Does Israel do enough for it's traumatized citizens who were bombed?

[AraV]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=431609&contrassID=2&subContrassID=20&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

The part I would like you to focus on is The Nightmare Never Ends.

My question is this, do you think Israel is doing enough to help it's traumitized citizens who survive suicide bombings?

I don't, and I do not think that Panoyan is an isolated case, I think that most of the Israeli Victims of Suicide Bombings are still suffering today as a result of their experience, like the man in this article is.

The article was too long for me to copy paste it onto here (It is 5000 words to long) so I posted a link to it, I hope it works.

[Mediocrates]

And I found this paragraph to be striking:


There have been 16 "Arab citizens killed in terror attacks" during the three and a half years of intifada, according to a list compiled by the Mossawa Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens in Israel. These casualties include Druze soldiers from the Galilee and Carmel Mountains; Christian Arabs from the Galilee, Haifa and Jerusalem; and Muslim Arabs from Taibeh, Turan and Jisr al-Zarqa. Many dozens, like Panoyan, have been injured. In at least one instance, the bombing at the Meron Junction in August 2002, there were Arab citizens of Israel involved on both sides: Maysoon Amin Hassan, a Druze student from Sajour, and Roni Kamal Ghanem, a Druze soldier from Maghar, were killed in an attack planned and executed by Ibrahim and Yassin Bakri, two Muslim Arabs from Ba'ana, a village in the Galilee.




Anyone who wants to claim that downtrodden people fighting occupation blah blah blah blah needs to have this evidence that Jews are killed because they are Jews, engraved on their empty little heads.

[AraV]

That really is not the part of the article I was trying to draw attention to.

[Sumud]

And I found this paragraph to be striking:


There have been 16 "Arab citizens killed in terror attacks" during the three and a half years of intifada, according to a list compiled by the Mossawa Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens in Israel. These casualties include Druze soldiers from the Galilee and Carmel Mountains; Christian Arabs from the Galilee, Haifa and Jerusalem; and Muslim Arabs from Taibeh, Turan and Jisr al-Zarqa. Many dozens, like Panoyan, have been injured. In at least one instance, the bombing at the Meron Junction in August 2002, there were Arab citizens of Israel involved on both sides: Maysoon Amin Hassan, a Druze student from Sajour, and Roni Kamal Ghanem, a Druze soldier from Maghar, were killed in an attack planned and executed by Ibrahim and Yassin Bakri, two Muslim Arabs from Ba'ana, a village in the Galilee.




Anyone who wants to claim that downtrodden people fighting occupation blah blah blah blah needs to have this evidence that Jews are killed because they are Jews, engraved on their empty little heads.


Which bit of the news quote is related to this statement - 'this evidence that Jews are killed because they are Jews'??

[Mediocrates]

Do the math. 16 versus 2000. Clearly Jews are targeted AS JEWS.

[AraV]

Suicide Bombers killed a lot more then 200 people, and they have killed more minority Israelis since the article was published.

However that is completely off topic, my question is do you think Israel is doing enough for it's victimized citizenry like the Armenian this article is about?

I for one do not think this is an isolated case, I think the Israeli Government has taken a taugh it out attitude towards emotional after shocks of suicide bombers.

Yes it is true his family did not lose a father/husband/son/brother, but Panoyan has been scarred for life, and like most victims he is just being made to tough it out.

[Sumud]

Do the math. 16 versus 2000. Clearly Jews are targeted AS JEWS.
Huh??

So, if Palestinian terrorists had killed more Arab civillians this would mean it really was a fight against occupation?? You're kidding, right?

Maybe those 16, were Arabs killed because they were Jews. :D

[Mediocrates]

Don't take this the wrong way but are you retarded or a plant?

Bombers go after people who are not Arabs. Which means that all this twaddle about occupation is complete nonsense. It's racist rage that's at the core of this.

[Luke90]

Surely whether to get counselling is largely an individual decision.

[Mediocrates]

By comparison we deified the families of 911 victims showering them with a virtual lottery of cash, prizes, fame and handwringing. Is that healthy?

[genghis_tom]

Don't take this the wrong way but are you retarded or a plant?

Bombers go after people who are not Arabs. Which means that all this twaddle about occupation is complete nonsense. It's racist rage that's at the core of this.

Jordan (cough cough)
What was the Arab:Jew casualty ratio there?

[Mediocrates]

Who really cares? One attack in Jordan puts them in the same league as Spain.

