessions Mediocrates.

Museum artiacts?
Well, we both know the reason for that. Post Theodore Herzl and Pre-Theodore Herzl.
That wasn't the point. The point wasn't how many Jews are living in Arab lands, it was how they are treated today.

The deteriorating of relations because of the creation of Israel and the expulsion of Arabs from Israel, is the reason for the Jewish expulsions from ARab lands, and the reason there was a lot of hostility which led to a lot fleeing, (those that left before the expulsions) .

Either way, Arab's didn't expel their Jews until after Israel had expelled Arab's and other minorities. Not that they did the right thing mind you, the Jews living on their lands shouldn't have been made the scapegoat. Don't come back now, and say Israel didn't expel, because i've heard the alternative version of them being told to leave by the Arab heads of state who declared war.......either way, Israel should not have let them leave/be expelled.

Mil

11-29-2005, 01:23 PM

Muslima it was claimed that before 1948 over 50% of the entire population of Baghdad was Jewish....

In Saudi Arabia, me a Jew, is not even a person. I am sorry but Arabs are an intollerant bunch.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 01:32 PM

Muslima it was claimed that before 1948 over 50% of the entire population of Baghdad was Jewish....

In Saudi Arabia, me a Jew, is not even a person. I am sorry but Arabs are an intollerant bunch.

Look,

How many times do i have to say this?

It's not due to intolerance, it's due to them not recognising Israel as a country, and what they perceive as Jewish support for it.

The war with Israel, is the reason Jews are looked at suspiciously today.
The Arab/Muslim countries do not even recognise Israel. What do you expect from Saudi Arabia until there is some sort of peace deal? Do you think they will welcome you with open arms?

scattergood

11-29-2005, 01:37 PM

Let's not twist historical facts into glue sniffing sessions Mediocrates.

Museum artiacts?
Well, we both know the reason for that. Post Theodore Herzl and Pre-Theodore Herzl.
That wasn't the point. The point wasn't how many Jews are living in Arab lands, it was how they are treated today.

The deteriorating of relations because of the creation of Israel and the expulsion of Arabs from Israel, is the reason for the Jewish expulsions from ARab lands, and the reason there was a lot of hostility which led to a lot fleeing, (those that left before the expulsions) .

Either way, Arab's didn't expel their Jews until after Israel had expelled Arab's and other minorities. Not that they did the right thing mind you, the Jews living on their lands shouldn't have been made the scapegoat. Don't come back now, and say Israel didn't expel, because i've heard the alternative version of them being told to leave by the Arab heads of state who declared war.......either way, Israel should not have let them leave/be expelled.

So let me get this straight, you don't believe that most of the Arabs left what is now Israel based on the urgings of other Arab leaders, but if they did, then the Jews who were there shouldn't have let them leave?

There is clear evidence that the expulsion and extermination of Jews in Arab land had begun prior to the founding of Israel, and there is clear evidence that many if not most of the Arabs in Israel left in order to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies, but to you that doesn't matter because the Jews should have stopped them from leaving while 5 Arab armies were invading Israel in order to obliterate the state and exterminate the Jews who lived there? I just want to make sure I understand your position.

Mil

11-29-2005, 01:49 PM

Posted by Muslima:

Look,

How many times do i have to say this?

It's not due to intolerance, it's due to them not recognising Israel as a country, and what they perceive as Jewish support for it.

This is GOOD STUFF!!!! Does every Arab think like this?

The war with Israel, is the reason Jews are looked at suspiciously today.

GOOD STUFF Again!!!! Admitting to anti-semitism and intollerance is a right approach!!!!

The Arab/Muslim countries do not even recognise Israel.

Egypt and Jordan do.

What do you expect from Saudi Arabia until there is some sort of peace deal?

I don't expect anything from Saudi Arabia - and I don't care to expect anything from Saudi Arabia. I expect for all that oil to run out some time in the near future so all those Arabs can drown in those sands of theirs.

Do you think they will welcome you with open arms?

Do you?

Muslima

11-29-2005, 01:52 PM

So let me get this straight, you don't believe that most of the Arabs left what is now Israel based on the urgings of other Arab leaders, but if they did, then the Jews who were there shouldn't have let them leave?

There is clear evidence that the expulsion and extermination of Jews in Arab land had begun prior to the founding of Israel, and there is clear evidence that many if not most of the Arabs in Israel left in order to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies, but to you that doesn't matter because the Jews should have stopped them from leaving while 5 Arab armies were invading Israel in order to obliterate the state and exterminate the Jews who lived there? I just want to make sure I understand your position.

The way Israel was created could hardly be called a model of conquest, but that is not the point.

Let's just say that even if the ARab's and others living in "palestine" or whatever you want to call it, had wanted to leave, then the so called conqueror's (Jewish or not, and remember it was Britain in control) should have made them feel welcome.
As i said, there are conflicting views on this, and it doesn't really matter whether they were driven out, or told to get out, or fled for fear of safety. Either way, the host country has a responsibilty towards those it made homeless. It is probable, that is was a mixture of the three, and probably other reasons too..By the same token, i'd say the Arab's who expelled their Jews in anger as a tit for tat revenge, owe them compensation too, since a lot fled without their assets etc. This is not something they they propogate in their own countries, and a lot of Arabs are unaware of this.

About the expulsions and exterminations, yes you're right they were going on before Israel was created, but if you read my post i did say PRE THEODORE HERZL AND POST THEODORE HERZL .

After the late 1800's (that was when THerzl began peddling Zionism to the world) , the attitudes of the ARab countries towards their Jews began to change, they were no longer trusted, and relations went from bad to worse, culminating in the expulsions......

scattergood

11-29-2005, 02:17 PM

The way Israel was created could hardly be called a model of conquest, but that is not the point.

Let's just say that even if the ARab's and others living in "palestine" or whatever you want to call it, had wanted to leave, then the so called conqueror's (Jewish or not, and remember it was Britain in control) should have made them feel welcome.
As i said, there are conflicting views on this, and it doesn't really matter whether they were driven out, or told to get out, or fled for fear of safety. Either way, the host country has a responsibilty towards those it made homeless. It is probable, that is was a mixture of the three, and probably other reasons too..By the same token, i'd say the Arab's who expelled their Jews in anger as a tit for tat revenge, owe them compensation too, since a lot fled without their assets etc. This is not something they they propogate in their own countries, and a lot of Arabs are unaware of this.

About the expulsions and exterminations, yes you're right they were going on before Israel was created, but if you read my post i did say PRE THEODORE HERZL AND POST THEODORE HERZL .

After the late 1800's (that was when THerzl began peddling Zionism to the world) , the attitudes of the ARab countries towards their Jews began to change, they were no longer trusted, and relations went from bad to worse, culminating in the expulsions......

