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StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 08:12 AM
http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/bal-op.palestinians17jun17.story?coll=bal%2Dpe%2Dopini on

NewsGuy
06-19-2002, 09:44 AM
Instead of just posting the link, please post some excerpts that you'd like to discuss specifically.

alexbmn
06-19-2002, 09:52 AM
wow what a joke of an article.LOL In three seconds any Israeli supporter can come up with a rebuttal that will send this loser reeling

Mediocrates
06-19-2002, 10:42 AM
What should Palestinians think....


I don't know about you but I'd start thinking I need to either bootstrap my proto state into something humane and recognizable, or just move. It don't look like Uncle Yasser gonna be givin me 40 acres and a mule and "refugee" just aint workin on my resume - :mad:

IsraelAdvocate
06-19-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by StephenNichols
http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/bal-op.palestinians17jun17.story?coll=bal%2Dpe%2Dopini on

I'll tell you exactly what Palestinians should think -

"Gee, Mohammed, I guess we reap what we sow..."


Remember this - Israel did not ALLOW the plo to set up in Gaza and the WEst bank just so they can attack us with rifles (some Israeli issued) and suicide murderers.

Israel allowed the Plo to set up shop because the plo promised peace. 550 dead Israelis (mostly civilains) later, some arabs are surprised that we hate them.

We extended our hand in peace (in 1993, 2000), and they chopped it off both times at the wrist.

So, now they will reap what they sow. BTW, if you think what some Jews wrote in your article is reprehensible, read any Arab periodical, and you will see nothing but murderous Nazi propaganda - Anti- semetic, Anti - Israel ravings that expose thier planned genocide in the coming years.

NewsGuy
06-19-2002, 02:59 PM
As usual the Arab author of the article begins his entire premise with lies aimed at a very low-level gullible reader.

For example, the article opens with accusations that Yeshivah students are writing letters to IDF soldiers asking them to kill Arabs and then brings completely fabricated quotations, as if the Israeli students made sure to pass a copy by the Arab author for prior approval.

Then, the Arab author continues to say that the very same high-school students who were bombed yesterday in Jerusalem are those who wrote those fabricated letters, thus blaming the Israeli victims for their murders.

To make further third-rate Arab propaganda points, the author then proceeds to point at Ovadia Yosef as an example of Israeli extremism and equates Yosef with the Islamic Mullahs and Immams who incite for suicide bombings. The comparison, of course is completely false, because Ovadia Yosef was investigated by the Israeli police for hateful speech and denounced by every segment of Israeli society. By contrast, the Islamic Mullahs enjoy tremendous popularity and are supported in their incitement by the rest of Arab society.

Still, the Arab author keeps on asking, "What are Arabs to think...?"

Well, Arabs should think that mass murdering Israeli high-school students is despicable and they should think that their own families and towns will not be spared retribution for their murderous actions.

L@mplighterM
06-19-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by NewsGuy

Well, Arabs should think that mass murdering Israeli high-school students is despicable and they should think that their own families and towns will not be spared retribution for their murderous actions.

You could rename Earth and call it the Molting planet.

The average John and Jane Doe would be horrified if they took the time to read how Islam promotes hatred against Jews and Infidels. I think there’s an understanding between the Muftis and Government officials in Arab countries.

It’s really quite simple “let us incite the followers or we’ll kill you” and so the leaders let them do what they want unless the Islamic Fundamentalists want to seize power. When they start eying the throne they are eliminated and their houses are leveled. That seems to put them in their place for a while and the cycle continues.

I shudder to think what will happen when technology advances to the point when these madmen have nuclear weapons at their disposal. Even if peace is established in the ME one can be certain that it will only be for a few wink of an eye in terms of the first emergence of humanity.

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 04:13 PM
NewsGuy:


For example, the article opens with accusations that Yeshivah students are writing letters to IDF soldiers asking them to kill Arabs and then brings completely fabricated quotations, as if the Israeli students made sure to pass a copy by the Arab author for prior approval.
Odd, I don't see any reference in the story about Yeshivah students. The author seems to be quoting a May 7th article in the Israeli newspaper "Yedioth Ahronoth". I assume that the author has access to that article. I, for one, would enjoy reading it... but I don't have access to that newspaper. Does anyone living in Israel have access to that paper so that this author's claims can be verified?


Then, the Arab author continues to say that the very same high-school students who were bombed yesterday in Jerusalem are those who wrote those fabricated letters, thus blaming the Israeli victims for their murders.
Perhaps you're reading a different article, but I see no reference to high-school children at all in the one that I linked to. Also, the article could not be referencing a suicide attack yesterday, as it was published two days ago. Perhaps your words are entirely rhetorical...


