Israelis now will learn about us

[Mediocrates]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=697279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0


Maybe the arrogance and snottiness I see from the Israelis is just based on ignorance. Well that's about to change as Diaspora studies is taking a hold in the Israeli school curriculum.


Students in some 100 Israeli public schools are learning, for the first time, that most Jews in the world live outside of Israel. They are part of a pilot program geared to teaching students about Diaspora Jewry and non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism, issues that have not previously been in the curriculum.

The program, designed by the Jewish Agency, is slated to be expanded to all nonreligious state-run middle schools starting in the 2007-08 school year, and ultimately to the state-religious educational system as well. The Education Ministry decided to adopt the curriculum two years ago, in the wake of a discussion held by the Knesset Immigration and Absorption Committee, in which senior ministry officials were forced to admit that Israeli students are not taught anything about Diaspora Jewry after World War II.

[physics]

Actually, most of world's Jews live in Israel in case you haven't heard. And at the current rate of intermarriage and assimilation among U.S. Jews, Israel will continue to hold world's largest Jewish population.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe you should take one of their classes unless you're afraid your head will explode.

[physics]

Why would I need to take that class? I have first hand experience, I live among American Jews.

[Mediocrates]

so you've said (http://images.art.com/images/-/Bride-of-Frankenstein--C10033930.jpeg)

[physics]

Haha, what does that supposed to mean?

[physics]

C'mon you know that a good percentage of American Jews don't even identify as Jewish. So it's a matter of few generations before a good portion of American Jewish Identity goes down the drain.

They'll be saying "Oh, one of my grandparents was Jewish, but we attend Church and celebrate Christmas...and the whole nine yards."

[physics]

I am really disgusted by American Jews who don't even identify as Jewish. They look so stupid. Of course, there are other who identify as Jews, but it's nothing more than having Jewish roots, with zero connection to anything "Jewish."

Don't worry Medio, I am not attacking the religious Jews such as yourself. I am keeping my criticism on the seculars.

[Mediocrates]

As I've said before - I'm perfectly willing to go our separate ways. You don't like us we don't like you. You're on your own.

[sharonbn]

You're willing? fine. just don't come whinning when your street is filled with crystals of glass ...

Seems to me American Jewish schools need to introduce Israeli studies .......

[Mediocrates]

They will be selling hijabs at the Kotel before that happens.

[sharonbn]

dream on

[physics]

Is it hard to understand that I criticize secular American Jews. THE RELIGIOUS JEWS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE.

The secular American Jews are in poor shape in terms of Jewish identity. At least the Israeli Jews live the dreams of men like Herzl,Ben-Gurion, Weizmann, etc.

If anything, your attitude towards the lost American Jews should be more harsh!

[physics]

Here's the reality about many secular American Jews. Those that intermarry, may be secular now, but the future generations may discover religion/culture, and they will lean towards the dominant non-Jewish religion.

But for you, secular Israelis are the most remote people from anything "Jewish." Wake up.

[Mediocrates]

Is it hard to understand that I criticize secular American Jews. THE RELIGIOUS JEWS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE.

The secular American Jews are in poor shape in terms of Jewish identity. At least the Israeli Jews live the dreams of men like Herzl,Ben-Gurion, Weizmann, etc.

If anything, your attitude towards the lost American Jews should be more harsh!

Nonsense - a review of recent Israeli history is no requirement for our identity.

[Mediocrates]

Here's the reality about many secular American Jews. Those that intermarry, may be secular now, but the future generations may discover religion/culture, and they will lean towards the dominant non-Jewish religion.

But for you, secular Israelis are the most remote people from anything "Jewish." Wake up.

Well that's the ground you've staked out. You base your identity on where you live and your recent political history. Trust me in a generation secular Israelis will be no more Jewish than secular Belgians.

[Mediocrates]

There's no point in fighting about it though. I am not Israeli and it's not really my problem to worry about what you eventually turn in to. Nor is it your issue to worry about us.

[Mediocrates]

I just thought it was an interesting project to shed some light on that shadow of ignorance Israelis have about the diaspora. And necessarily the dreaded American Jew you love to hate so much. I wouldn't expect you to know much about us because you haven't been taught it just like few of your are observant in any recognizable way so I wouldn't expect you to know everything about that either.

[sharonbn]

Nonsense - a review of recent Israeli history is no requirement for our identity.
really? then why American Jewish parents send their kids to Israeli summer camps? just for fun?

[sharonbn]

Israel today is viewed as an important, no - a crucial factor in the survival of the Jewish people and the continuation of the Jewish culture.

This view is shared by Israelis and Diaspora Jews alike (well, most of them anyway........ :rolleyes: )

[Mediocrates]

really? then why American Jewish parents send their kids to Israeli summer camps? just for fun?


Are you a parent? When you have the chance to send your teenager away from home for the summer at discount rates, tell me you turned it down.

[physics]

Are you a parent? When you have the chance to send your teenager away from home for the summer at discount rates, tell me you turned it down.

Then maybe diaspora Jews shouldn't visit Israel? after all, you feel strongly about the separation of Jews around the world, when there should be unity instead.

Trust me in a generation secular Israelis will be no more Jewish than secular Belgians.

Really? actually most Israelis will be Jewish according to the Halakah, and the Jewish identity will never disappear.

Listen, the religious diaspora Jews will always have strong connection to Israel. I can't say the same for the secular.

[Mediocrates]

Then maybe diaspora Jews shouldn't visit Israel? after all, you feel strongly about the separation of Jews around the world, when there should be unity instead.


