A Look at Life after Sharon

[NewsGuy]

A Look at Life after Sharon
By Michael Rand
www.IsraelForum.com

During his decades-long involvement in Israeli politics, Ariel Sharon certainly attracted supporters and detractors. The "Bulldozer," as he was called, evoked strong reactions from both friend and foe. In this article we will not review Sharon’s achievements and failures, but rather examine the Israeli military and political landscape after Sharon’s departure.

We begin with a look at the party established by Sharon just days before his massive stroke. The runaway success of "Kadima" was viewed by many as a reflection of the Israeli public’s vote of confidence in Sharon’s ability to lead Israel through several more forced expulsions of Jews from parts of the Jewish homeland. For his part, Sharon theorized that with expulsions he would be able to retain a few more square kilometers of land than the 1967 borders indicate.

Approximately or two years prior to his exit from Israel's political scene, Sharon concluded that the Palestinians will never really present a leadership that will abandon terrorism. He realized the Palestinian public largely supports terrorism, and that there would be no Palestinian government that is willing to stand in the way of that popular sentiment.

At the same time, Sharon believed that Israel could unilaterally determine its borders, because the rest of the world is interested in putting an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict even of Israel would wind up with one or two percent more land than sticking to the 1967 borders would yield.

To gain the goodwill of the international community, Sharon instructed the Israeli army to forcefully expel several thousand Jewish families. The goal was to provide a Jew-free zone for the Palestinians, which would not only please the international community, but the Israeli Left, as well.

Sharon was correct on all counts.

Black is White and Left is Center

Sharon’s Kadima party was able to gain the support of the Israeli Left, which could not care less about how much of the Jewish homeland would remain in the hands of the Jews, so long as large chunks of it would be awarded to the Palestinians who would suddenly abandon their Jihad and begin to live peacefully alongside the Israeli Left.

Faced with weak political leadership, the Left was only too glad to fall in line with Sharon who not only would make their dream of setting up a Palestinian state come true, but Sharon’s leadership would enable them to reinvent themselves not as Leftists, but as Centrists.

The new Kadima-Leftist alliance determined that if Hamas took a leadership role in the future Palestinian State, that would be fine. If Jihad Islami, al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and Palestinian al Qaeda would be in control of the future Palestinian army, that would be no problem either, because the Palestinians would suddenly turn to be just as peaceful as the Israeli Leftist academia’s longtime dream.

However, Sharon’s sudden second stroke left Kadima high and dry with unpopular politicians who are far from being the people’s first choice. Unlike Sharon, politicians like Ehud Olmert, Ze'ev Boim, Roni Bar-On, and Tzipi Livni are merely tag-along products of Israel’s political party system. Even Shimon Peres could not command the vote of enough Israelis to pretend to be popular enough to occupy a significant elected position.

Condoleezza Rice – Israeli Foreign Minister?

But, in truth, Israeli policy -- both foreign and military -- will not be determined by any of Kadima’s straw men. Instead, Israel will follow the instructions of the Bush administration to the letter. In the absence of Sharon, Condoleezza Rice is already functioning, in effect, as Israel’s foreign minister and Donald Rumsfeld is leading the IDF as its de facto commander-in-chief who will notify Olmert of the correct moves. Their Israeli counterparts have become mere window-dressing.

So far, those instructions are to expel the Jewish residents of 20 more settlements throughout Israel, which Olmert has begun to implement.

If, in fact, Kadima will win the elections, post-Sharon Israel will led by a dysfunctional hodge-podge of bureaucrats trading on their past association with Sharon and motivated by their willingness to unconditionally carry out the dictates of Washington.

At this time, it is unlikely that Labor or Likud will win. Amir Peretz is unable to emerge from his tailspin, because after the initial euphoria of his election to head of his party wore off, he was surprised to learn that most Israelis did not buy into his promise of turning Israel into an even bigger welfare state.