Israel was explicitly NOT created by conquest by the Jews. No, Israel was established as a Jewish homeland out of the League of Nations administered British Mandate which was in turn resolved by the United Nations.

As for making the Arabs feel welcome, well, how do you propose doing that within 3 days of declaring a state and then being invaded? Notwithstanding the calls of of the Israeli leadership for the Arab population to stay and that they would enjoy the benfits of an open society, something which the Arabs in Israel enjoy while the Arabs out of Israel tend not to.

I like your idea about compensation....

AraV

11-29-2005, 02:25 PM

Ok Muslima Israel gives some compensation to the Arab Refugees, to the scale suggested by Edhud Barak.

You said you are willing to have Arab States pay compensation to the jewish refugees.

The problem is the jewish refugees don't need or even want compensation because they picked up their lives from scratch, and rebuilt themselves and are now completely past their family history and looking towards the future. To add to that no Arab Nation will ever be willing to compensate them.

It is like the way the Greek, and Turkish refugees from the Greek War of Independence did not get, ask for, or need the other nation to compensate them, because Greece and Turkey both looked after their own.

What the jewish refugees are asking for is not money or their property back, or well any material possession, they are only asking for the Arabs to admit that they ethnically cleansed them from their lands for being jewish, and took all of their money and property because they were jews, and to apologize for it. The few surviving Armenian Refugees from the Armenian Genocide, and their children/grandchildren/great grandchildred are making exactly the same demand from the Turks.

Is refusal to take responsibility for etnical/religious hatred motivated crimes a Muslim thing?

Ironically had the Arabs on the outside not launched the genocide motivated 1948 war then the fate of Lebanon would probably have been Israel's fate.

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 02:28 PM

Don't come back now, and say Israel didn't expel, because i've heard the alternative version of them being told to leave by the Arab heads of state who declared war.......either way, Israel should not have let them leave/be expelled.

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. Now you are getting it.... and admitting it!

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 02:30 PM

Look,

How many times do i have to say this?

It's not due to intolerance, it's due to them not recognising Israel as a country, and what they perceive as Jewish support for it.

The war with Israel, is the reason Jews are looked at suspiciously today.
The Arab/Muslim countries do not even recognise Israel. What do you expect from Saudi Arabia until there is some sort of peace deal? Do you think they will welcome you with open arms?

Funny, because Muslims and Saudis can go where they want. But let's not lower ourselves to those types of comparisons shall we?

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 02:31 PM

There is clear evidence that the expulsion and extermination of Jews in Arab land had begun prior to the founding of Israel, and there is clear evidence that many if not most of the Arabs in Israel left in order to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies, but to you that doesn't matter because the Jews should have stopped them from leaving while 5 Arab armies were invading Israel in order to obliterate the state and exterminate the Jews who lived there? I just want to make sure I understand your position.

She actually believes this , yes, you understand.

minusthejihad

11-29-2005, 02:32 PM

After the late 1800's (that was when THerzl began peddling Zionism to the world) , the attitudes of the ARab countries towards their Jews began to change, they were no longer trusted, and relations went from bad to worse, culminating in the expulsions......

Sorry my friend, Zionism is over 2000 years old, even if it wasn't officially called that. Peddling, hmmm. Kind of like the propaganda garbage you are peddling now?

Muslima

11-29-2005, 10:29 PM

Is refusal to take responsibility for etnical/religious hatred motivated crimes a Muslim thing?

Ironically had the Arabs on the outside not launched the genocide motivated 1948 war then the fate of Lebanon would probably have been Israel's fate.

No it's not a "Muslim" thing, but as i said, they won't do that now because of the state of war. I'm sure that will happen in the future though .

As for Turkey, they too are beginning to come to terms with the Armenian genocide. I heard Turkey was looking into tackling this ignoble chapter of their history.

Muslima

11-29-2005, 10:35 PM

Funny, because Muslims and Saudis can go where they want. But let's not lower ourselves to those types of comparisons shall we?

If a country does not recognise another or if they are at war, it stands to reason that they won't allow citizens of that country into their own country. That applies to any country. When the USA bombed Libya, and asked for British help, the then Prime Minister, asked all Libyan citizens to leave the UK.

So, does Israel give visa's to citizens of those countries that don't recognise her? ie. For example, can a Saudi get a visa to visit Israel?

Muslima

11-29-2005, 10:43 PM

Sorry my friend, Zionism is over 2000 years old, even if it wasn't officially called that. Peddling, hmmm. Kind of like the propaganda garbage you are peddling now?

Yes, but that isn't the point here. You're not understanding the feeling of Joe Arab at that time.

For centuries the Jews had lived amongst Arabs. From the Arab viewpoint, it was like a betrayal. Remember, there was no mass media in those days, and the Mid East was colonised. The average person had no idea what was going in Europe. They wanted the colonisers (French and British) out of the Mid EAst. Most of them felt that the new state of Israel, was a tool of the imperialists. They didn't know about the need for a Jewish homeland.

They felt they had been made to pay for the sins of the Europeans against Jews.

That was then.

Times have moved on.......new generation.....new hope......

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 08:26 AM

Yes, but that isn't the point here. You're not understanding the feeling of Joe Arab at that time.

For centuries the Jews had lived amongst Arabs. From the Arab viewpoint, it was like a betrayal. Remember, there was no mass media in those days, and the Mid East was colonised. The average person had no idea what was going in Europe. They wanted the colonisers (French and British) out of the Mid EAst. Most of them felt that the new state of Israel, was a tool of the imperialists. They didn't know about the need for a Jewish homeland.

They felt they had been made to pay for the sins of the Europeans against Jews.

That was then.

Times have moved on.......new generation.....new hope......

I agree. Arabs/Muslims must not waste any more time and learn real history of the mid-east, what they did to Jews, and why Jews have been trying to get their homeland back for over 2000 years. Once they understand that and deal with the fact that Israel exists and will always exist, then the healing can begin.

ygalg1

11-30-2005, 12:10 PM

I agree. Arabs/Muslims must not waste any more time and learn real history of the mid-east, what they did to Jews, and why Jews have been trying to get their homeland back for over 2000 years. Once they understand that and deal with the fact that Israel exists and will always exist, then the healing can begin.

Even, to be the most accurate in details of history, be the hand on top, wonâ€™t resolve the conflict between the Arabs and us. And the reason is, we donâ€™t have the conflict with Arabs. Palestinians been created to conceal the true reason of the conflict.

And that is, the Islamic objectives! What are the Islamic objectives? Make the world live by Islamic rule. Establish caliphate. Eliminate the Jews or to convert them, will prove Islam to be true monotheistic religion. Although, there is a problem lies for the Muslims and that they cannot settle with each other. 72 sects 2 of are the dominate ones and there are also other rivals, who desire as well to globalize. as the white nationalist, neo nazis...etc. and they as well increasing.

