The Arab "honor" murders continue

[Toga]

Dec. 28, 2005 18:41 | Updated Dec. 28, 2005 18:43
Ramle woman murdered; Police suspect honor killing
By JPOST.COM STAFF

A 22-year-old woman from Ramle was stabbed to death in her sleep, police reported on Wednesday.

One of the woman's brothers alerted police to the murder after he found her body in her bed.

Initial investigations concluded that the murder was an "honor killing" committed by members of her family because the young woman was divorced.

Police detained her older brothers, Army Radio reported

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1135696354085&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Annaliese]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/honor_killings.htm

[KettleWhistle]

And why should anyone here care?

[Truthful Mind]

And why should anyone here care?

Two Resons...

1. It goes to show how backward and barbaric the muslim/arab culture is.

2. One should always feel horrified at the murder of a woman, irregardless of her race or religion.

[Cato]

Two Resons...

1. It goes to show how backward and barbaric the muslim/arab culture is.

2. One should always feel horrified at the murder of a woman, irregardless of her race or religion.

Unless of course the women in question are perfectly all right with honor killings.

[varian]

Dec. 28, 2005 18:41 | Updated Dec. 28, 2005 18:43
Ramle woman murdered; Police suspect honor killing
By JPOST.COM STAFF
A 22-year-old woman from Ramle was stabbed to death in her sleep,
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1135696354085&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The legacy of a pig warrior. If she had been awake, she probably would have kicked the mudering pig's arse. He wouldn't have had to save face, because then his arse and face would have matched.

[Annaliese]

Unless of course the women in question are perfectly all right with honor killings.

How could they be without being completely brainwashed? Do you mean they are like the ones who strap bombs on themselves ... at least they've been told they go to paradise and a few arab governments give money to their families ...................................

[KettleWhistle]

Two Resons...

1. It goes to show how backward and barbaric the muslim/arab culture is. And why should we care about any of that?


2. One should always feel horrified at the murder of a woman, irregardless of her race or religion. No, not really. Those are not my people, and not my problem. And nobody should be enforcing their societal standards on others anyway. In other words, let them rot.

[Truthful Mind]

1. It goes to show how backward and barbaric the muslim/arab culture is.

And why should we care about any of that?

The reason you should care about it is their barbaric culture effects everyone around it. The reason Israel is having to constantly deal with terrorist and suicide bombers and people who want Israel's destruction is because of the barbarism that permeates their culture.



2. One should always feel horrified at the murder of a woman, irregardless of her race or religion.

No, not really.
Those are not my people, and not my problem.

This proves that you are just as barbaric as they are.

It is exactly that mindset that I'm referring to.

To you it doesn't matter that someone innocent was maimed or killed or destroyed. As far as you are concerned, as long as it's not one of your people it's ok.

You sound exactly like them.

Disgusting.

I on the other hand believe that she is a creation of God, just as I am, and therefore since He bothered to create her, He also considers her life valuable.



And nobody should be enforcing their societal standards on others anyway. In other words, let them rot.

That's your own warped opinion. Who are you to decide who should enforce societal standards on others?

All societies are NOT equal. And before WWII had somebody enforced their societal standards on germany, instead of looking the other way, millions of Jews wouldn't have lost their lives in the holocaust.

[Cato]

"How could they be without being completely brainwashed? Do you mean they are like the ones who strap bombs on themselves ... at least they've been told they go to paradise and a few arab governments give money to their families ..................................."

That is my point, much of the time women are as brainwashed as the men are. I am horrified by all honor killings, and I do care about them, I care about issues like these, and I am among the few people who have been following along the Darfur Genocide, which is not easy.

However you should pick and chose your battles, and chose the ones that there is some possibility of making a difference in. Arab Muslim Honor Killings are not changeable, it is part of their primitive and barbaric culture.

Kettle the Terrorist

"And why should we care about any of that?"

Knowing your enemy? Sun Tzu's work The Art of War is as correct today as it ever was.

"No, not really. Those are not my people, and not my problem."

In a globalized world crimed against humanity are everyones business no matter who the victim is and who the victimizer is, and in an age when your sister/daughter/friend could be dating a muslim and get honor killed by his family for having sex with him/being a "currupting zionist whore" you should care.

"And nobody should be enforcing their societal standards on others anyway. In other words, let them rot."

Arab, and some Muslim societies says that everything that Islam has conquered is Dars Al Islam, or the House of Islam, and that it forever belongs to the followers of the prophet, and that Islamic Law shall be the only law known, and that anyone not one of the people of the book (I.E why do you think that the diverse religions of the Sassanid Empire are all but three dead today?) shall live there, and that Jews and Christians are to be treated as Dhimmis (A class roughly similar to Jim Crow Era African Americans, or Aparthied Era Africans in SA). Now since you do not want to be such an evil imperialist of the old style abide by their honorable and above all equal to yours culture and abandon your home to them and be a Dhimmi.

Yes there is evil, no cultural relitavism is not acceptable because everyone is entitled to liberty, justice, the right to think for themselves, and the right to make their own decisions, and yes honor killings are an undeniable evil that should be confronted. Let them rot? Well glad to know that Daladier or Chamberlin would have your vote, since that was their idea on how to contain Hitler, worked pretty well didn't it

Societies are not equal.

[KettleWhistle]

The reason you should care about it is their barbaric culture effects everyone around it. The reason Israel is having to constantly deal with terrorist and suicide bombers and people who want Israel's destruction is because of the barbarism that permeates their culture.
Israel has to constantly deal with terrorism because in 1967 the leftists failed to expell the foreigners (Arabs) to where they belong. Whining about how bad somebody is doesn't solve anything. Building a wall and keeping the Arabs behind it does. So, no I don't have to care about how they treat their women. I care for keeping them far and away, and out of my native land.


I on the other hand believe that she is a creation of God, just as I am, and therefore since He bothered to create her, He also considers her life valuable.

And what does the tooth fairy have to say on the subject?


