Constitution

[ygalg1]

Does Israel needs to have Constitution?

How it will benefit Israel as state? What are the implications to have one?

Basic laws for instance can reshape to adjust to environment fit to curtain situation while Constitution unchangeable as the torah or maybe we should declare torah as our Constitution?

[Mil]

Britain also does not have a constitution but Common Law.

[Cato]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.

[ygalg1]

Britain also does not have a constitution but Common Law.

If Britain can live without it... so is we I... assume (hmm)
would you say that a state without constitution cannot define democratic?

[ygalg1]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.

is Greece democratic? there are laws of torah been instituted in israel like shabbat as national day off

[ygalg1]

Is it possible constitution might damage Israel instead of been advantageous? apropos of enemy states might use it against us? Or criminals misuse it?

[Mediocrates]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.


What role do you think a Constitution is supposed to enshrine?

[Muslima]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.

So when the Moschiach rules , (it will be Torah law) , does that mean that you think his rule will be inferior to a democracy?

Look forward to your comments......

[Mira]

So when the Moschiach rules , (it will be Torah law) , does that mean that you think his rule will be inferior to a democracy?

Who knows? We will probably be too busy dancing around the maypole in our underware to give a rat's arse.

[mbczion]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.

Well, then maybe Israel should be a Torah state?

Who says democracy is the end all form of government?

[minusthejihad]

So when the Moschiach rules , (it will be Torah law) , does that mean that you think his rule will be inferior to a democracy?

Look forward to your comments......


Ha! That would be the day. You religious people are so gullible! Enjoy the wait. Of course I've heard around the net that the new prez of Iran thinks he is the next Messiah (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=18413_Ahmadinejad-_I_Am_the_Messiah&only)!

[Overload]

We are perfectly fine without a Constitution, and the Torah is not compatible with Democracy.

On what basis do you make such a claim?

[Cato]

"is Greece democratic?"

The answer to your question is yes, and I am only in Greece for this school year, it is part of a program to build understanding, there are a bunch of Israelis in Europe building up understanding, it makes me a better Israeli citizen.

"there are laws of torah been instituted in israel like shabbat as national day off"

Those laws are compatible with democracy. Making a womans testimony virtually wothless, stonning for adultery, and countless other evils within the Torah however not even the most ultra-religious nut will consider compatible with a democratic society like Israel. The Torah/Bible makes women little more then slaves of their husbands or fathers, which can not be less democratic because women are at least half of any population a majority in Israel. Not to mention the tough treatment of gays and lesbians by the Torah. The Torah, like the Koran and Bible and most religious texts is anti-democratic in nature.

"Is it possible constitution might damage Israel instead of been advantageous? apropos of enemy states might use it against us? Or criminals misuse it?"

You know the answer is yes.

"So when the Moschiach rules , (it will be Torah law) , does that mean that you think his rule will be inferior to a democracy?"

Everyone has his or her own interpretation of that. My interpretation is it will be Gods Law, and that God's Law is democracy, which is why from Ancient Athens outperforming everyone else including even the Persian Empire, Rome defeating Carthage, to Israel defeating it's Arab Enemies Democracy has prevailed.

"Well, then maybe Israel should be a Torah state?

Who says democracy is the end all form of government?"

Who says Israel needs a population then, since half of Israel would be on death row for excercising what in democratic Israel is their human rights, since the Torah hands out the death penalty for almost anything.

"On what basis do you make such a claim?"

Israel is doing much better then most nations, and a text that makes women virtually slaves, or hands out the death penalty for homosexuality is incompatible with democracy, wether the text is the Koran, Torah, Shinto Principles, or the New Testament. What makes Jews and Israel great is that they have resisted the trend of Religious Fundamentalism.

[mbczion]

The question is, is Israel REALLY a "democracy" or a superficial "democracy"?

Just because one paints the outside of a stone with gold paint does not make the stone pure gold, but fake gold....

[Cato]

The question is, is Israel REALLY a "democracy" or a superficial "democracy"?

Just because one paints the outside of a stone with gold paint does not make the stone pure gold, but fake gold....

Israel is as real a democracy as France, or the United States, or Greece.

Israel is not perfect, no democracy is, but it is a democracy.

[mbczion]

Israel is as real a democracy as France, or the United States, or Greece.

Israel is not perfect, no democracy is, but it is a democracy.

Israel might put on a show to be a democracy, but it is hardly a "democracy" in the sense that most people (especially those from Western countries would picture):

1) The Supreme Court system of the judges being handpicked by those already in the Supreme Court based not on objective scrutinization of one's ability as a judge, but on whether their political agenda jives with those already on the Supreme Court (this Aaron Barak and company) has got to go....The case of that judge Ruth Gavison (who happens to be a leftist and would usually, otherwise, fit the bill in Barak's eyes) being rejected as a judge on the SC because she had the gall to suggest that the SC system might be less than perfect....This results in the SC having a monolithic view, when it comes to religion and politics (i.e. secular/borderline anti-religious and far-left) and on top of that the SC rather than exercizing what is supposed to be their sole job of enforcing laws that are passed by the Knesset actually throws their weight around by approving or vetoing laws that were already passed by the majority....A perfect example was back a few years ago when the Knesset finally passed a law to legalize Arutz 7 (the only radio station that the Jew living in Judea and Samaria had to express their views), which had been trying to get a license to operate forever, but the SC vetoed it just like that....I'm sure the SC's political agenda had nothing to do with that decision :rolleyes:

2) There is no regional representation here....In any true democracy, each area votes for candidates who then can represent them in government, which we do not have here....

3) What Sharon did in the last two years, would never have happened in any other democracy. He ran on a platform the exact opposite of his opponent's (Mitzna's unilateral withdrawal platform) and then after winning the election's, adopts his opponents platform, fires every minister who disagrees with his sudden 180 degree change of direction (to being pro-unilateral withdrawal) and then has the hutzpa to call for a "referendum" on the "disengagement" (which I remind you, once again, that Sharon ran in the elections against) for Likud memebers only, and then has the hutzpa to ignore the results of the referendum (60% against, 40% for) and proceed with the Gaza expulsion any way....In any other democracy, a Prime Minister or President would be impeached, by the people, after having done what Sharon did....In Israel, the populace is basically powerless once the PM gets into power....You call this democracy :eek:

4) In any other western democracy, when it comes to an issue of giving up such a strategic part of land to the country (not mention historical and home to thousands of citizens including many who were born there and never knew another home), a national referendum would have been held....I guarantee you that if the United States needed to decided whether to give some little empty deserted area the size of a football field away to Mexico, there would be a national referendum on it....What is this baloney of 120 people deciding such a fateful move for Israel in general and eight thousand citizens, in particular....

5) The media in Israel is controlled by the secular/borderline anti-religious left....As shown above, Arutz 7 could not get a license to operate legally....The overwhelming majority of the media is owned by two families (Yediot Ahranot and Maariv), while the other paper, Haaretz, spends most of their time demonizing anyone who does not hold by the "enlightened view" (i.e. secular, far-left) as a danger to Israel....Channel 1, which runs on tax payer $ also has a bunch of garbage on it and tows a far-left line....While there are some papers (mekor rishon- which comes out once a week & HaTzofeh) which cater to alternative views, they are privately owned (not at the taxpayers expense) and few and far between....If you want alternative views on TV, you have to get cable and the Jews in Yesha have no way of expressing their views on the radio (legally)....Israel is even talking about regulating the Internet, which would mean that Arutz 7 (as well as any other site that doesn't jive with the Supreme Court's agenda) would most likely be closed down on the internet as well....Can you say Steve Orwell's 1984?!?!

