Just have a question.

[Ariaku]

I was talking with some acquaintances about the Jewish faith and the bible and the state of Israel and all that jazz.

I know the Orthodox Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, and their still waiting on the messiah to come.

So, how do they explain the state of Israel being in existance? According to what I know the gathering of Jews to reastablish Israel was supposed to happen after the messiah came.

Just curious how all that is explained.

[Aviva]

So, how do they explain the state of Israel being in existance? According to what I know the gathering of Jews to reastablish Israel was supposed to happen after the messiah came.

Christians believe this but Jews don't need the Messiah to have come to live in the land of Israel again, (a small minority of Orthodox Jews, like the nutty Naturei Karta sect will disagree with this, though). Generally speaking there have always been small numbers of Jews living in the land of Israel during the Exile.

Having said that, Orthodox Jews believe that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple on the Temple mount when he comes and many Lubavitch Jews believe that the Messiah has already come in the form of Rabbi Schneerson (z'l), anyway.

[Womble]

I was talking with some acquaintances about the Jewish faith and the bible and the state of Israel and all that jazz.

I know the Orthodox Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, and their still waiting on the messiah to come.

So, how do they explain the state of Israel being in existance? According to what I know the gathering of Jews to reastablish Israel was supposed to happen after the messiah came.

Just curious how all that is explained.

1)If the gathering of Jews to reestablish Israel was supposed to happen after the Messiah came, Jesus wouldn't have fit the bill in the first place. When he was around, there was no exile yet and nowhere to gather the Jews from.

2)The gathering of Jews to reestablish Israel was supposed to happen not AFTER the coming of the Messiah, but around the same time as the coming of the Messiah. In fact, it is supposed to be the Messiah's job to complete this task, although it can start before that.

3)Even if we assume that the reestablishment of Israel can only be done after the coming of the Messiah, it does not follow that Jesus is the Messiah.

[Ariaku]

Correct me I'm wrong on any of this. The muslims believe that their "Imam, and that's just some kind of special leader?" along with Jesus is going to destroy Israel?

Also they think that satan is responsible for the existance of Israel now and that's why their imam and jesus are going to destroy it?

[Aviva]

Correct me I'm wrong on any of this. The muslims believe that their "Imam, and that's just some kind of special leader?" along with Jesus is going to destroy Israel?

Also they think that satan is responsible for the existance of Israel now and that's why their imam and jesus are going to destroy it?

Where did you hear that? I don't think that's mainstream Islamic belief.

[Ariaku]

There are a couple of shia muslims that I've talked to just online, and that's their view.

That's the reason for the questions,, I'm just curious about some beliefs, or the why behind some of the beliefs.

[Aviva]

There are a couple of shia muslims that I've talked to just online, and that's their view.

That's the reason for the questions,, I'm just curious about some beliefs, or the why behind some of the beliefs.

I guess you have to distinquish between mainstream belief and the ideas of individual people. What you mentioned above sounds rather suspect to me.

[Ariaku]

I didn't really mean to get on to the Muslim aspect of it. Actually my family just found out that we were of Jewish descent in the last couple of years on my mom's side. Evidently when they came from Europe to the US they hid the fact they were Jewish and became I think Presbyterian. That's not what I am.

Growing up I was taught the old and new testament. I've pretty much always known that the Orthodox Jews didn't accept Christ as their messiah. I've just never known the reasons why, or what they actually say about Christ. Or what they actually teach as far as a timeline so to speak. I know they have the torah, but what is that actually? Is that just the old testament?

Also, I've wondered this for a while. Since the Jews don't accept Christ as the messiah, why don't they make burnt sacrifices for sins? Or do they?

Just asking thoughts, and I didn't mean to imply that every muslim believed the way those 2 I spoke to do. That's just what I was told. I've never studied the muslim religion. Just that I've heard different things. I believe they think Mohammed was more special than Christ. I've also heard that the Arabs think that Islam is "Abraham's religion", and that they omit Issac from their history. And that Mohammed basically *and all of Islam for that matter* think that they are true spiritual heirs of Abraham. So, the "promised land" which is Israel, according to the muslims belongs to them, thus you have the never ending fight over Israel.

But that's just info I've been told, I've never done an indepth study.

[scattergood]

I didn't really mean to get on to the Muslim aspect of it. Actually my family just found out that we were of Jewish descent in the last couple of years on my mom's side. Evidently when they came from Europe to the US they hid the fact they were Jewish and became I think Presbyterian. That's not what I am.

Growing up I was taught the old and new testament. I've pretty much always known that the Orthodox Jews didn't accept Christ as their messiah. I've just never known the reasons why, or what they actually say about Christ. Or what they actually teach as far as a timeline so to speak. I know they have the torah, but what is that actually? Is that just the old testament?

Also, I've wondered this for a while. Since the Jews don't accept Christ as the messiah, why don't they make burnt sacrifices for sins? Or do they?

Just asking thoughts, and I didn't mean to imply that every muslim believed the way those 2 I spoke to do. That's just what I was told. I've never studied the muslim religion. Just that I've heard different things. I believe they think Mohammed was more special than Christ. I've also heard that the Arabs think that Islam is "Abraham's religion", and that they omit Issac from their history. And that Mohammed basically *and all of Islam for that matter* think that they are true spiritual heirs of Abraham. So, the "promised land" which is Israel, according to the muslims belongs to them, thus you have the never ending fight over Israel.

