Amona Video

[Leon]

Watch this shocking video

http://www.rafflebuilder.com/Arutz7/

[Mira]

Horrible.

[MicroBalrog]

We're the government.

We're here to help.

[sharonbn]

Police Chief Moshe Karadi dismisses video filmed by settlers during evacuation of Amona, tells commission of inquiry: Taking images, doing nice editing job is an art; you cannot see overall picture. Earlier, Karadi says police scarred by Amona clashes

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3225377,00.html

[mbczion]

Well, I know several people from my community that were there either as chovshim (medics) or ambulance drivers and I tend to trust what they had to say about what happened more than "Haaretz"....

Besides if 2,000 cops in full protective gear, on horses, and with clubs are needed against 6,000 mostly unarmed teenagers (no small number being girls), then those cops are a bunch of wussies hiding behind their shields, helmets, and clubs....

How do you edit a video that shows a horse trampling on a teenage girl?

[sharonbn]

The news article is from Ynet.

[perspective]

We're the government.

We're here to help.


As is usually the norm.

[mbczion]

The news article is from Ynet.

Haaretz, Ynet, Jpost, etc. I still trust the pillars of my community who were there in the capacity of medical staff volunteers over any of the mentioned media....

[minusthejihad]

How do you edit a video that shows a horse trampling on a teenage girl?

That's what I was wondering.

[NewsGuy]

Police Chief Moshe Karadi dismisses video filmed by settlers during evacuation of Amona, tells commission of inquiry: Taking images, doing nice editing job is an art; you cannot see overall picture. Earlier, Karadi says police scarred by Amona clashes


In this case, the police chief is not only wrong, but he is participating in a cover-up that reaches all the way into the top levels of the Olmert administration. That's why we've been told that no police officers will be allowed to testify in the investigation of the Amona events.

It's true that, in general, editing out certain scenes can create a false impression, but in this case, the actions filmed are precise examples of deliberate police brutality ordered by Mofaz and Olmert.

[Mira]

Edited or not, there is enough in that video to warrant a full investigation. Why are police officers not being allowed to testfy?

[Proud Jew]

It doesn't work for me.

:(

[rhodescholar]

I am sorry people, but this is utter BS. I am an american, and i follow the rule of law.

Once the decision was made by the govt to clear the houses, that was it. They set up blockades and walls, and had armed themselves when they should have been packing belongings and long gone by the time the day came to evacuate.

Whether they accepted the decision or not, if they choose to live in israel, thats the way it is.

The police pounded alot of them, and in my mind, given what happened with concrete blocks being thrown down on them - possibly should have done worse.

Re: this video, when the girl starts whining about how "not since the nazis" BS line, i stopped the video, i just couldnt take the garbage anymore. Jews need to stop comparing every freaking thing that happens to the nazis, its really enough already. I am the world greatest zionist, and would absolutely pound the arabs for what they've done, but unless israel annexes the WB, its NOT THEIRS.

[sharonbn]

hear hear

[Mediocrates]

We used to set police dogs and firehoses on black people for protesting too. Bravo.

[NewsGuy]

I am sorry people, but this is utter BS. I am an american, and i follow the rule of law.
Me too. And, for that reason, I also expect law enforcement and government officials to obey the law, as well.

So, for example, if someone breaks the law, I would not expect to see police attempt to murder the lawbreaker's wife and children, as happened in Amona.

I think that it's undeniable that the police were instructed by government officials to attempt to murder children by smashing their skulls with Billy clubs.

I'm sure that, as someone who upholds the law, you would be in favor of punishing police and government officials who broke the law, right?

Once the decision was made by the govt to clear the houses, that was it. They set up blockades and walls, and had armed themselves when they should have been packing belongings and long gone by the time the day came to evacuate.

Whether they accepted the decision or not, if they choose to live in israel, thats the way it is.
Civil disobedience is a tool available to citizens of democracies. Of course, there is a penalty to be paid, but apparently in this case, the children of Amona were willing to pay the price. The problem is that the price exacted by the police was an attempt at murdering the children, which is simply illegal.

The police pounded alot of them, and in my mind, given what happened with concrete blocks being thrown down on them - possibly should have done worse.
True. Theoretically, the police could have used machine guns, etc. But the question is whether the police felt that their lives were in danger from the protesters. In this case, the blocks were dropped by citizens being attacked by the police -- not the other way around. That's a big difference. I don't know how that will turn out from a legal standpoint, but I guess we'll find out soon.