At Likud, Benjamin Netanyahu, dogged by his dismal record of performance as past Prime Minister and bogged down by the infighting of his party members, is finding it difficult to pull ahead. Netanyahu is barely able to articulate a clear political agenda, other than promising somewhat less drastic land handovers to the Palestinians than Kadima is set to deliver. Netanyahu knows that he had better do his political horse-trading quickly, or Likud will not have enough mandates to be attractive even as a marginal coalition partner to whichever party wins the election.

Going Out of Business Sale

Faced by the country’s pathetic inability to put forth a decent political candidate who can fill Ariel Sharon’s shoes, Israelis and Jews worldwide wonder why this is the case. The reason is a simple one: Israel has lost its will to survive and grow as a Jewish Zionist state and, instead, is content to transform itself into a quaint European-style shopping mall.

The main concern in Israel seems no longer to be how to lead the Jewish nation into the next millennium, but how to run a successful Going-Out-Of -Business sale of Jewish land to its sworn enemies.

It is not surprising, then, that Israel may very well decide to turn to politicians like Olmert and Livni who will function better as American and EU flunkies than as heads of the Jewish State.

* * *

What do you think about Israel's future after Sharon?

[Roland]

However, Sharon’s sudden second stroke left Kadima high and dry with unpopular politicians who are far from being the people’s first choice. An all too well known symptom of having had a longtime leading figure who bulldozed his team in a useful shape with no backstabbers - no person left for those big shoes.


But, in truth, Israeli policy -- both foreign and military -- will not be determined by any of Kadima’s straw men. Instead, Israel will follow the instructions of the Bush administration to the letter. In the absence of Sharon, Condoleezza Rice is already functioning, in effect, as Israel’s foreign minister and Donald Rumsfeld is leading the IDF as its de facto commander-in-chief who will notify Olmert of the correct moves. Their Israeli counterparts have become mere window-dressing.

So far, those instructions are to expel the Jewish residents of 20 more settlements throughout Israel, which Olmert has begun to implement. Is that so, Olmert on remote control?


If, in fact, Kadima will win the elections, post-Sharon Israel will led by a dysfunctional hodge-podge of bureaucrats trading on their past association with Sharon and motivated by their willingness to unconditionally carry out the dictates of Washington. Olmerts big chance, I'm curious if he manages to send out some sharonist signals. What size are his feet?


Faced by the country’s pathetic inability to put forth a decent political candidate who can fill Ariel Sharon’s shoes, Israelis and Jews worldwide wonder why this is the case. The reason is a simple one: Israel has lost its will to survive and grow as a Jewish Zionist state and, instead, is content to transform itself into a quaint European-style shopping mall. No, quatsch, it will only take some time until someone with cochones enters the scene.
And who knows, if Olmert continues Sharon's plan to unilaterally draw the borders, he might succeed in the end.

[Mira]

And who knows, if Olmert continues Sharon's plan to unilaterally draw the borders, he might succeed in the end.

I don't think so, Roland. Unilateral withdrawal would work if it were not for Jerusalem, and the world (including the US) is leaning towards a divided Jerusalem. I don't know if you've been there, but it is almost impossible to divide and the city has developed so much over the past thirty years that the area considered Jerusalem has spread and spread and spread. The security barrier itself is being constructed around the periphery of East Jerusalem. There is a very famous cemetary called the Mount of Olives where many prominent Israelis are buried which is technically located in East Jerusalem. There are well known neighborhoods adjacent to Hebrew University that the Arabs claim are part of East Jersualem.

It is without question, impossible to divide the Old City. The Arab quarter of the Old City is one store front away from the Jewish section. That city is completely intertwined. Unilateral withdrawl would not be so difficult in my mind, the concept of safe and secure borders could be relatively achieved, but the Jerusalem question is beyond me. Every nation is entitled to a defensible border, right? Well, it's beyond me how to create that in a shared Jerusalem today, but this is where the world bodies are headed.

[Toga]

Let's divide Berlin, Paris and Vienna first. Than, we can move on to Jerusalem.