But that's just info I've been told, I've never done an indepth study.

Ariaku, you ask some really good questions and I'll try to take a quick stab at them:

I've pretty much always known that the Orthodox Jews didn't accept Christ as their messiah. I've just never known the reasons why, or what they actually say about Christ.

The Jewish rejection of Jesus basically revolves around one basic issue: Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies of what the Messiah would do. Now from that idea it gets a lot more complex. For example the Messiah was to usher in an era of peace and safety for the Jewish people, that didn't happen. The Messiah was to be a man, not G-d incarnate as Jesus hinted at and his followers state explicitly. For a very good read on the subject I suggest a book called Why the Jews Rejected Jesus by David Klinghoffer (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Jews-Rejec...e=UTF8&s=books)

I know they have the torah, but what is that actually? Is that just the old testament?

In terms of the texts that make up the 'old testament' the Jews refer to something called a Tanakh, which is an abbreviation forthe basic order of the book by its subparts: Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim. The Torah is the first 5 books and are known as the 5 Books of Moses are are considered to have been given directly to Moses from G-d. They are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Dueteronomy. The Neviim are the writings of the Prohpets and include Isaiah, Joshua, Ezekial and lesser known prophets like Obadiah, Jonah, Micah. The Ketivim are known as the Writings and are poetic writings like Psalms or Proverbs, or stories like Ruth, Esther, and Ecclesiastes. These are understood to be the later additions to the Tanakh.

These books that make up the 'old testament' are in a very different order than in a Christian Old Testament. The first 5 books are ordered the same way, but the end of the Christian Old Testament has been re-worked to end on a mention or prophesy of the Messiah as a lead in to the New Testament.

Since the Jews don't accept Christ as the messiah, why don't they make burnt sacrifices for sins? Or do they?

Jews no longer perform sacrifices because according to the Law as described in the Torah, there needs to be a Temple to perform them in. Since the 2nd Temple was destoryed by the Romans, Jews no longer perform sacrifices.

[Aviva]

I've pretty much always known that the Orthodox Jews didn't accept Christ as their messiah.

No Jews would, whether they were Orthodox or Progressive. The only people who accept Jesus as their Saviour are Christians. Muslims say Jesus was a Prophet. Jews say he was just a teacher who's views (as reported in the Gospels) try to present a very different theology to Judaism.

However, Jesus was a Jew from a Jewish background. The word "Messiah" comes from the Hebrew word for "Saviour". The Jews have been waiting for a Saviour and have a very clear definition of who this person will be. Jesus actually doesn't fit the criteria and that's why Jews don't accept him. In Jewish history there have been several other men who have claimed to be the Messiah over the last two thousand years.

Or what they actually teach as far as a timeline so to speak.

I'm not sure what you mean. Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud. A lot happened in Jewish history when Christianity was beginning because the Temple was destroyed around the same time.

I know they have the torah, but what is that actually? Is that just the old testament?

It's the first five books of the Old Testament. The Torah was given to Moses from heaven at Mount Sinai. There's also the Oral Torah, which was also given then and later got written down and forms the Mishna. The commentaries on the Mishnah are the Talmud.

Also, I've wondered this for a while. Since the Jews don't accept Christ as the messiah, why don't they make burnt sacrifices for sins? Or do they?

When the Temple was destroyed, prayers became the new offerings. These are done three times a day like sacrifices were.

[Ariaku]

No Jews would, whether they were Orthodox or Progressive.

If a Jew believes in Jesus they stop being a Jew? I'd have a hard time believing that.

[Aviva]

If a Jew believes in Jesus they stop being a Jew? I'd have a hard time believing that.

A Jew is defined as a person who is born of a Jewish mother. If a Jew then believes in Jesus, then you're right - that person doesn't stop being a Jew.

But by worshipping another god they become an idolator.

[Ariaku]

But by worshipping another god they become an idolator.

I don't think that Christians and Judiasm believe in 2 separate Gods. As far as I understand it even Muslims are trying to please the same God.

All three religions are trying to get in good grace with the God of Abraham. They certainly can't all three be right. There's just too great a difference.

But to call one, even muslims, idolators doesn't seem to fit. An idol is something other than God. Like a golden calf, or anything that takes the place of God as I understand it.

Two of the three obviously are misguided. Which two of the three? I'm sure that each will say the other two.

[Aviva]

I don't think that Christians and Judiasm believe in 2 separate Gods.

I do.

In Christianity there are several deities, even though Christians explain it by them all being facets of the one G-d. Christians especially Catholics use idols ie: images of Jesus, Mary and the saints.

Idol worship is the worst sin possible for a Jew, (along with murder and incest).

As far as I understand it even Muslims are trying to please the same God.

I would agree that Islam is more similar to Judaism but Muslims believe Mohammed to be infallible. There's no infallible human beings in Judaism.

[frizzer1]

I don't think that Christians and Judiasm believe in 2 separate Gods. As far as I understand it even Muslims are trying to please the same God.

We do believe in different gods.Christians believe in jesus as god.
We don't.

They certainly can't all three be right. There's just too great a difference.

best guess? All 3 are wrong.
But we are the closest to the truth