An old mans thought on Islam.

[rexgrant]

Hi all.
It really is time that the moderate muslims in the world,sorted out their leaders and extreamist,The rest of the world has just about had enough of your extreme ways.cold blooded murder in the name of Allah/Iam/God.If this supreme being who see's all then I am sure he will not look kindly on a suicide bomber killing innocent people,whatever race or creed they are in his name. Your extreme friends may call you a marter in this life but you will certainly spend the next in Hell.
There is no excuse for taking life for religion no matter what the charge,and as for the Arab-Israeli conflick, the Jewish people have both Legal as well as moral right to live in the holyland in peace with the Arabs as neighbours, whether you have two states or you live together in one, it has to be decided between yourselves!!
You must realise you cannot convert the modern world to Islam,But if you persist in your murdering ways,you will bring the rest of the world down on your race,and this will be because of a few extremist muslims, who think that they can convert people to Islam by force, as they did in the old days.
Regards
Rex

[farmall]

This forum is not a place to address Muslims, they merely lurk here for intel.
The solution is to agitate against Islam, against the pollution of the UK by immigrations, and for the non-Muslim identity of your nation, which cannot include Islam because it is a social cancer.

[rexgrant]

This forum is not a place to address Muslims, they merely lurk here for intel.
The solution is to agitate against Islam, against the pollution of the UK by immigrations, and for the non-Muslim identity of your nation, which cannot include Islam because it is a social cancer.

Hi Farmall.
I am a little unsure what you mean by this forum is not the place to address muslims,
The title of the forum is to debate the Arab / Israili conflick.and to say what we beleve is the cause of the problem,If a Muslim is a member of this forum he or she as has much right to debate or answer critisisum of themself or their faith as you or I.,
As for the Problem with a few muslims in the uk,we are getting help from the non vilont muslims,By working together with the British muslims we are sorting the problem out. do not beleve all you read in the media.
If only the Muslims of the middle east would do the same,it could lead to peace in the middle east.
Regards Farmall.
Rex

[AhmedH]

Hi all.
It really is time that the moderate muslims in the world,sorted out their leaders and extreamist,The rest of the world has just about had enough of your extreme ways.cold blooded murder in the name of Allah/Iam/God.If this supreme being who see's all then I am sure he will not look kindly on a suicide bomber killing innocent people,whatever race or creed they are in his name. Your extreme friends may call you a marter in this life but you will certainly spend the next in Hell.
There is no excuse for taking life for religion no matter what the charge,and as for the Arab-Israeli conflick, the Jewish people have both Legal as well as moral right to live in the holyland in peace with the Arabs as neighbours, whether you have two states or you live together in one, it has to be decided between yourselves!!
You must realise you cannot convert the modern world to Islam,But if you persist in your murdering ways,you will bring the rest of the world down on your race,and this will be because of a few extremist muslims, who think that they can convert people to Islam by force, as they did in the old days.
Regards
Rex

Dear Rex, the utterly misconception about Islam which non-muslim scholars loves to talk in their debates is that the Islam spread by the sword. You got the same view about Islam. Here's some facts for you to correct your concepts before talking about Islam.

You talk about suicide bombings, plz. go thru the facts which creates a suicide bomber, you will get the answer. And you are surely not the one who can decide that someone will go in heaven or hell, right ?

Can you tell me a single moral or legal right for zionists which makes them legal to capture someones land ?

Modern world is converting to Islam very faster, and whoever ponders to differenciate between truth and lie, will convert to Islam for sure. Now read the below lines and u will get clear about the peaceful spread of Islam. Have a nice day.

WAS ISLAM SPREAD BY THE SWORD?


Question:

How can Islam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?

Answer:

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth, reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.


1. Islam means peace.

Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).


2. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.

Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.


3. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."


4. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.


5. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.


6. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.


7. Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"


8. East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"


9. Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."


10. No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]


11. Sword of the Intellect.

It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]


12. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.

An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?


13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?


14. Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson.

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, "People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED (pbuh) was born".

[Mil]

So was 9/11 a Zionist conspiracy?

[Cato]

Welcome to the forum rexgrant

Ahmed you are 100% wrong, infact nothing you have said is true.

