India weapon purchases and the Merkava tank

[Mr. Pumps]

:) Since India's Arjun MBT effort is in the can and the T-90 is the only tank ordered from Russia, would Israel ever consider selling the Merkava tank to India. As the Israelis tried to sell the Merkava to Turkey.

[Mr. Pumps]

There something incredible symbolic about the following picture:
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Army/Merk3_rubber_trucks/pages/image1.htm

:D It relies to me that whatever fire the People of Palestine throw at Israel. The jewish nation will cruise right threw it with more fire and determination. WOW!

[dunky]

Is it true that this tank is the most powerfull one in the world?
they said so when i went to the tank museums in israel but i guess they dont have impartial opinions over there.

[TheyAre]

I believe that in terms of firepower, speed, maneuverability, space (inside the turret and hull) and aiming, the Merkava Battle Tank is even better than the most advanced tanks of the United States Armed Forces.

A good way to sell the Merkava to India would be to sell them the plans, with the restriction that only India would see them, and then let India build tanks for themselves and for Israel, at a reduced price, since Israel did give them the plans. This would be a great way to increase the manufacturing capacity of the IDF, get some money, and get the tanks at a lower price.

[elke]

Originally posted by TheyAre
I believe that in terms of firepower, speed, maneuverability, space (inside the turret and hull) and aiming, the Merkava Battle Tank is even better than the most advanced tanks of the United States Armed Forces.

A good way to sell the Merkava to India would be to sell them the plans, with the restriction that only India would see them, and then let India build tanks for themselves and for Israel, at a reduced price, since Israel did give them the plans. This would be a great way to increase the manufacturing capacity of the IDF, get some money, and get the tanks at a lower price.

Good idea :) But would it be wise to depend on anyone else for this kind of essential equipment?

[dunky]

do you guys think that the americans will ever buy Israeli tanks.


and while were are on the subject of israeli arms. Has Israel mentioned the redevolopment of the Lavi aircraft or any other planes

[elke]

I don't know about the tanks, but I saw a program a few months ago, which said that during the Desert Storm, the Iraqis sent their surrender to an Israeli-made robot plane (sorry, I don't know what the official name of the gadget is)

Oh, the irony! :D

[alexbmn]

from what I remember the A1M2 Abrams is the best tank in the World.But Merava isnt far behind.

[I am David]

I believe the Merkava has a full electronic warning system agains airborn threats(missiles) and an array of countermeasures, which the Abrahm deos not. Could be wrong though.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/storypage.jsp?id=12428


From Middle East Wire - Karzai of Afghanistan formally asks the Israelis for help in combatting terrorism.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/storypage.jsp?id=12428


From Middle East Wire - Karzai of Afghanistan formally asks the Israelis for help in combatting terrorism. A brave act, given the background: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0209/kamber.php

Should we start a thread here "All Muslims are not alike"?

[TheyAre]

Karzai is an example of the type of Muslim who should be in charge of the PA, the type of Muslim Israel should be negotiating with. He knows who's strong, who's not, and is a good politician.

[elke]

Originally posted by Vic
A brave act, given the background: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0209/kamber.php

Should we start a thread here "All Muslims are not alike"?

Sounds like a winner! :)

Seriously, YES, I think we should

[alexbmn]

those who arent Arabs like turks and Tajics are much much better.

[Mr. Pumps]

Originally posted by elke
I don't know about the tanks, but I saw a program a few months ago, which said that during the Desert Storm, the Iraqis sent their surrender to an Israeli-made robot plane (sorry, I don't know what the official name of the gadget is)

Oh, the irony! :D

Well maybe not that attacking Robot drone from the beggining of Terminator -2.......not yet. But the U.S has missile armed predator drone and Israel has a SAM attacking drone, while still human controlled have no pilots.

I predict the next be thing is computer controlled weaponry, :D war in the future will become totally automated within industrialized countries incl. Israel, until machines become our masters, here is saluting our future robotic masters.....cheers!.

[Mediocrates]

Boeing recently tested a drone prototype that is a subsonic weapons platform. It also incorporates stealth technology. Still remote fly by wire - that is, no intelligent autonomous drones, yet. It's called the X45 and it will probably see front line service 2007-2010.

Design specs are for 3000lb payload, 750 mile range

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/756199.asp

http://www.boeing.com/phantom/ucav.html

Phase 2 incorporates some aspects of semi autonomous operations with operator backup for mission monitoring a/o control including multiple aircraft to ground operator missions. It can be disassembled and stored in a crate for 10 years and then put on line in 90 minutes.

[Arjunn]

Karzai is an example of the type of Muslim who should be in charge of the PA, the type of Muslim Israel should be negotiating with. He knows who's strong, who's not, and is a good politician.

and karzai was educated in india and got his PHD there..hence he talks sensibly :) unlike those who go to "islamic" countries for their "education".lol

and dont forget that india supported the nothern allience even after the pull out of russia and rise of taliban, they stood by the nothern allience, gave shelter and weapons, and even training, most of the families of the nothern allience's leaders were living in india. and when their leader was killed by osamas cronies 2 days before the attack on the world trade center, he was flown to india(just before he died) and not to any other islamic country for medical treatment..ut sadly he coundt be saved..because of the massive injuries to vitals.

it makes me smile to see that now pakistan is bordered on the west by a county wich sees pakistan as an ally of the taliban(cos pakistanis supported taliban) and has only a very icy relationsship with it

[Arjunn]

:) Since India's Arjun MBT effort is in the can and the T-90 is the only tank ordered from Russia, would Israel ever consider selling the Merkava tank to India. As the Israelis tried to sell the Merkava to Turkey.


i wonder if israel would agree to a full TOT(transfer of technology) in regards to merkarva as the russians did with their T90s.india has gotten about 400T90s from russia and the licence to produce anyware from 1000-2000 of them in india.

and if Isral can supply india with phalcon without worrying about proliferation(india NEVER proliferates tech/weapons) then they should indeed offer the indian gov with the merkava tank.

but they should be able to work in high humidity/jungle/High altitude conditions as well thou..cos india has many terrain types

PS: the Arjun project is not toattally abandoned thou and they have produced a Mk2 version of the Arjun and plan to produce them in larger numbers in a few years

[KettleWhistle]

Merkava MKIII is offered for export.

