All European Life Died In Auschwitz

[drdon]

By Sebastian Villar Rodriguez - Spanish Writer, September 23, 2005.

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.

In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.

And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their na?ve hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.



http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Rodriguez-2005-09-23.asp
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............

A little rough on the generalizations but raises some interesting points.

[KSO]

a.Blah Blah Blah.

b.I bet you if this fuker lived in 44 he'll be the maharaja of genocide.

c. who the is this idiot?, i read this idiocy 6 moths ago, never found anything else he wrote.

[Annaliese]

Israel Insider (http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/6683.htm) published it with this caveat: There have been reports questioning its authenticity, since the journalist has not been identified or traced. Read with a grain of salt. The 'Talk Back' comments are definitely worth reading, in my opinion.



This blog (http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/004843.html) published it with even more caveats, but the final post to it is: "the old fake but accurate ploy?" Diabolical... Heh!



Hineni (http://www.hineni.org/Thoughts_views_view.asp?id=87&category=18&CatName=Thought%20of%20the%20Day) published it as their 'The thought for the day.'



I agree with drdon that it's A little rough on the generalizations but raises some interesting points.

[tandem]

a.Blah Blah Blah.

b.I bet you if this fuker lived in 44 he'll be the maharaja of genocide.

c. who the is this idiot?, i read this idiocy 6 moths ago, never found anything else he wrote.
i think this guy is real, a spanish journalist, probably using an alias after what happened to theo van gogh.

[Annaliese]

i think this guy is real, a spanish journalist, probably using an alias after what happened to theo van gogh.

I should have added that as well as my belief that he probably has to use other aliases because of the obvious fear of deadly reprisal.

[KSO]

i think this guy is real, a spanish journalist, probably using an alias after what happened to theo van gogh.

Cool A stupid monkey with a nomme de guerre is better than a regular stupid monkey.

[Luke90]

A little rough on the generalizations
True, in much the same way that you could say the BNP is "a little rough on the generalisations". He's blaming the problems of a country of 40 million people on 500,000. He doesn't even attempt to qualify or moderate his stereotyping. No wonder he's embarassed to put his real name to it.

[Annaliese]

No wonder he's embarassed to put his real name to it.

Embarrassed? Do you know what the Islamists did to Theo van Gogh?

[Luke90]

My point is that it's a ridiculous and hate-ridden article. Regardless of any threat from Islamists he should still be embarassed to claim it.

[Annaliese]

Presuming the author is actually Spanish, I read his piece as bitter and it does generalize, nevertheless, I maintain that it still has value. The posted comments (especially @ IsraelInsider) are also thought-provoking.

[KSO]

To summit the article in a couple of words
Auschwitz was a good idea, but we killed the wrong people.

so fack him.

[Gilgamesh]

My point is that it's a ridiculous and hate-ridden article. Regardless of any threat from Islamists he should still be embarassed to claim it.

I find a lot of truth in that article.

I must remind you Luke, we are Jews. Different from Christians who suppose to "turn the other cheack" It's against our ways to tolerate evil, but to resist it. We are Jews, as such we find no wrong in hating evil, infact we are obligated to hate it. Terrorist Islam, which victimise Women and Children, enjoys mass murder and large scale mutilation, whose all of thier leaders, from Mubarak to the Saudi Princeses all bath to their necks in a pool of their own people blood. There is no more good in Islam. It turned evil by the curroption of their followers.

Islamists are people who have no tolerance to any doncrine or idea or anything different from what their curropt clerics leacture them.
What ever function Islam has served humanity a thousand years ago, in vanquishing paganism and human scrifices once common for the region, now Islam has turned to become exactly what it once fought against. Islam delived some degree of progress to the region and then it froze and started to move thier people backwards.

And yes, I do believe the Islamist are far greater percentage of the Muslem population then others assume. I think that Hammas victory in the PA elections are only a part of a greater phenomena in the Muslem world, rather then a locolized event which has no real relation to violance.

[Annaliese]

Auschwitz was a good idea, but we killed the wrong people.

WTF? I didn't read it that way at all. In re-reading it, however, I can see how one could (mis)perceive it, but I believe you have missed the point.

[Annaliese]

I find a lot of truth in that article.

Toda raba. So do I. :)


And yes, I do believe the Islamist are far greater percentage of the Muslem population then others assume.

No question about that! The Islamists are going to kill us all if the world doesn't wake up and face facts rather than perseverating with their nutty PC views.

[Ossian]

By Sebastian Villar Rodriguez - Spanish Writer, September 23, 2005.

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.

In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.

And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their na?ve hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.



http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Rodriguez-2005-09-23.asp
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............

A little rough on the generalizations but raises some interesting points.


Err i think this guy should lose the 'we', "Not in my name" ..etc etc

[Gilgamesh]

Toda raba. So do I. :) Ein Be'ad Ma! :)

No question about that! The Islamists are going to kill us all if the world doesn't wake up and face facts rather than perseverating with their nutty PC views.

The "nutty PC views" maybe the begining of the end for Europe. It marks decadence and demise. Perhaps it is time for Europe to vanish the same way the Greeks and Romans have gone. These great civilizations were curropted and assimilated to oblivion by far inferior civilizations. Modern Europeans are the decedents of the Barbarians who destroyed the Roman civilization. Now, Europe is flooded by a new wave of Barbarians and apporches it doom... History has it odd habbit to repeat itself.

All we Jews (and Americans) have to fear now, is not to get too close and get stuck in the undercurrents made by whirepool of sinking Europe. Decadent false PC ideas are such undercurrents by defenition, as it shapes public opinion and political and judical fasion.

[Annaliese]

The "nutty PC views" maybe the begining of the end for Europe. It marks decadence and demise. Perhaps it is time for Europe to vanish the same way the Greeks and Romans have gone. These great civilizations were curropted and assimilated to oblivion by far inferior civilizations. Modern Europeans are the decedents of the Barbarians who destroyed the Roman civilization. Now, Europe is flooded by a new wave of Barbarians and apporches it doom... History has it odd habbit to repeat itself.

Once again we agree.

As far as I'm concerned, Europe is Eurabia already and, yes, history does repeat itself ... especially since, apparently, they have learned nothing from their past.

[Luke90]

Auschwitz was a good idea, but we killed the wrong people.
I didn't read it quite like that, but his attempt to blame most of his societies ills on a particular, very small minority certainly has parallels with the holocaust.

And yes, I do believe the Islamist are far greater percentage of the Muslem population then others assume.
But even you are implicitly accepting that not all muslims are the same. Something which the article fails to even consider.

I must remind you Luke, we are Jews. Different from Christians who suppose to "turn the other cheack" It's against our ways to tolerate evil, but to resist it. We are Jews, as such we find no wrong in hating evil, infact we are obligated to hate it.
Fair enough but largely irrelevant. The article (as far as I know) wasn't written by a Jew and I'm not a Christian.

I've got more to say but I have to go now. Back later.

[Annaliese]

* Delete * :D :cool:

[Gilgamesh]

Err i think this guy should lose the 'we', "Not in my name" ..etc etc
The Nazis done the deed, the worst crime in human history, but they could have never been THAT efficiant and succesful in rounding up and delivering all of us Jews, without passive and active involvement of the majority of common everyday Europeans.

Common Europeans who were not all of the Gestapo, were those who exposed hiding Jews. Common Europeans streamlined and colloborated with the Nazi ragime against us Jews. Often, not because they had somthing significant to win, but out of pure anti semetism. Nazi Germany could have NOT genocide the Jewish people in such masses without European approving public opinion.

As for the role of Britain... I've to say 3 things to you.
1. The wired war - Although the British empire declared war on Germany in 3rd September 1939, but avoided any significant actions of war till June 1940, the invasion of France. Full French-British invasion of Germany with the aim of ragime change could have been succesfuly prevented the second world war.

2. Stoping or preventing the Holocaust was never declared as a war objective by the allies. More-ever, the Allied made great endevours to contradict Nazi propaganda as if the allies fight in behalf of the Jews. To this day, no "ally" of Israel would secrify blood and limb for us, as they done for Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait and others. The holocaust was largely stopped by of the Soviets. "Stoping facist atrocities against civilians" was one of their leading declared war objective. (Although the Soviets have never admitted the holocaust focused against Jews).

3. The Brits enabled the Holocaust de-facto, by barring every possible escape route for us Jews. The British mandate in the land of Israel,used all kind of excuses to prevent Jewish Aliya (immigration) into Israel. The holocaust could have dramaticly reduced or prevented, had we Jews got a place to shelter in, a land and an army to defend us. Both the British occupation made great efforts to prevent.

The claim the British empire wanted to appease the Arabs proved false in two occasions.
1. The Arabs have openly joined the Nazi cause, and begun several revolts against the Brits. Both in Iraq and in the land of Israel.
2. British restrictions continued for 3 years after the war has ended.
The Brits were willing to lock Jewish refugees in concentration camps in Europe rather then to allow them to immigrate to the land of Israel.

[Annaliese]

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679772685/102-6330390-8180159?v=glance&n=283155) is a great book, in my opinion.

Also, to my everlasting shame, America turned away Jews and probably never would have entered WWII w/o Pearl Harbor. However, I want to add that my family (all Jewish) has been in America since the early 1800's and all the men joined the army and/or air force as soon as they could; some served in North Africa and 2 in Europe.

[Roland]

1. The wired war - Although the British empire declared war on Germany in 3rd September 1939, but avoided any significant actions of war till June 1940, the invasion of France.
UK was insignificantly busy with sinking german submarines from sep'39 on.