To make further third-rate Arab propaganda points, the author then proceeds to point at Ovadia Yosef as an example of Israeli extremism and equates Yosef with the Islamic Mullahs and Immams who incite for suicide bombings. The comparison, of course is completely false, because Ovadia Yosef was investigated by the Israeli police for hateful speech and denounced by every segment of Israeli society. By contrast, the Islamic Mullahs enjoy tremendous popularity and are supported in their incitement by the rest of Arab society.
Yosef cannot have been denounced by every segment of Israeli society. Someone must be listening to his hate speech. Even so, the author makes no comparison between Yosef and any other person. He only quotes him. You are adding the comparison. Also, is Yosef still the spiritual leader of the Shas party? If so, it seems a rather high-level position for someone that has been so thoroughly denounced by Israeli society.

This author is simply quoting things that have taken place. You are adding these extra twists and interpretations to what was written. Where in this article is anything you claim he is saying actually being said? Methinks you're trying to steer people on this board away from reading the article for themselves...

The author makes a valid statement at the end of the article:

Should Palestinians think that Israel and its supporters truly mean to co-exist with them, or should they suspect that their aim is to conquer and destroy them?
And, from the actions I see Israel taking -- and many on this board supporting -- , it seems that their aim is to conquer and destroy the Palestinians.

NewsGuy, why would you make up such falsehoods about this article. Nothing you have said here is in the referenced article. Did you simple not read it? Or are you just trying to debunk it with your own distortions?

steve

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 04:39 PM
NewsGuy:

I found some corroboration of the IDF receipt of pro-violence letters from Israeli children. I'd still like to see an original translation, but here's what I found...

http://www.peacenow.org/nia/peace/v3i42.html

Here's the excerpt:


"Dear Soldier, Please Kill A Lot Of Arabs" Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools. One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way—a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you—kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab." Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system." The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate. (Yedioth Ahronoth, 5/7/02)

steve

elke
06-19-2002, 04:40 PM
Steven,

Here is a quote DIRECTLY from your link:

Harsh words trample Palestinians' hopes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Ahmed Bouzid
Originally published June 17, 2002

WAYNE, Pa. -- What should Palestinians think when they read, as reported by Israel's largest circulation newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, that Israeli schoolchildren, many of them religious and some of them teen-agers and only a few years away from joining military service, send letters to soldiers in which they write "Please kill a lot of Arabs"?
Or when they write, "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least 10 for me"? Or, "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them"?
The May 7 Yedioth article identified neither the soldiers nor the children.

Yedioth Ahoronoth newspaper, as far as I know, is only published in Hebrew. Have you asked yourself WHERE would the Palestinians read this article?

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 04:43 PM
Elke:

You don't think that Palestinians have heard of these things? Even I cannot read Hebrew, yet I see information of this thousands of miles away. I've got to imagine that an Arabic translation of this information is available in Palestinian news sources. At least one Palestinian has heard of it, I would think. And, it's quite probable that such information has spread.

steve

elke
06-19-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

You don't think that Palestinians have heard of these things? Even I cannot read Hebrew, yet I see information of this thousands of miles away. At least one Palestinian has heard of it, I would think. And, it's quite probable that such information has spread.

steve

It is highly likely that such information is... erroneous, shall we say? Information that the Temple was in Nablus is also all over, and there are even people who believe that the Earth is flat. That doesn't make it correct.

Doesn't it interest you that the newspaper they mentioned is published in Hebrew only? Why not Haaretz, or Jerusalem Post?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that your opinions are due to ignorance rather than evil intent.

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 05:12 PM
Elke:

Are you suggesting that this article was never published in "Yedioth Ahronoth"? That may be. I'll see if I can get an original copy of that edition from someone. Do you know that it was not published? Or are you just assuming so?

steve

cerulean
06-19-2002, 05:20 PM
Steve,

I have no knowledge of this article or not, but I think Elke makes a good point. I do know that other alleged stories and articles "quoted" in Arab articles have been faked.

As a special favor, here is the Yedioth Ahronoth web site:

http://www.ynet.co.il/home/1,7340,L-1326,00.html

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 05:21 PM
Cerulean:

lol I found the site, but I cannot read hebrew. :) It's all greek to me. I'm interested in proving or disproving that this article existed. If any of you come across any information about it, let me know please...

steve

elke
06-19-2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

Are you suggesting that this article was never published in "Yedioth Ahronoth"? That may be. I'll see if I can get an original copy of that edition from someone. Do you know that it was not published? Or are you just assuming so?

steve

All I am saying is that before making such accusations, the facts must be clear, and in full. The Palestinian supporters are well-known for the half-truths and outright falsehoods.

My Hebrew is inadequate to find the actual article and make sufficient sense out of it. The Shalom Achshav site you kindly provided does confirm that the article was published, BUT:

Quote: Dear Soldier, Please Kill A Lot Of Arabs" Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools. One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way—a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you—kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab." Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system." The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate. (Yedioth Ahronoth, 5/7/02)

The "bolded" part, of course, was omitted in its entirety from that article you quoted. This is the "big, bad IDF", remember.

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 05:47 PM
Elke:

The article that was quoted in the first message of this thread did not include the full text of the hebrew article. And it did not contain any accusations, either. It simply stated things that had happened and wondered how Palestinians might interpret them.