[Arjunn]

With full transfer of technology? and licence for building in the buying country?

[KettleWhistle]

This web site just says that Merkava MKIII is offered for export: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

Obviously, any technology transfer and/or licensed manufacturing would be a matter of governmental agreements between the countries.

[Womble]

Is it true that this tank is the most powerfull one in the world?
In terms of what? Firepower- probably not the best, but one of the best. But Merkava is hands down the best tank in the world as far as crew survival goes. It is even designed to use its own engine and fuel tanks as a sort of back-up armor. It is also probably the only tank in the world designed with urban warfare in mind. The Merkava is not the fastest tank, but it is very modular, reliable and has one of the best fire control systems. It is also one of the very few tanks in the world with anti-helicopter capability.

Two relatively recent examples:

A few years ago, a Merkava 2 tank absorbed some 7 direct hits from anti-tank rockets launched by the Hizbullah. The tank sustained surface damage but was able to drive back to the base without problems, and the crew wasn't even wounded.

Some might remember that a Merkava tank was blown up in Gaza by a 100kg explosive charge set up by the Palestinians. The tank was completely destroyed and the crew died- but a 100kg landmine is something no tank in the world could possibly withstand. However, this led to an upgrade of the Merkava's bottom armor. Some time later, an upgraded Merkava was again blown up on a 100kg explosive charge. The tank was lifted into the air and flipped over, but the bottom armor was not penetrated. By a 100kg landmine. To my knowledge, the Merkava is the only tank in the world that could save its crew from such a blast.

[Womble]

but they should be able to work in high humidity/jungle/High altitude conditions as well thou..cos india has many terrain types
The Merkava was designed for desert and mountain terrain. Not sure how well it would do in the jungle or on soft, swampy soil.

[Arjunn]

yeah the tank does have soem awesome armour protection, u forgot to mention the aditional rearward hatch too.wich is good for easy extration.

yeah its the best tank for urban warfare, no doubt about it

is it desgihed to work on heavy snow? cos in kashmir the battle ground is usually above 10 000 ft!

but yeah..if its good in jungle/swampy environments and especially in High humidity enviroments(many tanks have probs with high humidity) then its good

[Ariksan]

There is a video somewhere on the net with a demo on the merkava targeting system with a merkava shooting down a helicopter with the main turret while moving... No Abrams can do that.

[Arjunn]

yeah abrams cant do that.

There is an Anti-helicopter round developed for the Arjun tank thou, it has a proximity fuse(donno if its a laser or radar trigger) wich detonates the round in a preset distance from the target. the round it made up of prefragmented submunitions similar to a shotgun round wich fans out in a huge lethal swathe.

but the better option the Arjun and the T90 have is that they can fire the newer russian sams thru their gun.i think the merkava has a similar system

[Womble]

the better option the Arjun and the T90 have is that they can fire the newer russian sams thru their gun.i think the merkava has a similar system
Yep. But the Merkava has a better fire control system. When it comes to accurately hitting targets at long ranges while on the move, the Merkava beats both the Abrams and the the T90- and just about any other tank there is out there.

[Arjunn]

yep

Arjun is our first tank thou.its a very good tank, but it got soo delayed and soo many deadlines were mised. but thank god its back on track now

[Ariksan]

Here is one vid:

Merkava Mark 4 video (mms://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv)

[Arjunn]

Awesome video man:)

[Gilgamesh]

:) Since India's Arjun MBT effort is in the can and the T-90 is the only tank ordered from Russia, would Israel ever consider selling the Merkava tank to India. As the Israelis tried to sell the Merkava to Turkey.
1. Israel hadn't sold any Merkava Tanks to Turkey. We sold them upgraded M-60 Patton tanks, refitted, rearmed with modern knight fire control system, night vision and all.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/sabra/Sabra2.htm

2. Israel would never (in sane mind, which seems to be scarce in Israel) sell any Merkava tanks, for any price, since it's the backbone of our defense, and contains too many national and industrial seacrets. (such as the alloys the armor is made of, the computers and their software ect...).

3. Merkava was designed for Israel needs and uses. It might not be the best deal for India, though, cause India's requirements in terms of logistics, manuverability or fire power. All these might be different from ours.

4. The best solution for India would be to ask Israel to upgrade their existing tanks and refit them with modern equipment. The same way Israel has already upgraded India's artillary pieces.

5. Equally possible solution, is co-development of a new tank.

[Gilgamesh]

This web site just says that Merkava MKIII is offered for export: http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

Obviously, any technology transfer and/or licensed manufacturing would be a matter of governmental agreements between the countries.

I know that site by heart. I doesn't say anywhere the Merkava itself is available for export! I'll be suicide!

[Arjunn]

1. Israel hadn't sold any Merkava Tanks to Turkey. We sold them upgraded M-60 Patton tanks, refitted, rearmed with modern knight fire control system, night vision and all.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/sabra/Sabra2.htm

2. Israel would never (in sane mind, which seems to be scarce in Israel) sell any Merkava tanks, for any price, since it's the backbone of our defense, and contains too many national and industrial seacrets. (such as the alloys the armor is made of, the computers and their software ect...).

3. Merkava was designed for Israel needs and uses. It might not be the best deal for India, though, cause India's requirements in terms of logistics, manuverability or fire power. All these might be different from ours.

4. The best solution for India would be to ask Israel to upgrade their existing tanks and refit them with modern equipment. The same way Israel has already upgraded India's artillary pieces.