[Gilgamesh]

UK was insignificantly busy with sinking german submarines from sep'39 on.
True, the Empire have also sucessfuly engaged the Graf Spee, yet in at least two fronts (Norway and France) the Brits (and the French) had soldiers and were relactant to engage the Germans during that period, rightfuly called the "wired war" or "Phoney war". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War)

BTW, Don't change the subject, German. The subject was the "we" mention at the article which opened this thread, and Ossian reaction, as if as a Brit he got no part in the holocaust.

Again, the holocaust happened because of anti semetic aspects of European culture. The eliminationry anti semetism, is a European cultural phenomena (which the Arabs now employ against all Westerners). Fighting it hadn't yet begun.

[Luke90]

BTW, Don't change the subject, German.
He didn't change the subject, he just responded to one of your points which seems reasonable.

The subject was the "we" mention at the article which opened this thread, and Ossian reaction, as if as a Brit he got no part in the holocaust.

Is it really fair to hold people responsible for something they had no control over? Something which probably (I don't know Ossian's age) happened before he was born is surely not his responsibility. I don't know how Judaism views that. I know the Old Testament says something about God punishing children and children's children etc. but does that also apply between ourselves.

The "nutty PC views" maybe the begining of the end for Europe.
I think there will always be limits to tolerance and I find it unlikely that any country will ultimately "tolerate itself to death". There's other issues I worry much more about.

As far as I'm concerned, Europe is Eurabia already and, yes, history does repeat itself ... especially since, apparently, they have learned nothing from their past.
I hope we've learnt not to blame insignificant minorities in our population for our problems. On the evidence of this article we haven't.

[Annaliese]

I hope we've learnt not to blame insignificant minorities in our population for our problems. On the evidence of this article we haven't.

Which insignificant minorities are you referring to? The ones that flew planes into buildings? The ones that blow up innocents on purpose? The ones that the insignifcant majority likes to pretend will do them no harm? Did you enjoy July 7, 2005? There's plenty more where that came from.

[Toga]

a.Blah Blah Blah.

b.I bet you if this fuker lived in 44 he'll be the maharaja of genocide.

c. who the is this idiot?, i read this idiocy 6 moths ago, never found anything else he wrote.


...you must be enjoying Canada in the winter....

[Toga]

My point is that it's a ridiculous and hate-ridden article. Regardless of any threat from Islamists he should still be embarassed to claim it.

...and what are you saying?

Your kind has always been afraid of facts.

Europe has indeed died at Auschwitz.

[Annaliese]

...you must be enjoying Canada in the winter....

:D :D :D

[Toga]

To summit the article in a couple of words
Auschwitz was a good idea, but we killed the wrong people.

so fack him.

very poor inference but what else can we expect from a delirious Russian Armenian?

[Luke90]

Which insignificant minorities are you referring to? The ones that flew planes into buildings? The ones that blow up innocents on purpose? The ones that the insignifcant majority likes to pretend will do them no harm? Did you enjoy July 7, 2005? There's plenty more where that came from.
But he's not just talking about terrorism and violence. He's blaming 1% of the population for all of Spain's social problems.
I have no problem with people suggesting that we should deal harshly with radical islamists who advocate, plan and implement terrorism and violence but this article is saying that all of Europe's muslims are stupid, ignorant, intolerant, extremist, destructive, lazy, scrounging, murderous, backward, filthy, violent, death-obsessed, criminal child-killers (all descriptions taken directly from the article, just reordered and paraphrased to make sense as a list). The contrasts he makes between Jews and Muslims are as if he's comparing gods to demons.
That sort of unmitigated hate-fuelled stereotyping is indefensible.

[Annaliese]

That's not the way other people, including me, interpreted it.

So, you did enjoy July 7, 2005? Brace yourself ...

[Luke90]

Toga,
Have you got anything sensible to say or do you just want to come up with incredibly witty insults. I've had enough of you blindly accusing me of anti-semitism which I'm sure is coming up again soon. You seem incapable of having a sensible discussion about this subject because as soon as Europe is mentioned you can't resist the temptation to just spout off about how much you hate every man, woman and child living there. Get over it.

[Luke90]

That's not the way other people, including me, interpreted it.
How else do you interpret...
They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

[Mediocrates]

My relatives ran from Europe long before that. I mean how bad would your life have to be to stick a suitcase, a ticket and all of the 5 dollars you ever had in your life in the hands of your child and send them off alone to another continent; no language, no job and only the slightest relationship to people already there? And you planned on never seeing them again? How messed would it have to be? How violent, how oppressed, how poor. How worried would you have to be that the goyim would come to your house, burn it down, kill you, rape your wife? Antisemites want to whine that Jews were behind communism? Well why the hell not? What did they have to lose? If I'm going down, sure as hell the next damn kulak comes through the door is too.

[Toga]

But he's not just talking about terrorism and violence. He's blaming 1% of the population for all of Spain's social problems.
I have no problem with people suggesting that we should deal harshly with radical islamists who advocate, plan and implement terrorism and violence but this article is saying that all of Europe's muslims are stupid, ignorant, intolerant, extremist, destructive, lazy, scrounging, murderous, backward, filthy, violent, death-obsessed, criminal child-killers (all descriptions taken directly from the article, just reordered and paraphrased to make sense as a list). The contrasts he makes between Jews and Muslims are as if he's comparing gods to demons.
That sort of unmitigated hate-fuelled stereotyping is indefensible.

Forget about the Muslims. What he is saying that you Euros are vile. You Euros are savages. Moreover, you killed off the cream de la cream of this mankind. You Euros were not only extremely hateful but also very stupid. He is right.

[Luke90]

So, you did enjoy July 7, 2005? Brace yourself ...
As I've said, it's perfectly possible to be strongly against extremist Islamism without lumping together and hating all muslims.

[Luke90]

You seem incapable of having a sensible discussion about this subject because as soon as Europe is mentioned you can't resist the temptation to just spout off about how much you hate every man, woman and child living there.
Forget about the Muslims. What he is saying that you Euros are vile. You Euros are savages. Moreover, you killed off the cream de la cream of this mankind. You Euros were not only extremely hateful but also very stupid. He is right.
Toga goes right ahead and proves my point for me.
Mods, surely this kind of attack on an entire continent's people is unacceptable?

[Toga]

Toga,
Have you got anything sensible to say or do you just want to come up with incredibly witty insults. I've had enough of you blindly accusing me of anti-semitism which I'm sure is coming up again soon. You seem incapable of having a sensible discussion about this subject because as soon as Europe is mentioned you can't resist the temptation to just spout off about how much you hate every man, woman and child living there. Get over it.

Sorry to be factual. See, you have already acquired a trait of creating a make belief and pretending it to be real. The fact of the matter is the European record regarding Jews is very bloody. The Europeans killed off the majority of Jews. Europe exported violence, murder and destruction all over the world. Hatred of Jews is an inherent European trait.

So, now instead of Jews you have Muslims/Arabs. Hopefully, you will treat them better that you treated the Jews. Unlike the Jews who obediently marched into the gas chambers shocked at the cruelty of European evil the Muslims will fight you back and good for them.

[Luke90]

Sorry to be factual. See, you have already acquired a trait of creating a make belief and pretending it to be real. The fact of the matter is the European record regarding Jews is very bloody. The Europeans killed off the majority of Jews.
Now you're accusing me of holocaust denial? If you want to suggest that I make up lies you'd be more convincing if you found an actual example.

[Annaliese]

How else do you interpret...
They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

1. You have used the NEWS function when this is obiviously an opinion piece. You might want to use the QUOTE function;

2. Please read what Medio posted above;

3. I took the article in its entirety and have already posted how I see it. I believe that was on page 1 of this thread.

4. Instead of whining about Toga, just get over it yourself. We've had to for centuries.

[Annaliese]

Now you're accusing me of holocaust denial? If you want to suggest that I make up lies you'd be more convincing if you found an actual example.

Where did Toga accuse you of Holocaust denial?

[Toga]

Now you're accusing me of holocaust denial? If you want to suggest that I make up lies you'd be more convincing if you found an actual example.

Look, you are one of those irrelevant Euros who think that all of a sudden they discovered morality. Yeah, right!

[Toga]

1. You have used the NEWS function when this is obiviously an opinion piece. You might want to use the QUOTE function;

2. Please read what Medio posted above;

3. I took the article in its entirety and have already posted how I see it. I believe that was on page 1 of this thread.

4. Instead of whining about Toga, just get over it yourself. We've had to for centuries.

Don't worry! The demographic changes we are seeing in Europe will have a profound effect on it until the end of times. They deserve everything they get and more. Those who eat the Jews - die!

[Luke90]

1. You have used the NEWS function when this is obiviously an opinion piece. You might want to use the QUOTE function;
I normally use News for external articles and Quote for internal text from other forum users. It seems logical to me.

2. Please read what Medio posted above;
I read it. It didn't seem very relevant to the article. I don't need any convincing that Jews were horrifically treated in Europe.

3. I took the article in its entirety and have already posted how I see it. I believe that was on page 1 of this thread.
So that's your last word on it and precludes all further discussion?

4. Instead of whining about Toga, just get over it yourself. We've had to for centuries.
I have to defend myself against his accusations which is getting very tiresome. Since this is a moderated forum I hoped something might be done about his attacks on europeans. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that two wrongs make a right.

[Toga]

I don't subscribe to the philosophy that two wrongs make a right.

Please, the Jews will never come anywhere close to the European level of cruelty and brutality. The European evil is in a class of itself. So, please don't compare us as there is nothing to compare.

[Luke90]

Where did Toga accuse you of Holocaust denial?
It seemed to me be implied in what he said but maybe I'm just getting over-sensitive to him. I suppose it's down to him to explain whether that's what he meant or not.

