A new jewish state

[dunky]

Recently the WZO congress was held in jerusalem. The president of Israel has come to the conclusion that Jews living in the west must make alyah. I believe that this is absurd. Jews living in Canada and the U.S. will not move to the middle east. In order to maintain their jewishness diaspora jews need a new state. A state in Africa or south America. If American jews stay in America they will eventually assimilate. The only way we can protect them is by providing them with a new land.

I welcome any insights people have on my idea

[alexbmn]

LOL.yeah in Uganda.What kind of a suggestion is that?

[dunky]

i know it sounds like a copy of Hertzl's idea that upset many zionists. Howevert there is a sharp diffrence. Hertzl's ideas were a plan to solve The jewish problem in europe. My idea is to solve Jewish assimilation in north america

[cerulean]

Why would anyone be more likely to move to South America or Africa rather than Israel?

[dunky]

1)NO suicide bombings
2)NO mandotory military service
3)Lower taxes from less military spending

[elke]

Originally posted by dunky
1)NO suicide bombings
2)NO mandotory military service
3)Lower taxes from less military spending

And how long do you think that would last? Both Africa and South America have their own share of problems. Set up a successful democracy, with economic prosperity, and you will end up with exactly the same problems.

[victot]

hey, i live in montreal too!!
a jewish state outside of israel is a tad wack...
solve the problems inside of israel, that's the solution. i feel a strong need to protect the jewish people too, but im not gonna leave my relatively comfortable life here in montreal to settle in some piece of land that has no real significance.

[dunky]

I fear that we may never be able to solve the problems in Israel.
When i listen to the mother of a hamas murderer i see no end to the war.

Where in montreal do you live

[dunky]

We have a few things in our favour to prevent the same problems from occuring in a new state.

WE have hindsight to our advantage. We can learn from any mistakes israel has made

We can place our country in a region that is less volatile then the middle east

The arabs are also the biggest anti semites
so any other region would be better

[victot]

i live in snowdon, you? how old r u? im 21.
also, im just curious, are you religeous?

ive actually thought of the idea of a new jewish state, but i dont see how it would work. for starters, are there any uninhabited pieces of land in the world? i dont thhere is.

also, i think any jew who feels strongly enough about being jewish to move from where they live to be around jews, would move to israel. it has too much significance.

also, dont forget, once a jew becomes secular enough, theyd simply move away from this new jewish state, to be in a more advanced, industrialized, fun society, like the united states or canada.

[dunky]

im 18 and i live in cote st luc
im very secular but yet i still maintain a strong jewish identity.
im sure there is some small plot of land that we can use for a small country of lets say 200,000 people

[victot]

ya, im very secular too and have a strong jewish identity, i know whatcha mean.
good ol' cote st luc, isnt that the area with the highest percentage of jews outside of israel, and possiblly new york, than anywhere in the world?

anyway, if it's between having a 2nd jewish state and not having a 2nd jewish state, id rather have the 2nd jewish state...

but i dont think it's particularly realistic at this point...

[dunky]

i dont know about that statistic but there are many jews in our city of about thirty thousand people.

your right its not very realistic at this point but a jewish homeland in palestine was very unrealistic in 1900 but yet it happened. I love living in a western jewish city and i would love more to live in a jewish nation in the west

[victot]

well, the idea of jews returning to israel, THE israel with jerusalem and tzvat and all that...
the magnitude and necessity and desire of the dream is what caused it to be a reality.
at this point, a 2nd jewish state... i dont think too many jews would go for that.

[dunky]

i want to live as a jew in peace
i cant do that in israel because of a continous war that has essentially been going on since '48
and i cant do that in north america because i will always be part of a minority

[victot]

well, just because were a minority, doesnt mean we cant live in peace, here in montreal. and i think the situation in israel will be solved eventually... (sure hope it will be, anyways)

and btw, you said you are secular... would you ever go out with a non-jewish girl if she were hot/nice/smart enough?
im just curious to know how strongly you feel about maintainging your jewishness...