To note, there are soldiers in American army and other armies are belonging to white nationalist groups I wonder how they manage to serve together with none Caucasian?

Muslima

11-30-2005, 12:15 PM

[left]
[ What are the Islamic objectives? Make the world live by Islamic rule. Establish caliphate. Eliminate the Jews or to convert them will prove Islam to be true monotheistic religion. [/size][/font]

Ygalg, your understanding of the Islamic religion is all wrong.

When we had an Islamic Caliphate before did we "eliminate" the Jews? Did we force them to convert? I'm curious to hear your response to this.
This is a riduculous assessment and conclusion! Why do you think we would do that now? In fact, Islam's closest association was with the Jews.

Everybody has a place in a Caliphate, forced conversions are not allowed in Islam. Jews are considered monotheists.

End of story.

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 12:17 PM

There Will Never Be A Caliphate! Period.

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 12:22 PM

Everybody has a place in a Caliphate,

- Muslim
- Dhimmi
- Buried

ygalg1

11-30-2005, 12:58 PM

Ygalg, your understanding of the Islamic religion is all wrong.

When we had an Islamic Caliphate before did we "eliminate" the Jews? Did we force them to convert? I'm curious to hear your response to this.
This is a riduculous assessment and conclusion! Why do you think we would do that now? In fact, Islam's closest association was with the Jews.

Everybody has a place in a Caliphate, forced conversions are not allowed in Islam. Jews are considered monotheists.

End of story.
So, it is the reason behind the conflict.

Everybody has a place in a Caliphate
my understanding of the Islamic religion, is all wrong :rolleyes:

Muslima

11-30-2005, 01:06 PM

So, it is the reason behind the conflict.
my understanding of the Islamic religion, is all wrong :rolleyes:

No it's not the reason for the conflict, do you know nothing of history Ygalg? The land of Israel is sacred to Muslim's too, that's part of the reason, the other one are the expulsions and the way it was created. Yet another is the plight of the refugee's.

Do i really need to list all the reasons?

Remember, when Richard the Lionheart wanted to take the Holy Land, he faced the same wrath. So did all the others who took Jerusalem. Since the dawn of Islam, we have had sovereignty over the land.

God does say in the Quran that he will return the Jews to Israel before the end times. When the Muslim world finally recognises Israel, it will be that prophecy fulfilled....here is that verse in The Quran......

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 01:07 PM

Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran unless I am wrong?

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 01:10 PM

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

Muslima, who was responsible for the words in the brackets, such as [Pharoah] or [the Land of Israel]?

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 01:14 PM

I'm asking because I think interpreting religious writing is much like interpreting poetry or Nostradamus' writings.

Muslima

11-30-2005, 01:17 PM

Muslima, who was responsible for the words in the brackets, such as [Pharoah] or [the Land of Israel]?

The Prophet Mohammed was responsible for that. He explained the Quran , and that is what the Hadeeths are about. The Quran is the direct word of God, and the Prophet was given the task of explaining each of the verses.

It is the translation in English MinustheJihad. There has and will only ever be one QUran. The Quran is in Arabic as you know, but translated into every language, even though it must be learnt in Arabic, by Muslims.

The translations and meanings of The Quran were given to The Prophet, and God gave a promise that unlike the previous 3 books this one would remain unchanged.

Not one letter has changed :)

Muslima

11-30-2005, 01:20 PM

Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran unless I am wrong?

Not everything is mentioned literally in The QUran , that is why Islam is Quran and Hadeeths. For example, the QUran tells us to pray 5 times, but doesn't tell us how, that was left to The Prophet to explain.

Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hadeeths by the Prophet.

It is a common fallacy that some people believe, that just because Jerusalem is not literally mentioned in the Quran , it means nothing to us.

I'd post the Hadeeth's here, but i may be accused of proselytising so i won't:)

Womble

11-30-2005, 01:23 PM

No not skipped, but that's all i had at that moment to post. I'm no expert on Chinese Jewry, but i have read ( i forget where) ,that most did convert or was it all or something like that.
No my dear, you have merely misinterpreted the link you posted in the same very message. I advice you actually read your own links next time before flooding the board with them.

OK granted, in certain aspects, you could say it is discriminatory. Dhimma cannot have equal status to Muslims, the reason being they reject The Prophets (Jesus and Mohammed/ or just Mohammed)
And there you have it. Dhimma cannot have equal status to Muslims. This is all that matters.

Can i ask, which website do you get your Hadeeth's and Quran quotes from? I only ask, because dubious websites twist them to mislead ....
I rarely rely on one website. My favorite source is usually the Italian Muslim Assembly, but the quotes I brought here can be found in the Wikipedia, for example. The Al-Zamakhshari quote is quite famous

It's worth mentioning, that there are differing opinion's on Hadeeth's and the various scholars, not all of these are binding. What is binding is the way The Prophet treated his dhimma .
No, what interests us is which interpretation is being put into action.

Another thing Womble, read the Constitution of Medina, The Prophet gave his dhimma equal status.
Perhaps- but what was actually put into practice by his followers was not the Medina Charter, but the in-your-face discriminatory Pact of Umar.

Finally, About Bernard Lewis,
Yes i agree he is a know historian who has his finger on the pulse. His own words:

"Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

:)
Perhaps, perhaps not. He most certainly didn't see it as a good thing though.

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 01:37 PM

The Prophet Mohammed was responsible for that. He explained the Quran , and that is what the Hadeeths are about. The Quran is the direct word of God, and the Prophet was given the task of explaining each of the verses.

Can you please tell us what writing utensil g-d used to write the Koran? Was it life sized? And how big is that?

So one man got to add words to g-d's (supposedly) book, filling in gaps? Do you think since he weilded a lot of power at the time, that he could add words that he felt furthered his agenda at the time such as "Jerusalem"? So there is no objective view of the Koran because the Hadiths are completely subjective? Or do you take every word as truth? Do you doubt anything? When is the last time you have seen a true "act of g-d"?

Muslima

11-30-2005, 02:06 PM

Can you please tell us what writing utensil g-d used to write the Koran? Was it life sized? And how big is that?

So one man got to add words to g-d's (supposedly) book, filling in gaps? Do you think since he weilded a lot of power at the time, that he could add words that he felt furthered his agenda at the time such as "Jerusalem"? So there is no objective view of the Koran because the Hadiths are completely subjective? Or do you take every word as truth? Do you doubt anything? When is the last time you have seen a true "act of g-d"?

The Quran was revealed to The Prophet over 22 years MinustheJihad, and it was written down during the Prophet's lifetime, and checked by him.