Re: this video, when the girl starts whining about how "not since the nazis" BS line, i stopped the video, i just couldnt take the garbage anymore. Jews need to stop comparing every freaking thing that happens to the nazis, its really enough already.
The forced expulsion of a population of Jews from their land is not as trivial as "every freaking thing." These people have every right to do much more than "whine." Of course, there's no comparison here to mass extermination of Jews at the hands of the Nazis, but there is a disturbing aspect of ethnic cleansing that has not been duplicated in its scope since the days of the Nazis.

The Sharon/Olmert government has embarked on a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing of Jews (which is what forced expulsion based on religion is), and it's a huge problem that is tearing Israeli society and creating big divisions in Jewish society worldwide.

I am the world greatest zionist, and would absolutely pound the arabs for what they've done, but unless israel annexes the WB, its NOT THEIRS.

Good point. The sooner Israel clearly defines its borders, the better. But if you are saying that Israel has no jurisdiction over land is has not annexed, then it certainly has no right to expel the Jewish population of places like Gaza and the WB.

[NewsGuy]

Edited or not, there is enough in that video to warrant a full investigation. Why are police officers not being allowed to testfy?

The original excuse was that forcing individual officers to testify would hurt police morale. The "new and improved" excuse used today was that one of the police officers who took part in the attack had his car torched.

In reality, there has been a huge government attempt to stonewall the entire independent investigation into police brutality and, at this point, it looks like a pretty major coverup to protect the Olmert administration from being held liable for attempted murder of teenagers.

[minusthejihad]

Imagine if that video was Israeli Police on Arab youth. Boy, this site would be blowin up! All of the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put Israel's PR back together again.

[NewsGuy]

Imagine if that video was Israeli Police on Arab youth. Boy, this site would be blowin up! All of the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put Israel's PR back together again.

Exactly. And so too with a scenario in which Israel would forcefully expel an Arab population equivalent to the Jewish population expelled in Gaza. There would be international sanctions, UN security council action, boycotts, attacks on Jewish communities worldwide, and much more.

And speaking of the incredible hypocrisy of the Olmert government, it is now being claimed that the Amona attack was to enforce Israel's laws against "illegal housing." But, as we know, Israel is littered with an enormous amount of illegal housing of Arabs, which the government refuses to demolish, or enforce its law in any way.

The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

[minusthejihad]

Well, you can hit your own kids, but you smack the neighbor's (even if they deserve it) and that's it for you. However, I didn't know it extends to a national level.

[ssrt]

I think we can all agree that the police broke the law and deserve to be severely punished along with those who authorized such behaviour.

The far greater problem I have with this scenario is this:

The Jews at this settlement were given fair warning to evacuate. Instead of evacuating and obeying their elected government they choose to build walls, resist and cause trouble.

They selfishly stand and complain, "These are our homes! You can't take them from us!" Without thinking of the effects on their country. If these people wanted what was best for Israel they would have obeyed the law and their government and recieved their (very generous) compensation.

These people are not victims - they are criminals.

[mbczion]

rhodescholar wrote:

I am sorry people, but this is utter BS. I am an american, and i follow the rule of law.

גם בסדום היו חוקים

In Sodom there were also laws....

[NewsGuy]

They selfishly stand and complain, "These are our homes! You can't take them from us!" Without thinking of the effects on their country. If these people wanted what was best for Israel they would have obeyed the law and their government and recieved their (very generous) compensation.

These people are not victims - they are criminals.

No, they're not. They're expressing civil disobedience and are willing to undertake the legal consequences for their actions, which does not include police attempting to murder them and their children.

It's important to keep in mind that the expelled families have every right to complain about their homes being taken away. Since the establishment of Israel, every single government whether Left wing or Right wing encouraged the building of settlements and financed those homes.

The settlers are heroes who were willing to brave terrorist attacks from murderous Arabs to live freely as Jews in the Jewish homeland. Now, all of a sudden, the current government decided that it's best to ethnically cleanse certain areas of all Jewish life and the settlers, who are the pillars of the state of Israel, are now declared criminals.

Well, of course, these people are protesting it.

[rhodescholar]

Me too. And, for that reason, I also expect law enforcement and government officials to obey the law, as well.

As do i, and govt officials, like omri sharon, are prosecuted when they break it.

So, for example, if someone breaks the law, I would not expect to see police attempt to murder the lawbreaker's wife and children, as happened in Amona.

