UNESCO Censorship (Censoring Jewish life in Europe) for Ottoman Archives

[Khazar]

Lewis stated that after fully researching the matter that there is no doubt many Armenians were killed but they were not subjected to a planned and systematic genocide perpetrated by the highest Ottoman orders.

Nobody is denying Armenians died that is a fact, the problem is with determing this as a genocide, another problem is totally overlooking the fact that more Turks died in that war in which there was a revolution, a World Empire Crumbled and 20-30 states were created.

The majority of the Armenian claims are nonsense and have no historical credibility, once the surface is scratched the material is more than wobbly.

There are alot of non-Turkish historians who are now beginning to state with facts to back it up that the events cannot be called "genocide".

When the Holocoust Tribunal was carried out do you realise how much evidence there was? there was not a few suspect documents, there was not a few dubious accounts there were literally thousands upon thousands of hard-core evidence.

Infact alot of material was even rejected as it didn't meet the standards for a court of law, for example the Armenian claims of Hitlers phrases about the Armenians, that was rejected by the courts because it was a fabrication and wouldn't stand up in the court of law.

The sad part is the Armenian side totally rejects the idea that Turks suffered in the war and prior to it, millions were ethnically cleansed from the Caucauses and Balkans, this is only starting to be researched by the West after all these years.

Now we can carry on arguing here but its just going to get Serdar's thread closed like the countless other threads that have been closed.

[Cellis]

there should be Turkish-Armenian platform to discuss these issues and try to find a road map to end Turkish-Armenian conflict.

How to normalize ties? How to end arguments?

[Khazar]

People should discard Nationalism and look into the facts and more importantly realise that today especially Armenians should realise this by acting like this they are ruining Armenia and putting its future into jeoprady.

Its missed out on the B.T.C pipeline, its now missed out on the rail-link project, the Kazakh and Turkmen pipelines want to connect to the B.T.C, the region is being re-vitallised.

Armenia could have been the key player in all this, its situation is right between Turkey and Azerbaijan, in addition Armenia could have become the regional energy base and transit hub but has missed out on this all and if it doesn't wake up soon just like Hovannisian said, it will become a failed state.

[1.5 million]

there should be Turkish-Armenian platform to discuss these issues and try to find a road map to end Turkish-Armenian conflict.

How to normalize ties? How to end arguments?

There was once quite an enlightened forum called the Turkish-Armenian Communications Team (TACT) on net54. We had a great core bunch of Turks and Armenians who were trying to work through some issues. We tried to put rhetoric aside and talk at deeper issues then normally occur between Turks and Armenians on this. It worked well for a while but did not maintain - in part because of invasion of highly partisan haters (on both sides). Anyway - among the core group (including the Turks) there was no contention that a genocide did not happen. It was assumed. We were interested in exploring the causation and understanding better each sides perspectives as well as exchanging thoughts and ideas and feelings on things other then the genocide - particualrly concerning our mutual Anatolian heritage. I still keep in touch with some of the folks...in fact was invited to a wedding in Turkey last year but couldn't make it and have been invited boating on the tourquois coast by another. I have real life Turkish friends BTW - several. One family we know is from the same area as we are - a town called Divrig/Divrik...we have even talked of going there together...though more often we talk of going to Bodrum and such...

[1.5 million]

People should discard Nationalism and look into the facts and more importantly realise that today especially Armenians should realise this by acting like this they are ruining Armenia and putting its future into jeoprady.

Its missed out on the B.T.C pipeline, its now missed out on the rail-link project, the Kazakh and Turkmen pipelines want to connect to the B.T.C, the region is being re-vitallised.

Armenia could have been the key player in all this, its situation is right between Turkey and Azerbaijan, in addition Armenia could have become the regional energy base and transit hub but has missed out on this all and if it doesn't wake up soon just like Hovannisian said, it will become a failed state.

Again this isn't the issue here - you are essentially making a threat. Armenia is not the one who has closed the border BTW and who won't re-open it without conditions...

[1.5 million]

Lewis stated that after fully researching the matter that there is no doubt many Armenians were killed but they were not subjected to a planned and systematic genocide perpetrated by the highest Ottoman orders.

In fact Lewis admitted to falsely portraying the Armenian Genocide as an Armenian view and he agreed that it is the view held by the vast majority of non-Armenian international scholars. Lewis has never fully researched this issue btw - he devotes all of what 3 lines to it in hs book on the history of Turkey...