[Micah]

Hehe.

Didn't you hear? There already is one right in the US.

In New York! lol

[dunky]

i wish peace could be brought to the middle east but i doubt the chances of it happening im my lifetime. I just think there is too much hatred.

yes we can live in peace as a minority i guess you are right on that point. However, we will never be able to prevent the high rate of intermarriage. It will also always be a struggle to maintain our jewish idenitity.

i dont plan on going out with a gentile
but i dont know what i would do if i met a non jewish girl who was perfect

[dunky]

how many jews live in New York city?

[victot]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

for list of jewish populations in countries and cities.

new york city - 1 million 7 hundredthousand some odd jews.

[ibrodsky]

dunky:

Are you sure you are a Jew? You are saying exactly what Arab terrorists want us to say. My experience on the Internet has convinced me that they spend more time pretending to be what they are not than what they are...

The situation in Israel can be solved. But it requires a decisive military victory. Israel can still do it, but it requires the will to just ignore what other countries say.

I've said it in other threads: Israel must make the price the Arabs pay for teaching their children to mass murder Jews so high that they will change their ways. It can be done.

The problem is that the Arabs sense weakness in Israel. They believe that enough suicide/homicide attacks will cause Jews to flee the Middle East. Just like you recommend... But it won't happen.

[dunky]

Yes i am a jew
i went to a jewish elementary school
i went to a jewish high school
my grandmother is a survivor of the holocaust
i also went to israel for two monthes
one of my best friends is israeli

im not advocating that israelis leave israel
god forbid they should be forced to flee like we had to flee europe.

what im advocating is that jews who live in the west should have a state. There is no way that a sizable amount of american jews would leave to make alyah. I say better they move to a second jewish homeland than to none at all.

i agree Israel needs to make a very powerfull military strike. They need to either expell many palestinians or hit them very hard. Either way they will loose american support. And without american millitary and financial backing israel is doomed for disaster. Can you imagine if The U.S. outlawed jewish organisations that raised money for israel?
i really doubt we will have a solution soon

[Micah]

Just like the US has outlawed HAMAS raising money for "charity" in the US?

Not going to happen.

[L@mplighterM]

Pardon me for saying so but Africa is loaded to the brim with Muslims and they use the Koran like other Muslims in the world. I don’t think Jews would be embraced with open arms in Africa.

[dunky]

If israel were to heavily attack judea sumaria and gaza, with heavy palestinian casualties. I think the U.S. might take harsh action against israel.
I am for Strong attacks but i dont think the americans would approve.
Look at all the flak israel got for operation defensive shield. If they actually really harmed the palestinians they would receive huge amounts of pressure

maybe africa is a bad idea

i am open to any ideas for other locations

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by dunky
1)NO suicide bombings
2)NO mandotory military service
3)Lower taxes from less military spending


Answers.

1 - No suicide bombings yet, but soon the Muslims of Africa would begin to appear for the Jihad (remember Somalia? )

2 - A Military is just as much a necessity in your theoretical African Jewish state as in Israel. Notice the endless military conflicts of Africa (ie - Rwanda, Nigeria, Congo, Brundi, Namidia, etc. etc)

Same can be said about South America (Columbia, Venezuela, Argentina)

Do you still believe we would not need a military?

3 - Taxes would be just as high, due to reason 2.
Besides, some politician always has a way to get his hand in our pockets.

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by dunky
i wish peace could be brought to the middle east but i doubt the chances of it happening im my lifetime. I just think there is too much hatred.

yes we can live in peace as a minority i guess you are right on that point. However, we will never be able to prevent the high rate of intermarriage. It will also always be a struggle to maintain our jewish idenitity.

i dont plan on going out with a gentile
but i dont know what i would do if i met a non jewish girl who was perfect

Stay real Dunky!