All societies are NOT equal. And before WWII had somebody enforced their societal standards on germany, instead of looking the other way, millions of Jews wouldn't have lost their lives in the holocaust.
First of all, I take offense at your cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust. Yes, the societies are not equal. But it is not up to me to improve other people's societies. It is up to them. If their women don't like, it is up them to change it. For all I care, the Arabs can keep on killing each other. The more the better.

[KettleWhistle]

"And why should we care about any of that?"

Knowing your enemy? Sun Tzu's work The Art of War is as correct today as it ever was.

Cato, the terrorist supporter who cheers when Israelis die in terrorist attacks, how ignorant can you get?

Sun Tzu's work, properly called "Sun Tzu," same as the author, is merely a battlefield manual. He's talking about knowing the enemy's battlefield strategy, not its societal habits.


"No, not really. Those are not my people, and not my problem."

In a globalized world crimed against humanity are everyones business no matter who the victim is and who the victimizer is, and in an age when your sister/daughter/friend could be dating a muslim and get honor killed by his family for having sex with him/being a "currupting zionist whore" you should care.

LOL. My children and friends will certainly not be dating the enemy. They'll be in the IDF shooting the enemy and doing their job in driving the occupiers out of our native land, and behind the wall, where they belong. Much like these folks: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194506,00.html

[Truthful Mind]

Israel has to constantly deal with terrorism because in 1967 the leftists failed to expell the foreigners (Arabs) to where they belong. Whining about how bad somebody is doesn't solve anything. Building a wall and keeping the Arabs behind it does. So, no I don't have to care about how they treat their women. I care for keeping them far and away, and out of my native land. You need to review your history my friend. Even if all the arabs had been expelled as you suggest it wouldn't have changed anything. The barbarism in their culture would just caused them to come back with terrorist acts (as they have done).

The simple fact, that there IS a need for the separation wall, is proof of this. Simply expelling them would not be enough. You have to wall them out!

Here are the facts...

You expel civilized people, they go away.

You expel barbaric people, they want to come back and share their barbarism with you.

It is their barbarism that affects how they deal with people in countries around them, and it is their barbarism that makes the separation barrier necessary in the first place.



And what does the tooth fairy have to say on the subject?


I don't know,
I don't believe in the tooth fairy.

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And I believe that HE is the creator and master of all. But I guess you missed that part in your studies,

or are you an atheist?

If you are an atheist, then simply say so. But don't insult the rest of us who believe that God is the creator and master of all.



First of all, I take offense at your cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust.

No. What you take offense at is the fact that I stung you with TRUTH.

Sorry. You'll just have to get over it. My point still stands....

Societies are NOT equal - (nice to see you agree with me)

and

And before WWII it was people attitudes like yours were responsible for what happened to the Jews during the holocaust.

I'll say it again.

Had somebody enforced their societal standards on germany, instead of looking the other way
with the attitude that "we don't care what atrocities are going on in a country long as it doesn't effect us",
millions of Jews wouldn't have lost their lives in the holocaust. Period.

[SteveMetch]

And why should we care about any of that?
No, not really. Those are not my people, and not my problem. And nobody should be enforcing their societal standards on others anyway. In other words, let them rot.

I seem to remember the same argument while Hitler was murdering Jews. All freemen have an obligation to free other men. Most victims of Islam are Muslims.

[Cato]

"Israel has to constantly deal with terrorism because in 1967 the leftists failed to expell the foreigners (Arabs) to where they belong. Whining about how bad somebody is doesn't solve anything. Building a wall and keeping the Arabs behind it does. So, no I don't have to care about how they treat their women. I care for keeping them far and away, and out of my native land."

Because there was no terrorism before 1967? That argument can be dispelled by talking to older Israelis who faced the same terrorism in their pre 1967 youth. Something Kettle the Terrorist has no interest in. Kettle the terrorist has no interest in history, and history will have no interest in being kind to him.

"First of all, I take offense at your cheapening of the memory of the Holocaust. Yes, the societies are not equal. But it is not up to me to improve other people's societies. It is up to them. If their women don't like, it is up them to change it. For all I care, the Arabs can keep on killing each other. The more the better."

What you take offense at is that he is correct and you have no effective counter because you no he is. You know that anti-semitism was part of Nazi German Culture, and because of the arguments of cultural relativism (Around then helping the scoundrel of the world to) everyone looked the other way. As I said it is nice to see disciples of Daladier, unfortunately for you Israelis prefer the Winstin Churchill approach to the Neville Chamberlin one.

"Cato, the terrorist supporter who cheers when Israelis die in terrorist attacks, how ignorant can you get?

Sun Tzu's work, properly called "Sun Tzu," same as the author, is merely a battlefield manual. He's talking about knowing the enemy's battlefield strategy, not its societal habits."

How stupid can Kettle the Terrorist who aides terror organizations dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and supports assassination of our Prime Ministers by terrorists get. The enemy's society and societal habits deeply effects the way their army will operate in the field, and what they will do and think. Sun Tzu was right, know your enemy, and he didn't mean just know your enemy's field manual.

" LOL. My children and friends will certainly not be dating the enemy. They'll be in the IDF shooting the enemy and doing their job in driving the occupiers out of our native land, and behind the wall, where they belong. Much like these folks:"

Sounds like the words of a true bigot. Not the link, I meant you of coarse. The IDF does not shoot indiscriminately at people, you know that, oh yes thats right you don't since your a draft dodger who will never spend a day in uniform. Dating the enemy? What enemy? Not all muslims are the enemy, and one of the muslims who are not the enemy might turn out to be a cute young man, who dates a young female you care deeply for, and as a result she may get honor killed for it by his intolerant family. It seems though that you do not want to stop honor killings, and so you support young females close to you getting the axe.

[KettleWhistle]

I don't know,
I don't believe in the tooth fairy.

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And I believe that HE is the creator and master of all. But I guess you missed that part in your studies,

or are you an atheist?