There were no accusations in the article. Nor does it call the IDF bad or wrong. It simple alludes to many facts and asks how Palestinians would see them. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Palestinians may well think that Israel is out to get them if they were to read that Israeli children had written such hateful things. That's all the article was quoting that information for, it seems to me.

steve

elke
06-19-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

The article that was quoted in the first message of this thread did not include the full text of the hebrew article. And it did not contain any accusations, either. It simply stated things that had happened and wondered how Palestinians might interpret them.

There were no accusations in the article. Nor does it call the IDF bad or wrong. It simple alludes to many facts and asks how Palestinians would see them. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Palestinians may well think that Israel is out to get them if they were to read that Israeli children had written such hateful things. That's all the article was quoting that information for, it seems to me.

steve

I beg to differ: there is no doubt that this was an "opinion" piece, both the writer's and an attempt at making others' opinions. It did make accusations. What do you think the purpose of that article was?

StephenNichols
06-19-2002, 06:11 PM
Elke:

Could you do me a favor and quote an accusation from the article? Perhaps I'm not able to read between the lines like you are. :confused: The author's opinion is clear, but there is no accusation made that I can see.

The purpose of the article seems to be to draw attention to how average Palestinians may view the news of Israeli actions and the actions of Israeli supporters. The author is also making the claim that Palestinians may view Israel as trying to destroy all Palestinians and conquer their land. At least, that's the meaning I get from it...

steve

elke
06-19-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

Could you do me a favor and quote an accusation from the article?

You just did it yourself:

"The author is also making the claim that Palestinians may view Israel as trying to destroy all Palestinians and conquer their land."

alexbmn
06-19-2002, 08:10 PM
Nickols how come you have no problems that ALL of Palestinian children are indoctrinated by ALL aspects of the Palestinian and Arab societies to hate ALL JeWs ,kill ALL JEWS murder ALL Jews?

Iori Yagami
06-19-2002, 11:19 PM
Everyone applaud Nicholls, he has finally revealed our zionist plot.
What a bunch of bullshyte. Thousands of letters were sent to the soldiers, out of those, merely a dozen included those racist and ugly comments. Yet guess what, Nicholls posts it here, as a what, a testimony to Israeli children`s education?
Once again he inflated the whole thing, and tried to troll a bit more. Why am I responding to that, I don`t know, I guess I`m stupid.

Vic
06-20-2002, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Iori Yagami
Why am I responding to that, I don`t know This is what the "ignore" function is for - unless you want to study a certain type of fellow human beings ;)

elke
06-20-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Vic
This is what the "ignore" function is for - unless you want to study a certain type of fellow human beings ;)

I am sorry, but I disagree. These types of accusations must be rebutted! We can't afford to leave these half-truths and outright lies out there, without challenging them.

NewsGuy
06-20-2002, 09:15 AM
I challenged Steve's original article as being factually inaccurate and he is right to bring corroboration. I still disagree with his points, but I applaud him for bringing direct quotes not only from an Arab author, but from an Israeli source, as well.

As for the substance of the point being made by Steve and evidently by Peacenow, I will say publicly that if, in fact, those letters from Israeli 7th-graders are accurate, then those children are wrong to write those letters.

The mission of the IDF was never to "kill Arabs." Rather, the IDF was ordered to fight a war against Islamic terrorism by damaging the Palestinian terror infrastructure. If those Israeli children thought differently, then they are simply mistaken.

But there is an important point to be made that a handful of ill-informed Israeli children seem to be all of a sudden at the center of an Arab PR and disinformation effort.

The more important views are those held by the Arab official government-directed mass media that orders the Arab population to mass murder Jews, and exterminate as many Jews as possible. This government-directed Arab terrorism incitement is then accompanied by recruitment, training, housing and financing of terrorist groups, who enjoy not only Arab governmental support, but the support of the vast majority of the Arab population.

All this in stark contrast to Israel which carefully avoids harming Arab civilians and prosecutes any Israeli citizens guilty of hate speech.

So, going back to the few children's letters which were alleged by a single Israeli reservist and then publicized by a radical minority group known as "Peace Now," which would be more accuratetly termed "Surrender to Arab terrorism and massacres Now," I am skeptical of these allegations. And even so, I am not overly impressed with what an ill-informed 7th-grader supposedly says. I would, however, be concerned if school children were indoctrinated with hatefulness and racism on an official basis, as is the case in Arab society.

And so, the question arises, "What are Israeli 7th graders to think when Palestinians mass murder dozens of students on buses on their way to school?" Should they prepare chocolates and flowers for the Palestinians, or should they wish the IDF soldiers success in their war against Arab and Islamic terrorism?"

StephenNichols
06-20-2002, 09:31 AM
NewsGuy:

You are right in condemning the indoctrination of hate that Palestinian children receive. I do not agree with teaching children to hate either. It's despicable.

I don't think the author was trying to lay blame for anything. The letters received by the IDF were only one part of the "evidence" that the he was quoting. The author simply states that a Palestinian may come to the conclusion that Israel is out to destroy them and take their land. Do you agree that it is possible for Palestinians to come to this conclusion, even if it is incorrect?