I held out for 2 years for a perfect Jewish girl.
It took alot of work, but now I found one.

Just hold out, and you'll meet 'er! ;)

[dunky]

Ibrodsky
you make very eloquant arguments yet you are not living in israel. Neither are almost six million american jews who will probably never move israel

maybe africa is not the right answer, it is just a preliminary idea. Maybe it could be a group of islands

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by dunky
maybe africa is not the right answer, it is just a preliminary idea. Maybe it could be a group of islands
Right, maybe Africa, maybe a group of islands, maybe Mars... Or maybe it's just that the Jewish state should be located in the Jewish homeland of Israel and the Arab squatters need to go back to their own homeland in the Arabian desert and take their Jihads with them. Hmmm...

[dunky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

Right, maybe Africa, maybe a group of islands, maybe Mars... Or maybe it's just that the Jewish state should be located in the Jewish homeland of Israel and the Arab squatters need to go back to their own homeland in the Arabian desert and take their Jihads with them. Hmmm...


lets be realistic, you can argue that the arabs dont belong in israel or the gaza,judea,samaria. You might even be correct, they might have just migrated recently to take advantage of the zionist enterprise. This does not change the fact that they are living there right now!!! We cannot kick them out if we hope to maintain our democratic status. Democratic nations do not expel their citizens.
Can israel absorb millions of jews from america even if they were willing to go. Israel already has water shortages now, the jewish and arab population will go up soon, so immigration from the west will only bring out disaster.
I believe the solution is that a portion of the jews from america should build a country of there own. A natural ally for israel

[IsraelAdvocate]

Originally posted by dunky



lets be realistic, you can argue that the arabs dont belong in israel or the gaza,judea,samaria. You might even be correct, they might have just migrated recently to take advantage of the zionist enterprise. This does not change the fact that they are living there right now!!! We cannot kick them out if we hope to maintain our democratic status. Democratic nations do not expel their citizens.
Can israel absorb millions of jews from america even if they were willing to go. Israel already has water shortages now, the jewish and arab population will go up soon, so immigration from the west will only bring out disaster.
I believe the solution is that a portion of the jews from america should build a country of there own. A natural ally for israel

The Palestinians can always try Cyanide... errr... I mean Saini..

:D

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by victot
well, just because were a minority, doesnt mean we cant live in peace, here in montreal. and i think the situation in israel will be solved eventually... (sure hope it will be, anyways)

and btw, you said you are secular... would you ever go out with a non-jewish girl if she were hot/nice/smart enough?
im just curious to know how strongly you feel about maintainging your jewishness...

:mad: Man! you are absolutely unreal! If the Jews are less than fifty- percent of the Population of Israel, than do you not think the Arabs would not notice and pounce the Jews like a troop of Wolves.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad want nothing, but the utter destruction of the little brave state, and the permissive types like you who doubt and question the very existence of very idea of the Israeli state makes you indirectly a gullible sell-out, who falls into the threatening enemies hands and benefits there ideals without any struggle or effort of resistence.

[dunky]

You seem to have misunderstood my convo with victot. We were talking about the jewish population of montreal. Which is roughly 101 thousand in a city of 3 million. In israel jews make up about 81 percent of the population and if you include the territories that number goes down to about 55%.

I know Hamas wants to destroy israel, they are continuing the early policy of Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc...

I am not questioning the right of the state of israel to exist. I love the state of israel and i give money to zionists groups every year to help continue its existence.

I want to build another jewish state not destroy the first one. The arabs have about 15 or so countries. The christians also have many countries. What is so crazy about the jews starting a second one. It has nothing to do with capitulating to the arabs. IT will merly prevent American assimilation

[Mr. Pumps]

:mad: I am a staunch Pro-Israel Christian man. Like Ibrodsky I smell a fish.