If you are an atheist, then simply say so. But don't insult the rest of us who believe that God is the creator and master of all.
I am an atheist, and I've made no secret about it. Your flaunting of the tooth-fairy that you call God doesn't impress me. I don't care about your fairy tails of those of my ancestors.




No. What you take offense at is the fact that I stung you with TRUTH.
No, you compare massive genocide of foreign population (Jews) by the natives (Germans) in 1930s-40s Germany, to some antiquated societal customs that the Arab society is willingly maintaining. There is no relation of connection between the two. These honor killings are not genocide. It is not committed against some innocent foreign population. You just like screaming "Nazis" whenever and wherever, and that's nothing short of cheapening the meaning and distorting the reality of what happened during the Holocaust.

[KettleWhistle]

" LOL. My children and friends will certainly not be dating the enemy. They'll be in the IDF shooting the enemy and doing their job in driving the occupiers out of our native land, and behind the wall, where they belong. Much like these folks:"

Sounds like the words of a true bigot. Not the link, I meant you of coarse. The IDF does not shoot indiscriminately at people, you know that, oh yes thats right you don't since your a draft dodger who will never spend a day in uniform. Dating the enemy? What enemy? Not all muslims are the enemy, and one of the muslims who are not the enemy might turn out to be a cute young man, who dates a young female you care deeply for, and as a result she may get honor killed for it by his intolerant family. It seems though that you do not want to stop honor killings, and so you support young females close to you getting the axe.

Cato, our in-house Hamas supporter, I'm not a draft dodger, but you're right, in all likelyhood, I'll never spend a day in an IDF uniform. You know why? Because I look down on the IDF. Most of the IDF soldiers, and even more so the top brass, are covards who hide behind their rank and uniform.

But regarding my children, they'll be raised properly, and they won't be afraid to shoot at the Arab occupiers at any chance they get. Or to shoot at the ISM/Gush Shoalom terrorists at any chance they get. Or to shoot some Arab who put his/her toe over a no-go zone somewhere. And they certainly wouldn't date them because these people are no different than the Nazi soldiers in WWII. I wouldn't be surprised if your children would date either. Mine will be raised to know better.

[Overload]

Because there was no terrorism before 1967?

There was terrorism in Israel before 1967, (more accurately before Oslo) but it was much less prevalent, and originated and was usually stopped at the cease fire lines.


That argument can be dispelled by talking to older Israelis who faced the same terrorism in their pre 1967 youth.

Don't take it as though I am defending Kettlewhistle, but you are unabashedly wrong. The low level of terrorism pre Oslo cannot compare to the level of terrorism after Rabin armed 50,000 Palestinians and let them loose in Yesha. I have historical fact to back me up if you want to challenge me on it.

On a side note, why don't you go and finish the discussion we were having in the Azmi Bashira thread?


Something Kettle the Terrorist has no interest in. Kettle the terrorist has no interest in history, and history will have no interest in being kind to him.

No offense, but you seem to be pretty ignorant of history too.

I'll let you and Kettle get back to your angry rants now.

[Truthful Mind]

I am an atheist, and I've made no secret about it. Your flaunting of the tooth-fairy that you call God doesn't impress me. I don't care about your fairy tails of those of my ancestors.

Thank you. That is exactly my point.

Just because you choose to live in your own fantasy world where there is no God, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to.

We instead choose to believe in a world where there IS a God who values all life, and therefore choose to do the same.

Just because choose not to is your own personal hangup.



No, you compare massive genocide of foreign population (Jews) by the natives (Germans) in 1930s-40s Germany, to some antiquated societal customs that the Arab society is willingly maintaining. There is no relation of connection between the two. These honor killings are not genocide.

It doesn't matter whether the murder is genocide.

Whether it is the murder of a gender-women (Gendercide), or the murder of a race (Genocide), it doesn't matter.

The murder of innocents is still wrong. Period.

However, because you are an atheist and lack the ability to see all of life as valuable, this is probably beyond you.




It is not committed against some innocent foreign population.

Wrong.

It IS committed against an innocent population (women). The only distinction you make is that it is not foreign.

Which is EXACTLY the point I've been making about you. Thank you.



You just like screaming "Nazis" whenever and wherever, and that's nothing short of cheapening the meaning and distorting the reality of what happened during the Holocaust.

Nice try. What you are attempting to do now is what all debaters do when their arguments fall apart. You are now trying to deflect the argument and claim everybody's screaming Nazi.

Sorry, but your ploy it won't be allowed to work here.

Stay on topic please.

I'm not comparing you to the nazis, I'm comparing you to the people who, through their racist bigotry and indifference, allowed the nazis to do what they did.

[atricnorth]

i would like to see the men crying when they cannot find any more potential wives to give birth to the next generation.

they are killing their own race and identity for that matter.

[Cato]

"Cato, our in-house Hamas supporter, I'm not a draft dodger, but you're right, in all likelyhood, I'll never spend a day in an IDF uniform. You know why? Because I look down on the IDF. Most of the IDF soldiers, and even more so the top brass, are covards who hide behind their rank and uniform."

Amazing, Kettle the Terrorist/draft dodger is calling the IDF cowardly, maybe American Draft Dodgers from the 70s can call the Vietnam War veterans cowards. it would make just as much sense.

"But regarding my children, they'll be raised properly, and they won't be afraid to shoot at the Arab occupiers at any chance they get. Or to shoot at the ISM/Gush Shoalom terrorists at any chance they get. Or to shoot some Arab who put his/her toe over a no-go zone somewhere. And they certainly wouldn't date them because these people are no different than the Nazi soldiers in WWII. I wouldn't be surprised if your children would date either. Mine will be raised to know better."

In other words you will raise your children exactly the same way arab muslims raise theirs, teaching them to hate all Arabs and Muslims and making the hate so deep that Arab Muslims aren't humans to them. Israelis shoot at all terrorists they see as long as it won't cause civilian deaths, which is as it should be. Naturally one can not expect the miminum of morality from a terrorist like Kettle who advocates killing Israeli Prime Ministers just because he doesn't agree with them.

