Does Israel need more fighter jets?

[Womble]

In the "news" section, someone has just suggested that the best way to help Israel is for the US to give us their new F22 Raptor fighter jets. Yet it appears to me that we have no real need for more fighter jets. Part of the reasons are listed in the article I am about to post below, but there are also other factors that I will mention.

[url=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3166524,00.html]F-35 or M.R.I.?

Does Israel really need another 100 fighter planes?

The end of the crisis with the United States over Israel's defense equipment exports, and Israel's return to the group of countries developing the F-35 fighter jet (also known as the Joint Strike Fighter) is a welcome, important development.

Even more than the necessary security cooperation with the United States, the project holds economic and scientific importance for Israel involvement in this project.

But along side this development, announced during Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz's visit to Washington last weekend, was another, no less important development.

Sources close to Mofaz said Israel is interested in obtaining about 100 F-35s when development is completed, some ten years from now. The announcement was almost "by-the-way", and there has been no public debate about a crucial economic and security development.

Attack plane

The F-35 will be a war plane, whose main use will be to attack land-based targets. It will replace several planes in the American arsenal, most importantly for Israel the F-16.

But it bears reminding that our air force is currently in the process of integrating new F-16 fighter planes, purchased not long ago for about 4 billion dollars.

More than a few senior officers thought, including former IDF head of strategic planning Eival Giladi, have even said publicly, that the deal was too big, and didn't meet Israel's real needs.

The new deal will be a lot bigger – if it really does include 100 planes, it will cost us more than double the F-16 deal.

A lot of this money will come from American aid, but we are still speaking about an about money that could be used for other things, or perhaps, God forbid, that we could do without it.

Buying planes is just a small part of its cost. After we've got them, there is maintenance, running costs, pilot training – each of these cost an incredible amount and come out of an already-exorbitant defense budget that every economist in the country says should be significantly cut.

F-16 or M.R.I?

The finance ministry routinely says that Israel must decide if it wants more F-16s or more M.R.I. machines in hospitals. The new deal is much more than one M.R.I. machine.

Who knows – has anybody even explained? – why we need the new plane, or how many we really need?

Israel already enjoys vast air superiority over our neighbors. Our planes can effectively deal with ground-based threats (remember, the F-35 is primarily an attack plane).

Unmanned drones

We are world-class with everything to do with unmanned aircraft.

Perhaps we could make due with a few more drones, that would be cheaper to run, and wouldn't require pilot training or endanger pilot's lives.

Many people say the F-35 is the last manned fighter plane that technologically developed countries will use. Do we really need 100 of them?

And how is the decision being taken- why is there no opportunity for the public, that will pay a heavy price for the planes, to ask questions and receive answers?

Bitter irony

In order to give a bitter-ironic twist to the whole story, the whole story comes to light the same week in which the air force staged a huge operation, including sonic booms over Gaza.

Without discussing the morality or benefit of this action, we should take note of the gap between the costs of the Israeli security projects as compared to the use they have in times of war.

But just like the public asks no questions about just what the sonic booms accomplish, it does not ask about just why we need 100 F-35s, today or in another 10 years.

Now, this article deals with the F35 vs. F16 dilemma, but it is very similar to F22 vs. the F15 which we already have. Yep, the F22 is superior in handling qualities, it's a better flier- but that's about it. Anything else the Americans can put into it, we can do the same or better- we're at least equal to them in the avionics and radars department and we're better in missiles (see the old thread in the news about why the Indian air force has beaten the USAF). And modern air combat is mostly a matter of exactly that- radars and missiles. You don't need to be all that good in maneuvering if you can acquire your targets with your tail towards them, or from a longer distance than they can lock on to you. Which renders the F22's flying advantage questionable.

More planes means more expenses. Even if a miracle happens and we get these planes for free, they will still cost us an arm and a leg in maintenance and spare parts- and we're in the business of cutting down on spending, if you haven't noticed.

Finally, what would we do with these planes? Anything we use our air force for can be done just as well with what we already have. We have an overwhelming advantage over our enemies already, and there's no shortage of ground attack aircraft. Hell, just a short while ago IAF was even considering upgrading the old Phantoms and putting them into use in the 21 century- and they would sure as hell be adequate for the job! Is there a sufficient reason for us to invest into enlarging our air power?



Well? Any thoughts?

[MGB8]

As I understood it, the F-22 incorporates "Stealth" design in its shape and hull, which are the big deal, not to mention an upgraded panel (so that pilots have to pay attention to fewer items) and better computers. The F-15 and F-16 are 1980's weapons. Its time to move into the new Millenia. Especially if it gives Israel a tactical advantage over Egypt, Syria, S.A. and Iran. THEN you add Israeli expertise.

In the end, the warplane can same many more lives then the MRI machines.

Israel is a nation always at the risk of war - its not the US, and can't afford to have US-like "why do we need such a big military debates." It simply does. Pieces of paper only offer so much protection.

[Womble]

As I understood it, the F-22 incorporates "Stealth" design in its shape and hull, which are the big deal, not to mention an upgraded panel (so that pilots have to pay attention to fewer items) and better computers.
Control panels and computers is something we can well do here. The stealth technology is another matter, and it is indeed a factor.



The F-15 and F-16 are 1980's weapons. Its time to move into the new Millenia. Especially if it gives Israel a tactical advantage over Egypt, Syria, S.A. and Iran. THEN you add Israeli expertise.
Israel has been known to use seemingly outdated technology to tremendous effect. We've won the Six Day War on World War II Shermans, and all our APCs are made out of obsolete Centurions and captured Russian T55. And like I said, the "Phalcon 2000" was considered adequate for 21 century.



In the end, the warplane can same many more lives then the MRI machines.
Only if a full scale war is highly likely. But I do not find it probable at present. What we're threatened by is the exhaustion war that does not require high tech planes.

[KettleWhistle]

The Raptors are far superior to all other planes in existence today, but they are also far costlier. F35's were designed to be way cheaper. That said, high tech planes will keep the Israeli military industry in touch with the more modern tech. But in all likelyhood, there is no need for a hundred planes.

[MGB8]

Who has that quote on his sig - the latin - if you want peace, prepare for war.

the number of planes can be debated. Should Israel do everything it can to keep a significant military advantage over its neighbors (especially in the air). Yes.

[Gilgamesh]

Prior to the six days war, the Arabs had Air superiority over us, both in numbers of jet planes and quality, the best the USSR could provide. This fact has terrorised us for 19 years.

Israel's military superiorty, is the only reason you won't see another conventional army vs. army warfare against Israel.

Large conventional army is not efficiant in fighting illegal warfare, terrorism from within enemy civilian population centers. The reason the Arabs chose that tactic is a result of Israel having a large conventional army, which must be maintained further.

I don't think the F-35 would be ready in ten years, And I don't think Israel would like to have large number of those in 20 years from now.

The deeper question which arises, is whether or not, Israel should futher relay itself on American made weapon systems, which means stratigic dependence on American good will to send us spare parts. F-35 and other American made weapon platforms are infact golden shakels on Israel's political system and wieghts on our hi-tech defense industry.

While it is important for Israel to stay in touch with projects such as F-35, Israel must develop our own home made air platforms, or at the very least, maintain self production of spare parts, at least of the critical ones, so America won't be able to pressure us through sanctions of any sorts.

Israel's F-35I must be produced in Israel.

[MGB8]

I agree Gil.. and I think the Israeli-made vs. American-made IS the key question. I'd argue, however, that the planes don't necessarily need to be made in Israel, but Israel must have the capability of upkeeping them by itself.

[Gilgamesh]

Who has that quote on his sig - the latin - if you want peace, prepare for war. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
It is one of the first morrow they teach you in boot camp. Ha'rotze Be'Shalom Hi'kon Le'Milhama

The other two are "Artillary is queen of battle" (Napoleon), and "Hard in training, easy in battle" (Balisarius)

[ShimonG]

Prior to the six days war, the Arabs had Air superiority over us, both in numbers of jet planes and quality, the best the USSR could provide. This fact has terrorised us for 19 years.


Gilga raised an important point above. Then the question becomes: Are the arabs likely to have high quality planes in the next 10-20 yrs and perhaps beyond? What are our threat perceptions? Do we envisage a bloody conventional war again.