You say if Israel launched a retalitory attack that America will protest. True, but not cut complete Diplomatic and Military relations and aid like you suggest. In any case, Washington would only give faint objections, they would in no way threaten the integrity of a key ally in the Middle East.

This "Second" Jewish nation is improbable and agianst reality......boarding on crazy speak. What country would allow willingly for the Jewish people to claim a piece of it's territory and where would this 'Second" exist. Israel IS the Jewish nation, choosen by god for them to inhabit.

you claim Jews can live still in Israel even if they are the minority. But anyone with common sense realizes how pathetically dumb that is.The 81% or 72% Jewish majority make the country Jewish and I have a feeling you want Jews to be the Minority in order to allow the surrounding Arabs to dismantle her. Straight up, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[dunky]

i never claimed jews can live in israel as a minority. I was refering to jews in north america who live as a minority. For example i live in the province of quebec which is a french and also catholic province. I am a jew which means i belong to the minority. I NEVER said jews who live in israel are the minority. Obviously they are the majority. It is a jewish country and i never doubted that. I think if we do not curb the arab birth rate then we might have major problem in a few generations or so. I definitly do not want the arabs to become a majority. No matter how loyal they claim to be to israel they will no doubt vote to destroy israel when they become a majority or perhaps vote to join another country. If israel annexes the west bank and gaza then we will deffinitly see an arab majority withing 20 years. This has nothing to do with my opinions this is demographics.

If Israel were to kill thousands upon thousands of palestinians than even if the americans did nothing, europe would issue a full boycott. Explain to me how our small state would survive without its largest trading partner?

I am glad that many christians today support Israel. They are very wise. But why are jews in north america not moving to israel? This is what my new state would hope to solve. The existing state does not provide that remedy.

I am also a staunch zionist. I just thought of this idea recently. I see many jews in my community marrying non jews, they LOSE their jewish identity. My second cousins are no longer jewish because of this. IF israel does not provide the haven for these jews a new one is required

[Vic]

Would you let Jews from non-Western countries in too?

[I am David]

This second Jewish country will never happen, and I don't want it to happen, why is it needed?

You say people want the wealth and fun of the west, but Israel is just as wealthy and just as fun, besides, Israel has the potential to be much much richer than it is right now, richer than America. If peace could only be gotten in the middle east then Israel could focus on its economy and continue to export high tech products. Plust reduce military spending=better economy.

Israel owns, forget this second Jewish state and move to Israel, what will this second Jewish state do? Only divide the Jews even more, what needs to be done is a massive program to get Jews to Israel, forget the west, forget America, forget Canda, forget about suicide bombers, screw them, they are nothing.

LIVE ISRAEL

[Mediocrates]

Sounds like a new diaspora, a new anounim. Never again. Never.

Jews live as a minority everywhere else in the world and in those countries evolved enough like the US and Canada (and in mostly the countries where large numbers of people speak English) we live in relative peace and prosperity.

But let's not forget how unusual or hard fought that was. Where I live Jews were granted the right to vote, hold office and own real estate fully 3 years after the 13,14,15th Ammendments were ratified. Where the Union army under Grant executed General Order #11 which expelled all Jews from the Tennessee military district. It was reversed after deported Jews pled their case to Lincoln personally.

Let's not forget that the first UK Jewish MP who didn't have to swear a Christian oath was granted his seat in 1858.

Never again. Israel is the Jewish homeland and no one will take it away with any complicity from Jews.

[dunky]

who said anything about taking away our homeland. I simply say lets encourage jews who are living in north america to move to a new jewish homeland. Face the facts, israel has been around for over 50 years and very few jews from the states moved to it.

Let us not forget that German jews also worked very hard to integrate into German society, they fought in WW1, they were leaders in science and finance, yet they lost evreything. So living here in the diaspora is never certain

[cerulean]

There are already large Jewish communities in South Africa and Argentina. In Argentina many Jews are suffering (like many other Argentinians) due to the horrendous economic conditions. In South Africa the country is in crisis due to a number of factors, including a very high crime rate. Jews from these countries are emigrating at high rates to many other locations such as the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and Israel. I'm totally puzzled why you would want to set up a second Jewish homeland in Africa or South America.