[Yala]

Ahmed, to start off with I will say that I don't think Islam is a religion of violence. Texts written 1500 years ago that may or may not be written by man can be interpreted in many ways. Some wish to view the Jihad as an internal struggle and some wish to view it as a violent struggle against infidels. But I digress.
I believe that a small percentage of people who practice Islam are violent. But remember that a small percentage of 1.5 billion people is a hell of a lot of people. And yes, let's not be dishonest, much like Christianity in the old days, Islam was spread by the sword. Not everywhere, but in many places. Like in Persia(Iran) for example.

Now to address some of your quotes:

"You talk about suicide bombings, plz. go thru the facts which creates a suicide bomber, you will get the answer. "

Did the 9/11 bombers grow up in Gaza or Judea or Samaria under Israeli watch? Were they poor? The answer is no. Most of them were from Saudi Arabia and grew up in middle class homes. There is no conclusive information that points to "the facts which creates a suicide bomber." Suicide bombers come from all walks of life. Some were raised religious, some were not, some were poor, some were rich. They cross all lines.


"Can you tell me a single moral or legal right for zionists which makes them legal to capture someones land ?"

Can you give me a single, legitimate reason for Pakistan to be seperate from India? Can you give me a legitimate reason for the deaths in Kashmir.



"13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?"


Wrong about America. Puff peices in the NY Times about people converting aside, after 9/11 you will have found that a lot of people turned away from Islam. Only 2% of America's population is Muslim and many are not practicing.

About Europe, it is probably correct. Around 10% of Europe's population is Muslim. Muslim immigrants are coming in the by hundreds of thousands to Europe. The question is which sword is forcing Muslims to flee Muslim countries.

I look forward to your reply.

[rexgrant]

Dear Rex, the utterly misconception about Islam which non-muslim scholars loves to talk in their debates is that the Islam spread by the sword. You got the same view about Islam. Here's some facts for you to correct your concepts before talking about Islam.

You talk about suicide bombings, plz. go thru the facts which creates a suicide bomber, you will get the answer. And you are surely not the one who can decide that someone will go in heaven or hell, right ?

Can you tell me a single moral or legal right for zionists which makes them legal to capture someones land
.


2. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.

Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.





With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:



Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, "People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED (pbuh) was born".

Hi again Ahmed.
No Ahmed I am not the one who decides who will go to heaven or hell.
But the god who gave his first laws with the name (I Am) said (though shall not Kill.) and he said that if the people who were created in is image did not follow the law they would go to Hell and to go out and cripple and kill defenceless people with suicide bombers then all who call for their use should also go to hell.
Islam was spread by both war and trade,as the Arab tribes were overun in Arabia first by the Prophit Mohamed and then by Abu Bakr,then they went out and conquered Egypt,Iran,Morocco and spain, agreed they did not hold the point of the sword to anyones throat and say convert, but as we all know it is best to do what the conquerers of your country want.
As for Israels right to have its own state in the Holyland it is their birthright,they were there at the begining,and they will be there at the end.
whether there is peace inbetween,that is up to the Muslim religion and the Arabs that live around them.
That Ahmed is the way this ageing Englishman see's it there is nothing wrong with Islam it is the way a small percentage of its followers misuse the wording of the Holy Quran.
Best regards Ahmed.
Rex

[MGB8]

Ahmed, your post is complete PR spin, and has little to do with truth.

First, Islam means "submission" (to G-d), NOT peace. The fact that the roots of the words are related does not mean that they mean the same thing.

Second, Islam WAS spread by the sword, and its well documented. The Armies of the Caliphates conquered land and instituted Sharia law. Thus, for pagans, it was CONVERT OR DIE, and for people of the book, it was be a second class citizens and pay the Jizya and be dominated, or CONVERT. Coersion.

That's why Islam punishes converting out with... DEATH. Still. Today.

In fact, as I was posting in another thread, I think the biggest thing that the West can do to both help the Muslim world, and also to help itself, and maybe ultimately help Islam itself, is to clearly offer Muslims world wide the ALTERNATIVE OF CONVERTING OUT!