"There was terrorism in Israel before 1967, (more accurately before Oslo) but it was much less prevalent, and originated and was usually stopped at the cease fire lines."

Before Arafat it was much less well organized and directed, however starting 1964 there was a very large increase in terrorism. Anyway Kettle was screaming that Golda Mier should have expelled the Arabs from their homes in 1967.

"Don't take it as though I am defending Kettlewhistle, but you are unabashedly wrong. The low level of terrorism pre Oslo cannot compare to the level of terrorism after Rabin armed 50,000 Palestinians and let them loose in Yesha. I have historical fact to back me up if you want to challenge me on it."

We had no choice, it was either make massive concessions to the Palestinians or recieve massive blows from every other Western Country including the United States. What do you think would have hurt Israel more, Rabin signing the Oslo Accords, or Europe and America imposing sanctions on Israel?

"On a side note, why don't you go and finish the discussion we were having in the Azmi Bashira thread?"

Ok, I just haven't been coming to here as much, since I got a politically incorrect but fun game, stronghold crusader.

"No offense, but you seem to be pretty ignorant of history too."

You appear to read history selectively.

[KettleWhistle]

"Cato, our in-house Hamas supporter, I'm not a draft dodger, but you're right, in all likelyhood, I'll never spend a day in an IDF uniform. You know why? Because I look down on the IDF. Most of the IDF soldiers, and even more so the top brass, are covards who hide behind their rank and uniform."

Amazing, Kettle the Terrorist/draft dodger is calling the IDF cowardly, maybe American Draft Dodgers from the 70s can call the Vietnam War veterans cowards. it would make just as much sense.

Cato, the Arafat-supporter, why do you keep on making up your lies? Could it have anything to do with you being a leftist? Well, of course, it can, given that this is all you "people" do when you aren't busy helping terrorists kill more Jews.



"But regarding my children, they'll be raised properly, and they won't be afraid to shoot at the Arab occupiers at any chance they get. Or to shoot at the ISM/Gush Shoalom terrorists at any chance they get. Or to shoot some Arab who put his/her toe over a no-go zone somewhere. And they certainly wouldn't date them because these people are no different than the Nazi soldiers in WWII. I wouldn't be surprised if your children would date either. Mine will be raised to know better."

In other words you will raise your children exactly the same way arab muslims raise theirs, teaching them to hate all Arabs and Muslims and making the hate so deep that Arab Muslims aren't humans to them. Israelis shoot at all terrorists they see as long as it won't cause civilian deaths, which is as it should be. Naturally one can not expect the miminum of morality from a terrorist like Kettle who advocates killing Israeli Prime Ministers just because he doesn't agree with them.


No, you are lying to us again. But I didn't expect anything else from someone who supports the continuous murder of Jews by the Arab terrorists. I do not hate the Arab Muslims. Unlike you, I do consider them as human as myself. And I do believe that they deserve to be building their lives in any way they choose, as long as it is in their own countries, on their own lands. And these are precisely the values I intend to teach my children.

Secondly, I do not support killing Israeli Prime Ministers. But I fully support people who perform their civil duty in killing those government officials who betrayed the country in their attempts to sell parts of it to the enemy. Such "government officials" deserve nothing short of shame and a court marshall, and if the government fails to do what needs to be done, it is up to the citizens to defend their country.

[Cato]

"Cato, the Arafat-supporter, why do you keep on making up your lies? Could it have anything to do with you being a leftist? Well, of course, it can, given that this is all you "people" do when you aren't busy helping terrorists kill more Jews."

Well Kettle the Terrorist and Liar I didn't make up any lies, I guess the truth hurts you though.

"No, you are lying to us again. But I didn't expect anything else from someone who supports the continuous murder of Jews by the Arab terrorists. I do not hate the Arab Muslims."

You don't hate them but you are against them living in the same country with you as an ethnic minority. Have you ever read what American Bigots were saying about black people in the 50s and 60s? People were saying seperate but equal.

"Unlike you, I do consider them as human as myself."

No you don't. You support their primitive culture which results in the deaths of countless young women and girls, creates suicide terrorists and makes them constantly at odds with their non muslim and non Arab nieghbors. If you really considered them human you would not be arguing morale equivalency like Daladier did when Hitler started persecuting jews, you would agree that their culture is unnaceptable and incompatable with basic decency. Naturally a man who is teaching his children all Arabs and Muslims are the enemy, and who is planning on preventing his daughters from dating Arabs or Muslims can't be expected to have any decency though. The first people who are to benefit from a change in Arab Culture are Arabs, you know Arab Women. If you honestly felt they were people you would not be sitting here supporting the cold blooded murder of their young women.

"And I do believe that they deserve to be building their lives in any way they choose, as long as it is in their own countries, on their own lands. And these are precisely the values I intend to teach my children."

In a Globalized World things related to terrorism are everyones business, even if it is a primitive culture, and a society that teaches anti-semitism to tiny children. Arab Terrorists are created by the culture they have chosen and are created on Arab Land.

"Secondly, I do not support killing Israeli Prime Ministers. But I fully support people who perform their civil duty in killing those government officials who betrayed the country in their attempts to sell parts of it to the enemy. Such "government officials" deserve nothing short of shame and a court marshall, and if the government fails to do what needs to be done, it is up to the citizens to defend their country."

Standard terrorist fallacy. Kind of like the way Arab Nations don't have a problem with judaism, they just hate every jew alive. You are just like them in your support of killing Prime Ministers. Hey if I disagree with Netanyahu can I shoot him? Of course not, Israel is a civilized society, and political disputes are to be settled peacefully through debate, not by gun wielding lunatic terrorists like yourself and your hero.

[KettleWhistle]

"Cato, the Arafat-supporter, why do you keep on making up your lies? Could it have anything to do with you being a leftist? Well, of course, it can, given that this is all you "people" do when you aren't busy helping terrorists kill more Jews."