6) Anyone who doesn't hold politically correct views in Israel has to fear of being bugged on the phone by the Shin Bet....Teenage girls are kept in prison for weeks on end, without a chance to appear in court, for disturbing traffic to protest Jews from being thrown out of their homes....If you say the wrong thing in this country, you can find yourself in jail for days, without a court appearance....

7) One who ends up in debt, gets thrown into jail, even before he has the chance to appear in court and plead his case....Many times people were mistakenly accused of owing large sums of money and ended up in prison (before having the chance to appear in court) for several days for money they didn't even owe :mad: Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the way things are here....

I could go on, but the hour is late and the day is short....

Cato, Israel is about as "real" a "democracy" as the former Soviet Union was; Israel is certainly not even close to America when it comes to democracy....

[Mediocrates]

So what do you mean by Democracy. BTW there are lots of Americans on the right who've been weaned on a steady diet of internet pseudo legalistic nonsense to the point where they believe that the US is not supposed to be a democracy but instead some kind of hybrid republic approaching the ideal of Pericles or Rome or something like that. But I'd ask what you mean precisely by democracy since you're talking about practices not design.

[Mediocrates]

I raised this very question myself years ago. It really goes to what you think a constitution is supposed to do. In the US the Constitution is rather unique actually because it doesn't spend a lot of time focussing on the bits and bytes of governmental management and process. Compare that to the constitution of some of the more enlightened arab states which go on for hundreds of articles about what each group is and is not allowed to do, when they do it and how. Even some of the European national constitutions are quite long and micro managing compared to the US. Because mostly they set out to do different things. In the US the Constitution is a framework for the structure of the various powers and responsibilities set forth in a 3 -way system of checks and balances in relation to the state governments. It's not designed to be a guidebook of standards and practices nor is it a compendium of all the laws.


BTW only one of the three types of laws in the US ever touch on the legislative process at all and so are democratic so in very significant ways many of the laws in the US are handed down as fiat - is that democratic?

[Overload]

"On what basis do you make such a claim?"

Israel is doing much better then most nations, and a text that makes women virtually slaves, or hands out the death penalty for homosexuality is incompatible with democracy, wether the text is the Koran, Torah, Shinto Principles, or the New Testament. What makes Jews and Israel great is that they have resisted the trend of Religious Fundamentalism.

Are you Jewish? If so than it is a crying shame that your knowledge of Judaism equals zero.

No, Judaism doesn't make women slaves, or hand out the death penalty for anything anymore. You've basically disregarded thousands of years of how Jewish society, the Oral Law, and interpertations of the great Torah scholars. In other words, you are incompetent to render an educated opinion on the subject.

But you are entitled to your preconceived notions and prejudices.

I mean I only majored on the subject of Judaism and government, wrote essays and read over a dozen books on the subject, but you made it all clear with a stroke of the generalized hand.

[mbczion]

So what do you mean by Democracy. BTW there are lots of Americans on the right who've been weaned on a steady diet of internet pseudo legalistic nonsense to the point where they believe that the US is not supposed to be a democracy but instead some kind of hybrid republic approaching the ideal of Pericles or Rome or something like that. But I'd ask what you mean precisely by democracy since you're talking about practices not design.

Do you mean what do I mean by Democracy in a technical/mechanical sense or a way of life (i.e. "value") sense?

[Overload]

So what do you mean by Democracy. BTW there are lots of Americans on the right who've been weaned on a steady diet of internet pseudo legalistic nonsense to the point where they believe that the US is not supposed to be a democracy but instead some kind of hybrid republic approaching the ideal of Pericles or Rome or something like that.

Legally speaking, until Roosevelt came to power, some even argue until the Civil War, the USA was a constitutional republic in practice. It followed many classical ideas, such as the mixed government of Plato and Socrates, and Enlightenment ideas as written by Locke. The Senate represented the states and the upper classes, the house represented the people and the president represented the Republic. Only property owners had the right to vote and no one was elected directly. It that sense, the USA was and is a constitutional representative republic.

Democracy until recently had a negative connotation because it meant mob rule.

But, if we were to describe a democratic or representative government, there are many characteristics to choose from and different catagories of democracies.

[Cato]

"1) The Supreme Court system of the judges being handpicked by those already in the Supreme Court based not on objective scrutinization of one's ability as a judge, but on whether their political agenda jives with those already on the Supreme Court (this Aaron Barak and company) has got to go....The case of that judge Ruth Gavison (who happens to be a leftist and would usually, otherwise, fit the bill in Barak's eyes) being rejected as a judge on the SC because she had the gall to suggest that the SC system might be less than perfect....This results in the SC having a monolithic view, when it comes to religion and politics (i.e. secular/borderline anti-religious and far-left) and on top of that the SC rather than exercizing what is supposed to be their sole job of enforcing laws that are passed by the Knesset actually throws their weight around by approving or vetoing laws that were already passed by the majority....A perfect example was back a few years ago when the Knesset finally passed a law to legalize Arutz 7 (the only radio station that the Jew living in Judea and Samaria had to express their views), which had been trying to get a license to operate forever, but the SC vetoed it just like that....I'm sure the SC's political agenda had nothing to do with that decision "

The Supreme Court is picked on objective scrutinization of ability, and you know that in any democracy the Supreme Court has authority to over rule illegal government actions. It is called having a strong Judiciary, and it is essential for any democracy.

"2) There is no regional representation here....In any true democracy, each area votes for candidates who then can represent them in government, which we do not have here...."

There are regional governments, and are you saying Athens was not a democracy?

"3) What Sharon did in the last two years, would never have happened in any other democracy. He ran on a platform the exact opposite of his opponent's (Mitzna's unilateral withdrawal platform) and then after winning the election's, adopts his opponents platform, fires every minister who disagrees with his sudden 180 degree change of direction (to being pro-unilateral withdrawal) and then has the hutzpa to call for a "referendum" on the "disengagement" (which I remind you, once again, that Sharon ran in the elections against) for Likud memebers only, and then has the hutzpa to ignore the results of the referendum (60% against, 40% for) and proceed with the Gaza expulsion any way....In any other democracy, a Prime Minister or President would be impeached, by the people, after having done what Sharon did....In Israel, the populace is basically powerless once the PM gets into power....You call this democracy"

Ariel Sharon was not elected on refusal to withdraw, he was elected on the condition that he is not Barak, and he was re-elected because Israelis believe he is doing an excellent job fighting terrorism. Even a democracy has to bow to it's own laws, the equivalent to Israelis living in Gaza Strip in lets say Greece would be if tommorow 50,000 Greeks decided to go make settlements in what they call Eastern Thrace (Istanbul/Constantinople region of Turkey) and using history to show that Constantinople was historically Greek and that it is Greek Land refuse to leave. In this case it would be the obligation of the Greek Government to lay down the letter of the law on it's citizens.

"4) In any other western democracy, when it comes to an issue of giving up such a strategic part of land to the country (not mention historical and home to thousands of citizens including many who were born there and never knew another home), a national referendum would have been held....I guarantee you that if the United States needed to decided whether to give some little empty deserted area the size of a football field away to Mexico, there would be a national referendum on it....What is this baloney of 120 people deciding such a fateful move for Israel in general and eight thousand citizens, in particular...."

