Israel, Iran, and the Bomb

[Aviva]

And Aviva is correct...for she is obviously better connected than I. All those writings about curses, abominations, homosexuality et. al. are taken out of context. Perhaps God was talking about bagels in all those passages.

Your attitude about this - about everything - is based on amazing ignorance. You're the worst kind of Christian, who literally reads the Bible in it's English translation and then decides what it must mean without applying any context to it whatsoever.

The Torah doesn't stand alone - the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Rabbinal writings, midrash, etc, etc all add up to the total picture. It's layers and meaning are incomprehensible without context and a lot of further study.

You're exactly the reason why I think Christians, particularly American Christians are very very misguided. Whatever message Jesus was trying to get across in the New Testament about love and forgiveness is made an absolute mockery of by people like you.

Why don't you just become a Muslim, Alfred E Neuman because your theology is simply based upon completely condeming everyone else who's different from you. Then you can merrily hate gays and Jews and even blow them up. You'd love it and you'd have the added bonus of hearing your fellow co-religionists telling you that this is really what G-d wants.

[Aviva]

I'm only responding because I'd hate for someone to come on to Israel Forum and see your nuthouse comments going unchallenged. Otherwise leave your sexual politics out of these discussions please.

Challenge, Redcake, challenge and report posts. Complain to Admin.

Alfred E Neuman adds nothing of value to discussions. Thinking that gay people should be cursed isn't a valid opinion. He's also expressed offensive views about blacks and Jews. He'll eventually get banned if he's challenged and reported enough.

[Alfred E Neuman]

The Torah doesn't stand alone - the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Rabbinal writings, midrash, etc, etc all add up to the total picture. It's layers and meaning are incomprehensible without context and a lot of further study.

For someone who claims to be well informed on Jewish history you appear to discount any action-reaction between the behavior of Israel and resultant invasions, plagues, famines etc.

Are you suggesting that ALL of the prophecies and warnings that the Jewish prophets issued over your history were bogus? How many times did your prophets warn Israel that their actions would lead to disaster? Or, are you saying that after all the rewrites of prophecy that you mention above (mishnah,talmud,rabbinal writings,midrash et. al), the result is so vanilla that anything goes?

It is relevant in that Israel appears to most people (not redcake obviously) to be in a particular time of peril.

Are you saying, eat, drink and be merry for God will protect us no matter what? Or, are you saying that the fate of Israel has nothing to do with God?

(Now, try to answer my question without insult, drama queen theatrics etc....it is a legitimate question that you should be able to tackle).

Situation:

Iran getting nukes,
Europe and most of the world turning against Israel,
Pakistan with nukes,
North Korea selling everything to anyone,
Hezbo on the north...with no one stopping them. Including the IDF
Hamas in the south

Question:

Throughout history, the Israeli prophets have drawn a direct tie between worthiness of Israel and destruction/plagues/famine/invasion. Is this tie invalid today? If so, why?

[Illuminatus]

For someone who claims to be well informed on Jewish history you appear to discount any action-reaction between the behavior of Israel and resultant invasions, plagues, famines etc.

It does not appear for a moment that Aviva made any such claim. You've creating a StrawMan

Are you suggesting that ALL of the prophecies and warnings that the Jewish prophets issued over your history were bogus?

What did the StrawMan suggest?

How many times did your prophets warn Israel that their actions would lead to disaster?

And? What about what that old prophet Ezekiel, who, writing at the time of the Babylonian captivity, declared this message for the Jewish people:

by: 'cause The Bible Tells Me So

'You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people and I will be your God.'

"For I will take you out of the nation; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back to your own land… I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you… to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness.

"I will call for the grain and make it plentiful… I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine…

"This is what the Sovereign Jehovah says, 'On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.'

"Then the nations around you that remain will know that I, Jehovah, have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I, Jehovah, have spoken, and I will do it."