Well Kettle the Terrorist and Liar I didn't make up any lies, I guess the truth hurts you though.

Cato, the terrorism-supporting liar, why do you keep on making a fool of yourself? You had the gall to call me a draft-dodger in one of your rhetorical outbursts. You have anything to back up that accusation? And given that you supported Arafat (by supporting Rabin), and by extension supporting the murder of Jews by Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorist groups, you have the audacity to call anyone a terrorist? LOL!




"No, you are lying to us again. But I didn't expect anything else from someone who supports the continuous murder of Jews by the Arab terrorists. I do not hate the Arab Muslims."

You don't hate them but you are against them living in the same country with you as an ethnic minority.
...
<mindless rhetoric ignored>

You got that right! I do not hate the Arabs, I just oppose their occupation of the Land of Israel, and their attempts to genocide and expell the idigenous (Jewish) population. What they do to and amongst themselfs is of no interest to me.

[Cato]

"You had the gall to call me a draft-dodger in one of your rhetorical outbursts. You have anything to back up that accusation?"

You were never in the IDF, and you are in the group that is required to join, which means you are a draft dodger.

Hey you have much in common with Jane Fonda you know the American Traitor woman who protests against our existence, never served her country in her life and has the audacity to try hard to undermine her nation.

"You got that right! I do not hate the Arabs, I just oppose their occupation of the Land of Israel, and their attempts to genocide and expell the idigenous (Jewish) population. What they do to and amongst themselfs is of no interest to me."

Would you like a burning cross with that remark? In the words of Jim Crow "Seperate but Equal". You are nothing more then a bigot, and thank god there are only about 5 of you in Israel. Even Netanyahu the embodyment of the right wing nut would be disgusted at your views.

It is most ironic though that you support the cultural relativism garbage that on top of aiding genocides around the world is used by socialists to demonize us.

I support the only good things about being right wing, such as no cultural relativism garbage, hey I am a better "Compassionate Conservative" then you, and I'm not even conservative.

[KettleWhistle]

"You had the gall to call me a draft-dodger in one of your rhetorical outbursts. You have anything to back up that accusation?"

You were never in the IDF, and you are in the group that is required to join, which means you are a draft dodger.

Cato, the Hamas-supporter, ummm, what?


Hey you have much in common with Jane Fonda you know the American Traitor woman who protests against our existence, never served her country in her life and has the audacity to try hard to undermine her nation.

As terrorism-supporting leftist you should be the last one to try and compare anyone to the "Hanoi Jane" Jane Fonda. As the well-known story tells of her aiding and abeiting the enemy, and helping the socialists in Vietnam abuse American prisoners of war, so does your kind helps and abeits the enemy. You even defend a terrorist traitor Itzhak Rabin, and constantly support elimination of Israel as a Jewish state. Do you realize how ignorant all this makes you sound?


Would you like a burning cross with that remark? In the words of Jim Crow "Seperate but Equal".
Jim Crow "Seperate [sic] but Equal?" Do you even know what you are talking about?


It is most ironic though that you support the cultural relativism garbage that on top of aiding genocides around the world is used by socialists to demonize us.
Nope, I do not support any sort of cultural relativism. I support the cultural "do not care about third world and their antics." But as a socialist (Peretz/Labor supporter by your own admission) and a supporter of genocide of the indigenous (Jewish) population within the land of Israel, you just must be too stupid to realize how stupid you look when you accuse others of being exactly what you are.

[mbczion]

KW,

Cato does have a point....If you are required to join the IDF and you refuse to, then you are draft-dodging....How will you explain to your kids, who you claim you will send to the IDF to shoot Arab occupiers when you, yourself, refuse to serve....For the record, it is no secret that my views regarding the Arab/Israeli conflict would be considered by most Israelis to be "far-right", but when Cato is right, he is right!!!! You are no better then the radical left youth who refuse to join the IDF because it is an "occupying army"....

Cato,

With all due respect, our conflict with the Arabs can hardly be compared with the racism that the blacks experienced (and sometimes still do) in America....The blacks in America wanted nothing more than to be equal American citizens and proved time and time again that they are loyal to America, while the Arabs in Israel are, for the most part, a fifth column constantly siding with our avowed enemies, which is no surprise considered our avowed enemies happen to be their people....

The only way all humanity will come to respect one another is when the Jews keep the Torah and mitzvot and are a light unto the nations, while the Gentiles (of all races and creeds) universally accept upon themselves the seven Noahdic Laws:

www.asknoah.org
www.noahide.com

[Ossian]

KW,



The only way all humanity will come to respect one another is when the Jews keep the Torah and mitzvot and are a light unto the nations, while the Gentiles (of all races and creeds) universally accept upon themselves the seven Noahdic Laws:

www.asknoah.org
www.noahide.com


Hi MCBZion,

I was looking at the links you posted...does'nt an acceptance of the seven Noahide laws exclude followers of Hinduism and Buddhism?

[mbczion]

Hi MCBZion,

I was looking at the links you posted...does'nt an acceptance of the seven Noahide laws exclude followers of Hinduism and Buddhism?

Idolatry is forbidden; one needs to accept that there is ONE and only ONE G-d and to not use G-d's name in vain....

[KettleWhistle]

KW,
Cato does have a point....

No, he doesn't. Cato is just a stereotypical leftist. He does nothing other than spew rhetoric and make up lies.

[mbczion]

No, he doesn't. Cato is just a stereotypical leftist. He does nothing other than spew rhetoric and make up lies.

I don't agree with Cato regarding his opinion on the Israel/Arab conflict, but why isn't he right about you being a draft dodger? If you made aliyah at an age that you are already too old to serve or for health reasons you can't serve that is one thing, but if you are at the right age and in decent health condition to serve and you refuse to, why doesn't this make you a draft-dodger?

