Why marry Jewish? Part 2

[Toga]

So, Minus, do you understand now why the Jewishness is based on the maternal lineage?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060113/ap_on_sc/jewish_descent

Our sages are incredible. It is astounding how they are capable decipher the Torah code.

Jewishness is not based on genes, blood, race, color or any other physical characteristics but the science fully supports the maternal lineage.

[physics]

I've read about a few genetic studies done on some Ashkenazis. It indicates that the maternal genes were European(Goy) and paternal genes were middle Eastern(Ancient Hebrews I guess.) So this implies that first Jewish males settled in Europe and intermarried with local women.

Although the study is true, it cannot describe the general Ashkenazi population.

However, you must consider that Jewish traditions and identity were still passed for generations, although the mothers were European Shiksas.

[physics]

There are many people born to Shiksas and Jewish fathers who are very passionate about their partly Jewish heritage and it'd be an insult to turn these people away from the Jewish community.

On the other hand, there are also such people who lean away from their partly Jewish heritage...these are the people that should be criticized instead.

[Toga]

I've read about a few genetic studies done on some Ashkenazis. It indicates that the maternal genes were European(Goy) and paternal genes were middle Eastern(Ancient Hebrews I guess.) So this implies that first Jewish males settled in Europe and intermarried with local women.

Although the study is true, it cannot describe the general Ashkenazi population.

However, you must consider that Jewish traditions and identity were still passed for generations, although the mothers were European Shiksas.

Please do not listen to garbage. Those who intermarry are trying to find some justification for breaking the chain. The 4 women who most of us come from were all Jewish.

[Toga]

There are many people born to Shiksas and Jewish fathers who are very passionate about their partly Jewish heritage and it'd be an insult to turn these people away from the Jewish community.

On the other hand, there are also such people who lean away from their partly Jewish heritage...these are the people that should be criticized instead.

There was also a Indian tribe from Peru that recently moved to Israel. All members of that tribe converted to Judaism. There are also Jews who at one time were ethnic WASPS, Russians, Chinese or Arabs. That does not mean anything. Jewishness is based on the maternal lineage. Period. Even if a Jew is a bad Jew and his/hers mother is Jewish he/she is as Jewish as the Chief Rabbi of Israel.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

Excellent site:

http://www.jewfaq.org/

[redcake]

Is this a parody thread, of the last thread?

[Toga]

Is this a parody thread, of the last thread?

We are trying to reignite it. It was a good thread.

http://www.whymarryjewish.com/
http://www.targum.com/excerpts/marryjewish.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm
http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/93_why_is_it_that_jews_.htm
http://search.askmoses.com/search?q=intermarriage&restrict=askmoses&ie=&site=AskMoses&output=xml_no_dtd&client=AskMoses&lr=&proxystylesheet=AskMoses&oe=&filter=p

[redcake]

I was just hoping you were being sarcastic.

I want you to stop, and think, what type of undertones a claim such as YOU ALL CAME FROM 4 *EUROPEAN* WOMEN has. No, really. How does this contradict the history we embrace from the Torah? Now, how does it conflict with our historical understanding of how Jews got to Europe. Why are these studies so fixated on treating Jews as Eurocentric ? Remember, with any study, you can find a study which says the exact opposite.

It sounds like the question, for some of you, comes back to "who is a Jew", again, and again. I think we've concluded that the answer to that can be a personal one, as would a question like "Why should I marry Jewish". If you care enough to marry a Jew, then you subscribe the the common belief that a Jew is passed down maternally. It's like asking "Why do you keep Kosher?". Can you find one defined way to certify if something has been deemed kosher? Not without debate. At some point you have to accept there that Jews come from many traditions, and we all wear our stripes differently.

[Labyu]

Toga,
You don't seem to have even read anything beyond your diluted "pop-version" of this data,The Hammer study in depth shows MtDNA population model that 3 out of 4 of these female ancestors are Caucasian not Semitic(as Behar erroneously/wishfully asserts) and that only Y-DNA(male) mutations shows the only significant markers that could be linked to Near Eastern Jewish populations during the biblical epic :D

I admire many of our sages as well but when they disagree with the Torah due to limited access to information and social pressures stemming from subjegation by gentile oppressors I have to call them on their BS and look to the Tanakh for answers.

If we use the Tanakh as our Ultimate Authority the the tradition needs to be updated in several key areas.

The Sages are in no way equal or superior to the Patriarchs or Prophets by their own admission so why would I blindy submit to their authority when it flys in the face of reason,scholarship and even the will of Hashem?

This thread is about Marriage customs and a why "Marrying Jewish" is only allowed to be addressed by the Orthodox who consider it as a means of producing offsping that are acceptable to their limited(un-biblical) edicts.

Unintentionally the Orthodox promote Jewish women marrying "the uncircumcised" by ignoring Tanakh which considered our women important enough to kill for much less keep from marrying men who will turn their offspring into "Who Knows What".While biblically Jewish offspring of male Jews and female gentiles are "cast off" like so much rubbish when in the biblical era they could be chiefs of tribes or even Kings and Queens of Israel and Judah!!!


Men throughout history generally make the descisions concerning religious/tribal affiliation and place of residence in both Gentile and Jewish culture but we leave it to our women to determine Jewishness?The reason there are decreasing populations among Reform and Conservative Jewish populations is because there are historically more Jewish Females born than Jewish Males(possibly due to dietary alkalinity??) and these women all complain about a shortage of Jewish Males much less males "suitable" for marriage.

This was one of the biggest road blocks to repopulating after the Shoah and it's a complete 360 from what Hashem commanded us in the Torah!!

Don't even try to divide this issue into the argument that Male anscestry determines Tribal Rights and Female ancestry determine religious affiliation because it's not true.There were thousands of gentile wives producing the greatest generation of Jews that ever lived!!They were pagans until the moment they married Jewish men and even afterwards would sometimes hold on to their pagan ways and be reprimanded or dispensed with for not being religiously faithful.:eek:


Hammer who's research you are so ignorantly quoting also says that Palestinians are the closest genetic relatives to Jews and some of the even have the Cohen Modal Haplotype!!!

mtDNA Polymorphisms in Two Communities of Jews'
American Journal of Human Genetics

Similar results from mitochondrial studies. In this case they examined 39 subjects, roughly half Sephardic and half Ashkenazic. Of the four types of mtDNA that occurred more than once in the sample,3 were similar to types previously found in non-Jewish Caucasian populations.There was insufficient data to determine whether this was due to similar origins for these groups, or from intermarriage during the diaspora. The mtDNA genetic diversity was higher than one would expect given the size of Israel, but much lower than one would obtain from a random group of East Asians or Africans. It was roughly comparable to that shown by Papuans, who inhabit an area much larger than Israel. The conclusion was that either the early Jews had an abnormally high mtDNA diversity (doubtful) or Ashkenazic Jews have acquired these maternal lineages since their emergence as a distinct group (quite likely).

Of the 4 maternal lineages of world Jewery 3 of them are from caucasian populations and these 3 are most commonly found among Ashkenzic Jews with mtDNA from the near east being reintroduced at later dates during the Diasopora!!

Male Y-DNA Haplotypes

R1a: The R1a lineage is believed to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas.

R1b: Haplogroup R1b is the most common haplogroup in European populations. This lineage is also the haplogroup containing the Atlantic modal haplotype.

I: The I, I1, and I1a lineages are nearly completely restricted to northwestern Europe. These would most likely have been common within Viking populations.

N: This haplogroup is distributed throughout Northern Eurasia. It is the most common Y-chromosome type in Uralic speakers (Finns and Hungarians).

E3a: This haplogroup is an African lineage. It is currently hypothesized that this haplogroup dispersed south from northern Africa within the past 3000 years, by the Bantu agricultural expansion.

E3b: This haplogroup is believed to have evolved in the Middle East. It expanded into the Mediterranean during the Pleistocene Neolithic expansion. It is currently distributed around the Mediterranean, southern Europe, and in north and east Africa.

J: Haplogroup J is found at highest frequencies in Middle Eastern and north African populations where it most likely evolved. This marker has been carried by Middle Eastern traders into Europe, central Asia, India, and Pakistan. The Cohen modal lineage is found in Haplogroup J*.

J2: The J2 lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. As with other populations with Mediterranean ancestry this lineage is found within Jewish populations.

Q: The Q lineage is the lineage that links Asia and the Americas. This lineage is found in North and Central Asian populations as well as native Americans.

Q3: This haplogroup is the only lineage strictly associated with Native American populations. This haplogroup is defined by the presence of the M3 mutation (also known as SY103). This mutation occurred on the Q lineage 8-12 thousand years ago as the migration into the Americas was underway.

G: This haplogroup may have originated in India or Pakistan, and has dispersed into central Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The G2 branch of this lineage (containing the P15 mutation) is found most often in the Europe and the Middle East.

G2: This lineage may have originated in India or Pakistan, and has dispersed into central Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. The G2 branch of this lineage (containing the P15 mutation) is found most often in the Europe and the Middle East.

C1: The C1 lineage is entirely restricted to Japan where it occurs at low frequency.

C3: This lineage is believed to have originated in southeast or central Asia. This lineage then spread into northern Asia, and then into the Americas.

O1: This haplogroup is found at very high frequency in the aboriginal Taiwanese (possibly due to genetic drift).

O2: Haplogroup O2 has two primary lines, the 465 line and the M95 line. Both lines are found in Asia.

H: This haplogroup is nearly completely restricted to India, Sri Lanka, and Pakistan.

L: This haplogroup is found primarily in India and Sri Lanka, and has also spread into several Middle Eastern populations (Turks, Saudis, and Pakistanis).

P: The undifferentiated P lineage is a very rare haplogroup in populations at this time. Although it was the ancestral line to haplogroups Q and R it is only found at low frequency in India, Pakistan, and central Asia with a most likely point of origin in either central Asia or the Altai region of Siberia.

K: The K lineage is an old lineage presently found only at low frequencies in Africa, Asia, and in the South Pacific. One descendant line of this lineage is restricted to aboriginal Australians, while another is found at low frequency in southern Europe, Northern Africa, and the Middle East. .

K2: The K2 lineage is an old lineage presently found only at low frequencies in Africa, Asia, and in the Middle East. This specific line is found at low frequency in southern Europe, Northern Africa, and the Middle East.


As you can see the Jewish mtDNA evidence of maternal descent hinges on DNA contributed long after the pre-exilic period.ie the reintroduction of Jewish females rather than a line of continuous descent!!!A break in female anscestry according to the Orthodox means that you are not a Jew!!

While male ancestry models take the majority of Jewish males on earth right back to Canaan during the time frame of the biblical epic without break in lineage in most cases!!


I don't mean to rub your nose in it Toga but I don't "troll" the internet looking for blurbs of dubious disemination to substantiate a prejudiced position but rather objectively look for the truth without regards to my own personal bias.

Throw away your prejudices and use your powers of objective reason for once,who knows you might like it;)

Doron Bechar(Rambam Medical Center) is about as objective in his scientific research regarding race and inheritance as Mengele was with regards to "Aryan" ancestry theories..

[physics]

Please do not listen to garbage. Those who intermarry are trying to find some justification for breaking the chain. The 4 women who most of us come from were all Jewish.

I don't think so. Studies of some Ashkenazis have shown that their maternal genes match those of the local European women. The fathers genes match those of middle eastern men.

Mitochondrial DNA is only passed through maternal lines, and some Ashkenazi's had this gene that matched those of Goyim Europeans.

This is not some coverup for Jewish identity. These genes were passed on for generations. This proves that mothers were Goyim, yet the Jewish identity was passed on. The amazing thing is these Jews survived and did not submit to the persecution.

[physics]

The 4 women who most of us come from were all Jewish.

40% is not the majority. What about the rest of the 60%? It implies that they aren't descendents of these four women.

Also, if you are so confident that you are descendent of these four women, why don't you get tested and find out. I definitely want to find out, where can I get tested for these genes?

I think that as many Ashkenazi Jews should get tested.

[physics]

Maternal descent plays a partial role in Jewish lineage. Jewish identity has also been based on studying ancient texts, celebrating holidays, carrying out traditions, knowing certain languages, eating certain food, etc. Many of these aspects were developed during the exile, and not in ancient Israel.

A distinct Jewish culture has shaped Jewish identity over the years. It's possible that some Jews have ancient Hebrew maternal roots, but it's also possible that some Jews have goyim maternal lineage, nevertheless, the Jewish culture has survived.

[Labyu]

Maternal descent plays a partial role in Jewish lineage. Jewish identity has also been based on studying ancient texts, celebrating holidays, carrying out traditions, knowing certain languages, eating certain food, etc. Many of these aspects were developed during the exile, and not in ancient Israel.

A distinct Jewish culture has shaped Jewish identity over the years. It's possible that some Jews have ancient Hebrew maternal roots, but it's also possible that some Jews have goyim maternal lineage, nevertheless, the Jewish culture has survived.


In the Tanakh there is very little attention paid to maternal lineage anyway.Name a Patriarch,chieftain with a Jewish meternal lineage and then count the number of them with Gentile mothers and you will be amazed.

Othodoxy has created an artificial division among Jewish people creating a weakness in our numbers and capacity for self determination that has probably contibuted to most of our suffering since the Exile!!!

They represent a Blip on the Jewish historical radar screen compared to the millenia before they crafted this little niche for themselves and it's about time we use the newest historical and archaeological discoveries about what our ancestors actually beileved and practiced to force a correction of this travesty of judgement.






BTW: I "Married Jewish" because my wife is brilliant and gorgeous,not because I believe I had to "make due" with a Jewish Girl to assure that I had Jewish offspring that would be acceptable to the Peyot Mafia!

[minusthejihad]

Those who intermarry are trying to find some justification for breaking the chain.

You've obviously never been with a woman before, have you?

With your idiotic line of reasoning, one can say that those who marry within their religion are only doing so to justify their Jewishness. I'd hope that's not why people marry.

[Mira]

It’s interesting to see how different people on this board approach the issue. We have some people who argue that Jewishness should be determined according to halacha (Toga), and others who argue that the traditions that we as a People have followed through the authority of Rabbinical Judaism are incorrect and should therefore be challenged (Labyu). There is a lot at stake in this debate and so I think we should focus on two things; what are the arguments for and against being more inclusive; and what are the ramifications of the different approaches. The one thing that I think we can and should all be in agreement with is that we are a dynamic People and so our traditions are open for examination, and should be examined in light of today’s realities both within and without Israel. We just need to better understand what points are legitimate in addressing the debate.

Legitimacy

Some of the genetic testing information is being presented in order show that halacha is invalid based on the actual genetic makeup of Modern Jews. Like redcake, I’m uncomfortable with this approach for several reasons. First, you can always find a study to contradict the one you support. Second, these studies do not jive with our history and traditions. The only time that the Israelites lived in a vacuum is when they were wandering through the Sinai on their way to Canaan (or so we are told – hint, hint). There have been countless converts in our history, some of them like Ruth who was so revered that she was deemed the progenitor of our Messiah. Jewish tradition isn’t dependant and CANNOT BE DEPENDANT on verifying our traditions through science and archeology. Our narrative is our identity.

Based on what I just said, I think that using the Tanach to evaluate our traditions is a good way to examine the issue. If we can agree on that, then we can begin to evaluate the legitimacy of the position taken by Rabbinical Judaism as well as both the positive and negative ramifications of these alternative viewpoints on Jewish identity. All of this we can do while keeping in mind that each of us are limited in our knowledge and training. Nothing is going to be resovled here, but maybe we can all move a little farther along in our individual understanding and gain some sensitivities to the various viewpoints.

[physics]

BTW: I "Married Jewish" because my wife is brilliant and gorgeous,not because I believe I had to "make due" with a Jewish Girl to assure that I had Jewish offspring that would be acceptable to the Peyot Mafia!

Right!

Marrying Jewish isn't just for producing Jewish offspring according to the Halacha. Two Jewish people simply have much in common culturally, and this creates a strong bond and attraction. Two Jews Having secular values in common just strengthens the attraction!

Two Jews simply understand eachother better than anyone else. It's true. This applies to any ethnicity.

[physics]

The mother and father contribute equally to their children's DNA makeup. Since you only justify Jewishness based on genes, can you explain why a mother's genes are more important than the fathers?

I justify Jewishness beyond just similar genes. Traditions plays a major role.