Ezekiel 36:24 ff. and my my kind of "prophecies and warnings"

Or, are you saying that after all the rewrites of prophecy that you mention above (mishnah,talmud,rabbinal writings,midrash et. al), the result is so vanilla that anything goes?

Once again, another StrawMan -- you're getting desparate.

It is relevant in that Israel appears to most people (not redcake obviously) to be in a particular time of peril.

What difference does that make? If you are neither Jew, Israeli or a Friend of Israel - who honest cares?

Are you saying, eat, drink and be merry for God will protect us no matter what?

Aviva may not have - but I do. Yes God will always protect them.

Or, are you saying that the fate of Israel has nothing to do with God?

Once again, a made up "quote" so that you can engage your StrawMan.

(Now, try to answer my question without insult, drama queen theatrics etc....it is a legitimate question that you should be able to tackle).

Situation:

Iran getting nukes,
Europe and most of the world turning against Israel,
Pakistan with nukes,
North Korea selling everything to anyone,
Hezbo on the north...with no one stopping them. Including the IDF
Hamas in the south

Question: Throughout history, the Israeli prophets have drawn a direct tie between worthiness of Israel and destruction/plagues/famine/invasion.

Is this tie invalid today? If so, why?

Again, no one has said this except the StrawMan in your imagination.
---------------------------------------------------

One day in the late 19th Century, Queen Victoria of England reportedly asked her Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, this question:

"Mr. Prime Minister, what evidence can you give me of the existence of God?"

Disraeli thought for a moment and then replied, "The Jew, your majesty."
----------------------------------------------------

Aviva wrote:
[ You're the worst kind of Christian, who literally reads the Bible in it's English translation and then decides what it must mean without applying any context to it whatsoever. ]

I think you're wrong Aviva, the worst kind of Christian are people to pretend to "care" about Israel only to use that pretention to prostelatize in endless arguments ( like that cult, "Jews For Jesus"). Your best bet is to simply ignore and not engage in endless polemics.

-- A true and honest Friend of Israel doesn't need to prostelatize or create StrawMen.

The survival and success of the Jewish people is a miracle of God and that's all you need to know (period). The return of the Jewish people to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a miracle of God. The remarkable victories of Jewish armies against overwhelming odds in successive battles in 1948, and 1967, and 1973 and in the summer of 2006 are clearly miracles of God. The technological marvels of Israeli industry, the military prowess, the bounty of Israeli agriculture, the fruits and flowers and abundance of the land are a testimony to God's watchful care over this new nation and the genius of this people.

It should be noted that today Christianity, with well over two billion adherents, is by far the fastest growing religion in the world.

Within twenty years, that number will swell to three billion. 50 percent faster than Islam.

Of these, at least eight hundred million are Bible-believing evangelicals and charismatics who are ardent supporters of the nation of Israel. In twenty years, that number will reach 1.2 billion.

Israel has millions upon million of Christian friends in China, in India, in Indonesia, throughout Africa and South America, as well as North America.

' We are with you in your struggle. '

We are with you as a wave of anti-Semitism is engulfing the earth. We are with you despite the pressure of the "Quartette" and the incredibly hostile resolutions of the United Nations. We are with you despite the threats and ravings of Wahabbi Jihadists, Hezbollah thugs, and Hamas assassins.

We are with you despite oil embargos, loss of allies, and terrorist attacks on our cities (or nutcases For Jesus).

Evangelical Christians merely say to our Israeli friends:

[..Let us serve our God together by opposing the virulent poison of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that is rapidly engulfing the world...] (Ronald Reagan).

^_^

[Alfred E Neuman]

Illuminatus:

Regarding your StrawMan....I realize that Aviva did not say all that I am questioning her about. Thus I am asking a rhetorical question. One sees words such as "you appear to..." rather than "you specifically said..." I really want to know her opinion regarding past scripture and present events...especially the tie, or lack of tie between blessings and warnings.