My answer is yes, but not in the next decade. However, as the ME sinks deeper into its extremist morass, as its populations expode and so do terror strikes against Israel, Israel will have to respond to such terror by opening up perhaps simulataneous fronts against at least two neighbors at a time. I envisage limited a quick air battle to achieve air superiority followed by lightning strikes about 10-30 miles into hostile territory. This will have to be followed up by the unpalatable task of evicting occupants in the occupied zones and truly making them no-man's land.

To achieve air superiority for the IAF, without losing too many assets, we will have to have the then state-of-the-art in AtoA and AtoGr warplanes.

[Gilgamesh]

Gilga raised an important point above. Then the question becomes: Are the arabs likely to have high quality planes in the next 10-20 yrs and perhaps beyond? What are our threat perceptions? Do we envisage a bloody conventional war again.

My answer is yes, but not in the next decade...
For as long as the IAF opens a greater technological and numeric gap between Israel and the Arabs, the Arabs would be foolish to waste money on large air force the way they used to have. Here rises the problem, the Arabs will summon their allies air forces against us. Pakistan, Russia or Germany.

Conventional war of warring armies, between Israel and the Arabs are not very likely in the near future. But on longer term, nobody knows.

Israel chief security problem today (actually, since the 80's) lays with poor leadership and lack of determination. We seem to have succombed to enemy phsychological warfare, alian morality and bent logic product of the far left. Troops feel they have no legal or political backing to do anything meaningful and unreversable against Arab terrorism. The result is the morras we are bogged down in today. This is bound to change. New leaders must appear, only such process takes time in Israel's current system.

[Mediocrates]

The threat to the IAF is not other planes, it's battlefield control systems, aka AWACS and ground based C4I systems that can direct AA. Simply put the IAF can outfly pretty much anyone head to head in an air superiority scenario. But it's still vulnerable to more powerful theater systems. So one plan of attack would be for them to specifically go after all radar, telemetry and control systems (C3/4I) in the air & on the ground first using cruise missiles and drones. Then when whomever takes to the air - and the only real threats are Egypt and Saudi Arabia given the AF's of Syria, Iraq, Iran don't exist, knock them down using their own obvious advantages.

The leverage one can apply using F-22's is one of force multiplier. In 'Red Team' trials against trained USAF crews in current frontline aircraft, the F-22 achieved 9:1 air superiority with zero losses. In short, you're dead and you don't stand a chance. So given that advantage one doesn't need the same number of aircraft as one normally would using today's front line gear, e.g. F-16s. Which is good because F-22's are very very expensive and it will be years before anyone has the technology to even be able to licence build them outside of the US, if ever.

[Roland]

For as long as the IAF opens a greater technological and numeric gap between Israel and the Arabs, the Arabs would be foolish to waste money on large air force the way they used to have. Here rises the problem, the Arabs will summon their allies air forces against us. Pakistan, Russia or Germany. Pakistan? What air force? The scrambled together a total of 20 (sic: twenty) operational helicopters to help in the earthquake desaster aftermath. Germany? A little paranoid, yes? Germany is allied to Israel, not to the arabs. Russia is a problem with its unpredictable imperial ambitions IMO.
Conventional war of warring armies, between Israel and the Arabs are not very likely in the near future.Yes. The arab way is firing missiles and exploding bodywear today.
Israel chief security problem today (actually, since the 80's) lays with poor leadership and lack of determination. We seem to have succombed to enemy phsychological warfare, alian morality and bent logic product of the far left. Troops feel they have no legal or political backing to do anything meaningful and unreversable against Arab terrorism. The result is the morras we are bogged down in today. This is bound to change. New leaders must appear, only such process takes time in Israel's current system.Israel's system is democratic - forget that and wipe them out?

[Mediocrates]

Saudi Arabia has a defense budget that's in the top ten in the world. It was recently the 7th largest in the world. It's also pretty well accepted in the west though not admitted by the Saudis that every branch of the services with the exception of part of the Air Force has been heavily penetrated by Wahabbist extremist factions bent on overthrowing the kingdom. The KSA airforce has not been battle tested for 40 years really, Gulf War 1 notwithstanding. So it probably is not battle survivable past one or two days against the IAF. On the other hand the KSA has been very quietly assembling a missile force which may have the capacity to deliver chem-bio weapons to a civilian urban center though it is unknown and also untested. Considering the runup in oil prices and large amounts of cash the Saudis are floating in now this is a nontrivial concern.

[Gilgamesh]

Pakistan? What air force? The scrambled together a total of 20 (sic: twenty) operational helicopters to help in the earthquake desaster aftermath. Pakistan is modernising its air fleet, with modern American systems. Pakistan felt no hurry in aiding its earthquake victims, cause it far cheaper to relay on foreign aid. I guess the Pakis have stolen half the aid directed to the earthquake victims.


Germany? A little paranoid, yes? Germany is allied to Israel, not to the arabs. Israelis like me maybe paranoid, but this doesn't mean were are not chased after. Germany supplied the Arabs, Iraq and Syria VX (nerv gas) technology, for the spacified goal of genociding more Jews. Germany has military trade relations with the mad ragime of Iran. Germany refuses to do fair justice to Nazi war crimimnals. Germany was involved in the munich massacre. W. Germany was among the first European nations to recognize PLO terrorism as legitimate, in this Germany showed consistance with Nazi foreign policy in the ME. Germany was among the first to suggest embargo on Israel, early on the recent terror wave. Germany doesn't behave like an ally, more like an enemy. Ask any Israeli walking on the street, he'll say thesame.

I repeat myself, almost in every post I write you. High time you realize the truth about you goverment policy and do somthing about it. Clinging to self illusions or the words of some Israeli born ultra left wacos (regarding the relations between Jews and Germany), won't shed off any aunce of repsonsibility from you regarding future events.


Israel's system is democratic - forget that and wipe them out?There are so many non-leathal actions Israel can take against the Arabs and doesn't, without resulting to a 'final solution' you keep suggesting in such an alarming rigor. It maybe a surprise to you, but contrary to modern German propaganda, we Israelis are no Nazis.

[Cato]

"The deeper question which arises, is whether or not, Israel should futher relay itself on American made weapon systems, which means stratigic dependence on American good will to send us spare parts. F-35 and other American made weapon platforms are infact golden shakels on Israel's political system and wieghts on our hi-tech defense industry.

While it is important for Israel to stay in touch with projects such as F-35, Israel must develop our own home made air platforms, or at the very least, maintain self production of spare parts, at least of the critical ones, so America won't be able to pressure us through sanctions of any sorts.

Israel's F-35I must be produced in Israel."

I agree Gilgamesh, Israel should manufacture it's own aircraft as well as upgrading them.

However on the subject of pre-1967 aircraft while the Arabs has a hell of a lot more, wether the Russian or French aircraft were better is highly debatable. The Mirage series of aircract which is what we got from the french did hold it's own in plenty of other conflicts, you shouldn't underestimate the french arms industry. I would also like to take that idea further to say that Israel is the United States Allie unconditionally, and that the United States should not give us any aide money. We don't need it today the way we used to, it severely damages our image abroad, and it makes us somewhat dependent on the United States. I am glad that the foriegn aid to Israel from the United States is being phased out, and perhaps when the aid to us is over America will look at Egypt and see all of the blatant violations of the peace treaty.

Roland

"Pakistan? What air force? The scrambled together a total of 20 (sic: twenty) operational helicopters to help in the earthquake desaster aftermath. Germany? A little paranoid, yes? Germany is allied to Israel, not to the arabs. Russia is a problem with its unpredictable imperial ambitions IMO."

I agree, Gilgamesh was wrong, Germant is not an enemy of Israel, however why must you underestimate Pakistan? Remember the last time Europe and America underestimated Pakistan? Remember that the thing they developed because of that?

Gilgamesh and Roland

1. The only reason a conventional war is unlikely is because of superior Israeli Technology. If that ever dies it is back to the battlefield, which is especially dangerous since Arabs have very high tech equiptment from the Unites States and Europe, including Syria which buys American Equiptment from Saudi Arabia.