Unlike you I don't claim to speak for everyone.



Listen, the religious diaspora Jews will always have strong connection to Israel. I can't say the same for the secular.

The alte Rebbe never visited Israel and never had a coherent answer when asked why. I suspect he believed it was unnecessary.

[sharonbn]

Are you a parent? When you have the chance to send your teenager away from home for the summer at discount rates, tell me you turned it down.
Yes I am a parent.

I, for one, would not send my child to a summer camp in the Ukraine, just becuase its cheap. If that's your line of thinking, why bother having children in the first place ........

[physics]

Why should Israelis care about Diaspora Jews who don't care much for Jewish identity and Israel?

I encourage unity between Israeli and diaspora Jews. For the most part, there are good relations between the two groups. But there are some Jews that just don't care for Israel.

The religious Jews of the world are the mostly the same, only the residence is the difference. For the secular Jews of the world, there is an extremely wide cultural gap, and the Israelis are the closest to any Jewish connection.

[physics]

American Jews were already living in America while Zionism flourished and Israel didn't even exist. They really didn't need to care about Zionism & Holocaust & Israel because it wasn't their problem anymore. But of course, many American Jews actually care, because there is something special.

[sharonbn]

Actually physics, not all religious Jews of the world "are the same" and not all care about Israel:

Anti-Zionist rabbis visit Ramallah
Delegation of Neturei Karta rabbis arrives at Palestinian parliament, greeted by Hamas members in Legislative Council that say visit proves Hamas has no 'personal, moral issues with Jews'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231357,00.html

[physics]

Actually physics, not all religious Jews of the world "are the same" and not all care about Israel:

Yes I know, unfortunately there are some 'bad apples." But religion-wise they are almost identical.

[sharonbn]

on a related note, at least Israelis feel at home in Israel and miss it when they're outside

Why Israelis return home
New poll shows increasing number of returning residents do so because of need to feel at home
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231357,00.html

[sharonbn]

Yes I know, unfortunately there are some 'bad apples." But religion-wise they are almost identical.
I have no idea what "religion-wise" means. I personally can do w/o such love and care.

[physics]

People like Mediocartes will never get it. It's sad to see some Jews miss the whole point about Israel.

[sharonbn]

That's why I suggested Israeli studies ... :D

[physics]

Do you care to share some personal info about yourself? For how long has your family been living in U.S.? I'd appreciate your answer.

[mbczion]

Well, for what it's worth, there are cultural differences between Jews in America and Jews in Israel as well as Jews in France, Belgium, England, Morroco, Ukraine, etc. I am all for the bridging of cultural gaps, but NOT at the expense of Jews all over the world feeling unity for one another and connection to our homeland - Israel....

I, for one, can handle seeing differences in political opinions in this forum, but to see hostility between Jews towards each other because X is an "American" Jew, while Y is an "Israeli" Jew, when we are all Jews in the end makes me want to cringe:(

[physics]

Have you ever considered that since 1948 Israelis have been building a state (Along With Foreign Aid Of Course) from scratch. Think about all the work that's needed. Maybe religion isn't always the first priority, but at the end of the day Jewish pride is important. Ever since 1948, it's been mostly about the JEWS in Israel.

Now look at the American Jews. Everything was already established and religious observance was ready to go. No major worries because Washington D.C. calls the shots.

[Mediocrates]

Do you care to share some personal info about yourself? For how long has your family been living in U.S.? I'd appreciate your answer.

About a hundred years. I'm 2nd Generation. None of my grandparents were born here.

[Mediocrates]

Now look at the American Jews. Everything was already established and religious observance was ready to go. No major worries because Washington D.C. calls the shots.


You really need to take that course. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Mediocrates]

People like Mediocartes will never get it. It's sad to see some Jews miss the whole point about Israel.

How is it you don't care about all the Jews outside your country either?

[physics]

About a hundred years. I'm 2nd Generation. None of my grandparents were born here.

Ok. I am sure you feel great about your family coming to the U.S. 100 years ago. You surely would feel different about Israel if they stayed in their former countries for a few decades longer.

[Mediocrates]

They'd all be dead and I wouldn't be here.

[Mediocrates]

I'll make you a deal. I love you for free - you don't owe me anything. Now go be good Jews and stop arguing with me.

[physics]

They'd all be dead and I wouldn't be here.

Exactly. But what about the Jews that stayed and died and suffered? these are today's Israeli Jews. Not everyone could come to America. So, maybe now you'll appreciate Israel more.

[physics]

I don't expect much empathy from American Jews living in America for over a century. However, I'd expect some respect for the Israeli Jews, unless you truly left your fellow Jews behind and don't really care.

[minusthejihad]

Guys, this is a pretty weak thread. I don;t think the issue deserves as much attention as you think as the American and Russian Jews I speak with every day all have various thoughts and ideas and levels thereof on thsi subject. We can't go around dividing Jews into regional and ethnic groups and then paint with a broad brush about what "they" think. If anything, its pretty obvious that within all Jewish groups in general there are Zionists, anti-Zionists, Secular, religious, etc., and within those groups as well, their affection for Israel varies. The whole argument is pointless and only serves our enemies who love nothing more than infighting. Besides, no one but g-d knows what will happen to Diaspora or Israeli Jews tomorrow so its stupid to think you know who will die off, lose their religion, etc. first. We're all brothers and sisters!

[physics]

Hey, I agree with you, and that's the point I am trying to make. I emphasize unity and criticize those Jews who deviate from Jewish people.