Nobody is denying Armenians died that is a fact, the problem is with determing this as a genocide, another problem is totally overlooking the fact that more Turks died in that war in which there was a revolution, a World Empire Crumbled and 20-30 states were created.

Sounds like Nazi apologists again...doesn't hold even if true - that more Turks died then Armenians - more germans died then Jews...yawn

The majority of the Armenian claims are nonsense and have no historical credibility, once the surface is scratched the material is more than wobbly..

total BS

There are alot of non-Turkish historians who are now beginning to state with facts to back it up that the events cannot be called "genocide"..

alot? I would say what is a more interesting development are the number of Turkish scholars that are admitting and writting about it...

When the Holocoust Tribunal was carried out do you realise how much evidence there was? there was not a few suspect documents, there was not a few dubious accounts there were literally thousands upon thousands of hard-core evidence.

Infact alot of material was even rejected as it didn't meet the standards for a court of law, for example the Armenian claims of Hitlers phrases about the Armenians, that was rejected by the courts because it was a fabrication and wouldn't stand up in the court of law..

This is incorrect. I could post pages on this but I will just let it stand that this is an incorrect portryal. The Hiterl quote has been authenticated...and was known to be true at the time. I also have 2 other absolutly authenticated quotes from Hitler saying almost the same exact thing - one from as early as 1931. BTW - evidence of Armenian Genocide - from the Ottoman trials alone - is conclusive...

The sad part is the Armenian side totally rejects the idea that Turks suffered in the war and prior to it, millions were ethnically cleansed from the Caucauses and Balkans, this is only starting to be researched by the West after all these years..

Turks suffered alright - blame the CUP for that too - not the Armenians. Likewise the issues with Turks in the Balkans and even the Caucuses before WWI had little directly to do with the Armenians. However there were massacres of Armenians by Turks during these campaigns as well - and earlier...etc

Now we can carry on arguing here but its just going to get Serdar's thread closed like the countless other threads that have been closed.

If this concerns you then stop posting here on this subject.

[Cellis]

There was once quite an enlightened forum called the Turkish-Armenian Communications Team (TACT) on net54. We had a great core bunch of Turks and Armenians who were trying to work through some issues. We tried to put rhetoric aside and talk at deeper issues then normally occur between Turks and Armenians on this. It worked well for a while but did not maintain - in part because of invasion of highly partisan haters (on both sides). Anyway - among the core group (including the Turks) there was no contention that a genocide did not happen. It was assumed. We were interested in exploring the causation and understanding better each sides perspectives as well as exchanging thoughts and ideas and feelings on things other then the genocide - particualrly concerning our mutual Anatolian heritage. I still keep in touch with some of the folks...in fact was invited to a wedding in Turkey last year but couldn't make it and have been invited boating on the tourquois coast by another. I have real life Turkish friends BTW - several. One family we know is from the same area as we are - a town called Divrig/Divrik...we have even talked of going there together...though more often we talk of going to Bodrum and such...

well, there can be rules like "No extremesm allowed, no insult" etc... it must be 100% objective for both sides. Must be very tight rules. I'm seriously considering about it. Better than idiotic arguments. Arguments will not finish

[Khazar]

1.5Billion
Armenia is not the one who has closed the border BTW

Turkey's not the one who started invading and declaring war on its neighbours, Armenia went into Azerbaijan's Legally accepted Terrotory which it is Illegally occupying today and where the Azeri Turks say Armenian comitted a genocide against them.

When Armenia starts applying to the Law of the world and realising that its not one rule for some and another for others the border will open.

Lewis has never fully researched this issue

If you say so.

more germans died then Jews...yawn

Are you sure? your claiming that over 6 million non-combatent Germans died in WW2 ?

This is incorrect. I could post pages on this but I will just let it stand that this is an incorrect portryal. The Hiterl quote has been authenticated

LOL, its a total lie, a proven fraud, the scholorly Armenians refrain from mentioning it today.

Firstly its a fabrication, secondly it was rejected at the Nurnemburg trials as un-reliable.

BTW - evidence of Armenian Genocide - from the Ottoman trials alone - is conclusive

Another historical invention, the Malta Tribunals found the Ottomans not guilty, its why Britain rejects genocide claims I mean they invented the term and were responsible for the propoganda against their war-time enemy, they know what a load of nonsense it is because they created alot of it.

Turks suffered alright - blame the CUP for that too - not the Armenians

Your sounding like a Nazi apologist.