2.When did Arab Leaders ever put their people, and the best interests of their nations first? A conventional war with the Arabs will happen again because if an Arab leader kills enough Israelis he is a hero wether he wins or loses. Arab leaders put themselves first, and making themselves heroes is a great way for them to stay in power, they don't care that an army of lets say 20,000 is destroyed.

[Roland]

however why must you underestimate Pakistan? Remember the last time Europe and America underestimated Pakistan? Remember that the thing they developed because of that? Pandora's box has been opened. There is no way back to the pre-nuclear age. The construction of a nuclear bomb is easy and the knowledge is openly available if not even teached at school. The practical engeneering act is more complex though. Pakistans ambitions were never underestimated since it has an arms race with India. You don't want to tell me, you were surprised to see Pakistan following Indias test immediatly?

[Mediocrates]

Pandora's box has been opened. There is no way back to the pre-nuclear age. The construction of a nuclear bomb is easy and the knowledge is openly available if not even teached at school. The practical engeneering act is more complex though. Pakistans ambitions were never underestimated since it has an arms race with India. You don't want to tell me, you were surprised to see Pakistan following Indias test immediatly?


Not even. Simple rifle type fission devices are so well understood and so well documented at this point that they don't have to be physically tested anymore. The problem that they present is that their crude design requires one to use much more fissile material than one would otherwise. So on the front end it's much more expensive to create or acquire the material for a design that's fairly simple to use reliably. Much more complex designs which rely on far less fissile material have to be tested, simulated and engineered much more thoroughly. Of course even with a crude device operating at 3% fission conversion using 5kg of enriched material you get something in the 5-10kt range anyhow, reasonably, accounting for weaknesses in the design. It's not quite like a bad movie where high students make a nuclear device but it's not impossibly hard to make one given the right materials either.

[Gilgamesh]

I would also like to take that idea further to say that Israel is the United States Allie unconditionally, You are right, but I do not approve of this. We can't really turst the Americans to stand for us on crunch time. Both in 67 and in 73, the Americans basicly sold us off, backing away from signed agreements and gurenties they were party of. Americans have promissed us, to resist any neval blockad imposed on us on Eilat, in 1957. Ten years later, American signature wan't worth the paper it was written on.


and that the United States should not give us any aide money. I wish the American stop giving us any more aid, and they should stop arming the Egyptions with aid money too.


We don't need it today the way we used to, it severely damages our image abroad, and it makes us somewhat dependent on the United States. Unlike you, Cato, I don't really give a dmand about our "image aboard" we should never be weak again, just to please some common European antisemite.


I agree, Gilgamesh was wrong, Germant is not an enemy of Israel keep you head burried in the sand and keep buying any shallow piece of European propaganda. It make me sick you ignore so easily the nerve gas sales to Sadam Hussain. The reason you wore gas masks in 1991, is because of Germany!!! These self delustions of yours, are alarming. Wake up! What the Germans say or think of themselves is NOT collaborated with their actions and their actual possitions.

You are so faltared when the Europeans SAY they feel pity for you, you ignore the reality outside. Wake up, Cato! I don't need people to pity me. I need them to fear me, only thus I can be safe.


1. The only reason a conventional war is unlikely is because of superior Israeli Technology. If that ever dies it is back to the battlefield, which is especially dangerous since Arabs have very high tech equiptment from the Unites States and Europe, including Syria which buys American Equiptment from Saudi Arabia. I already said so before.
The sophisticated eqiptments comes also from Germany. It is not balanced out with German military sales to Israel... infact, we are under unofficial arms embargo by most European countires. Fools, such embargo will only make our industires stronger.


2.When did Arab Leaders ever put their people, and the best interests of their nations first? A conventional war with the Arabs will happen again because if an Arab leader kills enough Israelis he is a hero wether he wins or loses. Arab leaders put themselves first, and making themselves heroes is a great way for them to stay in power, they don't care that an army of lets say 20,000 is destroyed. Good point! I agree.

[Mil]

Israel does not need F-35s. It will be too expensive (both to buy and to maintain) and the F-16s definetly do the job unless there is going to be some kind of a need for bigger weapon pay load or something of the matter. The only other problem that I see is that in about 10 years time Israeli existing plane-park is going to age and F-16s might not be on the market anymore and looking into the future helps.

As of right now Israel should better invest in electronic high-tech gadgets to upgrade it's existing F-16 fleet; all that is much cheaper to develop and can be done in Israel itself and more importantly Israel is good at it.

[Mediocrates]

Also understand the F35 JSF is built to serve two masters: AF and Navy. AFAIK Israel doesn't have any intention of acquiring aircraft carriers so there's bound to be some compromises they have no need to accept.

It basically breaks down into the old model of an arms race. You only need what you can reasonably use to confront what your opponents are bound to have. If your opponents have modern front line Russian or Euro fighters and/or state of the art AA then you need parity on that basis. If not then you can hedge and stretch out the service life of what you already have. I'm not sure who has a solid Su-27/37 or MiG29/31 deployments in the middle east.

[Mil]

Syria and may be Iraq might acquire some Soviet planes - all the rest are in Libya or India. India is definetly no threat. Most likely confrontation in the ME will be between American-made weapons.

I wouldn't mind seeing Abrams and Merkava battle it out. Would probably be quite a fight :)

[Gilgamesh]

I wouldn't mind seeing Abrams and Merkava battle it out. Would probably be quite a fight :)
HAVE YOU GONE INSANE???!!!
I have friends and relatives inside these Merkavas!!! How can you speak like that, as if it's a baseball match!!!

If one can avoid direct contact with the enemy, then such contanct is avoided. This is the doctrine of indirect approch, every modern Army employs, IDF most noteably. It is a terrible mistake to go to battle with even forces. Merkava will only attack, if at all, inferior tanks systems.

Should there be formations of Abrahams heading our way, they'll have to cross the Sinai desert. By then, our Air force and AT missile crews, would finish them off.

[varian]

...The leverage one can apply using F-22's is one of force multiplier. In 'Red Team' trials against trained USAF crews in current frontline aircraft, the F-22 achieved 9:1 air superiority with zero losses. In short, you're dead and you don't stand a chance. So given that advantage one doesn't need the same number of aircraft as one normally would using today's front line gear, e.g. F-16s. Which is good because F-22's are very very expensive and it will be years before anyone has the technology to even be able to licence build them outside of the US, if ever.

According to one USAF source that I know, Israeli pilots had a 9:1 success ratio against their American counterparts in "joint" exercises. You mentioned force multiplier. Compared to the Arab world, Israel has a much smaller pool of potential pilots to choose from, and this may be an issue when considering a "very very expensive" force multiplier. On the other hand, Israel seems to have a knack for "hot-rodding" other available weapons platforms and making them perform in a superior manner to the originals. The question still arises about how each platform can perform against the newest countermeasures being developed, or already developed to defeat each weapons system.

[Cato]

"You are right, but I do not approve of this. We can't really turst the Americans to stand for us on crunch time. Both in 67 and in 73, the Americans basicly sold us off, backing away from signed agreements and gurenties they were party of. Americans have promissed us, to resist any neval blockad imposed on us on Eilat, in 1957. Ten years later, American signature wan't worth the paper it was written on."

America serves it's own self interest, and I wouldn't want it to be otherwise, America is our friend, not our vassal, and what country has EVER depended on others to fight their wars for them? Even Japan only rely's on it's own forces for possible defense against North Korea, the same Japan that spends next to nothing on it's military, why should Israel expect more help from America then Japan does?

"I wish the American stop giving us any more aid, and they should stop arming the Egyptions with aid money too."

Glad you agree.

"Unlike you, Cato, I don't really give a dmand about our "image aboard" we should never be weak again, just to please some common European antisemite."

Then who will buy Israeli Products (I assume you were including Americans with Europeans because it especially hurts our image in America). Israel can't live if it's economy blows up.

"keep you head burried in the sand and keep buying any shallow piece of European propaganda. It make me sick you ignore so easily the nerve gas sales to Sadam Hussain. The reason you wore gas masks in 1991, is because of Germany!!! These self delustions of yours, are alarming. Wake up! What the Germans say or think of themselves is NOT collaborated with their actions and their actual possitions.

You are so faltared when the Europeans SAY they feel pity for you, you ignore the reality outside. Wake up, Cato! I don't need people to pity me. I need them to fear me, only thus I can be safe."