[genghis_tom]

Who really cares? One attack in Jordan puts them in the same league as Spain.
The world cares! What happens in Spain, or Jordan, or anywhere, effects all of us!
It's the attitude of, Jews died! :eek: and oh, some Arabs died, too; and Marines died! :eek: and oh, some Iraqis died, too. This attitude in no way helps society as a whole. It's up to me, Mediocrates, everyone on this forum, and the generations of those that are in this forum to get our children to care!

[minusthejihad]

I look forward to teaching my kids that the reason their grandparents excaped to the USA and/or the First World from the FSU, is so that they would never have to be a part of the devalued masses, forced into nothing that they themselves did not choose to do.

[Mediocrates]

The world cares! What happens in Spain, or Jordan, or anywhere, effects all of us!
It's the attitude of, Jews died! :eek: and oh, some Arabs died, too; and Marines died! :eek: and oh, some Iraqis died, too. This attitude in no way helps society as a whole. It's up to me, Mediocrates, everyone on this forum, and the generations of those that are in this forum to get our children to care!



Why? Thousands of Jews get murdered and we have a long thoughtful discussion about how much more to sacrifice. 200 Spaniards and 57 Jordanians get murdered and it's an international calamity, governments topple and it's on the news for a week.

Excuse me, but I am so far beyond cynical that there is no vocabulary for it. Yes yes I can pick up my latest version of the SWC publication and there is a sidebar on the Jordanian king getting an award for fighting antisemitism. And Jordan is the most pro American or pro Israeli Arab state and they certainly paid for that. But I'm over here and there's blood in my shoes and I honestly can't get that worked up about their misery. Where were they before?

[genghis_tom]

Why? Thousands of Jews get murdered and we have a long thoughtful discussion about how much more to sacrifice. 200 Spaniards and 57 Jordanians get murdered and it's an international calamity, governments topple and it's on the news for a week.

Excuse me, but I am so far beyond cynical that there is no vocabulary for it. Yes yes I can pick up my latest version of the SWC publication and there is a sidebar on the Jordanian king getting an award for fighting antisemitism. And Jordan is the most pro American or pro Israeli Arab state and they certainly paid for that. But I'm over here and there's blood in my shoes and I honestly can't get that worked up about their misery. Where were they before?
To the first paragraph:
When was the last time we saw 200 Jews die in the same instant? If that happened tomorrow, that would be an international calamity. It was a calamity then...
To the second paragraph:
How cynical are you when Jews die? I am wondering.

[Mediocrates]

How cynical? Pretty damn. I just wondering how outraged the rest of the world will be when it happens the next time?

Since the beginning of the intifada more than 50 American citizens have been murdered by Palestinians. We've invaded whole countries for less than that. And what was the reaction (http://www.grasshoppercontrol.com/two-striped%20grasshopper.jpg) of our own goverment about the murders of its own citizens on foreign soil?

We've gone to war over less. We sent in one fourth of the entire Marine Corp to arrest one guy in Panama. Went sent in the Marines to topple a whole country in order to rescue 30 American medical students. We lock up people w/o charge for years for the suspicion of having had contact with people who may have been terrorists.

So while we all lash ourselves and have long boring discussions about the terrible tragedies in Amman and Madrid please don't tell them to throw themselves on my mercy. It's such a ridiculously small target.

[genghis_tom]

Points taken, Mediocrates.
But who can throw themselves on your mercy?

[Sumud]

Don't take this the wrong way but are you retarded or a plant?

Bombers go after people who are not Arabs. Which means that all this twaddle about occupation is complete nonsense. It's racist rage that's at the core of this.
Medio, the story noted that the terrorists carried out there attack even though they knew thee were other Arabs there. I’m not sure how well that fits in with your theory, which is that Palestinian terrorists have really been happy to kill just anyone as long as they are not Arabs. But what the heck, the Jews are right there. Terribly convenient that they are occupiers as well, which gives great cover for the ‘racist rage’. :rolleyes:


But that’s the core of this mindset – Israelis are just totally innocent bystanders in the whole process, entirely without interests or an agenda or any role except as the eternal victim.

[Mediocrates]

To me that's a man bites dog story aspect of it. Like in another thread people carrying on about a white female Belgian shahid bomber.

Interesting? But not really emblematic of anything. Facts are facts and 99% of all Israelis killed by Palestinians are killed because they are Jews, obviously, visibly clearly Jews. Did these shahids get on buses filled with Haredi black hats and not know? Did they hide behind rocks and snipe at settlers' cars and simply not realize that there was a nearly 100% likelihood they were Jews? Did they attack Jewish holy sites in Hevron and not understand that nearly everyone at a Jewish holy site in Hevron would in fact be Jewish? Did they toss rocks over the top of the Kotel to smash down on the heads of the people below and not know that the people praying down there at the Western Wall were Jewish? Did they aim their rockets into Jewish settlements and then realize they made an awful mistake when Jewish children were killed?