5. Equally possible solution, is co-development of a new tank.


the fifth option would be very attactive
and as someone posted ealier, producing these tanks in india would reduce the overall cost of the tank as well as increase the number produced yearly.

[Gilgamesh]

the fifth option would be very attactive
and as someone posted ealier, producing these tanks in india would reduce the overall cost of the tank as well as increase the number produced yearly.

I agree... We can even design it in a way which would allow compatability in spare parts between the India's tank and the Merkava.

[Ariksan]

I am sure that if India would seriously consider to buy Merkava's Israel would be tempted to sell provided that there are guarantees that no technology transfer occurs to other states. Turkey is another matter since a regime change - which lets face it is always a possibility in muslim countries - could drasticly change relations between Israel and Turkey.

[Arjunn]

Merkava is a great tank, but sadly india never buys any weapons in larger numbers without TOT(total technology transfer) agreement:(

It pays huge amounts of money for the tech transfer, actually for india the TOT is more important. russia understands this and so does the us,..when it Offered india the 18E superhornet(no other country other than the us has the superhornet version of the f 18)with tis AESA radar and also even the source codes for all its weapons/avionics/radar systems

cos..india would never even have considered the f18 as one of the possible candidates for the 300aircraft fighter purchase tender if there wasnt any TOT
.india knows full well that if it buys the f18 but isnt able to produce the entire thing in its own soil. it will be forever in the mercy of sanctions.

now it takes the concept a step further and Co-produces weapons and does reseach, hence it gets ownership of the system as well as mroe experience.in the last 6 years india has spent about 60 Billion $ into russian R&D and by doing so it had revived a lot of projects put on the backburner cos of lack of funds in russia. the agreement is that when the research is over, india get as much ownership of the results/end product as russia does. its a win win deal for both of the countries

[Gilgamesh]

now it takes the concept a step further and Co-produces weapons and does reseach, hence it gets ownership of the system as well as mroe experience.in the last 6 years india has spent about 60 Billion $ into russian R&D and by doing so it had revived a lot of projects put on the backburner cos of lack of funds in russia. the agreement is that when the research is over, india get as much ownership of the results/end product as russia does. its a win win deal for both of the countries

Only that Russia has no moral inhibittion in selling the same technology, with or without Indian approval, to China, Iran or Pakistan. Israel isn't like that, and that's Israel main advantage over Russia. We have moral.

[Arjunn]

i agree, but russian dsoent sell any weapons to pakistan, its a deal india and russia made. russia would be foolish indded to even think of selling weapons to pakistan.

[Gilgamesh]

i agree, but russian dsoent sell any weapons to pakistan, its a deal india and russia made. russia would be foolish indded to even think of selling weapons to pakistan.

I really hope you are right, friend Arjunn, for all of our sakes.
I am afraid, you put too much trust on Russian ability for medium-long term thinking, where I can't trust my own goverment ability to think beyoned the immidiate term.

[Womble]

i agree, but russian dsoent sell any weapons to pakistan, its a deal india and russia made. russia would be foolish indded to even think of selling weapons to pakistan.
Russia would love to sell weapons to Pakistan, and to anyone else for that matter. The problem is, Pakistan is an American client state, and the Americans demand that they only purchase American war tech- just like they demand it from Israel.

[karan]

Russia would love to sell weapons to Pakistan, and to anyone else for that matter.

Pakistan is a nation which cannot even afford their own defence needs. It's all American generosity towards Pakistan that has helped them to be as a nation till today. All the aid given to Pakistan goes into the pockets of the Jihadis and the U.S defence companies.

With regard to Russia, the relationship b/w Russia and India is very strong.The Russian's will never do the mistake of arming Pakistan for two reasons.

1. They will lose the major deals with India for the peanut deals with Pakistan. (like 8 helicopters by Pak etc)

2. The U.S will utilise a strong Pakistan to counter Russian interests in Central Asia.

[karan]

Information on Indian MBT Arjun

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Arjun.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images-MBT1.html

Images
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images-MBT1.html

The Arjun is capable of firing the Isreali Anti-tank LAHAT missile

Arjun to be equipped with Israeli missile
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/feb052004/n4.asp

LAHAT Laser Guided Missile
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/lahat.htm

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0064.jpg

[Arjunn]

Russia would love to sell weapons to Pakistan, and to anyone else for that matter. The problem is, Pakistan is an American client state, and the Americans demand that they only purchase American war tech- just like they demand it from Israel.

i have to disagree with u there, india and russia have a unique partnership wich not even russia and china has, russia never sells weapons to pakistan because india asked it not to do so.if russia sells weapons to pakistan it knows full well that it will lose the india market.

and u have to keep in mind the special relationship between russia and india..even during the cold war, russia gave us technology/weapons wich wernt even given to warsaw pact countries.even now india gets stuff china cannot get, from russia

[Arjunn]

Pakistan is a nation which cannot even afford their own defence needs. It's all American generosity towards Pakistan that has helped them to be as a nation till today. All the aid given to Pakistan goes into the pockets of the Jihadis and the U.S defence companies.

With regard to Russia, the relationship b/w Russia and India is very strong.The Russian's will never do the mistake of arming Pakistan for two reasons.

1. They will lose the major deals with India for the peanut deals with Pakistan. (like 8 helicopters by Pak etc)

2. The U.S will utilise a strong Pakistan to counter Russian interests in Central Asia.


yeah
but india dosent care about pakistan now!..pakistan is a country thats keeping itself from going broke only cos of american handouts.they cant ever catch up with us..and the gap is ever soo widening

[Sharif Smuggler]

Pakistan is a nation which cannot even afford their own defence needs. It's all American generosity towards Pakistan that has helped them to be as a nation till today. All the aid given to Pakistan goes into the pockets of the Jihadis and the U.S defence companies.