Islam has been turned by thousands of Imams into a nihilistic religion, which exaults death and martyrdom and is mostly about excessive pride. This has destroyed the cultures and lives of Millions, from the Pal Arabs trapped by Hamas, to the Lebanese trapped by Hezbollah, to the Iraqis killing each other to the Persians dominated by the Mullahs wasting their national wealth to the Taliban.

How many of these people really want to belong to a religion that prides itself on "loving death as much as the Jews/Christians love life?"

I know many Arabs and Persians here in the states. That is not how they live their lives. They love life, and they I believe would be much more attracted to a religion that also cherishes life and joy and love and goodness above all things, and is not so distracted with imposing Sharia and all the that comes with a religion that many are keeping stuck in the 7th century.

Give people a choice to GET OUT OF ISLAM. Maybe Islam will respond to some open competition by changing to attract adherents, as opposed to coercsing people through violence (but there will be violence).

[The Israeli Guy]

go thru the facts which creates a suicide bomber, you will get the answer.

Only a Muslim can say that. How hypocrite..

And the answer for AhmedH's question is: Nothing but pure hate to everybody who aren't Muslims.

[AhmedH]

MG8, literal meaning is submission but spritual meaning is peace, "PEACE FOR ALL".

Islam spread by sword? Have you really read what I wrote before, Plz. go thru them, and answer them to yourself, no fact could be neglected just by saying "I dont agree" or something is well documented, crusades are also well documented and how many crusaders killed innocent in the name of religion ? its in millions buddy. Ok, Just count the innocent killings in last decades, you will find its not muslims who killed millions of innocent human or become reason for their death, those murderers are all non-muslims. I dont call them jew or christians cuz they are not the real followers, they are just like animals who have no religion, they are following their own man made rules based on hyppocracy and selfishness, they have changed their own scriptures and put some in them. Rex, thou shall not kill is the most incomplete commandment and as all the other book has been changed, this sentence must have been changed many times as per requirement :S, as you were advising me to change the wordings of Quran, cuz you are lacking the real truth and am sure never read Quran which shows the best way to live a balanced life. Quran teaches us clearly whom to kill or whom to not. Most of the civilized societies today accepts that there must be some governing law against such people either to kill them or no ... not like jesus saying Thou shall not kill and leave the murderer or rapist alive.

this life is so temporary, whoever is loving this worldly life is bluffing himself like he/she will never die ? ok love your life, drink wine, commit adultery, kill innocent people in Iraq or arab, this is what Jesus taught us right ? Did Moses or Jesus loved their lives like today christians or jews do ? Moses fought war against Amalekite whereas writer says about war in the old testament: its so confusing and unacceptable for normal human being. copied from http://biblia.com/jesusbible/joshua3d.htm

The Christian should act the way Jesus told Peter: Put your sword back in its place", because Jesus will bring the sword, Jesus will take care of you (Mat.26:52).

What the Christian has to do?:
Just trust in Jesus, and do the little things a Christian should do, like the servants in the Cana wedding of Jn.2: To put the "water" when what is needed is "wine"... to love the enemy, to pray for him, to serve, to help him to go to Heaven... just "water"... and Jesus will do the miracle, the "water" of defeat will be converted into the "wine" of victory...and the best victory!.
Do your bests and then trust in God, it is the formula that never fails.

Now you and your governments should start loving and praying for enemies from today if you are real christian or jew ... right ? water of defeat will convert into wine, believe it if you are christian or jew. IF YOU ARE CHRISTIAN OR JEW!

Rex, you are still saying that its their birthright and how come ... prove it ? dont tell me that if my ancestors lived somewhere 2000 years ago, I have birthright to live there and push the current inhibitant away from his house just cuz its my birthright or tell them lets live together in the same house.

Or dont tell me its written in scripture, I will ask that in those unauthenticated scriptures which have been changed thousand of times ? If you are going to Quote Quran for this, plz read the whole story before and after those versus, am sure you will not mention it Peace is not depending on Arabs, there was no war against anyone for centuries from Arabs until this Israel or zionist movement took place.