[physics]

I guess the question I am trying to ask is: As diaspora JEWS, how do they contribute for JEWISH cause that is significant in JEWISH history?

There are many diaspora Jews that simply have no connection to anything Jewish other than roots.

[Mira]

well...it is somewhat related: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395664291&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[physics]

The article makes some good points. Jews should contribute equally to secular and Jewish donations. But that's not the case.

[physics]

If you think about it, the article is really sad. Many wealthy Jews essentially ignore their roots/culture. What other ethnic groups does this? usually wealthy people give back the most to their own people.

[minusthejihad]

Focus on one person at a time, you'll never change everyone. Personally when I can give, I give to Jewish charities. But that's just me, I dropped my internationalist-humanist ways long ago. I know who counts (to me) and who doesn't.

[Mediocrates]

Prove Israel cares about world Jewry
Michael Freund, THE JERUSALEM POST
Mar. 22, 2006


For a country that is supposed to be concerned with safeguarding Jewish interests around the globe, Israel sure has a funny way of showing it. To get a sense of how the government views this issue, I decided to take a look at the Web site of the Ministry for Diaspora Affairs, which seemed like the natural place to start.

After all, if our elected officials went to the trouble to establish such an entity, it must surely serve as an all-inclusive repository of updated facts, figures and information about our fellow Jews around the world, right?

Well, not quite. As it turns out, the Diaspora Affairs Ministry does not even have its own Web site, which speaks volumes about the role this body plays in serving as a bridge to world Jewry. Instead, it gets a whopping total of one - count 'em, one! - Web page that is static and bereft of any useful data, and which is, moreover, buried away deep within the confines of the Prime Minister's Office site.

Worse yet, it has not been updated since last year, as it still lists Knesset Member Rabbi Michael Melchior as heading the office, even though he left the post at the end of November, when the Labor Party quit the government.

Perhaps, I thought, somewhat naively, Israel's venerable Foreign Ministry will demonstrate a slightly more sophisticated approach. After all, Israel's embassies and consulates maintain regular contact with Jewish communities and organizations worldwide. Surely, as the primary interface abroad between the State of Israel and Diaspora Jewry, the Foreign Ministry would give pride of place to the subject, on a par with its importance and centrality to the future of the Jewish people.

WRONG AGAIN. The Foreign Ministry's World Jewish Affairs Division gets a measly page of its own, with the date at the top currently listed as "4 Feb 2004."

By contrast, the Foreign Ministry devotes more Web pages to Israel's development aid to Bulgaria and Vietnam than it does to the country's ties with world Jewry.

But this is not just a matter of Internet resources, or the lack thereof. It is a symptom of the apathy and indifference that typifies the government's outlook when it comes to world Jewry.

Take, for example, the issue of Jewish religious rights. We tend to think that Jews throughout the Western world are entirely free to practice Judaism, unencumbered by any restrictions on their observance of fundamental Jewish tenets.

But that is not always the case. In a number of European countries, such as Switzerland and Norway, Jews are forbidden to slaughter animals in accordance with Jewish law, and are forced to import kosher meat from elsewhere, adding unnecessary expense and inconvenience.

Other countries, such as Sweden, have imposed restrictions on circumcision, a basic rite of passage in Jewish life. While Israel has been more vocal when it comes to matters such as rising anti-Semitism in Europe, the government is largely silent on other issues affecting Jews, as though they were of no concern or importance.

IT IS TIME for this to change. As the state of the Jewish people, Israel has an obligation to stand up and defend Jewish rights wherever they are trampled, and to speak out forcefully on their behalf.

A simple, yet compelling, step that the government could take would be to compile and publish an annual report on respect for Jewish rights worldwide, modeled on the US State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.

For nearly three decades the human rights report issued by Washington has served to raise public awareness about the state of freedom worldwide, placing many governments under the glare of international scrutiny and criticism. The most recent one, for calendar year 2005, was released just a few weeks ago.

At a March 16 congressional hearing, Assistant US Secretary of State Barry F. Lowenkron noted that these reports "serve as a reference document and a foundation for our cooperative action with other governments, organizations and individuals seeking to end human rights abuses and strengthen the capacity of other nations to protect the fundamental rights of all."

Of course, Israel does not have the diplomatic or economic clout of the US. But it most certainly has the moral standing and historic duty to press other countries when it comes to protecting the rights of Jews everywhere.

An annual Israeli government survey chronicling the state of Jewish rights worldwide would serve as an effective tool for monitoring and exposing abuses, as well as for pressuring other countries to take stronger steps to ensure the safety and freedom of their Jewish populations. It would underline and reaffirm Israel's commitment, centrality and responsibility for Jews around the globe and serve to focus the nation's attention on the fate of our brethren in the Diaspora.

So whatever new government may come to power after next week's elections, here's hoping it will devote a little more time and effort to looking out for our fellow Jews. That, after all, is our raison d'etre.

The writer is founder and chairman of Shavei Israel, which assists "lost Jews" seeking to return to their people. www.shavei.org (http://www.shavei.org/)

=============================================
Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:michael@womeningreen.org (michael@womeningreen.org)
http://www.womeningreen.org (http://www.womeningreen.org/)

[sharonbn]

If the Jews of Sweden, Switzerland and Norway find it difficult to live there due to religious persecution, then actually there is something they can do about it ....

[diaspora]

On the eve of Israel's elections, Israelis should be deeply concerned about the state of our relations with the United States.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395665010&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[physics]

IT IS TIME for this to change. As the state of the Jewish people, Israel has an obligation to stand up and defend Jewish rights wherever they are trampled, and to speak out forcefully on their behalf.