This is why I posted the article. I'm trying to point out that the Palestinians have the same fears that the Israeli's have. Each side believes that the other side wants to destroy them and take their land. You know that Israel is acting in self-defense, so you call announced Palestinian fears lies and propoganda. Palestinians know that they are acting in self-defense, so they call announced Israeli fears lies and propoganda. The individuals on each side are suffering the same fears. We cannot lose sight of this, because it is the secret to understanding and can serve as a foundation for peace. Both sides are simply afraid of one another, yet they do not realize that this is so. Each side interprets the other's fears as unwarranted hostility. This is how the violence continues...

steve

StephenNichols
06-20-2002, 09:38 AM
Iori Yagami:


Everyone applaud Nicholls, he has finally revealed our zionist plot.

What a bunch of bullshyte. Thousands of letters were sent to the soldiers, out of those, merely a dozen included those racist and ugly comments. Yet guess what, Nicholls posts it here, as a what, a testimony to Israeli children`s education?

Once again he inflated the whole thing, and tried to troll a bit more. Why am I responding to that, I don`t know, I guess I`m stupid.
Iori, I have never claimed that there is any Zionist plot. I know that there is no such thing. Israel is acting out of fear. So are the Palestinians. Both sides are acting out of fear. Both sides are concinved that their opponents are out to destroy them and take their lands. This is why I quoted the article. There is no Zionist conspiracy. There is no Palestinian conspiracy. There are only two peoples that are afraid of one another, not realizing that the other side is just as afraid as they are. This is why the violence continues.

The author of the referenced article simply quoted facts that have occured and suggested that Palestinians may see such information as proof that Israel is out to get them. We all know this is not true, but they don't. That's the point that's being made here...

steve

Mediocrates
06-20-2002, 09:44 AM
Middle Eastern News Online, Inc needs to be stopped!

Whatever gibberish the Palistanians teach their own is one thing. But this 'official' news organization

http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/home.html

Parrots out the worst kind screaming garbage under the guise of fairness. I actually found the link to it at this public library

http://www.smpl.org/library/internet/crisis.htm

and this is the letter I wrote to the city librarian:

wallard@pen.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
Winona Allard
City Librarian, Santa Monica

Dear Ms. Allard;

On this page of references:

http://www.smpl.org/library/internet/crisis.htm

Is a link to Middle Eastern News Online, Inc.

Which includes such statements like (paraphrase) "America was attacked on 911 because of its oppression of Arab states and Arab peoples". And routinely advocates a violent, anti Semitic, anti Zionist, anti American rhetoric including this one on 9-11:

"The question to the American people is whether their security and safety should be placed ahead of the Zionist dreams of stealing more Palestinian land and humiliating millions of Arabs."

Well color me zealot but that sounds like a threat. I'm all for a marketplace of ideas but I want to draw to your attention the kind of hate speech you've purported to be useful in your attempt to "better understand the crisis we are currently enduring, ".

I'd add also that if you want to "better understand the crisis we are currently enduring, " that you make some attempt to add actual balance and include news sources that are not the official mouthpieces of Arab governments. And even a casual reader of Ha'aretz understands that on the political spectrum that newspaper is significantly leftward leaning and in or near the peace camp. Yet there are other newspapers and websites that cover the entire spectrum of opinion and policy, such as the Jerusalem Post and Arutz Sheva. I ask you to include those as well and let the readers make up their own minds in the spirit of being a public institution.

Sincerely...

I found that this news organization is based right here in Durham, NC

Headquarters
Middle East News Service, Inc.
P.O. Box 61422
Durham, North Carolina 27715
(919) 384-7274 Voice

email: NewsDesk@MiddleEastWire.com


I haven't decided what to do - it will depend on how much local support I can get.

StephenNichols
06-20-2002, 09:46 AM
Elke:


You just did it yourself:

"The author is also making the claim that Palestinians may view Israel as trying to destroy all Palestinians and conquer their land."
How is that an accusation? I don't see it that way at all. Can't you even see things from a Palestinian's viewpoint for a moment? Isn't it possible that what the Palestinians see happening could lead them to believe that Israel is out to get them? Isn't that possible? You and I both know that Israel is acting in self-defense, but the Palestinians don't. They truly think that Israel is out to get them. They are afraid, so they are fighting back. We know that what they think about Israel is not in line with Israel's true intentions. And, truthfully, the same thoughts that you have about Palestinains is equally out of line with their views. Both sides are acting out of fear. Can't you see that?

steve

elke
06-20-2002, 05:30 PM
I can see things from a Martian viewpoint, it doesn't mean that I agree with them.