Oh don't blame the Nazi's for being killed blame your own leaders who caused it all

The ethnic cleansing began before the CUP even existed, the Russian actions in the Caucauses and the horrific exterminsations in the Balkans killed 5 million people and resulted in 6 million refugees influxing into the areas of modern day Turkey.

Armenians massacred Turks why can't you accept this fact, 500-600,000 were killed by your forces.

I mean Armenian was fighting a war, it even declared a peace treaty in 1920, go research the closed chapters of your history.

More and more non-Turk historians are beginning to expose these Armenian lies which they have passed as facts, as time progresses your lobbies will not be able to stop historians looking into the archives and actually researching what happened on their own accord.

Now stop prelonging this, we already have argued about this and it went on for 25 pages and got no-where.

Turks today accept many Armenians died, Armenians however refuse to accept the Turks that they massacred, the ball is in the Armenians court, the Turkish parliment called for the archives to be opened and a joind team to research the events but this was turned down by Armenia.

Today Turkey doesn't need Armenia but Armenia needs Turkey, that's the reality, while you may think today it doesn't matter in 20-30 years it will matter as this region is going to be the energy hub from which the West gets its energy to counter Moscow and the Middle East.

[Khazar]

Getting back to the topic,

UNESCO Censorship on Ottoman Archive Criticized

zaman.com


Historians showed harsh reaction to United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Education, UNESCO, for censoring documents in the exhibition of Ottoman Archives scheduled to be held in France’s capital Paris.

Emphasizing that the attitude of UNESCO does not agree with its real mission or historical realities, the historians supported the ministry’s cancellation of the exhibition.

Terming the events as “a shame”, Turkish Institute of History (TTK) President Professor Yusuf Halacoglu said, “It is nonsense for an organization required to be effective on cultural dialogue and union to strive to ban some documents.”

Reporting that the ones intervening with the exhibition continuously called for freedom of expression and limitation of information, Halacoglu continued: “Turkey acted in good faith to solve the so-Armenian genocide. The cases never refer to science or honesty anymore. There are some letters, which Armenians forwarded to the Ottoman Empire from America and Canada to ask for help. We are face to face with such a big shame.”

Said Ozturk from the Foundation of Ottoman Researches designated the UNESCO’s request for a change on the historical documents as sorrowful. It is of concern to sovereignty, Ozturk warned, “You will accept the exhibition or refuse it.”


Isn't it weird that they call for openess and freedom and when it come's they want to hide the historical sources away, what a jamoke, Historians will take notice of this and realise that there is somthing obviously wrong this this so-called theory if there willing to supress evidence and sources.

[Cato]

Lewis stated that after fully researching the matter that there is no doubt many Armenians were killed but they were not subjected to a planned and systematic genocide perpetrated by the highest Ottoman orders.

Nobody is denying Armenians died that is a fact, the problem is with determing this as a genocide, another problem is totally overlooking the fact that more Turks died in that war in which there was a revolution, a World Empire Crumbled and 20-30 states were created.

The majority of the Armenian claims are nonsense and have no historical credibility, once the surface is scratched the material is more than wobbly.

There are alot of non-Turkish historians who are now beginning to state with facts to back it up that the events cannot be called "genocide".

When the Holocoust Tribunal was carried out do you realise how much evidence there was? there was not a few suspect documents, there was not a few dubious accounts there were literally thousands upon thousands of hard-core evidence.

Infact alot of material was even rejected as it didn't meet the standards for a court of law, for example the Armenian claims of Hitlers phrases about the Armenians, that was rejected by the courts because it was a fabrication and wouldn't stand up in the court of law.

The sad part is the Armenian side totally rejects the idea that Turks suffered in the war and prior to it, millions were ethnically cleansed from the Caucauses and Balkans, this is only starting to be researched by the West after all these years.

Now we can carry on arguing here but its just going to get Serdar's thread closed like the countless other threads that have been closed.

Not in any of his books, and not in his original claim to fame The Emergence of Modern Turkey.

Putting it simply, he will lie to mass media, other westerners, to jews and armenians about it, the reason being high amounts of Turkish Bribes, however he will not lie in his books which he knows is what really counts.

Serder

Everyone knows what happened in the Armenian Genocide, so there shall be no joint investigation of it, since that would mean Armenians would concede it is possible it never happened. I do agree though that some Armenians have used it to slander good Turks like Mustapha Kemal (Who was in exile at the time with no authority to do anything).