[physics]

If genetic lineage is important for you, I recommend checking out:

http://www.familytreedna.com/

We can't hide from science. Maybe we should all get tested sometime and get a good approximation of our ancestry.

[Mira]

Oh for fcuk's sake. :rolleyes: Forget this!

[Labyu]

Do not begin to think I would consider even a convert's legitimacy an issue but refusing a Jewish education and status as a full citizen of the world Jewish community based on an Orthodox misinterpretation(or fraud) is unthinkable!!

Bemidbar(Numbers)Ch1 Vs18 "And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month and they declared their pedigrees after their families by their fathers’ houses.."

Congegation?Pedigrees?Father's Houses(households)?There is no mention of maternal legitimacy and this is talking about the congregation not the tribal affiliation.Everywhere a pedigree is mention the unbroken lineage is ALWAYS MALE with many,many presumably legitimate Israelites having gentile mothers(Manasseh,Ephraim,Eliazar,Gershom to name a few).

There is not even inference or possibility of conversion of the mother in either of these so here we have doubtlessly Gentile mothers giving birth to tribal chiefs and priests!!

Vayikra(Leviticus) Ch24 Vs10-11“And the son of an Israelite woman whose father was an Egyptian went out among the children of Israel; and the son of the Israelite woman and the man of Israel strove together in the camp. And the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name [of the Lord]. And cursed; and they brought him unto Moses.."

So the "Son of an Israelite woman" is not the same as a "Man of Israel" and is not afforded the same protections or responsibilities as an authentic "Man of Israel".Here again it is demonstrated that according to Torah(and the rest of Tanakh) that these approved offsping of a Jewish mother and a Gentile father would not have been considered a "Man if Israel" while the son of a Jewish man and an Egytian or Midianite woman could be rulers or priests!!!

[Mira]

Do not begin to think I would consider even a convert's legitimacy an issue but refusing a Jewish education and status as a full citizen of the world Jewish community based on an Orthodox misinterpretation(or fraud) is unthinkable!!

Bemidbar(Numbers)Ch1 Vs18 "And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month and they declared their pedigrees after their families by their fathers’ houses.."

Congegation?Pedigrees?Father's Houses(households)?There is no mention of maternal legitimacy and this is talking about the congregation not the tribal affiliation.Everywhere a pedigree is mention the unbroken lineage is ALWAYS MALE with many,many presumably legitimate Israelites having gentile mothers(Manasseh,Ephraim,Eliazar,Gershom to name a few).

There is not even inference or possibility of conversion of the mother in either of these so here we have doubtlessly Gentile mothers giving birth to tribal chiefs and priests!!

I went and read the entire chapter and the context is that they were gathering the men together for war. They were counting those available to fight in the land of Canaan and they were assigned their inheritance in the land (which is passed on by the father) according to their respective tribe (Judah, Dan, Benjamin..and so on).

I don't have an immediete answer for the second verse. It sounds interesting. I'll check the chapter and see what I can do to respond to it.

[Mira]

For those of you who are not into Torah, I promise this won't go on for very long from my end. But given some of the positions that people take on this board concerning the issue, I think it is important to try and go through this part of the prior debate.

[Labyu]

I went and read the entire chapter and the context is that they were gathering the men together for war. They were counting those available to fight in the land of Canaan and they were assigned their inheritance in the land (which is passed on by the father) according to their respective tribe (Judah, Dan, Benjamin..and so on).

I don't have an immediete answer for the second verse. It sounds interesting. I'll check the chapter and see what I can do to respond to it.


How is that an answer?

The concept of a there being a difference between tribal affiliation and birthright is a Talmudic fabrication which the second verse bears out without question.The man with an Israelite mother and a Jewish father was not a "Man of Israel" he was a gentile!!

The questionable postion is not if one can prove that Paternal anscestry is a valid determining factor in Jewishness because male descent is the rule not the exception througout Tanakh.

The questionable position is the Orthodox one which is not very effectively born out in the Tanakh and the "Peyot Mafia" will make all kinds of references to Esther but who cares?The book is marginally canonical and almost eneded up like the Maccabean epic as a side note.

Torah is the only true test and there is one reference to the importance of maternal descent and it is only stated as a personal preference of the parents of a young man not the will of Hashem!!!


Matrilineal descent has no basis in Torah.

This idea didn't gain prominence until a little while after the sitiution it was legislated to address(for an entirely different reason) but when the Muslims came on the scene and started gaining uneducated Jewish converts by claiming that Ishmael was really the legitimate 1st born of Avraham and heir of Hashem's promise they decided to make it one of their core issues.

In early post-exilic times fear of proselytization and a 2nd class status that allowed the ruling gentile class to "have first turn" with a Jew's virgin wife on their wedding night in much of the Hellenic(and later Islamic) world brought on the biggest fit of male insecurity in human history.
The question became absolutely core to Jewish identity because a newly married Jewish couple would have no idea who their offspring belonged to paternally.

It's pretty sickening but the fact that they didn't just pick up and leave means that there was complicity even if under duress which is a sign of abominable weakness.

Any "Man of Israel" from the time of the Tanakh would have packed up his fiance and headed for the wilderness rather than see a "Virgin of Tzion" defiled by the uncircumcised!!


I propose that either a Jewish Mother or Father makes one equally Jewish but all of the tacit agreements in the world by reasonable Jews will be thrown out the window when we allow our ultimate authority to be the Orthodox rather than Hashem.

[Mira]

How is that an answer?

I responded to the first verse and told you that I would respond to the second verse later.

The concept of a there being a difference between tribal affiliation and birthright is a Talmudic fabrication which the second verse bears out without question.The man with an Israelite mother and a Jewish father was not a "Man of Israel" he was a gentile!!


10. Now, the son of an Israelite woman and he was the son of an Egyptian man went out among the children of Israel, and they quarreled in the camp this son of the Israelite woman, and an Israelite man.
11. And the son of the Israelite woman pronounced the [Divine] Name and cursed. So they brought him to Moses. His mother's name was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.
12. They placed him in the guardhouse, [until his sentence would] be specified to them by the word of the Lord.
13. Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
14. Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and all who heard [his blasphemy] shall lean their hands on his head. And the entire community shall stone him.
15. And to the children of Israel, you shall speak, saying: Any man who blasphemes his God shall bear his sin.
16. And one who blasphemously pronounces the Name of the Lord, shall be put to death; the entire community shall stone him; convert and resident alike if he pronounces the [Divine] Name, he shall be put to death.


A couple things...

The boy was out among the children of Israel. This could mean that he was counted among them. He would have stood with everyone else at Mount Sinai, but after witnessing what everyone else saw and heard, he learned only enough to curse and utters G-d's ineffable name. This was his failure. Though I can see your argument, it's not clear to me that Judaism should be based on the lineage of the father for this reason, especially considering that the boy is brought forward for blasphemy. Also, it is his mother's lineage that is announced before he is sentenced.

I need something stronger. What else do you have?

[Labyu]

I need something stronger. What else do you have?


Just for starters,there are almost as many gentile mothers of key figures as Jewish mothers of key figures but let's get some important ones out of the way first.

Manasseh and Ephraim Fathers of Israelite tribes and legitmate heirs of Yoseph.Sons of a Pagan Egyptian mother who had no benefit of conversion.

Elezer and Gershom born of a midianite woman who's father was the high priest of another religion and is not known to have been converted.

King David great,great... grandson of Rahab the Canaanite Harlot


I can continue and cite examples from Exodus to Ezra and if need be I will continue to state that there is no difference in Jewishness between offspring born of captured pagan women or Israelite women throughout the Tanakh until the book of Ezra.


Besides why would they give instructions for how to marry a gentile woman if it would ban their offspring from being Jewish?

Devarim(Deuteronomy)Ch21 Vs10-13.“When thou goest forth to battle… and sees among the captives a beautiful woman and thou has a desire on to her and thou wouldest take her to thee wife… and shall remain in thine house and bewail her father and mother a full month, and
after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife…

[redcake]

What's the "Peyot mafia" and when did this become NarcoticsForum.com ?

The truth is, the females on Jdate are all looking for men who are 6 foot and over. They've obviously never been in a synagogue to see what an average height Jew looks like. Keeping kosher would likely be a turn of for many of them. Then the Modern Orthodox women refuse to date Men unless they keep their specific brand of Kosher. Being a Jew of any type, from a Jewish Mother, or not, still isn't good enough for them. Peyos aren't involved with either of those scenarios. It's really an argument over assimilation. The only place where the Orthodox really control civil interest issues is in Israel. A Jew in the US can marry and do what they want, and if they want to go to Temple, there's nobody at their local schull to do a background check.

In regards to the signifigance of the maternal lineage.... there are some borderline feminist statements in Judaism, and one of them is the thought that when a woman dovens, her voice resonates louder (symbolically of course). We also know that our instructions for how we are to live as Jews were handed through a woman (10 Commandments, aside). This is one of the major things which makes a woman important to Judaism, and where traditionally, women play a different, but drastically important roll, which is not meant to be subserviant. How strange but typical that in the name of progress, that would be forgotten.

[Labyu]

The truth is, the females on Jdate are all looking for men who are 6 foot and over. They've obviously never been in a synagogue to see what an average height Jew looks like.

Might be because all of the Jewish men want nice little petite women and they gain preference in breeding selection keeping the average height under what it would be for the rest of the western world(who increases in height significantly each generation).There are however plenty of "1/2 Jewish" men in movies and sports who are well over 6ft tall;)

Keeping kosher would likely be a turn of for many of them.

Ouch!!I wish that weren't true but it is,Jewish Women today are told that even if they breed with "whatever" piques their curiosity that their offspring will still be Jewish:eek:

So why do they even need Jewish men at all according to the Orthodox?Paternal descent doesn't count anymore so just go get nuetered and save our wonderful Jewish women the trouble of even having to
consider us as potential husbands when they really want basketball players and cross-country skiers from Sweden anyway:p


Then the Modern Orthodox women refuse to date Men unless they keep their specific brand of Kosher. Being a Jew of any type, from a Jewish Mother, or not, still isn't good enough for them.

Ever notice how many of them are in their 30s and 40s but still unmarried?Ever notice how many of them are extememly judgemental/cranky(they call it selective)?I almost gave up on Jewish girls and resigned myself to being a prolific bachelor with lots of gentile girlfriends until I met my wife and even though she knew my Shiksa habit too well to think I was marriage material she still decided to enjoy my company anyway and after pestering her for 6 years she finally went out with me on a real date and the rest is ancient history.

Peyos aren't involved with either of those scenarios. It's really an argument over assimilation. The only place where the Orthodox really control civil interest issues is in Israel.


Israel is the ultimate issue for any real Jew and even though my family meets all of their little moronic criteria there are many who don't but want to go and others who do meet the criteria but don't want(or deserve to go)!!Any Jew that does not at least consider Aliyah might as well hang up their Kippah and go become a scientologist,Baptist Fundy or whatever.

A Jew in the US can marry and do what they want, and if they want to go to Temple, there's nobody at their local schull to do a background check.


That's not good enough,the prevailing consensus is that the Reform Movement Jews are the "Weakest link" and for a spiritually devout person they are have to go to the Orhtodox if they want to have Minyan,use a Mikvah or any other particularly Jewish activity commanded by Hashem.I used to do it myself 3 times a week and spent my weekend at the Chabad house until I realized that their Halakah was horribly flawed.Now I just "get by" and I find it very unfulfilling.I wonder how Jewish men with gentile wives and Orthodoxicaly unnacceptable offspring feel?It's not right and I can feel that in my very soul.

In regards to the signifigance of the maternal lineage.... there are some borderline feminist statements in Judaism, and one of them is the thought that when a woman dovens, her voice resonates louder (symbolically of course). We also know that our instructions for how we are to live as Jews were handed through a woman (10 Commandments, aside). This is one of the major things which makes a woman important to Judaism, and where traditionally, women play a different, but drastically important roll, which is not meant to be subserviant. How strange but typical that in the name of progress, that would be forgotten.

The female character is less prone to sin and more naturally intutive than the male anyway so that is a given but it does not replace the importance of what a man imparts to his offspring.I know lot's of ham eating,blasphemous,confused "Jews" from mixed marriages with a Jewish mother and a "Whatever" father but the reverse is almost never true because men have the ability to be less empathetic and more authoritative.I always knew my mother would "understand" if I showed poor judgement but my father finding out would have been the end of the world!!Just glaring at me and staring over his glasses illicited a full confession and remorse for my misdeeds.

Gentile men could give a @#$% if their kids sneak a shrimp cocktail,blaspheme,don't wash their hands before dinner or any other detail so what kind of Jew will they raise?

Look around you and you'll see what I'm talking about...

[Mira]

Just for starters,there are almost as many gentile mothers of key figures as Jewish mothers of key figures but let's get some important ones out of the way first.

Manasseh and Ephraim Fathers of Isrtaelite tribes and legitmate heirs of Yoseph.Sons of a Pagan Egyptian mother who had no benefit of conversion.

Eliazar the high priest of all of Israel and the only person after the demise of Moses who could approach the Kodesh Kodashim wihtout being instantly struck dead by Hashem's presence.A midianite woman who's father was the high priest of another religion and is not known to have been converted.Eleazar is the brother of Moses and the son of Aron, who was at Mount Sinai to witness and accept the giving of the Torah. When Aron accepted the Torah, he became a full fledge Israelite. We didn't receive the Torah until Mount Sinai, so the conversion prior to this time would be the acceptance of the One G-d of Abraham along with the father's blessing as was the norm in all of these societies at the time. Blessing is not the same as lineage. Thus Abraham's blessing passes to Issac rather than Ishmael according to Judaism, and then to Jacob rather than Esau. Manasseh and Ephraim, though sons of Joseph, received their blessing from Jacob rather than Joseph. Genesis 48

I can continue and cite examples from Exodus to Ezra and if need be I will continue to state that there is no difference in Jewishness between offspring born of captured pagan women or Israelite women throughout the Tanakh until the book of Ezra.
How can you tell whether these women converted or not when they enter into their husbands homes? The emphasis of most of the stories are on the men. We do know what Ezra did when he returned to the land and we do know that Soloman was chastised and punished for having been influenced by his non-Israelite wives:

" King Solomon loved many Gentile women, such as the daughter of Pharaoh, Moabite, Amonite, Edomite, Sidonite, and Hittite women. They are Gentiles, about whom Hashem told the Children of Israel "Do not intermarry with them and do not let them intermarry with you, for they will surely influence you towards their religions." Those are the people that Solomon clung to in love. He had seven hundred queen-wives, and three hundred concubines, and these women influenced him.

When Solomon grew old, his wives influenced him towards their gods, and thus his heart was not complete in his service of Hashem, as his father David's was....

G-d said to Solomon, Since this is the way you are, and you have not fully obeyed My covenant and My Laws that I commanded you, I shall tear part of the kingdom from you, and I will give it to one of your subjects. I shall not do this in your lifetime, for the sake of your father David. I shall tear it away from your son." Kings Chapter 11.

Besides why would they give instructions for how to marry a gentile woman if it would ban their offspring from being Jewish?

Devarim(Deuteronomy)Ch21 Vs10-13.“When thou goest forth to battle… and sees among the captives a beautiful woman and thou has a desire on to her and thou wouldest take her to thee wife… and shall remain in thine house and bewail her father and mother a full month, and
after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife…

Do you really think that an Israelite who took a gentile woman into his home and made her his wife and the mother of his children did not have her accept his G-d and Torah? When battles were won in those days, the conquered tribe viewed the G-d of the winner as superior. If there is any doubt that patilineal lineage was not determinative, you can see this in Ezra, where the Jews who returned to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.

[Mira]

I am going to stop now. The reason why I did this is very simple, Labyu. The way that you are approaching this, to call frum Jews the Peyot mafia and try and discredit them using the Torah is a useless exercise. Do you really think that you will change their minds with what you are doing? And are you going to try and invalidate their Judaism based on your understanding of the Torah (which isn’t that strong, be honest). In terms of the exercise of power, this only happens in Israel (as redcake points out), and the way to combat that control is though civil government, democracy and a growing interest in Judaism by secular Israelis. As for Judaism in the diaspora, it makes very little difference today, though I think we should talk about the ramification and what’s at stake. I just want that discussion to be rational and considerate.

