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Thread: In Touch with Reality

  1. #1
    Thaer K. Hamed
    Guest

    In Touch with Reality

    Dichter: Ceding Golan legitimate price for a true peace with Syria
    By Haaretz Service

    Public Security Minister Avi Dichter of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Kadima party said Monday that in return for a genuine peace with Syria, it would be legitimate for Israel to cede the Golan Heights.

    Also Monday morning, Vice Premier Shimon Peres sent a contradictory message, saying the time is not right for Israel to engage in talks with Syria.

    Asked if in exchange for a genuine peace with Damascus, he would be willing to return the Golan Heights, captured from Syria in the 1967 Six Day War, Dichter told Army Radio:
    "In return for a true peace with Syria or with Lebanon, over those issues that from the standpoint of the land have a history, which we know and the Syrians know and the Lebanese know, I think that what we did with Egypt and with Jordan is legitimate here as well."

    Dichter said that meant a return to the internationally recognized border.

    The terms of Israel's 1979 peace treaty with Egypt were a full normalization of relations in exchange for return of all of the Sinai peninsula, taken in the 1967 war. Jordan also restored full relations with Israel, in a 1994 treaty that included some return of territory but did not include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the rights to which Jordan had formally relinquished to the Palestinins.

    Dichter added that holding talks with Syria is legitimate, if a viable party exists on the other side talks should take place. Such negotiations "could be initiated via a third-party," he said.

    Alluding to the breakdown of the peace process with the Palestinians, Dichter said that past failures of the land-for-peace strategy should not rule out such a principle in the future.

  2. #2
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Ditcher should be shot.

  3. #3
    Eil
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    Ditcher should be shot.

    because he's asking for peace?
    isn't peace what we all looking for from generations ago?!

  4. #4
    ssrt
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Eil
    because he's asking for peace?
    isn't peace what we all looking for from generations ago?!
    Look where that got us.

    I will leave you with this:

    "There never was a greater event - and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," he then said. "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is traveling - it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star..." - Madman, The Gay Science by Friedrich Nietzsche

    Now is not the time to negotiate peace. I hope that one day Jews and Arabs will be able to leave peacefully in the Middle East, but that time is not now. The vast majority of the Arab world is not ready to negotiate, and Israel should not threaten her security by chasing after them and begging for peace.

    Peace may or may not come, but certain conditions need to be met first.

  5. #5
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Eil
    because he's asking for peace?
    isn't peace what we all looking for from generations ago?!
    Peace is fine. Giving away land isn't. In fact, it is treason, and should be dealt with as such.

  6. #6
    Jayhawker Soule
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    Peace is fine. Giving away land isn't. In fact, it is treason, ...
    But, under the right circumstances, returning captured land is not. While I do not believe that current circumstances warrant such an offer, I also don't believe that vitriolic and bombastic jingoism makes much sense either.

  7. #7
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
    But, under the right circumstances, returning captured land is not. While I do not believe that current circumstances warrant such an offer, I also don't believe that vitriolic and bombastic jingoism makes much sense either.
    Under no circumstances should any of our native land be given away. Government officials who propose such are traitors, and ought to be dealt with as such. Either by legal means, or if not, like with Rabin.

  8. #8
    ssrt
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    Under no circumstances should any of our native land be given away. Government officials who propose such are traitors, and ought to be dealt with as such. Either by legal means, or if not, like with Rabin.
    And what, if I may ask, is the reasoning behind that?

  9. #9
    Jayhawker Soule
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    Under no circumstances should any of our native land be given away
    And on what grounds do you maintain that the Golan Heights are "native land"?

  10. #10
    Jayhawker Soule
    Guest
    From Wikipedia:

    Ancient history

    The area has been occupied by many civilizations. During the 3rd millennium BC the Amorites dominated and inhabited the Golan until the 2nd millennium, when the Arameans took over. Later known as Bashan, the area was contested between Kingdom of Israel (the northern of the two Jewish kingdoms existent at that time) and the Aramean kingdom from the 800s BC. King Ahab of Israel (reigned 874–852 BC) defeated Ben-Hadad I in the southern Golan.

    In the 700s BC the Assyrians gained control of the area, but were later replaced by the Babylonian and the Persian Empire. In the 5th century BC, the region was settled by returning Jewish exiles from Babylonian Captivity (modern Iraq).

    The Golan Heights, along with the rest of the region, came under the control of Alexander the Great in 332 BC, following the Battle of Issus. Following Alexander's death, the Golan came under the domination of the Macedonian noble Seleucus and remained part of the Seleucid Empire for most of the next two centuries. It is during this period that the name Golan, previously that of a city mentioned in Deuteronomy, came to be applied to the entire region (Greek: Gaulanitis).

    The Maccabean Revolt saw much action in the regions around the Golan and it is possible that the Jewish communities of the Golan were among those rescued by Judah Maccabee during his campaign in the Galilee and Gilead (Transjordan) mentioned in Chapter 5 of 1 Maccabees. The Golan, however, remained in Seleucid hands until the campaign of Alexander Jannaeus from 83-80 BC. Jannaeus established the city of Gamla in 81 BC as his capital for the region.

    Following the death of Herod the Great in 4 BC, Augustus Caesar adjudicated that the Golan fell within the Tetrarchy of Herod's son, Herod Philip. After Philip's death in 34 AD, the Romans absorbed the Golan into the province of Syria, but Caligula restored the territory to Herod's grandson Agrippa in 37. Following Agrippa's death in 44, the Romans again annexed the Golan to Syria, promptly to return it again when Claudius traded the Golan to Agrippa II, the son of Agrippa I, in 51 as part of a land swap.