[Toga]

It seemed to me be implied in what he said but maybe I'm just getting over-sensitive to him. I suppose it's down to him to explain whether that's what he meant or not.

You are dead wrong again!

[Luke90]

Please, the Jews will never come anywhere close to the European level of cruelty and brutality. The European evil is in a class of itself. So, please don't compare us as there is nothing to compare.
I want to make it clear to everyone else that I wasn't making any such comparison. I just didn't think that the fact that Jews have been persecuted for centuries excused Toga's attacks on me and europeans. It's irrelevant.

You are dead wrong again!
Fair enough. Sorry to have misunderstood you.

[Annaliese]

I normally use News for external articles and Quote for internal text from other forum users. It seems logical to me.

Interesting. I was told NOT to use News unless I was quoting a news article.


I read it. It didn't seem very relevant to the article. I don't need any convincing that Jews were horrifically treated in Europe.

Apparently, Medio is too subtle for you. He almost never spells things out on the forum.


So that's your last word on it and precludes all further discussion?

If there's something else posted that I believe I can contribute to, I will. Nothing about that precludes further discussion.


I have to defend myself against his accusations which is getting very tiresome. Since this is a moderated forum I hoped something might be done about his attacks on europeans. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that two wrongs make a right.

um

Medio is a moderator. You realize, of course, he has posted here. Why don't you either alert on the posts you find offensive and/or PM the mods with your concerns?

[Luke90]

Annaliese,
Could we just ignore Toga and carry on from where we were before he joined in?

[Luke90]

Apparently, Medio is too subtle for you. He almost never spells things out on the forum.
That's true. I rarely get him.

Medio is a moderator. You realize, of course, he has posted here. Why don't you either alert on the posts you find offensive and/or PM the mods with your concerns?
I know. I suppose that might be a better way.

[Toga]

I want to make it clear to everyone else that I wasn't making any such comparison. I just didn't think that the fact that Jews have been persecuted for centuries excused Toga's attacks on me and europeans. It's irrelevant.


Fair enough. Sorry to have misunderstood you.

Well, how do you get a job? They look at your experience, your background, your record. You cannot move forward until you bring in your past. The European record is mired in hate toward the Jews. It has nothing to do with attacks but it has everything to do with reality and facts. The reality is brutal because it is based on the European evil and horrible maltreatment of Jews for centuries. Wherever you go in Europe you see the vestiges of the European cruelty and hatred memorialized in some buildings, Jewish cemeteries and writings.

What you fail to understand or perhaps you don't even know that one of the most significant pillars in Judaism is remembrance. We say Kadish many times a year. We analyze our past so that we don't repeat the mistake in the future. There is a fundamental difference in our belief system. When we face the future we bring in our history and record and unlike you we have nothing to be ashamed of.

[Annaliese]

Annaliese,
Could we just ignore Toga and carry on from where we were before he joined in?

um

no

You can ignore whomever you wish and I will do the same.

[Luke90]

Well, how do you get a job? They look at your experience, your background, your record.
True, but they don't look at my father's record or my cousin's record or the record of some other random people who happen to have been born on the same continent as me. I'm not asking you to forgive what Europeans have done to Jews nor do I think you should but I don't consider you to be responsible for the actions of all your ancestors or of all Jews. In the same way I don't consider myself or Ossian to be responsible for the holocaust or other persecution of Jews.

[Mediocrates]

I don't mean to be obtuse, I'm just short of time. Sorry about that.

[Annaliese]

You are in no way obtuse. You are in every way subtle and way cool and very funny ... even though you are a mod. :D :cool:

[Toga]

True, but they don't look at my father's record or my cousin's record or the record of some other random people who happen to have been born on the same continent as me. I'm not asking you to forgive what Europeans have done to Jews nor do I think you should but I don't consider you to be responsible for the actions of all your ancestors or of all Jews. In the same way I don't consider myself or Ossian to be responsible for the holocaust or other persecution of Jews.

Once again your belief system is different. You want to start this generation with a clean slate. You cannot. When I drew a parallel with your job you conveniently and wrongly deciphered it in your favor despite your bloody history, past, past experiences and records, etc. which do matter.

..and please don't compare the Euros to Jews. You will never reach the Jewish level of ethics, morality, tolerance, etc. Take a look at the Euro press within the last 5 years and see what they were saying about Israel.

....even the French understood that their recent attitute toward the Jews was based on anti-Semitism.

[mbczion]

Now, now, everyone, there are some nice, cultured Europeans out there....Oh wait, they're the Jews that are left there....:)

[Annaliese]

Now, now, everyone, there are some nice, cultured Europeans out there....Oh wait, they're the Jews that are left there....:)


:D :D

[Luke90]

..and please don't compare the Euros to Jews. You will never reach the Jewish level of ethics, morality, tolerance, etc. Take a look at the Euro press within the last 5 years and see what they were saying about Israel.
Does comparison have to imply equality? I see no reason why it should or why it has any bearing on the point I was making.
You made an analogy, I just pointed out that I don't think it really proves the point you were trying to make.

[MGB8]

Back to the article, I think one of the points is that the destruction of European Jewery led to an over-reaction of sorts, where anything was tolerated in order to avoid the label of racist.

That Europe, instead of valuing groups (and yes, this requires generalizations) for their contributions, and acting accordingly, went from one extreme - murdering some based on ethnic hatred and supremacism, to accepting everyone and fearing to impose European values and norms.

I do not read "the holocaust was okay but was done to the wrong people." And the sentiment, that Jews were positive for Europe, whereas the current Muslim population not so much... well.. isn't it very possible that this is an authentic sentiment that has a large degree of truth to it?

On the other hand, I can see how a European, who is reasonable afraid of racist impulses, given their history, might feel this is a start to a slippery slope.

Too bad Europeans can't do the same for the national Jew, Israel. It seems most Europeans have had no problem allowing the Arabs to committ genocide on Israel's Jews. Although maybe that's changing now... I won't hold my breath, though.

[Leon]

By Sebastian Villar Rodriguez - Spanish Writer, September 23, 2005.

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.

In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.

And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their na?ve hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.



http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Rodriguez-2005-09-23.asp
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............

A little rough on the generalizations but raises some interesting points.



this guy is spot on. And no one should make any apologies in saying that this guy is 110% right.

[Toga]

Back to the article, I think one of the points is that the destruction of European Jewery led to an over-reaction of sorts, where anything was tolerated in order to avoid the label of racist.

That Europe, instead of valuing groups (and yes, this requires generalizations) for their contributions, and acting accordingly, went from one extreme - murdering some based on ethnic hatred and supremacism, to accepting everyone and fearing to impose European values and norms.

I do not read "the holocaust was okay but was done to the wrong people." And the sentiment, that Jews were positive for Europe, whereas the current Muslim population not so much... well.. isn't it very possible that this is an authentic sentiment that has a large degree of truth to it?

On the other hand, I can see how a European, who is reasonable afraid of racist impulses, given their history, might feel this is a start to a slippery slope.

Too bad Europeans can't do the same for the national Jew, Israel. It seems most Europeans have had no problem allowing the Arabs to committ genocide on Israel's Jews. Although maybe that's changing now... I won't hold my breath, though.


Based on the record the Euros can never be trusted.

[Ossian]

True, the Empire have also sucessfuly engaged the Graf Spee, yet in at least two fronts (Norway and France) the Brits (and the French) had soldiers and were relactant to engage the Germans during that period, rightfuly called the "wired war" or "Phoney war". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phony_War)

BTW, Don't change the subject, German. The subject was the "we" mention at the article which opened this thread, and Ossian reaction, as if as a Brit he got no part in the holocaust.

Again, the holocaust happened because of anti semetic aspects of European culture. The eliminationry anti semetism, is a European cultural phenomena (which the Arabs now employ against all Westerners). Fighting it hadn't yet begun.

This is a vey sensitive issue Gilgamesh and one wev'e spoken before about. Its off topic too, but I would like to say: to be honest as 'Ossian' - i have no part in the holocaust. As a Brit in 2006 i have no part in the holocaust. As for 1939-1945 my immediate Brit ancestors (or as as Toga would say 'my kind' )were a little bit tied up fighting and getting killed by Ze Germans and getting bombed by them to have had too much role in it I daresay. Before that, they were coal miners. How far back do we need to go? Please don't paint everyone with the same broad brush stroke of evil. I and 'my kind' are not responsible nor for British imperialism nor the actions of British high command during the war.

[Ossian]

I would like to say this point that seems to have been missed:

British muslims are mostly descended from inhabitants of former British colonies. As subjects of 'her madge' they have as much right to live in Britain as an Anglican Vicar from Chipping-Sodbury-On-The-Marsh. It is'nt about 'political correctness.'

I am suprised a Spaniard came up with this trash, they are a people with a large injection of Arab Muslim blood in them. Maybe he's a "self hating Arab"???

[Luke90]

And the sentiment, that Jews were positive for Europe, whereas the current Muslim population not so much... well.. isn't it very possible that this is an authentic sentiment that has a large degree of truth to it?
I could possibly accept a statement like that if it was put in the more moderate form that you've used here. However, the article doesn't balance it's attacks on muslims with even the merest hint that they might not all be 100% evil.

I do not read "the holocaust was okay but was done to the wrong people."
I don't read it quite that way either. But it wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine the author of an article like this advocating some pretty drastic solutions to the problems he sees.

this guy is spot on. And no one should make any apologies in saying that this guy is 110% right.
Surely you have to accept that such unequivocal generalisations can never be 100% correct, let alone 110%.
Wouldn't a more balanced statement of a basically similar sentiment as MGB8 put it (quoted above) have been better and more accurate?