[Roland]

Whoops! Where did I say "withdrawal"?? I mean draw unilaterally, maybe not for the sake of bartering another 0.5 squaremile, but to fix a status quo - not withdraw.
I have never been in Israel yet.

[Toga]

The Jews must learn from the Eurabian chutzpa. Nah, it is not a churzpa but their vicious, immoral, unethical and very ugly nature. They killed the majority of Jews in Europe, chased away the Jews and now they give the Jews recommendations how to survive among the 350M hostile Arabs. Had it been for the Eurabians there would be no Jews left on this planet.

Ohh..wait a moment, who did they build the most beautiful cathedrals to? Is it not incredible? As they were exterminating the Jews they went to churches to ask fogiveness from a Jew.

...and yet, these days their descendents feel that they have reached a new moral ground and can criticize the Jews after all they are no longer responsible for the atrocities of their fathers or all of a sudden carry the same DNA.

[Mira]

The Jews must learn from the Eurabian chutzpa. Nah, it is not a churzpa but their vicious, immoral, unethical and very ugly nature. They killed the majority of Jews in Europe, chased away the Jews and now they give the Jews recommendations how to survive among the 350M hostile Arabs. Had it been for the Eurabians there would be no Jews left on this planet.

Ohh..wait a moment, who did they build the most beautiful cathedrals to? Is it not incredible? As they were exterminating the Jews they went to churches to ask fogiveness from a Jew.

...and yet, these days their descendents feel that they have reached a new moral ground and can criticize the Jews after all they are no longer responsible for the atrocities of their fathers or all of a sudden carry a different DNA.

Toga, I really don't understand what you think people take away from your posts. What do you expect to achieve with them?

[Toga]

Whoops! Where did I say "withdrawal"?? I mean draw unilaterally, maybe not for the sake of bartering another 0.5 squaremile, but to fix a status quo - not withdraw.
I have never been in Israel yet.

Yeah! Is not it incredible? They have not been to Israel. They have a record of instituting the anti-Jewish laws in their country, they support the tyrannical Arab regimes with a Palestinian Arab extention hateful of Jews and Israel and yet, they give advices to Jews.

Nice!

[Toga]

Toga, I really don't understand what you think people take away from your posts. What do you expect to achieve with them?

Mirale, not trying to achieve anything but present them with the facts and the truth. Let them know how some of us feel about them after all we did not gas them but they gassed us.

Look Mira, it is ridiculous. They wanted to slaughter all Jews but they could not. They only slaughtered the majority of the European Jewry and these days they have the audacity to tell the Jews to divide Jerusalem. So much for their newly found morality.

[Mira]

Whoops! Where did I say "withdrawal"?? I mean draw unilaterally, maybe not for the sake of bartering another 0.5 squaremile, but to fix a status quo - not withdraw.
I have never been in Israel yet.

That's what Israel was attempting to do. They started to build the security barrier and they are in the process of removing the settlements that exist deep inside the West Bank under the assumption that there is no partner for peace on the other side to negotiate with and if and when there is, then the barrier can be moved. The world bodies have not accepted this, though the world is showing some confusion around the issue as well by interferring with the Palestinian elections and threatening to withhold aid if Hamas gains control of the government.

[Toga]

That's what Israel was attempting to do. They started to build the security barrier and they are in the process of removing the settlements that exist deep inside the West Bank under the assumption that there is no partner for peace on the other side to negotiate with and if and when there is, then the barrier can be moved. The world bodies have not accepted this, though the world is showing some confusion around the issue as well by interferring with the Palestinian elections and threatening to withhold aid if Hamas gains control of the government.

There are other countries that build the fences to protect its citizens and land. However, only the Israeli fence is being reported in the press. It is almost funny how the ethical and objective reporters who act responsibly all over the world become unethical and subjective when it comes to Israel.

[Mira]

Mirale, not trying to achieve anything but present them with the facts and the truth. Let them know how some of us feel about them after all we did not gas them but they gassed us.

Don't speak on my behalf please. I would be much more comfortable if from now on you started you posts with the words, "In my oppinion..."