[redcake]

The Minyan standards you describe aren't so common in the US, even amonst ultra-devout. The Mikvahs are kept afloat (I'm not sure if that pun was intended) by Hasidim.... and okay, so they're a growing bunch, but the tendency to speak of the Hasidim, and the Orthodox as the same thing needs to stop. Especially in the case of this conversation...

I was reading one of the Chabbad related q/a pages (I want to say it was Askmoses, but I'm too lazy to check again) and they described the tribal affiliations coming again, from the Mother, rather then the Paternal. So really, you name a custom, and there's someone doing the opposite. The importance of the Paternal line isn't a question though. It's how we get our Cohenim. Or are supposed to. The DNA studies would tell you different, and I have a feeling a lot of our Rabbis weren't born Cohens.

As a side note, my father was Orthodox, while my Mother was the one who let me eat what I want. So generalizations only go so far I guess?

[Labyu]

I am going to stop now. The reason why I did this is very simple, Labyu. The way that you are approaching this, to call frum Jews the Peyot mafia and try and discredit them using the Torah is a useless exercise. Do you really think that you will change their minds with what you are doing? And are you going to try and invalidate their Judaism based on your understanding of the Torah (which isn’t that strong, be honest). In terms of the exercise of power, this only happens in Israel (as redcake points out), and the way to combat that control is though civil government, democracy and a growing interest in Judaism by secular Israelis. As for Judaism in the diaspora, it makes very little difference today, though I think we should talk about the ramification and what’s at stake. I just want that discussion to be rational and considerate.

A little "cut and paste" error and you use that an excuse to stop?
It's not about getting them to change their minds it's about seperating their errors from the descision we make right now that will effect the spiritual future of Jews for centuries to come.They came into authority by certain circumstances and they can either make themselves relevant again by reconvening and correcting some of these errors or they can go the way of the Samaritans and Kairaim and fade into obscurity leaving us with no central authority to look to for religious continuity.

Here is something from http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr5083.htm that basically blows my mind but sure does explain why some of us have so much gentile mtDNA.

When was Matralineal descent instituted?
Q: I have heard that matrilinial decent originated after Jewish women were raped in times of war. Are the origins of this decree confirmed in Jewish text? If so, where?

A: Have you heard of "urban myths?" This is a common "university myth." On the surface it seems to make sense and has a certain provocative quality which makes it interesting to talk about. However, reality is even more interesting. The definitive study on this subject is by Shaye Cohen who shows that Jews switched to matrilineal descent during the Roman period. Why? It turns out the a sizable number of pagan Roman matrons were converting to Judaism for both legal and religious reasons. This is attested to in rabbinic literature, early Church documents and Roman records. The husbands of these women were less likely to convert since it required adult circumcision without anesthetic or antiseptics, and there were different legal issues. Jewish law (and the Jewish community) determined that the marriages between the newly Jewish Roman matrons and their pagan husbands were valid and that the children of those marriages were ..... Jewish! According to Cohen, the switch to matrilineal descent was an outreach strategy. History has a tendency of repeating.

[Mira]

A little "cut and paste" error and you use that an excuse to stop?
It's not about getting them to change their minds it's about seperating their errors from the descision we make right now that will effect the spiritual future of Jews for centuries to come.They came into authority by certain circumstances and they can either make themselves relevant again by reconvening and correcting some of these errors or they can go the way of the Samaritans and Kairaim and fade into obscurity leaving us with no central authority to look to for religious continuity.I don't know what you are referring to in the first sentence, but I'm kind of tired. It might have something to do with you and me still being on this board so late. My point is that you aren't going to undermine them that way. Honestly, I think the prohabition originally applied equally to men and women as it says not to allow your sons to take their daughters and not to allow their sons to take your daughters.

[physics]

Why keep the Jewish lineage? because despite a long history of persecution Jews managed to survive. In today's free world, it's a challenging honor to continue the Jewish lineage, whether by orthodox or Reform standards.

The one aspect I respect about the Reform is that it allows Jewish fathers to pass on Jewish traditions, rather than turning them away forever and losing many followers. If the Goy mother doesn't join the Jewish community, then there's a good chance that Jewish traditions will disappear from the family in a few generations.

How does Jewish lineage get lost? through ignorance and lack of caring/appreciation of Jewish history. Jewishness becomes nothing more than buried history.

[Mira]

Here is something from http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr5083.htm that basically blows my mind but sure does explain why some of us have so much gentile mtDNA.

When was Matralineal descent instituted?
Q: I have heard that matrilinial decent originated after Jewish women were raped in times of war. Are the origins of this decree confirmed in Jewish text? If so, where?

A: Have you heard of "urban myths?" This is a common "university myth." On the surface it seems to make sense and has a certain provocative quality which makes it interesting to talk about. However, reality is even more interesting. The definitive study on this subject is by Shaye Cohen who shows that Jews switched to matrilineal descent during the Roman period. Why? It turns out the a sizable number of pagan Roman matrons were converting to Judaism for both legal and religious reasons. This is attested to in rabbinic literature, early Church documents and Roman records. The husbands of these women were less likely to convert since it required adult circumcision without anesthetic or antiseptics, and there were different legal issues. Jewish law (and the Jewish community) determined that the marriages between the newly Jewish Roman matrons and their pagan husbands were valid and that the children of those marriages were ..... Jewish! According to Cohen, the switch to matrilineal descent was an outreach strategy. History has a tendency of repeating.

That's good. It's not something to bash the Orthodox over their heads with, but it is something for Reform Jews to use to bolster their position. What this demonstrates is a liberalization of Judaism in reaction to a dramatic social change. The standard was originally that both man and wife had to be Jewish as it says not to let your daughters take their sons and not to let their sons take your daughters. All throughout our history, there were lots of conversions and it is fairly safe to assume that with few exceptions that we are warned about (Soloman and Ezra for example) these women accepted the yoke of the Torah and became Jews. When that occurred, they became daughters of Israel. Probably for the reasons that are pointed out in the article, all throughout Canaan, Babylon and wherever Jews went, there were few gentile men converting because of the difficulty of undergoing circumcision. What happened during the Roman occupation was that a new pattern was evolving where large numbers of married gentile women wanted to become Jews.

The Reform could argue that today there is a new pattern that has emerged where over 50% of today's Jews intermarry and so we should once again consider liberalizing Judaism or at least a segment within Judaism (their segment) in order to keep Jews in the fold. But you have to understand why that argument is not going to be convincing fthroughout all of Judaism.

[Mira]

How does Jewish lineage get lost? through ignorance and lack of caring/appreciation of Jewish history. Jewishness becomes nothing more than buried history.

I agree completely with this.

[Toga]

I don't think so. Studies of some Ashkenazis have shown that their maternal genes match those of the local European women. The fathers genes match those of middle eastern men.

Mitochondrial DNA is only passed through maternal lines, and some Ashkenazi's had this gene that matched those of Goyim Europeans.

This is not some coverup for Jewish identity. These genes were passed on for generations. This proves that mothers were Goyim, yet the Jewish identity was passed on. The amazing thing is these Jews survived and did not submit to the persecution.


Please provide the source!

[Toga]

40% is not the majority. What about the rest of the 60%? It implies that they aren't descendents of these four women.

Also, if you are so confident that you are descendent of these four women, why don't you get tested and find out. I definitely want to find out, where can I get tested for these genes?

I think that as many Ashkenazi Jews should get tested.

Yeah, go get tested!

[Toga]

Maternal descent plays a partial role in Jewish lineage. Jewish identity has also been based on studying ancient texts, celebrating holidays, carrying out traditions, knowing certain languages, eating certain food, etc. Many of these aspects were developed during the exile, and not in ancient Israel.

A distinct Jewish culture has shaped Jewish identity over the years. It's possible that some Jews have ancient Hebrew maternal roots, but it's also possible that some Jews have goyim maternal lineage, nevertheless, the Jewish culture has survived.

The Jewish identification is based on the maternal lineage. I agree. The Jewish culture is greatly influenced by "studying ancient texts, celebrating holidays, carrying out traditions, knowing certain languages, eating certain food, etc."

[Toga]

You've obviously never been with a woman before, have you?

With your idiotic line of reasoning, one can say that those who marry within their religion are only doing so to justify their Jewishness. I'd hope that's not why people marry.

A totally idiotic response. Well, you broke your ancestorial chain and your kids will not be Jewish. Period! You can yell at the moon but you will not change that fact.

[Toga]

The mother and father contribute equally to their children's DNA makeup. Since you only justify Jewishness based on genes, can you explain why a mother's genes are more important than the fathers?

I justify Jewishness beyond just similar genes. Traditions plays a major role.


You still don't get it. Is it so hard to understand that Jewishness is NOT based on any physical characteristics?

[Toga]

That's good. It's not something to bash the Orthodox over their heads with, but it is something for Reform Jews to use to bolster their position. What this demonstrates is a liberalization of Judaism in reaction to a dramatic social change. The standard was originally that both man and wife had to be Jewish as it says not to let your daughters take their sons and not to let their sons take your daughters. All throughout our history, there were lots of conversions and it is fairly safe to assume that with few exceptions that we are warned about (Soloman and Ezra for example) these women accepted the yoke of the Torah and became Jews. When that occurred, they became daughters of Israel. Probably for the reasons that are pointed out in the article, all throughout Canaan, Babylon and wherever Jews went, there were few gentile men converting because of the difficulty of undergoing circumcision. What happened during the Roman occupation was that a new pattern was evolving where large numbers of married gentile women wanted to become Jews.

The Reform could argue that today there is a new pattern that has emerged where over 50% of today's Jews intermarry and so we should once again consider liberalizing Judaism or at least a segment within Judaism (their segment) in order to keep Jews in the fold. But you have to understand why that argument is not going to be convincing fthroughout all of Judaism.

The watered down Jewishness and Judaism can only create Christians who once upon a time had the Jews in their ancestorial lineage.

[physics]

Yeah, go get tested!

Buddy, you should get tested too if you preach Jewish genes from the four ancient mothers. You seem very confident, so go try it.

You still don't get it. Is it so hard to understand that Jewishness is NOT based on any physical characteristics?

I understand the maternal lineage pretty well. But I also understand that Jewish culture plays a great role in Jewish identity.

[physics]

I think that Many Non-Halachaic Jews perished in the Holocaust. The Nazi's could care less. Guess what, they still count as Jews, after all, that's what killed them.

[physics]

Do you want to push away males born to Goyim mothers and Jewish fathers, or do you want them to learn Jewish culture/history, and marry nice Jewish girls and produce nice Jewish children?

If you push them away harshly, they could care less about Jewish history/culture, assimilate into Christian culture, and they will probably marry Gentile girls. So your harsh attitude just throws away potential contributors to the Jewish community.

[Mediocrates]

What happened during the Roman occupation was that a new pattern was evolving where large numbers of married gentile women wanted to become Jews.




It depended on who was in charge. There were a few Roman leaders who were sympathetic, even charitable to Judaism and believed as the Persians did that it was better to leave people alone than antagonize a captive population into rising up against them. Mostly though the so called 'Great Emperors' like Trajan and Hadrian were Roman nationalists who sought to destroy all evidence of Jewish culture. This continued through the reign of Constantine and later, through the council of Nicea which outlawed the practice of Judaism in the Holy Land.

[Mediocrates]

I think that Many Non-Halachaic Jews perished in the Holocaust. The Nazi's could care less. Guess what, they still count as Jews, after all, that's what killed them.


Any Great Grandparents they classified as Jewish was sufficient for them to murder. This is the great lesson the assimilated Jews of Germany failed to comprehend and we still fail to comprehend today. They believed they were as 'German' as the Germans. They were patriotic, they fought in the last war. They thought they were embraced. They believed it could never happen in the most modern, educated, philosophical society on earth that an entire nation could rise up against its own minorities and exterminate them.

[minusthejihad]

If you push them away harshly, they could care less about Jewish history/culture, assimilate into Christian culture, and they will probably marry Gentile girls. So your harsh attitude just throws away potential contributors to the Jewish community.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. He can make all sorts of whiny sounds and flail his arms around a bit. But I highly doubt he can influence anyone. If some fat virgin mama's boy can push someone away from their faith, they probably lacked it in the first place. Toga can howl at the moon until he is blue in the face, but my kids will still be Jews.

[Labyu]

The watered down Jewishness and Judaism can only create Christians who once upon a time had the Jews in their ancestorial lineage.


The only reason a "cast off" Jew turns to Christianity is because they are rejected by the Jewish community at large.Usually due to arbitrary legalism that has it's roots in gentile oppression anyway!!

Western Christianity offers an artificial connection to Jewish history(through the Christian appropriation of the Tanakh) and to Hashem(though corrupted by the Christian Trinitarian doctrine) that unfortunately is far more accessible to "cast off" Jews in the Diaspora than Judaism is.

If left with no Jewish outlet for the yearning of their soul they will head right for Torah,Moses and Hashem wherever they can find it.

It's our fault for discarding them,not theirs for being left with no alternative.

[physics]

Any Great Grandparents they classified as Jewish was sufficient for them to murder. This is the great lesson the assimilated Jews of Germany failed to comprehend and we still fail to comprehend today.

Yes, unfortunately the assimilated Jews learned their lessons in the most horrible ways.

Today, another Holocaust is unlikely, but today's assimilated Jews should show some dam respect for their Jewish ancestors.

The lesson of the Holocaust taught us the meaning of the "Jewish People", a distinct minority group with Jewish roots, by father or mother. We can throw the Halacha out the window when discussing the Holocaust.

[Mediocrates]

We can throw the Halacha out the window when discussing the Holocaust.

Yes and no. While it's true the assimilated Jews of Germany went up the chimney just like the pious poor of Poland, it took I think a rare breed of observant to pack up the suitcases, sail off to America and then drop most conventions of observance in their new countries. It's not by accident that Conservative is almost exclusively a new world phenomenon and Reform, while its roots are in the German Haskala experience is too more of a new world phenomenom as well. Those who clung to their rigid piety in the old world were for the most part sent to their mass graves either by the Cossacks, the Tsar, the Bolsheviks or the Nazis.

[Mediocrates]

In the end it comes down to whatever is better for the enlargement of Judaism in toto. Chabad does a wonderful job of 'inreach' but says nothing to or for anyone outside of that sphere. Masorti and/or Reform make no attempt to outreach either but they contain within them a more expansive definition of what Jews are so the actualy roll up your sleeves work they have to do to keep those Jews in their orbit is far less.

And please make no mistake about it - you can have cafeteria plan Judaism with the Orthodox too.

[physics]

I think the Holocaust proved that getting rid of the Jewish identity was impossible. The Nazi's probed back for several generations until they found some Jewish roots. The problem back then was that having Jewish roots was a liability. But in today's free world, having Jewish roots is something to celebrate.

The tragedy of today's assimilated Jews is that they do not rediscover their Jewish roots, and therefore it becomes lost forever.

[minusthejihad]

A totally idiotic response. Well, you broke your ancestorial chain and your kids will not be Jewish. Period! You can yell at the moon but you will not change that fact.

Well, we can't all be perfect enough to share in your exhilarating lifestyle (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000AARKI0.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)!

[physics]

Enough with the childish insults. Let's try to have a serious conversation.

[minusthejihad]

Enough with the childish insults. Let's try to have a serious conversation.

Sorry, I'm here for the comedy relief. I've been here far too long to debate the same points over and over. I leave that for the dedicated.

[minusthejihad]

And besides, my insults aren't childish, maybe downright mean, nasty, and straight for the jugular, but not childish. I leave those up to KSO, the village idiot.

[KSO]

And besides, my insults aren't childish, maybe downright mean, nasty, and straight for the jugular, but not childish. I leave those up to KSO, the village idiot.

אמריקקה טיפש
שוטה מילר לייט
חוזר הביתה בקופסא

[minusthejihad]

אמריקקה טיפש
שוטה מילר לייט
חוזר הביתה בקופסא

Try again in a language I'm fluent in. Thanks.

[physics]

Here's a direct translation:

1st line: "America is stupid"
2nd line: I think there r some spelling errors but I am guessing it says something like "idiotic words"
3rd line: "Returns home in a box"

[physics]

It's obvious that children of two Jewish parents will have optimum Jewish identity.

In most cases, children of one Jewish parent will have limited Jewish identity no matter what.