Please keep your extremely biased and anti-pakistani opinions to yourself!

The first two sentences of your post, would you also like to direct them towards Israel as well? Considering that Israel receives more defence aid from the US than any other country in the world!? And if Pakistan was such a weak country, what is stopping your 'mighty' India from invading us or doing anything but 'bitching'?

And please stop your propoganda about Pakistan and jihadis!!!!

[Arjunn]

Please keep your extremely biased and anti-pakistani opinions to yourself!

The first two sentences of your post, would you also like to direct them towards Israel as well? Considering that Israel receives more defence aid from the US than any other country in the world!? And if Pakistan was such a weak country, what is stopping your 'mighty' India from invading us or doing anything but 'bitching'?

And please stop your propoganda about Pakistan and jihadis!!!!


karan said the TRUTH, however unpalatable it might be to u. if u doubt his word, pls check the world bank/monetary fund/cia reports on pakistani ecomomic situation

israel gets money from the us too, but even without the money it can survive and wont be bankrupt as pakistan will be.

"And if Pakistan was such a weak country, what is stopping your 'mighty' India from invading us or doing anything but 'bitching'?"

the above comment is really stupid, india dosent have hegemonistic ambitions nor religious fanaticism that "requires" it to invae and occupy other countries(hint: as u pakistanis did..forgot history already buddy?). and yes, pakistan is a weak country..u just have to live with the truth.lol

[Sharif Smuggler]

yeah
but india dosent care about pakistan now!..pakistan is a country thats keeping itself from going broke only cos of american handouts.they cant ever catch up with us..and the gap is ever soo widening

SAD!! Very Sad! The fact that a country of over a billion and you people seem to have absolutely nothing better to do but bitch about Pakistan.

Pakistan is 1/4 the size of India and has 1/8 its population; yet you seem to forget that fact when you compare the two country's economies for your cheap thrills and ego-boosts! PATHETIC!!!

As for Pakistan's 'sad' economy, here are a few links for you:

China's New Growth Challenger Is Pakistan (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&sid=aiSFuvMKI2Gw&refer=columnist_mukherjee)

Pakistan offers best returns in Asia - Merrill Lynch (http://www.dawn.com/2006/02/15/ebr7.htm)

Morgan Chase CEO lauds Pakistan's rapid economic Development (http://pakistantimes.net/Top20010602.htm)

Asia’s best performer - Karachi Stock Exchange remains prudent, consistent, and secure - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/ads/global/pakistan_banking_finance/nine.html)

Pakistan’s economy doing well: Moody (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005%5C12%5C14%5Cstory_14-12-2005_pg5_7)

Pakistan's economy grew by 8.4% last year and is expected to grow by around 7% this year! And if you actually did some research, you will find that 'american handouts' are not the reason for this. So please refrain from such uneducated and uninformed comments against Pakistan again.

To other members, sorry for these non-related (to this thread) posts, but there is only so much we can ignore when these Indians are spreading nothing but filth against our country.

[Sharif Smuggler]

karan said the TRUTH, however unpalatable it might be to u. if u doubt his word, pls check the world bank/monetary fund/cia reports on pakistani ecomomic situation

israel gets money from the us too, but even without the money it can survive and wont be bankrupt as pakistan will be.

"And if Pakistan was such a weak country, what is stopping your 'mighty' India from invading us or doing anything but 'bitching'?"

the above comment is really stupid, india dosent have hegemonistic ambitions nor religious fanaticism that "requires" it to invae and occupy other countries(hint: as u pakistanis did..forgot history already buddy?). and yes, pakistan is a weak country..u just have to live with the truth.lol

You know what, this is not a Pakistan related thread, nor is it a pakistan vs india thread so im going to refrain from turning it into one. I felt the need to make a point and I have. If you wish to continue this discussion, create a relevant thread and we will talk there.

I'll correct all your misconceptions about how 'weak' and 'poor' Pakistan is there :D And i'll provide you with the latest WB and IMF reports too. :cool:

For now, back to topic for this thread.

PS: LOL at you trying to kiss the Israeli's arse!! :D Israel would NEVER be in the same position it is in today if it was not for US aid and help. They may be in a better position today, but can no way deny the US help in the previous years.

[Arjunn]

SAD!! Very Sad! The fact that a country of over a billion and you people seem to have absolutely nothing better to do but bitch about Pakistan.

Pakistan is 1/4 the size of India and has 1/8 its population; yet you seem to forget that fact when you compare the two country's economies for your cheap thrills and ego-boosts! PATHETIC!!!

As for Pakistan's 'sad' economy, here are a few links for you:

China's New Growth Challenger Is Pakistan (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&sid=aiSFuvMKI2Gw&refer=columnist_mukherjee)

Pakistan offers best returns in Asia - Merrill Lynch (http://www.dawn.com/2006/02/15/ebr7.htm)

Morgan Chase CEO lauds Pakistan's rapid economic Development (http://pakistantimes.net/Top20010602.htm)

Asia’s best performer - Karachi Stock Exchange remains prudent, consistent, and secure - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/ads/global/pakistan_banking_finance/nine.html)

Pakistan’s economy doing well: Moody (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005%5C12%5C14%5Cstory_14-12-2005_pg5_7)

Pakistan's economy grew by 8.4% last year and is expected to grow by around 7% this year! And if you actually did some research, you will find that 'american handouts' are not the reason for this. So please refrain from such uneducated and uninformed comments against Pakistan again.