Yes just like the French Unnilateral Withdrawal from Algeria when Charles De Gaulle didn't discuss it with Parliament or hold any type of polling or refrendum right? Or are you saying France is not a democracy either?

"5) The media in Israel is controlled by the secular/borderline anti-religious left....As shown above, Arutz 7 could not get a license to operate legally....The overwhelming majority of the media is owned by two families (Yediot Ahranot and Maariv), while the other paper, Haaretz, spends most of their time demonizing anyone who does not hold by the "enlightened view" (i.e. secular, far-left) as a danger to Israel....Channel 1, which runs on tax payer $ also has a bunch of garbage on it and tows a far-left line....While there are some papers (mekor rishon- which comes out once a week & HaTzofeh) which cater to alternative views, they are privately owned (not at the taxpayers expense) and few and far between....If you want alternative views on TV, you have to get cable and the Jews in Yesha have no way of expressing their views on the radio (legally)....Israel is even talking about regulating the Internet, which would mean that Arutz 7 (as well as any other site that doesn't jive with the Supreme Court's agenda) would most likely be closed down on the internet as well....Can you say Steve Orwell's 1984?!?!"

Just like in Britain, are you saying Britain is not a democracy?

"6) Anyone who doesn't hold politically correct views in Israel has to fear of being bugged on the phone by the Shin Bet....Teenage girls are kept in prison for weeks on end, without a chance to appear in court, for disturbing traffic to protest Jews from being thrown out of their homes....If you say the wrong thing in this country, you can find yourself in jail for days, without a court appearance...."

Perhaps you would like to see what would happen if 100 girls blocked off a major highway in Rome or Paris, or Athens, or London, they would be in jail for weeks, just like in Israel. Being female, and being young does not make you above the law.

I also find it incredibly ironic that someone who believes Israel should keep Gaza and the West Bank while denying Palestinians living their citizenship (I assume from zion being in your name you want Israel to be a jewish state) is attacking Israel, I mean you are advocating an undemocratic practice, yet hypocritically calling Israel the former soviet union.

"No, Judaism doesn't make women slaves, or hand out the death penalty for anything anymore. You've basically disregarded thousands of years of how Jewish society, the Oral Law, and interpertations of the great Torah scholars. In other words, you are incompetent to render an educated opinion on the subject.

But you are entitled to your preconceived notions and prejudices.

I mean I only majored on the subject of Judaism and government, wrote essays and read over a dozen books on the subject, but you made it all clear with a stroke of the generalized hand."

Jews have evolved since the first century, however the Torah and religious law has not, the Torah and Religious law can not be changed, nor has it ever changed, it is the same as it was in 1200 BCE Israel and Judea.

[KettleWhistle]

Israeli democracy is nothing short of an embarassement. There is no candidate voting, no separation of powers, and no true freedom of speach. And as a result there is an immense amount of corruption.

The constitution could be a good thing or a bad thing. It depends who will write it. If it will be the leftists, it will mean the end of Israel, period. Even the old-school left of backstubbing murdering dictators like Ben Gurion, incompetent clowns like Golda Meir and Dayan (whose incompetence caused the whole "Palestinian" issue), and possibly even traitors like Rabin, would've only come up with something that would keep their dictatorial rule, and severely limit the patriotic opposition.

The right wing would do better, but still not good enough, simply because the multitude of parties who'll have to form a coalition to accomplish anything, and thus the agendas of each one them will be worked into the final draft. And I can't see something that would include a heavy amount of religious rule being pushed on the population as a good thing. Any good, patriotic, ideas of the secular Zionist moderate right wing, will get diluted by niche-agenda-minded smaller parties.

[Cato]

Israeli democracy is nothing short of an embarassement. There is no candidate voting, no separation of powers, and no true freedom of speach. And as a result there is an immense amount of corruption.

The constitution could be a good thing or a bad thing. It depends who will write it. If it will be the leftists, it will mean the end of Israel, period. Even the old-school left of backstubbing murdering dictators like Ben Gurion, incompetent clowns like Golda Meir and Dayan (whose incompetence caused the whole "Palestinian" issue), and possibly even traitors like Rabin, would've only come up with something that would keep their dictatorial rule, and severely limit the patriotic opposition.

The right wing would do better, but still not good enough, simply because the multitude of parties who'll have to form a coalition to accomplish anything, and thus the agendas of each one them will be worked into the final draft. And I can't see something that would include a heavy amount of religious rule being pushed on the population as a good thing. Any good, patriotic, ideas of the secular Zionist moderate right wing, will get diluted by niche-agenda-minded smaller parties.

How ironic Kettle, your saying Israel is embarrassing, however your entire post is embarrassing.

No Candidate voting? I suppose then Ariel Sharon is running unoppossed.

No Freedom of Speech?

Ok just read Haaretz, or the Jerusalem Post, both of which openly criticize everything the government does.

No seperation of powers?

That is laughable since the Torah forbids almost everything the Israeli Government allows, if they are trying to be a theocracy they certainly suck at it.

How ironic that someone who advocates expelling all Palestinians from their homes during Ramadan would question Israeli Democracy, since what you want is not democracy.

[KettleWhistle]

No Candidate voting? I suppose then Ariel Sharon is running unoppossed.
Ariel Sharon was not elected by popular vote. No Israeli politician is. People can only vote for party lists, not for individual candidates. So, yes, THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING.


No Freedom of Speech?

Ok just read Haaretz, or the Jerusalem Post, both of which openly criticize everything the government does.

I can walk in front of the White House wearing a T-shirt that says "Kill Bush." In Israel saying something like "kill Peres," or "thank you Igal Amir," gets people arrested. Political parties like Kah (of whom I do not approve because they are religious) get outlawed. Jewish patriots like Tatiana Soskin get slammed with jail sentences for speaking their mind. Arutz Sheva is denied broadcasting lisense under false pretences, and is being harrassed for merely speaking out. YES, THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH FREEDOM OF SPEACH IN ISRAEL.


No seperation of powers?

Correct, there is no separation of powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_Of_Powers) in Israel.



That is laughable since the Torah forbids almost everything the Israeli Government allows, if they are trying to be a theocracy they certainly suck at it.

I wipe my behind with your Talmud, and couldn't care less what Torah forbids.


How ironic that someone who advocates expelling all Palestinians from their homes during Ramadan would question Israeli Democracy, since what you want is not democracy.

What I want is for an end to the Arab occupation of my native land. They have their countries. They should live there on equal terms, of which I couldn't care less what these may be, with other Arabs there.

[Cato]

"Ariel Sharon was not elected by popular vote. No Israeli politician is. People can only vote for party lists, not for individual candidates. So, yes, THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING."

Yes he was, he won the Likkud primaries and so was able to run as Likkud's head. So yes their is candidate voting. Because good old reliable Peretz the uncurruptable won the Labor Primaries he is running. Tell me, in the United States what would the difference between voting for the Democrats and John Kerry have been?

"I can walk in front of the White House wearing a T-shirt that says "Kill Bush." In Israel saying something like "kill Peres," or "thank you Igal Amir," gets people arrested. Political parties like Kah (of whom I do not approve because they are religious) get outlawed. Jewish patriots like Tatiana Soskin get slammed with jail sentences for speaking their mind. Arutz Sheva is denied broadcasting lisense under false pretences, and is being harrassed for merely speaking out. YES, THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH FREEDOM OF SPEACH IN ISRAEL."