I don't buy the whole maternal line story. A child born to only a Jewish mother is not more Jewish than a child born to only a Jewish father. In the case of intermarriage, it's about actions that develop Jewish identity such as education. The real tragedy would be if a child of intermarriage completely deviates from his/her Jewish roots. Such a child may not want to join a synagogue or study religion, but surely has every right to study Hebrew,Jewish history support Israel and take as much pride in Jewish identity. No one, Orthodox or conservative or others, can prevent that.

Note* I am fully Jewish, but I just have a strong opinion on the issue!

[Toga]

Note* I am fully Jewish, but I just have a strong opinion on the issue!

What does it mean "fully Jewish"? Is it the same thing as being fully pregnant or perhaps it identifies some Jews as not full Jews?

How much education does one need to understand that the notion of full Jews or fractional Jews does not exist. Just as a woman who is either pregnant or not pregnant a Jew is either a Jew or a non-Jew. Can a woman be partially pregnant?

There are no fractional, part, almost or a little bit Jewish Jews. You are either Jewish or you are not. Moreover, what you believe in is not relevant. The brilliant rabbis have the ability to interprete the Torah just like the US Supreme Court has the ability to interprete our constitution. You can create a fantasy or a belief. It is a free country. However, regardless of your meditative skills or fantasies ONLY a Jewish woman is capable of producing the Jewish kids.

[physics]

Fully Jewish=Two Jewish parents, which obviously meets the Halakah maternal rule.

The maternal rule has been the accepted norm for centuries, fine. But in most cases, Jews married eachother so the rule didn't matter anyways. This rule guarenteed Jewish lineage, in case a Jewish woman was raped, fine.

However, I find the notion the following belief ridiculous: A child born to only a Jewish mother is more Jewish than a child born to a Jewish father. Jewish women have the freedom to intermarry and care less about Jewish roots. I am sorry, but such an action violates the Jewish lineage just as much as a male intermarrying. Jewish women will have to pay the price for intermarriage as well!

Let's say we use the maternal line to define today's Jews. In this day and age, a child born to two Jewish parents is Jewish. A child born to only a single Jewish parent(mother or father) is not fully Jewish.

[physics]

The traditional Jewish community is an exclusive one, and it has the right to create its own rules and exclude others.

What I find disgusting is the attitude towards Jewish fathers who intermarry. Basically, the traditional Jewish community tells the father "Hey, don't even try to teach your children anything about Jewish culture. Just stay the helk away, buddy, your Jewish roots are meaningless."

While it tells Jewish mothers who intermarry the following "Hey, you can sleep around with whoever you want, don't worry, the child will be Jewish, it's ok, there's no pressure."

In the future, if you want people with Jewish roots(mother or father) to take pride in their roots and know something about it, then you better encourage them.

[physics]

Theoretically, gentile women can convert to Judaism and produce Jewish children. So there is an absence of Jewish roots for these women, yet they magically create Jewish children.

Dude I am talking about the Jewish ethnicity concept not Judaism. Not all Jews were/are religious. I am more concerned about Jews as distinct people.

[Labyu]

The maternal rule has been the accepted norm for centuries, fine. But in most cases, Jews married eachother so the rule didn't matter anyways. This rule guarenteed Jewish lineage, in case a Jewish woman was raped, fine.



Placing contemporary restrictions on the wisdom of the Patriarchs is idiotic and arrogant.Even the later sages admit that holiness decreases with each generation so how does what we think today or even what P'rushim Rabbis back in 212CE have the ability to be a concrete fixture in our minds?Patrilineal descent is the rule in Torah and was the rule until some short sighted rabbi wanted to win a popularity contest with the Romans in 212CE.

So Halacah=Pure Hellenist Rubbish?

If those rabbis could change the customs and restrictions of the very Patriarchs and Prophets who's to say they wouldn't change the Torah itself if they thought they could get away with it?Oh,indeed they have done everything in their power since the great debate between Hillel and Shamai.When Hillel won, he won a victory for compromise and Hellenism that has not ceased to this very day.

Genetic evidence shows that most Ashkenazim have Gentile matenal ancestry and Jewish paternal ancestry just like some of the grey area Jewish descended tribes in Africa.

If this is the case then these Rabbis promoting this stuff are a sad, ironic joke and Judaism actually died before the destruction of the second temple :mad:

I guess I am lucky enough to have Jewish ancestry on both sides but the idea that the descendents of Yoseph would have to go before a Beit Din just to go to Minyan is so retarded it makes me question all of the time spent listening to the unbiblical,anachronistic rablings of a bunch of 1/2 Jews who would not even be considered Jews by their own Halacah!!!!

[physics]

It's interesting to note that theoretically, from this point on, all Jewish women can marry gentile men, yet Jewish lineage will continue. So there should be no problem with all Jewish women marrying gentiles and all Jewish men marrying gentiles, it will have zero effect on the Halachaic lineage.

[Toga]

Fully Jewish=Two Jewish parents, which obviously meets the Halakah maternal rule.

The maternal rule has been the accepted norm for centuries, fine. But in most cases, Jews married eachother so the rule didn't matter anyways. This rule guarenteed Jewish lineage, in case a Jewish woman was raped, fine.

However, I find the notion the following belief ridiculous: A child born to only a Jewish mother is more Jewish than a child born to a Jewish father. Jewish women have the freedom to intermarry and care less about Jewish roots. I am sorry, but such an action violates the Jewish lineage just as much as a male intermarrying. Jewish women will have to pay the price for intermarriage as well!

Let's say we use the maternal line to define today's Jews. In this day and age, a child born to two Jewish parents is Jewish. A child born to only a single Jewish parent(mother or father) is not fully Jewish.

A child born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is just as "fully" Jewish and the child born to a Jewish mother and father. You still can't comprehend the brilliance of our sages. There was NO DNA research at the time. How did they know that certain genes can only be passed on by a woman?

It is truly facinating. The Jews are not identified by race, genes or blood but the Jewish soul. However, behind the maternal lineage there is a historical record of genealogy.

A child born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is NOT Jewish. Period! Your beliefs are not relevant. You can continue dreaming but you will not be able to change the Torah. It is a constant and not a variable!

[Toga]

Theoretically, gentile women can convert to Judaism and produce Jewish children. So there is an absence of Jewish roots for these women, yet they magically create Jewish children.

Dude I am talking about the Jewish ethnicity concept not Judaism. Not all Jews were/are religious. I am more concerned about Jews as distinct people.

You sound confused.

The soul of a woman who PROPERLY converts is Jewish. That is how the Jews are identified. Hence, she is just as Jewish as any other Jew. Period.

When her kids marry other Jews they acquire the genealogical historical make-up but that is not what identifies them as Jews.

[Toga]

It's interesting to note that theoretically, from this point on, all Jewish women can marry gentile men, yet Jewish lineage will continue. So there should be no problem with all Jewish women marrying gentiles and all Jewish men marrying gentiles, it will have zero effect on the Halachaic lineage.


A Jewish man who wants a normal Jewish family and kids will only marry a Jewish woman.

PS. Ask Labyu if his children marry Jews? I would venture to guess they did not. Hence, his descendents will go to a church and he is trying to justify their actions.

[Velvel]

Here's a direct translation:

1st line: "America is stupid"
2nd line: I think there r some spelling errors but I am guessing it says something like "idiotic words"
3rd line: "Returns home in a box"

2nd line more like "shotA (drinks) Miller Lite"

[Annaliese]

2nd line more like "shotA (drinks) Miller Lite"

LMAO, Velvel. If you go around the board correcting physics' Hebrew and/or English, you will have no time left to post.

... * just a friendly bit of info * ;)

[physics]

The point I am trying to make is that a child born to only a Jewish mother is just as likely to deviate from Jewish culture as a child born to only a Jewish father.

A child has no control over his/her lineage, but surely has control over actions relating to his/her culture. You place the lineage above culture, fine.

At least we agree on one thing, that two Jewish parents produce the best possible result.

[physics]

Just because a child is born to a Jewish mother doesn't guarentee that the child will stick to Jewish culture. The child can easily convert to another religion and marry a gentile. It actually takes action to develop Jewish identity after birth!

[physics]

2nd line more like "shotA (drinks) Miller Lite"

LMAO, Velvel. If you go around the board correcting physics' Hebrew and/or English, you will have no time left to post.

Velvel, you are right, the reason I missed the second line is because it has Miller Lite in Hebrew, there is no definite spelling for foreign names, so I was confused! But now I see it!

Anna, what are you laughing at? would you be able to provide a better translation?

[physics]

Hey Anna, can you understand the following sentence in English: "I drink Samogone."

You are probably confused or laughing and it makes no sense to you. However, little did you know that "Somogone" is a russian word for self-made alcohol. Actually, there could be many different spellings for it in English, since it's not a standard word.

Also, why would you assume that I know what "Miller Lite" is? So please stop the silly sidenotes.

[Annaliese]

Anna, what are you laughing at?


The fact that you perseverate despite the FACT that another Russian Jew on IF who actually LIVES in Israel NOW and has lived there for at least TEN YEARS tells me your Hebrew is quite lacking and that you reverse letters.

[Mediocrates]

Why marry Jewish? How else to have the most beautiful children?

[Annaliese]

Why marry Jewish? How else to have the most beautiful children?

:) :D :cool:

[physics]

Why marry Jewish? How else to have the most beautiful children?

There's one good reason. :cool: But will the kids be as beautiful if a Jewish woman marries a gentile? after all the kids will still be Jewish. :rolleyes:


The fact that you perseverate despite the FACT that another Russian Jew on IF who actually LIVES in Israel NOW and has lived there for at least TEN YEARS tells me your Hebrew is quite lacking and that you reverse letters.

Anna, this is not a grammar class, but a forum, and certainly not one about grammar. So please.

[Annaliese]

Anna, this is not a grammar class, but a forum, and certainly not one about grammar. So please.

* delete * ... it's just not worth it ...

[physics]

Well, I guess you ignore questions that you can't answer, such as the Russian drink analogy. Politely, I'll end the "languages & grammar" discussion. ;)

[Annaliese]

Well, I guess you ignore questions that you can't answer, such as the Russian drink analogy. Politely, I'll end the "languages & grammar" discussion. ;)

No need to guess, physics. I will spell it out for you:

it's just not worth it = you are not worth debating because you just won't stop with your versions of what you believe to be the truth. Also, get off my back already ... this is my final warning before I take further action.

[physics]

Also, get off my back already

Notice that I didn't even talk to you on this thread until you threw in your little irrelevant comments about spelling. Fine, I am off you back!

[minusthejihad]

Oh brother. More Jewish infighting. I'm sure the haters are loving it!

[Annaliese]

Oh brother. More Jewish infighting. I'm sure the haters are loving it!

I'm sorry, minus, however he has been following me all over the board long before this ... his lectures, his admonitions to "respect my authoritah!" have caused me (long before this) to request that he just put me on ignore as opposed to trolling me. Per his usual MO, however, he has continued to simply dismisses my POV in every way possible. I will not defer to this harrassment (especially considering the apparent double-standards here vis-a-vis others, but we won't go there now ...) any longer.

Deal with it, minus ... I have been trying to ever since this began ... and it began shortly after I arrived. Why in the world should I care what the haters think all the while someone who believes himself to be the ultimate authority on all things Jewish, Russian and Israeli ... especially since I am definitely the first, almost 100% the 2nd and definitely qualify to my birthright of return.

Would you rather I just put on a burkah and submit?

[minusthejihad]

I was speaking to everyone, not just you. Whether its Toga chasing me around for marrying a gentile, ShimonG telling everyone that they are a self-hating Jew, or me doing the same thing to SharonBN, its all the same. I'm not saying don't talk about it. Just don't flush it out in the open, take it to a private room or something. All families have problems, but it's the rednecks that have no problem chasing each other into the street so all the neighbors can see.

So sorry, rough day!

[physics]

Ya neznayu shto za problema u anne. Ya dazhe snei negavaru no ana seravno rugayetsa samnoy. Ya gavaru pra temu na forum a anna gavarit pra xuynu kak grammatiku. Ya ponal shto anna prosta ne chelavik dla mena. Uneyo net unvazheneyo dla ludey kto zhele ve israel y russia.

[physics]

I don't care what you think of me, but let me tell you that you know nothing about Israeli life no matter how much you talk about it or even visit the country. All you do is talk about Israeli politics, and that's not what life is all about.

You never talk about Israeli culture and daily life because you know nothing about it. Sorry, maybe when you'll live there for few years you'll get it.

[Turkishdude]

I thought most Jews today were not at all religious anyway?
On another forum, an Israeli forumer had told me that the overwhelming majority of Jews live like Europeans/Americans...

Are there any Jewish girls here who'd like to marry this "gentile" ?

Mira, where are you? :)

[physics]

You are correct, probably more than half of world's Jews are secular. Half of Israeli Jews are secular.

[Annaliese]

#87 and #88

Okay: that's it ... action escalating at this very time, i.e. as I am posting this.

[Turkishdude]

You are correct, probably more than half of world's Jews are secular. Half of Israeli Jews are secular.I got the impression that far more than half of Israel was secular.

[Toga]

I was speaking to everyone, not just you. Whether its Toga chasing me around for marrying a gentile, ShimonG telling everyone that they are a self-hating Jew, or me doing the same thing to SharonBN, its all the same. I'm not saying don't talk about it. Just don't flush it out in the open, take it to a private room or something. All families have problems, but it's the rednecks that have no problem chasing each other into the street so all the neighbors can see.

So sorry, rough day!

I am not chasing you. Everybody has a right to screw up his life. You have. You may not fully appreciate it now but you will. Please note, your actions don't affect me personally one bit. Just don't come here with your hollow justifications.

[Toga]

Ya neznayu shto za problema u anne. Ya dazhe snei negavaru no ana seravno rugayetsa samnoy. Ya gavaru pra temu na forum a anna gavarit pra xuynu kak grammatiku. Ya ponal shto anna prosta ne chelavik dla mena. Uneyo net unvazheneyo dla ludey kto zhele ve israel y russia.

Well, please grow up. You don't need to provoke her with some innuendos.

[physics]

Sorry, but my posts are true.Who are your favorite Israeli singers?athletes?entertainers? what's your favorite place to visit in Israel?did u ever celebrate any of Israel's federal holidays? did any of your close relatives serve in IDF?did any of your close friends tragically die in IDF service or terror?do you speak hebrew on daily basis? there are many more questions!

You can have any connection to Israel you want, but you better show me respect regarding the issue! I Finally hammered you,haven't I?

[Annaliese]

I Finally hammered you,haven't I?

You have no idea what is going on right now nor do you have any idea of what might take place as early as Monday, however, it is my distinct pleasure to continue to watch you hang yourself.

PS Don't even bother to try to twist this post in a pathetic attempt in your continuing pattern of behavior; I will not tip my hand ... :D

[Toga]

Sorry, but my posts are true.Who are your favorite Israeli singers?athletes?entertainers? what's your favorite place to visit in Israel?did u ever celebrate any of Israel's federal holidays? did any of your close relatives serve in IDF?did any of your close friends tragically die in IDF service or terror?do you speak hebrew on daily basis? there are many more questions!

You can have any connection to Israel you want, but you better show me respect regarding the issue! I Finally hammered you,haven't I?

Please note, without Judaism your love for Israel is not sustainable as most hobbies come and go.

[physics]

Please note, without Judaism your love for Israel is not sustainable as most hobbies come and go.

You are wrong. Israelis don't need Judaism to love Israel. Their love for Israel is not a hobby, it's their life. They don't need to be religious. Most Israelis are Jewish by Halakah so it doesn't matter, just as you said.

[physics]

IDF service isn't exactly a hobby. The deeply religious are exempt from service while the secular must serve. So who shows more love?

[Toga]

You are wrong. Israelis don't need Judaism to love Israel. Their love for Israel is not a hobby, it's their life. They don't need to be religious. Most Israelis are Jewish by Halakah so it doesn't matter, just as you said.

Please don't twist my words. I meant the Jews in the Diaspora.

[physics]

Please don't twist my words. I meant the Jews in the Diaspora.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was trying to point out the difference between Israeli culture and Diasproa Jew's culture. I was trying to say that Diaspora Jews can't possible fully understand Israel w/out living there for some time.

Anyone can like Israeli singers, athletes, etc. but it doesn't mean they know how it feels to live in the country.