As far as whether or not this is an "accusation" - I guess, we will need to, yet again, turn to the Dictionary:

An accusation, according to Merriam Webster is:
1 : the act of accusing : the state or fact of being accused
2 : a charge of wrongdoing - the one relevant here

Here we have pearls of wisdom, such as the name of the article:
"Harsh words trample Palestinians' hopes",

or polemics:
What should Palestinians think when they read that the spiritual leader of the Shas party in Israel's coalition government, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, publicly uses hate speech?

or unsubstantiated claim, with no backup of either where the Palestinians may read such trash, or where or when it was actually stated. Nor, might I add, that Shas is a far-right religious party, which represents a far smaller percentage of the predominantly secular Israeli population than Hamas etal of the Palestinians:

An example:

"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and banish them from this world. ... It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," Rabbi Yosef said.

Is this an adequate explanation, or do I have to chew it more and spit it out in separate syllables?

StephenNichols
06-20-2002, 06:19 PM
Elke:

I sit here wondering why it is you are so keen on arguing this point.

There was no accusation of wrong doing. The author simply stated factual happenings and asks how Palestinians might view them. It does not matter if the author describes how a Palestinian may come to view these happenings. The question is just as valid either way.

What charge of wrongdoing is there in the title of the article? "Harsh words trample Palestinian's hopes" Is it not possible that this is a statement of truth? Could not these things, if seen by a Palestinian, lead them to have less hope?

That title could be seen as either a good or bad thing, depending on who you are. Any wrongdoing you see charged here is your own interpretation. The author makes no charge that I can see.


or unsubstantiated claim, with no backup of either where the Palestinians may read such trash, or where or when it was actually stated. Nor, might I add, that Shas is a far-right religious party...
It seems that you don't believe that Yosef said these things. Don't be so quick to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. Let me give you some links to chew on:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1270000/1270038.stm
http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/witofyosef.htm
http://www.adc.org/press/2001/10april2001.htm
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/ovdyos.htm
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:69QiJgRbpbIC:www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/04/22/LatestNews/LatestNews.25003.html+%22ovadia+yosef%22+merciful+ jpost&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Each of these links -- there were many more of them -- (with the last one being a story from The Jerusalem Post) talks of Yosef saying these things. You cannot deny that they were said.

Can we agree that it is possible that Palestinians have come to know a significant portion of the information in the article?

I'm going to shout for a moment, as you seem to be hard of hearing... JUST BECAUSE PALESTINIANS BELIEVE ISRAEL WANTS TO KILL THEM AND STEAL THEIR LANDS DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!

I know it's not true. You know it's not true. But the Palestinians don't know this. They actually believe that Israel wants to kill them and take their land from them. The author simply states that these factual happenings may reinforce this belief.

Why are you so eager to dismiss the fact that Palestinians do have these views? Do you think they should not have these views? Do you believe that the Palestinians are just insane, without reason for their views of what is happening? Why is this so hard for you to accept?

The Palestinians are afraid of Israel, this is why they feel they need to defend themselves. We all think that their method of defense is horrible. But that does not change the fact that it is their fear that fuels their desire to fight back. As a people, they are not evil. They are not crazy. They are afraid.

The Israeli and Palestinain people are both afraid. This is why they fight. This is why they won't let their guard down. This is why the violence has not stopped.

Honestly, why is it so hard for you to see true reasons for Palestinian actions? Or, if you are convinced that the Palestinians are fighting back for a reason other than fear, please explain it to me...

steve

elke
06-20-2002, 06:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke:

I sit here wondering why it is you are so keen on arguing this point.

Because this is typical Arab propaganda. The modus operandi is this: choose words and phrases with as much emotional content as possible, never mind the accuracy. This is not the matter of "freedom of speech", but rather of libel and slander.

There was no accusation of wrong doing. The author [b]simply stated factual happenings and asks how Palestinians might view them. It does not matter if the author describes how a Palestinian may come to view these happenings. The question is just as valid either way.

Define accusation in such a way that this article would NOT be construed as such. I don't know how to do that: I learned my English from proliferate reading.

What charge of wrongdoing is there in the title of the article? "Harsh words trample Palestinian's hopes" Is it not possible that this is a statement of truth? Could not these things, if seen by a Palestinian, lead them to have less hope?

Accusation does not preclude "truth". You are mixing apples and oranges again.

That title could be seen as either a good or bad thing, depending on who you are. Any wrongdoing you see charged here is your own interpretation. The author makes no charge that I can see.

Get glasses


It seems that you don't believe that Yosef said these things. Don't be so quick to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. Let me give you some links to chew on:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1270000/1270038.stm
http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/witofyosef.htm
http://www.adc.org/press/2001/10april2001.htm
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/ovdyos.htm
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:69QiJgRbpbIC:www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/04/22/LatestNews/LatestNews.25003.html+%22ovadia+yosef%22+merciful+ jpost&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Each of these links -- there were many more of them -- (with the last one being a story from The Jerusalem Post) talks of Yosef saying these things. You cannot deny that they were said.

I am not denying that he said these things. He is not on the list of my favorite people. What I am saying is that this is taken completely out of context, and used as propaganda.

BTW, check out the sources on the sites you provided. The only authoritative source is the Jerusalem Post. Here are some of the headlines from the http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/witofyosef.htm:

new: "Judaism distinguished themselves only for force and fraud"
new: Israel Kills Palestinian Boys, Steals Organs for Transplants

etc, etc.