Word for word what you have said is exactly the same as in Europe, especially France, are you saying France is not a democracy? I highly doubt American Law permits death threats. I know for a fact though that Kahn is a terror organization and an enemy of the state of Israel which is why it was banned, and the fact is that what you mentioned is jewish incitement against muslims.

"Correct, there is no separation of powers in Israel."

There is a seperation of powers. The Legislative (Knesset), executive (Prime Minister and the Government), and Judiciary (Supreme Court). There is total seperation of powers, and hypocritically your biggest complaint is when the Judiciary overrules the Legislative and Executive branches.

"I wipe my behind with your Talmud, and couldn't care less what Torah forbids."

What made you think I'm jewish? Besides I am completely secular, and I think you are lying and do care, because only Kahanists hold your views.

"What I want is for an end to the Arab occupation of my native land. They have their countries. They should live there on equal terms, of which I couldn't care less what these may be, with other Arabs there."

I suppose you advocate the Armenians and the Greeks ethnically cleansing the Turks from their native lands in Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace then right? You are an anti-democratic nut who wants to ethnically cleanse Israel's minorities, and your argument that the Arabs should be expelled from their homes because you base the map of Israel on the Torah (Another tell tale sign for spotting a Kahanist btw) is no more logical then advocating giving aide to an allied Greco-Arnenian effort to conquer Turkey and ethnically cleanse the Turks to send them back to Mongolia.

[mbczion]

Cato wrote:


The Supreme Court is picked on objective scrutinization of ability, and you know that in any democracy the Supreme Court has authority to over rule illegal government actions. It is called having a strong Judiciary, and it is essential for any democracy.

Oh, really? Well, I sure haven't noticed....Maybe, that is why the SC has come under critcism from Israelis all across the political spectrum (again, Ruth Gavison is a leftist) for being too exclusionary and a "good old boys network"....And what is this nonsense about the judges picking eachother? An outside party, like the Israeli Bar Association or such should be selecting the judges based on skill, not whether or not they are "in" with those already in the SC....And what is "illegal" about Arutz 7 getting a license if it was voted on by the Knesset? Clearly, the SC has a political agenda, which they throw their weight around with all the time....The Supreme Court is supposed to enforce any laws that have been passed, NOT make up their own laws or veto laws due to political prejudice....What a healthy democracy needs is a system of checks and balances like that of the United States where you have the executive, judicial and legistlative branch: executive (president) can veto laws passed by the legislative (congress), but if the congress votes in favor of a law (2/3 vote), then that overides the executive veto; the judiciary's function is to merely interpret and enforce the laws passed by the executive and/or legislative branches....So, it is a system of checks and balances, which is essential for any democracy; not a Prime Minister that rules with an iron fist and to hell with everyone else....

Cato wrote:


There are regional governments, and are you saying Athens was not a democracy?

There is not regional representation where you get to vote for a representative/s to represent your region in government....Sure, there are regional elections, but these candidates don't get to plead on their region's behalf in the Knesset....At the very best, these regional candidates might have influence when it comes to local laws like dog-leashes or what the speed limit should be on a certain local road, but not on anything serious that will have any major impact on this country as a whole, unlike in a healthy democracy where they do....As far as Athens, I really don't give a darn about whether or not it is a democracy....What I do care about, however, is when in my country, an elite few shove their agenda down the majority's throats in the name of "democracy", when they don't even know what the basic foundations of democracy are....

Cato wrote:


Ariel Sharon was not elected on refusal to withdraw, he was elected on the condition that he is not Barak, and he was re-elected because Israelis believe he is doing an excellent job fighting terrorism. Even a democracy has to bow to it's own laws, the equivalent to Israelis living in Gaza Strip in lets say Greece would be if tommorow 50,000 Greeks decided to go make settlements in what they call Eastern Thrace (Istanbul/Constantinople region of Turkey) and using history to show that Constantinople was historically Greek and that it is Greek Land refuse to leave. In this case it would be the obligation of the Greek Government to lay down the letter of the law on it's citizens.

Maybe we weren't watching the same campaign ads before the 2003 elections, but in the ads I saw, Sharon definately ran on an anti-unilateral withdrawal campaign....But like I said before, it didn't stop with Sharon making a 180 degree turn....Sharon went ahead and fired every minister who didn't agree with his "disengagement" from Gaza, as well as prematurely dismissing Ramat Kal, Moshe Yaalon, from his post for daring to express his professional opinion as the highest ranking IDF official that the "disengagement" would increase terrorism against Israel....Real democractic!!!! And then Sharon has the gall to call for a "referendum" for Likud members only (the hell with the rest of the country) regarding the "disengagement"....Real democratic!!!! And then Sharon has the hutzpa to ignore the results of the "referendum" and then join the left-wing parties whom he ran against to carry it out....Real democratic!!!!

Cato wrote:


Yes just like the French Unnilateral Withdrawal from Algeria when Charles De Gaulle didn't discuss it with Parliament or hold any type of polling or refrendum right? Or are you saying France is not a democracy either?

Just like with Athens, I really don't give a darn about whether or not France is a democracy, but calling Israel a "democracy" is clearly a joke....I am pointing out why Israel has much to learn when it comes to democracy, specifically those here who claim to worship it, but really use a superficial version of it to shove their agenda down the rest of our throats....

Cato wrote:


Perhaps you would like to see what would happen if 100 girls blocked off a major highway in Rome or Paris, or Athens, or London, they would be in jail for weeks, just like in Israel. Being female, and being young does not make you above the law.

I don't know about about Rome, Paris, Athens, or London, but I DO KNOW that in America in the above situation, the girls would be read their Miranda Rights about having the rights to an attorney and it would be forbidden to keep them in prison for more than 24 hours without having had the right to meet with their attorney and would not be kept in prison for weeks for disturbing traffic, no less in the atrocious conditions they were kept in (no blanket, not adequate amount of food, no visitors, not even parents or siblings!!)....

Cato wrote:


I also find it incredibly ironic that someone who believes Israel should keep Gaza and the West Bank while denying Palestinians living their citizenship (I assume from zion being in your name you want Israel to be a jewish state) is attacking Israel, I mean you are advocating an undemocratic practice, yet hypocritically calling Israel the former soviet union.

I see, so it is ok for the radical left to refer to certain Isareli policies as "nazi-like" policies, but when someone like me point out the flaws of Israel's so-called "democracy", then I am beyond the pale....I think it is ironic that those in Israel who worship democracy (not to mention political correctness) with a charedi like devoutness, have the least knowledge about how a "democracy" is supposed to work, but throw around their political correct agenda under the guise of "democracy" and what's sad is most Israelis are being taken for a ride by believing this is how democracy really works....So, I see it as my duty to show otherwise, just like the radical-left sees it as their duty to demonize those of us living in Judea and Samaria, while painting our enemies white....

Cato wrote:


Jews have evolved since the first century, however the Torah and religious law has not, the Torah and Religious law can not be changed, nor has it ever changed, it is the same as it was in 1200 BCE Israel and Judea.