[Labyu]

I got the impression that far more than half of Israel was secular.
That's a misrepresentation because Israeli terminology considers anyone who isn't wearing one of those rediculous "Blues Brothers" costumes and Davins every day as "secular".

Most Israelis I have met are what here in the USA we call HHDJs(High Holy Day Jews) who beleive but don't go overboard on the whole ritualistic Europeanized/Hellenized Judaism thing.

[Mediocrates]

What does that mean? What is observance then?

[Toga]

That's a misrepresentation because Israeli terminology considers andyone who isn't wearing one of those rediculous "Blues Brothers" constumes and Davins every day as "secular".

Most Israelis I have met are what here in the USA we call HHDJs(High Holy Day Jews) who beleive but don't go overboard on the whole ritualistic Europeanized/Hellenized Judaism thing.


So, Labyu, fess up. Did your kid/kids marry Jewish? Of course, not!

[Labyu]

So, Labyu, fess up. Did your kid/kids marry Jewish? Of course, not!

Actually Misha and Tzion are not old enough to marry yet but they seem to be very heavily indoctinated by the Jewish school I have sent them to and they are a little xenophobic of gentiles even though I am not?

Honestly though, I do maintain a Kosher household and don't make them privy to most of my views because I would not want to confuse them.

There is no adequate alternative since the Prushim basically displaced and destroyed all other forms of Jewish observance and practice due to being the only chartered form of Judaism that was acceptable in the post exilic Roman Empire!They have basically buried 2/3 of pre-exilic Jewish thought with their heavy handed anachronistic form of Europeanized Jewery.They try to continue this practice to this day by bullying Karaim,Mizrachim and Sephardim from far more ancient and athentic traditions than their own which is only a faint shadow of their former crimes against Zealots,Karaim,Sadducees,Essenes,etc. They did not win a popularity contest but were the only form of Judaism with outposts outside of Judea to flee to during the expulsion(except for the few Sadducees who had a school in Egypt) and used the exile as a way to seize absolute authority and in many cases promote ill will among their gentile hosts towards their idealogical competitors and even manage to get domestic laws made that forced consolidation of all issues pertaining to Jews into their power!!

I'm not saying that I would have been an Essene or Zealot but the idea that these guys are the only game in town and they made it that way by betraying their fellow Jewish brethren during a calamity engenders a little mistrust and resentment on my part.

[varian]

"...I'm not saying that I would have been an Essene or Zealot but the idea that these guys are the only game in town and they made it that way by betraying their fellow Jewish brethren during a calamity engenders a little mistrust and resentment on my part.

Are you Karaite? I have visited the web sites listed by YahChannah (Post #9), on the "Israel friendly sites" string, and find the sites very informative for this goy.

[varian]

"... (Post #9), ..."

Correction - Post #8.

[Toga]

Actually Misha and Tzion are not old enough to marry yet but they seem to be very heavily indoctinated by the Jewish school I have sent them to and they are a little xenophobic of gentiles even though I am not?

Honestly though, I do maintain a Kosher household and don't make them privy to most of my views because I would not want to confuse them.

Ahh..another meshugah Jew. He advocates bull to other Jews trying to confuse them with his "intelligent" garbage while he himself keeps a good Jewish household.

[Mediocrates]

Aren't you the one said you weren't shomer shabbos?

[Labyu]

Are you Karaite? I have visited the web sites listed by YahChannah (Post #9), on the "Israel friendly sites" string, and find the sites very informative for this goy.

No I am not Karaim but not because I have any particular bias against it but because most of the authentic Karaim I have met are Egyptian Sephardim and kind of clannish and the rest are just kind of "making it up as they go along" and that would be the same thing as the Ashkenazi traditions!

I am on a personal quest for the truth.I am not trying to find something that "suits me" but something authentic and without contrivance or outright falsehood.It seems the more I learn the more I realize that Judaism at one time or another contained all of the elements that most people leave Judaism for in the first place.

It's a little overwhelming to tackle this with my own limited intellect and resources but common sense and a desire for stronger connection with our ancestors won't allow me to accept the BS I have been fed my whole life without exception.

[Mediocrates]

Specifically what do you object to so much?

[Labyu]

Ahh..another meshugah Jew. He advocates bull to other Jews trying to confuse them with his "intelligent" garbage while he himself keeps a good Jewish household.

Oh come on,I can hardly be accused of double mindedness or despising the very tradition that spawned my own father but ignoring what I have learned and letting anachronistic ignorance dominate my interior landscape goes against everything I have ever read in Tanakh!!

My very interest in archaeology and history stemmed from a desire to relate to my ancestors not to overturn their applecart.The fact that when I dug deep(even literally on a few digs:))I didn't find the familiar Orthodox face that I was led to believe was a continuous chain of cultural descent but something far stranger and more ancient with a depth and variety we have been told is not even part of the observant Jewish experience!!

We wore Tzitzit before Moshe!

Hunting with a sling or bow as the favorite sport of ancient OBSERVANT Jews.

Patrilineal descent was the rule rather than the exception!

We were a proselyte religion and anyone who would become circumcised was encouraged and accepted.

We knealt on the ground when we prayed like during Aleinu in much the same way that Muslims do now(who do you think they copied it from?).

You could buy food from any source that did not keep trefah in their larder and it was considered kosher.

The Tallit Gadol was worn every waking moment in every season being worn around the waist during warm weather and was considered the sinle most important identifying tribal garment of a Jew and in earlier eras was even worn by women along with Tzitzit!!

A Tallit was a very intricately dyed and woven garment with many colorsand it too predates Moshe.

Tefillin were actually of a much different design and were worn regularly and their main function was as a set of portable, miniature Torah scrolls not some kind of ritual article.


All of these things were facts of our ancestors existence and daily lives yet are contraindicated by the "traditional" authorities today and if this was all I had discovered that disagreed with the tradition I might be able to just shrug it off but it's just the tip of the iceberg and if it's at all possible I would really like to find our what being a Jew meant in the time that Hashem was actually manifesting himself on a regular basis to our people and not this hollow play-acting we engage in today.

[Mediocrates]

How is that different playacting from this playacting. Do you have an unhewn altar? I don't.

[Labyu]

Specifically what do you object to so much?

I object to the fact that the Judaism we are offered today was invented by refugees in the Diaspora and has about as much of a connection to pre-exilic Judaism as a historical fiction novel has to an actual historical event.

I don't think the inventors of what we today call Judaism today meant any harm but they obviously were not aware of even the basics of Jewish life and thought outside of their limited,cloistered Prushim tradition and it shows.

Judaism is riddled with rules created only appease our oppressors and reeks of a fearful slave's mentality that has caused us to be persecuted by being misperceived as exclusionary and clannish.

My Great Grandfather was admonished for wanting to leave Poland and "do something different" but he is the only one of his family to survive the Shoah!!
I can only deduce that the way we were doing things in Poland(and all of Europe)was not only no protection from being singled out for persecution but might be the very cause of it!!!

When Jews were free and in their own land they were hardly the sort of people you could imagine rounding up in cattle cars and disposing of quietly.They would burn your houses down and steal your women for even suggesting such a thing ;)

[Labyu]

How is that different playacting from this playacting. Do you have an unhewn altar? I don't.

Emulation of a slave's fiction is playacting, emulation of the Patriarchs and our tribal leaders from holy antiquity is the authentic definition of being Yahudim!!

As far as unhewn altars go Eliyahu built one and Hashem blessed him but I don not yet have the courage :)

[Mediocrates]

I object to the fact that the Judaism we are offered today was invented by refugees in the Diaspora and has about as much of a connection to pre-exilic Judaism as a historical fiction novel has to an actual historical event.

Why is that important at all? Do you have a need to sacrifice animals and speak Aramaic?


I don't think the inventors of what we today call Judaism today meant any harm but they obviously were not aware of even the basics of Jewish life and thought outside of their limited,cloistered Prushim tradition and it shows.

Such as.......?


Judaism is riddled with rules created only appease our oppressors and reeks of a fearful slave's mentality that has caused us to be persecuted by being misperceived as exclusionary and clannish.


This of an affect of being a minority. Your plan wouldn't have changed that.


My Great Grandfather was admonished for wanting to leave Poland and "do something different" but he is the only one of his family to survive the Shoah!!


Good for him - what's wrong with that? My Grandparents came from Koidonov and Oscweiz and had the good sense to get out when they could.


I can only deduce that the way we were doing things in Poland(and all of Europe)was not only no protection from being singled out for persecution but might be the very cause of it!!!


Well historically the Jews of the Pale had a pretty good life being tax farmers for the Polish nobility. When the Cossacks and other nationalists rose up in 1664 and massacred everyone is when things went bad.

Moreover, ghetto laws were instituted all over Europe from 1450 to 1850 often to the very people who had, the day before enjoyed all sorts of prosperity and rights among their neighbors. The Cardinals and Popes were threatened by a Jewish Middle Class and began to lock them all away.

But what does any of this have to do with Diaspora Judaism?

[Mira]

Pure vaudeville.

[Labyu]

Pure vaudeville.

Yup,that's pretty much what Judaism has become :D

It costs money, it's staged and it's the butt of half the world's jokes..

[Mira]

Man, you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. You have acquired little pieces of information from the internet, maybe some books....wherever over the course of your life, but it's one big mess inside your head and you are vomiting it up on this board along with arm flailing theatrics.

I'm glad that you are on a personal quest for this "authentic Judaism," but try to incorporate a little humility into the process. Don't belittle other Jews, especially ones who eat, sleep and breathe Torah, who love that text with every breath of life in their lungs. If you think about it, your quest itself is probably going to be the most authentic Judaism that YOU are going to experience.

[Labyu]

Man, you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. You have acquired little pieces of information from the internet, maybe some books....wherever over the course of your life, but it's one big mess inside your head and you are vomiting it up on this board along with arm flailing theatrics.

I'm glad that you are on a personal quest for this "authentic Judaism," but try to incorporate a little humility into the process. Don't belittle other Jews, especially ones who eat, sleep and breathe Torah, who love that text with every breath of life in their lungs. If you think about it, your quest itself is probably going to be the most authentic Judaism that YOU are going to experience.

Let me guess you are a another post-exilic "Uber-Jew" who would like to believe in a quaint little "Fiddler on the Roof" postcard as your source of spiritual resolve and your Jewish identity is a mixture of stopping for Starbucks Coffe before going to volunteer for Hadassah all the while being married to a gentile or even worse some small,pale,gutless excuse for a Jew that has never turned a tap to upohold the virtues of his people or refute the insult and degredation made socially acceptable by centuries of submissiveness based in ignorance and cowardice?

If a "Walter Middy" Judaism farse that revolves around reading things you can't even understand in their historical context and playacting all the while fantasizing about how great our ancestors were while you live out compound errors of gutless slaves who have zilch in common with the heroes of the Torah then more power to you.

People like you make 2/3 of the world's Jews absolutely sick and embarrassed to be Jews in the first place. Spoon feeding them garbage and condescending to know something that is based on pure fantasy!!

The fact is when Hashem was actually with us Torah was a guide for action not an excuse for stagnation.

So next time you want to hurl baseless insults to reassure yourself that you are not irrevocably entrenched in folly remember that insults go both ways and that while mine are based in an honest indignation about being insulted by some Behema for seeking the truth yours are just an attempt at vaildating your own position so that you can remain comfortable in your stench of stagnation a laziness.

By the very act of being willing to ask the questions and accept whatever I learn as true whether I like it or not makes me twice the Jew you are because I serve the truth and you only serve yourself..


Why marry Jewish?
Maybe more people don't marry Jewish because they get a load of someone like Mira and head straight for the Shiksas rather than live out a horrible, brow beaten,existence with some bad tempered,knowitall,"Jew-Shrew"!!

I can't imagine any man with a brain in their head or an ounce of spine that would be willing to mate with a creature like that :D

[Mira]

lol! Again.....pure vaudeville. People who have been on this board for a long time are familiar enough with my posts on Judaism. But for the uninitiated, I suppose I'll state a little about my background. I grew up around frum Jews. I've studied Talmud-Torah with them. I understand their motivations and the sincerity of their devotion. I've also studied Jewish texts, history and philosophy at the graduate level with some of the best scholars in their areas, people who view Talmud as Jewish literature, people who spend their entire academic careers learning what there is to know about Judaism during the Second Temple era; the various sects, early Christianity and the Jewish response to the destruction of the Second Temple and exile. I currently live in an area of the US where there are as many if not more Jewish sects and interpretations of Judaism today than there were during the Second Temple period. :D

Judaism is a dynamic faith and we are a dynamic people. I adore Talmud-Torah and I think I have a good understanding of what our Torah Sages were trying to acheive; the questions they asked and how they posed them, their method of struggling wth text, their devotion to G-d and the events of their time. I understand that organized observant Judaism can be stifling too. We live in an age where you don't need to be stifled by an observant community. You are free to explore Judaism on your own terms. But how you define your own religiosity will depend on what you build your house on. Will it be a foundation of mushy matter, or will it be a solid foundation that respects Judaism as a dynamic force that has given sustinance to our people throughout the entirety of its evolution? People are able to and have spurned various components of Judaism and you are free to do it, but in picking and choosing what it is that you think is authentic Judaism, there are consequences in leaving out components that have been deemed integral for centuries.

In one class I took, someone asked why our Torah Sages engaged in what seems to be unnessary mental gymnastics in their halachic debates. It's an open question. My professor said that perhaps what they were trying to do is preserve every argument, irrespective of whether that argument failed, no matter how seemingly irrelevant, because they knew that the future of Judaism hung in the balance and after the destruction, what was left for us to rebuild with were these words. How much responsability is there in determining what to include and what to exclude? Who is willing to take that kind of responsability and be accountable to future generations? What is authentic Judaism? To me, it is everything we Jews undertake in the name of our people, in respresenting our past to defining our future.

[Muslima]

Man, you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. You have acquired little pieces of information from the internet, maybe some books....wherever over the course of your life, but it's one big mess inside your head and you are vomiting it up on this board along with arm flailing theatrics.

I'm glad that you are on a personal quest for this "authentic Judaism," but try to incorporate a little humility into the process. Don't belittle other Jews, especially ones who eat, sleep and breathe Torah, who love that text with every breath of life in their lungs. If you think about it, your quest itself is probably going to be the most authentic Judaism that YOU are going to experience.

Very well said Mira, Labyu is one confused guy,

Labyu, i havn't got time to or i'd wipe the floor clean with your nonsense about Arab's not being descendents of Abraham, you can delude and lie all you want, but you can't change historical facts into your weird science fiction wet dreams. You don't even know your own religion very well, but i'll leave others to sort you out for that,

We didn't copy anything from you (method's of prayer) we were given the law by God via the Prophet, who is a descendent of Ishmael, (who was blessed by God) son of Abraham who settled in Mecca. Even if you don't believe in the Quran being divine, this is in the Torah too. Ishmael was promised a great nation in YOUR book by YOUR God. That came to pass via the Prophet who gave us the laws for the Caliphate.
If we copied from you, you'd have to explain how the prophecies The Prophet gave us are coming true one by one. Anyhow, i don't want to go into that here, what i do want to go into is this:

You said only genes determine who has the right to what land, ie. Jews who are descendent's of Isaac are the true heirs to Israel.

So according to your logic, all Israeli's should undergo a gene test, ( i don't know what gene exactly, maybe you can explain) to see if they are the true descendents...........and only then are they eligilbe for being Israeli's.

How then do you class all converts to Judaism over the centuries? Did you knw that Judaism used to proselytise quite successfully until Christianity forced them to stop. 10% of the Roman empire converted to Judaism.

What about Jews who intermarried? What about Jews who converted to other faiths?

Explain your logic please.

[Mediocrates]

I'm Lubavitch, so is/was Mira. I was on the Education Board of my shul. My spouse is a full time Hebrew and Jewish Studies teacher. Does that count?

[Labyu]

l What is authentic Judaism? To me, it is everything we Jews undertake in the name of our people, in respresenting our past to defining our future.

Then how in the hell do you have the gall to critique anything that I have asserted?

If you are so well versed then why have you not addressed a single piece of historical information I have mentioned?

All you seem to be able to do is bang out the same spiel over and over again,did you actually finish a dissertation that underwent peer review?If so then you must have the ability to at least attempt a refutation but instead you seek to minimize and make inferences that you "know better" without even addressing the material?