To other members, sorry for these non-related (to this thread) posts, but there is only so much we can ignore when these Indians are spreading nothing but filth against our country.


first of all, let me start off by asking why ur using bold letters? to make ur voice heard cos it dosent have any substance? like shouting would make u heard over others even thou u say nonsense?..well ill not delve too deep into forum manners and stuff..i guess tis worthless mentioning those stuff here

i wasnt comparing the countries economies here, just pointing out the fact that it a country that spreads cross border terrorism and harbours terrorist elements..i woudnt go deep into this either..cos every person knows that its a fact

and for the links, ur missing my point, one of the links say that 60% of the exports are textiles..yeah right..great way with much expansion potential.the difference between the pakistani economic growth and the indian economic grwoth(wich i need not point out has maintained a 7% growth for almost the last decade and and is still going) is that indian growth is fueld by the high tech sector, such as outsourcing, and manufacturing.while china has the lead on manufacturing, india has the lead on white collor job outshorcing, i can count the number of R&D centors opened in pakistan with my 10 fingers..(are there any?..)while everyone knwos for a fact that unless they open up their R&D centors and back offices and even their companies.in indnia, they are gonna lose out.

india has more companies that have the CMM(a quality assurace lvl standard set by the us department of defence) qualification that the US, the Europe and China put together.

as for the debts that pakistan has, it would have pulled the country under many times if not for the us helping it out,
check this link from the us state department
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3453.htm

Pakistan's exports continue to be dominated by cotton textiles and apparel, despite government diversification efforts. Major imports include petroleum and petroleum products, edible oil, wheat, chemicals, fertilizer, capital goods, industrial raw materials, and consumer products. External imbalance has left Pakistan with a growing foreign debt burden.
and also the reasons why western companies dont want to invest in pakistan are manifold

1 pakistan is NOT a democratic country. half its existance has been spent under one military junta or the other.

2 is a hotbed for islamic fanaticism and has countless madrassas where terrorists are trained and groomed.(i dont have to go more deeper into this fact either.lol)

3 has soo many internal conflicst that every week there are sunn-shiite pastun-gov, tribal conflicts going on, claiming the lives of dozens,

even yesterday terrorists attacked a convoy of religious pilgrims from india who were going to a place of religious worhip in pakistan.the attack killed 2 pilgrims and woundd 7 others.

a few years ago french engineers who came to build subs for pakistani navy were kileld in another terrorist attack.lol..if they even kill folks who come to help their country....i need nto say more

and also remember the journalist? killed cos he was a jewish person?

this utter lawlessness drives away any notion of a safe foreighn investment

4 and finally, it is a state that sponsors terrorism on tis neighbours, i dont have to add mroe to this claim either..cos everybody knwos that im talking about

india on the other hand is predicted to become one of the worlds major powers around 2030-50 timesspan along with china and is a democratic country. if the CIA, IMf and the world banks reports are to be belived, india had the chance of overtaking chinas economy during the same timeperiod, because due to chinas 1 child policy it has a aging population and will not be able to compete with the larger amount of young manpower that would be available to india at the period of time.

and i would like to comclude my reply to this post by saying that i have deliberatly reduced the stuf i have written in this post cos i dont want to talk about obvious things that u folks already know of.

and for the second post by mr Sumggler(errr..smuggler..no wonder) i would suggest that u stop hijacking threads as u and ur kind are soo fond of doing and start a seperate thread.and i have to add that this is not the first time ive seen thread hijacking by ur kind.thank you

[R.T]

Hey you, this is an ISRAELI forum, take your bar fights somewhere else.

Naturally the winning general was Jewish. If I am not mistaken, indians are usually poor fighters. Beaten and humiliated so easily by a handful of arabs and later Britts. Failed to crush pakistan after all this time and got their butts kicked by the Chinese.

The indians could use a few Jewish generals who can show them how to win a war. :cool:

[MGB8]

R.T., don't be a putz.

[R.T]

Who's being a putz, it's a fact.

6,000 arabs from syria controlled millions of these docile indians and only 100,000 british were dominating 300 million indians.

[Arjunn]

Hey you , this is an ISRAELI forum, take your bar fights somewhere else.

Naturally the winning general was Jewish. If I am not mistaken, indians are usually poor fighters. Beaten and humiliated by a handful of arabs and later Britts. Failed to crush paksitan after all this time and got their butts kicked by the Chinese.

The Indians could use a few Jewish generals who can show them how to win a war. :cool:

i would have to remind u that there were few jewish generals in the indian army, not that they didnt do a good amount of work, but ur comment shows ignorance about historical facts.

1 who stopped alexander the great? not the egyptians, not the persians, but indians. after the battle of hydespes against the indian king Purushotaman(called Porus in greek), wich was the hardest battle alexader and his troops faught, his troops mutiny than rather go on fighting!

Purus was a relatively minor indian king, who had about a 100 war elephants and about 50 000 foot soldiers, yet he put a much better fight than the massive army of the persians.after the battle in wich Purus who atop his massive war elephant fought till the very last cohesive unit of his formations were fighting was taken prisoner and brought before alexander

Alexander reportedly asked him how he wished to be treated. ‘Like a king,’ Alexander asked "what do u mean? " Porus replied, ‘Everything is contained in the words “like a king”.‘ This answer so appealed to Alexander that he restored the captive to his realms, and Porus became a vassal.

Accoring to Arrian, alexanders historian
Porus was said to be "5 cubits tall", 7½ ft

there were 50 elephants in Darius's army at the Battle of Gaugamela but they appeared not to have much impact on the battle. Hydaspes River might have been the first time they saw an elephant charge. The combat against these attacking pachyderms was said to have had a fearful psychological effect on Alexander's men, particularly those in the phalanxes.