[Mira]

There are other countries that build the fences to protect its citizens and land. However, only the Israeli fence is being reported in the press. It is almost funny how the ethical and objective reporters who act responsibly all over the world become unethical and subjective when it comes to Israel.

-the conflict is a flashpoint for the whole region.

-portions of the fence are being built in disputed areas.

-it is very difficult for people to weigh the competing needs of the two sides and so trying to figure out how much land is necessary to preserve Israeli security and how much land is needed by the Palestinians to develop their independence is open to a lot of speculation and propaganda.

[minusthejihad]

I think sometimes self-preservation requires you to do selfish things. Considering Israel is a country and not a person, it's government is entitled to do what is most beneficial for their people and think about your sworn enemies second.

[genghis_tom]

-portions of the fence are being built in disputed areas.

I understand and largely agree with the rest of your post, but there are several possible questions...
is not the whole of Israel a disputed area?
if the answer is no, then...
what about the rest of the fence, being built on undisputed areas?

[Mira]

I think sometimes self-preservation requires you to do selfish things. Considering Israel is a country and not a person, it's government is entitled to do what is most beneficial for their people and think about your sworn enemies second.I agree with you. People complain about the disruption in Palestinian life and economy that is created in those areas where the security barrier encroaches on areas claimed by the Palestinians. But ultimately, the question is on what side do we want our casualties and what kind of casualties are we comparing? A lot of people complain about how Palestinians in Qalqilia are being cut off from portions of their land and some go so far as to exaggerate the extent to which the residents there are being "caged in." But this intrustion needs to be weighed against the fact that the majority of the sucide bombers who entered Israel during the intifada were coming from that very village. I've been to the IDF security outpost that sits on a hill overlooking Qalqilia and the nearest Jewish village in Israel proper, which is only a couple of hundred meters away. . The two villages are within walking distance from each other. Prior to the creation of the fence, Israel used to monitor the border by patroling a dirt road that seperated the West Bank from the Jewish village by looking for foot prints in the dirt road. What's more, the Palestinians have the advantage of higher elevation points throughout the West Bank. It doesn't take a military genius to understand the strategic significance of maintaning the highest elevation points.

Is it a "land grab?" Maybe, but what kind of land are we talking about?

[minusthejihad]

I don't know and I don't really care. Just let me know when the dust settles. No matter what, I'll be defending whatever Israel needs to do to resolve the issue. Let the other 99% of the world worry about the Pals.

[Mira]

I understand and largely agree with the rest of your post, but there are several possible questions...
is not the whole of Israel a disputed area?

According to the Palestinian narrative, the answer is yes. But there is a pragmatic line of thinking among the Palestinians who believe in a staged approach, whereby the first stage is the creation of a Palestinian State and the second stage is to change the face of Israel through demographics. Eventually, when the Arabs outnumber the Jews by a large majority, the Palestinians can gain all of the land through the democratic process. Even individuals within Hamas have recently articulated this approach.

[Toga]

-the conflict is a flashpoint for the whole region.

-portions of the fence are being built in disputed areas.

-it is very difficult for people to weigh the competing needs of the two sides and so trying to figure out how much land is necessary to preserve Israeli security and how much land is needed by the Palestinians to develop their independence is open to a lot of speculation and propaganda.

The very existence of the Jewish sovereignity is disputed by the Arabs. I would gladly trade their superior position for the Jewish one.

1. They own 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass
2. They have the population of 350M people
3. They can have wars, tyrannical regimes, conflicts, etc. but unlike Israel none of the Arab states in under the existential threat.
4. Their land is floating on oil while the Jewish land is practically oil free.
5. They can dispatch terrorists to blow up the innocent Jewish civilians and the world shows the humane side of their serial murderers. They even give them awards in Hollywood let alone Eurabia.
6. They can initiate wars against Israel, lose land but can get it back during the negotiations.
7. The Jewish state has to give them jobs, water and electricity and yet they fire the missiles at the very power stations in Israel that they are benefiting from.
8. Jordan is an Arab Palestine. 70% of the Jordanian citizens claim the Palestinian Arab origin. They have a state. They just want another one without the Hashemite family.