In any case, I ask my questions much nicer than she does....and she is a brit. And as we all know I hate all jews, blacks, gays, brits, mosquitos and furry little creatures that run about at night. (Oooops, no one knew about the furry little creature part)

But you did a lot of cutting and pasting and typing to reach your strawman point; so:

You specifically said:

Originally Posted by Alfred E Neuman
Are you saying, eat, drink and be merry for God will protect us no matter what?

Originally posted by Illuninatus:

Aviva may not have - but I do. Yes God will always protect them.

That is an interesting position. Probably a position that many share. I guess we will find out. Many would draw a distinction between "protected" and "preserved." Something can be preserved but not very well protected in the process.


I do like your quote from Ezekiel: (by the way. Is this the "authorized" version of Ezekiel that Aviva would approve of?? You know there are all the other post Ezekiel writings that may change everything you have quoted....and Christians never understand the nuance of ancient Hebrew scripture)

"For I will take you out of the nation; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back to your own land… I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you… to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness."

I would like to ask you your analysis of what Ezekiel means by "to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

In other writings there are conditions set by the prophets. If God gives you A you must follow his laws or B will take place.

In any case. It is my position that Israel has been given a tremendous blessing to be restored in these last days....which we probably agree on. My position is that this comes with conditions and that the religious in Israel see those conditions and are trying to make sure that some of the bad things prophecized will not happen. Cause and effect.

Iran is a potential "very bad thing" that could happen.

[shery]

Iran Iran Iran

Well well well

Every one thing that USA dont plan anymore to attack iran
which is not true

Iran and pakistan one of the 2 important countries to USA and England

and they have no aims but them in the moment

the thing is that USA trying to collect more information about iran before attacking them

because they got information that most of the iranian troops wouldnt fight as a regular army

but all the troops been trainned on guerilas wars

which annoy the americans too much
because they are positive that the war in iran wouldnt be easy at iraq

cuz breaking the current government and find traitors inside isnt easy as iraq

and I applaud for iran that they are refusing any kind of organization to watch their nuclear programs

all the international communities aims to collect more information by sending those people inside iran

and iran is so smart to never let them in ... ( bravo iran )


every muslims nd every arab should be aware that we are in their agenda
and they dont want peace in middle east

they want to wipe all kind of resistance idealogy in middle east
so we become slave for their pervert culture

and that wont happen inshallah .

[Aviva]

For someone who claims to be well informed on Jewish history you appear to discount any action-reaction between the behavior of Israel and resultant invasions, plagues, famines etc.

Are you suggesting that ALL of the prophecies and warnings that the Jewish prophets issued over your history were bogus? How many times did your prophets warn Israel that their actions would lead to disaster? Or, are you saying that after all the rewrites of prophecy that you mention above (mishnah,talmud,rabbinal writings,midrash et. al), the result is so vanilla that anything goes?

It is relevant in that Israel appears to most people (not redcake obviously) to be in a particular time of peril.

Jewish history is not for you to pass judgements on, Alfred E Neuman because you have no comprehension of what you're talking about. Your understanding about this - about everything - is medieval and one-dimensional. You've only ever read the Bible in translation. Much of what you bring up is discussed in other Jewish texts like the Talmud. The Bible is not always to be understood literally. If it were then adulterers and rebellious children would be put to death by Torah observant Jews.

(Now, try to answer my question without insult, drama queen theatrics etc....it is a legitimate question that you should be able to tackle).

You're clearly an anti-semite. It's obvious to anyone who's read your posts on this forum. There's very little point in trying to explain Judaism to you or involving you in discussion about this subject. Why can't you just stick to your own small minded interpretation of Christianity and leave Judaism to Jews.

[Aviva]

I think you're wrong Aviva, the worst kind of Christian are people to pretend to "care" about Israel only to use that pretention to prostelatize in endless arguments ( like that cult, "Jews For Jesus"). Your best bet is to simply ignore and not engage in endless polemics.