Yala, the purpose of Jihad was never to spread religion, it was to help the supressed and innocent human who were being torchured and murdered by their tyrant rulers and their armies, so the Muslims went their to help them out and with the help of Allah they won even they were in thousands only against the armies of millions. When muslims entered into the holy land after the remarkable victories againts tyrant rulers of Rome and Iran, the citizens of those cities including holy land were waiting for Muslims as they were been told in their scriptures that someone like muslims and their caliphs will come and will give them peaceful life regardless with the full freedom of religion and other rituals. And, muslims did it. I agree, some of later muslim rulers became the lovers of life and forget the real essence of Islam, so you can see their wrathed ends also.

Yala, if I say those planes on 911 were remote controlled and US government has lied thru out, will you believe as I dont believe on US media, have u seen those 911 arab bombers with your own eyes. US government lies and kills thousand hence it is proved ... plz see the destruction of Iraq, wasnt it all proven lie ? so I dont believe what your government says about anyone, its all doubtful. Also, there is no conclusive information that those planes were hit by arabs, just pictures on television are not enuf. Isnt it the fact that 2000 jews were absent from WTC on 911 ? Isnt it the fact that 5 jews were busted dancing after the 911 ? and isnt it the fact that those 5 jews were from some israeli secret agency ? isnt it the fact that Osama bin laden is US made militant ? and taliban were US made militants against soviet union ? isnt it the fact that Afghanistan was all bombed without any solid proofs and just on assumptions ? Isnt it the fact that govt. of america reached no conclusion after 5 years even ? But its a fact that no muslim could do 911 in the name of Allah cuz its never been commanded in this way.

Pakistan seprated from India ? No, plz read the history, before 1947, whole India was ruled by britishers. By 1947, after long debates between three of those nations, it was decided to vote for the country, whichever area would be voted more by muslims will goto muslims and vice versa. That partition was by vote not by force and was with consensus of all three nations, whereas in case of Arab-Israel, there is no consensus from first place.

Take cares.

[AhmedH]

First, Islam means "submission" (to G-d), NOT peace. The fact that the roots of the words are related does not mean that they mean the same thing.

Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.

[The Israeli Guy]

Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.

Islam is heresy in the covenant between God and Noach and his children aka The 7 laws of Noach.

Mohamad was a Noachide but he betrayed that covenant and wanted to create a new law for the Arab tribes that he wanted to unite. He or his family members took the Torah which was given to 3 millions of children of Israel, 2000 years before his time and distorted and changed it. Islam claim that Mohamad met angel Gabriel who gave him the Quran. How many people saw Mohamad meeting angel Gabriel? Nobody!

Islam claim that Mohamad flew on a "magic" horse from Mecca to Jerusalem. How many people saw that? Nobody!

How would you feel if I'll write a "holly" book which says that you owe me 100$ and and if not then I'll kill you?

Islam forced millions of Noachides to believe in his nonsence.

In the future there will be no Islam in the world. The Muslims will abandon this nonsence and will return to fulfil the 7 laws of Noach.

Islam is a religion of peace and Islam will kill you to prove it!

[rexgrant]

MG8, literal meaning is submission but spritual meaning is peace, "PEACE FOR ALL".

Islam spread by sword? Have you really read what I wrote before, Plz. go thru them, and answer them to yourself, no fact could be neglected just by saying "I dont agree" or something is well documented, crusades are also well documented and how many crusaders killed innocent in the name of religion ? its in millions buddy. Ok, Just count the innocent killings in last decades, you will find its not muslims who killed millions of innocent human or become reason for their death, those murderers are all non-muslims. I dont call them jew or christians cuz they are not the real followers, they are just like animals who have no religion, they are following their own man made rules based on hyppocracy and selfishness, they have changed their own scriptures and put some in them. Rex, thou shall not kill is the most incomplete commandment and as all the other book has been changed, this sentence must have been changed many times as per requirement :S, as you were advising me to change the wordings of Quran, cuz you are lacking the real truth and am sure never read Quran which shows the best way to live a balanced life. Quran teaches us clearly whom to kill or whom to not. Most of the civilized societies today accepts that there must be some governing law against such people either to kill them or no ... not like jesus saying Thou shall not kill and leave the murderer or rapist alive.

this life is so temporary, whoever is loving this worldly life is bluffing himself like he/she will never die ? ok love your life, drink wine, commit adultery, kill innocent people in Iraq or arab, this is what Jesus taught us right ? Did Moses or Jesus loved their lives like today christians or jews do ? Moses fought war against Amalekite whereas writer says about war in the old testament: its so confusing and unacceptable for normal human being. copied from http://biblia.com/jesusbible/joshua3d.htm

The Christian should act the way Jesus told Peter: Put your sword back in its place", because Jesus will bring the sword, Jesus will take care of you (Mat.26:52).