[Mediocrates]

500 families/month have been making aliyah from Argentina since the country's economy collapsed. In South Africa, which has a long established community similar in world view to the German Jews of the 30's the problem is getting your money out of the country - very hard.

[victot]

mr. pumps,

i was talking about how here in montreal, it's not that difficult being a minority.
for the record, i do want israel to be a jewish state. ideally, id want it to be more than 80% jewish...

the good thing about having a 2nd jewish state in addition to israel is that it would stengthen the jewish people, which is always good.
however, i think that with limited resources, it is not the project to focus on.

dunky, i think the way to reduce jewish intermarrage is to strengthen jewish pride and togatherness.

heck, 2 years ago, i could hardly care less that i was jewish, it had no meaning for me whatsoever.
now, im quasi-considering moving to israel.

in today's canadian jewish news, there is an article which talked about facilitating and encouraging jewish students attending of jewish highschools, it was interesting.

also, there is an invitation to a "soiree sephoria", its some jewish party for young jews of montreal, on june 27.
on the ticket i got it says:
-door prizes
-narguilla
-belly dancer

woooo, belly dancers, better check this out!!

[dunky]

Victot you are one hundred percent correct. In this hour of need we need to devote our resources into Israel. This morning i bought a three thousand dollar israel bond. A second Jewish state does not need to be paid for today. It could be started when Israel does not need our donations as badly.

I'm reading the canadian Jewish news right now. I am pleased to read that our community is donating millions to israel. But i am a little upset to find out that we are not going to give so much to our jewish schools here in montreal. I guess we can make the sacrifice, but we must mantain our policy of providing a free jewish education to any Jew who wants one.

Even if we can reduce intermarriage, that would only provide a short solution. It would slow the outflow of jews but not stop it.

[elke]

Victot you are one hundred percent correct. In this hour of need we need to devote our resources into Israel. This morning i bought a three thousand dollar israel bond.

Good man, Dunky! :cool: (Victot, too! :) )

[dunky]

A reason for a second state would be that israel doesnt have a natural ally. Someone to call on when the **** hits the fan. At a time of crisis like today in jerusalem it would be great if israel had another jewish nation to give her money and manpower.

[dunky]

Originally posted by I am David
This second Jewish country will never happen, and I don't want it to happen, why is it needed?

You say people want the wealth and fun of the west, but Israel is just as wealthy and just as fun, besides, Israel has the potential to be much much richer than it is right now, richer than America. If peace could only be gotten in the middle east then Israel could focus on its economy and continue to export high tech products. Plust reduce military spending=better economy.

Israel owns, forget this second Jewish state and move to Israel, what will this second Jewish state do? Only divide the Jews even more, what needs to be done is a massive program to get Jews to Israel, forget the west, forget America, forget Canda, forget about suicide bombers, screw them, they are nothing.

LIVE ISRAEL

Thats very nice but your are living in the united states today. How can anyone living in america complain that jews arent make alyah while at the same time they remain in the states. We NEED a place that american jews will flock too

[I am David]

How would you know where I am living?

[I am David]

''we need a place american Jews can flock too"

Chances are, if an American Jew is willing to move where they live and leave everyone around them and change their life possible job, moving to an American Jew country would be just as much a change as moving to Israel, and Israel owns.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by dunky
Ibrodsky
you make very eloquant arguments yet you are not living in israel. Neither are almost six million american jews who will probably never move israel

maybe africa is not the right answer, it is just a preliminary idea. Maybe it could be a group of islands



I know how I'd like to make those Islands for you. :-)

[Layton]

Hmm.. how about making a Jew-only state inside America? I hear Florida has a nice climate with friendly people. im sure they wont mind.