    Although nominally under Agrippa's control and not part of the province of Judea, the Jewish communities of the Golan joined their coreligionists in the First Jewish-Roman War, only to fall to the Roman armies in its eary stages. Gamla was captured in 67; according to Josephus, its inhabitants committed mass suicide, preferring it to crucifixion and slavery. Agrippa II contributed soldiers to the Roman war effort and attempted to negotiate an end to the revolt. In return for his loyalty, Rome allowed him to retain his kingdom, but finally absorbed the Golan for good after his death in 100.

    In about 250, the Ghassanids established a kingdom which encompassed southern Syria and the Transjordan, building their capital at Jabiyah on the Golan. Like the later Herodians, the Ghassanids ruled as clients of Rome; unlike the Herodians, the Ghassanids were able to hold on to the Golan until the Sassanid invasion of 614. Following a brief restoration under the Emperor Heraclius, the Golan again fell, this time to the invading Arabs after the Battle of Yarmouk in 636.

    After Yarmouk, Muawiyah I, a member of Muhammad's tribe, the Quraish, was appointed governor of Syria, including the Golan. Following the assasination of his cousin, the Caliph Uthman, Muawiya claimed the Caliphate for himself, initiating the Umayyad dynasty. Over the next few centuries, while remaining in Muslim hands, the Golan passed through many dynastic changes, falling first to the Abbasids, then to the Shi'ite Fatimids, then to the Seljuk Turks, then to the Kurdish Ayyubids. During the Crusades, the Heights represented a formidable obstacle the Crusader armies were not able to conquer. The Mongols swept through in 1259, but were driven off by the Mamluk sultan Qutuz at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260. Ain Jalut ensured Mamluk dominance of the region for the next 250 years.

    In the 15th and 16th centuries, Druze began to settle the northern Golan and the slopes of Mount Hermon. In the 16th century, the Ottoman Turks came in control of the area and remained so until the end of World War I.

    In 1894, a Jewish community called Ramataniya was founded by Baron Edmond James de Rothschild, a French Jew and early Zionist; however, the community failed within a year.

    Between World War I and the Six-Day War

    The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms by the Franco-British Boundary Agreement of December 1920. The demarcation was completed March 7, 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities.[10] This placed most of the Golan in the French sphere. In accordance with the same process, a nearby parcel of land that included the ancient site of Dan was transferred from Syria to Palestine early in 1924. The Golan Heights thus became part of the French Mandate of Syria and, when that mandate ended in 1944, part of the new independent state of Syria. They remained under Syrian control until 1967.

    After the 1948-49 Arab-Israeli War,the Golan Heights were partly demilitarized by the Israel-Syria Armistice Agreement. Over the following years the Mixed Armistice Commission (which oversaw the implementation of the Israel-Syria Armistice Agreement) reported many violations by each side. The Syrians fortified positions on the Heights, from which they shelled civilian targets in Israel and launched other attacks for the next 18 years. Before the Six-Day War the strategic heights of the Golan, which are approximately 3,000 feet (1,000 m) above pre-1967 Israel, were used to frequently bombard civilian Israeli farming communities far below them, although Moshe Dayan (Israeli Defense Minister during the 1967 war) would later state that it was most often the result of Israeli provocations in the demilitarized zone. According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, former Israeli General Matityahu Peled claimed that more than half of the border clashes before the 1967 war "were a result of our security policy of maximum settlement in the demilitarized area".

    140 Israelis were killed and many more were injured in these attacks from 1949 to 1967.

    During the Six-Day War of 1967 Syria's shelling greatly intensified and the Israeli army captured the Golan Heights on 9-10 June. The area which came under Israeli control as a result of the war is two geologically distinct areas: the Golan Heights proper (413 sq mi; 1,070 km²) and the slopes of the Mt. Hermon range (39 sq mi; 100 km²).
    Israel has no unique or compelling claim to the Golan as part of its "native lands".

  11. #11
    Roland
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
    And on what grounds do you maintain that the Golan Heights are "native land"?
    Well,
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle
    Ditcher should be shot.
    .
    Giving away land isn't. In fact, it is treason, and should be dealt with as such.
    .
    Either by legal means, or if not, like with Rabin.
    by KettleWhistle's own grounds, of course.
    "Legal means" do not matter much - (What is "treason", then?).
    Invade, shoot, annex, label "native land", done.
    A strategy with known historic examples.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I suppose we should give credence to anyone with the will and the weapons to snatch anything they want under the aegis of "Well I guess they have a much better reason than we do." If people are going to fall over themselves making apologies for "This really isn't OUR ancestral homeland....." Then doesn't that silly line of reasoning work equally well for everyone else too? Maybe we should ask these guys

  13. #13
    Thaer K. Hamed
    Guest
    Yes, I think its a good idea if we all try to track down where our ancestors might have lived 2 000 years ago and tell the people there - 'f. off, this is my native land'.

  14. #14
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ssrt
    And what, if I may ask, is the reasoning behind that?
    Patriotism.

  15. #15
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
    And on what grounds do you maintain that the Golan Heights are "native land"?
    It is a part of the the Land of Israel. Also, it is a part of the Israeli sovereign.

    More here: http://gamla.org.il/english/index.htm

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