This is a terrible claim to make. I have no facts on this either way, but the gravity of this type of claim is huge. Take care and be responsible when you make claims of this magnitude.

I think that it's undeniable that the police were instructed by government officials to attempt to murder children by smashing their skulls with Billy clubs.

Uh, oh, dont go there. We both know this is absolutely false. If something as heinous as this was true, do you have any idea how likely the claims by arabs that the IDF intentionally targets them to be killed would suddenly be legitimate? That the IDF was a state-terrorist organ designed to murder arabs? I think you are over the top here.

I'm sure that, as someone who upholds the law, you would be in favor of punishing police and government officials who broke the law, right?

Without exception. If there is evidence of what you claim, bring it to an israeli prosecutor.

Civil disobedience is a tool available to citizens of democracies.

Once the date to evacuate had been published, they were no longer civil disobedients, but trespassers.

Of course, there is a penalty to be paid, but apparently in this case, the children of Amona were willing to pay the price.

The "children" were willing to pay a price? You sound like the arabs, who willingly put their children in harm's way for political brownie points.

And children dont make rational, adult decisions about situations like this, thats why they are children.

The problem is that the price exacted by the police was an attempt at murdering the children, which is simply illegal.

This is an obscene and specious claim. To accuse directly the police of intentionally targeting children for liquidation is beyond the pale. I am surprised at you for making it.

True. Theoretically, the police could have used machine guns, etc.

Once again, I simply cannot believe someone who has been following the israeli situation so long can make a claim like this.

I accept the IDF firing live rounds on arabs who throw large rocks at them - because those rocks can be lethal, so why should dropping much larger concrete blocks, even if by jews, is suddenly "civil disobedience"? You are acting like a mouthpiece for the arabs, as if you are trying to open an avenue for their propagandists to use to their advantage.

But the question is whether the police felt that their lives were in danger from the protesters. In this case, the blocks were dropped by citizens being attacked by the police -- not the other way around. That's a big difference. I don't know how that will turn out from a legal standpoint, but I guess we'll find out soon.

Huh? ANYONE, anywhere, who attacks the police is taking their lives into their hands. And given that these so-called "children" were on the roofs of buildings dropping the blocks down onto the police below tells me that they were criminals who should be prosecuted for attempted murder.

The forced expulsion of a population of Jews from their land is not as trivial as "every freaking thing." These people have every right to do much more than "whine." Of course, there's no comparison here to mass extermination of Jews at the hands of the Nazis, but there is a disturbing aspect of ethnic cleansing that has not been duplicated in its scope since the days of the Nazis.

Ugh, this is awful. "Ethnic cleansing" as a term makes no sense here. Israel is pulling out of territory where jews are vastly outnumbered, and where israel does not want to annex. Therefore, when the freely elected govt - who represents all of the israeli citizens - chose to evacuate this area, that was that. In the US, though it has been in the news alot lately, there is eminent domain. Is that, and every time a govt moves its citizens, an example of ethnic cleansing in your book?

The Sharon/Olmert government has embarked on a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing of Jews (which is what forced expulsion based on religion is), and it's a huge problem that is tearing Israeli society and creating big divisions in Jewish society worldwide.

Hardly. Even my satmar friends have admitted there is logistically no reason for retaining parts of the WB.

[NewsGuy]

So, for example, if someone breaks the law, I would not expect to see police attempt to murder the lawbreaker's wife and children, as happened in Amona.
This is a terrible claim to make. I have no facts on this either way, but the gravity of this type of claim is huge. Take care and be responsible when you make claims of this magnitude.

I think that it's undeniable that the police were instructed by government officials to attempt to murder children by smashing their skulls with Billy clubs.
Uh, oh, dont go there. We both know this is absolutely false. If something as heinous as this was true, do you have any idea how likely the claims by arabs that the IDF intentionally targets them to be killed would suddenly be legitimate? That the IDF was a state-terrorist organ designed to murder arabs? I think you are over the top here.

First, yes, the claim (and it is factual) is a terrible one. What happened at Amona is an outrage of enormous magnitude. It is the reason that the Knesset itself overruled Olmert's objection and launched an independent investigation into the instructions that police were given at Amona, which were to use Billy clubs and to specifically aim for the heads of the protesters, including teenage girls and boys. I would have to conclude that using Billy clubs to aim for the heads of people is at attempt to murder or cause serious and permanent injury.