Wrong. Israel has no right and power to change policies of other countries. It can only open it's gates and welcome Jews. If some Jews are truly not happy by the restrictions, such as in switzerland and sweden, then they would move.

[physics]

Israel has no power to change Iran's policies and allow full freedom for the Iranian Jews. It'd be much easier to welcome the Iranian Jews than change a whole government. By the way, what the helk are Iranian Jews doing there? are they restricted to leave?

[genghis_tom]

Wrong. Israel has no right and power to change policies of other countries.
I assume you believe this for other countries as well. If so, do you support the US in Iraq, regardless of whether you think it is a good cause?

[physics]

I assume you believe this for other countries as well. If so, do you support the US in Iraq, regardless of whether you think it is a good cause?

Look, Israel doesn't have the right or power to change other countries' civil policies as minor as restriction of kosher food and brit milah.

The war in Iraq is an extremely different case. It was initiated because of security concerns. But in practice, no one should interfere in other places unless the other people ask for help.

[physics]

Here is a more relevant argument. During Soviet Era, Israel had no power to change Soviet policies regarding Jews. Israel could of demanded anything it wanted, but the Soviet's wouldn't listen. The best solution was to plea for the release of Jews from Soviet Union, and Israel opened its gates.

[minusthejihad]

My sister works for the JFS. She tells me that dealing with the Israeli Embassy is the most frustrating thing in the world. They are incredably rude compared to other nation's embassies. When she ever says anything like, "Hey, I'm trying to help Jews come there to visit and enjoy the Jewish experience", they reply with, "We don't care waht you want, if you don't like this process, don't come! Click! Dial tone."

Next I'd imagine how tough it is to get through El Al Security! :)

[physics]

Bureaucracy is often annoying.

[Hebrew Swede]

You're willing? fine. just don't come whinning when your street is filled with crystals of glass.

An equally paranoid Diaspora Jew could claim Israel is unsafe and risk being nuked by Iran. Truth is that you won't find any safe place on Earth both as a Jew or non-Jew, unless you move to a peaceful suburb or country side and live the rest of your life in boredom.

I live in L.A. and tell everyone I'm Jewish, the majority of Gentiles like Jews over here. There is a huge orthodox community close to where I live and they are not bothered.

Besides, Jews cannot fight anti-Semitism by ourselves - we tried that in the past - so we need the help of Gentiles. And if we want their help we must show trust and not be paranoid about a second Holocaust. I do see progress: the older and smarter civilisation becomes, the more Gentiles realize the beauty of the Jewish people, accept and even love us.

Ohev Yisrael, Sweden and the USA!

[minusthejihad]

Skol! And welcome to IF!

[NewsGuy]

Israel today is viewed as an important, no - a crucial factor in the survival of the Jewish people and the continuation of the Jewish culture.

This view is shared by Israelis and Diaspora Jews alike (well, most of them anyway........ :rolleyes: )

That's true now. But I wonder for how much longer that will be true if the Israelis keep on giving away more of the Jewish homeland. At what point will Jews living outside of Israel stop identifying with an Israel that is basically a quaint European shopping mall?

Already, there is a very big disconnect between how Jews living outside Israel view the land of Israel, as the Jewish homeland, vs. how they view the Israelis themselves. There is less and less kinship between American Jews and Israelis.

[Hebrew Swede]

Actually, most of world's Jews live in Israel in case you haven't heard. And at the current rate of intermarriage and assimilation among U.S. Jews, Israel will continue to hold world's largest Jewish population.

I heard different estimates, but the World Jewry population is somwhere between 13 and 15 million, whereas Israel accommodates 5.x million Jews. Do the math!

However, I heard recently that Israeli Jewry is soon to pass American Jewry in numbers. To me it's cool either way.

I think it's good that Israeli Jewish life is different from American Jewry. It adds to the diversity and enrich the Jewish culture. I think a lot of Israeli Jews act macho, which is okay, as long as they have a gentle heart, which a good portion of them have. The Israelis remind me many times of my macho Christian Syriac friends in Sweden. Don't put all eggs in one basket - don't put all Jews in Israel.

[Hebrew Swede]

Skol! And welcome to IF!

Skål! L'chaim!

Matisyahu rocks! So does Lior Ashkenazi, Dustin Hoffman and Jon Stewart!

[sharonbn]

First of all, welcome Hebrew Swede.

You can still get run over by a car in "a peaceful suburb", or get shot by former state secrateries when you're in the country side. Nowhere is safe for no one. That was not my point.

What I mean is this: you can live in peace and prosperity for generations in Your typical American metropolin, or rural community. However, you can never expect your neighbor to forget your origin and you can never afford the luxury of cutting all ties with Israel and not caring about its future and well being, like Medio constantly states here.

Living in Israel is of course, a risky business. Nevertheless, Israel is still the only home of the Jewish people and the only place on earth that's gurenteed to accept persecuted Jews. Ask your fellow French Jews, who come in increasing numbers to Israel.

Israel may need Diaspora Jews' financial support as well as its strong lobby in capitol hill, I don't belittle these important factors. However, we Israelis are not interested in the Diaspora as a standalone value and we will never understand why Jews choose to live anywhere else. We Israelis truely believe that if all Jews made aliyah to Israel it will make their lives better as well as ours. kind of a win-win situation :D

[physics]

I heard different estimates, but the World Jewry population is somwhere between 13 and 15 million, whereas Israel accommodates 5.x million Jews. Do the math!