Holland and America both sold more chemical weapons to Iraq then Germany. The difference between Germany and Holland is that Germany sells the Israeli Navy its most advanced weaponry. I didn't say all of Europe are allies, I said Germany, and I am correct, I didn't say a good allie, I just said an allie. Italy is also an Allie of Israel, and a much better one to.

"I already said so before.
The sophisticated eqiptments comes also from Germany. It is not balanced out with German military sales to Israel... infact, we are under unofficial arms embargo by most European countires. Fools, such embargo will only make our industires stronger."

The EU has declared an embargo on us true, and it is official, but Germany has not implemented it, and thank god has sold Israel needed Submarines. I am not making this up, go google Schroeder sells Israel advanced Nuclear Submarines. The Israeli Navy doesn't get much press so I am not surprised you don't know much about it.

"Good point! I agree."

Glad that you do.

[Gilgamesh]

America serves it's own self interest, and I wouldn't want it to be otherwise, America is our friend, not our vassal America considers us, and other countries, as allies. I usually means we have mutual interests. I means that we, America and other countries, are a team. America is as bad a team member as one can be. Unrelayable, who works alone, not always to serve it own long term interests.


and what country has EVER depended on others to fight their wars for them? Any country which isn't a military power. Meaning, all the countries of Europe (other then Britain and Russia, who aren't exactly European)


Even Japan only rely's on it's own forces for possible defense against North Korea, Not really. Both south Korea and Japan and Taiwan relay heavily on American troops within their territory. Japan has a self defense army, but it is very small deu to constantional limitation imposed on them by the Americans, following Japans surrender in Augost 15, 1945.


the same Japan that spends next to nothing on it's military, why should Israel expect more help from America then Japan does? 1. The nothing Japan spends on its military is several times greater then our expandiures. Japan is simply richer and bigger then us. The nothing is relative to it's ecconomy, its gigantic GDP.
2. Japan has signed treaties of mutual defense with America.
3. USAF largest stratigic air base, is in Okinawa Japan.

I don't expect or wish for American troops to defend me. I wish America to be more relaibale regarding it's own promisses and guarentees. I wish America to side less toward our enemeis, and stop providing Egypt with advanced weapons. I don't need America to run our security and impose it will on us regarding our border disputes with the Arabs.


Then who will buy Israeli Products (I assume you were including Americans with Europeans because it especially hurts our image in America). Israel can't live if it's economy blows up. On one hand, Israel can trust its ecconomy on European or American good will. We should develop and expand ecconomic relations with countries willing to ignore any boycott or embargo imposed on us. Countries such as China or India.

[qutoe]Holland and America both sold more chemical weapons to Iraq then Germany. [/quote] America have not committed a genocide against us. America also balances its support to the Arabs with the foreign aid. Israel gets no aid from Germany. Last but not least, German have the oddecity and
pretension to claim they are changed people, yet their actions do not support that. Germans are hypocrates while the Americans are not (i.e. less hypocrate) .


The difference between Germany and Holland is that Germany sells the Israeli Navy its most advanced weaponry. Israel in need for diesel submarins. Nobody elses produces such anymore. When ever Israel could have aquire diesel submarines from the UK, we would have done so, as we did in the past.


I didn't say all of Europe are allies, I said Germany, and I am correct, I didn't say a good allie, I just said an allie. Italy is also an Allie of Israel, and a much better one to. I don't know the difference between good allies or bad allies, I know reall allies and false allies. Israel never had real allies, perhaps such things don't exist.


The EU has declared an embargo on us true, and it is official, but Germany has not implemented it, and thank god has sold Israel needed Submarines. I am not making this up, go google Schroeder sells Israel advanced Nuclear Submarines. It's too early to say if the sale would continue as planned. Selling us submarines, do not make Germany an ally. Similar submarines they'd sell and operate for the Arabs, have the Arabs would need some.

[Roland]

It's too early to say if the sale would continue as planned. Selling us submarines, do not make Germany an ally.
The submarine deal will continue. Unless the green win the next elections with a majority :D
The second generation dolphins has cruise missile launchers and a fuel cell/diesel hybrid engine.
But then *nothing* would make Germany an ally in your eyes.

[Cato]

"America considers us, and other countries, as allies. I usually means we have mutual interests. I means that we, America and other countries, are a team. America is as bad a team member as one can be. Unrelayable, who works alone, not always to serve it own long term interests."

What do you expect from a super power?

"Any country which isn't a military power. Meaning, all the countries of Europe (other then Britain and Russia, who aren't exactly European)"

Your not the first person who forgot that France which has an incredibly powerful military exists, the Italian Army is not to be taken lightly either, and the German Army is pretty dam good, Germany infact is Turkey's preffered source of arms because the German Arms industry is as high quality as it ever was.

"Not really. Both south Korea and Japan and Taiwan relay heavily on American troops within their territory. Japan has a self defense army, but it is very small deu to constantional limitation imposed on them by the Americans, following Japans surrender in Augost 15, 1945."

Nevertheless Japan's generals and admirals plan defence against North Korea only factoring in their own forces.

"1. The nothing Japan spends on its military is several times greater then our expandiures. Japan is simply richer and bigger then us. The nothing is relative to it's ecconomy, its gigantic GDP.
2. Japan has signed treaties of mutual defense with America.
3. USAF largest stratigic air base, is in Okinawa Japan.

I don't expect or wish for American troops to defend me. I wish America to be more relaibale regarding it's own promisses and guarentees. I wish America to side less toward our enemeis, and stop providing Egypt with advanced weapons. I don't need America to run our security and impose it will on us regarding our border disputes with the Arabs."

You got the point I was trying to make, however the last thing Israel needs is America to be openly angry at it. Besides see above, Japan's Admirals and Generals still plan defensive wars factoring in only Japanese Forces.

"On one hand, Israel can trust its ecconomy on European or American good will. We should develop and expand ecconomic relations with countries willing to ignore any boycott or embargo imposed on us. Countries such as China or India."

You are right we should expand trade with every possible country, especially Asian Nations we know will not boycott us. However exports to Europe and America will always be a staple of our economy, and so ill will from Europe and America will always bring Israel down to its knees. Also if America boycotts us, then with American Pressure India and China would both drop Israel in order to gain American favor since America is a super power, and we are not.

"America have not committed a genocide against us."

I mentioned Holland first, do you and Holland certainly did play a major role in perpetrating the Holocaust, you know that. Besides you implied Germany is the reason I had to wear a Gas Mask, yet you forgot to mention that Germany was only third place in selling chemical weapons to Saddam.

"America also balances its support to the Arabs with the foreign aid."

And were would the Israeli Navy be if Germany were to follow Britain into the EU Arms Embargo? I know the Israeli Navy never gets any headlines, but remember our deterence against Iran is from the threat of a submarine nuking Iran back.

"Israel gets no aid from Germany. Last but not least, German have the oddecity and
pretension to claim they are changed people, yet their actions do not support that. Germans are hypocrates while the Americans are not (i.e. less hypocrate) ."

The Germans have changed. Would you prefer to live in Berlin or Damascus?

"Israel in need for diesel submarins. Nobody elses produces such anymore. When ever Israel could have aquire diesel submarines from the UK, we would have done so, as we did in the past."

The UK abides by the EU Arms Embargo.

"I don't know the difference between good allies or bad allies,"

Well you should.

"I know reall allies and false allies."

Like everyone else.

" Israel never had real allies, perhaps such things don't exist."

So then you are saying Italy isn't a real allie? Well their consistent political support, and the fact that the vast majority of Italians support Israel (Italy is the only European Country were that is so, it is also the only European Country to support the Security Fence). Well how about America? Or India? Well last but not least what about the Kurds? Israel has allies, you are just overly critical of them.

"It's too early to say if the sale would continue as planned. Selling us submarines, do not make Germany an ally. Similar submarines they'd sell and operate for the Arabs, have the Arabs would need some."

The deal has already been done, it is not too early, and the Arabs do not upgrade the Submarines and so the same German Submarines are not as effective in Arab Hands as they are in Israeli.

If you really want to find a good complaint against Germany why don't you complain about Appeasement Monkey Merkell releasing a Hamas Terrorist murdering of an American Sailor to get a German Archeologist in iraq freed.