Certainly you are not learning in Kollel because I don't know too many atheists who are:confused:

[KettleWhistle]

I don't agree with Cato regarding his opinion on the Israel/Arab conflict, but why isn't he right about you being a draft dodger?

Because he is wrong. Use your brain for once.

[mbczion]

Because he is wrong. Use your brain for once.

Maybe I don't want to use my brain....Can you spell it out for me just once:confused:

[Overload]

Before Arafat it was much less well organized and directed, however starting 1964 there was a very large increase in terrorism. Anyway Kettle was screaming that Golda Mier should have expelled the Arabs from their homes in 1967.

You mentioned a random date. No such increased is recorded. In 1967-69 there was the War of Attrition between Egypt and Israel, but no domestic increase in terrorism. For that you need to provide a source.

As for what Kettle is screaming, he is right. As Benny Morris mentioned, if Ben Gurion finished the job of driving the Arabs all the way to the Jordan River, the region would have been a much quieter place. Eshkol, not Golda, had a chance to finish what Ben Gurion did not and save us all much trouble.



We had no choice, it was either make massive concessions to the Palestinians or recieve massive blows from every other Western Country including the United States.

Thats a bunch of . If Rabin did not recognize the PLO and renege his promise to no negotiate, the United States would not have recognized the PLO either. It was only after Rabin broke away from all accepted policy did the United States and Europe legitimize Arafat. Israel put itself in this situation.


What do you think would have hurt Israel more, Rabin signing the Oslo Accords, or Europe and America imposing sanctions on Israel?

Never has there been a threat of sanctions against Israel from the USA during the last 25 years with regards to Palestinian negotiations. Hence, Oslo caused the most harm.

[KettleWhistle]

Maybe I don't want to use my brain....Can you spell it out for me just once:confused:

I did not dodge the draft.

[mbczion]

I did not dodge the draft.

So, then when is your giyus?

[Cato]

Overload

"You mentioned a random date. No such increased is recorded. In 1967-69 there was the War of Attrition between Egypt and Israel, but no domestic increase in terrorism. For that you need to provide a source."

No I didn't, the PLO was founded in 1964.

"As for what Kettle is screaming, he is right."

No he isn't.

"As Benny Morris mentioned, if Ben Gurion finished the job of driving the Arabs all the way to the Jordan River, the region would have been a much quieter place."

Maybe, but then again just what did Egypt and Jordan lose between 1948 and 1967? Arguably they gained land in 1948, thus coming out on top, the US awarded Egypt the Suez Canal when the British and French tried to enforce it's internationalized status, yet the Primary supporter of terrorism and terrorists was Egypt.

"Eshkol, not Golda, had a chance to finish what Ben Gurion did not and save us all much trouble."

Niether did, the IDF would not have followed orders to expell the Arabs from their homes, and niether were heartless enough to have even considered giving those orders, and besides it is against Israeli Law to do it.

"Thats a bunch of . If Rabin did not recognize the PLO and renege his promise to no negotiate, the United States would not have recognized the PLO either. It was only after Rabin broke away from all accepted policy did the United States and Europe legitimize Arafat. Israel put itself in this situation."

Are we talking about the same Europe and America with Divest Israel signs everywere? Visit any major University you will see plenty of divest Israel signs. Pretend you are the Prime Minister are you willing to bet your nations very existence on the good will of people who desire votes above everything else? I don't hate Europe or America, I am just pointing out a known fact, you can visit an important American or European University yourself if you don't believe me.

"Never has there been a threat of sanctions against Israel from the USA during the last 25 years with regards to Palestinian negotiations. Hence, Oslo caused the most harm."

Google EU Parliament votes to pass sanctions against Israel.

Terrorist Whistle the Liar

"As terrorism-supporting leftist you should be the last one to try and compare anyone to the "Hanoi Jane" Jane Fonda. As the well-known story tells of her aiding and abeiting the enemy, and helping the socialists in Vietnam abuse American prisoners of war, so does your kind helps and abeits the enemy. You even defend a terrorist traitor Itzhak Rabin, and constantly support elimination of Israel as a Jewish state. Do you realize how ignorant all this makes you sound?"

She avoided service to her country, so did you, she helped enemies of the state, and so did you. You are very similar to her. Besides unlike you I don't support terror, and in that post you again showed your terrorist colors.

"Jim Crow "Seperate [sic] but Equal?" Do you even know what you are talking about?"

Your ok with Arabs as long as they aren't anywere near you. White Supremicists were ok with Black People as long as they were nowere close to them.

"But as a socialist (Peretz/Labor supporter by your own admission) and a supporter of genocide of the indigenous (Jewish) population within the land of Israel, you just must be too stupid to realize how stupid you look when you accuse others of being exactly what you are."

Peretz pledged to crack down on Arab Honor Crimes in Israel if he were elected, so Socialist Peretz and his supporters aren't the cultural relativists, the jurks with no sould like you who support allowing Honor Killings are though.

"I did not dodge the draft."

Yes you did.

mbczion

"With all due respect, our conflict with the Arabs can hardly be compared with the racism that the blacks experienced (and sometimes still do) in America....The blacks in America wanted nothing more than to be equal American citizens and proved time and time again that they are loyal to America, while the Arabs in Israel are, for the most part, a fifth column constantly siding with our avowed enemies, which is no surprise considered our avowed enemies happen to be their people...."

I agree, it was never my intention to equate Arab Israelis to African Americans, please read the posts by Kettle Whistle I was responding to in otder to see the context of my statements.

[KettleWhistle]

Cato the Arafatist, you are yet, to give us any proof of your pathetic lies. I'm waiting for you to demonstrate to the membership of this forum a shred of evidence that would back up your ad hominem accusations about me supposedly dodging the draft, or refusing to serve my country. As most here are aware, empty rhetoricians like your terrorist-supporting self can only mouth off about hypotheticals of which they know nothing about. So here's your chance to show us that what you say is worth anything, at all.

So do feel free to embarass yourself once again, and to be made a fool of, as I will demonstrate time and time again, that all you can present to us is just a bunch of bunk.