The fact that you have studied these subjects at a graduate level and "name dropping" and "laurel flashing" are the best you can manage then it just goes to prove that intellect is not always comensurate with intelligence.

If someone wanted to ask questions and make assertions about my discipline I would be obliged to "lock horns" with their data and at least "explain away" their objections but that seems a little beyond your capacity.

Maybe you should go back to school or take some Ginko Biloba because 2 years at the Highland Park IL Chabad and a semester of Fertile Crescent Archaeology has at least left me with the ability to formulate an original response and the ability to play "Stump The Rabbi" on Askmoses.com on a regualr basis but you just sit there and sputter the same old regurgitated propaganda that you neither conceived of nor attempted to substantiate when faced
with assertions to the contrary;)

[Mira]

Labyu,

Anyone who wants, including yourself, can go back through the course of this thread and see the debate we had about patrilineal descent. I was the one who insisted that if we conduct the debate, that it be done through referencing the Tanach. Every cite and every example you offered (and I'll point out that you kept going back and altering your examples without telling me and I had to keep scrolling back to see what you added or changed) I countered. You offered one interesting post that explained a liberalization that occured within Judaism during the Second Temple because of the large number of married gentile women who wanted to convert, but whose husbands refused to undergo the conversion process. Neither that post or anything you offered otherwise that we debated backs your repeated claims that Jewishness has always been defined throughout history via the father. It's not an argument that I am willing to rehash over and over on this board. Simply scroll back and re-read what was posted. If you have something new to add, then post that. One more thing....I am impervious to your theatrics.

[Labyu]

Labyu, i havn't got time to or i'd wipe the floor clean with your nonsense about Arab's not being descendents of Abraham,

All you can quote is a bunch of erroneous Islamic propaganda created expressly for the purpose of promoting Islamic replacment theology.

Your source material is not acceptable to anyone in the world but you and your coreligionists so how can you "wipe the floor" with anyone?

Go smoke some hash and take a nap Muslima, jumping on Mira's bandwagon is bad form and makes you look like an opportunist who is desperately clutching at straws to bolster support for their obviously slanted opinion.

If there was a single piece secularly accepted evidence that backed your mind numbingly circular logic and jingositic Islamic spewing I would convert to Islam this very minute!!!

I have the advantage of having no axe to grind and being a lover of the truth,you on the other hand live in a "house of cards" that is hinged upon beilef in things that are just not provable and most likely not even remotely based in reality.Islam did not exist before Mohammad,The Arabian penninsula was totally pagan during almost all of the biblical epic and they had never heard of Abraham until they encountered Jews who settled there as merchants in LATE Jewish history.

when I was a kid a book was written that inferred that modern Jews were not in any way (other than religion) related to the principal figures in the Tanakh. I was ready to accept that as fact if that theory proved true but it has since been disproved by modern genetics.I didn't like the idea,I didn't want it to be true but I believe in the G_d of the Torah enough to follow the truth to whatever conclusion because he instructs us to do so throughout the Torah.

So please,by all means let the floor wiping begin but don't use rediculous circular arguments from your own religion's "propaganda mill" or try to gain credibility for your arguments by trying to garner support among others who still have not managed to refute anything I've said on a COMPLETLY UNRELATED SUBJECT to yours.

[Labyu]

Neither that post or anything you offered otherwise that we debated backs your repeated claims that Jewishness has always been defined throughout history via the father.


So the fact that almost all Ashkenazim have gentile mtDNA from European mothers or that several key figures in Tanakh have apperently unconverted gentile mothers as well didn't even cause you to raise an eyebrow?

Looks like Muslima hasn't cornered the market on self-substantive circular logic/propaganda:D

[Mira]

I have the advantage of having no axe to grind and being a lover of the truth,you on the other hand live in a "house of cards" that is hinged upon beilef in things that are just not provable and most likely not even remotely based in reality.

Ha ha ha........are you also Agnostic or do you believe in that crazy concept called "G-d" that we Jews have been told about from generation to generation via a wacky oral history involving some isolated desert wilderness, a guy named Moses and some other stuff. :D

[Mira]

So the fact that almost all Ashkenazim have gentile mtDNA from European mothers or that several key figures in Tanakh have apperently unconverted gentile mothers as well didn't even cause you to raise an eyebrow?

Looks like Muslima hasn't cornered the market on self-substantive circular logic/propaganda:D


Like I said, unless you have anything new to add, don't bother. Please re-read the discussion, and this time if you are going to change old posts, let me know.

[Labyu]

Like I said, unless you have anything new to add, don't bother. Please re-read the discussion, and this time if you are going to change old posts, let me know.

That's still just an attempt to cast a dubious spectre on my assertions and in no way addresses anything I have said.So,if you don't like the message kill the messenger?

I have typed,cut and pasted fast and furious in many areas of this thread and the one preceeding it but any corrections I have made have been to clarify and assure that my thoughts are clearly represented and not errors that do not represent my initial thoughts.Inferring that I have in some way changed my opinion or that I have intentionally written something I did not want quoted at a later date is totally fallacious.

If this post were not so short I would probably end up editing it as well but your lack of refutation and smug attempts at discrediting the petitioner rather than addressing the petition reeks of deceitfulness and casts a shadow on everything you say making any further waste of my time as far as interacting with you,useless.

[Mira]

That's still just an attempt to cast a dubious spectre on my assertions and in no way addresses anything I have said.So,if you don't like the message kill the messenger?

I have typed,cut and pasted fast and furious in many areas of this thread and the one preceeding it but any corrections I have made have been to clarify and assure that my thoughts are clearly represented and not errors that do not represent my initial thoughts.Inferring that I have in some way changed my opinion or that I have intentionally written something I did not want quoted at a later date is totally fallacious.

If this post were not so short I would probably end up editing it as well but your lack of refutation and smug attempts at discrediting the petitioner rather than addressing the petition reeks of deceitfulness and casts a shadow on everything you say making any further waste of my time as far as interacting with you,useless.

So we are done then? Thanks.

[Muslima]

If there was a single piece secularly accepted evidence that backed your mind numbingly circular logic and jingositic Islamic spewing I would convert to Islam this very minute!!!


So please,by all means let the floor wiping begin but don't use rediculous circular arguments from your own religion's "propaganda mill" or try to gain credibility for your arguments by trying to garner support among others who still have not managed to refute anything I've said on a COMPLETLY UNRELATED SUBJECT to yours.

Stop flattering yourself, i would not want someone as confused as you to join our Ummah. We have enough problems at this moment in history without "people" like you coming in. Stay away and good riddance. Oh and i can't resist bragging, we have plenty of converts swelling our numbers, (just like God said they would:)
Islam attracts highest numbers of converts worldwide
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=169523&postcount=8


You didn't address any of my points, and just repeated your wet dreams. I am not in the least bit interested in what you think about Arab's "adopting" Abraham, the truth is out there, very well documented for anyone interested in it.

I've noticed you spewing post after post about "genes". What is this obsession you have with genes?

It is obvious to anyone reading your posts, that you have a concocted formula in your mind , for what "genes" a Jew should have. According to your logic, only those Jews with these "genes" are true Jews.


Can you give clear answers to the following please

1. Are Jews who converted to Judaism, not Jews in your opinion? I would say majority Jews today are converts who came in and joined your faith.

2. What about Jews who converted to other faiths? Do you still think they are Jews even though they don't consider themselves so?

3. Which gene tests should Jews have to pass in order to be classed as Jews, and how is it to be determined. Can you name a formula please. A chemical formula will be fine.

4. If after genetic testing, they failed this test, what would you name them? Fake Jews?
False Gene Jews? Faulty Gene Jews?
Clear explanation please.

[Mira]

Stop flattering yourself, i would not want someone as confused as you to join our Ummah. We have enough problems at this moment in history without "people" like you coming in. Stay away and good riddance. Oh and i can't resist bragging, we have plenty of converts swelling our numbers, (just like God said they would:)
Islam attracts highest numbers of converts worldwide
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=169523&postcount=8


Oh come on, Muslima. I'll give you Labyu and I'll throw in Kettlewhistle and Woody Allen in exchange for andak. That's three for one! It's a good deal.

[Mira]

I was on the Education Board of my shul. My spouse is a full time Hebrew and Jewish Studies teacher. Does that count?

That's awesome, Medio! Please contribute to the Jewish Literacy thread. Also, I would like to hear more about you and your wife's activities sometime in PM.

[redcake]

Not to interupt the creepy contest, but Jews are defined by their connection of beliefs, and ancestral tradition. It's fine to have an opinion based on your own personal ideology, or interpretations - and I definetly have mine - but what I read here just sounds stubborn and disconnected from reality. There is no rebellion in Judaism, either you belong to a tradition, and believe in it, or you don't. You do what you feel comfortable with, and what resonates as Judaism. Why marry a Jew? Because our people are becoming extinct. What constitutes marrying a Jew? That's between you, your significant other, and your Rabbi. When the question turns into "how do I know if I'm marrying Jewish, how can that be sure?" then, like I said, it's personal, depending on how you were brought up, or brought into being a Jew. Wether it's saying Sh'ma or whatever, there will always be a connection between any sect, tribe, or Jewish family.

[Mira]

Not to interupt the creepy contest, but Jews are defined by their connection of beliefs, and ancestral tradition. It's fine to have an opinion based on your own personal ideology, or interpretations - and I definetly have mine - but what I read here just sounds stubborn and disconnected from reality. There is no rebellion in Judaism, either you belong to a tradition, and believe in it, or you don't. You do what you feel comfortable with, and what resonates as Judaism. Why marry a Jew? Because our people are becoming extinct. What constitutes marrying a Jew? That's between you, your significant other, and your Rabbi. When the question turns into "how do I know if I'm marrying Jewish, how can that be sure?" then, like I said, it's personal, depending on how you were brought up, or brought into being a Jew. Wether it's saying Sh'ma or whatever, there will always be a connection between any sect, tribe, or Jewish family.Wow! I feel like the little kid who got her hair pulled by her older brother for sticking up for our little sister and now mom has punished all of us.

[Muslima]

Oh come on, Muslima. I'll give you Labyu and I'll throw in Kettlewhistle and Woody Allen in exchange for andak. That's three for one! It's a good deal.

Mira, you want to get rid of your chaff eh? lol ;) I've met Woody Allen, by the way.

I'm curious to hear how Labyu responds to my "gene" questions, as it will expose his fixation for the gigantic fraud it is. It would mean that unless you have a certain genetic formula, (which i'd also like to hear) you have no right to be in Israel.


Good deal? duhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you sure won't make a good businesswoman:)

[Toga]

Mira, you want to get rid of your chaff eh? lol ;) I've met Woody Allen, by the way.

I'm curious to hear how Labyu responds to my "gene" questions, as it will expose his fixation for the gigantic fraud it is. It would mean that unless you have a certain genetic formula, (which i'd also like to hear) you have no right to be in Israel.


Good deal? duhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you sure won't make a good businesswoman:)


Muslima, can you please tell us why the Arab world is tyrannical, backward, corrupt and violent?

[Muslima]

Muslima, can you please tell us why the Arab world is tyrannical, backward, corrupt and violent?


Oh Toga, why do you only see the bad things about the Arab world?

Let other nations and peoples be at the forefront, take the accolades, lead the way. We have been there and done that.

All i can say is that it's only fair to let other's take the bows and graces, ( we built the most spectacular emipre in history) how about that? That's Arab hospitality for you:)

Don't worry about us, we'll be back in full glory:)

[serdar]

Muslima, can you please tell us why the Arab world is tyrannical, backward, corrupt and violent?i'm wondering same thing for America as well

[varian]

i'm wondering same thing for America as well
Correction! The US government is tyrannical, corrupt, and violent. Backwards went out with the industrial revolution.

[SteveMetch]

Oh Toga, why do you only see the bad things about the Arab world?

Let other nations and peoples be at the forefront, take the accolades, lead the way. We have been there and done that.

All i can say is that it's only fair to let other's take the bows and graces, ( we built the most spectacular emipre in history) how about that? That's Arab hospitality for you:)

Don't worry about us, we'll be back in full glory:)

I think you mean parasitic not spectacular.

Funny thing about the Glorious Muslim Empire it occurred right after they had murder millions and looted India. Even today the “2nd Glory” of Islamic civilization is parasitic. The Stone Age didn’t end because we ran out of stone. Oil will gradually be priced out of the energy market. Without Oil Muslims would be the most pathetic of all civilizations on the face of the Earth.

Muslim’s don’t need their natural resources because they are so poor at developing their human resources starting with their second class citizens otherwise known as women. Of course the world has little use for the Koranic memorizing zombies as well.

Islam (to submit) is a cultural disease of mankind. The cure is freedom.

There is no middle ground between forced submission and freedom.


On another topic;

What would you say would be the typical Muslims response to Infidels taking Mecca and making it off limits to Muslims? Or better yet replacing the Kaba with a memorial to all the victims of Islam throughout its bloody history.

Allah would have to be asleep at the wheel to let that happen don’t you think? Why would an all powerful Allah preordain this to happen?

Now that would be Glorious.

[Mediocrates]

None of this has to do with anything.

[SteveMetch]

None of this has to do with anything.

Tell me, are you just a useful idiot for those who would murder and enslave Non-Muslums wholesale or just a slow learner.

And back to topic, yes some of those girls would be worth converting to Judaism for.

[Labyu]

Tell me, are you just a useful idiot for those who would murder and enslave Non-Muslums wholesale or just a slow learner.

And back to topic, yes some of those girls would be worth converting to Judaism for.


Calm down pardner!!

Medio is not any kind of apologist and can see through their rubbish better than most people!!

He's just asking what these unrelated posts have to do with why a Jew should marry a Jew or not.

It's easy to let opinion mongering Muslim propagandists draw you off topic but if you really want to get their goat just drop a little truth on them and then rebuff their attempts at changing the subject.

It drives them so crazy they will try to restart their dead arguments in another totally unrelated thread :D


Back to the topic:Have you ever seriously considered conversion to Judaism because of a woman and if so why was the idea that you convert so important?

[Toga]

None of this has to do with anything.


Let us play with Muslima a bit. We need to have some fun. I like her because she is funny. She is trying to defend the indefensible and it ain't easy for her. Poor woman. She brings up the Islamic accomplishments of the past. She reminds me of a homeless woman or man who is delirious enough to claim that hers/his ancestors were some aristocratic landowners. She thinks it matters!

[Muslima]

Calm down pardner!!

Medio is not any kind of apologist and can see through their rubbish better than most people!!

He's just asking what these unrelated posts have to do with why a Jew should marry a Jew or not.

It's easy to let opinion mongering Muslim propagandists draw you off topic but if you really want to get their goat just drop a little truth on them and then rebuff their attempts at changing the subject.

It drives them so crazy they will try to restart their dead arguments in another totally unrelated thread :D


Back to the topic:Have you ever seriously considered conversion to Judaism because of a woman and if so why was the idea that you convert so important?

Sorry, but i'm not trying to draw anyone off topic, Labyu. That is what you do. I think Mira sussed you out, you're atheist aren't you? lol

You still havn't answered the questions without which it is difficult to figure out where you are coming from:


1. Are Jews who converted to Judaism, not Jews in your opinion sinc they don't have the "gene" ? I would say majority Jews today are converts who came in and joined your faith.

2. What about Jews who converted to other faiths? Since they carry this "gene" you're fixated on, they have the right to Israel then even tho they may be following other religions now?

3. Which "gene" tests should Jews have to pass in order to be classed as Jews, and how is it to be determined. Can you name a formula please. A chemical formula will be fine.

4. If after genetic testing, they failed this test, what would you name them? Fake Jews?
False Gene Jews? Faulty Gene Jews?
Clear explanation please.

[Labyu]

You were were thouroughly answered on the original thread but like most Muslims you are not beyond a little hijacking(even of threads)!!;)


You have absolutley no business discussing the marriage practices of Jews or pretending kinship with those who your own idiotic Hadith says "that the very stones and trees will give up to be slain by you good servants of Allah"


Here's your answer
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=1301&page=2
Go back to your own thread you retarded troll!!


Here's an excerpt that addresses you here in this totally unrelated thread even though you hardly deserve to be addressed at all :D

Converts are absorbed in a few generations and their offspring pickup Abarahamic blood eventually but that is an aside.Most of the converts I know are better Jews than I am but this isn't about exluding one Jew from another it's about debunking lies spread by our enemies either to harms us or promote themselves to our detriment.

