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No... since it merely means everyone in the way of Israel's EXISTENCE. But you knew that, you are just being snide to show everyone how smart you think you are.Originally Posted by Soummoud
The difference is, you don't believe in national coexistence at all. That makes you the barrier.
Well there is a nother aspect to your nuttiness,
"There is no giving up on Israel as the Jewish state. If that means war, and having to kill everyone in the way, then so be it" - MGB8
As the Palestinian population of Israel continues to grow, eventually becoming a majority, will "kill everyone in the way" apply to them too?
No. There is increasing alliya. There are government programs, such as the one in France, to increase fertility among certain groups. A more or less permanent Jewish majority in Israel can be accomplished without any killing.
Oh, also an application of a loyalty oath (to the Jewish state), and expulsion of those not willing to be loyal to the idea (and no, that doesn't mean not having children, merely not acting in a hostile manner towards the state), also would help.
But right now we are at what, 77% Jew, 18% Muslim, 5% Christian, or something along that line? There's some time, although sure, measure should be taken now to help increase Jewish population naturally.
Note - you still haven't responded to the issue of human nature and treatment of minorities, to the centuries of discrimination, domination and death that Jews endured under Muslim and Christian rule, to the current treatment of minorities in Muslim nations, or to the idea that the Muslim world can try your post nationalist principles first, and if they work, then Israel will follow.
Hmmm... why is that?
No. He says that Israel is ready to kill terrorists and Muslim nationals who are waging a war against Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.
If the Islamists would ever stop their terrorism against Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc., there would be an immediate end to the bloodshed.
As a practical matter, this is not Israel's policy and apparently the IDF does not have the military capability to defend its citizens against the Islamists anyway.
As for Israel being a Jewish state under international law and the need for the Palestinians to have a one-state solution with Jordan, I didn't see a response from you on those points.
I think that you know very well that we consider ducking issues repeatedly and making circular arguments as trolling the board. It didn't work for so last time, and this time we will be quicker to react.
"All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon
Well, there are Arab states (many of them) and now there's a Jewish state. And there are nuthouses too, and that's where you belong.Soummoud: Well there is a nother aspect to your nuttiness,
"There is no giving up on Israel as the Jewish state. If that means war, and having to kill everyone in the way, then so be it" - MGB8
IMJ
Not genetic. Ethnic. Jewish land for Jewish people (only). We have ours, all others have theirs.
Their problems, not ours.Because the only other way it can end is if the jews or Palestinians give up on their dream. A two state solotoution will never work since the palestinian country would be restricited from doing certains things by isreal (military is one).
So it is a mix of being jewish and beleiving in judaism.Neither. Jews are the Israelites - a tribe, a nation. The religion is a necessary component of being in the tribe, but its secondary. We are the decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who have a covenant with G-d regarding various things.
Someone can convert and join our tribe, and people can convert out and disassociate from the tribe, but in the end, it is just that.
You seem to think of Arabs as one people. The clear fact that Pan-Arabism failed should be evidence. I remember the first time i came here. Some idiot was giving weak evidence that Palestinians should move to Jordan. One was that the flags were similar (the guy forgot that Jordanian and the Palestinian flags are based on the flag of the Arab Revolt). The other was that alot of Palestinians lived in Amman. Well there not. There are to culturly diffrent. They couldn't even trust each other when they were fighting Israel in 48.There is no giving up on Israel as the Jewish state. If that means war, and having to kill everyone in the way, then so be it. The Palestinians can have their own state - heck, they already have Jordan. The Arabs can have so many states... muslims more. But the Jewish nation isn't allowed one, on its historic homeland? Hypocrisy.
Hey no one is denying that. Watching people agree with Borats antisemtiism is sobering. But i think the palestinians are the bigger victims in this conflict.But, bottom line, Jews have been maybe the worst victims of this natural human condition throughout history.
Wouldn't there be a constant danger that the arabs would shoot their fellow jewish soldiers in the back. Or in a war they could revolt or become spies?ghts in all things accept for one (the Army), which is an adjustment to reality, and in many ways is a benefit.
I guess we could have the Arabs in the Army and force them to kill terrorists or be shot for desertion or jailed for refusing orders... maybe that's a better plan.
Gunning for a purely jewish state is just a battle waiting to happen. Jews are assimiliting in Europe and America. Immigration to Israel isn't as high as it used to be since Russia is stable and more prosporus. Some jews don't want to go at all (e.g.Iranian Jews). USA which as the biggest population of jews isn't contrabuting much in immigration. Only 21,000 immigrated to Israel. Brining the Ethopians isn't going to help much since they will be a burden at first.
Jewish Majority dropping
In the end the Arabs will become a sizeable portion of the population. If they became 50% they could win elections.
It's to have a home.
It's really very very simple. Suppose you have a brother, whom you love dearly. Would you prefer living in the same room with him all your life rather than to have a place of your own?
Of course you wouldn't. Like any normal human being, you would want a place of your own. You would gladly come to visit your brother and maybe even live with him occasionally for some time, but in the end, you would want privacy and a place where the walls are of the color YOU have chosen and the furniture stands where YOU want it.
It is the same with nations. The Jews and the Palestinian Arabs are two distinct people, eah of whom wants to govern themselves the way THEY wish.
The Jewish people for 2000 years were denied a place they could call home. They were forcefully dispersed around the world and treated as strangers everywhere. Even in those places where they were treated well they were still dependent on the good will of their hosts- the good will that could, and often did, disappear overnight. They basically lived in "rented flats", from which the landlord could evict them at any moment. Now they want their own house, a place where the Jews are not tolerated guests, but the landlords.