Can we agree that it is possible that Palestinians have come to know a significant portion of the information in the article?

I have no doubt of it, and more. It's their sources I am questioning.

I'm going to shout for a moment, as you seem to be hard of hearing... JUST BECAUSE PALESTINIANS BELIEVE ISRAEL WANTS TO KILL THEM AND STEAL THEIR LANDS DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!
I am not hard of hearing, and I did hear you. So?

Why are you so eager to dismiss the fact that Palestinians do have these views? Do you think they should not have these views? Do you believe that the Palestinians are just insane, without reason for their views of what is happening? Why is this so hard for you to accept?

OK, here we go: I know that the Palestinians have these views. No, I don't think that they should have them. I don't believe that they are insane, but I do believe that their reasons for believing such trash are faulty. It has to do with that propaganda that you are justifying as "factual statements" with "no accusations".

The Palestinians are afraid of Israel, this is why they feel they need to defend themselves. We all think that their method of defense is horrible. But that does not change the fact that it is their fear that fuels their desire to fight back. As a people, they are not evil. They are not crazy. They are afraid.

Quite honestly, given the current circumstances, I don't think that it matters WHY they do what they do. The idea is to stop it. Eventually, we can make attempts to become friends with them, help them grow and prosper, and have a ball at it.

Honestly, why is it so hard for you to see true reasons for Palestinian actions? Or, if you are convinced that the Palestinians are fighting back for a reason other than fear, please explain it to me...

I am no expert on true reasons for the Palestinian actions. Moreover, even if you are right and it is fear, the behavior is what's got to go regardless.

L@mplighterM
06-20-2002, 07:00 PM
I don?t think that 7th graders need to be taught to hate in Israel I?m certain that they are quite capable of making that emotion surface all by itself. At this point in history I think every parent has an obligation to teach their children that Islamic Fundamentalism is evil. Further every child has the right to know that the Koran has passages that call for the extermination of Jews and Infidels.

Every child has the right to know that Islamic Extremism/Fundamentalism is responsible for removing the Twin Towers from the NY landscape. Every child should also be informed that the Pentagon was partly destroyed by these bastards. Every child has the right to know that they intended to crash a jet into the White House. The list goes on.

New Nazis is an excellent description of their movement. I?ll say it again Islamic Extremists/Fundamentalist terrorists are all one group whatever the name.

If hate becomes a byproduct of that information so be it.

StephenNichols
06-20-2002, 07:23 PM
Elke:


I don't believe that they are insane, but I do believe that their reasons for believing such trash are faulty.
Elke, why do you think the Palestinians believe "such trash"?

It has to do with that propaganda that you are justifying as "factual statements" with "no accusations".
Each one of the author's statements can be corroborated through reputable news sources. You keep claiming that the statements are not true, but you have yet to be specific. Which one of them is not true?

It is your interpretation of these statements that makes them accusatory. I don't need glasses to see otherwise. I understand that you see nothing but accusations and propaganda in this article, but your interpretation is not the only one that a person could reach. Can we agree that there is more than one way to correctly interpret the author's message? Or is yours the only right interpretation?


BTW, check out the sources on the sites you provided. The only authoritative source is the Jerusalem Post.
I'd put the BBC as authoritative too... Even still, it doesn't matter what sites mirror the information, the fact is that hateful speech was said by a high-level Rabbi in Israel. The fact is that Palestinians may interpret such hateful speech as the existance of general Israeli anti-Arab sentiment. The fact is that such perceived anti-Arab sentiment could help to bolster Palestinian fear and mistrust of Israel. The fact is that such fear and mistrust is what supports the idea of suicide bombings for self-defense.


Quite honestly, given the current circumstances, I don't think that it matters WHY they do what they do. The idea is to stop it.

Moreover, even if you are right and it is fear, the behavior is what's got to go regardless.
How can it not matter why they do what they do? Isn't it always more effective to take into account the "why" of a problem when formulating a solution?

Violence has not stopped it yet. Violence won't stop it in the future. Israel would be better served by working to change the causes for Palestinian fear rather than fighting the symptoms of it.

steve

TheyAre
06-21-2002, 12:01 AM
WAYNE, Pa. -- What should Palestinians think when they read, as reported by Israel's largest circulation newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, that Israeli schoolchildren, many of them religious and some of them teen-agers and only a few years away from joining military service, send letters to soldiers in which they write "Please kill a lot of Arabs"?

They should be outraged. Wait, wait, they already tell their children that the best thing they could ever do with their lives, the thing that would make mommy and daddy love them most of all, was if they killed some Jews when they grew up, or at least try to. Oops, I don't really think they deserve to be outraged.


Or when they write, "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least 10 for me"? Or, "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them"?

Read my reply up above. When Palestinians express these views, save the targets are Israelis and Jews, not their own people, its because they're "opressed" and "occupied." Whenever Israelis, 5/6 of them JEWS, express their frustration at being surrounded and under siege by people who hate them with a rage Hitler would respect, they're "racist" and "Naziistic."