Some Indian historians are of the opinion that Alexander retreated because of the massive casualties his army suffered during the war with Porus. Certain scholars believe that the war between Porus and Alexander ended in a stalemate. They argue that the very fact that Porus continued to rule his empire even after the battle proves that Alexander's army did not win the war

but the main reason for alexanders army mutinying in idnia was the fact that Porus was a minor king and had about 100 war elephants..wich was almost enough to win the war..but the alexanders army knew that the Mauriya kingdom a bit further inside india had about 2000 war elephants..that fact along decided their fate and alexander had no option but move back

on his way back alexander attacked a town called mixi/multan where he was hit in the chest by an arrow and was almost given up for dead.Alexander confessed to his friends back home: ``They attacked me everywhere. They wounded my shoulder, they hit my leg, they shot an arrow in my chest, and they struck me on my neck with a loud thud.'' At one stage word had spread in the Greek camp that Alexander was dead --- and he had to be propped up and exhibited as alive!

historians believe that this might be the cause of his death a few years later, his famous horse died in the war too.

and within a year of his death, not only did he lose the small aprt of india he had invaded to the great india Mauryian empire, but his general in charge of the area and of bactria was driven back. and the empire not only took bactria into its state, but parts of persia as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauryan_Empire



2 and if not for india, all the countries in south/south east asia would be islamic countries now..about 2 billion more muslims, indians dindt give up their land without fighting for every inch.unlike the persians or the others.ur comments show utter ignorance of history, and i doubt u know any of south asian history

have u not heard of the Rajputs? who neevr surrender and if they are about to lose they fight till the last man while their family kills themselves rather than be taken prisoner? rem masada in israel? this is a 100 times bigger in scale

3 have u forgotten that india won EVERY war with pakistan?. as for why we dindt take over that country, we are not a hegemonistic power.they lost and we let them go,dont forget that we rescued the millions of bangaladeshies from pakistani atrocities and helped them have their own country.in every war we kicked pakistani asses and they had to go crying to the us to ask them to stop.lol.

4 the war with china was unexpected, actually indian Pm nehru had sighned a friendship agreement with china and thought that they would honour it.we had to learn that commies cannot be trusted, and we did learn, no more

5 do u know that millions of indian troops fought the germans in europe in the world war one?

do u know that millions fought the germans and japanese and the italians in europe, and africa and south east asia?

did u know that the indian divisions played a major role in the battle of el alamain in wich rommels vaunted afrika corp was defeated?

did u know that if not for indian troops the brits would have lost the entire southeast asia and india as well, to the japanese army?
and where was ur arab army? doing jack ****

recently in the falklands war "There the mere threat of their kukri knives of the gurkas(indian) put fear into the hearts of the Argentines and probably encouraged their swift surrender at Port Stanley and saved far greater loss of life."

i will not waste more of my time replying to such a stupid post.

[Arjunn]

Who's being a putz, it's a fact.

6,000 arabs from syria controlled millions of these docile indians and only 100,000 british were dominating 300 million indians.


6000 arabs? ur such an *******
no use talking with illiterate dumbos
read my above post

[vepr]

You know what, this is not a Pakistan related thread, nor is it a pakistan vs india thread so im going to refrain from turning it into one. I felt the need to make a point and I have. If you wish to continue this discussion, create a relevant thread and we will talk there.

I'll correct all your misconceptions about how 'weak' and 'poor' Pakistan is there :D And i'll provide you with the latest WB and IMF reports too. :cool:

For now, back to topic for this thread.

PS: LOL at you trying to kiss the Israeli's arse!! :D Israel would NEVER be in the same position it is in today if it was not for US aid and help. They may be in a better position today, but can no way deny the US help in the previous years.
Indians kissing . Lol
Look at you. On one hand you claim of paki-Israeli friendship and on the other hand your general advised Iran to nuke Israel.

I dont need to tell what liars pakan is full of.

and as for a separate thread no need. We have seen that " Look at Indians at Israeli forum" thread on ur beloved paki deaf and dumb forum.
And all the heads are now here.

And yah we all know what first world country Pakitan is where all people are bating in jewels. No need here. Go on your forum.

This thread is a strictly for India-Israel weapons purchase only.

Stay within your limits else you get kicked out of here like u wre at afm.

[vepr]

6000 arabs? ur such an *******
no use talking with illiterate dumbos
read my above post
RT is not Israeli nor is he Jewish. Just ignore him.
imo he is a wannabe paki arab

[R.T]

Purus was a relatively minor indian king, who had about a 100 war elephants and about 50 000 foot soldiers, yet he put a much better fight than the massive army of the persians.

Until proven otherwise, your king lost and Alexander would have taken India but his troops were tired after many years of fighting.


2 and if not for india, all the countries in south/south east asia would be islamic countries now

Malaysia, Indonesia.. Yes indeed.


about 2 billion more muslims, indians dindt give up their land without fighting for every inch.

Explain how a handful of arabs and later uzbeks, turks, persians, afghans etc. took over your country so easily. :)
In fact, they weren't even proper armies invading your lands, they were bandits.


have u not heard of the Rajputs?

Yeah I've heard of your gypsies, slaves of the arabs who wander around europe like petty criminals. Who hasn't.


who neevr surrender and if they are about to lose they fight till the last man while their family kills themselves rather than be taken prisoner? rem masada in israel? this is a 100 times bigger in scale

Hmm, I guess that wasn't worth much since Islam took hold of your country anyway.


3 have u forgotten that india won EVERY war with pakistan?.

No, you had stalemates with pakistan, except when you had a Jewish general to save you.


we are not a hegemonistic power.

Which is why you usually loose all your wars.


5 do u know that millions of indian troops fought the germans in europe in the world war one?

Yes, your indians were quite poor at fighting against Japan and Germany. Even Hitler thought your army was a joke, that's a fact.


did u know that if not for indian troops the brits would have lost the entire southeast asia and india as well, to the japanese army?

Ah, but you did. You lost all of southeast asia and were practically stuck in Burma for over 4 years cuz the Japs were on the defensive.


recently in the falklands war

Argentines are poor fighters.
==========================================


6000 arabs? ur such an *******

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim

Qasim was successful, rapidly taking all of Sindh and moving into Southern Punjab up to Multan on a regiment of 6,000 Syrians soldiers.