[redcake]

Cato- Why talk about when the PLO was formed? Why not talk about when the Muslim Brotherhood was formed, instead? If we're going to talk about the start of organized terror against Jews, that started in the 20's, and I'm sure there is a strong argument saying it started even earlier then that.

Another historical confusion you seem to make is the case for Rabin. The PLO were viewed as fringe crackpots, even with the American-Leftists fever to demonize Israel. The truth is, the divestments, and real loud gestures of condemnation you speak of, weren't so commoplace untill AFTER Arafat returned for his Peace posing. It wasn't till Arafat got that Peace prize, that the world turned on Israel, and completely erased from memory the crimes committed by the PLO. After 9/11, those of us who weren't suffering from amnesia had to start from scratch and remind people of just who Arafat was. This is recent history, Cato. Before Oslo, the chances of being called a Zionist-Nazi dog by some 19 year old college kid from the midwest were non-existant.

[mbczion]

I am no Chabadnick, but the late Rebbe had it right when he said, even before the dismantling of Yamit, the following:

"Mesirat shetachim sakana le'milyonei yehudim...." (Giving away territory will endanger the lives of millions of Jews....)

Since Oslo, we are seeing crystal clear what the Rebbe meant....

[Mediocrates]

At this point I'm willing to accept that ordinary Palestinians commit ordinary murders and then call them honor killings in the hope they can get away with it. Just like so called 'collaborators' are often guilty of no more than having a nicer car or apartment than their neighbor. We ourselves are guilty of bigotry if we believe that these people are otherwise special or different or more humane than anyone else. No - they're brutal, criminal, violent just like everyone else. Here in the states drunks who beat their wives to death 'because the bitch mouthed off agin' I'm sure think they're defending their own honor too in some perverted way. But we know what it really is. I mean unless you live in Texas or Brazil where it's sort of not illegal to murder your cheating spouse, you can understand this. Let the Palestinians call it whatever they want. Let them sacrifice their first borns to the flames of Baal like the Canaanites. We know that it's still just murder.

[Mediocrates]

...

[Mediocrates]

At this point I'm willing to accept that ordinary Palestinians commit ordinary murders and then call them honor killings in the hope they can get away with it. Just like so called 'collaborators' are often guilty of no more than having a nicer car or apartment than their neighbor. We ourselves are guilty of bigotry if we believe that these people are otherwise special or different or more humane than anyone else. No - they're brutal, criminal, violent just like everyone else. Here in the states drunks who beat their wives to death 'because the bitch mouthed off agin' I'm sure think they're defending their own honor too in some perverted way. But we know what it really is. I mean unless you live in Texas or Brazil where it's sort of not illegal to murder your cheating spouse, you can understand this. Let the Palestinians call it whatever they want. Let them sacrifice their first borns to the flames of Baal like the Canaanites. We know that it's still just murder.

[Mediocrates]

Dec. 28, 2005 18:41 | Updated Dec. 28, 2005 18:43
Ramle woman murdered; Police suspect honor killing
By JPOST.COM STAFF

A 22-year-old woman from Ramle was stabbed to death in her sleep, police reported on Wednesday.

One of the woman's brothers alerted police to the murder after he found her body in her bed.

Initial investigations concluded that the murder was an "honor killing" committed by members of her family because the young woman was divorced.

Police detained her older brothers, Army Radio reported

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1135696354085&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


At this point I'm willing to accept that ordinary Palestinians commit ordinary murders and then call them honor killings in the hope they can get away with it. Just like so called 'collaborators' are often guilty of no more than having a nicer car or apartment than their neighbor. We ourselves are guilty of bigotry if we believe that these people are otherwise special or different or more humane than anyone else. No - they're brutal, criminal, violent just like everyone else. Here in the states drunks who beat their wives to death 'because the bitch mouthed off agin' I'm sure think they're defending their own honor too in some perverted way. But we know what it really is. I mean unless you live in Texas or Brazil where it's sort of not illegal to murder your cheating spouse, you can understand this. Let the Palestinians call it whatever they want. Let them sacrifice their first borns to the flames of Baal like the Canaanites. We know that it's still just murder.

[Mediocrates]

ok that was interesting - pls disregard all the dupes. Vbulletin is choking on our brilliance.

[Annaliese]

pls disregard all the dupes.

:D I'm doing my best, but sometimes they just get to me! :D

[minusthejihad]

where it's sort of not illegal to murder your cheating spouse

Personally, I consider infidelity worse than murder. But that's just me. Though if I did come home to find my wife cheating on me, I'd kill them both.

[minusthejihad]

OK, fine, I wouldn't. :) But I still consider cheating the ultimate crime.

[Cato]

Cato the Arafatist, you are yet, to give us any proof of your pathetic lies. I'm waiting for you to demonstrate to the membership of this forum a shred of evidence that would back up your ad hominem accusations about me supposedly dodging the draft, or refusing to serve my country. As most here are aware, empty rhetoricians like your terrorist-supporting self can only mouth off about hypotheticals of which they know nothing about. So here's your chance to show us that what you say is worth anything, at all.

So do feel free to embarass yourself once again, and to be made a fool of, as I will demonstrate time and time again, that all you can present to us is just a bunch of bunk.

I already have proven you dodged the draft. If you didn't dodge the draft you would have served in the military, which has something for everyone to do.

"Why talk about when the PLO was formed? Why not talk about when the Muslim Brotherhood was formed, instead? If we're going to talk about the start of organized terror against Jews, that started in the 20's, and I'm sure there is a strong argument saying it started even earlier then that."

Because untill the founding of Hamas (Which was a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the time and has strong ties with it ever since) the Muslim Brotherhood's atrocities were mainly confined to killing minorities, women who tried to assert their human rights, and pogressive men in Muslim Lands. I am not ok with that, but comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the PLO is like trying to compare the Spanish Inquisition to Al Queda. Both are evil but in different ways.