I am not saying Germany is devoted to Israel, or an especially good allie, but the fact is that by selling the Israeli Navy it's best vessels in direct deffiance of EU orders it has shown that it is on Israel's side.

[Roland]

If you really want to find a good complaint against Germany why don't you complain about Appeasement Monkey Merkell releasing a Hamas Terrorist murdering of an American Sailor to get a German Archeologist in iraq freed.I haven't heared one true word about that hostage case. Everything was made up or told distortingly or got disclaimed the next day.
BTW Hamadi had his sentence done. He was released and expelled to Lebanon. Connection?

[Cato]

According to the AFP article I read, which I do not think has any special hatred for Merkell Hamadi was released on parole in an exchange for the archeologist.

I will see if I could dig up the article, it may take a while because the article was written the next day.

[Gilgamesh]

What do you expect from a super power? To lose it's hypocracy, and for us Israelis, to weaken our automatic trust in America. It's demaging.


Your not the first person who forgot that France which has an incredibly powerful military exists, the Italian Army is not to be taken lightly either, lol!!! You're kidding, right? Franch and German armies, exist mostly on paper. Israel alone, has seven times more tanks then France or Germany. The french have never won a war since Karl the great. The Italians had had lost the war against the Ethiopians in 1911...

Thanks all mighty, that Germany has no army today. They have constitional restrictions to have only a tokan army, these restrictions were imposed on them following the war. The Germans use Arab proxies to do their bid, now.


and the German Army is pretty dam good, Germany infact is Turkey's preffered source of arms because the German Arms industry is as high quality as it ever was. German arms industry is amazing in some fields. The Leopard IIA6 is the Merkava's most terrible enemy. But I have little respect for their Euro-fighters. Bottom line, Israels defense industry is still superior to European war industry, and in some fields (such as robotics, avionics and missile technology) we are superior to American's technology. Yet, on Arab hands, such technology would cost us Jews, dearly. A source of much grief. I have no idea why such indusrty is allowed to exist in Europe.


Nevertheless Japan's generals and admirals plan defence against North Korea only factoring in their own forces. No they are not... America's largest air base in Asia to day, is in Okinawa, Japan. American carriers of the 7th fleet are in Yokosuka. Japan's self defense army is minimal compared to Japans size and economic power.


Besides see above, Japan's Admirals and Generals still plan defensive wars factoring in only Japanese Forces. No, they don't.


However exports to Europe and America will always be a staple of our economy, and so ill will from Europe and America will always bring Israel down to its knees. Not if I can help it...


Also if America boycotts us, then with American Pressure India and China would both drop Israel in order to gain American favor since America is a super power, and we are not. Then we should be... or at least make the effort. Israel can lower much of the risks in economic sanctions threating us.


I mentioned Holland first, do you and Holland certainly did play a major role in perpetrating the Holocaust, you know that. Besides you implied Germany is the reason I had to wear a Gas Mask, yet you forgot to mention that Germany was only third place in selling chemical weapons to Saddam. Germany involvement and responsibility in selling of poison gas technology is irrelevent to the action of others. Being part of a lynch mob does not reduce one accountabilty or responsibility for murder. I am not sure that Holland was second biggest supplier of Saddam's gas technolgy. And regarding the holocaust, there is no equall the Germans in responsibility and accountablity for the worst crime in human history. There for, what ever the crimes of Holland against Israel and the Jewish people, these can never be compared with Germany, ever.


And were would the Israeli Navy be if Germany were to follow Britain into the EU Arms Embargo? I know the Israeli Navy never gets any headlines, but remember our deterence against Iran is from the threat of a submarine nuking Iran back. Without Germany, Israel would either upgrade old submarines, produce it's own submarines (at higher costs, though still it's the preffered option for us) or co-develop in collaboration a new submarines with any friendly Asian country, such as India, Singapour, South Korea or Japan. It comes down to money. German submarines are cheaper, mostly because of Germany goverment subsedies. Without which, Israel would doubtly involve herself with European made platforms. These subsedies were given for the sake of their indusries, not the sudden love of Israel.


The Germans have changed. Would you prefer to live in Berlin or Damascus? Neither of the two... but I prefer to live in Damascus then Berlin. The leopard can never change his spots. The germans are the same germans as before of the war, only with more guilt on thier hands. Aways few steps before becoming again, what they used to be and worse.


The UK abides by the EU Arms Embargo. Any way, had Israel was willing to invest more money, we could have get other, better submarines from other countries.

The fact somebody have sold us some weapons, doesn't make him an ally. Just supplier. Germany could easily sell similar submarines and other weapons to the Arabs. For example, had Russia would sell us something... would it make Russia our ally?


Like everyone else. You don't get it, do ya?
Real allies never compromise it's ally security. False allies are not real allies.
A country can be either an ally or not. There IS NOT such thing as "bad ally" as you've suggested.


So then you are saying Italy isn't a real allie? Well their consistent political support, and the fact that the vast majority of Italians support Israel (Italy is the only European Country were that is so, it is also the only European Country to support the Security Fence). You're complately out of touch with reality, are you not? Italy is not an ally. Barlescony is a friend of America, and from there, a friend of ours (to a degree). Most of the time, Italy was not very friendly with us, and had meaningful Soviet influance on it's post-war politics.


Well how about America? Or India? Well last but not least what about the Kurds? Israel has allies, you are just overly critical of them. Israel has friends, not allias. No country of the world would EVER EVER sand it's troops to aid us, in case we are attacked, the way America sent troops in aid of France (twice) South Vietnam, Sout Korea, Britain, Kuwait, Australia & the Philipines. Should Israel sign a treaty of mutual defense with India, there are far greater chances for India to respect the alliance then Turky.


The deal has already been done, it is not too early, and the Arabs do not upgrade the Submarines and so the same German Submarines are not as effective in Arab Hands as they are in Israeli. The fact Israel can upgrade and maintain modern submarines, makes the Germans more of an allies of ours???


If you really want to find a good complaint against Germany why don't you complain about Appeasement Monkey Merkell releasing a Hamas Terrorist murdering of an American Sailor to get a German Archeologist in iraq freed. It is not their worst action against us... they've released the Munichen massacre murderers very soon after their capture.


I am not saying Germany is devoted to Israel, or an especially good allie, Germany is not an ally of Israel!!! Ally is somebody who one have a written and signed treaty with him, and he is willing to send troops and equipement to it allies rescue.... usually in return of a similar favour. Israel has NO such allies, and it doesn't matter how often you or the media say so.

Alliance has a perfect defenition, which Germany doesn't fit into. There are not such things as good or bad allies. Only real or false allies. False means "not really" or simply "not". Germany is no ally. Period.


but the fact is that by selling the Israeli Navy it's best vessels in direct deffiance of EU orders it has shown that it is on Israel's side.Hardly. Israel is going to spend some 1bn USD on these things, not included spare parts and other services. Germany is the last place on earth, I would purchase my submarines from.

[Roland]

Without Germany, Israel would either upgrade old submarines, produce it's own submarines (at higher costs, though still it's the preffered option for us) or co-develop in collaboration a new submarines with any friendly Asian country, such as India, Singapour, South Korea or Japan. It comes down to money. German submarines are cheaper, mostly because of Germany goverment subsedies. Without which, Israel would doubtly involve herself with European made platforms. These subsedies were given for the sake of their indusries, not the sudden love of Israel.

Any way, had Israel was willing to invest more money, we could have get other, better submarines from other countries.
India's Singapor's and South Korea's navys have submarines made in germany. Only Japan has homemade ones.
The submarine deal has a lot to do with patented technology. While submarineconstruction is a german specialty, (here (http://www.hdw.de/index_en.php?level=2&CatID=1.202&inhalt_id=1106&art=1) is a list of HDW's submarines) I am guessing that a big portion of the patented submarine's tech is israeli owned - that makes the heavily modified 209 "Dolphin" class very israeli but built in the worldwide best construction site for conventional submarines.
You can't compare the submarine deal with a shopping tour in your local mall in Beer Sheva - although that might be complicated, too. ;)

[TDidier]

To lose it's hypocracy, and for us Israelis, to weaken our automatic trust in America. It's demaging.

lol!!! You're kidding, right? Franch and German armies, exist mostly on paper. Israel alone, has seven times more tanks then France or Germany. The french have never won a war since Karl the great. The Italians had had lost the war against the Ethiopians in 1911...