On his arrival at the town of Brahminabad between six and sixteen thousand men died in the ensuing battle. :)

[vepr]

Yes, your indians were quite poor at fighting against Japan and Germany. Even Hitler thought your army was a joke, that's a fact.
Show me the proof else buzz off.
Unless you slept between Eva and Adolf you wont know such thing.
heck hitler even thought of the Soviets as a joke. He was even counting on a fictitious army to be led to victory under Busse and Wenck when the Russians were pounding Berlin left right and center.

Hitler made a bigger joke when a ordinary policeman Goring and made him the chief of luftwaffe.

[Arjunn]

Until proven otherwise, your king lost and Alexander would have taken India but his troops were tired after many years of fighting.



Malaysia, Indonesia.. Yes indeed.



Explain how a handful of arabs and later uzbeks, turks, persians, afghans etc. took over your country so easily. :)
In fact, they weren't even proper armies invading your lands, they were bandits.



Yeah I've heard of your gypsies, slaves of the arabs who wander around europe like petty criminals. Who hasn't.



Hmm, I guess that wasn't worth much since Islam took hold of your country anyway.



No, you had stalemates with pakistan, except when you had a Jewish general to save you.



Which is why you usually loose all your wars.



Yes, your indians were quite poor at fighting against Japan and Germany. Even Hitler thought your army was a joke, that's a fact.



Ah, but you did. You lost all of southeast asia and were practically stuck in Burma for over 4 years cuz the Japs were on the defensive.



Argentines are poor fighters.
==========================================



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim

Qasim was successful, rapidly taking all of Sindh and moving into Southern Punjab up to Multan on a regiment of 6,000 Syrians soldiers.

On his arrival at the town of Brahminabad between six and sixteen thousand men died in the ensuing battle. :)


i can easily reply to all ur stupid replies to my post, but illrather not waste my time on a paki, and i dont want to aid u in ur attempt to hijack this thread. off u go to the iggy bin, adios

folks i suggest that we ignore RT

[R.T]

Show me the proof else buzz off.

http://www.feldgrau.com/azadhind.html

The Germans always had a very low opinion of the fighting qualities of the Indian army. Hitler commented: "The Indian Legion is a joke." :cool:

It seems the only thing you were good at was targeting poor civilians. :eek:


hitler even thought of the Soviets as a joke

They were a joke, the mistake they made was underestimating the weather.

[R.T]

i can easily reply to all ur stupid replies to my post, but illrather not waste my time on a paki, and i dont want to aid u in ur attempt to hijack this thread. off u go to the iggy bin, adios

What a pity, I present the facts and then you run away.:cool:

[R.T]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim

Qasim was successful, rapidly taking all of Sindh and moving into Southern Punjab up to Multan on a regiment of 6,000 Syrians soldiers.

On his arrival at the town of Brahminabad between six and sixteen thousand men died in the ensuing battle

============

[vepr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim

Israel is outnumbered a 100 to 1 and still managed to beat Egypt, Syria, Jordan etc. all in one go with one hand behind our backs.


Yes I really admire Israel's ability to humble all the islamic idiots.
More importantly Israel has managed to politically subdue any islamic support from jordan and egypt for the islamic terrorits of palestine. turkey has recently come out in support of Israel and is against iran. Slowly we will see entire islamic world accepting Israeli superiority in the ME.

IOW its called the art of GUBO (grease up and bend over)

But my friend how many times have you had a US 7th fleet to tackle as well as an entire chinese mobilisation on the other front?
None I guess.

[vepr]

R.T]


It seems the only thing you were good at was targeting poor civilians. :eek:
And the Nazis were not? Where did you learn history? Local Madrassas.

They were a joke, the mistake they made was underestimating the weather.[/
Does it take an einstein to teach about the cold in Russia?

[vepr]

It's quite sad that india is always owned by weaker nations. Where are those noble warriors you like to boast about? Sounds like an army of eunuchs to me.
Then you can very well understand the level of Pakistani army.

:D

[vepr]

Well, you indians and paki's are from the same race aren't you? And you still haven't broken them even though you're a lot bigger. ;)

Same race! Oh god no. We are short dark skinny thin legged rice ceating people. OTH Pakistanis are tall fair handsome and meat eating people with strong limbs.
You should be punished for saying this. Pakis dont like being compared with Indians. They feel they are of some seljoke origin.:D

And speaking of breaking up, we did yes in 1971 and now we look forward to doing it gain in Balochistan and sindh.

But now look at
US. Super power yet they havent broken up canada or mexico. china also hasnt gotten anywhere with Japan. So are the nations of Egypt, Jordan, Syria
and Israel still standing. Also is Ahmed-in-jehad with his big mouth in Iran.(well cant say for he wont be living for long). And the Belgians and Dutch inspite of Brits and French with all the nukular weapons. Even the latin american countries still stand.

Only people dying now on will be the jehadi muslims. (Ah the lust of 72 virgins )

[vepr]

Tell that to Hitler, Hindenburg, Fredrick the great, Charles the 12th, Napoleon... :cool:

And what will happen after that? They had their moments and they lost. Ike considered the effects of weather, Churchill, FDR, De Gaulle, Montgomery , Rommel Patton , para drop losses and heck even the sand at normandy.

Pulled a victory didnt he?

[vepr]

Thanks to a Jewish general. :cool:
Jewish second. An Indian first.