[Mr. Pumps]

Israel by god's right should be strong and united. But I am still perplexed by how you, Dunky, would overcome the incredible complexities of such a move of developing a second nation in the form of Israel.

Would you expect a population in the area to give up and move or resistence from that population?

How much terroritory will this country have?

Israel does have allies in the form of Christian fundmentalists.

I propose a huge increase in US foriegn military aid to maintain Israel as the Jewish Mecca. Maybe that would be the best Idea.

[rhodescholar]

I have given this alot of thought. Those who have studied the details of world war 2 would know that the person who nearly created the jewish state, long before the UN '47 vote was Hitler himself.

But before i get to that, a second jewish state is actually a superb idea, with many significant reasons for supporting this idea:

1- there are 57 muslim nations, who vote as a bloc in the UN. Additional jewish states (why stop at 2?) might someday counter this.

2-a horrible thought, but if israel was ever hit by a nuclear weapon, the fact that jews are NOT all in one place would obviously be a good thing.

3-from a military standpoint, if israel were attacked by its surrounding arab neighbors (which i actually hope happens so that israel can crush them and expell the arabs living in judea and samaria, solving the arab problem in one swoop), a potential second front opened by another jewish nation attacking the arabs would be extraordinary. Which leads me back to my original point....

Hitler actually proposed a jewish state before and during the early stages of the 2nd world war, when he formulated the first "Final Solution" to the european jewish problem. Using boats and trains, all European jews would be sent to the very large, but lightly populated island off the eastern coast of africa called Madagascar. Only when the German hierarchy realized they didnt have the infrastructure to transport so many ppl so far did hitler go in a different direction...

By the way, the japanese and germans discussed another potential jewish homeland, Manchuria, where after the japs had ethnically cleansed it of chinese, they would send all the jews there to live. This plan was actually put forth to major american jewish organizations -which would require their compensation for each jew sent, and they initially considered it and turned it down. No wonder there are so many who hate us, the fact that they even CONSIDERED this plan where they would agree to send jews to live where millions of chinese would have been slaughtered is disgusting.

On the other hand, i have spent several years studying the madagascar solution, which might have been a superb one. It is the 4th largest island mass in the world, with HUGE amounts of natural resources, an excellent all-year climate, and most importantly, a highly defendable coast from almost any direction.

I am obviously speaking hypothetically now, but currently, the island is populated by an extremely poor and backwards indigenous people, who could only benefit from the influx of a large number of highly educated jews. Should this island ever become the second jewish nation, it would form an extremely strategic counterpoint to the arabs in the mideast. A potential "super" ally to israel, its natural resources would obliterate the need to worry about potenital european boycotts of armaments, ammunitions, etc - like the one in place now, or the french one in '67 or american in '73. (France withheld an already paid-for shipment of mirage jets, which nearly cost israel the 67 war, and Kissinger held up shipments in 73 of munitions to make israel sweat, as he mistakenly perceived an israeli "swagger" from its crushing of its arab neighbors in '67.)

Given madagascar's large supply of resources, it and israel would have enormous wealth at their disposal, assuming they acted as "sister states," and formed a military and economic alliance. This might also - perhpas most importantly - get israel out of the position of being the helpless recipient/addictive dependancy on american aid. It has been america, most of all, who has prevented israel from taking the necessary steps to defend itself. Then again, put 2 jews in a room, and see what happens...

Anyway, there are many, many reasons one would hope for such an event, as it would actually greatly help the natives there, plus improve israel's economic and military situation enormously. Any north/south american or european jews want to head over and give it a shot?

[elke]

Then again, put 2 jews in the room and see what happens...

Get 3 synagogues ;) Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading your post!

[Mediocrates]

Chinese food? I am so there.