The list can go on forever. The fact of the matter is Gaza is Jew-free and yet they fire at Israel daily. Just imagine what would have happened to Mexico if some Mexican organization dispatched its terrorists to the USA or fired the missiles at an American city.

Disputed, undisputed, Israel represents a meager 0.1% of the Middle Eastern landmass and it is also 20% Arab while the Arab world is for the most part Jew free and yet, they want more and more and more...because they don't want Israel.

[Toga]

I think sometimes self-preservation requires you to do selfish things. Considering Israel is a country and not a person, it's government is entitled to do what is most beneficial for their people and think about your sworn enemies second.

We could only dream it were the case. The Jews are more brutal to Jews than to the enemies. Take a look at the USA which took 18 people out pursuing the second man in command of Al-Qaeda. Also, take a look at Israel that took less care of its soldiers in Jenin than the innocent Arab population. As a result 13 Israeli boys were killed and the UN appointed a commission to investigate the "massaca".

Let us see if the UN appoints the commission to investigate the American response to terror in Pakistan?

[water]

i knew sharon had 2 son with his first wife and one died when he was just a boy
and then he remarried his wifes sister but as for as i knew they could not have chlidren
the news keeps saying Sharon children
does anyone know if he had children i am not a ware of

[Roland]

Yeah! Is not it incredible? They have not been to Israel. They have a record of instituting the anti-Jewish laws in their country, they support the tyrannical Arab regimes with a Palestinian Arab extention hateful of Jews and Israel and yet, they give advices to Jews.

Nice!
Stop calling me "they". I am not they. If you had read my post, you could not have failed to notice that I gave no advice at all - but I obviously triggered your knee-jerk blind selfrighteous dumbtalk hatespeech textblock mode.

[Mediocrates]

There is is nothing selfish about it. "Selfishness" on a national scale is a false invention. It it profoundly and fundamentally unethical to not put one's own people first. That is the basic purpose of the state. Would we starve ourselves or shiver in the dark so that others could eat warmly by the fire? In fact, societies that wreak disaster on their own people for some other ideological reason we call insane tyrannies like North Korea. You get Gulags, famine, civil war. Now before someone leap on this and call it Libertarianism, it's not. A society has a responsibility to making sensible rational decisions that don't overtly imperil its own citizens for little or no benefit.

[Roland]

That's what Israel was attempting to do. They started to build the security barrier and they are in the process of removing the settlements that exist deep inside the West Bank under the assumption that there is no partner for peace on the other side to negotiate with and if and when there is, then the barrier can be moved. The world bodies have not accepted this, though the world is showing some confusion around the issue as well by interferring with the Palestinian elections and threatening to withhold aid if Hamas gains control of the government.
The security fence AFAIK seems to work. One of Sharon's successful major projects.
Leaving Gaza - sorry, if one of you has hurt feelings about that - was IMO even a bigger and better coup: now there is something the locals can officially label "Palestine" and show the world if and how they can establish peace and order and a working gov't. I'm curious. It is a running experiment and Israel's territory is surely better defendable from a military pov.
And it is not that much unilaterally since it is exactly what the pals wanted all the time.

[Toga]

Stop calling me "they". I am not they. If you had read my post, you could not have failed to notice that I gave no advice at all - but I obviously triggered your knee-jerk blind selfrighteous dumbtalk hatespeech textblock mode.

You are very fortunate I called you "they". Do you want me to remind you how your fathers were calling my fathers?

[NewsGuy]

An all too well known symptom of having had a longtime leading figure who bulldozed his team in a useful shape with no backstabbers - no person left for those big shoes.
Right, I suppose that could be considered an achievement for Sharon in a sense. (It certainly was something that Netanyahu was not able to accomplish). But it seems that once the old timers are gone from the scene, no others have the charisma or the following to lead.


Is that so, Olmert on remote control?
Yes, most definitely.