What the Christian has to do?:
Just trust in Jesus, and do the little things a Christian should do, like the servants in the Cana wedding of Jn.2: To put the "water" when what is needed is "wine"... to love the enemy, to pray for him, to serve, to help him to go to Heaven... just "water"... and Jesus will do the miracle, the "water" of defeat will be converted into the "wine" of victory...and the best victory!.
Do your bests and then trust in God, it is the formula that never fails.

Now you and your governments should start loving and praying for enemies from today if you are real christian or jew ... right ? water of defeat will convert into wine, believe it if you are christian or jew. IF YOU ARE CHRISTIAN OR JEW!

Rex, you are still saying that its their birthright and how come ... prove it ? dont tell me that if my ancestors lived somewhere 2000 years ago, I have birthright to live there and push the current inhibitant away from his house just cuz its my birthright or tell them lets live together in the same house.

Or dont tell me its written in scripture, I will ask that in those unauthenticated scriptures which have been changed thousand of times ? If you are going to Quote Quran for this, plz read the whole story before and after those versus, am sure you will not mention it Peace is not depending on Arabs, there was no war against anyone for centuries from Arabs until this Israel or zionist movement took place.

Yala, the purpose of Jihad was never to spread religion, it was to help the supressed and innocent human who were being torchured and murdered by their tyrant rulers and their armies, so the Muslims went their to help them out and with the help of Allah they won even they were in thousands only against the armies of millions. When muslims entered into the holy land after the remarkable victories againts tyrant rulers of Rome and Iran, the citizens of those cities including holy land were waiting for Muslims as they were been told in their scriptures that someone like muslims and their caliphs will come and will give them peaceful life regardless with the full freedom of religion and other rituals. And, muslims did it. I agree, some of later muslim rulers became the lovers of life and forget the real essence of Islam, so you can see their wrathed ends also.

Yala, if I say those planes on 911 were remote controlled and US government has lied thru out, will you believe as I dont believe on US media, have u seen those 911 arab bombers with your own eyes. US government lies and kills thousand hence it is proved ... plz see the destruction of Iraq, wasnt it all proven lie ? so I dont believe what your government says about anyone, its all doubtful. Also, there is no conclusive information that those planes were hit by arabs, just pictures on television are not enuf. Isnt it the fact that 2000 jews were absent from WTC on 911 ? Isnt it the fact that 5 jews were busted dancing after the 911 ? and isnt it the fact that those 5 jews were from some israeli secret agency ? isnt it the fact that Osama bin laden is US made militant ? and taliban were US made militants against soviet union ? isnt it the fact that Afghanistan was all bombed without any solid proofs and just on assumptions ? Isnt it the fact that govt. of america reached no conclusion after 5 years even ? But its a fact that no muslim could do 911 in the name of Allah cuz its never been commanded in this way.

Pakistan seprated from India ? No, plz read the history, before 1947, whole India was ruled by britishers. By 1947, after long debates between three of those nations, it was decided to vote for the country, whichever area would be voted more by muslims will goto muslims and vice versa. That partition was by vote not by force and was with consensus of all three nations, whereas in case of Arab-Israel, there is no consensus from first place.

Take cares.

Hi Ahamed.
You are quite right,I have not read the Bible or the Qur'an from cover to cover. Tell me Ahmed does that make me a lesser person than those that have. Yes you are quite right again on the killing in the world wars, but wrong to call it all murder. The people who started these wars were fanatics and they wanted to rule the world, the murdering side was in WW 2 where the Nazis murdered millions of Jews and other races in the name of ethnic cleaning in the Countries they Conquerd, now that must ring a bell Ahamed, as to what the Muslim world would like to do now to Israel. What they did to the curds, and this is 50years on from WW 2.
As far as the jews kicking people out of their homes I don't think you believe that Ahmad, I may not have read the Bible or the Qur'an fully but you have certainly not read the full documentation from the UN for the return of the Jewish Nation to their homeland.
As for suicide Bombers I stand by what I said.
Best regards Ahamed.
Rex.