The hadeeths do actually differ that is why there are different sects of Islam, some follow the hadeeth's of one scholar and some another, however the differences are minor. They are certainly nowhere near as big as the ones in Christianity.

About doubting them, it's worth mentioning that they were very carefully compiled, and there are 4 major scholars who put them together in written form. There are strong ones, and weak ones. Even if there was a slight doubt as to their authenticity, then they were regarded as weak hadeeth's.

The hadeeth's about Jerusalem are actually disputed by some scholars, and if you're interested, you can click the fatwa bank at www.islamonline.net and search for fatwa's on Jerusalem.

The Prophet certainly did not have any power in the beginning, and each verse as it was revealed was written down. The Prophet was illiterate, so he wouldn't be accused of having written the Quran himself.

If you think The Prophet added Jerusalem himself in the Hadeeth's just to increase his power, you will have to explain why he didn't delete the verse in the Quran in which God says he will return the Jews to Israel. That verse more than anything else, is the reason why Muslim's cannot reject the state of Israel for ever. Sooner or later they will have to accept it as God's will and that prophecy will come to pass.

Jerusalem IS referred to in the Quran, "the furtherst mosque" is the Al Aqsa, in this verse and further explained in the Hadeeth's below.......and i apologise to anyone who may think this is proselytising.....

(Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a journey by night from the sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who Heareth and Seeth (all things)) (Al-Israa' 17:1).

also

The status of Al-Aqsa is clearly explained in the hadith that reads:
"People are not to travel except to three mosques: The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem), and my Mosque (in Madinah)."

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 02:19 PM

So it was an invisible pen?

Muslima

11-30-2005, 02:54 PM

So it was an invisible pen?

The Prophet had scribes who wrote down the verses when they were revealed to him by God via the Angel Gibreel. The verses were also learnt off by heart as they are today.

Of the first Quran's compiled, there are 2 still in existence today, one in Istanbul, and the other i think in Tashkent. Not one syllable has changed if you compare them to any Quran in the world.

Tell me , are these the sort of questions that you asked at your yeshiva?;)

atricnorth

11-30-2005, 04:50 PM

muslima, good thing you live in england, as your exposure is different

i challenge you to go to pakistan and indonesia for that matter.

i am worried, you wont have an opinion there, as it is conservative.

i have live with muslims before, you should realise that most muslims where i live are nationalist and are strict religious.

my goodness they still practice polygamy.

try malaysia or indonesia.

Toga

11-30-2005, 05:01 PM

The Prophet had scribes who wrote down the verses when they were revealed to him by God via the Angel Gibreel. The verses were also learnt off by heart as they are today.

Of the first Quran's compiled, there are 2 still in existence today, one in Istanbul, and the other i think in Tashkent. Not one syllable has changed if you compare them to any Quran in the world.

Tell me , are these the sort of questions that you asked at your yeshiva?;)

When will you learn that this forum is not interested what you living in a predominantly Christian land far away from the the Islamic/Arab world have to say about Islam or your prophet which Jews do not recognize?

I don't want to motivate you to start another debate about your religion on here cause you have absolutely nothing to offer except some misinterpretations of our beliefs.

Toga

11-30-2005, 05:05 PM

Not everything is mentioned literally in The QUran ,
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hadeeths by the Prophet.

It is a common fallacy that some people believe, that just because Jerusalem is not literally mentioned in the Quran , it means nothing to us.

I'd post the Hadeeth's here, but i may be accused of proselytising so i won't:)

Yes, that is what you do best. You proselytize and repeat your fairy tales.

Mediocrates

11-30-2005, 05:10 PM

There is nothing wrong with an earnest faith. Just don't bank on finding many followers here.

Mira

11-30-2005, 05:39 PM

Mira

11-30-2005, 05:40 PM

Yes, that is what you do best. You proselytize and repeat your fairy tales.

I don't think she's proselytizing, but then you have a hair trigger about that sort of thing, toga.

Toga

11-30-2005, 06:32 PM

So there is a guy who moves from Azerbaijan to Netanya and becomes disenchanted with the secular lifestyle in that city so he moves to Kiryat Arba of all places. There, he becomes disillusioned with the Judaism of the people living in that community and starts studying Islam because he is impressed by the relative civility of a simple Muslim man working in a local garage. He moves to Abu Gosh, then he leaves because the people there hate Jews, but they disguise their hatred because the local Jews give them a good living. He claims that Islam among the Arabs in Palestine is weak and that the Arabs should not be the only guardians of Islam, but he now chooses to build his community with them in Hebron. I don't know what to do with people who have no proper place in this world. Maybe they will eventually find each other.

LOL! Well, you have to understand his complexed background. The man was traumatized by the Soviet regime from the very beginning of his life. He was messed up by the communist ideology. When it disintegrated he moved to Israel not because he wanted to live a Jewish life and improve himself spriritually but because he was searching for the economic benefits. However, in Azerbaijan he probably had many Muslim friends. Than he comes to Israel, a free-enterprise individualistic society. Apparently, it was hard for him to adjust. So, he found a community of some sort which meets his needs. If he found happiness then good for him. The problem is that while searching for a way out of his depression and misery and hopefully finding what he was looking for he has messed up the identity of kids in the process.

Toga

11-30-2005, 06:39 PM

I don't think she's proselytizing, but then you have a hair trigger about that sort of thing, toga.

Hon, even the name she picked speaks volumes. Also, take a look at the websites she peddles on here. Personally I find her sort of funny and gutsy. You have to have the chutzpa to market to Jews the prophet the Jews rejected, the religion the Jews don't accept and this:

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

President Musharraf

minusthejihad

11-30-2005, 08:22 PM

ygalg1

11-30-2005, 09:54 PM

God does say in the Quran that he will return the Jews to Israelunder which rule the Jews will live in Israel?

The land of Israel is sacred to Muslim's too

The implications of that suit?

Mira

12-01-2005, 04:28 AM

LOL! Well, you have to understand his complexed background. The man was traumatized by the Soviet regime from the very beginning of his life. He was messed up by the communist ideology. When it disintegrated he moved to Israel not because he wanted to live a Jewish life and improve himself spriritually but because he was searching for the economic benefits. However, in Azerbaijan he probably had many Muslim friends. Than he comes to Israel, a free-enterprise individualistic society. Apparently, it was hard for him to adjust. So, he found a community of some sort which meets his needs. If he found happiness then good for him. The problem is that while searching for a way out of his depression and misery and hopefully finding what he was looking for he has messed up the identity of kids in the process.

Maybe he had penis envy on account of all the bad mohels in the former Soviet Union? Toga, I was just paraphrasing what the guy actually said in the article. What are you doing?