1.5 Million

Would you have perferred that Ataturk allow the old CUP elements to determine what Turkey would be to having him hold the tribunals where he rooted them out?

[Theodikritis]

Bernard Lewis for bowing to Islam, rewritting history in Islam's favor, and denying the Armenian Genocide.

[1.5 million]

Turkey's not the one who started invading and declaring war on its neighbours, Armenia went into Azerbaijan's Legally accepted Terrotory which it is Illegally occupying today and where the Azeri Turks say Armenian comitted a genocide against them.

There were massacres and expulsion of Armenians of Baku and Sumgait and Azeri forces were doing the same to Armenians of NK - who BTW had passed a legal referendum under the Soviet System that granted them autonomy. NK has never been the legal territory of the Rep of Azerbaijan. Azerbajain invaded and terrorized the people there. Ultimatly (mid-late 90s) Armenians fought back and kicked the Azeri army out and there has been a cease fire ever since. Facts in Kholaji case are quite convoluted - though interesting how the Azeri president at the time claims that the massacres blamed on the Armenians were in fact done by his political rivals (Alieve & CO) in an effort to depose him - which is what occured. And how can you call the death of a few hundred a genocide? A massacre perhaps. Of course by your definaiton you must show us the documents where Armenians planned to kill all the Azeris - otherwise it was just casualties of war eh? By your own definition of course.

When Armenia starts applying to the Law of the world and realising that its not one rule for some and another for others the border will open.

Of course...always some excuse eh...wearing pretty thin...

Are you sure? your claiming that over 6 million non-combatent Germans died in WW2 ?

I believe that German civilian deaths are estimated at somewhere around 2 million with over 5 million military deaths. BTW of the perhaps 500,000 Ottoman civilian casualties (a figure that includes a great many nationalities - even those - like Arabs - killed by the Turks themselves - but does not include Armenians or Greeks etc) - the percentage that can be attributed to Ottoman Armenians is perhaps nil. Have you read any of Halil Beketay's comments on this issue?

LOL, its a total lie, a proven fraud, the scholorly Armenians refrain from mentioning it today.

Firstly its a fabrication, secondly it was rejected at the Nurnemburg trials as un-reliable.

Untrue. The use the notes from the speech was being entered into evidence was to prove Hitler's premeditation agaiunst Poland. There existed 2 other incmplete versions of the speeches Hitler gave which were obtained by direct capture. The version containing the Hitler quote was passed through Loius Lochner with some question (at the time thought no longer) concerning who took their notes. The issue was that the other two versions had unimpeachable origin and the additional information in the version with the Hitler quote was not neede. So though everyone accepted the version with the Hitler quote - which was more detailed in general - as fully accurate - it was unecessary. The version has been authenticated BTW - plus there are other fully authentic instances where Hitler says extremely similar words and where he makes the same points - for instance in a German newspaper interview in 1931 - “We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place. Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever? We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation. We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy; In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination of the Armenians."
Adolph Hitler - in an interview with Richard Breiting that apeared in the German daily newspaper Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten - 4 May 1931

Another historical invention, the Malta Tribunals found the Ottomans not guilty, its why Britain rejects genocide claims I mean they invented the term and were responsible for the propoganda against their war-time enemy, they know what a load of nonsense it is because they created alot of it.

You claim that Ottoman Military tribunals are a "historical invention" ? lol - and then stick to you fantasy of Malta Tribunals that never occured? Please supply the name of the judge(s) at the Malta tribunal....and who was the prosecuting attorney? Where are the verdicts? etc All of this information exsists for the Ottoman Military Tribunals as well as detailed accounts of testimoney and evidence...etc

Your sounding like a Nazi apologist.

Oh don't blame the Nazi's for being killed blame your own leaders who caused it all

Whatever rediculous and non applicable point could you be attempting to make here?

The ethnic cleansing began before the CUP even existed, the Russian actions in the Caucauses and the horrific exterminsations in the Balkans killed 5 million people and resulted in 6 million refugees influxing into the areas of modern day Turkey.

Your numbers are quite laughable. While it is more accuratly reported that there were approximatly 800,000 Muslim refugees from the Balkans who arrived in Anatolia after the 1912 war - the number actually killed was far far smaller. Additionally these have no direct bearing on the Armenian Genocide...Armenians did not kill any of these people - however during the Balkan wars there are numerous accounts of Turkish soldiers and gendarms massacring Armenians. Need I also remind you of widespread massacres against Armenians in the mid and particualrly late 19 century (hundreds of thousands killed - 1 in 10 Armenians in Anatolia was killed 1894/5...yes thats right...and tens of thousands of more Armenians were slughtered in Adana in 1909 (by the CUP)...and 200,000 Greeks and another 50,000 Armenians were killed along the Agean coast in 1913 - well prior to the war...etc

Armenians massacred Turks why can't you accept this fact, 500-600,000 were killed by your forces.