[Yala]

"Yala, the purpose of Jihad was never to spread religion, it was to help the supressed and innocent human who were being torchured and murdered by their tyrant rulers and their armies, so the Muslims went their to help them out and with the help of Allah they won even they were in thousands only against the armies of millions. When muslims entered into the holy land after the remarkable victories againts tyrant rulers of Rome and Iran, the citizens of those cities including holy land were waiting for Muslims as they were been told in their scriptures that someone like muslims and their caliphs will come and will give them peaceful life regardless with the full freedom of religion and other rituals. And, muslims did it. I agree, some of later muslim rulers became the lovers of life and forget the real essence of Islam, so you can see their wrathed ends also.

Yala, if I say those planes on 911 were remote controlled and US government has lied thru out, will you believe as I dont believe on US media, have u seen those 911 arab bombers with your own eyes. US government lies and kills thousand hence it is proved ... plz see the destruction of Iraq, wasnt it all proven lie ? so I dont believe what your government says about anyone, its all doubtful. Also, there is no conclusive information that those planes were hit by arabs, just pictures on television are not enuf. Isnt it the fact that 2000 jews were absent from WTC on 911 ? Isnt it the fact that 5 jews were busted dancing after the 911 ? and isnt it the fact that those 5 jews were from some israeli secret agency ? isnt it the fact that Osama bin laden is US made militant ? and taliban were US made militants against soviet union ? isnt it the fact that Afghanistan was all bombed without any solid proofs and just on assumptions ? Isnt it the fact that govt. of america reached no conclusion after 5 years even ? But its a fact that no muslim could do 911 in the name of Allah cuz its never been commanded in this way. "

Would it surprise you if I told you that I personally know a person who was forced to convert to Islam? Would it surprise you if I told you of people who were killed or imprisoned in Iraq simply b/c they were Jewish? You see, I don't care what US media says or 1500 year old books. I know from people who have experienced it firsthand. If you are interested in some examples, I'd be happy to share. Afterall, knowledge is power.

Same goes for the 9/11 conspiracy. I saw tapes with my own eyes of Osama with the bombers. I saw the tapes at the airport of Mohammed Atta. Are you going to tell me there are no Islamic militants wishing death to America? My friend, the President of Iran says to hundreds of thousands "Death to America" every Friday after prayer. Do not play me for a fool. You want to believe Osama did not plan it b/c it is embarassing for Muslims to be thought of as terrorists. As I said I believe most are peaceful people but you would get more respect if you said you were ashamed of what people did in the name of Islam rather than blame Jews. And of course it is against Allah, but that doesn't mean that is the way Osama & co. see it.

And as for the 2,000 Jews not showing up to work on 9/11, well I guess I didn't get the memo b/c I was there and I will tell you every detail to prove it. Are you aware that 400 Jews out of 2000 died in the World Trade Center on 9/11? When you see names like Rosenberg on the list of the dead, do you think these are Muslim names? Now, just so we can be clear after 9/11 lots of stories started forming in the US that Muslims didn't show up for work that day b/c they knew in advance. Do you think I would ever believe such fairytales? You sound like an intelligent person so I am really surprised you would fall for the same stories about Jews, Ahmed. 2,000 Jews didn't show up to work and nobody but the Arabs in the Middle East noticed? I mean come on, you can't be serious. An article you might enjoy: http://www.slate.com/id/116813

And yes, there were 3 Israelies arrested and not 5. They were in American custody for a few weeks and then discharged. If they were a security risk they wouldn't have been let go.

Furthermore, it is true that the US financed Osama and his gang in the 80's but I don't fault them for that. How would they know he would turn against them in 20 years? They are not mind readers. Let me ask you did you ever see a movie called "Osama?" It is not about Osama Bin Laden at all, but about life under the Taliban. If this movie is available in your country I suggest you rent it.

BTW, I caught Musharraf on a comedy show the other night. Quite a charismatic guy. What do you think of him?

Cheers.

PS You forgot to answer me on Kashmir. Please do so, then we can discuss the India-Pakistan Issue.