Toga

12-01-2005, 07:41 AM

Maybe he had penis envy on account of all the bad mohels in the former Soviet Union? Toga, I was just paraphrasing what the guy actually said in the article. What are you doing?

I know. He should have sought professional help.

Achihud

12-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Finally, About Bernard Lewis,
Yes i agree he is a know historian who has his finger on the pulse. His own words:

"Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."

:) "Before the end of the century, no European will offer a muslim, a job ever again."
You can write it down; Achihud.

They all will beg to become christians asap. In the mean time...street prices will vary from 5 to 10 euro's for pleasure with the islamic delusion.

(no smilie added here...)

Muslima

12-06-2005, 11:53 AM

Of course! :)

Then i'd be interested in hearinbg what the Rebbe had to say to your "questions":)

Muslima

12-06-2005, 12:00 PM

under which rule the Jews will live in Israel?

The implications of that suit?

Well Ygalg, which rule would you like to live under? and before you answer remember your ancestors had no qualms about living under Islamic rule in Jerusalem for over a millenia:)

Seriously though, there are differing schools of thought on this......

The verse in the Quran doesn't say who should have sovereignty of the land. Neither did the Prophet, therefore anything not clearly spelt out by God and the Prophet is interpreted by the scholars. For Sunni's the final say on that is the Al Azhar mufti. That doesn't mean his word is binding, it's still open to interpretation.

1. Some believe, Islam should have sovereignty of the land. That doesn't mean Jews and Christians and others can't live there. They just can't have sovereignty because they reject the 2 Prophets or rather the Jews lost the right to sovereignty because they rejected the Messiah (Jesus) prophesised in the Torah

2. Some believe God gave the land to the Jews hence Jews should have the sovereignty.

What they do all agree on however is that the Jews do have the right to live in the land. That is not in question since God says so himself in the Quran, and that's why when Omar ibn Al Khattab conquered Jerusalem from the Roman's , he sent a message to the Jewish leaders telling them that their exile was over amd they could return. The Christians in the City objected to this, but he overuled them.
In any case, he laid the foundations to the Al Aqsa mosque, and the Jews in the city helped build it.

Muslima

12-06-2005, 12:09 PM

"Before the end of the century, no European will offer a muslim, a job ever again."
You can write it down; Achihud.

They all will beg to become christians asap. In the mean time...street prices will vary from 5 to 10 euro's for pleasure with the islamic delusion.

(no smilie added here...)

Oh Achihud,

You clearly have no inkling of the Islamic investments, businesses etc etc. in Europe.......or of the Muslim contribution.......duhhhhhhh

Big smile added here:)

KettleWhistle

12-06-2005, 12:25 PM

The status of Al-Aqsa is clearly explained in the hadith that reads:
"People are not to travel except to three mosques: The Sacred Mosque (in Makkah), Al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem), and my Mosque (in Madinah)."

I think you forgot to mention that Al-Aqsa Mosque was built, and was named that, AFTER Mohamed died.

P.S. And what are all these Muslims doing travelling to Europe, Asia, etc.?

Mediocrates

12-06-2005, 12:39 PM

The Temple Mount is THE MOST HOLY SITE IN ALL OF JUDAISM. Straight up and down according to EVERY SINGLE written word, EVERY SINGLE tradition in Judaism.

Our #1 beats your #4 or 27 any day of any week any where on the planet.

ygalg1

12-06-2005, 12:40 PM

Well Ygalg, which rule would you like to live under? and before you answer remember your ancestors had no qualms about living under Islamic rule in Jerusalem for over a millenia:).
The Israeli rule! I take it, you acknowledge of the presence of the Jews living Jerusalem for over a millennia? Thatâ€™s a progress. Jews lived under different empires, there were good and bad times of each. Nevertheless Jews longing for returning to the land with no foreign ruler!

1. Some believe, Islam should have sovereignty of the land. That doesn't mean Jews and Christians and others can't live there. They just can't have sovereignty because they reject the 2 Prophets.

If you and Christians had â€œnational revelationâ€ as we had, there might have been a progress.

2. Some believe God gave the land to the Jews hence Jews should have the sovereignty.

Those, who following this line of believe, are true monotheistic.

Womble

12-06-2005, 01:01 PM

Well Ygalg, which rule would you like to live under? and before you answer remember your ancestors had no qualms about living under Islamic rule in Jerusalem for over a millenia:)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I've demonstrated some exampled of this "absence of qualms" before. Not enough, it seems. Here are some new ones:

Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Tunisia#Under_Islam):

The accession of the Almohade dynasty to the throne of the Maghreb provinces in 1146 proved very disastrous to the Jews of Tunis. In pursuance of a fanciful belief, of which there is no trace in Muslim tradition, the first Almohade, 'Abd al-Mu'min, claimed that Mohammed had permitted the Jews free exercise of their religion for only five hundred years, and had declared that if, after that period, the Messiah had not come, they were to be forced to embrace Islam. Accordingly Jews as well as Christians were compelled either to embrace Islam or to leave the country. 'Abd al-Mu'min's successors pursued the same course, and their severe measures resulted either in emigration or in forcible conversions. Soon becoming suspicious of the sincerity of the new converts, the Almohades compelled them to wear a special garb, with a yellow cloth for a head-covering.

Turkey: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey)

All the favor shown to individual Jews... did not affect the lot of the community as a whole, whose fate depended on the caprice of a despotic ruler. Sultan Murad III, for instance, on one occasion ordered the execution of all the Jews in the empire merely because he was annoyed by the luxury which they displayed in their clothing. It was only after the intervention of Solomon Ashkenazi and other influential Jews with the grand vizier, seconded by the payment of a large sum of money, that the order was changed into a law restricting dress.

That's Turkey, Muslima, where the Jews were treated better than in the rest of the Muslim world- and yet a wholesale slaughter of Jews was ordered on a ruler's whim. No qualms my donkey.

Yemen: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teimanim#Yemenite_Jews_and_Maimonides)

At the beginning of the nineteenth century the condition of the Jews of Yemen was miserable. They were under the jurisdiction of the local Muslim Imam, and they were forbidden to wear new or good clothes, nor might they ride a donkey or a mule. They were compelled to make long journeys on foot when occasion required it. They were prohibited from engaging in monetary transactions, and were all mechanics, being employed chiefly as carpenters, masons, and smiths.

minusthejihad

12-06-2005, 01:18 PM

Muslima talks as if she still lives in the old glory days of the caliph! It must sound nice to talk from that perspective but its just wishful thinking. The Golden Age of Islam is long gone and you live in Westernizing world whether you accept it or not. I often find it funny, and I'm not talking about Muslima, but when fundamentalists talk about the invasion of western ideals in their culture, but have no qualms using the technology it provides for their own evil purposes.