You are right only if you compare french active and israeli active+reserve, about Germany, you are definitly wrong, they have twice your number of MBTs (main battle tank) and we are talking here only about Leopard 1 and 2 (uncomparably powerfull regarding the mass of israelly old stuff).

About french victories since Karlus Magnus, there was some defeates but the victories are in more large numbers in your history books.



Thanks all mighty, that Germany has no army today. They have constitional
German arms industry is amazing in some fields. The Leopard IIA6 is the Merkava's most terrible enemy. But I have little respect for their Euro-fighters. Bottom line, Israels defense industry is still superior to European war industry, and in some fields (such as robotics, avionics and missile technology) we are superior to American's technology. Yet, on Arab hands, such technology would cost us Jews, dearly. A source of much grief. I have no idea why such indusrty is allowed to exist in Europe.

German has no army :D , you are so funny...

Actually, israeli industry is a good war time industry (and in fact the lone israelian indusry) but is certainly not superior to european peace-time industry, you are dreaming there.
Are you superior to american industry? But, you are in the american militaro-industrial complexe, that is the only way that pentagone has found for a rentabilisation for the billions they are giving to Isreal ! !

[Roland]

German has no army :D , you are so funny...
Germany has about 850 Battle Tanks operational (Leopard 2 only), but they only crowd our theme parks, since we have no army but 250,000 donothingers dressed in green, entertaining an audience of 100,000 who dress like normal people. It must be some kind of time-sharing tourism (postcards form Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) rip-off because it is very expensive ($30bn) and can't be cancelled.

[TDidier]

Germany has about 850 Battle Tanks operational (Leopard 2 only), but they only crowd our theme parks, since we have no army but 250,000 donothingers dressed in green, entertaining an audience of 100,000 who dress like normal people. It must be some kind of time-sharing tourism (postcards form Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) rip-off because it is very expensive ($30bn) and can't be cancelled.

Probably yes, that why German army rent her 5000 others Leopards from her stock to the ski stations during winter season to secure the pists...

[Gilgamesh]

You are right only if you compare french active and israeli active+reserve, about Germany, you are definitly wrong, they have twice your number of MBTs (main battle tank) and we are talking here only about Leopard 1 and 2 (uncomparably powerfull regarding the mass of israelly old stuff). Israel has no "old stuff". We have almost 4,000 tanks, a about a quarter of them in active service, made up mostly from Merkava mkI to IV. The anciant M-60's Pattons, were upgraded and refitted with systems you can only dream of. (no links... personal information... too shu-shu to mention ).
The last people of faced our "anciant relics", like the M-4 Super Sherman in the six days war, were the Arabs... who took off their boots and scattered like crazy.


About french victories since Karlus Magnus, there was some defeates but the victories are in more large numbers in your history books. Please remind me of large scale durable French victories since Karl the great.
The little Italian Bonapart, has united Europe though in some cost.. but couldn't secure his victories... so what was the net result?

I know quite a bit of war history and French history of defeats. Please recall to me the last meaningful French military victory. If there was any...


German has no army :D , you are so funny... In relative terms, Germany has no army to mention, and it's a GOOD thing!


Actually, israeli industry is a good war time industry (and in fact the lone israelian indusry) but is certainly not superior to european peace-time industry, you are dreaming there. Our missiles can chew up and anciant relics you produce anytime. Our defense industry leads the way for the rest of our hi-tech sector... which in Europe is crumbling... due to high taxations and brain drain... most of your Enginneers, doctors and Scientists are either new comming immigrants stopping by on the way to America, or Jews who are about to move back to Israel.


Are you superior to american industry? But, you are in the american militaro-industrial complexe, that is the only way that pentagone has found for a rentabilisation for the billions they are giving to Isreal ! !Ture, America shops for R&D and different other items in Israel, but we keep for ourselves the greater and better systems. Our missiles are smarter and cheaper then the Americans, as one example. Our night vision technology is equall or superior to the Americans. So does human engineering.

The Arrow system. Israel is the ONLY country in the world which offers her citizens with ACTIVE defense against incoming missiles. Europe or America don't have that techonolgy yet... Our civilian passanger planes are also the only ones fitted with active defense against missiles. Next time, fly El-Al.

We will have the money to self produce 100% of our millitary needs.

[Gilgamesh]

The submarine deal will continue. Unless the green win the next elections with a majority :D
The second generation dolphins has cruise missile launchers and a fuel cell/diesel hybrid engine.
But then *nothing* would make Germany an ally in your eyes.

I'd much rather Israel to fully self produce the submarines we need.
I don't turst Germany or the Germans. Germany has so far done nothing to prove or attempt to prove its committment for the survival of the Jewish people or even limited understanding for Israel's right of self defense.

Israelis like me, will go on do reserve duty and even fight if needs be, regardless of what the Germans or other Europeans think of us. Yet, in forums like this, I am strongly opposing the hypocratic European-German stance which is stongly anti-Israeli. Germany cannot claim to be changed people while holding such anti Israeli positions. I mean, the greatest ally of the Germans in the ME is: IRAN!!! I can not ignore that fact, and can't believe Germany "new attitude" toward Israel and the Jews. Germans are Germans, even if they change their costumes.

[Gilgamesh]

India's Singapor's and South Korea's navys have submarines made in germany. Only Japan has homemade ones.
The submarine deal has a lot to do with patented technology. While submarineconstruction is a german specialty, (here (http://www.hdw.de/index_en.php?level=2&CatID=1.202&inhalt_id=1106&art=1) is a list of HDW's submarines) I am guessing that a big portion of the patented submarine's tech is israeli owned - that makes the heavily modified 209 "Dolphin" class very israeli but built in the worldwide best construction site for conventional submarines.
You can't compare the submarine deal with a shopping tour in your local mall in Beer Sheva - although that might be complicated, too. ;)

I am currently studing procurment. The differences are not that great, only the process is longer and slower. The basic motivations and calculations are identical.

Israel should invest in our own industry, produce our own neval forces and compete with the Germans and others for diesel Submarines. We already procude our own missile boats and able to self produce even figates. Each with the punch of a destoryer at the least.

[TDidier]

Israel has no "old stuff". We have almost 4,000 tanks, a about a quarter of them in active service, made up mostly from Merkava mkI to IV. The anciant M-60's Pattons, were upgraded and refitted with systems you can only dream of. (no links... personal information... too shu-shu to mention ).

Let's say 4000.

Your Merkeva from all variant from those lasts 25 years are less than the half of that.
The rest is based on your "superM60" and... Centurion... M48... T62 and T65 ! ! !

Nothing to hadd on your impressive infantry armoured combat vehicle force :D .



The last people of faced our "anciant relics", like the M-4 Super Sherman in the six days war, were the Arabs... who took off their boots and scattered like crazy.

No, Sherman faced nothing but machine guns.
The tank battle was won by AMX-13 and airforce.


Please remind me of large scale durable French victories since Karl the great.
The little Italian Bonapart, has united Europe though in some cost.. but couldn't secure his victories... so what was the net result?

The net result? France...


I know quite a bit of war history and French history of defeats. Please recall to me the last meaningful French military victory. If there was any...

No, you don't even have a good knowledge of french defeats, there is more than you are able to imagine, but on the other hand the victories are more numerous in all part of the world.
:cool:

[Mediocrates]

Yes but for the numbers of craft you would need, building a naval shipyard of this class would be inordinately expensive. This is why the Saar 5 corvettes (really Frigates on a power to size basis) were built in the US. I think subs are even harder to build and a lot more specialised so Israel will probably continue to outsource their designs to American and European and possibly Asian yards. BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.

[Gilgamesh]

Let's say 4000. Accepted.

Your Merkeva from all variant from those lasts 25 years are less than the half of that.Agreed

The rest is based on your "superM60" and... Which is almost as good as the Merkava, improved armor, new barrle, new engine... from the original tank, only the haul remains.