The Palestinians, I reckon, want the same thing- to govern themselves. Whether or not they were a nation back when the conflict began, today they are, they've been fused together into a nation by the historical process- and they want self-rule just like every other nation does. People who make it out as if the Palestinians only want social equality and the personal rights of the "refugees" are either too naive or lying.
Here's a simple thought experiment. Suppose a one joint Arab-Jewish state is created tomorrow. Suppose all Palestinians and all Jews from all over the world are gathered in it, and the Palestinians find themselves a minority again, just like the Israeli Arabs are in the present day Israel (14.5 million Jews vs. 9 million Palestinians). As a result, of course, this one state remains Jewish-governed. Would this result satisfy the Palestinians or the pro-Palestinian one-state-solution crowd?
Of course not. The Arabs would still remain a minority. The one-state-solution propaganda implicitly contains another demand- that the resulting state must have an Arab majority. They want one ARAB state. The one-state demand is not a demand for political or social justice, it is a demand to deprive the Jews of souvereignity.
Not true, unless the Palestinian dream is for a takeover of Israel, or for anything other than just a state of their own, then yes, you're right. If they want a state of their own on ALL the territory that used to be Palestine under the British mandate, they'll sure as hell have to give up on that one. But if self-rule was more important to them than obsessing about supposed loss of real estate here and there, it could work quite fine. Once each nation has its own home where they can fulfill their political aspirations and govern themselves, they would have had much less of a problem being minorities elsewhere. Just like it became much easier for the Jews to live as minorities in other countries once Israel was created (any Jew who feels uncomfortable as a minority member can now opt to move to Israel), it would be easier for the Palestinians to live as minorities elsewhere, including in Israel.Because the only other way it can end is if the jews or Palestinians give up on their dream.
Only if they keep trying to destroy Israel. If they minded their own Palestinian state's business, why would anyone bother restricting them?A two state solotoution will never work since the palestinian country would be restricited from doing certains things by isreal (military is one).
“This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.â€
Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader
Why would any nation be tied to a certain religion or ethnicity? Answers please!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group
Most countries have a dominant religion, or haven't you noticed?Justcurious: Why would any nation be tied to a certain religion or ethnicity? Answers please!
IMJ
All nations were formed on the basis of the dominant ethnicity and culture. If some of them are practicing multiculturalism today, it is only because the title ethnicity's position of dominance is so solidly cemented that they can afford giving up some of it. Wherever a minority comes within realistic distance of a "demographic revolution" and taking the state over, violent tensions immediately flare up.
Binational states, with few rare exceptions, tend to fail catastrophically. They either collapse into a civil war or fall apart along the ethnic or religious lines peacefully. Examples- Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, India-Pakistan-Bangladesh, former Soviet Union, etc.). Very few working binational states exist (Switzerland, Belgium), and even within those there are often strong separatist tendencies (the Flemish-Vallon divide in Belgium).
“This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.â€
Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader
There are four consociational states: Belgium, Switzerland, India, and the Netherlands, and they all have a dominant religion.Womble: Binational states, with few rare exceptions, tend to fail catastrophically. They either collapse into a civil war or fall apart along the ethnic or religious lines peacefully. Examples- Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, India-Pakistan-Bangladesh, former Soviet Union, etc.). Very few working binational states exist (Switzerland, Belgium), and even within those there are often strong separatist tendencies (the Flemish-Vallon divide in Belgium).
IMJ
Quite right. There is a tendancy among Jihadi-thinking militants and Arab nationalists to believe that the Jews are too soft to really fight. And they have things to support this - the withdrawal from Lebanon conducted the way it does, the Israeli "peace movement" which self flagelates for even the tiniest act of self defense that in any way inconveniences Pal Arabs, the deference paid to the US, or the endless handwrining of Jews at home and abroad about Israeli actions.
They tend to believe that they can talk the Jews, or guilt the Jews, into the destruction of Israel.
No.
I want to make the following clear to Sumud and those who think like Sumud does. To the people who hide their agenda of the domination of Jews under "one-state" talk or theoretical utopian principles or false narrative, or those who just come out with it.
Now, this doesn't mean kill anyone and everything. It means kill those who try to kill us or force us into submission. Stop attacking, and there will be peace from Israel's side, as there always has been when Arab groups have been ready to accept Israel's existence in peace.There are many, many Jews, likely the large majority of Israelis, who are not only convinced of the justness of Israel's exitence, of the need for the Jewish state - but are so convinced that they will not only die, but kill to defend its existence.
What's so vile is that Sumud accused me of being an obstacle to co-existence when it is he that opposes Israel's existence. In short, he definse the only possible co-existence as the destruction of Israel. He also assumes that there will be an Arab majority within Israel proper, although the Arab-Muslim growth rate has declined and is approaching Jewish levels (and the Orthodox are still at the top).
Your goal is not going to be achieved, Sumud. Israel will continue to exist as the (Zionist) Jewish State. We will do whatever is necessary to make sure of that. Maybe you will come to abandon that goal and seek peaceful coexistence. Maybe you will continue to pursue your imperialist agenda. No matter. You know what you are up against. You will not win.
Of course, Sumud hasn't bothered to come and answer the many questions that were asked of him...
Actually, I don't know what all the discussion's about. Jordan is the Arab portion of Palestine. There is no need for a Palestinian state to be created within Israel. It's already small enough.
IMJ
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