[Ossian]

That's not the way other people, including me, interpreted it.

So, you did enjoy July 7, 2005? Brace yourself ...

Britain's been dealing with terrorist atrocities for the past 30- 40 years. Same ___t, different colour.

[Gilgamesh]

This is a vey sensitive issue Gilgamesh and one weve' spoken with you before on. Its off topic too, but I would like to say: to be honest as Ossian - i have no part in the holocaust. as a Brit in 2005 i had no part in the holocaust. As for 1939-1945 my immediate Brit ancestors (or as as Toga would say 'my kind' )were a little bit tied up fighting and getting killed by Ze Germans and getting bombed by them to have had too much role in it I daresay. Before that, they were coal miners. How far back do we need to go? Please don't paint everyone with the same broad brush stroke of evil. I and 'my kind' are not responsible nor for British imperialism nor the actions of British high command during the war.

I do apreciate British and Allied great valor in fighting the Nazis, but don't even implay you were fighting for our sake, as the modern media and your politicians claim a planty today. I know it was false.

As for the amount of responsibility of an individual to the crimes of his group, crimes that happened even before one was born. It always comes up one way or the other...

There are degrees of responsibility, and there fields of responsibilites. I have no doubt some people are more guilty then others. There is no debate over the fact some people have direct responsibility and others indirecrt responsibilities.

I claim the principle I claimed for years in my posts in this forum. Actions, both the good and the evil, derive from a cultural, pschological and historical experiance. Every generation of any nation has the responsibility to curb down the motivation to commit more crimes. Or in Europe's case, the crimminal motivations is Antisemtism and ongoing refusal to recognize Jew's human rights, Jews right of self determination and self defense. Bottom line, I know Europe is Anti semtic to it's filthy rotten core, and we Israelis have to watch our backs from you lot.

Europe is still in league to the enemies of the Jewish people, and the European population do nothing to effect it's goverment policies, either out of carelessness or simply anti semetism. One cannot avoid thinking, that Europe hadn't really change a bit since its darkest era, it only became more sophisticated, useing Arabs and Iranians as their agenst and proxies to commit the next Holocaust.

Europe's people are anaglog to a convicted crimminal. He, like Europe, has the choise whether to repent or ready himself to commit more atrocities. Europe seed of violance is still there, and you people do too little to cleanse it. Either because you're apathic or you're approving of it.

So no, you're not off the hook, you just musn't confuse your responsibilites and my accusations of you, just to make me sound silly, cause it'd backfire on you.

[Ossian]

This argument is basically down to this:

Europe as an amorphous mass, held to account because of the crimes of the previous amorpous mass of Europeans.

Or me as an individual being found guilty of a crime i did not, and could not have (even simply by virtue of my age) have committed.

I am obviously going to to prefer the latter not least because thats what seems the most logical.

Is it simply that i hold a British passport that i am guilty of complicity in the holocaust? Would you say the same to a new British citizen who recently emigrated from the Congo?


N.B. I was not trying to make you look silly, i don't know what you mean by 'backfire' on me???

[Mediocrates]

No one should claim the Jews weren't abandoned to perish. Let's just get that out there. The Allied goals didn't intersect with saving any Jews.

[Annaliese]

I do apreciate British and Allied great valor in fighting the Nazis, but don't even implay you were fighting for our sake, as the modern media and your politicians claim a planty today. I know it was false.

That is correct. As I posted earlier, the USA would never have entered WWII w/o Pearl Harbor.


I claim the principle I claimed for years in my posts in this forum. Actions, both the good and the evil, derive from a cultural, pschological and historical experiance. Every generation of any nation has the responsibility to curb down the motivation to commit more crimes. Or in Europe's case, the crimminal motivations is Antisemtism and ongoing refusal to recognize Jew's human rights, Jews right of self determination and self defense. Bottom line, I know Europe is Anti semtic to it's filthy rotten core, and we Israelis have to watch our backs from you lot.

Europe is still in league to the enemies of the Jewish people, and the European population do nothing to effect it's goverment policies, either out of carelessness or simply anti semetism. One cannot avoid thinking, that Europe hadn't really change a bit since its darkest era, it only became more sophisticated, useing Arabs and Iranians as their agenst and proxies to commit the next Holocaust.

Europe's people are anaglog to a convicted crimminal. He, like Europe, has the choise whether to repent or ready himself to commit more atrocities. Europe seed of violance is still there, and you people do too little to cleanse it. Either because you're apathic or you're approving of it.

So no, you're not off the hook, you just musn't confuse your responsibilites and my accusations of you, just to make me sound silly, cause it'd backfire on you.

How can any logical human being argue with that?

[Annaliese]

No one should claim the Jews weren't abandoned to perish. Let's just get that out there. The Allied goals didn't intersect with saving any Jews.

Precisely!

[Gilgamesh]

This argument is basically down to this:

Europe as an amorphous mass, held to account because of the crimes of the previous amorpous mass of Europeans.

Or me as an individual being found guilty of a crime i did not, and could not have (even simply by virtue of my age) have committed.

I am obviously going to to prefer the latter not least because thats what seems the most logical.

Is it simply that i hold a British passport that i am guilty of complicity in the holocaust? Would you say the same to a new British citizen who recently emigrated from the Congo?


N.B. I was not trying to make you look silly, i don't know what you mean by 'backfire' on me???

I'll put it in plain english so you can understand:
You sods are anti semites. Your parents are anti semites and good chances your children will be antisemites as well. Your nation ties with Arab and Islamists proove this. Dare to cross us again and we'll make you sorry you've born.

We hold Europe as a whole, and Germany in particular responsible for the holocaust. There is justice in the world and the day of reckoning will sure as hell to come for you all

The Spaniard who wrote the article that opened this thread, figured it out. High time Ossian you get this streight too.

[Toga]

This is a vey sensitive issue Gilgamesh and one wev'e spoken before about. Its off topic too, but I would like to say: to be honest as 'Ossian' - i have no part in the holocaust. As a Brit in 2006 i have no part in the holocaust. As for 1939-1945 my immediate Brit ancestors (or as as Toga would say 'my kind' )were a little bit tied up fighting and getting killed by Ze Germans and getting bombed by them to have had too much role in it I daresay. Before that, they were coal miners. How far back do we need to go? Please don't paint everyone with the same broad brush stroke of evil. I and 'my kind' are not responsible nor for British imperialism nor the actions of British high command during the war.


It is probably very hard for your kind to understand that Holocaust was not committed in a vaccuum. The European culture of hatred toward the Jews culminated in Holocaust. It is the culture with deep roots in mob violence in York and London. It is the culture of confiscation of Jewish property in England. In your very culture, in 1218, the Jews were required to wear the identification badges and that smart English method was copied by the German nazis 730 years later. Let us not forget how the English gentlemen, Her Majesty's subjects, tried to prevent the remnants of the devastated European Jewry join its Jewish brethren in the British protectorate. It is the culture that produces the BBC documentaries where the Hamas serial murderers (terrorists) are identified as "militants" etc.

It has nothing to do with you personally but the European record of hatred toward the Jews speaks for itself. It has not gone away. It is alive and well today as it was 1000 years ago except these days it is packaged and presented as anti-Zionism, anti-Sharon, anti-Israeli regime.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/HistoryJewishPersecution.htm

[Toga]

Ask yourself a question Ossian, why Israel is being singled out? The same Israel that supplies water, pre-natal care, electricity and phone service to the Gaza residents when the Gazan missiles are being fired at the Israeli towns on a daily basis?

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-02-17T010827Z_01_L17378104_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-BRITAIN-ISRAEL.xml

or take a look at this:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,1468513,00.html

That is your culture, Ossian.

[Luke90]

It's ridiculous to treat 800 million individuals as a single person with a single worldview and opinion. As I've said already, generalisations have their place, and of course it is logical to say that Europe has a particular culture and history some of which is ugly. However, when it becomes ridiculous is when you tell me or Ossian that we as individuals MUST be anti-semitic and are personally responsible for all the crimes of a continent simply because of where we were born. That's just ludicrous. I don't even know why I'm bothering to post this because clearly you can't understand it.

[Mediocrates]

No need to pick on one or two people as a generalization for everything, is there? Look here's the way I look at it. The people who are alive today can't apologize to the only people who can absolve them since they're dead. It will just be an open switch forever. I accept that relations between the Jews of Europe and the goyim of Europe will always be problematic. There's really no need to look any deeper or for closure because we'll never get it. As long as Jews are a minority in Europe they will always be in a precarious position, in other words they will never be entirely welcomed or entirely secure and screaming at people who's grandparents murdered your grandparents isn't going to change that.

[Toga]

It's ridiculous to treat 800 million individuals as a single person with a single worldview and opinion. As I've said already, generalisations have their place, and of course it is logical to say that Europe has a particular culture and history some of which is ugly. However, when it becomes ridiculous is when you tell me or Ossian that we as individuals MUST be anti-semitic and are personally responsible for all the crimes of a continent simply because of where we were born. That's just ludicrous. I don't even know why I'm bothering to post this because clearly you can't understand it.


You obviously did not read what I wrote. It is ridiculous to measure everybody by the same yardstick. There are many good people in Europe. There are also many faces to Europe and some of them are beautiful and yet, the European culture is intertwined with hatred toward the Jews which these days is manifested in political/documentary press, TV programs, boycotts, threats, etc. It is comical that these days some Europeans attribute it to the Muslim influences in Europe rather than looking at themselves.