[Morpheus]

A "jewish state" is something which I find exaggerated. Jews should have a land where they can live peacefully and quiet, but the idea of a land given for ONLY one religion, isn't it time that we get over this idea. I mean, Israel is a democracy, it shouldn't be named the "Jewish state" anymore, but a state like any other. Do the catholics have their own state? No, unless you consider Vatican city to be a country. I know there also live Arabs in Israel with Israeli nationality but the Israeli gov't wants to give the impression Israel is A JEWISH STATE. I think Israel would get a lot more support, certainly from Europe, when they could finally drop their 'zionist state'-idea, and focus on becoming a multi-cultural state, where democracy is respected, where Jews and other religions can leave together without restrictions.

Anyway, Europe is becoming more and more pro-Israeli, with all the right-wing gov'ts, this is ofcourse no suprise, especially now France, the EU's leading country on politics, also has a central-right gov't and pres't.


What about Argentina? Wasn't this also a considered option for a Jewish state after WWII? Maybe they will even like the presence of Israeli Jews there, after the European banks and American gov't took all money from the country.

[elke]

You are missing the whole point of it, Morpheus. The "Jewish State" is comparable to "Belgium", not to a "Catholic State". Democracy has nothing to do with nationalism - these concepts are not mutually exclusive, and never have been.

The trouble we Jews have found, is that even such "peaceful and quiet" places as Germany was prior to the 1930s can turn into hell on Earth. Remember, Germany was the birthplace of Reform Judaism, precisely because the German Jews saw themselves as "Germans who believe in Judaism". Theodore Herzl himself, the father of Zionism as a political movement, was such an assimilated Jew. He did not see himself as different, until he covered the Dreyfus Affair for the newspaper he worked for - and more importantly, - the reaction to it of the French street. You can say that the idea of Zionism is based on paranoia, but "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean no one is out to get you."

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by Morpheus
A "jewish state" is something which I find exaggerated. Jews should have a land where they can live peacefully and quiet, but the idea of a land given for ONLY one religion, isn't it time that we get over this idea. I mean, Israel is a democracy, it shouldn't be named the "Jewish state" anymore, but a state like any other. Do the catholics have their own state? No, unless you consider Vatican city to be a country. I know there also live Arabs in Israel with Israeli nationality but the Israeli gov't wants to give the impression Israel is A JEWISH STATE. I think Israel would get a lot more support, certainly from Europe, when they could finally drop their 'zionist state'-idea, and focus on becoming a multi-cultural state, where democracy is respected, where Jews and other religions can leave together without restrictions.

Anyway, Europe is becoming more and more pro-Israeli, with all the right-wing gov'ts, this is ofcourse no suprise, especially now France, the EU's leading country on politics, also has a central-right gov't and pres't.


What about Argentina? Wasn't this also a considered option for a Jewish state after WWII? Maybe they will even like the presence of Israeli Jews there, after the European banks and American gov't took all money from the country.

[Mediocrates]

Let's say the Beligians can live in Belgium as long as they allow Germans to move in, change the national language to German and everybody has to become Lutheran. That's what EUistan has in mind for Israel.

[dunky]

Thank you rhodescholar for your interesting ideas, they were very constructive.

I really like the madagascar idea. All we would need to start it would be a few thousand north american jews. We could lure them with our ideas and low taxes and job oppurtunities created by rich jews who would set up business. We could also offer the local population great economic prospects.

North American jews are a very affluent and educated lot. They have a great potential to start off a new land. I live in cote st. luc which is pretty much a jewish city. It has a vast amount of proffesional and business owners, who have decided to live as a jewish community, we have built it from farm land into one of the nicest cities on the island of montreal.

Israel can no longer afford to depend solely on american aid. As our new nation would develop it could provide financial aid to israel that would offset the american power.

i welcome further ideas and support
i would love to see this concept pursued

[rhodescholar]

"jewish state" is something which I find exaggerated. Jews should have a land where they can live peacefully and quiet, "

Where is that?