Recent stats show that American Jewish population has been declining over the years. That's sad. The stats imply that although some might have Jewish roots, they do not identify as Jewish.

[physics]

Where did the majority of Israelis come from? distressed and horrible places.
You can forget about most of the diaspora Jews that settled elsewhere over a century ago. But it'd be nice if they could at least maintain good relations with Israel.

[sharonbn]

That's true now. But I wonder for how much longer that will be true if the Israelis keep on giving away more of the Jewish homeland. At what point will Jews living outside of Israel stop identifying with an Israel that is basically a quaint European shopping mall?
If you care so much about Israel and believe that Israelis are doing bad things to the country, why not do something about it? You can sit a far and watch and complain, or come here and make a difefference.

[physics]

We Israelis truely believe that if all Jews made aliyah to Israel it will make their lives better as well as ours. kind of a win-win situation

Think about how great Israel would be if all the Jews settled there. The world would surely have some important losses. But that's only a dream...:rolleyes:

[sharonbn]

Where did the majority of Israelis come from? distressed and horrible places.
That is not entirely correct. The second and third waves of aliyah, before and after WWI were young idealist (i.e. communist) zionists that came from middle class jewish european families. They were the ones who built all the Kibutzim and "homa umigdal" settlements, who dried the swamps and basically created the zionist myth and legend. Perhaps the most famous exampe was Hanna Sennesh who came from a well established family in Budapest.

The immigrants from north africa and the arab states were also among the financial elite. Iraq Jews held huge real estate assets as well as well established trade and commerce. It is estimated that Iraq Jews left behind 1 billion US$ worth of assets, in today's terms.

In contrast, the majority of masses of poor rusian Jews that fled the tzar era persecutions, went to ..... America.

[physics]

Of course there were elite Israeli immigrants. And although they had success in their countries, Anti-Semitism was rising until reaching the peak in WWII era.

[physics]

Success & wealth isn't sweet when you are surrounded by a majority hostile people.

[sharonbn]

The Jews in Germany were fully integrated into the German society in the beginning of 20th cent. They held high ranks in the German army in WWI, they held official gov't positions and were strongly present in the financial and banking areas.

The German Jews did not experience Anti-Semitism until the 30s depression and the rise of Nazism.

I don't know what you meant by "distressed and horrible places" but if you think that the US cannot turn nasty on the Jews - you're deluding yourself.

[physics]

I don't know what you meant by "distressed and horrible places" but if you think that the US cannot turn nasty on the Jews - you're deluding yourself.

For the Jews, Distressed and horrible certainly describes Europe under the Nazis. It also describes the Mizrahi and North African countries after Israel's establishment. At some point, the Israeli Jews were in bad conditions.

[NewsGuy]

If you care so much about Israel and believe that Israelis are doing bad things to the country, why not do something about it? You can sit a far and watch and complain, or come here and make a difefference.
I don't live in Israel for financial, social, and family reasons.

And the way Israel is set up, I would not be able to make a difference one way or the other. Actually, I have much more influence sitting here, far way, in my current position than I would have in Israel.

However, we Israelis are not interested in the Diaspora as a standalone value and we will never understand why Jews choose to live anywhere else. We Israelis truely believe that if all Jews made aliyah to Israel it will make their lives better as well as ours. kind of a win-win situation
Of course it would be better for Israel to have more smart, talented, successful Jews move there, but Israelis are not doing anything to make Israel particularly attractive to those Jews.

From a financial standpoint, Israel is very bad for new small businesses and for integrating in to the workforce as a mid or upper level employee.
Very often, success in Israel is based on 2 principles:
1) "bakshish" (under-the-table payoffs) and,
2) "proteksia" (nepotism).

Neither is a good starting point for new arrivals.

Living in Israel also involves a constant struggle in every single aspect of life. Standing on line for a bus usually turns into a shoving match, as is standing in a grocery store, or doing just about anything that brings you into direct contact with typical Israelis. You can, of course, expect to be ripped off at any opportunity unless you really understand all aspects of your surroundings.

Foreigners are also excluded by Israeli society. For example, Russian immigrants are "Russians," and American immigrants are always "Americans." It is not easy to integrate unless you grew up there.

When I grew up in Israel, I saw things from the point of view of an Israeli, but also as an American. I would say that of all the potential immigrants, Anglo Saxons would have the hardest time fitting in, even after many years. It’s an absolute culture shock.

The Israeli schools are filled with record incidents of violence to the point that a parent would be nuts to move to Israel with kids.

And there are many more reasons why Diaspora Jews would not be well served in Israel, although for some, like French Jews growing up with rampant anti-Semitism, or very religious Jews, there might be some good incentive.

But for the rest of us, Israel is not very attractive, nor does it offer a better life. I am not complaining, but just stating the reasons that there is not more immigration to Israel.

[NewsGuy]

I don't know what you meant by "distressed and horrible places" but if you think that the US cannot turn nasty on the Jews - you're deluding yourself.
There are more safeguards here than were in Germany, buy you're right -- if there is a surge in anti-Semitism, then the whole equation would change and American Jews might calculate that living in Israel would be an improvement. And that's why there still is support for Israel as the Jewish homeland: The last refuge for Jews.

[Hebrew Swede]

you can live in peace and prosperity for generations in Your typical American metropolin, or rural community. However, you can never expect your neighbor to forget your origin and you can never afford the luxury of cutting all ties with Israel and not caring about its future and well being, like Medio constantly states here.