Fair enough.

I'm wary of all Christians these days, to be honest. I think it's a religion that has anti-semitism as it's basic principle (ie: that Jews messed up in the "Old Testament" but now the Christians have taken over as the Chosen People).

Alfred E Neuman's Christianity is very clearly based on this kind of belief about the Jews. He's integrally an anti-Semite and couldn't conceive of a Christianity that didn't look down on Jews and see them as sinners.

However friendly some Christians are towards Israel they still believe that when Jesus comes again all the Jews will convert and recognise him as the Messiah. So they ultimately seek the end of Judaism, however nicely they put it.

[Alfred E Neuman]

Jewish history is not for you to pass judgements on, Alfred E Neuman because you have no comprehension of what you're talking about. Your understanding about this - about everything - is medieval and one-dimensional. You've only ever read the Bible in translation. Much of what you bring up is discussed in other Jewish texts like the Talmud. The Bible is not always to be understood literally. If it were then adulterers and rebellious children would be put to death by Torah observant Jews.

I am not passing judgement. I am asking your opinion as one who appears to understand the multi-dimensional world of Jewish scripture.

Question:

Throughout history, the Israeli prophets have drawn a direct tie between worthiness of Israel and destruction/plagues/famine/invasion. Is this tie invalid today? If so, why?

[Alfred E Neuman]

However friendly some Christians are towards Israel they still believe that when Jesus comes again all the Jews will convert and recognise him as the Messiah. So they ultimately seek the end of Judaism, however nicely they put it.

I honestly believe that Jesus could down from the sky, destroy all the invaders of Israel, say he is the Messiah and there will still be a large proportion of your people who would not accept what he says.

So fear not...you will always have freedom to choose what you believe in.

(And unless you convert Christianity in the next year, Jesus will not come...so again, you are safe)

[Aviva]

I am not passing judgement. I am asking your opinion as one who appears to understand the multi-dimensional world of Jewish scripture.

Question:

Throughout history, the Israeli prophets have drawn a direct tie between worthiness of Israel and destruction/plagues/famine/invasion. Is this tie invalid today? If so, why?

The Prophets were preaching at a specific time in history. Their prophesies aren't meant to be taken out of context and re-hashed and re-interpreted by Christians who want to prove that Jesus is the Messiah or that the book of Revelations has some relevance to the Jews or whatever you're trying to prove. You're clutching at straws trying to create meaning out of something that has no conection with what you believe as a Christian. In the Jewish Bible, the book of Prophets doesn't come at the end of the Tanakh - it comes in the middle of it. Christians place far more stress on it than Jews do.

To the Jews, prophesy ended with Malachi. The Jews don't accept any Prophets or prophesies that come after him and also, as I said earlier, why do you automatically assume that everything is so utterly literal in the Bible? Scripture is intended to be spiritual, not necessarily historical, as we understand the word "historical".

To me, your question has little validity. Israel is a modern state - it isn't the Torah observant community that the Bible portrays. That's not to say that G-d doesn't still consider the Jews to be His Chosen People. Everything can't be dissected in quite the way you want it to be. Also, every question in Judaism has a more than one correct answer to it anyway. Everything is up for debate. Unlike Christianity, we don't have so many dogmas.

[Aviva]

I honestly believe that Jesus could down from the sky, destroy all the invaders of Israel, say he is the Messiah and there will still be a large proportion of your people who would not accept what he says.

So fear not...you will always have freedom to choose what you believe in.

(And unless you convert Christianity in the next year, Jesus will not come...so again, you are safe)

Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah because he simply does not fit the profile of the Jewish Messiah. It's as simple as that. Read Maimonides.

To Christians he can be whatever you want him to be but to Jews, Jesus was considered to be a magician, like David Copperfield or David Blaine, (and both are also Jewish).

[Alfred E Neuman]

Good enough. Thank you for your answers.

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I bet the Iranians are closely watching the election today in the US.