Centurion... M48... T62 and T65 ! ! ! Actualy, these were T-54. T-54 had limited use in Yom Kippur war, at the bridge head on the African side of Suez canal. A single patrol of these tanks caused more havoc confusion and demage on the Egyption side then armies of modern tanks would ever do.
Other then that, as tanks, these things never put into regular use. Not even in reserves.

M-48 were upgraded several times to be on the same level as the Super M-60's. Check this out! (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/sabra/Sabra2.htm)

Today, these anciant T-54 relics were refited, re-armored into the world biggest meanest heaviest IFV's. (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/achzarit/Achzarit.html) Anyway, they are going to be scrapped, as the new IFV's would be based on Merkavas. (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/namera/Namera.htm)


Nothing to hadd on your impressive infantry armoured combat vehicle force :D . We have the best IFV's on the face of the earth, and that sir, is the truth. As I have explained in great length above.


No, Sherman faced nothing but machine guns. Which points out on good tactics and good tank use.

The tank battle was won by AMX-13 and airforce. airforce yes. AMX-13 are not exactly tanks. They lack the armor.

Super Shermans in 1973, were equipped with AMX-13 guns. AMX-13 were used as tank destroyers, not in unique formations. AMX-13 is more like a self proppelled anti-tank gun then actual tank. In other words, it is wrong to call these things tanks at all. In Yom Kippur there weren't any.


The net result? France... Exist due to a balance of powers, not by it's own power. The fact was the occupation of France was opposed and prevented by foreign powers, not local efforts or courage.


No, you don't even have a good knowledge of french defeats, there is more than you are able to imagine, but on the other hand the victories are more numerous in all part of the world. With all respect to french fiction and fiction writers, their works do not count as actual military history.

Bottom line is, 90% of your military cars and vihicls won't handle a simple modern land mine, let alone IED. European army can't handle alone any majore threat, from outside or from within. You're TOTALLY dependent on the Americans and the Brits. So you have no real basis for your patronization over us. Europe decays, never too early.

[Gilgamesh]

Yes but for the numbers of craft you would need, building a naval shipyard of this class would be inordinately expensive. This is why the Saar 5 corvettes (really Frigates on a power to size basis) were built in the US. I think subs are even harder to build and a lot more specialised so Israel will probably continue to outsource their designs to American and European and possibly Asian yards. I don't think we have problems with design. It constraction and the facilities for large scale constuction of that kind. Yet it's not something which is beyoned our capabilities. Also, it is possible for us, to collaborate with other countries. Built ship jointly with other Asian countires, co-operate with India or Korea.


BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.Most distrasing news. These would be the first full missile destroyers in the region since the 60's. It means a new branch in our arms race. Israel would soon need destroyers ourselves. There have been rumers in that direction for many years. A new class of ships in our navy, bigger then current used missile corvets.

[Roland]

Quote:
BTW Egypt gave a $29 million design bid to VT Halter marine (US) for a 200ft fast missile ship. The spec is for up to $450 million for 3 ships.

Most distrasing news. These would be the first full missile destroyers in the region since the 60's. It means a new branch in our arms race. Israel would soon need destroyers ourselves. There have been rumers in that direction for many years. A new class of ships in our navy, bigger then current used missile corvets.
"Selling us submarines does not make Germany an ally" - selling Egypt destroyers does not make the US an ally?

[Gilgamesh]

"Selling us submarines does not make Germany an ally" - selling Egypt destroyers does not make the US an ally?
complex.
On one hand, what the USA is doing is undermining Israels security and forces the region into further stage of the arms race. On the other hand, Egypt is technicly in peace with Israel. Nobody knows for sure how stable is the ragime there. We in Israel strong afraid a scenario in Egypt along the lines of Iran in 1979, where planty of Western equipement fall into the hands of Islamist fundementalists.

A friend of the current ragime in Iran cannot be a true friend of ours. This is one of the key descriptions of modern Germany.

[Roland]

A friend of the current ragime in Iran cannot be a true friend of ours. This is one of the key descriptions of modern Germany.
Germany is not a friend of Iran.

[Gilgamesh]

Germany is not a friend of Iran.

Just look what the google brought in...

Germany-Iran relations (http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/laenderinfos/laender/laender_ausgabe_html?type_id=14&land_id=63)

Let's see what's the world fact book has to say:
Imports - partners:
Germany 12.8%, France 8.3%, Italy 7.7%, China 7.2%, UAE 7.2%, South Korea 6.1%, Russia 5.4% (2004)
Source (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html#Econ)

Visit this post soon, I'll find the time to update it, add more links.

[Roland]

Selling us submarines, do not make Germany an ally.
And trading with Iran does what, Gilgamesh?

[Gilgamesh]

And trading with Iran does what, Gilgamesh?
any trade with Iran supports the ragime there, give it legitimacy and logistical breathing space. German's relation with Iran, is contradicting Israeli and American efforts the isolate that ragime and bring it to its end. Germany and other European countries exploit the ban on Iran for thier own greedy reasons.

The German-European unofficial embargo on Israel contradicts any perception of morals or justice or common sense. Trade with Iran is against moral, justice or common sense.
Trade with Israel is normal going. Trade with Iran is illegal, or should be one.

[Kawa]

The German-European unofficial embargo on Israel contradicts any perception of morals or justice or common sense. Trade with Iran is against moral, justice or common sense.
Trade with Israel is normal going. Trade with Iran is illegal, or should be one.

The iranian embassy in Bonn (former capital of Germany) was the headquarter of the iranian secret service. Here they planned and completed murder and terror campaign against dissidents all over Europe. More than 30 people got killed.

The Iranians did use german territory conciously. The german police and authorities knew about this fact, but didn't hinder the Iranians. The business ties were more important than the killing of some "Ausländer" (foreigners)...

[Roland]

The iranian embassy in Bonn (former capital of Germany) was the headquarter of the iranian secret service. Here they planned and completed murder and terror campaign against dissidents all over Europe. More than 30 people got killed.

The Iranians did use german territory conciously. The german police and authorities knew about this fact, but didn't hinder the Iranians. The business ties were more important than the killing of some "Ausländer" (foreigners)...
Surely not the headquarter, that should be in Teheran.
Foreign embassies in Germany are not german territory.
IIRC Ahmadinejad is wanted for murder in Austria.

[Kawa]

Surely not the headquarter, that should be in Teheran.
Foreign embassies in Germany are not german territory.
IIRC Ahmadinejad is wanted for murder in Austria.

The European headquarter was in Bonn. And by the way the murder of the kurds in Austria was also planned in Germany. The planning was on iranian soil, but the accomplishment was not.

As I said, it was no accident they choosed Germany. Oh forgot to mention, the Iraqis, too. I don't know much about syrian secret services, but wouldn't wonder me, if they had their european headquarter in Germany, too!:rolleyes:

No tossing and turning budy, Germany was numer one ally of all this terrorist countries.

[varian]

Here's something with possibly a better price tag.
www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/laser.htm

[Womble]

Here's something with possibly a better price tag.
www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/laser.htm

Looks like a further development of the THEL, but it would have to be a great deal more powerful. I doubt it could burn through a tank, but if the THEL can destroy rockets in the air, this one could detonate rockets and artillery munitions while on the ground or in the launchers.

[Gilgamesh]

Looks like a further development of the THEL, but it would have to be a great deal more powerful. I doubt it could burn through a tank, but if the THEL can destroy rockets in the air, this one could detonate rockets and artillery munitions while on the ground or in the launchers.

Not exactly.
It is said in the article it's a progression or a derivitive of the ABL, the huge laser used against missiles.

Our THEL, is ground launched laser. Both are chemical lasers, which are going to become obsolete in a decade. The future belongs to solid state lasers, lasers emitted by crystals. Still, the project resulted in many break-throughs in the process of the completion of the ABL and the THEL, in the fields of aiming and focusing the laser to efect.

What ever the future maybe, be sure Israel we be one of the few states in the world to have such a technology, all indigenous Israeli.

What this technology means, is the most exciting aspect of it. Powerful cheap lasers will end the era of missiles and even air force and artilary. Powerful laser cannons can, in theory, heremticly close the sky to any an authorised flying object. be it a Katusha or a heavy bomber or what ever in between.