A.Muslims erroneously assert that they are the true descendents of Abraham and of the eldest of his offspring thereby giving them the right to Replace Jews

B.White Supremacists assert that we aren't even really Jews and that all of the characters in the Bible are really white Europeans!!

Both of these assertions are Replacement Theology!!



Genetics disproves both equally preposterous mythologies but is in no way a legitimate dividing line between different populations of Jews.

We are a family and we love our adopted children as much as our own and so does Hashem:)

If Muhammad had learned to read he could have stood before the Beit Din and wouldn't have gone off in a huff to fabricate all of this Islamic Replacement Theology Nonsense and world would have been much better off for it.

[Muslima]

You were were thouroughly answered on the original thread but like most Muslims you are not beyond a little hijacking(even of threads)!!;)


You have absolutley no business discussing the marriage practices of Jews or pretending kinship with those who your own idiotic Hadith says "that the very stones and trees will give up to be slain by you good servants of Allah"


Here's your answer
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=1301&page=2
Go back to your own thread you retarded troll!!

Labyu, when you can't explain your points you resort to name calling. What does that hadith have to do with this subject? Your stupid attempt to throw attention is pathetic.


only 2 paragraph's of yours in that thread there were relevant to this subject:



"Genetics is not central to being a Jew but it is central to proving indigenous origin to Israel(despite Islamic and Neo-Nazi lies to the contrary)and it is central to proving that Arabs are in no way related to the Legitimate Offspring of Abraham!!!



Converts are absorbed in a few generations and their offspring pickup Abarahamic blood eventually but that is an aside.Most of the converts I know are better Jews than I am but this isn't about exluding one Jews from another it's about debunking lies spread by our enemies either to harms us or promote themselves to our detriment. "!!

You're out of touch with reality.

Genetics has nothing to do with Islamic ties to the land. This is a misconception in your mind. "Indigineous rights to the land" means nothing to an Arab. Throughout history, the rights of land have been by military conquest only. Nobody has genes that ties them to a land. Therefore your whole reasoning is flawed and total hogwash.

That's why you can't answer the 4 questions.

Even your response to the first question, saying Jews eventually pick up the "gene" is flawed. What about converts only marrying converts? how would they pick up the "gene"?

Oh and don't bother replying to this post unless you have clear answers, numbered, and to the point. Is that clear O confused one?

[Labyu]

What does that hadith have to do with this subject? Your stupid attempt to throw attention is pathetic.

1.The words of Mohammad are always important when dealing with Muslims because it uncovers the truest motivations of the speaker regardless of whatever ruse they attempt.

2.The imortance of Jewish genetics is hardly "Hogwash" as it is a total invalidation of both Christian and Islamic Replacement Theology upon which most of the curiously illogical arguments of the proponents of anti-Jewish sentiment predicate their insanity.

3.Again,for the 3rd or 4th time Jewish genetics do no validate or invalidate Jewishness but they certain detail what total fallacy Islamic Replacement Theology

4.Jews are not a culture,Jews are not an "Ummah",Jews are not an "ism",Jews are not a club,Jews are not even a religion.We are a family and we love the adopted children as much as the natural born.The majority of the world's Muslims are neither despite their assertions to the contrary.

5.Pathetic is hijacking a totally unrelated thread because you got your panties in a bunch and don't have the deportment or civility to keep it within the original thread and want to ruin what was an interesting and lively thread about Jewish Marriages.

6.This is the same irrational behaviour Muslims are demonstrating on 4 continents this very minute,you could be an ambassador for your people but instead you you get your panties in a bunch and troll other threads looking for allies when the consensus in the originating thread is that you are a troll:D

7.Jewish people who were tricked/bullied/bribed into Islam over the centuries are an unfortunate aside but Hashem commanded us to buy our brothers out of bondage.There are a few Muslims who may fall into this category and
it would be a Mitzvah to deprogram them and bring them back into the family of believing Jews but otherwise no Muslim has any business in Judea and Samaria as any kind of authority or demand and special priveledges.Jewish Genetic Research might show some special insight into this.

[Muslima]

1.The words of Mohammad are always important when dealing with Muslims because it uncovers the truest motivations of the speaker regardless of whatever ruse they attempt.

2.The imortance of Jewish genetics is hardly "Hogwash" as it is a total invalidation of both Christian and Islamic Replacement Theology upon which most of the curiously illogical arguments of the proponents of anti-Jewish sentiment predicate their insanity.

3.Again,for the 3rd or 4th time Jewish genetics do no validate or invalidate Jewishness but they certain detail what total fallacy Islamic Replacement Theology

4.Jews are not a culture,Jews are not an "Ummah",Jews are not an "ism",Jews are not a club,Jews are not even a religion.We are a family and we love the adopted children as much as the natural born.The majority of the world's Muslims are neither despite their assertions to the contrary.

5.Pathetic is hijacking a totally unrelated thread because you got your panties in a bunch and don't have the deportment or civility to keep it within the original thread and want to ruin what was an interesting and lively thread about Jewish Marriages.

6.This is the same irrational behaviour Muslims are demonstrating on 4 continents this very minute,you could be an ambassador for your people but instead you you get your panties in a bunch and troll other threads looking for allies when the consensus in the originating thread is that you are a troll:D

7.Jewish people who were tricked/bullied/bribed into Islam over the centuries are an unfortunate aside but Hashem commanded us to buy our brothers out of bondage.There are a few Muslims who may fall into this category and
it would be a Mitzvah to deprogram them and bring them back into the family of believing Jews but otherwise no Muslim has any business in Judea and Samaria as any kind of authority or demand and special priveledges.Jewish Genetic Research might show some special insight into this.

Too many contradictions in your post Labyu, and you finally proved your confusion.

If Jewish genetics do no validate or invalidate Jewishness then your obsession on this topic is bizarre. It is meaningless.

I just told you that genetics mean nothing to us, and you come back and repeat the same nonsense. Jewish genetics would only expose "total fallacy of Islamic replacement theology" if genetics were important.

I can't speak for Christians but i'm sure it doesn't mean anything to them either. Their problem with Judaism had nothing to do with genes either, but in a belief that Jews were responsible for the crucifixion, or so they were led to believe.

And you lying about history and distorting facts about Abraham does not make it a fact, no matter how desperate you may be to believe you own cooked up fantasies. You can continue to believe that, but if you really did, you would not shove it down my throat at every opportunity, for it matters not what some deluded soul thinks. What matters is what is out there, the reality, the truth, the facts.

I notice you can't say anything without bringing up The Prophet, or "replacement theology" and all the other complexes that you suffer from.

You have turned your obsessions into something that even you dont' understand and i have no desire to continue this BS with you. You can't answer specific points, you evade the issue, and then resort to insults and name calling.


Dismissed!

[Labyu]

Dismissed!


Blah,blah blah!!

Do you actaully have anything to comment about Jewish marital selectivity?

If not then you my dear raving lunatic are the one who is Dismissed

[Reffo]

Don't worry about us, we'll be back in full gloryThat's an interesting statement Muslima. I would really appreciate your clarification please: "Back" where? And what's your vision of "full glory"?

[Toga]

That's an interesting statement Muslima. I would really appreciate your clarification please: "Back" where? And what's your vision of "full glory"?

Do the 72 virgins come to mind?

[physics]

I think that Israel is the best location for Jews to marry.(Ignoring The Orthodox Rules For Now.)

Israel has a diverse population of Jews from all over the world. For the Jews that want a partner and kids that look different from themselves, Israel is ideal, because the partner and kids will still be Jewish. Marriage in Israel isn't confined to same group marriages, such as Ashkenazi-Ashkenazi. Anf of course, the Israeli culture is a great bond.

In America, if a Jew wants to marry a partner that's culturally different and looks different, chances are partner is not Jewish.

[Toga]

I think that Israel is the best location for Jews to marry.(Ignoring The Orthodox Rules For Now.)

Israel has a diverse population of Jews from all over the world. For the Jews that want a partner and kids that look different from themselves, Israel is ideal, because the partner and kids will still be Jewish. Marriage in Israel isn't confined to same group marriages, such as Ashkenazi-Ashkenazi. Anf of course, the Israeli culture is a great bond.

In America, if a Jew wants to marry a partner that's culturally different and looks different, chances are partner is not Jewish.

What is wrong with you? Don't you like yourself?

[physics]

What is wrong with you? Don't you like yourself?

You missed the point. Ah, Toga, you are still critical even though I am talking about marrying Jewish. Have you ever considered personal preference of others?

An example is, if an Ashkenazi Jew is attracted to a dark skinned girl who speaks french, he doesn't have to marry a gentile, he can still marry Jewish, and Israel is the best location for such.

[physics]

I am trying to point out that Israelis are a diverse group of people, yet it's cool that they are all Jewish.

Also, do you frown upon Ashkenazi-Sephardi marriage? because I don't. I see no problem.

[Toga]

I am trying to point out that Israelis are a diverse group of people, yet it's cool that they are all Jewish.

Also, do you frown upon Ashkenazi-Sephardi marriage? because I don't. I see no problem.

I agree 100%. If the woman is Jewish it does not matter if she is Sephardic, Ethiopian, Ashkenazi or Mizrahi. I was just point out that it is also fine to marry somebody like you, same background, culture, etc.

[physics]

Well, I am glad we are on the same page. As long as partner is Jewish, it's cool.
Yes, it's good to marry someone similar to you, but people have different tastes.

[Justcurious]

Muslima, can you please tell us why the Arab world is tyrannical, backward, corrupt and violent?

Sorry to intrude, but there are statistcs.

This is not perhaps the best one, but you may find the exact statistics here: http://e.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=29126

[tzanchan]

אמריקקה טיפש
שוטה מילר לייט
חוזר הביתה בקופסא


if you want to write in foreign languages, you should at least learn how to spell the word 'to drink' which is with a taf, not a tet....

[Kev]

Hmmmm.............quite the topic :)

I am quite perplexed with this conversion "thing", speaking as a non Jewish female.
On one hand I agree with what is being said, that the child must be borne to a Jewish mother, with a conversion if she wasn't Jewish. On the other hand, I don't see a conversion capable of making you something you are not!

I was asked to convert in my 20's for marriage. We began the process at a reform temple, but it all seemed so silly to me, like an assembly line.
Granted, in my case, we knew ahead of time it was unlikely that we could have children and this was the determining factor when we both decided that I identified myself as a secular person and although I hadn't ever attended an Anglican church, there wasn't anything that could be done to make me feel Jewish. Although I have spent all of my life with Jews, lovers, husband, friends........I am simply, not Jewish!

Now, had I had children, I may have continued. Likely more so because it was expected of me, but now as I am older, I am glad I didn't follow it though.
I would have however, made it a point to learn all of the customs, as much as anyone else, given the children as much of a education to their heritage as the next, then allowed them to choose at a later date, which way they wanted to go.

If conversion couldn't make me "feel" like a Jew, for again, as I said, I am not nor ever can be.......I don't feel it would have made the outcome different, if I had a piece of paper saying that I was, but didn't feel it spiritually, then if in the eyes of my children I was a Jew.

I had to give this a lot of thought and have done more so since. My close friends run the spectrum from Reform-Conservative to "Modern" Orthodox and it is constantly said to me, that I am more "Jewish" than many Jews they know, although said with respect.
No matter how many might say so..........again I am not a Jew, nor feel conversion ever would have made me one!

So, as I get older ( mid 40's) I can now appreciate, especially as a non Jew, the need for children to be born of a Jewish mother!

I have a few friends who have children from non Jewish mothers, and I see a common problem over and over.
The children grow up "looking" Jewish--------have Jewish surnames, yet aren't Jews, live half of their lives as Jews, the other half not....but are now prone to suffering the same anti-Semitism others do, and I don't really feel it is all that fair to the child to place them in a mid way zone...

Perhaps it is not expected for a non Jewish female....one who has also not had any religious training of their own "faith" to suggest this, but I have to say I'm weary of most converts :)

I suppose all I am trying to say, is that if it is confusing for me-----being part of a world I am accepted within fully but always understand there is one defining feature that keeps me apart, I cant imagine how it must be for young children to grow up in this manner!

[Labyu]

Maybe a person either has a Jewish soul or they don't.Not to say that you wouldn't make an excellent addition to "the family" but I have friends who converted for spriritual and idealogical reasons and they seemed to have a sense of Jewishness already extant within them prior to conversion.

Don't feel badly about it,there were thousands of Gentile women married to ancient Israelites who probably never felt like Jews either but they were a great benefit to our history and culture in many instances and even became the progenitors of many of our greatest heroes and leaders.

Then again maybe getting in touch with the anthopological side of Jewish studies might make it seem a little less commercial and fabricated.I don't feel very connected right now because my kid is pestering me to pay extra fees to the synagogue gaurantee seats for Purim and somehow that just doesn't feel right to me.

[Mira]

Hi Kev! I hope you're doing well. Thanks for your post. Every single secular Jew I know (in the United States) is in a serious relationship with someone who isn't Jewish. Seriously...every one! And while their partners are strong advocates for Israel and in terms of Jewish education, know just about as much as the Jew they are dating in many cases, I don't think they will convert for the same reasons you state. If you don't believe yourself to be a Jew, then conversion is strange and wrong. I agree with you that the issue only becomes difficult when children are involved, and from what I have seen, usually the children are raised as humanists with neither Christian or Jewish teachings and then they grow up and depending on who they marry, determines whether the "Jewishness" fades out. Maybe if we were a more numerous people or if we proselytized, then it wouldn't matter as much. That's why I am in favor of the Rerform movement's practice of allowing children to be considered Jewish if either parent is a Jew, even though it creates some complications with other branches that don't recognize that practice. If and when the child grows up and depending on their convictions, these things can be worked out.

[Labyu]

Hi Kev! I hope you're doing well. Thanks for your post. Every single secular Jew I know (in the United States) is in a serious relationship with someone who isn't Jewish. Seriously...every one! And while their partners are strong advocates for Israel and in terms of Jewish education, know just about as much as the Jew they are dating in many cases, I don't think they will convert for the same reasons you state. If you don't believe yourself to be a Jew, then conversion is strange and wrong. I agree with you that the issue only becomes difficult when children are involved, and from what I have seen, usually the children are raised as humanists with neither Christian or Jewish teachings and then they grow up and depending on who they marry, determines whether the "Jewishness" fades out. Maybe if we were a more numerous people or if we proselytized, then it wouldn't matter as much. That's why I am in favor of the Rerform movement's practice of allowing children to be considered Jewish if either parent is a Jew, even though it creates some complications with other branches that don't recognize that practice. If and when the child grows up and depending on their convictions, these things can be worked out.


Oh my gosh!! I actually agree with you!!

Great Post Mira:)

[minusthejihad]

Hey Kev! Welcome back!

[Kev]

Hi Mira, Hi MTJ...and the rest ;-)


Mira, that was interesting.
That's why I am in favor of the Rerform movement's practice of allowing children to be considered Jewish if either parent is a Jew, even though it creates some complications with other branches that don't recognize that practice

This is in practise today???
I havent ever heard of this before, but if so, I would tend to agree!

MTJ:
Matisyahu

Luv that guy.
Apparently I missed a show he did up here in T'Oh this past summer!
Hope he comes this way again!!!

[minusthejihad]

Luv that guy.
Apparently I missed a show he did up here in T'Oh this past summer!
Hope he comes this way again!!!

You think you missed him???? A few minutes ago I logged into his forum and found a private message from a guy who had tickets to the sold-out Chicago show that I specifically drove to see. So, I missed the show and then found out someone was saving a ticket for me, What a bummer. I'm practically addicted to the guy. Speaking of, I've heard very little from any other member here about what they think! Mira, Medio, etc. (hint hint)

[Labyu]

You think you missed him???? A few minutes ago I logged into his forum and found a private message from a guy who had tickets to the sold-out Chicago show that I specifically drove to see. So, I missed the show and then found out someone was saving a ticket for me, What a bummer. I'm practically addicted to the guy. Speaking of, I've heard very little from any other member here about what they think! Mira, Medio, etc. (hint hint)


He's been on my wife's buddy list on MySpace for about a year and I have all of his music including the Bill Laswell produced album.

I have listened to so much dissapointing "Jewish" music over the years it's great to hear something with a message that deep and music that's actually good.