Muslima

12-06-2005, 01:18 PM

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I've demonstrated some exampled of this "absence of qualms" before. Not enough, it seems. Here are some new ones:

Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Tunisia#Under_Islam):

The accession of the Almohade dynasty to the throne of the Maghreb provinces in 1146 proved very disastrous to the Jews of Tunis. In pursuance of a fanciful belief, of which there is no trace in Muslim tradition, the first Almohade, 'Abd al-Mu'min, claimed that Mohammed had permitted the Jews free exercise of their religion for only five hundred years, and had declared that if, after that period, the Messiah had not come, they were to be forced to embrace Islam. Accordingly Jews as well as Christians were compelled either to embrace Islam or to leave the country. 'Abd al-Mu'min's successors pursued the same course, and their severe measures resulted either in emigration or in forcible conversions. Soon becoming suspicious of the sincerity of the new converts, the Almohades compelled them to wear a special garb, with a yellow cloth for a head-covering.

Turkey: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey)

All the favor shown to individual Jews... did not affect the lot of the community as a whole, whose fate depended on the caprice of a despotic ruler. Sultan Murad III, for instance, on one occasion ordered the execution of all the Jews in the empire merely because he was annoyed by the luxury which they displayed in their clothing. It was only after the intervention of Solomon Ashkenazi and other influential Jews with the grand vizier, seconded by the payment of a large sum of money, that the order was changed into a law restricting dress.

That's Turkey, Muslima, where the Jews were treated better than in the rest of the Muslim world- and yet a wholesale slaughter of Jews was ordered on a ruler's whim. No qualms my donkey.

Yemen: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teimanim#Yemenite_Jews_and_Maimonides)

At the beginning of the nineteenth century the condition of the Jews of Yemen was miserable. They were under the jurisdiction of the local Muslim Imam, and they were forbidden to wear new or good clothes, nor might they ride a donkey or a mule. They were compelled to make long journeys on foot when occasion required it. They were prohibited from engaging in monetary transactions, and were all mechanics, being employed chiefly as carpenters, masons, and smiths.

Ummmmmmm Womble,

I was talking about Islamic rule over JERUSALEM ONLY, in that post.

Look, i know that there were certain times in Islamic history when we had these rulers like the examples you gave, but they are not hero's nor do we consider them exemplery leaders. In fact in the first one, about the Tunis Jews it says,
"'Abd al-Mu'min, claimed that Mohammed had permitted the Jews free exercise of their religion for only five hundred years,"

Of course this is total nonsense that, Abd al Mumin made up. The facts are there for anyone to check.
What happened in India was also abominable.

I don't deny we've had our fair share of trash Womble, but again any system of rule is open to abuse. Even so, Islamic rule was generally very kind and tolerant, the trash notwithstanding.

savvy

12-06-2005, 01:49 PM

Womble

12-06-2005, 02:00 PM

Ummmmmmm Womble,

I was talking about Islamic rule over JERUSALEM ONLY, in that post.
Jerusalem was in the Ottoman empire, so the Jews there were generally treated better than in the rest of the Muslim world, yes- but it was not as much a "Muslim" trait as a "Turkish" one. The Muslim Turks were a lot more tolerant than the Muslim Arabs in this regard, and Turkey was the only country in the region where accusing Jews of ritual murders of non-Jews was not tolerated by the authorities (in 1633, when some Muslim clerics tried to set up a blood libel trial complete with pogroms, the sultan was so quick and fierce in punishing the guilty that the accusations did not resurface for some 150 years after that.)

Jerusalem, however, was a different matter, and it was during the same very sultan (Murad IV) that the Jews of Jerusalem were persecuted more than ever. You see, the governorship of Jerusalem was for sale to the highest bidder. Whenever the buyer was a Turk or a Kurd, the Jews were treated tolerably- but they were persecuted harshly each time an Arab bought the title. That lasted until about 1700, when the overall treatment of Jews in the empire began getting worse, new discriminatory laws were introduced and attacks on Jews became more frequent.

Muslima

12-06-2005, 03:01 PM

Okay Muslima come out and say it. You want a Caliph re-established don't you, and you Muslims r trying very hard in England and Europe. You hate America becoz they won't appease you and bend before your lies like the sisses in Europe will. You are waiting for Muslims to invade Europe so that ur Madhi Al- Dajjal can come and destroy Christianity and kill the jews. Aren't u Muslima, just admit it.?

LOL are you a fan of extreme anti-muslim literature? for sure you are!

The Al Dajjal is the anti-Christ, and we know what he will look like. We also know he will live on earth for 3 years before the return of Christ. Muslim's believe he is the Messiah , (returning to fulfil his mission) who will rule from Jerusalem, and his rule will be a golden age for humanity.
That's one of the prophecies we have. I suggest you read about it properly before raising the subject. It is true, that the Al Dajjal will attract many Jewish followers because he will con them into thinking he is the Messiah. It is equally true, that he will be defeated and killed by Christ. But what does this have to do with Europe or USA or events today? This will happen in Jerusalem, and the anti-christ (al dajjal) will rise from the area where Syria is. It has nothing to do with Europe or USA.

Please do not mix up or distort prophecies.

Muslim's aren't trying any harder in Europe or UK than we have ever done in any land.

As for your comments on hating American's , that's nonsense. Remember there are 7 million Muslim's in the USA , the largest minority. They are wealthier and better educated than native American's.
Do you not know how much the foreign Islamic investments total in the USA? I guess i don't need to tell you the influence they wield. I havn't even mentioned the oil yet, and the numbers of american's who convert to Islam is the highest of any faith:) ,
i'd say the USA is going the same way Europe is,

Muslim's invading Europe? What are you talking about? Why should we invade friendly states, who are converting anyway:)

duhhhhhhhhhh get real Savvy,

Oh and i'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly curious to know what you have against a Caliphate?
When you talk like that, you sound as intolerant as........well.....someone who feeds on a lot of paranoia and conspiracy theories??

How about you invest some time, and read some pro Islamic stuff for once in a while?

Muslima

12-06-2005, 03:04 PM

ARE ARABS ANTI-AMERICAN?

By AMIR TAHERI

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/53185.htm

President Bush's "image queen," Karen Hughes, is on a tour of Arab countries, where conventional wisdom claims that anti-Americanism is second nature. Hughes, now in charge of public diplomacy at the State Department, plainly she shares that analysis â€” why else choose the Arab region for her maiden voyage?

But how true is that claim? Are Arabs the most anti-American people on earth? READ MORE

Start with the tangibles. America is by far the largest pole of attraction for Arab foreign investment at all levels, from public-sector funds to small private savings accounts. The most conservative estimates put the value of Arab assets in the United States at over $4.5 trillion, which puts the Arab countries just behind Britain, Japan and Holland as the biggest investors in the U.S. economy.