[Roland]

What this technology means, is the most exciting aspect of it. Powerful cheap lasers will end the era of missiles and even air force and artilary. Powerful laser cannons can, in theory, heremticly close the sky to any an authorised flying object. be it a Katusha or a heavy bomber or what ever in between. ... or a car in a tow-away zone.
Nuclear deterrence did not obliterate conventional arsenals.
Not only modern conventional weaponry - even stone-throwing has not gone out of fashion yet.

[Gilgamesh]

... or a car in a tow-away zone.
Nuclear deterrence did not obliterate conventional arsenals.
Not only modern conventional weaponry - even stone-throwing has not gone out of fashion yet.
There are no stone throwings demonstrations in China or Syria or Egypt.
There is no daily terrorism either.

Arabs throw stones because they are certain we won't fire at them, and they lost all fear of non leathal massures.

Arabs who got killed in "domonstations" were fully armed.

[Roland]

Arabs throw stones because they are certain we won't fire at them, and they lost all fear of non leathal massures.
AFAIR there was a discussion about banning laser weapons because they would blind people.

[Seraph]

On 21 December 2005 the Governments of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland signed an Understanding Document, which was intended to establish a greater partnership in modernising the Saudi Arabian Armed Forces and developing close service-to-service contacts especially through joint training and exercises. In addition, the United Kingdom Government recognises the need to support the Government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in its efforts to further develop a regional defence industrial centre of excellence. In this regard, BAE SYSTEMS will invest in local Saudi companies, develop an industrial technology transfer plan, and provide suitable training for thousands of Saudi nationals providing through life support for key in service equipments. The two Governments recognise the requirement to provide enhanced capabilities to existing military assets and ensure that they can be supported by local Saudi industry. Under the terms of the signed document Typhoon aircraft will replace Tornado Air Defence Variant aircraft and others currently in service with the RSAF. The details of these arrangements are confidential between the two Governments. The agreement is reported to be for 48 Eurofighter Typhoon jets, with an option for a further 24, for a total of 72. The deal, the third phase of the Al-Yamamah oil-for-planes arrangement, is rumored to be worth more than $10.6 billion).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm

[Gilgamesh]

AFAIR there was a discussion about banning laser weapons because they would blind people.

As a reserve soldier, and a former conscript of the IDF, Israel has NO lasers or taser guns used for crowed control. Our lasers (indiginous production) used only for targeting or distance massurement. These do not cause any known loss to eyesight.

"Blinding laser" is non practicle. Allmost imposible to aim. Although I know of Israeli laser technology devised to blind elcto-optical instruments, such as the heat-seeking missile IR eye, or enemy night vision optical equipment.

[varian]

Whatever the eventual answer becomes, Israel will need more than it presently has in stock to go another conventional round. If things become "unconventional" as many predict because of the lunacy of Iran's "leaders," then I really don't know what to say about that event. Somebody on the forum that knows more about Israel's "unconventional" capabilities would have to speak to that. Would diaspora Jews support Israel by coming to their aid (both monetary & physical), or would they stand back to see how the situation played itself out?

[FOGOMAINS]

Whatever the eventual answer becomes, Israel will need more than it presently has in stock to go another conventional round. If things become "unconventional" as many predict because of the lunacy of Iran's "leaders," then I really don't know what to say about that event. Somebody on the forum that knows more about Israel's "unconventional" capabilities would have to speak to that. Would diaspora Jews support Israel by coming to their aid (both monetary & physical), or would they stand back to see how the situation played itself out?

Not only diaspora Jews should be asked. We all are all responsible and should help.
Based on the the horrible history of my country i nearly started to become a pacifist (even serving in our Air Force in the 60th). I learned that standing back is an error. It's not the fight against terrorism alone. Reading the late statements of the Iranian madman changed my views totally.

[Roland]

Allmost imposible to aim.
Every CD-ROM-drive carries warning lables and they use only class 1 lasers.
I imagine given enough power, a high yield laser could indeed hurt people.
A laser beam is easily projectable in a general direction streaming energy across a huge area.
And there is endless stuff at google about "laser weapon".
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2585
http://hrw.org/english/docs/1998/07/29/usint1194.htm

[Mediocrates]

As the Arab states and Iran long ago discovered, having shiny high tech planes is the easy part. Training, maintenance, spare parts, upgrades are the hard part. Iran's airforce for the most part is a museum because they can't or won't maintain their fleet, train their ground crews and pilots, develop a C3 and airborne theater management infrastructure. Even Saudi Arabia with its enormous wealth doesn't have a solid officer or NCO corps they can use to much of an advantage. It's a combination of factors political cultural and eclonomic.


the grunt work isn't sexy like fighterpilots
it's expensive
it requires discipline and organization
not everyone in their force is politically reliable

For example Iran now has an airforce perhaps 10-15% the capability of the Shah's air force. They have invested in air defense missiles and radar but their offensive capability is little more than border patrol against their own local neighbors. It wouldn't withstand a war operations duty cycle for more than a few days, less than a week. One US carrier has more air power and can cycle for weeks in normal war operations.

[Gilgamesh]

The Parsis have almost conquered the world, with no hi-tech gadegets.
The Parsis have never forgot their lost empire (which was relatively enlighted at the time... ), and might consider doing so again.

The Iranians have long range missiles and terror organizations to overcome the absence of their navy fleets or air force. Human waves were and are the most efficiant tactic the Parsis / Iranians have always used. I think they will invade Iraq or Afganistan before this decade is out.

As for the lasers.
Lasers greaters problem is dispersion, which means it loses energy fast as the range increases.

The Dazeling laser was used as non leathal weapon in Somalia. The blinding laser for the F-35 is eperimantal. ABL and TEHL projects of huge lasers made to intercept hostile missiles, is still underway. This lasers are HUGE and extremly complex to maintain and operate. They use massive mirrors, huge gas tanks and lenses to focuse the laser to preserve it's efficiancy of the efficiant range. Only a 747 can carry an ABL. THEL is used from either stanionary or from rail-road car, and it too is designed to attack only low level flying targets. (such as artilary pieces).

Death Rays or Tesla weapons, must appear by mid century. Yet I think It'll be Israeli technology, maybe the Americans would claim to have somthing similar, and the EU would claim they could have one had they wanted. (just to calm their public).

Buttom line, Israel do not have or need, blinding laser. I means, that other then the curiosity, it is irrelevent to Israel or this discation.

Lets change the subject, will we?
Taser gun, yes or no. The current situation in Israel, is that carrying or using a Taser gun is illegal. Many police authorities in America, love their tasers.
I think tasers should have been an important and central non-leathal weapons in Israel security services, and is a superior alternative to any situation where calm words are not enough to stop a beserker.

[varian]

Since Israel doesn't have a large pool of potential pilots in the wings, what about umanned UAV's? An X2000 Raven Hovtol Stealth Combat UAV may be too expensive, but equipment similar to the Predator, Global Hawk, Silver Fox, or Dragon Eye should be within budget. Drone type aircraft are nothing new to Israel's defense. I remember reading an article (years ago) that drones were used to record the Soviet SAM 6 multiphased radar before going against Syria's air farce. If these types of weapons are lost, you don't loose the human asset with the bird, plus you don't have to bunch the operators into one location. Anything along these lines in the works? If it's an "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" situation, then forget I asked.

[varian]

I just found this piece. Since the PLA deals arms to terrorists (through channels of course), thanks to Yamaha, this may baby be developed and handed off to foes of Israel.
http://www.softwar.net/polytech.html

[Seraph]

Since Israel doesn't have a large pool of potential pilots in the wings, what about umanned UAV's? An X2000 Raven Hovtol Stealth Combat UAV may be too expensive, but equipment similar to the Predator, Global Hawk, Silver Fox, or Dragon Eye should be within budget. Drone type aircraft are nothing new to Israel's defense. I remember reading an article (years ago) that drones were used to record the Soviet SAM 6 multiphased radar before going against Syria's air farce. If these types of weapons are lost, you don't loose the human asset with the bird, plus you don't have to bunch the operators into one location. Anything along these lines in the works? If it's an "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" situation, then forget I asked.

An X2000 Raven Hovtol Stealth Combat UAV may be too expensive, but equipment similar to the Predator, Global Hawk, Silver Fox, or Dragon Eye should be within budget.

nah