Israeli Compulsory Military Service

[Dutch]

What do you are the social merits and demerits of Israelis being obliged to fulfill military duties?

[Dutch]

Please add 'think': 'What do you think are the...'

[sharonbn]

My opinion is:

pros
----
IDF serves as an excellent entry point for new emigrates and as a general melting pot of the Israeli society, which is an emigration society.

Military service strengthen the bond of the citizens to the country and Jewish nation.

The army provides education and profession for the lower classes, and is often last chance for these people to escape life of poverty and crime.

The army is known to be the no. 1 matchmaker in Israel.

During military service, the soldier is subjected to unique pressure and extreme conditions. These hardships help build strong character, endurance and adaptability. Generally, speaking, an Israeli 20 y.o. will show a more mature mentality to that of his American/European counterpart.

cons
-------
Because of the omnipresence of IDF, all those who did not serve are virtually excluded from society. This include the Arabs and orthodox religious Jews. This exclusion alienates these minorities and prevents them from becoming productive parts of the society.

Again, because of the omnipresence of IDF, army generals are exposed to wide media coverage to the point of becoming an Israeli celebrity. This phenomena paves the way for many generals to launch a political career once they leave the army. This include prime ministers Rabin, Netanyahu, Barak and Sharon and countless ministers and Knesset Members. Some of the generals, behave in the government and Knesset as if they’re still commanding soldiers. IMO, there are much too many army representatives in politics and too few ones from the academic world.

[Vic]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Generally, speaking, an Israeli 20 y.o. will show a more mature mentality to that of his American/European counterpart.

Definetely

[cerulean]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Because of the omnipresence of IDF, all those who did not serve are virtually excluded from society. This include the Arabs and orthodox religious Jews. This exclusion alienates these minorities and prevents them from becoming productive parts of the society.

To what extent does this exclusion affect religious women who don't serve?

[Mr. Pumps]

But the Jenin operation still shows the problem is making quick soldiers out of everyday citizensin a conscript army.

Sending in Reserves and not trained Soldiers lead to more casualities than trained soldiers would have experienced.

But I guess Israel in the situation it is in cannot change standard policy.

[richcrassus]

The IDF is compulsory for everyone except israeli arabs and hasidic jews.
I was just wondering, since all israeli arabs are all supposidly vicious backstabbers, are their any israeli arabs in the IDF? as reservists or normal soldiors or whatever?
If yes, why do you think they have joined the IDF?
thank you.

[Mediocrates]

Do you have a real question?

[richcrassus]

So what i wrote wasent a real question? I think it was, are thier any arabs in the IDF?, if so why do you think they have joined?
If thats too hard for you than too bad? or if you dont want to answer because you care what some other member might think of you, fair enough too.
I think on here you should write what you really think.
cheers.

[elke]

OK, to give you the benefit of the doubt...

There are Druze and Bedouin Arabs in the IDF, and have been from what I understand, from the very beginning. In fact, at least a couple of the attacks on IDF checkpoints have resulted in deaths of these brave people.

As to why they join up... well, you'd have to ask them, but IMHO their thinking is probably that the enemies of Israel are their enemies, since Israel is also their country. If Jews could fight in the Russian, Polish, British, US, and other armies for the country of their birth even if they were a minority there, why wouldn't the Druze and Bedouin do the same?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by richcrassus
So what i wrote wasent a real question? I think it was, are thier any arabs in the IDF?, if so why do you think they have joined?
If thats too hard for you than too bad? or if you dont want to answer because you care what some other member might think of you, fair enough too.
I think on here you should write what you really think.
cheers.

Why don't you call an early end to the weekend, leave your mama's basement find something useful to do besides trolling.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by elke
As to why they join up... well, you'd have to ask them, but IMHO their thinking is probably that the enemies of Israel are their enemies, since Israel is also their country. If Jews could fight in the Russian, Polish, British, US, and other armies for the country of their birth even if they were a minority there, why wouldn't the Druze and Bedouin do the same?

The Druze, as a strategic decision, joins whoever is currently the ruler of the country. This means that Druze living in Syria serve in the Syrian army. Druze living in Lebanon serve in the Lebanese army, etc. This "strategy" of the Druze does put a question mark on their lotyalty, since you can argue that if Israel loses the next war, the Druze might turn their back on it. However, to date, the Druze have proven themselves loyal and fierce figthers in IDF, and have paid their toll in lives defending the country from terror attacks.

The Beduin joined the IDF after 1948 war to "prove" to Israel they are not part of the Arab nation. Like the Druze, they feel they still have to "prove" their loyalty to the Jewish Israelis, so they perform their utmost when in the service.

Also, the Druze living in Golan hights consider themselves Syrian and have not joined IDF.

and a note to richcrassus:

What you said on Israeli Arabs ("all israeli arabs are all supposidly vicious backstabbers") is not only false, it smells of racism as well.

Only last weekend it was discovered that an armed Palestinian terrorist went into the largest Israeli Arab city, Um El Fachem, and sought transpotation to the locality on which he planned to bomb himself (somewhere inside Jewish Israel). Despite the fact the a third of the city adult population are members of the ultra-orthodox "Israeli Islamic Organization", the terrorist was turned down by everyone he approached!
He began his journey on foot and was detected (by an IDF Druze unit, btw) a short distance from the Arab city, he was shot down immediately.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mr. Pumps
But the Jenin operation still shows the problem is making quick soldiers out of everyday citizensin a conscript army.

Sending in Reserves and not trained Soldiers lead to more casualities than trained soldiers would have experienced.

But I guess Israel in the situation it is in cannot change standard policy.

Interesting, Pumps, You say IDf has a weak snipers unit, a puny navy and an unprofessional reserve forces. according to the picture you're painting, I find it hard to imagine how is it that IDF has won every major armed conflict in its history. The IDF also proven itself successfull in long range operations on places as far as Uganda, Tunisia and Iraq. IDf is considered worldwide as a highly motivated, highly skilled formidable force.

IDF is anytrhing BUT "conscript army", and calling it with this name is either foolishly wrong or an attempt of a manipulation of some sort.

FYI, the reserve forces are all veteran soldiers who served full active duty and are considered more professional than duty-service forces. They go on active duty for 30-45 days each year, training and upgrading their skills.

I also fail to see what criticism you have over the operation in Jenin, I think it was a successfull operation, with minimal casualties (60 Palestinians, 13 IDF soldiers) that managed to severly damage the terrorit capability of the Palestinians.

[elke]

Your explanation of the Druze and Bedouin mentality is very, very interesting, Sharon. Thank you!

[cerulean]

I agree with elke

The Circassians, also Muslim, serve in the IDF as well.

Sharonbn, what was your impression of the 2000 movie "Time of Honor" (Hahesder), at least insofar as its portrayal of the IDF, or Israeli life in general?