The United States is also one of the top three trading partners of virtually all Arab states. In fact, many U.S.-made goods (cars, for example) that don't sell anywhere else still enjoy robust markets in Arab countries.

Then, too, America has been the No. 1 foreign tourist destination for Arabs since the 1980s, and has remained so despite restrictions imposed on Arab visitors after 9/11. Arabs from all walks of life and of all political sensibilities also love to send their children to study in America. And when it comes to seeking medical treatment, no country competes with the United States in attracting well-heeled Arabs.

If she takes time to stroll in Arab capitals, Hughes would be struck by the ubiquitous presence of things American. It is possible to spend a holiday in most Arab capitals without moving out of the orbit of American-franchised hotels, restaurants, tourist services and banks. A stroll in modern shopping malls would reveal a population wearing American-style clothing, including baseball caps, with Motorola mobile phones pressed to ears, as New Orleans jazz plays in the background. She could sip one of those coffees the choice of which requires a PhD at a Starbucks, or indulge herself in a Hagen-Dazs of her choice.

More than 70 percent of what's broadcast on Arab TV stations (including those regarded as "obsessively anti-American") is U.S.-made; 80 percent of the films shown in Arab cinemas are made in Hollywood. There are more than two dozen English dailies, all using the American version of the language. Go through them, and you see that much of the content comes from U.S. agencies and syndication services.

Even Arabic-language newspapers serve as outlets for American journalism. More than half of all major articles in the two main pan-Arab daily newspapers come from The New York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, Newsweek and Time magazines and other U.S. publications. Some American columnists have become household names in most Arab countries.

Hughes is also bound to be struck by the number of Arab decision-makers with American educational or business backgrounds and/or connections.

Only God and the U.S. immigration service would know how many Arabs hold green cards or even dual Arab-U.S. citizenship. With the possible exception of Libya, which has a weird regime, and Syria, whose leaders fear they may be targeted for "regime change," almost all Arab regimes are well-disposed toward the United States. Sixteen of the 21 member states of the Arab League host some U.S. military presence. The FBI maintains offices in at least 12 Arab capitals.

So, where did the impression that the Arabs are seething with anti-Americanism come from? Isn't it possible that the Arabs may be sharing the anti-American craze produced in the West, including the United States? Aren't the Arabs, as with so many other products, importing anti-Americanism?

In Arab newspapers, the bulk of the material that could be classified as anti-Bush and/or anti-American is translated from U.S. sources. Stroll in the streets where books and video and audio tapes are on sale at the curbsides and you will see that 90 percent of the items vilifying America come from American, French and British authors.

No Arab anti-American has produced anything like the conspiracy theories that American intellectuals such as Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Scott Ritter, Seymour Hersh and Edward Said, to name a few, have put on the markets everywhere, including the Arab world.

At any given time, one can find a horde of American activists visiting the region to urge the natives to hate America:

* Two years ago, a group of Americans appeared in Arab capitals to stop people in the bazaars to "apologize for the Crusades," although the United States didn't even exist when those wars were fought between Europe and the Middle East.

* Before the liberation of Iraq, scores of Americans came to Baghdad to offer themselves as "human shields" for Saddam Hussein. No Arab was so foolish.

* This month, a group of 30 American professors turned up in Tehran and Damascus to describe the United States as "a rogue state on the rampage".

* Bianca Jagger, presented as ambassador for UNICEF and "a leading thinker," has been in the region telling astonished audiences that the United States is the source of all evil in the world. (By the way, isn't UNICEF supposed to be apolitical?)

* One American professor recently published an op-ed in The New York Times relating his trip to Iran, where he was "disappointed" to see that students not only did not hate George W. Bush but, horror of horrors, also craved for an American-style democracy instead of an Islamist utopia.

* The anti-Bush demonstrations that Arabs watch on TV take place in Washington, San Francisco and Seattle, not in any Arab city.

* A friend, who happens to be a minister in an Arab state, was saddened this summer when, spending holidays with his family in the United States as he had always done since student days, he had to quarrel with an old American schoolmate. The point of the dispute was that the American insisted that the United States was an "evil empire," while the Arab believed that it could be a force for reform in the Middle East.

* Last month, an Iraqi journalist gave up his American scholarship and returned home because faculty members in the U.S. university he attended made him feel "guilty for having been liberated from Saddam Hussein."

* A Kuwaiti friend withdrew his son from an American university to "protect him from [being] brainwashed into hating the United States."

Many polls have been conducted to show that the Arabs are anti-American. A more interesting poll would aim at finding out how many Americans are so afflicted by self-loathing as to devote their energies to a systematic vilification of their nation.

The best that Karen Hughes could do is to help make available to the Arabs the other side of the American debate; to show that not all Americans share Chomsky's belief that the United States planned to kill 6 million Afghans solely to build a pipeline from Central Asia. Her aim should be to help Arabs understand America in all its contradictions, not necessarily to adore it.

There are many issues on which the Arabs disagree with the United States. But most Arabs don't see that as a sign of anti-Arabism on the part of America. Hughes should not regard it as a sign of anti-Americanism on the part of Arabs.

Iranian author Amir Taheri is a member of Benador Associates.

Achihud

12-06-2005, 04:14 PM

Oh Achihud,

You clearly have no inkling of the Islamic investments, businesses etc etc. in Europe.......or of the Muslim contribution.......duhhhhhhh

Big smile added here:) Oh Muslima,

If your trust is put in those kind of things, investment, conversion, birth rates.......I can only wish you stay that way.......duhhhhhhh

Even bigger smile added here :)

Cato

12-06-2005, 06:12 PM

Muslima I must admit that Amir Taheris is a smart man, an intellectual (unlike the much more popular Tariq Ramadan, who has dedicated himself to helping spread Islamic Extremism), however many things he wrote has been essentially aimed at making people question their beliefs more then anything else.

For example he wrote an article asking "is it also possible that the Israelis are hated because they are pro-American and pro-West?", which is kind of contradicted by this article.

"* Bianca Jagger, presented as ambassador for UNICEF and "a leading thinker," has been in the region telling astonished audiences that the United States is the source of all evil in the world. (By the way, isn't UNICEF supposed to be apolitical?)"

You must have missed the UN in UNICEF if you were suprised at all by that.

Muslima you would concede that the major issue that Arabs disagree with the US on is Israel, and the jews being allowed to live right?

Muslima

12-06-2005, 11:59 PM

Muslima you would concede that the major issue that Arabs disagree with the US on is Israel, and the jews being allowed to live right?

Cato, don't underestimate Muslim influence over the USA:)

You say "Arab's" but you seem to ignore, it's not just ARab's , we unite by faith.