Olmerts big chance, I'm curious if he manages to send out some sharonist signals. What size are his feet?
So far, Olmert has ordered the forced expulsion of the Jews of the Hebron marketplace and has also ordered preparations for expelling the residents of about 20 other Jewish settlements. These are strong signals to the US and to Israeli Leftists that he can be counted on to use the army against Jewish families to provide a Jew-free country for the Palestinians.


No, quatsch, it will only take some time until someone with cochones enters the scene.
And who knows, if Olmert continues Sharon's plan to unilaterally draw the borders, he might succeed in the end.
It all depends on what is decided in Washington.

[MGB8]

The theory (hat tip: debka) has been that Sharon and Bush agreed to let Hamas win, so as to make it clear to the world that there is no negotiating partner.

That is one advantage of Hamas - they are much more honest than Fatah. (Tangentially: I believe them when they say they don't want to kill Jews just to kill Jews... they want to kill Jews because they believe all of the Palestine Mandate is Muslim land, dar al-islam, and cannot become Dar al-Harb. So the Jews need to be ethnically cleansed or killed.)

That would allow Israel to continue to unilaterally create facts on the ground and be more aggressive in fighting the terrorist groups - political slack. Regardless, I still believe that the big war with the Pal Arabs is coming, regardless of who is in charge. Sooner or later they will succeed in mega-terror attack, and Israel will respond accordingly.

Notice that Peres and Olmert now say that they want to have negotiations, whereas Hamas has repeated the "three no's": no recognition, no negotiation, no peace, and Hamas may well win elections outright, or if not, they will be so powerful that either the Fatah will have to take them on to negotiate (Pal Arab civil war, which is also happenening) or not negotiate (and be the "bad guys" internationally).

[Roland]

You are very fortunate I called you "they". Do you want me to remind you how your fathers were calling my fathers?
IDIOT. Don't waste our time trying.
Since you do not know anything about my fathers, you can not know that my fathers did not call your fathers anything at all.
I have enough of your insulting raving.
If you are not done yet, start with if and how I could get back what the Nazis took of my ancestors, or just where to find their bones.

[Mediocrates]

The theory (hat tip: debka) has been that Sharon and Bush agreed to let Hamas win, so as to make it clear to the world that there is no negotiating partner.




What makes you think her royal majesty Condi Rice won't swoop down and make demands then like she does now? That's an awfully close game to play chicken like that. It's not unimaginable that the EU & co. just turns around and says you have to bargain with what you've got. Or if they rip a page from their own playbook, just elect more socialists to the government and cave, as the case may be.

[NewsGuy]

The theory (hat tip: debka) has been that Sharon and Bush agreed to let Hamas win, so as to make it clear to the world that there is no negotiating partner.

That reminds me of a point I've often thought about -

Leaders like Sharon (and many others) tend to treat their voters as infants. If there was a big-picture reason for expelling the Jews of Gaza, let's hear it outright. Why the secrecy? If the purpose was to expose the Palestinians as a terrorist nation, they should have said so. If the purpose was to hold on to more West Bank land, again-- they should have said so. I don't think they need to kowtow to the Arabs any longer, so why not just come out and say what the real reason for handing over more Jewish land to the Arab terrorists is all about.

[Roland]

Why? To not spoil the surprise :D
Yes - leaders tend to think of themselves as visionaries, too.
They might see a bigger picture in their dreams - or they might actually have planned the bigger picture meticulously. In Sharon's case I'd tend to the latter.
There seem to be three truths:
1. The publicly availabe information on a need-to-know basis.
2. What the media make of it and what we all think and speculate.
3. The masterplan, available to insiders only.
I am pretty sure Sharon's agenda - truth #3 - has not yet been completed with the gaza withdrawal (I still chew on "unilaterally"). BTW I guess #3 is available to Olmert and he just proceedes, that is why I was surprised to read that you think Olmert to be a U.S. puppet.
If too much of #3 switches to #1, the whole plan might fail. If there IS a bigger picture reason, a failure would be catastrophic (land gone, voters gone, party gone, publicity gone, place in history gone, more dead civilians). If so, it is reason enough to feed #2 - as a diversion, maybe. Additionally, news in #1 get reflected in #2 (that is what voters think). Unfortunate leaking from #3 to #1 might change the desired outcome (all votes for Kadima) of the election.
Well, there is one alternative: Do you think Sharon is a big gambler beyond reason?