There is a good reason why the French envoy to the UK defined Israel as "that $hitty little country Israel". There is a reason for Livingstone's anti-Israeli outbursts and for Solana to state: "the EU would be involved with the peace process, whether Israel liked it or not".

No wonder Hamas came to power! That is Europe for you.

[Gilgamesh]

It's ridiculous to treat 800 million individuals as a single person with a single worldview and opinion. As I've said already, generalisations have their place, and of course it is logical to say that Europe has a particular culture and history some of which is ugly. However, when it becomes ridiculous is when you tell me or Ossian that we as individuals MUST be anti-semitic and are personally responsible for all the crimes of a continent simply because of where we were born. That's just ludicrous. I don't even know why I'm bothering to post this because clearly you can't understand it.
Do you bother yourself to read any of my post on this subject? Cause it looks to me you argue with some phantom poster only you can read. Never have i said you personaly have direct responsibility for the holocaust or your country former Imperialism.

I've focused my accusation at you into a single word: Antisemetism.
Denial of Israel right to exist and denial of Israel right of self defense. Even if you personaly are one of the hadnful few who are not wholey anti semetic, it is still up to you, to effect your goverment policies.

Unless you Europeans do so, Europe can't rightfuly claim that another holocaust won't happen, Europe can't claim they are changed people and most of all, they can't deny any responsibility for past and future events.

The cultural phenomena called anti semetism, is the reason for past and future holocaust, and is under your direct responsibility and you're held accountable for it. If you can't or unwilling to do so, you can't hold yourself above and beyoned my critisizm.

[Luke90]

I don't hold myself above anyone's criticism as long as they're criticising me for something they know about me. I do object to being criticised for anti-semitism (not just by you) when you have no evidence that I'm anti-semitic. There's plenty of things that my government does that I'm not entirely happy with. It's attitude towards Israel or Jews isn't something I spend much time worrying about. Not because I hate Israel or Jews but simply because from my point of view there are more important things that directly affect me. Slightly selfish I know but I guess that's just human nature. There are many issues I could campaign about but don't, Israel being one of them I suppose.

[Roland]

Cause it looks to me you argue with some phantom poster only you can read. I read "Toga" and "Gilgamesh" perfectly clear.
Never have i said you personaly have direct responsibility for the holocaust or your country former Imperialism.
I've focused my accusation at you into a single word: Antisemetism.
Denial of Israel right to exist and denial of Israel right of self defense. Even if you personaly are one of the hadnful few who are not wholey anti semetic, it is still up to you, to effect your goverment policies.This is what I call a generalizing and insulting ethnic slur.
You sods are anti semites. Your parents are anti semites and good chances your children will be antisemites as well.This is what I call an intolerable insulting personal attack. It makes you look stupid in my eyes, because you don't know Ossian's family personally.
However, common courtesy is required.
Personal attacks are not allowed.
Ethnic slurs and insults are not allowed.
I must say, I find some of yours and Toga's posts extremely rude.
I have seen you both doing much better.

[Toga]

I must say, I find some of yours and Toga's posts extremely rude. I have seen you both doing much better.

Put the guilt trip on your kids, sister, friends, whoever but not me.

[Ossian]

I'll put it in plain english so you can understand:
You sods are anti semites. Your parents are anti semites and good chances your children will be antisemites as well. Your nation ties with Arab and Islamists proove this. Dare to cross us again and we'll make you sorry you've born.

We hold Europe as a whole, and Germany in particular responsible for the holocaust. There is justice in the world and the day of reckoning will sure as hell to come for you all

The Spaniard who wrote the article that opened this thread, figured it out. High time Ossian you get this streight too.

your s*** tin me, right?

[Ossian]

Ask yourself a question Ossian, why Israel is being singled out? The same Israel that supplies water, pre-natal care, electricity and phone service to the Gaza residents when the Gazan missiles are being fired at the Israeli towns on a daily basis?

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-02-17T010827Z_01_L17378104_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-BRITAIN-ISRAEL.xml

or take a look at this:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,1468513,00.html

That is your culture, Ossian.

My Culture? You don't know jack Toga.

Over and Out.

[Gilgamesh]

I must say, I find some of yours and Toga's posts extremely rude.
I have seen you both doing much better.
Any case, I find it hard to care any less about your opinion. I can't recall asking you for any grading of my posts. Let alone when you failed to read those properly.

[varian]

By Sebastian Villar Rodriguez - Spanish Writer, September 23, 2005.

And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Rodriguez-2005-09-23.asp

Europe is not the only place that has made that mistake. The US has likewise opened its gates to those who were determine to copy an Auschwitz II et al in the desert regions of the ME. Thanks to the present ineptitude of our government, the next battle of jihad will take place within the borders of the US. Karma, kismet, or just plain stupidity; the US suffers from a similar lapse of good judgement. The wolves are in the house. Et tu America!!!

[Toga]

My Culture? You don't know jack Toga. Over and Out

Perhaps you can enlighten me with your culture. Also, please tell the Australian aborigines that Her Majesty's subjects had nothing to do with wiping them out. The list of the British crimes is too long to enumerate everything. What sickening about it that these days the Brtis and the rest of the Euros think that they made a great discovery. They found morality. That is why they can cast a judgment on 5M Jews who try to survive in the hostile Middle East while totally ignoring the 21 tyrannical Arab regimes.

[KettleWhistle]

i think this guy is real, a spanish journalist, probably using an alias after what happened to theo van gogh.

It really doesn't matter who this person is. Either way, he is wrong on all accounts. All life didn't die in Europe. It went on to be just what it was before. And although his comparisons are for the most part correct, they are off. Holocaust and the immigration of radical Muslims are two separate and unrelated events.

[Luke90]

Holocaust and the immigration of radical Muslims are two separate and unrelated events.
And hopefully will remain so.

[Ossian]

Perhaps you can enlighten me with your culture. Also, please tell the Australian aborigines that Her Majesty's subjects had nothing to do with wiping them out. The list of the British crimes is too long to enumerate everything. What sickening about it that these days the Brtis and the rest of the Euros think that they made a great discovery. They found morality. That is why they can cast a judgment on 5M Jews who try to survive in the hostile Middle East while totally ignoring the 21 tyrannical Arab regimes.


LOL!! Yes i agree with you Toga! The list of crimes of the British goverment is long, wrong and terrible. What the British Goverment did to MY forebears was wrong and terrible. 'My kind' did'nt 'find morality' they were too busy getting it stuck to them hard and brutually up the A by successive British goverments just as other people's forebears were. The Queen sux balls as far as i care. All those lords and ladies can kiss my rosy red Irish working class backside. Its people i care about and British people are mostly good folks who just like most people, Israeli, Americans, Frenchies, Malaysians etc want to live a good life, look after their kids etc: live and let live. All this them and us attitude is for children and patriotic morons.

There is a belief amongst a minority of people in Britain in the ''chattering classes'' that 'the Palestinians' are getting a raw deal. You say every Israeli action is completely justified and ok and moral. They perhaps think things could be done differently. So what? They may be misguided but their worry derives from caring about people, Toga. Why not try to educate and spread the good word as you see it Toga rather than simply hurling unwarranted abuse at people, if you care so much about what some middle class trendy lefties say in The Guardian.

(N.B condemning an entire countries citizenry for what is printed in a newspaper...now where have i heard that before????)

British people are'nt anti israel. I bet a lot of them couldnt find it on a map.

[Toga]

There is a belief amongst a minority of people in Britain in the ''chattering classes'' that 'the Palestinians' are getting a raw deal. You say every Israeli action is completely justified and ok and moral. They perhaps think things could be done differently. So what? They may be misguided but their worry derives from caring about people, Toga. Why not try to educate and spread the good word as you see it Toga rather than simply hurling unwarranted abuse at people, if you care so much about what some middle class trendy lefties say in The Guardian.

(N.B condemning an entire countries citizenry for what is printed in a newspaper...now where have i heard that before????)

British people are'nt anti israel. I bet a lot of them couldnt find it on a map.

Some raw deal they have: 70 Arabs per 1 Jew. They occupy 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass, a good portion of which is floating on oil. All 22 tyrannical Arab states are practically Jew free. They kicked the Jews out. Some were murdered. 20% of tiny Israel is Arab. 10 Arabs serve in the Israeli parliament. Some of them meet the terrorists in Lebanon or visit Syria and their trips are financed by the Israeli taxpayer. Moreover, they advocate the destruction of Israel from the podium of the Israeli knesset while they are treated by the Jews in the first class Israeli medical centers and their kids attend the world-class Israeli universities. Israel is a magnet for the Palestinian Arab gays who flee to the Jewish state for safety avoiding their Arab brothers. 70%-75% of the Hashemite Kingdom is claiming Palestinian Arab origin and it is a de-facto Palestinian Arab state and yet they want a second Palestinian Arab state carved out on the Jewish land. It is not a conflict about the land but about the Arab honor and pride. The Arabs claming the Palestinian identity, which by the way, they acquired from the Jews have been assigned by the Greater Arab world to dislodge Israel and confiscate the Jewish property. Actually, they are not much different from the Euros in that regard. The Euros chased the Jews from country to country while acquiring their assets. The fact, the the common Brits side with Arabs againsit the Jews is not surprising. Jews were emancipated in the UK less than 150 years ago. The European soil is drenched with Jewish blood. The BBC, the Guardian, etc. know the facts but it is not the facts and truth they are interested in. They understand the feelings and emotions of their readership and viewership and they are bringing to them what they want to hear and read about the Jews. Hatred of Jews runs deep in the veins of the British populace. It is not a curable condition.

So, if the majority of Brits cannot find Israel on a map what brings you to Israel/Jews?