For someone who speaks fluent hebrew, I am shocked that you don't know that the root of the word "halacha" is "holech", which means to go....Halacha is constantly on the go and not static and has evolved with time....If you open up the Gemarra, you would see how the different sages debated with each other when it came to different halachot and this continues to this day....

[KettleWhistle]

"Ariel Sharon was not elected by popular vote. No Israeli politician is. People can only vote for party lists, not for individual candidates. So, yes, THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING."

Yes he was, he won the Likkud primaries and so was able to run as Likkud's head. So yes their is candidate voting. Because good old reliable Peretz the uncurruptable won the Labor Primaries he is running. Tell me, in the United States what would the difference between voting for the Democrats and John Kerry have been?

There is a huge difference between voting for Kerry and voting for Democrats. There is no such thing as voting for parties in the U.S. Every single congressman and senator is elected individually, based on his/her individual record of serving their constituency. A vote for John Kerry, is first and foremost a vote for John Kerry, and only then it is a vote for Democrats.

Israel has a party-list voting system. There are no votes for individual candidates, so there is no such thing candidate vote in Israel.


"I can walk in front of the White House wearing a T-shirt that says "Kill Bush." In Israel saying something like "kill Peres," or "thank you Igal Amir," gets people arrested. Political parties like Kah (of whom I do not approve because they are religious) get outlawed. Jewish patriots like Tatiana Soskin get slammed with jail sentences for speaking their mind. Arutz Sheva is denied broadcasting lisense under false pretences, and is being harrassed for merely speaking out. YES, THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH FREEDOM OF SPEACH IN ISRAEL."

Word for word what you have said is exactly the same as in Europe, especially France, are you saying France is not a democracy? I highly doubt American Law permits death threats. I know for a fact though that Kahn is a terror organization and an enemy of the state of Israel which is why it was banned, and the fact is that what you mentioned is jewish incitement against muslims.

Then France has problems with freedom of speach, just Israel does. The American law protects freedom of expression. As for your other points, Kach is not a terrorist organization, nor is it racist. Although I deplore their ideas of establishing theocracy, I fully support the wonderful work they did in buying Jewish land from Arabs, and in paying Arabs to move out of the land of Israel.


"Correct, there is no separation of powers in Israel."

There is a seperation of powers. The Legislative (Knesset), executive (Prime Minister and the Government), and Judiciary (Supreme Court). There is total seperation of powers, and hypocritically your biggest complaint is when the Judiciary overrules the Legislative and Executive branches.

WRONG. The branches are not separated. They are simply different divisions within the same system, and not independent entities.


"I wipe my behind with your Talmud, and couldn't care less what Torah forbids."

What made you think I'm jewish? Besides I am completely secular, and I think you are lying and do care, because only Kahanists hold your views.

I don't care what you think. You are an Arafat supporter, and a leftist. I am an atheist and a Jewish nationalist. I don't need to believe in God or in ancient myths to love my people and my native land. One has nothing to do with the other.


I suppose you advocate the Armenians and the Greeks ethnically cleansing the Turks from their native lands in Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace then right?
Greeks and Armenians do not control those lands. If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy.

[Cato]

"Oh, really? Well, I sure haven't noticed....Maybe, that is why the SC has come under critcism from Israelis all across the political spectrum (again, Ruth Gavison is a leftist) for being too exclusionary and a "good old boys network"....And what is this nonsense about the judges picking eachother? An outside party, like the Israeli Bar Association or such should be selecting the judges based on skill, not whether or not they are "in" with those already in the SC....And what is "illegal" about Arutz 7 getting a license if it was voted on by the Knesset? Clearly, the SC has a political agenda, which they throw their weight around with all the time....The Supreme Court is supposed to enforce any laws that have been passed, NOT make up their own laws or veto laws due to political prejudice....What a healthy democracy needs is a system of checks and balances like that of the United States where you have the executive, judicial and legistlative branch: executive (president) can veto laws passed by the legislative (congress), but if the congress votes in favor of a law (2/3 vote), then that overides the executive veto; the judiciary's function is to merely interpret and enforce the laws passed by the executive and/or legislative branches....So, it is a system of checks and balances, which is essential for any democracy; not a Prime Minister that rules with an iron fist and to hell with everyone else...."

That sounds a lot like the complaints American Conservatives have against their own Supreme Court, you know Bush's constant demonization of "Activist Judges".

"There is not regional representation where you get to vote for a representative/s to represent your region in government....Sure, there are regional elections, but these candidates don't get to plead on their region's behalf in the Knesset....At the very best, these regional candidates might have influence when it comes to local laws like dog-leashes or what the speed limit should be on a certain local road, but not on anything serious that will have any major impact on this country as a whole, unlike in a healthy democracy where they do....As far as Athens, I really don't give a darn about whether or not it is a democracy....What I do care about, however, is when in my country, an elite few shove their agenda down the majority's throats in the name of "democracy", when they don't even know what the basic foundations of democracy are...."

Democracy means the people are represented. In Israel the people are represented. Besides most Israelis in poll after poll have shown support for Sharon's agenda, and have expressed support for unnilateral withdrawal.

"Maybe we weren't watching the same campaign ads before the 2003 elections, but in the ads I saw, Sharon definately ran on an anti-unilateral withdrawal campaign...."

But that isn't why Israelis voted for him, it was his anti-terrorist skills not his anti-unnilateral withdrawal statements that gave him victory.

"But like I said before, it didn't stop with Sharon making a 180 degree turn....Sharon went ahead and fired every minister who didn't agree with his "disengagement" from Gaza, as well as prematurely dismissing Ramat Kal, Moshe Yaalon, from his post for daring to express his professional opinion as the highest ranking IDF official that the "disengagement" would increase terrorism against Israel....Real democractic!!!!"

It was Ariel Sharon who was elected not Ramat Kal.

"I don't know about about Rome, Paris, Athens, or London, but I DO KNOW that in America in the above situation, the girls would be read their Miranda Rights about having the rights to an attorney and it would be forbidden to keep them in prison for more than 24 hours without having had the right to meet with their attorney and would not be kept in prison for weeks for disturbing traffic, no less in the atrocious conditions they were kept in (no blanket, not adequate amount of food, no visitors, not even parents or siblings!!)...."

So then do you contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America? Even in Tokyo if 100 teenage girls blocked up traffick they would have a very hard few weeks in a Japanese Prison. Besides hundreds of thousands of unconvicted Americans are in prison right now waiting for their trial because Americas courts are so overcrowded that it takes a year to get to trial, and most Americans can't afford bail.

"I see, so it is ok for the radical left to refer to certain Isareli policies as "nazi-like" policies, but when someone like me point out the flaws of Israel's so-called "democracy", then I am beyond the pale....I think it is ironic that those in Israel who worship democracy (not to mention political correctness) with a charedi like devoutness, have the least knowledge about how a "democracy" is supposed to work, but throw around their political correct agenda under the guise of "democracy" and what's sad is most Israelis are being taken for a ride by believing this is how democracy really works....So, I see it as my duty to show otherwise, just like the radical-left sees it as their duty to demonize those of us living in Judea and Samaria, while painting our enemies white...."

So how is wanting to continue the occupation democratic? Edit-I never said I aprove of the radical left, I whole heartedly condemn the radical left for it's calling Israel Nazi and it's hypocritical and openly anti-semitic analysis of the situation. I have never said I approve of the far left, or an increasingly anti-semitic European Left, however that said it does not mean I support occupation either.