From eyewitness accounts, these instructions came directly from the highest levels of the Olmert administration, which is now being called in for questioning in the inquiry. I believe that one of the reasons behind the police commissioner stonewalling the investigation is the uncovering of those instructions, but I guess that we have to let the inquiry proceed and see what the conclusions are.

So far, the video corroborates the other eyewitness accounts.

I'm sure that, as someone who upholds the law, you would be in favor of punishing police and government officials who broke the law, right?
Without exception. If there is evidence of what you claim, bring it to an israeli prosecutor.
It is already being investigated by a special commission that Olmert tried to block, as I said above. The investigation began about a week ago.

Of course, there is a penalty to be paid, but apparently in this case, the children of Amona were willing to pay the price.
The "children" were willing to pay a price? You sound like the arabs, who willingly put their children in harm's way for political brownie points.
And children dont make rational, adult decisions about situations like this, thats why they are children.
There is no comparison between the Arabs sending their children to die for their Jihad, and the Jewish teenagers who protected their homes and were attacked by the Israeli police.

The problem is that the price exacted by the police was an attempt at murdering the children, which is simply illegal.
This is an obscene and specious claim. To accuse directly the police of intentionally targeting children for liquidation is beyond the pale. I am surprised at you for making it.
I can understand that. I’m also appalled at the goings-on at Amona, and I wish it weren't so, but the cameras captured what the eyewitnesses are claiming. We will see the outcome of the investigation but, basically, there is overwhelming evidence that shows the atrocities committed by the police at Amona.

True. Theoretically, the police could have used machine guns, etc.
Once again, I simply cannot believe someone who has been following the israeli situation so long can make a claim like this.
I accept the IDF firing live rounds on arabs who throw large rocks at them - because those rocks can be lethal, so why should dropping much larger concrete blocks, even if by jews, is suddenly "civil disobedience"? You are acting like a mouthpiece for the arabs, as if you are trying to open an avenue for their propagandists to use to their advantage.
No, I am against the forced expulsion of Jews from any parts of the Jewish homeland, but I recognize that there must be law and order in a democracy. Still, it comes down to what actually happened that day. It was nothing like the Gaza expulsion. This was madness and Chaos, and a lot of dirty deeds were done.

The Palestinians, as a nation, are Jihadist land thieves who have gleefully mass-murdered thousands of Jews. They deserve to be targeted as harshly as possible. And yet, the Olmert administration only reserves mass population expulsions for Jews, and is willing to demonize the Jewish settlers to the point of ordering the police, and if need be, the army, to kill Jewish children in their homes. That is the shocking fact that is undisputed. The only dispute is whether the government has the legal right to do what it has done.

The forced expulsion of a population of Jews from their land is not as trivial as "every freaking thing." These people have every right to do much more than "whine." Of course, there's no comparison here to mass extermination of Jews at the hands of the Nazis, but there is a disturbing aspect of ethnic cleansing that has not been duplicated in its scope since the days of the Nazis.

Ugh, this is awful. "Ethnic cleansing" as a term makes no sense here. Israel is pulling out of territory where jews are vastly outnumbered, and where israel does not want to annex. Therefore, when the freely elected govt - who represents all of the israeli citizens - chose to evacuate this area, that was that. In the US, though it has been in the news alot lately, there is eminent domain. Is that, and every time a govt moves its citizens, an example of ethnic cleansing in your book?
No, in the U.S., there is no mass transfer of any population based on religious discrimination, which is what is going on in Israel. In the U.S., eminent domain is based on the government demonstrating an extremely high level of economic need, and it is required to compensate the land owner for the taking of the land. And as we know, even this is a hotly contested issue.

Getting back to the situation in Israel, let's say for argument's sake, that under international law, Gaza and the West bank belong to the Palestinians (even though the Palestinians rejected the original division, etc.) So, Israel may be required to relinquish sovereignty. Still, why can't Jews be permitted to remain on land that may become part of the Palestinian state? Why is everyone so eager to justify a Jew-free Palestinian state while 1.5 million Arabs are citizens of Israel?

The Sharon/Olmert government has embarked on a massive campaign of ethnic cleansing of Jews (which is what forced expulsion based on religion is), and it's a huge problem that is tearing Israeli society and creating big divisions in Jewish society worldwide.