What should Palestinians think when they read that the spiritual leader of the Shas party in Israel's coalition government, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, publicly uses hate speech? An example:

"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and banish them from this world. ... It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," Rabbi Yosef said.

Gee, I'm glad the dangerous statements of this religious fanatic are brought to light. I'm sure if he was Muslim and was speaking about Jews, he'd be hailed as a "freedom fighter" and one who "speaks out against the Jewish infidels."


What should Palestinians think when New York Times reporter Chris Hedges writes in Harper's magazine that he has watched Israeli soldiers day after day taunt Palestinian children and then "shoot them for sport," and yet no one else in the media is interested enough to investigate, let alone express outrage and indignation over the criminal practice?

I assure Mr. Hedges that if this really happened even once, the EU would probably declare war on Israel along with the Arab states. No one is interested in investigating why Palestinians danced in Ramallah hours after Sept. 11th, or why Palestinians celebrate when Jewish babies and toddlers are killed by Palestinians. I assure Mr. Hedges that if an IDF soldier comes within ten feet of a Palestinian child when he is merely walking the down street, a picture of it will be plastered all over the front pages of the world about how he threatened the boy and was about to shoot him before the youth ran away (probably after throwing some rocks), when the IDF soldier did nothing wrong. The world can stick its outrage and indignation up its ass, maybe we should make these journalists watch videos of the SS dumping the emaciated bodies of Jews into mass graves or piling them up like firewood for a few days, but then they'd probably write dozens of articles saying how they were "kidnapped by Jews and Right-Wingers and forced to watch atrocities that the IDF is now copying in the West Bank."

What should Palestinians think when House Majority Leader Dick Armey advocates on national television the transfer of Palestinian populations from the West Bank and Gaza? "I'm content to have Israel grab the entire West Bank," he said.

Someone has to make Palestinians understand that terror will never accomplish their objective, the destruction of Israel. No Palestinian state means Israel will never be destroyed by the Muslims.


What should Palestinians think when they read that one of America's most respected lawyers and a self-proclaimed defender of civil rights and human rights, Harvard professor Alan Dershowitz, proposed that in response to a terrorist attack on Israel, residents of an Arab village "would be given 24 hours to leave, and then troops will come in and bulldoze all of the buildings"?

This is idiotic and stupid, Dershowitz is regarded as a fool and being slightly more to the left than Stalin in the US. But now the Palestinians are seeing real consequences for their actions, the retaking of land by the IDF in response to terror attacks.


What should Palestinians think when they read that Nathan Lewin, a former president of the International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists and current vice president of the Orthodox Union and a candidate for a federal judgeship, wrote: "If executing some suicide-bomber families saves the lives of even an equal number of potential civilian victims, the exchange is, I believe, ethically permissible"?

This is also idiotic and stupid. Yet Steve and the author of this article post this as being the opinion of all Jews and Israelis, which is pure trolling and anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, and pro-Palestinian propaganda.


What should Palestinians think when they hear tens of thousands of Jewish-Americans loudly boo and hiss Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, a long-time supporter of Israel, for simply suggesting that innocent Palestinians hurt in the current conflict also deserve some sympathy?

It's called Freedom of Expression, Speech and Public Gathering, something the Palestinians don't have, unless its for the purpose of showing the world just how bad those Jews are, and how they all need to be wiped out.


What should Palestinians think when they read that America's top law enforcement official, Attorney General John Ashcroft, believes that while Christianity "is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you, Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him"?

Sounds like a pretty accurate description of the version of Islam many clerics espouse today, and the vast majority of Muslims accept.


What should Palestinians think when they hear that Israel's most "dovish" prime minister, Ehud Barak, believes that the Palestinians are the product of a culture "in which to tell a lie ... creates no dissonance. They don't suffer from the problem of telling lies that exists in Judeo-Christian culture. Truth is seen as an irrelevant category. There is only that which serves your purpose and that which doesn't"?

This is what Yasser Arafat has been doing ever since 1964 and earlier, shaping the "truth" for his own purposes. The Israel-Arab conflict is the only time in the history of mankind that I know of where the losers write what goes into the history books and what many poor ignorant people believe. Here's a hint, Steve: The losers are the Arabs.


What should Palestinians think when they read that the platform of the political party in power in Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Likud, still retains language that asserts that there should be "no Palestinian state west of the Jordan river"?

They should be mad, but there would be no need for statements like this, and they would not exist, if Muslims did not endorse the destruction of Israel and the murder of the 16 million Jews in the world. If it weren't for the Holocaust there would be 200 million Jews alive today, and the Arabs would know to shut up or be wiped out. They should know that today, since its true even though there are only 16,000,000 where there should be 200,000,000.


And what should Palestinians think when they read that President Bush openly declares that "Ariel Sharon is a man of peace" when the Israeli leader is so unyielding? Mr. Sharon is the same man responsible for what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have called the "war crimes of Jenin" and the very man found by an Israeli court indirectly responsible for the massacre of more than 800 Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in 1982.