"For someone who speaks fluent hebrew, I am shocked that you don't know that the root of the word "halacha" is "holech", which means to go....Halacha is constantly on the go and not static and has evolved with time....If you open up the Gemarra, you would see how the different sages debated with each other when it came to different halachot and this continues to this day...."

Look the base text of the Torah is still the same as it ever was, and since I know hebrew I understand it, a theocracy in Israel would be no more respectful of humanity then the theocracy in Iran.

"There is a huge difference between voting for Kerry and voting for Democrats. There is no such thing as voting for parties in the U.S. Every single congressman and senator is elected individually, based on his/her individual record of serving their constituency. A vote for John Kerry, is first and foremost a vote for John Kerry, and only then it is a vote for Democrats.

Israel has a party-list voting system. There are no votes for individual candidates, so there is no such thing candidate vote in Israel."

Go read some articles by actual Americans, Kerry is the most party line based politician in Washington. I am not saying that's a bad thing, I am just stating the fact. First there are Party Primaries to determine who leads the party, and then there are elections to determine which party leader is also leading the country. Just like in America. The only difference is that instead of saying the name of the winner of the party primaries it says the name of the party on the ballot. There is no difference, for gods sakes you imbecilic nut job around the world the Barak vs Sharon election was called that, not a Labor vs Likkud show down.

"Then France has problems with freedom of speach, just Israel does."

France has a problem with incitement to racial violence just like Israel does.

"The American law protects freedom of expression."

Go scream fire in a crowded cinema.

"As for your other points, Kach is not a terrorist organization, nor is it racist. Although I deplore their ideas of establishing theocracy, I fully support the wonderful work they did in buying Jewish land from Arabs, and in paying Arabs to move out of the land of Israel."

Kach is a terrorist organization, and you are right it is not racist because Muslim is not a race, instead it is filled up with every form of religious bigotry there is.

"WRONG. The branches are not separated. They are simply different divisions within the same system, and not independent entities."

Actually I am right. Your own argument contradicts yourself because you argue the judiciary is to powerful, and now you are saying it doesn't exist. Round around the libel goes which one he will chose nobody nows.

"I don't care what you think. You are an Arafat supporter, and a leftist. I am an atheist and a Jewish nationalist. I don't need to believe in God or in ancient myths to love my people and my native land. One has nothing to do with the other."

I am a patriotic Israeli Citizen, you are a Kahanist Scum, and probably a terrorist.

"Greeks and Armenians do not control those lands. If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

In other words your answer is yes. So you are in favor of ethnically cleansing Turkey of Turks and giving the historically Greek parts of it to Greece and historically Armenian parts of it to the Armenians. I think you should be praying for some basic morality to force it's way into your empty head instead of the destruction of the Israeli State.

[minusthejihad]

I wipe my behind with your Talmud,

That's kinda crass dawg.

[KettleWhistle]

So then do you contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America? Even in Tokyo if 100 teenage girls blocked up traffick they would have a very hard few weeks in a Japanese Prison.

Umm, no they wouldn't. They'd be asked to stop, and then would be taken to a detention center, from which they'd be released to their parents, the moments the parents arrive to pick them up. Ditto in the States.

But gotta love this leftist argument: "some others commit injustice against their citizens, so we should too." Thanks for explaining that.


Besides hundreds of thousands of unconvicted Americans are in prison right now waiting for their trial because Americas courts are so overcrowded that it takes a year to get to trial, and most Americans can't afford bail.
Most American's can't afford bail? LOL LOL


"There is a huge difference between voting for Kerry and voting for Democrats. There is no such thing as voting for parties in the U.S. Every single congressman and senator is elected individually, based on his/her individual record of serving their constituency. A vote for John Kerry, is first and foremost a vote for John Kerry, and only then it is a vote for Democrats.

Israel has a party-list voting system. There are no votes for individual candidates, so there is no such thing candidate vote in Israel."

Go read some articles by actual Americans, Kerry is the most party line based politician in Washington. I am not saying that's a bad thing, I am just stating the fact. First there are Party Primaries to determine who leads the party, and then there are elections to determine which party leader is also leading the country. Just like in America. The only difference is that instead of saying the name of the winner of the party primaries it says the name of the party on the ballot. There is no difference, for gods sakes you imbecilic nut job around the world the Barak vs Sharon election was called that, not a Labor vs Likkud show down.

I am an American, and you have no clue what you're talking about. American legislators are accountable to their constituency. Swing voters, are the ones who matter the most, are those with no party loyalty. They vote for individual candidates from either party, not for a party. I voted for Jonh Edwards in the primaries, and for Bush in the final elections. Israelis vote for parties, nor for people. SO THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING IN ISRAEL. Your attempts to spin doctor the truth are pathetic.



"Then France has problems with freedom of speach, just Israel does."

France has a problem with incitement to racial violence just like Israel does.

Israel does not have a problem with incitement to racial violence. There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race. And when was the last time in the past 10 years that Arabs were tossed in jail for years for inciting against Jews?


"The American law protects freedom of expression."

Go scream fire in a crowded cinema.

Hahaha Nice try, spin doctor!


"As for your other points, Kach is not a terrorist organization, nor is it racist. Although I deplore their ideas of establishing theocracy, I fully support the wonderful work they did in buying Jewish land from Arabs, and in paying Arabs to move out of the land of Israel."

Kach is a terrorist organization, and you are right it is not racist because Muslim is not a race, instead it is filled up with every form of religious bigotry there is.

Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda.


"WRONG. The branches are not separated. They are simply different divisions within the same system, and not independent entities."

Actually I am right. Your own argument contradicts yourself because you argue the judiciary is to powerful, and now you are saying it doesn't exist. Round around the libel goes which one he will chose nobody nows.

Actually, you are spin doctoring (but what else new!). I made no such arguments. I said that there are no separation of powers, a concept you obviously don't understand.


"I don't care what you think. You are an Arafat supporter, and a leftist. I am an atheist and a Jewish nationalist. I don't need to believe in God or in ancient myths to love my people and my native land. One has nothing to do with the other."

I am a patriotic Israeli Citizen, you are a Kahanist Scum, and probably a terrorist.
LOL, nice try, Arafat supporter.


"Greeks and Armenians do not control those lands. If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

In other words your answer is yes. So you are in favor of ethnically cleansing Turkey of Turks and giving the historically Greek parts of it to Greece and historically Armenian parts of it to the Armenians.
No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth.

[Overload]

I am done with this convoluted discussion. Its as though everyone is screaming at each other without listening.

[Mediocrates]

So to what end would you see or not see, a Constitution? You can yell at each other all you want - these are just specific points in the justice system that may need to be tweaked and so are not Constitutional issues at all. In other words the existence of a Constitution should not alter these issues much.


Bottom line, what would you expect an Israeli constitution to accomplish?

Moreover it's important to note that there are basic concepts ensconsed in a Constitution, in the US, which serve as the basis for interpretive rulings which form Case Law. If you don't expect to make much use of legal precident in Israel nor Constitutional interpretations from the bench to form that case law then the job of your Constitution would be much easier, trivial perhaps. See it really has to do with the sophistication of your legal system as much as the elegance of your government.

[Cato]

"Umm, no they wouldn't. They'd be asked to stop, and then would be taken to a detention center, from which they'd be released to their parents, the moments the parents arrive to pick them up. Ditto in the States.