Hardly. Even my satmar friends have admitted there is logistically no reason for retaining parts of the WB.
Sure. Satmar is anti-Zionist and does not believe in the right of Jews to return to Israel until the arrival of the Messiah. For them, there's no reason for most Jews to be anywhere in Israel at all.

But looking at the big picture, the Amona fiasco is the first of many violent confrontations between Israeli nationalists and the Olmert expulsion government. If you doubt my claims of the police brutality, please do some more research on the topic. What happened there is shocking and disappointing. Appalling, really.

Ultimately, the investigation will have to determine liability and the more we know about the police conduct, and the more transparent the hearings, the more scrutiny will be placed on future expulsions and, hopefully, there will be less violence on both sides.

[rhodescholar]

No, I am against the forced expulsion of Jews from any parts of the Jewish homeland, but I recognize that there must be law and order in a democracy. Still, it comes down to what actually happened that day. It was nothing like the Gaza expulsion. This was madness and Chaos, and a lot of dirty deeds were done.

There were problems at gaza as well, its just this time the maniacs learned from the gaza events, and increased the number of obstacles.

And yet, the Olmert administration only reserves mass population expulsions for Jews, and is willing to demonize the Jewish settlers to the point of ordering the police, and if need be, the army, to kill Jewish children in their homes. That is the shocking fact that is undisputed. The only dispute is whether the government has the legal right to do what it has done.

The settlers, who generally are religious fanatics that have prevented israel from making any kinds of major political movements for decades, and rarely serve in the army or work, should be demonized.

No, in the U.S., there is no mass transfer of any population based on religious discrimination, which is what is going on in Israel.

This "transfer" is based upon israeli citizenship, not religion. If there were non-jewish settlers, and i believe a large number are, they would have to leave as well.

In the U.S., eminent domain is based on the government demonstrating an extremely high level of economic need, and it is required to compensate the land owner for the taking of the land.

Are the settlers not being compensated in many cases/if not all?

So, Israel may be required to relinquish sovereignty. Still, why can't Jews be permitted to remain on land that may become part of the Palestinian state? Why is everyone so eager to justify a Jew-free Palestinian state while 1.5 million Arabs are citizens of Israel?

Yes, this is an obviously racist approach, but the world - and us - both know that the arabs are filth and the jews living in a "palestinian" state wont enjoy much protection from whatever leadership will exist there.

Sure. Satmar is anti-Zionist and does not believe in the right of Jews to return to Israel until the arrival of the Messiah.

My mistake. He is not Satmar, he is another sect that does support israel.

But looking at the big picture, the Amona fiasco is the first of many violent confrontations between Israeli nationalists and the Olmert expulsion government. If you doubt my claims of the police brutality, please do some more research on the topic. What happened there is shocking and disappointing. Appalling, really.

My take on the evacuations from the getgo was simple, rather than spending a penny more on top of the huge amounts wasted on the settlers, and now trying to remove them, just announce that on such and such date the IDF will pull out. So they can stay in arab land, or leave and move back to israel.

This would solve all sides neatly, noone is forced to leave, but given the option of living as a small group surrounded by hundreds of thousands of hostile arabs and no method of travelling back to israel, except maybe by helicopter, you can be certain every one of them would have ran REAL FAST out of the west bank before said deadline.

Shoot, they could have rode on the backs of tanks if they wanted.

[NewsGuy]

There were problems at gaza as well, its just this time the maniacs learned from the gaza events, and increased the number of obstacles.
The guidance given to the police force was very different. In Amona, Olmert gave instructions to brutalize the residents who were painted as enemies to be clubbed by police. In Gaza, the instructions were to be much more accommodating.

The settlers, who generally are religious fanatics that have prevented israel from making any kinds of major political movements for decades, and rarely serve in the army or work, should be demonized.
I think that this image of the settlers is not realistic. True, a few settlers are very religious people, but the vast majority is comprised of Young Israel-style families who cannot be described as fanatics in any way. They live modern lives, serve in the army, pay taxes, and are generally model citizens, much more so than so many other Israelis.

And many settlers are simply there because they are young couples with children who need the government mortgage subsidies that are available in settlements. This brings me back to the important point that all these settlements were built and paid for by the Israeli government, and the settlers were encouraged to move there through economic grants since the first settlement was established. They never prevented the government from making any political moves. The settlements actually were the government’s “moves.”

What prevented any progress was always Palestinian culture of terrorism and their national dream of mass-murdering every Jew in the Middle East.