[Science0fTime]

Roland,

To Israel, Sharon was the rider of the white horse. His last play was to establish definition. Unlike Gen. Patton, Sharon knew his days were few.

So Sharon drew a line. With definition war can be brought about justly through enforcement, by any means. This is a strategic tactic. One cannot win a war by embracing the tactics of the enemy. Sharon knew we are better than the enemy and instead can bring the enemy into an established battleground. In this area it can be seen the enemy has no ability, but no other choice.

A war based on revenge, Pearl Harbour or 911, is a war based on hate. The percieved wars may have appeared over, but because of the foundation of the war, is not. The next step then is to establish terms for peace based on agreement. When the party in agreement cannot comply with the terms as were in agreement, then this party is in violation. So the foundation for war, or enforcement, becomes legitimate, by any means. The enemy will cease to be by one of two means. Upholding the agreement as formerly established, or by complete annihalation.

Here is an analogy:

You are at a restaurant with a young couple. The woman cannot restrain her abusive mouth (Iran), at some point you decide action is necessary as her husband (its citizens) will not step forward to intervene and stop this public display. As a gentleman you will not tell insult or harm the woman. Insted you say madam, please refrain from such language in a public place, for if you do not I will do great harm to your husband. At this point the husband, (the citizens) fearing imminent great bodily harm WILL find a way to silence this woman.

Sharon has established boundaries for peace or justified war by entering into negotiations and forming an agreement. No compliance to any agreement shall be seen. This you know is true, but there is a problem. Ms Condi Rice is a snake, a mamba. There is no US power behind Israel.

Myself, upon a signed agreement with Saudi Arabia and Iran, I would give Israel our finest Trident Submarine.

Sharon made his last military decision in the name of Jehovah, now the next in line must understand this strategy.

[golani]

I don't think so, Roland. Unilateral withdrawal would work if it were not for Jerusalem, and the world (including the US) is leaning towards a divided Jerusalem. I don't know if you've been there, but it is almost impossible to divide and the city has developed so much over the past thirty years that the area considered Jerusalem has spread and spread and spread. The security barrier itself is being constructed around the periphery of East Jerusalem. There is a very famous cemetary called the Mount of Olives where many prominent Israelis are buried which is technically located in East Jerusalem. There are well known neighborhoods adjacent to Hebrew University that the Arabs claim are part of East Jersualem.

It is without question, impossible to divide the Old City. The Arab quarter of the Old City is one store front away from the Jewish section. That city is completely intertwined. Unilateral withdrawl would not be so difficult in my mind, the concept of safe and secure borders could be relatively achieved, but the Jerusalem question is beyond me. Every nation is entitled to a defensible border, right? Well, it's beyond me how to create that in a shared Jerusalem today, but this is where the world bodies are headed.

Mira,do not think that much
Roland has never been to Israel
He thinks that Israel has a landmass equal to France and that Judea Samaria("west bank") surface is equal to Siberia
He is quite unaware that israel surface is 2/3 of Belgium and west bank is 2 times Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
No,Roland like all leftists wants dead israelis,dead Jews and triumphant palestinians in order to let mayhem, fleas ,dirt and scorpions reign supreme

[Roland]

Mira,do not think that much
Roland has never been to Israel
He thinks that Israel has a landmass equal to France and that Judea Samaria("west bank") surface is equal to Siberia
He is quite unaware that israel surface is 2/3 of Belgium and west bank is 2 times Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
No,Roland like all leftists wants dead israelis,dead Jews and triumphant palestinians in order to let mayhem, fleas ,dirt and scorpions reign supremeWhat the hell makes you think that?
I'm very much aware of Israels geography (although I was not there personally yet. Hint: They teach geography at school here) and I surely don't want anybody dead.
You, golani, not knowing me at all, call me leftist wanting dead jews, others call me (or my ancestors) nazi. Why? Are you insulting me for the fun of it? What is wrong with you?
WTF is wrong with you?