But gotta love this leftist argument: "some others commit injustice against their citizens, so we should too." Thanks for explaining that."

I said in Tokyo, I didn't know the capital of Japan is in the United States. Besides I read in the New York times a few years ago about mentally ill children being kept in New Jersey Jails because the state doesn't have the money to place them in places to get care.

"Most American's can't afford bail? LOL LOL"

Actually that is true at least according to the US State Department. Most Americans who get arrested wait in prison for up to a year before trial.

"I am an American, and you have no clue what you're talking about. American legislators are accountable to their constituency."

So are Israeli legislators.

"Swing voters, are the ones who matter the most, are those with no party loyalty."

They either grant victory to the man who won the Republican Primaries, or the Man who won the Democrat Primaries. It is exactly the same in Israel. As I said nobody advertised Mitzna vs Sharon, as Labor vs Likkud it was advertised as Sharon vs Mitzna, nobody advertised Barak vs Bibi as labor vs likkud either. You are really grasping at straws.

"I voted for Jonh Edwards in the primaries, and for Bush in the final elections. Israelis vote for parties, nor for people. SO THERE IS NO CANDIDATE VOTING IN ISRAEL. Your attempts to spin doctor the truth are pathetic."

Nope you are the only spin doctor in this room. You wanted Edwards to be the leader of the democrats and to vote for him for president, and when Kerry won the primaries instead you voted Republican. In Israel the party presents it's candidate, which unexpectedly was Amir Peretz. You are grasping at straws. THERE IS NO SECRET AS TO WHO IS SOMEONE VOTING FOR IN ISRAEL WE DO NOT VOTE PARTIES WE VOTE PEOPLE.

"Israel does not have a problem with incitement to racial violence."

Yes it does

" There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). "

Niether are foriegners.

"Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race."

So you are saying jews are a religion instead of an ethnicity instead of your usual stance, round and round opinions go which one Kettle will adopt nobody knows.

"And when was the last time in the past 10 years that Arabs were tossed in jail for years for inciting against Jews?"

2004 raid into Gaza Strip

"Hahaha Nice try, spin doctor!"

Go do it, I am sure that all Americans will understand that you did not mean fire literally. Listen terrorists with an extremist Kahanist sympathies like you killed our Prime Minister, we need to take all death threats against Prime Ministers seriously.

"Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda."

And there is no anti-semitism in the Arab World then if they aren't a terrorist anti-non jewish organization.

"Actually, you are spin doctoring (but what else new!). I made no such arguments. I said that there are no separation of powers, a concept you obviously don't understand. "

For the last time you ignorant Kahanist, THERE IS A SEPERATION OF POWERS. WHy the hell do you think the Knesset and Government are constantly losing cases in the Supreme Court? Can it be because the Judiciary is independent and does not bow down to the executive or legislative?

"LOL, nice try, Arafat supporter."

I am a patriotic citizen, and you are a Kahanist enemy of the state. When Peretz wins the elections I will spam the victory headline all over here to rub it in your face.

"No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth."

You are right, all you said is " If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."

Seems like you are a fascist to me. So all the Greeks and Armenians need to do in your eyes to have a legitimate claim to land that was theirs 100 years ago is wage a war with Turkey. Sounds like you are a might is right jurk.

I say I am looking forward to the next round of elections when Likkud gets only 10 seats, while Labor gets 75 at least.

[mbczion]

Cato wrote:


That sounds a lot like the complaints American Conservatives have against their own Supreme Court, you know Bush's constant demonization of "Activist Judges".

The difference is that, in Israel, the system of government (specifically the way the Supreme Court judges are handpicked and the way the SC picks and chooses laws according to a specific agenda) has been criticized by all political spectors, from left to right, secular to religious, Arab to Jewish, not just by die-hard conservatives....Survey after survey shows that the majority of Israelis do not have confidence in the instituions running this country (with the SC being on the bottom)....

Cato wrote:


Democracy means the people are represented. In Israel the people are represented. Besides most Israelis in poll after poll have shown support for Sharon's agenda, and have expressed support for unnilateral withdrawal.

First of all, I am not talking specifically about the unilateral withdrawal, but the way the system works in general....I was just using Sharon's dictatorial tendencies, since he has been elected as an example of how flawed our system is....At any rate, the people are NOT represented, but parties are elected, the leader whose party has the most votes becomes prime minister and a bunch of wheeling and dealing goes on behind the whole country's back- you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, you back disengagement (for example) and I will make you mininster of so and so, you don't back it and your fired, etc. This is not called "representing the people" but each Knesset member doing what's best for him and what he needs to do in order to keep his seat....Much coercion goes on when it comes to forming coalitions....BTW, if in poll after poll most Israelis had shown support for unilateral withdrawal, then why was Sharon afraid to hold a national referendum and why did he ignore the Likud "referendum" (which was more waste of tax payer $$$$ if Sharon was going to ignore the results anyway)?

Cato wrote:


But that isn't why Israelis voted for him, it was his anti-terrorist skills not his anti-unnilateral withdrawal statements that gave him victory.

I don't know why those who voted for Sharon voted for him....I didn't go door to door asking people, but I DO KNOW on what platform Sharon ran and it was definately anti-unilateral withdrawal....The fact that Sharon has anti-terrorist skills was besides the point in his campaign....Maybe that is why he won, maybe not, but that was NOT his platform, at least not in the ads I saw....

Cato wrote:


It was Ariel Sharon who was elected not Ramat Kal.

Yes, Ariel Sharon was elected....To be prime minister, not a dictator!!!!

Cato wrote:


So then do you contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America? Even in Tokyo if 100 teenage girls blocked up traffick they would have a very hard few weeks in a Japanese Prison. Besides hundreds of thousands of unconvicted Americans are in prison right now waiting for their trial because Americas courts are so overcrowded that it takes a year to get to trial, and most Americans can't afford bail.

All I know is that I have lived many years in America and many years in Israel, so I am comparing these two countries....I don't know what would happen if 100 teenage girls blocked traffic in Tokyo, France, London, Greece, or anywhere else, but America....In America they would be read their rights to an attorney (and would be provided one if they could not afford one), their right to keep silent, anything they say can and will be used against them, etc. and would not be able to be in prison for more than 24 hours, without having spoken with their attorney and had a chance to plead their case in court....They would be provided with adequate food, a blanket, and have visiting rights by their parents....In America, you do not get put into prison for an extended period of time (i.e. having to post bail) until you and your attorney have had your say in court and the court have decided that you pose a flight risk or a danger to society, due to the type of crime you have commited or your past records (first time offender or not)....As opposed to here, where these teenage girls were held in prison for several weeks without having had a chance to meet with their attorney, have their say in court, inadequate food, no blanket, no visiting rights by immediate family, etc. So, to answer your question, if this would happen in any other country in the world, except America, then I DO contest that there is any democracy in the world outside of America....

Cato wrote:


So how is wanting to continue the occupation democratic? Edit-I never said I aprove of the radical left, I whole heartedly condemn the radical left for it's calling Israel Nazi and it's hypocritical and openly anti-semitic analysis of the situation. I have never said I approve of the far left, or an increasingly anti-semitic European Left, however that said it does not mean I support occupation either.