Muslim/Arab countries don't want to deny Jews the right to live. Choose your word's carefully Cato. Disagreeing with sovereignty right's doesn't mean denying the right to live.

Oh, and don't forget, it isn't just Arab's who disagree with American policies, what about other Muslim countries? What about China, ?
but anyway, i know that's not the point you raised, ....

1. There is Arab/Muslim anger against US Mid East Policy in the Mid East. This does not mean, that Arab's hate American's.

2. US support for Israel is not unconditional Cato, Arab's and Muslims know that.

3. I'd say there is more anger at the way they perceive the USA propping up dictatorships, and hindering progress. For example, selling military hardware to a regime , then criticising it for not allowing democracy. This in turn breeds extremism and causes internal problems, which are then manifested to the outside world. Islam actually does not allow dictatorship. They see that as an oppression.

minusthejihad

12-07-2005, 08:41 AM

Cato, don't underestimate Muslim influence over the USA:)

Haha! The only influence comes from politically correct scare tactics that have become a CAIR mainstay. People are catching on and won't be tolerating it anymore.

Muslim/Arab countries don't want to deny Jews the right to live.

Right, they just don't want them to live.... as Jooos!

1. There is Arab/Muslim anger against US Mid East Policy in the Mid East. This does not mean, that Arab's hate American's.

Who cares what they think anyway. Their main contribution to civilization in today's age is "Boom!"

Islam actually does not allow dictatorship. They see that as an oppression.

Muslim's don't know any better form of government. Nor do they deserve it in my opinion.

ygalg1

12-07-2005, 11:06 AM

Cato, don't underestimate Muslim influence over the USA:)

:mad: What with the Jews control America? you have Europe! leave america to us!...;)

minusthejihad

12-07-2005, 11:12 AM

At this rate, The US and Israel will be the last bastions of freedom from Islamists.

savvy

12-07-2005, 01:44 PM

LOL are you a fan of extreme anti-muslim literature? for sure you are!

I have got this stuff from muslim literature, and what I have against the Caliph is the notion that all other religions must be abolished and non-muslims will be treated differently from Muslims. Islam divides ppl into two camps: Muslim and non-muslims, rather than human beings.
your dajjal is the jewish messiah. Islam turns the good guys into bad guys and the bad guys into good guys, evil evil religion.

Muslima

12-07-2005, 02:11 PM

I have got this stuff from muslim literature, and what I have against the Caliph is the notion that all other religions must be abolished and non-muslims will be treated differently from Muslims. Islam divides ppl into two camps: Muslim and non-muslims, rather than human beings.
your dajjal is the jewish messiah. Islam turns the good guys into bad guys and the bad guys into good guys, evil evil religion.

I don't for a minute believe that you get your stuff from "muslim literature".

Tell me where.......oh wait i know you won't, for they will all be hate mongering sites.

Islam turn's the good guys into the bad? Stop distorting!

A prophecy is an event that will happen. Prophecies don't paint people good or bad, what the hell does that mean? We have many and they are all coming true one by one.

If the anti-Christ can con people, why are you blaming Islam? what exactly is your point? This prophecy doesn't turn Jews into the "bad guys" that is your interpretation. The QUran was sent to warn and guide. Not to turn good guys into "bad guys"

Muslima

12-07-2005, 02:13 PM

:mad: What with the Jews control America? you have Europe! leave america to us!...;)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?? you actually admit that Ygalg?;)

H'mmmmmmmmm, now you're in serious trouble with your peers lol

savvy

12-07-2005, 03:30 PM

If the anti-Christ can con people, why are you blaming Islam?

Think very carefully about what u just said. Is it possible that ur being conned?

Muslima

12-08-2005, 08:44 AM

Think very carefully about what u just said. Is it possible that ur being conned?

Think very carefully about what you just said Savvy.

Is it possible that you are being brainwashed?

As i said the Quran was sent to save humanity. You included. That was it's purpose for those who believe in it. It wasn't sent to sent to label people the way you did. Just for the record, there are about 50 minor prophecies and 10 major ones before the end or so we believe. They're coming true one by one. But anyway, it rests on faith. If you don't believe in them, since you are not a Muslim , it shouldn't matter to you, so i'm surprised at your reaction.

I think you need to learn what the word prophecy means and not just mouth off because you don't like what you hear.

Mediocrates

12-08-2005, 08:48 AM

When will you get it through your thick goddamn skull I don't want or need to be saved by you? What will it take? Murder? Suicide Bombings? Will it sink in then? Is that what you understand?

Muslima

12-09-2005, 09:27 AM

When will you get it through your thick goddamn skull I don't want or need to be saved by you? What will it take? Murder? Suicide Bombings? Will it sink in then? Is that what you understand?

Med,

I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU

Mira

12-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Think very carefully about what you just said Savvy.

Is it possible that you are being brainwashed?

As i said the Quran was sent to save humanity. You included. That was it's purpose for those who believe in it. It wasn't sent to sent to label people the way you did. Just for the record, there are about 50 minor prophecies and 10 major ones before the end or so we believe. They're coming true one by one. But anyway, it rests on faith. If you don't believe in them, since you are not a Muslim , it shouldn't matter to you, so i'm surprised at your reaction.

I think you need to learn what the word prophecy means and not just mouth off because you don't like what you hear.

On that topic, what is your interpretation of the following:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Mediocrates

12-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Med,

I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU

I heard it anyway. Too damn bad for all of us. Boo hoo.

Muslima

12-09-2005, 10:05 AM

I heard it anyway. Too damn bad for all of us. Boo hoo.

ummmm Med, i just noticed your post count,

wow, 17,000 +

do they offer prizes here for the most prolific poster?;)

Mediocrates

12-09-2005, 10:09 AM

No they work work work you to the bone sewing shoes for 30 cents an hour in Guatamala. Hey it's a living.

CLL1709

12-10-2005, 10:32 AM

I don't for a minute believe that you get your stuff from "muslim literature".

Tell me where.......oh wait i know you won't, for they will all be hate mongering sites.

Islam turn's the good guys into the bad? Stop distorting!

A prophecy is an event that will happen. Prophecies don't paint people good or bad, what the hell does that mean? We have many and they are all coming true one by one.

If the anti-Christ can con people, why are you blaming Islam? what exactly is your point? This prophecy doesn't turn Jews into the "bad guys" that is your interpretation. The QUran was sent to warn and guide. Not to turn good guys into "bad guys"

No doubt Muslima also believes Islam is the religion of Peace.

Muslima

12-10-2005, 01:59 PM

No doubt Muslima also believes Islam is the religion of Peace.

You mean to say you don't?

Shock......and ........awe ;)

Muslima

12-10-2005, 03:47 PM

On that topic, what is your interpretation of the following:

Quote:
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Mira i already answered that, in post #125 below, to Ygalg