[Luke90]

So, if the majority of Brits cannot find Israel on a map what brings you to Israel/Jews?
Good Lord, it's almost as if people can be individuals rather than a single hive mind.

[Toga]

Good Lord, it's almost as if people can be individuals rather than a single hive mind.

So, Luke, what brings you here?

[Ossian]

1.Some raw deal they have: 70 Arabs per 1 Jew. They occupy 99.9% of the Middle Eastern landmass, a good portion of which is floating on oil. All 22 tyrannical Arab states are practically Jew free. They kicked the Jews out. Some were murdered. 20% of tiny Israel is Arab. 10 Arabs serve in the Israeli parliament. Some of them meet the terrorists in Lebanon or visit Syria and their trips are financed by the Israeli taxpayer. Moreover, they advocate the destruction of Israel from the podium of the Israeli knesset while they are treated by the Jews in the first class Israeli medical centers and their kids attend the world-class Israeli universities. Israel is a magnet for the Palestinian Arab gays who flee to the Jewish state for safety avoiding their Arab brothers. 70%-75% of the Hashemite Kingdom is claiming Palestinian Arab origin and it is a de-facto Palestinian Arab state and yet they want a second Palestinian Arab state carved out on the Jewish land. It is not a conflict about the land but about the Arab honor and pride. The Arabs claming the Palestinian identity, which by the way, they acquired from the Jews have been assigned by the Greater Arab world to dislodge Israel and confiscate the Jewish property.


2. Actually, they are not much different from the Euros in that regard. The Euros chased the Jews from country to country while acquiring their assets. The fact, the the common Brits side with Arabs againsit the Jews is not surprising. Jews were emancipated in the UK less than 150 years ago. The European soil is drenched with Jewish blood. The BBC, the Guardian, etc. know the facts but it is not the facts and truth they are interested in. They understand the feelings and emotions of their readership and viewership and they are bringing to them what they want to hear and read about the Jews. Hatred of Jews runs deep in the veins of the British populace. It is not a curable condition.

3. So, if the majority of Brits cannot find Israel on a map what brings you to Israel/Jews?

See there you go again Toga, you started off with facts. Putting common sense into the Pa/Israeli issue. It was interesting, in fact, i agree with you. I am able to use those points you've raised in arguments/disucssions with other people, my Muslims friends, trendy lefty Guardian reading friends etc. Thanx. But why oh why do you have to then ruin it by going on an on about Brits the way you do? Are you racist? Your hatred for millions of people you've never met (and obviously don't understand by the way you completely ignored the beginning of my earlier post) is worrying to me. Do you define yourself by your hatred of the 'other'?

3. I originally came here by accident. I googled some stuff about the Paris riots and came up with this. I was suprised to see the stultifying and bigoted anti European posts. I never knew that i personally would be so hated by other people because of where i was born, my ethnic origin or my religion. I was always brought up to think that that kind of thing was completely wrong. However, it pleases me to remain here, engage in discussions and try to put another side to arguments. If that is, its ok with you.

[Ossian]

Good Lord, it's almost as if people can be individuals rather than a single hive mind.


Dude thats called racism and bigotry. Nice to know we evil Brits don't have a monopoly on them.

[Luke90]

So, Luke, what brings you here?
I've answered this question before. In fact I think it might even have been you that asked it.
I was searching through forums on the internet and came across this one. Some of the threads interested me so I made an account and stuck around.

[Mil]

Posted by Ossian:

I originally came here by accident. I googled some stuff about the Paris riots and came up with this. I was suprised to see the stultifying and bigoted anti European posts. I never knew that i personally would be so hated by other people because of where i was born, my ethnic origin or my religion. I was always brought up to think that that kind of thing was completely wrong. However, it pleases me to remain here, engage in discussions and try to put another side to arguments. If that is, its ok with you.

There are quite a few people on this forum who were actually born in Europe but of a Jewish descent. Lets put it this way if you were a Jew of a European descent you would not have much of an opinion about Europe and its people either.

[Ossian]

Posted by Ossian:

I originally came here by accident. I googled some stuff about the Paris riots and came up with this. I was suprised to see the stultifying and bigoted anti European posts. I never knew that i personally would be so hated by other people because of where i was born, my ethnic origin or my religion. I was always brought up to think that that kind of thing was completely wrong. However, it pleases me to remain here, engage in discussions and try to put another side to arguments. If that is, its ok with you.

There are quite a few people on this forum who were actually born in Europe but of a Jewish descent. Lets put it this way if you were a Jew of a European descent you would not have much of an opinion about Europe and its people either.

I can understand that Mil, at least i can try to empathizewith it; me not being Jewish at all. But i know some Jews of European descent. There's a couple of lecturers who teach me at Uni, there's a young bloke who plays football with my boyfriend every Saturday and the jewish guy who dated my cousin for two years. They are obviously able to see me as a human being, as an individual in my own right. Their like or dislike of me will be based on my own individual actions and beliefs, not by what passport i hold or the religion my grandparents belonged to. I just want Toga to do the same.

[Mil]

Posted by Ossian:


I can understand that Mil, at least i can try to empathizewith it; me not being Jewish at all. They are obviously able to see me as a human being, as an individual in my own right. Their like or dislike of me will be based on my own individual actions and beliefs, not by what passport i hold or the religion my grandparents belonged to. I just want Toga to do the same.

As I said before if you were of a Jewish descent your opinion of Europe would be a bit different then what it is right now. It has nothing to do with your passport or religion but with the history of Jewish people on the continent of Europe.

In Europe everyone has a historical grievance against one people or the other. Ukranians and Poles, Russians and Finns, Irish and Britts, French and Germans, Germans and Poles, Italians and Greeks, Turks and Greeks, Serbs and Albanians.... the list is fairly long. The Jews have historical grievances against EVERYONE in Europe. Should we be apprehensive of all that comes out of your continent? Hell yeah!!!!!

[Toga]

See there you go again Toga, you started off with facts. Putting common sense into the Pa/Israeli issue. It was interesting, in fact, i agree with you. I am able to use those points you've raised in arguments/disucssions with other people, my Muslims friends, trendy lefty Guardian reading friends etc. Thanx. But why oh why do you have to then ruin it by going on an on about Brits the way you do? Are you racist? Your hatred for millions of people you've never met (and obviously don't understand by the way you completely ignored the beginning of my earlier post) is worrying to me. Do you define yourself by your hatred of the 'other'?

3. I originally came here by accident. I googled some stuff about the Paris riots and came up with this. I was suprised to see the stultifying and bigoted anti European posts. I never knew that i personally would be so hated by other people because of where i was born, my ethnic origin or my religion. I was always brought up to think that that kind of thing was completely wrong. However, it pleases me to remain here, engage in discussions and try to put another side to arguments. If that is, its ok with you.

If you derive your knowledge from the forums rather than the books, documents, etc. then I feel sorry for you. 1M Jews were kicked out from the Arab world. Some were slaughtered. Both the European Jews and Jews from the Arab states had nowhere to go but the land of their forefathers. The Brits tried to prevent the Jewish refugees from Europe from coming to the area but the Jews forced their way in and joined the Jewish brethren in the land of Israel.

As for the Arab regimes, it was not enough for them to kill/kick out the Jews. They started military campaigns and terrorism to murder the very Jews who lived among them for 1000s of years and who they kicked out. A day did not go by when the Syrian Arabs did not fire from the Golan Heights at the Jewish villages down below. There were no Jews in the Golans at the time. These days the Arabs claiming the Palestinian indentity are firing the missiles on the Jewish towns while Israel is supplying them with water, electricity, phone service and in individual cases medical care. Nothing much has changed. The democratic Israel is still struggling to survive in a very brutal and hostile neighborhood surrounded by the 22 tyrannical Arab regimes. There is a reason the Arab regimes have never absorbed the Arab claiming the Palestinian identity. Despite all kinds of warfares the Arab states failed to wipe Israel out. So, the Arab world views the Arabs from Ramallah, Gaza, Nablus. etc as its last resort to dislodge Israel either via terrorism or demographically.

There is no country in the world that has more challenges than Israel and yet she counducts herself with the level of grace, humanity, ethics and morality nobody in this world can even come close to.

One does not have to be brilliant or smart to understand the Middle Eastern situation. You only have to look at the map of the Arab world, its resources, its corruption, persecution of minorities and how they treat each other. Iraq is very good example how the Arabs treat their own.

The European leaders know the truth. They know the facts. They know what is going on but since many of them are afflicted with the anti-Semitic virus they cannot act any other way but against Israel. That is their nature.

As for your experiences with some Jews, do you think they represent us or they have any identifiable Jewish characteristics. They don't represent me and I don't represent them.

[Toga]

Dude thats called racism and bigotry. Nice to know we evil Brits don't have a monopoly on them.

We could only dream that your people treated my kind just as bad as my kind treated your people. Had it been the case most Jews in Europe would not have ended up in the ovens.

[Ossian]

1.If you derive your knowledge from the forums rather than the books, documents, etc. then I feel sorry for you. .

2.The European leaders know the truth. They know the facts. They know what is going on but since many of them are afflicted with the anti-Semitic virus they cannot act any other way but against Israel. That is their nature.

As for your experiences with some Jews, do you think they represent us or they have any identifiable Jewish characteristics. They don't represent me and I don't represent them.

Toga i was being slightly facetious. I thought it possible that if you were going to take up issues with some of my posts you would rely on facts, real points, not just the same old same old.

2. European leaders, im my opinion, want to keep the Arab world on site because of oil & green. This virus you talk of, in my opinion, does not exist.They are possibly indifferent in the face of arab hostility to Israel, being versed in realpolitik as they are. For that you may condemn them but i disagree that they are virulently anti semitic.