You're both right and wrong. First off, I love Sweden, eventhough it's boring, and the people reserved and silly (in a dorky way), socialist, anti-Zionist, et cetera. I am also aware, according to a recent study that alarmed Sweden, that every third Swede have partly anti-Jewish views and every 20th Swede suffers from severe Jew-hatred. However, Sweden is my home and birthplace and I have childhood memories and old friends there, all non-Jewish. Swedes also share many Jewish traits, such as simplicity, moderation, debate and dialogue.

My philippino friend loves me and knows I'm Jewish, they just see all Westerners as white. My Norweigan friend has made some remarks when we were drunk, but the next day he felt very guilty and went on jabbering about how all people are equal. Besides, since we're gym partners, he knows I am physically stronger and can kick his a$$ any time I feel like it. :D

Living in Israel is of course, a risky business. Nevertheless, Israel is still the only home of the Jewish people and the only place on earth that's gurenteed to accept persecuted Jews. Ask your fellow French Jews, who come in increasing numbers to Israel.

I agree, but I'm not persecuted. I have yet to visit Israel though, but I'm sure I will.

Israel may need Diaspora Jews' financial support as well as its strong lobby in capitol hill, I don't belittle these important factors.

Financial support from Jews and independent organisations, yes. But not American tax dollars. Israel can do without the extra 2-4 billion Israel receives annually. Free money makes people lazy and less resourceful. Remember the history behind the Matzah or the ghettos of Nazi-Germany? Jews were extremely resourceful then, because we had no help, and still we managed with the little we had.

However, we Israelis are not interested in the Diaspora as a standalone value and we will never understand why Jews choose to live anywhere else.

That's what I'm trying to explain to you now.

We Israelis truely believe that if all Jews made aliyah to Israel it will make their lives better as well as ours. kind of a win-win situation :D

We'll see after I visit Israel. Plus, I want to investigate if the "law of return" is morally right, and if it shouldn't expire at some point. I might feel funny about entering Israeli citizenship w/o waiting in line, like non-Jews.

[physics]

Immigration is never an easy process. Economics is a big reason for many of Israel's problems. Maybe Israelis would treat eachother better if most of them were well off financially. But it takes time to succeed and settle in. You can't ever expect something to change overnight.

Moving to Israel requires to look past beyond the problems and have some belieft in idealism. It certainly would require careful planning.

[Hebrew Swede]

Recent stats show that American Jewish population has been declining over the years. That's sad. The stats imply that although some might have Jewish roots, they do not identify as Jewish.

What's the source of those stats? I can't go by hearsay. Besides, I'm living in America and know how things are here. A lot of secular Jews here have a strong Jewish cultural and ethnic identity, like me. I'm not religious or a big believer in God (or G-d) at this point in my life, but I value the wisdom of the Torah. I know for example that being opinionated is un-Jewish. And I see lots of opinionated religious Jews in this forum.

What you're saying might be true about Sweden (inhabiting roughly 18 000 very assimilated Jews), but not America, at least not L.A. and Cali.

[physics]

It's not hearsay, it's the truth. Just google terms like 'Jewish intermarriage' and 'American Jews.'

It's great to hear that Jews hold on to their identity. But sometimes I have to wonder about the American Jews who don't know Hebrew, don't know a drop about Judaism, never been to Israel, neutral to Israel...they only know about Bar-Mitzvah.

[Hebrew Swede]

It's not hearsay, it's the truth. Just google terms like 'Jewish intermarriage' and 'American Jews.'

I see, self-service. Just like Sweden. :D I thought you would offer me a link to a specific article you read.

It's great to hear that Jews hold on to their identity. But sometimes I have to wonder about the American Jews who don't know Hebrew, don't know a drop about Judaism, never been to Israel, neutral to Israel...they only know about Bar-Mitzvah.

Hebrew is a beautiful and easy language to learn, but speaking Hebrew doesn't make you Jewish, only on the surface. Israeli and many Palestinian non-Jewish Arabs and Asian guest workers speak Hebrew.

I never had my Bar-Mitzvah, I'm not circumcised yet, don't speak fluent Hebrew, don't know the 613 or whatever commandments. However, I am deeply passionate about my people, support Israel as a Jewish state, I know what Nasser did and how much the Jews loved Egypt before we got kicked out, I know about the Maccabees fight against the Greek Syrians and all the amazing history behind Hanukkah, I know the things Jews invented and the many reasons to be proud about being Jewish..... I don't know it all, but I know some. Am I less Jewish than you?

Don't be so freakin' worried about the future. Leave the weak Jews alone and filter them out. Let them convert to Islam, Christianity or whatever. If they didn't do that, they'd do some other crazy stuff to embarrass themselves and the Jewish people. The strong Jews won't need yours or Israel's pressure, but automatically connect with the Jewish people and do great things for mankind.

[golani]

Well that's the ground you've staked out. You base your identity on where you live and your recent political history. Trust me in a generation secular Israelis will be no more Jewish than secular Belgians.

Sorry,Medio
As a former secular Belgian,I do not agree
Secular israelis will remain jewish because,willingly or not,they have a life rythmed by big jewish festivals
Whether they live in TA,Galil ,Golan heihts or Negev,they are exposed to passive jewish influence and I do think it might be enough to keep them in the mould
Shavua tov,
Golani

[mbczion]

sharonbn wrote:

Living in Israel is of course, a risky business. Nevertheless, Israel is still the only home of the Jewish people and the only place on earth that's gurenteed to accept persecuted Jews. Ask your fellow French Jews, who come in increasing numbers to Israel.