"...but the idea of a land given for ONLY one religion, isn't it time that we get over this idea."

Wha? Over 20% of israel isnt jewish.

And why dont u show some balance and discuss the "Arab League" of 22 nations, or the "Organization of Muslim Nations" at 57 countries? Why prove your racism by singling out the jewish nation?

This is exactly my point from the other thread, where if there were 5 or 10 "jewish states" it would be VASTLY harder for the anti-semites/arabs and their apologists to focus on the one tiny nation of israel.

"I mean, Israel is a democracy,"

The first truthful observation you've made in this post.

"...it shouldn't be named the "Jewish state" anymore, but a state like any other."

See above.

"Do the catholics have their own state? No, unless you consider Vatican city to be a country."

Wrong, look at sweden, with a cross in its flag. Many EU nations consider themselves "Christian" in their philosophy.


"I know there also live Arabs in Israel with Israeli nationality but the Israeli gov't wants to give the impression Israel is A JEWISH STATE."

And.....?

"I think Israel would get a lot more support, certainly from Europe, when they could finally drop their 'zionist state'-idea, and focus on becoming a multi-cultural state, where democracy is respected, where Jews and other religions can leave together without restrictions."

Please provide any evidence where other religions' freedoms of expression, rights,etc are not respected in israel. If you mean the West Bank is part of israel, you cant call it occupied. If you call it occupied, you cant call it part of israel where israel is responsible for their rights.

Further, zionism, since you clearly lack the background, is a desire for a jewish homeland, just as the wish by germans for a homeland.

"Anyway, Europe is becoming more and more pro-Israeli, with all the right-wing gov'ts,"

Wha? Have you read their press lately?


"...this is ofcourse no suprise, especially now France, the EU's leading country on politics, also has a central-right gov't and pres't."

And suddenly chirac has veered rightward all of a sudden? How exactly?

"What about Argentina? Wasn't this also a considered option for a Jewish state after WWII?"

In a word, no.

"Maybe they will even like the presence of Israeli Jews there, after the European banks and American gov't took all money from the country."

If i read this last sentence correctly, you perceive jews to be money hungry/grubbing thieves who are responsible for argentina's economic collapse, which would prove the following:

1-you are a racist anti-semite, thereby invalidating al of your points outright
2-you lack an understanding of national economics, and what happened in argentina
3-you should be ignored - permanently.

Which is correct?

[dunky]

I would love to see in fifty years a council of Jewish nations, which came to the U.N. with a single voice to protect Jewish interests across the world. It would be much harder for the arabs and our other enemies to single us out. Before israel was founded, we thought that if we had a nation of our own we would be protected. I believe that to a certain extent that is true (soviet jews, ethiopia, etc..). But now we need more jewish nations to protect israel itself and the jewish people. The only way a new Jewish nation would hurt israel is if israelis moved on mass to it. That is why the new nation would only allow very few israelis. WE DO not want to depopulate israel. WE want to populate a new homeland with jews who would not have considered alyah.
This new nation would only require around 50,000 to start with, we would then encourage a high birth rate. WE could begin a new powerhouse, a new era in judaism that would go down in our history books, we must sieze this opportunity.

[Mediocrates]

High birthrate and actively attracting converts are two things (sadly) we do not pursue. A country of 50,000 Jews would be I'm afraid not viable. How could it protect itself from all the takeos of the world bent on their death and destruction?

[dunky]

I never said anything about converts, although one biblical leader did convert another nation, he was later punished for that action. Actually, the religious in our community have a very high birth rate. As for defense, we could either make a military allliance with israel or with some local nation.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by dunky
I never said anything about converts, although one biblical leader did convert another nation, he was later punished for that action. Actually, the religious in our community have a very high birth rate. As for defense, we could either make a military allliance with israel or with some local nation.

you're right that's my point - we don't seek out converts and we don't evangelize which is one reason our numbers are small. other than Haredi our birthrate is quite low.