Are the settlers not being compensated in many cases/if not all?
The Gaza settlers were offered compensation, which did not actually compensate for full value, and in many cases, the compensation was never delivered by the government, with the settlers living like homeless refugees since the time of the expulsion. A government report published about 2 weeks ago slammed the government's failure to compensate the settlers asa "fiasco." Ironically, just today I read in haaretz that 50 settler families from Gaza were finally placed into a Kibbutz.

As for Amona, I am not aware of any government compensation whatsoever. If anyone knows of such compensation, I would be interested in hearing about it.

My take on the evacuations from the getgo was simple, rather than spending a penny more on top of the huge amounts wasted on the settlers, and now trying to remove them, just announce that on such and such date the IDF will pull out. So they can stay in arab land, or leave and move back to israel.

This would solve all sides neatly, noone is forced to leave, but given the option of living as a small group surrounded by hundreds of thousands of hostile arabs and no method of travelling back to israel, except maybe by helicopter, you can be certain every one of them would have ran REAL FAST out of the west bank before said deadline.

Shoot, they could have rode on the backs of tanks if they wanted.

I agree with this approach, and I believe that the vast majority of Israelis would agree also, if it were put to a referendum. The government has no business engaging in ethnic cleansing as it has done and intends to do more of.

If Israel decides that it is withdrawing from parts of the Jewish homeland, and the settlers want to stay, they should be allowed to stay. That would be a fine approach.

But the real reason that this is unlikely to happen is that the government realizes that no sooner would the IDF leave the area, that the Palestinian savages would perpetrate a Jihad-genocide against the remaining Jewish population, which would eliminate any chance of peace in the Middle East. This is, of course, something that Olmert and other Leftists don't want to admit, because it would be an admission that there can be no peaceful coexistence with this generation of Palestinians and that all the so-called peace talks have been just a sham.

[rhodescholar]

And many settlers are simply there because they are young couples with children who need the government mortgage subsidies that are available in settlements.

Oy. Thats an argument along the lines for things like rent control, no way. If you cannot afford to live somewhere, get a better paying job, or move. Noone has a god-given right to live where they cannot afford.

This brings me back to the important point that all these settlements were built and paid for by the Israeli government, and the settlers were encouraged to move there through economic grants since the first settlement was established.

Thank you for solidifying my argument further. It was at the govt's behest and good graces these people moved there, and therefore, when the govt decided it was time to leave, it was well within its right to do so.

Even more to the point, since the govt subsidized the move there, they had even more ammunition to pull the people out.

Also, the govt never said in 1967 the settlements would be permanent. No promises were made to anyone.

They never prevented the government from making any political moves.

You know this is false. The settlers have received larger-than-warranted subsidies vis-a-vis other jewish communites, let alone the arab ones, for decades.

The settlements actually were the government’s “moves.”

Which was my point above, and therefore, the govts' choice when to pull out.

But the real reason that this is unlikely to happen is that the government realizes that no sooner would the IDF leave the area, that the Palestinian savages would perpetrate a Jihad-genocide against the remaining Jewish population, which would eliminate any chance of peace in the Middle East. This is, of course, something that Olmert and other Leftists don't want to admit, because it would be an admission that there can be no peaceful coexistence with this generation of Palestinians and that all the so-called peace talks have been just a sham.

You do realize the incinsistency in your points here.

You claimed above that olmert and the govt had ordered the police to conduct murder, but would not have accepted pulling out and leaving the jews to their fate at the hands of the arabs.

Which begs the obvious question with regards to your claim: if olmert/govt wanted them dead, he could have accomplished a trifecta by just pulling the army out:

- this would have scored alot of brownie political points when the arabs slaughtered the remaining jews
- spared the israeli police alot of trouble trying to remove them
- killed off alot of settlers he didnt like (according to you)

So why didnt they just go that route?

[Leon]

I am sorry people, but this is utter BS. I am an american, and i follow the rule of law.

Once the decision was made by the govt to clear the houses, that was it. They set up blockades and walls, and had armed themselves when they should have been packing belongings and long gone by the time the day came to evacuate.

Whether they accepted the decision or not, if they choose to live in israel, thats the way it is.

Isnt there something in your constitution which limits government interference in the lives of private citizens -- especially the right to own land? Doesnt that same constitution grant citizens the right to bear arms & overthrow a government if that same government becomes too authorterian and interferes with their lives - i.e. grabbing & seizing private property etc?