Sharon, I might not see eye to eye with you politically, but I have to agree with the above....Jews only have one homeland and it is here- Israel....

[physics]

Leave the weak Jews alone and filter them out.

Right. We should give up on the weak Jews and just move on.


Secular israelis will remain jewish because,willingly or not,they have a life rythmed by big jewish festivals
Whether they live in TA,Galil ,Golan heihts or Negev,they are exposed to passive jewish influence and I do think it might be enough to keep them in the mould

Absolutely right. Medio just can't understand this concept.

[sharonbn]

For the Jews, Distressed and horrible certainly describes Europe under the Nazis. It also describes the Mizrahi and North African countries after Israel's establishment. At some point, the Israeli Jews were in bad conditions.
Your statement comes with the advantage of hindsight. My point is that American Jews today feel safe and secure. They flourish under the protection of democracy and law. The same as the German jews felt at the turn of the last cent.

Don't be fooled to think you're forever safe among gentiles and don't think they won't turn on you when the economy hits a slump.

[physics]

Hebrew is a beautiful and easy language to learn, but speaking Hebrew doesn't make you Jewish, only on the surface. Israeli and many Palestinian non-Jewish Arabs and Asian guest workers speak Hebrew.

The gentiles who speak Hebrew do it for one reason, WORK. For the Jews, Hebrew is special and personal.

[sharonbn]

I don't live in Israel for financial, social, and family reasons.
and I wish you and your family long and prosperous life. I still think you'd be better off here.

And the way Israel is set up, I would not be able to make a difference one way or the other. Actually, I have much more influence sitting here, far way, in my current position than I would have in Israel.
I disagree. IMO, Having a sinlge vote in the Israeli elections is mightier than having great influence from a far. One can always dismiss an individual as having negligent effect on reality, but being an insider, being involved, living the process carries with it a great feeling of strength, as I am sure you too feel regarding American politics.

Of course it would be better for Israel to have more smart, talented, successful Jews move there, but Israelis are not doing anything to make Israel particularly attractive to those Jews.
I disagree. Israeli law book and policy reflects the desire to support Jewish newcomers. Israel has gone to a great length to save Jews in distress. For instance, the aerial operaion in which the majority of ethiopian Jewry was brought to Israel is a testament of Israel's commitment to save Jews wherever they are. I am sure Israel will benefit from that operaion in the long run.

From a financial standpoint, Israel is very bad for new small businesses and for integrating in to the workforce as a mid or upper level employee.
Very often, success in Israel is based on 2 principles:
1) "bakshish" (under-the-table payoffs) and,
2) "proteksia" (nepotism).
This viewpoint is outdated by some 30 years. bakshish? this term was used in the 60s. bribery exists mainly where it exists all over the western world - namely politics. The industrial and commerce areas are mostly clean and efficient.
proteksia? perhaps if you are after a public office. but in the private sector this is a non existent phenomena.

The sotringest Israeli industry is the high tech one. The market which Israeli conpanies compete is the global market. How would they be so successful if they were plagued with bribery and nepotism?

Living in Israel also involves a constant struggle in every single aspect of life. Standing on line for a bus usually turns into a shoving match, as is standing in a grocery store, or doing just about anything that brings you into direct contact with typical Israelis. You can, of course, expect to be ripped off at any opportunity unless you really understand all aspects of your surroundings.
Its nice to see you have such high regard for Israelis. Of course there are negative aspects to Israeli society and culture. and of course there are positive ones. You can expect rare occasions of violence in the street. You can talk to whomever you meet in the street w/o meeting such warming response like "WTF you're looking at" which I personally got when I gazed for a second too long over a guy in the NY subway. If your car breaks down - you can expect a friendly hand from fellow motorists, oh and if, god forbid, you suffer a heart attack in the middle of the street you can expect to get immediate help. In short - we Israelis are blunt rude and pushy but we're also informal warm and responsive.
Liie I said, negative and positive.

Foreigners are also excluded by Israeli society. For example, Russian immigrants are "Russians," and American immigrants are always "Americans." It is not easy to integrate unless you grew up there.
with respect to pluralism, Israeli society is not that dissimilar from American one. You sure have your rich vocabulary to describe the various ethnic groups that make up American society. Prejudice and stereotyping is also abundant. That is the problem of all immigrant based societies. Israeli society is also famous for its tolerance toward certain minorities, for example, homosexuals.

The Israeli schools are filled with record incidents of violence to the point that a parent would be nuts to move to Israel with kids.
No Israeli kid ever got shot by a fellow student. Not a single incident in 57 years.

But for the rest of us, Israel is not very attractive, nor does it offer a better life. I am not complaining, but just stating the reasons that there is not more immigration to Israel.
Well, like I've said in the beginning, I wish you happy secure life. Israel is like an insurance - you want to keep it an option and hope you'll never have to use it. and like you've said: when anti-Semitism becomes a problem, you won't ponder about Israeli attitude or education system.

[sharonbn]

There are more safeguards here than were in Germany, buy you're right -- if there is a surge in anti-Semitism, then the whole equation would change and American Jews might calculate that living in Israel would be an improvement. And that's why there still is support for Israel as the Jewish homeland: The last refuge for Jews.
I'm glad to hear that Jews still believe in supporting Israel and caring for its fate. I assume the likes of Medio are a minority.