[Sumud]

Mediocrates, it’s an obvious error in this case to try to focus on an essential feature of a group of people rather than their actions, as a cause of animosity. I guess Palestinian attacks against the British were also just ‘racist rage’. Maybe there were French people who preferred to explain Algerian terrorism against French people as ‘racist rage’ too.

To even consider this idea, you have to ignore 100 years of conflict over the land between Palestinians and European Jewish immigrants. Medio your contention has more holes in it than a swiss cheese.

What it comes down to is a concerted effort to suppress guilt – Israeli Jews are an entirely innocent party. You have to be a fully paid up member of the Cult-of-Eternal-Victimhood to buy this line.

[Mediocrates]

Yes I understand it's a common thread of your argument that black hats, women and children on buses are legitimate targets. ;)



But feel free to postulate something coherent.

[Leon]

My Favourite

Sheik Ibrahim Mudayris in a Friday sermon, PA TV, September 10, 2004:

"The Prophet said the Resurrection will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them. The Muslims will kill the Jews, rejoice. Rejoice in Allah's Victory. The Muslims will kill the Jew, and he will hide.

"The Prophet said: 'The Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: O servant of Allah, O Muslim this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'

"Why is there this malice? Because there are none who love the Jews on the face of the earth: not man, not rock, and not tree - everything hates them. They destroy everything! They destroy the trees and destroy the houses. Everything wants vengeance on the Jews, on these pigs on the face of the earth, and the day of our victory, Allah willing, will come."

certainly proves that it has nothing to do with the fact that the people being killed - are killed because they are Jews.

The above was just a sample of mainstream Palestinian/Arab television - if I were to post more, I would be here for months on end.

I'm yet to find the same Palestinian rhetoric against "British occuppiers" or Algerian rhetoric against "French occuppiers"

[Leon]

To even consider this idea, you have to ignore 100 years of conflict over the land between Palestinians and European Jewish immigrants. Medio your contention has more holes in it than a swiss cheese.


I supposse the Hebron massacer - which destroyed an indeginous Jewish community thousands of years old and was led by a newly arrived Syrian Arab immigrant/settler mob - and the riots/pogroms that followed was a classic example of the "100 year conflict between native indian palestinians and European colonial cowboy Jews."

Or how about the Palestinian allegiance to Nazi Germany and Amin Al Hussieni's participation in the genocide of tens of thousands of Jews not to mention his plea for Eichmann and Himmler to send tens of thousands Hungrian Jews to the gas chambers instead of releasing them to the allies? Just another part of the " glorious 100 year Palestinian struggle against the European zionist occuppiers?"


or how about this (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=9200)


For example, Samuel b. Ishaq Uceda, a major Kabbalist from Safed at the end of the 16th century, refers in his commentary on The Lamentations of Jeremiah, to the situation of the Jews in the Land of Israel (Palestine):
...there is no town in the [Ottoman] empire in which the Jews are subjected to such heavy taxes and dues as in the Land of Israel, and particularly in Jerusalem. Were it not for the funds sent by the communities in Exile, no Jew could survive here on account of the numerous taxes… The [Muslims] humiliate us to such an extent that we are not allowed to walk in the streets. The Jew is obliged to step aside in order to let the Gentile [Muslim] pass first. And if the Jew does not turn aside of his own will, he is forced to do so. This law is particularly enforced in Jerusalem, more so than in other localities.

A century later Canon Antoine Morison, from Bar-le-Duc in France, while traveling in the Levant in 1698, observed that the Jews in Jerusalem are “there in misery and under the most cruel and shameful slavery”, and although a large community, they suffered from extortion.
Similar contemporary observations regarding the plight of both Palestinian Jews and Christians-subjected to the jizya [infidel tax], and other attendant forms of social, economic, and religious .. discrimination, often brutally imposed, were made by the Polish Jew, Gedaliah of Siemiatyce (d. 1716), who, braving numerous perils, came to Jerusalem in 1700. These appalling conditions, recorded in his book, Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, forced him to return to Europe in order to raise funds for the Jews of Jerusalem.
No Jew or Christian is allowed to ride a horse, but a donkey is permitted, for [in the eyes of Muslims] Christians and Jews are inferior beings… The Muslims do not allow any member of another faith-unless he converts to their religion-entry to the Temple [Mount] area, for they claim that no other religion is sufficiently pure to enter this holy spot.