I'll bet he'll be lighting up Mtv shortly,his newest video has some great production values and isn't outside of what you would expect to see in the mainstream.The Youth video should be getting plenty of airtime in the near future.

I don't go in for live shows much anymore but if he plays Minneapolis/St Paul I'll probably go.

[minusthejihad]

He's been on my wife's buddy list on MySpace for about a year and I have all of his music including the Bill Laswell produced album.

I have listened to so much dissapointing "Jewish" music over the years it's great to hear somehting with a message that deep and music that's actually good.

I'll bet he'll be lighting up Mtv shortly,his newest video has some great production values and isn't outside of what you would expect to see in the mainstream.The Youth video should be getting plenty of airtime in the near future.

I don't go in for live shows much anymore but if he plays Minneapolis/St Paul I'll probably go.


Thank you! Yes, I agree. As I posted elsewhere, his music is intoxicating (and I'm pretty darned secular, but I love my peeps and respect the belief I may not share on a cellular level.). In case you didn't see this, you may enjoy it:

http://www.jumu.fr/pages/Matisyahu_Live_in_Paris_1.html (in France of all places! with Estelle Goldfarb on Violin, she rocks out freestyle!)

[Toga]

Maybe a person either has a Jewish soul or they don't.Not to say that you wouldn't make an excellent addition to "the family" but I have friends who converted for spriritual and idealogical reasons and they seemed to have a sense of Jewishness already extant within them prior to conversion.

Don't feel badly about it,there were thousands of Gentile women married to ancient Israelites who probably never felt like Jews either but they were a great benefit to our history and culture in many instances and even became the progenitors of many of our greatest heroes and leaders.

Then again maybe getting in touch with the anthopological side of Jewish studies might make it seem a little less commercial and fabricated.I don't feel very connected right now because my kid is pestering me to pay extra fees to the synagogue gaurantee seats for Purim and somehow that just doesn't feel right to me.

With fathers like you the psychologists will always be employed.

[Toga]

Hmmmm.............quite the topic :)

I am quite perplexed with this conversion "thing", speaking as a non Jewish female.
On one hand I agree with what is being said, that the child must be borne to a Jewish mother, with a conversion if she wasn't Jewish. On the other hand, I don't see a conversion capable of making you something you are not!

I was asked to convert in my 20's for marriage. We began the process at a reform temple, but it all seemed so silly to me, like an assembly line.
Granted, in my case, we knew ahead of time it was unlikely that we could have children and this was the determining factor when we both decided that I identified myself as a secular person and although I hadn't ever attended an Anglican church, there wasn't anything that could be done to make me feel Jewish. Although I have spent all of my life with Jews, lovers, husband, friends........I am simply, not Jewish!

Now, had I had children, I may have continued. Likely more so because it was expected of me, but now as I am older, I am glad I didn't follow it though.
I would have however, made it a point to learn all of the customs, as much as anyone else, given the children as much of a education to their heritage as the next, then allowed them to choose at a later date, which way they wanted to go.

If conversion couldn't make me "feel" like a Jew, for again, as I said, I am not nor ever can be.......I don't feel it would have made the outcome different, if I had a piece of paper saying that I was, but didn't feel it spiritually, then if in the eyes of my children I was a Jew.

I had to give this a lot of thought and have done more so since. My close friends run the spectrum from Reform-Conservative to "Modern" Orthodox and it is constantly said to me, that I am more "Jewish" than many Jews they know, although said with respect.
No matter how many might say so..........again I am not a Jew, nor feel conversion ever would have made me one!

So, as I get older ( mid 40's) I can now appreciate, especially as a non Jew, the need for children to be born of a Jewish mother!

I have a few friends who have children from non Jewish mothers, and I see a common problem over and over.
The children grow up "looking" Jewish--------have Jewish surnames, yet aren't Jews, live half of their lives as Jews, the other half not....but are now prone to suffering the same anti-Semitism others do, and I don't really feel it is all that fair to the child to place them in a mid way zone...

Perhaps it is not expected for a non Jewish female....one who has also not had any religious training of their own "faith" to suggest this, but I have to say I'm weary of most converts :)

I suppose all I am trying to say, is that if it is confusing for me-----being part of a world I am accepted within fully but always understand there is one defining feature that keeps me apart, I cant imagine how it must be for young children to grow up in this manner!

That is exactly what Doron Kornbluth wrote about:

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1480

[Toga]

. I agree with you that the issue only becomes difficult when children are involved, and from what I have seen, usually the children are raised as humanists with neither Christian or Jewish teachings and then they grow up and depending on who they marry, determines whether the "Jewishness" fades out. Maybe if we were a more numerous people or if we proselytized, then it wouldn't matter as much. That's why I am in favor of the Rerform movement's practice of allowing children to be considered Jewish if either parent is a Jew, even though it creates some complications with other branches that don't recognize that practice. If and when the child grows up and depending on their convictions, these things can be worked out.

1. Thank G-d that neither you nor another Jew can make the rules.

2. Our Torah (the contstitution) is our guide. Period. If some Jews try to make the rules/laws to accommodate a Jewish group regardless how big or small it is then why not to accommodate the Jews who turned to Christianity? Where does it end? There are certain things we cannot accommodate and that is just one of them.

3. Just as the US Supreme court interpetes the great American constitution our brilliant sages interprete/dicepher the code of the Torah.

4. When a Jew divorces the Jewish people and breaks the chain that Jew would have to live with the consequences. The Jews will survive regardless of intermarriage in America or Canada. This is not the first time in the Jewish history when many Jews intermarried and disappeared.

[physics]

I greatly appreciate your post. Thanks. You speak the truth.

Being a Jew is something that's inherited. That's where Jewish ethnicity comes in.

Some non-Jews can properly convert and become legitimate members of Jewish community. For others, conversion has a limited meaning because the people simply can't feel Jewish. They know their roots, and it's impossible to feel Jewish .

However, people that convert are obviously taking a step towards becoming part of Jewish people and passing it on to their future generations.

[physics]

I think that moist American Secular Jews, especially those with only one Jewish parent, have very weak Jewish identity. Seems like they don't even consider Jewish as an ethnicity, but simply as people who follow Judaism.

I think that Israeli Secular Jews have the strongest sense of Jewish identity than any other secular diaspora Jews. The reasons are obvious.

[Labyu]

With fathers like you the psychologists will always be employed.


What makes you so sure that I am not a Psychologist?:D

[Toga]

What makes you so sure that I am not a Psychologist?:D


Ahh, every psychologist needs a good psychologist. Now I understand why you are that way....

Your poor kid!

[Metzenberg]

This looks like kind of an old discussion. I found it while I was googling around looking for something else. It was fascinating reading. I decided to sign up for IsraelForum.com. I hope to see some of you here in other threads.

Too many contradictions in your post Labyu, and you finally proved your confusion.
........
Dismissed!

Muslima,

In the Passover Seder (feast, literally order), it is traditional that the youngest child ask four questions. Ma nish ta na (Why is this night different from all other nights? ... etc.)

One of the commentaries that is a tradition of the Seder notes that there are four kinds of children (the wise child, the wicked child, the simple child, and the one that does not know to ask), and that each of them should be given a different kind of answer to the four questions.

Another commentator notes that each one of us has some of each of those four children in us. I think of myself as a wise child with some tendency towards wickedness, but maybe I am just flattering myself.

One of our traditions, of course, is that we love to debate and argue. The Talmud itself records both the losing side and the winning side of each debate among the rabbinical sages, so that one day the debate itself might be reexamined in different circumstances.

Now you have discovered, through your participation in one of our debates, that in spite of all of our Nobel scientists and chess masters, the Jewish people includes some simple children as well as wise ones. And like the wise ones, many of them have a tendency towards wickedness. Unfortunately, because they are simple, they have less of an ability to recognize their wickedness. And unlike the child that does not know to ask, they sometimes don't seem to know when to stop asking.

But another commentator is said to have observed that it really is necessary to have all four children present to complete the seder. That's why they are here.

So, welcome to our seder. I thank you for joining us.

Beteh Avon!

Howard

[Oblivious]

I guess King David would have a great trouble then to say that he was a Jew being his great-grandmother from Moab, I believe that to be a true Jew is a true relationship between G-d and oneself.
I truly believe if many that believe they have true Jewishness on then would just make a DNA analysis and cast out any doubt of the true idententy if that were the case (probably nobody would want to receive surprises)
Anyhow this is the Story of Ruth in short a Gentile Great grand mother of our greates king of Israel.

Elimelech moves his two sons and wife Naomi from Bethlehem, Judah to Moab during a time of famine. Their two sons marry Moabite women Orpah and Ruth (Ruth רוּת means "Compassion", Standard Hebrew Rut, Tiberian Hebrew Rûṯ). Over a period of ten years, the men of the family die, leaving their three widows. Naomi resolves to return to her homeland and urges her two daughters-in-law to return to their Moabite families. Orpah listens to Naomi’s urgings, but Ruth pledges her undying devotion to her mother-in-law.
The genealogy that concludes the book of Ruth climaxes with the wonderful disclosure that Ruth of Moab is the great-grandmother of King David.

[Shotgun Styles]

Sammie Davis Jr. was Jewish...

[Gunther]

2.The imortance of Jewish genetics is hardly "Hogwash" as it is a total invalidation of both Christian and Islamic Replacement Theology upon which most of the curiously illogical arguments of the proponents of anti-Jewish sentiment predicate their insanity.

This statement shows your limited knowlege of both Christianity and Islam. If you had read the new testement maybe you would have heard the phriase "thier is niether Jew nor Greek". The Catholic Church maintains that its followers are the people of God, but out of beliefs and not out of genetics. You probably would not like the critisism of the Talmud by somebody who knows very little about it so please, I am not offended by critisism, but make sure you know what you are talking about.

[Oblivious]

The point is that in Judaism the ortodox claims that a true Jew is the one who is bare from a Jewish Mom, however this claim could invalidaded if not King David at least his great grand father, so making his paternal lineage UnJewish, in the other hand in the civil war in Israel one of the tribes almost get wipe out, so they went a look for "other" women and thus restore somehow the tribe, my point is that probably who knows many that are arrogant and feel "I am from a Jewish mother" don't even know if are descendets from those tribes of those UnJewish Mothers. So my point is who is a true Jew?
a) the one bore from a Jewish mother?
b) the one who was born from a Jewish father and UnJewish mother?
c) the one who didn't know was a Jew because the Inquisitions or any other persecution, having only left the DNA to prove it?
d) a Converted?
e) an Israel citizen?
f) o a Truly believer in G-d and who keeps all the mitzvos and who daily seek to delight in Tora?

From my personal view I would care less from a to e, I think to G-d it is more importtan f, but anyway who would convince the ortodox anyway I don't exactly know if they care more of point a or f.
Would be interesting to see their point of view.

[Mediocrates]

It seems that none of you actually care about Judaism at all so why the obsession with biology? Show of hands, how many people know this week's parsha?

[Oblivious]

It seems that none of you actually care about Judaism at all so why the obsession with biology? Show of hands, how many people know this week's parsha?

I guess to you my "f" point is not applicable to Judaism, (and that is not biology it is spiritual) or then can you define it for us what is true Judaism?

[Mediocrates]

a) the one bore from a Jewish mother?
yes

b) the one who was born from a Jewish father and UnJewish mother?
sometimes

c) the one who didn't know was a Jew because the Inquisitions or any other persecution, having only left the DNA to prove it?
no or yes or maybe

d) a Converted?
yes

e) an Israel citizen?
sometimes

f) o a Truly believer in G-d and who keeps all the mitzvos and who daily seek to delight in Tora?
That's a goal not a state or prerequisite

[Tigranes]

So how many reason do you all have for marrying Jewish, I'd like to here some of your thoughts.

[spike]

So how many reason do you all have for marrying Jewish, I'd like to here some of your thoughts.

Why not?

[Gunther]

Ever notice how many of them are in their 30s and 40s but still unmarried?Ever notice how many of them are extememly judgemental/cranky(they call it selective)?I almost gave up on Jewish girls and resigned myself to being a prolific bachelor with lots of gentile girlfriends until I met my wife and even though she knew my Shiksa habit too well.
Well lets see, shiksa, literal difiinition meaning lothsome, detestable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiksawow, if thats how you would refer to women you were involved with then that states that either you do not know what the word means, or you have complete contempt for them.

[#13]

The reason to marry a Jewish spouse is because in the case of a wife whose spiritual status is not compatible with the complexity of a Jewish soul, the family will abandon its connection to Judaism. The lady of the house rules the house.

It is also forbidden to mary a non-Jewish husband, however in this case the Jewish lineage is maintained, since again the house is ruled by the mother.

I think intermarried couples should learn about Judaism and develop spiritually until it becomes clear whether or not they are truly compatible and should join the Jewish nation. Otherwise, divorce may be a painful but in long term healthier option.

[Aviva]

The point is that in Judaism the ortodox claims that a true Jew is the one who is bare from a Jewish Mom, however this claim could invalidaded if not King David at least his great grand father, so making his paternal lineage UnJewish, in the other hand in the civil war in Israel one of the tribes almost get wipe out, so they went a look for "other" women and thus restore somehow the tribe, my point is that probably who knows many that are arrogant and feel "I am from a Jewish mother" don't even know if are descendets from those tribes of those UnJewish Mothers. So my point is who is a true Jew?
a) the one bore from a Jewish mother?
b) the one who was born from a Jewish father and UnJewish mother?
c) the one who didn't know was a Jew because the Inquisitions or any other persecution, having only left the DNA to prove it?
d) a Converted?
e) an Israel citizen?
f) o a Truly believer in G-d and who keeps all the mitzvos and who daily seek to delight in Tora?

From my personal view I would care less from a to e, I think to G-d it is more importtan f, but anyway who would convince the ortodox anyway I don't exactly know if they care more of point a or f.
Would be interesting to see their point of view.

Ruth, the ancestor of King David was a convert. Therefore, to answer your question, a Jew is someone who can prove his/her mother is Jewish or who has officially converted according to a reputable Beth Din.

22% of Israeli citizens aren't Jewish - they're Muslim, Christian, Druze, etc.

[Mediocrates]

What is this, thread 207 of people screaming aloud their right to tell me who is and who is not a Jew? Strange, or maybe not so strange I guess this kind of pathological bigotry.

[Oblivious]

Ruth, the ancestor of King David was a convert. Therefore, to answer your question, a Jew is someone who can prove his/her mother is Jewish or who has officially converted according to a reputable Beth Din.

22% of Israeli citizens aren't Jewish - they're Muslim, Christian, Druze, etc.

Then I believe Ruth did not have the oportunity to be conveted officially with a reputable Beth Din, so let say then in this days she wouldn't be considered a Jew and therefore King's David Father wouldn't be a Jew either so that part of his family would be considered non Jew at all in this days!!!!

It would be interesting to see those who claim to be Jews this days with 'known' Jewish mother, but perhaps, the actual Jewish mother had a Female Jewish ancestor that was not a Jew perhaps a convert not with a reputable Beth Din, what would happen if by DNA testing they end up being either AngloSaxons, Africans, Rusians, Persians, etc..... Would the current Jewish mother be a fake or a Jew?

[Aviva]

Then I believe Ruth did not have the oportunity to be conveted officially with a reputable Beth Din, so let say then in this days she wouldn't be considered a Jew and therefore King's David Father wouldn't be a Jew either so that part of his family would be considered non Jew at all in this days!!!!

It would be interesting to see those who claim to be Jews this days with 'known' Jewish mother, but perhaps, the actual Jewish mother had a Female Jewish ancestor that was not a Jew perhaps a convert not with a reputable Beth Din, what would happen if by DNA testing they end up being either AngloSaxons, Africans, Rusians, Persians, etc..... Would the current Jewish mother be a fake or a Jew?

How can you be a "fake" Jew if you convert though? I don't really see the problem. A Beth Din (ie: a court of 3 rabbis) can convert a sincere person and that person becomes Jewish.

When I said a "reputable" Beth Din, I was making reference to to the current situation where progressive Batei Dinim aren't seen as kosher by many Orthodox Jews. That's currently an area of contention regarding this subject. But none of that would have existed in the time of Ruth.

A foreign woman converts to the Israelite faith (and people) and shows by her actions that she's an utterly sincere convert. That's what the story of Ruth portrays.