You will have to ask the UN, the UNRWA, and the Arab countries why they continue to leave the Palestinians in the refugee camps, rather than letting them integrate into any one of their 22 respective countries, just like the Jews forced to flee Arab countries in the early 50's integrated into Israeli society (albeit only after many years in transit camps and persecution by the founding askenazic elite)....I can't answer that....Well, I am glad to hear YOU don't support the radical left and their self-hating ilk....

Cato wrote:


Look the base text of the Torah is still the same as it ever was, and since I know hebrew I understand it, a theocracy in Israel would be no more respectful of humanity then the theocracy in Iran.

You might be fluent in hebrew, but you have much to learn about Judaism....Anyone with more than a gan (nursery school) education of Judaism knows that there is both a written law (Torah) and an oral law (Talmud) and that they go hand in hand....Where do you think the justice system in most of the western countries of today comes from? Have you ever studied Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud? Where do you think the concept of innocent until proven guilty comes from? Why do you think America prides themselves on having founded their country and government on Judeo-Christian principles? Did you know that many law schools, including many with predominantly non-Jewish student bodies, require their students to take a beginners class on Talmud because so much of the justice system comes from the Talmud plus the thinking process of a lawyer is so similar to that of the sages in the Talmud? Cato, I invite you with ALL MY HEART, when you come back from Greece to join me for some Gemarra (Talmud) studies....After all, if you are willing to spend a year in Greece to "improve yourself as an Israeli citizen" (as you stated in another post), why not try learning a thing or to about your faith as well as the official religion of your country?

Mediocrates wrote:


So to what end would you see or not see, a Constitution? You can yell at each other all you want - these are just specific points in the justice system that may need to be tweaked and so are not Constitutional issues at all. In other words the existence of a Constitution should not alter these issues much.

Bottom line, what would you expect an Israeli constitution to accomplish?

What would be in the constitution that is not already covered in the laws that are out there? I think the system needs to be tweaked more than anything else? I don't know if an Israeli constitution would accomplish much other than maybe having all the laws and precedents in one place, rather than scattered all over in many places, like they are now....

[KettleWhistle]

They either grant victory to the man who won the Republican Primaries, or the Man who won the Democrat Primaries. It is exactly the same in Israel. As I said nobody advertised Mitzna vs Sharon, as Labor vs Likkud it was advertised as Sharon vs Mitzna, nobody advertised Barak vs Bibi as labor vs likkud either. You are really grasping at straws.

So you mean to say that each candidate from every party in Israel is voted for individually, and not a party list? Or are you going to spin doctor the UNDENIABLE FACT that Israelis can only vote for party lists, and not for individual candidates, and hence have NO CANDIDATE VOTING? Well, of course you will, LOL.


" There are tensions between Jews (the natives) and Arabs (the foreigners). "

Niether are foriegners.

Israel is Jewish native land. All who aren't Jews are foreigners.


"Neither Jews nor Arabs are a race."

So you are saying jews are a religion instead of an ethnicity instead of your usual stance, round and round opinions go which one Kettle will adopt nobody knows.


Hey, here's another lie from Cato! But would anyone expect anything else?

Jews are an ethnicity. So are Arabs. And ethnicities are not races. Not to mention that Jews and Arabs are both Caucasians and belong to the same race.


"Kach is not a terrorist organization. And it is not anti-Muslim. It is a strongly pro-Jewish organization with an ultra-religious agenda." Listen terrorists with an extremist Kahanist sympathies like you killed our Prime Minister, we need to take all death threats against Prime Ministers seriously.

Are you talking about the traitor Rabin, who was killed by an honorable and concerned citizen, Igal Amir? Just to make sure I understand you correctly, are we talking about the same Rabin, who, together with his business partner, Yassir Arafat, is responsible for the deaths of all these people, and then some: http://www.geocities.com/israeli_eyes/


I am a patriotic citizen, and you are a Kahanist enemy of the state. When Peretz wins the elections I will spam the victory headline all over here to rub it in your face.
Not even most terrorism-supporting leftists that voted for Rabin/Arafat/Peres camp in the past vote for Avoda anymore. Scum like Peretz can make all the noise they want, but the only thing they ever accomplish is killing Israelis and ruining the economy. We'll see how many votes he's gonna get, and in the unlikely event that he'd win, I'll make sure to post the headlines about the crumbling economy and dead Israelis. I'm sure you'll cheer to those, as all of you Arafat-supporters do.


"No, that's not what I said. But thanks for exposing the typical leftist spin doctoring to us, as you did with your rhetoric and trying to put words in my mouth."

You are right, all you said is " If they did, they would've had every right to remove the foreign populations from there. And these actions would in no way undermine their democracy."
Nice try taking what I posted out of context. Keep on, Arafat supporter.

[nuttie]

I truly believe that most problems with the Israeli democracy boil down to the electoral system. It must be changed.

It seems to me that the preferable system for electing the Knesset is regional representation, and I would like to invite the Hebrew speakers among you to a discussion blog I opened on this subject

here (http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=207295)

*

[MicroBalrog]

Does Israel needs to have Constitution?

How it will benefit Israel as state? What are the implications to have one?

Yes, it is a marvellous idea:

1. Israel needs to have separation of the different arms of government. The situation today, where a Prime Minister MUST have a majority in thE Knesset, and thus, any elected leader of the Executive also controls the Legislature, is hugely faulted.

2. Israel needs to legally define the authority of the government and limits to it, as well as (I suggesT) some form of Federalism.

3. Britain does several key documents qualifying as 'written constitutional law' such as the British Bill of Rights etc. To the best of my knowledge, this cannot be repealed by Parliament.

http://www.fastload.org/br/British_constitutional_law.html

4. Basic laws today can be changed with a vote of 61 out of 120 Knesset members. This is too easy. One should have something like the US does, where a vote of 2/3rds of Senate and congress and 3/4th of the states are required.

5. It is necessary that the Constitution incorporate a strong BoR.

This seems to be a good one, and the original nation who came up with it isn't using it, anyway:

http://jpfo.org/billrights.htm

[Yonathan]

BS"D

The Supreme Court functions as a shadow government in Israel. The Court makes up the law as it goes along, and according to its own wishes. It is guided primarily by its desire to maintain its power over the country. Yet, it is also influenced by European public opinion, Western, academic elite, sensibilities, and, of course, the all-encompassing hatred for all things Jewish (Read: all things related to Torah).

What happened to Arutz 7 in its attempt at "legal," radio broadcasting is a good example. After the K'nesset granted Arutz 7 its permit to broadcast, the Supreme Court intervened, claiming that the K'nesset legalized the radio station...illegally. ???

The Israeli Supreme Court maintains power through its self-perpetuation. New justices are appointed by a committee, comprised of the Chief Justice, one other justice, the attorney general, and a couple of token K'nesset members.

Truly democratic "checks and balances" are simply nonexistent in Israel.

No matter whom we elect this year (28 Adar 5766), or any other year, Aharon Baraq YSh"W, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, will continue to be our president, Shimon Peres YSh"W will be our Prime Minister, Yossi Beilin YSh"W will be the Ambassador-at-large and "moral conscience," etc. (May God help us!)

The only reason the K'nesset is now able to consider a possible "constitution," is because the left will be able to manipulate the outcome. A constitution will gain points with the U. S. AND give even more "legitimacy" to the Supreme Court, and to the accompanying Baraq-Peres shadow dictatorship.

This is the Erev Rav in action.

What are we going to do about it?