A century later Canon Antoine Morison, from Bar-le-Duc in France, while traveling in the Levant in 1698, observed that the Jews in Jerusalem are “there in misery and under the most cruel and shameful slavery”, and although a large community, they suffered from extortion. [33]

Similar contemporary observations regarding the plight of both Palestinian Jews and Christians-subjected to the jizya [infidel tax], and other attendant forms of social, economic, and religious .. discrimination, often brutally imposed, were made by the Polish Jew, Gedaliah of Siemiatyce (d. 1716), who, braving numerous perils, came to Jerusalem in 1700. These appalling conditions, recorded in his book, Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, forced him to return to Europe in order to raise funds for the Jews of Jerusalem.

No Jew or Christian is allowed to ride a horse, but a donkey is permitted, for [in the eyes of Muslims] Christians and Jews are inferior beings… The Muslims do not allow any member of another faith-unless he converts to their religion-entry to the Temple [Mount] area, for they claim that no other religion is sufficiently pure to enter this holy spot.

In the Land of Israel, no member of any other religion besides Islam may wear the color green, even if it is a thread [of cotton] like that with which we decorate our prayer shawls. If a Muslim perceives it, that could bring trouble.

Moreover, the Muslim law requires that each religious denomination wear its specific garment so that each people may be distinguished from another. This distinction also applies to footwear. Indeed, the Jews wear shoes of a dark blue color, whereas Christians wear red shoes. No one can use green, for this color is worn solely by Muslims. The latter are very hostile toward Jews and inflict upon them vexations in the streets of the city…the common folk persecute the Jews, for we are forbidden to defend ourselves against the Turks or the Arabs. If an Arab strikes a Jew, he [the Jew] must appease him but dare not rebuke him, for fear that he may be struck even harder, which they [the Arabs] do without the slightest scruple. This is the way the Oriental Jews react, for they are accustomed to this treatment, whereas the European Jews, who are not yet accustomed to suffer being assaulted by the Arabs, insult them in return.

Even the Christians are subjected to these vexations. If a Jew offends a Muslim, the latter strikes him a brutal blow with his shoe in order to demean him, without anyone’s being able to prevent him from doing it. The Christians fall victim to the same treatment and they suffer as much as the Jews, except that the former are very rich by reason of the subsidies that they receive from abroad, and they use this money to bribe the Arabs. As for the Jews, they do not possess much money with which to oil the palms of the Muslims, and consequently they are subject to much greater suffering.[34]


you were certainly wrong about "100 years", since the "Palestinian struggle for glorious independence against zionist oppressers" goes back many centuries

[Sumud]

Yes I understand it's a common thread of your argument that black hats, women and children on buses are legitimate targets. ;)


Have you been taking lessons in the engineering of straw men from MGB8?
Where did I even hint at anything like this?


But I guess it's best to try to move on from your facile contention that this all about "racist rage". ;)

[Mediocrates]

Have you been taking lessons in the engineering of straw men from MGB8?
Where did I even hint at anything like this?




Right here:


Israelis are just totally innocent bystanders in the whole process, entirely without interests or an agenda or any role except as the eternal victim.


Right on this page. The five killed today - what was their crime? Paying retail?

[KettleWhistle]

To even consider this idea, you have to ignore 100 years of conflict over the land between Palestinians and European Jewish immigrants.

European? LOL!

[Sumud]

Right here:



Right on this page. The five killed today - what was their crime? Paying retail?


You don't need to try to be obtuse, really. ;)

[Mira]

Mediocrates, it’s an obvious error in this case to try to focus on an essential feature of a group of people rather than their actions, as a cause of animosity. I guess Palestinian attacks against the British were also just ‘racist rage’. Maybe there were French people who preferred to explain Algerian terrorism against French people as ‘racist rage’ too.

To even consider this idea, you have to ignore 100 years of conflict over the land between Palestinians and European Jewish immigrants. Medio your contention has more holes in it than a swiss cheese.

What it comes down to is a concerted effort to suppress guilt – Israeli Jews are an entirely innocent party. You have to be a fully paid up member of the Cult-of-Eternal-Victimhood to buy this line.

Ok. So they are fighting occupation and they are also racist. Happy now? The Arabs have been fighting occupation since the UN proposed to partition the land between the Arabs and Jews. For some reason these Arabians think that every grain of sand and blade of grass belongs to them.

[Sumud]

Ok. So they are fighting occupation and they are also racist. Happy now? The Arabs have been fighting occupation since the UN proposed to partition the land between the Arabs and Jews. For some reason these Arabians think that every grain of sand and blade of grass belongs to them.
Yes, some do.