[Arjunn]

the admin has been notified and action will be taken against those who hijacked the thread.
bye bye R.T

[Sharif Smuggler]

Arjunn,

Im using bolds to ensure that my truth is seen over the false filth you Indians have a habit of spreading against Pakistan. And ill use them again now ;)

And to be honest, you seem to have a lot more free time than I do to come here and post as much as you do so i'll just sum up a reply for you with some links:

Cross Border Terrorism:
Pak to give India proof of consulates' hand in terrorism (http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/may-2006/29/index13.php)

'why western companies dont want to invest in pakistan ' :
Dubai to invest over $30b in Pakistan (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/business/2006/June/business_June25.xml&section=business&col=) - total investment by Dubai may total up to $100 Billion!! Link (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/01/data/dbcoutm.cfm?SD=2003&ED=2007&R1=1&R2=1&CS=3&SS=2&OS=C&DD=0&OUT=1&C=564-534&S=NGDPDPC&RequestTimeout=120&CMP=0&x=63&y=6)

Pakistan and India, GDP per capita in US $$ (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2006/01/data/dbcoutm.cfm?SD=2003&ED=2007&R1=1&R2=1&CS=3&SS=2&OS=C&DD=0&OUT=1&C=564-534&S=NGDPDPC&RequestTimeout=120&CMP=0&x=63&y=6) Source IMF. Pakistan: $854. India: $769. By 2008 Pakistan will have GDP per capita of over a $1,000 making it a middle income country; unlike India which would still be a low income country.


I'll try and give a detailed reply when I have more time

[Sharif Smuggler]

Indians kissing . Lol
Look at you. On one hand you claim of paki-Israeli friendship and on the other hand your general advised Iran to nuke Israel.

I dont need to tell what liars pakan is full of.

and as for a separate thread no need. We have seen that " Look at Indians at Israeli forum" thread on ur beloved paki deaf and dumb forum.
And all the heads are now here.

And yah we all know what first world country Pakitan is where all people are bating in jewels. No need here. Go on your forum.

What proof do you have that a Pakistani general advised Iran to nuke Israel? And yes Pakistan is trying to improve relations with Israel but you don't see us kissing their arse like you Indians are doing. Pakistan has been fine for the last 59 years without any relations with Israel, i'm sure it will be fine for another 6 decades or so.

And whats PDF got to do with this? As for Pakistan, when have you heard any of us say its a first world country!? Its always you Indians that try and potray yourselves as some world power when you aren't even that powerful in your own backyard against Pakistan and China!



This thread is a strictly for India-Israel weapons purchase only.

Stay within your limits else you get kicked out of here like u wre at afm.

Then why did you involve Pakistan in this thread in the first place? As for AFM, I was banned because I posted a pic of Indians worshipping idols of Agni Missiles in a temple!! The mod was obviously an Indian.

[vepr]

[Sharif Smuggler]

What proof do you have that a Pakistani general advised Iran to nuke Israel?
'Take Israel hostage if attacked'
(http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961335508&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
Pakistan's former army chief says Iranian officials came to him for advice on heading off an attack on their nuclear facilities, and he in effect advised them to take a hostage - Israel.

Retired Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg said he suggested their government "make it clear that if anything happens to Iran, if anyone attacks it - it doesn't matter who it is or how it is attacked - that Iran's answer will be to hit Israel; the only target will be Israel."


And yes Pakistan is trying to improve relations with Israel
With friends like beg who needs enemies?:D

but you don't see us kissing their arse like you Indians are doing.
We pay for what we purchase. (unlike you). Secondly we have common enemy the islamic jehadi terrorists.

Pakistan has been fine for the last 59 years without any relations with Israel, i'm sure it will be fine for another 6 decades or so.
So why are you here?


And whats PDF got to do with this?
The source of all nonsense and nuisance.

As for Pakistan, when have you heard any of us say its a first world country!?
Now who is us here?


Its always you Indians that try and potray yourselves as some world power when you aren't even that powerful in your own backyard against Pakistan and China!
you need history lessons.


Then why did you involve Pakistan in this thread in the first place? As for AFM, I was banned because I posted a pic of Indians worshipping idols of Agni Missiles in a temple!! The mod was obviously an Indian.
Thats what you claim! You had dual ids didnt ya? Pretending to be Indian.

[Mediocrates]

I have limited patience for this. End it now please.

[vepr]

I have limited patience for this. End it now please.
Sorry
Nothing more from me on this one.

Vick@BRF posted from Janes

IAI and India's Defence Research and Development Organisation concluded a deal to jointly develop Barak-8 in New Delhi on 27 January 2006, after almost two years of negotiations.

The joint development programme is valued at about USD330 million, to be split equally between the two countries. Reports from Delhi suggest that Barak-8 and the EL/M-2248 radar will be fitted to the Indian Navy's new Project 15A destroyers.

[Arjunn]

R.T and shariff are the same, stop hijaking this thread.
if u soo badly want to say something go open a seperate thread R.t/shariff

and pls read the forum rules

[Sharif Smuggler]

I've made my point. So i'll stop too, as long as the Indians keep the Pakistan bashing to themselves!


R.T and shariff are the same, stop hijaking this thread.
if u soo badly want to say something go open a seperate thread R.t/shariff

and pls read the forum rules

By you posting that, its actually made me think that probably you and vepr are the same!! Lets ask the Mod to check all four of our IPs and locations shall we? ;) But PM him rather than destroying this thread any further.

And vepr, would you like me to post that pic of Indians worshipping missile idols in a temple here as well? And why the hell would i pretend to be Indian to do that!? Is that the only defence you people have, accusing everyone of having duel IDs? :rolleyes:

End of fighting!! Back to Thread............

[Arjunn]

I've made my point. So i'll stop too, as long as the Indians keep the Pakistan bashing to themselves!



By you posting that, its actually made me think that probably you and vepr are the same!! Lets ask the Mod to check all four of our IPs and locations shall we? ;) But PM him rather than destroying this thread any further.

And vepr, would you like me to post that pic of Indians worshipping missile idols in a temple here as well? And why the hell would i pretend to be Indian to do that!? Is that the only defence you people have, accusing everyone of having duel IDs? :rolleyes:

End of fighting!! Back to Thread............


sure lets ask the mod to check the ips and i really want to see the grease run in ur face when he finds that vepr and me are 2 diff people.