Keeping this in mind - one could a imagine what would happen in your country if the government decided to cede say parts of California or Texas to Mexico and forcibly confiscate and destroy private property in the process (throwing out all the residents and using all means at their disposal). I think the reaction from American citizens would be allot worse and would make the 'misbehaving' Israeli settlers look kind of tame.


Re: this video, when the girl starts whining about how "not since the nazis" BS line, i stopped the video, i just couldnt take the garbage anymore. Jews need to stop comparing every freaking thing that happens to the nazis, its really enough already.

Ok "Cossacks" would be a better word - since they charged like fully armed barbarians on horse back.

[Leon]

Police Chief Moshe Karadi dismisses video filmed by settlers during evacuation of Amona, tells commission of inquiry: Taking images, doing nice editing job is an art; you cannot see overall picture. Earlier, Karadi says police scarred by Amona clashes

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3225377,00.html


Of course the Police chief is going to dismiss allegations against the conduct of his police officers (i.e bashing young teenagers around the head, sexually harrassing young girls, etc). What else is he going to do?

Watch the video again - in particular the scene where armed police officers enter a room where young teenagers are passivly sitting down and start wielding their battons at the heads of these teenagers.

Ironically, the leftwing human rights group Btselem (which strongly advocates th removal of settlements) backs the settlers claims agains the police. One of their representatives is interviewed in this film. What do you think are their motives in backing the claim of the settlers against the cops? Do they have any?

[Mediocrates]

Absolutism is a fine thing. We break heads because it's the law. I accept that - I live surrounded by Rednecks who have hardons for W stickers and ribbon magnets up one side of the minivan and down the other. But I wanted to ask the law & order absolutists who are practically proud of the head bashing how they think it plays out among larger and larger population centers of Jews in Yesha? Do you think that the cops will be able to move a town of 20,000? Or is it just convenient to simply say "Well that's really hard to do so we'll call that Israel and move the Green Line?" That the power of the State is nearly limitless against small defenceless populations is hardly something for you to be proud of.


that is, everyone execept sharonbn who I know will simply have some snarky pointless thing to tell me.

[NewsGuy]

And many settlers are simply there because they are young couples with children who need the government mortgage subsidies that are available in settlements.
Oy. Thats an argument along the lines for things like rent control, no way. If you cannot afford to live somewhere, get a better paying job, or move. Noone has a god-given right to live where they cannot afford.
That's right, so they go where they can afford, which is subsidized housing in the settlements. But anyway, I brought that up to say that your characterization of the settlers as religious fanatics is simply not true in most cases.

Thank you for solidifying my argument further. It was at the govt's behest and good graces these people moved there, and therefore, when the govt decided it was time to leave, it was well within its right to do so.
Even more to the point, since the govt subsidized the move there, they had even more ammunition to pull the people out.
Also, the govt never said in 1967 the settlements would be permanent. No promises were made to anyone.
Not true. The government did indeed promise the settlements were permanent. For example, one of the most famous (now infamous) statements by Ariel Sharon was "The fate of Netzarin [a Jewish town in Gaza] is like the fate of Tel Aviv." It was the promise that the Jewish settlements would never be dismantled, just as Tel Aviv would never be dismantled. Same thing in Amona, by the way, where Sharon vowed never to leave it and called for more building.

It's not like moving chess pieces around the board. It's about people's lives and homes that were built for no other reason than the strengthening of Jewish life in the Jewish homeland.

You do realize the incinsistency in your points here.
You claimed above that olmert and the govt had ordered the police to conduct murder, but would not have accepted pulling out and leaving the jews to their fate at the hands of the arabs.
Which begs the obvious question with regards to your claim: if olmert/govt wanted them dead, he could have accomplished a trifecta by just pulling the army out:
- this would have scored alot of brownie political points when the arabs slaughtered the remaining jews
- spared the israeli police alot of trouble trying to remove them
- killed off alot of settlers he didnt like (according to you)
So why didnt they just go that route?
No inconsistency. I already explained why the government refuses to simply pull out and leave the Jewish population to fend for themselves. And, I did not claim that settlers were killed. In fact, hundreds were injured. And, it's not just my claim -- it's the fact, based on eyewitnesses and filmed events that are now under investigation by an independent prosecutor appointed by the Knesset.