3. No, as you well know, i used them as an example of how I may, as a non Jew interact with someone who is a Jew as human beings. I never said they represented anyone but themselves, just as I don't represent anyone but myself. Unnerstand?

[Ossian]

We could only dream that your people treated my kind just as bad as my kind treated your people. Had it been the case most Jews in Europe would not have ended up in the ovens.


Please tell me exactly what 'my kind' is.

[Gilgamesh]

Toga i was being slightly facetious. I thought it possible that if you were going to take up issues with some of my posts you would rely on facts, real points, not just the same old same old. The same old is what we have and you can't deal with.

2. European leaders, im my opinion, want to keep the Arab world on site because of oil & green. This virus you talk of, in my opinion, does not exist.They are possibly indifferent in the face of arab hostility to Israel, being versed in realpolitik as they are. For that you may condemn them but i disagree that they are virulently anti semitic. This is the difference between my kind, and you kind. We don't stay complacent or indifferent infront of evil, when we have actual ability to prevent or reduce it.
Being immoral person has no excuse. Not energy, not money not nothing. Human life take priority above every other consideration. Since you can't live up to it, makes YOUR kind less civilized and more anti semetic.

You just can't claim to be clean and normal and sleep in the same bad with the terrorist Arab goats, and siclance or ignor any good Arab willing to do reform his society.

[Gilgamesh]

Please tell me exactly what 'my kind' is.
Jews are one kind, Hindu another, Chinese a thierd, Americans a fourth. Since you are none of the above, you must be a fifth kind, the one that gave pains & sufferings for all the rest, and now feel prefectly all right about it. That is your kind.

[Gilgamesh]

I never knew that i personally would be so hated by other people because of where i was born, my ethnic origin or my religion. I was always brought up to think that that kind of thing was completely wrong.

A) No individual Jew was ignored of his religion or enthic origion over the countless persectuions in Europe.

B) Had we known you have the capacity to full (100%) disassociation from your parents, homeland, culture ect... we would not bug you one little bit. However we already know such person can't exist. Nobody is capable to act against his nature: renounce any relation to some group of some people, some culture some prejudices. European prejudices involve great deal of antisemetism. We can't ignore that.

C) The "attacks" against you are for your staunch automatic support of the ill policies of your goverment concerning the Jewish people. While your loyalty to the throne is remarkable, it remains callus and immoral on certain issues, such as ours.

D) The hate and idifference of the general European population toward us Jews, was demonstrated along past and recent history, including many European posters who were more candid and less diplomatic then you are.
The hate us for being born, for being able to defend ourselves and for hunting down terrorist murderers. They sympethies with our killers. They gained our hate and their bannishment.

E) The reactions I find rare among European posters , is unhesitated unconditional support of us Jews right of self defense and right of self determination. Such things cause me feel hesitations about Europe right to exist and European right of self defense.

F) I write these posts to get the practice, to make my position clear, and maybe to exort some positive influance upon some other posters, give each other strength, encouragement, talking points ect... you are clearly outside of our circle. Stay if you wish, or leave - you won't be missed.

In a nutshell: Pox up on you lot, and may the Arab hords consume you, hide and bones too. So truly my dear, I don't give a damn. (and no, it doesn't rhyme).

[Luke90]

I've given up on this argument but please don't take my silence as acceptance of the racist and bigoted stereotyping you're supporting and using. You can keep claiming that you're using reasonable generalisations and not judging myself and Ossian as individuals but the rest of your posts in this thread give the lie to that claim.

[Toga]

2. European leaders, im my opinion, want to keep the Arab world on site because of oil & green. This virus you talk of, in my opinion, does not exist.They are possibly indifferent in the face of arab hostility to Israel, being versed in realpolitik as they are. For that you may condemn them but i disagree that they are virulently anti semitic.

Please...they are who they are. Hitler knew he could wipe out the Jews of Europe because he had supporters in France, Romania, Greece, Poland, Holland and the rest of Europe. He was right. There were only 2 European countries that went against the grain: Bulgaria and Denmark. You can say that these days Europe is motivated by its fiancial interests. Hence, its position on the Middle East is lopsided in favor to the Arabs. However, when the BBC , a very prestigious organization, sends a reporter to Ramallah who wheeps during the departure or demise of a terrorist like Yasser Arafat, it speaks volumes of the nature of the European reporting. There is definitely an emotional anti-Semitic dimension.

Let us be fair about it. When the Euros chased the Jews out they thought that the Jews will drown by the Middle Eastern hostility and disappear forever. However, the Jews not only survived but also created a fisrt-rate country, a third economy in the Mediterranean and a standard of living that exceeds all its immediate neighbors combined.

How frustrating it must be!

[Annaliese]

Let us be fair about it. When the Euros chased the Jews out they thought that the Jews will drown by the Middle Eastern hostility and disappear forever. However, the Jews not only survived but also created a first-rate country, a third economy in the Mediterranean and a standard of living that exceeds all its immediate neighbors combined.

Never Again!


How frustrating it must be!

Too true. :) :cool:

[Ossian]

Gilgamesh and Toga:

Firstly and most importantly: leave my mum out of this wontcha?

A) No individual Jew was ignored of his religion or enthic origion over the countless persectuions in Europe.

I agree with you

B) Had we known you have the capacity to full (100%) disassociation from your parents, homeland, culture ect... we would not bug you one little bit. However we already know such person can't exist.

I never said i had the capacity for 100% percent disassociation. But i am surely able to discriminate. There are many wonderful beautiful personages, traits and cultures of these Islands. I admire and embrace them. There are many terrible injustices that have occured, one being actions taken motivated by anti semitism. I condemn and renounce them.. Simple As.

"Nobody is capable to act against his nature: renounce any relation to some group of some people, some culture some prejudices. "

I already said that i can.

European prejudices involve great deal of antisemetism. We can't ignore that.

I'm not asking you too.

C) The "attacks" against you are for your staunch automatic support of the ill policies of your goverment concerning the Jewish people. While your loyalty to the throne is remarkable, it remains callus and immoral on certain issues, such as ours.

My responses to some issues were not supportive and certainly not automatic. I said that they were cruel, ruthless and money, not principle driven. I don't think you are reading what i am saying before you make up your mind about me, oh of course your not.

D) The hate and idifference of the general European population toward us Jews, was demonstrated along past and recent history, including many European posters who were more candid and less diplomatic then you are.

I speak as i find, nothing more nothing less. Perhaps you are confusing good manners with diplomacy. That is a distinction that some people who are'nt British find difficult to make.

[Ossian]

E) "The reactions I find rare among European posters , is unhesitated unconditional support of us Jews right of self defense and right of self determination. "


I do support and agree with Israeli and Jewish right to self defense and right of self determination. Not only because of their terrible history but its a basic right that everyone should share. What makes you think i believe otherwise? Are you referring to some of my previous comments relating to my dislike of some of the actions taken by Jewish militants pre the birth of Israel against British solidiers? These feelings are motivated by a over fond, sentimental i daresay, attachment to British Cannon-Fodder. Nothing more.


F)" I write these posts to get the practice, to make my position clear, and maybe to exort some positive influance upon some other posters, give each other strength, encouragement, talking points ect... you are clearly outside of our circle. Stay if you wish, or leave - you won't be missed. "

I never made an enquiry into your reasons for being here. But Thanx. The thought that i am outside of a circle that hates people for where they are born is of some comfort to me.

[Ossian]

Jews are one kind, Hindu another, Chinese a thierd, Americans a fourth. Since you are none of the above, you must be a fifth kind, the one that gave pains & sufferings for all the rest, and now feel prefectly all right about it. That is your kind.

What if i moved to America? What if i married a Chinese man? Would my kids be half evil kind and half good kind? If so, which half?

[Toga]

What if i moved to America? What if i married a Chinese man? Would my kids be half evil kind and half good kind? If so, which half?

Had you lived in America you would have known the difference between Europe and your continent. America is not perfect but comparing to Europe it is the epitome of perfection.

[Ossian]

Had you lived in America you would have known the difference between Europe and your continent. America is not perfect but comparing to Europe it is the epitome of perfection.


LOL! Thats really amusing. Compared to Europe? Europe 'aint a country. America is. Or did you mean the American continent? I live in Britain. Ok lets compare America to Britain in terms of human bloodshed.You believe Britain is vile because of a terrible massacre in the 12th century. How can you say that and then compare it to America? Compared to the rape butchery and torture of millions of African Americans and Native Indians? Maybe you don't care though, maybe 'your kind' (American before you start foaming at the mouth), has hatred to blacks and other non whites written into your D.N.A. Its your culture. You can't dissasociate yourself in any way from those evil crimes. You in fact are personally responsible for them. And any crimes committed against black and Amerindian in South America as its part of the same continent.

Ridiculous? Thats how your rants sound to me.

For the last time, Britain is a nice country. Its people are not your enemy.

Goodbye and Good luck.

[Gilgamesh]

What if i moved to America? What if i married a Chinese man? Would my kids be half evil kind and half good kind? If so, which half?
Blood is not everything. My focus, here and troughout, is culture. Should your hypotetical children would brought up as British, they must have be absorbing some degree of superiorism and anti semetism. People, your children included will have some time to choose their identity.

I'll give you bigger complex. What about half Jews, half Europeans... they are having an increasing complex identity problems. To which they tend to respond in extrems. Choosing one side and attacking the other.

[Gilgamesh]

You believe Britain is vile because of a terrible massacre in the 12th century. Not exactly. Since actions are always the net result of thoughts, mentality, culture, prejedices ect... actions are also evident of the corasponding culture. Violent people must have violent thoughts and urges. Therefor, our problem is with cultural aspects, chiefly anti semetism.