That boils down to indirectly responsible. It was a case of let the Christian terrorists fight (and massacre) the Islamic terrorists, or go into the middle of it and take fire from all sides trying to protect the Islamic terrorists from the Christian ones. Both Amnesty International and the Human Rights Watch have retracted both those statements, and both have acknowledged that 56 Palestinians died in Jenin, 38 of them combatants, and that there was no massacre, nor were war crimes committed. Ariel Sharon has been unyielding because the Palestinians remain unyielding on one key issue: the continued existence of the state of Israel. They don't acknowledge Israel, so Israel sure as hell ain't gonna acknowledge Palestine. Get over it.


Should Palestinians think that Israel and its supporters truly mean to co-exist with them, or should they suspect that their aim is to conquer and destroy them?

Israelis don't suspect that the Palestinian and Arab aim is to conquer and destroy them; Israelis know that is the Arab and Palestinian aim. Given a real chance, Israel has said and shown many times that it will live in peace with its neighbors. Its the Arabs who provoke with kidnappings, hijackings, assassinations, full-scale wars, and terrorism, yet its Israel who gets blamed. Durn those Jews for not getting into the gas chambers faster!

The coverage of the Israel-Arab conflict in the U.S. Media is more than fair to Palestinians, I'd say about 70-30 in favor. People like Ahmed Bouzid and the Palestine Media Watch want it to be 100-0 in favor of Palestinians.

GG (Good Game) No Re (No rematch) kekekekekekekeke (silly silly silly silly you get the idea) Monkey Boy (Monkey Boy).

elke
06-21-2002, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by StephenNichols
Elke, why do you think the Palestinians believe "such trash"?

They believe it because they don't have any counterbalance to this trash. They believe it because they are brainwashed. They believe it because as Hitler knew, if you repeat a big enough lie enough times, people will accept it as truth.

They also believe it because it's convenient for the Arab world in general and Arafat & Co. in particular, to deflect the attention from themselves. That's why they are not willing to loosen control of the Palestinian media.

Each one of the author's statements can be corroborated through reputable news sources. You keep claiming that the statements are not true, but you have yet to be specific. Which one of them is not true?

Find them (the reputable sources).

It is your interpretation of these statements that makes them accusatory. I don't need glasses to see otherwise. I understand that you see nothing but accusations and propaganda in this article, but your interpretation is not the only one that a person could reach. Can we agree that there is more than one way to correctly interpret the author's message? Or is yours the only right interpretation?

No, we cannot agree that there is more than one way to interpret the author's message.

I'd put the BBC as authoritative too... Even still, it doesn't matter what sites mirror the information, the fact is that hateful speech was said by a high-level Rabbi in Israel. The fact is that Palestinians may interpret such hateful speech as the existance of general Israeli anti-Arab sentiment. The fact is that such perceived anti-Arab sentiment could help to bolster Palestinian fear and mistrust of Israel. The fact is that such fear and mistrust is what supports the idea of suicide bombings for self-defense.

I beg to differ. It makes a big time difference what sites "mirror the information". If it was only Hamas and Islamic Jihad that made hateful speeches and called for destruction of Israel, - and their general support was around the same percentage as Rabbi Ovadiah has, PLO would be Israel's best friend. They would work together to root out Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Grasping at straws, they are grasping at straws to try to justify their hatred and uncivilized behavior. And you are buying it!

How can it not matter why they do what they do? Isn't it always more effective to take into account the "why" of a problem when formulating a solution?

Usually, but not always. Sometimes you can't afford to worry about the "why's", because you are just trying to survive. Such is the situation today. I can "why" you to death, more than you'll ever know! It's my nature to try to get to the bottom of things; but there is NO TIME here.

user954651
08-04-2006, 10:40 AM
Heya.

"We know that what they think about Israel is not in line with Israel's true intentions. And, truthfully, the same thoughts that you have about Palestinains is equally out of line with their views. Both sides are acting out of fear."

You are correct re Palestinians. They think they are an oppressed people who have to defend themselves... but so did the Nazi's. [I suggest you watch the full movie "Obsession". {Preview (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614)}]. The Arabs believe they are oppressed, that their land was stolen. They even think that they are an aincient people called the "Palestinians". This is all nonsense, but it is what happens when a population is swamped with propaganda and hate.

Israel is not the opposite side of the same coin, Israel is simply protecting it's citizens from the result.

Being a free society, there are people with all opinions. This post is trying to chastise the whole of Israel based on the views of a small sect... while more vile hatred is mainstream in the Arab world.

What you currently are trying to do is make everyone in this conflict an equael, to suggest that Israel is the same as the Arabs. That the Arabs that hate are just an insignificant minority. This is not historically accurate.

Re: accusations
Putting a question mark after something does not make it any less of an accusation. The question was loaded, I have seen copies of the independant which say: "The United States of Israel?" - That is libel suggesting that Israel controls America (straight out of the Protocols). The question mark does not make it innocent, the question mark changes nothing.