[sharonbn]

You're both right and wrong. First off, I love Sweden, eventhough it's boring, and the people reserved and silly (in a dorky way), socialist, anti-Zionist, et cetera. I am also aware, according to a recent study that alarmed Sweden, that every third Swede have partly anti-Jewish views and every 20th Swede suffers from severe Jew-hatred. However, Sweden is my home and birthplace and I have childhood memories and old friends there, all non-Jewish. Swedes also share many Jewish traits, such as simplicity, moderation, debate and dialogue.

My philippino friend loves me and knows I'm Jewish, they just see all Westerners as white. My Norweigan friend has made some remarks when we were drunk, but the next day he felt very guilty and went on jabbering about how all people are equal. Besides, since we're gym partners, he knows I am physically stronger and can kick his a$$ any time I feel like it. :D
for the love of god, get the hell out of there, man! pleeeeeeeeeeease.....

I agree, but I'm not persecuted. I have yet to visit Israel though, but I'm sure I will.
I guess it is subjective, but having derogatory remarks from a "friend" sounds to my never-persecuted ears as persecution. I just hope you can tell when harmless harrasement becomes threatening situtions and save yourself in time. The German Jews told themselves that they just have to sit and wait till hitler goes away...

Financial support from Jews and independent organisations, yes. But not American tax dollars. Israel can do without the extra 2-4 billion Israel receives annually. Free money makes people lazy and less resourceful. Remember the history behind the Matzah or the ghettos of Nazi-Germany? Jews were extremely resourceful then, because we had no help, and still we managed with the little we had.
This is besides the point, but I agree. Israel can do w/o American aid.

That's what I'm trying to explain to you now.
Until now I understood that you used to live among people with evident anti-zionist opinions and anti Jewish sentiments and experienced first hand anti-Semitism. I must say you're doing a lousy job at explaining diaspora mindset. I also understand you already immigrated at least once in your life and no longer live in your birthplace with all the childhood memories etc. so if you've left that, why not come to Israel?

We'll see after I visit Israel. Plus, I want to investigate if the "law of return" is morally right, and if it shouldn't expire at some point. I might feel funny about entering Israeli citizenship w/o waiting in line, like non-Jews.
Spoken like a true swede... :D

[physics]

My point is that American Jews today feel safe and secure. They flourish under the protection of democracy and law. The same as the German jews felt at the turn of the last cent.

Jews wouldn't be the only minority that the Americans would turn against. And if it happened, Jews would actually have a place to escape. :)

[physics]

I am curious about American Jews actions towards American holidays. I am particularly curious about American Jews actions during Thanksgiving.

Any ideas?

[Hebrew Swede]

I guess it is subjective, but having derogatory remarks from a "friend" sounds to my never-persecuted ears as persecution. I just hope you can tell when harmless harrasement becomes threatening situtions and save yourself in time. The German Jews told themselves that they just have to sit and wait till hitler goes away...

Yes, I think I'm intelligent enough to distinguish ignorance and prejudice from a life threatning situation. If I wasn't Jewish, he could've had prejudice about me being fat, if I was fat or being homosexual, if I was homosexual.

I also understand you already immigrated at least once in your life and no longer live in your birthplace with all the childhood memories etc. so if you've left that, why not come to Israel?

I moved to L.A. for the film industry. I know there's a film industry in Israel, but at this point in my life I prefer to work here. But like I said before, I would love to visit Israel.

Spoken like a true swede... :D

Don't patronize. I can't get rid of my Swedishness even if I wanted to. Maybe I'm not good enough to live in Israel. I would probably just turn everything upside down.

[Hebrew Swede]

I am curious about American Jews actions towards American holidays. I am particularly curious about American Jews actions during Thanksgiving.

Any ideas?

I celebrate thanksgiving, it's a good holiday. It's great to show gratitude for what you have in life, just as it's great to repent during Yom Kippur, for things you did wrong.

[physics]

I celebrate thanksgiving, it's a good holiday. It's great to show gratitude for what you have in life, just as it's great to repent during Yom Kippur, for things you did wrong.

Thanks for your feedback. But I am curious about most American Jews interactions with American holidays. By the way, Thanksgiving has some Christian-related theme, and Jews don't have any historical connection to this event. But I guess this has become an accepted day among all Americans.

[physics]

Are selfish & blind hypocrites. American & Israeli Jews escaped from the same places. The American Jews live in the comfort of America, yet some criticize and disrespect Israelis for trying to do the same, live a better life. Give me a break.

[sharonbn]

Medio, is this what you meant ?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3238252,00.html

[Mediocrates]

American Jewish support of Israel hovers in the 47-50% range based on every survey and public policy inquiry of the past 5 years. You Sabras over there can spin that however you want and quote Israeli newspapers that say something different. You know not what of you speak.

[Saffira]

Israel today is viewed as an important, no - a crucial factor in the survival of the Jewish people and the continuation of the Jewish culture.

This view is shared by Israelis and Diaspora Jews alike (well, most of them anyway........ :rolleyes: )


I share your views Sharonbn, just because I am not Israeli, doesn't mean that I don't have Israel in my life, because I do, I spend my holidays in Israel, and hope to go back this year, I had family living in Israel in 1947 and my husband used to live in Israel back in the early 80's.

I know there are Jews who have never been to Israel, I know of people in my own community who won't visit Israel because they fear the terrorism. But this does not put me off, I will not let terrorism stop me from travelling. We have Israelis in our community, they have families living in Israel. We very much have Israel in our lives, having mostly Israelis in our community, for those who do not get over to Israel, they still live very much, a strong Jewish life.