[CLL1709]

As a citizen of America and a Christian, it would by presumptuous to say much to the State of Israel regarding their defense or political decisions, but I will anyway. Because certainly, the land of Israel and Judaism is the bedrock of my religion and I care what happens there and voice that often. I resent the fact that so many of the areas important to Christianity have been turned over to the Muslims, i.e., Palestinians, that historically have no claim to them but what has been trumped up by Arafat and his crew, even claiming to be descendants of the Canaanite's for pity sakes.

Since it all goes back to the demands of Islam intent on overrunning the world, they obviously will never be satisfied with anything but overrunning Israel. Israel being small and tired of conflict, has made, in my opinion, ill advised decisions on giving up land captured during conflicts forced upon them by their neighbors. It only follows that if it is alright that Mohammad's people took over the land of Israel, then it is alright that the Jews took it back.

Regardless of the teachings of Jesus Christ, much of it hinged on the sermon on the mount, "blessed is the peacemaker", stuff, that is all well and good, but He also said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to G-d what is G-d's." that says to me there can be a division between politics and religion. He was also speaking to a people subjugated to Rome, giving comfort to them for being in a situation they could not control. I do not believe He meant them, or us, to commit suicide while "loving our enemies" or being peacemakers, or being meek!

I fail to understand why "the West" seems to be sliding into the Palestinian camp rather than telling this murderous bunch that when they stop attacking Israel talks can be held regarding establishing their state, and not until that occurs. Israel has been the one that gives and gives until I fear there will not be much left. Perhaps it is our dependence on Arab oil. So I say to my own government, how much is Arab oil worth? Selling our souls and selling out Israel for it is a disgrace, and I will continue to say it even though politically many are unwilling to regard it as that. There will be an end to the supply, but by that time we will all be subjugated to Islam.

Why is this so damned hard for people to see?

[Science0fTime]

I fail to understand why "the West" seems to be sliding into the Palestinian camp rather than telling this murderous bunch that when they stop attacking Israel talks can be held regarding establishing their state, and not until that occurs. Israel has been the one that gives and gives until I fear there will not be much left. Perhaps it is our dependence on Arab oil. So I say to my own government, how much is Arab oil worth? Selling our souls and selling out Israel for it is a disgrace, and I will continue to say it even though politically many are unwilling to regard it as that. There will be an end to the supply, but by that time we will all be subjugated to Islam.

Why is this so damned hard for people to see?

CLL!
This is the problem! The leaders of "the West" represent falsehood. So it will be seen by history that they simply do nothing during this time period. They do NOT care about what Israel really is. They are not selling out; but rather by actions, and circumstance, it can be seen: "Just what they really are composed of!"

Now Israel is small geographically, but underneath is an oil reserve coveted by any country. So who is left to challenge this? Anyone power! Now is being spoke of on radio is Sharon was corrupted by power. This was not so! His hands were tied, you cannot argue this.

The Christians are much more concerned with the physical objects, or Holy items, and such. This is a great mistake! You see every Jew is a "potential" Christian. The time is simply not yet, which is OK. Who is not with you, will be against you, and in time all the Christian's will need all the help they can get. So a potential Christian, or a Jew, is a friend indeed. And now you see this! Nothing exists for the immediate moment. Most Christian's just care about a rock or a piece of wood regarded as Holy, and yes well artifacts may be considered just that, how can any rock or piece of wood compare with the soul of any human given the gift of life by Jehovah?

Yet human life is not counted value, just numbers. Have you ever held a man, and watched the life leave his body? When you do this, you will not be thinking about a rock or limb. We believe both that Christ will arrive in his time, and when one has the real thing, who needs the artifact of a memory!

This is a time for action! Yet there is no one here! And no one will be.