No I won't accept your entirely unprovable and laughable . This is an impossible figure....don't you realise how utterly stupid making such claims makes you and other Turks who say such things look.

I mean Armenian was fighting a war, it even declared a peace treaty in 1920, go research the closed chapters of your history.

Yes Ataturk's forces invaded Armenia and would have crushed it and its people into nothingness were it not for Soviet intervention. This is a post Genocide event BTW - though Ataturk was responsible for another 400,000 Armenians deaths through massacre and forced starvation (all documented BTW - and to a great extent through Turkish sources...Ataturks own biographer in fact is a source for some of these figures...)

More and more non-Turk historians are beginning to expose these Armenian lies which they have passed as facts, as time progresses your lobbies will not be able to stop historians looking into the archives and actually researching what happened on their own accord.

This has already been done - German archives, American archives - etc. The only "historians" who deny the Armenians Genocide are those with some very specific (largely Turkish sponsored) agendas...in fact the truth is that greater numbers of Turkish historians, scholars and public figures have been publically comming out and affirming the Genocide and the Turkish guilt. And my - when this becomes the mainstream accepted thought over there won't you look really stupid...

Now stop prelonging this, we already have argued about this and it went on for 25 pages and got no-where.

Seems to me you just posted a whole page of - and now you are asking me to stop...ha

Turks today accept many Armenians died, Armenians however refuse to accept the Turks that they massacred, the ball is in the Armenians court, the Turkish parliment called for the archives to be opened and a joind team to research the events but this was turned down by Armenia.

Get your facts straight. First of all Armenian state archives have always been open and this has been proven. Secondly - there was no Armenian state in 1915...third - Turkish archives have been heavily doctored and much is known to be missing - in fact Talaat himself and others destroyed a great deal of the incriminating evidence in 1918...this has been documented by very reliable Turkish sources. Anyway quite enough is already known and proven. It just seems to me that Turks like you either can't read or can't comprhend what they read...so what good would a highly biased highly political gathering of government selected historians do anyone. Have you read Berktay's comment on this?

Today Turkey doesn't need Armenia but Armenia needs Turkey, that's the reality, while you may think today it doesn't matter in 20-30 years it will matter as this region is going to be the energy hub from which the West gets its energy to counter Moscow and the Middle East.

Again you are essentially making a threat - give in to our way or you will suffer...how typical.

[1.5 million]

Would you have perferred that Ataturk allow the old CUP elements to determine what Turkey would be to having him hold the tribunals where he rooted them out?

Not sure what you are getting at here. First - it is not a question of my preferences - but reporting what occured. Ataturk - while no fan of the CUP (in fact they were rivals) both used a great many CUP concpets (perhaps more correctly the thinking came from similar ideological beginnings) and secondly - in establishing the Republic he largely relied on CUP party network and funds and manpower - because he knew they did not wnat the (old Sultan loyalist) Ottoman's back in power because the Ottomans were bitter over being usurped by the CUP, dragged into war, bankrupted, ruined and they were wanted for carrying out the Armenian Genocide (and the Ottomans were happy to try and convict CUP to show that it was CUP and not traditional Ottoman elite who masterminded and carried out the Genocide. After the Republic was established Ataturk began firmly establishing his autocracy. He saw the CUP remnants as current, potential future, and past political rivals and he also realised that they were no longer needed - and in fact - as many were really very deplorable people he just didn't want them around. So he used a suposed plot against his person as an excuse for a rather large and significant purge...many were executed. There is quite a bit of documentation of these events as well as accounts tying these CUP types back to crimes against the Armenians. Additionally Ataturk even went after some of his most trusted advisors and luitenents of old - such as Karabakir - who opposed his moves towards essential dictatorship and one party rule. Later Ataturk created his own opposition party - even devided its platform and chose its members...lol...but he was a great man. SO what was your question/concern?

[Cellis]

ohhh people give a fvcking break

[Elin]

you started it, serdar..

Serdar

Glad you came to your senses and recognized the Armenian Genocide.

recognized as "genocide"?