As a matter of fact, there is broad consensus both on the Left and the Right that the police in Amona were guilty of using excessive force and exceptional brutality that was ordered by the Olmert administration for political gain. And one of Olmert's promises is that the day he is elected to office will be the day he orders the termination of the investigation.

[rhodescholar]

That's right, so they go where they can afford, which is subsidized housing in the settlements. But anyway, I brought that up to say that your characterization of the settlers as religious fanatics is simply not true in most cases.


Not true. The government did indeed promise the settlements were permanent. For example, one of the most famous (now infamous) statements by Ariel Sharon was "The fate of Netzarin [a Jewish town in Gaza] is like the fate of Tel Aviv." It was the promise that the Jewish settlements would never be dismantled, just as Tel Aviv would never be dismantled. Same thing in Amona, by the way, where Sharon vowed never to leave it and called for more building.

It's not like moving chess pieces around the board. It's about people's lives and homes that were built for no other reason than the strengthening of Jewish life in the Jewish homeland.


No inconsistency. I already explained why the government refuses to simply pull out and leave the Jewish population to fend for themselves. And, I did not claim that settlers were killed. In fact, hundreds were injured. And, it's not just my claim -- it's the fact, based on eyewitnesses and filmed events that are now under investigation by an independent prosecutor appointed by the Knesset.

As a matter of fact, there is broad consensus both on the Left and the Right that the police in Amona were guilty of using excessive force and exceptional brutality that was ordered by the Olmert administration for political gain. And one of Olmert's promises is that the day he is elected to office will be the day he orders the termination of the investigation.

Look we can go around and around on this.

The fact is that israel never officially annexed the west bank, so that shows that they knew it wasnt going to be permanent. If israel would have intended to stay there, they would have re-drawn their maps and included the annexed lands.

And if sharon did promise them, well...we all know how his promises fall into the category of expedient and pragmatic. Sounded nice in front of the cameras, but not for the history books.

I am just feed up with the settlers - and despite your claim the ones who remained to battle it out with the cops were religious - who if they believe in a democracy, needed to fight this decision through their elected official, or the courts. Thats how democracies work.

Do you think there is such a huge difference between the chimpanzee muslims screaming and attacking embassies, while these religious morons fight with the police?

No, modern humans are supposed to use other methods to accomplish what they seek.

[gronf]

I don't understand those Israelis. They are expelling the Arabs for decades now, driving them away seizing their land. And if nine houses were destroyed that where illegal even by Israeli standards, they say it is inhumane.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that palestinians are not human in the eyes of Israelis.

Well I thought this over and over and I did not find a reason why the Israelis should be allowed settle where they want to just driving others away who lived there before.

[Mediocrates]

Amona was built on nothing and no Arabs were displaced.

[gronf]

So whose land was it?

[Mediocrates]

Israel's

[sharonbn]

Actually the land belongs to a private individual (a Palestinian). This is according to Israel's supreme court.

[sharonbn]

The only conclusion that I can draw is that palestinians are not human in the eyes of Israelis.
Certainly not less human than the Jews were in the eyes of Germans....

[Zlatorog]

Certainly not less human than the Jews were in the eyes of Germans....

You can't make such a comparison. Our Jews were not under any kind of attack, not even verbal, until Hitler Jugend were nazified. Serbian soldiers on the borders were complaining with a slur here and there, but at that time you just had to bribe them so that they wouldn't return the foreigners. It was however an extremely dangerous route to Haifa (these people are not all Jews http://www.inv.si/psja/spomin/ljudje.htm but smugglers).

The other such route was from Trieste, where we were in our third decade of war with Fascism with no real support in Belgrade, because there was no real support anywhere else. The other problem was the commie revolution in Hungary. Our Jews in Lendava /Murska Sobota were too terrified to join the commies, so when the Hungarian army in 41 took their business, it just did, and in 44 when the Hungarian military told them that they must come infront of their synagogue, they just did, like thousands and thousands of Slovenes before them (see Eichmann and Nuremberg trials). Jews that first fled to Croatia were now fleing towards Ljubljana, that first took in our refugees from Styria and Carniola (The Reich). The Italian authorities demanded a list of Ljubljana Jews, from where they mostly sent them, and non Jews, to Italy (which is illigal today, an occupying force is not allowed to do that), Croatian refugees were returned to Croatia and we were put behind towers and barbed wire. One of these witnesses in Israel says he briefly joined the Nazis in Austria, that would have turned him in to Hitler Jugend who were beating Jews with clubs, fortunately he left in time.