While atrocities happen on a limited and defined period of time, the cultural background which allow these things to happen change little over the centuries, everpresent. In other words, you are much more related to your 12th century ancestors then what you dare to admit. Even if they had been speeking French at the time. Let alone much nearer crimes and atorcities.

How can you say that and then compare it to America? Compared to the rape butchery and torture of millions of African Americans and Native Indians? Toga here is Jew, who happened to live in America. I don't suppose he'd dare or care to defend America in any way.

The greatness about America is that they don't fear of admiting mistake and do repent. The American civil war is the clearest and most obvious demonstration of what I mean. No other nation secrified so much upon enforcing a moral idea. America still has a long way to go, but it constantly shifting cultural trends as well as America willingness to absorb religious ideas and concepts such as absolute justice, absolute equality before the law, personal responsibility, and so on... allows america to have a great future ahead. Europe on the other pole, is stagnant, arrogant, frozen solid and quite decadent. Europeans are too full of themselves to admit thier faults and their responsibilities.

For the last time, Britain is a nice country. Its people are not your enemy. Britian is maybe the best pick the in European basket, but I think the whole parcel is rotten to its core.

The nice coutnry thing, maybe you patriotic impression of your homeland, but we have doubts regarding the truth in your impression, aspecialy in the light of your goverment ties and tolerance toward Islamist elements, who are the mortal enemies of Israel, America and even Britain itself.

[arikb]

blog.tapuz.co.il/germaniacapta

[ssrt]

To the Jews attacking the Europeans:

I agree that this problem was (and possibly still is) rooted in European culture. I do NOT, however, believe it is fair to discriminate against a European simply because of where he was born.

Let me remind you all, us Jews have our hands stained with blood too, does that mean we should all be considered murderers?

[Gilgamesh]

To the Jews attacking the Europeans:

I agree that this problem was (and possibly still is) rooted in European culture. I do NOT, however, believe it is fair to discriminate against a European simply because of where he was born. Can a European be born outside the European culture? (Mind you, for the sake of our debate, I don't consider Arabs, Africans, Indians or Turks as Europeans, even if geographicly they happened to be born there.)

Let me remind you all, us Jews have our hands stained with blood too, does that mean we should all be considered murderers?
I don't think you are Jewish, or you can proove it. (Can you tell us what Jewish holiday is the nearest, what'll be its date and what's its significance? )
Say you, who is about to get banned, what "blood" our hands as Jews are stained with?

[ssrt]

Can a European be be born outside European culture? (Mind you, for the sake of our debate, I don't consider Arabs, Africans, Indians or Turks as Europeans, even if geographicly they happened to be born there.)

Well... Yes and no.

Israeli born Ashkenazi Jews are an example of a European born outside of the direct influence of European culture.



I don't think you are Jewish, or you can proove it. (Can you tell us what Jewish holiday is the nearest, what'll be it date and what's its significance? )
Say you, who is about to get banned, what "blood" our hands as Jews are stained with?

Well, one thing you've said is true: I can't prove that I'm Jewish on an online forum.

The holiday closest to us is Pesach, commemorating our ancestors exodus from Egypt.

I need not give a specific example of Jews as a people carrying out slaughters. All you need to do is open your Tanach to see some examples.

Now let me ask you a question:

Why is it that as soon as I disagree with you, and say that your stereotyping is wrong, I am not a Jew?

All I meant to say was that the Europeans as a group have done terrible things, but we (as a group) are not so innocent ourselves. If the Europeans are to be blamed for their ancestors salughters, should we not be blamed for ours?

Next thing you'll be accusing me of being anti-semitic too! :mad:

[Gilgamesh]

Well... Yes and no.

Israeli born Ashkenazi Jews are an example of a European born outside of the direct influence of European culture.
Sepharadi Jews also happened to be born in geographicly Europe. So the distinction between Ashkenazi and Sepharadi proving only your ignorance. Jews have always considered themselves as seperate and distinct from any others. We Jews are not European, or American or Africans or Asians.

Well, one thing you've said is true: I can't prove that I'm Jewish on an online forum. Cause you ain't.
As an "Israeli born" you claim you are, how good is your Hebrew?

The holiday closest to us is Pesach, commemorating our ancestors exodus from Egypt. WRONG!!! It's PURIM, it's TODAY!!!! Pesach in a month time!

I need not give a specific example of Jews as a people carrying out slaughters. All you need to do is open your Tanach to see some examples. The biblical wars were justified. They carry no guilt. As a Jew, you should have known that even killing as long as its in self defense, is not considered a murder.

Why is it that as soon as I disagree with you, and say that your stereotyping is wrong, I am not a Jew? Cause I can read between your lines and sense with whom I am dealing with. I can even estimate you age and I am pretty sure of your gender and family status. All from your posts.

All I meant to say was that the Europeans as a group have done terrible things, but we are not so innocent ourselves. Horse rubbish.
And empty statement with no grounds, deserves a stupid responce.

Next thing you'll be accusing me of being anti-semitic too! :mad: No, you're just another idiot, dozens of which step into our forum every while.

[ssrt]

Err... You said which holiday is closest to us... not upon us... :eek:

Also, in case you were wondering, here in AUSTRALIA Purim was yesterday.

Also, don't kid yourself by thinking that the Jews have only ever commited the attacks in the Bible.
What about persecution of Christian Jews after the death of Jesus?

Cause I can read between your lines and sense with whom I am dealing with. I can even estimate you age and I am pretty sure of your gender and family status. All from your posts.

Tell me then. I'm curious.

Biglal she ani lo chosev bidiuk kamocha ani lo yehudi?

If you think I am so ignorant, then go ahead and correct me as you did with my reference to Ashkenazi Jews (Thanks, by the way). I have no problem being corrected, and certainly no problem learning.

As for how good my Hebrew is: You're right, it isn't great. I can still write and speak (Although not as fluently as I'd like to), but I can generally understand fairly easilly when being spoken to. My parents speak to me in Hebrew, but I find it easier to respond in English since I have been living here, in Australia, for the majority of my life.

Perhaps one day when I return to Israel I could "prove" to you that I am a Jew...

[Gilgamesh]

Err... You said which holiday is closest to us... not upon us... :eek:

Also, in case you were wondering, here in AUSTRALIA Purim was yesterday. It's a two days holiday. The socond day of Purim is called Shushan Purim.

Also, don't kid yourself by thinking that the Jews have only ever commited the attacks in the Bible.

[quote]What about persecution of Christian Jews after the death of Jesus? Quite similar to the so called "persecution" of David Koresh of the Waku, or any other cults which involve in ilegal activity. Since I am Jew, I belive Jesus (had he ever existed) to just one more round the mill wackos which infested our lands two thousand years ago. Josephus Plavious has written about this situation of his time. Jesus has absolutly no direct importance for us.

Judea was under Roman occupation, the Romans were not very democratic AFAIK. Second thing, it is wrong of you to assume that religious tollerance was as easy to have as it is today. Back then, religion was mixed with politics, and everything was approaching boiling point. Religion was used to base political agenda, which could cause a majore Roman baclash. In similar conditions today, as was in anciant judea in Jesus times, there are good chances he had similar treatment. We couldn't tolerate mad men who rocked the boat, and risked other people lives.


Tell me then. I'm curious.

Biglal she ani lo chosev bidiuk kamocha ani lo yehudi? Yoter Garu'a. Ata choshev kemo Goy. Be'ikar ha'Keta im Yeshu.

If you think I am so ignorant, then go ahead and correct me as you did with my reference to Ashkenazi Jews (Thanks, by the way). I have no problem being corrected, and certainly no problem learning. Good thing. Have patians, I am going to correct you with a lot of things.

Jews of England since 16th century, Holland, Southern Italy and the Othoman empire (Balakans, Truky and the ME), were all Sepharadis. France, Central and estern Europe were Ashkenazis.


As for how good my Hebrew is: You're right, it isn't great. I can still write and speak (Although not as fluently as I'd like to), but I can generally understand fairly easilly when being spoken to. My parents speak to me in Hebrew, but I find it easier to respond in English since I have been living here, in Australia, for the majority of my life. Classical Yored phenomena. I take it your parents are not very Zionst either.

Perhaps one day when I return to Israel I could "prove" to you that I am a Jew... No need. Come to Israel and it'll be enough.

[adrian_Müller]

The typical jewish neurotism again...:D

[Toga]

The typical jewish neurotism again...:D

Really? When your family is cooked in the ovens then please come and tell us how you feel?

The typical European German filth.

[minusthejihad]

Let me remind you all, us Jews have our hands stained with blood too, does that mean we should all be considered murderers?

Yeah right! You're about as Jewish as the pope himself. Blood on our hands? You wish.

[minusthejihad]

The typical jewish neurotism again...:D

Typical German Aryan intellectual impotence. The best part of you died in the tube.

[Toga]

Typical German Aryan intellectual impotence. The best part of you died in the tube.


There has never been a good part to him.

[minusthejihad]

What about persecution of Christian Jews after the death of Jesus?

Don't confuse Romans with Jews nor a subjugated Jewish Authority that took its orders from the Romans with Jews in general. And what the hell is a Christian Jew? Obviously, you must have picked that up in Messianic Jew or Jew for Jesus Sunday School. So what, you're lost already. What is else is new?

[minusthejihad]

There has never been a good part to him.

You are right. Baked in a good Aryan over prepared by a Nazi grandfather. It's hard to shake that type of filth from your family tree. His soul is stained for eternity.

[Mediocrates]

Not much reason to keep this open. Sorry.