"Another historical confusion you seem to make is the case for Rabin. The PLO were viewed as fringe crackpots, even with the American-Leftists fever to demonize Israel. The truth is, the divestments, and real loud gestures of condemnation you speak of, weren't so commoplace untill AFTER Arafat returned for his Peace posing. It wasn't till Arafat got that Peace prize, that the world turned on Israel, and completely erased from memory the crimes committed by the PLO."

It started before it. Remember the Best Seller from Beirut To Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman? Not to mention all of the support Arafat and the PLO got from College Students during the 70s and 80s. The anti-Israel phenomenon was around before Oslo, you know that. The chances of getting called as you said a zionist nazi dog was pretty high before Oslo.

"After 9/11, those of us who weren't suffering from amnesia had to start from scratch and remind people of just who Arafat was. This is recent history, Cato. Before Oslo, the chances of being called a Zionist-Nazi dog by some 19 year old college kid from the midwest were non-existant."

I must have just imagined being attacked in Paris by a bunch of Muslims for being a "Zionist propagandaist of the worst kind" then. I got plenty of abuse in the United States as well as Europe for being Israeli. I mentioned from Bierut to Jerusalem (Which not only demonized us but also decided to demonize the Maronites in order to make Israel seem worse), I should also have mentioned the fact that Ariel Sharon was already labelled a mass murderer.

Mediocrates Palestinian and Arab Culture encourages these atrocities, and families including the women of the family are socialized to try their hardest to cover them up in order to enforce these honor murders and make them part of daily life. That however is not true of the United States which works hard to stop drunks from beating their wives, although there are many flaws in the United States, Europe, and Israel the West does infact work very hard to stop crimes against women and doesn't hesitate to prosecute wife beaters, unless of coarse the wife beater in question is a Muslim (Irshad Manji wrote a good article on that, you can probably find it at her website www.muslim-refusenik.com).

minusthejihad if you hate adultery so much you would never have survived in Ancient Rome were that was not only daily life, but openly encouraged untill the time of Christianity.

[redcake]

"It started before it. Remember the Best Seller from Beirut To Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman? Not to mention all of the support Arafat and the PLO got from College Students during the 70s and 80s. The anti-Israel phenomenon was around before Oslo, you know that. The chances of getting called as you said a zionist nazi dog was pretty high before Oslo."

Right and there was a documentary by Jennie Livingston (I believe) on Beirut which won an Academy Award.... YET nothing compares to the post-Oslo climate where EVERYONE now has an opinion on Israel. Best sellers, and award winning movies seeded this madness, but the 70's-80's were an easy time to openly say you were an Israeli, or in support of Israel. I spent those years in San Francisco, hanging out with the children of the radical left, and I heard it all...but it wasn't untill Oslo that it got so bad merely mentioning my political stance on the Mid-East was an invitation to an argument and insults. Anti-semitism has always existed, and so have Israel's critics, but we've experienced a spike since Oslo, without a doubt. Check the statistics detailing the rise in hate crimes against Jews...

[KettleWhistle]

I already have proven you dodged the draft. If you didn't dodge the draft you would have served in the military, which has something for everyone to do.

Ummm, what? You might be mistaking this forum of political and intellectual discourse for a school yard or a kindergarden playground, where stating something many times over (like Himmler did in the Nazi Germany) makes it believable, and allows for it to be accepted as truth.

Ooops, sorry, not here! Here we work with facts, not empty rhetoric. Can you admit that you made up those unsubstanciated claims while frothing at the mouth defending terrorists like Rabin, Arafat, Peres, Beilin, Rantisi, Peretz, and their cohorts? Or will you just be repeating the lies you made up, once again, as leftists always do, so that those who don't know better might believe them?

[mbczion]

Ok, so KettleWhistle, why didn't you serve in the IDF? It's not a trick question or rocket science....

[KettleWhistle]

Nor is it any of anyone's business, or has anything to do with the topic of the thread. The point here is that there is no way that our Arafatist, Cato, can know with specificity that I dodged the draft. To do that, she would have to demonstrate that I was either drafted or was due to be drafted, and that I subsequently decided to avoid the draft by dodging it. There is simply no way that she can provide a shred of evidence to the membership of this forum to support that position. Yet, in a typical loonie left fashion she has the audacity to espose her baseless suspicisions as facts, which they are not.

While usually I would've paid no mind to such ramblings, in this case they go to show the very character of what this poster represents, and as such speaks volumes about the reliability of the information within her posts.

[mbczion]

Nor is it any of anyone's business, or has anything to do with the topic of the thread. The point here is that there is no way that our Arafatist, Cato, can know with specificity that I dodged the draft. To do that, she would have to demonstrate that I was either drafted or was due to be drafted, and that I subsequently decided to avoid the draft by dodging it. There is simply no way that she can provide a shred of evidence to the membership of this forum to support that position. Yet, in a typical loonie left fashion she has the audacity to espose her baseless suspicisions as facts, which they are not.

While usually I would've paid no mind to such ramblings, in this case they go to show the very character of what this poster represents, and as such speaks volumes about the reliability of the information within her posts.

KW, you kind of set yourself up for this one though, by saying the following:


Cato, our in-house Hamas supporter, I'm not a draft dodger, but you're right, in all likelyhood, I'll never spend a day in an IDF uniform. You know why? Because I look down on the IDF. Most of the IDF soldiers, and even more so the top brass, are covards who hide behind their rank and uniform.

On the one hand, you are saying it's nobody's business why you did not serve, but on the other you openly say it is because you look down on the IDF and then proceed to call the IDF "a bunch of cowards"....

Considering these soldiers put their lives on the line to defend Israel, I think you calling them "cowards" and NOT serving yourself is a just a little chutzpadik, don't you?

And being the ultra-nationalist that you are, I would think that you would be one of the first to enlist in the IDF and being that you are an avowed atheist, I don't reckon you trust that Hashem, rather than the IDF, will protect us....